July 13, 2023 • 35 mins
Rabbi Eliana Fischel might not claim the title "The Cool Rabbi" (or think it very likely any rabbi would), but the Washington Hebrew Congregation Associate Rabbi does a lot of the fun stuff. She runs the young professionals group, works with LGBTQ and Jews of Color cohorts, and is involved in something like 40 conversions a year.
Who knew there were so many!? Well, no one, unless the convert themself chooses to talk about it. Rabbi Fischel explains why, and gives some insight into what she's witnessed in many of these deeply personal journeys. She busts some myths we grew up with (are we really turning converts away three times?), gives insight and identifies some of the trends she's seen and learned about over the years of helping people find themselves, and their Jewish soul.
Don’t worry, you won’t come out of this a shiny new Jew, or have any Sunday school flashbacks (unless you liked Sunday School?), but we’ll have a few laughs, and hit some of the nuts and bolts and basic questions you probably have about conversion....or, at least, that I had.
GLOSSARY
Minhag: A tradition that through long accepted use and custom has taken on an importance and force almost as strongly as law.
Goy/goyish: non-Jew and non-Jewish (adjective), respectively.
Israel: The word, meaning "to struggle with God," was bestowed on the biblical character Jacob as his new name after wrestling with an angel all night in a match that left him permanently injured. In Judaism, it is used to refer the Jewish people, “Am Yisrael," meaning People of Israel, and the Land, "Eretz Yisrael."
Bubbe: Also spelled "bobe," Yiddish for "grandmother."
Seder: From the Hebrew word meaning "order," the ceremonial meal that takes place at Passover and is conducted in a specific order alongside the retelling of the story of the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt. The ritual meal is believed by many to have been Jesus' Last Supper in Christianity, and Passover takes place in the spring, generally very near Easter.
Links:
https://www.reformjudaism.org/
https://www.whctemple.org/learn/adult-learning/classes/12-jewish-questions/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rabbi Fischel (00:00):
One of the books I always assign is To Life by
Harold Kushner, and I reread itevery few years And every time I
read it by the end of the bookI'm like God, I should convert
to Judaism.
This thing is great, so Irecommend for that book.
It's a little dated but it'sbeautiful, yeah.
Hannah Gaber (00:15):
Welcome to Jew-ish .
The show for Jews, non-Jews,the Jew- curious, just all the
varieties of Jewishness.
If you've been listening so far, you've heard a name come up
again and again, but until nowyou have not gotten to hear her
voice.
I'm talking about Rabbi ElianaFischel of Washington Hebrew
congregation.
Rabbi Fischel jumped on boardwith the show really early on
(00:39):
and has been super supportiveand instrumental in hooking me
up with some of the voicesyou've already heard, or that
you will hear, or that you'll goback and hear, ahem.
But today it's her turn.
I'm bringing her in at thispoint in our conversion
miniseries to bust some mythsand give a little gravitas to
what we've talked about so far.
We'll have a few laughs, we'llhit some of the nuts and bolts
(01:01):
and basic questions you probablyhave about conversion-- Or, ok,
fine, that I had aboutconversion.
And, as always, don't forget tocheck the show notes on this
and every episode.
For a glossary of terms youmight hear.
K.
Here's the show.
Rabbi Fischel (01:19):
So, hi, I am Rabbi Eliana Fischel.
I am an associate rabbi atWashington Hebrew congregation
in Washington DC and in Potomac,Maryland.
I've been a rabbi here for fiveyears.
I am a graduate of Hebrew UnionCollege Jewish Institute of
Religion, which is the ReformJewish seminary.
I was in the New York campus.
(01:40):
And here at Washington Hebrew,I run 2239, which is our 20s and
30s young professionalcommunity, as well as some
communities for new moms andpregnant women and an LGBTQ
cohort, Jews of color cohort,and I spend a lot of time with
our teens.
Hannah Gaber (01:59):
That is a lot.
So basically, you're the coolyoung rabbi is where we're at.
Rabbi Fischel (02:04):
Cool is a relative term when rabbi is
followed by it.
But sure, sure, You're therabbi for the young kids I don't
know about that I don't knowabout that.
Hannah Gaber (02:11):
Well, ok, so we're here today because you were
very enthusiastic in myquestions about conversion And I
know that it's a little bitdifferent for reform Jews And
that's, I guess I said the sectand my mom corrected me What
does it call?
It's not called a sect inJudaism.
It's called a sect or adenomination, denomination,
(02:31):
strain or stream.
I think she said too.
I don't know.
Anyway, lots of words, yeah,it's all good.
So I grew up always hearingthat there that first of all,
judaism does not proselytizeLike it's forbidden from doing
that.
We don't go out and solicitpeople to join.
That's just not a thing Jews do.
But I've also heard or I wasalso raised hearing that you're
(02:53):
actually supposed to turnconverts away the first three
times that they ask ostensiblybecause being the chosen people
is actually a huge burden orwhatever it is.
Is that real?
Is that true?
Do we still do that Like?
do you know where that comes?
Rabbi Fischel (03:08):
from Sure.
So the image I have of Jewsturning away a potential convert
three times is Charlotte fromSex in the City When she shows
up with platters of food andshe's like, please, I just want
to be Jewish.
So I think that's probably how Iwas introduced to it when I was
a kid, but for one, that's just.
That's a minchag.
Which is a minchag is a custom.
(03:28):
There's no law that says youhave to say no to someone who
wants to join Judaism.
Off of a little bit of research, it seems like it's coming from
the book of Ruth, where Naomitold Ruth to turn away.
Three times Ruth kept sayingNaomi I'm going to come with you
, i'm going to come with you.
And Naomi said no, go away,like go live your life, and said
(03:52):
it three times.
And so there's perhaps aconnection there.
But this is really coming fromcustom And I think it has helped
in ways to make Judaism feelelusive and to feel elite.
But actually the Reform Judaismsteered clear of that in the
1990s.
In the 1990s we took a big push.
The Union for Reform Judaismdid this explicitly, saying
(04:13):
actually we really love what wehave to offer And Judaism is
pretty amazing And it gives alot of meaning.
It gives a lot of spiritualityto people's lives And we think
we have it pretty great.
And so, while we're not goingto go out and proselytize, we're
certainly going to tell peoplehow great we think we are and
how great Judaism is, anddefinitely someone who wants to
join our faith, absolutely we'regoing to welcome them with open
arms And we are not going tomake any more barriers than
(04:36):
already necessary to becomeJewish And that also goes for
interfaith families as well thatanyone who wants to join our
faith, as someone who is Jewishadjacent to a partner is going
to be welcomed with open arms aswell.
We're not going to put upbarriers to make that more
difficult for them.
Hannah Gaber (04:53):
I love that.
That's so fun And I'm so happythat you said Jewish adjacent,
because I think even my friendsoften, once they start to get
curious or ask me questionsabout my life, they even start
to, I think, think of themselvesas Jewish adjacent which is
lovely and sweet, and I wasalways raised to be like, oh
yeah, i mean I have, as in mostplaces there's not a ton of
(05:13):
Jewish people around,numerically.
So yeah, all my Goyesh friends,come join me for Hanukkah and
come for a Seder And I'll makeyou salmon, because you're a
pescatarian And they love allthat stuff.
But so that does raise thequestion so is there an official
process, like do you have to?
Is it becoming Jewish?
like getting a degree, do youhave to take certain classes and
(05:33):
then you're in, or can you sortof self-identify as Jewish and
then, ta-da, you're Jewish.
Rabbi Fischel (05:38):
So The process to become Jewish is different
depending on the sective Judaismthat you're in, and even
different depending on thecongregation you're in, and even
different depending on therabbi that you're working with.
So at Washington Hebrew we doaround 40 conversions a year
which most of our congregationdoesn't really know about.
(05:59):
So we take conversion reallyseriously that it's up to the
person who's converting to sortof share that with everybody.
we're never gonna share whowe're working with.
Hannah Gaber (06:08):
It's like personal right.
It's like kind of a private,intimate thing.
Rabbi Fischel (06:11):
It's really personal and in our tradition it
says actually that you're notsupposed to publicize a convert,
because once they become Jewish, they are as Jewish as Moses,
as Jewish as you and me, andshould never be sort of asked
when they became Jewish.
So that would be seen as sortof inappropriate or
disrespectful right.
No, no, no, they were at Sinai,just like I was.
(06:31):
Yeah, so the way that we thinkabout conversion is actually
that you've always had a Jewishsoul.
We're just giving it a littlebit of like, light and water and
watching it grow.
That's from.
Those are words from my amazingcolleague, rabbi Aaron Miller,
that I use all the time.
That's so nice, what an image,yeah, really beautiful.
(06:52):
And so what we do here atWashington Hebrew is it's a
really personalized study thattakes about a year.
They meet with a rabbi orcanter once a month for almost
an entire year.
We assign or what I do is Iassign a book at every meeting.
I sort of have a list that I gothrough, going from the most
general to more specifics, andthen, as a student gets involved
(07:13):
, they start asking their ownquestions and I give them books
that personalize to them.
I also assign an experiencethat being Jewish is so much
more than belief or faith orwhat we think.
