June 22, 2024 • 53 mins
Our co-host Phil Fry sits down in the Jolly Roger Sailing Club bar and talks with member of the Toledo Ice Yacht Club. They talk about the sport of ice boating, various types of ice boats and some stories of the past. You can learn more about the Toledo Ice Yacht Club at https://www.tiyc.net/ and on their facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/toledoice/
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello everyone, my name is Phil Frye. I'm here with the podcast jibe talking
(00:05):
We're coming to you actually from the bar at Jolly Roger sailing club, and I've got three distinguished guests
With me today, and we're gonna talk about ice boating. I am a
Died in the world soft water guy, so we'll see if they can convince me. I need to try ice boating
But we have less lash away. Who's a former Commodore of Toledo ice yacht club
(00:31):
We have John Greiner who I think is former Commodore of everything in the area
Toledo ice yacht club North Cape yacht club and Jolly Roger yacht club and then we also have Ken Dixon
Who has written a book?
100th anniversary of of the club and the racing that we've had
(00:52):
Here in the bay so and let's not forget that and I'm in such austere company
That I'm also a past Commodore. Okay, very good. So I've got I got three past Commodores here with me
So that that's that's awesome. So
I am not that familiar with
(01:12):
Ice boating I know that you guys have been lester
You've probably been doing it since you were in your cradle since inside spoke all my life if I could ice boat year-round
You would do it never step foot in the sailboat really
Okay, ice boats are way way way more exciting and fun to say I'm fun
(01:32):
One of one of the first things you should take note is that less is usually usually
In fact, I came to think of an example when he wasn't he's the first person out on the ice with his iceboard
I know that every year. All right, very good. And then John how old were you when you first started?
I don't know when I was 10 years old. 10 years old my gosh
(01:53):
Okay
it was
one of those things that I was drilling a hole for the steering post and
couldn't get it in and
this old gentleman George King who
Was a famous catboat sailor and ice boater from way back when he was in his 70s
and he took my tiller post and took it in on the
(02:17):
hot water heater and
With the gas flame and got it red hot and burn it right through there. He said we didn't drill holes
And
He made me a sail and
I don't know just how that affected me
(02:38):
But years later, I became a sail maker. I was sail maker for 52 years
Yeah, those making that sail for me had something to do with it
Those of you who are listening to this
We're about a mile away from the Griner sail loft where John
Hung his hat for many many years and now his grandson
(02:59):
owns the business and they make sails for boats soft water and hard water boats down there
boats down there and then Ken tell tell us a little bit about the about the book the book was a really a
work of love
Because there are so many stories
about ice boating and in this area and
(03:22):
traveling up to a Lake St. Clair back in the 20s and the 30s and
Cass Lake Devils Lake when we didn't have ice here and I
I wanted everyone to have a part in that book
And if you go through it, you notice that if somebody wanted to say something
They wrote it out for me and that got put in a book and it's a lot of pictures
(03:44):
Of what it used to be like and what it's like now. No, it's fantastic. Is this book available? It's still available. I think we have
Maybe 20 or 30 copies. So anyone who's interested in it's a pretty thick book to anyone who's interested in learning about the history of
Of ice boating here in this area would would be well served to pick that book up. Yes, and
(04:07):
the price is
Very very reasonable. I think it's ten dollars
Oh, wow, isn't that the cost and barely barely covers up 20. It just went up. Oh, it's just the demand
Throve it up to 20
(04:28):
Okay, so is
2024 the hundredth anniversary or was
Since it was in
2019 it was a hundred years old
2019 was a hundred years old
In 19 okay, and it really came from the King ice yacht club and I'm not sure how long that was going on and finally
(04:51):
Formed into the Toledo ice yacht club because there was other entities coming from different areas to sail with us
I think it was the crushing yacht club crescent ice yacht club, which was that was just a well short time in the 40s
It was Toledo. Yeah, late 30s and early 40s. Okay, so so rolling back. Let's let's roll back in time to
essentially
(05:13):
1919 well
Toledo Yacht Club had an ice boat fleet that went back to 1909. Oh so even even race there at Toledo Yacht Club
Okay, and
they called
The boys from Kings ice shot club the guys up north and
(05:34):
Then out of a react club started out as our river ice shot club. Oh, it was a nice club for
and
They called them the boys from the creek
Okay, this was the creek. All right, and I
This
Diary starts in 1909. Okay, and they were they'd sail to Putin Bay
(05:59):
Okay places like that
By the time
Any of us came along?
World War two caused the channel to be opened all the time that Toledo
Maritime channel that traders go down
so during World War two this worked really well to keep the supplies going for the defense and
(06:24):
Once that happened when the war became ended
These manufacturers said well, you know, that was so great. We got to keep the channels open so from
1940
You didn't sail to Putin Bay anymore. You couldn't cross the channel. It's been kept open
(06:45):
So that made a big thing but
Three people
Strain a hand from champion spark plug right at a boat called a spark plug that a guy by name of Walter Dix built and
He was a friend and sailed with George Kane and was a
(07:07):
dated my mother
I have a pretty good feeling of this and
They left Toledo Yacht Club in
1921 and
joined Kings Island
joined Kings I shot club
Because at that time
Toledo Yacht Club
(07:27):
Didn't have any more ice boats. Where was Kings?
Located at the store building down on as you go around a curve on Lakeside
Okay, there's a store building there that used to be a store and and that's and that was the location was and
The Dempsey Willard fight
Right. It was here in Toledo Park. Yeah
(07:51):
When they were done the stands were
The wood that was built the stands
And told people to come take it away
Okay
Building materials their Kings took that and they built the pier. There was a pair out there
Which the other day when the little water you could see the old oh when we had the all the water
(08:14):
I watched that break up that pier
in a storm in a northeast storm
And now it's just a little pile of sand with a few little poles around it
So but that was where they kept all the ice boats for many years
Okay, so rolling rolling back in time to 1909
(08:38):
Freshwater sailing or soft soft water sailing
Versus ice boating. What was the most popular back then? Well the
Kcat boats, okay, which we've got one of them back here. Yeah the part of
Okay
And that was a soft water
(08:59):
by the Tweedle fleet at
TYC and they were built here and Lukey built over a hundred of those Wow between
1920 and 1950 okay, and
consequently
There is a comment that at Putin Bay
They had private cats and club cats. They were the same boat, but the club cats had smaller sails and
(09:28):
There were over a hundred sailed at Putin Bay at some of the times during the 20s
Okay, so the Kcats were the biggest thing were the biggest fleet and
But ice boats there was a lot of was there a was there a one design ice boat back in the early
1900s when did the DN I know the DN Detroit news came along
(09:52):
but
The 15 meters we have that that you see here, right?
They were designed for the 1932 Olympics
and
but
Olympic Committee knew there was a problem with getting a place to sail and all of that and it was in Germany
(10:15):
Okay, and the design was there and their ice boaters were promoting it, but it never got never have around
But the designs went around
So that's the 15 meters square meters of sail. Okay, and we thought we were the only 15 meters around anymore
They're racing them in Russia
Latvia in Estonia today today. Wow
(10:39):
Okay, and we sent
Aaron stang and
JR Francis over as juniors
Who I know you heard those two guys
Sure have we sent them over as juniors to sail ice boats
Wow, and they ran into these people that were sailing the 15 meters
In Russia and they had a picture with
(11:03):
25 15 meters and a line to start. Well, Ken you were you were about to say something
the
These these boats of the
15 meters the 200s to 250
Which were the size of the sails is okay square feet, but
They needed a crew. They needed a lot of friends to put the boat on the ice take it off the ice
(11:29):
and
the Detroit news
ran a they had a
Almost like a do-it-yourself part in the paper and
the
original plans
for and an in an evolved sailboat or ice boat the dn
Came from the Detroit news, right?
(11:51):
And it was they that was the next up-and-coming boat because one person
could take
Bring it down on the ice. They could build it in their garage
And more importantly they could handle it. They could put it on their boat. They could transport it
And it just became
uh, probably the most famous class of ice boats right and I are isn't right now the uh,
(12:18):
World championships going on somewhere worlds have just ended in worlds ended. Yes, and where where were those held?
In Europe
That's
Estonia
Um you then the u.s. Is what this coming weekend or next weekend?
European championships, but it's going to be here. It's just getting over with the nationals are the u.s.
(12:39):
Nationals are next weekend. And where is that? Where is that? You don't know an ice boat. It's wherever the best ice will be
Wasn't it a fort? I've heard this before I've heard this before
And they say show up and so they show up travel and and show up minute
They tell you where and everybody drives to that location. All right
Owen took six of the top ten
In the world. Yeah, Estonia and Poland. Yep, Poland. They have big big so
(13:05):
So if you were to guess right now, how many dns are there worldwide?
The world's had a hundred and sixty three boats registered to race
Okay, and that's just a fraction obviously of all the action of the dns of what but that's the racing dns the best in the world
Were the dns ever compared to the world?
