June 30, 2024 • 12 mins
Should divorced individuals hold leadership positions within the church? Join us on this profound episode of the Jordan and Kristen Rickards show, where we tackle this pressing question head-on. Kristen opens with a heartfelt prayer for wisdom and peace, setting a reflective atmosphere for our discussion. We delve into the complex realities of divorce, drawing a crucial distinction between those who initiate it and those thrust into it by circumstances like abuse or abandonment. Kristen emphasizes the need for a period of restoration and healing before assuming leadership roles, while Jordan offers his perspective as a divorce attorney, highlighting that victims of abusive marriages shouldn’t be barred from leadership after suitable healing. Both agree that elective divorces for non-emergency reasons, such as midlife crises, require a different consideration for leadership roles.
Moreover, we explore the delicate balance of grace, accountability, and leadership within Christian communities. By delving into Jesus’ teachings on marriage and divorce, we stress the importance of accountability in church leadership, but also the necessity of grace and forgiveness. Through real-life examples of influential Christian leaders who have experienced divorce, we assert that repentance and personal growth are essential for anyone aspiring to leadership. We also touch on the challenges of setting church policies and the critical importance of leading by example to uphold moral standards. Tune in for a thoughtful and engaging discussion that promises to offer wisdom and clarity on this nuanced topic.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everybody, thanks for joining us.
Welcome to the Jordan andKristen Rickards show.
Today's topic is whether peoplewho get divorced should be in
leadership positions in thechurch, which I know is a very
controversial topic and weshould get a lot of comments
about it, but it's an importantone, so we got to discuss it.
All right, Kristen, before wedo that, why don't you open us
in prayer real quick?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, thank you, god.
Thank you that we can come toyou and that you give us the
peace that passes understanding.
I pray for anyone who's goingthrough any situation right now
where they need your wisdom orpeace, lord, that you would give
that to them and I know youwill, because it's a promise
that you give to us, lord.
I pray that these words that weare about to say would be from
you, god, and that you wouldgive us the wisdom and peace to
(00:38):
say them.
Lord, we honor you and wepraise you In Jesus' name.
Amen.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
All right.
So the reason we're doing thistopic is that a couple of our
friends were discussing thisrecently and they're a husband
and wife and of course, theywere disagreeing with each other
, and I just thought it'ssomething that's important and I
think you and I are actually inaccord on it.
So, kristen, what are yourthoughts?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
real quick, Well, you know, this is such an
interesting topic because it'snot a one size fits all, but
when you're talking aboutchurches and this kind of thing,
unfortunately you have tocreate a precedence.
So, even though it is somethingthat is a case by case basis,
that's what we're talking abouthere in this situation.
You know, I might just in anutshell.
(01:19):
My belief on this is that Godgives second, third, millions of
chances.
That's what he's all about,because we sin every day, but at
the same time, there needs tobe a period of time for
restoration, healing, whetherthat's even if it wasn't your
sin, if someone, the divorcehappened to you, no matter what
(01:42):
the circumstance, I do thinkthere needs to be a period of
time to step back, becauseleadership is such a giving out,
and it needs to be a period oftime to step back for
restoration and forgiveness andhealing and all those things,
and that at some point, yes,leadership can happen again, but
there definitely needs to be aperiod of time, no matter what.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
All right.
So I think the distinction hasto start with this.
I would say that, as a generalrule, someone who gets divorced
should not be in a leadershipposition.
However, that is distinct frompeople who have divorce happen
to them, and I would put in thatcategory people who are victims
of actual abuse, not people whoconsider abuse to be like.
You know, we get into argumentsor he's so controlling that
(02:25):
kind of stuff.
I mean that's bad stuff.
But you know people who arevictims of abuse and you and I
look, I'm a divorce attorney, ok.
So there are people who thinkthat I shouldn't even be having
this show because that's like aleadership position.
But the reason I got into it isbecause you and I both know
people who were victims,physically at risk of dying okay
, because of the marriage theywere in, and to me, I pulled
(02:47):
them out of burning buildings.
