May 18, 2025 • 57 mins
When was the last time you had an honest conversation about sex? Not just the logistics, but the deep stuff—pleasure, desire, and the myths we've all internalized? Dr. Emma Smith, certified sex and trauma therapist, joins us for a refreshingly candid discussion that might just transform how you think about physical intimacy.
The conversation begins with Dr. Smith's fascinating journey from trauma therapy to sex therapy. While helping sexual assault survivors reclaim their lives, she noticed something crucial was missing from their recovery: "They're showing up at work, in school, in friendships...but the bedroom is remaining elusive." This revelation led her to specialize in helping people reconnect with embodied pleasure after trauma.
We dive into pervasive sex myths that limit our experiences. Perhaps the most liberating insight? "Good sex is sex that you enjoy having. It is completely subjective." This simple truth challenges the performance-based metrics many of us unconsciously apply to intimacy. Dr. Smith debunks the myth that most women can achieve orgasm through penetration alone (80-85% cannot) and explores how responsive desire works—that slow-building arousal that takes an average of 20 minutes for women to develop fully.
Dr. Smith also addresses how religious upbringing and purity culture create lasting impacts on sexual experiences. Both of us share our Catholic backgrounds and the journey to unlearn limiting beliefs about pleasure. As she poignantly notes, many people don't even realize "sex was for my pleasure" until well into adulthood.
Whether you're struggling with performance anxiety, feeling disconnected from your desires, or simply curious about expanding your understanding of pleasure, this conversation offers compassionate insights and practical wisdom. Dr. Smith reminds us that true sexual fulfillment requires safety, trust, and the courage to explore what genuinely feels good—not what we think sex "should" look like.
Ready to rethink everything you thought you knew about good sex? Listen now, and discover how breaking free from sexual myths might just lead to the most authentic pleasure you've ever experienced.
Connect with Dr. Emma Smith on IG @ emmasmithphd or her website https://soliloquie.co/
Let's connect on social media! You can find me @ _journeytowell
Be sure to reach out and say hello 🤍
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be well, my friend
xx Hannah
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello, welcome back to the podcast Journey to Well.
So I was telling Emma we haveEmma Smith, a certified sex and
trauma therapist, on the podcasttoday.
She's also a 4-1 sacralgenerator, so we're going to
talk a little bit about humandesign in between this podcast.
But I was telling Emma Ioccasionally will ponder like
(00:27):
who have I not really talked to?
What experts have I not reallytalked to on my podcast yet that
I personally would love to talkabout and I think that we need
to talk more about, and a fewmaybe a month ago now, I was
like I really need to have a sextherapist on my podcast.
We don't talk about sex openlyever.
(00:49):
Well, I mean, within my friendgroup I definitely do, but I
don't even talk about sex openlyon my platforms typically
because it's not very related tomy immediate business.
But I was like I really want tohave a sex therapist on my
podcast.
And then Emma reaches out andI'm like, yes, please, let's
have a conversation.
So I love your platform, I loveall of the open conversations
(01:13):
you have and I'm very excited tohave this conversation with you
.
But let's first let youintroduce yourself.
Who is Emma?
What brought you into sextherapy?
That's very interesting to me,and anything else that you want
to share.
Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Sure, absolutely.
Thank you for having me.
So yes, my name is Dr EmmaSmith and I'm a licensed
professional counselor and anASEC certified sex therapist and
trauma therapist.
And the way that I got into sextherapy was actually through
the trauma work.
And so when I was a babyhatchling counselor, like 12
(01:53):
years ago, and doing mypracticum and internship, you
know, fresh out of graduateschool, I I had been married to
Marine and so I thought that Iwas going to work with the
military, but then I ended up inthe middle of nowhere, texas,
with no military bases, and so,thank goodness, I had a
(02:19):
supervisor who was like actually, you know, trauma isn't all
that different and we can useyour interests and your skills
in this way with this differentpopulation that was sexual
assault survivors.
And so I started working withthem and I just found them to be
the most resilient, inspiring,badass women and it was all
women at that time that I hadever run across and everybody
(02:45):
was like, oh my gosh, that workmust be really heavy, and there
were parts of it that were heavy, but that's not.
When I look back on that time.
That is not what I recall fromthat time.
What I recall are people comingin and, you know, just being so
aware that these people hadsurvived the thing that had
(03:07):
happened to them, right and so,and watching them reclaim all of
these different aspects ofthemselves and be able to go
back to work and go back toschool and show up in their
friendships, and all of thatkind of good stuff.
Well, fast forward several yearslater and I'm realizing that,
(03:29):
yeah, they're showing up at workand they're showing up at
school, and they're showing upin their friendship circles and
maybe in their families andtheir communities, but the
bedroom is remaining elusive.
And it's because we don'treally talk about sex in trauma
therapy, right, we're usuallytalking about the restoration of
(03:50):
normalcy.
We're not necessarily keepingpeople all the way to where they
can experience embodiedpleasure again.
Wow, right.
And so, you know, the pandemichits and I, you know, I grew
mold on two sourdough startersand I was like, well, that's not
for me, so I'm going to have togo back to graduate school,
(04:11):
because this is what I'm good atand sourdough is not going to
be it.
So I went back and I got my PhDand I got certified in sex
therapy along the way.
So here I am and I grew old.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Oh my God, you're hilarious, I love that and
that's actually oh man.
I am so grateful that sexualtrauma, like big T trauma, is
not a part of my story, sothat's never actually something
that I considered that we don'ttalk about.
The actual like getting backinto the bedroom in trauma
therapy, which is wild, justlike you were thinking that it's
(04:50):
wild.
That's wild to me because, ofcourse, that seems like
something that would besomething that needs to be
talked about.
Which trauma therapy is wild tome in general?
I've also never I don't thinkI've ever had a trauma therapist
on my podcast and just kind oftalking about that aspect of
(05:13):
therapy and how it's very, Iwould assume, vastly different
than maybe what we think oftraditional therapy as being
Maybe different.
I would say heaviness.
I mean you're like, yeah, thatwasn't that heavy, but I would
think that it's much heavier itis, but there's also a baseline
(05:36):
to return to.
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
And so that's really lovely, in fact.
In fact, when I think about you, know, I think not every
therapist is the right fit forevery person or the right fit
for every concern Right, and soI love working with trauma.
I know that sounds like a weirdthing to say.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I do too in a different way, in a
non-therapeutic like non-therapyway.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
I do but like, but there's other issues that I'm
not particularly good attreating and one of them is like
chronic depression, because alot of the time it's it is a, a
baseline that the person is atand like.
That actually is the problem,and there's a whole different
(06:26):
set of skills and tools andstrengths that I have some
incredible colleagues who aretruly brilliant, and the way
that they approach their work isvastly different, right, so
yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
So this is just my cup of tea and educated in what
you are dealing with.
So not maybe going to a traumatherapist if it's trauma, or
going to someone that reallyreally deals with and enjoys
dealing with and has theexperience in dealing with
depression or anxiety orwhatever it is?
So sex, let's talk about it.
(07:22):
So I really want to.
One of the things that wetalked about is kind of
debunking some myths, and Iwould love to actually start
there Because, like we'vealready mentioned, we don't
really talk about sex.
And I will add, on top of that,we have a lot of preconceived
notions and a lot of ideas ofwhat good sex looks like, or
(07:48):
what the right or quote rightsex is, and if we don't, if we
don't fit in whatever mold thatwe have created that sex should
be, then we think thatsomething's wrong with us, or we
think something's wrong withour partner, or our partner
thinks something's wrong with us.
That's something that we shouldtalk about, because that's
(08:10):
happened to me a lot.
Like, oh, blah, blah, blah,like that's never happened to me
before.
And then I'm like, oh, issomething wrong with me?
Like because every other quote,every other quote you've been
with is one way and I'm theother way.
Is something wrong with me?
Like there's all of thesenotions that we have in our mind
, so I would love for you toshare maybe the most fun ones to
(08:33):
you, maybe the ones that youenjoy talking about the most, or
the ones that maybe come acrossyour therapy desk often.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yeah, okay, how much time do we have?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
ask often yeah, okay, how much time?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
do we have?
I know, I know I'm like wecould talk for three hours, but
you really really could.
Just on myths, it is so okay.
So the number one myth thatmaybe people don't necessarily
say, but I think is implied inso much of the conversations
that we have about sex, is whatcounts as sex.
(09:09):
What counts as sex, so mostpeople will.
When I say you know sex, mostpeople are thinking of
intercourse, and most people arethinking of what we call PIV,
or penis and vagina intercourse,right?
However, that is one version,right.
(09:34):
There are many versions.
Some involve penetration, somedo not, some involve very
specific body parts, some do not, yeah, right.
But if you ask different peopleabout what they think about sex
, you will get wildly differentanswers, right, and so I think
(09:56):
that's one of the things.
Then it's well, what counts asgood sex, right, and so here's
what I'm going to.
Here's what I'm going to.
I'm going to debunk this mythfor you.
Good sex is sex that you enjoyhaving.
That is good sex.
It is completely subjective.
(10:16):
If you enjoy it and you're like, oh, that was good, I would do
that again.
Great, you just had good sex,right.
If you're like I would like todo that more frequently.
Okay, maybe you're not havingenough sex.
If you're like I, would like todo that less frequently, maybe
you're having too much, oryou're having too much of the
(10:38):
wrong kind for you.
So I think that sometimes weput on, we put a lot of rules in
play and I get questions fromjournalists and different folks
in you know in the world who arelike how much sex do people
need to be?
Having as much as they want,right, as much as they want, up
(10:58):
until there is, of course, thattipping point where we talk
about out of control sexualbehavior, which is when it's
like really impeding on.
You know your life, right?
If you are missing work, right.
If you're no longer in thedriver's seat.
Well then, we're going to havea different conversation, but
for most of us out there, it'sgoing to be.
I don't know, are you happywith the amount of sex that
(11:20):
you're having and the way thatyou're having it?
And if so, great, you're havinggood sex.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Can you have too little sex?
Speaker 2 (11:29):
You can, but again, it's still on that subjective
piece, right?
So there are people and I haveworked with clients who are
truly ace and that means thatthey're asexual.