It's really about behavior,right, that's why we're not
really a religion, we're notreally an ethnicity, we're not
really a culture, we're kind ofeverything in between, yeah, and
so I don't think you can reallybecome Jewish unless you've
tried lighting Shabbat candles,unless you've tried some version
(07:35):
of kosher, unless you've triedsome version of adult study and
Torah study.
And what I say to my studentsis I don't expect you to do this
as a Jew all the time, right,because I don't want to give
higher expectations to you thanmy typical Joju congregant, but
I do expect you to try it and tosee what's meaningful for you
and to see what sticks, and soeach month they get these
(07:56):
assignments and we talk aboutthem together.
Also, those meetings are alsopretty pastoral.
I'm not a counselor, but theytake on that role too, because
it's a huge identity shift Andespecially to take on a minority
identity is really challengingsometimes, especially when
people are coming from familiesof different faiths or families
of no faith, and how do youapproach those conversations?
(08:18):
So a lot of the meetings arelike that as well.
We also highly recommend thatthey take a class we provide
called 12 Jewish Questions,which is a version of
introduction to Judaism but isfor everybody.
It's for people who arestarting a Jewish journey, but
also people who are reconnectingto their Judaism as an adult.
So we have congregants in therewho are like 80 and have never
(08:41):
studied before but just retiredand want to learn about Judaism,
as well as people who are juststarting on their Jewish path.
It's a wonderful course Andthen at the end of all this sort
of around the 10-month mark, wehave a conversation that's like
how do you feel?
And before that, at any point,if someone says you know, i
actually think this isn't for megreat.
They haven't wasted my time.
(09:02):
The point is for people to findtheir place and their
spirituality and their religion.
I'm not in the business ofmaking Jews right.
We don't proselytize.
Hannah Gaber (09:10):
We're not selling you something I'm not selling
them anything.
Rabbi Fischel (09:13):
If it's not right , it's not right.
I do ask them not to ghost me.
Hannah Gaber (09:16):
I'm like if you could just let me know that
you're going to go.
Rabbi Fischel (09:18):
Sometimes they do , but it's okay.
And then we decide to bringthem to Bate Deen.
So Bate Deen sounds reallyintimidating And I always try to
say that it's not Technically,it's a court.
So it's three reallyintimidating.
Hannah Gaber (09:33):
Bate Deen means house of religion, right.
Rabbi Fischel (09:36):
House of judgment , So it's literally the words
you use for a court And it'sthree highly educated Jews.
So we always use three clergyor our education staff And it's
really for us, it's really justa conversation.
We're not quizzing people.
We are just talking to themabout their spiritual journey
and their Jewish journey,Questions that would have been
(09:56):
really hard a year before butnow actually are just part and
parcel of their life, rightAbout how they engage with their
life, how their relationshipwith God, their relationship
with holidays, theirrelationship with Shabbat, what
they struggle with.
Hannah Gaber (10:08):
What would be like an example question?
Rabbi Fischel (10:12):
An example question would be how has your
relationship with God changedfrom before this process to now,
and what do you sort of hopefor your relationship with God
in the future?
Another question would be youknow you've learned a ton over
the past year classes, books,whatever.
What have you loved?
What have you like?
Yes, that is what I want.
And what are you still reallystruggling with?
Because part of being Jewish istaking on this name, yisrael,
(10:33):
which means to struggle with God.
We love a struggle, so what doyou struggle with?
Hannah Gaber (10:37):
We really do.
Rabbi Fischel (10:38):
Why do we like this?
So what are you struggling with?
After that, batey and we takethem, they also have to write
sorry, they have to write aspiritual autobiography or a
personal statement as part ofthat as well.
We then take them to the mikvahat Yisrael.
here in Washington DC has abeautiful, beautiful mikvah and
they immerse three times andthen we do a welcome ceremony
(11:00):
for them And, as we say, theycome out of that water and they
are as Jewish as anyone.
Hannah Gaber (11:06):
Wow, i feel like I don't know.
Maybe you've heard this before.
I hope not.
Maybe probably.
I feel like almost that thepeople who have done that sort
of formal education like oh shit, are they more Jewish than me?
Cause.
I don't know the other, like Ihave not, Although I sit here
saying that and I'm like Ihaven't had those conversations.
Then it's like, okay, but theyall didn't have to learn Hebrew
and then stand in front of acongregation and like forget
(11:28):
half of their Torah portion Andchant Torah when you're 13 and
so awkward.
Rabbi Fischel (11:31):
Oh the misery, the worst, the worst, so,
actually.
so most of our conversions areactually not part of a couple,
but the ones that are right,where they are engaged or going
to be married or very seriouswith someone who is Jewish.
We always talk to the Jewishpartner and I always say you're
about to become 10 times moreJewish than you ever imagined,
(11:51):
because so many Jews sort ofleave their Judaism in a
pediatric realm right, they dothe really embarrassing thing of
standing up there at the Bemaat age 13 and then never really
come back to it.
And then here is this partnerthat they love, who's engaging
with Judaism in an adult way,with really intense questions
and not just like learning aboutJudaism separate from ourselves
(12:12):
, like a graduate program, right, but really about like, what
does it mean for us and for meand for how I'm growing, and
that is gonna engage you in adifferent way.
And so, yes, we're creatinglots of Jews, but also we're
creating lots of a lot moreadult Jews.
Hannah Gaber (12:26):
More Jewish Jews, more Jewish Jews, more Jewish.
Rabbi Fischel (12:28):
Jews for sure.
Hannah Gaber (12:30):
Well, that is so cool And it's like I never
really thought about it reallyin that way, although and
honestly you know, it was myfriend Nancy who made me think
about it.
Like I got her the Jewish bookof why for Hanukkah a couple of
years ago And then I was like,ooh, i maybe should also have a
copy of this.
I bought myself one too, yeah,yeah.
And, like you know, maybe Ihaven't opened it or whatever,
we'll see, maybe I will thisyear, any day might be the day
(12:51):
Yeah.
Rabbi Fischel (12:51):
Who's to say.
One of the books I alwaysassign is to life by Harold
Kushner, and I reread it everyfew years And every time I read
it by the end of the book I'mlike God I should convert to
Judaism.
This thing is great, so Irecommend for that book.
It's a little dated but it'sbeautiful That sounds awesome.
Okay, I'll put that on my listof things to do, my ever-growing
list as I go through thispodcast process.
Hannah Gaber (13:10):
Absolutely, so that is really cool, so it's not
.
You know you can't fail outright, like you don't get to the
bait din and then answer theirquestions wrong and they're like
get out.
Rabbi Fischel (13:18):
No, certainly not .
We would never.
I would never bring anyone tobait din who I wasn't sure was
gonna was good to go.
Hannah Gaber (13:28):
You mentioned that people obviously come from all
different backgrounds and faiths.
Is there like a specific or aparticular like faith or
background?
you see a lot of Like.
Do you see like?
are they 90% Catholic?
Are they 90% Episcopalians?
You know what I mean.
Like, I'm so curious, Yeah.
Rabbi Fischel (13:42):
I would say I have no numbers for you.
This is just what I see in myoffice is that the majority, if
they come from a faith, themajority are coming from
Catholic.
Hannah Gaber (13:51):
Interesting From Catholicism Is that because of
that, you know, we share theshame.
Basis of that.
Rabbi Fischel (13:57):
It's a little bit .
It's more that they really loveritual but don't love dogma,
and so that's where you getliberal Judaism right.
It's like we understand ancienttradition, we understand
ancient ritual and how powerfulit is and we don't wanna put it
aside, we wanna put it at theforefront and we're not going to
(14:17):
mandate that your religioncontradicts the life that you
lead, and so I think that'sprobably why we get that
background so much.
And then not a faith, but hugemajority are coming from the
LGBT community.
So I would say most of myconversion students are coming
(14:37):
from LGBT community And again, ithink that's from lots of
different faiths are reallybeing told that religion and
their identity don't mesh, andthen finding liberal Judaism and
realizing that actually it canbe there And not only can your
identity and your religiousidentity mesh, but your
religious identity can actuallylift up your other identities.
(15:00):
And that's been a reallypositive experience to witness.
Hannah Gaber (15:04):
That is really really cool.
Yeah, i mean, that's reallyinteresting that you say that.
I mean as a sort of obviouslykind of a tongue-in-cheek person
, just in general.
like you know, whenever I met,for example, like Italian
Catholics in like the Northeast,and they're like oh, i'm
Catholic, you're Jewish, andwe're like same same.
Rabbi Fischel (15:20):
We always joke about that.
Hannah Gaber (15:22):
It never about how it's like oh yeah, you get it.
the shame, you know, you know,and like we say that flippantly,
but like there is.
I'm always curious about, likehaving dealt with people from so
many different backgrounds.
are there things?
and I'm not saying like shameis an integral part of Judaism
or Catholicism?
I'm just saying it's like itmakes a lot more sense to think
about it.
Don't add her, don't add her God, just what we need.
(15:44):
But I like that.
It makes a lot more sense whenyou point out that it's like
there is almost like a code ofconduct right It is.
It's like the day to day, likethe candles on Shabbat right,
like redo your Torah study onSaturdays, like that makes a lot
of sense with like you know,it's the same as the Eucharist,
where it's like this is justwhat we do, and so that bond of
(16:04):
like timed, regulated stuffmakes a lot of sense.
