July 28, 2023 • 45 mins
How does a gay man raised in a Southern Black church end up the Executive Director of Washington DC’s LGBTQA synagogue, Bet Mishpachah? Growing up attending the African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church, Josh Maxey always had a relationship with God and religion, but after hearing his pastor talking about how gay people are destined for hell, he started pulling away from Christianity. As a religious studies minor, many routes for exploring his spirituality were available.
He found his connection to Judaism during a chance encounter with the legendary Temple Emanu-El in New York City, established in 1845, when a loving stranger invited him to sit and pray, and he found himself in tears, and at peace. Josh says that in Judaism, he found a home, where he could be 100% authentic, live his values, and follow his purpose, surrounded by diverse people and their diverse beliefs and ways of being Jewish in the world. We talk about the importance of diversifying leadership and the continual efforts needed to create a fair and equitable space, and the relationship between American Black and Jewish communities. Josh's story is more than an enlightening conversation; it is a testament to the beauty of diversity within the Jewish community and the power of authenticity in faith. Join us for a refreshing viewpoint on faith, race, and identity.
GLOSSARY:
Mishpachah: the Hebrew word for “family”.
Siddur: the Hebrew word for prayerbook, derived from the root meaning “order”, as in, the order of the words and prayers in the service.
Tikkun Olam: meaning “world repair,” is a concept that all human beings are responsible for one another and the world, and for repairing harm and damage through their actions, big or small.
Hadassah: meaning “myrtle tree” in Hebrew, it is a relatively common Jewish girl’s name and the Hebrew name of Queen Esther from the Purim story.
Kvetch: Yiddish for “complain,” meaning both to complain, and what a person who complains is called.
Halachically/halakha: Jewish law code based on the Talmud, which is the central text of Rabbic Judaism
Hebrew Israelites: Commonly called “Black Jews” until the mid-1960s, the Hebrew Israelite movement gained a following in the late 1800s and comprises people of color, primarily African Americans, “who view the biblical Israelites as their historic ancestors.” Some may not necessarily identify as Jews, and the larger group should not be confused with the “Radical Black Israelites” which the SPLC identifies as an antisemitic hate group.
More:
Temple Emanu-El is the first Reform Jewish synagogue in the United States and an architectural landmark in the Lower East Side.
Bet Misphachah, founded in 1975, is DC’s only LGBTQA synagogue. Join them for services on Fridays and the 2nd and 4th Saturdays.
The Jewish Federation of Greater Washington is a community organization that provides support for the Jewish community through social action, impact grants and other connecting and educational activities.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hannah (00:00):
So when I heard the pastor say that you know on
Sunday that K people are goingto hell, it really shook me to
my core and I'm like well, whatabout me?
What does that mean?
Josh (00:13):
Here.
Hannah (00:13):
I am being this faithful Christian going to church every
Sunday, you know praying andall that, but yet I'm going to
hell.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
So, like all this is for what?
Exactly?
Yeah, exactly.
Josh (00:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Welcome to Jewish.
I spoke to Josh at the end of2022.
Yes, I'm aware that was a whileago.
There's only one of me and, asyou may recall, that was a very
interesting time for theintersection or interaction of
the American black and Jewishcommunities.
I want to say right off the batthat we do talk about this in
(00:48):
this episode and we talk aboutidentity pretty much the whole
episode.
So thank you so much, josh, forengaging on that for all of our
sakes.
Like most of us, josh has manyidentities and his wisdom and
his lived experiences as aconvert, as a religious studies
minor, as a black man, as a gayman and infinite other things is
(01:09):
totally unique and totallyfascinating.
So thank you, josh, for sharingand y'all enjoy.
So you're the big boss at asynagogue, but life did not
begin this way for Joshua Maxey.
Hannah (01:25):
Correct, correct.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
So tell me a little bit of your origin story.
We talked about some of thisthe other day, but you know,
tell me about how you wereraised.
I think you said you wereactually raised in a family that
had a lot of religion, correct?
Hannah (01:37):
Absolutely yeah.
So I grew up in Rochester, newYork cold Rochester, new York, I
should add to a big family.
I mean I have four brothers andone sister.
Mom and dad, you know, reallydid everything they could to
like nurture us and to make surewe had everything that we
(01:58):
needed.
But I also grew up in a veryreligious household.
We, you know, were Christianand religion is such a huge part
of my family, going back to theearly 1800s, we actually
founded a church in SouthCarolina, wow, and so, yeah,
part of our, you know, annualpilgrimage, I should say, you
(02:22):
know, back down south, we alwaysattend, you know, this church,
you know, in honor of ourancestors that helped build it.
So religion was deeply rootedwithin my family.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
And can I ask which denomination, which sect?
How did you grow up observingthat?
Hannah (02:39):
Yes, so African Methodist Episcopal Zionism is a
very, very long title there'sso much I don't know about
Christianity Right.
Basically it's.
If you know anything about thechurch, take like Methodism
mixed with like kind of highchurch Episcopalianism.
(03:01):
That's that's what the church is, but it is a predominantly
black denomination within theUnited States.
And so, yeah, we would go up,you know, or go down, rather, to
South Carolina every summer andwe would be at that church
almost, you know, if not eachSunday then definitely during
(03:22):
the week for, like, bible studyor something like that or
different, you know, otherchurch events.
Actually, my great aunt, whopassed away a couple months ago,
actually still attended thatchurch and she was one of the,
you know, I guess the, theremaining descendants to attend
that church.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Wow, one of the founding mothers.
Exactly Right, that's reallysomething.
What did?
I'm just curious like?
So, in addition to just likeshowing up at the appointed
times in the appointed place,what did observation look like
for you growing up in that faith?
I mean, was it dogmatic or wasit faith based?
Does that make sense?
Hannah (04:01):
Yeah, so I would say for me it was definitely faith
based.
You know, if we weren't inchurch, you know, each Sunday,
like I said, then it was, youknow, something going on like
Bible study, or you know, Iremember, in particular for the
summers, we would, you know, goto vacation Bible school, and so
that's what I would spend myentire, you know, basically like
(04:24):
Christian camp.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
So Jewish summer camp is not that special.
Okay, got it Like in my head Ithought it was, but I guess it's
not Right.
Hannah (04:30):
Right, right.
And so you know, because ofthat and because of my
upbringing, like my faith, youknow, and God was just integral,
it was a part of who I, who I,was.
It was, you know, kind of noteven like an afterthought, you
know it's just it's who I am,it's what my family does, and so
(04:52):
this is what you know, I'mexpected to do, and this is what
I'm expected to believe.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
So would you say there wasn't a whole lot of
choice involved, it was justsort of a default behavior.
Hannah (05:03):
Absolutely yeah, it was definitely default, like you
know.
Like I said, our family foundedthis church.
Yeah, and then you know, itjust was so integral to to our
family.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
But the God part was always there for you, so that
was not.
Doesn't sound like that was acrossover issue.
Hannah (05:19):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah.
So I always say that that forme growing up, you know the
religious aspect of you know,going to church and like
celebrating the holidays.
that was, you know, more for myfamily, but I always felt this
like deep connection to God orthe divine, you know.
However you want to describethat experience.
(05:39):
And so when I was, you know,many years later, trying to
figure out, you know, where Ifit in in this world, God always
was in that equation.
It wasn't, like, you know, Iwent through like a phase of not
believing in God.
Yeah yeah, God was always inthe equation.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
So for you was it more like not so much do I
believe in God, but how do Ifind the way to commune with God
Exactly In the way that feelsright for?
Hannah (06:09):
me Exactly Commune and connect with you, know creation.
You know, I think that's a hugepart of my experience with God
is, you know, recognizing thatyou know, God is not just
founded, like the prayer books.
And you know, I find you knowso much strength and guidance
(06:31):
and like the Sidur, or you knowreciting the Psalms, but God
isn't just there.
God is in relationships.
God is in.
You know nature, and that wasthat thinking is very different
from what you know I grew upwith.
You know God is, you know, inthe Bible, and that's it.
And you know and God is in.
You know the words that thepreacher says and that's it.
(06:53):
So, yeah, that really didn'tfit me.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
So tell me about.
I mean, you had sort of a webriefly talked about this and I
don't want to downplay anyone'sjourney but compared to a lot of
the like struggle, I think alot of people find their way to
Judaism from a place of lack offaith, if that makes sense, or
like in the like.
I like the idea of there beinga God situation, but none of the
(07:20):
ones that I've seen fit me.
It doesn't sound like that wasyour journey.
You had a relatively I don'twant to say peaceful but maybe
amicable journey throughspirituality towards Judaism.
Can you just like when did itbegin?
And kind of walk me through howyou started to actually wonder
if this was the right place foryou?
Hannah (07:39):
Yeah, you know, as a gay man, that's a huge part of my
identity.
But also being a black man is ahuge part of my identity and I
would say those two you knowparts of me really did shape, I
guess, my decision to I won'tsay turn away, but I guess turn
(08:02):
away from Christianity and, like, find other avenues to express
my spirituality.