Or are they all commercially made now? They are there's a guy up in Detroit and it makes them he belongs to to to go ice yacht club
(13:31):
He's an 11th time world or national champion. I believe Ryan Sherry. He's building them commercially right now
Are they carbon fiber now or they still they're still there's still wood design wood boat to the same specs
Okay. So Ken you were saying and and John told me that you were talking about the
To the same specs and okay. So Ken you were saying and and John touched on this too
(13:54):
15 meter is not the length of the boat. It's the size of the sail
Okay, and you said
Then there were scales up from that
Well, there were but they all came before the ice boat has it is constantly evolving
Okay, and they found out that the amount of sail is not directly related to the speed of the boat
(14:20):
It's just not there because some of the new uh skeeters
Uh, they got like you might as well take an airplane wing
And stand it up straight. Yeah, they're solid wing and it's you know, you're they're top like the like america's cup stuff
There's one for sale out in wisconsin. It's it'll sail on ice and it also has wheels. You can also sail it in the desert
(14:42):
Okay, these these boats and their solid wing. They're a cockpits
I mean it's like going into a jet fuselage where the canopy comes down the sail in the spars behind you
Right and 140 150 mile an hour. They'll reach up to 100 miles an hour
These boats they're very fast and they sail they sail beautifully
(15:04):
They sail exactly, you know ice boats go fast sail boats go slower in the wind ice boats go faster
Right, I because I mean when you're when you're talking about a displacement hull you have a theoretical hull speed
And when you're talking about an ice boat, you have very little contact with the surface. It's just your runners
That's in contact with the surface. So the end hull is about 42 pounds
(15:27):
Okay, so you can sail because of apparent wind
faster than the winds
Actually, and you're four times faster. You're probably going to bring this up is that the runners themselves
Do don't even make contact with the ice because you're running on a thin
Waver of water is what you're really running on. Okay, and so it's
(15:50):
Slippery friction causes heat and heat melts a little bit of water and then you're riding on that
Runner, you're getting into very technicalities there and i'm not sure that we we want to solve that problem today
But they're fast, they're fast
They're fast
I know something's going on down there, but I don't know that I want to I I didn't want to bring this up
(16:14):
But i'm going to bring this up in about 1970. I built the first 15 meter that had been built in a long time
and
John gave me a big push in that direction
He sold me a backbone or the main fuselage for 15 meter. Okay now
(16:35):
I had to take it from his house, which was just off a lakeside back to my house, which was at the other end of lakeside
And I said john you're going to give me a hand he goes
And I think it was jack hugo and I had to carry that thing
And that's when we found out that you needed a lot of friends
(16:56):
But at dn don't have to have any friends. Well
It's a very selfish book
But the 15 meter is the reason I built one because I had at that time
I had two young kids right and they they wanted to go out sailing sure and uh, my son's idea of sailing was
To stand up whenever I wasn't looking he just put his hand on my shoulder and stand up in the cockpit and off we go
(17:24):
Till I looked over at him and found out that he was actually standing up. I was oh
And his mother's screaming at me. But anyway, that's another story
But it was it was something you could take people out and get them
um
you
What would be the word i'm looking for you could you could take them out?
And get them acquainted with ice boating without having to make a huge investment
(17:48):
Or borrow somebody's boat and have a chance
You're gonna break it if you were to build a dn today. What would it cost roughly?
I have to pass on that. I have asked ron ferrie that very question. Yeah, didn't get an answer
10 grand for a dn
Yeah, professionally built it was designed in 1939 or whenever right?
(18:13):
By these guys in detroit just as a little thing you could go play with and you can build it out of scrap lumber and right
you know and
They just keep improving that thing and these polish people
When you talk to the real good dn sailors
they have put fittings on their boat that just
(18:34):
Way over what the americans do or what u.s. So they're they're on they're on the cutting edge of this
They're the polisher on the cutting edge
Estonians
Some germans swedes and finnish are
Are very fast. I assume they're they're sailing on inland inland lakes and not the baltic sea. I would have fresh water
(18:54):
Fresh water, fresh water
Right, salt water no, please. Yeah too much
Yeah, who marked? We don't know about that. Don't refer from mommy bay. Yeah
Mommy bae's got other things. Yeah. Yeah, we have other problems
Yeah, one of the big problems with the dn. This is from my point of view is that the dn came with
(19:16):
specifications
every measurement on there was plus or minus and
things have changed and evolved and
And I wouldn't be surprised if if the polish people have put these things into wind tunnels
And figure it out, which is the best. Yeah, because
(19:36):
The rake of the the spar right and uh, how the sails were cut. I mean they might go there
Uh and have four or five different sails
And runners for the ice conditions. Yeah, i've heard that i've heard that you have different runners sometimes depending on what the condition if you're going to get
A dn and race it competitively you better have d pockets. Yeah 10 grand at least
(20:02):
That's just that's just starting. That's just a story. That's only one set of runners probably. Yeah
Okay
now when when they run now, obviously i'm i'm used to uh,
Soft water regattas are are our ice boat regattas run essentially the same way with the courses
Is with a start line a start line and you think about ice boating you're going faster in the wind
(20:26):
So even going downwind you're going faster in the wind. Okay downwind you're really good. You never let the sail out
It's a fact even going downwind you're you're going this this is a lot of the the stuff
That's happened in the last five ten years in america's cup too with the articulating wings. They're actually slow next ice boat
Wow, that's a but compared to my boat. They're extremely fast. They look slow, but that's ice boating
(20:53):
It's it's a lot like ice boating the new america's cup. Well, I know because they're they're
They're foiling they're foiling more and more
more and more boats, um
Eight like catamarans, um, there's foiling moths now and a lot more boats are starting to foil windsurfers
I mean the high speed things are starting to foil more as far as well. Well you get out you have no more drag
(21:17):
Are you reducing? Yeah, but as I watched the america's cup sailed, it's it's ice boating all over again
So on a on an ice boat
Regatta you're running a windward lured course. You're sailing extremely fast
How long is that course two miles three miles if you take over ten minutes, you don't come
Okay
(21:38):
Ten minutes is over. That's it. So what it's about two miles. Yeah, as long as you can make them
Yeah, two miles of course, right? You know, that's all you're going to get around here
They can have longer courses, right? You were I think the world was it was two meters over two meters are
kilometers
Two kilometers. Yeah, two meters would be about six feet. Yeah
(22:01):
Yeah, about one point four one point two one three miles john you were talking earlier about um
uh winter olympics has has uh ice boats ever made it into the winter olympics they've just
Because there are so many problems on getting ice right and uh, you can't plan on you've got
(22:22):
these guys
With their dns they drive up to northern michigan and then get on a telephone and say where am I going?
To go out slice right now. I believe it's in fort peck montana
And they're looking at driving the nationals in fort peck montana. That's wasn't there when they were last year
Yeah, they were last year. That's 22 and a half hours. I believe drive from here
And okay, so this
(22:44):
The nationals let's just assume for a second. They're going to be in montana
How many people will show up for that? Do you think hundred hundred?
Do they have classes? We'll have a little bit 10 12 boats of toledo ice yacht club. Okay
We don't have the best representation. Well, usually the biggest club really one of the biggest clubs in the country
(23:05):
Wow, what's the membership of toledo? We have what two and a quarter 240
Okay, so
A lot of people don't race ice so so you've got
Roughly the same membership that jolly roger has because I think we're at 250 and you don't have a clubhouse
So you come and you come here occasionally have a meeting only operate during the winter, right from november to march
(23:27):
Okay, and we have awards banquet and then the club just quits. We have a summer. We have a lot of um
Over the years the camaraderie in the ice yacht club has got extremely
It's it's very old and it's very storied and it's um, well, obviously there's a lot of there's a lot of camaraderie
When it comes to ice boating in toledo
And if you become somebody in the toledo ice yacht club, it's it's everybody in it's your friend for life
(23:53):
Yeah, well, I think that's that's that's the same with well one of the
I hate to say this but one of the things is the toledo ice yacht club
Has uh almost been uh asked to leave every yacht club
In the center of the town and some of the bars some of the bars too. Yeah. Yes, you're always welcome
(24:13):
You're always welcome here. We have um, number of years passed though, but we've always pretty well, you know
One party we had at tyc
My wife happened to chat with the bartender when it was some quiet times close to the end of the evening
And he said I never saw so many people
(24:37):
drink so much
And yet act so normal
And he frees it's any freeze for you guys. That's that's one of the
That's one of the things about iceboarding is that a lot of people have found out that they'll they'll put a beer
On their boat or in a cup holder on their boat and when the beer freezes
(24:57):
It's time to go in it's too cold
So but I could be wrong so
And and I know
Obviously the climate is always changing and I know it's been changing around here in the last
10 20 years. How long is your
Reasonably, how many times can you get out for ice right nowadays? You're looking for ice about three months. You're looking for it
(25:20):
um the last
Two years last year was terrible this year this year. I sailed six days
And I think i've done for the year last year. I sailed one day
um
Three years ago, I sailed 40 days
So it's you know, it varies from year to year to year and it's not something you can count on
But when it gets good, it's real good. Well, I I know even even as a
(25:44):
As a soft water sailor. We want to see the lake freeze because there's no evaporation
Yeah, it's good for the lake and and good for sail. Where we sail at is a very safe area
It's a closed in bay that ice doesn't go out
It's um, it's
Best kept secret in Toledo. I mean it's fine
Toledo, I mean as far as ice a sporting event, yeah, and um, it's
(26:09):
It's a very good thing out here. You still sail competitively. Yes. Okay. John you still sail competitively
I'm the current champion in the 15 meter class. Nice
Uh, unfortunately, that was 19 or 2016
Okay, they haven't had a race since then. Well, okay still congratulations. I'm hanging in there, but and I'm ready
(26:34):
But there's some young kids that probably can sheet in a hell of a lot quicker than I can now. Ken, what about you?
