September 17, 2025 • 69 mins
The profound intersection of plant medicine and meditation offers a pathway to healing that goes far beyond symptom relief. David Crow, a pioneering clinical herbalist and acupuncturist, shares his extraordinary 40-year journey studying with Tibetan doctors in the Himalayas, nine different Ayurvedic practitioners, and various healing traditions that recognize the inseparability of medicine and spirituality.
At the heart of this conversation lies a revolutionary insight: the way we take herbs matters as much as which herbs we take. When we approach plant medicine with mindful awareness, paying close attention to the sensations they create in our bodies, we dramatically amplify their healing effects. "Where the mind flows, the qi flows," David explains, describing how focused attention directs healing energy precisely where we need it. This practice creates a beautiful synergy - herbs support meditation, and meditation potentiates herbs.
David challenges our modern supplement culture with its "more is better" mentality. Instead, he advocates for "more mindfulness, not more herbs," revealing how microdosing with complete presence produces more powerful effects than handfuls of supplements taken mindlessly. This approach makes profound healing accessible to everyone - you don't need exotic substances or expensive formulations, just sincere attention to whatever herb you're already taking.
The conversation also explores the traditional context of plant medicines, especially powerful entheogens like ayahuasca. David discusses the importance of proper containers - the land, culture, ceremony, and tradition that safely hold these experiences - and how their absence in modern settings can lead to psychological harm rather than healing.
Whether you're new to herbal medicine or a seasoned practitioner, this episode invites you to slow down and experience the union of plant consciousness with human awareness. In this mindful exchange, we reconnect with the original purpose of healing traditions: not just relief from symptoms, but support for our journey toward greater awareness, integration, and ultimately, spiritual transformation. Discover how a simple cup of tea, approached with reverence, can become a doorway to profound healing and connection.
Connect with David at https://www.crowconsultations.com/
Let's connect on social media! You can find me @ _journeytowell
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be well, my friend
xx Hannah
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello, welcome back to the podcast Journey to Well,
I am Hannah, your host, andtoday I am joined by with David
Crow.
He is a clinical herbalist andacupuncturist and a expert in
Chinese medicine.
I've had some people I've hadan acupuncture and oriental
(00:25):
medicine practitioner on mypodcast before, but completely
different topics, completelydifferent ways that we're going
to share about all of thisbeautiful medicine.
So, david, thank you so muchfor coming on the podcast.
He is also before I forget,he's a 2-4 emotional generator,
so you know that I talk abouthuman design as well.
(00:47):
And my favorite question,probably of the entire podcast,
is the first question, which iswho is David and how would you
like to introduce yourself tothis audience and how has your
journey been thus far in yourlife?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Well, thank you been thus far in your life.
Well, thank you for theinvitation, the opportunity to
talk about myself.
(01:23):
It's the best to acupunctureChinese medicine first.
But when I started my traininga long time ago, as one of the
first Westerners to go to anacupuncture college in the
(01:45):
United States in the first yearthat there was such a thing, I
also came in contact with theTibetan Buddhist community that
was also beginning to come tothe Western culture.
So I actually encountered bothChinese medicine and Tibetan
(02:09):
Buddhism around the same time,in the early 1980s in San
Francisco.
And this is basically what hasbeen happening ever since these
two lineages of classical Asianmedicine and classical Asian
spiritual lineages.
But in my own studies it hasexpanded quite a lot.
(02:33):
And so I completed myacupuncture training, I became
licensed as an acupuncturist, Istarted learning and using a lot
about Chinese herbs, but Iquickly discovered that there
was far more going on in termsof the spiritual roots of these
medical lineages than was beingtaught in contemporary Western
(02:58):
Chinese medicine.
And so because I had contactwith the Tibetan Buddhist
community, specifically througha very renowned, very
accomplished spiritual teacher,kalu Rinpoche, who was the real
thing, the real yogi, whopracticed for years in snow
(03:22):
caves and just wearing, wearinga cotton cloth.
He was like the real, the realthing, and so I was very
impressed when I met him and Ibecame very interested in the
tibetan spiritual teachings andlineages and tibetan medicine.
So I ended up studying both ofthese subjects from a variety of
(03:46):
different sources teachers andlineages and I actually went to
the Himalayas and studied with aTibetan doctor over a period of
several years.
I lived in Kathmandu for a yearthe first time and studied with
Dr Nalwang Chopal, who was aTibetan doctor, for a year the
first time, and studied with DrNgawang Chopal, who was a
(04:07):
Tibetan doctor, and I waslearning simultaneously.
Chinese medicine.
Ayurvedic medicine and Tibetanmedicine over a period of about.
You know well, it still goes on.
So it's been over 40 years.
I've been studying it and atthe same time I was also doing a
lot of retreats with theseTibetan lamas and teachers.
(04:29):
And then, through Ayurveda, Ibecame very interested in the
Vedas and Tantra, and all ofthese lineages of medicine and
spirituality were all happeningthere in Kathmandu in my studies
, and I was bringing this allback to my clinical practice in
California, a step at a time,and then I became very aware
(04:54):
that the medicines, the plantmedicines of the Himalayas were
endangered, increasinglyendangered from a number of
different directions.
They were being over harvested,there was loss of biodiversity,
huge demand, all of thesethings.
And so I then took my clinicalpractice more and more into the
(05:18):
sustainable agricultural sideand developed one of the first
kind of green businesses in thefield of natural products and
started an essential oil companycalled Floricopia.
That went for 20 years and thattook me all over the world
being involved in sustainabilityprojects, ecological and
(05:41):
organic cultivation of medicinalplants and aromatics and
distillation of essential oils,and so these are three of the
big rivers of study that I havebeen involved in and I have been
really now going full circleback to the integration of the
(06:08):
spiritual teachings and themedical teachings, and they were
always there together.
In my studies of Tibetanmedicine, I attended many large
ceremonies where medicine wasbeing made and consecrated with
mantra and prayer, and this isvery universal everywhere.
(06:30):
It's also part of Ayurvedicmedicine, and so I began to
learn, at the same time that Iwas learning about the herbs and
learning about, you know, thesystem of Chinese medicine
learning about the herbs andlearning about the system of
Chinese medicine, learning aboutthe system, the concepts and
the principles of Tibetan andAyurvedic medicine.
I was also learning theassociated lineages of spiritual
(06:55):
practice.
And so in Chinese medicine,even though it wasn't being
taught, Chinese medicine isinseparable from Taoism and
Chinese medicine is inseparablefrom Qigong and Tai Chi and
Taoist alchemy, Taoistspirituality and all these
things.
So that's where I wasintroduced to this
(07:17):
inseparability.
And then in Tibetan medicineit's inseparable.