And so really my, my journeybegan, I would say, when I was
maybe 12 or 13.
Josh (08:18):
Oh, wow.
Hannah (08:20):
When I first started to realize that.
You know, I don't like girls youknow, and you know, right
around that time was when, youknow, gay marriage started being
talked about.
You know, publicly, within thepublic square, and you know that
was the first time that I hadheard someone saying this was,
(08:43):
you know, a pastor, that gaypeople are going to hell.
And you know, up until thatpoint I had known that, you know
I was always different, butlike, really didn't think
anything of it.
So when I heard the pastor saythat you know, on Sunday, that
gay people are going to hell, itreally shook me to my core and
(09:04):
I'm like well, what about me?
What does that mean?
Here I am being this faithfulChristian going to church every
Sunday, you know praying and allthat, but yet I'm going to hell
.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
So, like all this is for what?
Exactly?
Yeah, exactly.
Hannah (09:19):
So that really, I would say, was the like, the start of
my transition.
But of course you know I stayedin Christianity up until my
college years.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
So yeah, was it that simple that you left home, you
went to college, you wereexposed to other ways of
thinking, or I mean, becauseit's not simple, right, like
having, and I think for a lot ofpeople, I should probably start
by asking you where you went tocollege, because what I was
going to say was like I thinkfor a lot of people, college is
like this very secularizingexperience where you get to
(09:53):
entertain all your intellectualpursuits and like the spiritual
side of things, like I mean,maybe it comes up like if you're
doing drugs at a party.
It's not unless you go to like areligious higher institution,
like maybe Notre Dame.
Hannah (10:06):
Which I did.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Oh, you went to Notre Dame, no not Notre Dame, but
another.
I was like, okay, I went to a.
Hannah (10:12):
Catholic college Yep.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Got it.
Hannah (10:14):
St Bonaventure University.
Josh (10:16):
Okay.
Hannah (10:18):
Go bonis and so, yeah, I was actually very involved in
their campus ministry there.
Would help out with theirchurch services on Sundays was
involved.
They had this beautiful, youknow mountain retreat about an
hour away from campus and I wasinvolved in that and you know,
planning these spiritualretreats for some of the
(10:40):
students and also like adultsthat would just come and visit,
and so it was still a part of me.
And then you know, I guess Iwould say maybe my junior or
senior year is when I finallydecided to come out to my family
.
So all my friends in college,all my friends in high school
(11:02):
knew, my family also probablyknew, but Right, right, it was
something that we didn't talkabout.
You know the awkward oh, whenyou're going to get a girlfriend
while I'm too busy.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Oh, did that happen?
Those conversations all thetime, all the time yeah.
Hannah (11:18):
When are you like?
You know why aren't you dating?
Well, I don't have time to date.
I mean, I'm in studentgovernment, I'm in you know this
and that and that.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
You couldn't be like I am dating, you just don't
realize it.
Hannah (11:30):
Exactly, and so you know it was around that time I think
my junior year actually when Idecided to come out to my family
, which I did not do it in agood way.
I did it over phone.
Over the phone, it was also my21st birthday, so I had, you
know, a little drinks and me.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Oh boy, you're like.
I have an excellent idea.
Hannah (11:54):
I'm like, yeah, let's do this, I'm 21.
I'm an adult now, right, sothey can't cut me off, okay.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
How did it go?
Hannah (12:07):
The best way.
Okay, but it went well.
It went well.
You know, I called my mom and Ithink she was beyond shock.
It was probably like midnight,I could only imagine and she's
like okay, well, we can talkabout it some more tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
She was like what is going on?
Hannah (12:29):
Exactly.
But you know, over the years myfamily has been so supportive
of me and you know, of course itwas a little awkward.
But what I appreciate, which Iknow a lot of people don't have,
is, you know, my family wassupportive from day one and, yes
(12:49):
, they had questions, you know,they did ask.
You know, oh, are you sure thisisn't just a phase?
I'm like, yeah, no, it's not.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
And I think it's like do you feel like that's in
keeping with their understandingof like being a good Christian
and a good person and God islove, or do you feel like that's
more, maybe a small, I don'twant to say rebellion, but like
a small personal way of sort ofbreaking from the church on this
because of this human that theylove?
Hannah (13:20):
Yeah, I think probably a little bit of both actually,
you know, I think with myparents they're going to love me
no matter what, and they justwant what's the best for me.
So even if they do have likeany grievances towards it, they
at least don't share it with me.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
All right, I'll take it.
Hannah (13:46):
Yeah, so that coming out led me to just think about
everything else in my life.
And you know if I am going tobe, you know this churchgoer.
You know Christian from likewhat I was raised in how do I?
Fit in.
And at that time, you know, Ifelt like my only options were
(14:08):
to, you know, be a celibate manfor the rest of my life, or go
into the ministry and also be acelibate man.
Yeah like being married to awoman was never an option for me
, like I never would do that,and so I really had to think and
I pulled away from Christianity.
I started, you know, going todifferent routes.
(14:33):
So you know, looking at theEpiscopal Church you know that's
Christian, but just reallytrying to figure out like what
it is that I believe aboutspirituality and it also helped
that I was a religious studiesminor, so I was exposed to you
know different religiouspractices, but it wasn't until,
(14:56):
you know, I graduated and thenmoved here to Washington DC to
do a year of volunteering withthe homeless community and
that's where I felt like myspirituality was reignited
working with the homelesscommunity and the unhoused.
Just the amount of faith that Isaw within.
(15:18):
You know the unhoused and howthey were so spiritual, even
though they lacked.
You know some of the most youknow necessary things in life
really inspired me and so Ibegan to, you know, really put
my spirituality back intopractice and, you know,
(15:38):
recognizing that.
You know, god again is in, youknow all things not just in like
religion.
Yeah, and I guess how I came toJudaism was actually, you know,
I was visiting friends in NewYork City, where I go often Lots
of Jews.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
We like it Right.
Hannah (15:59):
Also in Rochester.
Yeah, exactly, I know right.
But yeah, I was visiting friendsin New York and you know I had
never really done like thetouristy things and so I decided
to walk around Central Parkbefore my train back to DC and I
was on the Upper East Side andI saw this beautiful building
(16:20):
and I'm like, oh, what's that?
I'm curious, let's go in.
And I walked in and it ended upbeing a synagogue.
It was Temple Emmanuel in NewYork City and I had never that
was my first time in a synagogueand I remember, you know, the
woman she was a docent or agreeter was just so warm and
(16:42):
welcoming to me and she, youknow, gave me a tour of the
archives and that was amazing initself, just seeing all the
ancient Judaica that they hadyou know, preserved for
generations, and like justreading the story of you know
(17:02):
the congregation, but the storyof the Jewish story, which you
know up until that point.
I read about things but to seeit, you know, up close and
personal, was an experience.
And then, you know, towards theend of the tour, you know, she
took me back down into the mainsanctuary and was showing me,
you know, the beautiful mosaicsand the designs and she invited
(17:26):
me to just sit and pray.
And at that moment I'm like,well, I can do that, but I
haven't prayed in a while.
Also, I'm not Jewish, so Idon't know like what's gonna we
set off prayers here Right,right.
So I mean it was I'm like okayand I did, and I remember having
(17:50):
like the most spirituallyawakening like experience that.
I've ever felt it almost feltlike this weight was lifted off
my shoulder.
Like they were tear-shed and I'mnot a huge crier, but I started
crying and I just rememberfeeling at peace and feeling at
home and once I left you know, Ithink the woman and I get
(18:18):
teary-eyed thinking about it Ithanked her and went back to DC
and immediately, you know,started researching more about
Judaism and, you know, learningmore about the theology,
(18:39):
especially like Tikkun Olam andyou know repairing the world and
what that means.
And you know, it all matched upto my core beliefs and to this
day, when I always like thinkabout the story, like my
conversion story, I always, youknow, say it started with one
(18:59):
person this one woman who wasjust so welcoming, so loving and
so embracing of me.
Didn't even know me you know,not required.
Josh (19:09):
Right right, you're one of us.
Hannah (19:11):
Right, but shared so much compassion and love with me
and actually last week Ifinally found out what her name
was, because that has alwaysbeen like my biggest regret of
not finding out what her name isand her name's Hadassah Of
course it is she has sincepassed away, but you know I was
(19:31):
sharing with a colleague of minewho actually did the research
to find out who this woman was.
You know I said I keep hermemory alive by me living out my
Jewish.
You know identity.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Her memory is a blessing.
Josh (19:45):
The best way that I can exactly, truly truly oh my gosh,
I have goosebumps.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Wow, I wonder did you ever reach out to Emmanuel and
tell them the story I did?
Hannah (19:55):
not.
I think you know a few folksthat have heard the story, who
know clergy.
Have, you know, expressed mystory to them?
Speaker 3 (20:05):
I believe, but I haven't ever personally done
that, We'll have to send themthe recording you know We'll
have to add them in the Right.
Hannah (20:12):
No, we can do better than that, but yes.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
You get where I go, but that's so.