Do you feel like there areother like tenets or behaviors
in Judaism or whatever that yousee echoed in or mirrored or
like parallel in certain otherfaiths?
Like I mean, i guess I'mthinking about, for example,
women becoming, you know,bishops and pastors in the
(16:26):
Episcopal church And like arethere, for example, maybe
evolutions of other religions?
that you sort of are like ohyeah, we're kind of dealing with
that too in Judaism.
Rabbi Fischel (16:35):
Yeah, so it's interesting, in this space of
conversion, i hear the oppositeright, i always hear the
differences and not thesimilarities And honestly, i
wish I was more.
no, i knew more about worldfaiths.
It's one of the things on mybucket list.
I do think that, as places areas certain you know, sects of
Christianity are becoming moreliberal, that we're having more
(16:57):
and more similarities.
I also think in general.
I have found that, in general,people who identify as religious
and.
I identify as religious.
I think often people thinkperformed Jews don't.
Hannah Gaber (17:12):
I'm a rabbi.
Rabbi Fischel (17:12):
I identify as religious.
That makes sense.
Have more in common with otherpeople who identify as religious
, almost no matter what religion.
That is right, that there'sthis underlying idea that
something else is guiding ourlife, that there's a different
type of meaning in our lifewhere we can speak a similar
language, even if our religionis right or wrong.
Hannah Gaber (17:32):
Yeah, yeah, I mean , I think that that's one of the
things that I really wanna likejust put out there.
Is that the language of Ialmost said the language of
faith, but I think it's reallymore the language of
spirituality.
The language of spirituality isalmost universal, I mean, even
when we have conversations aboutlike Christ is love it's like
yeah, if we're gonna talk aboutuniversal love, we're talking
(17:53):
about the same thing here, thatwe're all sort of of that spirit
And like that's the point right, and so it's interesting.
I'm curious everyone I'm surehas their own, i know, everyone
I know has their own specific,unique journey.
But are there themes?
are there why?
Like, do you notice a certaintheme around people's?
(18:15):
why that they come to Judaism?
Rabbi Fischel (18:17):
for Yeah, i think there's a few things.
One is intentional community, ithink, more than God, more than
spirituality, especially postpandemic, people are looking for
other people, but other peoplenot in like a happy hour
schmooze way, which is fine,that's fun.
Hannah Gaber (18:33):
We do that too, by the way.
Yeah, yeah, that's great.
Rabbi Fischel (18:37):
But more in a really in depth like who can I
have deep conversations with?
Who can I talk about mortalitywith?
Because suddenly this is all inour face all the time And who's
asking those questions notanswering, but who's asking
those questions is religion, andso I think that seems to be a
big theme For Judaism inparticular.
(18:59):
The thing that is like sort ofthe clincher that everyone's
like whoa is that we have theability to question right That a
Torah study in Judaism is gonnabe mainly questions, not a lot
of answers.
Never is it gonna be at least inliberal Judaism, i would say,
is it gonna be like this passageis saying this and this is the
message for our lives and noother message is allowed.
(19:22):
It's much more well, whatmessage are you finding right?
And I'm gonna come in with myown ideas as the teacher and
rabbi of the class, but it'sgonna be much more organic about
who's in the room and who'sbringing themselves to this text
and what questions are beingasked.
I have a lot of stories ofpeople who are like the Bible
study that they grew up with isjust so dogmatic.
(19:43):
And so this is what it means,and if you don't like what it
means, then you're not in thefold, And that really doesn't
fit with people or the peoplethat I'm talking to.
Hannah Gaber (19:52):
Yeah, and it's so funny because, even as you're
saying that, obviously whoever'slistening can't see this, but
I'm over here like wincing And Ithink that's the stuff that
makes Judaism like you weresaying.
maybe it's a cult, yes,culturally yes, and religiously
yes, But I think really more soit's a worldview, And it's that
worldview of like to me,expelling someone for not
(20:15):
adhering to the dogma, asopposed to embracing and
answering their questions inways that feel satisfying to
them.
That, to me, is like.
so it's not just antitheticalto what I understand religion is
supposed to accomplish, butit's also just counterproductive
.
right?
If you want someone to be inthe fold, wouldn't you just
answer the questions, Right?
Rabbi Fischel (20:36):
exactly, exactly.
And I also wanna be clear thatthere are some forms of Judaism
that do have clear answers andclear in or out language, but
certainly not the form ofJudaism that I prescribe to, nor
that I teach.
Yeah, and not the form that Iwas raising, and this is sort of
where, like all my curiositiesare coming from.
Hannah Gaber (20:54):
Is that it's like I almost wanna say it's like the
invisible way of being that isjust being Jewish, where it's
like I was raised with all thisstuff And to me I'm like I can't
imagine the hurt that it wouldcause someone to be raised in a
community and then told well, ifthis one piece doesn't align
with you, then I guess you don'treally belong here.
Rabbi Fischel (21:12):
Yeah, and what's amazing about that is that it
can be it's sort of adouble-edged sword, because once
a lot of these people find thatthere's such a relief like, oh
my goodness, this community isgonna open to my questions,
there's actually probably noquestion that I can ask.
that's gonna be offensive wildright.
Because if you approach withcuriosity, find by me, and then
(21:33):
on the other side of it theyrealized that they weren't
raised that way, right, and thenthat's the sort of the healing
and hurt that happens of wait soI could have been.
I'm missing out.
There's a loss here of notgrowing up with like the booby
who makes chicken soup and hadme with open arms, and that's
(21:53):
part of that conversionnarrative that's really hard to
teach.
It's actually why a lot of thebooks I assign are narratives
and not like history books,because I sort of wanna provide
them with authors who can betheir booby, who can be their
Zadie, who can be their Jewishfamily members, even when they
have great relationships withtheir family members.
Right, they're on a differentjourney.
Hannah Gaber (22:15):
Well, and also having Jewish family is
different, because I'm sure,like I, don't, have a well, i do
have a Catholic stepmom and Ijust worship her and love her
and adore her Not worship, evenappropriate in this context, but
I adore her, or quiteappropriate, but sure, or
critically, but indeed.
And I would call her, you know,Jew adjacent really because
she's deeply curious.
She actually formally educatedherself for quite a while after
(22:36):
sort of taking an interest in usand how we were raised and
she's a lovely human, you know.
But yes, like her, the way thatshe moves through the world is
different and it's graceful andit's gracious in her own ways
And I believe that those reflectthe values she was raised with
And those are instructive to metoo.
But it's definitely not thesame as like we consider.
(22:59):
I mean, we all just sit aroundthe table and talk over each
other and it's just everythingall the time, and like it can be
a lot, don't get me wrong, forsure, for sure.
But like you know, it's likeeven when I moved here and you
know my auntie is properly abooby as well, she's the
patriarch of the family.
Now She's the eldest, mymother's eldest sister, and you
know I was living in thebasement, like you do, and the
(23:20):
interrupting it was just likecausing me anxiety and she would
just laugh so hard and be like,did you forget?
Like this is just what we do.
This is a Jewish-y thing.
We just interrupt each otherbecause I had a thought and it's
about your thought, and nowwe're exchanging thoughts in the
middle of our thoughts.
Rabbi Fischel (23:32):
Yeah, for sure, for sure, Absolutely, and it's a
form of.
I mean, what gets me about thatis like it's actually a form of
respect And for us right, thatlike, yeah, i'm so excited about
what you're saying, i literallycannot wait until you stop
talking for me to say what Iwant to say.
Hannah Gaber (23:46):
Totally, and I was raised that way, or I just was
that way, i guess, and then, asI got, interestingly when I went
to college and I lived inSavannah, so I was in.
Georgia for 10 years.
That was really the place wherepeople started just being like,
oh, she ever does thisinterrupt.
And I was like how do I makepeople understand that I'm doing
it because I'm excited And thatit's because I love you and I
care about what you're sayingAnd I'm so interested And it
(24:07):
fully took me, i would say, intothe last maybe three years to
like find, even psychological,like research and literature on
that, where it's like especiallyfor people with ADHD, where
it's like, no, no, I'mparticipating, Yeah for sure, it
sounds like.
I'm not listening.
It's the opposite.
Rabbi Fischel (24:21):
But I'm here, i promise, i'm here.
It's the opposite.
Hannah Gaber (24:22):
I'm telling you, I'm listening right now.
Rabbi Fischel (24:24):
Yeah, for sure, i'm listening so hard, for sure.
Hannah Gaber (24:26):
Okay, so that was kind of a digression, all good,
but you know that's what we do,part of it.
Oh my gosh, this is a funnyquestion that I wrote down and I
don't know if this is even,have you noticed, like an order
of operations.
That's like a something like agoing to Jewish pipeline.
Are there certain commonalitiesthat you see in people's
(24:49):
journeys that it's like, forexample, like Laurel, where it's
like I started as Catholic andthen I made my way through
Episcopalian and then I made myway to Judaism.
Rabbi Fischel (24:56):
Like yeah, that's more rare actually of like
trying out different things.
Yeah, i sort of assumed beforeI got into it, before I really,
you know, became part of thepulpit, that that would be the
case, that everyone would sortof try out different things More
.
So it's like If they're raisedwith some faith, they go far
away from the faith really areon their own and then find
(25:19):
Judaism right, like they'rereally like sort of out in the
outskirts of secular life andare not and find this the other
way.
