October 16, 2023 • 49 mins
Jim Serpico speaks with Rebecca Firkser, a Brooklyn-based writer, recipe developer, and food stylist. They talk about developing recipes for cookbooks and websites, being on set for a food photography shoot, Taylor Ham, the world of food media, and the job of a recipe tester.
Follow Jim Serpico on Instagram at @jimserpico and @sidehustlebread. Follow Rebecca on Instagram @rebeccafirkser and at www.rebeccafirkser.com.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/jim-serpico-bread-for-the-people-sourdough-pizza-life--5704379/support.
Follow Jim Serpico on Instagram at @jimserpico and @sidehustlebread. Follow Rebecca on Instagram @rebeccafirkser and at www.rebeccafirkser.com.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/jim-serpico-bread-for-the-people-sourdough-pizza-life--5704379/support.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
The following episode of Bread for thePeople is brought to you by Side Hustle
Bread, Long Island's handcrafted, artisanalbread company. Side Hustle Bread is a
family run virtual bakery that's bringing theneighborhood feel back to Long Island, one
loaf at a time. Head onover to side Hustlebread dot com for more
information, upcoming appearances and merchandise.My name's Jim Curpico. And this should
(00:23):
I start with my name? Orshould I start with this? Is Bread
for the People. Do you likeit like this? Welcome to bread?
Or do you like it like this? Welcome? Ready, Welcome to Bread
for the People? Mind fuck?Is there a script for the people?
(00:48):
Welcome to Bread for the People.I'm Jim Curproico, my guest today is
a Brooklyn based writer, recipe developer, and food stylist. She specializes or
likes to help people make recipes ona budget. Please welcome Rebecca Ferk,
Sir, thank you for having mebead to be here. How to rehearse
(01:11):
the firk I did? You dida great job. Everybody everybody tends to
mess it up where we're still notsure pay and ask are just never next
to each other in words, Isuppose, but you did a beautiful job.
I appreciate it came out right thefirst time, because even though I
practiced saying it many times, whileI transpose the letters, I have to
(01:34):
start with this. What is TaylorHam and what would it be used for?
I'm so glad you started with this. So I'm from New Jersey.
I'm from northern New Jersey specifically,and Taylor Ham is is the brand of
Taylor pork Roll. If you're inSellar, New Jersey, you'd say pork
(01:56):
roll. If you're in Northern NewJersey, you'd say Taylor Ham. If
you're in Central Jersey. I haveno idea what the hell you would say.
It's a breakfast meat, for lackof a better word, it's like
kind of like mortadella, but you'dyou'd slice it. It's like thinner than
mortadella. It's more like like asmall salami like somewhere, not like the
(02:17):
big Deli salami, but like youknow, three inches four inches wide and
circumference, and you put it ona Taylor handmeg and cheese Spanish bagel,
You've hit it. Nerve because Inow I have seen it on menus and
I've had it now I realized it'sa breakfast ham and it's kind of like
(02:42):
a Canadian bacon moment. But it'syou know, New Jersey ins find it
to be something to defend. Andit's best served charred to bring out the
smokiness, isn't it. Yes.Absolutely. You have to cut three score
marks into the slice of ham,and then you see it in the skillet
and then it kind of shrivels upa little bit, but that's how you
(03:04):
cook it evenly and you get alittle jar on the edge and it's it's
perfect. I like it with maplesyrup, which is disgusting, but in
my opinion, delicious. Right.Probably you've got some cross contamination from the
French tost to the pancakes and yougot used to the flavor, right,
Yeah, exactly, I'm all aboutit. I should try I should try
(03:27):
to do something with bread and tailorham. Oh, you definitely should.
Like kind of like a lard breadmoment exactly. That's lark bread, by
the way, is my specialty.Oh my gosh, oh wow, we
can we can talk. I'm Italianand Jewish and from New Jersey, so
oh love it. I mean Italianlike breads and meats are a thing that
I could talk about for hours andhours and hours. Bread, yeah,
(03:53):
lard, bread and tailor ham.I really hope we do it. So
uh. Actually the other thing wejust made, we've made a lot of
them, well, the pizza Roostka. We used Virginia ham. But I
am developing a version of the pizzaRoosterica. And you know what it is,
(04:15):
I believe, I believe I do. It's a like a rigotta pie.
It's got several different cheeses. It'sgot like the it's like it's like
they're thick. Right, It's likea yeah, isn't it also called Easter
pie sometimes? Right? Exactly?Yeah. It was like, maybe I'm
gonna embarrass myself by thinking it's thewrong thing. But we are developing one
(04:38):
for a restaurant for breakfast, forlike a Keys, because it's very much
like a maybe we do the tailorham in there. I would like it.
That's so cool. So you doa lot of things. I also
do a lot of things. It'sthe best way I think to void boredom.
(05:00):
I constantly like, like this morning, I'm working on a new sandwich
bread that's similar to ficacia, andI saw your ficacia the other day look
pretty awesome, so I spent afew hours on that, so it's cooling.
Then go into this for an hour, and then I go back into
my television development for a couple hours. Then I'll go back to the bread
(05:24):
and try to create the sandwich andshoot some photos of it. Yep,
I like bouncing around. You gotyou gotta bounce on. I'm in the
process of test testing Thanksgiving recipes,so I've got my bread drying out for
stuffing, made the cranberry sauce,half the mashed potatoes, and then after
this we'll go finish the stuffing andprep the turkey. That's so cool,
So tell us why you're doing that. It is we're recording this in April.
(05:48):
It is April. It is seventyeight degrees in Brooklyn today, so
I really I really picked the bestpossible day to do it. I always
seem to test Thanksgiving recipes on likethe hottest days of the year, so
so I in food media Thanksgiving.You know, obviously Thanksgiving to November,
but it's kind of like the foodmedia Olympics, so it needs to happen
(06:12):
as early as possible to make surethat everything is you know, completely air
tight tested, developed, shot edited, you know, if you're working in
a magazine, printed at as earlyas possible so that you can forego any
calamities. But this is a littleearly. You usually Thanksgiving tends to happen
(06:34):
more in the summer, when it'seven hotter in New York. I'm actually
developing some recipes for for a cookbookright now, so it's it's very very
early. So that is why therecipe deadline is May is the middle of
May, so we gotta we gottaget to it. That's why it's this
early. There's a lot of informationon picking up in that response that I'd
(06:59):
like to try to unpack. Allright, First of all, the cookbook
recipes that you're developing, are theybeing developed for a cookbook of yours?
Are you helping someone out? Iam helping someone out. I'm working with
an author who has a book dealand she has, you know, just
incredible palette. You know, verywell versed in the world of food,
(07:23):
but is not a technical recipe developer. So in the world of cookbooks,
there are many different ways that youcan break down the work, and in
this particular iteration, I have beenbrought on as a recipe developer to kind
of see the author's vision come tolife in recipes that can actually be made
by home cooks. So an authorwould say, let's say, I don't
(07:49):
know what kind of food it is. I was trying to use me as
the analogy, but it might betoo difficult because it's very specifically to bread.
But are they coming to you withlike an idea and an area and
then you're you're coming up with likethe specifics this is we're breaking it down
into grams, the steps. Yeah, it kind of depends. I mean,
(08:09):
in this, in this particular iteration, the author and my process it's
been so so collaborative, which isreally great because sometimes you know, in
other collaborations they kind of just likeleave you to do whatever you want.
In the In this iteration, theauthor and I've really been you know,
sitting down, pouring over you know, for concepts, and it's like,
okay, you know, for example, Thanksgiving, since we're working on it,
(08:31):
you know, we have kind ofbeen doing it by recipe title.
And I think this has become kindof a trend in food media at all
the different brands that I pop aroundthat where you come up with a title
first, like something that sounds justlike so delicious and like I absolutely need
to make that, and then youkind of develop the recipe from there and
hope it hope it works. Imean, you know, you usually have
(08:54):
a pretty solid idea. You're notgoing to like, you know, put
turkey and I don't know, camerameal tea. I'm like looking at a
flower. You know it could work, but you know it's like a you
know, a crispy skinned buttered turkey. You know that kind of you go
from there, How do you makea recipe from crispy skinned buttered turkey and
(09:16):
so so? Has that always beenthe standard in terms of cookbook recipe development
or does that have to do withclickbait? Yeah, I mean, you
know, it's interesting. I'm actuallyI'm a little newer into the world of
cookbooks. I've primarily come from digital, which I think has been really really
helpful in terms of knowing what isactually successful with audiences, because you know,
(09:41):
book sales, you don't actually knowif people who buy the book are
cooking the recipes, Whereas I mean, I guess you don't know if someone
clicked on the recipe is making it. But I think you get a pretty
more clear snapshot like, oh,this this recipe page got so much traffic,
and it you know, got alot of traffic when we published it,
and then it got so much traffic, you know, two days before
(10:01):
Thanksgiving. Like we know that peopleare making that to cook it. And
we definitely found a lot of theplaces I've worked at, you know,
with really incredible you know, audiencedevelopment teams and SEO teams are really diving
into those trends to see what peopleare googling, and that has often dictated
what recipe titles become. And youknow, you see so many different trends
(10:24):
in terms of what recipe titles looklike. I mean, you know,
if you looked at a recipe fromtwo thousand and six, it would be
so different than a recipe nowt evenif the content itself is quite similar.
