What if your chronic pain isn't just a physical problem? What if healing requires more than just treating symptoms? In this captivating conversation, Dr. Jordan Barber—acupuncturist, chronic pain specialist, and self-described "heretic"—challenges conventional thinking about health and healing.
Beginning with his personal transformation from IT professional to acupuncturist after experiencing severe health issues in his twenties, Dr. Barber takes us on a journey through the four pillars of Chinese medicine: diet/lifestyle, herbs, physical treatments (including acupuncture), and movement practices. He explains how these elements work together to address not just symptoms but the interconnected nature of our physical, emotional, and energetic bodies.
The discussion delves deep into pelvic floor dysfunction—a condition affecting 60% of women and 16-20% of men—revealing how seemingly unrelated issues like ankle alignment, diaphragm function, and emotional trauma can manifest as pain throughout the body. "The issue is in the tissues," Dr. Barber explains, describing how our bodies physically store emotions and memories, sometimes releasing them years later during treatment.
Perhaps most compelling is Dr. Barber's perspective on the practitioner-patient relationship. He distinguishes between "listening to respond" and "listening to understand"—a subtle but transformative difference that changes healthcare outcomes. His book "Realigning Medicine" emerged from this philosophy, guiding practitioners to authentic connection rather than formulaic approaches.
For anyone struggling with chronic pain, feeling unseen by healthcare providers, or seeking a more holistic understanding of their body, this episode offers profound insights and practical wisdom. Dr. Barber's parting message—"Demand more"—serves as both permission and encouragement to advocate for comprehensive care that honors the complex interconnectedness of our human experience.
Have you been settling for partial solutions to persistent health issues? What might be possible if you approached healing from a more integrated perspective?
Connect with Dr. Jordan on IG @jbarberlac or follow up with his book, Realigning Medicine! Worth the read!!
Let's connect on social media! You can find me @ _journeytowell
Be sure to reach out and say hello 🤍
Book your Intro to Human Design Chart Reading here!
Ready to dive deep? Explore our signature 1:1 coaching experiences ALIGN or EMBODY here!
Craving guidance, expansion or growth? Let's connect.
https://journeytowell.net
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be well, my friend
xx Hannah
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello, welcome back to the podcast Journey to Well.
So today I am joined with DrJordan Barber.
He is a chronic pain expert andacupuncturist based in New York
, which I love that's where Icame from.
So we are going to be talkingabout a wide variety of things
(00:25):
Obviously, your background,Jordan, and overall health and
wellness and kind of other waysthat we can advocate for
ourselves outside of just goingto the doctor, going to the
ortho.
So before we dive into theconversation, I would love for
you to introduce yourself whathats you want to kind of put on.
(00:45):
In the introduction I also willsay Jordan is a 5'1 emotional
generator in human design.
So you know we talk a lot abouthuman design on the podcast, so
I want to throw that out in thebeginning.
But, Jordan, thank you so muchfor coming on and tell us who
you are, what you love, whatyou're passionate about.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well, Hannah, I'm super excited and I guess it
should be a disclaimer that 5.1is going to be quite clear and
if anyone knows about 5.1,.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
you know the heretic is there, my mom's a 5.1, so I
can't wait to talk about thatwith you.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I love to explore a lot of that.
So you know, I guess the 5.1,let's start with that because I
grew up as a punk rocker betweenSt Mark's Place down in New
York City and on Long Island.
So right there that was.
That, you know, desire to findsomething deeper and to make
(01:43):
change Right Grew up in the itworld.
Um, I had my first job at 15 ina company that was going ipo.
During the dot-com boom wentthrough 9 11.
I was there and decided to makea life change because of a lot
of health issues not from 9 11,thankfully, but you know the
(02:04):
lifestyle that was leading at 20, 21 years old down in the
financial district, you know,wasn't healthy for me and a lot
of stuff transpired.
But at the end of the day Iwound up in integrated medicine
because acupuncture aftersurgeries and everything else
was the only thing that gave merelief and I became interested.
(02:24):
And a little background theretoo, my, you know, as, like a 15
, 16 year old, the job I wantedto have was to be a massage
therapist and a tarot reader.
Hey right, which you know is avery teenage kind of idea, but
because I received medicalmassage because my back was
(02:47):
always hurting and stuff becauseI was in front of computers or
I was in mosh pits I hadinsurance that covered it and I
thought it was like profound andI really loved how, like you
know, there was like a spiritualside of connecting with people
and I was always a veryspiritual kid and I was always
into tarot cards and I read foreveryone in high school and I
was like if I could just do this, this would be great.
(03:08):
And I lost myself a bit, youknow, in my early twenties,
working in the financialdistricts and in IT, and
thankfully, you know, talk aboutthe gift of 9-11, all the
tragedies in my life have gifts.
The gift, you know, was that itallowed me to reconnect and
(03:29):
find myself and set me on theright journey, because I was
craving the things that I lostand I was aware of it.
So I found it, you know, now,at 45, you know, 20 years, in
some form of clinical practice.
So, yeah, that's that's theabnormal version of my story,
(03:50):
but I think that's the betterone for a five one introduction.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
I love that.
We want the abnormal.
We don't want the boring.
We like the different.
What was going on with yourback?
You said acupuncture was theonly thing that helped.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
So my back was pretty good.
I mean, I just always had acampaign, a campaigns just from
like computers and I, you know Irode my bike a lot and I fell
off the bike a lot.
You know I did martial arts,all these different things, but
when I started really working ina financial district I was
living off of, you know, foodcarts and you know steak dinners
and going to windows on theworld you know, every Friday and
(04:30):
drinking like a fish.
And I grew up in the musicscene and I'm still partially
involved in it and you knowthose late nights were rough.
I was burning the candle up allfence shall we say, you know, I
was in bands, I toured, I DJed,I did all those things.
So there wasn't much left inthat tank and I started having a
(04:50):
lot of sinus issues.
I was sick from like Novemberto it had to be summer, even
spring, because allergies wouldbe bad.
I had sinus surgeries and allthese things.
Nothing worked um.
Within a month, and actually Iwoke up from a dream with the
(05:11):
word acupuncture.
I obviously knew what it was,but I didn't know.
It was like a real thing.
That would be like 2002,somewhere around there.
Maybe I'm thinking, and youknow, I didn't even know how to
find like, is that a real thing,like you know?
So remember googling and Ifound a school and I figured
well, if they teach it, theyhave to be real, they won't kill
(05:33):
me.
Um, so I went to like theprofessional clinics at the
school, which later became myschool, and, um, within a month,
like 80 percent of my symptomswere gone.
Wow.
So you know it's huge and it wasdiet, lifestyle, some herbs and
acupuncture.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Okay, okay.
So for people I mean I justsaid this before we hit record
living in this world like I grewup, my mom actually worked at
an acupuncturist's office.
So I grew up like I hadacupuncture when I was in high
school and I grew up knowing,knowing about it what it is.
But for those of us that arelistening that maybe, like you
(06:14):
have heard the word but you'relike what the heck actually is
it, maybe you even know youstick needles in your body but
like what is the point of it?
What does it actually do?
Could you give a brief introfor that?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
You know, sure Besides the needles yeah,
besides, everyone thinks of theneedles and it's like being a
dentist, right.
It's like how do you selldentistry, right?
You know, it's like you gobecause you need it, right?
Yeah, you know, in the US theterm acupuncture has become a
larger term to describe aprofession, which is the
(06:47):
profession that encompasses EastAsian medicine or Chinese
medicine.
There's arguments of like whatwords we're using.
We used to use the wordoriental medicine, but that word
is becoming a bit passe and wedon't like it anymore and we
don't tend to like it anymore.
So we say there's four pillarsto the medicine, diet and
(07:09):
lifestyle being a major pillar.
What you put in your mouth, soeating, herbs, et cetera, things
that you do to the body, sothat can be body work,
manipulations of the bones andjoints.
Acupuncture, something you doto the body, something called
moxibustion, which is burning ofmugwort and medicinal herbs on
or near the body to heat it.
It burns in the infraredspectrum, so it has deep effects
(07:32):
.
And also the oils that aresecreted from it, increased
leukocytes, right or white bloodcells in the body.
So they have all thesedifferent effects on the body.
And then the last is somethingthat we call qigong, now a
tradition called daoyin, whichqigong means to work one's qi,
which is what we loosely callenergy in English, but energy is
(07:53):
like the worst word if you askme, but we all know what we mean
at least.
But ultimately, in medicine,energy is much more about
metabolism, but in a largersense of how things interrelate
and have effects on each other.
Right, so we work themetabolism in a relationship of
things, including the subtleenergies, but as well as you
(08:13):
know how our nervous system'sfunctioning and everything else.
And then dahlia means to guideand lead, or guiding and leading
the body into the direction itneeds to go.
So these are more meditative orexercises, think of it like
yoga, yoga asanas with breathand other things.
All of those together is theprofession of acupuncture.
(08:35):
And then you have the varietiesof Korea, japan, thailand,
which has a mixture of Ayurvedaand Chinese medicine, tibetan
medicine, which is Chinesemedicine plus its native
medicine turned into Tibetanmedicine, and there's all these
varieties, but they have astrong root.
So there's these.
(08:56):
You know there's a core ofChinese medicine and it spreads
out.
So you will always kind of geta separate answer from everyone
you ask.
Yeah that would be the closestthat everyone would probably
agree to.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
I mean, you just taught me a lot, I didn't know
all that.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
But there are needles too.
There are needles.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Very, very cool.
I mean I've definitely hadacupuncture done.
My massage therapist also doesacupuncture, so more of just the
needle side of things, I didn'tknow that there was the three
pillars.
So when you and I know that youhave your own kind of brick and
mortar boutique acupunctureoffice, well, before I ask
(09:40):
questions, tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Well, I love using the word boutique, because it's
just it's.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
I love that you use it.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
And you know the reason why I use it is so I have
.
I have several differentoffices.
At one point I had ninelocations.
Um, I've pared down becausethat is not for me.
Um, there's a less stress thatcomes with that.
Um, so I have four integrativemedicine offices focused on
orthopedics and rehab.
Integrative meaning we havephysical therapy, medical
(10:08):
doctors, massage therapists andwe create care plans and help
people, and that's out on LongIsland.
But for me, I wanted a boutiquepractice, a practice where I
can do the things I love to dooutside of the insurance
industry, because my otheroffices are part of the
insurance industry, because weneed to give people access and
(10:29):
if their insurance is paying forit, then we have to have a way.
But we also have to have a wayto have fun, especially when the
insurance industries are notinterested.
My boutique clinic is focused ontreatment of pain still, which
is my doctoral focus, but with asubspecialty of pelvic floor
dysfunction.
And you know I take a widedefinition of pelvic floor.
(10:52):
Pelvic floor is anything fromyour diaphragm down to your knee
, because all those things havean effect on the true pelvic
floor.
So, and pelvic floordysfunction can be sexual
dysfunction, painful intercourse, urinary issues, bladder issues
, prolapse, you know, just painin the pelvic floor region,
(11:15):
numbness and these things.
They're getting more awareness.
60% of women will experiencepelvic floor dysfunction in
their life.
About 16 to 20% of males.
The differentiating factorsbecause of pregnancy.
There's a lot more that canhappen.
So there's a lot more room forthings to go awry.
(11:36):
But there's more awarenessbeing focused on it now, but
there's still not a lot ofpractitioners out there focusing
on it.
You see it big in the physicaltherapy world, but for me I
focus on dry needling, which isessentially just still using the
needles to regulate the nervoussystem, regulate or break free
(11:58):
of fascia scar tissue in thepelvic floor, as well as
decrease hypertonicity, whichare tight muscles, and also
innervate muscles that are nolonger being innervated because
of neurological dysfunction.
So there's a lot we can do withthe needles and before anyone
(12:20):
asks yes, the needles go downthere, so not all the time, but
it's a question, you know.
Uh, people are very thankful ifyou can make the pain go away
pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, um, does something have to happen for
this pain to occur, likeobviously you spoke of pregnancy
?
Um, does something happen orcan?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
A lot of my pelvic floor dysfunction that I I've
seen, especially early on, whichgot me interested in it was
adolescence and people in theirtwenties.
Obviously you know, especiallyin adolescence, no history of
pregnancy.
They were athletes and so thinkI mean we know, if you do a
(12:58):
squat, there's you're, you'reusing your core and you're
tightening that pelvic floor andyou're engaging those
hamstrings and everything else.
Well, what if it doesn'trelease?
What if you also have somepostural issues?
What if you have some diaphragmissues?
And because the diaphragm thinkof the pelvic floor as the
opposite diaphragm they contractand relax opposite of each
(13:21):
other.
So we're supposed to, and ifone's tight, the other one
doesn't release.
So you start seeing these weirdanomalous symptoms, whether
there's pain or numbness, youknow, or you know sensations of
bladder fullness, you knowurgency, need to pee, but like
(13:42):
then there's nothing there andit's just the nerves just
misfiring because the musclesare tight around them.
So I'm seeing it.
But because of the lack ofawareness and if you go to your
gp, your general practitioner,they're just like I don't know,
maybe they'll send you to pt andhopefully the pt identifies it,
but it might also look likeback pain and so we don't think
about it.
