October 14, 2024 • 42 mins
In this episode of 'Bread for the People,' host Jim Serpico revisits his first podcast episode that featured Dan Richer, the chef and owner of the acclaimed pizza restaurant Razza and author of 'The Joy of Pizza.' They discuss the art and science of pizza making, including techniques such as dough fermentation, ingredient selection, and the importance of experimentation. Richer shares insights from his culinary journey, including his transformative experiences in Italy and his approach to entrepreneurship in opening Raza. The episode highlights the value of continual learning and passion in the culinary arts. Jim and Dan emphasize the role of taste tests and adapting recipes, focusing on using local ingredients. Throughout the dialogue, there is a mutual curiosity about the culinary craft, and Dan expresses a desire to visit Jim's operation for further collaboration.
SHOW NOTES
00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:14 Revisiting the First Episode with Dan Ritcher
01:21 The Joy of Pizza: Insights and Techniques
03:33 Challenges and Adaptations in Bread Making
08:11 The Sensory Experience of Baking
08:55 Journey to Italy and Culinary Inspirations
20:03 From Employee to Entrepreneur
21:45 The Early Struggles and Success of Rata
23:01 Turning Point: Selling the First Restaurant
23:37 Accolades and Recognition
25:06 Building a Strong Team
28:51 The Science and Art of Dough
34:04 Home Pizza Baking Craze
40:17 Final Thoughts and Future Plans
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/jim-serpico-bread-for-the-people-sourdough-pizza-life--5704379/support.
SHOW NOTES
00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:14 Revisiting the First Episode with Dan Ritcher
01:21 The Joy of Pizza: Insights and Techniques
03:33 Challenges and Adaptations in Bread Making
08:11 The Sensory Experience of Baking
08:55 Journey to Italy and Culinary Inspirations
20:03 From Employee to Entrepreneur
21:45 The Early Struggles and Success of Rata
23:01 Turning Point: Selling the First Restaurant
23:37 Accolades and Recognition
25:06 Building a Strong Team
28:51 The Science and Art of Dough
34:04 Home Pizza Baking Craze
40:17 Final Thoughts and Future Plans
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/jim-serpico-bread-for-the-people-sourdough-pizza-life--5704379/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Bread for the People, and my name is
Jim Curpico. We're dropping this episode on Labor Day and
we're about nineteen episodes into the Bread for the People
podcast series since it debuted, and I thought it might
be a good time to revisit and go all the
way back to our very first episode in case some
(00:20):
of you missed it, I had an amazing guest named
Dan Richer, who is the chef and owner of Raza.
Raza is known throughout the country as one of the
best pizza restaurants in the United States. Dan Richer is
the author of the pizza making book Joy of Pizza.
It's my favorite book on pizza ever written. The book
has become a New York Times bestseller. Again, I wanted
(00:43):
to revisit this one. It was a very special episode
to me. Big thanks to Dan for agreeing to be
the first guest ever on Bread for the People. I
hope you listened to this on the beach or by
the pool. Let me know what you think of it.
Enjoy this episode of Bread for the People. My name
is Jim Curpico and this should I start with my name?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
What should I start with?
Speaker 3 (01:03):
This is Bread for the People.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Do you like it like this Welcome to bread, or
do you like it like this Welcome Ready, Welcome to
bread for the people mine?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Is there a script?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I have to say, this book, The Joy of Pizza
is just so amazing on so many levels. And you know,
before I knew of you from Peter Reinhardt, I knew
about this book and wanted this book for Christmas. And
I've read the book, but I think it's going to
take me years to really digest everything that's in it.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
There's a lot, There's a lot, Yeah, there's a lot.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Yeah, because pizza is this.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
Such a simple food to understand, but to really get
good at producing it, it takes.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
A lot of practice and a lot of thought.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
And this the book was, you know, the first you know,
eighteen nineteen years of my pizza making experience, everything I learned,
everything I learned put into one one book.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I mean it's obvious.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I know you had someone, Katie Parla, helped you out
with this, Yes, you must have. You both must have
put a lot of thought and time into the structure
of the book. To me, it's a book for home bakers,
for home pizza makers as well as professionals and That's
that's the part. Like for me, some of it's a
(02:32):
little over my head in a good way, because that's
that's what I want to learn exactly.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
It's going to push you to manage Doe temperatures and
really think about your product because it doesn't have to
be just applied to pizza. Right, the skills and the
methods are applicable to anything you choose to produce.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Right with the whole rubric where.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
It's an evaluation system, it's really a way to identify
what you're trying to create and then you figure out
through practice and science, how to how to produce those characteristics.
So it can be applied to a grilled cheese sandwich.
If you really love grilled cheese sandwiches and there's certain
(03:18):
characteristics that you're looking for in your ultimate grilled cheese,
then you know, at least name those characteristics and then
it gives you a roadmap for producing your next grilled cheese.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
You know, for me, it's been trial and error and
just barely enough science to get through this because also.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
I have limited tools.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
You know, I'm still we're thinking about moving into a
bigger place to produce more and I'm to be honest
with you. I'm a little afraid because I have my
ways that I've figured out for me through trial and
error less science. I probably luckily fell into science that
I don't even realize.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
I'm the same way.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
I'm not a scientist at all, but I have a
strong desire for knowledge. And if somebody tells me you
should use this technique or you should do it this way,
I don't blindly accept that as fact. I want to
know why, Like why do I need to auto lease
(04:26):
my dough? Why do I have to wait that extra
twenty minutes to an hour? And once you learn about it,
once you read enough books about it and do enough experiments,
you realize, oh, yes, it's important.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
That technique makes sense to me. I need to employ
that always.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
It is auto leasing really important because I don't do it. Okay,
I've experimented with it, but somehow, again, it could be
just pure luck. Given a good bulk rise, I bake
two different ways. One is I and this is I'm
(05:06):
talking about sour though. I do an extended bulk ferment
a minimum of six hours, and then I do a
refrigerated bulk ferment for anywhere between twelve and twenty four
hours and then I shape and I bake.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
That works for me?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
It does?
Speaker 3 (05:24):
That works?
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Yeah, And I don't know any bread baker that tells you,
any bread baker that tells you know you're wrong or
that that's not right that doesn't work. Then, I mean
it works. Anything can work. But can it always be better? Probably?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Probably?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
And that's why sometimes I feel like a little bit
of a fraud, to be honest with.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
You, So do I We all do, okay, but.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
You're not because you're making You're making product and it's
selling and people are enjoying it and they came coming back.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
That is true, and that sometimes I just want to why, because.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
They can feel the love that you're putting into it.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
I think that is part of it. I mean, we
are putting a lot into it, and we share a
lot of what we're putting into it.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
And that part of it too, which crosses into the
marketing side of things. I am very interested in. I
like making people laugh, and I like using this bread
company as a vehicle to make people laugh and get
my creativity out, you know. Having the background that I
have in television was and I still work in television,
(06:36):
but it's painfully slow, and you don't always get the
opportunities to create. You're constantly waiting, could be six months
to two years to find out whether or not this
project is going to go or not. And I love
making content around bread on a daily basis. Yeah, and
(06:56):
then I and then I have to to get over
this fraud thing.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
I really have to learn earn it. So I am
really learning how to make breath.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Yeah, me too, I'm still learning, man, but a lot
of fears.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
We're looking at a possible location to move to scale
up to get bigger ovens, more than one oven, And
I was in the space the other day and it
was cold, and I'm like, what's gonna happen? Like this
could throw everything off from me because I've been baking
in the same place. I've been rising my bread in
(07:29):
the same bucket for so long. If the temperature drastically changes,
what the hell am I going to do?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
You're gonna figure it out.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
And it's scary at the beginning because there's so much
that is unknown, but you're gonna figure it out. And
that's where practice and repetition come in, and honestly, a
lot of failure. You know that first week of baking
in that new space. The bread's gonna come out completely different.