You'd probably in two thousand and sixsee like perfect mashed potatoes. Today you
would see like buttered mashed potatoes withcrispy crunchies or something like that. There's
(10:48):
a lot of adjectives, there's alot of like you can hear the recipe
in the title, and I thinkthat's because audiences have gotten a lot,
a lot more engaged with what thefood is. But yeah, it's interesting,
I mean, but people respond toit. It's interesting to me because
(11:09):
I've been I mean, first ofall, what we're discussing here is like
the A leagues of cookbook. Thisis very different than somebody saying, hey,
I've been a cook for a longtime, I'm going to do a
cookbook on my own. Like you'redealing with high end publishers. Yeah,
probably big money advances, probably booktours and books that are going to be
(11:33):
reviewed and sent out to major critics. And what we're hearing from you is
this is how it's done with theseteams, and this is one way to
do it. So the SEO stuffthat's more for digital food media. So
I kind of I'm working in twoworlds. I'm working in digital food media
and then I also do a bitof cookbook publishing work as well. But
(11:58):
they do overlap, right, theydo. I mean, there's so much
overlap for sure, for sure.So I've been helping a friend of mine
out with or let me put itthis way, without being asked, I
presented a deck with some recipe changes. Actually what I pitched to him was,
let's let's start doing a brunch becausethey're not using that that time period.
(12:22):
And you know, I'm very intofood. I'm very into talking to
like award winning pizza makers, andI've read the books. I have a
giant collection of these cookbooks that havecome out within the last few years.
So I could talk about the trendsin pizza and how pizza is so different.
But there are a lot of pizzaplaces that aren't staying up with the
(12:43):
times. They've been making great pizzafor forty years, but even the way
it's presented on the menu, likethe way you're talking about the headline or
the title of the recipe and thecookbook. I feel the great eight pizza
places for the most part doing thatin the title of the pizza. You
(13:05):
know, unless part of your hook. Pizzeria Bianco and Los Angeles is one
that's for the most but very simple, and that's the beauty of the place.
Like there's three sandwiches and there's onesalad and blah blah blah. But
you know, the title of theitem on the menu you have to be
thought about exactly. I mean,I think you could absolutely make that comparison
(13:28):
to restaurants, and I see thatmyself. You know again, if you
went to a restaurant in two thousandand six for nineteen eighty two, the
title like the same food could beserved today, but the menu item name
would be so different, and thedescription would be different. The way the
person would describe it would be sodifferent. The why made parrot would be
(13:50):
so different. And I think youcan absolutely draw that comparison to what's going
on in the world of food media. It's just it's so dictated by who
the audit is. And I thinkwe're seeing a lot of younger people learning
how to cook and becoming restaurants obsessed, and they are driving a lot of
the trends. And you know,you have to keep up with the trends
(14:13):
or you'll fall in mind. Whatcomes first, Like, is it trends
from digital, which I think itis. I think it is too it
is, right, Well, thenyou have to bring that that's what's going
to drive people to the restaurant,and then they need to feel like they're
having an experience at the restaurant.Oh and I mean with restaurants, I
actually think I think digital trends influencecookbooks for sure. I think restaurants influence
(14:37):
digital you do, I really do. I think what restaurants are doing today
you'll see published in digital food mediain two to seven months. Give me
an example, please, I mean, just like in terms of plating,
in terms of the way a dishis presented. Like I think when I
(14:58):
started out in food media quite awhile ago, the types of food was
what I had been eating in restaurants. So like today, for example,
something I'm thinking of that would neverhave been published on a food media website
eight years ago is like a reallycool small vegetable plate. Like it's like
(15:22):
a really beautiful piece of cauliflower andit's been like butter basted and maybe somebody
threw some anchovies in there, andit's just like half a cauliflower and it's
charred on the bottom and covered apile of herbs or maybe swushy like tahmi,
and then you put that on theplate and you serve it. Like,
(15:43):
I don't see that being published inlike Everyday Food, the Martha Start
magazine that I was reading when Iwas in high school or middle school or
whatever that was out. But todaythat would totally be published in a bout
epatie of food and wine, offood fifty two, you know, that
kind of platform, because that's whatrestaurants are serving, or at least that's
(16:06):
that's what I feel like restaurants wereserving like two years ago, and people
weren't home cooking that way. Ithink home cooks have gotten a lot more
advanced, or at least they arein you know, I'm a coastal person
that I see people, you know, I go to dinner parties at people's
houses and I'm like, Oh,you're just cooking like you're a restaurant,
(16:26):
right, And maybe that's not thecase in you know, other parts of
the country, but I really feellike I'm seeing and you know, it's
like, where'd you get that recipe? Like did you see the inspiration at
a restaurant? And they're like,oh, no, I saw it in
you know, X food publication orX cookbook. But I know that that
recipe developer used to work at arestaurant or you know, spend a lot
(16:48):
of time going out to restaurants whilethey're an editor at this food publication.
Do you think the first season ofChef's Table on Netflix was a game changer
in that it made these chefs rockstars, and the thought that because there
are a lot of chefs that don'toperate that way, they're just tradesmen,
(17:14):
right absolutely. I mean I grewup watching the Food Network, so they
were chefs were already kind of celebritiesto me, you know, like Rachel
Ray and Jada Bobby Flitt, likeI was, you know, I thought
they were celebrities. And I thinktoday we're like we're only seeing more of
that with you know, streaming television, like you know, salt Fat Heat
(17:34):
like it. I love that peoplewho have no idea what how to cook
a chicken know who Samin Nosread isbecause they loved watching her show on Netflix,
and that I think there's just there'sbeen such a democratization of cooking.
It's not like the spooky chef wearinga tall hat. It's like a person
(17:56):
out there talking to an all offarmer and you know, going home and
making forgotcha, thencritization, democratization,democracy, Yeah, sorry, I gotcha.
It wasn't that hard of a word. I gotcha. Sometimes I get
(18:18):
a little too. You're all goodman. So that covers a little bit
of recipe development. And but beforewe move off, to that topic.
You're mostly I'm guessing I don't know. I guess not. You're probably so
the one lane of recipe development isfor these cookbooks if someone comes to you,
(18:41):
but I guess you have to dothat for these digital platforms as well,
So you're developing recipes there, absolutely, Yeah, no, I yes,
I consider myself a freelance recipe developer. So obviously sometimes I'm lucky enough
to be you know, included ina project and that it's very exciting,
but that's a usually a pretty shortterm project. The bulk of my work
(19:04):
is absolutely digital recipe development and recipetesting and other work like that, which
we can talk more about it you'reinterested. But yes, definitely contribute to
across many types of platform that producerecipes. All right, so let's jump
to recipe testing in your case,why are you what are you testing a
(19:26):
recipe for? In your case?Sure, so, I guess it's helpful
to explain what recipe testing is,you know, for your listeners who may
not know. And it's sometimes thelanguage kind of overlaps on itself. So
like, for example, I thinkI said I'm testing Thanksgiving. I'm developing
these Thanksgiving recipes. I am creatingthose recipes myself. But eventually, after
(19:51):
I finish those recipes and I'm likethey're good to go, the next stage
would be for someone else to testthose developed recipes. When it's not my
recipe a but I've developed, Iam often a recipe tester. Sometimes they're
called a cross tester, and thatmeans that person that recipe tester is taking
(20:11):
a recipe that's been developed and youknow, hopefully it's been made more than
once by the recipe developer. Therecipe developer knows it works, but they
have made it in one kitchen theoretically, you know, on their you know,
electric burner, their gas burner,their super professional oven or they're like
teeny tiny Rickating Brooklyn oven that youknow they were timing it, but you
(20:34):
know, maybe they got distracted whilethey were developing. So it's my job
as the tester to make it ain a different kitchen. So what is
you know, does it still takefive to seven minutes for that sauce to
reduce on my stove or did ittake more like ten to twelve minutes on
my stove? Did the nuts actuallyturn a deeply golden brown in the time
(20:56):
that you said, or were theylike totally burnt by the time you said,
and so on and so forth.And I think that the mark of
a good recipe tester is someone whoknows enough about cooking to kind of catch
not necessarily mistakes, but to catch, you know, things that aren't quite
(21:17):
working and resolve the problem in themoment. It requires a lot of quick
thinking because you know, for example, like what if there's a typo,
you know, maybe the developer justlike a slip of a finger and they
wrote, you know, bake forsixty seven minutes instead of forty seven minutes.
It would be my job as therecipe tester not to bake it for
(21:37):
sixty seven minutes and be like,well, it burnt, it's wrong.
It would be my job to be, you know, really paying very close
attention, being like, you knowwhat, mine was actually quite done at
you know, forty seven minutes.You know, maybe you want to take
a look at that timing again.And you know, sometimes it's like,
oh wow, that was a typo, But sometimes it's also like, oh
wow, it really did take sixtyseven minutes in my oven. I think
(22:00):
we need to make it again andfind out where you know, diagnose the
problem here, like it is itthe oven temperature? Is that wrong?
Or is my oven broken? Youknow, it's it's a lot of It's
kind of like jazz in a way. It's like there's like fifteen different layers
going on at once. But yeah, I do a lot of recipe testing
(22:21):
for Yeah, well you might.You might have just almost gone to that
answer. Who who's hiring you todo it? Yeah? So I do
a lot of recipe testing for anumber of digital and publications, primarily Boni,
Petit, Epicurious, and Food fiftytwo and Kitchen as well. And
then I also do recipe testing forcookbooks. Wow, that's pretty cool man.
