August 14, 2023 • 43 mins
In this episode, Jim Serpico speaks with Daniele Brenci, known as @_BreadCrumb on social media, about his culinary journey from growing up in Rome, working at a traditional Roman cuisine restaurant at 16, to becoming a private chef for celebrities in Malibu. Daniele also shares how he started his bread-making project, Breadcrumb, inspired by a gifted sourdough starter. Discover how Daniele's past and professional experiences influenced his approach to cooking and baking. Listen now!
Follow Jim Serpico on Instagram: @sidehustlebread and @jimserpico
Follow Daniele Brenci on Instagram: @_breadcrumb
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/jim-serpico-bread-for-the-people-sourdough-pizza-life--5704379/support.
Follow Jim Serpico on Instagram: @sidehustlebread and @jimserpico
Follow Daniele Brenci on Instagram: @_breadcrumb
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/jim-serpico-bread-for-the-people-sourdough-pizza-life--5704379/support.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
My name's Jim Serpico. And thisshould I start with my name? What
should I start with? This isbread for the people. Do you like
it like this? Welcome to bread? Or do you like it like this?
Welcome Retty, Welcome to Bread forthe people? Mine? Is there
a script? Today? I hadthe honor of sitting down with Danielle Frenchie.
(00:29):
Danielle is a chef, baker andbreadmaker. He's a US ambassador from
Already forty Pizza ovens. His Instagramaccount Breadcrumb. It's one of the top
breadmaking social media accounts around. Danielli'snew book, Advanced Bread Baking at Home
is available everywhere books are sold.Danielli and I got to talk about his
unique upbringing in Roman, his journey, the difference between Poolish and Viga,
(00:52):
and we learn a little bit aboutbumbaloney and Italian doughnut dusted with sugar.
I hope you enjoyed my conversation withDanielli. So I know you have a
new bread book app cookbook Advanced BreadBaking, which which I'm intrigued about.
But you also you baked bread,pizza, croissants, so many different things.
(01:17):
Yes, So this is what's goingon. I was scrolling through your
Instagram account, of which you havea couple but the Breadcrumb account. Were
you just in Las Vegas for thePizza XBO? I was. I was
with La Las Vegas because I'm aMoretti Furni US chef and ambassador, So
we were there. We had abooth, so much fun. It was
(01:38):
great. So so for people listeningto this podcast, could you explain a
little bit about the Pizza exbo becauseit sounds to me from some of the
people I've been interviewing and talking toa lot of them who are world premiere
chefs were actually there. Yeah.So the Pizza Expo is just like this
this huge a there, uh whereall the pizza All the big you know
(02:01):
pizza h figures in the country andItaly and just outside the US also just
get together and bring their products,bring their you know, new equipment,
new ideas, new recipes, andit's just an opportunity for everyone to just
you know, share, share theirknowledge. And it's been beautiful. So
(02:23):
who attends. Everybody professionals and andjust everybody can. Yeah. Really,
I think I might have to makethat trip next year. Oh. Absolutely,
you've never been I've never been.Oh, it's so much fun.
It's absolutely it's great. So youbring your stove, your oven. Are
people cooking with with wood? Twoinside? How does that work? I
(02:46):
think there was one booth that hadwood burning, but mostly was electric.
So the ovens I represent, thisis an Italian company. They we do
electric ovens. So and we didprovide ovens for other stands also like for
the pizza Champion, because there's achampionship also, so they were using our
(03:06):
open for it. So fully electric. But yeah, so mostly mostly electric
opens. So who's the pizza champion? This guy from from Naples, Karmine.
Okay, he has a pizza shopactually in Miami. I was just
there, really, Yeah, Iwas doing some consulting down there, and
(03:27):
yeah, I just wanted to visit. It was just like a like a
true Neapolitan experience. It was amazing. So from the research I've done,
it looks like you were greatly impactedby your grandmother. M h. I
spending time with her. Yes,I grew up you know, I grew
up in Rome. Spend a lotof time with my grandma. She has
(03:49):
a little place outside of the ofthe city where she build her house.
She has a garden, fruit treesand all of that. And so just
like growing up around all of thoseflavors and all of the you know,
traditions, like really exposed me tolike just building that food memory, that
flavor memory that like today I triedto recreate when I whenever I cook and
I bake, that's amazing. Didshe bake and cook all types of food
(04:14):
or did she like specialize in anarea or she well, she's a great
baker. Like desserts, it's herbig thing. She has hazel lots of
hazel nut trees, so she willmake anything with hazel nut. It's like
she's not just cakes and caramels andall all kinds of things. But she's
a great cook in general. Likethey they're hunters also, there's a lot
(04:38):
of wild animals around where they live. She's a forager, so she will
just use anything that comes in frontof her and she'll make it beautiful.
So with that knowledge, as ayoung person, where did you What was
your first professional experience? So Iwent to culinary school in Rome. I
started working at a restaurant in thecenter of Rome. It was a traditional
(05:00):
Roman cuisine when I was sixteen,so From there, I started, you
know, getting exposed to like professionalrestaurants, which I had no idea what
that life was like it was andand and then you know, started traveling,
moved to London, lived in Londonfor a couple of years, and
then I was brought to Malibu toopen a restaurant. Helps understand cuisine?
(05:25):
How is it different in Rome fromfrom other places in Italy? Well?
Rome, Well, the beauty ofthe cuisine, the Italian cuisine is that
like every region, you know howItalian Italy is divided in regions, right,
so every region has its specialties andand you know, depending on what
(05:46):
what what the what what the landhas to offer, like there will be
like recipes that you can find,you know in Sicily versus Piedmont, right,
and so Roman cuisine, you know, like everywhere you go, it's
like the best wine, the bestcheese, the best salumi, and you
know, the fresh pastas, andeveryone has a different style of making it.
It's it's basically kind of like thesame thing everywhere you go, but
(06:09):
everyone makes it a little different andthey make it their own. So that's
the beauty of Italian cuisine. Verynice. And now you've you've took that
and you got how did you findthe work in California and Malibu? Someone
brought you over from from So Iwas working in London at a Mission and
(06:30):
Star restaurant, and you know,the chef comes up to me one day
and it's like, you know,I got a job offer Malibu to open
this restaurant. Let's go. Youwant to go, Mike? All right,
let's go. We packed and weleft the next day and here I
am nine years later. Almost whatrestaurant was that it was? It was
called Nikita. It's uh, it'sit's right on the ocean next to Nobu,
(06:53):
okay, right in the heart ofMalibu, basically, And how much
time did you spend at that restaurant? I was there for a couple of
years. And while in Malibu,I was introduced to some celebrities and some
and some families out there, andI started working as a private chef for
them. I wanted to step outof the of the restaurant lifestyle for a
(07:15):
little while and just you know,take care of myself for a little bit.
Uh, you know, going fromworking from selves fifteen seventeen hours a
day to like six it's pretty sweet. But life is a personal chef must
be interesting, you must have somegreat stories. Definitely to the stars.
Yeah, so as a personal cheffor for some celebrities in Malibu and uh.
(07:35):
And then after that, I decidedto go back to restaurants after a
couple of years, and so Imoved to Chicago. I was in Chicago
for a couple of years. Whileworking at a restaurant in Chicago, I
injured my lower back again because Iwas working lots of you know, long
hours and all the uh injured mylower back and I couldn't really work for
(07:57):
a few months. Uh. Andin the meantime, I got a job
offer to move to Pittsburgh to bea private chef again. And and so
I really like consider, like,Okay, where's my career going at this
point with this injury, and youknow how I want to you know,
approach the future, And so Idecided to move. It was a great
opportunity. One of the guys thatused to work with me in Malibu was
(08:20):
the one that offered me the job, and so I moved and I stayed
with this family for three years andI started bread Crumb in the meantime.
So how long has that been around. So bread Crumb started four years ago,
about four or five years ago.So somebody somebody gifted me a little
soured was starting and I had neverI had never took care of a start
(08:43):
sour though, like I didn't reallyknow. I mean, I knew what
it was, but I didn't reallyit wasn't my you know, every day,
and and so I was like,okay, let's let's let's see what
this about. Let's make some bread. I made a first loave of bread
at home and it was terrible.It was just like like a stone like
then and and lad you know,like all the everything went wrong, everything
(09:03):
that could go wrong went wrong.But you know, being the professionist I
am, I'm like, okay,I'm going to figure this out. So
I started baking more consistently, youknow, started posting on Instagram everything I
was baking on bread Crumb. Andthen the pandemic hit. Now with the
pandemic, I had so much youknow, I was still working for the
family during the pandemic, but Ihad so much time, you know,
(09:24):
to really dedicate myself to baking.And so and so I started baking more
consistently. I got a book dealand then you know, now advanced bread
baking at home. It's it's outin the world and I'm so excited about
it. So yeah, so soso much happened. And then in the
past three years, so you didn'treally work with the hour though up until
(09:46):
four years ago. Is that?Is that what I'm understanding? Yeah,
basically, yeah, four or fiveyears ago. And then I started,
you know, consistently baking and thentrying to perfect you know, everything I
wanted to perfect, like crossants andyou know, just like different loads and
different recipes. But yeah, it'sit's been, it's been four years consistently.