(07:58):
You're gonna not be happy with it. But then you're
going to realize, oh, the room is a little cold,
my refrigeration is a little bit colder than the one
that I was using. You're going to figure those things out.
And that's one of the things that I love about
pizza and bread making is you have to It's a
full sensory experience. You have to be aware of all
(08:20):
of your senses smell, taste, touch, how it feels.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
You have to feel the room and all of.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
The external factors that are playing into how the dough
is behaving.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
And you're going to figure it out.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Humans are adaptable, Okay, I'm trusting you.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yeah, trust yourself, trust myself, and if it all goes bad.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
If it all goes bad, just call me and I'll
help you figure out which variables do you're not managing.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
I'm going to take you up on that, because I'm
sure it's going to go bad. So I read in
your bio that you took a trip to Italy, but
it didn't go into the details of how long you
were there and what you did. That actually is something
that I did with my family. It was it was
a pleasure vacation. But we took cooking classes in Florence
(09:12):
and it really piqued our interest and started our Sunday
ritual of making pasta together, which led to where we
are now.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
So what was your journey in Italy?
Speaker 4 (09:22):
Like so, I just I was looking for an adventure
for in that first trip, I just graduated college. I
didn't know what I wanted to do for the rest
of my life. I was working in a restaurant as
a manager throughout college. My cousin was studying architecture in Rome,
and on a whim, I booked a flight for two
(09:43):
weeks and traveled top to bottom, a new city each
each day. And I fell in love with with.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Real Italian food.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
And we have a lot of Italian restaurants here in
New Jersey that I'd been going going to all my
all my life. But the food was so different, and
the food was so different from place to place.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
You know. The food in.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Bologna was completely different than the food in Salerno, and
I just thought that was extraordinary. And it was it
was the pasta that really got me excited. I don't
think I ever tasted fresh pasta or yoki. That wasn't
like a like a lead pellet in your in your stomach.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
You know.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
It was light and airy and tomato sauce that was
that had a balance of sweetness and acidity. But it
wasn't that, you know, that deep, long cooked, super rich
and acidic tomato sauce that that I grew up eating
in New Jersey. It was light, it was fresh, it
(10:53):
was it was subtle and elegant, and I wanted to
know why.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
So then I started. I started cooking immediately.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
And since that first trip, I've been to Italy well
over thirty times. Wow, And I still feel like I'm
just scratching the surface of that country, that little tiny country.
There's so much to discover there.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Now, the tomatoes that you refer to, are they called
san Marciano?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
How do you pronounce it?
Speaker 3 (11:26):
San Martano?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
San Martano? Is that the tomato you're referring to?
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Absolutely not?
Speaker 4 (11:33):
No, okay, no, no, yeah, I don't subscribe to the
whole You have to use San Martano tomatoes and double
zero flour. Those our marketing techniques that are employed by
those companies. They've done a great job. Because everybody thinks
you have to use San Marzano tomatoes. But I believe
(11:56):
that you should do double blind taste tests of all
the different tomatoes that you could realistically purchase. So I
go to the supermarket, and every time I'm at the supermarket,
I scan the tomato aisle. I look for a new
brand or something interesting. I bring it home, I taste
it up against two or three other tomatoes in a
(12:19):
blind manner. You know, I'm not looking at the labels.
I don't care where it comes from. I don't care
how beautifully designed the label is or how authentic it is.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I'm using my taste buds.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
And in the book, we have a tomato evaluation system
where it teaches you how what to look for in
a tomato. It's sweetness, acidity, texture, the amount of seeds
and skins, and a couple of other characteristics. So if
you're tasting with this with these characteristics in mind, there's
(12:52):
always there's usually a clear winner, and that's the tomato
that you should use, not one from a mythical place
called San Martano.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
You know San Marzano's.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
That area is a very small region, and there's worldwide
demand for this product. They can't possibly produce high quality
tomatoes for worldwide demand out of a very small area.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
It's just not possible.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
So let's go back. So you come home from Italy
and you're all.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Fired up, fired up. First thing I did was make
a batch of tomato sauce for what reason?
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Just for yourself?
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Or were you starting to think about business ideas because
at this point you were still an employee somewhere or
were you between jobs.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Yeah, yeah, no, I was an employee at a restaurant.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
But it was so during that time, my mom was
very sick with cancer, and it was those plates of
food and those batches of tomato sauce that brought my
friends and family together for me to help me because
(14:00):
I needed people. I needed people around, I needed the support.
And it wasn't until many years later and a ton
of therapy that I realized that that was my conduit.
That was my way of saying, I need people, I
need support, and it worked. You know, food brings people together,
(14:20):
and I'll never I'll never forget that time and the
thousands of other times that it brought people together when
I needed them.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Yeah. It's also I think nostalgic in a way because
I've been thinking about how did I make this pivot
and why? And I do think it has something to
do with my father's love of food. It wasn't a baker,
it wasn't a professional cook.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
He loved to eat, he loved to cook.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
But I think there is some kind of connection to
the types of things I bake and.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
What he would have loved. Definitely, there's definitely something.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
There without it's a way to connect.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
And so my mom was a calligrapher, like she practiced
her handwriting all day every day.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
That was her thing.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
So and it was her work ethic and the repetition
that I saw her as a do as a kid.
That stuck with me, and I do the same thing.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
It's I'm doing one thing.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
I'm constantly on repeat and paying attention to my last
batch and making subtle corrections going forward and just keep
at it and keep going. And I'm able to channel
her through my repetition and it it really helped my
(15:44):
grief and losing her.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I'm going to ask you the same question I get
asked a lot.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Does that bore you? Does it bore you doing that
same thing every day? Repetition? Yeah, you're tweaking it. How
do you how do you feel about that.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
I am not bored in the least bit. So I
also started by making tomato, making pasta. That was my
first like real thing that I wanted to understand and nail,
and that I did get bored of because at the
end of it, like, yeah, I have great pasta, do
I can make all these fancy little shapes and they're gorgeous,
(16:23):
they're delicious.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
But I got bored of that.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
It wasn't until I started making pizza and baking bread
that it seems like it's this endless journey of repetition
because there is so much to learn. There's so much
to learn, whether it's you know, changing your your dough
temperature or you're starting starter feeding regimen, or changing flowers.
(16:53):
If I change my flower, it'll take me six months
of trials to really nail it and to make the
decision whether I want to move forward with this new flower.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
My base flower I haven't changed since I started. I
think I got lucky with I think you use I
think because I've heard that you use King Author bread
flour as part of your mix.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Is that true?
Speaker 4 (17:21):
That's a good one. I don't use their bread flour. Okay, Yeah,
I use their all purpose flour, which is a winter wheat,
which I like a little bit better for artisan breads
because it's higher protein quality, lower protein but higher protein
quality than the bread flour. The bread fowler is great,
(17:42):
though it's awesome. Both of those products are fantastic to me.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Right, the higher the protein, the better chance for crumb. So,
for instance, I was originally making my whole wheat bread
with a mix of whole wheat flour probably forty to
fifty and bread flour and AP flour. I switched, I
took away the AP and I went to all bread,
(18:09):
and I found I got a fluffier are or crumb,
And it was a I don't know if it was
a cheat or what it was.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
Maybe you might have also changed something else in the process.
You might have also just been so used to handling
that dough that you got better at it over time.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Right, that's for sure. Forty uh.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
A wheat flour is going to lead to a denser
crumb no matter what, because it's got all that the
sharp particles of brand in it that kind of cut
through the gluten, making the crumb a little bit tighter
and a little bit more dense. But you know you
can get a beautiful open crumb with with a lower
(18:53):
protein flour.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Can you get how about hundred percent whole week? I
know we're getting into so for people who don't make bread,
this it might be, but we'll get back to the
journey in a minute. But with with one pure whole week,
can you get open crumb?