That's no different than what afirefighter does.
God doesn't like arson, but hecertainly wants to save the
people in the building.
God doesn't like divorce, buthe wanted me to rescue those
people from really dangeroussituations, okay, so I don't
think people like that are inthe same position as somebody
who's getting divorced becausethey're having a midlife crisis
or they just feel like well, youknow, my happiness has to come
(03:09):
first and I'm just not happy inthis relationship.
Like I don't know how we got theidea that happiness your
happiness is the ultimate moralgood, because it's also the
happiness and well-being of yourchildren.
But there's also the solemnityof the marriage that you entered
into.
Right?
Jesus says if anybody getsdivorced for any reason other
than adultery and you remarry,then you're committing adultery
(03:33):
and we would never have aconversation like well,
christian, you know, you thinksomebody who's actively
committing adultery should be ina leadership position in the
church?
Like, absolutely not.
So when it comes to divorce,like if you're getting divorced,
we'll call it like an electivedivorce I don't think you should
be in a leadership position Now.
It's different if that's in thepast and you've realized what's
what happened and you'verepented of it.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
So you're saying what I'm saying about the period of
time, or you're saying at all.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
I'm saying the period of time First of all.
Anytime there's a divorce, Ithink you do need a period of
time for healing, because I knowthe enemy wants to take
advantage of people when they'reat their weakest right, and so
I think you got to take care ofyourself first.
But I'm absolutely sayingthere's a difference between
somebody who either their spouseleft them like with Charles
Stanley, he did not want to getdivorced, but his wife left him
okay or Joyce Myers, who wasdivorced early in life but you
(04:20):
didn't really know the Lord then, but now has come to God and
has been married like a half acentury now, or something like
that.
You know somebody who'sescaping domestic violence, that
sort of thing.
Or somebody you know who's withsomebody who wants to be with
another person.
You know when there's adulteryin the relationship and it's not
your fault.
Obviously that's a differentcategory of people.
People who have divorce happento them.
(04:42):
I don't think that's anydifferent, you know, than
becoming a victim of any otheraffliction and that person sure
they need to heal, okay, but Idon't think that should be a bar
to them returning to leadership.
Somebody who, on the other hand, thinks divorce is just okay
because you know, yeah, we couldhave stayed married, but I
wasn't happy in that marriage.
I'm sorry, that's nonsense.
(05:07):
There's a word I want to usethat I can't use.
But you don't get to do that.
And then just say and remain inleadership.
And I think, by the way, in thecircumstance that our friend
was describing that person was,it was an elective divorce, they
were going through it and thenstill wanted to stay in
leadership.
And our friend was like, no,that's just not how this is
going to work.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
No, I agree, you know you think about well.
First of all, what did Jesussay?
Jesus hated divorce.
He hated, you know, what Godhas put together.
Let man not separate.
However, at the same time, lookat how, you know, that would
have been shocking.
The woman at the well who hadbeen divorced or whatever, had
six or seven husbands.
God did not say to her oh,you're too far from grace.
(05:49):
He looked at her, he did saysin no more, whether it was her
or the woman who had committedadultery.
He did say that to them.
So it wasn't a pass, but heloved them and forgave them.
And look at David and that mess, all the mess that he created.
And so there is restoration,because that's the whole point
(06:09):
of the gospel, of course, but atthe same time, it's dangerous.
I think what I see in thechurches as a generalization is
this move towards and it's notjust with divorce, but it's this
move towards.
You know, this is okay orthat's okay, in an effort to
show that God has grace, whichhe does.
But the point of grace is therestoration, is the repentance.
(06:31):
It's not so that you can justtake the line and put it over
here.
We need accountability inchurches for our own sake.
Every person needsaccountability.
I feel like there needs to bemore accountability in
leadership, because people arefalling through the cracks and
Satan is attacking and theweight is on them, and that's
when Satan gets into theirmarriages.
(06:52):
You just see it, it seems likethe wildfire everywhere.
Also, we need to define what isleadership, because leadership
can also be in ministry andprayer as elders, not just a
pastoral position.