And the other one is, if you'renot a lot of our students are
not raised religious at all Andsame thing that they're always
sort of missing something.
They feel like they're missingsomething.
They're always sort of jealousof the people both at religious
(25:40):
school, at Jewish religiousschool, but also at CCD and at
other types of Sunday schoolright, and are just sort of
trying to find it and want itback.
But usually it's not like apapery of different religions.
I would say the maincommonality is that someone
invited them to a holiday orShabbat.
Hannah Gaber (26:01):
That was going to be my next question, like since
we're not out thereproselytizing, like how the heck
do people find it in the firstplace?
Rabbi Fischel (26:07):
Yeah, So I would say Shabbat.
I would say Shabbat Passover orHigh Holidays, that those three
things are what people havesaid Like.
so I went to a Seder for thefirst time and just it blew my
mind that like here was this bigritual and there was 30 people
like with four different tablesout in the living room and we
(26:29):
drank four bottles of wine Andwe drank glasses, glasses.
Hannah Gaber (26:31):
We drank four glasses of wine.
Rabbi Fischel (26:34):
And somehow talked about this oppression and
freedom.
That happened thousands ofyears ago but somehow made it
relevant to us today And therewas a lot of joy when those
topics are so dark.
And how else could we do that?
And how else can I engage thisway?
Oh my God, just everything,yeah.
And also for High Holidays aswell.
(26:56):
That for whatever.
However they did, they got to asynagogue for High Holidays and
it was overwhelming to them.
Overwhelming in a great way,and sometimes in like a scary
way.
Yeah.
Hannah Gaber (27:07):
I mean, it is there the days of awe for a
reason?
And I certainly like you know,i guess as you get older as a
Jewish person, maybe this iscommon.
Like you know, hanukkah is yourfavorite holiday when you're a
kid because there's presentsinvolved obviously.
And then, of course, passoveris everybody's favorite, because
we get to eat for hours andhours and hours and it's the
best, but, like, yom Kippur ismy favorite holiday in the sense
of like what I guessspirituality and religion in its
(27:31):
best form accomplishes for us,which is renewal and
introspection and tapping intothat like super deep honesty of
you.
can you know you can not fool,but like you can present however
you want in this world.
But where we have trouble then,as humans, is when we've
bifurcated our identities inthat way where our external self
(27:53):
and our internal self aren'tnecessarily aligned.
and you can never not feel that, and if you don't have the
words for it, even if you don'tnecessarily know what's
happening, if you are at discordwith yourself, it always, it
always hurts you and it causesproblems in relationships and
everything.
And Yom Kippur is the moment oflike you know better.
Yeah, absolutely, and you canalways come home.
Rabbi Fischel (28:13):
Absolutely, Absolutely So.
Yom Kippur is also my favoriteholiday for the same exact
reason that it just feels likeso the ritual is so it's not
obvious, right Like it'sbrilliant is what?
Hannah Gaber (28:22):
it is.
Rabbi Fischel (28:23):
But to be able to sort of to really engage with
ourselves in a deep andmeaningful way, to engage with
our mortality in a deep andmeaningful way and say that,
yeah, we don't know what theyear is gonna, is gonna be, and
so I better figure out the wayin which I want to behave right
now, because there, who knowsAnd what's wild and I'm not
saying this is for everyone, i'mnot generalizing that much,
(28:45):
right?
But if you were to ask sort ofour everyday congregate, right?
If you were to ask, like what'sthe deal with high holidays
with, like most Jews, they wouldbe like what's?
Hannah Gaber (28:54):
the deal with high holidays.
Rabbi Fischel (28:55):
It would be like really long services or like we
got to get out of there and thenyou get a bagel right.
And, to be fair, I thinkservices here at Washington
Hebrew very engaging and in yourlocal shawl too, very engaging
and beautiful.
Hannah Gaber (29:06):
Support your local shawlyism, my goodness.
Rabbi Fischel (29:09):
And what I hear from our conversion students is
like I was sitting in thissanctuary, i didn't know anyone,
i sat alone and I just startedto cry and I don't know why.
And it's such a differentexperience, right, such a
different experience of tappinginto that emotional religious
space that I actually think Jews, who are born Jewish, we do
really poorly right, like weactually do sort of have decor,
(29:31):
I mean, even if we're going tointerrupt each other all the
time and we don't show emotionwith our religion a lot right,
like we don't connect that way aton.
Of course something's going onin your life.
You have someone who'ssuffering, right, you've
experienced a death.
You are going to connect thatway in the high holidays and
then you can't really contain itright.
But I think that's an exampleof one of the strengths our
(29:52):
community gets by includingpeople who are choosing Judaism
is that they engage with ourreligion in such a different way
and with such an amazingopenness that I think we can all
learn from them for that.
Hannah Gaber (30:04):
That is.
I also love that perspective oflike we're also better for
bringing in people who havedifferent relationships with our
same quote, unquote, same faith.
Rabbi Fischel (30:11):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Hannah Gaber (30:21):
You have, as a person who has done been a part
of at least some part of 40 ofthese this year, as a person who
has, as you say, dunked plentyof new Jews, is there something
that feels new and special everysingle time?
Do you have a favorite moment,even if you're thinking of a
specific one with one convert,or is there a favorite part of
(30:43):
the process that, like everytime it happens to you, it feels
new and special?
Rabbi Fischel (30:47):
Yeah, i think there's two.
The first is our first meeting,where every single person who
comes to us or comes to me andto my office or my Zoom room
thinks that they are the onlyperson in the world who is
finding Judaism, they are alonein this, that they're kind of
weird, because even thoughAmerica is a religious country,
(31:08):
we find religion weird And it'slike the most.
It is so brave that they emailour assistant and say I think I
want to do this, what do I do?
And then get on our calendarand do it right.
And the moment when I heartheir story and then also share
with them that they're not aloneand there's this class of 70
people that they can join andthat we do about 40 of these a
(31:30):
year and that they realize thatthere's a whole community out
there of people who are alsofinding Judaism and are loving
it.
Like their eyes light up Andit's so exciting to see someone.
Immediately.
They haven't met anyone newbesides me, but they immediately
don't feel alone And I can seeit.
I can see it on their face Andthat's unbelievably moving.
(31:50):
And then the other one that Ilove.
The other moment I love is onthe other end of it.
I love mikvah.
I love ritual bath.
It's a beautiful, beautifulritual that we do in Judaism
that liberal Judaism is now kindof reclaiming And it is an
amazing moment of transition andof identity claiming.
(32:11):
And to have to explain that tosomeone who's going through it
and to explain that this is sortof a rebirth right.
There's a reason religion useswater to cleanse you and to
transition you from one identityto the other right.
That is sort of part of arebirthing process.
And to see that work forsomeone right, To see this
(32:32):
ritual that we've been doing forthousands of years, to see them
really feel different andreally, really, at that point we
say like it's just a stamp.
Hannah Gaber (32:40):
You're Judaism right.
Rabbi Fischel (32:41):
Like you've done the work you're a.
Jew, like we just have to put astamp on you.
We don't actually put a stampon them.
Hannah Gaber (32:46):
We don't.
We also just have to be clearWe have to have to, but it's a
lovely thing, but it's lovely.
Rabbi Fischel (32:53):
And you can just see.
You can see how meaningful itis for them to go into the water
and then to come out differentYeah, different Yeah.
Hannah Gaber (33:02):
I love it.
I love it And well, and that'sthe thing I think a lot of
non-Jews can understand tooright, the idea of it's the same
as the baptism, and concept ofyou are cleansed.
you are now here, you are freshin us, you are one of us and
you are welcome, exactly,exactly, i love it.
Well, is there anything elsethat you want to add or that
should be just understood, orthat you would love to clarify,
(33:23):
perhaps about any of the process, or just general?
you know what I'm callingreform Judaism, but I noticed
that you're calling liberalJudaism, which is interesting, i
mean, i can talk about that.
That's another episode which Iwould love to do For sure.
Rabbi Fischel (33:38):
I'm sure I'm happy to say reform Judaism too.
Hannah Gaber (33:41):
I'm very proud of reform Jew.
Rabbi Fischel (33:42):
Please, yes, i guess.
I guess last thing I'd say andI'd hope it would be clear
already is that this process isnot scary.
The process of becoming Jewishis not scary.
It's actually a really deep,engaging process of figuring out
who you are right, who theperson is.
And, yes, it's learning aboutJudaism, it's learning about
prayers, it's learning aboutShabbat, it's learning about
(34:03):
holidays, but really it's aboutlearning about yourself and
about who you are as a personand how this religion can help
you be a better person, a moremeaningful person, a more
intentional person, and aboutlearning about yourself and who
you want to be.
Hannah Gaber (34:19):
And I think I'm just going to add to that a
little bit, even though it'ssupposed to be your thoughts.
No, please please.
I think the other thing too,that I remember saying to my
friend Nancy, for example, theother thing is that there's no
wrong answers and there's nowrong path right.
You can go to every single classand then, be like actually I'm
going to skip the bait game.
Thanks for everything.
You could go to none of theclasses and just do all the
(34:39):
readings.
You could simply have the oneconversation with Rabbi Fashal.
There's no wrong path.
If what you're seeking is adeeper connection to your own
sense of I think you said itbest like really just
intentionality and meaningfulengagement with your world.