(22:47):
There's a lot of food moving inand out of the kitchen. Yeah,
and it's just your home kitchen.I am lucky enough when I'm testing
for Bona, Petite and Epicurious tobe working out of their test kitchen,
so I get you a little bitmore space to move around, but usually
for everyone else, and for thebooks, it's my home kitchen right over
there, see me, Denny.And you're also a food stylist, Yes,
(23:12):
I do a bit of food stylingas well, So tell us what
that is. So so food stylingis we're really just making the food you
see in photos, be that aphoto in a print magazine and a digital
publication or in a cookbook look nice. And that definition has alsode changed so
(23:33):
so much over the past many years. I mean again, it's like,
if you look at twenty thirty yearsago, it looked the food looked so
perfect. It was like, wehave to make sure that every single little
crowm is cleaned up and the frostingswoops exactly perfectly, and if there's a
fork, it needs to be veryclean. Today, I think people have
(23:55):
let go a little bit at leastan editorial. Commercial food styling work very
different, and I don't usually docommercial food styling work. I do more,
you know, styling and assistant stylingwork for editorial, which is it's
for home cooks. It should looklike it's going to look when you make
it yourself at home. I mean, you know, it'll look a little
(24:17):
nicer. There will be like,you know, the extra cute lettuce and
like, you know, the extrabeautiful like you know, soup of sour
cream. But for the most part, it's really about it's a it's a
I like to think of food stylingas another stage of information for a home
cook. But if you are thehead stylist, are you, I'm asking
(24:41):
all these questions are you? Areyou taking the photograph? Are you are
food from the beginning so that it'sthen presented and a professional photographer then comes
in. Yeah. So usually ona professional set, there is a food
stylist, usually a food stylists assistant, a prop stylist, maybe a prop
(25:03):
stylists assistant, and then that's thehair and makeup. That's that's the good
improp stylist, and then and thena professional photographer and so you know,
but then if it's me styling somethingat home, I'm the I'm doing all
of it. But officially, asa food stylist, you are only touching
the food. And oftentimes as thelead stylist, you're judging the food on
(25:27):
set, but your assistant is doingall the cooking, which is I think
where I got a lot of myexperience, because that's like kind of how
it works I imagine in the filmworld as well. Like you know,
you start out in the camera departmentand you're like lugging all the gear and
you're pressing buttons and you're moving thingsand you're cleaning things. But then by
the time you're like the DP,you're not really tough to me, you're
(25:48):
talking to the director. You're talkingto the director, and then you're taking
that information to the people that aregoing to do right. So so I
think that's pretty pretty comparable in thestyling world, particularly food styling, Like
as an assistant, I'm like atthe market at seven am, taking pictures
of lettuce, lugging it back inmy like little granny car, taking it
(26:10):
on the train or you know,a car if there's a nice budget,
and then taking it to the setand I'm cooking the food and then giving
it to the food stylist and theyare doing that final beautiful. And everyone
I've worked for has been a littlebit different. Some of the stylists I've
worked for are very hands on andthey want to be cooking right alongside you,
and then others are sort of likehand it to me when it's done,
(26:32):
and I think that, you know, it's I don't really think there's
any like I learned a lot morefrom the people that were like handed to
me when it's done, but it'sit's really just making. But I think
that that is all the more emphasison the fact that it is a person
cooking the food and that's its stylisttoo. Like the recipe developers rarely,
if ever even on set. Whywould you take a picture of the lettuce
(26:57):
at the market? Is it different? Yeah? Or is it to be
published later as one of the steps? No? No, so that would
be that would be part of likethe assistants work, like I'm sending that
photo to the food stylist, tothe stylist in advance to be like,
do we like this lettuce or areyou looking for something a little more like
(27:19):
darker green or do you want likea you know, if you're looking at
Ridikio, there's like fourteen different shadesof purple. It could be and it's
kind of it could really affect theway the photo looks, and you know,
the food stylist is like, well, I know the props are going
to be this, this, andthis, So you know, if we're
using a dark green tablecloth, maybewe don't want dark green lettuce. We
want like a lighter lettuce. Andso it's it's really as it's keeping it's
(27:44):
keeping your eye on a lot ofdifferent aspects, even if your main role
is the food. You're still thinkingabout the props, You're still thinking about
the lighting. Yeah, it's important. How do you think AI is going
to affect the future of food styling? Oh, my gosh, food styling,
I'm less worried about. I amvery worried about AI getting involved in
(28:07):
recipe writing. Okay, before wego there, because I have I take
my own photos for my bread company, and I struggle with the tone of
my photos and they're all over theplace. I don't have like you see
some of these food like Food fiftytwo. It's it's consistently pro and amazing,
(28:30):
and mine isn't. I could goout of my way and try to
do that all the time. Thattakes a lot of time, and quite
honestly, I'm a one man band, so I don't have it. But
recently I've been taking decent photos ofthe product and having AI create the background.
Wow, I don't know anything aboutthat. I'm so interested. I'm
(28:52):
like my partner spends a lot oftime messing around with he works. He
works in film, and his oftensometimes found it helpful when like storyboarding or
like sending examples like, like,you know, send me a photo of
a van in a field with youknow, two children. It's like used
to have to like see if thatwas on Getty or something, and now
(29:14):
you can you can put it intoAI right, Like that's casa. We
have a pitch that we're taken outas writers, and we wanted to put
an example of who we'd cast,and he would plead playing a little league
baseball coach. So we said TolferGrace as a little league baseball coach.
And it created it, and itcreated it and we use it WI It's
(29:36):
crazy, and we use it ina pitch deck. That's awesome. I
mean I can see that being soso helpful for pitch decks and for like
storyboarding, and that's where I dothink that that could be helpful. Like
even in the development process for me, sometimes I'll be sketching something out.
Actually, I like have an artbackground, so like that to me feels
(29:59):
very normal to be like sketching whatI want the plate to look like.
But if I didn't know how todraw, I don't know if that would
be like how I would get there. And I think a I could be
very helpful in that sense where you'relike, Okay, maybe I want to
lettuce on the side and I want, you know, chicken legs, or
do I want a whole roast chicken? And you can kind of look at
the two differences and see which platemight look nicer. I can see that
(30:22):
informan styling, but not necessarily replacingstyling exactly. I could see how your
art backgrounds it's all related to everythingyou do, even though it seems on
the surface that you're a food person. But it is all related, isn't
it? It is? It is. I mean, I like went to
(30:42):
Liberal Arts College, and I spenta lot of time writing. I was,
you know, I studied costume andscenic design and art history and I
am, you know, ostensibly doingnothing with that, but I'm not.
I'm using it all the time.I mean, college taught me how to
write. I spent so much timeI'm you know, thinking visually, and
that's what I do every day.I write and I think visually. So
(31:06):
I don't consider that anytime listed.But it is a it is a funny
fact that I am absolutely doing nothingwith my SOI machine. So how good
are you at art history? Imean, now, so much of art
history was our art history was halfmemorization and half reading comprehension, and so
(31:30):
I am not deeply immersed in readingart history theory right now, but I
have to say I have one ofmy one of my favorite art history texts,
Ways of Seeing, is on thetop of my cookbook pile over there,
because I do, I do lookback at it. So I'm going
to ask you a question, andI'd like you to answer it with a
question. All right, which popartist it's famous for tracing original advertisements and
(31:56):
then silk screening them onto canvas tocreate screen prints. Is that Andy Warhol?
Yeah? I took it from yourright ex y my thought, Oh
my gosh, that was one ofmy That was one of my first freelance
food media pieces. Thank god youdidn't get it wrong. I took it
(32:17):
right now. That's really I waslike, I've heard this before. I
think it's actually that really cool pictureof a Hamburger. Yes, I do
remember that. That was that wasa real treat for me. And you
know, I think I made gosh, I think I made seventy five dollars
on it, and I probably spenttwenty five hours like developing like six different
(32:40):
recipes and pouring my hurt and soulinto like a probably a you know,
seven hundred word piece, and it'shilarious that that is just not the way
for the media works anymore. ButI really loved that piece. That's like,
I love it too. To me, I actually love it. I
mean, you love it, probablybecause it helped launch to do, but
you know, I thought it wasreally cool. I actually learn keep things
(33:04):
from it, So thank you.I'm glad. That's what I always hope
to do when I do a featurelike that. I wanted to mean something.
I don't want to just put morewords out onto the internet for the
sake of putting words out onto theInternet. I kind of wanted to do
a little bit more so. Iwas really into music in high school.
(33:25):
My father was a musician, andI just blindly kept going down a path.
In college, I studied business andmusic, not knowing what I could
do as a career. Everyone Iwas surrounded by people that wanted to be
music teachers, and I didn't wantthat, and I was kind of scared,
(33:45):
but not overly scared, and littleby little, one thing led to
another. By twenty five, Iwas entrenched in working with stand up comedians.
But again I didn't even know thatwas a business. Yeah. I
felt the same way about food.I didn't know what food media was.
Food media was like, I don'teven know if food media was a term
(34:07):
people were using ten years ago andlike fifteen years ago when I was applying
to college, like they're like,I'll meet people today and they were like,
I'm a food media major at NYU. But like, if only I'd
known that that were a thing,But it wasn't a thing when I was
going to college. It was likethe bug sphere was like just starting out,
(34:30):
I would argue, world, youwere better off not knowing. Yeah,
I do. I actually, youknow, hindsight is twenty twenty,
and you know, I'll meet someonewho is, like, you know,
a food media major at NYU andhas like eight billion followers on TikTok and
two cookbook deals, and I'm like, we're But at the same time,
I think I had such a foundationin another world and it really just taught
(34:57):
me so much that I, youknow, am not using every day,
but also am and I think thatI'm you know, I think I'm doing
just for my Everyone has imposters syndrome. But I learned, I learned so
much about what I wanted to doby not studying it in school. And
if I had been a food mediamajor writing essays about food media when I
(35:22):
was in college, I might havebeen like, I don't want to do
this. And maybe that's everybody kindof has to figure out, you know,
do what they don't want to dobefore they figure out what they want
to do. But for me,at least, I think it was it
was very helpful to you know,be giving tours at the Smith College Museum
of Art and thinking I was goingto go, like, work in the
(35:43):
costume department, it's met and thendiscover this kind of unfamiliar and newly versioning
world of you know, to usethe term food blogs very lightly, it
was. It was a new ventureand I was very drawn to it,
and you know, started my ownfood blog and kind of used that as
(36:04):
a way to get experience because Ididn't have you know, fancy magazine internships
when I was in college. Iwrote on my food blog and I you
know, worked other jobs and thenyou did a food blog while you were
in college. I did. Idid. Yeah, that was kind of
how I got my start. Iwas very like, very self taught.