Ayurvedic medicine it'sinseparable.
Buddhist medicine it'sinseparable, and at the same
time, what we are receiving herein the West is very separated.
And so people who study Chinesemedicine, you know they have to
(07:38):
fulfill a curriculum, they haveto go and they have to get
accredited and then pass theirstate board exams and then they
can have a license.
And that's a big job andthere's not a whole lot of time
for doing spiritual practices.
But that was the basis of theclassical systems is that all of
(07:59):
these things are used together,use together, and so my focus,
especially now for the lastseveral years, has really been
studying, I guess, what youcould just call mind-body
medicine.
How do these things worktogether, why do they work
together and why is it important?
And it turns out that humanconsciousness plays a huge role
(08:23):
in what happens physiologicallyinside the body when we take
herbs.
And when we take herbs it has ahuge impact on human
consciousness.
And so it makes perfect sensethat in these traditions that
the medicines that were beingmade were being prayed over and
consecrated and so forth, andthat actually changes how they
(08:46):
work.
And then if we do thatourselves and we take them with
mindfulness and reverence andthings like that, then it
changes how they work also.
So, to sum it all up, all ofthis is basically led to a place
now where I understand andreally appreciate that herbal
medicine supports our spiritualpractice and spiritual practices
(09:10):
support herbal medicine andthis is a very important thing
to understand how this works andwhy it's important.
Because it's very practical inthe sense that it potentizes the
herbs when we use them withmindfulness and it changes
(09:30):
actually.
Anybody can feel it, anybodycan experience that meditation
makes the effects of the herbsstronger.
And likewise it's explicitlystated in these traditions that
the goal of medicine is not forcuring disease.
That's considered to be likethe lowest goal.
The lowest priority is treatingdisease, but the highest
(09:55):
priority of medicine is to helpachieve moksha, transcendence,
illumination, enlightenment,whatever we want to call it.
In other words, there's anultimate spiritual goal and the
herbs were always put in thatcontext.
Medicinal plants, naturalmedicine, was always put in the
context that it's not just aboutbeing free of symptoms.
(10:20):
It's also about having a longlife, and not just about having
a long life, but having a longlife with a purpose which is to
deepen our spiritual practiceand that has a goal which is a
final attainment illumination.
So these are the two primarysubjects that I've spent my life
(10:42):
studying and have seen that itis a very practical and a very
important thing and what it doesis it actually translates into
real benefits because,historically, herbal medicine
was always used to supportmeditation, and what that means
(11:03):
is that we have these resourcesnow that we need for this global
pandemic of dementia.
You see the herbs that supportour meditation practice are the
herbs that strengthen our brainand support our nervous system
and calm the anxiety andantidepressant and all that.
(11:24):
So that's where spiritualpractice and mental health are
closely related and that's whereherbs come in at that level.
So that's a brief overview of along journey.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
It has been a long journey, I imagine.
I have so many questions and Ido want to share one thing
before my question.
What you just said aboutmeditation helping to strengthen
the brain and helping also withanxiety and mental illnesses, I
(12:01):
shared quite honestly aboutthis.
A couple years ago I had a verydysregulated nervous system.
Quite a few situations in mylife led to that dysregulation
and so I started experiencing alot of anxiety and that was new
for me.
I had never had panic attacksor felt anxious, and one of the
(12:23):
only things that helped duringan actual panic attack was
actually meditating, and at thetime I found Dr who was it?
Yeah, it was a Dr Joe Dispenzameditation.
And then there's also AndrewHuberman talks about NSDR, which
is non-sleep deep rest, and youcan literally look it up on
(12:46):
YouTube.
It's a 10 or 15 minute video ofreally just body awareness and
bringing your body awareness tospecific pieces, which we don't
have to go into all the sciencebehind it, but that's really
helpful when you're having apanic attack to be able to come
into the present moment.
But they'll find five thingsthat you can see and the four
(13:06):
things that you can hear, andand other body awareness or
present moment meditations neverreally worked for me, but those
were two that really worked forme, and I'm so interested to
hear about how herbs can supportmedicine meditation, because I
have been an on and off lifelongmeditator.
(13:26):
I started meditating when I wasa kid, actually, because my mom
was a meditator and she had memeditate with her when I was in
like elementary school.
But I've never used herbs withmy meditation, so I'm very
excited to learn about that.
But first, my first question iswhy learn Tibetan, ayurvedic
(13:48):
and Chinese medicine all at thesame time?
And then part B of thatquestion is what are the
differences between those threethat you felt were very
important to learn and that ledyou to kind of continue down
this road of exploring all threeof these modalities?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Good question, Many questions actually so many.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
I know I can't.
I'm so excited to talk to you.
I have so many.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Well, first of all, tibetan, Chinese and Ayurvedic
medicine are fundamentally verysimilar.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
And they're also very similar to Unani medicine, the
Persian medicine and to Greekmedicine.
They're similar in the sensethat they have underlying
principles that are the same,and we find things like Vata,
pitta Katha in Ayurveda.
Well, that's there in Tibetanmedicine, it's there in a
(14:51):
different form in Chinesemedicine we hear about the five
elements of Chinese medicine andit's there in Ayurvedic
medicine in slightly differentform.
And the other thing that theyall share is plants and similar
kind of diagnostic methods.
But the reason that I wasfundamentally interested in
(15:15):
Chinese medicine first wasbecause that's what was starting
to appear in the West first.
Chinese medicine came first,ayurveda came later, and so
therefore I started through thedoorway of Chinese medicine and
became licensed as anacupuncturist and went into a
(15:37):
clinical practice and continuedmy studies.
But through entering thatdoorway I basically was going
into the doorway of Asianmedicine, which was also
eventually going to take me intoold European medicine, because
as I continued my studies I havealso studied Paleolithic
(16:00):
herbology and Persian medicineand Greek medicine and old
European medicine and also spentsome time in Central and South
America and learned about theshamanic uses of the plants, and
so basically it's all onesystem and there's no such thing
as an Ayurvedic herb or aChinese herb.
What there is is there's theplants, and people have been
(16:22):
using plants forever.
What there is is there's theplants, and people have been
using plants forever, and thenthere are the different cultures
that explain the plants indifferent kinds of ways.
So what happened was myinterest in Chinese medicine
(16:44):
took me into contact with Asianmedicine in general, but then my
interest specifically inTibetan Buddhism, from meeting
Kali Rinpoche, first took meinto Tibetan medicine, and that
is where I saw the similaritiesbetween Tibetan Ayurvedic and
Chinese medicine.
Because when I got to theHimalayas, I also started
studying with nine differentAyurvedic doctors.