I'm really happy that I wasactually gonna ask if you ever
sort of found out who that was.
Hannah (20:20):
Last week Wow.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
So like after we talked.
Hannah (20:23):
Yes, yes, I got an email .
Josh (20:27):
From a colleague, yeah, the sheriff, exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
That's wild.
Hannah (20:31):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
That's so.
I mean, I'm noticing a trend,and I was saying this to my
friend Nancy last night.
Every single one of you thethree of you that I've spoken to
so far, but also Rabbi Fischel,everyone I've talked to about
their conversion story alwaysends up hitting on this phrase
of home, of coming home or beinghome, or I knew I was home.
Can I just ask, like,especially being raised in and
(20:57):
you know I was raised in thistradition, so for me it's like
this is the air I breathe, thewater that I swim in, right,
like I really think about how itmight be different from other
traditions other than you know,as I got older, I really started
to mark all the ways that I'mlike that's weird, why would you
do it that way?
And then it's like again as Igot older and I think you have
to leave, right, you leave andcome back.
(21:17):
You leave and come back,leaving Tucson, leaving my
parents' house, leaving Georgiaand then coming back to Arizona.
Being like is this because Iwasn't raised Christian?
That I think that that's sofucking weird.
It's like why would you thinkabout it like that?
Why would you treat people thatway?
I don't understand why youwould talk to your kids X kind
of way, or why.
Why wouldn't you talk?
Hannah (21:35):
to your kids X way.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
And it's like, the more I think about it, I'm like
is that because I'm Jewish, Idon't get?
It right Like is it justbecause I was raised?
What is the feeling of beinghome, and how is that different
than how it felt for you in thereligion in which you were
raised?
Hannah (21:51):
Yeah.
So the simple answer to that, Iwould say, is being home to me
is being 100% authentic andbeing 100% who you were created
to be.
I couldn't be that inChristianity, at least in the
(22:13):
Christianity that I was raisedin.
It was very difficult for meand I had to make a choice.
I had to make a decision EitherI hide these aspects of myself
that I was created to be whichis not something that I think we
(22:35):
should be doing or I findanother path that will
spiritually enrich me and alsojust give me joy in everything
that I do.
I love being Jewish.
I love that Judaism hasembraced me and now I am fully
(22:59):
involved in Jewish life.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Yeah, you went all in Exactly.
Hannah (23:06):
I have a wonderful community here at Bitmesh that I
help lead, but also for mypersonal spiritual practice.
I have a wonderful community atWashington Hebrew congregation,
which is where I met RabbiFischel, who did my conversion
process with me.
(23:29):
Even the work that I'm doingwith them in terms of racial
equity and belonging, that allstems from my experience of
being able to show up to placesbeing my full self and I want
everyone to be able to do thatas well, not only if you're an
(23:52):
LGBTQ person, but if you're aJew of color you're a Jew, who
may have a disability there is aplace for everyone in Judaism.
I share all the time that.
One of the other things thatattracted me to Judaism is that
it's just such a beautiful,diverse people.
(24:13):
I think, sometimes that getslost in media portrayals of what
Judaism is.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
I am not a bearded man waving a chicken around in
the air.
That's not a thing, just so youknow Exactly Glad we cleared
that up.
Hannah (24:29):
Exactly, I actually had the chance to go to Israel the
beginning of November.
I was shocked at the diversitythere.
I'm like this is it.
This is what the world needs tosee is that being Jewish
(24:50):
doesn't look one way or doesn'tsound one way.
There are many, many differentaspects and cultures of Judaism
that I love.
That all fits and it all fits.
Josh (25:09):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
This is such a Perhaps this was a selfish
enterprise and I didn't eventhink about it when I started.
Hannah (25:22):
I was like tell me about what's great about how I
already live.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
It didn't really occur to me because I only have
my own experience, which is sofunny.
I remember a girl that I wentto grad school with who we don't
really talk anymore.
I remember we were One of mydegrees that I did was a Middle
Eastern and North AfricanStudies degree, alongside a
Judaic Studies grad certificateand a journalism degree.
(25:51):
We were having a conversationin Arizona, so in the pool one
time a bunch of us meanest kidsand kids were all like almost
there.
I remember talking aboutsomething I can't even remember
how it came up Her family.
She's the daughter of firstgeneration immigrants from
(26:13):
Middle East and Europe, I think,calls herself white passing,
and I think I said somethingabout being white passing as
well and she was like sorry,howard, you's not white.
I was like oh, Okay, yeah.
Do you want to come talk to thepeople in Savannah?
Josh (26:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Because, let me tell you I, am not white to them.
You better believe that.
So I have that lived experienceof a very ethnically ambiguous
person who, unless you don't,unless you know the curly hair
and the body type, okay, she'sprobably Jewish, which is a
pretty specific knowledge.
So I've just moved through theworld being raised how I was
(26:59):
raised, and no one really asksme about it.
The people who know me do, whichis a big reason actually that I
wanted to do this podcast.
I'm thinking of the goodfriends of mine who I met in the
South, who were like, oh,you're Jewish.
I've never been a Jewish personbefore and I'm like, actually,
you probably have.
Right but like how would thathave come up Exactly?
To which they're like oh, Ididn't think about that.
(27:20):
And then they come to me withquestions like what do I say to
people on Yom Kippur?
Is it okay to say happy YomKippur or hey, is it okay for me
to light the candles with mykid?
They were curious.
They saw it at school.
Am I allowed to do that if I'mnot Jewish?
For Hanukkah?
It's like you can do whateveryou want.
You know, all the time all thequestions bring them.
The other thing that'sinteresting to me is it's not
(27:43):
even like you don't have to comein here with any intentions,
right?
Like you don't have to come inhere asking me to join Torah
study or see the memorabilia.
Whoever you are, you're welcometo walk in the door.
Hannah (27:54):
It doesn't matter.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
And I guess where I'm going with this is like are
there parts of your experienceas a Jewish person that where
you can feel these other partsof your identity?
Like, how is it differentliving those identities as a
Jewish person?
Is there a difference in theway you move through the world
and specifically inside of thiscommunity, from before you
(28:18):
started that journey?
Hannah (28:20):
Yeah, well, I would say the difference.
Now that I've seen is I'm morecomfortable, you know.
Josh (28:27):
Oh yeah.
Hannah (28:28):
And walking, you know, in Jewish spaces.
You know, Because I think inthe beginning, you know, there
was awkwardness to it because,kind of like what you were
explaining, I walk into asynagogue.
I can't turn off my blackness,you know I can.
(28:48):
Maybe you know, turn off mebeing gay although I joke when
people are always like, oh,you're gay.
I'm like really sometimes Ifeel like there were rainbows
coming out of my mouth, butanyways, oh boy.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
The way we see ourselves.
We see how other people see it.
It's really yeah okay.
Hannah (29:09):
And so, yeah, so I can't turn that off.
And you know, I think there was, you know, some level of
discomfort, you know awkwardinstances where people, would
you know, ask me.
Oh, you know, immediately askme.
I'm like, oh, are you Jewish?
And then we'll have to, youknow, go through like laundry
(29:32):
list of everything.
But I think that's changing,especially here in the DC Jewish
community, because there's beena lot of effort to, I guess,
change the narrative you know,not only within synagogues, but
(29:53):
just within, like all Jewishspaces about like what it means
to be Jewish, and who is Jewish?
You know, I'm on the board ofdirectors here at the Jewish
Federation of Washington and sowe're doing that work there, and
I also do some work with thereform movement as well, and so
(30:15):
these are conversations that arenecessary and they're happening
and I think we're moving in theright direction, where, you
know, kind of like what I saidin the beginning, is that
everyone who walks into Jewishspaces feels like they're
welcome, and not only feel likethey welcome, but feel like they
belong, and that they don'thave to defend their presence.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Yeah, how refreshing, as a Jewish person, to consider
a time when we don't have todefend our presence, right, I
know, or just our existence atall.
Hannah (30:47):
It's such a weird time.
Josh (30:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
And forgive me if this is an insensitive question,
but it's.
You know, part of the reason Idid this is because I've had a
lot of my friends.
In particular, I can think of,like you know, three of my black
male friends coming to me beinglike what do you think about
Kanye?
Josh (31:05):
Tell me about what you think about Kyrie.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
And I'm like yeah, do we have to do it over Instagram
?
Hannah (31:11):
Messenger.
Josh (31:12):
Do you?
Speaker 3 (31:12):
want to like, have a coffee, like how it's not.
I mean, it's complicated, right, do you?
Are you finding in thisparticular, in this specific
moment, especially in Americanculture, are you finding
conflict between your identitiesas or, shall I say, are you
finding others have anexpectation of conflict between
(31:32):
your identities?
Hannah (31:35):
Yeah Well, I would say personally like it has been a
challenge, for a couple ofreasons I think.
Although I feel verycomfortable within the Jewish
community, you know I still,when we're talking about
anti-semitism and anti-racism, Iget a little nervous about like
(31:59):
speaking out publicly, becauseI don't want you know my
comments to be mischievous oranything like that.