I grew up in Rome, soyou know, you grow up around
(10:09):
food and bread and pizza. Youknow, it's in my blood. I
feel like it. So but yeah, professionally consistently has been for four years.
I mean, your your work,it's just unbelievably beautiful. Thank you.
I know you're familiar with with bakingand bread and cooking, but you
know, what did you do,what Stepps, did you take to become
(10:31):
so good at it so quickly?So I well, I've always kind of
baked in all the restaurants. Iwill always spend time in the pastry department
and the bakery department, and youknow the I will always like cut out
a little time out of my dayto go learn about it because it's because
it was because I was cooking,so it wasn't what I was doing.
(10:52):
But I've always been passionate about bakingand pastries, pastries specially, I just
love desserts. But yeah, justI think, you know, using like
using great flowers, like trying tosource locally and try to understand, like
really trying to understand how like eachdifferent grain performs when you're when you're baking.
And that's and that's why you knowadvanced bread baking, that's that's where
(11:15):
Evans bread baking was born. Iwanted to like just transmit this, uh,
this passion for for for the qualityof the ingredients and just like have
people understand that that you can makethe same recipe two different days and you
can have two completely different outcomes,like it's not always consistent. So understanding
how how ingredients perform that's what's advancedto me. Now, what what techniques
(11:41):
do you use? Let's talk abouta basic rustic sour though. What's the
process that you go through? There'sthere's many steps or there can be many
steps, can be many steps.I so when I when I'm making it
at home, I auto this myflower one hour at least I try.
(12:03):
I always try to use whole graininto my into my mix. Do Okay,
So let's even back up. Sofor my friends who who hear these
terms come out on some of thesepodcasts and don't know what they mean,
explain to the layman what autolise is. So autolise is when you basically just
mix only the flour and water andlisten in a recipe. Now you can
(12:28):
you can mix all the water,or you can mix an eighty percent of
the water and keep a little biton the side that you're going to add
later for better bluden development. Andyou know you can like app that hydration
as you as you add water.But yeah, it's basically just water and
flower. You just let it sitstart their enzymatic activity, uh, start
(12:48):
building gluben and flavor also, sothat's the main reason it's building gluding and
flavor. Yeah, so that's themain reason for your autolise and it helps.
So yeah, obviously helps like thestrength of the dough as you start
building gluden. So after the autoliesI have my my my levan or my
(13:09):
sour dough at the right point,you know, I usually I feed my
stop sour. Do start it atone hundred percent hitriction, which means equal
parts water flower sour dough, right, So that means it's pretty thin,
right, It's it's thin, yeah, it's it's a liquid sour though,
Like do you keep it in therefrigerator. I keep it in the refrigerator
(13:31):
if I store it. But whenI'm baking, I usually feed it once,
refresh you once, Like I letit go through one cycle of feeding,
and then I use it just tolike keep it acting, right.
I hide my sour though to theautoliest flower. If I'm mixing by hand,
you know, it's it's a it'sa ten minute you know mixing because
(13:52):
like then with folds, you're goingto over time build that guden, right,
that's strength in the dough. Orif I'm using it each and aid
again, it's like eight ten minutes, it's a very short you know mix
because then we go through a longfermentation and during that fermentation we I perform
faults, which you know, developedstrengthened the dough and you know, it's
(14:16):
it makes it easy to work with. So the long fermentation otherwise known as
a bulk proof correct. So afterwe mix after max bolk fermentation, I
usually do you know, I alwayshave an eye grometer in my kitchen that
measures humidity and temperature. Also,yeah, it's in my fridge. It's
like one of those you know,stick on the fridge. It's so it's
(14:37):
so useful. I love it.What exactly are you you're trying to figure
out? So with that, thatindicates the temperature in the humidity in the
room. Right, So obviously,like my kitchen is never going to be
above seventy percent humidity, which iswhich is pretty much the right humidity for
(14:58):
for proof. So what I doI turn my oven into a into a
proving chamber and I talk about itin the book. So basically, you
turn the light on the ovens off. Light on, The light heats up
and brings that temperature up in theoven. You do this like a half
hour forty minutes before you put thebread in the dough, and and you
(15:22):
know you're output seventy five. Youknow you want to you want to be
between I want to be between seventyeighty degrees. Now for humidity. In
what I do in the oven,I just put a cup of hot water
from the tap into the oven.There's like twenty minutes before and that brings
the humidity up. Now, withthat ygrometer in the oven, I'm able
(15:45):
to measure exactly temperature and humidity.And so whenever I'm both proofing both fromenting
my dough, I just keep itin the oven uncovered because it doesn't dry
out. The humidity is just right. And then a forty five minutes fifty
minutes depending on the recipe. Ijust I performed folds. Do you then
(16:06):
do you a called fermentation after that? Yes? I do so. After
the book proof, I usually apprecihapeit because I'm usually working with one kilo
flowers seventy five percent iteration, soI make about like two or three loaves
like that. So I appreciape itand I let it bench rest covered for
about an hour, so both fermentation. I go three and a half four
(16:30):
hours, so not super long.Some people got up to six, you
know, depending on the recipe,but I do three and a half.
Usually three folds. I apprecihape,let it rest for about an hour,
and then shape it. After ashape goes in the basket straight in the
fridge overnight, look up up tosixteen eighteen hours. And then obviously I'm
(16:55):
baking in in a cast iron ahome, so I'm baking one of the
time, sometimes a big twice becauseI have lava rocks also set up in
my in my in my home ovento create steam and all of that.
But if I'm baking in a ina cast iron pin and bake one at
the time, so and it takesabout forty five fifteen minutes, so the
other loave that is in the fridgegets that one hour extended fermentation, and
(17:22):
I always see the difference. It'salways fun to look at the difference just
a one hour. So when I'mbaking at this point, I'm usually baking
for a farmer's market, a multiplefarmer's markets, and I'm not baking one
or two loaves at a time.So right one of the issues I have
is all the space, the amountof time I have as one person trying
(17:52):
to do eighty loaves. Any advicefor me on trying to hit all these
steps because I cut some corners Idon't do because what you're talking about for
two loaves of bread is a lotof work. It's a lot of work.
It's easier to manage, for sure. Yeah, when you talk about
large quantities, maybe you want towe want to make your book fermentation a
(18:15):
little shorter and play like that,because by the time you're done appre shaping
and shaping, you know all ofit that I don't know how much,
how much though you work with ata time, but you know, to
shorter your book fermentation, you're ableto you know, by the time you're
done shaping, to get to theright point of ferdentation what I've been doing.
And again I kind of just figuredthis out. And I don't know
(18:37):
if we're better or for worse.I don't appreciate. I get to called
fermentation step in bolt and then Ishape and put it right in the oven.
That allows me. I don't know, it's just the way I figured
it out to h it actually saysspace. It's really more that because I'm
(19:00):
keeping them in cubes, in rectangularcubes and the refrigerator and I don't have
individual Benaton's in the refrigerator trying toI did try that originally. Then I
had to figure out how to stackthem, and you know, how to
do. It's definitely more practical thatway, for sure. Yeah. I
(19:21):
mean that's the amazing thing about breadthere. I don't know, I don't
know if there's even a right orwrong. It's just all a little different,
you know. Yeah, that's whatI love about it too. Like
there's no like this is how youdo it. It's just like every baker
has its own way, and likeultimately it's like what's the final product?
(19:41):
Like, you know, and andit's not about you know, Instagram.
I feel like Instagram has created thisthis expectation that all breads have to be
with this extreme open crumb and beautifuland perfect perfect. But like, realistically,
if you travel through Italy and allthe breads I up eating, the
crumb is not open at all,Like the crumb is very dense and and
(20:03):
and you know, it's about theflavor. It's about the flowers you use,
it's the quality of the ingredients.It's not it's not only the look,
right. I feel like Instagram hascreated all of that which I'm part
of, you are part of.Man, I'm looking at these photos.
It's unbelievable. Yeah, definitely,but you know, it's it's important to
you know, pick great ingredients.You know, support local and I always
(20:29):
always preached that. So so tellme a little bit about the actual Instagram
account. Are you taking these photos? I mean, these photos on breadcrumb
and it's underscore breadcrumb, unbelievable.Thank you. That's a me. That's
so I took all. I takeall the photos. I have a little
(20:52):
shaping table here in my dining room. You know, I always try to
get you know, get the rightlighting during the day and whenever, you
know, I kind of plan itwith with with the lighting. Okay,
if I'm taking photos, so areyou using are you supplementing the lighting?