They do not experience desirefor sex in the same way that
many of us do, and if it doesn'tbother them, okay, yeah, it's
(11:55):
just you.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah.
So what happens when we arewith our partner and we have
different?
Uh, we have different.
You know like it's like.
My thought is oh, you have waytoo much sex or you have way too
little sex, and and the personyou know, the opposite person
(12:16):
feels the same, that it's eithertoo much or too little.
Or you, we have differentdefinitions of what good sex is
like.
Oh, I just felt that that wasgreat, and then he's like or
she's like, that was terrible.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, yeah.
So this is another great mythto kind of talk about.
So desire discrepancy is whatyou just described right, and it
is one of the most commonthings that couples navigate.
So if you are navigating thisin your relationship, it does
not mean that you're with thewrong person.
In fact, in some ways, I thinkthat desire discrepancy speaks
(12:55):
to actually a strength in therelationship, which is that
you're actually communicatingright.
If you're having a conversation, if you're able to look at your
partner and be like, hey, Ithink I would like to change
some things about our sex life,and they're also in that
conversation with you, that isfantastic, because that means
that you're actually able totalk about that right and
(13:17):
everybody's afraid that they'remessed up, I think, um, and so I
just want to debunk that.
So if you're having thisconversation, uh, doesn't mean
that there's anything wrong.
It actually means that there'ssomething right that you're able
.
This conversation doesn't meanthat there's anything wrong.
It actually means that there'ssomething right that you're able
to have that conversation.
So, with desire discrepancy,it's about, you know, really
(13:40):
kind of exploring, hey, likewell, what would good sex be
like for you and what would goodsex be like for you?
And how do we, you know, how dowe do this dance?
And, yes, some people would usethe word compromise.
I like the idea of a dancebecause it has fluidity to it,
has flow to it.
Sometimes people think that sexfor both partners, or really
(14:05):
good sex for both partners, hasto happen at the same time.
That's not necessarily true,right.
Sometimes, depending on thecouple, that could be completely
impossible, depending on whatpeople want, and guess what,
that's okay too.
You can have really good sexthat's focused on one partner's
(14:26):
pleasure, and then you can havea really good sex that's focused
on the other partner's pleasure.
So it's just about figuring outwhat works for the two of you
and throwing out any of thescripting that you're bringing
(14:51):
or any you know, your bestfriend or whoever.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
So, yeah, it's so hard to separate that I think
because we do have all of thesethese, yeah, preconceived
notions of, of of what it shouldbe like, or even realizing that
, oh, what I like maybe mypartner is not, that's not my
(15:17):
first, my partner's first choice, and then recognizing that's
okay, that there's nothing wrong.
Again, there's nothing wrongwith him or there's nothing
wrong with her, it's justrecognizing that we might have
different, different desires.
I like that you also brought uplike maybe we're not both
experiencing our like highestpleasure at the same time and
(15:40):
that's OK.
I also I mean all I can do.
Really I'm not well educated inthis, besides well educated in
my own experience.
So I'm like how much should Italk about my own experience?
But I will say in my experienceI have not come across many
(16:00):
partners that have thatperspective and even have the
perspective of like time.
I think every everyone that Ihave been with it's always like
fast, you know, and if it's, ifit's too long, then again
something's wrong or, you know,we lose interest.
I don't know what happens, butdo you know what I mean Like and
(16:22):
time I feel like is.
Is that a myth too?
Is there some myth around timethat we can talk about myth too.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Is there some myth around time that we can talk
about?
Yeah, absolutely so.
And again I'm going to use,like, what is generally true.
So I'm going to caveat this bysaying if this is not true for
you, that's okay.
You're probably normal for you,right?
So you know, for most peoplethere's two types of desire, and
one is spontaneous desire, andthat's where I don't know the
wind blows the right way, or thesunlight the clouds part and
the sunlight hits you.
And one is spontaneous desire,and that's where I don't know
the wind blows the right way, orthe sunlight the clouds part
(16:53):
and the sunlight hits you andyou're like, oh, okay, I'm ready
to go, right, that'sspontaneous.
And then there's this other one, that's responsive desire, and
that is where you know you'rejust kind of going along having
your day, and then your partneris like, hey, would you like to,
(17:14):
would you like to do someactivities, right?
And you kind of go like, oh, Iwasn't thinking about that
before, I was actually justloading the dishwasher, but yeah
, I think I could be open tothat, you know.
And then you go and you are opento it at the beginning, but you
might not actively be turned on, so to speak.
But as the encounter unfoldsthen you get into it Right, and
(17:40):
so that is obviously slowerbecause you were just doing
whatever it was that you weredoing.
Sex was not on the brain andyou kind of have to catch up.
Well, from the average woman, Ithink it's about 20 minutes
actually.
It takes from when desiresparks to when you are fully
aroused and able to be presentand and feel that and like again
(18:05):
, experience with may vary rightyeah, um, and that is more true
for women, but it's not onlytrue for women.
There are plenty of men outthere that experience responsive
desire, and sometimes we youknow, I think as a culture we
just expect that men are readyto have sex whenever, wherever
(18:27):
and however, and if they are notimmediately aroused, um,
sometimes their female partnersthink that something is wrong
with them.
Sometimes they think there'ssomething wrong with them
because nobody's ever said ohhey, foreplay might be for you
too.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
yeah, so that's a good point.
Actually, you know, like Foryeah, that can't.
Can it be enjoyable for themale to like?
We always talk about it for thefemale and you got to warm her
up as, as we say, but could befor the male to, is what you're
(19:05):
saying is what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, yeah, and so sometimes with my couples, you
know, I have something called asexual tasting menu and we go
through and like, you know whatare you setting your table with,
what is your appetizer course?
And a lot of that is foreplaybecause, guess what, what might
be a turn on for me may not workfor my partner, and vice versa.
So we want to know, like versa.
So we want to know like, hey,what, what does start to kind of
(19:31):
perk you up?
Yeah, Um and maybe it's, youknow.
Is it taking a shower?
Is it a massage?
Is it asking me about my dayand being interested in my
answer?
What you know, um, is it saying?
Is it telling a story?
(19:52):
Like hearing your partner tella story where they are talking
about you know something they'rereally excited or passionate
about, right, that can bearousing to somebody and you
just kind of have to.
You just kind of have to askand be interested in what they
actually say.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Yeah, yeah, right.
What if they don't know?
What if?
What if you're asking thesequestions Like what if, yeah,
what?
What if they're like I don'tknow what turns me on, or
whatever turns you on, turns meon.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, that's really hard, I know, and so and so
sometimes, you know, in aneffort to be a a good partner
quote, unquote, right whereyou're just like, oh, I'm, I'm
just whatever you want me to be,yes, yeah, and that's hard,
because I think that that issome cultural scripting and I
(20:50):
think that that is one whereit's like, oh well, maybe you
know, I think at this point Iwould probably say part of me
wants to be like, hey, thenmaybe this is a really good time
to go, maybe seek out a sextherapist and say, hey, like I
think I have some a block aroundthis, you know, and and like,
(21:13):
let's talk about that and thatperson you know, one of the
things that happened when Imoved to Tennessee is that I had
to distinguish between what asex therapist is and, like the
fact that I am not touch people.
Yeah, in my sessions we justtalk about it and I give people
(21:35):
resources, and then they havethe best homework that they've
ever gotten in their entire lifeto go home and like explore,
right, but you're not doing thatin my office oh my gosh.
I love that so, and nothingagainst people who do that work.
I'm just not even that much ofa hugger, so like that would not
be my area.
(21:55):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, I have great, yeah, Ihave like wonderful people in my
life who are way more embodiedin that way than I could ever
imagine to be, and I will letthem handle all of that Like
that is not my jam.
Right, but I will talk about itwith folks and and get them to
explore and maybe look at someof the underlying messages that
(22:18):
people gave them, maybe inchildhood, where they were
ashamed of their bodies or theway that their body functioned
or about some of the things thatthey desired, and a lot of
times when we start to untangleand explore that then all of a
sudden people have more capacityto open up and be more
explorative.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Right, yeah, you and I talked about when, when we
first connected.
Uh, you were also raisedCatholic and I I was baptized
Catholic.
I went to a Catholic highschool, catholic and I was
baptized Catholic.
I went to a Catholic highschool.
So I know a lot aboutCatholicism.
I didn't grow up going toCatholic church every day.
My parents were Catholic andthen when they got divorced they
(23:05):
both kind of got away from theCatholic church because there's
so much shame and shunning whenyou get divorced and you're
Catholic.
So I know a lot aboutCatholicism and I think that's
our story and I think a lot ofpeople also have a lot of shame
around desires and what theywant and just sexual drives.
(23:29):
Whether you were raisedCatholic or not, is what I'm
really trying to get to.
But you and I just kind of havethat connection.
But that was one of the thingsthat I realized that I really
had to work through with in myadult years was really beginning
(23:49):
to play around with.
This is what I like and there'snothing wrong with that, and
like this is how I am and thisis what turns me on and and
really exploring that, because Idon't know that when we haven't
moved through that shame,pressure, guilt, whatever you
(24:14):
want to call it, whatever wefelt in our childhood.
I don't know that we canpossibly then begin to explore
what you like, like if youhaven't even walked through the
shame and what had closed youoff.
I don't know that we couldreally explore like, oh,
actually this feels good to me.
(24:34):
It's just I don't know.
That's my story.
My sex was very robotic, what Ithought was supposed to be good
sex, and it wasn't terrible sex.
I mean it.
It it was very average sex, butit wasn't terrible.
But until I really dove intoeverything underneath the
surface, there wasn't anycapacity that I had to explore.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah, no, I understand that so much.
And you know, I did grow upCatholic and I went, I was
practicing for a long time, infact.
I went through, you know,catholic elementary school and
then I went to a Jesuit college,wow so, and you know, the first
time, the first time I had sexoutside of marriage, right, I
(25:23):
was in college and I went toconfession the next day, right,
and I had to tell this like 85year old priest and I'm thinking
, oh my gosh, how am I supposedto do this?
Uh, and you know they I don'tknow why, but they didn't have
it set up with the screen.
