Step into the world of red light therapy in this enlightening episode featuring Bjørn Ekeberg, co-founder of Recharge Health and FlexBeam Red Light Belt.
As awareness grows around the benefits of red light, it’s essential to understand the science that supports its effectiveness, especially with near-infrared light, which penetrates deeper than conventional wavelengths. Bjørn shares his journey from philosophy to health technology and explains how this healing light can aid muscle recovery, reduce inflammation, and offer a wealth of benefits for overall health.
We delve into how red light therapy initially stemmed from NASA’s research, highlighting its historical significance and modern-day application. You’ll learn why the correct dosage and positioning are critical for maximizing benefits and the intriguing experiences of users who have incorporated this therapy into their routines, particularly women seeking hormonal balance and relief from menstrual discomfort.
By sharing insights, experiences, and scientific knowledge, this episode aims to highlight the emerging field of light therapy as a promising avenue for holistic health. Join us to discover how integrating light into your health regimen can be a game-changer.
Interested in exploring this transformative tool for yourself? Visit Recharge Health’s website to learn more and unlock your potential with light! Use code: journeytowell for a special discount!
Let's connect on social media! You can find me @ _journeytowell
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be well, my friend
xx Hannah
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello, welcome back to the podcast Journey to Well.
So today's going to be a reallyfun one, because I haven't
talked too much about red lighttherapy before.
I talk a lot about it on myInstagram.
If you don't already follow meon Instagram, I have a red light
panel and I talk about some ofthe benefits.
But we're going to go reallydeep with Bjorn Eckeberg panel.
(00:24):
And I talk about some of thebenefits, but we're going to go
really deep with Bjorn Eckeberg.
He is the CEO and co-founder ofRecharge Health, also a
philosopher of science, so hehas so many fun kind of aligned
pieces of history and backgroundthat we were chatting about
before we started recording.
So, bjorn, you know that ifyou've listened to my podcast,
(00:45):
you know that I like to kind ofhand over the reins and allow my
guests to introduce themselves.
So I would love a little bitabout who you are and maybe even
we can kind of get into whateven got you interested in red
light therapy.
Coming from philosopher ofscience to red light therapy is
a super interesting switchover,so I would love to hear a little
(01:07):
bit about that.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Thanks, hannah, and it's a pleasure to be on.
I'm very excited to have thisconversation with you and I was
given a serendipitous kind ofopportunity about six years ago.
I was on track to.
I've written a book about thebasics of physics and cosmology
from a philosophical perspectiveand I had that as a kind of
(01:31):
background.
I've been dabbling withfilmmaking and other things.
I had a career path going verystrongly in a certain direction
when I came across.
Well, I am now two of myco-founders that I knew from
before, who had discovered a lotof research from NASA and
PubMed studies that showedremarkable physiological effects
(01:53):
when the human body is exposedto certain wavelengths of light
in specific parts of thespectrum.
This is near infrared and redlight, which we can talk more
about.
But I was blown away because wehaven't heard about this before
and that research is actuallydecades old.
This is not something that wasdiscovered yesterday.
Nasa developed, actually in theearly 2000s, prototypes for
(02:15):
this for astronauts to healfaster in space, and I think so.
This is not new at all, butpeople don't know about it and I
realized when I dug into itthat the reason we don't know
about it and I realized when Idug into it that the reason we
don't know about it is becauseit hasn't been made really
accessible to people.
You kind of have to, as we'llget into, like sign up for a big
panel and like there's, there's.
(02:36):
You have to be really, reallyinto it and know your thing, and
we wanted to create a devicethat is so easy to use that it
can be embedded in everybody'shome, and so I shared with my
co-founders that we met sixyears ago, kind of on a fluke,
and one of them, a medicaldoctor who's worked on this
technology for decades andwanting to get it in the hands
(02:56):
of people so they don't have tocome to a clinic like hers, is
let's make something that can bein everybody's homes.
Let's make this that can be ineverybody's homes.
Uh, let's make this technologywidely available.
And I saw firsthand some of theeffects and stuff and I
interviewed people and uh, yeah,I joined a train early on.
I took a chance on this becauseI thought it's the most
(03:18):
exciting opportunity to get tospread something that can
benefit so many people, and Ididn't know what I signed up for
six years ago.
But here we are and, yeah,we're now one of the purveyors
of the more advanced lighttherapy solution and working on
ways to make this even moreaccessible for people and people
(03:41):
to use, so everyone can haveone.
That's my way of shortintroduction.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
No, I love it.
I love it.
I do think that red lighttherapy is becoming more talked
about, although obviously one ofthe most exciting parts of
having you on this podcast iseven I don't know a lot of the
science behind it.
It's more just oh, red lighttherapy is good for you, it's
(04:08):
good for your skin, right, andwe'll get there, like the
differences.
But at least I would assumethat a lot of my listeners
because this is kind of where Istarted is just knowing there's
benefits to your skin.
It can help with anti-aging,which is very important to women
.
And then I kind of stopped therefor a long time until more
(04:30):
recently, I've gotten into theNIR, the different wavelength
frequencies for penetratingdeeper into your muscles and not
just helping you know surfacelevel skin issues.
So I would love to dive intomaybe this is just diving right
in, but I'm like such a scienceperson.
I really love the data behindit.
(04:51):
So I would love to dive into.
What are the differencesbetween red light and NIR?
What the heck is NIR?
And are there even moredifferent frequencies than those
for when we're talking redlight?
Obviously there's differentfrequencies.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, I mean certainly, let's dive in.
I can say from the outset thatthe research on this is there's
quite a lot.
There's, you know, thousands ofstudies already.
When we started and there wereabout six years ago when we had
our idea for how to make this itwas a very niche kind of thing.
(05:28):
Like we saw, there were sort oflike biohackers that adopted it
and started using it and wordwas spreading that this was
something, but it was still farfrom where it is today.
So in the time spent that, wegot our product first to market
through development and thenstarted selling it and finding
our audience base.
There's also been an explosionin awareness around red light
(05:52):
therapy, the cosmetic aspectsespecially, and there's also
been an explosion of healthtracking devices that people are
wearing like increasinglywearables to have data on
themselves.
This is part of a broader trend, like we saw this early and we
kind of bet on this becomingmore of a mainstream thing that
people are looking to improvetheir health, take health into
(06:15):
their own hands, and they'relooking for alternate ways and
are not really trusting thattheir regular doctor will give
them the best health advice.
Right, are not really trustingthat their regular doctor will
give them the best health advice.
So there's a huge need and hugedemand for thinking outside of
the traditional medical healthcare system.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
And what?
Speaker 2 (06:32):
we felt we were sitting on was a potential
solution that doesn't replaceall of that, but it's like
highly complementary and thatpeople ought to know about.
At the same time as awarenesshas just exploded and now every
person I talk to, especially inthe US, they've all heard of it
but almost nobody really knowswhat it is unless they're using
(06:56):
it.
And it's a potential pitfall,or point of confusion at least,
is that there's so manyoverlapping claims and benefits
and different applications andred light therapy is
increasingly associated withskin and cosmetics.
Yeah, that you touched on.
So part of the confusion isthat the term red light therapy
(07:19):
that we commonly use and thatcovers things like our device
and panels so on, is two typesof wavelengths.
So there's red light, and redlight is very well demonstrated
is great for skin.
It improves collagen production, elastin in the skin, so it can
be very beneficial to beexposed to relatively low dose,
(07:40):
but a consistent dose of redlight.
This comes from sunlight, theredness in sunlight.
It's the same kind ofwavelength as in the visible
spectrum.
So you'll see tons of masks andthings on the market right now
that are like, basically, redlight devices.
However, the most powerful inthe research and in the actual
(08:04):
application of what we call redlight therapy is in NIR, as you
called it, near infrared light.
So this is light that is justoff the visible spectrum.
It's in the infrared range,which is a whole sort of long
bandwidth of the wholeelectromagnetic spectrum.
If you're thinking about energyas a total field coming from
the sun, infrared covers a largepart of the spectrum.
(08:26):
We can't see it, but we canfeel it.
It's associated with heat.
So actually over 50% of theenergy we get from the sun is in
the infrared range.
So it's invisible to us but wecertainly feel it.
On a warm day If you use athermal camera, thermal imaging
camera, you can scan acrossaround you and you see when the
(08:46):
sun is up there is enormousreflection of infrared in nature
and in like leaves and andrivers and so on.
If you look at an urbanlandscape with asphalt, it's
fully absorbed.
There's nothing it's absorbedinto the heat.
So infrared is around us allthe time and it's part of the
natural spectrum of the sun.
(09:07):
So near infrared is a specificpart of that broader infrared
range in which all the researchis showing that between 800 to
880 nanometers, which is a partof the spectrum, something
happens physiologically in thebody that, in a simplified sense
, is the healing response in thebody.
(09:27):
The biological explanation isthe mitochondria, which are the
organelles in your cells thatare responsible for energy
production.
So your mitochondria, whichmake up a large part of your
body.
They're, like, really crucialto your cells and to your
overall health.
They respond when they areexposed to this light by
(09:50):
producing more energy, and whatthe cells do, and what they're
trained to do, is to repair andrecover, etc.
So when you are able to exposethem to the right dosage of that
kind of light, they basicallybecome much more effective at
what they do.
So they produce more energy atthe cellular level and then that
kickstarts your body's naturalhealing process, but kind of
(10:14):
turbocharged right.
