December 28, 2024 • 17 mins
This episode confronts the complex question of whether Christians can support abortion, arguing the necessity of understanding both the human and unborn experience. The discussion navigates emotional factors, moral implications, and differing perspectives within the Christian community while emphasizing a compassionate but firm pro-life stance.
• Discussion on whether Christians should support abortion
• Exploration of the emotional experiences of women who have had abortions
• Consideration of differing Christian perspectives on abortion
• Debate on empathy in relation to the well-being of both women and unborn children
• Importance of distinguishing between personal beliefs and morality
• Issues relating to leadership in discussing abortion
• Examination of societal pressures affecting women's decisions about abortion
• The role of informed choices in discussions surrounding abortion
• The significance of unconditional love while standing firm against abortion policies
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everybody, welcome to another edition of the
Jordan and Kristen Rickardspodcast.
Today's topic should Christianssupport abortion.
Because I figured we'd startout the new year 2025 with
something nice and easy,non-controversial, just to kind
of ease our way into the newyear like this.
So, kristen, why don't we startwith you?
Tell us what you think.
Should Christians supportabortion?
Go right ahead.
(00:20):
Why or why not?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Well, right before we , even right off the bat, I just
want to say one thing If youare a woman who has had an
abortion, god loves you and Ibelieve that abortion is wrong,
but you are loved and you arecared for and God has a future
and a hope for you and there isforgiveness.
And I know that a lot of womenwho have had abortions say that
(00:48):
there's a lot of differentmental health issues that come
with that and pain that theyfeel that they can never escape
because it's such a horriblething that just kind of haunts
them.
This is what I've heard fromwomen who have had abortions.
But I just want you to knowthat there is hope for you to be
able to live a life withoutshame, without feeling that
weight on you, and God has thatfor you in your future.
(01:11):
So I just want to say thatright off the bat.
But, as you can tell from what Ijust said, in my opinion, yes,
abortion is not something thatChristians should be supporting,
and I thought that this waskind of a black and white issue.
I always thought and heardgrowing up in church that
(01:31):
abortion was wrong and I thoughtthat everyone felt the same
thing until actually just about24 hours ago, where I looked for
a chart that I had seen thattalks about how many abortions
were performed and how manybabies were lost by way of
abortion versus how many peopledied in different wars, and it
(01:53):
was just a huge, huge chasm ofdifference.
And so I was looking for thatchart and all of a sudden, I saw
all these articles pop up aboutpeople who are Christian who
actually support abortion, andthat really took me back for a
second.
I couldn't even believe thatthat was something that was even
a discussion, to be honest.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Well, I think the argument they would make and you
and I both have friends who areChristians and who support
abortion I think the argumentthey would make is they are
showing empathy to a woman whofinds herself in a difficult
situation right, and I wouldnever tell anybody to be less
empathetic, but I think it'sactually a failure of empathy
when you don't show the sameempathy to the child who you're
(02:38):
killing.
I mean, that's what it is.
Look, this is 2025.
Now we can't pretend to beagnostic about this.
We know where babies come from.
We understand what the lifecontinuum is.
We understand what's happeninginside of a womb, and the fact
that you just can't see it andit can be done with surgical
precision and kind of you know,behind closed doors to a child
who you've never met before, itdoesn't change what's actually
(02:59):
happening, all right.
So let me start with that.
Now I do want to read to yousomething I brought this up
before the show that I wrote onmy Facebook page, because I was
trying to reconcile how this,how I, how I can have so many
friends who are franklypro-abortion even though they
wouldn't call themselves that,but they are and yet I know them
to be good people.
So here's what I wrote.
(03:20):
I want you to tell me what youthink about this, all right.
Know them to be good people, sohere's what I wrote.
I want you to tell me what youthink about this, all right.
So I wrote this.
I wrote I'm as pro-life as theycome.
I have many friends,republicans and Democrats alike,
who are not, because I knowthem to be good people.
They would not be my friendsotherwise.