It was like face to face.
(25:44):
So I'm like face to face withlike, for all intents and
purposes, grandpa, right, oh myGod.
And I'm like, okay, wow, how doI say this?
You know, I think I ended upsaying like father, I
compromised my chastity Like theonly way that I could come up
(26:05):
with to say it, and I'm like ohGod, I can't believe.
I said that, and then the nextweek I had to go back and say it
again.
Right, oh man, I know, I knowit was.
It was actually kind of funnybecause I think after the second
time he was like you know,maybe, maybe you need to like
work through this and then youcan come back.
(26:27):
Yeah, you don't have to comeback every week.
Oh, my goodness, like okay,thank you um and so, yeah, I
remember that right.
But like it was also for me itwas very, it was very vanilla,
because, like, where am Igetting, where am I getting my
education from?
And then also, I, I didn't evennecessarily understand that sex
(26:51):
was for my pleasure, I justunderstood that it was something
that somebody wanted from meand so my ability to meet that
expectation or exceed it waslike how I rated it.
Yeah, but it was really weirdbecause I I joke around that, um
, I was like, oh my gosh, like Ithink I kind of acted sounds so
(27:14):
gendered, but like I think Ikind of acted like a dude during
sex, even though I was havingsex with men, because we would
get done and I would like pop upand leave, bye, bye, bye, bye.
Like I know you're done with me, I'm done with you, goodbye.
Yeah, because I didn't want tostick around for, like the
debriefing that I had made up inmy head that they were going to
(27:37):
be like well, you didn't know,interesting, apparently it was
like a major power move.
Yeah, I didn't feel that wayabout it at the time.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Ah, interesting.
Yeah, I mean, we don't, wedon't really, we don't really
want to have the conversation,whether it's like the first time
we have it or afterwards, Idon't think we, we really, even
with our partner, it's always.
It's always this uncomfortable,this uncomfortable, this
uncomfortable thing, and I don't, I don't really know why it's
(28:12):
so uncomfortable.
Besides, just societally, it'slike oh, we don't talk about sex
, we don't talk about that yeah,I mean, I think purity culture
is everywhere and even if itwasn't part of your family, you
know, in that like, hey, don'tdo this.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Um, it's in the soup, right, like it's just it's in
the water.
And so really, even people who,I think, grow up even, you know
, in very non-religious, verysecular households can often get
the purity culture backlash.
And so, yeah, I think it wasn't.
Even I was in my 30s, probablybefore I was like, oh, I think
(28:50):
it wasn't.
Even I was in my thirties,probably before I was like, oh,
I think this gets to be about me.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Well, that's really toughbecause I think I had that
transition too and I'm like no,I don't want to just be having
sex if I'm not feeling immensepleasure or pleasure at all.
And then you kind of have thatpushback, you know, from your
(29:16):
partner or different partners,but from different people, that
you it's like no, this is alsoI'm half of this puzzle piece.
It's not just for you, but Ialso think that that's a lot of
like stereotyp.
Years ago, maybe three years agoI don't even know what it was
(29:48):
called it was something aboutlike design your sex room or
like something about that.
And there was one couple andshe was like, yeah, I've never
had an orgasm and they had likethree kids and they'd been
married for like 20 years.
I was like what, you've neverhad an orgasm.
And not even judging her, herlike I was just like that's
(30:09):
ridiculous.
I can't even imagine neverfeeling that.
Um, but it was almost just kindof like, at least from what I
recall, and this was years ago,but from what I recall her, her
saying was like I didn't reallyknow that I was supposed to.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Yeah, like I didn't know that that was an option.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
No, that's real, that's real.
Well, and if we can jump backto myth busting for a second,
you know there's, it's upwardsof, I think it's 85 or 80% of
women cannot achieve orgasmthrough penetration alone.
Right and like.
That's just.
Most of us need clitoralstimulation as well, and so if
(30:57):
you don't know that, you mightthink that there's something
wrong with you and if yourpartner doesn't know that they
might think there's somethingwrong with them right when
really, it's like actuallyyou're in the majority, yeah,
right, and there's even some newstudies that are have come out
recently that we're looking at.
You know, even women, uh, whocan have orgasms through
(31:22):
penetrative sex.
Quote, unquote alone.
Um, they have started lookingat, seeing, like actually, is it
like the angles of the way thatpeople's pelvises are tilted,
or the way that their bodies areshaped or whatever that
something is actuallystimulating the clitoris, even
if you don't think that'shappening.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
I've always thought that too.
I've had a few conversationsand I'm like, okay, so you had
an orgasm while there ispenetration, but like you were
still externally stimulated.
So that's still not yet,because I've always, I've always
been like I don't even thinkthat that's like remotely
possible for me and I've neverreally even tried because I'm
(32:04):
just like I don't, I don't, Idon't have any like badge of
honor that I'm trying to wearand be like oh yeah, I can do it
just from penetration.
But even the people that I'vetalked to, I'm like, yeah, no,
it's still, and I'm sure thatthere's people that can, and
good for you.
But I was listening to apodcast the other week and and
(32:28):
it was with a sex coach and shesaid there's something like 20
different orgasms that femalescan have.
Have you heard this?
Speaker 2 (32:33):
I have heard it.
I have heard it.
I can't run them off and namethem but, there are lots of
different ways that people canexperience a release of of
pleasure and you know, there'seven I have seen some studies
where people experienced traumaand they lose the ability to
function in certain parts oftheir body.
(32:54):
But the brain remaps and theycan experience erotic pleasure
in different parts of their body.
So, I mean the possibilities.
You know we are.
We are just scratching thesurface.
Now I think of what's possible,yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Yeah, I really do think that it's.
It's very interesting to me andso cool to kind of talk about,
I mean, just the human body ingeneral, like the way that we're
able to hear heal ourselves,the wisdom of our body, and then
, if you just put that in aconversation about sex, like
there's so many ways that welimit ourselves, I believe, and
(33:33):
we have again these ideas in ourhead of this is what sex should
look like, or this is how sexshould be, or, you know, this is
even what an orgasm should looklike and sound like and feel
like, and what if it didn't haveto be just that?
There was something that yousaid when we were talking and
(33:54):
you said something about likebeing able to reframe what's
possible and then explore, likeexplore what you want.
Can you dive into that, becauseI feel like it's very aligned
with this?
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
So when sometimes people say, kind of going back
to what you had said about like,if somebody's like, well, I
don't, I don't know what I want,well, sometimes it can be
difficult to know what's whatyou want if you don't know
what's possible, if peoplehaven't laid out a framework for
you, right, so you shouldn'tquote, unquote need a framework.
(34:29):
I know that people will saythat, but just do you.
Well, that's lovely If you aresomebody who is completely
comfortable.
You know coloring outside thelines or writing in a completely
blank notebook, but some of uslike lines.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Some of us like lines , and so that's why you know you
need a starting point.
And then I think, and then youcan have creativity flow.
But I don't want anybody tofeel like, oh well, I'm not
creative, so I'm not going to beable to do this.
No, you can.
You can start out with someguidelines and then feel free to
modify.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I always said that about myselfI'm not creative, but then
that's what I really liked.
You said with your couples youhave some cookbook, what did you
call it?
Speaker 2 (35:15):
The sexual tasting menu.
Tasting menu.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
So is that kind of?
What you're getting at is, isthose are some guidelines and I
would assume?
Well, explain it.
I don't want to assume.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
So the sexual tasting menu I have two versions right,
and one of them is completelyblank and that's for my couples
that maybe are a little bit.
They either have moreexperience or they've just been
more sexually open over theyears, okay, and they do have an
idea of what they like.
And then I have one that kindof has some yes, no, maybe
(35:47):
checklist style things in it andthat is just to kind of say,
hey, here's some common onesthat people like, maybe, or are
curious about or might want totry, and so that can give you a
starting point.
Yeah, but sometimes like, andthen you know there, but please
feel free to like, cross out theones you don't like and write
(36:10):
in something if you think of itbetter.
Like, don't feel like I am notthe chef, right?
Yeah, you, you two, arecreating this for yourselves.
But here's, here's some promptsto get you started, kind of
like journaling prompts, right?
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
I um.
So we're gonna do a littlehuman design, which I've never
talked in terms of sex and humandesign.
But I want to say something.
And then I have another,another question.
But so in human design we haveand I talk about this often on
my podcast and on my channel wehave what's called energy
centers.
When you say that you had yourchart pulled, so, like when you
(36:47):
saw that picture, it's called abody graph chart.
You have all these shapes.
So you have a triangle pointingup on, like where your forehead
would be.
You have a triangle pointingdown where, like your chin would
be, you have a square whereyour heart would be.
So we call those energy centersand they're either going to be
colored in or not colored in,depending on or there'll be a
(37:10):
specific color, or like white,depending on what chart you,
where you pull your chart from,and you have I'm talking about
the two top ones you have a notcolored in, so a white upper
triangle which is called yourcrown energy center, and then
you have a colored in which wewould call defined energy center
(37:33):
, when the triangle is pointingdown, which is called your Ajna.
I have the same thing.
I have an undefined crown,defined Ajna and you're really
reminding me of this when you'retalking, because that specific
combination, when we have anundefined crown and a defined
Ajna, we do really well when wehave a little bit of inspiration
(37:56):
.
So like we need just like alittle spark of inspiration.
So how I use that in mybusiness is sometimes I will
follow other human designexperts or cycle alignment
coaches and see how they'reposting reels, not what they're
posting, but like the design oftheir reel or their hook and
(38:17):
then explanation and like howthey're kind of doing that.
Because with the undefinedcrown is what this like kind of
behind the human design behindit is the undefined crown, is
what the kind of behind thehuman design behind it is the
undefined crown.
It's like we're really open toideas and we need those ideas to
flow in and we need to see them, just like we need the journal
prompts or like the ideas, thechecklist, and then you're
(38:39):
defined Ajna is your third eye.
So it's like you're processing,how you process information.
So you could be like I reallylike what Emma said here, like
her invitation here, except Idon't know, except, instead of
using chocolate sauce, use likemaple syrup, right, or something
like that, right, like if we'rekind of having, like sexy play
(39:02):
and that would be like a waylike cause you are going to be
able to process that and be like, but this is really what I want
.