(14:02):
that's's going to be my questionyeah, well that's why I take
the wider view, because I saythe pelvic floor is from that
diaphragm to the knee and I canmake it the ankle if you really
want, because of how it affectsthe biomechanics and kinetic
chain.
But you know.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
You're speaking my language.
I told you I've been havingback, kind of chronic like you
deal with chronic back pain.
It started when I was younger.
I was doing back squats at thegym and just went down the wrong
way, felt like I just pulledevery muscle in my back and ever
since, you know, we have flareups and I've been in a terrible
(14:41):
one the past few months and thenI was walking down the stairs
completely sober, mind you, inthe dark, though, skipped the
last step, sprained my ankle,and we've always my mom and I
have always really talked aboutthe alignment of the ankle, and
I would love to hear yourperspective of this, because one
of the things that I we kind oftalked about like what, what is
(15:06):
this like underlying topic ofthe podcast, what do we want it
to be?
And one of the things that Ireally love talking about is is
the interconnectedness ofeverything, and you've talked
about a few times you've alreadysaid your nervous system and
regulating your nervous systemand and relaxing the muscles,
and you know things firing inthe same way, and so my mom and
I have talked about thealignment of your ankles.
(15:28):
Could that affect the alignmentof your hips and your posture,
which then affects the alignmentof your back and all of that.
So it was interesting that yousaid ankles.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, no, I mean 100% .
I mean all you have to do isstand up without your shoes on,
or I mean even with your shoeson, and roll an ankle in and see
how your hip shifts.
Yeah.
Now, if your ankle is stuck inthat position, every time you
step you're reinforcing thatshift and then what'll happen is
the fascia will tighten, thatstuff that looks like when you
eat chicken or some meat and yousee that thin stuff around it.
(16:01):
That's called fascia.
Well, that stuff is essentiallythe thing that separates the
muscles and allows there to beglide and also creates a
stabilization network, and it'sa single sheath.
It wraps around every organ,every nerve, every single thing.
Right, there's main sheaths ofit, but they're all
interconnected and there's atheory called the biotensegrity
(16:22):
theory, which is theinterconnectedness and how all
these little things can play outin larger systems within the
body.
But certainly an ankle injury,especially if someone's you know
running after that or you knowstill being, you know, athletic
after spraining their ankle,which is very common will throw
(16:46):
off their back and then theymight have hip pain, you know,
and no one thinks about theankle, and you can release the
hip and then it comes back.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
It's like well, it's because the ankle is off, which
is so interesting, Again, youknow, talking about like your
doctor and even like anorthopedic doctor.
I mentioned it to them and theyjust have.
They're like, oh well, Iwouldn't worry about that right
now.
Like, just focus on your backgetting better and nothing.
And I don't say that withhatred or anything.
(17:10):
I mean we can have a wholeconversation about like
education and the traditionalmedicine system and all medical
fields, but nothing bad withmalice.
I'm not saying that with malice, but it's just another kind of
looping back to the importanceof knowing your other options.
And that was one of the reasonsthat I wanted to have you on
(17:32):
this podcast and have aconversation with you, because I
don't think that we have a lotof education and a lot of
opportunity to, I don't know,maybe awareness I don't really
know what it is.
Maybe you have a better ideajust being in your field so I
(17:53):
mean there's a lot I can say.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
you know, when I first started out, um, the
medical community was notinterested in acupuncture.
Wow, you know, the mostaccepting people were just kind
of like I don't know, know, Idon't think you'll die, and that
was like basically like goodluck.
I have seen a massive shift Now.
Mind you, I'm in a metropolitanarea, so there's a market
(18:17):
demand for it, stronger,stronger consumer demand for any
integrative modality, butacupuncture being one of the
larger in-demand modalitiesright now.
So market demand does dictatewhat the the where the attention
goes.
So they're more curious andpatients just say well, you know
, I got better One of my majorthings, more and more now.
(18:41):
I mean, you know I mentioned Ihave integrative offices out
East on Long Island, but in, inmy boutique clinic, everything
that I do is focused on careplans.
I want to know, especially forpelvic health.
I want to know who your pelvicfloor therapist is, because it's
not me alone that's going tohelp you, you know.
Or who your urologist is oryour gyno, whoever the referring
(19:01):
physician is.
I want to make sure that youhave a team and what I realized
is the more that we work inteams, the more I find
clinicians that see the value ofintegrative approaches, where
we become much more outcomebased and we become much more
focused on the patient, and it'sjust a totally different way of
(19:21):
doing medicine right.
So through that becomesawareness and more and more
clinicians want to know what thesuccessful people are doing and
they realize they're focusingon their patients outcomes as
opposed to focusing on theirbottom line, and outcome always
feeds bottom line.
You're going to make money ifyou get people better, so it's
(19:42):
like you don't have to focus onthat If you can get people
better and people have a reallypositive experience.
And this is one of the thingsthat I wrote about in my book,
which is more focused onpractice management, but it's
really about the patient journey.
Successful practitioners havereally good patient journeys and
what I mean by the journey isfrom the moment they hear about
(20:02):
you to the last time they talkto you or they leave your clinic
discharged or your coachingpractice or whatever it is.
It should always be on brand andnot in that like kitschy way of
be on brand, but like what'syour brand?
If your brand is, I actuallycare, it should feel like you
always care right.
So that means not, you know,making sure that your front desk
(20:24):
handles them well, or that thecommunication is consistent, and
that you're attentive, that youfollow desk handles them well,
or that the communication isconsistent and that you're
attentive, that you follow up orfollow through, that you refer
out when necessary or whatever'snecessary so that they always
feel cared for.
And I feel that the more peopleimplement something like that,
where they focus on thatpatient's journey, we see
(20:46):
changes across.
You know, I mean we could sayhumanity, but I don't want to
say I'm, I'm, I'm not, I'm notsaving humanity.
You know that's.
I don't think that's my, my,maybe that's my five one, who
knows.
But you know we start changinga system and we're changing it
by outcomes as opposed tofighting, you know,
unitedhealthcare or whoever wewant to fight you know, because
(21:09):
we can't change it.
We have to change it on thatlocal level.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yeah, one of the things that you said that I
think I quoted you on a podcastthat maybe is coming out this
week when we first met was wasbeing passionate about what you
do and allowing that passion tocome through and and really I
(21:34):
mean that's a whole, wholedifferent topic that we don't
really need to dive into of likediscovering your passion and
then and then creating a lifeand a and a vocation around that
.
But it really stuck out to mewhen I first met you because
it's just something obviouslythat really comes through just
speaking to you and and hearingyou speak about your business
and the way that you speak aboutyour business and the clients
(21:56):
and how you.
This ties in perfectly to howyou are showing up for your
clients or your patients orwhatever you want to call them
your people and and when you arepassionate about what you do
and when you believe in what youdo, and, obviously, your story
finding acupuncture as the toolthat really helped you the most
(22:20):
out of your pain and reallyshifted the trajectory of your
personal life.
That's very similar to my story.
Of course, the tools that I usein my business are the ones
that made the biggest differencein my life and in my healing
journey.
But I think that when weincorporate those into our full
(22:42):
life, that's where that passioncomes through and that's where
we can really show up.
It's not like you said, it'snot showing up for the bottom
line or just showing up like, oh, this is, you know, this is
just another patient, but you'rereally interested in their full
health, which is really thedirection that hopefully
(23:03):
everyone's going.
I don't know, but integrative.
You keep using the wordintegrative and holistic.
Like all of these words that weuse, it's not just about the,
it's not just about the backpain and oh, let me stick a
needle in it and then you'regoing to be cured.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Right, and you know, and I really appreciate you, you
know identifying that and youknow quoting me.
That's cool, it's like acitation, but but you know,
passion.
Passion is so important onmultiple levels that you just
talked about.
But at the same time, if youdon't want to be doing it, why
are you doing it?
Oh right, like why?
(23:40):
And it's one thing to be likewell, I got to pay the bills,
whatever.
It's a job, but these arepeople's lives.
It's not like oh, I go in andmake a widget and go home Like I
don't really care about thefactory.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Right, this is, this is like a profession.
And then, when I say this, I'mnot just talking about, like
acupuncture, I'm talking abouthealthcare in general.
I mean, you could be a Reikimaster, it doesn't matter, right
, when someone comes to you inpain, right and I'm not saying
physical pain, emotional pain oranything else To me, and I can
always speak for myself I feellike you have a moral obligation
(24:13):
to see them, to hear them,right, to help them or to do the
best you can or say, oh, ormaybe I can't help you because I
just don't have that skillset,but at least, being honest, with
them, not take their money.
And I've realized that the moreyou're just focused on the
patient, the happier you are,the better your practice is.
(24:39):
I mean, business rules stillapply, but you can do it with
heart and passion, as opposed tojust saying how do I get more
patients on the schedule?
You know my first teacher.
He told me he's what's calledDao Shi, which is like Chinese,
means like Taoist priest, butthe word priest is strange
because we think of like aCatholic priest.
It's not the same connotation.
(25:00):
It's someone who's committed tothe Tao right, which means that
that's their path.
And it's like Taoism right, theTao Te Ching, laoo tzu, all
that stuff.
And he, he always said don'tcount the patients on the
schedule because you'll see themas money.
And he said what happens isthey don't show up, they cancel,
because it's the wrong chi.
You know, when we talk aboutenergy, it's the wrong energy.
(25:22):
That you're, you're framingthat day.
It's like, at the end of theday, you can be like oh, I did
20 people's, great.
You know, it's perfectly fineto see what your, your outcomes
were, but don't come in and belike that's 20 people.
You know $300 a pop, that's.
You know like that's.
You know thousands of dollarstoday because, you'll find out,
you only made a thousand, whichis still great money, but you
know it's the wrong intent andeverything you'll do becomes
(25:47):
that intent.
And for so many people thatI've coached or done consulting,
that was like one of the firstthings I would have to change is
to stop looking at patientslike dollar signs.
Right, and it's hard to whenthe insurance industry gives you
a dollar sign, because there'ssome insurances that give me,
you know, 30 bucks and thatdoesn't cover payroll, and
(26:08):
there's others that give me 300bucks, you know.
Thankfully, somewhere in themiddle we hit an even number if
we, you know, can like balanceout that schedule, but it's hard
not to when.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
That's how they've created it and it comes through
differently because I've again,I've seen a lot of medical
professionals in the past yearand my favorites are are the
ones that are very present.
I think presence is a hugething actually listening and
(26:40):
seeing someone and listening totheir story and, again, like you
said, checking in with thememotionally and physically and,
you know, checking in on alllevels and the practitioners
that feel very present and feelyou can feel that again energy.
(27:06):
You can feel if somebody caresand you can feel if somebody is
just kind of checking you off asokay, this was my third patient
of the day, let's go on to thefourth.
You can truly feel that and Iwould also argue that that
really does play a role in yourhealing journey.
Like I would, I would arguethat you have good success rates
(27:30):
because you are passionateabout what you do, because you
genuinely care, and it's notjust about the insurance payout
or you know the-.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Yeah if you have passion, it means you're also
reading all the papers or thenewest books, so you're going to
have an understanding of thatdomain and you're going to be
excited when someone comes inwith something in that domain,
because you're into it you know,so you're going to have better
outcomes, you know, becausethat's what you want to do, and
you know.
You talked about seeing andhearing, and that's something
(28:02):
I've been saying a lot onpodcasts, because that's the
buzzwords, you know.
To see a person here, we allwant to do that, you know.
And then we talked about traumainformed therapy.
That's a buzzword now too, youknow.
It's very valid stuff, but Ifind that people are like, oh,
you know, I try to see and hearthem and you know, and I'm also
trauma informed and I meet themwhere they're at, and but when
(28:24):
you actually talk to them, like,well, how's that going?
It's like, well, you know, Igive them space to talk about
their stuff, and that's notexactly what it means.
When you want to connect withsomething or someone, in this
case, you need to actuallyconnect with them.
So it's the difference between,you know, listening to respond
versus listening to understand.
(28:46):
Right, and a lot of us listento respond, especially as
healthcare practitioners,because we're trained to be
protocolized, right.
So even if we don't want to,it's like oh, you fit out.
That's this trigger pointreferral pattern.
I know exactly what it is.
I'm tired of your story, nowlet's go and that's the wrong
intent and even though you'retrying, it happens to all of us.
(29:07):
So I'm not like knocking anyone, you know, or they're.
They're sharing their traumaand you're trying to understand
how it's going, but at the sametime you're like you can get
over this.
You know in your narrative, inyour head, right, and you're
like you, you're not seeing themfor who they are.
You're just trying to moveforward.
You're just trying to respondor actualize, as opposed to
listening to understand, asopposed to listening to
(29:28):
understand.
And then when you canunderstand someone, you know how
to engage them, you can givethem a response that they can
hear.
Right, because you have tounderstand them to know how to
speak to them so they can hearexactly what you're trying to
say so that you can lead them tohealth or whatever's necessary.
And I think, because of how ourlives are and because even, like
(29:51):
you know, in the spiritualworld we use the term spiritual
bypassing, it's like we'restarting to use these terms now,
all these buzzwords we'reactually bypassing what they
actually stand for, you know,and it's like I need a new term
for it.
I don't know, it's likecultural bypassing or something,
but it's.
It's a major crux of healthcareand the insurance industry
(30:15):
doesn't give anyone time toactually sit and connect with
people, so we throw that out.