So you can get results like 30,40% faster recovery times from a
muscle injury, for example,like not just marginal benefits
but like a significantimprovement.
So this is really what sort ofblew us away the red light we
kind of knew about, and that'sfine and we have that built into
our device.
But having a strong nearinfrared component means that
(10:37):
you're able to treat a wholerange of things muscular
skeletal of things, muscularskeletal types of conditions.
And the trick here about nearinfrared, what makes it
specifically so powerful, isthat it's a long wavelength that
is able to penetrate the skin.
So we can't see it because it'stoo long for our eyes, but it's
(11:00):
just long enough to be able tosneak past the skin.
And if you have a device thatgoes straight on your skin, you
can get two, three inches typepenetration with the right dose.
So, if you think about that fora second, how deep you can go
beneath the surface of the skin,just skin level.
You're able to target, like allyour muscles, even some organs
(11:23):
or your gut or anywhere You'reable to actually stimulate them
with this kind of light.
And so that, of course, has alot of promise for, like anyone
with health concerns, rangingfrom athletes and biohackers but
to more general people who justwant an energy boost or a
health boost.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
So it goes beyond skin deep.
Does this do anything to yourbones?
Speaker 2 (11:48):
uh, it also can.
Yeah, if you can reach thebones with the penetration,
there are studies showingeffects on bone healing yeah,
very clear research showing.
Also, stem cell production isanother aspect, um, that is also
stimulated from this.
But it's all, then, abouthaving the right dosage at the
right place so you're able topenetrate deeply.
(12:10):
That's the power of nearinfrared, and that's why we set
our sights on developing adevice that had a very powerful
near infrared setting, becausethat way you're able to treat
things in the body that go wellbeyond the skin able to treat
things on the body that go wellbeyond the skin.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah, so one of the things that I very briefly
researched and I'm sure that youcan more eloquently speak on it
is with the dosage as well, asI'm curious because I know that
we were just talking about yourred light panel goes directly on
your skin, but some researchthat I came across was kind of
talking about the distance thatyou should have your near
(12:50):
infrared light panel, becauseit's almost like I mean, if
you're not watching the video,it's almost like a prism, is
that what the shape is?
It kind of comes out in a v andso if you have it a little bit
further away, it's able to covera little bit more surface area,
although what you're saying, Iassume it's just not penetrating
as deep.
But why did you createsomething or why is this?
(13:11):
Why is it better to havesomething that goes on your skin
?
Is it just because it canpenetrate a little bit deeper?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
it can be much more effective and go deeper.
So for those who are watchingthe video, I'll just show, show
you.
This is FlexBeam.
This is a belt-like shape Likeit's really a belt more than
it's a panel, with light pods.
That beeping sound is meturning it off.
I just want to show you whatthe lights look like.
They look purple For a secondor two, but it's got three light
(13:43):
pods connected to a controller.
This gives you basically thesame it's the same power as in a
large panel, but packed into abelt like shape that you can
wear.
Okay.
The reason you want to considerthis kind of design, or like why
you want it on the skin, isbecause when it's on the skin
you don't lose any of the energyand it all goes into the body.
(14:06):
If you're standing five, 10inches away from a panel, you
are losing 80% of its power,like the light diffuses.
So it's just it's actually verybasic physics, right that the
further you are away, the lesseffect you can get from the
(14:27):
actual device.
Now the reason with your panelwhy you have to stand at a
certain distance to it, istwofold.
One is that your panel islikely to get very hot.
If you were to stick your skinvery close to it, it would have
almost a burning kind of feeling.
It would be too hot for you tobe close to it.
(14:47):
Panels also have very highelectromagnetic frequency
radiation, so-called EMFs,because they're plugged into the
wall and they're not encased oranything.
They're just open lights.
So when you do an EMF readingaround something like a panel,
it really is like it's quite alot.
It's almost like level of acell phone, yeah, right.
(15:08):
So you want to have a distanceto be more safe, but you need to
keep the same distance in orderto be consistent in your
treatment.
So if you like, for like oneday you're just leaning further
back from the panel, you can getlike half the dose of what you
got yesterday.
Yeah.
Right.
All of this is like it's whenyou really think about it.
(15:30):
You get your head into it andyou think about how the physics
of it works.
It is quite obvious, but it'snot so easy to understand when
you start out yeah right andpanels are produced uh, we know,
like all the different panels,and some of them are great
quality in terms of lights andso on, so I'm not going to talk
them down and say that they arebullshit.
(15:51):
They're just.
It's a, it's a way ofdelivering light that is factory
and production driven.
They are basically.
They come out of the grow upindustry.
They are actually light forplants, and when they discovered
that you could, that certainwavelengths were something that
the human body responded to,they just basically replaced the
(16:13):
light, used the same design andpumped out panels.
So it's designed for plants andit's not really designed for
humans, and we wanted to reversethat and actually design it
from scratch, something that youcan wear on the skin.
So ours has a fan that cools itdown, it has battery encasing
so that there's no emfs, and sowe wanted to create something
(16:34):
that is something you can wearand feel intimate with.
You can even take to bed.
You know, that is not just likea radiating lamp.
That was the design principlewe started with, but it's all
really about effectiveness atthe end of the day how effective
your treatment is going to be.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
So let's talk about dosage, because you keep saying
that, what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
so dosage would be a measurement of how much output
you have within a certain timewindow.
It can be measured in variousways.
There's measures calledirradiance, which is expressed
in milliwatts per squarecentimeter.
These are like very um, likephysics calculations but that
have to um, that speak to thedensity of the light and the
(17:20):
power output of the light.
That can be calculated into howdeep it goes and how much dose
you get, like how many joulesyou get per area of coverage.
Okay, that's all like verytechnical.
There is a dosing window that'sestablished in the literature,
which is quite wide.
(17:41):
The overall sort of takeawayfrom all the overlapping
research into differentwavelengths and dosages is there
is an optimal sweet spot window.
If you have too little, you'renot getting any effect, and if
you have too much, your notgetting any effect.
And if you have too much, yourbody over adapts quickly and
(18:01):
you're also not getting aneffect.
So you want to make sure youhave.
You know you have to have apowerful enough setting.
That's step one, and most ofthe cheap lamps out there or
simple belt stuff simply do nothave enough output power.
I see the vast majority ofproducts I see coming out on the
market and making claims.
From a physics perspective,it's not possible.
(18:23):
They can penetrate.
They have.
They're just small diodes.
They have no fans built in, soit's not hot enough, like.
That's often a good sign.
If your panel or your devicehas fans, it means at least the
lights are powerful, right?
So that's one thing you canlook at.
I would not buy anything thatdoesn't have a fan or a cooling
(18:43):
solution, because then it's moreof a cosmetic effect.
In order for the light topenetrate which is what you want
it has to be strong enough,right.
But on the other side, you alsodon't want to overdo it, and
this is a common uh, it's acommon reaction we have.
For people to try our device ora panel.
(19:04):
It often takes a few sessionsto click in.
I don't know how it was for you, when you first first
experienced it, to really feellike how it's working and if
it's working.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Like to get an effect .
I don't know how was it for youto.
When did you start feeling youhad effect from it?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yeah, so my panel actually is battery operated, so
it's not, it's not plugged inand I've used it on my face.
Honestly, when I just do thered light I don't really think
that I notice any difference.
But when I do the NIR, I'vebeen doing it on my back because
I hurt my back and I do feelsensations.
I don't know how really toexplain it, but I feel
(19:42):
sensations and I do feel that myback is improving.
But mine has a timer on it so Ican't do it longer than 12
minutes because it turns off andthen it won't turn back on
because it's cooling down.
So obviously after a couple ofminutes I could do another
session.
But I assume I trust the 12minute mark.
(20:03):
That that's all I'm supposed todo per day and I think actually
my directions were don't do itmore than a couple of times a
week or maybe every other day.
So I probably do it, you know,maybe two, three times a week.
I try not to do too much, butI'll do it on different parts of
my body.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Right, and these are good signs of the device itself
as well.
It's a short.
It's a short treatment windowLike ours is 10 minutes.
You can do 20 if you want,that's fine.
But it's like we don'trecommend an hour or like more
than an hour, because whathappens is the body adapts so
much that you don't get theresponse you're after.
So some of the difficulty for alot of people have assessing
(20:48):
whether it works for them or not.
Is this trial error phase, likedo I really feel it?
And of course the inner skepticis like I'm not sure is it
placebo effect?
yeah, it's the placebo effectand so you know, obviously it
will help even more if youbelieve in it.
You can get effects.
But you also want to, like,remain skeptical.
So anyway, we see how all usersgo through this, and I did the
(21:09):
same thing when I first had theprototype.
I had bought in science level,but I needed a few sessions to
really feel like can I feel it,can I not?
Yeah, this is what's sometimesreferred to as the benefit gap
of red light therapy, and it'sjust a sort of a user challenge
because sometimes you need alittle bit more time to feel
really confident that you cansee the effects.
(21:30):
And it depends on what you'retreating.
What we often see is whenbecause that aha moment comes
and it comes almost foreverybody sometimes after two
days, sometimes after two weeks,but at some point you click in
that you know you can reallyfeel the difference over time.
Then usually people get excitedand then you think more is
better, right, that's just likeokay, now it really worked.
(21:51):
I did, you did 12 minutes onyour back and like now your back
feels better.