So it'd be really interestingactually to work with clients in
this in this way, like sex,therapy, human design, and to
say, ok, maybe, maybe, andreally just to see, I really
like to research and kind oflike find information.
(39:26):
So it'd be interesting to seethe ones that do really well
with the open checklist.
Do they have more defined, likea more defined crown and more
defined Ajna, or the ones thatreally need that like
inspiration.
Do they have the more undefinedcenters?
Just to put it in human designterms, and it's really helpful.
(39:48):
You don't even have to knowyour human design.
Like these are little piecesthat I like to bring in.
You don't have to know yourhuman design, but knowing how
you like to generate ideas, likehow your creativity is sparked.
Do you just really like beingcreative in the bedroom?
(40:08):
Do you like having all of thesecreative ideas?
And can you talk to yourpartner about like hey, I really
like coming up with these ideas.
Are you down to try them withme?
Like it might flop, it mightnot work at all, but let's try
it.
Or do you really like gaininginspiration, whether that's
talking to a sex coach or a sextherapist, or talking to other
(40:33):
friends or listening to podcasts, like there's so many ways now,
I mean I'm here saying likenobody talks about sex anymore.
We actually are talking aboutsex a lot, a lot more.
So there's a lot, a lot ofgreat ways outside of like porn,
which is not representative notrepresentative, I think, of sex
(40:55):
.
But there's so many ways thatwe can gain inspiration and
creativity that there doesn'tneed to be, we don't need to be
in this box.
But knowing I guess that's whatI'm getting at Knowing your
thought, processing how you gain, how you gain your insight and
then how you process yourinsight could, could be very
(41:18):
exciting.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Yeah, no, I agree, I agree, yeah for sure.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Lot more males come in your office, which is very
exciting.
Are you finding that there'ssome sort of particular pattern
or underlying pattern of whythese males now are coming in
and wanting to talk about it?
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Yeah, so it's.
It's actually been veryinteresting because this is you
know, I moved from Washington DCto Tennessee, to Nashville
about just over a year ago now,primarily with women and the
(42:25):
LGBT community for most of mycareer and I've been open to
working with men.
But when you look at like mymarketing and like who I'm
talking to and stuff like that,I am not marketing towards men
and so it was very interestingwhen they start coming in and
part of it, and especially likesome more conservative men
(42:46):
coming in and I'm like, oh, thisis okay, Well, come on in.
But like also really.
you know, yeah, and sometimesI'm really curious and they're
like oh well, I'm not going torun into you anywhere outside of
here.
And so I think that I love that.
I'm like, yeah, I wouldn't wantto run into my therapist either
, right.
No way Come on in Um, but one ofthe things that there, a lot of
(43:10):
them come in because, um,either, you know, they're
referred by another therapistwho's like I am not equipped to
talk about sex, right, becausewe don't necessarily teach
therapists how to talk about sex.
Sure, we don't necessarilyteach therapists how to talk
about sex.
Actually, maybe you get onecourse, one if that, but it's
not required for most states, soyou could not, you know, ever
(43:36):
have any education in that, andthen you're just open to all of
the myths that the rest of uswere.
So either they're gettingreferred that way or they're
(44:07):
coming in because they haveanxiety related to performance
and a lot of times it's erectiledysfunction.
And you know, I most had yourlabs run.
You know, have you been to youractual doctor?
Because there are somephysiological things that can
manifest and then we want to getthat checked out and so and I'm
not qualified to diagnose that,so I will refer you, happily,
to people who can, but a lot oftimes they'll be like yep, you
know, believe me, you were thelast person I was going to come
(44:28):
see.
Like I've already exhausted allof these other ones Okay.
Got it Noted and they, uh, theyget really spun up about not
being able to perform, and partof it is because of what we were
talking about earlier, wherethey don't know that responsive
desire is a thing, or if they doknow it's a thing, they don't
(44:52):
know it's a thing for them.
Yeah, right, yeah.
And so so I talk and I getreally nerdy and I talk about
the brain and I talk aboutwhat's going on and that you
have, you know, you have yourwanting system, which is your
desire.
You have your wanting system,which is your desire, and you
have your liking system, whichis pleasure, and a lot of times
(45:12):
we overemphasize the desiresystem without talking about
what feels pleasurable.
And a lot of men are actuallyreally disembodied, and so I
call it brain in a jar syndrome,like you're just you're a brain
in a jar and you're a brain ina jar, and then sometimes you
have a penis right, like nothingin between.
(45:35):
Um, and so we really talk abouthey, what temperature do you
like?
Your shower, you know?
Or what types of cloths feelsgood on your skin and they're
like wrong, you know what.
(45:55):
What smells do you like?
Do you like, you know, thedaylight bulbs, or do you like
warm lighting, like all of thosetypes of things?
How loud do you like warmlighting, like all of those
types of things?
How loud do you like your music?
Why Like all of that?
And they're like, why do youhave me talking about?
Yeah right, because it's aboutbeing embodied friend you know,
yeah, and so we talk about that.
(46:17):
And sometimes it can be, youknow, their partners may have
myths that they're holding on toabout you know.
Well, if you're not arousedimmediately, there must be
something wrong with me.
And then these guys don't feelthat way.
I actually haven't run acrossanybody who's like, yeah, I'm
just not attracted to my partner, wow.
A lot of times they're like, no, I am, but like, ah, it's not
(46:42):
working, yeah, and so, and I'mlike, well, anxiety is also not
going to help, so kind of relaxinto that.
But yeah, they've been comingin and it's, it's very rewarding
work to do, actually, becausewe really get.
In order to do that work, youreally have to get up under
(47:03):
somebody's armor yeah, right,and and make it safe to say, hey
, you are human.
Yeah, just like everybody else.
And you know, bodies are weird,right, bodies are weird,
especially in sex.
Bodies make weird sounds,bodies look weird at different
angles, like it.
(47:23):
It just happens, you know, andit's okay.
And sex doesn't have to beserious.
You know, sex is an adultversion of play and we can only
play when we feel safe, right,and so sometimes it's about that
If you are hypercritical aboutyour performance, guess what
You're not going to enjoy.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Yeah.
Right, so yeah guess whatyou're not going to enjoy?
Yeah, right, so yeah, that wasreally cool.
Thank you for sharing that andand it is we don't.
I can't think of many thingsthat are more vulnerable than
sex, and we think of it and wehave so many layers to it and so
(48:06):
many ideas about it and and alot, oftentimes a lot, of shame
around it or a lot of guilt orlack of confidence.
I mean even the people that comeacross very confident.
We all have moments of feelinginadequate or feeling, um, like
some, you know, maybe somethingis wrong with us.
(48:28):
Or yeah, feeling in your headand you're like I want to feel
pleasure right now.
I just I feel so stressed or Idon't feel safe.
I mean, that's a whole notherhour conversation is talking
about safety.
Do you actually?
And?
And what does feeling safe looklike for you?
(48:49):
Because I think a lot of peoplewould be like, yeah, I feel
safe with my partner.
Sure, like I don't.
But there's so many differentkinds of safety too.
Like, do you feel emotionallysafe?
Do you feel physically safe?
Do you feel spiritually safe?
Do you feel mentally safe withthem?
Like, I mean, do you feel likeyou could come to them, you know
, and have these conversations?
And yeah, my last questionwould be I feel like I've tried
(49:15):
to say this like 10 times, mylast question, but one more.
But one more question.
My last question would be forsomeone that male, female that
feels that they can recognizethat they are closed off, like
they recognize that we can say,in terms of safety, like they
(49:38):
just don't feel safe enough,whether it's in themselves, with
their partner, whatever.
Like they don't feel safeenough to explore yet they want
to like someone that that feelslike oh wow.
Like I'm finally recognizing Ihave a lot of misconceptions and
I have a lot of these mythsbuilt up in my head.
(49:59):
Um, and I don't want to havethese myths and I don't want to
be having a bunch of vanilla sexquote.
I want to explore and I want tohave, you know, the best orgasm
of my life and experience themost pleasure for that person.
Where do we start?
Speaker 2 (50:20):
I think it starts with saying you know, you don't
have to go through this alone,right, and there's people out
there who are really passionateabout debunking these myths,
Right.
And so there's, in fact,there's a whole, you know,
(50:43):
there's a whole association.
There's several professionalassociations, so that is one.
So, like, this is figureoutableand you don't have to do it by
yourself.
And then the other piece isthat sometimes people confuse
trust and safety.
So you know, yeah, I feel safewith my partner, yeah, but do
you do you trust them with themost vulnerable aspects of you?
(51:05):
And one of the things thatwe're we're really getting at
when we ask about trust is likeare you trusting them not to
criticize you?
Are you trusting them to bewith you on this journey?
And so that is that's anotherthing.
So I would say you know whenpeople are really trying to
figure it out.
(51:25):
I would say you know whenpeople are really trying to
figure it out, if they have theability to work with a sex
therapist, I think that's agreat opportunity to do that.
You can do it as a couple, youcan do as an individual.
That would be probably one ofmy first things.
And then you know there's somegreat books out there that, like
Emily Nagowski's, come as youAre, I think, is a fantastic
(51:48):
book.
I give it to almost, or atleast recommend it to almost all
of my clients, regardless ofgender.
Right To kind of start doingsome of that early myth busting
(52:15):
busting.
Do you recommend couples versussingle more than another.
No, it really depends on whatthe issue is.
If it's something that is moreunderlying, like where the
person has their own like blocksor baggage, but they're no, my
partner's fine, they're likecompletely open.
You know, that might besomething that is more about
coming in as an individual, butalso you can start as an
(52:36):
individual and then get to apoint where it's like oh hey,
like now we're going to send youto somebody to work on as a
couple yeah, or sometimes peoplego to couples therapy and they
end up being referred forindividual.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
So yeah, okay, okay.
I'm always curious about that,like when, um, do you have a
hard stop right now?
I do Okay, okay, I just didn'twant to.
We'd never.
We did touch on human design,so that's fine.
So tell people where we canconnect with you, where do you
hang out the most?