I refuse to attribute theirdisagreement on this extremely
sensitive and important issue tosome sort of depravity or
villainy on their part.
(03:40):
I believe abortion is the takingof an innocent human life,
because a baby is clearly allthree of those things innocent,
human and a life.
There can't be any seriousdoubt about any of that.
But I do not believe that everyperson who refuses to oppose
abortion is evil, even thoughabortion is itself evil, because
sometimes people overthinkthings and sometimes they
underthink them, and sometimesthey're just coming from a
different place in life, and I'mwrong, too, about some things,
(04:03):
and when I am, it's not becausemy heart is in the wrong place,
it's because people are humanand nobody's perfect, and
sometimes we can't see theforest for the trees, and I
mentioned that mine is anadversarial position, a
profession being a lawyer, andI'm designed for that.
But as I get older, I find it'sbest to think the best of
people, especially those youknow to be, and understand that
good people often disagree onmatters of right and wrong for
(04:25):
reasons other than wickedness,even when what's right seems so
obvious and all of us get wrongfrom time to time things that in
hindsight are obviously right.
Okay.
So I'm not going soft here.
I'm trying to give people thebenefit of the doubt, but I'm
also trying to draw adistinction here between
condemning the person andcondemning the practice.
So plenty of food for thoughtthere, kristen.
(04:46):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Well, it's interesting that you bring up
this kind of viewpoint, becausewe don't fight against flesh and
blood and sometimes when we seesomething so obvious, we tend
to want to get really angry atthe person.
But I do have to tell you, Istart to see these articles that
these people have written andthey make me angry.
(05:09):
And I have to watch not to getangry at the person because I
think and I like to think thebest of people.
I do think, like you said,they're trying not to alienate
people, they're trying to bereally inclusive, but the
problem with that is what theyare saying is evil.
So I'm going to be very strongon this and say for people who
(05:32):
are in leadership or in any typeof leadership that are saying
softly and sweetly, you know,like those serpent kind of
things that the enemy is usingas seeds to draw people in,
because people see that and thenthey think, okay, abortion is
okay.
I saw one that a woman wrotethat she believes that God knows
(05:58):
who's going to have an abortion, so because he knows that he
chooses not to put a soul intothose cells, so it's okay to
have an abortion.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Well, that's just the most asinine thing.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
So this is what I'm talking about.
The line needs to be drawn.
I'm not saying that we yell andscream at people.
Maybe that's not the rightapproach and it just depends
what you're called to do.
But I do get this firing up ofjustice when I'm seeing some of
these articles out there or justpeople just being wishy-washy
(06:30):
on the whole thing.
There needs to be a line in thesand.
So I'm going to be a littlemore firm than you on this issue
and say, no, the people are notevil per se, maybe.
Maybe some of them are, butmaybe their heart is in the
right place, but they just don'tknow and they're confused.
So let's not be mad at them,but let's be mad and war against
(06:54):
the enemy.
Who is trying to do thistakeover in a sneaky, subtle way
and say this needs to stop.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Oh, let me be clear.
I'm not saying there are notgenuinely evil people on the
side of the abortion debate.
On the abortion side of theabortion debate, I mean, I think
about Cecil Richards, who wasthe outgoing CEO of Planned
Parenthood, and the new one,alexis McGill Johnson, and I
remember hearing the first oneof those speak and just thinking
(07:23):
this woman is pure evil.
She reminded me, actuallythere's a scene in Dante's
Inferno which I know is inscripture, but it's a good book
anyway and in Dante's Infernothere's these circles of hell
and they get worse as they goalong for the worst people.
And in one of the later circlesyou see souls in hell who have
not even died yet.
Their bodies are still alive,but they're so evil that their
(07:44):
souls have been taken to hellalready.
And I know that's notscriptural and that's not
literally what's happening, butthat's like the level of evil
with those people, thecompletely, completely awful,
soulless human beings.
And I don't want to say thatthey're irredeemably evil,
because I don't believe anythingis beyond Christ's redemption,
but unrepentantly andunequivocally evil.