What if you just also do yourlegs and your arms and your
shoulder one night and you justlike you know intuitively.
This is where, like it's adefault setting we have in our
our mind you know that more isbetter and once it's working,
more of it would be good.
However, this is not the case.
This is part of the educationaround how to use it
(22:12):
appropriately.
There is a sweet spot and whenyou find that sweet spot, it is
wide, it's not super narrow,it's like you have room to
maneuver.
But the point is overdoing itwill not help you and having too
little or, as in, just not apowerful enough device will be
(22:33):
just placebo device will be justplacebo.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Yeah Is this a trial and error kind of figuring out
how much is too much and howlittle is.
I mean, how little kind ofmakes sense to me.
I think, once you do researchon the actual device you have
and making sure that it's anethical, ethical device, and you
(22:56):
know that makes sense to me,but the too much, especially
since we are that way like whynot just take more?
Why, why, why not just do more?
It's been helping me, that'syeah, Is that like trial and
error thing, or is there?
Don't do it more than.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
That we set certain guidelines in the research.
It's like you you get averagesand statistical ranges that are
pretty consistent, right.
So you can say overall, it iswithin this dosing window of so
and so many joules and so on.
over time.
However, everybody's different,everybody's health state is
different.
So if you are a very activeyounger person who has a lot of
(23:37):
energy already, your toleranceis higher.
If you are, let's say, in likeclosing into retirement and you
battle a lot of diseases in yourlife, you probably don't need
as much, right?
So there's a little bit ofindividual variation.
We are working on, like ourfuture innovation concerns this
actually making it morepersonalized.
(23:57):
For now we are offeringguidelines for users just on
general timing and protocols tofollow.
We have a medical doctor aspart of the co-founding team
who's developed protocols foreverything from arthritis and
fibromyalgia type things andendometriosis type of complex
medical conditions to a tenniselbow and like basic
(24:20):
inflammation responses, so youcan find good guidelines for
placements, how often to use andthe intervals that you should
take breaks and so on to follow.
Okay.
Yeah.
So it is a little bit trial anderror, but within a certain
range, and we try to help peopleas much as possible to find
their own dose and then you cangradually also increase from
(24:42):
there once you see response okay, right, okay so I want to hear
some stories, so they can bepersonal of you, family members,
personal clients or, if youprefer to keep it, research.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
I would love to hear some stories of this.
Helped this?
This panel helped thissituation.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, I mean there's so many like it's hard to know
where to start.
I mean we're closing in now on.
We're approaching 30,000 usersso far of this of our, our
device, and we see, of course,the red light therapy so far of
this of our, our device and wesee, of course, the red light
therapy like it's it's booming.
Lots of people are trying it.
Uh, originally we uh I mean wedesigned the whole device
thinking about people with, um,targeted injuries or muscular
(25:28):
skeletal conditions.
Right, because you can wrap itaround a shoulder or an elbow or
something like this and you canget light from all angles, so
it's ideal for targeted spots.
So we have a lot of you knowsoccer players and tennis
players and these kinds ofthings that it.
It works very well for allmuscular skeletal things.
I um, and we saw that veryearly and designed the device
(25:49):
for that.
However, when we put put it out, people started using it for
different things than we hadthought.
So one of the more arrestingearly stories I uh I found that
we started looking more into isaround gut health, for example.
So we hadn't really thought ofthis, but, um, I like personally
, intuitively, when I, when Igot it, it's a nice warming kind
(26:12):
of effect, but you can keep itclose.
So while while I was meditating, I just put it on my stomach
and just held it in place for 10minutes, et cetera.
That just felt good for thenervous system, and we have more
and more user cases now thatsuggest this is a popular use.
However, then I started findingout that it had an effect on my
gut.
I could, without going intodetail, you can kind of feel the
(26:34):
day after though ooh, somethinghappened here.
When you go to the bathroom andthen a couple of more days of
using it, it's like something ischanging in the whole gut, and
mostly in a positive way.
And then we found more researchalso and user stories to suggest
(26:55):
that it helps really balancethe gut bacteria, so the good
bacteria kind of can fight offthe bad ones, bring more
regularity.
And then of course, the gut islinked to the brain through the
neural system, so people alsoresponding with more cognitive
clarity from using it on theirgut.
So this has become like it'sone kind of use case that we
didn't think of initially.
We gathered more and more userstories that were compelling and
(27:18):
we now did a recent survey.
We found over 30% of FlexPMusers actually use it for their
gut health, which also tells ussomething about general
awareness of this.
Actually, like when we startedfive or 10 years ago, like
talking about your gut was likevery marginal and now it seems
to be something that a lot ofpeople are aware of.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
And I guess for me it's an example of something
that you can do with a deviceyou can wear straight on your
skin, for example, because youare able to penetrate more
deeply so that you can reach.
You have a lot of lightreceptors in your stomach and
where you have the mostmitochondria in your body are in
all the organs.
They are packed withmitochondria.
(28:02):
So our doctor on the team, whois very holistic and trained in
like both TCM or traditionalChinese medicine alongside with
being a Western medical doctorwhich is a really rare crossover
she uses it a lot for like shehas ways of trying to assess uh
organ imbalances and systemimbalances and then can use the
(28:23):
light in this to shine directlyon a liver, for example, or the
kidneys, and because of thepenetration depth you're able to
stimulate the mitochondria inthose organs right.
So she even issued like a detoxyou can use.
You can't use just any redlight device for that, but ours
with packed with near infraredlight you can use to target
(28:43):
inner organs.
So this is one one applicationarea that I personally like a
lot and I have a lot of storiesabout people or use cases where
people report sort of greatimprovements in a way that we
didn't think about.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah yeah that's super interesting.
I didn't think about that untilyou mentioned it to me last
time we chatted and I was like,oh, I guess you could use it on
your gut health.
So, along the same lines, thenlet's talk a little bit about
women's health, because that wassomething else that you
mentioned.
That's very interesting to me.
(29:23):
You know that I do a lot ofcycle alignment work with my
clients, so it's it's not somuch the, it's not so much the
cycle, thinking of this is whatyou should be eating, this is
how you should be exercising,because I feel like that's
pretty easily, uh, approachableand we can gain a lot of
information just via Googlesearch of what should I be
(29:44):
eating.
So I do a little bit of thatwork with my clients.
It's more aligning your energyand and aligning um your
energies to where you are inyour cycle, and and you know,
your energy as a woman isdifferent in the ovulation phase
versus the luteal phase.
However, or in addition, a lotof my work is optimizing your
(30:05):
cycle and harnessing the energythat you are in in each phase as
a female, and so this, I think,would be fascinating for anyone
to listen to.
Again, I never reallyconsidered red light as a tool
in cycle alignment.
So what is your experience withthat?
And if you have experience inthat research, what are the
(30:32):
benefits of?
What can red light therapy helpwith?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah, so this again is another example of where red
light, as in yeah, so this againis another example of where red
light, as in a mask, won't helpyou, but where near infrared
light actually can thenpenetrate and treat something.
And it's another sort ofdiscovery through our users and
user feedback led by our doctor,Dr Zulia Frost.
(30:59):
If you could have a whole showwith her just explaining
everything that you'reinterested in around hormonal
alignment, red lights impact onboth the melatonin cycle for
circadian rhythm, but otherhormonal balances in the body.
She can speak this much betterthan she's trained in it.
I'm just learning as I go yeahbut it's really what I can tell
(31:22):
you is when we, when we firstgot started and we launched the
device and we were like threeguys and a female doctor, uh
like, originally found thecompany and we had a, our
initial launch was sort ofcrowdfunding just to get it
started and get a first audiencethat was very male dominated.
It was very gadget, new gadgets,right, like the guys sort of
(31:43):
picked that up and then overtime, what we've seen is that
now it's more women are buyingit and more women are driving
word of mouth and we startedseeing a little sort of
percolating up use cases ofvarious women's health issues,
like endometriosis was an earlyone, which is a quite severe
(32:04):
condition, even the lighterversions of period pains and
helping with period cramps.
Yeah, dr Zulia started gettingstories from people who had used
it for fertility and to improvefertility, uh, which we're also
gathering and trying to like.
The challenge is to get it upat scale so you can do the large
, large studies, um, but gettingmore and more studies like this
(32:27):
and reports back of use cases.
And again it goes down tohaving a device that you can
wear in your intimate area andthat can just be on like you can
literally penetrate and targetthat whole region.
So, whether it's ovaries orlower gut, or I, have a
(32:50):
girlfriend that's beenstruggling with PCOS like cysts,
for example.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
That's going to be my question.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah, that has found it very, very helpful.
Again, it becomes anecdotal andwe're looking for ways to
actually get this into um, intobroader research.
Uh, but this hasn't beenstudied so much in the in the
background literature.
It's been mostly aboutinflammation and muscular
conditions, performance.
These kinds of very male-driventhings are the ones that are
(33:18):
the most substantiated in theliterature, right?
So what we are discoveringthrough our interaction with the
user base is this whole host ofother sort of other
applications and, yeah, we haveincreasingly also female
ambassadors that tell theirstory right and share it with
others.
We have protocols for it too inour membership programs.
(33:40):
Dr Zulia is always producingmore guidelines for how to use
it for these variety of types ofconditions.
So I think, if your listenersare interested in exploring it
for this, we have some tools toget started.