But people that are moreintegrative and allied, that are
a little outside of that,usually have the time.
So it's something that, likeyou know, I've already said it
now on your podcast.
So I'd love people tounderstand that and be like wow,
how do I?
Even even in your own life,you're having problems in a
relationship when you're arguing.
(30:36):
Next time, seek to hear whatthey're saying before you try to
formulate the response.
Don't even have that responseyou had.
Just why are you saying that?
Let me understand it fully andtry.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
You are like just lighting me up so much right now
, and I am not saying I amperfect.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
I am not at all.
I'm definitely not perfect, notat all.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
This is much easier said than done, and I will also
add that it's so much easierwhen my sister comes to me and
tells me you know, I have thisargument with mom, or I have the
you know argument with myhusband, whatever.
So much easier to see thispattern in other people than
with yourself.
But isn't that the I mean, justthe lesson?
(31:24):
The underlying lesson of ourentire life is learning how to
be present and how to listen, tolisten rather than listen to
respond, and we get so stuck inthe yes, I hear you, but you're
not hearing business.
When we're able to practicethis, then you attract more
people that also practice this.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
So I mean everything is so connected and you keep
away the bad patients.
Yeah, they don't want to, youknow.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
It's true, energetically, you, I don't get
bad patients.
You know I don't, I don't, Imaybe I'm weird, I don't get
that patients.
I, you know there might bepatients that I'm and they're
there for shoulder pain.
It's not a big deal, um you seethe humanity of it right you
know, and then they can't reallyhave hatred towards them, even
(32:37):
if they're a little curmudgeon,right, or whatever it's like.
Yeah, you know I understand whyand it's fine, and they're not
angry at me, I didn't cause it.
And and also to your point thatyou were mentioning, the one
thing that I always use is theStoics say that the only thing
you can control is yourself,which means how you act, how you
think you can't control anyoneelse.
(32:59):
You can't make anyone doanything.
You could try, but they mightnot do it.
So the moment we startrealizing that, if we can
control ourselves which meanshow I hear people, how I choose
to interact with people, thewords I choose to use everything
changes, you know, and stoicismis very hard.
So, like you said, easier saidthan done.
(33:20):
Yeah.
But these things are so crucialto medicine and I actually
really love this conversationbecause we're talking about
things that people don't thinkapply to medicine.
Yes, right, and there is anenergetic side of it.
So you've seen my chart, so youprobably understand where all
this is coming from.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
So no, no well I yes yes and um, absolutely there's,
there's so many pieces of this.
We really think that a lot ofthings.
I mean, one of the reasons thatI love somatic work is because
we think that the mind and thebody are so disconnected and
(33:59):
they're actually so connectedand we think you know, like
these, how we're relating topeople, like what does that have
to do with medicine oracupuncture?
But really it's all connectedand we're all connected and and
and and.
Yes, your five one line is isshowing, but it's really that,
(34:19):
right, the five one profile isreally being able to bring it's
kind of like this.
I have a note from ourconversation.
You said, yeah, the five oneprofile is here to fuck shit up,
and I'm like, absolutely, thatis the five one profile and how
we see things, where they'rereally here to challenge how we
(34:39):
see things and how we're doingthings currently, and and I mean
that just shows so much in yourlife and your story of of how
and your business right of likehow you're really bringing this
completely different perspective, the people that are doing it
(35:00):
and bringing this whole new wayof thinking, and I so, I so
appreciate it, because we needto have more of these
conversations and we need tohave more of this conversation
of how things are interconnected, even pain we haven't talked
(35:21):
too much about, too much aboutthe pain aspect of on the
podcast.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
But we just did.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
True, true.
Well, let's make thatconnection Like how you treat
outwardly, you treat a lot ofthe physical symptoms right.
Pelvic, especially pelvic,which, if you know anything
about emotions, we hold emotionsmostly in our pelvic area.
(35:49):
I've always kind of learned Ialways speak of that as, like we
as women hold emotions in ourpelvic because that's our center
of creation, but honestly it'smen too, because that's your
center of where you give the 50%of creation right.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
I mean, you can go if you want to get energetic and
you know, creation happens thereon both genders or sexes, right
?
So no matter what, that rootchakra is there.
But then you know,unfortunately, if you look at
statistics, statistics, there'sa lot of trauma that occurs at
both sexes early on, whenthey're young, and then there's
(36:24):
also, through maturation, a lotof embarrassment of sexual
mature maturation.
Um, and first sexualexperiences, even if they're
positive, or you know, take awoman who's grown faster and
matured faster than their, youknow, classmates, you know, or a
boy that maybe had aunfortunate erection in class,
(36:46):
or something like that, you know, and these things, you get
these somatic anchorings and allthese other things and you get
shame and we hold it in certainareas and at the same time you
can hold, there's a phrase, theissue is in the tissues.
So, like you can, you can hold,you know you can be in a car
accident and maybe, you know,you banged up your shoulder a
little and it could be a decadelater and finally that shoulder
(37:07):
releases and you suddenly gohome and you have dreams of the
car accident or you start cryingon the table, you know, or you,
or you have a flashback.
You know, I had a scar releasednot too long ago and I had a
flashback just from it, and itwas nothing crazy, just popped
in my head.
I was like I haven't thoughtabout that in forever.
You know, there's definitelymore than we fully understand
(37:29):
about how the body, I guess,embodies emotions, you know.
So there's a lot when we'retalking about pain, and then
there's also things called likecentral sensilitation, which is
where, like the central nervoussystem I'm dumbing it down but
the central nervous system willkind of like hold on to pain,
even though the peripheral painsignal has been fixed.
(37:51):
So you have to like turn down,you know, certain segments of
the spinal column or the nervoussystem, and there's ways of
doing it but, essentially, itkind of the volume gets stuck at
an 11 and even after you fixthe issue, it's like, oh no,
there's still pain.
Right, it's like a phantom limb,almost it's not.
It's not how it works you know,anyone that's like academic
could be like, that's not how itworks, trying to make it simple
(38:12):
, right, yeah, um, you don'twant haters out there, but there
there's, there's so many things.
But you know, I think when welook at the body it's almost
like that hermetic axiom, asabove, so below right, there's
always reflections right In thebody.
So it's like we can look at itin a, you know, pure
neurological sense and you seethese, you know central
(38:33):
sensitization issues.
But we can also look at atstructural issues causing
emotional issues, or emotionalissues causing structural issues
, right, I can give you a greatexample.
If you have someone that hademotional issues growing up and
maybe they were ashamed, maybethey were too tall staying with
the same analogy so they startedbeing more hunched back, you
know, or rounded, and they'reholding their chest down right
(38:56):
and rolled over.
You get the rounded shoulderslike almost like bad computer
posture.
We've seen that.
Well, what's that do?
It sinks the chest in,respiration gets more shallow,
the nervous system becomes moresympathetic, right, so it gets
more fight or flight.
That's because that whole areaisn't getting the proper
stimulation.
You're getting improperrespiration exchange or the
exchange of carbon dioxide,oxygen, et cetera, and you start
(39:20):
having emotional symptoms,anxiety, right, stress issues,
stress response, sleeplessness.
Conversely, you can have aninjury that you start protecting
and rounding the shoulder andeventually you know you have
those things, or you're stucklike that from the emotions and
then you start having back pain,right.
(39:40):
So there's these, always thesereflections, and so when we're
looking at pain, you you mightcome to me for a simple back
pain, like your case I wassquatting and whatever and it
might literally just bestructural, but you've had it
for how long now?
Right, a while, and it keepscoming.
I you know, I don't think Icould speak for you, but I'm
sure there's definitely somefears and other things stuck
(40:01):
there.
At this point, you know, am Igoing to be like this?
What's it going to be like whenI'm 80?
you know all these things rightyeah so we have to address that
and it may just address on theirown, because if you suddenly
don't have that back pain, Iguarantee, guarantee they'll go
away.
Those fears and everything elsewill drift away with time,
right, but there's so much topain so much and I love that we
(40:28):
can actually talk about it onthis level as opposed to just
talking about structural.
You know this muscle, ohabsolutely yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
And I think that that's the layer of chronic pain
.
Is there's so much emotionallythat goes into that right, the
way that you address yourself,like, oh, I have a bad back,
what Like?
And I say this, I say it, youknow, like, well, I try to be
(40:57):
mindful of it, but of not saying, you know, not saying these
things, oh, I have a bad back.
Or we get stuck in thesestories of like, no, I can't
bend over to pick that up.
Will you go pick that up for me?
And there's so much fear there,there's so much fear for me I
will speak for myself there's alot of fear of re, re injuring
(41:21):
myself and, you know, notwanting to bend over and do the
thing and not causing like forme it's a lot of flexion.
So anything that you're, thatyou're bending or you know, and
then, and then there's all ofthe ways that we then, when
that's chronic, we then identifyas as the pain, so like, oh,
I'm just not flexible or I can't.
You know I can't do that andand I will speak from I'm, you
(41:44):
know, like, I know all of thisand I still am stuck in those
stories like nobody is perfect,and and there's so much work
that we can do, because I I knowthat I'm stuck in those stories
and I know that I'm stuck inthe fear and we're working on it
, you know.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
But that's the gift of being a healthcare
practitioner is you also learnby helping other people.
Those are the other reflectionsyou know.
So, like you say the same thingabout you know these stories
and narratives and they happento me still and I'm acutely
aware of them.
I have hearing.
I have hearing loss fromgrowing up in the music scene
and not protecting it.
You know, I mean I could hear,but my hearing is strange at
(42:25):
times and I become more used tobeing like, oh, I can't hear, oh
, I don't want to go to thatloud environment because it's
hard for me to hear.
You know differentiate voicesin a loud bar.
And I was like, well, there'sso many hacks that I have that I
can actually go out and hearand stuff.
But I got so used to saying Ican't hear.
And I can, I can hear.
I'm not, we're talking, I couldhear right now.
(42:45):
Right, you know, like there'sno problem.
But it becomes part of myidentity, like, oh, you know,
you become a curmudgeon about itor you start truncating your
life and you, you cut short yourhappiness.
I'm quite sure you can getsomething off the floor.
You might just have to do in adifferent direction, no problem,
you know.
Or if you know you got to liftsomething heavy, you get someone
else and you just time it likeI'm getting a heavy thing
(43:08):
dropped off, make sure someone'saround to help me pick it up.
Yeah, if I'm getting everythinga heavy, something dropped off
I'm making sure someone's aroundtoo, because I just don't want
to blow my back out at thispoint.
You know, like I've learned,I've seen.
I've seen enough people injuredthat I'm like you know I'm 45.
Now Let me be a little morewiser.
You know I'm done doing, youknow, prs on my deadlifts.
(43:32):
It's fun, I love it, but, likeI also know what my back feels
like after that you know I'mlike it's not not that important
to me
Speaker 1 (43:42):
yeah you know, being careful.
Being careful, I mean, isn't itfunny how, how, um, how our
mindset shifts as we get older?
But but being being mindful ofthe identities and the I.
I kind of started off thepodcast like what hats do you
want to show us today?
Like being careful of the hatsthat we fall under and maybe not
(44:06):
being careful but being mindfulreally being mindful of the
ways that we self-identify andthe ways that we show up, and
one of the things that you saidoh man, what was it?
It was before we hit record,but it was just something.
Oh no, maybe it was when werecorded.
You said my biggest pains werelike my biggest life lessons and
(44:27):
my biggest growth opportunities.
And really being mindful of theway that we identify, because
we can get very stuck right andlife is happening to me and I
have this back pain or I havethis hearing issue and right now
I can't go to the bar and Ijust might as well just stay
(44:49):
home, you know, for the rest ofmy life Like we can get very
stuck in the hats that we doallow ourselves to put on.
And being mindful of that.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
I speak of the gift of COVID, and at this point
we're about five, six years out,right?
I don't even know five years,something like that.
So, most listeners should beable to think about the gift of
COVID.
Right, it's definitely not agift.
People died.
It was a nightmare.
9-11 was not a gift.
The trauma and the PTSD that Ihad was not a gift 20 something,
(45:23):
25 years, 24 years.
Now I can say it's a giftbecause I see the changes it
forced in me and for many people, for COVID.
It allowed them to see theworld in a different way and
it's unique for everyone.
Or they realized how their lifemight have not been what they
wanted to be and they suddenlygot to sit on their couch.
They didn't want it, theydidn't like it.
(45:45):
But then they realized, whenthey start reintegrating the
world like how many people noware like, yeah, I work from home
at least one day a week now.
Yeah.
Is that not a gift?
To be able to be around yourkids or your dog or your loved
one you know, or any of thesethings?
Or they shifted their careers,or they started an at-home
business that started toflourish, or they just valued
their loved ones because theygot disconnected from them, you
(46:09):
know.
So, yeah, you know, I want tobe sure.
Covid was not a gift.
However, there's a gift.
However, there's a gift that wecould all find in it.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Yeah, I don't want to rely on you yeah, we, there's
always, there's always a silverlining in anything that happens
to us.
I, I might you know my quote, Ithink it's tony robbins, but
that's where I originally heardit but life is not happening to
you, it's happening for you.
And how is life happening foryou?
And really keeping that mindsetand that's, you know, that's
(46:41):
coming from a place where, likethis back thing, pain is a bitch
and it's very consuming, soit's not.