You still race competitively? No, I had a heart attack
About 20 years ago and I found out that uh cold weather and heart attacks just don't go together
so
I use that as an excuse because
I go out there and there was a guy named Jim Strimney in a 15 meter
(26:56):
And he was the very difficult to beat
as a matter of fact, we even probably sabotaged his boat a couple times so that we could win but uh
I think it was 1976
Uh, the Franklin Park
Mall
Had a display and we must have taken in how many boats John over there?
(27:19):
Over there, uh, maybe yeah a dozen boats dozen boats all together in the uh,
Right where the uh the atrium in there. Yeah, and uh,
a couple of the spars put nicks in the ceiling because trying to get a 30 foot stick up and
We had to be very careful and
that
(27:39):
provided more interest
Because the people coming out to the mall could see the boats and there was always somebody there and to talk about the sport
And that went over really well. I think it was the same year
That we also had the renegade nationals here. Yeah, and the renegades were a
a boat
up, it's a class boat up from
(28:01):
um the dns and now you have
John's boat which was the suite 16 is in there and you have knights and there's a lot of different classes
But the renegades when they had him here
and uh that year I had broke
my 15 meter broke the backbone
um
I
(28:21):
Put a spar through the deck of my dn
so
The renegade was the next boat I could destroy
and uh
First race I had never raced a renegade before in my life and the first race about 30 boats
They had to wait, you know
Less than 10 minutes. Well, I think they waited 15 minutes for me to finish
(28:44):
Because I was dead last. Yeah, I've been there. Yeah, and I
I come in and there's a bunch of old guys which would be
Guys in their late 60s, but I was in I was probably 30 35
And uh, so I said look all these boats are one design
Come on. Help me out here. This is embarrassing
(29:06):
You know help me out
And one guy says will you take this up turn this
Put a couple of notches in one and then stand on the foot pedals. It'll go
the next race
I had gotten down to the
Lured mark
The winner mark first lap
(29:27):
Before anybody else and I had gotten back to the other one and the
It's just the boat went faster and faster and faster and I thought
That it was fairly level and there's some pictures somewhere
that the
Runner plank is bent up in the air the spar kind of like eddie's picture eddie bernard's picture
(29:49):
And I got back
Made a loop came right back into the house and my wife says is there a problem?
And I says, yep
I've never gone so fast and I said and I spoke before
Scared the hell out of me
And I kept thinking about the front bolt that held the right front runner on
(30:10):
And I bought that at ace for 38 cents. Oh boy, and i'm thinking this is not good
The guy comes walking up. It was irwin out of putting bay
And he says uh russe irwin
And he says well, I'd like to have one of those I said well mine's for sale
Wow, he bought it right then and there and I was done with it. It was
(30:32):
It's just it that boat
Just scared me
now
well the
The thing about a run agade what he's talking about right you get them hooked up just right and there's another gear
That
You just can't find all the time right and the better sailors that sail them all the time right now. I've sailed run agades
(30:56):
some
And the one time we went up to castles
And the one time we went up to castlake and we're
And I was in the back of the fleet
And this ron sherry that's building the boats now his father
Lauren sherry I knew real well through the thistle sailing that I was doing with him. He sat on the back of my boat
(31:18):
While we were just parked waiting while the deans are racing
And he said john your master's over rotating
And so we sat and played with sliding the blocks back and forth
He'd say sheet it in i'd sheet it in
and when
Everything was better
He said okay try this
in the next race
(31:40):
I got up
Forced I think it was I was up with better guys
and
Another time I was sailing a boat in those races
and I just
Got it in gear in the second lap and I went right through the fleet man. I was going faster than anybody
anybody and
(32:01):
Then I thought boy I got it made now, you know, i'm going to win this race easily the third lap
I couldn't find it. I went back into my fourth or fifth place
You just you've got to get the mast so that
It rotates exactly perfectly with the sail
And of course building the sail i'm aware of this sure and
(32:24):
And we've really worked on the renegade sails to get them so that they would line up
But then you put them on a mast. It's a little more flexible
And then that doesn't work. You need some changes made or you get a mast that doesn't flex enough
They've got to flex just right to match the sail. Everything has to be perfect less you had a
(32:48):
A renegade still got a renegade. I still got a renegade. I uh, it was built in 1960
my renegade it's an older boat, but it's in
It's in furniture shape. It's it's almost perfect
It's um, they're a dream to sail and this is a one-person boat one-person boat. Okay
Yeah, it's a fuselage boat. You're down in you steer with your feet. Okay hands. All right, and
(33:12):
When he said you stand on the foot pedals, he's right, you know
This oh, yeah, and then and then um, oh, wow
Okay, so now
A dn is a is a tiller dn as a tiller
Okay, you still one hand you sheet with one hand but a renegade has foot pedals with steering by you steer with your feet
Like you would a plane. Okay, and they still race renegades. Yes. Okay every chance I ever get i'll sell a renegade
(33:38):
And then the finest sailing craft i've ever been in and then what would a renegade run?
Renegades are right now. Um right now everybody wants a knight, which is a small renegade, but it'll sail two people
And they're the ones that people are really going after right now, right renegades are kind of down in price
But um a good renegade is three to five thousand dollars
(33:59):
Which isn't too bad for what they'll do. You'd have trouble building one for that. Yeah
Oh, they're very expensive because of the warm cycle of weather. We're in ice boats are very reasonable right now
But demand is down obviously. Yeah, the demand's not because the season's been so short
But um, you know, there's your photos
Ken of being in Franklin Park, Franklin Park, Moe
(34:22):
Okay, so let's let's talk a little bit about safety equipment
Everybody now sails with helmets. I'm assuming sail with helmets you sail most people has
Not that you ever get into water a lot of people in inland
Lakes and stuff where the water's deeper than what we sail in they'll have ice picks
Pull themselves out a hole if they ever were to fall in okay out here where we sail
(34:45):
We're lucky because it's only about three four feet deep. So if you went in you could stand up stand up, right?
And um, you know, it's never any deeper. That's that's what one of the good things about
Mommy bay is where we sail. It's a good thing that um, it freezes
There's very little very little ice in the water
There's very little very little we have one current line
(35:07):
It runs down the middle of the bay that we sail around you have to watch but it's a very it's a very safe place to sail
um, it's closed in from a channel by
Where they dug the Toledo channel they dumped the spoils on each side of it
Okay, and that holds our ice in so the ice doesn't float away with you on it, right like ice fisherman
(35:27):
It's way different way different what ice fisherman. It's um, I ice I are I
I our ice stays
Um, just like an inland lake would stay. Okay, but
Still we're on lake here. We get the wind off the lake area and stuff and it's sure
It's the ice is like the big ice. It's like you're sailing on a big lake compared to inland lake sailing
(35:48):
but like
we have
uh
three basic classes of boats, am I right we have the
Dn, of course the renegade and the 15 meters
Okay, and then there might be a couple of knights or arrows and sweet 16s
It'll come in and we have we have a pretty good little skimmer fleet going too
(36:10):
Which is a very inexpensive little metal boat that's commercially built
And the skimmers are very reasonable under a thousand dollars
Um under a thousand no a thousand dollars under a thousand under a thousand you can buy them for and
They're they're easily transported by one person easily set up
and we're getting to be have
(36:31):
Eight ten of them sailing when we sail
And it's not the kind of boat I would want to be on but a lot of people like the portability of them
Okay, it's almost a trapeze type seat. Isn't it? Yeah, they're metal. They're built on trapeze. That's the wrong term
Yeah, so like a cloth seat. Yeah
now what um
What's the biggest?
(36:52):
ice boat
That would be in the area of the great lakes. Let's say and and what size crew they raced a lot of them up and down
The Hudson River there was a big
Years ago years to go back in the day
Companies would own ice boats and they'd be professional crews sailing them
(37:15):
And there was a lot of uh, there was a lot of uh bigger ice boats
And they were able to design them and then they were able to design the
Sweet 16
You design that yeah
I'm seeing some boats here with uh opti sales on dns. They make they make iced optimist
(37:35):
That we have a few around here that sail they're made for junior sailors. That's moving into the moving up in ice floating
So they can't go as fast, right? They're they're very popular. They're very kids boats in europe are very popular
There's uh, well opti's are popular in europe. There was an opti ice nationals
(37:56):
held the same time that the dn
worlds will help
See now that would scare me
Like fresh. Well, that's the problem we have is that we don't cross that channel. Yeah
Because it's wet
The only thing that you can
I didn't know what it was, but I felt like I was on a roller coaster
(38:18):
because the bow wave from that leg freighter went over those
Spoils on both sides and came on and then
As it rolled off the bottom and hit the ice and rolled that bow wave off that leg freighter
Caused that ice what about a foot it'll you can see waves under the ice and you can see the ice moving up and down
Wow, so you're out there and all of a sudden you're a foot higher. Wow
(38:42):
a foot lower but uh
Getting back to what les was talking about
uh, the dodge brothers and dodge cars right ford
Uh, they would race on lake saint claire. Okay, and uh those both
One was called fernand for nanda blow. There were big boats. I don't know what they call them. They're big big
(39:03):
Big but they'd have a they'd have a substantial crew then yes. Um, the strainer hands had a boat in toledo
Spark plug wasn't it? That was with my walter dicks. That was
It became the hubba hubba when I was a kid
Some guys bought it and it was an old boat and they painted it up and that was a strainer hand boat
I believe wasn't it?