How can I just be a betterperson and you're finding any
(35:00):
guidance in that in studyingJudaism at all?
You're doing it right, yeahabsolutely, absolutely.
Rabbi Fischel (35:05):
I love that.
Hannah Gaber (35:06):
Well, amen Beautiful.
Rabbi Fischel (35:08):
Awesome amen.
Thank you so much foreverything.
Hannah Gaber (35:11):
Yeah, for sure This has been Jewish.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you like what you hear,please follow or subscribe.
wherever you get your podcasts,please do tell a friend.
Word of mouth is the absolutebest way to get the word out, as
it were.
Make sure you go back andlisten to some of the other
episodes in the conversionseries, especially with what
(35:31):
Rabbi Fashal had to say.
It might all be a little moreclear now.
and stay tuned.
We've got at least one more fornow and, don't worry, my Jewish
mother is coming up.
So thank you so much forlistening and please subscribe
for more.
Jewish is a same-or production.
One of the books I always assign is To Life by
Harold Kushner, and I reread itevery few years And every time I
read it by the end of the bookI'm like God, I should convert
to Judaism.
This thing is great, so Irecommend for that book.
It's a little dated but it'sbeautiful, yeah.
Hannah Gaber (00:15):
Welcome to Jew-ish .
The show for Jews, non-Jews,the Jew- curious, just all the
varieties of Jewishness.
If you've been listening so far, you've heard a name come up
again and again, but until nowyou have not gotten to hear her
voice.
I'm talking about Rabbi ElianaFischel of Washington Hebrew
congregation.
Rabbi Fischel jumped on boardwith the show really early on
(00:39):
and has been super supportiveand instrumental in hooking me
up with some of the voicesyou've already heard, or that
you will hear, or that you'll goback and hear, ahem.
But today it's her turn.
I'm bringing her in at thispoint in our conversion
miniseries to bust some mythsand give a little gravitas to
what we've talked about so far.
We'll have a few laughs, we'llhit some of the nuts and bolts
(01:01):
and basic questions you probablyhave about conversion-- Or, ok,
fine, that I had aboutconversion.
And, as always, don't forget tocheck the show notes on this
and every episode.
For a glossary of terms youmight hear.
K.
Here's the show.
Rabbi Fischel (01:19):
So, hi, I am Rabbi Eliana Fischel.
I am an associate rabbi atWashington Hebrew congregation
in Washington DC and in Potomac,Maryland.
I've been a rabbi here for fiveyears.
I am a graduate of Hebrew UnionCollege Jewish Institute of
Religion, which is the ReformJewish seminary.
I was in the New York campus.
(01:40):
And here at Washington Hebrew,I run 2239, which is our 20s and
30s young professionalcommunity, as well as some
communities for new moms andpregnant women and an LGBTQ
cohort, Jews of color cohort,and I spend a lot of time with
our teens.
Hannah Gaber (01:59):
That is a lot.
So basically, you're the coolyoung rabbi is where we're at.
Rabbi Fischel (02:04):
Cool is a relative term when rabbi is
followed by it.
But sure, sure, You're therabbi for the young kids I don't
know about that I don't knowabout that.
Hannah Gaber (02:11):
Well, ok, so we're here today because you were
very enthusiastic in myquestions about conversion And I
know that it's a little bitdifferent for reform Jews And
that's, I guess I said the sectand my mom corrected me What
does it call?
It's not called a sect inJudaism.
It's called a sect or adenomination, denomination,
(02:31):
strain or stream.
I think she said too.
I don't know.
Anyway, lots of words, yeah,it's all good.
So I grew up always hearingthat there that first of all,
judaism does not proselytizeLike it's forbidden from doing
that.
We don't go out and solicitpeople to join.
That's just not a thing Jews do.
But I've also heard or I wasalso raised hearing that you're
(02:53):
actually supposed to turnconverts away the first three
times that they ask ostensiblybecause being the chosen people
is actually a huge burden orwhatever it is.
Is that real?
Is that true?
Do we still do that Like?
do you know where that comes?
Rabbi Fischel (03:08):
from Sure.
So the image I have of Jewsturning away a potential convert
three times is Charlotte fromSex in the City When she shows
up with platters of food andshe's like, please, I just want
to be Jewish.
So I think that's probably how Iwas introduced to it when I was
a kid, but for one, that's just.
That's a minchag.
Which is a minchag is a custom.
(03:28):
There's no law that says youhave to say no to someone who
wants to join Judaism.
Off of a little bit of research, it seems like it's coming from
the book of Ruth, where Naomitold Ruth to turn away.
Three times Ruth kept sayingNaomi I'm going to come with you
, i'm going to come with you.
And Naomi said no, go away,like go live your life, and said
(03:52):
it three times.
And so there's perhaps aconnection there.
But this is really coming fromcustom And I think it has helped
in ways to make Judaism feelelusive and to feel elite.
But actually the Reform Judaismsteered clear of that in the
1990s.
In the 1990s we took a big push.
The Union for Reform Judaismdid this explicitly, saying
(04:13):
actually we really love what wehave to offer And Judaism is
pretty amazing And it gives alot of meaning.
It gives a lot of spiritualityto people's lives And we think
we have it pretty great.
And so, while we're not goingto go out and proselytize, we're
certainly going to tell peoplehow great we think we are and
how great Judaism is, anddefinitely someone who wants to
join our faith, absolutely we'regoing to welcome them with open
arms And we are not going tomake any more barriers than
(04:36):
already necessary to becomeJewish And that also goes for
interfaith families as well thatanyone who wants to join our
faith, as someone who is Jewishadjacent to a partner is going
to be welcomed with open arms aswell.
We're not going to put upbarriers to make that more
difficult for them.
Hannah Gaber (04:53):
I love that.
That's so fun And I'm so happythat you said Jewish adjacent,
because I think even my friendsoften, once they start to get
curious or ask me questionsabout my life, they even start
to, I think, think of themselvesas Jewish adjacent which is
lovely and sweet, and I wasalways raised to be like, oh
yeah, i mean I have, as in mostplaces there's not a ton of
(05:13):
Jewish people around,numerically.
So yeah, all my Goyesh friends,come join me for Hanukkah and
come for a Seder And I'll makeyou salmon, because you're a
pescatarian And they love allthat stuff.
But so that does raise thequestion so is there an official
process, like do you have to?
Is it becoming Jewish?
like getting a degree, do youhave to take certain classes and
(05:33):
then you're in, or can you sortof self-identify as Jewish and
then, ta-da, you're Jewish.
Rabbi Fischel (05:38):
So The process to become Jewish is different
depending on the sective Judaismthat you're in, and even
different depending on thecongregation you're in, and even
different depending on therabbi that you're working with.
So at Washington Hebrew we doaround 40 conversions a year
which most of our congregationdoesn't really know about.
(05:59):
So we take conversion reallyseriously that it's up to the
person who's converting to sortof share that with everybody.
we're never gonna share whowe're working with.
Hannah Gaber (06:08):
It's like personal right.
It's like kind of a private,intimate thing.
Rabbi Fischel (06:11):
It's really personal and in our tradition it
says actually that you're notsupposed to publicize a convert,
because once they become Jewish, they are as Jewish as Moses,
as Jewish as you and me, andshould never be sort of asked
when they became Jewish.
So that would be seen as sortof inappropriate or
disrespectful right.
No, no, no, they were at Sinai,just like I was.
(06:31):
Yeah, so the way that we thinkabout conversion is actually
that you've always had a Jewishsoul.
We're just giving it a littlebit of like, light and water and
watching it grow.
That's from.
Those are words from my amazingcolleague, rabbi Aaron Miller,
that I use all the time.
That's so nice, what an image,yeah, really beautiful.
(06:52):
And so what we do here atWashington Hebrew is it's a
really personalized study thattakes about a year.
They meet with a rabbi orcanter once a month for almost
an entire year.
We assign or what I do is Iassign a book at every meeting.
I sort of have a list that I gothrough, going from the most
general to more specifics, andthen, as a student gets involved
(07:13):
, they start asking their ownquestions and I give them books
that personalize to them.
I also assign an experiencethat being Jewish is so much
more than belief or faith orwhat we think.
It's really about behavior,right, that's why we're not
really a religion, we're notreally an ethnicity, we're not
really a culture, we're kind ofeverything in between, yeah, and
so I don't think you can reallybecome Jewish unless you've
tried lighting Shabbat candles,unless you've tried some version
(07:35):
of kosher, unless you've triedsome version of adult study and
Torah study.
And what I say to my studentsis I don't expect you to do this
as a Jew all the time, right,because I don't want to give
higher expectations to you thanmy typical Joju congregant, but
I do expect you to try it and tosee what's meaningful for you
and to see what sticks, and soeach month they get these
(07:56):
assignments and we talk aboutthem together.
Also, those meetings are alsopretty pastoral.
I'm not a counselor, but theytake on that role too, because
it's a huge identity shift Andespecially to take on a minority
identity is really challengingsometimes, especially when
people are coming from familiesof different faiths or families
of no faith, and how do youapproach those conversations?
(08:18):
So a lot of the meetings arelike that as well.
We also highly recommend thatthey take a class we provide
called 12 Jewish Questions,which is a version of
introduction to Judaism but isfor everybody.