No, not at all. Ihave a a you know, but my
my dining room is this beautiful windowthat you know, I get the afternoon
(21:15):
lighting and it's just perfect. Andwhat kind of camera are you using,
if you don't mind me asking,my iPhone eleven pro? No way.
Yeah. Yeah, And I alsoshot my book. That's that was all
me. Those are all my photos. Well you also, I mean,
you have everything it takes to doit. You have the eye, I
(21:38):
mean, because the way these photosare set up, I'm looking at him
right now, it's just on real. Thank you. It's fun. I
love photography, definitely. I'm nextinvestment. It will be a nice camera
for sure. So I'm looking ata photo here. This must be a
chibata. Yep, tell me alittle bit about jabada. I'd like to
(22:02):
become partially better? Is that theone from my book? This one was
it might be in your book.It's on your Instagram feed from May twenty
nineteen. So chabbata it's, youknow, it's it's it's a pretty easy,
you know, straightforward kind of likesame you know, same day kind
of bake. You know, Soyou want to you want to develop a
(22:25):
great you know, great dog,great structure. I in this, in
this one I use in the dog, I use a Red five brain that
actually my friend Anthony, they ownhim and his family owned maybe Terra bake
House. It's a big bakery herein Pittsburgh. They sell bread, the
whole foods pretty much everyone in thehis coast or They're pretty awesome and they
(22:45):
grow their own grain in Arizona.So I always whenever I see him,
always still a little bit of theirgrain because they have some some of the
best stuff, and so Red fiveis what they mainly use. And so
I had a sum in my hand. I was like, let me try
this, and you know, it'sjust fun to work with. It absorbs
a tunnel water, so you can, you know, up your iteration in
(23:07):
the dough. Now, for achebata, what I did? You know,
you book proof it and basically kindof just like when it's up to
up to like righte proofing, youkind of just like laying on the on
the table like kind of like alike a big rectangular and then you just
cut it like you cut either you'relike like little chabatas or your your lobes
and you put it on a ona baking cloth or a coush and then
(23:32):
you just let it, let itproof again. You don't want to shape
it too much. You're not rolling, you're not folding, you're not shaping.
You just want to be delicate withthe dough and you know you just
cut it, let it, letlike give it a little proof again and
then bake right away. What's therising agent you're using? Well, for
this one in my book, Idid a poolish and it's a hybrid.
(23:53):
So I did a poolish and Idid like with sour dough. Okay,
could you could you walk us throughthat that poolish step if we wanted to
make because I've never made anything withsour dough as the rising Asian in the
same day. So with the poolish, does that start in the morning too
or is that actually the day before? What I you could started in the
(24:15):
same day, but I do itthe day before. So you want to
go you know, very small amountof east we'll talking, you know,
zero two percent zero, you know, five percent yeast of something like red
Star active east. I would Iwould use I don't personally use active dry.
I use instant, okay, wheneven when I make pizza for you
(24:38):
know staff, instant East. Yeah, instant is because active bra you have
to activate it and what that youknow, if I'm making if I'm making
though, if I'm making pizza,I don't want to activate my my east.
It's just an extra step, rightbecause your active in the east and
you have to use warm water andthat messes up with the temperature of your
dough. So instantly is or fresheast like Baker's East, straight into the
(25:03):
mix and and just let it go. Now, you're Polish. Polish is
different than bigger. It's the samething. Basically, it's a prefer meat
so you're prefermenting a portion of yourflower into the on the final mix.
Now, polish is different than biggerbecause of the hydration. Now polish is
a is a one hundred percent hydrationmix. Prefer meat, A bigger will
(25:29):
be like forty fifty sixty percent,depending on depending on the bakery hydration.
Yes, uh so the polish,you know, like the bigger, they
will improve texture of your dough andyou know, elasticity and and and just
overall you know texture. So yeah, very small amount of yeast. Uh
(25:53):
just room temperature. You can eithergo room temperature or fridge and all.
There's some many ways you can dothis. I usually do room temperature for
five six hours and just let itstart, let it go, and then
put it in the fridge overnight.The next day, I'm adding to that
poolish and obviously you measure everything perfectly. So I'm add into that poolish flower
(26:18):
water, you know, sour dough, and I start mixing. I always
keep a little water behind, alittle water, you know, on the
side that I can add at theend of it. So you do want
to, I want to, youknow, create a great grooden structure.
Start mixing, and then start addingmore water and kind of like push the
dough up until it takes it,you know, and you could tell by
(26:40):
looking or feeling feeling, you know, you stretch it, you do like
a little window pane, you know, tests and yeah, you just see
it. It's gotta be shiny,not steaky, like your dough doesn't never
have to be like too steaky.Fortunate back, yeah, like even higher,
like because you go high addration,you know, like easily and no
(27:02):
salt. Oh yeah, absolutely,yeah, salt. Salt. Yeah,
it always salt. Even though Igrew up eating some breads in Rome pana
is Chapel, which they make withno salt, and you know, I
never liked it. That's a goodreason. Yeah. How do you feel
about eating sugar the dose? Idon't personally do it. I think,
(27:26):
I don't know. I think Ithink that takes away from building flavor.
I think because you know those thatyeast is going to consume that sugar instead
of breaking down you know, thecarbohydrates in the flour. I mean,
you know, we get into likechemical reactions here, but I never do.
(27:48):
I never add sugar or you know, anything like that. When are
you doing for coccia a similar method. Are you doing a poolish for coca?
So in the book, I dodirect though, so I'm just mixing
yeasts right away. But sometimes Iwill make you know, if I'm making
it at home, you know todayfor tomorrow, and I want to spit
(28:10):
up the process or like you know, just spit up that enzymatic activity in
the end the though, I makeit bigger the day before, you know,
the night before, make a biggerSame same thing with for the polish.
You know, you just live itout, put it in the fridge.
You can live it it from temperature, and the next day you just
make all your ingredients in bull proofit for a few hours. Usually I
(28:33):
use like a thirty thirty two fiftypercent bigger in might focacia from being in
the same day, uh, andit just comes hairy and like, you
know, super crispy. Now youhad a focaccia that I think it was
called focaccia Police Poulies. Yeah,so Pulia Poulias is a region. It's
(28:53):
one of my favorite regions in Italy. It's it's basically the heel of the
book, right, like the veryvery south beautiful olive oils, like just
ingredients like the seafood in Pulia.It's just unbelievable. I spent some time
there this summer and it was myfirst time down there, so it was
it was just amazing. Yeah,the polies, it would just use fresh
(29:15):
tomatoes, you know, onions.Some people do it with like different things.
I'm looking at that photo. It'sso pretty the tomatoes you have on
there, and then you have redonions and it looks like rosemary. Yeah,
rosemary, original flaky salt, alwaysmandatory. It looks so beautiful.
(29:37):
I love the on I mean onionsto me, like whenever, even when
I make Roman pizza, right,make a nice tray of romana, like
putting raw onion on the door beforeyou bake it. It just enhances the
whole experience. Like the onions alljust gonna like turn into like this sweet,
you know, and if they burna little bit, it's even better.
(29:57):
So so this this focacci, CanI make this without using sour though?
Yeah? Absolutely that that recipe isactually made with with commercial ease.
It is. Yeah, most ofmy pizzas in the book are are made
with commercial lease and they're direct thoseI give them forty eight hours usually fermentation
(30:18):
in the fridge. But I did. I did include because I know how
everyone's obsessed with sour though, andI am too. I love it.
I did. I did include arecipe with sour though, which is the
general basing, oh forcati generation.Yeah, so I did a focaccio genovas
it with sour though, because Imake that's the one I make. I
learned that from reading Carol Field's book. But not sour though. Okay,
(30:44):
yeah, sour though. You know, I usually you know what, if
I make pizza, I don't.I don't use sour though. That's you
know, it's it's ease, it'scommercial ease. It's just that flavor memory
that I have, and you know, it's a textual thing and it's a
flavor thing for me. But you'redoing pull for the pizza, right.
If I do a prefermat, Ido bigger, Okay if I if I
(31:07):
use a prefermat. But usually whenI make pizza is direct though, I
make go straight straight in the fridgeup to ninety six hours. Wow,
yeah, up to it. Imean I usually do forty minimum forty eight,
you know, and I and Icut my door and appreciate it kind
of like halfway and I let itfinish for meat in the fridge shaped and
(31:30):
then I just take it out,give it like three hours room tamp and
bake it. Wow, it's amazing. I just gotta I just got a
gaszmy dome for my backyard, andoh man, that thing like one.