I you know, grew up cooking. I you know, worked very minimally
(36:29):
and poorly as like a barista anda cafe and you know, but I
don't have proper formal restaurant training.I ended up when I started working in
food media, I was lucky enoughto be offered a professional development stipe end
at a company that was working forfull time. So I went to the
ICC at night and did culinary techniques, which is kind of like the first
(36:53):
level of culinary school. It's likenot as expensive as full blown culinary school,
but I learned, you know,like kind of the introduction to French
culinary techniques. And then most ofmy work has still been just kind of
me obsessing over it at home andthat pouring over cookbooks and really learning from
(37:16):
other like established cookbook authors. Well, once you're in the field, you're
able to network right mentors and peopleand you're going to you're going to learn.
I've been so grateful to work withI mean many, many super talented
people, but to work very closelywith a handful of people in this industry
(37:37):
who are so so talented and haveyou know, given me opportunities to make
my own further connections. And that'swhy I always like to talk to people
who might reach out to me abouthow to make it in food media,
because I wouldn't be where I amtoday if other people hadn't answered my cold
emails and given me a shot,because I didn't have any other connections in
(38:00):
this industry. And this is avery very relationships based, connection based industry.
I mean, like you could makeyou could make that argument for any
industry, but I think a lotof food media is like, oh,
my buddy knows how to do that, so I'm going to hire them,
which makes perfect sense. But it'svery hard to break in if you're not
like a TikTok celebrity. I guess, oh, okay. I mean I
(38:23):
think you are playing at the inthe major leagues of food and and just
like in film and TV, majorleagues, you know, it's it's all
hard to break in. It is, it is, there's a certain level.
I do often think that if Iwent to film school, I don't
know what would happen. I'm notsaying I wouldn't have done anything, but
(38:45):
like, because I didn't know whatI didn't know, I just ended up
in this weird path. My musicpast led me to representing musicians and then
comedians, which led me into filmand TV. Now I kind of beautiful.
Yeah, if I went to filmschool, I think I would have
like got a production assistant job ona film set, and my life would
(39:07):
be completely different. And also totallythere's nothing wrong with big going to film
school at all. Yeah, Butthen a lot of the people that have
the same mindset of all right,we're going to compete for those production assistant
jobs, right, And that's exactlywhat I would say to anyone who's like,
oh, should I go to culinaryschool, I'm like, if you
can afford it and you have thetime, why not. But also there
(39:29):
are a million other different ways tomake it if your end goal is working
in food media, Like if yourgoal is being a recipe developer, I
don't think you need to go toculinary school. I think there are you
can go to culinary school and ifyou you know, if it's if it's
in your if it's in your PERVIEO, go for it. But it's not
the only way to be successful forsure. The one you went to was
(39:53):
a six month program? Is thatthe one? Yes? I believe so,
yeah, And it was you know, it was just incredible. Well
that you know, the company thatI worked for sadly ended up going under
because they ran out of money,but they did offer wonderful professional development classes
to their employee as while we wereemployed aunt of money, they were out
(40:15):
of money. So, you know, whatever, it's a I'm very grateful
for it, even if it didn'treally even if it doesn't show the best
business acumen. Yeah, man,I feel like I could talk to you
forever, but I'm going to aska couple more questions. So, in
terms of making food on a budget, you gotta have balance. I think
(40:37):
health and nutrition along with the eyecandy or are you going mostly with eye
candy? And and can you talkus through an example of one recipe on
a budget that you love. Sure, So I'm so glad you brought up
cooking on a budget. It's veryimportant to me. It's you know,
(40:57):
there's I'm certainly not the first todo budget recipes, but I think I
go about them a little bit differentlythan you know. I'm going to Costco
and I'm shopping for the cheapest thatof ground beef that I can find and
take it home to feed my sevenchildren. I don't I'm not that way.
I live I live in a householdof too. We don't have children.
(41:20):
It's just it's just me and Ihave, you know, a fairly
refined palate. You know, Ilike to eat good food. So when
I think about budget cooking, Iwas very frustrated when I was googling,
like, you know, cheap recipeswhen I was, you know, living
on my own on a budget inNew York, which is very expensive and
even more expensive now, and Iwanted to eat the food that I was
eating at restaurants, but I couldn'tafford to spend you know, seventeen dollars
(41:44):
on a plate of cabbage, muchas I would love to because it's delicious.
So I but cabbage is a veryinexpensive ingredient. And you know,
obviously at a restaurant, you're payingfor the staff, you're paying for the
rent of the restaurant. Blah bityblah. There's like nothing wrong with that.
However, if you're on a budget, I like to approach recipes a
(42:05):
little bit like you know, cool, using scare quotes, and I often
have found that that means cooking vegetarian. So you brought up you brought up
health and nutrition. I really govery back and forth, and if we
had another two and a half hours, I would go off on a tangent
about you know, diet culture andfood media, but that's not what we're
here to do. But I wouldsay that by nature of vegetarian cooking,
(42:30):
it's often just as nutritionally dense asa recipe with meat, but it's a
lot cheaper. So you know,the recipe that immediately popped into my head
when you said give me an example, so I had to call them at
Food fifty two called nickel and dimewhen I was an editor there, and
it was all about making dinner forfour people for ten dollars or less.
(42:51):
And so the one that immediately poppedinto my head is being scampi, which
is kind of it's not on yourlist, that was one of my favorites,
if I hope you make it andlet me know what you think.
So that is treating beans like bigbeans, like butter beans or put it
aren't they called oh my god,they're called corona beans like which is very
(43:15):
fun at like spooky covid words,but just giant beans. Treating those beans
or any other white bean really likea shrimp. So like if you're familiar
with shrimp scampy. It's you know, oftentimes it's shrimp cooked in a very
garlicee buttery e sauce and often servedover pasta with a lot of parsley.
(43:36):
And so the way that I didit for my nickel and dine Holm is
I cooked a pound of beans,dry beans, which are already like canned
beans, are already a cheap ingredient. Dry beans are even cheaper, and
if you have the time, youknow, sometimes it takes a little bit
longer to cook dry beans, butyou can soak them in advance, like
soak them on you're at work,and then come back and cook them.
We'll take about an hour. Itis so cool if you cook these big
(44:00):
beans with so much garlic and saltand olive oil, they cook down into
a really flavorful broth that really seasonsthe beans and kind of acts like that
expensive wine. Used white wine vinegarinstead of white wine, which is you
know, cheaper and you always haveit in the pantry, and then those
(44:22):
beans kind of act like little shrimp. And shrimp is like a million dollars
a pound in Brooklyn, it's maybemore like maybe more like twenty seven dollars
a pound, but beans are liketwo dollars a pound, and there's a
lot more in a pound of beansthan a pound of shrimp. And that
recipe tastes like shrimp scampy. Imean, obviously not exactly like shrimp scampy,
(44:44):
but is like I think seven oreight dollars you pasta over pasta,
yep, a pound of lingreini,and that's quite quite hefty, but it's
very it's very delicious, and itis you know, you feel good when
you eat it. That's all I'mgoing for. I wonder if I could
do a bean pall boy. Youshould try that. That would be so
(45:09):
good. I'm actually looking for avegetarian sandwich to present. I also really
like I did it. If youwant to look at another vegetarian sandwich.
I did a recipe for food fiftytwo quite a while ago with tofu.
It's called tofu steak sandwich, andyou freeze the tofu and when you freeze
(45:30):
tofu, it totally changes in texture. It gets kind of chewy like meat,
and it's a pretty cool vib Doyou have a work with satan Sometimes
sometimes I do. I am stillrecovering from a terrible dining hall related Satan
related in called Yes, I was. I mean, it was very lucky
(45:52):
to have a vegan and vegetarian dininghall on campus. But bless their hearts,
they you know, weren't doing thebest work with you know, they
were doing the best that they coulddo. But it was really just one
of the most unpleasant Satan experiences I'veever had. I know that Satan is
delicious, Still not over this awfulmeal I once had, so I tend
(46:15):
to do more with tofu and beans. Got it a little trauma there,
vegetarian trauma. All right, We'llwrap it up with this question. Can
you tell me what is one ofyour most memorable meals, who you were
with, what you had, andwhy it was so memorable. Oh,
(46:37):
that's a great question. You know, I would probably take it back to
Taylor Ham. I grew up at. My mom cooked a lot of our
meals growing up, even though sheworked a full time job and was very
busy, but it was very importantto her to like either make us breakfast
(46:59):
or make us dinner, if notboth, like usually it with one of
the other She's had a lot todo. But one of our specialties was
Taylor Ham and sharp cheddar cheese onan English muffin, and I would just
eat that with my mom and mysister, and that was probably like when
(47:20):
we would have like really just likeI don't even think we realized how special
it was at the time, butI think that really formed all of like
it it was spoke to all ofus loving food, and even if we
didn't really talk what you know,we were grunty, it was the morning
whatever. We just still have theability to sit down and eat breakfast together
(47:42):
and it's a nice little community moment. And I think that I still think
of that today as one of myfavorite ways to be with a person is
just to kind of share a meal, even if you're not you know,
having the most fantastic conversation in theentire world, even if you're just like
eating Taylor ham and cheese sandwiches.It's just a great way to connect with
(48:05):
someone. Agreed. Agreed, Ishould change the podcast name to Bread with
the People. I like that.I like that a lot set for the
people. But anyway, Yeah,it's been such a pleasure to meet you
and talk to you. You too, Maybe we could do it again,
because I do feel like I couldtalk to you forever. Thank you so
(48:27):
much. It was great to chatwith you. Likewise, this episode of
Bread for the People was brought toyou by Side Hustle Bread, Long Island's
handcrafted, artisanal bread company. SideHustle Bread is a family run business that's
bringing the neighborhood feel back to LongIsland, one loaf at a time.