(17:04):
I had nine Ayurvedic teachersthat I worked with and one
Tibetan doctor that I workedwith, and I worked with all of
these people for many years,coming and going and spending
periods of time both in Nepal,the Himalayas and in India.
And so I was fortunate becauseI was one of the few Westerners
(17:25):
who actually got the hands-ontraining in a classical kind of
internship where you go and you,you know, go and harvest the
herbs and chop them up andthings like that.
So that is basically how I camein contact with all three,
because they're all there, allthree of those things are in
that part of the world and youcan find in Kathmandu, you can
(17:48):
find Tibetan doctors, and youcan find the Unani.
The Arabic medicine is there,and you can find Ayurveda.
They're all there and they'reall very similar and they all
use a lot of similar plants andthey all use a lot of similar
concepts.
So that's how that happened.
But in terms of your broaderquestion about how do we use
(18:10):
herbs for meditation, all right,well, that's a big topic.
I'm so interested.
Okay, well, there's several waysthat we can think about this.
One is we could look at theplants that have always been
used to support meditation andwe find that there is a special
(18:32):
class of plants and that thesehave been known for a long time,
and these are things that wenow know about.
Also, many of these are braintonics and many of these are
adaptogens and many of these arelongevity herbs.
They all work in different ways, but then we also have to
(18:55):
consider, well, how manyobstacles are there to
meditation that we need toovercome?
So the broader answer is thatany herb that helps you meditate
is good for meditation.
You don't have to think of someexotic herb.
If you need to drink a cup ofchamomile tea to help you move
(19:15):
from being in a state of, youknow, activity and busyness and
restless mind and so forth, tomove into a calmer state, then
chamomile becomes an herb tosupport your meditation.
See, but there is a categoryspecifically of herbs that are
considered to be longevitytonics for the brain, and that's
(19:37):
a little easier to understandin terms of well, what are some
of the things that the yogisused?
Well, we find in Chinesemedicine, the most famous is the
ginseng, of course, that it'ssaid to give a person a long
life and to support the brain.
But in Chinese medicine we alsofind the reishi mushroom, okay,
(19:59):
and that's literally called themushroom of immortality.
So there was a whole lineage ofyogis and alchemists and
meditators and practitioners whowere looking for plants that
would give them long life longlife and that became the basis
(20:28):
of an entire branch of medicinein Chinese medicine and
Ayurvedic medicine and Tibetanmedicine also.
All these plants became part ofa system that were renowned for
protecting the body or, inAyurveda, for rejuvenation
rasayana and these are theplants that we now know
primarily as the adaptogens.
(20:49):
And so in Chinese medicine, thereishi mushroom was said to be
the mushroom of immortality, andnow what we know is that it is
neuroprotective and it reducesinflammation throughout the body
and it has all theseadaptogenic functions and helps
balance the immune system andall of these things.
So is there a specific herb thathelps you with meditation?
(21:14):
Then that's the one, okay, sowhat I uh share when we look at
the question from thatstandpoint, what herbs help
meditation?
Well, maybe you neednourishment to support your
brain, okay, maybe it's not, uh,so much an herb that's going to
(21:34):
help you meditate.
Maybe you need to have a littlebit of soup or bone broth or
something before you meditate.
A lot of a lot of people needthat.
But then there are all theseother herbs that are like
neuroprotective, like.
Two herbs are called brahmi inayurveda, and brahmi means is a
word that is derived from theterm brahma, which means pure
(21:56):
consciousness, the creator, pureconsciousness of the creator of
creation, and and Barammi meanstwo species.
Okay, one is Gotukola and theother is Bakopa, and both of
these herbs are famous for theirneuroprotective effects.
They're both being used a lotnow for the pandemic of dementia
(22:22):
and for ADD, all of these kindof things.
So we find that there's a wholeclass of herbs that are very
supportive to the brain, butthat's only one explanation, you
see.
That's that you have the herbsand they have these different
functions, and some of them arereal classical longevity herbs
(22:42):
and some of them are just likerelaxants and some are
nourishing herbs.
Okay, so that's starting fromthe standpoint of the herbs.
But then there's an entirelydifferent way to answer the
question, and that is it's notjust the herb, it's the way you
take it.
Okay, so you can take any herbpretty much mindlessly yeah and
(23:06):
that's how a lot of people doand they're sent home from their
visit with a practitioner youknow a grocery bag full of
products and they take a handfulof your supplements on an empty
stomach in the morning and theydon't pay any attention to any
of it.
They don't experiment with justone thing and see what it does,
(23:34):
and furthermore, they're in abig rush, and that's part of the
problem is that, you know, thegut-brain axis is always in
overdrive and that's why they'vegot all their symptoms, and so
herbal medicine becomes part ofthe problem.
And therefore, if we ask thequestion, well, what are the
herbs that are good formeditation?
(23:56):
We can say, all right, there'sthese different classes of herbs
that can help us in differentways.
But, even more fundamental thanthat, we can say how do we take
herbs so that they become themeditation?
And once we start looking atherbal medicine that way, then
(24:18):
we're really weaving backtogether these two lineages
again.
And so, therefore, you slowdown and you have your cup of
tea, and it can be virtuallyanything, but of course you want
to pick something that is goingto be supportive of your
meditation physiologically.
But let's just say Tulsi tea.
(24:40):
All right, so Tulsi is a verysimple herb and it's an
adaptogen and it's relaxing andrejuvenating to the nervous
system, and so it's always beenused for meditation.
But you can drink your Tulsitea in a big hurry and it's not
going to help you relax.
Or you can sit down and you canmeditate with your Tulsi tea
(25:04):
and you can sip on that Tulsitea very mindfully.
And this is the most importantpart of this whole story, and
that is when the human mindcomes in contact with the plant.
There's an exchange ofinformation, all right.
(25:27):
And so let's say, you've gotthat Tulsi tea and you sip it
very slowly and you pay closeattention.
Well, what is attention?
That's fundamental to how thisall works.
What is attention?
Well, attention is the focusedmind.
(25:48):
Well, what is the mind?
Well, this is important tounderstand also.
The mind is a field ofawareness that is directed by
attention, and the more theattention is focused, then the
more we receive information andthe more energy is transmitted.
(26:17):
Okay, so let's think about this, the transmission part.
A really good example of thisis anybody who does pranic
healing, reiki, anybody who doesany kind of energy work with
their hands, and your mind isvery focused and very clear.
(26:41):
You start to feel the qi aroundyour hands, and another person
can start to feel the qi aroundtheir hands also.
What is that qi?
The qi is your own mind that isbeing focused by the qi of your
attention.
All right, so then what happensis that the mind becomes very
(27:09):
focused and the focus begins todirect the flow of the qi, and
in Taoism they say yi dao, qidao.