It is a bit experimental, ofcourse.
You have to find your own way,but there is no doubt from the
feedback we have that thisreally helps a lot of women yeah
(34:05):
, one of the things that youasked me earlier was like how
did it feel when you firststarted doing the red light?
Speaker 1 (34:11):
and and that would be that's my biggest invitation
like even you know, whatever, ifyou're wanting to explore red
light therapy, notice, noticehow you feel, notice any changes
that are coming up.
I personally haven't done itenough.
It was literally you that kindof introduced me to that idea,
because I've been doing it somuch on my back and a little bit
(34:32):
on my face.
Just the red light, yeah, touse it.
uh, and I'm not someone thatstruggles like thank god I don't
have pcos or an endo, I can'tsay that word endometriosis yes
um, but just period pain too,and just like overall womb
(34:53):
health is what I would saywithout noting a lot or having a
lot of experience in this.
Um, if we're talking in termsof that's a huge thing, that can
happen down in our lower guttoo.
I mean our regular gut and thelower gut and, like you know,
your whole, like pelvic bowlregion.
So I would just assume, knowingwhat I know about red light,
(35:15):
that it's going to be, you'regoing to notice some differences
.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah and I could say I mean we almost skipped over
that part from the intro is themost documented effects of red
light therapy, orphotobiomodulation as it's
called in the academicliterature for these wavelengths
is inflammation reduction wasestablished very early, like
back to the 90s, in studies thateven compared was using lasers,
(35:45):
but compared the effect oflasers at the same wavelength
with pharmaceuticalanti-inflammatory and found
consistently that red, like thelaser, was much more effective
at treating inflammation.
Pain relief is another for painrelief.
For any muscular skeletal typeof pain relief, it is
(36:08):
dramatically effective and it'slike the FDA has classified this
kind of device in as like it'sokay to talk about pain relief
with it Because it's noted inthe literature.
That's a common benefit.
That's actually why most peoplebuy it initially is because
they have something painful theywant to treat and then most
(36:30):
users at least of our devicethey discover there are other
things that it can help withalso, but pain and inflammation
100% like what you can expectfrom a good near infrared light
to give you.
So already there, of course itit plays into the kinds of
conditions you were talkingabout which I think everyone
(36:52):
deals with pain and inflammation.
These days there's so much painand suffering out there.
I mean this is part of my ownmotivation for, like, jumping
off a career that was going likereally well doing something
else and finding it's this issomething that people need.
Yeah, we need to have in ourkind of toolbox or in the family
(37:13):
medicine chest or however youwant to frame it.
So that's why our original ideawas like one day this will be,
this is a no-brainer to have athome.
But we haven't quite reachedthere yet where the device is
quite smart enough yeah toexperiment with lamps, as you're
doing now, or panels.
So our first device, flex beam,is an iteration to show that
(37:35):
like to demonstrate that you canhave a wearable and you can
make it easy to use.
Um, and our future innovationis going to try to help people
connect their own data pointsthey have on themselves to help
validate it even more, like theycan actually see the effects in
real time.
We're able to start measuringit now in ways that uh, I think
(37:57):
it's still an early phase thatwe are in and with your panel,
for example, you can feel thatit's working and doing something
, but we're getting increasinglybetter at measuring exactly
what it is doing, and that's apart of an exciting, exciting
part of the journey as well thisisn't something that we talked
about and I feel like we shouldhave even mentioned it in the in
the the beginning, but I wantto hear your response to this.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
What we're talking about and you kind of made me
think about this when you weresaying this study with the
inflammation, pills or medicineversus this why is using red
light therapy more beneficial?
Besides that, you see morebenefits that you just shared.
(38:45):
But why is using NIR morebeneficial than a pill or a
medication?
Or you know why go, why trydoing NIR versus going to a
doctor for your PCOS?
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yeah, and I mean hopefully we get to the point
that also doctors willeventually prescribe red light
therapy for something like PCOS.
For now it's just a tool theyhaven't learned and they're
understandably skeptical.
I think it's coming in, it'sgoing in that direction that
they're seeing that.
It's obvious that you should asa patient or as a user or
client of healthcare services.
(39:25):
I'm not going to compare it toany specific kind of
anti-inflammatory drug Like youcan read about that in
particular studies that havebeen tested.
But, generally speaking, whywould you take a pharmaceutical
that has a range of differentside effects that you know and
you accept willingly, when youcan use light, which is just the
(39:50):
sun's own energy, justconcentrated?
It's the same spectrum, it'sthe same source of energy as is
in nature.
It's just tailored and tweakedspecifically for humans and it
has no side effects, like thereare no known side effects of
this treatment at all in theliterature.
(40:11):
So most people we work withwhen they tried and they come
across this alternative, it'slike it's a no-brainer to use
this instead.
That said, there are, of course, conditions that you know.
I'm not going to say ditch allyour pills because it's a
complex thing and talk to yourdoctor and all of that, but we
(40:35):
see an enormous likeoverprescription of pills and
overreliance on pharmaceuticalsand frankly, I think most people
also know that this isproblematic.
Yeah Right, and there are alsothere is a hunger for other
kinds of solutions.
Unfortunately, there's alsothere's a lot of noise and
there's a lot of you call itsnake oil out there and people
are making kind of medical andhealth claims with various
dubious products.
So it's a bit of a jungle tonavigate what's really working
(40:58):
and what is just hype.
But I think people are smarterand have more tools now to also
do their research.
So I think over time, likedevices like it sounds like you
have a good one, like panel thatyou're using and I know our
devices in this sort of premiumcategory and that these things
that are really working willstand the test of time and they
(41:18):
will get broader acceptance.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Yeah, yeah, one of my favorite things that my mom, my
mom is very I grew up veryholistic.
I mean I always make the jokethat, like I grew up like in a
holistic household beforeholistic was a term and she will
always say, you know, usinglike homeopathy or using an
herbal remedy, or you know, inthis example, using red light
(41:43):
therapy, she would always say,try it and it's either going to
work for you or it's not.
But you're not going to havethe negative side effects and
you're not.
You're not putting thesechemicals or unforeign things.
I mean I love the example, theillustration that you reminded
that it's just sun and in adifferent, you know,
(42:04):
concentration.
It's either going to work foryou or it's not, but you're not
going to lose anything is whatshe always says and I'm like I I
agree with that.
I really do.
It's either going to work orit's, or it's not.
And there's a lot of researchwhich I like that that we
highlighted in this conversation.
Just that's how my brain works.
Hopefully everyone else gotsome benefit from getting the
(42:28):
science behind it.
I have one last question.
But before we go to the lastquestion, where can people find
you?
Where do you hang out?
Where can they learn more fromyou and learn about the panel
that you have the belt?
Speaker 2 (42:43):
Yeah, our device is called FlexBeam, like a flexible
beam of light, and the companyis called Recharge Health, so
our URL is rechargehealth and wehave all the information you
would want there about thedevice and also linking to the
actual scientific studies andgroup them according to
categories for anyone keen tolearn more.
(43:03):
We try to make this asimpartial and objective as
possible, and read about ourambassadors that we have many of
, both in the healthpractitioner space and sports
people who wouldn't endorse thisif they hadn't actually felt
the effect.
So at rechargehealth isprobably the best stopping point
for people who want to learn abit more about this.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Perfect, and I'll link it all below in the show
notes, of course.
Last question If you'restanding on a stage and you had
the microphone for the nextminute 30 seconds and you had
one message to share with theworld, what would you share?
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Oh my God, is this a short TED talk?
Speaker 1 (43:46):
It is a short TED talk 30 second TED talk Go ahead
30 second.
Ted talk.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
I am a big believer in the sun and the health of
sunlight, and I think we live ina culture that we've grown up
custom to being very scared ofthe sun.
There are some negative sideeffects and things, but they can
all be accounted for and youcan handle them and within
reason, like if you're smartabout it.
I think one of the worst thingsin our culture is around light
(44:17):
and lighting.
Like we are surrounded by justvery bad indoor artificial
lighting that has never evenbeen tested on humans.
They've been designed for otherpurposes, to be energy
efficient and for all thesedifferent reasons, and they have
negative side effects on us,generally speaking, to be
overexposed with them, andsunlight is the ultimate healer,
(44:39):
the ultimate source of energy.
So I encourage people typicallyto if it's any sort of health
advice, it's like get outside,like you can use something like
a flex beam is great help forhealing, but don't forget about
it doesn't replace sunlight.
So, especially in the mornings,it's very, very helpful to set
(45:01):
your whole circadian rhythm andeverything.
We wouldn't live if it wasn'tfor sunlight.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Yeah, I go out.
It was four degrees Fahrenheitthis morning and I bundle up and
I got my little hand warmersand I go out every morning and
take a walk.
Honestly, it's invigorating.
I used to hate it, but now I'mlike I'm really awake because I
just got plowed with freezingwind.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Yeah, and you may think it's the wind.
That's part of it, and the coldand just the temperature.
That's probably an aspect of it.
However, when you walk outsideand if you're in a green
neighborhood or something,you're walking through infrared
and near infrared and you'rebasking in all of that and
that's part of the energy yourbody uses to actually be a
(45:46):
healing machine or a or reallyefficient at healing.
So with sunlight it's like, ofcourse, don't stay out so much
you get burnt.
But it's just that energy iswhat we before we got
pharmaceuticals about 100 yearsago they were invented.