I think we can say that and belike, oh yeah, life's always
happening for me, and assumethat it's all roses and sunshine
and rainbows.
It's not and that's okay, andlife is still happening for you.
And how is this teaching youand growing you and expanding
(47:02):
you?
And you know, obviously in mybusiness it's.
It's a huge way that I can showup even greater because there's
that capacity that's expanded,but it's always happening.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Yeah, it makes you a better practitioner because you
understand suffering, maybe in adifferent way that your
patient's presenting, but youget it.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
When I was young and first started, I had no
suffering.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
I mean, sure, I had sinus issues, but was that
suffering?
I thought they were bad and,yeah, they can be debilitating,
but I got rid of them.
So is that really suffering?
No, no big deal.
You know, as I've gotten olderand have things that I'm like,
oh, this might stay, likehearing and other stuff that
might just be with me forever.
Oh, okay, that changes a lot ofthings, right, you know, having
(47:48):
you know other things that havehappened to me, where you know
I blog about when I lost mygallbladder and trying to keep
it there's a whole blog seriesover six months of me writing
and also gave me some newperspectives of the healthcare
system.
But you know, I thought I wasgoing to die because I was in
hospital, yellow, for three days, and you know I never thought
(48:09):
about death that close to me,right?
Sure, I wrote a will.
I don't know I'm supposed to dothat, right, you know.
But, like you know, I didn'tlike doing it and but then I was
like, oh, I might die, I don't,because I wasn't sure what was
happening and it happened to beJewish holidays, so there was
like no doctors in attendance,really, and I'm just sitting in
there and it was my birthday andI'm just like yellow, like a
(48:31):
highlighter, and I'm like Ithink I'm going to die, because
I didn't think it was mygallbladder, I had no pain and I
was like this is a liver tumor.
That's like I'm going througheverything in my head what it
could be, you know, and I had anultrasound and my gallbladder
was perfectly fine in theultrasound.
So I was like, oh, I'm going todie.
This is, this is death, that'sit.
You know, I'm shutting down awell, you know, after that I was
(48:52):
like I valued a lot of things.
So through our suffering welearn to, I think, value other
people's suffering as well, andthat helps us be more human.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Yeah, we get an invitation.
I always say here's a simplerexample.
I always say I will never notvalue a parking spot.
After living in the citybecause I had to pay like $150 a
month for a parking spot, noteven right in front of my house,
and after getting probably $500worth of parking tickets which
(49:30):
then made me pay for a parkingspot, I will never not value a
parking spot.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
And I don't steal in New York City, if you can get
that here.
I don't want to tell you what Iused to pay, but, yes, you
value these things suddenly when, like you know, if you're in
the suburbs, no problem findingparking, and it's really value
propositions and what we placeon things, and these are all
first world issues.
Yeah, but it's so funny howthey affect us, you know.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Yeah.
So tell me, tell me about yourbook.
I'm very curious knowing alittle bit about your story and
now hearing you, I would.
I'm just even more interestedin this realigning medicine.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Yeah, the book's called Realigning Medicine.
It came out February 25th, sonow it feels like a decade ago.
And you know the book came out.
I was teaching a practicemanagement class at a graduate
level and I got tired ofanswering the same questions and
you know they were the samequestions that I was also seeing
in people who are already inpractice.
So I was like I'm going towrite a book.
(50:33):
It was a very ADHD decision,you know.
Write a book.
It was a very ADHD decision,you know open head center.
Yeah, post post fact, I was likewe're never gonna get that
money back.
You know, you don't make moneywriting books unless you sell
gazillions of them.
And then and I didn't write itto make money, right, I needed
to get it off my chest.
But what I also realized is, asI was writing it, I realized a
(50:56):
lot of things that I was readyto move past as well.
You know like I'm like, oh, Iknow this lesson and now I'm
ready to do this again.
You know so I was, in a way itwas foreshadowing my boutique
practice.
It's kind of where the boutiquepractice came from, cause at
that time I was like, oh, I wasjust teaching and I was, you
know, running my practices.
And you know I realized somethings through writing down
(51:20):
everything I already knew andlearned from other people.
So the book, each chapter, isfocused on certain intents, like
the first one's a discoverychapter.
It's I have a vision exerciseand you know it's picturing
yourself in your ideal practice.
So you kind of startformulating a North Star what do
you really want?
And the analogy I use todescribe it is and I give this
(51:43):
to you know, my students is likewe do the vision exercise and
you know you might have thisvision of your ideal practice
and then you wind up working ina place where you have a lab
coat on, you're seeing like 60people a week, you're making
lots of money and you're runningaround and it's an awesome
practice and you're supersuccessful.
But your vision was seeing oneperson, one-on-one for 90
minutes.
(52:03):
You're wearing a robe and therewas a gong in the corner and
you were more like a shaman thanthe clinician and we're not
value like saying like one isbetter, no, that's what you
wanted.
So you're actually dissatisfiedin your practice.
No, that's what you wanted.
So you're actually dissatisfiedin your practice.
And then you're like well, howdo I get closer?
It doesn't mean, therefore, yougot to now destroy everything.
(52:25):
But we start saying what does itmean to want that?
What are those archetypes, whatare those emotions?
How do we start finding thosethings?
And then we start talking aboutthe patient journey.
We look at branding,communication, but not in the
marketing branding sense of likefonts and colors and all those
things.
Go get the marketers for that.
I say that in the book, youknow.
But you know, one of thelessons I learned is I didn't
(52:47):
know my practice early on, so Ihired a PR team to go do some
marketing.
You know, this was a long timeago and I was using my last
pennies.
I just knew I needed to get outthere and I didn't know how to
do it.
And they went and advertisedwhat they thought an
acupuncturist was.
And it was nothing like me and Iwas like, oh my God, and it was
(53:09):
the wrong patients and I feltembarrassed.
And then they had me go intoevents that I wanted nothing to
do with and like, and I didn'teven know why, because I didn't
know how to articulate what Iwas and make sure that
everything that people did forme or the stuff that I put on
social is close to how I wouldcommunicate and on brand Right
(53:31):
and on brands could be veryloose of who are you as a
practitioner, not.
What do you think people want tohear you say?
Right, and that's what a lot of.
What do you think people wantto hear you say, right, and
that's what a lot of people do?
Um, and so the whole book goesthrough there and it ends with
kind of like avoiding burnoutand kind of long term, like why
are you doing this long term?
But what?
What is your, your end goal?
(53:52):
Because there's not a 401k formost solo practitioners.
Eventually, hopefully, you say,oh, maybe I should get one of
those or whatever.
Right, there's no.
So what is the exit strategy?
What is that long-term goal?
Where are we going with it?
But it starts with that veryfirst vision exercise.
(54:13):
Right, because that long-termgoal is why are we doing this?
And then the goal is so the bookis kind of that and I actually
give zero answers.
They're literally stories ofthe craziness and me being a 5'1
and probably saying things thatpeople aren't excited about.
But this can apply to anon-clinician who's struggling
(54:35):
and not succeeding.
I remember when I first startedmaking more money than what I
was comfortable with, I startedthinking I was committing a
crime because I didn't come frommoney.
(54:58):
I never saw money and I waslike what do you do with this?
I also didn't know what to dowith it.
I was like the IRS is going tocome arrest me.
I don't know what I'm doing.
It's got to be something wrongand therefore I started kind of
self-sabotaging and we do thatin self-belief systems, limiting
belief systems.
I call them set points, butessentially they're limiting
belief systems.
They could come from trauma.
(55:18):
They can come from how we seeourselves.
Are you worthy of success?
Imposter syndrome, which ishuge in every healthcare
provider, but practically anyoneright.
When you put yourself out there, it's scary.
Yeah, very scary.
So I talk about these things sothat we can identify them,
because you know, if you can,what do they say?
(55:43):
Like when you're exercisingdemons, you have to know its
name first, right?
So if we know the problem now,we can pay attention to it.
Either we navigate around it orwe start dealing with it.
If we don't know it's there,well then we're possessed.
Yeah, yeah so that's the book ina nutshell, and I did hit
(56:05):
bestseller in small business.
So, as my marketing team said,update the link in for
best-selling author but you know, oh my gosh.
Yeah, in reality it was fun,though I was like, oh my god,
people bought my book yeah, ofcourse that feels good.
Speaker 1 (56:22):
I again, like you're saying, it's a very vulnerable
thing to be ourselves and youcan say that, as you know, a
social media presence, to showup authentically on social media
, to show up authentically inyour business, to show up
authentically in a relationship,on whatever level, it's a very
vulnerable thing to show up as100% ourselves and there's so
(56:45):
many layers to that.
Probably at some point when wewere younger, right, like
somebody told us we were tooloud, and now we're like, oh my
gosh, I'm too loud all the time.
That was me.
I have a very loud laugh, sonow I'm very self-conscious of
my laugh.
But there's these pieces, right, that we get.
It's very vulnerable to show upas ourselves and when we don't,
(57:07):
there's that disconnect.
That's what leads to burnout,because we're showing up as
someone else or the version ofourselves that we think other
people want from us and there'sthat lack of fulfillment and
connection and presence.
And so it is.
It is scary to be yourself andto write a book and and show up,
(57:29):
you know, as 100% like I'm notgoing to give you the answers
which is very different becauseactually, where we live in a
world where everyone is like letme tell you this is the right
answer and let me tell you why.
And I'm going to fix you.
And let me tell you why I rightanswer.
And let me tell you why.
And I'm going to fix you.
And let me tell you why.
Speaker 2 (57:44):
I don't know what's right for anyone.
Speaker 1 (57:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (57:47):
You know I can tell you what has worked for me and
people I've consulted for.
And good luck, that's it, right, yeah, but you know I believe
in it.
I know it works, Right, I'veseen it, But's not, you know.
But it was also very scary towrite because I put things in
there where I'm like, should Isay this, Like, is that okay?
You know, because I'm like Ihave to say certain things
(58:09):
because I need people tounderstand it.
I place no value judgment onanything, but I say some things
in there that I'm like oh, I'mgoing to get canceled, Right,
and they're not from a left orright position or from anything,
but people get upset when youpush buttons.
And you know, like I.
You know I talk about people'sInstagrams, right, you know.
Let's say, you have a thousandpeople on your Instagram and now
(58:31):
you decide to be a healthcarepractitioner.
That's a really great base ofpeople.
But you also have photos ofwhen you were 20 and you know,
and it might not be the mostappropriate photos, let's say,
and you know, now you're amassage therapist and you want
to know why you're gettingtouchy, feely guys, you know, or
girls, because you've a guyadvertising yourself with no
(58:53):
shirt on.
Yeah, and.
I talked about like how I hadselective Instagram feeds for my
practice management class and Ididn't screen them that well
and like the whole class beinglike, oh my God, and I'm like,
yeah, okay, well, here's whatyou don't do, you know, and I
was surprised and astonished andI'm like you know, people
sometimes just don't think thatpeople are going to scroll back,
(59:13):
or people scroll back and theysee who your cousins are and
they get a crush on you and theystalk your entire family.
What do you want to put outthere?
And that's up to you.
But I want to at least go andsay think about these things.
And it's very granular and it'svery small, but I've seen this
destroy people's practices orhave people shut down their
entire social presence becauseof very negative experiences
(59:37):
that had nothing to do with themother than they just didn't
think of.
You know, I wouldn't even seecensoring, just just, you know,
deciphering what they wantpublic versus not, because you
become more public, you know,and and if you're like I don't
care, then cool, now you know,and you'll get to go and have a
great time.
It's not a value judgment byany means yeah, yeah, that's all
(59:57):
in the book yeah love that andit's available anywhere.
Books are sold, including ebooks, so ebooks audible no, because
I didn't want to record, Ididn't want to read it.
Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
I you know you have a very soothing voice.
Actually, I feel like you woulddo a great job.
Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
Um, maybe I just didn't want to read my book, you
know.
And now I realize I can get aito read it for me and I'm like,
oh, maybe I should do theaudible book, but I'm, that
chapter is done, you know maybedo the Audible book, but that
chapter is done.
Maybe on the next book.
There's another book's 80% done.
It's a clinical book on fasciaand the treatment of it.
(01:00:35):
So with a co-author it's goingto be I'm very excited Hyper
niche.
So three people will buy thatbook.
It will not be a bestseller.
Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
It will still be great.
It will still be great Well,Jordan, thank you so much for
coming on the podcast.
Thank you for all of yourwisdom and connection for people
that want to follow up with you.
Speaking of social media, forthose of us not in New York or
Manhattan, Long Island, Brooklyn, how can we follow up?
Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
Yeah, well, if you're in any of the regions, reach
out.
You know we love meeting people.
We're talking, but J BarbaraLAC, licensed acupuncturist,
basically anywhere.
Any social platform.
I'm more active on some thanothers, but you could find me or
find my marketers and they'llfind me.
My main website isdrjordanbarbercom, so you can
(01:01:27):
always get my email, send me acontact form on there, and my
clinic is Dr Barber Clinic,which is now on the Upper West
Side.
It's relocated from Brooklynand I'm very excited to be
serving that community.
It's a very exciting area.
Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
Love that.
I love that I have someconnections there, because I'm
going to try to get them to comesee you, and I'm going to try
to come see you for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
I would love to at least give you a clinical
impression on that back, becauseI have ideas just based on what
you told me.