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Uh? You'll probably you'll get much less open crumb.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
Yeah, I wouldn't say definitively you cannot, but it's definitely
going to be tighter. But you can make great products
with one hundred percent whole week. I was just at
my friend Pam Young did a residency. She's a chef
at Blue Hillstone at Stone Barns, and she was making
pizza for a few weeks there this summer, and she
(19:34):
was doing one hundred percent whole week pizza. And it
it was crispy, it was light, it was airy, and it.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Was one hundred percent whole week. Wow.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
All right.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
I don't recommend it personally because I don't want to
eat that on a daily basis. It's not my platonic
ideal of bread or pizza. But if it's all you've got,
of course, you can make something fantastic.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Stick out of it.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah, absolutely all right.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
So back to your professional journey. When did you make
your move to become an entrepreneur and start your own place.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
I bought a failing restaurant in two thousand and six.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
Okay, I maxed out three credit cards, borrowed small sums
of money from a bunch of people, and bought this
restaurant that was pre existing. It was doing poorly, but
it happened to have two wood fire ovens, and.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Yeah, and that was that was one of the biggest
successes of my life.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
It's just at twenty six year old, I don't come
from money, and I got the deal done and I
owned a restaurant at twenty six. It was really a
transitional moment in my life. And once I had the
space and I had the you know, I had a
(20:57):
twenty year commercial lease. I had to get up out
of out of bed every day and make sure that
my team could get paid and that that rant could
get paid.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
That sounds like an extraordinary long lease.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
That's not.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Oh yeah, So how how did you fall into this place?
And was was the location grade? I know you said
the ovens were really attractive to you, that you must
have some burning passion, like this is the place.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Yeah, you know, I knew the previous owners and they
told me, go come work for us for two or
three years and then we'll sell it to you.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
And that's what happened. It was. It was pretty crazy
that that it actually happened.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Wow. Yeah, And how long did it take for you
to realize this was working?
Speaker 4 (21:45):
About six months in. It was very busy, really yeah,
it was.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
It was. It was fast, and then five years later
I'm like.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
Yeah, the restaurant was so busy with lines out the door,
and it was more of a just trying to keep
up with the pace. I wasn't able to be creative.
The place was kind of running itself at that point,
(22:18):
and I was bored. So I started Ratta in twenty
twelve and I just parked myself there.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
And for the first four years it was very, very slow,
and so I.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Was expecting maybe six months of pain and not being busy,
but it took it took four and a half years
to really get enough people in the door, to get
everyone paid and to take any money from the business.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
So what do you think happened after four and a
half years? Was it word of mouth? Was there one
specific award or.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
In a newspaper.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
The first thing that I did is I sold the
first restaurant, the successful one, because I believed in Ratza.
I believed in Jersey City. I knew what we were
doing was our food was better than the first restaurant.
I knew it didn't. It wasn't realizing its full potential.
And it's because I was My time was divided and
(23:27):
I couldn't put the effort into the to Ratza that
I think it needed. So six months after I sold
the restaurant, it was busy. We got a New York
Times review. The review was so good that we've been
busy pretty much every day since then.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Now, ultimately, is it you, personally or the restaurant that
was named best pizza in North America?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
The restaurant, the restaurant.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Yeah, And was that a shock to you?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
I quite a shock. Yeah?
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Did you know you were even in consideration? Like, how
does something like that happen?
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Ah? I don't know, I have no idea. Yeah, I
don't know.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
All those lists are are they're kind of nonsense, but
they help. Yeah, yeah, they help in their special And
I flew to flew to Naples and they had this
giant ceremony in a very old hall, kind of like
Carnegie Hall, and I'm up on stage accepting this award.
(24:37):
It was in front of all the I mean, the
Italians went they love this stuff, they love this this
particular list, and.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
It was it was a special moment.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
But it's not the reason why I do it or
you know, I don't do it for the praise. I
don't do it for any of those reasons. They're they're nice,
like they're a nice pat on the back.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
But yeah, but it helped with whatever marketing you have
to do, and it's that could be worse things than
being named best pizza in North America.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's an honor for sure.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Do you have someone that a right hand person that
you rely on, because I'm noticing for me, you know,
in my case, my wife is that person. There's just
so many logistics and so many other things that go
into making this business work that have nothing to do
(25:28):
with the actual baking. And I can only imagine with
what you have going on. And you have a family,
a young family. I believe you know you there must
be people in your life that help you do this.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
Oh yeah, yeah, we have a huge team of people
at the restaurant at this point, at the beginning, it
was I felt very alone, and I was alone day one.
That's my sign of success, Like I feel successful when
my team, when the culture of the restaurant is thriving,
(26:03):
when the people are happy, when one of my one
of my teammates buys a house or has a baby,
like that's what That's how I measure success. The more
of those moments that happen. You know, somebody can buy
a house by making pizza at Ratza. That's amazing. But yeah,
(26:28):
you got to you gotta start building and nurturing. Just
like you nurture your your sourdough starter, you have to
nurture your team.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
And that's the that's the the.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
Big difference between successful food businesses and uh and not
did did all.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Of these people have an interest in food or study
baking or cooking? Or do you think it's possible to
take someone who just wants to be part of a
team and a team player and teach them from scratch.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Those are my favorite people to work with, people who
just really want to be a part of the team
and they have a slight interest in it. We had
a kid maybe five years ago, didn't have the best
time in college. He just wanted a job as anything,
(27:20):
any part of the business. He just needed a job.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
So we started him. We didn't know if he was
going to be the right.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
Fit for the front of the house, back of the house,
so we gave him a few days in the dishwasher
and a few days as a server assistant, a bus boy,
and he grew with us over the past five years.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
He is now.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
Running our dough program for all of our bread making
and all of our pizza making.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
At the restaurant. He studied this.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
Yeah, his name's Jonah. That was just with him ten
minutes ago talking about dough. He's learned the science, he's
done the work, and now he's you. He understands it
very very well. And those are my favorite type of
people who to work with.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I mean, that's amazing. I think it's also amazing that
you have a dough program.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Oh you have to.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
You should see our binders and our spreadsheets.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
It's all you know.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
Because bread making is formulaic, right, So whether you make
whether you make one loaf of bread or ten thousand
loaves of bread, it's pretty much.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
The same, right, right, it's all numbers.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Which I love.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
I built our spreadsheets so I could scale to whatever
I have to scale and plan my bakes and I
kind of love that planning part.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
That's pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Now, your pizza dough, I know you have several different types,
is it?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
How does it relate to sour versus commercial yeast? Do
you do any commercial yeast pizza?
Speaker 3 (29:04):
Yes, you do, absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
So one of the things about Ratta is that from
day one, I made that commitment to change. Right, what
we're doing is the same, but how we're doing it
is different. It's one of the ways that we've been
able to keep our team engaged is we embrace change.
What we're trying to produce is always exactly the same,
(29:31):
but how we produce it is always going to change.
So we're always tinkering with our.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Or dough.
Speaker 4 (29:39):
Whether it's a different flower or a different hydration or
a different dough temperature or a different starter feeding regimen,
we're always changing it in a way to keep the
team engaged, because when they're learning, they are engaged, and
when they're engaged, they work really really hard. There have
(30:00):
been times at Rotso where we've been completely sour dough
no commercial yeast. There have been times where we add
a small percentage of east in combination with the sour dough.