(39:25):
So that's when they joined
It came from tyc and they joined king's ice shot club in 1922
The toledo safety director guy named
D'angelo
I can't remember his first name. That's who had my boat. He had two arctic one arctic two
I've got arctic one
Which came from detroit?
(39:47):
It only had a 24 foot backbone
instead of a 25 foot 8
Which is all of them are 25 foot 8 now
and this 24 foot backbone
would uh
Spin out too easy. It didn't have the triangle wasn't big enough
For the amount of sail and that's the way they originally were and that boat was built in detroit in
(40:10):
1934 and it came down here and they
Played off of there were two boats
Red mcginnis had one and uh, and this d'angelo had one
Well, then d'angelo had another boat built by the toledo guys. It was more competitive with the
(40:32):
Like the toledo boats the soc brothers built it
And so this boat once I built a backbone that was 25 foot 8 inches
the boat
Stayed on the ice better and so everyone started then building that backbone. You're talking about
items here
The center of effort on that sail was about right below the 15. Would that be about right john, right?
(40:57):
Yeah, well if you just cross the lines and so
Right there what would happen if the boat was wasn't set up right the faster you would go that center of effort
Would act like a fulcrum
on this and it would actually lift
the stern stair the
This part of the boat
(41:18):
It would actually it doesn't stay on the ice well enough and what would happen then is you of course lose control
Stair and the boat would just spin. Oh my gosh now there's a in sailing
When you get into the wisconsin group and the big guys
They've got abc classes
And the c class
(41:38):
Is 140 square feet of sail
Well, our 15 meters are 156 square feet of sail. We're too big for that
So I have built about six or seven sails
That are c-class sails
Okay, which only have a 10-foot boom
Instead of a 12-foot. Okay, and with that sail
(42:01):
They go damn near as fast as a 15 and through a lot of wind they'll go and they're they're just holding ice much better
They sail much better. Yeah, they sail much better
So kind of like sometimes
Your boat sails better if you put a reef in yeah, yeah, sometimes sails better
So so if if someone who's listening to this has nothing
(42:23):
Knows nothing about ice boat yachting at all and they wanted to get into it
What would they do? Where would they go?
A lot of different ice yacht clubs throughout the night the united states. There's in minnesota in new york in the east coast on maine
Massachusetts sundusky has ice yacht club. There's most towns winter towns have ice yacht clubs, right?
(42:47):
Probably not one in san antonio. Yeah, when you get it back to the camaraderie that ice boaters have once you get back to
Anybody who walks on the ice I tell you what anybody has an ice boat will talk to you about it
I'll show you how they work and
It's very few people will not that own an ice boat will not right help you. All right, it's a
(43:07):
extremely friendly, right and
The there is a competition there's no doubt there's sure sure sure sure but if you ask
Like when I was with the renegade and I said, come on guys. What am I doing wrong? Right?
Everybody coming out everybody most people came over and says well do this do this and it'll go
(43:28):
Well with the dns and and this group here
Extremely friendly
And they'll go out of their way to help you as a matter of fact if you were back in the day
We would we designed a trailer. They would haul
You know six or seven eight dns up to devils lake or castle
(43:48):
and
friday night
Say somebody would say I need a ride. Yeah. Well, we'll we'll fit you in somehow
Just gave your boat down in a certain time. We'll take you up
What I mean, it's just fantastic
What questions have I not asked that I should have asked?
I think that last question was a good question
(44:11):
You need to go to somebody who is an ice boater and say is there
A boat I can buy pretty cheaply to get started on now. There's dns around here
that
Are not competitive
The competitive dns now have a fiberglass mass and that's one of the biggest changes that has come along
(44:33):
I built my grandson's boats
But I built wooden mass for them. I don't have a lot of money
And I told him I says here you go
They got wooden mass. So when you get old enough and get some money, you can buy a new fiberglass mask. Yeah, but
That dn will still teach you how to do it
(44:54):
That dn will still teach you how to sail
right and you can get these older dns and
And for not a lot of money
And go out and go sailing and then if you really want to get competitive
Yeah, okay. I got to get a new mask and then keep going but you can work your way up. Oh, yeah
Yeah, I mean because what you have is legal
(45:17):
You can race the dn
And say every year I want to improve this i'm getting better. I want the boat to be better and I would imagine
What a couple hundred bucks you could find one there in somebody's garage. They're reasonable now. I mean ice boats are very reasonable
And um, well like you said the demand is down because there's not as long as
(45:41):
1500 dollars you can buy a pretty nice dn nowadays. That would be a competitive
Yeah, no for around 10 10 grand for the competitive one, right john 10 grand for the competitive. Well
You don't need to go that far. You can build them yourselves. Yeah, and you don't have to have that much, you know
To be competitive around here
(46:02):
Now if you want to go all the way to the world's if you want to race against the polish guys saying
Then you're looking at you got to get the best of everything
Okay, but uh the guys that went around here most of them have built their own boats
The member the member that we have that's sailing the worlds in estonia right now. He keeps boat in europe
(46:22):
So he just has to fly over it just flies over there's quite a few europeans that keep their boats in united states
Somebody that ice boats house and they just fly over here and they pick their boat up and go
Right. I think it's just a fascinating story of of the dn is that you have a newspaper and
and somebody
Sketches out or designs or an ice boat and then it becomes this world-class
(46:50):
Vessel to to compete and and to sail on and it and it just started probably as hey
Let's put this in the sunday newspaper this week and see what happens. There's a guy in uh,
Kalamazoo which is on what's what?
Gold Lake and he keeps uh, four european boats in his bar. Wow
(47:15):
For the europeans, I mean he just for when they come over when they come over their boats to do north americans
And uh, so they're always have four european boats in his bar. Is there any racing in the southern hemisphere?
Any ice boat racing in the southern hemisphere? I've never heard any ice boat race probably just doesn't get doesn't get cold antarctica
Maybe but the newest country to start ice boat this year and they were at the worlds with china
(47:40):
Really starting now they're starting to have a chinese national
Okay, and they're starting to be ice boating and some of the europeans and some of the americans I believe went to china
Yeah, and was helping that fleet form and get started actually started
Well, i'm sure they've got in some areas of china. They've got frozen lakes. I would think yeah
What would when erin would go to europe to compete?
(48:03):
What did he take with him? Because I know he had a fuselage over there. He'd take a sail and a sail in the center runners
That's what he would take. Yeah
and uh
They had a
747 that
Or i'm not i'm shooting here. I i'm not sure but they there were people that took their whole boats
(48:25):
over and
How did how did that work out? I mean?
But erin he had
Or he left a boat there, I mean i'm not sure
The nearest competitive guy we got is jara francis, right?
Jara francis, well ron sherry's ones. Well, I know ron is yeah
There's a few other I mean i'm talking about local guys
(48:48):
right, uh
and it's just
There's a guy who's gold fleet peat, huh peat
What's his name? He's he's a guy that sails and he'll
What's it?
Johansson pete johanson will go on sailing
You know, he'll travel a lot stuff. We got guys that we got a dozen guys to lido that will travel any place in the country
(49:10):
Sail right now big can is there a big canadian?
um
A few canadians. Yeah, a few canadians. Yeah, I would think them being farther up north. It seems like uh, what they sail in
They sail up in edmonton. I believe and stuff up in there. There's some boats up in there
And around I see a lot of activity up in like thunder bay
(49:30):
Okay, superior. Yeah up there. They there's some guys that sail quite a bit up there minnesota and wisconsin is very much a hot spot
Right as the east coast is too the anorondex east coast when they're not snowed out
Okay, what's the uh, the lake at madison?
Um wisconsin minidota and minona and they race on those a lot madison wisconsin is probably one of the biggest
(49:53):
Spots that's where all the big skeeters and stuff run
Okay
Well gentlemen, thank you so much. I know a lot more about ice boating now
Next time you next time you ask me to go out lester. I might actually go
You might actually like it. I might i'll have to buy some long johns. That's for sure
I'll see you at the store right anytime. All right. Thank you. John. There's ice. Well true today. Probably not a good day
(50:20):
I've been
Found this article and this is from 1937 the year I was born
Ice boat racing over a 10 mile course on umami bay will be held every sunday afternoon this winter at king's ice yacht club
This goes at the meeting last night races will be held for the first time here
(50:41):
In the 15 meter class type boats, there will be 12 local racers already having entered this class
Entered in the 200 foot class marconi rigged
Class are five boats
In the 200 foot gafferig class, there are six boats
now the
(51:05):
Almost all ice boats up until
the
1925 to 28
Were gafferig really?
This was way too, yeah sailing
Sure cat boats and all that kind of stuff
Was that gafferig too and they were pretty much all gafferig and then in the 20s
(51:30):
In the 20s
They realized that the marconi rig was faster, right?
in most conditions sure and
so consequently
the
Boats shifted over to marconi rigs and this is what we have here is where they say there's
(51:52):
Five marconi rig and six gafferig they sailed them separately because they weren't competitive with each other
Now I can tell you there were some kids that had a
Had a 200 when I was a boy
And I had a 15 meter
And I could sail circles around them on good ice all the time
(52:17):
and then
During christmas vacation there came this big snow
And now the gafferig boat has a boom that's as long as a mast and a big gap pull
So it's a short fat sail
And they can plow through the snow
They kept going. Yeah and sailed right along and uh
(52:43):
I get stuck in the snow with my marconi rig
So you
Ideally you you don't want snow on the ice. No when you're out there you want it to be clear
Okay, cool
All right, guys
Thank you guys. Thank you much. Appreciate it. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you
Hello everyone, my name is Phil Frye. I'm here with the podcast jibe talking
(00:05):
We're coming to you actually from the bar at Jolly Roger sailing club, and I've got three distinguished guests
With me today, and we're gonna talk about ice boating. I am a
Died in the world soft water guy, so we'll see if they can convince me. I need to try ice boating
But we have less lash away. Who's a former Commodore of Toledo ice yacht club
(00:31):
We have John Greiner who I think is former Commodore of everything in the area
Toledo ice yacht club North Cape yacht club and Jolly Roger yacht club and then we also have Ken Dixon
Who has written a book?