And if they want to continuelearning from all of your great
(53:11):
wisdom, how can they do that?
Speaker 2 (53:12):
yeah, so probably I'm the most active on Instagram,
so that's emmasmithphd onInstagram and then I also have a
sub stack and if you go to myInstagram you can link it and
it's the intimate philosopher onsub stack.
And if you go there, there'sactually a little guide that I
(53:33):
put up for my subscribers thatyou can look at.
That talks about finding a goodtherapist and how to break up
with a not so great therapistand even when coaching versus
therapy might be moreappropriate, and so that may be
something that people can youknow, either read or download,
(53:55):
and hopefully that'll be helpful.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
I love that.
Yeah, definitely the differencebetween therapy and coaching, I
think would be very importantto to note.
Thank you so much.
This was so fun.
I will link all of that downbelow so if you're looking in
the description you'll have thelink to your Instagram and your
sub stack and your website andall the good things.
But thank you so much.
This is such an insightfulconversation and just really fun
(54:20):
to talk to you.
Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
Oh, thank you so much , Hannah.
It was great to be here.
Hello, welcome back to the podcast Journey to Well.
So I was telling Emma we haveEmma Smith, a certified sex and
trauma therapist, on the podcasttoday.
She's also a 4-1 sacralgenerator, so we're going to
talk a little bit about humandesign in between this podcast.
But I was telling Emma Ioccasionally will ponder like
(00:27):
who have I not really talked to?
What experts have I not reallytalked to on my podcast yet that
I personally would love to talkabout and I think that we need
to talk more about, and a fewmaybe a month ago now, I was
like I really need to have a sextherapist on my podcast.
We don't talk about sex openlyever.
(00:49):
Well, I mean, within my friendgroup I definitely do, but I
don't even talk about sex openlyon my platforms typically
because it's not very related tomy immediate business.
But I was like I really want tohave a sex therapist on my
podcast.
And then Emma reaches out andI'm like, yes, please, let's
have a conversation.
So I love your platform, I loveall of the open conversations
(01:13):
you have and I'm very excited tohave this conversation with you
.
But let's first let youintroduce yourself.
Who is Emma?
What brought you into sextherapy?
That's very interesting to me,and anything else that you want
to share.
Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Sure, absolutely.
Thank you for having me.
So yes, my name is Dr EmmaSmith and I'm a licensed
professional counselor and anASEC certified sex therapist and
trauma therapist.
And the way that I got into sextherapy was actually through
the trauma work.
And so when I was a babyhatchling counselor, like 12
(01:53):
years ago, and doing mypracticum and internship, you
know, fresh out of graduateschool, I I had been married to
Marine and so I thought that Iwas going to work with the
military, but then I ended up inthe middle of nowhere, texas,
with no military bases, and so,thank goodness, I had a
(02:19):
supervisor who was like actually, you know, trauma isn't all
that different and we can useyour interests and your skills
in this way with this differentpopulation that was sexual
assault survivors.
And so I started working withthem and I just found them to be
the most resilient, inspiring,badass women and it was all
women at that time that I hadever run across and everybody
(02:45):
was like, oh my gosh, that workmust be really heavy, and there
were parts of it that were heavy, but that's not.
When I look back on that time.
That is not what I recall fromthat time.
What I recall are people comingin and, you know, just being so
aware that these people hadsurvived the thing that had
(03:07):
happened to them, right and so,and watching them reclaim all of
these different aspects ofthemselves and be able to go
back to work and go back toschool and show up in their
friendships, and all of thatkind of good stuff.
Well, fast forward several yearslater and I'm realizing that,
(03:29):
yeah, they're showing up at workand they're showing up at
school, and they're showing upin their friendship circles and
maybe in their families andtheir communities, but the
bedroom is remaining elusive.
And it's because we don'treally talk about sex in trauma
therapy, right, we're usuallytalking about the restoration of
(03:50):
normalcy.
We're not necessarily keepingpeople all the way to where they
can experience embodiedpleasure again.
Wow, right.
And so, you know, the pandemichits and I, you know, I grew
mold on two sourdough startersand I was like, well, that's not
for me, so I'm going to have togo back to graduate school,
(04:11):
because this is what I'm good atand sourdough is not going to
be it.
So I went back and I got my PhDand I got certified in sex
therapy along the way.
So here I am and I grew old.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Oh my God, you're hilarious, I love that and
that's actually oh man.
I am so grateful that sexualtrauma, like big T trauma, is
not a part of my story, sothat's never actually something
that I considered that we don'ttalk about.
The actual like getting backinto the bedroom in trauma
therapy, which is wild, justlike you were thinking that it's
(04:50):
wild.
That's wild to me because, ofcourse, that seems like
something that would besomething that needs to be
talked about.
Which trauma therapy is wild tome in general?
I've also never I don't thinkI've ever had a trauma therapist
on my podcast and just kind oftalking about that aspect of
(05:13):
therapy and how it's very, Iwould assume, vastly different
than maybe what we think oftraditional therapy as being
Maybe different.
I would say heaviness.
I mean you're like, yeah, thatwasn't that heavy, but I would
think that it's much heavier itis, but there's also a baseline
(05:36):
to return to.
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
And so that's really lovely, in fact.
In fact, when I think about you, know, I think not every
therapist is the right fit forevery person or the right fit
for every concern Right, and soI love working with trauma.
I know that sounds like a weirdthing to say.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I do too in a different way, in a
non-therapeutic like non-therapyway.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
I do but like, but there's other issues that I'm
not particularly good attreating and one of them is like
chronic depression, because alot of the time it's it is a, a
baseline that the person is atand like.
That actually is the problem,and there's a whole different
(06:26):
set of skills and tools andstrengths that I have some
incredible colleagues who aretruly brilliant, and the way
that they approach their work isvastly different, right, so
yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
So this is just my cup of tea and educated in what
you are dealing with.
So not maybe going to a traumatherapist if it's trauma, or
going to someone that reallyreally deals with and enjoys
dealing with and has theexperience in dealing with
depression or anxiety orwhatever it is?
So sex, let's talk about it.
(07:22):
So I really want to.
One of the things that wetalked about is kind of
debunking some myths, and Iwould love to actually start
there Because, like we'vealready mentioned, we don't
really talk about sex.
And I will add, on top of that,we have a lot of preconceived
notions and a lot of ideas ofwhat good sex looks like, or
(07:48):
what the right or quote rightsex is, and if we don't, if we
don't fit in whatever mold thatwe have created that sex should
be, then we think thatsomething's wrong with us, or we
think something's wrong withour partner, or our partner
thinks something's wrong with us.
That's something that we shouldtalk about, because that's
(08:10):
happened to me a lot.
Like, oh, blah, blah, blah,like that's never happened to me
before.
And then I'm like, oh, issomething wrong with me?
Like because every other quote,every other quote you've been
with is one way and I'm theother way.
Is something wrong with me?
Like there's all of thesenotions that we have in our mind
, so I would love for you toshare maybe the most fun ones to
(08:33):
you, maybe the ones that youenjoy talking about the most, or
the ones that maybe come acrossyour therapy desk often.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yeah, okay, how much time do we have?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
ask often yeah, okay, how much time?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
do we have?
I know, I know I'm like wecould talk for three hours, but
you really really could.
Just on myths, it is so okay.
So the number one myth thatmaybe people don't necessarily
say, but I think is implied inso much of the conversations
that we have about sex, is whatcounts as sex.
(09:09):
What counts as sex, so mostpeople will.
When I say you know sex, mostpeople are thinking of
intercourse, and most people arethinking of what we call PIV,
or penis and vagina intercourse,right?
However, that is one version,right.
(09:34):
There are many versions.
Some involve penetration, somedo not, some involve very
specific body parts, some do not, yeah, right.
But if you ask different peopleabout what they think about sex
, you will get wildly differentanswers, right, and so I think
(09:56):
that's one of the things.
Then it's well, what counts asgood sex, right, and so here's
what I'm going to.
Here's what I'm going to.
I'm going to debunk this mythfor you.
Good sex is sex that you enjoyhaving.
That is good sex.
It is completely subjective.
(10:16):
If you enjoy it and you're like, oh, that was good, I would do
that again.
Great, you just had good sex,right.
If you're like I would like todo that more frequently.
Okay, maybe you're not havingenough sex.
If you're like I, would like todo that less frequently, maybe
you're having too much, oryou're having too much of the
(10:38):
wrong kind for you.
So I think that sometimes weput on, we put a lot of rules in
play and I get questions fromjournalists and different folks
in you know in the world who arelike how much sex do people
need to be?
Having as much as they want,right, as much as they want, up
(10:58):
until there is, of course, thattipping point where we talk
about out of control sexualbehavior, which is when it's
like really impeding on.
You know your life, right?
If you are missing work, right.
If you're no longer in thedriver's seat.
Well then, we're going to havea different conversation, but
for most of us out there, it'sgoing to be.
I don't know, are you happywith the amount of sex that
(11:20):
you're having and the way thatyou're having it?
And if so, great, you're havinggood sex.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Can you have too little sex?
Speaker 2 (11:29):
You can, but again, it's still on that subjective
piece, right?
So there are people and I haveworked with clients who are
truly ace and that means thatthey're asexual.
They do not experience desirefor sex in the same way that
many of us do, and if it doesn'tbother them, okay, yeah, it's
(11:55):
just you.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah.
So what happens when we arewith our partner and we have
different?
Uh, we have different.
You know like it's like.
My thought is oh, you have waytoo much sex or you have way too
little sex, and and the personyou know, the opposite person
(12:16):
feels the same, that it's eithertoo much or too little.
Or you, we have differentdefinitions of what good sex is
like.
Oh, I just felt that that wasgreat, and then he's like or
she's like, that was terrible.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, yeah.
So this is another great mythto kind of talk about.
So desire discrepancy is whatyou just described right, and it
is one of the most commonthings that couples navigate.
So if you are navigating thisin your relationship, it does
not mean that you're with thewrong person.
In fact, in some ways, I thinkthat desire discrepancy speaks
(12:55):
to actually a strength in therelationship, which is that
you're actually communicatingright.