So if you are in the area,please, we'll do a follow-up
podcast on that yeah, actually Iwould love to.
Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
I, um, yeah, I would love to.
Anyway, um, we'll have to talk.
Last question you're standingon a stage, you have the
microphone for a minute and youhave the opportunity to share
any one message with the world.
What would that message be?
Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
Demand more, that's it.
Demand more for everything, foryourself.
Don't settle, right so, whetherit's healthcare from your
doctor, from your loved ones,stop settling.
Every time we settle, we make aconcession, and that doesn't
mean to be, like you know, amean person, right, like we're
(01:02:49):
talking about being reasonable.
But if we're all honest withourselves, we we we often avoid
conflict or we just accept that,especially with healthcare, you
know it's like oh well, youknow, that's what I'm going to
get.
I have crappy insurance.
No, just because you havecrappy insurance, you can still
demand more, right?
So be your own advocate anddemand more.
Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
Love that.
Thank you so much, Jordan.
This was such a funconversation it's been awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
I hope to talk to you soon.
Hello, welcome back to the podcast Journey to Well.
So today I am joined with DrJordan Barber.
He is a chronic pain expert andacupuncturist based in New York
, which I love that's where Icame from.
So we are going to be talkingabout a wide variety of things
(00:25):
Obviously, your background,Jordan, and overall health and
wellness and kind of other waysthat we can advocate for
ourselves outside of just goingto the doctor, going to the
ortho.
So before we dive into theconversation, I would love for
you to introduce yourself whathats you want to kind of put on.
(00:45):
In the introduction I also willsay Jordan is a 5'1 emotional
generator in human design.
So you know we talk a lot abouthuman design on the podcast, so
I want to throw that out in thebeginning.
But, Jordan, thank you so muchfor coming on and tell us who
you are, what you love, whatyou're passionate about.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well, Hannah, I'm super excited and I guess it
should be a disclaimer that 5.1is going to be quite clear and
if anyone knows about 5.1,.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
you know the heretic is there, my mom's a 5.1, so I
can't wait to talk about thatwith you.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I love to explore a lot of that.
So you know, I guess the 5.1,let's start with that because I
grew up as a punk rocker betweenSt Mark's Place down in New
York City and on Long Island.
So right there that was.
That, you know, desire to findsomething deeper and to make
(01:43):
change Right Grew up in the itworld.
Um, I had my first job at 15 ina company that was going ipo.
During the dot-com boom wentthrough 9 11.
I was there and decided to makea life change because of a lot
of health issues not from 9 11,thankfully, but you know the
(02:04):
lifestyle that was leading at 20, 21 years old down in the
financial district, you know,wasn't healthy for me and a lot
of stuff transpired.
But at the end of the day Iwound up in integrated medicine
because acupuncture aftersurgeries and everything else
was the only thing that gave merelief and I became interested.
(02:24):
And a little background theretoo, my, you know, as, like a 15
, 16 year old, the job I wantedto have was to be a massage
therapist and a tarot reader.
Hey right, which you know is avery teenage kind of idea, but
because I received medicalmassage because my back was
(02:47):
always hurting and stuff becauseI was in front of computers or
I was in mosh pits I hadinsurance that covered it and I
thought it was like profound andI really loved how, like you
know, there was like a spiritualside of connecting with people
and I was always a veryspiritual kid and I was always
into tarot cards and I read foreveryone in high school and I
was like if I could just do this, this would be great.
(03:08):
And I lost myself a bit, youknow, in my early twenties,
working in the financialdistricts and in IT, and
thankfully, you know, talk aboutthe gift of 9-11, all the
tragedies in my life have gifts.
The gift, you know, was that itallowed me to reconnect and
(03:29):
find myself and set me on theright journey, because I was
craving the things that I lostand I was aware of it.
So I found it, you know, now,at 45, you know, 20 years, in
some form of clinical practice.
So, yeah, that's that's theabnormal version of my story,
(03:50):
but I think that's the betterone for a five one introduction.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
I love that.
We want the abnormal.
We don't want the boring.
We like the different.
What was going on with yourback?
You said acupuncture was theonly thing that helped.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
So my back was pretty good.
I mean, I just always had acampaign, a campaigns just from
like computers and I, you know Irode my bike a lot and I fell
off the bike a lot.
You know I did martial arts,all these different things, but
when I started really working ina financial district I was
living off of, you know, foodcarts and you know steak dinners
and going to windows on theworld you know, every Friday and
(04:30):
drinking like a fish.
And I grew up in the musicscene and I'm still partially
involved in it and you knowthose late nights were rough.
I was burning the candle up allfence shall we say, you know, I
was in bands, I toured, I DJed,I did all those things.
So there wasn't much left inthat tank and I started having a
(04:50):
lot of sinus issues.
I was sick from like Novemberto it had to be summer, even
spring, because allergies wouldbe bad.
I had sinus surgeries and allthese things.
Nothing worked um.
Within a month, and actually Iwoke up from a dream with the
(05:11):
word acupuncture.
I obviously knew what it was,but I didn't know.
It was like a real thing.
That would be like 2002,somewhere around there.
Maybe I'm thinking, and youknow, I didn't even know how to
find like, is that a real thing,like you know?
So remember googling and Ifound a school and I figured
well, if they teach it, theyhave to be real, they won't kill
(05:33):
me.
Um, so I went to like theprofessional clinics at the
school, which later became myschool, and, um, within a month,
like 80 percent of my symptomswere gone.
Wow.
So you know it's huge and it wasdiet, lifestyle, some herbs and
acupuncture.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Okay, okay.
So for people I mean I justsaid this before we hit record
living in this world like I grewup, my mom actually worked at
an acupuncturist's office.
So I grew up like I hadacupuncture when I was in high
school and I grew up knowing,knowing about it what it is.
But for those of us that arelistening that maybe, like you
(06:14):
have heard the word but you'relike what the heck actually is
it, maybe you even know youstick needles in your body but
like what is the point of it?
What does it actually do?
Could you give a brief introfor that?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
You know, sure Besides the needles yeah,
besides, everyone thinks of theneedles and it's like being a
dentist, right.
It's like how do you selldentistry, right?
You know, it's like you gobecause you need it, right?
Yeah, you know, in the US theterm acupuncture has become a
larger term to describe aprofession, which is the
(06:47):
profession that encompasses EastAsian medicine or Chinese
medicine.
There's arguments of like whatwords we're using.
We used to use the wordoriental medicine, but that word
is becoming a bit passe and wedon't like it anymore and we
don't tend to like it anymore.
So we say there's four pillarsto the medicine, diet and
(07:09):
lifestyle being a major pillar.
What you put in your mouth, soeating, herbs, et cetera, things
that you do to the body, sothat can be body work,
manipulations of the bones andjoints.
Acupuncture, something you doto the body, something called
moxibustion, which is burning ofmugwort and medicinal herbs on
or near the body to heat it.
It burns in the infraredspectrum, so it has deep effects
(07:32):
.
And also the oils that aresecreted from it, increased
leukocytes, right or white bloodcells in the body.
So they have all thesedifferent effects on the body.
And then the last is somethingthat we call qigong, now a
tradition called daoyin, whichqigong means to work one's qi,
which is what we loosely callenergy in English, but energy is
(07:53):
like the worst word if you askme, but we all know what we mean
at least.
But ultimately, in medicine,energy is much more about
metabolism, but in a largersense of how things interrelate
and have effects on each other.
Right, so we work themetabolism in a relationship of
things, including the subtleenergies, but as well as you
(08:13):
know how our nervous system'sfunctioning and everything else.
And then dahlia means to guideand lead, or guiding and leading
the body into the direction itneeds to go.
So these are more meditative orexercises, think of it like
yoga, yoga asanas with breathand other things.
All of those together is theprofession of acupuncture.
(08:35):
And then you have the varietiesof Korea, japan, thailand,
which has a mixture of Ayurvedaand Chinese medicine, tibetan
medicine, which is Chinesemedicine plus its native
medicine turned into Tibetanmedicine, and there's all these
varieties, but they have astrong root.
So there's these.
(08:56):
You know there's a core ofChinese medicine and it spreads
out.
So you will always kind of geta separate answer from everyone
you ask.
Yeah that would be the closestthat everyone would probably
agree to.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
I mean, you just taught me a lot, I didn't know
all that.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
But there are needles too.
There are needles.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Very, very cool.
I mean I've definitely hadacupuncture done.
My massage therapist also doesacupuncture, so more of just the
needle side of things, I didn'tknow that there was the three
pillars.
So when you and I know that youhave your own kind of brick and
mortar boutique acupunctureoffice, well, before I ask
(09:40):
questions, tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Well, I love using the word boutique, because it's
just it's.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
I love that you use it.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
And you know the reason why I use it is so I have
.
I have several differentoffices.
At one point I had ninelocations.
Um, I've pared down becausethat is not for me.
Um, there's a less stress thatcomes with that.
Um, so I have four integrativemedicine offices focused on
orthopedics and rehab.
Integrative meaning we havephysical therapy, medical
(10:08):
doctors, massage therapists andwe create care plans and help
people, and that's out on LongIsland.
But for me, I wanted a boutiquepractice, a practice where I
can do the things I love to dooutside of the insurance
industry, because my otheroffices are part of the
insurance industry, because weneed to give people access and
(10:29):
if their insurance is paying forit, then we have to have a way.
But we also have to have a wayto have fun, especially when the
insurance industries are notinterested.
My boutique clinic is focused ontreatment of pain still, which
is my doctoral focus, but with asubspecialty of pelvic floor
dysfunction.
And you know I take a widedefinition of pelvic floor.
(10:52):
Pelvic floor is anything fromyour diaphragm down to your knee
, because all those things havean effect on the true pelvic
floor.
So, and pelvic floordysfunction can be sexual
dysfunction, painful intercourse, urinary issues, bladder issues
, prolapse, you know, just painin the pelvic floor region,
(11:15):
numbness and these things.
They're getting more awareness.
60% of women will experiencepelvic floor dysfunction in
their life.
About 16 to 20% of males.
The differentiating factorsbecause of pregnancy.
There's a lot more that canhappen.
So there's a lot more room forthings to go awry.
(11:36):
But there's more awarenessbeing focused on it now, but
there's still not a lot ofpractitioners out there focusing
on it.
You see it big in the physicaltherapy world, but for me I
focus on dry needling, which isessentially just still using the
needles to regulate the nervoussystem, regulate or break free
(11:58):
of fascia scar tissue in thepelvic floor, as well as
decrease hypertonicity, whichare tight muscles, and also
innervate muscles that are nolonger being innervated because
of neurological dysfunction.
So there's a lot we can do withthe needles and before anyone
(12:20):
asks yes, the needles go downthere, so not all the time, but
it's a question, you know.
Uh, people are very thankful ifyou can make the pain go away
pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, um, does something have to happen for
this pain to occur, likeobviously you spoke of pregnancy
?
Um, does something happen orcan?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
A lot of my pelvic floor dysfunction that I I've
seen, especially early on, whichgot me interested in it was
adolescence and people in theirtwenties.
Obviously you know, especiallyin adolescence, no history of
pregnancy.
They were athletes and so thinkI mean we know, if you do a
(12:58):
squat, there's you're, you'reusing your core and you're
tightening that pelvic floor andyou're engaging those
hamstrings and everything else.
Well, what if it doesn'trelease?
What if you also have somepostural issues?
What if you have some diaphragmissues?
And because the diaphragm thinkof the pelvic floor as the
opposite diaphragm they contractand relax opposite of each
(13:21):
other.
So we're supposed to, and ifone's tight, the other one
doesn't release.
So you start seeing these weirdanomalous symptoms, whether
there's pain or numbness, youknow, or you know sensations of
bladder fullness, you knowurgency, need to pee, but like
(13:42):
then there's nothing there andit's just the nerves just
misfiring because the musclesare tight around them.
So I'm seeing it.
But because of the lack ofawareness and if you go to your
gp, your general practitioner,they're just like I don't know,
maybe they'll send you to pt andhopefully the pt identifies it,
but it might also look likeback pain and so we don't think
about it.
(14:02):
that's's going to be my questionyeah, well that's why I take
the wider view, because I saythe pelvic floor is from that
diaphragm to the knee and I canmake it the ankle if you really
want, because of how it affectsthe biomechanics and kinetic
chain.
But you know.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
You're speaking my language.
I told you I've been havingback, kind of chronic like you
deal with chronic back pain.
It started when I was younger.
I was doing back squats at thegym and just went down the wrong
way, felt like I just pulledevery muscle in my back and ever
since, you know, we have flareups and I've been in a terrible
(14:41):
one the past few months and thenI was walking down the stairs
completely sober, mind you, inthe dark, though, skipped the
last step, sprained my ankle,and we've always my mom and I
have always really talked aboutthe alignment of the ankle, and
I would love to hear yourperspective of this, because one
of the things that I we kind oftalked about like what, what is
(15:06):
this like underlying topic ofthe podcast, what do we want it
to be?
And one of the things that Ireally love talking about is is
the interconnectedness ofeverything, and you've talked
about a few times you've alreadysaid your nervous system and
regulating your nervous systemand and relaxing the muscles,
and you know things firing inthe same way, and so my mom and
I have talked about thealignment of your ankles.