100th anniversary of of the club and the racing that we've had
(00:52):
Here in the bay so and let's not forget that and I'm in such austere company
That I'm also a past Commodore. Okay, very good. So I've got I got three past Commodores here with me
So that that's that's awesome. So
I am not that familiar with
(01:12):
Ice boating I know that you guys have been lester
You've probably been doing it since you were in your cradle since inside spoke all my life if I could ice boat year-round
You would do it never step foot in the sailboat really
Okay, ice boats are way way way more exciting and fun to say I'm fun
(01:32):
One of one of the first things you should take note is that less is usually usually
In fact, I came to think of an example when he wasn't he's the first person out on the ice with his iceboard
I know that every year. All right, very good. And then John how old were you when you first started?
I don't know when I was 10 years old. 10 years old my gosh
(01:53):
Okay
it was
one of those things that I was drilling a hole for the steering post and
couldn't get it in and
this old gentleman George King who
Was a famous catboat sailor and ice boater from way back when he was in his 70s
and he took my tiller post and took it in on the
(02:17):
hot water heater and
With the gas flame and got it red hot and burn it right through there. He said we didn't drill holes
And
He made me a sail and
I don't know just how that affected me
(02:38):
But years later, I became a sail maker. I was sail maker for 52 years
Yeah, those making that sail for me had something to do with it
Those of you who are listening to this
We're about a mile away from the Griner sail loft where John
Hung his hat for many many years and now his grandson
(02:59):
owns the business and they make sails for boats soft water and hard water boats down there
boats down there and then Ken tell tell us a little bit about the about the book the book was a really a
work of love
Because there are so many stories
about ice boating and in this area and
(03:22):
traveling up to a Lake St. Clair back in the 20s and the 30s and
Cass Lake Devils Lake when we didn't have ice here and I
I wanted everyone to have a part in that book
And if you go through it, you notice that if somebody wanted to say something
They wrote it out for me and that got put in a book and it's a lot of pictures
(03:44):
Of what it used to be like and what it's like now. No, it's fantastic. Is this book available? It's still available. I think we have
Maybe 20 or 30 copies. So anyone who's interested in it's a pretty thick book to anyone who's interested in learning about the history of
Of ice boating here in this area would would be well served to pick that book up. Yes, and
(04:07):
the price is
Very very reasonable. I think it's ten dollars
Oh, wow, isn't that the cost and barely barely covers up 20. It just went up. Oh, it's just the demand
Throve it up to 20
(04:28):
Okay, so is
2024 the hundredth anniversary or was
Since it was in
2019 it was a hundred years old
2019 was a hundred years old
In 19 okay, and it really came from the King ice yacht club and I'm not sure how long that was going on and finally
(04:51):
Formed into the Toledo ice yacht club because there was other entities coming from different areas to sail with us
I think it was the crushing yacht club crescent ice yacht club, which was that was just a well short time in the 40s
It was Toledo. Yeah, late 30s and early 40s. Okay, so so rolling back. Let's let's roll back in time to
essentially
(05:13):
1919 well
Toledo Yacht Club had an ice boat fleet that went back to 1909. Oh so even even race there at Toledo Yacht Club
Okay, and
they called
The boys from Kings ice shot club the guys up north and
(05:34):
Then out of a react club started out as our river ice shot club. Oh, it was a nice club for
and
They called them the boys from the creek
Okay, this was the creek. All right, and I
This
Diary starts in 1909. Okay, and they were they'd sail to Putin Bay
(05:59):
Okay places like that
By the time
Any of us came along?
World War two caused the channel to be opened all the time that Toledo
Maritime channel that traders go down
so during World War two this worked really well to keep the supplies going for the defense and
(06:24):
Once that happened when the war became ended
These manufacturers said well, you know, that was so great. We got to keep the channels open so from
1940
You didn't sail to Putin Bay anymore. You couldn't cross the channel. It's been kept open
(06:45):
So that made a big thing but
Three people
Strain a hand from champion spark plug right at a boat called a spark plug that a guy by name of Walter Dix built and
He was a friend and sailed with George Kane and was a
(07:07):
dated my mother
I have a pretty good feeling of this and
They left Toledo Yacht Club in
1921 and
joined Kings Island
joined Kings I shot club
Because at that time
Toledo Yacht Club
(07:27):
Didn't have any more ice boats. Where was Kings?
Located at the store building down on as you go around a curve on Lakeside
Okay, there's a store building there that used to be a store and and that's and that was the location was and
The Dempsey Willard fight
Right. It was here in Toledo Park. Yeah
(07:51):
When they were done the stands were
The wood that was built the stands
And told people to come take it away
Okay
Building materials their Kings took that and they built the pier. There was a pair out there
Which the other day when the little water you could see the old oh when we had the all the water
(08:14):
I watched that break up that pier
in a storm in a northeast storm
And now it's just a little pile of sand with a few little poles around it
So but that was where they kept all the ice boats for many years
Okay, so rolling rolling back in time to 1909
(08:38):
Freshwater sailing or soft soft water sailing
Versus ice boating. What was the most popular back then? Well the
Kcat boats, okay, which we've got one of them back here. Yeah the part of
Okay
And that was a soft water
(08:59):
by the Tweedle fleet at
TYC and they were built here and Lukey built over a hundred of those Wow between
1920 and 1950 okay, and
consequently
There is a comment that at Putin Bay
They had private cats and club cats. They were the same boat, but the club cats had smaller sails and
(09:28):
There were over a hundred sailed at Putin Bay at some of the times during the 20s
Okay, so the Kcats were the biggest thing were the biggest fleet and
But ice boats there was a lot of was there a was there a one design ice boat back in the early
1900s when did the DN I know the DN Detroit news came along
(09:52):
but
The 15 meters we have that that you see here, right?
They were designed for the 1932 Olympics
and
but
Olympic Committee knew there was a problem with getting a place to sail and all of that and it was in Germany
(10:15):
Okay, and the design was there and their ice boaters were promoting it, but it never got never have around
But the designs went around
So that's the 15 meters square meters of sail. Okay, and we thought we were the only 15 meters around anymore
They're racing them in Russia
Latvia in Estonia today today. Wow
(10:39):
Okay, and we sent
Aaron stang and
JR Francis over as juniors
Who I know you heard those two guys
Sure have we sent them over as juniors to sail ice boats
Wow, and they ran into these people that were sailing the 15 meters
In Russia and they had a picture with
(11:03):
25 15 meters and a line to start. Well, Ken you were you were about to say something
the
These these boats of the
15 meters the 200s to 250
Which were the size of the sails is okay square feet, but
They needed a crew. They needed a lot of friends to put the boat on the ice take it off the ice
(11:29):
and
the Detroit news
ran a they had a
Almost like a do-it-yourself part in the paper and
the
original plans
for and an in an evolved sailboat or ice boat the dn
Came from the Detroit news, right?
(11:51):
And it was they that was the next up-and-coming boat because one person
could take
Bring it down on the ice. They could build it in their garage
And more importantly they could handle it. They could put it on their boat. They could transport it
And it just became
uh, probably the most famous class of ice boats right and I are isn't right now the uh,
(12:18):
World championships going on somewhere worlds have just ended in worlds ended. Yes, and where where were those held?
In Europe
That's
Estonia
Um you then the u.s. Is what this coming weekend or next weekend?
European championships, but it's going to be here. It's just getting over with the nationals are the u.s.
(12:39):
Nationals are next weekend. And where is that? Where is that? You don't know an ice boat. It's wherever the best ice will be
Wasn't it a fort? I've heard this before I've heard this before
And they say show up and so they show up travel and and show up minute
They tell you where and everybody drives to that location. All right
Owen took six of the top ten
In the world. Yeah, Estonia and Poland. Yep, Poland. They have big big so
(13:05):
So if you were to guess right now, how many dns are there worldwide?
The world's had a hundred and sixty three boats registered to race
Okay, and that's just a fraction obviously of all the action of the dns of what but that's the racing dns the best in the world
Were the dns ever compared to the world?