If you're having a conversation, if you're able to look at your
partner and be like, hey, Ithink I would like to change
some things about our sex life,and they're also in that
conversation with you, that isfantastic, because that means
that you're actually able totalk about that right and
(13:17):
everybody's afraid that they'remessed up, I think, um, and so I
just want to debunk that.
So if you're having thisconversation, uh, doesn't mean
that there's anything wrong.
It actually means that there'ssomething right that you're able
.
This conversation doesn't meanthat there's anything wrong.
It actually means that there'ssomething right that you're able
to have that conversation.
So, with desire discrepancy,it's about, you know, really
(13:40):
kind of exploring, hey, likewell, what would good sex be
like for you and what would goodsex be like for you?
And how do we, you know, how dowe do this dance?
And, yes, some people would usethe word compromise.
I like the idea of a dancebecause it has fluidity to it,
has flow to it.
Sometimes people think that sexfor both partners, or really
(14:05):
good sex for both partners, hasto happen at the same time.
That's not necessarily true,right.
Sometimes, depending on thecouple, that could be completely
impossible, depending on whatpeople want, and guess what,
that's okay too.
You can have really good sexthat's focused on one partner's
(14:26):
pleasure, and then you can havea really good sex that's focused
on the other partner's pleasure.
So it's just about figuring outwhat works for the two of you
and throwing out any of thescripting that you're bringing
(14:51):
or any you know, your bestfriend or whoever.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
So, yeah, it's so hard to separate that I think
because we do have all of thesethese, yeah, preconceived
notions of, of of what it shouldbe like, or even realizing that
, oh, what I like maybe mypartner is not, that's not my
(15:17):
first, my partner's first choice, and then recognizing that's
okay, that there's nothing wrong.
Again, there's nothing wrongwith him or there's nothing
wrong with her, it's justrecognizing that we might have
different, different desires.
I like that you also brought uplike maybe we're not both
experiencing our like highestpleasure at the same time and
(15:40):
that's OK.
I also I mean all I can do.
Really I'm not well educated inthis, besides well educated in
my own experience.
So I'm like how much should Italk about my own experience?
But I will say in my experienceI have not come across many
(16:00):
partners that have thatperspective and even have the
perspective of like time.
I think every everyone that Ihave been with it's always like
fast, you know, and if it's, ifit's too long, then again
something's wrong or, you know,we lose interest.
I don't know what happens, butdo you know what I mean Like and
(16:22):
time I feel like is.
Is that a myth too?
Is there some myth around timethat we can talk about myth too.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Is there some myth around time that we can talk
about?
Yeah, absolutely so.
And again I'm going to use,like, what is generally true.
So I'm going to caveat this bysaying if this is not true for
you, that's okay.
You're probably normal for you,right?
So you know, for most peoplethere's two types of desire, and
one is spontaneous desire, andthat's where I don't know the
wind blows the right way, or thesunlight the clouds part and
the sunlight hits you.
And one is spontaneous desire,and that's where I don't know
the wind blows the right way, orthe sunlight the clouds part
(16:53):
and the sunlight hits you andyou're like, oh, okay, I'm ready
to go, right, that'sspontaneous.
And then there's this other one, that's responsive desire, and
that is where you know you'rejust kind of going along having
your day, and then your partneris like, hey, would you like to,
(17:14):
would you like to do someactivities, right?
And you kind of go like, oh, Iwasn't thinking about that
before, I was actually justloading the dishwasher, but yeah
, I think I could be open tothat, you know.
And then you go and you are opento it at the beginning, but you
might not actively be turned on, so to speak.
But as the encounter unfoldsthen you get into it Right, and
(17:40):
so that is obviously slowerbecause you were just doing
whatever it was that you weredoing.
Sex was not on the brain andyou kind of have to catch up.
Well, from the average woman, Ithink it's about 20 minutes
actually.
It takes from when desiresparks to when you are fully
aroused and able to be presentand and feel that and like again
(18:05):
, experience with may vary rightyeah, um, and that is more true
for women, but it's not onlytrue for women.
There are plenty of men outthere that experience responsive
desire, and sometimes we youknow, I think as a culture we
just expect that men are readyto have sex whenever, wherever
(18:27):
and however, and if they are notimmediately aroused, um,
sometimes their female partnersthink that something is wrong
with them.
Sometimes they think there'ssomething wrong with them
because nobody's ever said ohhey, foreplay might be for you
too.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
yeah, so that's a good point.
Actually, you know, like Foryeah, that can't.
Can it be enjoyable for themale to like?
We always talk about it for thefemale and you got to warm her
up as, as we say, but could befor the male to, is what you're
(19:05):
saying is what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, yeah, and so sometimes with my couples, you
know, I have something called asexual tasting menu and we go
through and like, you know whatare you setting your table with,
what is your appetizer course?
And a lot of that is foreplaybecause, guess what, what might
be a turn on for me may not workfor my partner, and vice versa.
So we want to know, like versa.
So we want to know like, hey,what, what does start to kind of
(19:31):
perk you up?
Yeah, Um and maybe it's, youknow.
Is it taking a shower?
Is it a massage?
Is it asking me about my dayand being interested in my
answer?
What you know, um, is it saying?
Is it telling a story?
(19:52):
Like hearing your partner tella story where they are talking
about you know something they'rereally excited or passionate
about, right, that can bearousing to somebody and you
just kind of have to.
You just kind of have to askand be interested in what they
actually say.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Yeah, yeah, right.
What if they don't know?
What if?
What if you're asking thesequestions Like what if, yeah,
what?
What if they're like I don'tknow what turns me on, or
whatever turns you on, turns meon.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, that's really hard, I know, and so and so
sometimes, you know, in aneffort to be a a good partner
quote, unquote, right whereyou're just like, oh, I'm, I'm
just whatever you want me to be,yes, yeah, and that's hard,
because I think that that issome cultural scripting and I
(20:50):
think that that is one whereit's like, oh well, maybe you
know, I think at this point Iwould probably say part of me
wants to be like, hey, thenmaybe this is a really good time
to go, maybe seek out a sextherapist and say, hey, like I
think I have some a block aroundthis, you know, and and like,
(21:13):
let's talk about that and thatperson you know, one of the
things that happened when Imoved to Tennessee is that I had
to distinguish between what asex therapist is and, like the
fact that I am not touch people.
Yeah, in my sessions we justtalk about it and I give people
(21:35):
resources, and then they havethe best homework that they've
ever gotten in their entire lifeto go home and like explore,
right, but you're not doing thatin my office oh my gosh.
I love that so, and nothingagainst people who do that work.
I'm just not even that much ofa hugger, so like that would not
be my area.
(21:55):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, I have great, yeah, Ihave like wonderful people in my
life who are way more embodiedin that way than I could ever
imagine to be, and I will letthem handle all of that Like
that is not my jam.
Right, but I will talk about itwith folks and and get them to
explore and maybe look at someof the underlying messages that
(22:18):
people gave them, maybe inchildhood, where they were
ashamed of their bodies or theway that their body functioned
or about some of the things thatthey desired, and a lot of
times when we start to untangleand explore that then all of a
sudden people have more capacityto open up and be more
explorative.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Right, yeah, you and I talked about when, when we
first connected.
Uh, you were also raisedCatholic and I I was baptized
Catholic.
I went to a Catholic highschool, catholic and I was
baptized Catholic.
I went to a Catholic highschool.
So I know a lot aboutCatholicism.
I didn't grow up going toCatholic church every day.
My parents were Catholic andthen when they got divorced they
(23:05):
both kind of got away from theCatholic church because there's
so much shame and shunning whenyou get divorced and you're
Catholic.
So I know a lot aboutCatholicism and I think that's
our story and I think a lot ofpeople also have a lot of shame
around desires and what theywant and just sexual drives.
(23:29):
Whether you were raisedCatholic or not, is what I'm
really trying to get to.
But you and I just kind of havethat connection.
But that was one of the thingsthat I realized that I really
had to work through with in myadult years was really beginning
(23:49):
to play around with.
This is what I like and there'snothing wrong with that, and
like this is how I am and thisis what turns me on and and
really exploring that, because Idon't know that when we haven't
moved through that shame,pressure, guilt, whatever you
(24:14):
want to call it, whatever wefelt in our childhood.
I don't know that we canpossibly then begin to explore
what you like, like if youhaven't even walked through the
shame and what had closed youoff.
I don't know that we couldreally explore like, oh,
actually this feels good to me.
(24:34):
It's just I don't know.
That's my story.
My sex was very robotic, what Ithought was supposed to be good
sex, and it wasn't terrible sex.
I mean it.
It it was very average sex, butit wasn't terrible.
But until I really dove intoeverything underneath the
surface, there wasn't anycapacity that I had to explore.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah, no, I understand that so much.
And you know, I did grow upCatholic and I went, I was
practicing for a long time, infact.
I went through, you know,catholic elementary school and
then I went to a Jesuit college,wow so, and you know, the first
time, the first time I had sexoutside of marriage, right, I
(25:23):
was in college and I went toconfession the next day, right,
and I had to tell this like 85year old priest and I'm thinking
, oh my gosh, how am I supposedto do this?
Uh, and you know they I don'tknow why, but they didn't have
it set up with the screen.
It was like face to face.
(25:44):
So I'm like face to face withlike, for all intents and
purposes, grandpa, right, oh myGod.
And I'm like, okay, wow, how doI say this?
You know, I think I ended upsaying like father, I
compromised my chastity Like theonly way that I could come up
(26:05):
with to say it, and I'm like ohGod, I can't believe.
I said that, and then the nextweek I had to go back and say it
again.
Right, oh man, I know, I knowit was.
It was actually kind of funnybecause I think after the second
time he was like you know,maybe, maybe you need to like
work through this and then youcan come back.
(26:27):
Yeah, you don't have to comeback every week.
Oh, my goodness, like okay,thank you um and so, yeah, I
remember that right.
But like it was also for me itwas very, it was very vanilla,
because, like, where am Igetting, where am I getting my
education from?
And then also, I, I didn't evennecessarily understand that sex
(26:51):
was for my pleasure, I justunderstood that it was something
that somebody wanted from meand so my ability to meet that
expectation or exceed it waslike how I rated it.