If you were sick and you'refeeling down and out or low in
energy, the usual prescriptionis go to a sanatorium.
(46:08):
That's what they call it.
It's a place where you just sitand bathe in sunshine, in some
salt water, maybe in some mud,and back into the sunshine,
because sun is the ultimatehealer.
And that's the crux of what weuh, what we started out with and
why we think it's importantthis technology also finds its
way into every person's home notto be afraid of the sun yeah, I
(46:31):
think that's an importantmessage.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
Thank you, this was such a great conversation.
Thank you so much for coming onand it was so great chatting
with you thank you so much forhaving me, anna.
Hello, welcome back to the podcast Journey to Well.
So today's going to be a reallyfun one, because I haven't
talked too much about red lighttherapy before.
I talk a lot about it on myInstagram.
If you don't already follow meon Instagram, I have a red light
panel and I talk about some ofthe benefits.
But we're going to go reallydeep with Bjorn Eckeberg panel.
(00:24):
And I talk about some of thebenefits, but we're going to go
really deep with Bjorn Eckeberg.
He is the CEO and co-founder ofRecharge Health, also a
philosopher of science, so hehas so many fun kind of aligned
pieces of history and backgroundthat we were chatting about
before we started recording.
So, bjorn, you know that ifyou've listened to my podcast,
(00:45):
you know that I like to kind ofhand over the reins and allow my
guests to introduce themselves.
So I would love a little bitabout who you are and maybe even
we can kind of get into whateven got you interested in red
light therapy.
Coming from philosopher ofscience to red light therapy is
a super interesting switchover,so I would love to hear a little
(01:07):
bit about that.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Thanks, hannah, and it's a pleasure to be on.
I'm very excited to have thisconversation with you and I was
given a serendipitous kind ofopportunity about six years ago.
I was on track to.
I've written a book about thebasics of physics and cosmology
from a philosophical perspectiveand I had that as a kind of
(01:31):
background.
I've been dabbling withfilmmaking and other things.
I had a career path going verystrongly in a certain direction
when I came across.
Well, I am now two of myco-founders that I knew from
before, who had discovered a lotof research from NASA and
PubMed studies that showedremarkable physiological effects
(01:53):
when the human body is exposedto certain wavelengths of light
in specific parts of thespectrum.
This is near infrared and redlight, which we can talk more
about.
But I was blown away because wehaven't heard about this before
and that research is actuallydecades old.
This is not something that wasdiscovered yesterday.
Nasa developed, actually in theearly 2000s, prototypes for
(02:15):
this for astronauts to healfaster in space, and I think so.
This is not new at all, butpeople don't know about it and I
realized when I dug into itthat the reason we don't know
about it and I realized when Idug into it that the reason we
don't know about it is becauseit hasn't been made really
accessible to people.
You kind of have to, as we'llget into, like sign up for a big
panel and like there's, there's.
(02:36):
You have to be really, reallyinto it and know your thing, and
we wanted to create a devicethat is so easy to use that it
can be embedded in everybody'shome, and so I shared with my
co-founders that we met sixyears ago, kind of on a fluke,
and one of them, a medicaldoctor who's worked on this
technology for decades andwanting to get it in the hands
(02:56):
of people so they don't have tocome to a clinic like hers, is
let's make something that can bein everybody's homes.
Let's make this that can be ineverybody's homes.
Uh, let's make this technologywidely available.
And I saw firsthand some of theeffects and stuff and I
interviewed people and uh, yeah,I joined a train early on.
I took a chance on this becauseI thought it's the most
(03:18):
exciting opportunity to get tospread something that can
benefit so many people, and Ididn't know what I signed up for
six years ago.
But here we are and, yeah,we're now one of the purveyors
of the more advanced lighttherapy solution and working on
ways to make this even moreaccessible for people and people
(03:41):
to use, so everyone can haveone.
That's my way of shortintroduction.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
No, I love it.
I love it.
I do think that red lighttherapy is becoming more talked
about, although obviously one ofthe most exciting parts of
having you on this podcast iseven I don't know a lot of the
science behind it.
It's more just oh, red lighttherapy is good for you, it's
(04:08):
good for your skin, right, andwe'll get there, like the
differences.
But at least I would assumethat a lot of my listeners
because this is kind of where Istarted is just knowing there's
benefits to your skin.
It can help with anti-aging,which is very important to women
.
And then I kind of stopped therefor a long time until more
(04:30):
recently, I've gotten into theNIR, the different wavelength
frequencies for penetratingdeeper into your muscles and not
just helping you know surfacelevel skin issues.
So I would love to dive intomaybe this is just diving right
in, but I'm like such a scienceperson.
I really love the data behindit.
(04:51):
So I would love to dive into.
What are the differencesbetween red light and NIR?
What the heck is NIR?
And are there even moredifferent frequencies than those
for when we're talking redlight?
Obviously there's differentfrequencies.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, I mean certainly, let's dive in.
I can say from the outset thatthe research on this is there's
quite a lot.
There's, you know, thousands ofstudies already.
When we started and there wereabout six years ago when we had
our idea for how to make this itwas a very niche kind of thing.
(05:28):
Like we saw, there were sort oflike biohackers that adopted it
and started using it and wordwas spreading that this was
something, but it was still farfrom where it is today.
So in the time spent that, wegot our product first to market
through development and thenstarted selling it and finding
our audience base.
There's also been an explosionin awareness around red light
(05:52):
therapy, the cosmetic aspectsespecially, and there's also
been an explosion of healthtracking devices that people are
wearing like increasinglywearables to have data on
themselves.
This is part of a broader trend, like we saw this early and we
kind of bet on this becomingmore of a mainstream thing that
people are looking to improvetheir health, take health into
(06:15):
their own hands, and they'relooking for alternate ways and
are not really trusting thattheir regular doctor will give
them the best health advice.
Right, are not really trustingthat their regular doctor will
give them the best health advice.
So there's a huge need and hugedemand for thinking outside of
the traditional medical healthcare system.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
And what?
Speaker 2 (06:32):
we felt we were sitting on was a potential
solution that doesn't replaceall of that, but it's like
highly complementary and thatpeople ought to know about.
At the same time as awarenesshas just exploded and now every
person I talk to, especially inthe US, they've all heard of it
but almost nobody really knowswhat it is unless they're using
(06:56):
it.
And it's a potential pitfall,or point of confusion at least,
is that there's so manyoverlapping claims and benefits
and different applications andred light therapy is
increasingly associated withskin and cosmetics.
Yeah, that you touched on.
So part of the confusion isthat the term red light therapy
(07:19):
that we commonly use and thatcovers things like our device
and panels so on, is two typesof wavelengths.
So there's red light, and redlight is very well demonstrated
is great for skin.
It improves collagen production, elastin in the skin, so it can
be very beneficial to beexposed to relatively low dose,
(07:40):
but a consistent dose of redlight.
This comes from sunlight, theredness in sunlight.
It's the same kind ofwavelength as in the visible
spectrum.
So you'll see tons of masks andthings on the market right now
that are like, basically, redlight devices.
However, the most powerful inthe research and in the actual
(08:04):
application of what we call redlight therapy is in NIR, as you
called it, near infrared light.
So this is light that is justoff the visible spectrum.
It's in the infrared range,which is a whole sort of long
bandwidth of the wholeelectromagnetic spectrum.
If you're thinking about energyas a total field coming from
the sun, infrared covers a largepart of the spectrum.
(08:26):
We can't see it, but we canfeel it.
It's associated with heat.
So actually over 50% of theenergy we get from the sun is in
the infrared range.
So it's invisible to us but wecertainly feel it.
On a warm day If you use athermal camera, thermal imaging
camera, you can scan acrossaround you and you see when the
(08:46):
sun is up there is enormousreflection of infrared in nature
and in like leaves and andrivers and so on.
If you look at an urbanlandscape with asphalt, it's
fully absorbed.
There's nothing it's absorbedinto the heat.
So infrared is around us allthe time and it's part of the
natural spectrum of the sun.
(09:07):
So near infrared is a specificpart of that broader infrared
range in which all the researchis showing that between 800 to
880 nanometers, which is a partof the spectrum, something
happens physiologically in thebody that, in a simplified sense
, is the healing response in thebody.
(09:27):
The biological explanation isthe mitochondria, which are the
organelles in your cells thatare responsible for energy
production.
So your mitochondria, whichmake up a large part of your
body.
They're, like, really crucialto your cells and to your
overall health.
They respond when they areexposed to this light by
(09:50):
producing more energy, and whatthe cells do, and what they're
trained to do, is to repair andrecover, etc.
So when you are able to exposethem to the right dosage of that
kind of light, they basicallybecome much more effective at
what they do.
So they produce more energy atthe cellular level and then that
kickstarts your body's naturalhealing process, but kind of
(10:14):
turbocharged right.
So you can get results like 30,40% faster recovery times from a
muscle injury, for example,like not just marginal benefits
but like a significantimprovement.
So this is really what sort ofblew us away the red light we
kind of knew about, and that'sfine and we have that built into
our device.
But having a strong nearinfrared component means that
(10:37):
you're able to treat a wholerange of things muscular
skeletal of things, muscularskeletal types of conditions.
And the trick here about nearinfrared, what makes it
specifically so powerful, isthat it's a long wavelength that
is able to penetrate the skin.