So that was a challenge and itwas a challenge with other Jews
of color that I spoke with,having the same sentiments, and
I would say the other challengethat I've seen and felt is that,
(32:23):
taking like what you know,kanye West or you know Kairi
said I worried and I still worrythat it creates an unsafe place
for Jews of color within ourcommunity.
Yeah, you know, I remember likeI was gonna say bitching, but I
(32:47):
guess I'm like you can saybitching, we bitch, Kvachin.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Kvachin works too.
Hannah (32:52):
But really just being so angry.
You know, after seeing all this.
You know I was speaking withanother friend of mine who does
a lot of work for inclusion.
I'm like you know Kairi andKanye basically have like set us
back and you know the work thatwe're doing especially in
creating places of belonging forJews of color.
Because now I worry that, youknow, if you know a Jew of color
(33:16):
walks into a place, they'll bethought of, as you know, being a
hero Israelite, which is not,you know, which is not the case.
And then I also worry becausethere are, you know, I guess,
organizations or Jews of colorwho you know are not a part of,
(33:38):
like the Hebrew-Israelitemovement or especially those,
like you know, french groups,yeah, but do through tradition
or through whatever.
Have adopted Jewish practices,but they may not be affiliated
with you know, like a movement,or, you know, holocically
recognize.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Or they may not even realize these are Jewish
practices, Right right, right.
Hannah (34:02):
And so I wonder what you know how that relationship
between you know, those folksand, I guess, mainstream Judaism
will be like.
Josh (34:13):
Yeah.
Hannah (34:15):
It is a line.
You know that I have to walksometimes as a black person.
But I'm hoping that you know,as we continue on and you know,
continuously fight anti-Semitism, that we recognize as a
community that fighting bothanti-Semitism and anti-racism
(34:40):
you know they're one and thesame, they're linked.
Josh (34:41):
Yeah, they're linked to each other.
Hannah (34:44):
You know it's all about.
You know, getting rid of whitesupremacy, yeah, and if we
recognize that, you knowanti-Semitism and anti-racism
are one and the same.
You know we're fighting whitesupremacy.
I think we'll then find moredialogue between the black
community and the Jewishcommunity.
Yeah, you know where we'reworking together and actually
(35:06):
having those deep conversations.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Yeah, I was talking to a friend of mine over the
weekend who is a producer, orlast week who is a producer in
Atlanta and he has a rich familyhistory.
This is a total tangent of he'sfrom South Philly and his dad
was a producer and he was like,so he has this really rich
tradition of like inheritedknowledge of the like Jewish
(35:29):
black music scene and the thingthat I'm hearing when he's
telling me these stories of like, oh, here's another you know
R&B song produced by a Jewishperson with it's black music
produced by Jews, and I'm likeyeah, because we were locked out
of the same rooms.
Yeah, Right, so if you're goingto lock us out of the rooms,
we're going to look at eachother and be like all right, who
else is here?
Right, Okay, let's just do itourselves.
(35:50):
So we'll just do it.
Hannah (35:51):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
And it breaks my heart that that narrative is
lost.
Hannah (35:56):
Right Yep.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
Because that's such a big part of it too, especially
the specific lived Americanexperience of both people of
African descent and of Jewishextraction.
My grandfather had to lie.
He had, I think I can'tremember the exact narrative but
basically he bought a house ina part of Chicago that Jews were
(36:19):
not allowed to live, and myaunt still has memories and she
told me this about him saying toher hey, make sure when you go
to school you don't tell anyonewhere we live.
Wow, yeah.
Or you know and conversely, like, just make sure that you don't
mention to anyone that wereJewish, that house could have
been taken away from them ifthey had found, been found out
secretly being Jewish in thisneighborhood.
Not allowed.
Josh (36:40):
Right.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
So I mean, like you say it's the same, it's the same
struggle, like it doesn'tmatter, and this is the thing.
The only takeaway is like therecan be more than one victim.
Hannah (36:51):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
And we can be victimized or whatever.
We can experience multiplethings Exactly.
So it's not an either or thedichotomy of me having to choose
who is the bigger victim.
Exactly, I'm like I can't,we're not doing that.
It's a false conversation, it'sfalse Right.
You mentioned that you didBible study every week, and I'm
(37:14):
so curious about that becauseyou know, of course don't ask me
if I remember anything.
Josh (37:20):
That actually tells me a lot.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Well, and the only thing I'm curious about is like,
because you do Torah study nowtoo right?
How are they different fromeach other?
Were you lectured at versustalked to?
Hannah (37:35):
I don't know, yeah, that's that's.
I'm glad you mentioned that,cause I think one of the other
beauties that I find in Judaismis being able to question.
I say all the time that atleast in the branch of
Christianity that I grew up in,it was pay, pray and obey, and
you don't deviate out of that,and so Can you decode that for
(37:57):
me?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So pray like you know, go tochurch, pay so and I would say
most Christian denominations,you know, you give tithes or
offerings.
Josh (38:13):
The collection play would be what I would love.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Yeah.
Hannah (38:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they passed the collection play, you
know, and that's all.
For, like, the building up ofthe kingdom of God is what we
were taught, and then obey,basically obeying.
You know the word of God, butthe authorities which are like
the pastors, and so in all ofthat there was no question like
this is, this, is what you do,and so when I first went to a
(38:40):
tourist study, it was veryconfused as to what are all
these people yelling at therabbi about, like you know what
I'm saying?
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Wait, I thought who is the rabbi?
Right, right, right.
Hannah (38:54):
I'm like what?
Like the rabbi doesn't have,like you know, final authority
on what the text means.
Like, what are we talking about?
Josh (39:00):
Why is there a discussion?
Hannah (39:03):
But that's just so beautiful and I find tourist
study to be very engaging andvery enriching for me because
you know I get to hear, like youknow, not only the rabbi's
perspective but like theperspective of, you know, my
peers, and then also like learnyou know something new, instead
of being preached at which youknow, when I was in, you know,
(39:27):
bible school.
That's basically what it was.
It was being preached at.
with no real dialogue, you onlydie.
I mean, if there was dialogueor any conversation, you know
you do this or you're gonna goto hell Like that's all.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
Was it like hey, did you read the scripture?
Does that make sense?
Like cause?
I mean, I think I've had otherpeople tell me that their
experience with religion isbasically like we weren't really
even asked to read anything.
It was more like there wassomeone on the stage they told
us what to think, and then we,like, went home with their
lesson about the thing.
Hannah (39:57):
Exactly, yep, yeah, so I mean Bible study like privately
was encouraged, but in terms oflike the formal, like church
setting, yeah, it basically was.
You know the pastorinterpreting some texts and then
, telling us what it means, andthat's all.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
Yeah, yeah.
So it was almost like moreabout the social aspect, I guess
, about just being theretogether.
Josh (40:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
Tell me about the work you're doing now.
Tell me about Beit Mishpacha,and tell me about the work that
you, that sort of drives your Ithink probably drives your life,
would not be an overstatement,would that be correct.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hannah (40:39):
So I am the executive director of Beit Mishpacha and
we are DC's only LGBTQ synagogue, and so we'll be celebrating
actually 50 years in thecommunity in 2025, which so
happens to coincide with WorldPride which will be here in DC.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Oh, by design?
No doubt it's a conspiracy.
Oh wait, no, we don't makethose jokes sorry, sorry.
Hannah (41:05):
And so, yeah, I do a lot of outreach to, you know, lgbtq
Jews in the area.
We have services each Fridaynight, located at the JCC and
DuPont Circle, and also on thesecond and fourth Saturdays of
the month.
So my day to day is just a lotof outreach, you know, attending
(41:28):
events, meetings, but you know,and just trying to get the word
out, you know that there is aplace for LGBTQ, jews.
The gospel yeah right, thegospel of the LGBTQ Jews right
Religion jokes.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
Exactly the gospel of the gay Jews they were right
Solid yeah okay.
Hannah (41:47):
So I mean, it's a lot of like community outreach, which
I love, so I'm getting to knowso many people and then so
that's my paying job, I wouldsay.
And then, like I mentioned, I'mon the board of Jewish
Federation here in DC.
I'm also on the Social ActionCommittee for the Reform
(42:10):
Movement, which right now we'reactually working on reparations,
which is very interesting atthis time, very interesting.
And I'm also, you know, amember of Washington Hebrew
Congregation.
So I do a lot of work withtheir racial equity and
belonging work as well.
So, most recently, we're workingon inclusion for folks with
(42:32):
disabilities and how we can youknow reimagine what our space
looks like and what thecongregant or visitor experience
is.
You know at Shabbat services,or just you know entering into
our building.
Josh (42:45):
Yeah.
Hannah (42:47):
And so, yeah, I have fully put my entire self into
Jewish life since, I guess, myofficial conversion a couple of
years ago.