I don't really have a reason tohave it. I have the rock box
already. Nice. I have thattoo, yeah by side you know you
(31:53):
have. It's so pretty. There'sso nice. I was just I was
just on your Instagram earlier. Iwas looking at that igglue. So many
people thought that was real. Thatwas ath I thought it was real.
What what is happening here? Peoplewill come into the shop that we sell
(32:14):
our bread at before the next nostorm asking for our pizza though, because
they want to try the igloe.And I said, listen, guys,
we're kinding around it not real.Oh that was great, that was great,
thank you. And is this whatI think it is? Bombolini?
Bologne? Yeah, Bologne, sobone Bay it's a bone Bay Bombologni and
(32:37):
in Rome it's it's it's a thing, so they do Bombolognian chambelle. With
chambelle will be the donuts that youguys have in the US, so with
the hole in the middle, witha hole in the middle, and they're
just tossed in sugar. We don'tdo we don't do you. We don't
do blaze or anything, just tossedin sugar. But the Bombologna, I
wanted to include that recipe because it'sjust like it's one of my with the
(32:59):
espresso filling and milk chocolate is justreally so how do you do? So
tell me a little bit more aboutthat again, another great photo. I've
done these with Nataella filling. Soso this is an espresso filling. So
this is an espresso feeling. Thefilling that I did was basically a custard
(33:21):
that I made with it by infusingjust coffee beans into the into the custard.
And then after the custard is done, you just throw a bunch of
milk chocolate in it and and whenit cools down, the milk chocolate obviously
is gonna harmens, right, andso it's going to give you that creamy
extra texture that you're that you're lookingfor. So it's a meg custard,
(33:43):
you know, flavored with coffee andchocolate and milk and so Essentially, it's
it's fried dough. Correct, deepfried dough. It's a sour dough bombologne
again, obsessed with sour dough,so that that that takes it up,
you know, a notch as faras flavor. It's it's basically a brioche
though. You know, with sourthough, long proofing, they do need
(34:06):
to prove a long time because it'san enriched though with sour though, so
that's you know, yes, youneed to prove for a long time.
So enriched though you were talking abouteggs, we're talking about butter milk.
Butter, yes, correct, Yeah, long proofing and then you know,
get your oil nice and hot.And is it a cult for men in
(34:28):
the fridge along? Like so youmix it and that it could be you
could do both. You could doyou can. You can always manage fermentation,
how however you prefer based on yourschedule and your your preference. In
this case, I believe I didsame day, you know, like room
temperature. I think I went upsix hours fermentation and then they're fried.
(34:54):
It's just so interesting. I'm lookingat this and I'm thinking one day at
the farmer's mar It's I love tosometimes just do something crazy and just show
up with just this. I thinkit involve people's mind because no one else
has anything like this. Yeah youshould, you should. And if this
could be stored at room temperature.Yeah, they're best sold warm and and
(35:16):
and and quick. You know,like you don't want to you don't have
him sit all day out. Butyou know, if you're a farmers market,
you know, if they sit outfor one hour, people will going
to consume them quick and they'll befine. I'm actually starting farmers market also
here in Pittsburgh. Oh you're gonnado it. Yeah. So I have
(35:37):
different some a few different things goingon right now. So I'm the US
chef an ambassador for Moretti for Me, which is an Italian brand. They
make professional deck opens pizza ovens.It's an electric deck oven that also you
can get with steam too, rightexactly, yeah, correct, And they
just came out with the with thenew open. It's the Neapolis, which
(35:58):
is designed for hold them pizza aroundpizzas. I mean, you can make
pala, you can make anything inthat thing. It's it's gorgeous. Well,
the other the other oven is designedfor rectangular. The other one is
a dack open, so bred crossan'spastries, bread, you know, just
anything. So that's just a dackhoven. The other one is it's it
(36:19):
mimics a wood burning open as faras the shape goes, comes in two
sizes, and you have basically,you know, six or nine pizzas that
you can make at a consistent temperature, you know, extremely consistent and fully
electric. And you're going to takethat to the pharmer's marketing. No,
I think I'm gonna I'm gonna havea No, that would be fun,
(36:39):
that will be all, but it'sit's a little it's a little too big
for that. Yeah, But no, I'm gonna I'm gonna use it dack
open and just make some for catchassandwiches and pizzas romana, mostly because I'm
looking to open a business here inPittsburgh. Really Yeah, so I want
to do a little pizza romana likeRoman Shop with a cafe bakery in the
(37:05):
morning. I love that idea.Yeah, And in the meantime, I'm
just you know, consulting and travelingaround with them, you know, all
over the country, which has beenfun. What would you think about bringing
the rock box or those types ofthings to the Farmer's market. I thought
about it. Yeah, yeah,it's it is. It is. Well,
I will bring the dome more thanthe rock box. Uh. It
(37:27):
is a little heavy to move,but you know I could find the system
because I just got the cart.Also, like the bottom part, so
guys saw on the Guys and theInstagram they featured somebody that started a marble
pizza business with all with the domeset up. It looks just on the
F two in the in the truck, right is that? Yeah? No,
(37:52):
it's super cool. I love it. So, you know, back
to the business side of things,where do you you're doing Breadcrumb? What
is if you don't mind me asking, what is the what are you?
What's the end goal here with breadCrumb? So well, my end goal
here is to open my own businessand just start, you know, like
(38:12):
just making bread and pizzas and justpastries and have fun like that. Bread
Crumb has transformed obviously, like sinceI started it with the book and with
other things I do. I amstarting to do more consulting and more classes.
So I think maybe bread Crumb couldbecome a platform where people you know,
(38:34):
come and learn and have classes.We have one on one, we
have group classes, so that thatcould be an option. Well, I'm
interested in taking some classes and someconsulting because I love everything you're doing here
and I aspire to be able tobake what you're showcasing. Thank you.
That'd be fund That'd be super fun. I was just in Miami doing some
(38:55):
some demos with the Moratiovents and andwe had somehow some pizza guys down there,
and you know, it was fun. It was just fun to make
pizza with all these people. Andthey all have different styles, right,
so they're all bringing their own theirown styles to the table and just like
you know, it's it's just funand enriching. So what one last question.
(39:17):
You kind of fell in love withthe art of cooking and baking because
of your grandmother, and at thisstage in life, are you having fun?
Do you still enjoy it? Ithat is a priority for me.
I get bored real quick if Ido the same thing over and over.
(39:38):
And that's why cooking and baking it'ssuch a you know, broad you know
art that you can just like havefun all the time, and I make
that a priority. I need tohave fun and I need to explore an
experiment all the time, and donew things. I can't do the same
thing every day over and over.I need to I need to explore.
(40:00):
Yes, definitely, definitely still havingfun with it. Is that a potential
obstacle and opening your own place,because once you open that place, I
think no, I mean I thinkthat could that that could seem like it.
But I feel like that could bea platform for me to just you
know, explode and it and andjust you know, just experience what it
(40:21):
is that I've learned over the yearsand and just have fun with it and
make so many different things. Ihave just so many different things that I
that in my mind that I wantto do, and sometimes I don't have
the platform because you know, yeahI'm doing at at home, and but
I think if in a shop consistently, I would just be doing different things
every day. Yeah, I meanit is like I'm not even joking about
showing up one day with just Bombolinior Bombolonni. Yeah, because I have
(40:45):
the freedom to do that, rightyeah, why not? Yeah? And
it's fun And you know that's what'samazing. And I was reading about about
your story too, like it's prettyit's it's impressive where you took the side
as soul. Thank you. Youknow, I'm still trying to figure it
out. We're at a crossroads becauseI got it as far as I can
get it, and I have tomake a move now. I have to.
(41:08):
I think I have to get aplace that's my own so that I
have the freedom to do it theway I want. And also, I
think in the bread business it's importantto figure out revenue streams besides selling loaves
of bread. Most bakers I knowthat are very successful and very talented who
(41:28):
end up opening a bakery, itturns into a cafe in a good way,
right, But you know you needto make money by selling coffee and
sandwiches on your bread and other things, right definitely, So that would be
the nextological step for us, andwe're taking it slow but trying to figure
that out. That's awesome, We'llluck yeah, man, Well, thank
(41:52):
you. It was so nice toget to know you a little bit,
and I really love what you're doing. I certainly I'm going to dive into
your new book, which is availableon your website, my website of Amazon,
Target, Barnes, and novels everywhere. Amazing congratulations on that. I'm
going to certainly check it out andnext time you're free in New York,
(42:15):
please give me a shout. Iwould love to meet up with you.