(15:28):
Could that affect the alignmentof your hips and your posture,
which then affects the alignmentof your back and all of that.
So it was interesting that yousaid ankles.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, no, I mean 100% .
I mean all you have to do isstand up without your shoes on,
or I mean even with your shoeson, and roll an ankle in and see
how your hip shifts.
Yeah.
Now, if your ankle is stuck inthat position, every time you
step you're reinforcing thatshift and then what'll happen is
the fascia will tighten, thatstuff that looks like when you
eat chicken or some meat and yousee that thin stuff around it.
(16:01):
That's called fascia.
Well, that stuff is essentiallythe thing that separates the
muscles and allows there to beglide and also creates a
stabilization network, and it'sa single sheath.
It wraps around every organ,every nerve, every single thing.
Right, there's main sheaths ofit, but they're all
interconnected and there's atheory called the biotensegrity
(16:22):
theory, which is theinterconnectedness and how all
these little things can play outin larger systems within the
body.
But certainly an ankle injury,especially if someone's you know
running after that or you knowstill being, you know, athletic
after spraining their ankle,which is very common will throw
(16:46):
off their back and then theymight have hip pain, you know,
and no one thinks about theankle, and you can release the
hip and then it comes back.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
It's like well, it's because the ankle is off, which
is so interesting, Again, youknow, talking about like your
doctor and even like anorthopedic doctor.
I mentioned it to them and theyjust have.
They're like, oh well, Iwouldn't worry about that right
now.
Like, just focus on your backgetting better and nothing.
And I don't say that withhatred or anything.
(17:10):
I mean we can have a wholeconversation about like
education and the traditionalmedicine system and all medical
fields, but nothing bad withmalice.
I'm not saying that with malice, but it's just another kind of
looping back to the importanceof knowing your other options.
And that was one of the reasonsthat I wanted to have you on
(17:32):
this podcast and have aconversation with you, because I
don't think that we have a lotof education and a lot of
opportunity to, I don't know,maybe awareness I don't really
know what it is.
Maybe you have a better ideajust being in your field so I
(17:53):
mean there's a lot I can say.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
you know, when I first started out, um, the
medical community was notinterested in acupuncture.
Wow, you know, the mostaccepting people were just kind
of like I don't know, know, Idon't think you'll die, and that
was like basically like goodluck.
I have seen a massive shift Now.
Mind you, I'm in a metropolitanarea, so there's a market
(18:17):
demand for it, stronger,stronger consumer demand for any
integrative modality, butacupuncture being one of the
larger in-demand modalitiesright now.
So market demand does dictatewhat the the where the attention
goes.
So they're more curious andpatients just say well, you know
, I got better One of my majorthings, more and more now.
(18:41):
I mean, you know I mentioned Ihave integrative offices out
East on Long Island, but in, inmy boutique clinic, everything
that I do is focused on careplans.
I want to know, especially forpelvic health.
I want to know who your pelvicfloor therapist is, because it's
not me alone that's going tohelp you, you know.
Or who your urologist is oryour gyno, whoever the referring
(19:01):
physician is.
I want to make sure that youhave a team and what I realized
is the more that we work inteams, the more I find
clinicians that see the value ofintegrative approaches, where
we become much more outcomebased and we become much more
focused on the patient, and it'sjust a totally different way of
(19:21):
doing medicine right.
So through that becomesawareness and more and more
clinicians want to know what thesuccessful people are doing and
they realize they're focusingon their patients outcomes as
opposed to focusing on theirbottom line, and outcome always
feeds bottom line.
You're going to make money ifyou get people better, so it's
(19:42):
like you don't have to focus onthat If you can get people
better and people have a reallypositive experience.
And this is one of the thingsthat I wrote about in my book,
which is more focused onpractice management, but it's
really about the patient journey.
Successful practitioners havereally good patient journeys and
what I mean by the journey isfrom the moment they hear about
(20:02):
you to the last time they talkto you or they leave your clinic
discharged or your coachingpractice or whatever it is.
It should always be on brand andnot in that like kitschy way of
be on brand, but like what'syour brand?
If your brand is, I actuallycare, it should feel like you
always care right.
So that means not, you know,making sure that your front desk
(20:24):
handles them well, or that thecommunication is consistent, and
that you're attentive, that youfollow desk handles them well,
or that the communication isconsistent and that you're
attentive, that you follow up orfollow through, that you refer
out when necessary or whatever'snecessary so that they always
feel cared for.
And I feel that the more peopleimplement something like that,
where they focus on thatpatient's journey, we see
(20:46):
changes across.
You know, I mean we could sayhumanity, but I don't want to
say I'm, I'm, I'm not, I'm notsaving humanity.
You know that's.
I don't think that's my, my,maybe that's my five one, who
knows.
But you know we start changinga system and we're changing it
by outcomes as opposed tofighting, you know,
unitedhealthcare or whoever wewant to fight you know, because
(21:09):
we can't change it.
We have to change it on thatlocal level.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yeah, one of the things that you said that I
think I quoted you on a podcastthat maybe is coming out this
week when we first met was wasbeing passionate about what you
do and allowing that passion tocome through and and really I
(21:34):
mean that's a whole, wholedifferent topic that we don't
really need to dive into of likediscovering your passion and
then and then creating a lifeand a and a vocation around that
.
But it really stuck out to mewhen I first met you because
it's just something obviouslythat really comes through just
speaking to you and and hearingyou speak about your business
and the way that you speak aboutyour business and the clients
(21:56):
and how you.
This ties in perfectly to howyou are showing up for your
clients or your patients orwhatever you want to call them
your people and and when you arepassionate about what you do
and when you believe in what youdo, and, obviously, your story
finding acupuncture as the toolthat really helped you the most
(22:20):
out of your pain and reallyshifted the trajectory of your
personal life.
That's very similar to my story.
Of course, the tools that I usein my business are the ones
that made the biggest differencein my life and in my healing
journey.
But I think that when weincorporate those into our full
(22:42):
life, that's where that passioncomes through and that's where
we can really show up.
It's not like you said, it'snot showing up for the bottom
line or just showing up like, oh, this is, you know, this is
just another patient, but you'rereally interested in their full
health, which is really thedirection that hopefully
(23:03):
everyone's going.
I don't know, but integrative.
You keep using the wordintegrative and holistic.
Like all of these words that weuse, it's not just about the,
it's not just about the backpain and oh, let me stick a
needle in it and then you'regoing to be cured.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Right, and you know, and I really appreciate you, you
know identifying that and youknow quoting me.
That's cool, it's like acitation, but but you know,
passion.
Passion is so important onmultiple levels that you just
talked about.
But at the same time, if youdon't want to be doing it, why
are you doing it?
Oh right, like why?
(23:40):
And it's one thing to be likewell, I got to pay the bills,
whatever.
It's a job, but these arepeople's lives.
It's not like oh, I go in andmake a widget and go home Like I
don't really care about thefactory.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Right, this is, this is like a profession.
And then, when I say this, I'mnot just talking about, like
acupuncture, I'm talking abouthealthcare in general.
I mean, you could be a Reikimaster, it doesn't matter, right
, when someone comes to you inpain, right and I'm not saying
physical pain, emotional pain oranything else To me, and I can
always speak for myself I feellike you have a moral obligation
(24:13):
to see them, to hear them,right, to help them or to do the
best you can or say, oh, ormaybe I can't help you because I
just don't have that skillset,but at least, being honest, with
them, not take their money.
And I've realized that the moreyou're just focused on the
patient, the happier you are,the better your practice is.
(24:39):
I mean, business rules stillapply, but you can do it with
heart and passion, as opposed tojust saying how do I get more
patients on the schedule?
You know my first teacher.
He told me he's what's calledDao Shi, which is like Chinese,
means like Taoist priest, butthe word priest is strange
because we think of like aCatholic priest.
It's not the same connotation.
(25:00):
It's someone who's committed tothe Tao right, which means that
that's their path.
And it's like Taoism right, theTao Te Ching, laoo tzu, all
that stuff.
And he, he always said don'tcount the patients on the
schedule because you'll see themas money.
And he said what happens isthey don't show up, they cancel,
because it's the wrong chi.
You know, when we talk aboutenergy, it's the wrong energy.
(25:22):
That you're, you're framingthat day.
It's like, at the end of theday, you can be like oh, I did
20 people's, great.
You know, it's perfectly fineto see what your, your outcomes
were, but don't come in and belike that's 20 people.
You know $300 a pop, that's.
You know like that's.
You know thousands of dollarstoday because, you'll find out,
you only made a thousand, whichis still great money, but you
know it's the wrong intent andeverything you'll do becomes
(25:47):
that intent.
And for so many people thatI've coached or done consulting,
that was like one of the firstthings I would have to change is
to stop looking at patientslike dollar signs.
Right, and it's hard to whenthe insurance industry gives you
a dollar sign, because there'ssome insurances that give me,
you know, 30 bucks and thatdoesn't cover payroll, and
(26:08):
there's others that give me 300bucks, you know.
Thankfully, somewhere in themiddle we hit an even number if
we, you know, can like balanceout that schedule, but it's hard
not to when.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
That's how they've created it and it comes through
differently because I've again,I've seen a lot of medical
professionals in the past yearand my favorites are are the
ones that are very present.
I think presence is a hugething actually listening and
(26:40):
seeing someone and listening totheir story and, again, like you
said, checking in with thememotionally and physically and,
you know, checking in on alllevels and the practitioners
that feel very present and feelyou can feel that again energy.
(27:06):
You can feel if somebody caresand you can feel if somebody is
just kind of checking you off asokay, this was my third patient
of the day, let's go on to thefourth.
You can truly feel that and Iwould also argue that that
really does play a role in yourhealing journey.
Like I would, I would arguethat you have good success rates
(27:30):
because you are passionateabout what you do, because you
genuinely care, and it's notjust about the insurance payout
or you know the-.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Yeah if you have passion, it means you're also
reading all the papers or thenewest books, so you're going to
have an understanding of thatdomain and you're going to be
excited when someone comes inwith something in that domain,
because you're into it you know,so you're going to have better
outcomes, you know, becausethat's what you want to do, and
you know.
You talked about seeing andhearing, and that's something
(28:02):
I've been saying a lot onpodcasts, because that's the
buzzwords, you know.
To see a person here, we allwant to do that, you know.
And then we talked about traumainformed therapy.
That's a buzzword now too, youknow.
It's very valid stuff, but Ifind that people are like, oh,
you know, I try to see and hearthem and you know, and I'm also
trauma informed and I meet themwhere they're at, and but when
(28:24):
you actually talk to them, like,well, how's that going?
It's like, well, you know, Igive them space to talk about
their stuff, and that's notexactly what it means.
When you want to connect withsomething or someone, in this
case, you need to actuallyconnect with them.
So it's the difference between,you know, listening to respond
versus listening to understand.
(28:46):
Right, and a lot of us listento respond, especially as
healthcare practitioners,because we're trained to be
protocolized, right.
So even if we don't want to,it's like oh, you fit out.
That's this trigger pointreferral pattern.
I know exactly what it is.
I'm tired of your story, nowlet's go and that's the wrong
intent and even though you'retrying, it happens to all of us.
(29:07):
So I'm not like knocking anyone, you know, or they're.
They're sharing their traumaand you're trying to understand
how it's going, but at the sametime you're like you can get
over this.
You know in your narrative, inyour head, right, and you're
like you, you're not seeing themfor who they are.
You're just trying to moveforward.
You're just trying to respondor actualize, as opposed to
listening to understand, asopposed to listening to
(29:28):
understand.
And then when you canunderstand someone, you know how
to engage them, you can givethem a response that they can
hear.
Right, because you have tounderstand them to know how to
speak to them so they can hearexactly what you're trying to
say so that you can lead them tohealth or whatever's necessary.
And I think, because of how ourlives are and because even, like
(29:51):
you know, in the spiritualworld we use the term spiritual
bypassing, it's like we'restarting to use these terms now,
all these buzzwords we'reactually bypassing what they
actually stand for, you know,and it's like I need a new term
for it.
I don't know, it's likecultural bypassing or something,
but it's.
It's a major crux of healthcareand the insurance industry
(30:15):
doesn't give anyone time toactually sit and connect with
people, so we throw that out.
But people that are moreintegrative and allied, that are
a little outside of that,usually have the time.
So it's something that, likeyou know, I've already said it
now on your podcast.
So I'd love people tounderstand that and be like wow,
how do I?
Even even in your own life,you're having problems in a
relationship when you're arguing.
(30:36):
Next time, seek to hear whatthey're saying before you try to
formulate the response.
Don't even have that responseyou had.
Just why are you saying that?
Let me understand it fully andtry.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
You are like just lighting me up so much right now
, and I am not saying I amperfect.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
I am not at all.
I'm definitely not perfect, notat all.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
This is much easier said than done, and I will also
add that it's so much easierwhen my sister comes to me and
tells me you know, I have thisargument with mom, or I have the
you know argument with myhusband, whatever.
So much easier to see thispattern in other people than
with yourself.
But isn't that the I mean, justthe lesson?
(31:24):
The underlying lesson of ourentire life is learning how to
be present and how to listen, tolisten rather than listen to
respond, and we get so stuck inthe yes, I hear you, but you're
not hearing business.