It's for people who arestarting a Jewish journey, but
also people who are reconnectingto their Judaism as an adult.
So we have congregants in therewho are like 80 and have never
(08:41):
studied before but just retiredand want to learn about Judaism,
as well as people who are juststarting on their Jewish path.
It's a wonderful course Andthen at the end of all this sort
of around the 10-month mark, wehave a conversation that's like
how do you feel?
And before that, at any point,if someone says you know, i
actually think this isn't for megreat.
They haven't wasted my time.
(09:02):
The point is for people to findtheir place and their
spirituality and their religion.
I'm not in the business ofmaking Jews right.
We don't proselytize.
Hannah Gaber (09:10):
We're not selling you something I'm not selling
them anything.
Rabbi Fischel (09:13):
If it's not right , it's not right.
I do ask them not to ghost me.
Hannah Gaber (09:16):
I'm like if you could just let me know that
you're going to go.
Rabbi Fischel (09:18):
Sometimes they do , but it's okay.
And then we decide to bringthem to Bate Deen.
So Bate Deen sounds reallyintimidating And I always try to
say that it's not Technically,it's a court.
So it's three reallyintimidating.
Hannah Gaber (09:33):
Bate Deen means house of religion, right.
Rabbi Fischel (09:36):
House of judgment , So it's literally the words
you use for a court And it'sthree highly educated Jews.
So we always use three clergyor our education staff And it's
really for us, it's really justa conversation.
We're not quizzing people.
We are just talking to themabout their spiritual journey
and their Jewish journey,Questions that would have been
(09:56):
really hard a year before butnow actually are just part and
parcel of their life, rightAbout how they engage with their
life, how their relationshipwith God, their relationship
with holidays, theirrelationship with Shabbat, what
they struggle with.
Hannah Gaber (10:08):
What would be like an example question?
Rabbi Fischel (10:12):
An example question would be how has your
relationship with God changedfrom before this process to now,
and what do you sort of hopefor your relationship with God
in the future?
Another question would be youknow you've learned a ton over
the past year classes, books,whatever.
What have you loved?
What have you like?
Yes, that is what I want.
And what are you still reallystruggling with?
Because part of being Jewish istaking on this name, yisrael,
(10:33):
which means to struggle with God.
We love a struggle, so what doyou struggle with?
Hannah Gaber (10:37):
We really do.
Rabbi Fischel (10:38):
Why do we like this?
So what are you struggling with?
After that, batey and we takethem, they also have to write
sorry, they have to write aspiritual autobiography or a
personal statement as part ofthat as well.
We then take them to the mikvahat Yisrael.
here in Washington DC has abeautiful, beautiful mikvah and
they immerse three times andthen we do a welcome ceremony
(11:00):
for them And, as we say, theycome out of that water and they
are as Jewish as anyone.
Hannah Gaber (11:06):
Wow, i feel like I don't know.
Maybe you've heard this before.
I hope not.
Maybe probably.
I feel like almost that thepeople who have done that sort
of formal education like oh shit, are they more Jewish than me?
Cause.
I don't know the other, like Ihave not, Although I sit here
saying that and I'm like Ihaven't had those conversations.
Then it's like, okay, but theyall didn't have to learn Hebrew
and then stand in front of acongregation and like forget
(11:28):
half of their Torah portion Andchant Torah when you're 13 and
so awkward.
Rabbi Fischel (11:31):
Oh the misery, the worst, the worst, so,
actually.
so most of our conversions areactually not part of a couple,
but the ones that are right,where they are engaged or going
to be married or very seriouswith someone who is Jewish.
We always talk to the Jewishpartner and I always say you're
about to become 10 times moreJewish than you ever imagined,
(11:51):
because so many Jews sort ofleave their Judaism in a
pediatric realm right, they dothe really embarrassing thing of
standing up there at the Bemaat age 13 and then never really
come back to it.
And then here is this partnerthat they love, who's engaging
with Judaism in an adult way,with really intense questions
and not just like learning aboutJudaism separate from ourselves
(12:12):
, like a graduate program, right, but really about like, what
does it mean for us and for meand for how I'm growing, and
that is gonna engage you in adifferent way.
And so, yes, we're creatinglots of Jews, but also we're
creating lots of a lot moreadult Jews.
Hannah Gaber (12:26):
More Jewish Jews, more Jewish Jews, more Jewish.
Rabbi Fischel (12:28):
Jews for sure.
Hannah Gaber (12:30):
Well, that is so cool And it's like I never
really thought about it reallyin that way, although and
honestly you know, it was myfriend Nancy who made me think
about it.
Like I got her the Jewish bookof why for Hanukkah a couple of
years ago And then I was like,ooh, i maybe should also have a
copy of this.
I bought myself one too, yeah,yeah.
And, like you know, maybe Ihaven't opened it or whatever,
we'll see, maybe I will thisyear, any day might be the day
(12:51):
Yeah.
Rabbi Fischel (12:51):
Who's to say.
One of the books I alwaysassign is to life by Harold
Kushner, and I reread it everyfew years And every time I read
it by the end of the book I'mlike God I should convert to
Judaism.
This thing is great, so Irecommend for that book.
It's a little dated but it'sbeautiful That sounds awesome.
Okay, I'll put that on my listof things to do, my ever-growing
list as I go through thispodcast process.
Hannah Gaber (13:10):
Absolutely, so that is really cool, so it's not
.
You know you can't fail outright, like you don't get to the
bait din and then answer theirquestions wrong and they're like
get out.
Rabbi Fischel (13:18):
No, certainly not .
We would never.
I would never bring anyone tobait din who I wasn't sure was
gonna was good to go.
Hannah Gaber (13:28):
You mentioned that people obviously come from all
different backgrounds and faiths.
Is there like a specific or aparticular like faith or
background?
you see a lot of Like.
Do you see like?
are they 90% Catholic?
Are they 90% Episcopalians?
You know what I mean.
Like, I'm so curious, Yeah.
Rabbi Fischel (13:42):
I would say I have no numbers for you.
This is just what I see in myoffice is that the majority, if
they come from a faith, themajority are coming from
Catholic.
Hannah Gaber (13:51):
Interesting From Catholicism Is that because of
that, you know, we share theshame.
Basis of that.
Rabbi Fischel (13:57):
It's a little bit .
It's more that they really loveritual but don't love dogma,
and so that's where you getliberal Judaism right.
It's like we understand ancienttradition, we understand
ancient ritual and how powerfulit is and we don't wanna put it
aside, we wanna put it at theforefront and we're not going to
(14:17):
mandate that your religioncontradicts the life that you
lead, and so I think that'sprobably why we get that
background so much.
And then not a faith, but hugemajority are coming from the
LGBT community.
So I would say most of myconversion students are coming
(14:37):
from LGBT community And again, ithink that's from lots of
different faiths are reallybeing told that religion and
their identity don't mesh, andthen finding liberal Judaism and
realizing that actually it canbe there And not only can your
identity and your religiousidentity mesh, but your
religious identity can actuallylift up your other identities.
(15:00):
And that's been a reallypositive experience to witness.
Hannah Gaber (15:04):
That is really really cool.
Yeah, i mean, that's reallyinteresting that you say that.
I mean as a sort of obviouslykind of a tongue-in-cheek person
, just in general.
like you know, whenever I met,for example, like Italian
Catholics in like the Northeast,and they're like oh, i'm
Catholic, you're Jewish, andwe're like same same.
Rabbi Fischel (15:20):
We always joke about that.
Hannah Gaber (15:22):
It never about how it's like oh yeah, you get it.
the shame, you know, you know,and like we say that flippantly,
but like there is.
I'm always curious about, likehaving dealt with people from so
many different backgrounds.
are there things?
and I'm not saying like shameis an integral part of Judaism
or Catholicism?
I'm just saying it's like itmakes a lot more sense to think
about it.
Don't add her, don't add her God, just what we need.
(15:44):
But I like that.
It makes a lot more sense whenyou point out that it's like
there is almost like a code ofconduct right It is.
It's like the day to day, likethe candles on Shabbat right,
like redo your Torah study onSaturdays, like that makes a lot
of sense with like you know,it's the same as the Eucharist,
where it's like this is justwhat we do, and so that bond of
(16:04):
like timed, regulated stuffmakes a lot of sense.
Do you feel like there areother like tenets or behaviors
in Judaism or whatever that yousee echoed in or mirrored or
like parallel in certain otherfaiths?
Like I mean, i guess I'mthinking about, for example,
women becoming, you know,bishops and pastors in the
(16:26):
Episcopal church And like arethere, for example, maybe
evolutions of other religions?
that you sort of are like ohyeah, we're kind of dealing with
that too in Judaism.
Rabbi Fischel (16:35):
Yeah, so it's interesting, in this space of
conversion, i hear the oppositeright, i always hear the
differences and not thesimilarities And honestly, i
wish I was more.
no, i knew more about worldfaiths.
It's one of the things on mybucket list.
I do think that, as places areas certain you know, sects of
Christianity are becoming moreliberal, that we're having more
(16:57):
and more similarities.
I also think in general.
I have found that, in general,people who identify as religious
and.
I identify as religious.
I think often people thinkperformed Jews don't.
Hannah Gaber (17:12):
I'm a rabbi.
Rabbi Fischel (17:12):
I identify as religious.