And, by the way, let's not losesight of the fact that those
(08:08):
are people who make tons ofmoney on abortion too.
Abortion is a big industry.
Go look at the salaries ofthese Planned Parenthood people
half a million dollars and above.
Go, look, I mean, these peopleare making more than the
president and acting likethey're Martin Luther King Jr
here or something, leading thecivil rights marches.
You know like we're fightingfor.
You know for desegregation?
That's the other thing.
How it's gone from being itused to be.
(08:30):
It used to be.
People would say well, you know, I don't personally believe in
abortion, but you know, I don'tthink I should impose my views
on women.
And now, you see, I'll just sayit, with the Democrats this
past year really doubling itthat abortion was being hailed
as a good thing.
It's not just a matter of awoman's right or women's health,
it's a good thing to happen,and anyone who opposes it is bad
(08:51):
.
I mean, the world is totallytopsy-turvy, and so what I would
say is you know, quotingEphesians 4.15, we are exhorted
always to speak truth in love.
Right, and you can speak truth,but not in love, which is what
I'm saying we don't do.
Okay, speak truth tenaciouslyand speak it in love, but that
doesn't mean that you can't callout for what it is.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
It is, and you know I was thinking about speaking of
that love.
You know there are places thathave ministries for women who
have had an abortions and I wantto stress that again.
I think people confuse this,this whole thing about getting
on the abortion issue.
When we get on the issue andsay this is wrong, it needs to
stop, we're also advocating forthe right of the unborn, but
(09:34):
we're advocating for the painthat these women have to go
through that have had this doneto them.
I'm telling you, I know womenwho, many women who have said to
me that they didn't want this,they didn't want this and they
sat in that room and took thatpill while their parents and
they were over 18, looked atthem until they swallowed the
(09:55):
pill or they have such traumaticexperiences and I'm telling you
.
And then I have a friend who isa nurse who says you don't even
want to know I can't even say it, it's too graphic what they do
to the body parts of fetusesafter for these abortions.
She said I was like eh, on theabortion issue, but when I
became a nurse and I saw whatwas happening, I was truly my
(10:19):
stomach was turned and I becamean advocate for pro-life.
So that's the thing here.
We're not just advocating,we're advocating for unborn
babies, male and female, andthose future daughters.
And you know we're alsoadvocating for the women who've
gone through these painful,terrible experiences.
(10:39):
Really, you know people sayabout the choice, the freedom to
choose, a lot of these womenhave been coerced into this and
it's against their will.
And even if it is their freewill, they have been kind of,
you know, prodded into thatthought line and then they
regret it and there's no goingback.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
That's true, but a lot of women don't regret it.
A lot of women just do it.
It's interesting thing aboutthe free will is there's free
will in terms of this is what Iwant.
But then the next question aswell is informed free will, and
what you'll notice is that a lotof the abortionists what
they'll do is they'll try toprevent women from getting
access to the information theywould need to make an informed
decision.
For example, there are certainlaws that say, well, before you
(11:20):
have an abortion, you need tolook at the ultrasound, and a
lot of people oppose thatbecause they don't want women to
see what they're doing.
All right, well, look, let'sreturn, wrapping this up, to the
original question Can somebodybe a Christian and support
abortion?
So I'll go first here and youtell me what you think.
I suppose you can be aChristian in that you accept
(11:41):
Christ and you believe in theresurrection and all that sort
of stuff, and have the contraryview, that you also support
abortion.
But you have to understandyou're on not only the wrong
side of Christianity, you'rewrong morally and ethically and
intellectually, and you don'teven have to be a Christian.
I know that we're running aministry here and this topic.
(12:01):
We've couched it deliberatelyin terms of can a Christian
support abortion?
But you don't have to be aChristian to oppose abortion.
I mean, there is a perfectlycoherent argument that says look
on the side of science, we knowwhat a baby is and you're
obviously killing a baby, andkilling a baby is obviously
wrong and you don't have to be aChristian or a theist of any
(12:23):
kind to believe in that.