Or are they all commercially made now? They are there's a guy up in Detroit and it makes them he belongs to to to go ice yacht club
(13:31):
He's an 11th time world or national champion. I believe Ryan Sherry. He's building them commercially right now
Are they carbon fiber now or they still they're still there's still wood design wood boat to the same specs
Okay. So Ken you were saying and and John told me that you were talking about the
To the same specs and okay. So Ken you were saying and and John touched on this too
(13:54):
15 meter is not the length of the boat. It's the size of the sail
Okay, and you said
Then there were scales up from that
Well, there were but they all came before the ice boat has it is constantly evolving
Okay, and they found out that the amount of sail is not directly related to the speed of the boat
(14:20):
It's just not there because some of the new uh skeeters
Uh, they got like you might as well take an airplane wing
And stand it up straight. Yeah, they're solid wing and it's you know, you're they're top like the like america's cup stuff
There's one for sale out in wisconsin. It's it'll sail on ice and it also has wheels. You can also sail it in the desert
(14:42):
Okay, these these boats and their solid wing. They're a cockpits
I mean it's like going into a jet fuselage where the canopy comes down the sail in the spars behind you
Right and 140 150 mile an hour. They'll reach up to 100 miles an hour
These boats they're very fast and they sail they sail beautifully
(15:04):
They sail exactly, you know ice boats go fast sail boats go slower in the wind ice boats go faster
Right, I because I mean when you're when you're talking about a displacement hull you have a theoretical hull speed
And when you're talking about an ice boat, you have very little contact with the surface. It's just your runners
That's in contact with the surface. So the end hull is about 42 pounds
(15:27):
Okay, so you can sail because of apparent wind
faster than the winds
Actually, and you're four times faster. You're probably going to bring this up is that the runners themselves
Do don't even make contact with the ice because you're running on a thin
Waver of water is what you're really running on. Okay, and so it's
(15:50):
Slippery friction causes heat and heat melts a little bit of water and then you're riding on that
Runner, you're getting into very technicalities there and i'm not sure that we we want to solve that problem today
But they're fast, they're fast
They're fast
I know something's going on down there, but I don't know that I want to I I didn't want to bring this up
(16:14):
But i'm going to bring this up in about 1970. I built the first 15 meter that had been built in a long time
and
John gave me a big push in that direction
He sold me a backbone or the main fuselage for 15 meter. Okay now
(16:35):
I had to take it from his house, which was just off a lakeside back to my house, which was at the other end of lakeside
And I said john you're going to give me a hand he goes
And I think it was jack hugo and I had to carry that thing
And that's when we found out that you needed a lot of friends
(16:56):
But at dn don't have to have any friends. Well
It's a very selfish book
But the 15 meter is the reason I built one because I had at that time
I had two young kids right and they they wanted to go out sailing sure and uh, my son's idea of sailing was
To stand up whenever I wasn't looking he just put his hand on my shoulder and stand up in the cockpit and off we go
(17:24):
Till I looked over at him and found out that he was actually standing up. I was oh
And his mother's screaming at me. But anyway, that's another story
But it was it was something you could take people out and get them
um
you
What would be the word i'm looking for you could you could take them out?
And get them acquainted with ice boating without having to make a huge investment
(17:48):
Or borrow somebody's boat and have a chance
You're gonna break it if you were to build a dn today. What would it cost roughly?
I have to pass on that. I have asked ron ferrie that very question. Yeah, didn't get an answer
10 grand for a dn
Yeah, professionally built it was designed in 1939 or whenever right?
(18:13):
By these guys in detroit just as a little thing you could go play with and you can build it out of scrap lumber and right
you know and
They just keep improving that thing and these polish people
When you talk to the real good dn sailors
they have put fittings on their boat that just
(18:34):
Way over what the americans do or what u.s. So they're they're on they're on the cutting edge of this
They're the polisher on the cutting edge
Estonians
Some germans swedes and finnish are
Are very fast. I assume they're they're sailing on inland inland lakes and not the baltic sea. I would have fresh water
(18:54):
Fresh water, fresh water
Right, salt water no, please. Yeah too much
Yeah, who marked? We don't know about that. Don't refer from mommy bay. Yeah
Mommy bae's got other things. Yeah. Yeah, we have other problems
Yeah, one of the big problems with the dn. This is from my point of view is that the dn came with
(19:16):
specifications
every measurement on there was plus or minus and
things have changed and evolved and
And I wouldn't be surprised if if the polish people have put these things into wind tunnels
And figure it out, which is the best. Yeah, because
(19:36):
The rake of the the spar right and uh, how the sails were cut. I mean they might go there
Uh and have four or five different sails
And runners for the ice conditions. Yeah, i've heard that i've heard that you have different runners sometimes depending on what the condition if you're going to get
A dn and race it competitively you better have d pockets. Yeah 10 grand at least
(20:02):
That's just that's just starting. That's just a story. That's only one set of runners probably. Yeah
Okay
now when when they run now, obviously i'm i'm used to uh,
Soft water regattas are are our ice boat regattas run essentially the same way with the courses
Is with a start line a start line and you think about ice boating you're going faster in the wind
(20:26):
So even going downwind you're going faster in the wind. Okay downwind you're really good. You never let the sail out
It's a fact even going downwind you're you're going this this is a lot of the the stuff
That's happened in the last five ten years in america's cup too with the articulating wings. They're actually slow next ice boat
Wow, that's a but compared to my boat. They're extremely fast. They look slow, but that's ice boating
(20:53):
It's it's a lot like ice boating the new america's cup. Well, I know because they're they're
They're foiling they're foiling more and more
more and more boats, um
Eight like catamarans, um, there's foiling moths now and a lot more boats are starting to foil windsurfers
I mean the high speed things are starting to foil more as far as well. Well you get out you have no more drag
(21:17):
Are you reducing? Yeah, but as I watched the america's cup sailed, it's it's ice boating all over again
So on a on an ice boat
Regatta you're running a windward lured course. You're sailing extremely fast
How long is that course two miles three miles if you take over ten minutes, you don't come
Okay
(21:38):
Ten minutes is over. That's it. So what it's about two miles. Yeah, as long as you can make them
Yeah, two miles of course, right? You know, that's all you're going to get around here
They can have longer courses, right? You were I think the world was it was two meters over two meters are
kilometers
Two kilometers. Yeah, two meters would be about six feet. Yeah
(22:01):
Yeah, about one point four one point two one three miles john you were talking earlier about um
uh winter olympics has has uh ice boats ever made it into the winter olympics they've just
Because there are so many problems on getting ice right and uh, you can't plan on you've got
(22:22):
these guys
With their dns they drive up to northern michigan and then get on a telephone and say where am I going?
To go out slice right now. I believe it's in fort peck montana
And they're looking at driving the nationals in fort peck montana. That's wasn't there when they were last year
Yeah, they were last year. That's 22 and a half hours. I believe drive from here
And okay, so this
(22:44):
The nationals let's just assume for a second. They're going to be in montana
How many people will show up for that? Do you think hundred hundred?
Do they have classes? We'll have a little bit 10 12 boats of toledo ice yacht club. Okay
We don't have the best representation. Well, usually the biggest club really one of the biggest clubs in the country
(23:05):
Wow, what's the membership of toledo? We have what two and a quarter 240
Okay, so
A lot of people don't race ice so so you've got
Roughly the same membership that jolly roger has because I think we're at 250 and you don't have a clubhouse
So you come and you come here occasionally have a meeting only operate during the winter, right from november to march
(23:27):
Okay, and we have awards banquet and then the club just quits. We have a summer. We have a lot of um
Over the years the camaraderie in the ice yacht club has got extremely
It's it's very old and it's very storied and it's um, well, obviously there's a lot of there's a lot of camaraderie
When it comes to ice boating in toledo
And if you become somebody in the toledo ice yacht club, it's it's everybody in it's your friend for life
(23:53):
Yeah, well, I think that's that's that's the same with well one of the
I hate to say this but one of the things is the toledo ice yacht club
Has uh almost been uh asked to leave every yacht club
In the center of the town and some of the bars some of the bars too. Yeah. Yes, you're always welcome
(24:13):
You're always welcome here. We have um, number of years passed though, but we've always pretty well, you know
One party we had at tyc
My wife happened to chat with the bartender when it was some quiet times close to the end of the evening
And he said I never saw so many people
(24:37):
drink so much
And yet act so normal
And he frees it's any freeze for you guys. That's that's one of the
That's one of the things about iceboarding is that a lot of people have found out that they'll they'll put a beer
On their boat or in a cup holder on their boat and when the beer freezes
(24:57):
It's time to go in it's too cold
So but I could be wrong so
And and I know
Obviously the climate is always changing and I know it's been changing around here in the last
10 20 years. How long is your
Reasonably, how many times can you get out for ice right nowadays? You're looking for ice about three months. You're looking for it
(25:20):
um the last
Two years last year was terrible this year this year. I sailed six days
And I think i've done for the year last year. I sailed one day
um
Three years ago, I sailed 40 days
So it's you know, it varies from year to year to year and it's not something you can count on
But when it gets good, it's real good. Well, I I know even even as a
(25:44):
As a soft water sailor. We want to see the lake freeze because there's no evaporation
Yeah, it's good for the lake and and good for sail. Where we sail at is a very safe area
It's a closed in bay that ice doesn't go out
It's um, it's
Best kept secret in Toledo. I mean it's fine
Toledo, I mean as far as ice a sporting event, yeah, and um, it's
(26:09):
It's a very good thing out here. You still sail competitively. Yes. Okay. John you still sail competitively
I'm the current champion in the 15 meter class. Nice
Uh, unfortunately, that was 19 or 2016
Okay, they haven't had a race since then. Well, okay still congratulations. I'm hanging in there, but and I'm ready
(26:34):
But there's some young kids that probably can sheet in a hell of a lot quicker than I can now. Ken, what about you?