That makes sense.
Have more in common with otherpeople who identify as religious
, almost no matter what religion.
That is right, that there'sthis underlying idea that
something else is guiding ourlife, that there's a different
type of meaning in our lifewhere we can speak a similar
language, even if our religionis right or wrong.
Hannah Gaber (17:32):
Yeah, yeah, I mean , I think that that's one of the
things that I really wanna likejust put out there.
Is that the language of Ialmost said the language of
faith, but I think it's reallymore the language of
spirituality.
The language of spirituality isalmost universal, I mean, even
when we have conversations aboutlike Christ is love it's like
yeah, if we're gonna talk aboutuniversal love, we're talking
(17:53):
about the same thing here, thatwe're all sort of of that spirit
And like that's the point right, and so it's interesting.
I'm curious everyone I'm surehas their own, i know, everyone
I know has their own specific,unique journey.
But are there themes?
are there why?
Like, do you notice a certaintheme around people's?
(18:15):
why that they come to Judaism?
Rabbi Fischel (18:17):
for Yeah, i think there's a few things.
One is intentional community, ithink, more than God, more than
spirituality, especially postpandemic, people are looking for
other people, but other peoplenot in like a happy hour
schmooze way, which is fine,that's fun.
Hannah Gaber (18:33):
We do that too, by the way.
Yeah, yeah, that's great.
Rabbi Fischel (18:37):
But more in a really in depth like who can I
have deep conversations with?
Who can I talk about mortalitywith?
Because suddenly this is all inour face all the time And who's
asking those questions notanswering, but who's asking
those questions is religion, andso I think that seems to be a
big theme For Judaism inparticular.
(18:59):
The thing that is like sort ofthe clincher that everyone's
like whoa is that we have theability to question right That a
Torah study in Judaism is gonnabe mainly questions, not a lot
of answers.
Never is it gonna be at least inliberal Judaism, i would say,
is it gonna be like this passageis saying this and this is the
message for our lives and noother message is allowed.
(19:22):
It's much more well, whatmessage are you finding right?
And I'm gonna come in with myown ideas as the teacher and
rabbi of the class, but it'sgonna be much more organic about
who's in the room and who'sbringing themselves to this text
and what questions are beingasked.
I have a lot of stories ofpeople who are like the Bible
study that they grew up with isjust so dogmatic.
(19:43):
And so this is what it means,and if you don't like what it
means, then you're not in thefold, And that really doesn't
fit with people or the peoplethat I'm talking to.
Hannah Gaber (19:52):
Yeah, and it's so funny because, even as you're
saying that, obviously whoever'slistening can't see this, but
I'm over here like wincing And Ithink that's the stuff that
makes Judaism like you weresaying.
maybe it's a cult, yes,culturally yes, and religiously
yes, But I think really more soit's a worldview, And it's that
worldview of like to me,expelling someone for not
(20:15):
adhering to the dogma, asopposed to embracing and
answering their questions inways that feel satisfying to
them.
That, to me, is like.
so it's not just antitheticalto what I understand religion is
supposed to accomplish, butit's also just counterproductive
.
right?
If you want someone to be inthe fold, wouldn't you just
answer the questions, Right?
Rabbi Fischel (20:36):
exactly, exactly.
And I also wanna be clear thatthere are some forms of Judaism
that do have clear answers andclear in or out language, but
certainly not the form ofJudaism that I prescribe to, nor
that I teach.
Yeah, and not the form that Iwas raising, and this is sort of
where, like all my curiositiesare coming from.
Hannah Gaber (20:54):
Is that it's like I almost wanna say it's like the
invisible way of being that isjust being Jewish, where it's
like I was raised with all thisstuff And to me I'm like I can't
imagine the hurt that it wouldcause someone to be raised in a
community and then told well, ifthis one piece doesn't align
with you, then I guess you don'treally belong here.
Rabbi Fischel (21:12):
Yeah, and what's amazing about that is that it
can be it's sort of adouble-edged sword, because once
a lot of these people find thatthere's such a relief like, oh
my goodness, this community isgonna open to my questions,
there's actually probably noquestion that I can ask.
that's gonna be offensive wildright.
Because if you approach withcuriosity, find by me, and then
(21:33):
on the other side of it theyrealized that they weren't
raised that way, right, and thenthat's the sort of the healing
and hurt that happens of wait soI could have been.
I'm missing out.
There's a loss here of notgrowing up with like the booby
who makes chicken soup and hadme with open arms, and that's
(21:53):
part of that conversionnarrative that's really hard to
teach.
It's actually why a lot of thebooks I assign are narratives
and not like history books,because I sort of wanna provide
them with authors who can betheir booby, who can be their
Zadie, who can be their Jewishfamily members, even when they
have great relationships withtheir family members.
Right, they're on a differentjourney.
Hannah Gaber (22:15):
Well, and also having Jewish family is
different, because I'm sure,like I, don't, have a well, i do
have a Catholic stepmom and Ijust worship her and love her
and adore her Not worship, evenappropriate in this context, but
I adore her, or quiteappropriate, but sure, or
critically, but indeed.
And I would call her, you know,Jew adjacent really because
she's deeply curious.
She actually formally educatedherself for quite a while after
(22:36):
sort of taking an interest in usand how we were raised and
she's a lovely human, you know.
But yes, like her, the way thatshe moves through the world is
different and it's graceful andit's gracious in her own ways
And I believe that those reflectthe values she was raised with
And those are instructive to metoo.
But it's definitely not thesame as like we consider.
(22:59):
I mean, we all just sit aroundthe table and talk over each
other and it's just everythingall the time, and like it can be
a lot, don't get me wrong, forsure, for sure.
But like you know, it's likeeven when I moved here and you
know my auntie is properly abooby as well, she's the
patriarch of the family.
Now She's the eldest, mymother's eldest sister, and you
know I was living in thebasement, like you do, and the
(23:20):
interrupting it was just likecausing me anxiety and she would
just laugh so hard and be like,did you forget?
Like this is just what we do.
This is a Jewish-y thing.
We just interrupt each otherbecause I had a thought and it's
about your thought, and nowwe're exchanging thoughts in the
middle of our thoughts.
Rabbi Fischel (23:32):
Yeah, for sure, for sure, Absolutely, and it's a
form of.
I mean, what gets me about thatis like it's actually a form of
respect And for us right, thatlike, yeah, i'm so excited about
what you're saying, i literallycannot wait until you stop
talking for me to say what Iwant to say.
Hannah Gaber (23:46):
Totally, and I was raised that way, or I just was
that way, i guess, and then, asI got, interestingly when I went
to college and I lived inSavannah, so I was in.
Georgia for 10 years.
That was really the place wherepeople started just being like,
oh, she ever does thisinterrupt.
And I was like how do I makepeople understand that I'm doing
it because I'm excited And thatit's because I love you and I
care about what you're sayingAnd I'm so interested And it
(24:07):
fully took me, i would say, intothe last maybe three years to
like find, even psychological,like research and literature on
that, where it's like especiallyfor people with ADHD, where
it's like, no, no, I'mparticipating, Yeah for sure, it
sounds like.
I'm not listening.
It's the opposite.
Rabbi Fischel (24:21):
But I'm here, i promise, i'm here.
It's the opposite.
Hannah Gaber (24:22):
I'm telling you, I'm listening right now.
Rabbi Fischel (24:24):
Yeah, for sure, i'm listening so hard, for sure.
Hannah Gaber (24:26):
Okay, so that was kind of a digression, all good,
but you know that's what we do,part of it.
Oh my gosh, this is a funnyquestion that I wrote down and I
don't know if this is even,have you noticed, like an order
of operations.
That's like a something like agoing to Jewish pipeline.
Are there certain commonalitiesthat you see in people's
(24:49):
journeys that it's like, forexample, like Laurel, where it's
like I started as Catholic andthen I made my way through
Episcopalian and then I made myway to Judaism.
Rabbi Fischel (24:56):
Like yeah, that's more rare actually of like
trying out different things.
Yeah, i sort of assumed beforeI got into it, before I really,
you know, became part of thepulpit, that that would be the
case, that everyone would sortof try out different things More
.
So it's like If they're raisedwith some faith, they go far
away from the faith really areon their own and then find
(25:19):
Judaism right, like they'rereally like sort of out in the
outskirts of secular life andare not and find this the other
way.
And the other one is, if you'renot a lot of our students are
not raised religious at all Andsame thing that they're always
sort of missing something.
They feel like they're missingsomething.
They're always sort of jealousof the people both at religious
(25:40):
school, at Jewish religiousschool, but also at CCD and at
other types of Sunday schoolright, and are just sort of
trying to find it and want itback.
But usually it's not like apapery of different religions.
I would say the maincommonality is that someone
invited them to a holiday orShabbat.
Hannah Gaber (26:01):
That was going to be my next question, like since
we're not out thereproselytizing, like how the heck
do people find it in the firstplace?
Rabbi Fischel (26:07):
Yeah, So I would say Shabbat.
I would say Shabbat Passover orHigh Holidays, that those three
things are what people havesaid Like.
so I went to a Seder for thefirst time and just it blew my
mind that like here was this bigritual and there was 30 people
like with four different tablesout in the living room and we
(26:29):
drank four bottles of wine Andwe drank glasses, glasses.