So my answer is can a Christiansupport abortion or support
this sort of you know one footin, one foot out position of?
I oppose abortion, but I don'tthink the government should be
involved.
I suppose you can if youunderstand that you're on the
wrong side of the issue, morally, ethically, scientifically and
(12:44):
in terms of Christianity, andyou know where that leaves you.
I don't really know.
I don't know why you'd want tobe deliberately wrong about
something from every singleangle.
And if the idea is that youthink that this is the
empathetic thing to do, then Ican show you you can still be
empathetic to these women whilenot doing the most unempathetic
(13:05):
thing possible and advocatingfor the killing of the child.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
You know, at some point you have to say it's like
can a Christian do this and bethis?
There's a technicality ofsomeone can gun somebody down
and kill them and then all of asudden realize what they've done
and say Jesus, forgive me of mysin, and accept Jesus and go to
heaven.
That's the power of the gospel.
But there's a repentance thereand a realization and then they
(13:34):
become a Christian.
Can a person be a Christian,accept Jesus, go, gun the person
down and then say God, forgiveme what I did?
Well, yeah, there's going to beconsequences, like serious
consequences, but yes, butthey're not.
A double-minded man is unstablein all his ways.
So my question to you would beif you support abortion, you
(13:55):
know only God can judge.
I'm not God.
I can't judge and say are you aChristian?
Are you going to heaven?
That's not my place to judge.
At the very least, you'remisguided.
I'm sorry, but it's like howcan you believe in this and
believe in Jesus at the sametime?
It's contradictory.
It's a double-minded man, isunstable in all his ways and
(14:18):
that's just.
I'm sorry if I'm being a bitharsh on this, but I just feel
like it's like it's not.
It's not.
This is just the way it is.
It's not harsh.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
It's not harsh and it's a difficult question for
the theological, the, the moral,ethical, scientific and and
legal questions to me are easyto answer.
Okay, where it becomes harsh isand there's perhaps a broader
discussion here that we can havesome of the time is at what
point are you so wrong aboutsomething and you've been so
vocal in support of that thingthat you're you're advocating on
the side of evil and thatyou're, at that point,
(14:47):
compromising your salvation?
And I don't know the answer toto that I think it's best just
to.
I mean, how the heck you couldsay look, this is very simple,
there's a very simple filterhere.
Okay, you want to be aChristian, you want to live a
Christian life and a good life,you want true enlightenment.
It's very simple.
What would Jesus do?
Do you think Jesus wouldsupport an abortion?
(15:11):
And if you even saying thosewords, it sounds so patently
ridiculous to me.
Blasphemous of the Holy Spirit,whatever it is, it's just so
patently ridiculous.
If the answer is no, jesuswould not support abortion
because Jesus is all-knowing andall-loving then what defect is
there in your thinking?
Are you less than all-knowingor less than all-liking?
All-liking, all-loving it hasto be one of those things.
(15:32):
So I don't know that you go tolook, I'm not the Pope here, not
that I'm a Catholic, but youknow, I'm not here to tell
somebody, if you are a Christianand you believe in abortion,
you're going to hell.
But I am absolutely saying thatif you are a Christian and you
believe that that supportingabortion is constant with your
faith, then there's been,there's been a failure of
thought somewhere in the process.
How about that?
That's?
That's as charitably as I canput it.
All right, kristen, before Istart to really go off here, why
(15:57):
don't you pray us out?
All right?
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Okay.
Well, jesus, I pray that theveil will be lifted off of eyes,
and it's not just the abortionissue, it's other issues, lord,
whether it be in the church orjust subtle little things that
the enemy tries to get an inroadAgain.
We're not mad at the people,lord, even though we are in our
flesh sometimes and we tend toget fired up.
(16:21):
God, we're mad and we should berighteous anger at the enemy,
what the enemy is trying to do,and we want to take that stand,
we want to draw that line in thesand and say no more.
And we pray for revival in thisnation.
We pray for eyes to be openedand repentant hearts, God, and
we don't come here saying thatwe're holier and mightier than
(16:42):
now.