If you like what you're hearing,don't forget to head on over ty tunes
(48:47):
and rate and review this episode.Reviewing and rating is the most effective way
to help us grow our audience.This episode was produced by Milestone TV and
Film. I'm your host Jim Surperco. Lessed be the Bread. Everyone,
The following episode of Bread for thePeople is brought to you by Side Hustle
Bread, Long Island's handcrafted, artisanalbread company. Side Hustle Bread is a
family run virtual bakery that's bringing theneighborhood feel back to Long Island, one
loaf at a time. Head onover to side Hustlebread dot com for more
information, upcoming appearances and merchandise.My name's Jim Curpico. And this should
(00:23):
I start with my name? Orshould I start with this? Is Bread
for the People. Do you likeit like this? Welcome to bread?
Or do you like it like this? Welcome? Ready, Welcome to Bread
for the People? Mind fuck?Is there a script for the people?
(00:48):
Welcome to Bread for the People.I'm Jim Curproico, my guest today is
a Brooklyn based writer, recipe developer, and food stylist. She specializes or
likes to help people make recipes ona budget. Please welcome Rebecca Ferk,
Sir, thank you for having mebead to be here. How to rehearse
(01:11):
the firk I did? You dida great job. Everybody everybody tends to
mess it up where we're still notsure pay and ask are just never next
to each other in words, Isuppose, but you did a beautiful job.
I appreciate it came out right thefirst time, because even though I
practiced saying it many times, whileI transpose the letters, I have to
(01:34):
start with this. What is TaylorHam and what would it be used for?
I'm so glad you started with this. So I'm from New Jersey.
I'm from northern New Jersey specifically,and Taylor Ham is is the brand of
Taylor pork Roll. If you're inSellar, New Jersey, you'd say pork
(01:56):
roll. If you're in Northern NewJersey, you'd say Taylor Ham. If
you're in Central Jersey. I haveno idea what the hell you would say.
It's a breakfast meat, for lackof a better word, it's like
kind of like mortadella, but you'dyou'd slice it. It's like thinner than
mortadella. It's more like like asmall salami like somewhere, not like the
(02:17):
big Deli salami, but like youknow, three inches four inches wide and
circumference, and you put it ona Taylor handmeg and cheese Spanish bagel,
You've hit it. Nerve because Inow I have seen it on menus and
I've had it now I realized it'sa breakfast ham and it's kind of like
(02:42):
a Canadian bacon moment. But it'syou know, New Jersey ins find it
to be something to defend. Andit's best served charred to bring out the
smokiness, isn't it. Yes.Absolutely. You have to cut three score
marks into the slice of ham,and then you see it in the skillet
and then it kind of shrivels upa little bit, but that's how you
(03:04):
cook it evenly and you get alittle jar on the edge and it's it's
perfect. I like it with maplesyrup, which is disgusting, but in
my opinion, delicious. Right.Probably you've got some cross contamination from the
French tost to the pancakes and yougot used to the flavor, right,
Yeah, exactly, I'm all aboutit. I should try I should try
(03:27):
to do something with bread and tailorham. Oh, you definitely should.
Like kind of like a lard breadmoment exactly. That's lark bread, by
the way, is my specialty.Oh my gosh, oh wow, we
can we can talk. I'm Italianand Jewish and from New Jersey, so
oh love it. I mean Italianlike breads and meats are a thing that
I could talk about for hours andhours and hours. Bread, yeah,
(03:53):
lard, bread and tailor ham.I really hope we do it. So
uh. Actually the other thing wejust made, we've made a lot of
them, well, the pizza Roostka. We used Virginia ham. But I
am developing a version of the pizzaRoosterica. And you know what it is,
(04:15):
I believe, I believe I do. It's a like a rigotta pie.
It's got several different cheeses. It'sgot like the it's like it's like
they're thick. Right, It's likea yeah, isn't it also called Easter
pie sometimes? Right? Exactly?Yeah. It was like, maybe I'm
gonna embarrass myself by thinking it's thewrong thing. But we are developing one
(04:38):
for a restaurant for breakfast, forlike a Keys, because it's very much
like a maybe we do the tailorham in there. I would like it.
That's so cool. So you doa lot of things. I also
do a lot of things. It'sthe best way I think to void boredom.
(05:00):
I constantly like, like this morning, I'm working on a new sandwich
bread that's similar to ficacia, andI saw your ficacia the other day look
pretty awesome, so I spent afew hours on that, so it's cooling.
Then go into this for an hour, and then I go back into
my television development for a couple hours. Then I'll go back to the bread
(05:24):
and try to create the sandwich andshoot some photos of it. Yep,
I like bouncing around. You gotyou gotta bounce on. I'm in the
process of test testing Thanksgiving recipes,so I've got my bread drying out for
stuffing, made the cranberry sauce,half the mashed potatoes, and then after
this we'll go finish the stuffing andprep the turkey. That's so cool,
So tell us why you're doing that. It is we're recording this in April.
(05:48):
It is April. It is seventyeight degrees in Brooklyn today, so
I really I really picked the bestpossible day to do it. I always
seem to test Thanksgiving recipes on likethe hottest days of the year, so
so I in food media Thanksgiving.You know, obviously Thanksgiving to November,
but it's kind of like the foodmedia Olympics, so it needs to happen
(06:12):
as early as possible to make surethat everything is you know, completely air
tight tested, developed, shot edited, you know, if you're working in
a magazine, printed at as earlyas possible so that you can forego any
calamities. But this is a littleearly. You usually Thanksgiving tends to happen
(06:34):
more in the summer, when it'seven hotter in New York. I'm actually
developing some recipes for for a cookbookright now, so it's it's very very
early. So that is why therecipe deadline is May is the middle of
May, so we gotta we gottaget to it. That's why it's this
early. There's a lot of informationon picking up in that response that I'd
(06:59):
like to try to unpack. Allright, First of all, the cookbook
recipes that you're developing, are theybeing developed for a cookbook of yours?
Are you helping someone out? Iam helping someone out. I'm working with
an author who has a book dealand she has, you know, just
incredible palette. You know, verywell versed in the world of food,
(07:23):
but is not a technical recipe developer. So in the world of cookbooks,
there are many different ways that youcan break down the work, and in
this particular iteration, I have beenbrought on as a recipe developer to kind
of see the author's vision come tolife in recipes that can actually be made
by home cooks. So an authorwould say, let's say, I don't
(07:49):
know what kind of food it is. I was trying to use me as
the analogy, but it might betoo difficult because it's very specifically to bread.
But are they coming to you withlike an idea and an area and
then you're you're coming up with likethe specifics this is we're breaking it down
into grams, the steps. Yeah, it kind of depends. I mean,
(08:09):
in this, in this particular iteration, the author and my process it's
been so so collaborative, which isreally great because sometimes you know, in
other collaborations they kind of just likeleave you to do whatever you want.
In the In this iteration, theauthor and I've really been you know,
sitting down, pouring over you know, for concepts, and it's like,
okay, you know, for example, Thanksgiving, since we're working on it,
(08:31):
you know, we have kind ofbeen doing it by recipe title.
And I think this has become kindof a trend in food media at all
the different brands that I pop aroundthat where you come up with a title
first, like something that sounds justlike so delicious and like I absolutely need
to make that, and then youkind of develop the recipe from there and
hope it hope it works. Imean, you know, you usually have
(08:54):
a pretty solid idea. You're notgoing to like, you know, put
turkey and I don't know, camerameal tea. I'm like looking at a
flower. You know it could work, but you know it's like a you
know, a crispy skinned buttered turkey. You know that kind of you go
from there, How do you makea recipe from crispy skinned buttered turkey and
(09:16):
so so? Has that always beenthe standard in terms of cookbook recipe development
or does that have to do withclickbait? Yeah, I mean, you
know, it's interesting. I'm actuallyI'm a little newer into the world of
cookbooks. I've primarily come from digital, which I think has been really really
helpful in terms of knowing what isactually successful with audiences, because you know,
(09:41):
book sales, you don't actually knowif people who buy the book are
cooking the recipes, Whereas I mean, I guess you don't know if someone
clicked on the recipe is making it. But I think you get a pretty
more clear snapshot like, oh,this this recipe page got so much traffic,
and it you know, got alot of traffic when we published it,
and then it got so much traffic, you know, two days before
(10:01):
Thanksgiving. Like we know that peopleare making that to cook it. And
we definitely found a lot of theplaces I've worked at, you know,
with really incredible you know, audiencedevelopment teams and SEO teams are really diving
into those trends to see what peopleare googling, and that has often dictated
what recipe titles become. And youknow, you see so many different trends
(10:24):
in terms of what recipe titles looklike. I mean, you know,
if you looked at a recipe fromtwo thousand and six, it would be
so different than a recipe nowt evenif the content itself is quite similar.
You'd probably in two thousand and sixsee like perfect mashed potatoes. Today you
would see like buttered mashed potatoes withcrispy crunchies or something like that. There's
(10:48):
a lot of adjectives, there's alot of like you can hear the recipe
in the title, and I thinkthat's because audiences have gotten a lot,
a lot more engaged with what thefood is. But yeah, it's interesting,
I mean, but people respond toit. It's interesting to me because
(11:09):
I've been I mean, first ofall, what we're discussing here is like
the A leagues of cookbook. Thisis very different than somebody saying, hey,
I've been a cook for a longtime, I'm going to do a
cookbook on my own. Like you'redealing with high end publishers. Yeah,
probably big money advances, probably booktours and books that are going to be
(11:33):
reviewed and sent out to major critics. And what we're hearing from you is
this is how it's done with theseteams, and this is one way to
do it. So the SEO stuffthat's more for digital food media. So
I kind of I'm working in twoworlds. I'm working in digital food media
and then I also do a bitof cookbook publishing work as well. But
(11:58):
they do overlap, right, theydo. I mean, there's so much
overlap for sure, for sure.So I've been helping a friend of mine
out with or let me put itthis way, without being asked, I
presented a deck with some recipe changes. Actually what I pitched to him was,
let's let's start doing a brunch becausethey're not using that that time period.