So we can't see it because it'stoo long for our eyes, but it's
(11:00):
just long enough to be able tosneak past the skin.
And if you have a device thatgoes straight on your skin, you
can get two, three inches typepenetration with the right dose.
So, if you think about that fora second, how deep you can go
beneath the surface of the skin,just skin level.
You're able to target, like allyour muscles, even some organs
(11:23):
or your gut or anywhere You'reable to actually stimulate them
with this kind of light.
And so that, of course, has alot of promise for, like anyone
with health concerns, rangingfrom athletes and biohackers but
to more general people who justwant an energy boost or a
health boost.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
So it goes beyond skin deep.
Does this do anything to yourbones?
Speaker 2 (11:48):
uh, it also can.
Yeah, if you can reach thebones with the penetration,
there are studies showingeffects on bone healing yeah,
very clear research showing.
Also, stem cell production isanother aspect, um, that is also
stimulated from this.
But it's all, then, abouthaving the right dosage at the
right place so you're able topenetrate deeply.
(12:10):
That's the power of nearinfrared, and that's why we set
our sights on developing adevice that had a very powerful
near infrared setting, becausethat way you're able to treat
things in the body that go wellbeyond the skin able to treat
things on the body that go wellbeyond the skin.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah, so one of the things that I very briefly
researched and I'm sure that youcan more eloquently speak on it
is with the dosage as well, asI'm curious because I know that
we were just talking about yourred light panel goes directly on
your skin, but some researchthat I came across was kind of
talking about the distance thatyou should have your near
(12:50):
infrared light panel, becauseit's almost like I mean, if
you're not watching the video,it's almost like a prism, is
that what the shape is?
It kind of comes out in a v andso if you have it a little bit
further away, it's able to covera little bit more surface area,
although what you're saying, Iassume it's just not penetrating
as deep.
But why did you createsomething or why is this?
(13:11):
Why is it better to havesomething that goes on your skin
?
Is it just because it canpenetrate a little bit deeper?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
it can be much more effective and go deeper.
So for those who are watchingthe video, I'll just show, show
you.
This is FlexBeam.
This is a belt-like shape Likeit's really a belt more than
it's a panel, with light pods.
That beeping sound is meturning it off.
I just want to show you whatthe lights look like.
They look purple For a secondor two, but it's got three light
(13:43):
pods connected to a controller.
This gives you basically thesame it's the same power as in a
large panel, but packed into abelt like shape that you can
wear.
Okay.
The reason you want to considerthis kind of design, or like why
you want it on the skin, isbecause when it's on the skin
you don't lose any of the energyand it all goes into the body.
(14:06):
If you're standing five, 10inches away from a panel, you
are losing 80% of its power,like the light diffuses.
So it's just it's actually verybasic physics, right that the
further you are away, the lesseffect you can get from the
(14:27):
actual device.
Now the reason with your panelwhy you have to stand at a
certain distance to it, istwofold.
One is that your panel islikely to get very hot.
If you were to stick your skinvery close to it, it would have
almost a burning kind of feeling.
It would be too hot for you tobe close to it.
(14:47):
Panels also have very highelectromagnetic frequency
radiation, so-called EMFs,because they're plugged into the
wall and they're not encased oranything.
They're just open lights.
So when you do an EMF readingaround something like a panel,
it really is like it's quite alot.
It's almost like level of acell phone, yeah, right.
(15:08):
So you want to have a distanceto be more safe, but you need to
keep the same distance in orderto be consistent in your
treatment.
So if you like, for like oneday you're just leaning further
back from the panel, you can getlike half the dose of what you
got yesterday.
Yeah.
Right.
All of this is like it's whenyou really think about it.
(15:30):
You get your head into it andyou think about how the physics
of it works.
It is quite obvious, but it'snot so easy to understand when
you start out yeah right andpanels are produced uh, we know,
like all the different panels,and some of them are great
quality in terms of lights andso on, so I'm not going to talk
them down and say that they arebullshit.
(15:51):
They're just.
It's a, it's a way ofdelivering light that is factory
and production driven.
They are basically.
They come out of the grow upindustry.
They are actually light forplants, and when they discovered
that you could, that certainwavelengths were something that
the human body responded to,they just basically replaced the
(16:13):
light, used the same design andpumped out panels.
So it's designed for plants andit's not really designed for
humans, and we wanted to reversethat and actually design it
from scratch, something that youcan wear on the skin.
So ours has a fan that cools itdown, it has battery encasing
so that there's no emfs, and sowe wanted to create something
(16:34):
that is something you can wearand feel intimate with.
You can even take to bed.
You know, that is not just likea radiating lamp.
That was the design principlewe started with, but it's all
really about effectiveness atthe end of the day how effective
your treatment is going to be.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
So let's talk about dosage, because you keep saying
that, what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
so dosage would be a measurement of how much output
you have within a certain timewindow.
It can be measured in variousways.
There's measures calledirradiance, which is expressed
in milliwatts per squarecentimeter.
These are like very um, likephysics calculations but that
have to um, that speak to thedensity of the light and the
(17:20):
power output of the light.
That can be calculated into howdeep it goes and how much dose
you get, like how many joulesyou get per area of coverage.
Okay, that's all like verytechnical.
There is a dosing window that'sestablished in the literature,
which is quite wide.
(17:41):
The overall sort of takeawayfrom all the overlapping
research into differentwavelengths and dosages is there
is an optimal sweet spot window.
If you have too little, you'renot getting any effect, and if
you have too much, your notgetting any effect.
And if you have too much, yourbody over adapts quickly and
(18:01):
you're also not getting aneffect.
So you want to make sure youhave.
You know you have to have apowerful enough setting.
That's step one, and most ofthe cheap lamps out there or
simple belt stuff simply do nothave enough output power.
I see the vast majority ofproducts I see coming out on the
market and making claims.
From a physics perspective,it's not possible.
(18:23):
They can penetrate.
They have.
They're just small diodes.
They have no fans built in, soit's not hot enough, like.
That's often a good sign.
If your panel or your devicehas fans, it means at least the
lights are powerful, right?
So that's one thing you canlook at.
I would not buy anything thatdoesn't have a fan or a cooling
(18:43):
solution, because then it's moreof a cosmetic effect.
In order for the light topenetrate which is what you want
it has to be strong enough,right.
But on the other side, you alsodon't want to overdo it, and
this is a common uh, it's acommon reaction we have.
For people to try our device ora panel.
(19:04):
It often takes a few sessionsto click in.
I don't know how it was for you, when you first first
experienced it, to really feellike how it's working and if
it's working.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Like to get an effect .
I don't know how was it for youto.
When did you start feeling youhad effect from it?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yeah, so my panel actually is battery operated, so
it's not, it's not plugged inand I've used it on my face.
Honestly, when I just do thered light I don't really think
that I notice any difference.
But when I do the NIR, I'vebeen doing it on my back because
I hurt my back and I do feelsensations.
I don't know how really toexplain it, but I feel
(19:42):
sensations and I do feel that myback is improving.
But mine has a timer on it so Ican't do it longer than 12
minutes because it turns off andthen it won't turn back on
because it's cooling down.
So obviously after a couple ofminutes I could do another
session.
But I assume I trust the 12minute mark.
(20:03):
That that's all I'm supposed todo per day and I think actually
my directions were don't do itmore than a couple of times a
week or maybe every other day.
So I probably do it, you know,maybe two, three times a week.
I try not to do too much, butI'll do it on different parts of
my body.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Right, and these are good signs of the device itself
as well.
It's a short.
It's a short treatment windowLike ours is 10 minutes.
You can do 20 if you want,that's fine.
But it's like we don'trecommend an hour or like more
than an hour, because whathappens is the body adapts so
much that you don't get theresponse you're after.
So some of the difficulty for alot of people have assessing
(20:48):
whether it works for them or not.
Is this trial error phase, likedo I really feel it?
And of course the inner skepticis like I'm not sure is it
placebo effect?
yeah, it's the placebo effectand so you know, obviously it
will help even more if youbelieve in it.
You can get effects.
But you also want to, like,remain skeptical.
So anyway, we see how all usersgo through this, and I did the
(21:09):
same thing when I first had theprototype.
I had bought in science level,but I needed a few sessions to
really feel like can I feel it,can I not?
Yeah, this is what's sometimesreferred to as the benefit gap
of red light therapy, and it'sjust a sort of a user challenge
because sometimes you need alittle bit more time to feel
really confident that you cansee the effects.
(21:30):
And it depends on what you'retreating.
What we often see is whenbecause that aha moment comes
and it comes almost foreverybody sometimes after two
days, sometimes after two weeks,but at some point you click in
that you know you can reallyfeel the difference over time.
Then usually people get excitedand then you think more is
better, right, that's just likeokay, now it really worked.
(21:51):
I did, you did 12 minutes onyour back and like now your back
feels better.
What if you just also do yourlegs and your arms and your
shoulder one night and you justlike you know intuitively.
This is where, like it's adefault setting we have in our
our mind you know that more isbetter and once it's working,
more of it would be good.
However, this is not the case.
This is part of the educationaround how to use it
(22:12):
appropriately.
There is a sweet spot and whenyou find that sweet spot, it is
wide, it's not super narrow,it's like you have room to
maneuver.
But the point is overdoing itwill not help you and having too
little or, as in, just not apowerful enough device will be
(22:33):
just placebo device will be justplacebo.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Yeah Is this a trial and error kind of figuring out
how much is too much and howlittle is.