And what have you, god?
We say Lord, show us the thingsin our hearts, god, that need
to be corrected.
God, and I pray for each andevery one of us, lord, to just
have loving open arms and thatthe people who have gone through
this would see Jesus in us andthat your kingdom would come to
(17:02):
this earth.
In Jesus' name.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Amen, all right guys.
Thanks for joining us.
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Bye.
Hi everybody, welcome to another edition of the
Jordan and Kristen Rickardspodcast.
Today's topic should Christianssupport abortion.
Because I figured we'd startout the new year 2025 with
something nice and easy,non-controversial, just to kind
of ease our way into the newyear like this.
So, kristen, why don't we startwith you?
Tell us what you think.
Should Christians supportabortion?
Go right ahead.
(00:20):
Why or why not?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Well, right before we , even right off the bat, I just
want to say one thing If youare a woman who has had an
abortion, god loves you and Ibelieve that abortion is wrong,
but you are loved and you arecared for and God has a future
and a hope for you and there isforgiveness.
And I know that a lot of womenwho have had abortions say that
(00:48):
there's a lot of differentmental health issues that come
with that and pain that theyfeel that they can never escape
because it's such a horriblething that just kind of haunts
them.
This is what I've heard fromwomen who have had abortions.
But I just want you to knowthat there is hope for you to be
able to live a life withoutshame, without feeling that
weight on you, and God has thatfor you in your future.
(01:11):
So I just want to say thatright off the bat.
But, as you can tell from what Ijust said, in my opinion, yes,
abortion is not something thatChristians should be supporting,
and I thought that this waskind of a black and white issue.
I always thought and heardgrowing up in church that
(01:31):
abortion was wrong and I thoughtthat everyone felt the same
thing until actually just about24 hours ago, where I looked for
a chart that I had seen thattalks about how many abortions
were performed and how manybabies were lost by way of
abortion versus how many peopledied in different wars, and it
(01:53):
was just a huge, huge chasm ofdifference.
And so I was looking for thatchart and all of a sudden, I saw
all these articles pop up aboutpeople who are Christian who
actually support abortion, andthat really took me back for a
second.
I couldn't even believe thatthat was something that was even
a discussion, to be honest.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Well, I think the argument they would make and you
and I both have friends who areChristians and who support
abortion I think the argumentthey would make is they are
showing empathy to a woman whofinds herself in a difficult
situation right, and I wouldnever tell anybody to be less
empathetic, but I think it'sactually a failure of empathy
when you don't show the sameempathy to the child who you're
(02:38):
killing.
I mean, that's what it is.
Look, this is 2025.
Now we can't pretend to beagnostic about this.
We know where babies come from.
We understand what the lifecontinuum is.
We understand what's happeninginside of a womb, and the fact
that you just can't see it andit can be done with surgical
precision and kind of you know,behind closed doors to a child
who you've never met before, itdoesn't change what's actually
(02:59):
happening, all right.
So let me start with that.
Now I do want to read to yousomething I brought this up
before the show that I wrote onmy Facebook page, because I was
trying to reconcile how this,how I, how I can have so many
friends who are franklypro-abortion even though they
wouldn't call themselves that,but they are and yet I know them
to be good people.
So here's what I wrote.
(03:20):
I want you to tell me what youthink about this, all right.
Know them to be good people, sohere's what I wrote.
I want you to tell me what youthink about this, all right.
So I wrote this.
I wrote I'm as pro-life as theycome.
I have many friends,republicans and Democrats alike,
who are not, because I knowthem to be good people.
They would not be my friendsotherwise.
I refuse to attribute theirdisagreement on this extremely
sensitive and important issue tosome sort of depravity or
villainy on their part.
(03:40):
I believe abortion is the takingof an innocent human life,
because a baby is clearly allthree of those things innocent,
human and a life.
There can't be any seriousdoubt about any of that.