Absolutely, we'll make some bread,some pizza. Let's do that together,
all right, man, Thank youso much. This episode of Bread for
the People was brought to you bySide Hustle Bread, Long Island's handcrafted,
artisanal bread company. Side Hustle Breadis a family run business that's bringing the
(42:36):
neighborhood feel back to Long Island,one loaf at a time. If you
like what you're hearing, don't forgetto head on over tie iTunes and rate
and review this episode. Reviewing andrating is the most effective way to help
us grow our audience. This episodewas produced by Milestone TV and Film.
I'm Your Host Jim Serpico, Lessit be the Bread, everyone and ten
My name's Jim Serpico. And thisshould I start with my name? What
should I start with? This isbread for the people. Do you like
it like this? Welcome to bread? Or do you like it like this?
Welcome Retty, Welcome to Bread forthe people? Mine? Is there
a script? Today? I hadthe honor of sitting down with Danielle Frenchie.
(00:29):
Danielle is a chef, baker andbreadmaker. He's a US ambassador from
Already forty Pizza ovens. His Instagramaccount Breadcrumb. It's one of the top
breadmaking social media accounts around. Danielli'snew book, Advanced Bread Baking at Home
is available everywhere books are sold.Danielli and I got to talk about his
unique upbringing in Roman, his journey, the difference between Poolish and Viga,
(00:52):
and we learn a little bit aboutbumbaloney and Italian doughnut dusted with sugar.
I hope you enjoyed my conversation withDanielli. So I know you have a
new bread book app cookbook Advanced BreadBaking, which which I'm intrigued about.
But you also you baked bread,pizza, croissants, so many different things.
(01:17):
Yes, So this is what's goingon. I was scrolling through your
Instagram account, of which you havea couple but the Breadcrumb account. Were
you just in Las Vegas for thePizza XBO? I was. I was
with La Las Vegas because I'm aMoretti Furni US chef and ambassador, So
we were there. We had abooth, so much fun. It was
(01:38):
great. So so for people listeningto this podcast, could you explain a
little bit about the Pizza exbo becauseit sounds to me from some of the
people I've been interviewing and talking toa lot of them who are world premiere
chefs were actually there. Yeah.So the Pizza Expo is just like this
this huge a there, uh whereall the pizza All the big you know
(02:01):
pizza h figures in the country andItaly and just outside the US also just
get together and bring their products,bring their you know, new equipment,
new ideas, new recipes, andit's just an opportunity for everyone to just
you know, share, share theirknowledge. And it's been beautiful. So
(02:23):
who attends. Everybody professionals and andjust everybody can. Yeah. Really,
I think I might have to makethat trip next year. Oh. Absolutely,
you've never been I've never been.Oh, it's so much fun.
It's absolutely it's great. So youbring your stove, your oven. Are
people cooking with with wood? Twoinside? How does that work? I
(02:46):
think there was one booth that hadwood burning, but mostly was electric.
So the ovens I represent, thisis an Italian company. They we do
electric ovens. So and we didprovide ovens for other stands also like for
the pizza Champion, because there's achampionship also, so they were using our
(03:06):
open for it. So fully electric. But yeah, so mostly mostly electric
opens. So who's the pizza champion? This guy from from Naples, Karmine.
Okay, he has a pizza shopactually in Miami. I was just
there, really, Yeah, Iwas doing some consulting down there, and
(03:27):
yeah, I just wanted to visit. It was just like a like a
true Neapolitan experience. It was amazing. So from the research I've done,
it looks like you were greatly impactedby your grandmother. M h. I
spending time with her. Yes,I grew up you know, I grew
up in Rome. Spend a lotof time with my grandma. She has
(03:49):
a little place outside of the ofthe city where she build her house.
She has a garden, fruit treesand all of that. And so just
like growing up around all of thoseflavors and all of the you know,
traditions, like really exposed me tolike just building that food memory, that
flavor memory that like today I triedto recreate when I whenever I cook and
I bake, that's amazing. Didshe bake and cook all types of food
(04:14):
or did she like specialize in anarea or she well, she's a great
baker. Like desserts, it's herbig thing. She has hazel lots of
hazel nut trees, so she willmake anything with hazel nut. It's like
she's not just cakes and caramels andall all kinds of things. But she's
a great cook in general. Likethey they're hunters also, there's a lot
(04:38):
of wild animals around where they live. She's a forager, so she will
just use anything that comes in frontof her and she'll make it beautiful.
So with that knowledge, as ayoung person, where did you What was
your first professional experience? So Iwent to culinary school in Rome. I
started working at a restaurant in thecenter of Rome. It was a traditional
(05:00):
Roman cuisine when I was sixteen,so From there, I started, you
know, getting exposed to like professionalrestaurants, which I had no idea what
that life was like it was andand and then you know, started traveling,
moved to London, lived in Londonfor a couple of years, and
then I was brought to Malibu toopen a restaurant. Helps understand cuisine?
(05:25):
How is it different in Rome fromfrom other places in Italy? Well?
Rome, Well, the beauty ofthe cuisine, the Italian cuisine is that
like every region, you know howItalian Italy is divided in regions, right,
so every region has its specialties andand you know, depending on what
(05:46):
what what the what what the landhas to offer, like there will be
like recipes that you can find,you know in Sicily versus Piedmont, right,
and so Roman cuisine, you know, like everywhere you go, it's
like the best wine, the bestcheese, the best salumi, and you
know, the fresh pastas, andeveryone has a different style of making it.
It's it's basically kind of like thesame thing everywhere you go, but
(06:09):
everyone makes it a little different andthey make it their own. So that's
the beauty of Italian cuisine. Verynice. And now you've you've took that
and you got how did you findthe work in California and Malibu? Someone
brought you over from from So Iwas working in London at a Mission and
(06:30):
Star restaurant, and you know,the chef comes up to me one day
and it's like, you know,I got a job offer Malibu to open
this restaurant. Let's go. Youwant to go, Mike? All right,
let's go. We packed and weleft the next day and here I
am nine years later. Almost whatrestaurant was that it was? It was
called Nikita. It's uh, it'sit's right on the ocean next to Nobu,
(06:53):
okay, right in the heart ofMalibu, basically, And how much
time did you spend at that restaurant? I was there for a couple of
years. And while in Malibu,I was introduced to some celebrities and some
and some families out there, andI started working as a private chef for
them. I wanted to step outof the of the restaurant lifestyle for a
(07:15):
little while and just you know,take care of myself for a little bit.
Uh, you know, going fromworking from selves fifteen seventeen hours a
day to like six it's pretty sweet. But life is a personal chef must
be interesting, you must have somegreat stories. Definitely to the stars.
Yeah, so as a personal cheffor for some celebrities in Malibu and uh.
(07:35):
And then after that, I decidedto go back to restaurants after a
couple of years, and so Imoved to Chicago. I was in Chicago
for a couple of years. Whileworking at a restaurant in Chicago, I
injured my lower back again because Iwas working lots of you know, long
hours and all the uh injured mylower back and I couldn't really work for
(07:57):
a few months. Uh. Andin the meantime, I got a job
offer to move to Pittsburgh to bea private chef again. And and so
I really like consider, like,Okay, where's my career going at this
point with this injury, and youknow how I want to you know,
approach the future, And so Idecided to move. It was a great
opportunity. One of the guys thatused to work with me in Malibu was
(08:20):
the one that offered me the job, and so I moved and I stayed
with this family for three years andI started bread Crumb in the meantime.
So how long has that been around. So bread Crumb started four years ago,
about four or five years ago.So somebody somebody gifted me a little
soured was starting and I had neverI had never took care of a start
(08:43):
sour though, like I didn't reallyknow. I mean, I knew what
it was, but I didn't reallyit wasn't my you know, every day,
and and so I was like,okay, let's let's let's see what
this about. Let's make some bread. I made a first loave of bread
at home and it was terrible.It was just like like a stone like
then and and lad you know,like all the everything went wrong, everything
(09:03):
that could go wrong went wrong.But you know, being the professionist I
am, I'm like, okay,I'm going to figure this out. So
I started baking more consistently, youknow, started posting on Instagram everything I
was baking on bread Crumb. Andthen the pandemic hit. Now with the
pandemic, I had so much youknow, I was still working for the
family during the pandemic, but Ihad so much time, you know,
(09:24):
to really dedicate myself to baking.And so and so I started baking more
consistently. I got a book dealand then you know, now advanced bread
baking at home. It's it's outin the world and I'm so excited about
it. So yeah, so soso much happened. And then in the
past three years, so you didn'treally work with the hour though up until
(09:46):
four years ago. Is that?Is that what I'm understanding? Yeah,
basically, yeah, four or fiveyears ago. And then I started,
you know, consistently baking and thentrying to perfect you know, everything I
wanted to perfect, like crossants andyou know, just like different loads and
different recipes. But yeah, it'sit's been, it's been four years consistently.