Where the mind flows, the qiflows.
So, in other words, if you'repaying close attention, you're
doing some qigong healing, youcan feel the flow of that energy
and that is directing energy toanother person.
But when you're sitting therewith your tea and you're paying
(27:29):
attention to it, what you'redoing is you're directing the qi
into the tea.
Okay, the tea is becominginfused with qi and you are
being more present with the tea,and because you are more
present when you sip that,you're going to taste a whole
rainbow of colors that you'renot going to taste if you're
(27:50):
just in a rush.
Okay.
So, in other words, mindfulnesschanges our entire experience,
and mindfulness opens thischannel of energy to flow both
to what we are mindful of andfrom what it is into us.
(28:12):
Now here's how this translatesinto the most basic and
practical part of all of this,which is that when we use herbs,
with this high level ofmeditation-focused mindfulness,
the physiological effects areamplified tremendously.
And this is what we want.
(28:33):
We want to take herbs and wewant them to work.
But how do we know?
How do we do this?
How do we know that we areactually potentizing the herbs?
Well, the answer is simple whenwe are paying close attention
to what the herbs are doing inthe body, then our awareness of
(28:57):
those physiological processes isenhanced.
So, in other words, if we justdrink a you know, cup of tulsi
tea.
While we're running aroundbeing busy, we're not going to
pay any attention to those bodysensations on the other hand.
If you sit and you make that cupof tulsi tea your entire
(29:17):
meditation yeah and you smellits fragrance going into the
sinuses and feel how it changesthe sinus cavity and feel how
that information is passing intothe brain, feel how the tea is
moving through the throat, feelhow it moves into the stomach,
feel how it moves into the heart, feel how it moves to the
(29:40):
extremities.
If you're paying closeattention to that heart, if you
move to the extremities, ifyou're paying close attention to
that, then what you're actuallydoing is you are amplifying the
body sensations that the herbis producing.
And if you are amplifying thebody sensations of what the herb
(30:01):
is doing physiologically, thebody sensations of what the herb
is doing physiologically, thatmeans that you are potentizing
it, and so, therefore, this issomething that can be easily
experienced by anybody.
It's just the basis ofbiofeedback therapy, for example
and I have seen this because Ihave been teaching this now to
(30:23):
thousands of people andeverybody can do it and
everybody reports the same thing, which is that if you are in a
really focused state and you aredirecting the prana of your
attention to the herb the pranaof your attention to the herb,
(30:48):
and you are receiving the pranafrom the herb by being
completely present with it.
then the body sensations of thephysiological therapeutic
benefits are going to be greatlymagnified.
The end result of that is thatyou can drink a few sips of
Tulsi tea and you will feel thatit's a powerful drug, and a
(31:10):
practical benefit is that youcan learn to produce very strong
therapeutic effects at a verylow cost at a very low cost.
Okay.
Another benefit and this is oneof the reasons that I was very,
very impressed with the resultsof this in larger groups.
When I teach classes wherewe're using herbs, there may be
(31:36):
hundreds of people in thoseclasses and I don't know
anything about their medicalcondition and they may be on all
kinds of medications and wehave to be very careful about
using certain kinds of herbsthat are really, you know,
potent but we're microdosing,Okay, that's.
(31:58):
The other thing is that we'rejust microdosing and people can
feel the benefits.
But because we're microdosingand people can feel the benefits
, but because we're micro-dosing, it's very, very safe for
people, Because what people areactually learning how to do is
to use their mind, to use theprana of the mind and the
(32:22):
attention in conjunction withthe healing prana, the vitality,
the life force of the plants.
So, in other words, we're usingour mind to potentize the
healing benefits of the plants,but physiologically we're taking
very low doses.
So that's a quick overview ofthat process.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah, which I think is an important topic to touch
on mind altering herbs ormushrooms or you know, like,
even like any kind of journeylike Rappe or Bufo or like
(33:14):
what's the.
All I can think of isashwagandha.
That's not what I'm thinking of.
Ayahuasca, ayahuasca, any ofthose big, any of that.
Ayahuasca, any of those big,any of that.
What I would consider that'slike a big thing to explore and
there's nothing wrong with it.
I'm not saying that, I justpersonally haven't felt called
to it.
But what I touched on when youand I had a conversation was the
(33:39):
importance of kind of exploringthese different aspects,
because I personally think thatit's so cool to explore
chamomile or Tulsi orashwagandha or these plants or
these I don't know how you wouldtechnically explain them, but
they're not mind mind altering,like, like ayahuasca is, or
(34:01):
maybe, if you really microdose,ayahuasca.
I don't know, I don't knowenough about herbs, but that's
something that I would love foryou to touch on and I would love
for your opinion on and how youhave seen.
I'm sure that you haveexperienced both, so I would
love to hear a little bit aboutyour experience.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Again, lots of questions.
Okay, well, I do have someexperience with entheogenic
plants, but my experience was along time ago in the traditional
cultures.
Okay, and that's the difference.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
You see, and things are very different now than when
I met Maria Sabina in themountains of Oaxaca.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
And now, you know, all you have to do is go to a
yoga studio on a Saturday nightand somebody's pouring ayahuasca
and there's all these thingsthat are available, or you can
just go on TripAdvisor.
You can actually, you canactually, you know, find
(35:13):
ayahuasca ceremonies onTripAdvisor or ecotourism, okay,
yeah.
Now the main problem with thisis because it's using a very
powerful plant that can shiftour perspective of ourself very
dramatically and it can make usvery sensitive and it can
(35:33):
dissolve the boundaries of ourpersonality and our ego and
sense of self.
And that has to be donecarefully, because if you're not
ready for it, it's too powerful, or you're surrounded by a
hundred people who are allhaving, you know, a whole bunch
of emotional catharsis.
It can be very painful, and sowhat's missing is the
(35:55):
traditional container, and therewere actually four containers
and these are all important toconsider, and the main problem
now is that these containers aregone.
All right.
So the first container is acontainer of the environment
itself, and people historicallylived in an area and they didn't
(36:16):
travel far and they had theseplants, and these plants were in
the geographical region andpeople had knowledge about these
plants and went back a long,long time.
And so in the amazon it was theayahuasca and many other things
, in the mountains of oaxaca itwas the psilocybe mexicana.
In the southwest, northern, innorthern mexico it was a peyote.
(36:39):
And so the first container isthe land itself.
Now, if you take the plant outof that land, then it changes
the plant and it changes thenature of the experience.
But the second container insidethe land was the culture, you
see, because the culture had amythology and the culture had
(37:05):
its mythological creation,stories and its deities and its
songs, clothing and art andpreparation for the ceremony and
(37:29):
after the ceremony.