(12:22):
And you know, I'm very intofood. I'm very into talking to
like award winning pizza makers, andI've read the books. I have a
giant collection of these cookbooks that havecome out within the last few years.
So I could talk about the trendsin pizza and how pizza is so different.
But there are a lot of pizzaplaces that aren't staying up with the
(12:43):
times. They've been making great pizzafor forty years, but even the way
it's presented on the menu, likethe way you're talking about the headline or
the title of the recipe and thecookbook. I feel the great eight pizza
places for the most part doing thatin the title of the pizza. You
(13:05):
know, unless part of your hook. Pizzeria Bianco and Los Angeles is one
that's for the most but very simple, and that's the beauty of the place.
Like there's three sandwiches and there's onesalad and blah blah blah. But
you know, the title of theitem on the menu you have to be
thought about exactly. I mean,I think you could absolutely make that comparison
(13:28):
to restaurants, and I see thatmyself. You know again, if you
went to a restaurant in two thousandand six for nineteen eighty two, the
title like the same food could beserved today, but the menu item name
would be so different, and thedescription would be different. The way the
person would describe it would be sodifferent. The why made parrot would be
(13:50):
so different. And I think youcan absolutely draw that comparison to what's going
on in the world of food media. It's just it's so dictated by who
the audit is. And I thinkwe're seeing a lot of younger people learning
how to cook and becoming restaurants obsessed, and they are driving a lot of
the trends. And you know,you have to keep up with the trends
(14:13):
or you'll fall in mind. Whatcomes first, Like, is it trends
from digital, which I think itis. I think it is too it
is, right, Well, thenyou have to bring that that's what's going
to drive people to the restaurant,and then they need to feel like they're
having an experience at the restaurant.Oh and I mean with restaurants, I
actually think I think digital trends influencecookbooks for sure. I think restaurants influence
(14:37):
digital you do, I really do. I think what restaurants are doing today
you'll see published in digital food mediain two to seven months. Give me
an example, please, I mean, just like in terms of plating,
in terms of the way a dishis presented. Like I think when I
(14:58):
started out in food media quite awhile ago, the types of food was
what I had been eating in restaurants. So like today, for example,
something I'm thinking of that would neverhave been published on a food media website
eight years ago is like a reallycool small vegetable plate. Like it's like
(15:22):
a really beautiful piece of cauliflower andit's been like butter basted and maybe somebody
threw some anchovies in there, andit's just like half a cauliflower and it's
charred on the bottom and covered apile of herbs or maybe swushy like tahmi,
and then you put that on theplate and you serve it. Like,
(15:43):
I don't see that being published inlike Everyday Food, the Martha Start
magazine that I was reading when Iwas in high school or middle school or
whatever that was out. But todaythat would totally be published in a bout
epatie of food and wine, offood fifty two, you know, that
kind of platform, because that's whatrestaurants are serving, or at least that's
(16:06):
that's what I feel like restaurants wereserving like two years ago, and people
weren't home cooking that way. Ithink home cooks have gotten a lot more
advanced, or at least they arein you know, I'm a coastal person
that I see people, you know, I go to dinner parties at people's
houses and I'm like, Oh,you're just cooking like you're a restaurant,
(16:26):
right, And maybe that's not thecase in you know, other parts of
the country, but I really feellike I'm seeing and you know, it's
like, where'd you get that recipe? Like did you see the inspiration at
a restaurant? And they're like,oh, no, I saw it in
you know, X food publication orX cookbook. But I know that that
recipe developer used to work at arestaurant or you know, spend a lot
(16:48):
of time going out to restaurants whilethey're an editor at this food publication.
Do you think the first season ofChef's Table on Netflix was a game changer
in that it made these chefs rockstars, and the thought that because there
are a lot of chefs that don'toperate that way, they're just tradesmen,
(17:14):
right absolutely. I mean I grewup watching the Food Network, so they
were chefs were already kind of celebritiesto me, you know, like Rachel
Ray and Jada Bobby Flitt, likeI was, you know, I thought
they were celebrities. And I thinktoday we're like we're only seeing more of
that with you know, streaming television, like you know, salt Fat Heat
(17:34):
like it. I love that peoplewho have no idea what how to cook
a chicken know who Samin Nosread isbecause they loved watching her show on Netflix,
and that I think there's just there'sbeen such a democratization of cooking.
It's not like the spooky chef wearinga tall hat. It's like a person
(17:56):
out there talking to an all offarmer and you know, going home and
making forgotcha, thencritization, democratization,democracy, Yeah, sorry, I gotcha.
It wasn't that hard of a word. I gotcha. Sometimes I get
(18:18):
a little too. You're all goodman. So that covers a little bit
of recipe development. And but beforewe move off, to that topic.
You're mostly I'm guessing I don't know. I guess not. You're probably so
the one lane of recipe development isfor these cookbooks if someone comes to you,
(18:41):
but I guess you have to dothat for these digital platforms as well,
So you're developing recipes there, absolutely, Yeah, no, I yes,
I consider myself a freelance recipe developer. So obviously sometimes I'm lucky enough
to be you know, included ina project and that it's very exciting,
but that's a usually a pretty shortterm project. The bulk of my work
(19:04):
is absolutely digital recipe development and recipetesting and other work like that, which
we can talk more about it you'reinterested. But yes, definitely contribute to
across many types of platform that producerecipes. All right, so let's jump
to recipe testing in your case,why are you what are you testing a
(19:26):
recipe for? In your case?Sure, so, I guess it's helpful
to explain what recipe testing is,you know, for your listeners who may
not know. And it's sometimes thelanguage kind of overlaps on itself. So
like, for example, I thinkI said I'm testing Thanksgiving. I'm developing
these Thanksgiving recipes. I am creatingthose recipes myself. But eventually, after
(19:51):
I finish those recipes and I'm likethey're good to go, the next stage
would be for someone else to testthose developed recipes. When it's not my
recipe a but I've developed, Iam often a recipe tester. Sometimes they're
called a cross tester, and thatmeans that person that recipe tester is taking
(20:11):
a recipe that's been developed and youknow, hopefully it's been made more than
once by the recipe developer. Therecipe developer knows it works, but they
have made it in one kitchen theoretically, you know, on their you know,
electric burner, their gas burner,their super professional oven or they're like
teeny tiny Rickating Brooklyn oven that youknow they were timing it, but you
(20:34):
know, maybe they got distracted whilethey were developing. So it's my job
as the tester to make it ain a different kitchen. So what is
you know, does it still takefive to seven minutes for that sauce to
reduce on my stove or did ittake more like ten to twelve minutes on
my stove? Did the nuts actuallyturn a deeply golden brown in the time
(20:56):
that you said, or were theylike totally burnt by the time you said,
and so on and so forth.And I think that the mark of
a good recipe tester is someone whoknows enough about cooking to kind of catch
not necessarily mistakes, but to catch, you know, things that aren't quite
(21:17):
working and resolve the problem in themoment. It requires a lot of quick
thinking because you know, for example, like what if there's a typo,
you know, maybe the developer justlike a slip of a finger and they
wrote, you know, bake forsixty seven minutes instead of forty seven minutes.
It would be my job as therecipe tester not to bake it for
(21:37):
sixty seven minutes and be like,well, it burnt, it's wrong.
It would be my job to be, you know, really paying very close
attention, being like, you knowwhat, mine was actually quite done at
you know, forty seven minutes.You know, maybe you want to take
a look at that timing again.And you know, sometimes it's like,
oh wow, that was a typo, But sometimes it's also like, oh
wow, it really did take sixtyseven minutes in my oven. I think
(22:00):
we need to make it again andfind out where you know, diagnose the
problem here, like it is itthe oven temperature? Is that wrong?
Or is my oven broken? Youknow, it's it's a lot of It's
kind of like jazz in a way. It's like there's like fifteen different layers
going on at once. But yeah, I do a lot of recipe testing
(22:21):
for Yeah, well you might.You might have just almost gone to that
answer. Who who's hiring you todo it? Yeah? So I do
a lot of recipe testing for anumber of digital and publications, primarily Boni,
Petit, Epicurious, and Food fiftytwo and Kitchen as well. And
then I also do recipe testing forcookbooks. Wow, that's pretty cool man.