When we're able to practicethis, then you attract more
people that also practice this.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
So I mean everything is so connected and you keep
away the bad patients.
Yeah, they don't want to, youknow.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
It's true, energetically, you, I don't get
bad patients.
You know I don't, I don't, Imaybe I'm weird, I don't get
that patients.
I, you know there might bepatients that I'm and they're
there for shoulder pain.
It's not a big deal, um you seethe humanity of it right you
know, and then they can't reallyhave hatred towards them, even
(32:37):
if they're a little curmudgeon,right, or whatever it's like.
Yeah, you know I understand whyand it's fine, and they're not
angry at me, I didn't cause it.
And and also to your point thatyou were mentioning, the one
thing that I always use is theStoics say that the only thing
you can control is yourself,which means how you act, how you
think you can't control anyoneelse.
(32:59):
You can't make anyone doanything.
You could try, but they mightnot do it.
So the moment we startrealizing that, if we can
control ourselves which meanshow I hear people, how I choose
to interact with people, thewords I choose to use everything
changes, you know, and stoicismis very hard.
So, like you said, easier saidthan done.
(33:20):
Yeah.
But these things are so crucialto medicine and I actually
really love this conversationbecause we're talking about
things that people don't thinkapply to medicine.
Yes, right, and there is anenergetic side of it.
So you've seen my chart, so youprobably understand where all
this is coming from.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
So no, no well I yes yes and um, absolutely there's,
there's so many pieces of this.
We really think that a lot ofthings.
I mean, one of the reasons thatI love somatic work is because
we think that the mind and thebody are so disconnected and
(33:59):
they're actually so connectedand we think you know, like
these, how we're relating topeople, like what does that have
to do with medicine oracupuncture?
But really it's all connectedand we're all connected and and
and and.
Yes, your five one line is isshowing, but it's really that,
(34:19):
right, the five one profile isreally being able to bring it's
kind of like this.
I have a note from ourconversation.
You said, yeah, the five oneprofile is here to fuck shit up,
and I'm like, absolutely, thatis the five one profile and how
we see things, where they'rereally here to challenge how we
(34:39):
see things and how we're doingthings currently, and and I mean
that just shows so much in yourlife and your story of of how
and your business right of likehow you're really bringing this
completely different perspective, the people that are doing it
(35:00):
and bringing this whole new wayof thinking, and I so, I so
appreciate it, because we needto have more of these
conversations and we need tohave more of this conversation
of how things are interconnected, even pain we haven't talked
(35:21):
too much about, too much aboutthe pain aspect of on the
podcast.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
But we just did.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
True, true.
Well, let's make thatconnection Like how you treat
outwardly, you treat a lot ofthe physical symptoms right.
Pelvic, especially pelvic,which, if you know anything
about emotions, we hold emotionsmostly in our pelvic area.
(35:49):
I've always kind of learned Ialways speak of that as, like we
as women hold emotions in ourpelvic because that's our center
of creation, but honestly it'smen too, because that's your
center of where you give the 50%of creation right.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
I mean, you can go if you want to get energetic and
you know, creation happens thereon both genders or sexes, right
?
So no matter what, that rootchakra is there.
But then you know,unfortunately, if you look at
statistics, statistics, there'sa lot of trauma that occurs at
both sexes early on, whenthey're young, and then there's
(36:24):
also, through maturation, a lotof embarrassment of sexual
mature maturation.
Um, and first sexualexperiences, even if they're
positive, or you know, take awoman who's grown faster and
matured faster than their, youknow, classmates, you know, or a
boy that maybe had aunfortunate erection in class,
(36:46):
or something like that, you know, and these things, you get
these somatic anchorings and allthese other things and you get
shame and we hold it in certainareas and at the same time you
can hold, there's a phrase, theissue is in the tissues.
So, like you can, you can hold,you know you can be in a car
accident and maybe, you know,you banged up your shoulder a
little and it could be a decadelater and finally that shoulder
(37:07):
releases and you suddenly gohome and you have dreams of the
car accident or you start cryingon the table, you know, or you,
or you have a flashback.
You know, I had a scar releasednot too long ago and I had a
flashback just from it, and itwas nothing crazy, just popped
in my head.
I was like I haven't thoughtabout that in forever.
You know, there's definitelymore than we fully understand
(37:29):
about how the body, I guess,embodies emotions, you know.
So there's a lot when we'retalking about pain, and then
there's also things called likecentral sensilitation, which is
where, like the central nervoussystem I'm dumbing it down but
the central nervous system willkind of like hold on to pain,
even though the peripheral painsignal has been fixed.
(37:51):
So you have to like turn down,you know, certain segments of
the spinal column or the nervoussystem, and there's ways of
doing it but, essentially, itkind of the volume gets stuck at
an 11 and even after you fixthe issue, it's like, oh no,
there's still pain.
Right, it's like a phantom limb,almost it's not.
It's not how it works you know,anyone that's like academic
could be like, that's not how itworks, trying to make it simple
(38:12):
, right, yeah, um, you don'twant haters out there, but there
there's, there's so many things.
But you know, I think when welook at the body it's almost
like that hermetic axiom, asabove, so below right, there's
always reflections right In thebody.
So it's like we can look at itin a, you know, pure
neurological sense and you seethese, you know central
(38:33):
sensitization issues.
But we can also look at atstructural issues causing
emotional issues, or emotionalissues causing structural issues
, right, I can give you a greatexample.
If you have someone that hademotional issues growing up and
maybe they were ashamed, maybethey were too tall staying with
the same analogy so they startedbeing more hunched back, you
know, or rounded, and they'reholding their chest down right
(38:56):
and rolled over.
You get the rounded shoulderslike almost like bad computer
posture.
We've seen that.
Well, what's that do?
It sinks the chest in,respiration gets more shallow,
the nervous system becomes moresympathetic, right, so it gets
more fight or flight.
That's because that whole areaisn't getting the proper
stimulation.
You're getting improperrespiration exchange or the
exchange of carbon dioxide,oxygen, et cetera, and you start
(39:20):
having emotional symptoms,anxiety, right, stress issues,
stress response, sleeplessness.
Conversely, you can have aninjury that you start protecting
and rounding the shoulder andeventually you know you have
those things, or you're stucklike that from the emotions and
then you start having back pain,right.
(39:40):
So there's these, always thesereflections, and so when we're
looking at pain, you you mightcome to me for a simple back
pain, like your case I wassquatting and whatever and it
might literally just bestructural, but you've had it
for how long now?
Right, a while, and it keepscoming.
I you know, I don't think Icould speak for you, but I'm
sure there's definitely somefears and other things stuck
(40:01):
there.
At this point, you know, am Igoing to be like this?
What's it going to be like whenI'm 80?
you know all these things rightyeah so we have to address that
and it may just address on theirown, because if you suddenly
don't have that back pain, Iguarantee, guarantee they'll go
away.
Those fears and everything elsewill drift away with time,
right, but there's so much topain so much and I love that we
(40:28):
can actually talk about it onthis level as opposed to just
talking about structural.
You know this muscle, ohabsolutely yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
And I think that that's the layer of chronic pain
.
Is there's so much emotionallythat goes into that right, the
way that you address yourself,like, oh, I have a bad back,
what Like?
And I say this, I say it, youknow, like, well, I try to be
(40:57):
mindful of it, but of not saying, you know, not saying these
things, oh, I have a bad back.
Or we get stuck in thesestories of like, no, I can't
bend over to pick that up.
Will you go pick that up for me?
And there's so much fear there,there's so much fear for me I
will speak for myself there's alot of fear of re, re injuring
(41:21):
myself and, you know, notwanting to bend over and do the
thing and not causing like forme it's a lot of flexion.
So anything that you're, thatyou're bending or you know, and
then, and then there's all ofthe ways that we then, when
that's chronic, we then identifyas as the pain, so like, oh,
I'm just not flexible or I can't.
You know I can't do that andand I will speak from I'm, you
(41:44):
know, like, I know all of thisand I still am stuck in those
stories like nobody is perfect,and and there's so much work
that we can do, because I I knowthat I'm stuck in those stories
and I know that I'm stuck inthe fear and we're working on it
, you know.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
But that's the gift of being a healthcare
practitioner is you also learnby helping other people.
Those are the other reflectionsyou know.
So, like you say the same thingabout you know these stories
and narratives and they happento me still and I'm acutely
aware of them.
I have hearing.
I have hearing loss fromgrowing up in the music scene
and not protecting it.
You know, I mean I could hear,but my hearing is strange at
(42:25):
times and I become more used tobeing like, oh, I can't hear, oh
, I don't want to go to thatloud environment because it's
hard for me to hear.
You know differentiate voicesin a loud bar.
And I was like, well, there'sso many hacks that I have that I
can actually go out and hearand stuff.
But I got so used to saying Ican't hear.
And I can, I can hear.
I'm not, we're talking, I couldhear right now.
(42:45):
Right, you know, like there'sno problem.
But it becomes part of myidentity, like, oh, you know,
you become a curmudgeon about itor you start truncating your
life and you, you cut short yourhappiness.
I'm quite sure you can getsomething off the floor.
You might just have to do in adifferent direction, no problem,
you know.
Or if you know you got to liftsomething heavy, you get someone
else and you just time it likeI'm getting a heavy thing
(43:08):
dropped off, make sure someone'saround to help me pick it up.
Yeah, if I'm getting everythinga heavy, something dropped off
I'm making sure someone's aroundtoo, because I just don't want
to blow my back out at thispoint.
You know, like I've learned,I've seen.
I've seen enough people injuredthat I'm like you know I'm 45.
Now Let me be a little morewiser.
You know I'm done doing, youknow, prs on my deadlifts.
(43:32):
It's fun, I love it, but, likeI also know what my back feels
like after that you know I'mlike it's not not that important
to me
Speaker 1 (43:42):
yeah you know, being careful.
Being careful, I mean, isn't itfunny how, how, um, how our
mindset shifts as we get older?
But but being being mindful ofthe identities and the I.
I kind of started off thepodcast like what hats do you
want to show us today?
Like being careful of the hatsthat we fall under and maybe not
(44:06):
being careful but being mindfulreally being mindful of the
ways that we self-identify andthe ways that we show up, and
one of the things that you saidoh man, what was it?
It was before we hit record,but it was just something.
Oh no, maybe it was when werecorded.
You said my biggest pains werelike my biggest life lessons and
(44:27):
my biggest growth opportunities.
And really being mindful of theway that we identify, because
we can get very stuck right andlife is happening to me and I
have this back pain or I havethis hearing issue and right now
I can't go to the bar and Ijust might as well just stay
(44:49):
home, you know, for the rest ofmy life Like we can get very
stuck in the hats that we doallow ourselves to put on.
And being mindful of that.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
I speak of the gift of COVID, and at this point
we're about five, six years out,right?
I don't even know five years,something like that.
So, most listeners should beable to think about the gift of
COVID.
Right, it's definitely not agift.
People died.
It was a nightmare.
9-11 was not a gift.
The trauma and the PTSD that Ihad was not a gift 20 something,
(45:23):
25 years, 24 years.
Now I can say it's a giftbecause I see the changes it
forced in me and for many people, for COVID.
It allowed them to see theworld in a different way and
it's unique for everyone.
Or they realized how their lifemight have not been what they
wanted to be and they suddenlygot to sit on their couch.
They didn't want it, theydidn't like it.
(45:45):
But then they realized, whenthey start reintegrating the
world like how many people noware like, yeah, I work from home
at least one day a week now.
Yeah.
Is that not a gift?
To be able to be around yourkids or your dog or your loved
one you know, or any of thesethings?
Or they shifted their careers,or they started an at-home
business that started toflourish, or they just valued
their loved ones because theygot disconnected from them, you
(46:09):
know.
So, yeah, you know, I want tobe sure.
Covid was not a gift.
However, there's a gift.
However, there's a gift that wecould all find in it.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Yeah, I don't want to rely on you yeah, we, there's
always, there's always a silverlining in anything that happens
to us.
I, I might you know my quote, Ithink it's tony robbins, but
that's where I originally heardit but life is not happening to
you, it's happening for you.
And how is life happening foryou?
And really keeping that mindsetand that's, you know, that's
(46:41):
coming from a place where, likethis back thing, pain is a bitch
and it's very consuming, soit's not.
I think we can say that and belike, oh yeah, life's always
happening for me, and assumethat it's all roses and sunshine
and rainbows.
It's not and that's okay, andlife is still happening for you.
And how is this teaching youand growing you and expanding
(47:02):
you?
And you know, obviously in mybusiness it's.
It's a huge way that I can showup even greater because there's
that capacity that's expanded,but it's always happening.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Yeah, it makes you a better practitioner because you
understand suffering, maybe in adifferent way that your
patient's presenting, but youget it.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
When I was young and first started, I had no
suffering.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
I mean, sure, I had sinus issues, but was that
suffering?
I thought they were bad and,yeah, they can be debilitating,
but I got rid of them.
So is that really suffering?
No, no big deal.
You know, as I've gotten olderand have things that I'm like,
oh, this might stay, likehearing and other stuff that
might just be with me forever.
Oh, okay, that changes a lot ofthings, right, you know, having
(47:48):
you know other things that havehappened to me, where you know
I blog about when I lost mygallbladder and trying to keep
it there's a whole blog seriesover six months of me writing
and also gave me some newperspectives of the healthcare
system.