I grew up in Rome, soyou know, you grow up around
(10:09):
food and bread and pizza. Youknow, it's in my blood. I
feel like it. So but yeah, professionally consistently has been for four years.
I mean, your your work,it's just unbelievably beautiful. Thank you.
I know you're familiar with with bakingand bread and cooking, but you
know, what did you do,what Stepps, did you take to become
(10:31):
so good at it so quickly?So I well, I've always kind of
baked in all the restaurants. Iwill always spend time in the pastry department
and the bakery department, and youknow the I will always like cut out
a little time out of my dayto go learn about it because it's because
it was because I was cooking,so it wasn't what I was doing.
(10:52):
But I've always been passionate about bakingand pastries, pastries specially, I just
love desserts. But yeah, justI think, you know, using like
using great flowers, like trying tosource locally and try to understand, like
really trying to understand how like eachdifferent grain performs when you're when you're baking.
And that's and that's why you knowadvanced bread baking, that's that's where
(11:15):
Evans bread baking was born. Iwanted to like just transmit this, uh,
this passion for for for the qualityof the ingredients and just like have
people understand that that you can makethe same recipe two different days and you
can have two completely different outcomes,like it's not always consistent. So understanding
how how ingredients perform that's what's advancedto me. Now, what what techniques
(11:41):
do you use? Let's talk abouta basic rustic sour though. What's the
process that you go through? There'sthere's many steps or there can be many
steps, can be many steps.I so when I when I'm making it
at home, I auto this myflower one hour at least I try.
(12:03):
I always try to use whole graininto my into my mix. Do Okay,
So let's even back up. Sofor my friends who who hear these
terms come out on some of thesepodcasts and don't know what they mean,
explain to the layman what autolise is. So autolise is when you basically just
mix only the flour and water andlisten in a recipe. Now you can
(12:28):
you can mix all the water,or you can mix an eighty percent of
the water and keep a little biton the side that you're going to add
later for better bluden development. Andyou know you can like app that hydration
as you as you add water.But yeah, it's basically just water and
flower. You just let it sitstart their enzymatic activity, uh, start
(12:48):
building gluben and flavor also, sothat's the main reason it's building gluding and
flavor. Yeah, so that's themain reason for your autolise and it helps.
So yeah, obviously helps like thestrength of the dough as you start
building gluden. So after the autoliesI have my my my levan or my
(13:09):
sour dough at the right point,you know, I usually I feed my
stop sour. Do start it atone hundred percent hitriction, which means equal
parts water flower sour dough, right, So that means it's pretty thin,
right, It's it's thin, yeah, it's it's a liquid sour though,
Like do you keep it in therefrigerator. I keep it in the refrigerator
(13:31):
if I store it. But whenI'm baking, I usually feed it once,
refresh you once, Like I letit go through one cycle of feeding,
and then I use it just tolike keep it acting, right.
I hide my sour though to theautoliest flower. If I'm mixing by hand,
you know, it's it's a it'sa ten minute you know mixing because
(13:52):
like then with folds, you're goingto over time build that guden, right,
that's strength in the dough. Orif I'm using it each and aid
again, it's like eight ten minutes, it's a very short you know mix
because then we go through a longfermentation and during that fermentation we I perform
faults, which you know, developedstrengthened the dough and you know, it's
(14:16):
it makes it easy to work with. So the long fermentation otherwise known as
a bulk proof correct. So afterwe mix after max bolk fermentation, I
usually do you know, I alwayshave an eye grometer in my kitchen that
measures humidity and temperature. Also,yeah, it's in my fridge. It's
like one of those you know,stick on the fridge. It's so it's
(14:37):
so useful. I love it.What exactly are you you're trying to figure
out? So with that, thatindicates the temperature in the humidity in the
room. Right, So obviously,like my kitchen is never going to be
above seventy percent humidity, which iswhich is pretty much the right humidity for
(14:58):
for proof. So what I doI turn my oven into a into a
proving chamber and I talk about itin the book. So basically, you
turn the light on the ovens off. Light on, The light heats up
and brings that temperature up in theoven. You do this like a half
hour forty minutes before you put thebread in the dough, and and you
(15:22):
know you're output seventy five. Youknow you want to you want to be
between I want to be between seventyeighty degrees. Now for humidity. In
what I do in the oven,I just put a cup of hot water
from the tap into the oven.There's like twenty minutes before and that brings
the humidity up. Now, withthat ygrometer in the oven, I'm able
(15:45):
to measure exactly temperature and humidity.And so whenever I'm both proofing both fromenting
my dough, I just keep itin the oven uncovered because it doesn't dry
out. The humidity is just right. And then a forty five minutes fifty
minutes depending on the recipe. Ijust I performed folds. Do you then
(16:06):
do you a called fermentation after that? Yes? I do so. After
the book proof, I usually apprecihapeit because I'm usually working with one kilo
flowers seventy five percent iteration, soI make about like two or three loaves
like that. So I appreciape itand I let it bench rest covered for
about an hour, so both fermentation. I go three and a half four
(16:30):
hours, so not super long.Some people got up to six, you
know, depending on the recipe,but I do three and a half.
Usually three folds. I apprecihape,let it rest for about an hour,
and then shape it. After ashape goes in the basket straight in the
fridge overnight, look up up tosixteen eighteen hours. And then obviously I'm
(16:55):
baking in in a cast iron ahome, so I'm baking one of the
time, sometimes a big twice becauseI have lava rocks also set up in
my in my in my home ovento create steam and all of that.
But if I'm baking in a ina cast iron pin and bake one at
the time, so and it takesabout forty five fifteen minutes, so the
other loave that is in the fridgegets that one hour extended fermentation, and
(17:22):
I always see the difference. It'salways fun to look at the difference just
a one hour. So when I'mbaking at this point, I'm usually baking
for a farmer's market, a multiplefarmer's markets, and I'm not baking one
or two loaves at a time.So right one of the issues I have
is all the space, the amountof time I have as one person trying
(17:52):
to do eighty loaves. Any advicefor me on trying to hit all these
steps because I cut some corners Idon't do because what you're talking about for
two loaves of bread is a lotof work. It's a lot of work.
It's easier to manage, for sure. Yeah, when you talk about
large quantities, maybe you want towe want to make your book fermentation a
(18:15):
little shorter and play like that,because by the time you're done appre shaping
and shaping, you know all ofit that I don't know how much,
how much though you work with ata time, but you know, to
shorter your book fermentation, you're ableto you know, by the time you're
done shaping, to get to theright point of ferdentation what I've been doing.
And again I kind of just figuredthis out. And I don't know
(18:37):
if we're better or for worse.I don't appreciate. I get to called
fermentation step in bolt and then Ishape and put it right in the oven.
That allows me. I don't know, it's just the way I figured
it out to h it actually saysspace. It's really more that because I'm
(19:00):
keeping them in cubes, in rectangularcubes and the refrigerator and I don't have
individual Benaton's in the refrigerator trying toI did try that originally. Then I
had to figure out how to stackthem, and you know, how to
do. It's definitely more practical thatway, for sure. Yeah. I
(19:21):
mean that's the amazing thing about breadthere. I don't know, I don't
know if there's even a right orwrong. It's just all a little different,
you know. Yeah, that's whatI love about it too. Like
there's no like this is how youdo it. It's just like every baker
has its own way, and likeultimately it's like what's the final product?
(19:41):
Like, you know, and andit's not about you know, Instagram.
I feel like Instagram has created thisthis expectation that all breads have to be
with this extreme open crumb and beautifuland perfect perfect. But like, realistically,
if you travel through Italy and allthe breads I up eating, the
crumb is not open at all,Like the crumb is very dense and and
(20:03):
and you know, it's about theflavor. It's about the flowers you use,
it's the quality of the ingredients.It's not it's not only the look,
right. I feel like Instagram hascreated all of that which I'm part
of, you are part of.Man, I'm looking at these photos.
It's unbelievable. Yeah, definitely,but you know, it's it's important to
you know, pick great ingredients.You know, support local and I always
(20:29):
always preached that. So so tellme a little bit about the actual Instagram
account. Are you taking these photos? I mean, these photos on breadcrumb
and it's underscore breadcrumb, unbelievable.Thank you. That's a me. That's
so I took all. I takeall the photos. I have a little
(20:52):
shaping table here in my dining room. You know, I always try to
get you know, get the rightlighting during the day and whenever, you
know, I kind of plan itwith with with the lighting. Okay,
if I'm taking photos, so areyou using are you supplementing the lighting?
No, not at all. Ihave a a you know, but my
my dining room is this beautiful windowthat you know, I get the afternoon
(21:15):
lighting and it's just perfect. Andwhat kind of camera are you using,
if you don't mind me asking,my iPhone eleven pro? No way.