And it drives me, it's whatgives me joy, it's what keeps me
motivated, and so I say, as,how many years that I have on
(43:13):
this earth it will be dedicatedto Judaism and, you know, making
sure that all Jews you knowhave a place to call home and
making sure that we all have aplace to belong.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
What remains yet for us to work on and do?
What should we be vigilant of?
And thinking about from yourperspective.
Hannah (43:36):
I think we have to strive to continue to build
community, and I am like a hugefan of just interpersonal
relationships and like buildingthose and you know, especially
when it comes to people of colorwithin the Jewish community,
there has to be a way for us toinvite you know, Jews of color
(44:04):
to the table.
So, you know, one thing thatwe're working on at Federation
is, you know, what does themakeup of our board of directors
looks like and why does it lookthat way?
And you know, is it reallyreflective of, you know, the
entire community?
Yeah, and so there has to bemore interpersonal relationships
(44:24):
, I think, and communitybuilding amongst each other.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
Well, that seems not easy but doable, right, Exactly
exactly.
It is not your job to finishthe task, but neither may you
desist from the work.
Yes exactly.
Thanks for listening to Jew Ish.
If you like what you hear,please give us a follow and
don't forget to tell a friendwho might be a little Jew
(44:50):
curious.
It really is the best way tohelp people find us.
Also, make sure you check outthe show notes for a glossary of
terms you might have heard.
In this week's episode, jew Ishis a Say More production.
So when I heard the pastor say that you know on
Sunday that K people are goingto hell, it really shook me to
my core and I'm like well, whatabout me?
What does that mean?
Josh (00:13):
Here.
Hannah (00:13):
I am being this faithful Christian going to church every
Sunday, you know praying andall that, but yet I'm going to
hell.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
So, like all this is for what?
Exactly?
Yeah, exactly.
Josh (00:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Welcome to Jewish.
I spoke to Josh at the end of2022.
Yes, I'm aware that was a whileago.
There's only one of me and, asyou may recall, that was a very
interesting time for theintersection or interaction of
the American black and Jewishcommunities.
I want to say right off the batthat we do talk about this in
(00:48):
this episode and we talk aboutidentity pretty much the whole
episode.
So thank you so much, josh, forengaging on that for all of our
sakes.
Like most of us, josh has manyidentities and his wisdom and
his lived experiences as aconvert, as a religious studies
minor, as a black man, as a gayman and infinite other things is
(01:09):
totally unique and totallyfascinating.
So thank you, josh, for sharingand y'all enjoy.
So you're the big boss at asynagogue, but life did not
begin this way for Joshua Maxey.
Hannah (01:25):
Correct, correct.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
So tell me a little bit of your origin story.
We talked about some of thisthe other day, but you know,
tell me about how you wereraised.
I think you said you wereactually raised in a family that
had a lot of religion, correct?
Hannah (01:37):
Absolutely yeah.
So I grew up in Rochester, newYork cold Rochester, new York, I
should add to a big family.
I mean I have four brothers andone sister.
Mom and dad, you know, reallydid everything they could to
like nurture us and to make surewe had everything that we
(01:58):
needed.
But I also grew up in a veryreligious household.
We, you know, were Christianand religion is such a huge part
of my family, going back to theearly 1800s, we actually
founded a church in SouthCarolina, wow, and so, yeah,
part of our, you know, annualpilgrimage, I should say, you
(02:22):
know, back down south, we alwaysattend, you know, this church,
you know, in honor of ourancestors that helped build it.
So religion was deeply rootedwithin my family.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
And can I ask which denomination, which sect?
How did you grow up observingthat?
Hannah (02:39):
Yes, so African Methodist Episcopal Zionism is a
very, very long title there'sso much I don't know about
Christianity Right.
Basically it's.
If you know anything about thechurch, take like Methodism
mixed with like kind of highchurch Episcopalianism.
(03:01):
That's that's what the church is, but it is a predominantly
black denomination within theUnited States.
And so, yeah, we would go up,you know, or go down, rather, to
South Carolina every summer andwe would be at that church
almost, you know, if not eachSunday then definitely during
(03:22):
the week for, like, bible studyor something like that or
different, you know, otherchurch events.
Actually, my great aunt, whopassed away a couple months ago,
actually still attended thatchurch and she was one of the,
you know, I guess the, theremaining descendants to attend
that church.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Wow, one of the founding mothers.
Exactly Right, that's reallysomething.
What did?
I'm just curious like?
So, in addition to just likeshowing up at the appointed
times in the appointed place,what did observation look like
for you growing up in that faith?
I mean, was it dogmatic or wasit faith based?
Does that make sense?
Hannah (04:01):
Yeah, so I would say for me it was definitely faith
based.
You know, if we weren't inchurch, you know, each Sunday,
like I said, then it was, youknow, something going on like
Bible study, or you know, Iremember, in particular for the
summers, we would, you know, goto vacation Bible school, and so
that's what I would spend myentire, you know, basically like
(04:24):
Christian camp.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
So Jewish summer camp is not that special.
Okay, got it Like in my head Ithought it was, but I guess it's
not Right.
Hannah (04:30):
Right, right.
And so you know, because ofthat and because of my
upbringing, like my faith, youknow, and God was just integral,
it was a part of who I, who I,was.
It was, you know, kind of noteven like an afterthought, you
know it's just it's who I am,it's what my family does, and so
(04:52):
this is what you know, I'mexpected to do, and this is what
I'm expected to believe.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
So would you say there wasn't a whole lot of
choice involved, it was justsort of a default behavior.
Hannah (05:03):
Absolutely yeah, it was definitely default, like you
know.
Like I said, our family foundedthis church.
Yeah, and then you know, itjust was so integral to to our
family.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
But the God part was always there for you, so that
was not.
Doesn't sound like that was acrossover issue.
Hannah (05:19):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah.
So I always say that that forme growing up, you know the
religious aspect of you know,going to church and like
celebrating the holidays.
that was, you know, more for myfamily, but I always felt this
like deep connection to God orthe divine, you know.
However you want to describethat experience.
(05:39):
And so when I was, you know,many years later, trying to
figure out, you know, where Ifit in in this world, God always
was in that equation.
It wasn't, like, you know, Iwent through like a phase of not
believing in God.
Yeah yeah, God was always inthe equation.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
So for you was it more like not so much do I
believe in God, but how do Ifind the way to commune with God
Exactly In the way that feelsright for?
Hannah (06:09):
me Exactly Commune and connect with you, know creation.
You know, I think that's a hugepart of my experience with God
is, you know, recognizing thatyou know, God is not just
founded, like the prayer books.
And you know, I find you knowso much strength and guidance
(06:31):
and like the Sidur, or you knowreciting the Psalms, but God
isn't just there.
God is in relationships.
God is in.
You know nature, and that wasthat thinking is very different
from what you know I grew upwith.
You know God is, you know, inthe Bible, and that's it.
And you know and God is in.
You know the words that thepreacher says and that's it.
(06:53):
So, yeah, that really didn'tfit me.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
So tell me about.
I mean, you had sort of a webriefly talked about this and I
don't want to downplay anyone'sjourney but compared to a lot of
the like struggle, I think alot of people find their way to
Judaism from a place of lack offaith, if that makes sense, or
like in the like.
I like the idea of there beinga God situation, but none of the
(07:20):
ones that I've seen fit me.
It doesn't sound like that wasyour journey.
You had a relatively I don'twant to say peaceful but maybe
amicable journey throughspirituality towards Judaism.
Can you just like when did itbegin?
And kind of walk me through howyou started to actually wonder
if this was the right place foryou?
Hannah (07:39):
Yeah, you know, as a gay man, that's a huge part of my
identity.
But also being a black man is ahuge part of my identity and I
would say those two you knowparts of me really did shape, I
guess, my decision to I won'tsay turn away, but I guess turn
(08:02):
away from Christianity and, like, find other avenues to express
my spirituality.
And so really my, my journeybegan, I would say, when I was
maybe 12 or 13.
Josh (08:18):
Oh, wow.
Hannah (08:20):
When I first started to realize that.
You know, I don't like girls youknow, and you know, right
around that time was when, youknow, gay marriage started being
talked about.
You know, publicly, within thepublic square, and you know that
was the first time that I hadheard someone saying this was,
(08:43):
you know, a pastor, that gaypeople are going to hell.
And you know, up until thatpoint I had known that, you know
I was always different, butlike, really didn't think
anything of it.
So when I heard the pastor saythat you know, on Sunday, that
gay people are going to hell, itreally shook me to my core and
(09:04):
I'm like well, what about me?
What does that mean?
Here I am being this faithfulChristian going to church every
Sunday, you know praying and allthat, but yet I'm going to hell
.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
So, like all this is for what?
Exactly?
Yeah, exactly.
Hannah (09:19):
So that really, I would say, was the like, the start of
my transition.
But of course you know I stayedin Christianity up until my
college years.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
So yeah, was it that simple that you left home, you
went to college, you wereexposed to other ways of
thinking, or I mean, becauseit's not simple, right, like
having, and I think for a lot ofpeople, I should probably start
by asking you where you went tocollege, because what I was
going to say was like I thinkfor a lot of people, college is
like this very secularizingexperience where you get to
(09:53):
entertain all your intellectualpursuits and like the spiritual
side of things, like I mean,maybe it comes up like if you're
doing drugs at a party.