We've for about two years we did side by side
(30:21):
batches because our mixer, our mixer at the restaurant was
so small that we would have to do four or
five six batches a day of dough. So it gave
us four or five six opportunities to try something new,
and if one didn't work out, no big deal, We'll
just throw it out and move on. But it gave
(30:42):
us that opportunity to try something new, and I completely
embraced it. So we would do side by side batches
of a naturally eleven dough versus a naturally eleven dough
with just a minuscule amount of commercial yeast. We're talking
five hundredths of a percent of yeast, not even a
(31:04):
tenth of a percent. And so it commercial YaST is
a beautiful thing.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
It provides a gas production.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
It's bred in a lab to be a good gas producer,
and that makes your pizza a little bit lighter, arier, crispier,
and lighter. At the same time, I look at pizza
dough very similar to baguett do because they're they're very
similar products. And I've done side by side baguettes with
(31:43):
naturally leven versus starter, but also with that tiny bit
of commercial yeast, and I always like the one with
commercial yeast more because it's easier to chew through.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
The texture is.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
Better, it's lighter, it's arier, and the crust is thinner
and more eggshell like, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
How about the amount of oil you incorporate into pizza dough?
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Does that matter? It depends.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
I personally use zero oil in my in my dough.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
WHOA, yes, well, okay, don't tell me you know you
don't you use sugar?
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Right?
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Oh my god? Are you serious? Is that a serious question?
Speaker 2 (32:28):
As?
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Oh no, yeah, no sugar?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Never are you serious?
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Never? Dude.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
Flour is starch, and starch is very complex sugar, right,
So why would I add sugar to something that aladi
is sugar. I'm just gonna break down those complex sugars
into simple sugars. That's why one of the many reasons
why I auto lease, because auto lease, which is a
(32:57):
resting period where you're just mixing the flour and water together.
But what happens is the enzymes that are naturally present
in the grain, activate and start converting the starch into
simple sugars.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Okay, don't you think that most commercial pizza eas around
put sugar in their doll.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
I think many do.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
Because sugar fundamentally tastes delicious to humans. So a dough
that is a little bit more sweet people might like.
It's the same thing with salt. My salt content for
all of my breads, all of my pizza for the
rest of my life, will be two percent never more.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Got it? All right, I'm learning a lot of new
stuff today. I'm gonna have to put this into action.
Speaker 4 (33:53):
Just put it into action slowly, one thing at a time,
because if you change too many variables at once, you'll
never know what worked and what didn't work.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
No, I'm going to give that a shot.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Now.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
There seems to be a craze in America.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I'm baking pizza at home. Tom Gosney, right, well known
pizza maker. Do you happen to know him personally?
Speaker 3 (34:15):
I do. I had lunch with him last week?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
No way?
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, so he is like the guy right, and he
started the craze with the rock box. Yes, it's a
pizza oven that I have that in twenty minutes, goes
up to nine hundred degrees, allows me to cook a
pizza in my backyard ninety seconds.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
And now other people are kind of copying it.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
And there are some great ovens out there, right, So
anyone could have the equipment for a recentable price and
make a good pizza.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
Yes, yeah, Typically the more you spend on the oven,
the higher the quality is going to be, but not always.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
The rock Box is great. Nie has some great products.
Speaker 4 (35:02):
Their higher end oven is one of my favorites. It's
the Uni Karu sixteen. I love that oven, bake. I
bake on it all the time. Gosney has the Dome,
which is probably the most beautiful home oven I've ever
seen in my life. I'm waiting on my mind to
(35:26):
be shipped. I can't wait to bake in that one,
but I love it. There's so many of these high
temperature ovens available for the average person.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
But don't get me wrong.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
You don't need a high temperature oven to bake a
great pizza.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
You can do that in your home oven.
Speaker 4 (35:47):
So if you're thinking about getting one of those high
temperature ovens, don't think that automatically you're gonna make fantastic pizza.
There's so many other elements to the process, and you
should start with the oven that that's already been paid for.
You already got one in your kitchen, so start on that.
(36:07):
Figure out if you really like making pizza, and then
if you're like I really want to try Neapolitan style pizza,
then buy a high temp oven.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Before I got my rock box, I would do it
on the web of barbecue by toasting one side of
the dough and then flipping it, and.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
I could say it came out pretty good.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Yeah, that's a good move.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
When you're cooking at nine hundred degrees, does it matter
if it's gas or wood that's creating the heat.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
Okay, so first of all, we're not cooking at nine
hundred degrees, and pretty much no one's really cooking at
nine hundred degrees because at nine hundred degrees, food burns.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
So that that whole temperature thing has to be nine
hundred degrees.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
That's kind of nonsense, right when there's a fire in
a wood fired oven. Yes, there are areas of the
oven that are nine hundred degrees, but that's not where
you put your food. It'll burn immediately at those temperatures
wood versus gas. In my opinion, it doesn't matter for beginners.
(37:18):
I always I always recommend using a stable fuel source
like gas or electricity, because you're gonna get a constant
and even flow of bt us.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Right he.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
Wood is pretty natural and dynamic, and every single piece
of wood is different, every batch.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
Of wood is different.
Speaker 4 (37:45):
Every time you throw a piece of wood into the oven,
it's going to increase the temperature and then slowly decrease.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
It's it's it's very challenging. It's one of the reasons
that I love it. Again.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
I never thought I'd have to study the properties of wood,
but in order to create a consistent product, I really
had to understand what makes would burn and how to properly,
properly maintain a manage of fire. So the size of
(38:21):
the piece is really important. The species is less important.
The moisture content is extraordinarily important.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
But it's a lot that's too much for me. I
think I like a lot. I think I like lighting
the gas of it.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
Yeah, Oh, it's it's so much easier.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
Yeah, but there is something dramatic about it with because
especially for the fermentation of your of your dough, right, Yeah,
is this living, moving, constantly in motion thing, and you
have to get it to line up with your oven
just at the right moment. And when you're baking with fire,
(39:03):
you have to nurture that it's in constant motion.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
So it's these two different moving.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
Targets that you have to get to line up at
just the right moment when you put that pizza into
the oven. Your fire has to be just right and
your dough has to be just right. It's this dance
that it keeps me going. Man, It keeps me engaged
in the process because it's so.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Natural, it's so it's ever changing, and I love it. Man.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
We made a video when it snowed.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
The context you're giving me makes me think the video
is even funnier. We made a pizza oven out of
an igloo, but the way.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
We shot it made it look real.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
And I actually cooked the pizza in the rock box
and then put it on a slate inside the iglo
when we had a fire going in the back. And
people will come into my market asking me for the pizza. Though,
because it was supposed to snow the next week and
they wanted to try building this igloo oven, I said
I had to tell them, guys, it's not real.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
That's hilarious. Is that on Instagram?
Speaker 2 (40:13):
It's on my Instagram?
Speaker 3 (40:14):
I got to I gotta look back for that.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Listen. I would love to come out to your restaurant.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
I've heard so much about you from so many people,
and it truly is an honor. And I want to
say again that the book is amazing. You have QR
codes in there that we could scan and actually watch
the videos.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Which is just brilliant. As you're reading.
Speaker 4 (40:36):
It's so necessary because I've been doing this kind of
flying blind for my entire professional career.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
I never worked at a bakery.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
I didn't I didn't take classes or lessons or anything
like that and have a mentor. Yeah, I've been doing
it by reading books. And a book only gives you
so much. There's only so much that the words can
take tell you, and and still pictures can tell you.
By having that video, you can see what that technique
(41:08):
means in action.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Well, you're an inspiration to me because I'm going to
keep going down this path.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
Do it, baby, do it.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
And I would love to stay in touch and wish
you all the best, and thank you so much for
doing this.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
Thank you for having me. First of all, I can't
believe we're done. I have so many questions for you.