But you know, I thought I wasgoing to die because I was in
hospital, yellow, for three days, and you know I never thought
(48:09):
about death that close to me,right?
Sure, I wrote a will.
I don't know I'm supposed to dothat, right, you know.
But, like you know, I didn'tlike doing it and but then I was
like, oh, I might die, I don't,because I wasn't sure what was
happening and it happened to beJewish holidays, so there was
like no doctors in attendance,really, and I'm just sitting in
there and it was my birthday andI'm just like yellow, like a
(48:31):
highlighter, and I'm like Ithink I'm going to die, because
I didn't think it was mygallbladder, I had no pain and I
was like this is a liver tumor.
That's like I'm going througheverything in my head what it
could be, you know, and I had anultrasound and my gallbladder
was perfectly fine in theultrasound.
So I was like, oh, I'm going todie.
This is, this is death, that'sit.
You know, I'm shutting down awell, you know, after that I was
(48:52):
like I valued a lot of things.
So through our suffering welearn to, I think, value other
people's suffering as well, andthat helps us be more human.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Yeah, we get an invitation.
I always say here's a simplerexample.
I always say I will never notvalue a parking spot.
After living in the citybecause I had to pay like $150 a
month for a parking spot, noteven right in front of my house,
and after getting probably $500worth of parking tickets which
(49:30):
then made me pay for a parkingspot, I will never not value a
parking spot.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
And I don't steal in New York City, if you can get
that here.
I don't want to tell you what Iused to pay, but, yes, you
value these things suddenly when, like you know, if you're in
the suburbs, no problem findingparking, and it's really value
propositions and what we placeon things, and these are all
first world issues.
Yeah, but it's so funny howthey affect us, you know.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Yeah.
So tell me, tell me about yourbook.
I'm very curious knowing alittle bit about your story and
now hearing you, I would.
I'm just even more interestedin this realigning medicine.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Yeah, the book's called Realigning Medicine.
It came out February 25th, sonow it feels like a decade ago.
And you know the book came out.
I was teaching a practicemanagement class at a graduate
level and I got tired ofanswering the same questions and
you know they were the samequestions that I was also seeing
in people who are already inpractice.
So I was like I'm going towrite a book.
(50:33):
It was a very ADHD decision,you know.
Write a book.
It was a very ADHD decision,you know open head center.
Yeah, post post fact, I was likewe're never gonna get that
money back.
You know, you don't make moneywriting books unless you sell
gazillions of them.
And then and I didn't write itto make money, right, I needed
to get it off my chest.
But what I also realized is, asI was writing it, I realized a
(50:56):
lot of things that I was readyto move past as well.
You know like I'm like, oh, Iknow this lesson and now I'm
ready to do this again.
You know so I was, in a way itwas foreshadowing my boutique
practice.
It's kind of where the boutiquepractice came from, cause at
that time I was like, oh, I wasjust teaching and I was, you
know, running my practices.
And you know I realized somethings through writing down
(51:20):
everything I already knew andlearned from other people.
So the book, each chapter, isfocused on certain intents, like
the first one's a discoverychapter.
It's I have a vision exerciseand you know it's picturing
yourself in your ideal practice.
So you kind of startformulating a North Star what do
you really want?
And the analogy I use todescribe it is and I give this
(51:43):
to you know, my students is likewe do the vision exercise and
you know you might have thisvision of your ideal practice
and then you wind up working ina place where you have a lab
coat on, you're seeing like 60people a week, you're making
lots of money and you're runningaround and it's an awesome
practice and you're supersuccessful.
But your vision was seeing oneperson, one-on-one for 90
minutes.
(52:03):
You're wearing a robe and therewas a gong in the corner and
you were more like a shaman thanthe clinician and we're not
value like saying like one isbetter, no, that's what you
wanted.
So you're actually dissatisfiedin your practice.
No, that's what you wanted.
So you're actually dissatisfiedin your practice.
And then you're like well, howdo I get closer?
It doesn't mean, therefore, yougot to now destroy everything.
(52:25):
But we start saying what does itmean to want that?
What are those archetypes, whatare those emotions?
How do we start finding thosethings?
And then we start talking aboutthe patient journey.
We look at branding,communication, but not in the
marketing branding sense of likefonts and colors and all those
things.
Go get the marketers for that.
I say that in the book, youknow.
But you know, one of thelessons I learned is I didn't
(52:47):
know my practice early on, so Ihired a PR team to go do some
marketing.
You know, this was a long timeago and I was using my last
pennies.
I just knew I needed to get outthere and I didn't know how to
do it.
And they went and advertisedwhat they thought an
acupuncturist was.
And it was nothing like me and Iwas like, oh my God, and it was
(53:09):
the wrong patients and I feltembarrassed.
And then they had me go intoevents that I wanted nothing to
do with and like, and I didn'teven know why, because I didn't
know how to articulate what Iwas and make sure that
everything that people did forme or the stuff that I put on
social is close to how I wouldcommunicate and on brand Right
(53:31):
and on brands could be veryloose of who are you as a
practitioner, not.
What do you think people want tohear you say?
Right, and that's what a lot of.
What do you think people wantto hear you say, right, and
that's what a lot of people do?
Um, and so the whole book goesthrough there and it ends with
kind of like avoiding burnoutand kind of long term, like why
are you doing this long term?
But what?
What is your, your end goal?
(53:52):
Because there's not a 401k formost solo practitioners.
Eventually, hopefully, you say,oh, maybe I should get one of
those or whatever.
Right, there's no.
So what is the exit strategy?
What is that long-term goal?
Where are we going with it?
But it starts with that veryfirst vision exercise.
(54:13):
Right, because that long-termgoal is why are we doing this?
And then the goal is so the bookis kind of that and I actually
give zero answers.
They're literally stories ofthe craziness and me being a 5'1
and probably saying things thatpeople aren't excited about.
But this can apply to anon-clinician who's struggling
(54:35):
and not succeeding.
I remember when I first startedmaking more money than what I
was comfortable with, I startedthinking I was committing a
crime because I didn't come frommoney.
(54:58):
I never saw money and I waslike what do you do with this?
I also didn't know what to dowith it.
I was like the IRS is going tocome arrest me.
I don't know what I'm doing.
It's got to be something wrongand therefore I started kind of
self-sabotaging and we do thatin self-belief systems, limiting
belief systems.
I call them set points, butessentially they're limiting
belief systems.
They could come from trauma.
(55:18):
They can come from how we seeourselves.
Are you worthy of success?
Imposter syndrome, which ishuge in every healthcare
provider, but practically anyoneright.
When you put yourself out there, it's scary.
Yeah, very scary.
So I talk about these things sothat we can identify them,
because you know, if you can,what do they say?
(55:43):
Like when you're exercisingdemons, you have to know its
name first, right?
So if we know the problem now,we can pay attention to it.
Either we navigate around it orwe start dealing with it.
If we don't know it's there,well then we're possessed.
Yeah, yeah so that's the book ina nutshell, and I did hit
(56:05):
bestseller in small business.
So, as my marketing team said,update the link in for
best-selling author but you know, oh my gosh.
Yeah, in reality it was fun,though I was like, oh my god,
people bought my book yeah, ofcourse that feels good.
Speaker 1 (56:22):
I again, like you're saying, it's a very vulnerable
thing to be ourselves and youcan say that, as you know, a
social media presence, to showup authentically on social media
, to show up authentically inyour business, to show up
authentically in a relationship,on whatever level, it's a very
vulnerable thing to show up as100% ourselves and there's so
(56:45):
many layers to that.
Probably at some point when wewere younger, right, like
somebody told us we were tooloud, and now we're like, oh my
gosh, I'm too loud all the time.
That was me.
I have a very loud laugh, sonow I'm very self-conscious of
my laugh.
But there's these pieces, right, that we get.
It's very vulnerable to show upas ourselves and when we don't,
(57:07):
there's that disconnect.
That's what leads to burnout,because we're showing up as
someone else or the version ofourselves that we think other
people want from us and there'sthat lack of fulfillment and
connection and presence.
And so it is.
It is scary to be yourself andto write a book and and show up,
(57:29):
you know, as 100% like I'm notgoing to give you the answers
which is very different becauseactually, where we live in a
world where everyone is like letme tell you this is the right
answer and let me tell you why.
And I'm going to fix you.
And let me tell you why I rightanswer.
And let me tell you why.
And I'm going to fix you.
And let me tell you why.
Speaker 2 (57:44):
I don't know what's right for anyone.
Speaker 1 (57:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (57:47):
You know I can tell you what has worked for me and
people I've consulted for.
And good luck, that's it, right, yeah, but you know I believe
in it.
I know it works, Right, I'veseen it, But's not, you know.
But it was also very scary towrite because I put things in
there where I'm like, should Isay this, Like, is that okay?
You know, because I'm like Ihave to say certain things
(58:09):
because I need people tounderstand it.
I place no value judgment onanything, but I say some things
in there that I'm like oh, I'mgoing to get canceled, Right,
and they're not from a left orright position or from anything,
but people get upset when youpush buttons.
And you know, like I.
You know I talk about people'sInstagrams, right, you know.
Let's say, you have a thousandpeople on your Instagram and now
(58:31):
you decide to be a healthcarepractitioner.
That's a really great base ofpeople.
But you also have photos ofwhen you were 20 and you know,
and it might not be the mostappropriate photos, let's say,
and you know, now you're amassage therapist and you want
to know why you're gettingtouchy, feely guys, you know, or
girls, because you've a guyadvertising yourself with no
(58:53):
shirt on.
Yeah, and.
I talked about like how I hadselective Instagram feeds for my
practice management class and Ididn't screen them that well
and like the whole class beinglike, oh my God, and I'm like,
yeah, okay, well, here's whatyou don't do, you know, and I
was surprised and astonished andI'm like you know, people
sometimes just don't think thatpeople are going to scroll back,
(59:13):
or people scroll back and theysee who your cousins are and
they get a crush on you and theystalk your entire family.
What do you want to put outthere?
And that's up to you.
But I want to at least go andsay think about these things.
And it's very granular and it'svery small, but I've seen this
destroy people's practices orhave people shut down their
entire social presence becauseof very negative experiences
(59:37):
that had nothing to do with themother than they just didn't
think of.
You know, I wouldn't even seecensoring, just just, you know,
deciphering what they wantpublic versus not, because you
become more public, you know,and and if you're like I don't
care, then cool, now you know,and you'll get to go and have a
great time.
It's not a value judgment byany means yeah, yeah, that's all
(59:57):
in the book yeah love that andit's available anywhere.
Books are sold, including ebooks, so ebooks audible no, because
I didn't want to record, Ididn't want to read it.
Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
I you know you have a very soothing voice.
Actually, I feel like you woulddo a great job.
Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
Um, maybe I just didn't want to read my book, you
know.
And now I realize I can get aito read it for me and I'm like,
oh, maybe I should do theaudible book, but I'm, that
chapter is done, you know maybedo the Audible book, but that
chapter is done.
Maybe on the next book.
There's another book's 80% done.
It's a clinical book on fasciaand the treatment of it.
(01:00:35):
So with a co-author it's goingto be I'm very excited Hyper
niche.
So three people will buy thatbook.
It will not be a bestseller.
Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
It will still be great.
It will still be great Well,Jordan, thank you so much for
coming on the podcast.
Thank you for all of yourwisdom and connection for people
that want to follow up with you.
Speaking of social media, forthose of us not in New York or
Manhattan, Long Island, Brooklyn, how can we follow up?
Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
Yeah, well, if you're in any of the regions, reach
out.
You know we love meeting people.
We're talking, but J BarbaraLAC, licensed acupuncturist,
basically anywhere.
Any social platform.
I'm more active on some thanothers, but you could find me or
find my marketers and they'llfind me.
My main website isdrjordanbarbercom, so you can
(01:01:27):
always get my email, send me acontact form on there, and my
clinic is Dr Barber Clinic,which is now on the Upper West
Side.
It's relocated from Brooklynand I'm very excited to be
serving that community.
It's a very exciting area.
Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
Love that.
I love that I have someconnections there, because I'm
going to try to get them to comesee you, and I'm going to try
to come see you for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
I would love to at least give you a clinical
impression on that back, becauseI have ideas just based on what
you told me.
So if you are in the area,please, we'll do a follow-up
podcast on that yeah, actually Iwould love to.
Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
I, um, yeah, I would love to.
Anyway, um, we'll have to talk.
Last question you're standingon a stage, you have the
microphone for a minute and youhave the opportunity to share
any one message with the world.
What would that message be?
Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
Demand more, that's it.
Demand more for everything, foryourself.
Don't settle, right so, whetherit's healthcare from your
doctor, from your loved ones,stop settling.
Every time we settle, we make aconcession, and that doesn't
mean to be, like you know, amean person, right, like we're
(01:02:49):
talking about being reasonable.
But if we're all honest withourselves, we we we often avoid
conflict or we just accept that,especially with healthcare, you
know it's like oh well, youknow, that's what I'm going to
get.
I have crappy insurance.
No, just because you havecrappy insurance, you can still
demand more, right?
So be your own advocate anddemand more.
Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
Love that.
Thank you so much, Jordan.
This was such a funconversation it's been awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
I hope to talk to you soon.
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