Hannah Gaber (26:31):
We drank four glasses of wine.
Rabbi Fischel (26:34):
And somehow talked about this oppression and
freedom.
That happened thousands ofyears ago but somehow made it
relevant to us today And therewas a lot of joy when those
topics are so dark.
And how else could we do that?
And how else can I engage thisway?
Oh my God, just everything,yeah.
And also for High Holidays aswell.
(26:56):
That for whatever.
However they did, they got to asynagogue for High Holidays and
it was overwhelming to them.
Overwhelming in a great way,and sometimes in like a scary
way.
Yeah.
Hannah Gaber (27:07):
I mean, it is there the days of awe for a
reason?
And I certainly like you know,i guess as you get older as a
Jewish person, maybe this iscommon.
Like you know, hanukkah is yourfavorite holiday when you're a
kid because there's presentsinvolved obviously.
And then, of course, passoveris everybody's favorite, because
we get to eat for hours andhours and hours and it's the
best, but, like, yom Kippur ismy favorite holiday in the sense
of like what I guessspirituality and religion in its
(27:31):
best form accomplishes for us,which is renewal and
introspection and tapping intothat like super deep honesty of
you.
can you know you can not fool,but like you can present however
you want in this world.
But where we have trouble then,as humans, is when we've
bifurcated our identities inthat way where our external self
(27:53):
and our internal self aren'tnecessarily aligned.
and you can never not feel that, and if you don't have the
words for it, even if you don'tnecessarily know what's
happening, if you are at discordwith yourself, it always, it
always hurts you and it causesproblems in relationships and
everything.
And Yom Kippur is the moment oflike you know better.
Yeah, absolutely, and you canalways come home.
Rabbi Fischel (28:13):
Absolutely, Absolutely So.
Yom Kippur is also my favoriteholiday for the same exact
reason that it just feels likeso the ritual is so it's not
obvious, right Like it'sbrilliant is what?
Hannah Gaber (28:22):
it is.
Rabbi Fischel (28:23):
But to be able to sort of to really engage with
ourselves in a deep andmeaningful way, to engage with
our mortality in a deep andmeaningful way and say that,
yeah, we don't know what theyear is gonna, is gonna be, and
so I better figure out the wayin which I want to behave right
now, because there, who knowsAnd what's wild and I'm not
saying this is for everyone, i'mnot generalizing that much,
(28:45):
right?
But if you were to ask sort ofour everyday congregate, right?
If you were to ask, like what'sthe deal with high holidays
with, like most Jews, they wouldbe like what's?
Hannah Gaber (28:54):
the deal with high holidays.
Rabbi Fischel (28:55):
It would be like really long services or like we
got to get out of there and thenyou get a bagel right.
And, to be fair, I thinkservices here at Washington
Hebrew very engaging and in yourlocal shawl too, very engaging
and beautiful.
Hannah Gaber (29:06):
Support your local shawlyism, my goodness.
Rabbi Fischel (29:09):
And what I hear from our conversion students is
like I was sitting in thissanctuary, i didn't know anyone,
i sat alone and I just startedto cry and I don't know why.
And it's such a differentexperience, right, such a
different experience of tappinginto that emotional religious
space that I actually think Jews, who are born Jewish, we do
really poorly right, like weactually do sort of have decor,
(29:31):
I mean, even if we're going tointerrupt each other all the
time and we don't show emotionwith our religion a lot right,
like we don't connect that way aton.
Of course something's going onin your life.
You have someone who'ssuffering, right, you've
experienced a death.
You are going to connect thatway in the high holidays and
then you can't really contain itright.
But I think that's an exampleof one of the strengths our
(29:52):
community gets by includingpeople who are choosing Judaism
is that they engage with ourreligion in such a different way
and with such an amazingopenness that I think we can all
learn from them for that.
Hannah Gaber (30:04):
That is.
I also love that perspective oflike we're also better for
bringing in people who havedifferent relationships with our
same quote, unquote, same faith.
Rabbi Fischel (30:11):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Hannah Gaber (30:21):
You have, as a person who has done been a part
of at least some part of 40 ofthese this year, as a person who
has, as you say, dunked plentyof new Jews, is there something
that feels new and special everysingle time?
Do you have a favorite moment,even if you're thinking of a
specific one with one convert,or is there a favorite part of
(30:43):
the process that, like everytime it happens to you, it feels
new and special?
Rabbi Fischel (30:47):
Yeah, i think there's two.
The first is our first meeting,where every single person who
comes to us or comes to me andto my office or my Zoom room
thinks that they are the onlyperson in the world who is
finding Judaism, they are alonein this, that they're kind of
weird, because even thoughAmerica is a religious country,
(31:08):
we find religion weird And it'slike the most.
It is so brave that they emailour assistant and say I think I
want to do this, what do I do?
And then get on our calendarand do it right.
And the moment when I heartheir story and then also share
with them that they're not aloneand there's this class of 70
people that they can join andthat we do about 40 of these a
(31:30):
year and that they realize thatthere's a whole community out
there of people who are alsofinding Judaism and are loving
it.
Like their eyes light up Andit's so exciting to see someone.
Immediately.
They haven't met anyone newbesides me, but they immediately
don't feel alone And I can seeit.
I can see it on their face Andthat's unbelievably moving.
(31:50):
And then the other one that Ilove.
The other moment I love is onthe other end of it.
I love mikvah.
I love ritual bath.
It's a beautiful, beautifulritual that we do in Judaism
that liberal Judaism is now kindof reclaiming And it is an
amazing moment of transition andof identity claiming.
(32:11):
And to have to explain that tosomeone who's going through it
and to explain that this is sortof a rebirth right.
There's a reason religion useswater to cleanse you and to
transition you from one identityto the other right.
That is sort of part of arebirthing process.
And to see that work forsomeone right, To see this
(32:32):
ritual that we've been doing forthousands of years, to see them
really feel different andreally, really, at that point we
say like it's just a stamp.
Hannah Gaber (32:40):
You're Judaism right.
Rabbi Fischel (32:41):
Like you've done the work you're a.
Jew, like we just have to put astamp on you.
We don't actually put a stampon them.
Hannah Gaber (32:46):
We don't.
We also just have to be clearWe have to have to, but it's a
lovely thing, but it's lovely.
Rabbi Fischel (32:53):
And you can just see.
You can see how meaningful itis for them to go into the water
and then to come out differentYeah, different Yeah.
Hannah Gaber (33:02):
I love it.
I love it And well, and that'sthe thing I think a lot of
non-Jews can understand tooright, the idea of it's the same
as the baptism, and concept ofyou are cleansed.
you are now here, you are freshin us, you are one of us and
you are welcome, exactly,exactly, i love it.
Well, is there anything elsethat you want to add or that
should be just understood, orthat you would love to clarify,
(33:23):
perhaps about any of the process, or just general?
you know what I'm callingreform Judaism, but I noticed
that you're calling liberalJudaism, which is interesting, i
mean, i can talk about that.
That's another episode which Iwould love to do For sure.
Rabbi Fischel (33:38):
I'm sure I'm happy to say reform Judaism too.
Hannah Gaber (33:41):
I'm very proud of reform Jew.
Rabbi Fischel (33:42):
Please, yes, i guess.
I guess last thing I'd say andI'd hope it would be clear
already is that this process isnot scary.
The process of becoming Jewishis not scary.
It's actually a really deep,engaging process of figuring out
who you are right, who theperson is.
And, yes, it's learning aboutJudaism, it's learning about
prayers, it's learning aboutShabbat, it's learning about
(34:03):
holidays, but really it's aboutlearning about yourself and
about who you are as a personand how this religion can help
you be a better person, a moremeaningful person, a more
intentional person, and aboutlearning about yourself and who
you want to be.
Hannah Gaber (34:19):
And I think I'm just going to add to that a
little bit, even though it'ssupposed to be your thoughts.
No, please please.
I think the other thing too,that I remember saying to my
friend Nancy, for example, theother thing is that there's no
wrong answers and there's nowrong path right.
You can go to every single classand then, be like actually I'm
going to skip the bait game.
Thanks for everything.
You could go to none of theclasses and just do all the
(34:39):
readings.
You could simply have the oneconversation with Rabbi Fashal.
There's no wrong path.
If what you're seeking is adeeper connection to your own
sense of I think you said itbest like really just
intentionality and meaningfulengagement with your world.
How can I just be a betterperson and you're finding any
(35:00):
guidance in that in studyingJudaism at all?
You're doing it right, yeahabsolutely, absolutely.
Rabbi Fischel (35:05):
I love that.
Hannah Gaber (35:06):
Well, amen Beautiful.
Rabbi Fischel (35:08):
Awesome amen.
Thank you so much foreverything.
Hannah Gaber (35:11):
Yeah, for sure This has been Jewish.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you like what you hear,please follow or subscribe.
wherever you get your podcasts,please do tell a friend.
Word of mouth is the absolutebest way to get the word out, as
it were.
Make sure you go back andlisten to some of the other
episodes in the conversionseries, especially with what
(35:31):
Rabbi Fashal had to say.
It might all be a little moreclear now.
and stay tuned.
We've got at least one more fornow and, don't worry, my Jewish
mother is coming up.
So thank you so much forlistening and please subscribe
for more.
Jewish is a same-or production.
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