(22:47):
There's a lot of food moving inand out of the kitchen. Yeah,
and it's just your home kitchen.I am lucky enough when I'm testing
for Bona, Petite and Epicurious tobe working out of their test kitchen,
so I get you a little bitmore space to move around, but usually
for everyone else, and for thebooks, it's my home kitchen right over
there, see me, Denny.And you're also a food stylist, Yes,
(23:12):
I do a bit of food stylingas well, So tell us what
that is. So so food stylingis we're really just making the food you
see in photos, be that aphoto in a print magazine and a digital
publication or in a cookbook look nice. And that definition has alsode changed so
(23:33):
so much over the past many years. I mean again, it's like,
if you look at twenty thirty yearsago, it looked the food looked so
perfect. It was like, wehave to make sure that every single little
crowm is cleaned up and the frostingswoops exactly perfectly, and if there's a
fork, it needs to be veryclean. Today, I think people have
(23:55):
let go a little bit at leastan editorial. Commercial food styling work very
different, and I don't usually docommercial food styling work. I do more,
you know, styling and assistant stylingwork for editorial, which is it's
for home cooks. It should looklike it's going to look when you make
it yourself at home. I mean, you know, it'll look a little
(24:17):
nicer. There will be like,you know, the extra cute lettuce and
like, you know, the extrabeautiful like you know, soup of sour
cream. But for the most part, it's really about it's a it's a
I like to think of food stylingas another stage of information for a home
cook. But if you are thehead stylist, are you, I'm asking
(24:41):
all these questions are you? Areyou taking the photograph? Are you are
food from the beginning so that it'sthen presented and a professional photographer then comes
in. Yeah. So usually ona professional set, there is a food
stylist, usually a food stylists assistant, a prop stylist, maybe a prop
(25:03):
stylists assistant, and then that's thehair and makeup. That's that's the good
improp stylist, and then and thena professional photographer and so you know,
but then if it's me styling somethingat home, I'm the I'm doing all
of it. But officially, asa food stylist, you are only touching
the food. And oftentimes as thelead stylist, you're judging the food on
(25:27):
set, but your assistant is doingall the cooking, which is I think
where I got a lot of myexperience, because that's like kind of how
it works I imagine in the filmworld as well. Like you know,
you start out in the camera departmentand you're like lugging all the gear and
you're pressing buttons and you're moving thingsand you're cleaning things. But then by
the time you're like the DP,you're not really tough to me, you're
(25:48):
talking to the director. You're talkingto the director, and then you're taking
that information to the people that aregoing to do right. So so I
think that's pretty pretty comparable in thestyling world, particularly food styling, Like
as an assistant, I'm like atthe market at seven am, taking pictures
of lettuce, lugging it back inmy like little granny car, taking it
(26:10):
on the train or you know,a car if there's a nice budget,
and then taking it to the setand I'm cooking the food and then giving
it to the food stylist and theyare doing that final beautiful. And everyone
I've worked for has been a littlebit different. Some of the stylists I've
worked for are very hands on andthey want to be cooking right alongside you,
and then others are sort of likehand it to me when it's done,
(26:32):
and I think that, you know, it's I don't really think there's
any like I learned a lot morefrom the people that were like handed to
me when it's done, but it'sit's really just making. But I think
that that is all the more emphasison the fact that it is a person
cooking the food and that's its stylisttoo. Like the recipe developers rarely,
if ever even on set. Whywould you take a picture of the lettuce
(26:57):
at the market? Is it different? Yeah? Or is it to be
published later as one of the steps? No? No, so that would
be that would be part of likethe assistants work, like I'm sending that
photo to the food stylist, tothe stylist in advance to be like,
do we like this lettuce or areyou looking for something a little more like
(27:19):
darker green or do you want likea you know, if you're looking at
Ridikio, there's like fourteen different shadesof purple. It could be and it's
kind of it could really affect theway the photo looks, and you know,
the food stylist is like, well, I know the props are going
to be this, this, andthis, So you know, if we're
using a dark green tablecloth, maybewe don't want dark green lettuce. We
want like a lighter lettuce. Andso it's it's really as it's keeping it's
(27:44):
keeping your eye on a lot ofdifferent aspects, even if your main role
is the food. You're still thinkingabout the props, You're still thinking about
the lighting. Yeah, it's important. How do you think AI is going
to affect the future of food styling? Oh, my gosh, food styling,
I'm less worried about. I amvery worried about AI getting involved in
(28:07):
recipe writing. Okay, before wego there, because I have I take
my own photos for my bread company, and I struggle with the tone of
my photos and they're all over theplace. I don't have like you see
some of these food like Food fiftytwo. It's it's consistently pro and amazing,
(28:30):
and mine isn't. I could goout of my way and try to
do that all the time. Thattakes a lot of time, and quite
honestly, I'm a one man band, so I don't have it. But
recently I've been taking decent photos ofthe product and having AI create the background.
Wow, I don't know anything aboutthat. I'm so interested. I'm
(28:52):
like my partner spends a lot oftime messing around with he works. He
works in film, and his oftensometimes found it helpful when like storyboarding or
like sending examples like, like,you know, send me a photo of
a van in a field with youknow, two children. It's like used
to have to like see if thatwas on Getty or something, and now
(29:14):
you can you can put it intoAI right, Like that's casa. We
have a pitch that we're taken outas writers, and we wanted to put
an example of who we'd cast,and he would plead playing a little league
baseball coach. So we said TolferGrace as a little league baseball coach.
And it created it, and itcreated it and we use it WI It's
(29:36):
crazy, and we use it ina pitch deck. That's awesome. I
mean I can see that being soso helpful for pitch decks and for like
storyboarding, and that's where I dothink that that could be helpful. Like
even in the development process for me, sometimes I'll be sketching something out.
Actually, I like have an artbackground, so like that to me feels
(29:59):
very normal to be like sketching whatI want the plate to look like.
But if I didn't know how todraw, I don't know if that would
be like how I would get there. And I think a I could be
very helpful in that sense where you'relike, Okay, maybe I want to
lettuce on the side and I want, you know, chicken legs, or
do I want a whole roast chicken? And you can kind of look at
the two differences and see which platemight look nicer. I can see that
(30:22):
informan styling, but not necessarily replacingstyling exactly. I could see how your
art backgrounds it's all related to everythingyou do, even though it seems on
the surface that you're a food person. But it is all related, isn't
it? It is? It is. I mean, I like went to
(30:42):
Liberal Arts College, and I spenta lot of time writing. I was,
you know, I studied costume andscenic design and art history and I
am, you know, ostensibly doingnothing with that, but I'm not.
I'm using it all the time.I mean, college taught me how to
write. I spent so much timeI'm you know, thinking visually, and
that's what I do every day.I write and I think visually. So
(31:06):
I don't consider that anytime listed.But it is a it is a funny
fact that I am absolutely doing nothingwith my SOI machine. So how good
are you at art history? Imean, now, so much of art
history was our art history was halfmemorization and half reading comprehension, and so
(31:30):
I am not deeply immersed in readingart history theory right now, but I
have to say I have one ofmy one of my favorite art history texts,
Ways of Seeing, is on thetop of my cookbook pile over there,
because I do, I do lookback at it. So I'm going
to ask you a question, andI'd like you to answer it with a
question. All right, which popartist it's famous for tracing original advertisements and
(31:56):
then silk screening them onto canvas tocreate screen prints. Is that Andy Warhol?
Yeah? I took it from yourright ex y my thought, Oh
my gosh, that was one ofmy That was one of my first freelance
food media pieces. Thank god youdidn't get it wrong. I took it
(32:17):
right now. That's really I waslike, I've heard this before. I
think it's actually that really cool pictureof a Hamburger. Yes, I do
remember that. That was that wasa real treat for me. And you
know, I think I made gosh, I think I made seventy five dollars
on it, and I probably spenttwenty five hours like developing like six different
(32:40):
recipes and pouring my hurt and soulinto like a probably a you know,
seven hundred word piece, and it'shilarious that that is just not the way
for the media works anymore. ButI really loved that piece. That's like,
I love it too. To me, I actually love it. I
mean, you love it, probablybecause it helped launch to do, but
you know, I thought it wasreally cool. I actually learn keep things
(33:04):
from it, So thank you.I'm glad. That's what I always hope
to do when I do a featurelike that. I wanted to mean something.
I don't want to just put morewords out onto the internet for the
sake of putting words out onto theInternet. I kind of wanted to do
a little bit more so. Iwas really into music in high school.
(33:25):
My father was a musician, andI just blindly kept going down a path.
In college, I studied business andmusic, not knowing what I could
do as a career. Everyone Iwas surrounded by people that wanted to be
music teachers, and I didn't wantthat, and I was kind of scared,
(33:45):
but not overly scared, and littleby little, one thing led to
another. By twenty five, Iwas entrenched in working with stand up comedians.
But again I didn't even know thatwas a business. Yeah. I
felt the same way about food.I didn't know what food media was.
Food media was like, I don'teven know if food media was a term
(34:07):
people were using ten years ago andlike fifteen years ago when I was applying
to college, like they're like,I'll meet people today and they were like,
I'm a food media major at NYU. But like, if only I'd
known that that were a thing,But it wasn't a thing when I was
going to college. It was likethe bug sphere was like just starting out,
(34:30):
I would argue, world, youwere better off not knowing. Yeah,
I do. I actually, youknow, hindsight is twenty twenty,
and you know, I'll meet someonewho is, like, you know,
a food media major at NYU andhas like eight billion followers on TikTok and
two cookbook deals, and I'm like, we're But at the same time,
I think I had such a foundationin another world and it really just taught
(34:57):
me so much that I, youknow, am not using every day,
but also am and I think thatI'm you know, I think I'm doing
just for my Everyone has imposters syndrome. But I learned, I learned so
much about what I wanted to doby not studying it in school. And
if I had been a food mediamajor writing essays about food media when I
(35:22):
was in college, I might havebeen like, I don't want to do
this. And maybe that's everybody kindof has to figure out, you know,
do what they don't want to dobefore they figure out what they want
to do. But for me,at least, I think it was it
was very helpful to you know,be giving tours at the Smith College Museum
of Art and thinking I was goingto go, like, work in the
(35:43):
costume department, it's met and thendiscover this kind of unfamiliar and newly versioning
world of you know, to usethe term food blogs very lightly, it
was. It was a new ventureand I was very drawn to it,
and you know, started my ownfood blog and kind of used that as
(36:04):
a way to get experience because Ididn't have you know, fancy magazine internships
when I was in college. Iwrote on my food blog and I you
know, worked other jobs and thenyou did a food blog while you were
in college. I did. Idid. Yeah, that was kind of
how I got my start. Iwas very like, very self taught.