Speaker 4 (41:28):
I want to hear about your operation, how I can help,
how we can like optimize your schedule.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
And you know, well seriously.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
That'll be a part too, man, that'll be a part two.
I will take the drive out.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
I would love to take the drive out and come
down and meet you in person. You should make that happen,
all right, man, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
All right, dude, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
All right, take care, Thank you Dan for being the
first guest on Bread for the People. I came out
of my conversation with Dan really energized and inspired. Dan's
advice goes beyond bread. It's universal in a way.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Try new things, experiment with tiny details.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Over and over and over again, with the tools, the techniques,
and the ingredients. This guy buys a different tomato every
time he goes to the supermarket, and he does a
blind taste test.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
If you want to learn more.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
About his tomato evaluation system or how he formulated what
The New York Times called the best pizza New Jersey,
you can buy his book, The Joy of Pizza, available
at the joyfpizzabook dot com or anywhere you buy books.
This episode was produced by Brandon L. Kaplan and edited
by Brock Higley. If you're a breadmaker with a story
(42:36):
worth telling, you can reach us at bread for the
People pod at gmail dot com.
This is Bread for the People, and my name is
Jim Curpico. We're dropping this episode on Labor Day and
we're about nineteen episodes into the Bread for the People
podcast series since it debuted, and I thought it might
be a good time to revisit and go all the
way back to our very first episode in case some
(00:20):
of you missed it, I had an amazing guest named
Dan Richer, who is the chef and owner of Raza.
Raza is known throughout the country as one of the
best pizza restaurants in the United States. Dan Richer is
the author of the pizza making book Joy of Pizza.
It's my favorite book on pizza ever written. The book
has become a New York Times bestseller. Again, I wanted
(00:43):
to revisit this one. It was a very special episode
to me. Big thanks to Dan for agreeing to be
the first guest ever on Bread for the People. I
hope you listened to this on the beach or by
the pool. Let me know what you think of it.
Enjoy this episode of Bread for the People. My name
is Jim Curpico and this should I start with my name?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
What should I start with?
Speaker 3 (01:03):
This is Bread for the People.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Do you like it like this Welcome to bread, or
do you like it like this Welcome Ready, Welcome to
bread for the people mine?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Is there a script?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I have to say, this book, The Joy of Pizza
is just so amazing on so many levels. And you know,
before I knew of you from Peter Reinhardt, I knew
about this book and wanted this book for Christmas. And
I've read the book, but I think it's going to
take me years to really digest everything that's in it.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
There's a lot, There's a lot, Yeah, there's a lot.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Yeah, because pizza is this.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
Such a simple food to understand, but to really get
good at producing it, it takes.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
A lot of practice and a lot of thought.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
And this the book was, you know, the first you know,
eighteen nineteen years of my pizza making experience, everything I learned,
everything I learned put into one one book.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I mean it's obvious.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I know you had someone, Katie Parla, helped you out
with this, Yes, you must have. You both must have
put a lot of thought and time into the structure
of the book. To me, it's a book for home bakers,
for home pizza makers as well as professionals and That's
that's the part. Like for me, some of it's a
(02:32):
little over my head in a good way, because that's
that's what I want to learn exactly.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
It's going to push you to manage Doe temperatures and
really think about your product because it doesn't have to
be just applied to pizza. Right, the skills and the
methods are applicable to anything you choose to produce.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Right with the whole rubric where.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
It's an evaluation system, it's really a way to identify
what you're trying to create and then you figure out
through practice and science, how to how to produce those characteristics.
So it can be applied to a grilled cheese sandwich.
If you really love grilled cheese sandwiches and there's certain
(03:18):
characteristics that you're looking for in your ultimate grilled cheese,
then you know, at least name those characteristics and then
it gives you a roadmap for producing your next grilled cheese.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
You know, for me, it's been trial and error and
just barely enough science to get through this because also.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
I have limited tools.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
You know, I'm still we're thinking about moving into a
bigger place to produce more and I'm to be honest
with you. I'm a little afraid because I have my
ways that I've figured out for me through trial and
error less science. I probably luckily fell into science that
I don't even realize.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
I'm the same way.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
I'm not a scientist at all, but I have a
strong desire for knowledge. And if somebody tells me you
should use this technique or you should do it this way,
I don't blindly accept that as fact. I want to
know why, Like why do I need to auto lease
(04:26):
my dough? Why do I have to wait that extra
twenty minutes to an hour? And once you learn about it,
once you read enough books about it and do enough experiments,
you realize, oh, yes, it's important.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
That technique makes sense to me. I need to employ
that always.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
It is auto leasing really important because I don't do it. Okay,
I've experimented with it, but somehow, again, it could be
just pure luck. Given a good bulk rise, I bake
two different ways. One is I and this is I'm
(05:06):
talking about sour though. I do an extended bulk ferment
a minimum of six hours, and then I do a
refrigerated bulk ferment for anywhere between twelve and twenty four
hours and then I shape and I bake.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
That works for me?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
It does?
Speaker 3 (05:24):
That works?
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Yeah, And I don't know any bread baker that tells you,
any bread baker that tells you know you're wrong or
that that's not right that doesn't work. Then, I mean
it works. Anything can work. But can it always be better? Probably?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Probably?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
And that's why sometimes I feel like a little bit
of a fraud, to be honest with.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
You, So do I We all do, okay, but.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
You're not because you're making You're making product and it's
selling and people are enjoying it and they came coming back.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
That is true, and that sometimes I just want to why, because.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
They can feel the love that you're putting into it.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
I think that is part of it. I mean, we
are putting a lot into it, and we share a
lot of what we're putting into it.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
And that part of it too, which crosses into the
marketing side of things. I am very interested in. I
like making people laugh, and I like using this bread
company as a vehicle to make people laugh and get
my creativity out, you know. Having the background that I
have in television was and I still work in television,
(06:36):
but it's painfully slow, and you don't always get the
opportunities to create. You're constantly waiting, could be six months
to two years to find out whether or not this
project is going to go or not. And I love
making content around bread on a daily basis. Yeah, and
(06:56):
then I and then I have to to get over
this fraud thing.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
I really have to learn earn it. So I am
really learning how to make breath.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Yeah, me too, I'm still learning, man, but a lot
of fears.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
We're looking at a possible location to move to scale
up to get bigger ovens, more than one oven, And
I was in the space the other day and it
was cold, and I'm like, what's gonna happen? Like this
could throw everything off from me because I've been baking
in the same place. I've been rising my bread in
(07:29):
the same bucket for so long. If the temperature drastically changes,
what the hell am I going to do?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
You're gonna figure it out.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
And it's scary at the beginning because there's so much
that is unknown, but you're gonna figure it out. And
that's where practice and repetition come in, and honestly, a
lot of failure. You know that first week of baking
in that new space. The bread's gonna come out completely different.
(07:58):
You're gonna not be happy with it. But then you're
going to realize, oh, the room is a little cold,
my refrigeration is a little bit colder than the one
that I was using. You're going to figure those things out.
And that's one of the things that I love about
pizza and bread making is you have to It's a
full sensory experience. You have to be aware of all
(08:20):
of your senses smell, taste, touch, how it feels.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
You have to feel the room and all of.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
The external factors that are playing into how the dough
is behaving.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
And you're going to figure it out.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Humans are adaptable, Okay, I'm trusting you.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yeah, trust yourself, trust myself, and if it all goes bad.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
If it all goes bad, just call me and I'll
help you figure out which variables do you're not managing.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
I'm going to take you up on that, because I'm
sure it's going to go bad. So I read in
your bio that you took a trip to Italy, but
it didn't go into the details of how long you
were there and what you did. That actually is something
that I did with my family. It was it was
a pleasure vacation. But we took cooking classes in Florence
(09:12):
and it really piqued our interest and started our Sunday
ritual of making pasta together, which led to where we
are now.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
So what was your journey in Italy?