It's not unless you go to like areligious higher institution,
like maybe Notre Dame.
Hannah (10:06):
Which I did.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Oh, you went to Notre Dame, no not Notre Dame, but
another.
I was like, okay, I went to a.
Hannah (10:12):
Catholic college Yep.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Got it.
Hannah (10:14):
St Bonaventure University.
Josh (10:16):
Okay.
Hannah (10:18):
Go bonis and so, yeah, I was actually very involved in
their campus ministry there.
Would help out with theirchurch services on Sundays was
involved.
They had this beautiful, youknow mountain retreat about an
hour away from campus and I wasinvolved in that and you know,
planning these spiritualretreats for some of the
(10:40):
students and also like adultsthat would just come and visit,
and so it was still a part of me.
And then you know, I guess Iwould say maybe my junior or
senior year is when I finallydecided to come out to my family
.
So all my friends in college,all my friends in high school
(11:02):
knew, my family also probablyknew, but Right, right, it was
something that we didn't talkabout.
You know the awkward oh, whenyou're going to get a girlfriend
while I'm too busy.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Oh, did that happen?
Those conversations all thetime, all the time yeah.
Hannah (11:18):
When are you like?
You know why aren't you dating?
Well, I don't have time to date.
I mean, I'm in studentgovernment, I'm in you know this
and that and that.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
You couldn't be like I am dating, you just don't
realize it.
Hannah (11:30):
Exactly, and so you know it was around that time I think
my junior year actually when Idecided to come out to my family
, which I did not do it in agood way.
I did it over phone.
Over the phone, it was also my21st birthday, so I had, you
know, a little drinks and me.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Oh boy, you're like.
I have an excellent idea.
Hannah (11:54):
I'm like, yeah, let's do this, I'm 21.
I'm an adult now, right, sothey can't cut me off, okay.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
How did it go?
Hannah (12:07):
The best way.
Okay, but it went well.
It went well.
You know, I called my mom and Ithink she was beyond shock.
It was probably like midnight,I could only imagine and she's
like okay, well, we can talkabout it some more tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
She was like what is going on?
Hannah (12:29):
Exactly.
But you know, over the years myfamily has been so supportive
of me and you know, of course itwas a little awkward.
But what I appreciate, which Iknow a lot of people don't have,
is, you know, my family wassupportive from day one and, yes
(12:49):
, they had questions, you know,they did ask.
You know, oh, are you sure thisisn't just a phase?
I'm like, yeah, no, it's not.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
And I think it's like do you feel like that's in
keeping with their understandingof like being a good Christian
and a good person and God islove, or do you feel like that's
more, maybe a small, I don'twant to say rebellion, but like
a small personal way of sort ofbreaking from the church on this
because of this human that theylove?
Hannah (13:20):
Yeah, I think probably a little bit of both actually,
you know, I think with myparents they're going to love me
no matter what, and they justwant what's the best for me.
So even if they do have likeany grievances towards it, they
at least don't share it with me.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
All right, I'll take it.
Hannah (13:46):
Yeah, so that coming out led me to just think about
everything else in my life.
And you know if I am going tobe, you know this churchgoer.
You know Christian from likewhat I was raised in how do I?
Fit in.
And at that time, you know, Ifelt like my only options were
(14:08):
to, you know, be a celibate manfor the rest of my life, or go
into the ministry and also be acelibate man.
Yeah like being married to awoman was never an option for me
, like I never would do that,and so I really had to think and
I pulled away from Christianity.
I started, you know, going todifferent routes.
(14:33):
So you know, looking at theEpiscopal Church you know that's
Christian, but just reallytrying to figure out like what
it is that I believe aboutspirituality and it also helped
that I was a religious studiesminor, so I was exposed to you
know different religiouspractices, but it wasn't until,
(14:56):
you know, I graduated and thenmoved here to Washington DC to
do a year of volunteering withthe homeless community and
that's where I felt like myspirituality was reignited
working with the homelesscommunity and the unhoused.
Just the amount of faith that Isaw within.
(15:18):
You know the unhoused and howthey were so spiritual, even
though they lacked.
You know some of the most youknow necessary things in life
really inspired me and so Ibegan to, you know, really put
my spirituality back intopractice and, you know,
(15:38):
recognizing that.
You know, god again is in, youknow all things not just in like
religion.
Yeah, and I guess how I came toJudaism was actually, you know,
I was visiting friends in NewYork City, where I go often Lots
of Jews.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
We like it Right.
Hannah (15:59):
Also in Rochester.
Yeah, exactly, I know right.
But yeah, I was visiting friendsin New York and you know I had
never really done like thetouristy things and so I decided
to walk around Central Parkbefore my train back to DC and I
was on the Upper East Side andI saw this beautiful building
(16:20):
and I'm like, oh, what's that?
I'm curious, let's go in.
And I walked in and it ended upbeing a synagogue.
It was Temple Emmanuel in NewYork City and I had never that
was my first time in a synagogueand I remember, you know, the
woman she was a docent or agreeter was just so warm and
(16:42):
welcoming to me and she, youknow, gave me a tour of the
archives and that was amazing initself, just seeing all the
ancient Judaica that they hadyou know, preserved for
generations, and like justreading the story of you know
(17:02):
the congregation, but the storyof the Jewish story, which you
know up until that point.
I read about things but to seeit, you know, up close and
personal, was an experience.
And then, you know, towards theend of the tour, you know, she
took me back down into the mainsanctuary and was showing me,
you know, the beautiful mosaicsand the designs and she invited
(17:26):
me to just sit and pray.
And at that moment I'm like,well, I can do that, but I
haven't prayed in a while.
Also, I'm not Jewish, so Idon't know like what's gonna we
set off prayers here Right,right.
So I mean it was I'm like okayand I did, and I remember having
(17:50):
like the most spirituallyawakening like experience that.
I've ever felt it almost feltlike this weight was lifted off
my shoulder.
Like they were tear-shed and I'mnot a huge crier, but I started
crying and I just rememberfeeling at peace and feeling at
home and once I left you know, Ithink the woman and I get
(18:18):
teary-eyed thinking about it Ithanked her and went back to DC
and immediately, you know,started researching more about
Judaism and, you know, learningmore about the theology,
(18:39):
especially like Tikkun Olam andyou know repairing the world and
what that means.
And you know, it all matched upto my core beliefs and to this
day, when I always like thinkabout the story, like my
conversion story, I always, youknow, say it started with one
(18:59):
person this one woman who wasjust so welcoming, so loving and
so embracing of me.
Didn't even know me you know,not required.
Josh (19:09):
Right right, you're one of us.
Hannah (19:11):
Right, but shared so much compassion and love with me
and actually last week Ifinally found out what her name
was, because that has alwaysbeen like my biggest regret of
not finding out what her name isand her name's Hadassah Of
course it is she has sincepassed away, but you know I was
(19:31):
sharing with a colleague of minewho actually did the research
to find out who this woman was.
You know I said I keep hermemory alive by me living out my
Jewish.
You know identity.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Her memory is a blessing.
Josh (19:45):
The best way that I can exactly, truly truly oh my gosh,
I have goosebumps.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Wow, I wonder did you ever reach out to Emmanuel and
tell them the story I did?
Hannah (19:55):
not.
I think you know a few folksthat have heard the story, who
know clergy.
Have, you know, expressed mystory to them?
Speaker 3 (20:05):
I believe, but I haven't ever personally done
that, We'll have to send themthe recording you know We'll
have to add them in the Right.
Hannah (20:12):
No, we can do better than that, but yes.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
You get where I go, but that's so.
I'm really happy that I wasactually gonna ask if you ever
sort of found out who that was.
Hannah (20:20):
Last week Wow.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
So like after we talked.
Hannah (20:23):
Yes, yes, I got an email .
Josh (20:27):
From a colleague, yeah, the sheriff, exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
That's wild.
Hannah (20:31):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
That's so.
I mean, I'm noticing a trend,and I was saying this to my
friend Nancy last night.
Every single one of you thethree of you that I've spoken to
so far, but also Rabbi Fischel,everyone I've talked to about
their conversion story alwaysends up hitting on this phrase
of home, of coming home or beinghome, or I knew I was home.
Can I just ask, like,especially being raised in and
(20:57):
you know I was raised in thistradition, so for me it's like
this is the air I breathe, thewater that I swim in, right,
like I really think about how itmight be different from other
traditions other than you know,as I got older, I really started
to mark all the ways that I'mlike that's weird, why would you
do it that way?
And then it's like again as Igot older and I think you have
to leave, right, you leave andcome back.
(21:17):
You leave and come back,leaving Tucson, leaving my
parents' house, leaving Georgiaand then coming back to Arizona.
Being like is this because Iwasn't raised Christian?
That I think that that's sofucking weird.
It's like why would you thinkabout it like that?