Much of that is gone, you see,and so the second container is
culture inside the container ofthe land.
And then the container insidethe culture is a ceremony itself
, and so that would be theteepee ceremony of the Native
American church, you see, or itwould be the all-night vigil
(37:54):
staying up with the mushrooms ofthe Mazatec Indians, or it
would be the all-night ceremonyof the ayahuasca drinking, you
see.
So then there's a ceremony andthe ceremony is a container
itself, and the container isthat people are there for a
purpose, they're there to pray,there's an elder, there's a
(38:17):
sequence of events, there'smusic, there's training, there's
all of these things that happen, and that's a container within
the container of the culture,within the container of the land
.
And then the container insidethe ritual is the plant, and the
plant is the container of theactive ingredients.
You see, now, when you have allthose containers, then what
(38:40):
happens?
The person is in the land andthey're in the culture, and
they're in the culture andthey're in the mythology of the
culture, and then they're in theritual and they're in the inner
guidance of the tradition andthe elders, and then they ingest
the plant and all of thosethings are holding the
experience in a way that makessense, and therefore the person
(39:04):
knows why they're there, theyknow what they're doing and they
become familiar with it.
And many times people weren'tjust dropped into these
ceremonies.
You had to be initiated a stepat a time and learn these things
carefully, and you weren'tinvited to the next level until
you were ready.
And now people can just dropinto anything and get blasted
(39:26):
away by high doses of this stuffand they're not familiar with
the inner landscape and that'swhere the problems come.
They're not familiar that, oh,I've got so much pain in my body
.
It might be because the personnext to you is is going through
chemotherapy.
You know people don't have theknowledge to identify the inner
(39:46):
landscape and the phenomenathat's happening.
And they also, in many casesand I have worked with many
people where this happens theyhear that these ceremonies are
going to be so good for them,resolve their past trauma and
all you know that's the mainthing why people go.
(40:07):
You know it's going to help withyour past trauma, but all it
does is it just triggers it yeahand, furthermore, it's
triggered in a way that makesyou very vulnerable and you
start having all thisoverwhelming uh information
coming in, and anytime thepersonality structure is fragile
(40:27):
, there's a risk of damage.
And so there have been manypeople, and it's not just
ayahuasca, it's not justceremonies.
This can happen in a 10-dayVipassana meditation retreat, or
it can happen just in a reallyintensive kind of you know,
motivational weekend.
For some people, it pushes thembeyond the ability of their
(40:48):
personality to integrate what'sgoing on and they end up, you
know, having a psychoticbreakdown.
That happens.
That happens because people gointo these situations that are
simply too powerful for theirpsyche to handle.
They're not ready for it, andthat's what's missing is that in
(41:09):
these containers, you have thissequence of events where people
are trained a step at a time,initiated a step at a time.
You know you're brought up inthese containers so that by the
time you get to the realpowerful stuff, you're ready for
it, you know what you're doingand you know what you're getting
yourself into.
(41:29):
So, my opinion about entheogensis that they're incredibly
valuable.
They're very, very valuable.
They help a lot of people, butthey're totally out of context
now and because of that then youknow, certain people get hurt
from it and a lot of people theyhave a great experience, but
(41:49):
then it's kind of like well,life goes on, everything's
pretty much the same.
So these plants have a place.
They have a very importantplace if they're used correctly
by people, when they're readyfor them and they use them in
the right way and they get theright information from it.
But that doesn't necessarilymean that it has any ultimate,
(42:14):
higher purpose.
And here's a real, fundamentaldifference between shamanism and
the meditation lineages.
When we are talking about anentheogenic experience to have
this breakthrough and thiscleansing and this healing,
we're talking about greatbenefits and we're talking about
(42:38):
relieving suffering.
Okay, we're talking about aperson becoming more
psychologically integrated, aperson healing the past, being
able to live a better life, allof these kind of things.
But that was never the goal inthe traditional lineages okay,
in the classical spirituallineages of Asia specifically,
(43:01):
but also in the higher teachingsof the shamanic lineages also,
there was an ultimate goal.
And because there was anultimate goal.
There was very little emphasisthat was placed on resolving
your past trauma.
What they were really lookingfor was resolving all trauma
permanently.
So they talked about it indifferent language.
(43:22):
They said moksha, emancipationfrom bondage to the senses.
They called it enlightenment,okay, they called it
illumination.
Okay, they called it crossingto the far shore.
They called it relief, escapefrom samsara.
(43:43):
They called it relief, escapefrom samsara.
So in these lineages there wasmuch less emphasis on your
personal trauma and much moreemphasis on an ultimate state of
liberation from all suffering.
Now that's very different.
Now the entheogens can be apart of that process, but what
(44:08):
we see is that people can do thehomework with their entheogens,
they can have a breakthroughwith the entheogens, but that
doesn't necessarily translateinto a deeper understanding of
the nature of the mind and thereality that is really
transcendent.
Okay, I've gone a little off ona tangent here.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
I love it.
I love it.
The thing that I was going tosay earlier was how you're
connecting it.
You know, even if we have thesebig mindset retreats or 10 day
meditations, we can still dodamage.
I am certified in somaticbreathwork and we talk a lot
about that in the training andsome one way that I have chosen
(44:56):
really to lead my breathworkjourneys because I realized this
lead my breathwork journeysbecause I realized this is not
to push people.
I think breathwork is also oneof those things where it is
extremely transformational.
It's this beautiful, powerful,potent tool to dive deep into
(45:17):
your soma, your body and and youcan have these really beautiful
experiences and insights andhealing.
But when we push ourselves orare pushed by the practitioner
to go deeper or express in a waythat our body is just not ready
(45:38):
or our psyche is just not readyto express, it can be very
damaging.
So a lot of times in breathworkjourneys, sometimes people fall
asleep or sometimes people will, will come to the end and
they'll say I didn't, I didn'treally feel that much Like I
just don't feel like Iexperienced everything that
other people are sharing and Iwant to really normalize that,
(46:02):
and one of the ways that I sayis is if, especially if your
body falls asleep, it's aprotective mechanism, so you
fell asleep for a reason.
And if you don't feel that youare able to experience what
everyone experiences what I'mputting in quotes because
everyone's experience is sodifferent but if you, if your
expectation was not your reality, it's likely that your body
(46:26):
wasn't ready, and that's good toknow, and your body is
protecting you and you still hada beautiful journey, I mean,
you still got something out ofit.
But if your expectation wasdifferent than than what
actually ended up happening,it's it's, our bodies are very
wise and very protective, and sothat's also.