Speaker 4 (09:22):
Like so, I just I was looking for an adventure
for in that first trip, I just graduated college. I
didn't know what I wanted to do for the rest
of my life. I was working in a restaurant as
a manager throughout college. My cousin was studying architecture in Rome,
and on a whim, I booked a flight for two
(09:43):
weeks and traveled top to bottom, a new city each
each day. And I fell in love with with.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Real Italian food.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
And we have a lot of Italian restaurants here in
New Jersey that I'd been going going to all my
all my life. But the food was so different, and
the food was so different from place to place.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
You know. The food in.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Bologna was completely different than the food in Salerno, and
I just thought that was extraordinary. And it was it
was the pasta that really got me excited. I don't
think I ever tasted fresh pasta or yoki. That wasn't
like a like a lead pellet in your in your stomach.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
You know.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
It was light and airy and tomato sauce that was
that had a balance of sweetness and acidity. But it
wasn't that, you know, that deep, long cooked, super rich
and acidic tomato sauce that that I grew up eating
in New Jersey. It was light, it was fresh, it
(10:53):
was it was subtle and elegant, and I wanted to
know why.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
So then I started. I started cooking immediately.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
And since that first trip, I've been to Italy well
over thirty times. Wow, And I still feel like I'm
just scratching the surface of that country, that little tiny country.
There's so much to discover there.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Now, the tomatoes that you refer to, are they called
san Marciano?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
How do you pronounce it?
Speaker 3 (11:26):
San Martano?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
San Martano? Is that the tomato you're referring to?
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Absolutely not?
Speaker 4 (11:33):
No, okay, no, no, yeah, I don't subscribe to the
whole You have to use San Martano tomatoes and double
zero flour. Those our marketing techniques that are employed by
those companies. They've done a great job. Because everybody thinks
you have to use San Marzano tomatoes. But I believe
(11:56):
that you should do double blind taste tests of all
the different tomatoes that you could realistically purchase. So I
go to the supermarket, and every time I'm at the supermarket,
I scan the tomato aisle. I look for a new
brand or something interesting. I bring it home, I taste
it up against two or three other tomatoes in a
(12:19):
blind manner. You know, I'm not looking at the labels.
I don't care where it comes from. I don't care
how beautifully designed the label is or how authentic it is.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I'm using my taste buds.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
And in the book, we have a tomato evaluation system
where it teaches you how what to look for in
a tomato. It's sweetness, acidity, texture, the amount of seeds
and skins, and a couple of other characteristics. So if
you're tasting with this with these characteristics in mind, there's
(12:52):
always there's usually a clear winner, and that's the tomato
that you should use, not one from a mythical place
called San Martano.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
You know San Marzano's.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
That area is a very small region, and there's worldwide
demand for this product. They can't possibly produce high quality
tomatoes for worldwide demand out of a very small area.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
It's just not possible.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
So let's go back. So you come home from Italy
and you're all.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Fired up, fired up. First thing I did was make
a batch of tomato sauce for what reason?
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Just for yourself?
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Or were you starting to think about business ideas because
at this point you were still an employee somewhere or
were you between jobs.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Yeah, yeah, no, I was an employee at a restaurant.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
But it was so during that time, my mom was
very sick with cancer, and it was those plates of
food and those batches of tomato sauce that brought my
friends and family together for me to help me because
(14:00):
I needed people. I needed people around, I needed the support.
And it wasn't until many years later and a ton
of therapy that I realized that that was my conduit.
That was my way of saying, I need people, I
need support, and it worked. You know, food brings people together,
(14:20):
and I'll never I'll never forget that time and the
thousands of other times that it brought people together when
I needed them.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Yeah. It's also I think nostalgic in a way because
I've been thinking about how did I make this pivot
and why? And I do think it has something to
do with my father's love of food. It wasn't a baker,
it wasn't a professional cook.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
He loved to eat, he loved to cook.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
But I think there is some kind of connection to
the types of things I bake and.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
What he would have loved. Definitely, there's definitely something.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
There without it's a way to connect.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
And so my mom was a calligrapher, like she practiced
her handwriting all day every day.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
That was her thing.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
So and it was her work ethic and the repetition
that I saw her as a do as a kid.
That stuck with me, and I do the same thing.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
It's I'm doing one thing.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
I'm constantly on repeat and paying attention to my last
batch and making subtle corrections going forward and just keep
at it and keep going. And I'm able to channel
her through my repetition and it it really helped my
(15:44):
grief and losing her.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I'm going to ask you the same question I get
asked a lot.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Does that bore you? Does it bore you doing that
same thing every day? Repetition? Yeah, you're tweaking it. How
do you how do you feel about that.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
I am not bored in the least bit. So I
also started by making tomato, making pasta. That was my
first like real thing that I wanted to understand and nail,
and that I did get bored of because at the
end of it, like, yeah, I have great pasta, do
I can make all these fancy little shapes and they're gorgeous,
(16:23):
they're delicious.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
But I got bored of that.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
It wasn't until I started making pizza and baking bread
that it seems like it's this endless journey of repetition
because there is so much to learn. There's so much
to learn, whether it's you know, changing your your dough
temperature or you're starting starter feeding regimen, or changing flowers.
(16:53):
If I change my flower, it'll take me six months
of trials to really nail it and to make the
decision whether I want to move forward with this new flower.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
My base flower I haven't changed since I started. I
think I got lucky with I think you use I
think because I've heard that you use King Author bread
flour as part of your mix.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Is that true?
Speaker 4 (17:21):
That's a good one. I don't use their bread flour. Okay, Yeah,
I use their all purpose flour, which is a winter wheat,
which I like a little bit better for artisan breads
because it's higher protein quality, lower protein but higher protein
quality than the bread flour. The bread fowler is great,
(17:42):
though it's awesome. Both of those products are fantastic to me.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Right, the higher the protein, the better chance for crumb. So,
for instance, I was originally making my whole wheat bread
with a mix of whole wheat flour probably forty to
fifty and bread flour and AP flour. I switched, I
took away the AP and I went to all bread,
(18:09):
and I found I got a fluffier are or crumb,
And it was a I don't know if it was
a cheat or what it was.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
Maybe you might have also changed something else in the process.
You might have also just been so used to handling
that dough that you got better at it over time.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Right, that's for sure. Forty uh.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
A wheat flour is going to lead to a denser
crumb no matter what, because it's got all that the
sharp particles of brand in it that kind of cut
through the gluten, making the crumb a little bit tighter
and a little bit more dense. But you know you
can get a beautiful open crumb with with a lower
(18:53):
protein flour.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Can you get how about hundred percent whole week? I
know we're getting into so for people who don't make bread,
this it might be, but we'll get back to the
journey in a minute. But with with one pure whole week,
can you get open crumb?
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Uh? You'll probably you'll get much less open crumb.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
Yeah, I wouldn't say definitively you cannot, but it's definitely
going to be tighter. But you can make great products
with one hundred percent whole week. I was just at
my friend Pam Young did a residency. She's a chef
at Blue Hillstone at Stone Barns, and she was making
pizza for a few weeks there this summer, and she
(19:34):
was doing one hundred percent whole week pizza. And it
it was crispy, it was light, it was airy, and it.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Was one hundred percent whole week. Wow.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
All right.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
I don't recommend it personally because I don't want to
eat that on a daily basis. It's not my platonic
ideal of bread or pizza. But if it's all you've got,
of course, you can make something fantastic.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Stick out of it.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah, absolutely all right.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
So back to your professional journey. When did you make
your move to become an entrepreneur and start your own place.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
I bought a failing restaurant in two thousand and six.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
Okay, I maxed out three credit cards, borrowed small sums
of money from a bunch of people, and bought this
restaurant that was pre existing. It was doing poorly, but
it happened to have two wood fire ovens, and.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Yeah, and that was that was one of the biggest
successes of my life.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
It's just at twenty six year old, I don't come
from money, and I got the deal done and I
owned a restaurant at twenty six. It was really a
transitional moment in my life. And once I had the
space and I had the you know, I had a
(20:57):
twenty year commercial lease. I had to get up out
of out of bed every day and make sure that
my team could get paid and that that rant could
get paid.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
That sounds like an extraordinary long lease.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
That's not.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Oh yeah, So how how did you fall into this place?