Why would you treat people thatway?
I don't understand why youwould talk to your kids X kind
of way, or why.
Why wouldn't you talk?
Hannah (21:35):
to your kids X way.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
And it's like, the more I think about it, I'm like
is that because I'm Jewish, Idon't get?
It right Like is it justbecause I was raised?
What is the feeling of beinghome, and how is that different
than how it felt for you in thereligion in which you were
raised?
Hannah (21:51):
Yeah.
So the simple answer to that, Iwould say, is being home to me
is being 100% authentic andbeing 100% who you were created
to be.
I couldn't be that inChristianity, at least in the
(22:13):
Christianity that I was raisedin.
It was very difficult for meand I had to make a choice.
I had to make a decision EitherI hide these aspects of myself
that I was created to be whichis not something that I think we
(22:35):
should be doing or I findanother path that will
spiritually enrich me and alsojust give me joy in everything
that I do.
I love being Jewish.
I love that Judaism hasembraced me and now I am fully
(22:59):
involved in Jewish life.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Yeah, you went all in Exactly.
Hannah (23:06):
I have a wonderful community here at Bitmesh that I
help lead, but also for mypersonal spiritual practice.
I have a wonderful community atWashington Hebrew congregation,
which is where I met RabbiFischel, who did my conversion
process with me.
(23:29):
Even the work that I'm doingwith them in terms of racial
equity and belonging, that allstems from my experience of
being able to show up to placesbeing my full self and I want
everyone to be able to do thatas well, not only if you're an
(23:52):
LGBTQ person, but if you're aJew of color you're a Jew, who
may have a disability there is aplace for everyone in Judaism.
I share all the time that.
One of the other things thatattracted me to Judaism is that
it's just such a beautiful,diverse people.
(24:13):
I think, sometimes that getslost in media portrayals of what
Judaism is.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
I am not a bearded man waving a chicken around in
the air.
That's not a thing, just so youknow Exactly Glad we cleared
that up.
Hannah (24:29):
Exactly, I actually had the chance to go to Israel the
beginning of November.
I was shocked at the diversitythere.
I'm like this is it.
This is what the world needs tosee is that being Jewish
(24:50):
doesn't look one way or doesn'tsound one way.
There are many, many differentaspects and cultures of Judaism
that I love.
That all fits and it all fits.
Josh (25:09):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
This is such a Perhaps this was a selfish
enterprise and I didn't eventhink about it when I started.
Hannah (25:22):
I was like tell me about what's great about how I
already live.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
It didn't really occur to me because I only have
my own experience, which is sofunny.
I remember a girl that I wentto grad school with who we don't
really talk anymore.
I remember we were One of mydegrees that I did was a Middle
Eastern and North AfricanStudies degree, alongside a
Judaic Studies grad certificateand a journalism degree.
(25:51):
We were having a conversationin Arizona, so in the pool one
time a bunch of us meanest kidsand kids were all like almost
there.
I remember talking aboutsomething I can't even remember
how it came up Her family.
She's the daughter of firstgeneration immigrants from
(26:13):
Middle East and Europe, I think,calls herself white passing,
and I think I said somethingabout being white passing as
well and she was like sorry,howard, you's not white.
I was like oh, Okay, yeah.
Do you want to come talk to thepeople in Savannah?
Josh (26:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Because, let me tell you I, am not white to them.
You better believe that.
So I have that lived experienceof a very ethnically ambiguous
person who, unless you don't,unless you know the curly hair
and the body type, okay, she'sprobably Jewish, which is a
pretty specific knowledge.
So I've just moved through theworld being raised how I was
(26:59):
raised, and no one really asksme about it.
The people who know me do, whichis a big reason actually that I
wanted to do this podcast.
I'm thinking of the goodfriends of mine who I met in the
South, who were like, oh,you're Jewish.
I've never been a Jewish personbefore and I'm like, actually,
you probably have.
Right but like how would thathave come up Exactly?
To which they're like oh, Ididn't think about that.
(27:20):
And then they come to me withquestions like what do I say to
people on Yom Kippur?
Is it okay to say happy YomKippur or hey, is it okay for me
to light the candles with mykid?
They were curious.
They saw it at school.
Am I allowed to do that if I'mnot Jewish?
For Hanukkah?
It's like you can do whateveryou want.
You know, all the time all thequestions bring them.
The other thing that'sinteresting to me is it's not
(27:43):
even like you don't have to comein here with any intentions,
right?
Like you don't have to come inhere asking me to join Torah
study or see the memorabilia.
Whoever you are, you're welcometo walk in the door.
Hannah (27:54):
It doesn't matter.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
And I guess where I'm going with this is like are
there parts of your experienceas a Jewish person that where
you can feel these other partsof your identity?
Like, how is it differentliving those identities as a
Jewish person?
Is there a difference in theway you move through the world
and specifically inside of thiscommunity, from before you
(28:18):
started that journey?
Hannah (28:20):
Yeah, well, I would say the difference.
Now that I've seen is I'm morecomfortable, you know.
Josh (28:27):
Oh yeah.
Hannah (28:28):
And walking, you know, in Jewish spaces.
You know, Because I think inthe beginning, you know, there
was awkwardness to it because,kind of like what you were
explaining, I walk into asynagogue.
I can't turn off my blackness,you know I can.
(28:48):
Maybe you know, turn off mebeing gay although I joke when
people are always like, oh,you're gay.
I'm like really sometimes Ifeel like there were rainbows
coming out of my mouth, butanyways, oh boy.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
The way we see ourselves.
We see how other people see it.
It's really yeah okay.
Hannah (29:09):
And so, yeah, so I can't turn that off.
And you know, I think there was, you know, some level of
discomfort, you know awkwardinstances where people, would
you know, ask me.
Oh, you know, immediately askme.
I'm like, oh, are you Jewish?
And then we'll have to, youknow, go through like laundry
(29:32):
list of everything.
But I think that's changing,especially here in the DC Jewish
community, because there's beena lot of effort to, I guess,
change the narrative you know,not only within synagogues, but
(29:53):
just within, like all Jewishspaces about like what it means
to be Jewish, and who is Jewish?
You know, I'm on the board ofdirectors here at the Jewish
Federation of Washington and sowe're doing that work there, and
I also do some work with thereform movement as well, and so
(30:15):
these are conversations that arenecessary and they're happening
and I think we're moving in theright direction, where, you
know, kind of like what I saidin the beginning, is that
everyone who walks into Jewishspaces feels like they're
welcome, and not only feel likethey welcome, but feel like they
belong, and that they don'thave to defend their presence.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Yeah, how refreshing, as a Jewish person, to consider
a time when we don't have todefend our presence, right, I
know, or just our existence atall.
Hannah (30:47):
It's such a weird time.
Josh (30:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
And forgive me if this is an insensitive question,
but it's.
You know, part of the reason Idid this is because I've had a
lot of my friends.
In particular, I can think of,like you know, three of my black
male friends coming to me beinglike what do you think about
Kanye?
Josh (31:05):
Tell me about what you think about Kyrie.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
And I'm like yeah, do we have to do it over Instagram
?
Hannah (31:11):
Messenger.
Josh (31:12):
Do you?
Speaker 3 (31:12):
want to like, have a coffee, like how it's not.
I mean, it's complicated, right, do you?
Are you finding in thisparticular, in this specific
moment, especially in Americanculture, are you finding
conflict between your identitiesas or, shall I say, are you
finding others have anexpectation of conflict between
(31:32):
your identities?
Hannah (31:35):
Yeah Well, I would say personally like it has been a
challenge, for a couple ofreasons I think.
Although I feel verycomfortable within the Jewish
community, you know I still,when we're talking about
anti-semitism and anti-racism, Iget a little nervous about like
(31:59):
speaking out publicly, becauseI don't want you know my
comments to be mischievous oranything like that.
So that was a challenge and itwas a challenge with other Jews
of color that I spoke with,having the same sentiments, and
I would say the other challengethat I've seen and felt is that,
(32:23):
taking like what you know,kanye West or you know Kairi
said I worried and I still worrythat it creates an unsafe place
for Jews of color within ourcommunity.
Yeah, you know, I remember likeI was gonna say bitching, but I
(32:47):
guess I'm like you can saybitching, we bitch, Kvachin.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Kvachin works too.
Hannah (32:52):
But really just being so angry.
You know, after seeing all this.
You know I was speaking withanother friend of mine who does
a lot of work for inclusion.
I'm like you know Kairi andKanye basically have like set us
back and you know the work thatwe're doing especially in
creating places of belonging forJews of color.
Because now I worry that, youknow, if you know a Jew of color
(33:16):
walks into a place, they'll bethought of, as you know, being a
hero Israelite, which is not,you know, which is not the case.
And then I also worry becausethere are, you know, I guess,
organizations or Jews of colorwho you know are not a part of,
(33:38):
like the Hebrew-Israelitemovement or especially those,
like you know, french groups,yeah, but do through tradition
or through whatever.