I mean, how little kind ofmakes sense to me.
I think, once you do researchon the actual device you have
and making sure that it's anethical, ethical device, and you
(22:56):
know that makes sense to me,but the too much, especially
since we are that way like whynot just take more?
Why, why, why not just do more?
It's been helping me, that'syeah, Is that like trial and
error thing, or is there?
Don't do it more than.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
That we set certain guidelines in the research.
It's like you you get averagesand statistical ranges that are
pretty consistent, right.
So you can say overall, it iswithin this dosing window of so
and so many joules and so on.
over time.
However, everybody's different,everybody's health state is
different.
So if you are a very activeyounger person who has a lot of
(23:37):
energy already, your toleranceis higher.
If you are, let's say, in likeclosing into retirement and you
battle a lot of diseases in yourlife, you probably don't need
as much, right?
So there's a little bit ofindividual variation.
We are working on, like ourfuture innovation concerns this
actually making it morepersonalized.
(23:57):
For now we are offeringguidelines for users just on
general timing and protocols tofollow.
We have a medical doctor aspart of the co-founding team
who's developed protocols foreverything from arthritis and
fibromyalgia type things andendometriosis type of complex
medical conditions to a tenniselbow and like basic
(24:20):
inflammation responses, so youcan find good guidelines for
placements, how often to use andthe intervals that you should
take breaks and so on to follow.
Okay.
Yeah.
So it is a little bit trial anderror, but within a certain
range, and we try to help peopleas much as possible to find
their own dose and then you cangradually also increase from
(24:42):
there once you see response okay, right, okay so I want to hear
some stories, so they can bepersonal of you, family members,
personal clients or, if youprefer to keep it, research.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
I would love to hear some stories of this.
Helped this?
This panel helped thissituation.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, I mean there's so many like it's hard to know
where to start.
I mean we're closing in now on.
We're approaching 30,000 usersso far of this of our, our
device, and we see, of course,the red light therapy so far of
this of our, our device and wesee, of course, the red light
therapy like it's it's booming.
Lots of people are trying it.
Uh, originally we uh I mean wedesigned the whole device
thinking about people with, um,targeted injuries or muscular
(25:28):
skeletal conditions.
Right, because you can wrap itaround a shoulder or an elbow or
something like this and you canget light from all angles, so
it's ideal for targeted spots.
So we have a lot of you knowsoccer players and tennis
players and these kinds ofthings that it.
It works very well for allmuscular skeletal things.
I um, and we saw that veryearly and designed the device
(25:49):
for that.
However, when we put put it out, people started using it for
different things than we hadthought.
So one of the more arrestingearly stories I uh I found that
we started looking more into isaround gut health, for example.
So we hadn't really thought ofthis, but, um, I like personally
, intuitively, when I, when Igot it, it's a nice warming kind
(26:12):
of effect, but you can keep itclose.
So while while I was meditating, I just put it on my stomach
and just held it in place for 10minutes, et cetera.
That just felt good for thenervous system, and we have more
and more user cases now thatsuggest this is a popular use.
However, then I started findingout that it had an effect on my
gut.
I could, without going intodetail, you can kind of feel the
(26:34):
day after though ooh, somethinghappened here.
When you go to the bathroom andthen a couple of more days of
using it, it's like something ischanging in the whole gut, and
mostly in a positive way.
And then we found more researchalso and user stories to suggest
(26:55):
that it helps really balancethe gut bacteria, so the good
bacteria kind of can fight offthe bad ones, bring more
regularity.
And then of course, the gut islinked to the brain through the
neural system, so people alsoresponding with more cognitive
clarity from using it on theirgut.
So this has become like it'sone kind of use case that we
didn't think of initially.
We gathered more and more userstories that were compelling and
(27:18):
we now did a recent survey.
We found over 30% of FlexPMusers actually use it for their
gut health, which also tells ussomething about general
awareness of this.
Actually, like when we startedfive or 10 years ago, like
talking about your gut was likevery marginal and now it seems
to be something that a lot ofpeople are aware of.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
And I guess for me it's an example of something
that you can do with a deviceyou can wear straight on your
skin, for example, because youare able to penetrate more
deeply so that you can reach.
You have a lot of lightreceptors in your stomach and
where you have the mostmitochondria in your body are in
all the organs.
They are packed withmitochondria.
(28:02):
So our doctor on the team, whois very holistic and trained in
like both TCM or traditionalChinese medicine alongside with
being a Western medical doctorwhich is a really rare crossover
she uses it a lot for like shehas ways of trying to assess uh
organ imbalances and systemimbalances and then can use the
(28:23):
light in this to shine directlyon a liver, for example, or the
kidneys, and because of thepenetration depth you're able to
stimulate the mitochondria inthose organs right.
So she even issued like a detoxyou can use.
You can't use just any redlight device for that, but ours
with packed with near infraredlight you can use to target
(28:43):
inner organs.
So this is one one applicationarea that I personally like a
lot and I have a lot of storiesabout people or use cases where
people report sort of greatimprovements in a way that we
didn't think about.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah yeah that's super interesting.
I didn't think about that untilyou mentioned it to me last
time we chatted and I was like,oh, I guess you could use it on
your gut health.
So, along the same lines, thenlet's talk a little bit about
women's health, because that wassomething else that you
mentioned.
That's very interesting to me.
(29:23):
You know that I do a lot ofcycle alignment work with my
clients, so it's it's not somuch the, it's not so much the
cycle, thinking of this is whatyou should be eating, this is
how you should be exercising,because I feel like that's
pretty easily, uh, approachableand we can gain a lot of
information just via Googlesearch of what should I be
(29:44):
eating.
So I do a little bit of thatwork with my clients.
It's more aligning your energyand and aligning um your
energies to where you are inyour cycle, and and you know,
your energy as a woman isdifferent in the ovulation phase
versus the luteal phase.
However, or in addition, a lotof my work is optimizing your
(30:05):
cycle and harnessing the energythat you are in in each phase as
a female, and so this, I think,would be fascinating for anyone
to listen to.
Again, I never reallyconsidered red light as a tool
in cycle alignment.
So what is your experience withthat?
And if you have experience inthat research, what are the
(30:32):
benefits of?
What can red light therapy helpwith?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah, so this again is another example of where red
light, as in yeah, so this againis another example of where red
light, as in a mask, won't helpyou, but where near infrared
light actually can thenpenetrate and treat something.
And it's another sort ofdiscovery through our users and
user feedback led by our doctor,Dr Zulia Frost.
(30:59):
If you could have a whole showwith her just explaining
everything that you'reinterested in around hormonal
alignment, red lights impact onboth the melatonin cycle for
circadian rhythm, but otherhormonal balances in the body.
She can speak this much betterthan she's trained in it.
I'm just learning as I go yeahbut it's really what I can tell
(31:22):
you is when we, when we firstgot started and we launched the
device and we were like threeguys and a female doctor, uh
like, originally found thecompany and we had a, our
initial launch was sort ofcrowdfunding just to get it
started and get a first audiencethat was very male dominated.
It was very gadget, new gadgets,right, like the guys sort of
(31:43):
picked that up and then overtime, what we've seen is that
now it's more women are buyingit and more women are driving
word of mouth and we startedseeing a little sort of
percolating up use cases ofvarious women's health issues,
like endometriosis was an earlyone, which is a quite severe
(32:04):
condition, even the lighterversions of period pains and
helping with period cramps.
Yeah, dr Zulia started gettingstories from people who had used
it for fertility and to improvefertility, uh, which we're also
gathering and trying to like.
The challenge is to get it upat scale so you can do the large
, large studies, um, but gettingmore and more studies like this
(32:27):
and reports back of use cases.
And again it goes down tohaving a device that you can
wear in your intimate area andthat can just be on like you can
literally penetrate and targetthat whole region.
So, whether it's ovaries orlower gut, or I, have a
(32:50):
girlfriend that's beenstruggling with PCOS like cysts,
for example.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
That's going to be my question.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah, that has found it very, very helpful.
Again, it becomes anecdotal andwe're looking for ways to
actually get this into um, intobroader research.
Uh, but this hasn't beenstudied so much in the in the
background literature.
It's been mostly aboutinflammation and muscular
conditions, performance.
These kinds of very male-driventhings are the ones that are
(33:18):
the most substantiated in theliterature, right?
So what we are discoveringthrough our interaction with the
user base is this whole host ofother sort of other
applications and, yeah, we haveincreasingly also female
ambassadors that tell theirstory right and share it with
others.
We have protocols for it too inour membership programs.
(33:40):
Dr Zulia is always producingmore guidelines for how to use
it for these variety of types ofconditions.
So I think, if your listenersare interested in exploring it
for this, we have some tools toget started.
It is a bit experimental, ofcourse.
You have to find your own way,but there is no doubt from the
feedback we have that thisreally helps a lot of women yeah
(34:05):
, one of the things that youasked me earlier was like how
did it feel when you firststarted doing the red light?
Speaker 1 (34:11):
and and that would be that's my biggest invitation
like even you know, whatever, ifyou're wanting to explore red
light therapy, notice, noticehow you feel, notice any changes
that are coming up.
I personally haven't done itenough.
It was literally you that kindof introduced me to that idea,
because I've been doing it somuch on my back and a little bit
(34:32):
on my face.