I mean you touched oneverything, pretty much, that I
(46:48):
have issues with, with thoseayahuasca journeys and all of
those types of journeys, becauseit it can be very damaging and
it also can be verytransformational.
Again, I'm not I'm not negatingit, but bringing awareness to
the other side of this couldalso happen.
(47:09):
And that's again why I love thisconversation of start
experimenting with herbs, otherherbs start experimenting with.
I mean, you've already listedso many, but my last, my second
to last question would be how dowe know how?
No, how do we explore anddecipher what herbs might be
(47:32):
most supportive for us.
So how would we, if we feelthat we're not very in touch and
in tune?
How would we know if it'sbetter to choose an herb that
calms the nervous system versusone that stimulates the brain,
versus one that helps withlongevity?
How would we go aboutnavigating that in our own
(47:54):
journey?
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Yeah, good.
Well, I don't think that thatis a starting point.
Okay.
Because the starting point isreally paying attention to any
herb.
Okay.
And so, therefore, the realdiscovery is not so much
(48:20):
learning about herbal medicine,is not so much learning about
herbal medicine.
It's about learning about therelationship between our mind
and body, and learning about therelationship between the mind
and the body and the plant, andtherefore what we're really
learning about.
If we have a simple tea andwe're doing mindfulness
(48:44):
meditation, paying very closeattention to the tea and tasting
it and feeling it, then thatprocess is actually miraculous
and it is bringing together,first of all, our consciousness,
our body, the plant and theplant consciousness, and so four
(49:12):
things are coming together.
If you're drinking a cup ofTulsi tea with mindful
meditation, your mind is present, you are feeling your body, you
are ingesting the body of theplant, and the body of the plant
is transmitting theconsciousness of the plant.
And so four things are comingtogether two forms of
(49:35):
consciousness and two forms ofbodies.
All right now.
That's how herbal medicineworks and that's how our food
works, and this is an ongoingprocess.
Every time we eat something,okay, consciousness is being
assimilated into ourconsciousness.
All right.
The body of something else isbeing assimilated into our body,
(49:56):
all right now.
If we go very deeply into that,then that opens up all of these
possibilities for self-healing.
And that's where visualizationcomes in, because not only do we
start to feel these sensations,but we can actually focus on a
(50:17):
particular part of the body andthe herb will go there.
And so if you are drinking Tulsitea and you want it to nourish
your brain, you drink the Tulsitea and you smell the fragrance
going to the sinuses and youwill feel that the fragrance is
actually activating your brain.
And if you are paying closeattention to your brain, you're
(50:38):
activating it.
You're increasing thecirculation.
Cerebral circulation isincreasing just by paying
attention, and so, therefore,you are sending the Tulsi to
your brain.
Okay, so we can learn how tosend the herbs to different
parts of the body.
Now, that's more important thanknowing about the different
(51:01):
kinds of herbs first.
Okay, what's most important isto study the process, no matter
what you're eating or whatyou're drinking, okay or what
you're taking, and so mostpeople can start with that,
because they already havesomething.
Probably.
People already drink Tulsi tea,they drink ginger, they take
some turmeric, they probablytake some adaptogens.
(51:21):
What's most important is stoptaking so many things, okay and
take one thing really carefullyand pay really deep attention to
it.
All right, because people willhave this idea in our
(51:42):
contemporary herbal culture thatmore is better and so if it's
going to be more, it should bemore mindfulness, not more herbs
.
All right, and people arereally in this kind of consumer
mindset when it comes to, oh,the latest product and greatest
adaptogen and this and that.
(52:02):
Okay, and that's not what'simportant.
Okay.
What's important is tounderstand and cultivate a
deeper relationship with theplant and its consciousness, and
from that comes great reverence.
Actually, when you can start tofeel the presence of that
consciousness that's in the herbworking inside your
consciousness and your body,then you have entered into a
(52:25):
very deep level of herbalmedicine.
And then if you have that levelof sensitivity, you don't have
to listen to all thisinformation.
And that's a lot of what I doin my medical consultations is,
people are greatly confusedbecause there's so much
information out there about, ohyou should do this and you
(52:45):
should do that, and they've gotthese gigantic herbal pharmacies
and they don't know what'sdoing what.
And okay, how do we answer thatquestion that you just asked?
How do we pick the herbs?
Well, all right now, we cananswer that herbs.
(53:06):
Well, all right now, we cananswer that.
The easiest way to do this isjust to identify your primary
need.
So what is the primary needthat you have when you sit down
to meditate?
Well, there are two things thatare going to happen.
One is first you're going to berestless and then you're going
to be tired.
Those are the two primaryobstacles to meditation.
(53:31):
Those are age-old obstacles tomeditation.
Now, here we have to ask abigger question, you know?
So what?
So what if we're agitated?
So what if we're tired?
Well, the so what is that?
We're trying to meditate in aculture and a time that's not
conducive to meditation.
Yeah.
And so now we say, well, do wewant to use herbs to kind of
overcome that?
Well, sure, you can take somecannabis, you can hit your brain
(53:52):
over the head and you can, youknow, get into a deeply relaxed
state pretty fast.
But you know you'll wake up thenext day with a bit of brain fog
from it.
Okay, all right.
So there's a couple of thingsyou can do.
One of the most basic ways toincorporate herbs into
meditation practice is to takethings that help you relax
(54:16):
faster, and it doesn't have tobe powerful.
You don't have to take cannabis.
And it doesn't have to bepowerful, you don't have to take
cannabis.
It can just be chamomile.
It can be a little bit of lemonbalm.
You see, it can be just alittle.
You know anything that you like.
A little catnip tea is veryrelaxing.
Okay, you can take a few dropsof a little bit of you know
(54:37):
valerian tincture.
If you're really overstimulated,you can take a little bit of
California poppy.
Just take a little bit of arelaxant herb and notice how
relaxing it is, and then thenext thing you're going to
notice is you're asleep.
And so then the question comeswell, what's the matter with
(55:00):
that?
Nothing, you didn't enter intomeditation, but what you did was
you turned off the internalnervous system stress for a
while.
Now really deep meditation isnot going to come until your
nervous system has been restedand rejuvenated for a while, for
(55:25):
a while.
And that's why in the classicalmonastic settings, where the
longer retreats happen, what yousee is the same over and over
again.
First morning, all the monksand nuns come in and everybody
sits down and everybody fallsasleep on their cushion, and
that goes on throughout thefirst day.
Second day it repeats itself.
Third day it starts to get alittle bit better and then
(55:45):
finally, by the fourth day,people in the morning meditation
sessions are actually stayingawake.
It takes about four days totransition out of ordinary life
into a routine where you canactually meditate Okay, actually
meditate, okay.