But I do not believe that everyperson who refuses to oppose
abortion is evil, even thoughabortion is itself evil, because
sometimes people overthinkthings and sometimes they
underthink them, and sometimesthey're just coming from a
different place in life, and I'mwrong, too, about some things,
(04:03):
and when I am, it's not becausemy heart is in the wrong place,
it's because people are humanand nobody's perfect, and
sometimes we can't see theforest for the trees, and I
mentioned that mine is anadversarial position, a
profession being a lawyer, andI'm designed for that.
But as I get older, I find it'sbest to think the best of
people, especially those youknow to be, and understand that
good people often disagree onmatters of right and wrong for
(04:25):
reasons other than wickedness,even when what's right seems so
obvious and all of us get wrongfrom time to time things that in
hindsight are obviously right.
Okay.
So I'm not going soft here.
I'm trying to give people thebenefit of the doubt, but I'm
also trying to draw adistinction here between
condemning the person andcondemning the practice.
So plenty of food for thoughtthere, kristen.
(04:46):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Well, it's interesting that you bring up
this kind of viewpoint, becausewe don't fight against flesh and
blood and sometimes when we seesomething so obvious, we tend
to want to get really angry atthe person.
But I do have to tell you, Istart to see these articles that
these people have written andthey make me angry.
(05:09):
And I have to watch not to getangry at the person because I
think and I like to think thebest of people.
I do think, like you said,they're trying not to alienate
people, they're trying to bereally inclusive, but the
problem with that is what theyare saying is evil.
So I'm going to be very strongon this and say for people who
(05:32):
are in leadership or in any typeof leadership that are saying
softly and sweetly, you know,like those serpent kind of
things that the enemy is usingas seeds to draw people in,
because people see that and thenthey think, okay, abortion is
okay.
I saw one that a woman wrotethat she believes that God knows
(05:58):
who's going to have an abortion, so because he knows that he
chooses not to put a soul intothose cells, so it's okay to
have an abortion.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Well, that's just the most asinine thing.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
So this is what I'm talking about.
The line needs to be drawn.
I'm not saying that we yell andscream at people.
Maybe that's not the rightapproach and it just depends
what you're called to do.
But I do get this firing up ofjustice when I'm seeing some of
these articles out there or justpeople just being wishy-washy
(06:30):
on the whole thing.
There needs to be a line in thesand.
So I'm going to be a littlemore firm than you on this issue
and say, no, the people are notevil per se, maybe.
Maybe some of them are, butmaybe their heart is in the
right place, but they just don'tknow and they're confused.
So let's not be mad at them,but let's be mad and war against
(06:54):
the enemy.
Who is trying to do thistakeover in a sneaky, subtle way
and say this needs to stop.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Oh, let me be clear.
I'm not saying there are notgenuinely evil people on the
side of the abortion debate.
On the abortion side of theabortion debate, I mean, I think
about Cecil Richards, who wasthe outgoing CEO of Planned
Parenthood, and the new one,alexis McGill Johnson, and I
remember hearing the first oneof those speak and just thinking
(07:23):
this woman is pure evil.
She reminded me, actuallythere's a scene in Dante's
Inferno which I know is inscripture, but it's a good book
anyway and in Dante's Infernothere's these circles of hell
and they get worse as they goalong for the worst people.
And in one of the later circlesyou see souls in hell who have
not even died yet.
Their bodies are still alive,but they're so evil that their
(07:44):
souls have been taken to hellalready.
And I know that's notscriptural and that's not
literally what's happening, butthat's like the level of evil
with those people, thecompletely, completely awful,
soulless human beings.
And I don't want to say thatthey're irredeemably evil,
because I don't believe anythingis beyond Christ's redemption,
but unrepentantly andunequivocally evil.
And, by the way, let's not losesight of the fact that those
(08:08):
are people who make tons ofmoney on abortion too.
Abortion is a big industry.
Go look at the salaries ofthese Planned Parenthood people
half a million dollars and above.
Go, look, I mean, these peopleare making more than the
president and acting likethey're Martin Luther King Jr
here or something, leading thecivil rights marches.
You know like we're fightingfor.
You know for desegregation?