Have adopted Jewish practices,but they may not be affiliated
with you know, like a movement,or, you know, holocically
recognize.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Or they may not even realize these are Jewish
practices, Right right, right.
Hannah (34:02):
And so I wonder what you know how that relationship
between you know, those folksand, I guess, mainstream Judaism
will be like.
Josh (34:13):
Yeah.
Hannah (34:15):
It is a line.
You know that I have to walksometimes as a black person.
But I'm hoping that you know,as we continue on and you know,
continuously fight anti-Semitism, that we recognize as a
community that fighting bothanti-Semitism and anti-racism
(34:40):
you know they're one and thesame, they're linked.
Josh (34:41):
Yeah, they're linked to each other.
Hannah (34:44):
You know it's all about.
You know, getting rid of whitesupremacy, yeah, and if we
recognize that, you knowanti-Semitism and anti-racism
are one and the same.
You know we're fighting whitesupremacy.
I think we'll then find moredialogue between the black
community and the Jewishcommunity.
Yeah, you know where we'reworking together and actually
(35:06):
having those deep conversations.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Yeah, I was talking to a friend of mine over the
weekend who is a producer, orlast week who is a producer in
Atlanta and he has a rich familyhistory.
This is a total tangent of he'sfrom South Philly and his dad
was a producer and he was like,so he has this really rich
tradition of like inheritedknowledge of the like Jewish
(35:29):
black music scene and the thingthat I'm hearing when he's
telling me these stories of like, oh, here's another you know
R&B song produced by a Jewishperson with it's black music
produced by Jews, and I'm likeyeah, because we were locked out
of the same rooms.
Yeah, Right, so if you're goingto lock us out of the rooms,
we're going to look at eachother and be like all right, who
else is here?
Right, Okay, let's just do itourselves.
(35:50):
So we'll just do it.
Hannah (35:51):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
And it breaks my heart that that narrative is
lost.
Hannah (35:56):
Right Yep.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
Because that's such a big part of it too, especially
the specific lived Americanexperience of both people of
African descent and of Jewishextraction.
My grandfather had to lie.
He had, I think I can'tremember the exact narrative but
basically he bought a house ina part of Chicago that Jews were
(36:19):
not allowed to live, and myaunt still has memories and she
told me this about him saying toher hey, make sure when you go
to school you don't tell anyonewhere we live.
Wow, yeah.
Or you know and conversely, like, just make sure that you don't
mention to anyone that wereJewish, that house could have
been taken away from them ifthey had found, been found out
secretly being Jewish in thisneighborhood.
Not allowed.
Josh (36:40):
Right.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
So I mean, like you say it's the same, it's the same
struggle, like it doesn'tmatter, and this is the thing.
The only takeaway is like therecan be more than one victim.
Hannah (36:51):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
And we can be victimized or whatever.
We can experience multiplethings Exactly.
So it's not an either or thedichotomy of me having to choose
who is the bigger victim.
Exactly, I'm like I can't,we're not doing that.
It's a false conversation, it'sfalse Right.
You mentioned that you didBible study every week, and I'm
(37:14):
so curious about that becauseyou know, of course don't ask me
if I remember anything.
Josh (37:20):
That actually tells me a lot.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Well, and the only thing I'm curious about is like,
because you do Torah study nowtoo right?
How are they different fromeach other?
Were you lectured at versustalked to?
Hannah (37:35):
I don't know, yeah, that's that's.
I'm glad you mentioned that,cause I think one of the other
beauties that I find in Judaismis being able to question.
I say all the time that atleast in the branch of
Christianity that I grew up in,it was pay, pray and obey, and
you don't deviate out of that,and so Can you decode that for
(37:57):
me?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So pray like you know, go tochurch, pay so and I would say
most Christian denominations,you know, you give tithes or
offerings.
Josh (38:13):
The collection play would be what I would love.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Yeah.
Hannah (38:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they passed the collection play, you
know, and that's all.
For, like, the building up ofthe kingdom of God is what we
were taught, and then obey,basically obeying.
You know the word of God, butthe authorities which are like
the pastors, and so in all ofthat there was no question like
this is, this, is what you do,and so when I first went to a
(38:40):
tourist study, it was veryconfused as to what are all
these people yelling at therabbi about, like you know what
I'm saying?
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Wait, I thought who is the rabbi?
Right, right, right.
Hannah (38:54):
I'm like what?
Like the rabbi doesn't have,like you know, final authority
on what the text means.
Like, what are we talking about?
Josh (39:00):
Why is there a discussion?
Hannah (39:03):
But that's just so beautiful and I find tourist
study to be very engaging andvery enriching for me because
you know I get to hear, like youknow, not only the rabbi's
perspective but like theperspective of, you know, my
peers, and then also like learnyou know something new, instead
of being preached at which youknow, when I was in, you know,
(39:27):
bible school.
That's basically what it was.
It was being preached at.
with no real dialogue, you onlydie.
I mean, if there was dialogueor any conversation, you know
you do this or you're gonna goto hell Like that's all.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
Was it like hey, did you read the scripture?
Does that make sense?
Like cause?
I mean, I think I've had otherpeople tell me that their
experience with religion isbasically like we weren't really
even asked to read anything.
It was more like there wassomeone on the stage they told
us what to think, and then we,like, went home with their
lesson about the thing.
Hannah (39:57):
Exactly, yep, yeah, so I mean Bible study like privately
was encouraged, but in terms oflike the formal, like church
setting, yeah, it basically was.
You know the pastorinterpreting some texts and then
, telling us what it means, andthat's all.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
Yeah, yeah.
So it was almost like moreabout the social aspect, I guess
, about just being theretogether.
Josh (40:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
Tell me about the work you're doing now.
Tell me about Beit Mishpacha,and tell me about the work that
you, that sort of drives your Ithink probably drives your life,
would not be an overstatement,would that be correct.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hannah (40:39):
So I am the executive director of Beit Mishpacha and
we are DC's only LGBTQ synagogue, and so we'll be celebrating
actually 50 years in thecommunity in 2025, which so
happens to coincide with WorldPride which will be here in DC.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Oh, by design?
No doubt it's a conspiracy.
Oh wait, no, we don't makethose jokes sorry, sorry.
Hannah (41:05):
And so, yeah, I do a lot of outreach to, you know, lgbtq
Jews in the area.
We have services each Fridaynight, located at the JCC and
DuPont Circle, and also on thesecond and fourth Saturdays of
the month.
So my day to day is just a lotof outreach, you know, attending
(41:28):
events, meetings, but you know,and just trying to get the word
out, you know that there is aplace for LGBTQ, jews.
The gospel yeah right, thegospel of the LGBTQ Jews right
Religion jokes.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
Exactly the gospel of the gay Jews they were right
Solid yeah okay.
Hannah (41:47):
So I mean, it's a lot of like community outreach, which
I love, so I'm getting to knowso many people and then so
that's my paying job, I wouldsay.
And then, like I mentioned, I'mon the board of Jewish
Federation here in DC.
I'm also on the Social ActionCommittee for the Reform
(42:10):
Movement, which right now we'reactually working on reparations,
which is very interesting atthis time, very interesting.
And I'm also, you know, amember of Washington Hebrew
Congregation.
So I do a lot of work withtheir racial equity and
belonging work as well.
So, most recently, we're workingon inclusion for folks with
(42:32):
disabilities and how we can youknow reimagine what our space
looks like and what thecongregant or visitor experience
is.
You know at Shabbat services,or just you know entering into
our building.
Josh (42:45):
Yeah.
Hannah (42:47):
And so, yeah, I have fully put my entire self into
Jewish life since, I guess, myofficial conversion a couple of
years ago.
And it drives me, it's whatgives me joy, it's what keeps me
motivated, and so I say, as,how many years that I have on
(43:13):
this earth it will be dedicatedto Judaism and, you know, making
sure that all Jews you knowhave a place to call home and
making sure that we all have aplace to belong.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
What remains yet for us to work on and do?
What should we be vigilant of?
And thinking about from yourperspective.
Hannah (43:36):
I think we have to strive to continue to build
community, and I am like a hugefan of just interpersonal
relationships and like buildingthose and you know, especially
when it comes to people of colorwithin the Jewish community,
there has to be a way for us toinvite you know, Jews of color
(44:04):
to the table.
So, you know, one thing thatwe're working on at Federation
is, you know, what does themakeup of our board of directors
looks like and why does it lookthat way?
And you know, is it reallyreflective of, you know, the
entire community?
Yeah, and so there has to bemore interpersonal relationships
(44:24):
, I think, and communitybuilding amongst each other.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
Well, that seems not easy but doable, right, Exactly
exactly.
It is not your job to finishthe task, but neither may you
desist from the work.
Yes exactly.
Thanks for listening to Jew Ish.
If you like what you hear,please give us a follow and
don't forget to tell a friendwho might be a little Jew
(44:50):
curious.
It really is the best way tohelp people find us.
Also, make sure you check outthe show notes for a glossary of
terms you might have heard.
In this week's episode, jew Ishis a Say More production.
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