I you know, grew up cooking. I you know, worked very minimally
(36:29):
and poorly as like a barista anda cafe and you know, but I
don't have proper formal restaurant training.I ended up when I started working in
food media, I was lucky enoughto be offered a professional development stipe end
at a company that was working forfull time. So I went to the
ICC at night and did culinary techniques, which is kind of like the first
(36:53):
level of culinary school. It's likenot as expensive as full blown culinary school,
but I learned, you know,like kind of the introduction to French
culinary techniques. And then most ofmy work has still been just kind of
me obsessing over it at home andthat pouring over cookbooks and really learning from
(37:16):
other like established cookbook authors. Well, once you're in the field, you're
able to network right mentors and peopleand you're going to you're going to learn.
I've been so grateful to work withI mean many, many super talented
people, but to work very closelywith a handful of people in this industry
(37:37):
who are so so talented and haveyou know, given me opportunities to make
my own further connections. And that'swhy I always like to talk to people
who might reach out to me abouthow to make it in food media,
because I wouldn't be where I amtoday if other people hadn't answered my cold
emails and given me a shot,because I didn't have any other connections in
(38:00):
this industry. And this is avery very relationships based, connection based industry.
I mean, like you could makeyou could make that argument for any
industry, but I think a lotof food media is like, oh,
my buddy knows how to do that, so I'm going to hire them,
which makes perfect sense. But it'svery hard to break in if you're not
like a TikTok celebrity. I guess, oh, okay. I mean I
(38:23):
think you are playing at the inthe major leagues of food and and just
like in film and TV, majorleagues, you know, it's it's all
hard to break in. It is, it is, there's a certain level.
I do often think that if Iwent to film school, I don't
know what would happen. I'm notsaying I wouldn't have done anything, but
(38:45):
like, because I didn't know whatI didn't know, I just ended up
in this weird path. My musicpast led me to representing musicians and then
comedians, which led me into filmand TV. Now I kind of beautiful.
Yeah, if I went to filmschool, I think I would have
like got a production assistant job ona film set, and my life would
(39:07):
be completely different. And also totallythere's nothing wrong with big going to film
school at all. Yeah, Butthen a lot of the people that have
the same mindset of all right,we're going to compete for those production assistant
jobs, right, And that's exactlywhat I would say to anyone who's like,
oh, should I go to culinaryschool, I'm like, if you
can afford it and you have thetime, why not. But also there
(39:29):
are a million other different ways tomake it if your end goal is working
in food media, Like if yourgoal is being a recipe developer, I
don't think you need to go toculinary school. I think there are you
can go to culinary school and ifyou you know, if it's if it's
in your if it's in your PERVIEO, go for it. But it's not
the only way to be successful forsure. The one you went to was
(39:53):
a six month program? Is thatthe one? Yes? I believe so,
yeah, And it was you know, it was just incredible. Well
that you know, the company thatI worked for sadly ended up going under
because they ran out of money,but they did offer wonderful professional development classes
to their employee as while we wereemployed aunt of money, they were out
(40:15):
of money. So, you know, whatever, it's a I'm very grateful
for it, even if it didn'treally even if it doesn't show the best
business acumen. Yeah, man,I feel like I could talk to you
forever, but I'm going to aska couple more questions. So, in
terms of making food on a budget, you gotta have balance. I think
(40:37):
health and nutrition along with the eyecandy or are you going mostly with eye
candy? And and can you talkus through an example of one recipe on
a budget that you love. Sure, So I'm so glad you brought up
cooking on a budget. It's veryimportant to me. It's you know,
(40:57):
there's I'm certainly not the first todo budget recipes, but I think I
go about them a little bit differentlythan you know. I'm going to Costco
and I'm shopping for the cheapest thatof ground beef that I can find and
take it home to feed my sevenchildren. I don't I'm not that way.
I live I live in a householdof too. We don't have children.
(41:20):
It's just it's just me and Ihave, you know, a fairly
refined palate. You know, Ilike to eat good food. So when
I think about budget cooking, Iwas very frustrated when I was googling,
like, you know, cheap recipeswhen I was, you know, living
on my own on a budget inNew York, which is very expensive and
even more expensive now, and Iwanted to eat the food that I was
eating at restaurants, but I couldn'tafford to spend you know, seventeen dollars
(41:44):
on a plate of cabbage, muchas I would love to because it's delicious.
So I but cabbage is a veryinexpensive ingredient. And you know,
obviously at a restaurant, you're payingfor the staff, you're paying for the
rent of the restaurant. Blah bityblah. There's like nothing wrong with that.
However, if you're on a budget, I like to approach recipes a
(42:05):
little bit like you know, cool, using scare quotes, and I often
have found that that means cooking vegetarian. So you brought up you brought up
health and nutrition. I really govery back and forth, and if we
had another two and a half hours, I would go off on a tangent
about you know, diet culture andfood media, but that's not what we're
here to do. But I wouldsay that by nature of vegetarian cooking,
(42:30):
it's often just as nutritionally dense asa recipe with meat, but it's a
lot cheaper. So you know,the recipe that immediately popped into my head
when you said give me an example, so I had to call them at
Food fifty two called nickel and dimewhen I was an editor there, and
it was all about making dinner forfour people for ten dollars or less.
(42:51):
And so the one that immediately poppedinto my head is being scampi, which
is kind of it's not on yourlist, that was one of my favorites,
if I hope you make it andlet me know what you think.
So that is treating beans like bigbeans, like butter beans or put it
aren't they called oh my god,they're called corona beans like which is very
(43:15):
fun at like spooky covid words,but just giant beans. Treating those beans
or any other white bean really likea shrimp. So like if you're familiar
with shrimp scampy. It's you know, oftentimes it's shrimp cooked in a very
garlicee buttery e sauce and often servedover pasta with a lot of parsley.
(43:36):
And so the way that I didit for my nickel and dine Holm is
I cooked a pound of beans,dry beans, which are already like canned
beans, are already a cheap ingredient. Dry beans are even cheaper, and
if you have the time, youknow, sometimes it takes a little bit
longer to cook dry beans, butyou can soak them in advance, like
soak them on you're at work,and then come back and cook them.
We'll take about an hour. Itis so cool if you cook these big
(44:00):
beans with so much garlic and saltand olive oil, they cook down into
a really flavorful broth that really seasonsthe beans and kind of acts like that
expensive wine. Used white wine vinegarinstead of white wine, which is you
know, cheaper and you always haveit in the pantry, and then those
(44:22):
beans kind of act like little shrimp. And shrimp is like a million dollars
a pound in Brooklyn, it's maybemore like maybe more like twenty seven dollars
a pound, but beans are liketwo dollars a pound, and there's a
lot more in a pound of beansthan a pound of shrimp. And that
recipe tastes like shrimp scampy. Imean, obviously not exactly like shrimp scampy,
(44:44):
but is like I think seven oreight dollars you pasta over pasta,
yep, a pound of lingreini,and that's quite quite hefty, but it's
very it's very delicious, and itis you know, you feel good when
you eat it. That's all I'mgoing for. I wonder if I could
do a bean pall boy. Youshould try that. That would be so
(45:09):
good. I'm actually looking for avegetarian sandwich to present. I also really
like I did it. If youwant to look at another vegetarian sandwich.
I did a recipe for food fiftytwo quite a while ago with tofu.
It's called tofu steak sandwich, andyou freeze the tofu and when you freeze
(45:30):
tofu, it totally changes in texture. It gets kind of chewy like meat,
and it's a pretty cool vib Doyou have a work with satan Sometimes
sometimes I do. I am stillrecovering from a terrible dining hall related Satan
related in called Yes, I was. I mean, it was very lucky
(45:52):
to have a vegan and vegetarian dininghall on campus. But bless their hearts,
they you know, weren't doing thebest work with you know, they
were doing the best that they coulddo. But it was really just one
of the most unpleasant Satan experiences I'veever had. I know that Satan is
delicious, Still not over this awfulmeal I once had, so I tend
(46:15):
to do more with tofu and beans. Got it a little trauma there,
vegetarian trauma. All right, We'llwrap it up with this question. Can
you tell me what is one ofyour most memorable meals, who you were
with, what you had, andwhy it was so memorable. Oh,
(46:37):
that's a great question. You know, I would probably take it back to
Taylor Ham. I grew up at. My mom cooked a lot of our
meals growing up, even though sheworked a full time job and was very
busy, but it was very importantto her to like either make us breakfast
(46:59):
or make us dinner, if notboth, like usually it with one of
the other She's had a lot todo. But one of our specialties was
Taylor Ham and sharp cheddar cheese onan English muffin, and I would just
eat that with my mom and mysister, and that was probably like when
(47:20):
we would have like really just likeI don't even think we realized how special
it was at the time, butI think that really formed all of like
it it was spoke to all ofus loving food, and even if we
didn't really talk what you know,we were grunty, it was the morning
whatever. We just still have theability to sit down and eat breakfast together
(47:42):
and it's a nice little community moment. And I think that I still think
of that today as one of myfavorite ways to be with a person is
just to kind of share a meal, even if you're not you know,
having the most fantastic conversation in theentire world, even if you're just like
eating Taylor ham and cheese sandwiches.It's just a great way to connect with
(48:05):
someone. Agreed. Agreed, Ishould change the podcast name to Bread with
the People. I like that.I like that a lot set for the
people. But anyway, Yeah,it's been such a pleasure to meet you
and talk to you. You too, Maybe we could do it again,
because I do feel like I couldtalk to you forever. Thank you so
(48:27):
much. It was great to chatwith you. Likewise, this episode of
Bread for the People was brought toyou by Side Hustle Bread, Long Island's
handcrafted, artisanal bread company. SideHustle Bread is a family run business that's
bringing the neighborhood feel back to LongIsland, one loaf at a time.
If you like what you're hearing,don't forget to head on over ty tunes
(48:47):
and rate and review this episode.Reviewing and rating is the most effective way
to help us grow our audience.This episode was produced by Milestone TV and
Film. I'm your host Jim Surperco. Lessed be the Bread. Everyone,
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