Yeah. Yeah, And I alsoshot my book. That's that was all
me. Those are all my photos. Well you also, I mean,
you have everything it takes to doit. You have the eye, I
(21:38):
mean, because the way these photosare set up, I'm looking at him
right now, it's just on real. Thank you. It's fun. I
love photography, definitely. I'm nextinvestment. It will be a nice camera
for sure. So I'm looking ata photo here. This must be a
chibata. Yep, tell me alittle bit about jabada. I'd like to
(22:02):
become partially better? Is that theone from my book? This one was
it might be in your book.It's on your Instagram feed from May twenty
nineteen. So chabbata it's, youknow, it's it's it's a pretty easy,
you know, straightforward kind of likesame you know, same day kind
of bake. You know, Soyou want to you want to develop a
(22:25):
great you know, great dog,great structure. I in this, in
this one I use in the dog, I use a Red five brain that
actually my friend Anthony, they ownhim and his family owned maybe Terra bake
House. It's a big bakery herein Pittsburgh. They sell bread, the
whole foods pretty much everyone in thehis coast or They're pretty awesome and they
(22:45):
grow their own grain in Arizona.So I always whenever I see him,
always still a little bit of theirgrain because they have some some of the
best stuff, and so Red fiveis what they mainly use. And so
I had a sum in my hand. I was like, let me try
this, and you know, it'sjust fun to work with. It absorbs
a tunnel water, so you can, you know, up your iteration in
(23:07):
the dough. Now, for achebata, what I did? You know,
you book proof it and basically kindof just like when it's up to
up to like righte proofing, youkind of just like laying on the on
the table like kind of like alike a big rectangular and then you just
cut it like you cut either you'relike like little chabatas or your your lobes
and you put it on a ona baking cloth or a coush and then
(23:32):
you just let it, let itproof again. You don't want to shape
it too much. You're not rolling, you're not folding, you're not shaping.
You just want to be delicate withthe dough and you know you just
cut it, let it, letlike give it a little proof again and
then bake right away. What's therising agent you're using? Well, for
this one in my book, Idid a poolish and it's a hybrid.
(23:53):
So I did a poolish and Idid like with sour dough. Okay,
could you could you walk us throughthat that poolish step if we wanted to
make because I've never made anything withsour dough as the rising Asian in the
same day. So with the poolish, does that start in the morning too
or is that actually the day before? What I you could started in the
(24:15):
same day, but I do itthe day before. So you want to
go you know, very small amountof east we'll talking, you know,
zero two percent zero, you know, five percent yeast of something like red
Star active east. I would Iwould use I don't personally use active dry.
I use instant, okay, wheneven when I make pizza for you
(24:38):
know staff, instant East. Yeah, instant is because active bra you have
to activate it and what that youknow, if I'm making if I'm making
though, if I'm making pizza,I don't want to activate my my east.
It's just an extra step, rightbecause your active in the east and
you have to use warm water andthat messes up with the temperature of your
dough. So instantly is or fresheast like Baker's East, straight into the
(25:03):
mix and and just let it go. Now, you're Polish. Polish is
different than bigger. It's the samething. Basically, it's a prefer meat
so you're prefermenting a portion of yourflower into the on the final mix.
Now, polish is different than biggerbecause of the hydration. Now polish is
a is a one hundred percent hydrationmix. Prefer meat, A bigger will
(25:29):
be like forty fifty sixty percent,depending on depending on the bakery hydration.
Yes, uh so the polish,you know, like the bigger, they
will improve texture of your dough andyou know, elasticity and and and just
overall you know texture. So yeah, very small amount of yeast. Uh
(25:53):
just room temperature. You can eithergo room temperature or fridge and all.
There's some many ways you can dothis. I usually do room temperature for
five six hours and just let itstart, let it go, and then
put it in the fridge overnight.The next day, I'm adding to that
poolish and obviously you measure everything perfectly. So I'm add into that poolish flower
(26:18):
water, you know, sour dough, and I start mixing. I always
keep a little water behind, alittle water, you know, on the
side that I can add at theend of it. So you do want
to, I want to, youknow, create a great grooden structure.
Start mixing, and then start addingmore water and kind of like push the
dough up until it takes it,you know, and you could tell by
(26:40):
looking or feeling feeling, you know, you stretch it, you do like
a little window pane, you know, tests and yeah, you just see
it. It's gotta be shiny,not steaky, like your dough doesn't never
have to be like too steaky.Fortunate back, yeah, like even higher,
like because you go high addration,you know, like easily and no
(27:02):
salt. Oh yeah, absolutely,yeah, salt. Salt. Yeah,
it always salt. Even though Igrew up eating some breads in Rome pana
is Chapel, which they make withno salt, and you know, I
never liked it. That's a goodreason. Yeah. How do you feel
about eating sugar the dose? Idon't personally do it. I think,
(27:26):
I don't know. I think Ithink that takes away from building flavor.
I think because you know those thatyeast is going to consume that sugar instead
of breaking down you know, thecarbohydrates in the flour. I mean,
you know, we get into likechemical reactions here, but I never do.
(27:48):
I never add sugar or you know, anything like that. When are
you doing for coccia a similar method. Are you doing a poolish for coca?
So in the book, I dodirect though, so I'm just mixing
yeasts right away. But sometimes Iwill make you know, if I'm making
it at home, you know todayfor tomorrow, and I want to spit
(28:10):
up the process or like you know, just spit up that enzymatic activity in
the end the though, I makeit bigger the day before, you know,
the night before, make a biggerSame same thing with for the polish.
You know, you just live itout, put it in the fridge.
You can live it it from temperature, and the next day you just
make all your ingredients in bull proofit for a few hours. Usually I
(28:33):
use like a thirty thirty two fiftypercent bigger in might focacia from being in
the same day, uh, andit just comes hairy and like, you
know, super crispy. Now youhad a focaccia that I think it was
called focaccia Police Poulies. Yeah,so Pulia Poulias is a region. It's
(28:53):
one of my favorite regions in Italy. It's it's basically the heel of the
book, right, like the veryvery south beautiful olive oils, like just
ingredients like the seafood in Pulia.It's just unbelievable. I spent some time
there this summer and it was myfirst time down there, so it was
it was just amazing. Yeah,the polies, it would just use fresh
(29:15):
tomatoes, you know, onions.Some people do it with like different things.
I'm looking at that photo. It'sso pretty the tomatoes you have on
there, and then you have redonions and it looks like rosemary. Yeah,
rosemary, original flaky salt, alwaysmandatory. It looks so beautiful.
(29:37):
I love the on I mean onionsto me, like whenever, even when
I make Roman pizza, right,make a nice tray of romana, like
putting raw onion on the door beforeyou bake it. It just enhances the
whole experience. Like the onions alljust gonna like turn into like this sweet,
you know, and if they burna little bit, it's even better.
(29:57):
So so this this focacci, CanI make this without using sour though?
Yeah? Absolutely that that recipe isactually made with with commercial ease.
It is. Yeah, most ofmy pizzas in the book are are made
with commercial lease and they're direct thoseI give them forty eight hours usually fermentation
(30:18):
in the fridge. But I did. I did include because I know how
everyone's obsessed with sour though, andI am too. I love it.
I did. I did include arecipe with sour though, which is the
general basing, oh forcati generation.Yeah, so I did a focaccio genovas
it with sour though, because Imake that's the one I make. I
learned that from reading Carol Field's book. But not sour though. Okay,
(30:44):
yeah, sour though. You know, I usually you know what, if
I make pizza, I don't.I don't use sour though. That's you
know, it's it's ease, it'scommercial ease. It's just that flavor memory
that I have, and you know, it's a textual thing and it's a
flavor thing for me. But you'redoing pull for the pizza, right.
If I do a prefermat, Ido bigger, Okay if I if I
(31:07):
use a prefermat. But usually whenI make pizza is direct though, I
make go straight straight in the fridgeup to ninety six hours. Wow,
yeah, up to it. Imean I usually do forty minimum forty eight,
you know, and I and Icut my door and appreciate it kind
of like halfway and I let itfinish for meat in the fridge shaped and
(31:30):
then I just take it out,give it like three hours room tamp and
bake it. Wow, it's amazing. I just gotta I just got a
gaszmy dome for my backyard, andoh man, that thing like one.
I don't really have a reason tohave it. I have the rock box
already. Nice. I have thattoo, yeah by side you know you
(31:53):
have. It's so pretty. There'sso nice. I was just I was
just on your Instagram earlier. Iwas looking at that igglue. So many
people thought that was real. Thatwas ath I thought it was real.