And was was the location grade? I know you said
the ovens were really attractive to you, that you must
have some burning passion, like this is the place.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Yeah, you know, I knew the previous owners and they
told me, go come work for us for two or
three years and then we'll sell it to you.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
And that's what happened. It was. It was pretty crazy
that that it actually happened.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Wow. Yeah, And how long did it take for you
to realize this was working?
Speaker 4 (21:45):
About six months in. It was very busy, really yeah,
it was.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
It was. It was fast, and then five years later
I'm like.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
Yeah, the restaurant was so busy with lines out the door,
and it was more of a just trying to keep
up with the pace. I wasn't able to be creative.
The place was kind of running itself at that point,
(22:18):
and I was bored. So I started Ratta in twenty
twelve and I just parked myself there.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
And for the first four years it was very, very slow,
and so I.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Was expecting maybe six months of pain and not being busy,
but it took it took four and a half years
to really get enough people in the door, to get
everyone paid and to take any money from the business.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
So what do you think happened after four and a
half years? Was it word of mouth? Was there one
specific award or.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
In a newspaper.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
The first thing that I did is I sold the
first restaurant, the successful one, because I believed in Ratza.
I believed in Jersey City. I knew what we were
doing was our food was better than the first restaurant.
I knew it didn't. It wasn't realizing its full potential.
And it's because I was My time was divided and
(23:27):
I couldn't put the effort into the to Ratza that
I think it needed. So six months after I sold
the restaurant, it was busy. We got a New York
Times review. The review was so good that we've been
busy pretty much every day since then.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Now, ultimately, is it you, personally or the restaurant that
was named best pizza in North America?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
The restaurant, the restaurant.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Yeah, And was that a shock to you?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
I quite a shock. Yeah?
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Did you know you were even in consideration? Like, how
does something like that happen?
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Ah? I don't know, I have no idea. Yeah, I
don't know.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
All those lists are are they're kind of nonsense, but
they help. Yeah, yeah, they help in their special And
I flew to flew to Naples and they had this
giant ceremony in a very old hall, kind of like
Carnegie Hall, and I'm up on stage accepting this award.
(24:37):
It was in front of all the I mean, the
Italians went they love this stuff, they love this this
particular list, and.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
It was it was a special moment.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
But it's not the reason why I do it or
you know, I don't do it for the praise. I
don't do it for any of those reasons. They're they're nice,
like they're a nice pat on the back.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
But yeah, but it helped with whatever marketing you have
to do, and it's that could be worse things than
being named best pizza in North America.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's an honor for sure.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Do you have someone that a right hand person that
you rely on, because I'm noticing for me, you know,
in my case, my wife is that person. There's just
so many logistics and so many other things that go
into making this business work that have nothing to do
(25:28):
with the actual baking. And I can only imagine with
what you have going on. And you have a family,
a young family. I believe you know you there must
be people in your life that help you do this.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
Oh yeah, yeah, we have a huge team of people
at the restaurant at this point, at the beginning, it
was I felt very alone, and I was alone day one.
That's my sign of success, Like I feel successful when
my team, when the culture of the restaurant is thriving,
(26:03):
when the people are happy, when one of my one
of my teammates buys a house or has a baby,
like that's what That's how I measure success. The more
of those moments that happen. You know, somebody can buy
a house by making pizza at Ratza. That's amazing. But yeah,
(26:28):
you got to you gotta start building and nurturing. Just
like you nurture your your sourdough starter, you have to
nurture your team.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
And that's the that's the the.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
Big difference between successful food businesses and uh and not
did did all.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Of these people have an interest in food or study
baking or cooking? Or do you think it's possible to
take someone who just wants to be part of a
team and a team player and teach them from scratch.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Those are my favorite people to work with, people who
just really want to be a part of the team
and they have a slight interest in it. We had
a kid maybe five years ago, didn't have the best
time in college. He just wanted a job as anything,
(27:20):
any part of the business. He just needed a job.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
So we started him. We didn't know if he was
going to be the right.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
Fit for the front of the house, back of the house,
so we gave him a few days in the dishwasher
and a few days as a server assistant, a bus boy,
and he grew with us over the past five years.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
He is now.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
Running our dough program for all of our bread making
and all of our pizza making.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
At the restaurant. He studied this.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
Yeah, his name's Jonah. That was just with him ten
minutes ago talking about dough. He's learned the science, he's
done the work, and now he's you. He understands it
very very well. And those are my favorite type of
people who to work with.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I mean, that's amazing. I think it's also amazing that
you have a dough program.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Oh you have to.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
You should see our binders and our spreadsheets.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
It's all you know.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
Because bread making is formulaic, right, So whether you make
whether you make one loaf of bread or ten thousand
loaves of bread, it's pretty much.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
The same, right, right, it's all numbers.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Which I love.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
I built our spreadsheets so I could scale to whatever
I have to scale and plan my bakes and I
kind of love that planning part.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
That's pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Now, your pizza dough, I know you have several different types,
is it?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
How does it relate to sour versus commercial yeast? Do
you do any commercial yeast pizza?
Speaker 3 (29:04):
Yes, you do, absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
So one of the things about Ratta is that from
day one, I made that commitment to change. Right, what
we're doing is the same, but how we're doing it
is different. It's one of the ways that we've been
able to keep our team engaged is we embrace change.
What we're trying to produce is always exactly the same,
(29:31):
but how we produce it is always going to change.
So we're always tinkering with our.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Or dough.
Speaker 4 (29:39):
Whether it's a different flower or a different hydration or
a different dough temperature or a different starter feeding regimen,
we're always changing it in a way to keep the
team engaged, because when they're learning, they are engaged, and
when they're engaged, they work really really hard. There have
(30:00):
been times at Rotso where we've been completely sour dough
no commercial yeast. There have been times where we add
a small percentage of east in combination with the sour dough.
We've for about two years we did side by side
(30:21):
batches because our mixer, our mixer at the restaurant was
so small that we would have to do four or
five six batches a day of dough. So it gave
us four or five six opportunities to try something new,
and if one didn't work out, no big deal, We'll
just throw it out and move on. But it gave
(30:42):
us that opportunity to try something new, and I completely
embraced it. So we would do side by side batches
of a naturally eleven dough versus a naturally eleven dough
with just a minuscule amount of commercial yeast. We're talking
five hundredths of a percent of yeast, not even a
(31:04):
tenth of a percent. And so it commercial YaST is
a beautiful thing.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
It provides a gas production.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
It's bred in a lab to be a good gas producer,
and that makes your pizza a little bit lighter, arier, crispier,
and lighter. At the same time, I look at pizza
dough very similar to baguett do because they're they're very
similar products. And I've done side by side baguettes with
(31:43):
naturally leven versus starter, but also with that tiny bit
of commercial yeast, and I always like the one with
commercial yeast more because it's easier to chew through.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
The texture is.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
Better, it's lighter, it's arier, and the crust is thinner
and more eggshell like, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
How about the amount of oil you incorporate into pizza dough?