Just the red light, yeah, touse it.
uh, and I'm not someone thatstruggles like thank god I don't
have pcos or an endo, I can'tsay that word endometriosis yes
um, but just period pain too,and just like overall womb
(34:53):
health is what I would saywithout noting a lot or having a
lot of experience in this.
Um, if we're talking in termsof that's a huge thing, that can
happen down in our lower guttoo.
I mean our regular gut and thelower gut and, like you know,
your whole, like pelvic bowlregion.
So I would just assume, knowingwhat I know about red light,
(35:15):
that it's going to be, you'regoing to notice some differences
.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah and I could say I mean we almost skipped over
that part from the intro is themost documented effects of red
light therapy, orphotobiomodulation as it's
called in the academicliterature for these wavelengths
is inflammation reduction wasestablished very early, like
back to the 90s, in studies thateven compared was using lasers,
(35:45):
but compared the effect oflasers at the same wavelength
with pharmaceuticalanti-inflammatory and found
consistently that red, like thelaser, was much more effective
at treating inflammation.
Pain relief is another for painrelief.
For any muscular skeletal typeof pain relief, it is
(36:08):
dramatically effective and it'slike the FDA has classified this
kind of device in as like it'sokay to talk about pain relief
with it Because it's noted inthe literature.
That's a common benefit.
That's actually why most peoplebuy it initially is because
they have something painful theywant to treat and then most
(36:30):
users at least of our devicethey discover there are other
things that it can help withalso, but pain and inflammation
100% like what you can expectfrom a good near infrared light
to give you.
So already there, of course itit plays into the kinds of
conditions you were talkingabout which I think everyone
(36:52):
deals with pain and inflammation.
These days there's so much painand suffering out there.
I mean this is part of my ownmotivation for, like, jumping
off a career that was going likereally well doing something
else and finding it's this issomething that people need.
Yeah, we need to have in ourkind of toolbox or in the family
(37:13):
medicine chest or however youwant to frame it.
So that's why our original ideawas like one day this will be,
this is a no-brainer to have athome.
But we haven't quite reachedthere yet where the device is
quite smart enough yeah toexperiment with lamps, as you're
doing now, or panels.
So our first device, flex beam,is an iteration to show that
(37:35):
like to demonstrate that you canhave a wearable and you can
make it easy to use.
Um, and our future innovationis going to try to help people
connect their own data pointsthey have on themselves to help
validate it even more, like theycan actually see the effects in
real time.
We're able to start measuringit now in ways that uh, I think
(37:57):
it's still an early phase thatwe are in and with your panel,
for example, you can feel thatit's working and doing something
, but we're getting increasinglybetter at measuring exactly
what it is doing, and that's apart of an exciting, exciting
part of the journey as well thisisn't something that we talked
about and I feel like we shouldhave even mentioned it in the in
the the beginning, but I wantto hear your response to this.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
What we're talking about and you kind of made me
think about this when you weresaying this study with the
inflammation, pills or medicineversus this why is using red
light therapy more beneficial?
Besides that, you see morebenefits that you just shared.
(38:45):
But why is using NIR morebeneficial than a pill or a
medication?
Or you know why go, why trydoing NIR versus going to a
doctor for your PCOS?
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yeah, and I mean hopefully we get to the point
that also doctors willeventually prescribe red light
therapy for something like PCOS.
For now it's just a tool theyhaven't learned and they're
understandably skeptical.
I think it's coming in, it'sgoing in that direction that
they're seeing that.
It's obvious that you should asa patient or as a user or
client of healthcare services.
(39:25):
I'm not going to compare it toany specific kind of
anti-inflammatory drug Like youcan read about that in
particular studies that havebeen tested.
But, generally speaking, whywould you take a pharmaceutical
that has a range of differentside effects that you know and
you accept willingly, when youcan use light, which is just the
(39:50):
sun's own energy, justconcentrated?
It's the same spectrum, it'sthe same source of energy as is
in nature.
It's just tailored and tweakedspecifically for humans and it
has no side effects, like thereare no known side effects of
this treatment at all in theliterature.
(40:11):
So most people we work withwhen they tried and they come
across this alternative, it'slike it's a no-brainer to use
this instead.
That said, there are, of course, conditions that you know.
I'm not going to say ditch allyour pills because it's a
complex thing and talk to yourdoctor and all of that, but we
(40:35):
see an enormous likeoverprescription of pills and
overreliance on pharmaceuticalsand frankly, I think most people
also know that this isproblematic.
Yeah Right, and there are alsothere is a hunger for other
kinds of solutions.
Unfortunately, there's alsothere's a lot of noise and
there's a lot of you call itsnake oil out there and people
are making kind of medical andhealth claims with various
dubious products.
So it's a bit of a jungle tonavigate what's really working
(40:58):
and what is just hype.
But I think people are smarterand have more tools now to also
do their research.
So I think over time, likedevices like it sounds like you
have a good one, like panel thatyou're using and I know our
devices in this sort of premiumcategory and that these things
that are really working willstand the test of time and they
(41:18):
will get broader acceptance.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Yeah, yeah, one of my favorite things that my mom, my
mom is very I grew up veryholistic.
I mean I always make the jokethat, like I grew up like in a
holistic household beforeholistic was a term and she will
always say, you know, usinglike homeopathy or using an
herbal remedy, or you know, inthis example, using red light
(41:43):
therapy, she would always say,try it and it's either going to
work for you or it's not.
But you're not going to havethe negative side effects and
you're not.
You're not putting thesechemicals or unforeign things.
I mean I love the example, theillustration that you reminded
that it's just sun and in adifferent, you know,
(42:04):
concentration.
It's either going to work foryou or it's not, but you're not
going to lose anything is whatshe always says and I'm like I I
agree with that.
I really do.
It's either going to work orit's, or it's not.
And there's a lot of researchwhich I like that that we
highlighted in this conversation.
Just that's how my brain works.
Hopefully everyone else gotsome benefit from getting the
(42:28):
science behind it.
I have one last question.
But before we go to the lastquestion, where can people find
you?
Where do you hang out?
Where can they learn more fromyou and learn about the panel
that you have the belt?
Speaker 2 (42:43):
Yeah, our device is called FlexBeam, like a flexible
beam of light, and the companyis called Recharge Health, so
our URL is rechargehealth and wehave all the information you
would want there about thedevice and also linking to the
actual scientific studies andgroup them according to
categories for anyone keen tolearn more.
(43:03):
We try to make this asimpartial and objective as
possible, and read about ourambassadors that we have many of
, both in the healthpractitioner space and sports
people who wouldn't endorse thisif they hadn't actually felt
the effect.
So at rechargehealth isprobably the best stopping point
for people who want to learn abit more about this.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Perfect, and I'll link it all below in the show
notes, of course.
Last question If you'restanding on a stage and you had
the microphone for the nextminute 30 seconds and you had
one message to share with theworld, what would you share?
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Oh my God, is this a short TED talk?
Speaker 1 (43:46):
It is a short TED talk 30 second TED talk Go ahead
30 second.
Ted talk.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
I am a big believer in the sun and the health of
sunlight, and I think we live ina culture that we've grown up
custom to being very scared ofthe sun.
There are some negative sideeffects and things, but they can
all be accounted for and youcan handle them and within
reason, like if you're smartabout it.
I think one of the worst thingsin our culture is around light
(44:17):
and lighting.
Like we are surrounded by justvery bad indoor artificial
lighting that has never evenbeen tested on humans.
They've been designed for otherpurposes, to be energy
efficient and for all thesedifferent reasons, and they have
negative side effects on us,generally speaking, to be
overexposed with them, andsunlight is the ultimate healer,
(44:39):
the ultimate source of energy.
So I encourage people typicallyto if it's any sort of health
advice, it's like get outside,like you can use something like
a flex beam is great help forhealing, but don't forget about
it doesn't replace sunlight.
So, especially in the mornings,it's very, very helpful to set
(45:01):
your whole circadian rhythm andeverything.
We wouldn't live if it wasn'tfor sunlight.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Yeah, I go out.
It was four degrees Fahrenheitthis morning and I bundle up and
I got my little hand warmersand I go out every morning and
take a walk.
Honestly, it's invigorating.
I used to hate it, but now I'mlike I'm really awake because I
just got plowed with freezingwind.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Yeah, and you may think it's the wind.
That's part of it, and the coldand just the temperature.
That's probably an aspect of it.
However, when you walk outsideand if you're in a green
neighborhood or something,you're walking through infrared
and near infrared and you'rebasking in all of that and
that's part of the energy yourbody uses to actually be a
(45:46):
healing machine or a or reallyefficient at healing.
So with sunlight it's like, ofcourse, don't stay out so much
you get burnt.
But it's just that energy iswhat we before we got
pharmaceuticals about 100 yearsago they were invented.
If you were sick and you'refeeling down and out or low in
energy, the usual prescriptionis go to a sanatorium.
(46:08):
That's what they call it.
It's a place where you just sitand bathe in sunshine, in some
salt water, maybe in some mud,and back into the sunshine,
because sun is the ultimatehealer.
And that's the crux of what weuh, what we started out with and
why we think it's importantthis technology also finds its
way into every person's home notto be afraid of the sun yeah, I
(46:31):
think that's an importantmessage.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
Thank you, this was such a great conversation.
Thank you so much for coming onand it was so great chatting
with you thank you so much forhaving me, anna.
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