What what is happening here? Peoplewill come into the shop that we sell
(32:14):
our bread at before the next nostorm asking for our pizza though, because
they want to try the igloe.And I said, listen, guys,
we're kinding around it not real.Oh that was great, that was great,
thank you. And is this whatI think it is? Bombolini?
Bologne? Yeah, Bologne, sobone Bay it's a bone Bay Bombologni and
(32:37):
in Rome it's it's it's a thing, so they do Bombolognian chambelle. With
chambelle will be the donuts that youguys have in the US, so with
the hole in the middle, witha hole in the middle, and they're
just tossed in sugar. We don'tdo we don't do you. We don't
do blaze or anything, just tossedin sugar. But the Bombologna, I
wanted to include that recipe because it'sjust like it's one of my with the
(32:59):
espresso filling and milk chocolate is justreally so how do you do? So
tell me a little bit more aboutthat again, another great photo. I've
done these with Nataella filling. Soso this is an espresso filling. So
this is an espresso feeling. Thefilling that I did was basically a custard
(33:21):
that I made with it by infusingjust coffee beans into the into the custard.
And then after the custard is done, you just throw a bunch of
milk chocolate in it and and whenit cools down, the milk chocolate obviously
is gonna harmens, right, andso it's going to give you that creamy
extra texture that you're that you're lookingfor. So it's a meg custard,
(33:43):
you know, flavored with coffee andchocolate and milk and so Essentially, it's
it's fried dough. Correct, deepfried dough. It's a sour dough bombologne
again, obsessed with sour dough,so that that that takes it up,
you know, a notch as faras flavor. It's it's basically a brioche
though. You know, with sourthough, long proofing, they do need
(34:06):
to prove a long time because it'san enriched though with sour though, so
that's you know, yes, youneed to prove for a long time.
So enriched though you were talking abouteggs, we're talking about butter milk.
Butter, yes, correct, Yeah, long proofing and then you know,
get your oil nice and hot.And is it a cult for men in
(34:28):
the fridge along? Like so youmix it and that it could be you
could do both. You could doyou can. You can always manage fermentation,
how however you prefer based on yourschedule and your your preference. In
this case, I believe I didsame day, you know, like room
temperature. I think I went upsix hours fermentation and then they're fried.
(34:54):
It's just so interesting. I'm lookingat this and I'm thinking one day at
the farmer's mar It's I love tosometimes just do something crazy and just show
up with just this. I thinkit involve people's mind because no one else
has anything like this. Yeah youshould, you should. And if this
could be stored at room temperature.Yeah, they're best sold warm and and
(35:16):
and and quick. You know,like you don't want to you don't have
him sit all day out. Butyou know, if you're a farmers market,
you know, if they sit outfor one hour, people will going
to consume them quick and they'll befine. I'm actually starting farmers market also
here in Pittsburgh. Oh you're gonnado it. Yeah. So I have
(35:37):
different some a few different things goingon right now. So I'm the US
chef an ambassador for Moretti for Me, which is an Italian brand. They
make professional deck opens pizza ovens.It's an electric deck oven that also you
can get with steam too, rightexactly, yeah, correct, And they
just came out with the with thenew open. It's the Neapolis, which
(35:58):
is designed for hold them pizza aroundpizzas. I mean, you can make
pala, you can make anything inthat thing. It's it's gorgeous. Well,
the other the other oven is designedfor rectangular. The other one is
a dack open, so bred crossan'spastries, bread, you know, just
anything. So that's just a dackhoven. The other one is it's it
(36:19):
mimics a wood burning open as faras the shape goes, comes in two
sizes, and you have basically,you know, six or nine pizzas that
you can make at a consistent temperature, you know, extremely consistent and fully
electric. And you're going to takethat to the pharmer's marketing. No,
I think I'm gonna I'm gonna havea No, that would be fun,
(36:39):
that will be all, but it'sit's a little it's a little too big
for that. Yeah, But no, I'm gonna I'm gonna use it dack
open and just make some for catchassandwiches and pizzas romana, mostly because I'm
looking to open a business here inPittsburgh. Really Yeah, so I want
to do a little pizza romana likeRoman Shop with a cafe bakery in the
(37:05):
morning. I love that idea.Yeah, And in the meantime, I'm
just you know, consulting and travelingaround with them, you know, all
over the country, which has beenfun. What would you think about bringing
the rock box or those types ofthings to the Farmer's market. I thought
about it. Yeah, yeah,it's it is. It is. Well,
I will bring the dome more thanthe rock box. Uh. It
(37:27):
is a little heavy to move,but you know I could find the system
because I just got the cart.Also, like the bottom part, so
guys saw on the Guys and theInstagram they featured somebody that started a marble
pizza business with all with the domeset up. It looks just on the
F two in the in the truck, right is that? Yeah? No,
(37:52):
it's super cool. I love it. So, you know, back
to the business side of things,where do you you're doing Breadcrumb? What
is if you don't mind me asking, what is the what are you?
What's the end goal here with breadCrumb? So well, my end goal
here is to open my own businessand just start, you know, like
(38:12):
just making bread and pizzas and justpastries and have fun like that. Bread
Crumb has transformed obviously, like sinceI started it with the book and with
other things I do. I amstarting to do more consulting and more classes.
So I think maybe bread Crumb couldbecome a platform where people you know,
(38:34):
come and learn and have classes.We have one on one, we
have group classes, so that thatcould be an option. Well, I'm
interested in taking some classes and someconsulting because I love everything you're doing here
and I aspire to be able tobake what you're showcasing. Thank you.
That'd be fund That'd be super fun. I was just in Miami doing some
(38:55):
some demos with the Moratiovents and andwe had somehow some pizza guys down there,
and you know, it was fun. It was just fun to make
pizza with all these people. Andthey all have different styles, right,
so they're all bringing their own theirown styles to the table and just like
you know, it's it's just funand enriching. So what one last question.
(39:17):
You kind of fell in love withthe art of cooking and baking because
of your grandmother, and at thisstage in life, are you having fun?
Do you still enjoy it? Ithat is a priority for me.
I get bored real quick if Ido the same thing over and over.
(39:38):
And that's why cooking and baking it'ssuch a you know, broad you know
art that you can just like havefun all the time, and I make
that a priority. I need tohave fun and I need to explore an
experiment all the time, and donew things. I can't do the same
thing every day over and over.I need to I need to explore.
(40:00):
Yes, definitely, definitely still havingfun with it. Is that a potential
obstacle and opening your own place,because once you open that place, I
think no, I mean I thinkthat could that that could seem like it.
But I feel like that could bea platform for me to just you
know, explode and it and andjust you know, just experience what it
(40:21):
is that I've learned over the yearsand and just have fun with it and
make so many different things. Ihave just so many different things that I
that in my mind that I wantto do, and sometimes I don't have
the platform because you know, yeahI'm doing at at home, and but
I think if in a shop consistently, I would just be doing different things
every day. Yeah, I meanit is like I'm not even joking about
showing up one day with just Bombolinior Bombolonni. Yeah, because I have
(40:45):
the freedom to do that, rightyeah, why not? Yeah? And
it's fun And you know that's what'samazing. And I was reading about about
your story too, like it's prettyit's it's impressive where you took the side
as soul. Thank you. Youknow, I'm still trying to figure it
out. We're at a crossroads becauseI got it as far as I can
get it, and I have tomake a move now. I have to.
(41:08):
I think I have to get aplace that's my own so that I
have the freedom to do it theway I want. And also, I
think in the bread business it's importantto figure out revenue streams besides selling loaves
of bread. Most bakers I knowthat are very successful and very talented who
(41:28):
end up opening a bakery, itturns into a cafe in a good way,
right, But you know you needto make money by selling coffee and
sandwiches on your bread and other things, right definitely, So that would be
the nextological step for us, andwe're taking it slow but trying to figure
that out. That's awesome, We'llluck yeah, man, Well, thank
(41:52):
you. It was so nice toget to know you a little bit,
and I really love what you're doing. I certainly I'm going to dive into
your new book, which is availableon your website, my website of Amazon,
Target, Barnes, and novels everywhere. Amazing congratulations on that. I'm
going to certainly check it out andnext time you're free in New York,
(42:15):
please give me a shout. Iwould love to meet up with you.
Absolutely, we'll make some bread,some pizza. Let's do that together,
all right, man, Thank youso much. This episode of Bread for
the People was brought to you bySide Hustle Bread, Long Island's handcrafted,
artisanal bread company. Side Hustle Breadis a family run business that's bringing the
(42:36):
neighborhood feel back to Long Island,one loaf at a time. If you
like what you're hearing, don't forgetto head on over tie iTunes and rate
and review this episode. Reviewing andrating is the most effective way to help
us grow our audience. This episodewas produced by Milestone TV and Film.
I'm Your Host Jim Serpico, Lessit be the Bread, everyone and ten
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