Yeah, but it was really weirdbecause I I joke around that, um
, I was like, oh my gosh, like Ithink I kind of acted sounds so
(27:14):
gendered, but like I think Ikind of acted like a dude during
sex, even though I was havingsex with men, because we would
get done and I would like pop upand leave, bye, bye, bye, bye.
Like I know you're done with me, I'm done with you, goodbye.
Yeah, because I didn't want tostick around for, like the
debriefing that I had made up inmy head that they were going to
(27:37):
be like well, you didn't know,interesting, apparently it was
like a major power move.
Yeah, I didn't feel that wayabout it at the time.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Ah, interesting.
Yeah, I mean, we don't, wedon't really, we don't really
want to have the conversation,whether it's like the first time
we have it or afterwards, Idon't think we, we really, even
with our partner, it's always.
It's always this uncomfortable,this uncomfortable, this
uncomfortable thing, and I don't, I don't really know why it's
(28:12):
so uncomfortable.
Besides, just societally, it'slike oh, we don't talk about sex
, we don't talk about that yeah,I mean, I think purity culture
is everywhere and even if itwasn't part of your family, you
know, in that like, hey, don'tdo this.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Um, it's in the soup, right, like it's just it's in
the water.
And so really, even people who,I think, grow up even, you know
, in very non-religious, verysecular households can often get
the purity culture backlash.
And so, yeah, I think it wasn't.
Even I was in my 30s, probablybefore I was like, oh, I think
(28:50):
it wasn't.
Even I was in my thirties,probably before I was like, oh,
I think this gets to be about me.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Well, that's really toughbecause I think I had that
transition too and I'm like no,I don't want to just be having
sex if I'm not feeling immensepleasure or pleasure at all.
And then you kind of have thatpushback, you know, from your
(29:16):
partner or different partners,but from different people, that
you it's like no, this is alsoI'm half of this puzzle piece.
It's not just for you, but Ialso think that that's a lot of
like stereotyp.
Years ago, maybe three years agoI don't even know what it was
(29:48):
called it was something aboutlike design your sex room or
like something about that.
And there was one couple andshe was like, yeah, I've never
had an orgasm and they had likethree kids and they'd been
married for like 20 years.
I was like what, you've neverhad an orgasm.
And not even judging her, herlike I was just like that's
(30:09):
ridiculous.
I can't even imagine neverfeeling that.
Um, but it was almost just kindof like, at least from what I
recall, and this was years ago,but from what I recall her, her
saying was like I didn't reallyknow that I was supposed to.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Yeah, like I didn't know that that was an option.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
No, that's real, that's real.
Well, and if we can jump backto myth busting for a second,
you know there's, it's upwardsof, I think it's 85 or 80% of
women cannot achieve orgasmthrough penetration alone.
Right and like.
That's just.
Most of us need clitoralstimulation as well, and so if
(30:57):
you don't know that, you mightthink that there's something
wrong with you and if yourpartner doesn't know that they
might think there's somethingwrong with them right when
really, it's like actuallyyou're in the majority, yeah,
right, and there's even some newstudies that are have come out
recently that we're looking at.
You know, even women, uh, whocan have orgasms through
(31:22):
penetrative sex.
Quote, unquote alone.
Um, they have started lookingat, seeing, like actually, is it
like the angles of the way thatpeople's pelvises are tilted,
or the way that their bodies areshaped or whatever that
something is actuallystimulating the clitoris, even
if you don't think that'shappening.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
I've always thought that too.
I've had a few conversationsand I'm like, okay, so you had
an orgasm while there ispenetration, but like you were
still externally stimulated.
So that's still not yet,because I've always, I've always
been like I don't even thinkthat that's like remotely
possible for me and I've neverreally even tried because I'm
(32:04):
just like I don't, I don't, Idon't have any like badge of
honor that I'm trying to wearand be like oh yeah, I can do it
just from penetration.
But even the people that I'vetalked to, I'm like, yeah, no,
it's still, and I'm sure thatthere's people that can, and
good for you.
But I was listening to apodcast the other week and and
(32:28):
it was with a sex coach and shesaid there's something like 20
different orgasms that femalescan have.
Have you heard this?
Speaker 2 (32:33):
I have heard it.
I have heard it.
I can't run them off and namethem but, there are lots of
different ways that people canexperience a release of of
pleasure and you know, there'seven I have seen some studies
where people experienced traumaand they lose the ability to
function in certain parts oftheir body.
(32:54):
But the brain remaps and theycan experience erotic pleasure
in different parts of their body.
So, I mean the possibilities.
You know we are.
We are just scratching thesurface.
Now I think of what's possible,yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Yeah, I really do think that it's.
It's very interesting to me andso cool to kind of talk about,
I mean, just the human body ingeneral, like the way that we're
able to hear heal ourselves,the wisdom of our body, and then
, if you just put that in aconversation about sex, like
there's so many ways that welimit ourselves, I believe, and
(33:33):
we have again these ideas in ourhead of this is what sex should
look like, or this is how sexshould be, or, you know, this is
even what an orgasm should looklike and sound like and feel
like, and what if it didn't haveto be just that?
There was something that yousaid when we were talking and
(33:54):
you said something about likebeing able to reframe what's
possible and then explore, likeexplore what you want.
Can you dive into that, becauseI feel like it's very aligned
with this?
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
So when sometimes people say, kind of going back
to what you had said about like,if somebody's like, well, I
don't, I don't know what I want,well, sometimes it can be
difficult to know what's whatyou want if you don't know
what's possible, if peoplehaven't laid out a framework for
you, right, so you shouldn'tquote, unquote need a framework.
(34:29):
I know that people will saythat, but just do you.
Well, that's lovely If you aresomebody who is completely
comfortable.
You know coloring outside thelines or writing in a completely
blank notebook, but some of uslike lines.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Some of us like lines , and so that's why you know you
need a starting point.
And then I think, and then youcan have creativity flow.
But I don't want anybody tofeel like, oh well, I'm not
creative, so I'm not going to beable to do this.
No, you can.
You can start out with someguidelines and then feel free to
modify.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I always said that about myselfI'm not creative, but then
that's what I really liked.
You said with your couples youhave some cookbook, what did you
call it?
Speaker 2 (35:15):
The sexual tasting menu.
Tasting menu.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
So is that kind of?
What you're getting at is, isthose are some guidelines and I
would assume?
Well, explain it.
I don't want to assume.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
So the sexual tasting menu I have two versions right,
and one of them is completelyblank and that's for my couples
that maybe are a little bit.
They either have moreexperience or they've just been
more sexually open over theyears, okay, and they do have an
idea of what they like.
And then I have one that kindof has some yes, no, maybe
(35:47):
checklist style things in it andthat is just to kind of say,
hey, here's some common onesthat people like, maybe, or are
curious about or might want totry, and so that can give you a
starting point.
Yeah, but sometimes like, andthen you know there, but please
feel free to like, cross out theones you don't like and write
(36:10):
in something if you think of itbetter.
Like, don't feel like I am notthe chef, right?
Yeah, you, you two, arecreating this for yourselves.
But here's, here's some promptsto get you started, kind of
like journaling prompts, right?
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
I um.
So we're gonna do a littlehuman design, which I've never
talked in terms of sex and humandesign.
But I want to say something.
And then I have another,another question.
But so in human design we haveand I talk about this often on
my podcast and on my channel wehave what's called energy
centers.
When you say that you had yourchart pulled, so, like when you
(36:47):
saw that picture, it's called abody graph chart.
You have all these shapes.
So you have a triangle pointingup on, like where your forehead
would be.
You have a triangle pointingdown where, like your chin would
be, you have a square whereyour heart would be.
So we call those energy centersand they're either going to be
colored in or not colored in,depending on or there'll be a
(37:10):
specific color, or like white,depending on what chart you,
where you pull your chart from,and you have I'm talking about
the two top ones you have a notcolored in, so a white upper
triangle which is called yourcrown energy center, and then
you have a colored in which wewould call defined energy center
(37:33):
, when the triangle is pointingdown, which is called your Ajna.
I have the same thing.
I have an undefined crown,defined Ajna and you're really
reminding me of this when you'retalking, because that specific
combination, when we have anundefined crown and a defined
Ajna, we do really well when wehave a little bit of inspiration
(37:56):
.
So like we need just like alittle spark of inspiration.
So how I use that in mybusiness is sometimes I will
follow other human designexperts or cycle alignment
coaches and see how they'reposting reels, not what they're
posting, but like the design oftheir reel or their hook and
(38:17):
then explanation and like howthey're kind of doing that.
Because with the undefinedcrown is what this like kind of
behind the human design behindit is the undefined crown, is
what the kind of behind thehuman design behind it is the
undefined crown.
It's like we're really open toideas and we need those ideas to
flow in and we need to see them, just like we need the journal
prompts or like the ideas, thechecklist, and then you're
(38:39):
defined Ajna is your third eye.
So it's like you're processing,how you process information.
So you could be like I reallylike what Emma said here, like
her invitation here, except Idon't know, except, instead of
using chocolate sauce, use likemaple syrup, right, or something
like that, right, like if we'rekind of having, like sexy play
(39:02):
and that would be like a waylike cause you are going to be
able to process that and be like, but this is really what I want
.
So it'd be really interestingactually to work with clients in
this in this way, like sex,therapy, human design, and to
say, ok, maybe, maybe, andreally just to see, I really
like to research and kind oflike find information.
(39:26):
So it'd be interesting to seethe ones that do really well
with the open checklist.
Do they have more defined, likea more defined crown and more
defined Ajna, or the ones thatreally need that like
inspiration.
Do they have the more undefinedcenters?
Just to put it in human designterms, and it's really helpful.
(39:48):
You don't even have to knowyour human design.
Like these are little piecesthat I like to bring in.
You don't have to know yourhuman design, but knowing how
you like to generate ideas, likehow your creativity is sparked.
Do you just really like beingcreative in the bedroom?
(40:08):
Do you like having all of thesecreative ideas?
And can you talk to yourpartner about like hey, I really
like coming up with these ideas.
Are you down to try them withme?
Like it might flop, it mightnot work at all, but let's try
it.