I saw in one progressivePentecostal church.
I couldn't believe it.
They said if you had beendivorced, you couldn't pray over
(07:13):
people.
Well, a person I know, quite afew people who are deep, strong
men and women of faith, and onein particular who, again,
divorce happened to them.
They didn't even do this andthat is where they got their
spiritual strength.
And I look at this person.
That's a role model to me and Ithink that person can't pray
(07:35):
over somebody.
Yet someone who's doingsomething like pornography or
sinning in the dark is out therepraying over people.
Right, you know that is.
That does not make sense to me.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yeah, right, and that's the problem with having
hard and fast rules.
I mean, look, we know peoplewho committed heinous crimes and
went to prison and startedprison ministries.
Absolutely All right, andthat's and that's a leadership
position.
You know, I said to you before,if you were, if you had a
struggle with alcohol, youwouldn't go to an AA meeting
which is being led by somebodywho is currently struggling with
alcohol right, that's right.
(08:03):
So the person you'd wantleadership from is somebody
who's at least overcome it.
A better example of leadershipthere will be somebody who never
got into it in the first place,so that's kind of the ideal.
Look, I'm very grateful.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Well, I don't know about that.
I think it depends.
I think there's power insomeone who has gone through it.
I think both Both can bepowerful has gone through it.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
I think both, both can be powerful.
Well, both have their merits.
I'm not disputing that.
I'm just saying that, allthings considered, if you could
avoid the alcohol addiction inthe first place, that's better.
I mean, look, my point issimply this God has used we know
factually, god has used peoplewho've gotten divorced, right,
whether it was Joel Osteen'sfather, who founded an amazing
church, you know, charlesStanley, who did great work,
(08:50):
joyce Myers, who we loved.
So if you're going to take theposition that people who got
divorced shouldn't be inleadership, okay, well, you just
destroyed three of the greatestministries in the history of
the United States, right, and weknow that God used and
continues to use those families.
So that can't be it.
There has to be, though, I think, a distinction between the
divorce happened to you versusdid you just want the divorce or
that?
And that's number one, and thennumber two even in the event
(09:12):
where there was an electivedivorce, I think that person can
still be used if there's beenrepentance.
And then you know building backup, and you know how do you
evaluate that.
Well, on a case-by-case basis.
But if somebody's been marriednow for 20 straight years and
they got out of a marriage, youknow, 25 years ago or something,
and they realize, look, Imessed up, I made mistakes back
(09:32):
then and here's why this waswrong.
That's someone who can be used,but somebody who, just like you
said, just takes the spirit ofpermissiveness that you see in
leadership.
And what is the ultimate exampleof leadership?
Kristen is leadership byexample.
It's not just reading from theBible, it's leading by example.
So you want the people inchurches, just like you'd want
(09:57):
in government, to exemplify thehighest moral behavior, hold
themselves to the higheststandards, so that other people
can model themselves after that.
And if you go to a church andthe people in leadership are
behaving the same way as thepeople who are coming to church
to escape from sin, then you'vegot a real problem there.
So that's the only distinctionI'm making.
All right, sweetie, do you want?
Speaker 2 (10:13):
to add any last words .
Well, I guess anotherdiscussion would be how long is
that period of time?
How long do you have to stepaway from?
Speaker 1 (10:21):
the church.
But again, you don't want tohave like, you don't want to
create like a code book here andsay, well, it has to be this
many days, weeks, months andyears.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
But unfortunately, in a lot of churches you have to
have like a precedent.
That's what our friend wastalking about.
That's what's sticky about it.
You say I'm going to let thisslide.
Then you got to let.
Then that's what was rough.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Everybody's heart is different.
Everybody heals at differentspeeds, but the distinction is
what is the attitude?
And in the example that you'retalking about, the person that
our friend was talking about wasgoing through a purely elective
divorce where she just thought,well, I just need to find my
happiness or whatever, okay, andshe wanted to remain in
(11:01):
leadership.
And my position is that is theexact opposite of leadership.
That's somebody who requiresleadership, which is what our
friend was trying to demonstrate.