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Does that matter? It depends.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
I personally use zero oil in my in my dough.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
WHOA, yes, well, okay, don't tell me you know you
don't you use sugar?
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Right?
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Oh my god? Are you serious? Is that a serious question?
Speaker 2 (32:28):
As?
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Oh no, yeah, no sugar?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Never are you serious?
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Never? Dude.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
Flour is starch, and starch is very complex sugar, right,
So why would I add sugar to something that aladi
is sugar. I'm just gonna break down those complex sugars
into simple sugars. That's why one of the many reasons
why I auto lease, because auto lease, which is a
(32:57):
resting period where you're just mixing the flour and water together.
But what happens is the enzymes that are naturally present
in the grain, activate and start converting the starch into
simple sugars.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Okay, don't you think that most commercial pizza eas around
put sugar in their doll.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
I think many do.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
Because sugar fundamentally tastes delicious to humans. So a dough
that is a little bit more sweet people might like.
It's the same thing with salt. My salt content for
all of my breads, all of my pizza for the
rest of my life, will be two percent never more.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Got it? All right, I'm learning a lot of new
stuff today. I'm gonna have to put this into action.
Speaker 4 (33:53):
Just put it into action slowly, one thing at a time,
because if you change too many variables at once, you'll
never know what worked and what didn't work.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
No, I'm going to give that a shot.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Now.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
There seems to be a craze in America.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I'm baking pizza at home. Tom Gosney, right, well known
pizza maker. Do you happen to know him personally?
Speaker 3 (34:15):
I do. I had lunch with him last week?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
No way?
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, so he is like the guy right, and he
started the craze with the rock box. Yes, it's a
pizza oven that I have that in twenty minutes, goes
up to nine hundred degrees, allows me to cook a
pizza in my backyard ninety seconds.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
And now other people are kind of copying it.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
And there are some great ovens out there, right, So
anyone could have the equipment for a recentable price and
make a good pizza.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
Yes, yeah, Typically the more you spend on the oven,
the higher the quality is going to be, but not always.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
The rock Box is great. Nie has some great products.
Speaker 4 (35:02):
Their higher end oven is one of my favorites. It's
the Uni Karu sixteen. I love that oven, bake. I
bake on it all the time. Gosney has the Dome,
which is probably the most beautiful home oven I've ever
seen in my life. I'm waiting on my mind to
(35:26):
be shipped. I can't wait to bake in that one,
but I love it. There's so many of these high
temperature ovens available for the average person.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
But don't get me wrong.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
You don't need a high temperature oven to bake a
great pizza.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
You can do that in your home oven.
Speaker 4 (35:47):
So if you're thinking about getting one of those high
temperature ovens, don't think that automatically you're gonna make fantastic pizza.
There's so many other elements to the process, and you
should start with the oven that that's already been paid for.
You already got one in your kitchen, so start on that.
(36:07):
Figure out if you really like making pizza, and then
if you're like I really want to try Neapolitan style pizza,
then buy a high temp oven.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Before I got my rock box, I would do it
on the web of barbecue by toasting one side of
the dough and then flipping it, and.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
I could say it came out pretty good.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Yeah, that's a good move.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
When you're cooking at nine hundred degrees, does it matter
if it's gas or wood that's creating the heat.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
Okay, so first of all, we're not cooking at nine
hundred degrees, and pretty much no one's really cooking at
nine hundred degrees because at nine hundred degrees, food burns.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
So that that whole temperature thing has to be nine
hundred degrees.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
That's kind of nonsense, right when there's a fire in
a wood fired oven. Yes, there are areas of the
oven that are nine hundred degrees, but that's not where
you put your food. It'll burn immediately at those temperatures
wood versus gas. In my opinion, it doesn't matter for beginners.
(37:18):
I always I always recommend using a stable fuel source
like gas or electricity, because you're gonna get a constant
and even flow of bt us.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Right he.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
Wood is pretty natural and dynamic, and every single piece
of wood is different, every batch.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
Of wood is different.
Speaker 4 (37:45):
Every time you throw a piece of wood into the oven,
it's going to increase the temperature and then slowly decrease.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
It's it's it's very challenging. It's one of the reasons
that I love it. Again.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
I never thought I'd have to study the properties of wood,
but in order to create a consistent product, I really
had to understand what makes would burn and how to properly,
properly maintain a manage of fire. So the size of
(38:21):
the piece is really important. The species is less important.
The moisture content is extraordinarily important.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
But it's a lot that's too much for me. I
think I like a lot. I think I like lighting
the gas of it.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
Yeah, Oh, it's it's so much easier.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
Yeah, but there is something dramatic about it with because
especially for the fermentation of your of your dough, right, Yeah,
is this living, moving, constantly in motion thing, and you
have to get it to line up with your oven
just at the right moment. And when you're baking with fire,
(39:03):
you have to nurture that it's in constant motion.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
So it's these two different moving.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
Targets that you have to get to line up at
just the right moment when you put that pizza into
the oven. Your fire has to be just right and
your dough has to be just right. It's this dance
that it keeps me going. Man, It keeps me engaged
in the process because it's so.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Natural, it's so it's ever changing, and I love it. Man.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
We made a video when it snowed.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
The context you're giving me makes me think the video
is even funnier. We made a pizza oven out of
an igloo, but the way.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
We shot it made it look real.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
And I actually cooked the pizza in the rock box
and then put it on a slate inside the iglo
when we had a fire going in the back. And
people will come into my market asking me for the pizza. Though,
because it was supposed to snow the next week and
they wanted to try building this igloo oven, I said
I had to tell them, guys, it's not real.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
That's hilarious. Is that on Instagram?
Speaker 2 (40:13):
It's on my Instagram?
Speaker 3 (40:14):
I got to I gotta look back for that.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Listen. I would love to come out to your restaurant.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
I've heard so much about you from so many people,
and it truly is an honor. And I want to
say again that the book is amazing. You have QR
codes in there that we could scan and actually watch
the videos.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Which is just brilliant. As you're reading.
Speaker 4 (40:36):
It's so necessary because I've been doing this kind of
flying blind for my entire professional career.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
I never worked at a bakery.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
I didn't I didn't take classes or lessons or anything
like that and have a mentor. Yeah, I've been doing
it by reading books. And a book only gives you
so much. There's only so much that the words can
take tell you, and and still pictures can tell you.
By having that video, you can see what that technique
(41:08):
means in action.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Well, you're an inspiration to me because I'm going to
keep going down this path.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
Do it, baby, do it.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
And I would love to stay in touch and wish
you all the best, and thank you so much for
doing this.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
Thank you for having me. First of all, I can't
believe we're done. I have so many questions for you.
Speaker 4 (41:28):
I want to hear about your operation, how I can help,
how we can like optimize your schedule.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
And you know, well seriously.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
That'll be a part too, man, that'll be a part two.
I will take the drive out.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
I would love to take the drive out and come
down and meet you in person. You should make that happen,
all right, man, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
All right, dude, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
All right, take care, Thank you Dan for being the
first guest on Bread for the People. I came out
of my conversation with Dan really energized and inspired. Dan's
advice goes beyond bread. It's universal in a way.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Try new things, experiment with tiny details.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Over and over and over again, with the tools, the techniques,
and the ingredients. This guy buys a different tomato every
time he goes to the supermarket, and he does a
blind taste test.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
If you want to learn more.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
About his tomato evaluation system or how he formulated what
The New York Times called the best pizza New Jersey,
you can buy his book, The Joy of Pizza, available
at the joyfpizzabook dot com or anywhere you buy books.
This episode was produced by Brandon L. Kaplan and edited
by Brock Higley. If you're a breadmaker with a story
(42:36):
worth telling, you can reach us at bread for the
People pod at gmail dot com.
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