You still race competitively? No, I had a heart attack
About 20 years ago and I found out that uh cold weather and heart attacks just don't go together
so
I use that as an excuse because
I go out there and there was a guy named Jim Strimney in a 15 meter
(26:56):
And he was the very difficult to beat
as a matter of fact, we even probably sabotaged his boat a couple times so that we could win but uh
I think it was 1976
Uh, the Franklin Park
Mall
Had a display and we must have taken in how many boats John over there?
(27:19):
Over there, uh, maybe yeah a dozen boats dozen boats all together in the uh,
Right where the uh the atrium in there. Yeah, and uh,
a couple of the spars put nicks in the ceiling because trying to get a 30 foot stick up and
We had to be very careful and
that
(27:39):
provided more interest
Because the people coming out to the mall could see the boats and there was always somebody there and to talk about the sport
And that went over really well. I think it was the same year
That we also had the renegade nationals here. Yeah, and the renegades were a
a boat
up, it's a class boat up from
(28:01):
um the dns and now you have
John's boat which was the suite 16 is in there and you have knights and there's a lot of different classes
But the renegades when they had him here
and uh that year I had broke
my 15 meter broke the backbone
um
I
(28:21):
Put a spar through the deck of my dn
so
The renegade was the next boat I could destroy
and uh
First race I had never raced a renegade before in my life and the first race about 30 boats
They had to wait, you know
Less than 10 minutes. Well, I think they waited 15 minutes for me to finish
(28:44):
Because I was dead last. Yeah, I've been there. Yeah, and I
I come in and there's a bunch of old guys which would be
Guys in their late 60s, but I was in I was probably 30 35
And uh, so I said look all these boats are one design
Come on. Help me out here. This is embarrassing
(29:06):
You know help me out
And one guy says will you take this up turn this
Put a couple of notches in one and then stand on the foot pedals. It'll go
the next race
I had gotten down to the
Lured mark
The winner mark first lap
(29:27):
Before anybody else and I had gotten back to the other one and the
It's just the boat went faster and faster and faster and I thought
That it was fairly level and there's some pictures somewhere
that the
Runner plank is bent up in the air the spar kind of like eddie's picture eddie bernard's picture
(29:49):
And I got back
Made a loop came right back into the house and my wife says is there a problem?
And I says, yep
I've never gone so fast and I said and I spoke before
Scared the hell out of me
And I kept thinking about the front bolt that held the right front runner on
(30:10):
And I bought that at ace for 38 cents. Oh boy, and i'm thinking this is not good
The guy comes walking up. It was irwin out of putting bay
And he says uh russe irwin
And he says well, I'd like to have one of those I said well mine's for sale
Wow, he bought it right then and there and I was done with it. It was
(30:32):
It's just it that boat
Just scared me
now
well the
The thing about a run agade what he's talking about right you get them hooked up just right and there's another gear
That
You just can't find all the time right and the better sailors that sail them all the time right now. I've sailed run agades
(30:56):
some
And the one time we went up to castles
And the one time we went up to castlake and we're
And I was in the back of the fleet
And this ron sherry that's building the boats now his father
Lauren sherry I knew real well through the thistle sailing that I was doing with him. He sat on the back of my boat
(31:18):
While we were just parked waiting while the deans are racing
And he said john your master's over rotating
And so we sat and played with sliding the blocks back and forth
He'd say sheet it in i'd sheet it in
and when
Everything was better
He said okay try this
in the next race
(31:40):
I got up
Forced I think it was I was up with better guys
and
Another time I was sailing a boat in those races
and I just
Got it in gear in the second lap and I went right through the fleet man. I was going faster than anybody
anybody and
(32:01):
Then I thought boy I got it made now, you know, i'm going to win this race easily the third lap
I couldn't find it. I went back into my fourth or fifth place
You just you've got to get the mast so that
It rotates exactly perfectly with the sail
And of course building the sail i'm aware of this sure and
(32:24):
And we've really worked on the renegade sails to get them so that they would line up
But then you put them on a mast. It's a little more flexible
And then that doesn't work. You need some changes made or you get a mast that doesn't flex enough
They've got to flex just right to match the sail. Everything has to be perfect less you had a
(32:48):
A renegade still got a renegade. I still got a renegade. I uh, it was built in 1960
my renegade it's an older boat, but it's in
It's in furniture shape. It's it's almost perfect
It's um, they're a dream to sail and this is a one-person boat one-person boat. Okay
Yeah, it's a fuselage boat. You're down in you steer with your feet. Okay hands. All right, and
(33:12):
When he said you stand on the foot pedals, he's right, you know
This oh, yeah, and then and then um, oh, wow
Okay, so now
A dn is a is a tiller dn as a tiller
Okay, you still one hand you sheet with one hand but a renegade has foot pedals with steering by you steer with your feet
Like you would a plane. Okay, and they still race renegades. Yes. Okay every chance I ever get i'll sell a renegade
(33:38):
And then the finest sailing craft i've ever been in and then what would a renegade run?
Renegades are right now. Um right now everybody wants a knight, which is a small renegade, but it'll sail two people
And they're the ones that people are really going after right now, right renegades are kind of down in price
But um a good renegade is three to five thousand dollars
(33:59):
Which isn't too bad for what they'll do. You'd have trouble building one for that. Yeah
Oh, they're very expensive because of the warm cycle of weather. We're in ice boats are very reasonable right now
But demand is down obviously. Yeah, the demand's not because the season's been so short
But um, you know, there's your photos
Ken of being in Franklin Park, Franklin Park, Moe
(34:22):
Okay, so let's let's talk a little bit about safety equipment
Everybody now sails with helmets. I'm assuming sail with helmets you sail most people has
Not that you ever get into water a lot of people in inland
Lakes and stuff where the water's deeper than what we sail in they'll have ice picks
Pull themselves out a hole if they ever were to fall in okay out here where we sail
(34:45):
We're lucky because it's only about three four feet deep. So if you went in you could stand up stand up, right?
And um, you know, it's never any deeper. That's that's what one of the good things about
Mommy bay is where we sail. It's a good thing that um, it freezes
There's very little very little ice in the water
There's very little very little we have one current line
(35:07):
It runs down the middle of the bay that we sail around you have to watch but it's a very it's a very safe place to sail
um, it's closed in from a channel by
Where they dug the Toledo channel they dumped the spoils on each side of it
Okay, and that holds our ice in so the ice doesn't float away with you on it, right like ice fisherman
(35:27):
It's way different way different what ice fisherman. It's um, I ice I are I
I our ice stays
Um, just like an inland lake would stay. Okay, but
Still we're on lake here. We get the wind off the lake area and stuff and it's sure
It's the ice is like the big ice. It's like you're sailing on a big lake compared to inland lake sailing
(35:48):
but like
we have
uh
three basic classes of boats, am I right we have the
Dn, of course the renegade and the 15 meters
Okay, and then there might be a couple of knights or arrows and sweet 16s
It'll come in and we have we have a pretty good little skimmer fleet going too
(36:10):
Which is a very inexpensive little metal boat that's commercially built
And the skimmers are very reasonable under a thousand dollars
Um under a thousand no a thousand dollars under a thousand under a thousand you can buy them for and
They're they're easily transported by one person easily set up
and we're getting to be have
(36:31):
Eight ten of them sailing when we sail
And it's not the kind of boat I would want to be on but a lot of people like the portability of them
Okay, it's almost a trapeze type seat. Isn't it? Yeah, they're metal. They're built on trapeze. That's the wrong term
Yeah, so like a cloth seat. Yeah
now what um
What's the biggest?
(36:52):
ice boat
That would be in the area of the great lakes. Let's say and and what size crew they raced a lot of them up and down
The Hudson River there was a big
Years ago years to go back in the day
Companies would own ice boats and they'd be professional crews sailing them
(37:15):
And there was a lot of uh, there was a lot of uh bigger ice boats
And they were able to design them and then they were able to design the
Sweet 16
You design that yeah
I'm seeing some boats here with uh opti sales on dns. They make they make iced optimist
(37:35):
That we have a few around here that sail they're made for junior sailors. That's moving into the moving up in ice floating
So they can't go as fast, right? They're they're very popular. They're very kids boats in europe are very popular
There's uh, well opti's are popular in europe. There was an opti ice nationals
(37:56):
held the same time that the dn
worlds will help
See now that would scare me
Like fresh. Well, that's the problem we have is that we don't cross that channel. Yeah
Because it's wet
The only thing that you can
I didn't know what it was, but I felt like I was on a roller coaster
(38:18):
because the bow wave from that leg freighter went over those
Spoils on both sides and came on and then
As it rolled off the bottom and hit the ice and rolled that bow wave off that leg freighter
Caused that ice what about a foot it'll you can see waves under the ice and you can see the ice moving up and down
Wow, so you're out there and all of a sudden you're a foot higher. Wow
(38:42):
a foot lower but uh
Getting back to what les was talking about
uh, the dodge brothers and dodge cars right ford
Uh, they would race on lake saint claire. Okay, and uh those both
One was called fernand for nanda blow. There were big boats. I don't know what they call them. They're big big
(39:03):
Big but they'd have a they'd have a substantial crew then yes. Um, the strainer hands had a boat in toledo
Spark plug wasn't it? That was with my walter dicks. That was
It became the hubba hubba when I was a kid
Some guys bought it and it was an old boat and they painted it up and that was a strainer hand boat
I believe wasn't it?
(39:25):
So that's when they joined
It came from tyc and they joined king's ice shot club in 1922
The toledo safety director guy named
D'angelo
I can't remember his first name. That's who had my boat. He had two arctic one arctic two
I've got arctic one
Which came from detroit?