Them All right, so you did agreat job, by the way, and you
look super hot and I love you somuch.
Why don't you just close thatin prayer?
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Thank you, lord, for this day.
Thank you for who you are, god,we honor you, we praise you, we
give you the glory, lord, andwe pray that each person would
know how much you love them andhow much, lord, no matter where
we've been or what we've done.
God, the message of the gospelis that you love us and you call
us in and you create all thingsnew.
In Jesus' name, amen.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Amen, All right guys.
Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for putting up with mefor a little bit.
It was nice seeing you.
We'll see you next time, asalways.
In the meantime, be blessed andbe a blessing.
Hey everybody, thanks for joining us.
Welcome to the Jordan andKristen Rickards show.
Today's topic is whether peoplewho get divorced should be in
leadership positions in thechurch, which I know is a very
controversial topic and weshould get a lot of comments
about it, but it's an importantone, so we got to discuss it.
All right, Kristen, before wedo that, why don't you open us
in prayer real quick?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, thank you, god.
Thank you that we can come toyou and that you give us the
peace that passes understanding.
I pray for anyone who's goingthrough any situation right now
where they need your wisdom orpeace, lord, that you would give
that to them and I know youwill, because it's a promise
that you give to us, lord.
I pray that these words that weare about to say would be from
you, god, and that you wouldgive us the wisdom and peace to
(00:38):
say them.
Lord, we honor you and wepraise you In Jesus' name.
Amen.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
All right.
So the reason we're doing thistopic is that a couple of our
friends were discussing thisrecently and they're a husband
and wife and of course, theywere disagreeing with each other
, and I just thought it'ssomething that's important and I
think you and I are actually inaccord on it.
So, kristen, what are yourthoughts?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
real quick, Well, you know, this is such an
interesting topic because it'snot a one size fits all, but
when you're talking aboutchurches and this kind of thing,
unfortunately you have tocreate a precedence.
So, even though it is somethingthat is a case by case basis,
that's what we're talking abouthere in this situation.
You know, I might just in anutshell.
(01:19):
My belief on this is that Godgives second, third, millions of
chances.
That's what he's all about,because we sin every day, but at
the same time, there needs tobe a period of time for
restoration, healing, whetherthat's even if it wasn't your
sin, if someone, the divorcehappened to you, no matter what
(01:42):
the circumstance, I do thinkthere needs to be a period of
time to step back, becauseleadership is such a giving out,
and it needs to be a period oftime to step back for
restoration and forgiveness andhealing and all those things,
and that at some point, yes,leadership can happen again, but
there definitely needs to be aperiod of time, no matter what.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
All right.
So I think the distinction hasto start with this.
I would say that, as a generalrule, someone who gets divorced
should not be in a leadershipposition.
However, that is distinct frompeople who have divorce happen
to them, and I would put in thatcategory people who are victims
of actual abuse, not people whoconsider abuse to be like.
You know, we get into argumentsor he's so controlling that
(02:25):
kind of stuff.
I mean that's bad stuff.
But you know people who arevictims of abuse and you and I
look, I'm a divorce attorney, ok.
So there are people who thinkthat I shouldn't even be having
this show because that's like aleadership position.
But the reason I got into it isbecause you and I both know
people who were victims,physically at risk of dying okay
, because of the marriage theywere in, and to me, I pulled
(02:47):
them out of burning buildings.
That's no different than what afirefighter does.
God doesn't like arson, but hecertainly wants to save the
people in the building.
God doesn't like divorce, buthe wanted me to rescue those
people from really dangeroussituations, okay, so I don't
think people like that are inthe same position as somebody
who's getting divorced becausethey're having a midlife crisis
or they just feel like well, youknow, my happiness has to come
(03:09):
first and I'm just not happy inthis relationship.
Like I don't know how we got theidea that happiness your
happiness is the ultimate moralgood, because it's also the
happiness and well-being of yourchildren.
But there's also the solemnityof the marriage that you entered
into.
Right?