Or do you really like gaininginspiration, whether that's
talking to a sex coach or a sextherapist, or talking to other
(40:33):
friends or listening to podcasts, like there's so many ways now,
I mean I'm here saying likenobody talks about sex anymore.
We actually are talking aboutsex a lot, a lot more.
So there's a lot, a lot ofgreat ways outside of like porn,
which is not representative notrepresentative, I think, of sex
(40:55):
.
But there's so many ways thatwe can gain inspiration and
creativity that there doesn'tneed to be, we don't need to be
in this box.
But knowing I guess that's whatI'm getting at Knowing your
thought, processing how you gain, how you gain your insight and
then how you process yourinsight could, could be very
(41:18):
exciting.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Yeah, no, I agree, I agree, yeah for sure.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Lot more males come in your office, which is very
exciting.
Are you finding that there'ssome sort of particular pattern
or underlying pattern of whythese males now are coming in
and wanting to talk about it?
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Yeah, so it's.
It's actually been veryinteresting because this is you
know, I moved from Washington DCto Tennessee, to Nashville
about just over a year ago now,primarily with women and the
(42:25):
LGBT community for most of mycareer and I've been open to
working with men.
But when you look at like mymarketing and like who I'm
talking to and stuff like that,I am not marketing towards men
and so it was very interestingwhen they start coming in and
part of it, and especially likesome more conservative men
(42:46):
coming in and I'm like, oh, thisis okay, Well, come on in.
But like also really.
you know, yeah, and sometimesI'm really curious and they're
like oh well, I'm not going torun into you anywhere outside of
here.
And so I think that I love that.
I'm like, yeah, I wouldn't wantto run into my therapist either
, right.
No way Come on in Um, but one ofthe things that there, a lot of
(43:10):
them come in because, um,either, you know, they're
referred by another therapistwho's like I am not equipped to
talk about sex, right, becausewe don't necessarily teach
therapists how to talk about sex.
Sure, we don't necessarilyteach therapists how to talk
about sex.
Actually, maybe you get onecourse, one if that, but it's
not required for most states, soyou could not, you know, ever
(43:36):
have any education in that, andthen you're just open to all of
the myths that the rest of uswere.
So either they're gettingreferred that way or they're
(44:07):
coming in because they haveanxiety related to performance
and a lot of times it's erectiledysfunction.
And you know, I most had yourlabs run.
You know, have you been to youractual doctor?
Because there are somephysiological things that can
manifest and then we want to getthat checked out and so and I'm
not qualified to diagnose that,so I will refer you, happily,
to people who can, but a lot oftimes they'll be like yep, you
know, believe me, you were thelast person I was going to come
(44:28):
see.
Like I've already exhausted allof these other ones Okay.
Got it Noted and they, uh, theyget really spun up about not
being able to perform, and partof it is because of what we were
talking about earlier, wherethey don't know that responsive
desire is a thing, or if they doknow it's a thing, they don't
(44:52):
know it's a thing for them.
Yeah, right, yeah.
And so so I talk and I getreally nerdy and I talk about
the brain and I talk aboutwhat's going on and that you
have, you know, you have yourwanting system, which is your
desire.
You have your wanting system,which is your desire, and you
have your liking system, whichis pleasure, and a lot of times
(45:12):
we overemphasize the desiresystem without talking about
what feels pleasurable.
And a lot of men are actuallyreally disembodied, and so I
call it brain in a jar syndrome,like you're just you're a brain
in a jar and you're a brain ina jar, and then sometimes you
have a penis right, like nothingin between.
(45:35):
Um, and so we really talk abouthey, what temperature do you
like?
Your shower, you know?
Or what types of cloths feelsgood on your skin and they're
like wrong, you know what.
(45:55):
What smells do you like?
Do you like, you know, thedaylight bulbs, or do you like
warm lighting, like all of thosetypes of things?
How loud do you like warmlighting, like all of those
types of things?
How loud do you like your music?
Why Like all of that?
And they're like, why do youhave me talking about?
Yeah right, because it's aboutbeing embodied friend you know,
yeah, and so we talk about that.
(46:17):
And sometimes it can be, youknow, their partners may have
myths that they're holding on toabout you know.
Well, if you're not arousedimmediately, there must be
something wrong with me.
And then these guys don't feelthat way.
I actually haven't run acrossanybody who's like, yeah, I'm
just not attracted to my partner, wow.
A lot of times they're like, no, I am, but like, ah, it's not
(46:42):
working, yeah, and so, and I'mlike, well, anxiety is also not
going to help, so kind of relaxinto that.
But yeah, they've been comingin and it's, it's very rewarding
work to do, actually, becausewe really get.
In order to do that work, youreally have to get up under
(47:03):
somebody's armor yeah, right,and and make it safe to say, hey
, you are human.
Yeah, just like everybody else.
And you know, bodies are weird,right, bodies are weird,
especially in sex.
Bodies make weird sounds,bodies look weird at different
angles, like it.
(47:23):
It just happens, you know, andit's okay.
And sex doesn't have to beserious.
You know, sex is an adultversion of play and we can only
play when we feel safe, right,and so sometimes it's about that
If you are hypercritical aboutyour performance, guess what
You're not going to enjoy.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Yeah.
Right, so yeah guess whatyou're not going to enjoy?
Yeah, right, so yeah, that wasreally cool.
Thank you for sharing that andand it is we don't.
I can't think of many thingsthat are more vulnerable than
sex, and we think of it and wehave so many layers to it and so
(48:06):
many ideas about it and and alot, oftentimes a lot, of shame
around it or a lot of guilt orlack of confidence.
I mean even the people that comeacross very confident.
We all have moments of feelinginadequate or feeling, um, like
some, you know, maybe somethingis wrong with us.
(48:28):
Or yeah, feeling in your headand you're like I want to feel
pleasure right now.
I just I feel so stressed or Idon't feel safe.
I mean, that's a whole notherhour conversation is talking
about safety.
Do you actually?
And?
And what does feeling safe looklike for you?
(48:49):
Because I think a lot of peoplewould be like, yeah, I feel
safe with my partner.
Sure, like I don't.
But there's so many differentkinds of safety too.
Like, do you feel emotionallysafe?
Do you feel physically safe?
Do you feel spiritually safe?
Do you feel mentally safe withthem?
Like, I mean, do you feel likeyou could come to them, you know
, and have these conversations?
And yeah, my last questionwould be I feel like I've tried
(49:15):
to say this like 10 times, mylast question, but one more.
But one more question.
My last question would be forsomeone that male, female that
feels that they can recognizethat they are closed off, like
they recognize that we can say,in terms of safety, like they
(49:38):
just don't feel safe enough,whether it's in themselves, with
their partner, whatever.
Like they don't feel safeenough to explore yet they want
to like someone that that feelslike oh wow.
Like I'm finally recognizing Ihave a lot of misconceptions and
I have a lot of these mythsbuilt up in my head.
(49:59):
Um, and I don't want to havethese myths and I don't want to
be having a bunch of vanilla sexquote.
I want to explore and I want tohave, you know, the best orgasm
of my life and experience themost pleasure for that person.
Where do we start?
Speaker 2 (50:20):
I think it starts with saying you know, you don't
have to go through this alone,right, and there's people out
there who are really passionateabout debunking these myths,
Right.
And so there's, in fact,there's a whole, you know,
(50:43):
there's a whole association.
There's several professionalassociations, so that is one.
So, like, this is figureoutableand you don't have to do it by
yourself.
And then the other piece isthat sometimes people confuse
trust and safety.
So you know, yeah, I feel safewith my partner, yeah, but do
you do you trust them with themost vulnerable aspects of you?
(51:05):
And one of the things thatwe're we're really getting at
when we ask about trust is likeare you trusting them not to
criticize you?
Are you trusting them to bewith you on this journey?
And so that is that's anotherthing.
So I would say you know whenpeople are really trying to
figure it out.
(51:25):
I would say you know whenpeople are really trying to
figure it out, if they have theability to work with a sex
therapist, I think that's agreat opportunity to do that.
You can do it as a couple, youcan do as an individual.
That would be probably one ofmy first things.
And then you know there's somegreat books out there that, like
Emily Nagowski's, come as youAre, I think, is a fantastic
(51:48):
book.
I give it to almost, or atleast recommend it to almost all
of my clients, regardless ofgender.
Right To kind of start doingsome of that early myth busting
(52:15):
busting.
Do you recommend couples versussingle more than another.
No, it really depends on whatthe issue is.
If it's something that is moreunderlying, like where the
person has their own like blocksor baggage, but they're no, my
partner's fine, they're likecompletely open.
You know, that might besomething that is more about
coming in as an individual, butalso you can start as an
(52:36):
individual and then get to apoint where it's like oh hey,
like now we're going to send youto somebody to work on as a
couple yeah, or sometimes peoplego to couples therapy and they
end up being referred forindividual.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
So yeah, okay, okay.
I'm always curious about that,like when, um, do you have a
hard stop right now?
I do Okay, okay, I just didn'twant to.
We'd never.
We did touch on human design,so that's fine.
So tell people where we canconnect with you, where do you
hang out the most?
And if they want to continuelearning from all of your great
(53:11):
wisdom, how can they do that?
Speaker 2 (53:12):
yeah, so probably I'm the most active on Instagram,
so that's emmasmithphd onInstagram and then I also have a
sub stack and if you go to myInstagram you can link it and
it's the intimate philosopher onsub stack.
And if you go there, there'sactually a little guide that I
(53:33):
put up for my subscribers thatyou can look at.
That talks about finding a goodtherapist and how to break up
with a not so great therapistand even when coaching versus
therapy might be moreappropriate, and so that may be
something that people can youknow, either read or download,
(53:55):
and hopefully that'll be helpful.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
I love that.
Yeah, definitely the differencebetween therapy and coaching, I
think would be very importantto to note.
Thank you so much.
This was so fun.
I will link all of that downbelow so if you're looking in
the description you'll have thelink to your Instagram and your
sub stack and your website andall the good things.
But thank you so much.
This is such an insightfulconversation and just really fun
(54:20):
to talk to you.
Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
Oh, thank you so much , Hannah.
It was great to be here.
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