That's the other thing.
How it's gone from being itused to be.
(08:30):
It used to be.
People would say well, you know, I don't personally believe in
abortion, but you know, I don'tthink I should impose my views
on women.
And now, you see, I'll just sayit, with the Democrats this
past year really doubling itthat abortion was being hailed
as a good thing.
It's not just a matter of awoman's right or women's health,
it's a good thing to happen,and anyone who opposes it is bad
(08:51):
.
I mean, the world is totallytopsy-turvy, and so what I would
say is you know, quotingEphesians 4.15, we are exhorted
always to speak truth in love.
Right, and you can speak truth,but not in love, which is what
I'm saying we don't do.
Okay, speak truth tenaciouslyand speak it in love, but that
doesn't mean that you can't callout for what it is.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
It is, and you know I was thinking about speaking of
that love.
You know there are places thathave ministries for women who
have had an abortions and I wantto stress that again.
I think people confuse this,this whole thing about getting
on the abortion issue.
When we get on the issue andsay this is wrong, it needs to
stop, we're also advocating forthe right of the unborn, but
(09:34):
we're advocating for the painthat these women have to go
through that have had this doneto them.
I'm telling you, I know womenwho, many women who have said to
me that they didn't want this,they didn't want this and they
sat in that room and took thatpill while their parents and
they were over 18, looked atthem until they swallowed the
(09:55):
pill or they have such traumaticexperiences and I'm telling you
.
And then I have a friend who isa nurse who says you don't even
want to know I can't even say it, it's too graphic what they do
to the body parts of fetusesafter for these abortions.
She said I was like eh, on theabortion issue, but when I
became a nurse and I saw whatwas happening, I was truly my
(10:19):
stomach was turned and I becamean advocate for pro-life.
So that's the thing here.
We're not just advocating,we're advocating for unborn
babies, male and female, andthose future daughters.
And you know we're alsoadvocating for the women who've
gone through these painful,terrible experiences.
(10:39):
Really, you know people sayabout the choice, the freedom to
choose, a lot of these womenhave been coerced into this and
it's against their will.
And even if it is their freewill, they have been kind of,
you know, prodded into thatthought line and then they
regret it and there's no goingback.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
That's true, but a lot of women don't regret it.
A lot of women just do it.
It's interesting thing aboutthe free will is there's free
will in terms of this is what Iwant.
But then the next question aswell is informed free will, and
what you'll notice is that a lotof the abortionists what
they'll do is they'll try toprevent women from getting
access to the information theywould need to make an informed
decision.
For example, there are certainlaws that say, well, before you
(11:20):
have an abortion, you need tolook at the ultrasound, and a
lot of people oppose thatbecause they don't want women to
see what they're doing.
All right, well, look, let'sreturn, wrapping this up, to the
original question Can somebodybe a Christian and support
abortion?
So I'll go first here and youtell me what you think.
I suppose you can be aChristian in that you accept
(11:41):
Christ and you believe in theresurrection and all that sort
of stuff, and have the contraryview, that you also support
abortion.
But you have to understandyou're on not only the wrong
side of Christianity, you'rewrong morally and ethically and
intellectually, and you don'teven have to be a Christian.
I know that we're running aministry here and this topic.
(12:01):
We've couched it deliberatelyin terms of can a Christian
support abortion?
But you don't have to be aChristian to oppose abortion.
I mean, there is a perfectlycoherent argument that says look
on the side of science, we knowwhat a baby is and you're
obviously killing a baby, andkilling a baby is obviously
wrong and you don't have to be aChristian or a theist of any
(12:23):
kind to believe in that.
So my answer is can a Christiansupport abortion or support
this sort of you know one footin, one foot out position of?
I oppose abortion, but I don'tthink the government should be
involved.
I suppose you can if youunderstand that you're on the
wrong side of the issue, morally, ethically, scientifically and
(12:44):
in terms of Christianity, andyou know where that leaves you.
I don't really know.
I don't know why you'd want tobe deliberately wrong about
something from every singleangle.