Jesus says if anybody getsdivorced for any reason other
than adultery and you remarry,then you're committing adultery
(03:33):
and we would never have aconversation like well,
christian, you know, you thinksomebody who's actively
committing adultery should be ina leadership position in the
church?
Like, absolutely not.
So when it comes to divorce,like if you're getting divorced,
we'll call it like an electivedivorce I don't think you should
be in a leadership position Now.
It's different if that's in thepast and you've realized what's
what happened and you'verepented of it.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
So you're saying what I'm saying about the period of
time, or you're saying at all.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
I'm saying the period of time First of all.
Anytime there's a divorce, Ithink you do need a period of
time for healing, because I knowthe enemy wants to take
advantage of people when they'reat their weakest right, and so
I think you got to take care ofyourself first.
But I'm absolutely sayingthere's a difference between
somebody who either their spouseleft them like with Charles
Stanley, he did not want to getdivorced, but his wife left him
okay or Joyce Myers, who wasdivorced early in life but you
(04:20):
didn't really know the Lord then, but now has come to God and
has been married like a half acentury now, or something like
that.
You know somebody who'sescaping domestic violence, that
sort of thing.
Or somebody you know who's withsomebody who wants to be with
another person.
You know when there's adulteryin the relationship and it's not
your fault.
Obviously that's a differentcategory of people.
People who have divorce happento them.
(04:42):
I don't think that's anydifferent, you know, than
becoming a victim of any otheraffliction and that person sure
they need to heal, okay, but Idon't think that should be a bar
to them returning to leadership.
Somebody who, on the other hand, thinks divorce is just okay
because you know, yeah, we couldhave stayed married, but I
wasn't happy in that marriage.
I'm sorry, that's nonsense.
(05:07):
There's a word I want to usethat I can't use.
But you don't get to do that.
And then just say and remain inleadership.
And I think, by the way, in thecircumstance that our friend
was describing that person was,it was an elective divorce, they
were going through it and thenstill wanted to stay in
leadership.
And our friend was like, no,that's just not how this is
going to work.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
No, I agree, you know you think about well.
First of all, what did Jesussay?
Jesus hated divorce.
He hated, you know, what Godhas put together.
Let man not separate.
However, at the same time, lookat how, you know, that would
have been shocking.
The woman at the well who hadbeen divorced or whatever, had
six or seven husbands.
God did not say to her oh,you're too far from grace.
(05:49):
He looked at her, he did saysin no more, whether it was her
or the woman who had committedadultery.
He did say that to them.
So it wasn't a pass, but heloved them and forgave them.
And look at David and that mess, all the mess that he created.
And so there is restoration,because that's the whole point
(06:09):
of the gospel, of course, but atthe same time, it's dangerous.
I think what I see in thechurches as a generalization is
this move towards and it's notjust with divorce, but it's this
move towards.
You know, this is okay orthat's okay, in an effort to
show that God has grace, whichhe does.
But the point of grace is therestoration, is the repentance.
(06:31):
It's not so that you can justtake the line and put it over
here.
We need accountability inchurches for our own sake.
Every person needsaccountability.
I feel like there needs to bemore accountability in
leadership, because people arefalling through the cracks and
Satan is attacking and theweight is on them, and that's
when Satan gets into theirmarriages.
(06:52):
You just see it, it seems likethe wildfire everywhere.
Also, we need to define what isleadership, because leadership
can also be in ministry andprayer as elders, not just a
pastoral position.
I saw in one progressivePentecostal church.
I couldn't believe it.
They said if you had beendivorced, you couldn't pray over
(07:13):
people.
Well, a person I know, quite afew people who are deep, strong
men and women of faith, and onein particular who, again,
divorce happened to them.
They didn't even do this andthat is where they got their
spiritual strength.
And I look at this person.
That's a role model to me and Ithink that person can't pray
(07:35):
over somebody.
Yet someone who's doingsomething like pornography or
sinning in the dark is out therepraying over people.
Right, you know that is.
That does not make sense to me.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yeah, right, and that's the problem with having
hard and fast rules.