But here's where individualchoice also comes, because you
may find that what is mostnourishing for you and most
(56:11):
supportive of your meditationpractice is not a nerve-align
calmative, like you know,chamomile, lemon balm tea,
something like that.
You may find that what is mostsupportive of your meditation
practice is a cup of soup orbone broth with some reishi
mushroom tincture in it, you see.
(56:32):
And so therefore, we have twoprimary categories we work with.
One is the things that help thenervous system calm down
quickly, and the other is thethings that nourish the nervous
system, because these are twosides of the same thing.
You're overstimulated and youcan't meditate.
(56:53):
It means that you're also tiredand it means that once
stimulation wears off, you'regoing to fall asleep and in the
sleep process you're going tostart to rejuvenate, and so
after you've had your little napon your meditation cushion,
then you can drink a cup of soupwith some reishi mushroom in it
, and it's going to be verynourishing.
(57:14):
You're going to feel the warmthin the stomach and you feel like
, wow, okay, now I'm reallystarting to recover.
So that's kind of like a fastrecovery from a stressful day.
Drink something to calm down,go ahead and take a little rest
on your cushion and then, whenyou wake up, then take something
that's nourishing.
Take a little adaptogen, have alittle American ginseng, you
(57:37):
know something like that, andwhen you start taking those
things, then it's building theenergy back up, and when the
energy starts to come back up,that's when you can sit and
really meditate for a longerperiod of time.
So those are the two maincategories that we can use, but
people should meditate onanything that they're using,
(57:59):
anything at all.
They should meditate on how itfeels.
Speaker 1 (58:04):
I love.
You said if it's going to bemore because we live in a more
culture, let it be moremindfulness.
That is one of my favoritequotes from this whole
conversation and what abeautiful, beautiful invitation.
Thank you so much for all ofyour wisdom.
Thank you for bringing this newperspective and this added
(58:28):
benefit of meditation, and awhole new perspective of
meditation.
I actually I love, I lovechatting meditation.
I taught a class years ago and Inamed it the art of meditation
because, I really wanted to diveinto conversation around what
is meditation, because we haveall of these stereotypes and all
(58:49):
of these ideas of meditationhas to be that four hour long
sitting in like a Tibetanmonastery with with your
meditation cushion and theincense burning.
And it doesn't have to be thatand I love.
Earlier you said, let thetaking in of the tea, whatever
(59:09):
it is, let that be yourmeditation and noticing how it's
going down your esophagus andhow it's affecting your sinuses
and how it's touching all ofyour senses, and that itself can
be a meditation.
So I love all of your work.
Thank you so much for coming on.
I would love to have you sharewhere people can stay connected
(59:34):
with you.
Where do you spend the mosttime?
How can people stay connectedwith you?
How can people continue tolearn from you?
Speaker 2 (59:43):
Well, thank you for all the nice words.
Speaker 1 (59:45):
They're honest.
Speaker 2 (59:46):
And thank you for the invitation to be here and thank
you for the invitation to letpeople know.
I have a website it is easy toremember, it's
crowconsultationscom, c-r-o-wconsultationscom, and on that
website you will see that I havea page that is dedicated to my
(01:00:12):
telemedicine consultations,which is what I have been doing
since the pandemic started andhave just continued on with that
.
I've been doing that actuallylonger than that, but since the
pandemic I have not been, youknow, doing in-person work and I
have also not been touring forlive events like I was, so I've
(01:00:37):
basically just been workingonline.
Live events are going to startup again and I also teach online
.
I have many courses.
Some of those are available anda course that is very specific
to our topic here today iscalled Illuminated Herbalism,
(01:00:58):
and that's available.
It's a series of 10 practices.
It's a short course.
It is 10 illuminated herbalismpractices and it's just examples
of how we use these differentherbs for these different
functions, how we can send themto different parts of the body
and so on.
And then I also teach at theShift Network, and if you go to
(01:01:24):
that website, the Shift Network,and you put in my name, then
you will see that there are many, many courses that I have
taught over the last 10 years onherbal medicine and
aromatherapy, and also ayear-long program that I did
(01:01:46):
twice, a year-long certificationin illuminated herbalism.
So those are the two mainplaces and if you go to the Crow
Consultations website, you willsee my consultation offerings
and you will see my classes andyou will also see that there are
regular events.
We have free meditationgatherings.
I have all kinds of coursesthat I launch over and over.
(01:02:08):
I just finished a course ondetoxification of microplastics.
There's a a lot of medical andthere's a lot of the spiritual
and practical things, and themain meditation program that I
teach is called Listening to theHeart.
It's a system of meditationthat's based on listening to our
(01:02:28):
own heartbeat, but it'sintegrated into all of these
spiritual lineages, fromclassical Asian medicine mostly,
and it's a system that peoplefind very easy to practice.
It's actually a very accessibleway to meditate that helps
people a lot.
So those are all there over atcrowconsultationscom and thank
(01:02:52):
you again.
Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
So fun.
So last question is if theworld could only remember one
feeling from your work, what doyou hope that feeling would be?
Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
One feeling.
Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
One feeling oh wow what would one feeling be?
Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
I guess I would sum things up, things up, a lot of
the meditation practices that Iteach and practice myself, and
actually what I talked about inthis interview it's.
It's actually a kind of naturalreverence that awakens in our
mind when we feel unity withnature so I would say that's a
(01:03:40):
feeling.
I guess it's a kind of bhakti,you know, a kind of spiritual
reverence.
That happens, it's organic,it's natural, it's not contrived
, but you can experience that ifyou go deeply enough into
paying attention to a cup of tea, because the mind is your
(01:04:00):
presence and so your presence isin the body and you are feeling
the body of the plant coming inand the body of the plant is
carrying its presence.
And so there is this union thathappens between two types of
consciousness humanconsciousness and plant
(01:04:21):
consciousness, and they'remingling together inside the
human body.
Now, inside that process, if westudy it, if we really learn
what it is, we will understandthat the sunlight is in there,
the moonlight is in there,that's what helped grow the
plants.
Soil is in there, the water isin there, and we can go very
(01:04:43):
deeply just in that oneexperience.
We can go very deeply into thebiosphere of the earth.
We can go very deeply into thecosmological intelligence of the
universe.
In other words, everythingthat's happening in the body is
a microcosm of everything thatis.
And if we can feel that, a stepat a time, just breathing, we
can dissolve the boundaries ofinner and outer.
(01:05:07):
Just drinking tea, we can mergeinto the flow of the water, you
see, because all of these thingsthat we identify as ourself,
they don't exist, they're alljust a creation of our
consciousness.
That's saying, I am this person, these are my boundaries, but
from the standpoint of prana andchi life force, from the
(01:05:30):
standpoint of sunlight, from thestandpoint of water, there's no
such boundaries, you see, andso that's what the spiritual
practices are all trying to showus.