And if the idea is that youthink that this is the
empathetic thing to do, then Ican show you you can still be
empathetic to these women whilenot doing the most unempathetic
(13:05):
thing possible and advocatingfor the killing of the child.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
You know, at some point you have to say it's like
can a Christian do this and bethis?
There's a technicality ofsomeone can gun somebody down
and kill them and then all of asudden realize what they've done
and say Jesus, forgive me of mysin, and accept Jesus and go to
heaven.
That's the power of the gospel.
But there's a repentance thereand a realization and then they
(13:34):
become a Christian.
Can a person be a Christian,accept Jesus, go, gun the person
down and then say God, forgiveme what I did?
Well, yeah, there's going to beconsequences, like serious
consequences, but yes, butthey're not.
A double-minded man is unstablein all his ways.
So my question to you would beif you support abortion, you
(13:55):
know only God can judge.
I'm not God.
I can't judge and say are you aChristian?
Are you going to heaven?
That's not my place to judge.
At the very least, you'remisguided.
I'm sorry, but it's like howcan you believe in this and
believe in Jesus at the sametime?
It's contradictory.
It's a double-minded man, isunstable in all his ways and
(14:18):
that's just.
I'm sorry if I'm being a bitharsh on this, but I just feel
like it's like it's not.
It's not.
This is just the way it is.
It's not harsh.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
It's not harsh and it's a difficult question for
the theological, the, the moral,ethical, scientific and and
legal questions to me are easyto answer.
Okay, where it becomes harsh isand there's perhaps a broader
discussion here that we can havesome of the time is at what
point are you so wrong aboutsomething and you've been so
vocal in support of that thingthat you're you're advocating on
the side of evil and thatyou're, at that point,
(14:47):
compromising your salvation?
And I don't know the answer toto that I think it's best just
to.
I mean, how the heck you couldsay look, this is very simple,
there's a very simple filterhere.
Okay, you want to be aChristian, you want to live a
Christian life and a good life,you want true enlightenment.
It's very simple.
What would Jesus do?
Do you think Jesus wouldsupport an abortion?
(15:11):
And if you even saying thosewords, it sounds so patently
ridiculous to me.
Blasphemous of the Holy Spirit,whatever it is, it's just so
patently ridiculous.
If the answer is no, jesuswould not support abortion
because Jesus is all-knowing andall-loving then what defect is
there in your thinking?
Are you less than all-knowingor less than all-liking?
All-liking, all-loving it hasto be one of those things.
(15:32):
So I don't know that you go tolook, I'm not the Pope here, not
that I'm a Catholic, but youknow, I'm not here to tell
somebody, if you are a Christianand you believe in abortion,
you're going to hell.
But I am absolutely saying thatif you are a Christian and you
believe that that supportingabortion is constant with your
faith, then there's been,there's been a failure of
thought somewhere in the process.
How about that?
That's?
That's as charitably as I canput it.
All right, kristen, before Istart to really go off here, why
(15:57):
don't you pray us out?
All right?
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Okay.
Well, jesus, I pray that theveil will be lifted off of eyes,
and it's not just the abortionissue, it's other issues, lord,
whether it be in the church orjust subtle little things that
the enemy tries to get an inroadAgain.
We're not mad at the people,lord, even though we are in our
flesh sometimes and we tend toget fired up.
(16:21):
God, we're mad and we should berighteous anger at the enemy,
what the enemy is trying to do,and we want to take that stand,
we want to draw that line in thesand and say no more.
And we pray for revival in thisnation.
We pray for eyes to be openedand repentant hearts, God, and
we don't come here saying thatwe're holier and mightier than
(16:42):
now.
And what have you, god?
We say Lord, show us the thingsin our hearts, god, that need
to be corrected.
God, and I pray for each andevery one of us, lord, to just
have loving open arms and thatthe people who have gone through
this would see Jesus in us andthat your kingdom would come to
(17:02):
this earth.
In Jesus' name.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Amen, all right guys.
Thanks for joining us.
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Bye.
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