I mean, look, we know peoplewho committed heinous crimes and
went to prison and startedprison ministries.
Absolutely All right, andthat's and that's a leadership
position.
You know, I said to you before,if you were, if you had a
struggle with alcohol, youwouldn't go to an AA meeting
which is being led by somebodywho is currently struggling with
alcohol right, that's right.
(08:03):
So the person you'd wantleadership from is somebody
who's at least overcome it.
A better example of leadershipthere will be somebody who never
got into it in the first place,so that's kind of the ideal.
Look, I'm very grateful.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Well, I don't know about that.
I think it depends.
I think there's power insomeone who has gone through it.
I think both Both can bepowerful has gone through it.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
I think both, both can be powerful.
Well, both have their merits.
I'm not disputing that.
I'm just saying that, allthings considered, if you could
avoid the alcohol addiction inthe first place, that's better.
I mean, look, my point issimply this God has used we know
factually, god has used peoplewho've gotten divorced, right,
whether it was Joel Osteen'sfather, who founded an amazing
church, you know, charlesStanley, who did great work,
(08:50):
joyce Myers, who we loved.
So if you're going to take theposition that people who got
divorced shouldn't be inleadership, okay, well, you just
destroyed three of the greatestministries in the history of
the United States, right, and weknow that God used and
continues to use those families.
So that can't be it.
There has to be, though, I think, a distinction between the
divorce happened to you versusdid you just want the divorce or
that?
And that's number one, and thennumber two even in the event
(09:12):
where there was an electivedivorce, I think that person can
still be used if there's beenrepentance.
And then you know building backup, and you know how do you
evaluate that.
Well, on a case-by-case basis.
But if somebody's been marriednow for 20 straight years and
they got out of a marriage, youknow, 25 years ago or something,
and they realize, look, Imessed up, I made mistakes back
(09:32):
then and here's why this waswrong.
That's someone who can be used,but somebody who, just like you
said, just takes the spirit ofpermissiveness that you see in
leadership.
And what is the ultimate exampleof leadership?
Kristen is leadership byexample.
It's not just reading from theBible, it's leading by example.
So you want the people inchurches, just like you'd want
(09:57):
in government, to exemplify thehighest moral behavior, hold
themselves to the higheststandards, so that other people
can model themselves after that.
And if you go to a church andthe people in leadership are
behaving the same way as thepeople who are coming to church
to escape from sin, then you'vegot a real problem there.
So that's the only distinctionI'm making.
All right, sweetie, do you want?
Speaker 2 (10:13):
to add any last words .
Well, I guess anotherdiscussion would be how long is
that period of time?
How long do you have to stepaway from?
Speaker 1 (10:21):
the church.
But again, you don't want tohave like, you don't want to
create like a code book here andsay, well, it has to be this
many days, weeks, months andyears.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
But unfortunately, in a lot of churches you have to
have like a precedent.
That's what our friend wastalking about.
That's what's sticky about it.
You say I'm going to let thisslide.
Then you got to let.
Then that's what was rough.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Everybody's heart is different.
Everybody heals at differentspeeds, but the distinction is
what is the attitude?
And in the example that you'retalking about, the person that
our friend was talking about wasgoing through a purely elective
divorce where she just thought,well, I just need to find my
happiness or whatever, okay, andshe wanted to remain in
(11:01):
leadership.
And my position is that is theexact opposite of leadership.
That's somebody who requiresleadership, which is what our
friend was trying to demonstrate.
Them All right, so you did agreat job, by the way, and you
look super hot and I love you somuch.
Why don't you just close thatin prayer?
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Thank you, lord, for this day.
Thank you for who you are, god,we honor you, we praise you, we
give you the glory, lord, andwe pray that each person would
know how much you love them andhow much, lord, no matter where
we've been or what we've done.
God, the message of the gospelis that you love us and you call
us in and you create all thingsnew.
In Jesus' name, amen.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Amen, All right guys.
Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for putting up with mefor a little bit.
It was nice seeing you.
We'll see you next time, asalways.
In the meantime, be blessed andbe a blessing.
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