(39:47):
It only had a 24 foot backbone
instead of a 25 foot 8
Which is all of them are 25 foot 8 now
and this 24 foot backbone
would uh
Spin out too easy. It didn't have the triangle wasn't big enough
For the amount of sail and that's the way they originally were and that boat was built in detroit in
(40:10):
1934 and it came down here and they
Played off of there were two boats
Red mcginnis had one and uh, and this d'angelo had one
Well, then d'angelo had another boat built by the toledo guys. It was more competitive with the
(40:32):
Like the toledo boats the soc brothers built it
And so this boat once I built a backbone that was 25 foot 8 inches
the boat
Stayed on the ice better and so everyone started then building that backbone. You're talking about
items here
The center of effort on that sail was about right below the 15. Would that be about right john, right?
(40:57):
Yeah, well if you just cross the lines and so
Right there what would happen if the boat was wasn't set up right the faster you would go that center of effort
Would act like a fulcrum
on this and it would actually lift
the stern stair the
This part of the boat
(41:18):
It would actually it doesn't stay on the ice well enough and what would happen then is you of course lose control
Stair and the boat would just spin. Oh my gosh now there's a in sailing
When you get into the wisconsin group and the big guys
They've got abc classes
And the c class
(41:38):
Is 140 square feet of sail
Well, our 15 meters are 156 square feet of sail. We're too big for that
So I have built about six or seven sails
That are c-class sails
Okay, which only have a 10-foot boom
Instead of a 12-foot. Okay, and with that sail
(42:01):
They go damn near as fast as a 15 and through a lot of wind they'll go and they're they're just holding ice much better
They sail much better. Yeah, they sail much better
So kind of like sometimes
Your boat sails better if you put a reef in yeah, yeah, sometimes sails better
So so if if someone who's listening to this has nothing
(42:23):
Knows nothing about ice boat yachting at all and they wanted to get into it
What would they do? Where would they go?
A lot of different ice yacht clubs throughout the night the united states. There's in minnesota in new york in the east coast on maine
Massachusetts sundusky has ice yacht club. There's most towns winter towns have ice yacht clubs, right?
(42:47):
Probably not one in san antonio. Yeah, when you get it back to the camaraderie that ice boaters have once you get back to
Anybody who walks on the ice I tell you what anybody has an ice boat will talk to you about it
I'll show you how they work and
It's very few people will not that own an ice boat will not right help you. All right, it's a
(43:07):
extremely friendly, right and
The there is a competition there's no doubt there's sure sure sure sure but if you ask
Like when I was with the renegade and I said, come on guys. What am I doing wrong? Right?
Everybody coming out everybody most people came over and says well do this do this and it'll go
(43:28):
Well with the dns and and this group here
Extremely friendly
And they'll go out of their way to help you as a matter of fact if you were back in the day
We would we designed a trailer. They would haul
You know six or seven eight dns up to devils lake or castle
(43:48):
and
friday night
Say somebody would say I need a ride. Yeah. Well, we'll we'll fit you in somehow
Just gave your boat down in a certain time. We'll take you up
What I mean, it's just fantastic
What questions have I not asked that I should have asked?
I think that last question was a good question
(44:11):
You need to go to somebody who is an ice boater and say is there
A boat I can buy pretty cheaply to get started on now. There's dns around here
that
Are not competitive
The competitive dns now have a fiberglass mass and that's one of the biggest changes that has come along
(44:33):
I built my grandson's boats
But I built wooden mass for them. I don't have a lot of money
And I told him I says here you go
They got wooden mass. So when you get old enough and get some money, you can buy a new fiberglass mask. Yeah, but
That dn will still teach you how to do it
(44:54):
That dn will still teach you how to sail
right and you can get these older dns and
And for not a lot of money
And go out and go sailing and then if you really want to get competitive
Yeah, okay. I got to get a new mask and then keep going but you can work your way up. Oh, yeah
Yeah, I mean because what you have is legal
(45:17):
You can race the dn
And say every year I want to improve this i'm getting better. I want the boat to be better and I would imagine
What a couple hundred bucks you could find one there in somebody's garage. They're reasonable now. I mean ice boats are very reasonable
And um, well like you said the demand is down because there's not as long as
(45:41):
1500 dollars you can buy a pretty nice dn nowadays. That would be a competitive
Yeah, no for around 10 10 grand for the competitive one, right john 10 grand for the competitive. Well
You don't need to go that far. You can build them yourselves. Yeah, and you don't have to have that much, you know
To be competitive around here
(46:02):
Now if you want to go all the way to the world's if you want to race against the polish guys saying
Then you're looking at you got to get the best of everything
Okay, but uh the guys that went around here most of them have built their own boats
The member the member that we have that's sailing the worlds in estonia right now. He keeps boat in europe
(46:22):
So he just has to fly over it just flies over there's quite a few europeans that keep their boats in united states
Somebody that ice boats house and they just fly over here and they pick their boat up and go
Right. I think it's just a fascinating story of of the dn is that you have a newspaper and
and somebody
Sketches out or designs or an ice boat and then it becomes this world-class
(46:50):
Vessel to to compete and and to sail on and it and it just started probably as hey
Let's put this in the sunday newspaper this week and see what happens. There's a guy in uh,
Kalamazoo which is on what's what?
Gold Lake and he keeps uh, four european boats in his bar. Wow
(47:15):
For the europeans, I mean he just for when they come over when they come over their boats to do north americans
And uh, so they're always have four european boats in his bar. Is there any racing in the southern hemisphere?
Any ice boat racing in the southern hemisphere? I've never heard any ice boat race probably just doesn't get doesn't get cold antarctica
Maybe but the newest country to start ice boat this year and they were at the worlds with china
(47:40):
Really starting now they're starting to have a chinese national
Okay, and they're starting to be ice boating and some of the europeans and some of the americans I believe went to china
Yeah, and was helping that fleet form and get started actually started
Well, i'm sure they've got in some areas of china. They've got frozen lakes. I would think yeah
What would when erin would go to europe to compete?
(48:03):
What did he take with him? Because I know he had a fuselage over there. He'd take a sail and a sail in the center runners
That's what he would take. Yeah
and uh
They had a
747 that
Or i'm not i'm shooting here. I i'm not sure but they there were people that took their whole boats
(48:25):
over and
How did how did that work out? I mean?
But erin he had
Or he left a boat there, I mean i'm not sure
The nearest competitive guy we got is jara francis, right?
Jara francis, well ron sherry's ones. Well, I know ron is yeah
There's a few other I mean i'm talking about local guys
(48:48):
right, uh
and it's just
There's a guy who's gold fleet peat, huh peat
What's his name? He's he's a guy that sails and he'll
What's it?
Johansson pete johanson will go on sailing
You know, he'll travel a lot stuff. We got guys that we got a dozen guys to lido that will travel any place in the country
(49:10):
Sail right now big can is there a big canadian?
um
A few canadians. Yeah, a few canadians. Yeah, I would think them being farther up north. It seems like uh, what they sail in
They sail up in edmonton. I believe and stuff up in there. There's some boats up in there
And around I see a lot of activity up in like thunder bay
(49:30):
Okay, superior. Yeah up there. They there's some guys that sail quite a bit up there minnesota and wisconsin is very much a hot spot
Right as the east coast is too the anorondex east coast when they're not snowed out
Okay, what's the uh, the lake at madison?
Um wisconsin minidota and minona and they race on those a lot madison wisconsin is probably one of the biggest
(49:53):
Spots that's where all the big skeeters and stuff run
Okay
Well gentlemen, thank you so much. I know a lot more about ice boating now
Next time you next time you ask me to go out lester. I might actually go
You might actually like it. I might i'll have to buy some long johns. That's for sure
I'll see you at the store right anytime. All right. Thank you. John. There's ice. Well true today. Probably not a good day
(50:20):
I've been
Found this article and this is from 1937 the year I was born
Ice boat racing over a 10 mile course on umami bay will be held every sunday afternoon this winter at king's ice yacht club
This goes at the meeting last night races will be held for the first time here
(50:41):
In the 15 meter class type boats, there will be 12 local racers already having entered this class
Entered in the 200 foot class marconi rigged
Class are five boats
In the 200 foot gafferig class, there are six boats
now the
(51:05):
Almost all ice boats up until
the
1925 to 28
Were gafferig really?
This was way too, yeah sailing
Sure cat boats and all that kind of stuff
Was that gafferig too and they were pretty much all gafferig and then in the 20s
(51:30):
In the 20s
They realized that the marconi rig was faster, right?
in most conditions sure and
so consequently
the
Boats shifted over to marconi rigs and this is what we have here is where they say there's
(51:52):
Five marconi rig and six gafferig they sailed them separately because they weren't competitive with each other
Now I can tell you there were some kids that had a
Had a 200 when I was a boy
And I had a 15 meter
And I could sail circles around them on good ice all the time
(52:17):
and then
During christmas vacation there came this big snow
And now the gafferig boat has a boom that's as long as a mast and a big gap pull
So it's a short fat sail
And they can plow through the snow
They kept going. Yeah and sailed right along and uh
(52:43):
I get stuck in the snow with my marconi rig
So you
Ideally you you don't want snow on the ice. No when you're out there you want it to be clear
Okay, cool
All right, guys
Thank you guys. Thank you much. Appreciate it. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you
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