They're all trying to take usback to that sense of unity.
And from that awareness ofunity then come all of the
natural, organic, spontaneous,genuine spiritual insights and
(01:05:54):
moods, and one of my favoritesis just reverence for all of
that that's happening inside ofus.
I guess that's what I would say.
Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
I love that.
Thank you for coming on, David.
This is such a fun.
Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
Thank you so much.
Hello, welcome back to the podcast Journey to Well,
I am Hannah, your host, andtoday I am joined by with David
Crow.
He is a clinical herbalist andacupuncturist and a expert in
Chinese medicine.
I've had some people I've hadan acupuncture and oriental
(00:25):
medicine practitioner on mypodcast before, but completely
different topics, completelydifferent ways that we're going
to share about all of thisbeautiful medicine.
So, david, thank you so muchfor coming on the podcast.
He is also before I forget,he's a 2-4 emotional generator,
so you know that I talk abouthuman design as well.
(00:47):
And my favorite question,probably of the entire podcast,
is the first question, which iswho is David and how would you
like to introduce yourself tothis audience and how has your
journey been thus far in yourlife?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Well, thank you been thus far in your life.
Well, thank you for theinvitation, the opportunity to
talk about myself.
(01:23):
It's the best to acupunctureChinese medicine first.
But when I started my traininga long time ago, as one of the
first Westerners to go to anacupuncture college in the
(01:45):
United States in the first yearthat there was such a thing, I
also came in contact with theTibetan Buddhist community that
was also beginning to come tothe Western culture.
So I actually encountered bothChinese medicine and Tibetan
(02:09):
Buddhism around the same time,in the early 1980s in San
Francisco.
And this is basically what hasbeen happening ever since these
two lineages of classical Asianmedicine and classical Asian
spiritual lineages.
But in my own studies it hasexpanded quite a lot.
(02:33):
And so I completed myacupuncture training, I became
licensed as an acupuncturist, Istarted learning and using a lot
about Chinese herbs, but Iquickly discovered that there
was far more going on in termsof the spiritual roots of these
medical lineages than was beingtaught in contemporary Western
(02:58):
Chinese medicine.
And so because I had contactwith the Tibetan Buddhist
community, specifically througha very renowned, very
accomplished spiritual teacher,kalu Rinpoche, who was the real
thing, the real yogi, whopracticed for years in snow
(03:22):
caves and just wearing, wearinga cotton cloth.
He was like the real, the realthing, and so I was very
impressed when I met him and Ibecame very interested in the
tibetan spiritual teachings andlineages and tibetan medicine.
So I ended up studying both ofthese subjects from a variety of
(03:46):
different sources teachers andlineages and I actually went to
the Himalayas and studied with aTibetan doctor over a period of
several years.
I lived in Kathmandu for a yearthe first time and studied with
Dr Nalwang Chopal, who was aTibetan doctor, for a year the
first time, and studied with DrNgawang Chopal, who was a
(04:07):
Tibetan doctor, and I waslearning simultaneously.
Chinese medicine.
Ayurvedic medicine and Tibetanmedicine over a period of about.
You know well, it still goes on.
So it's been over 40 years.
I've been studying it and atthe same time I was also doing a
lot of retreats with theseTibetan lamas and teachers.
(04:29):
And then, through Ayurveda, Ibecame very interested in the
Vedas and Tantra, and all ofthese lineages of medicine and
spirituality were all happeningthere in Kathmandu in my studies
, and I was bringing this allback to my clinical practice in
California, a step at a time,and then I became very aware
(04:54):
that the medicines, the plantmedicines of the Himalayas were
endangered, increasinglyendangered from a number of
different directions.
They were being over harvested,there was loss of biodiversity,
huge demand, all of thesethings.
And so I then took my clinicalpractice more and more into the
(05:18):
sustainable agricultural sideand developed one of the first
kind of green businesses in thefield of natural products and
started an essential oil companycalled Floricopia.
That went for 20 years and thattook me all over the world
being involved in sustainabilityprojects, ecological and
(05:41):
organic cultivation of medicinalplants and aromatics and
distillation of essential oils,and so these are three of the
big rivers of study that I havebeen involved in and I have been
really now going full circleback to the integration of the
(06:08):
spiritual teachings and themedical teachings, and they were
always there together.
In my studies of Tibetanmedicine, I attended many large
ceremonies where medicine wasbeing made and consecrated with
mantra and prayer, and this isvery universal everywhere.
(06:30):
It's also part of Ayurvedicmedicine, and so I began to
learn, at the same time that Iwas learning about the herbs and
learning about, you know, thesystem of Chinese medicine
learning about the herbs andlearning about the system of
Chinese medicine, learning aboutthe system, the concepts and
the principles of Tibetan andAyurvedic medicine.
I was also learning theassociated lineages of spiritual
(06:55):
practice.
And so in Chinese medicine,even though it wasn't being
taught, Chinese medicine isinseparable from Taoism and
Chinese medicine is inseparablefrom Qigong and Tai Chi and
Taoist alchemy, Taoistspirituality and all these
things.
So that's where I wasintroduced to this
(07:17):
inseparability.
And then in Tibetan medicineit's inseparable.
Ayurvedic medicine it'sinseparable.
Buddhist medicine it'sinseparable, and at the same
time, what we are receiving herein the West is very separated.
And so people who study Chinesemedicine, you know they have to
(07:38):
fulfill a curriculum, they haveto go and they have to get
accredited and then pass theirstate board exams and then they
can have a license.
And that's a big job andthere's not a whole lot of time
for doing spiritual practices.
But that was the basis of theclassical systems is that all of
(07:59):
these things are used together,use together, and so my focus,
especially now for the lastseveral years, has really been
studying, I guess, what youcould just call mind-body
medicine.
How do these things worktogether, why do they work
together and why is it important?
And it turns out that humanconsciousness plays a huge role
(08:23):
in what happens physiologicallyinside the body when we take
herbs.
And when we take herbs it has ahuge impact on human
consciousness.
And so it makes perfect sensethat in these traditions that
the medicines that were beingmade were being prayed over and
consecrated and so forth, andthat actually changes how they
(08:46):
work.
And then if we do thatourselves and we take them with
mindfulness and reverence andthings like that, then it
changes how they work also.
So, to sum it all up, all ofthis is basically led to a place
now where I understand andreally appreciate that herbal
medicine supports our spiritualpractice and spiritual practices
(09:10):
support herbal medicine andthis is a very important thing
to understand how this works andwhy it's important.
Because it's very practical inthe sense that it potentizes the
herbs when we use them withmindfulness and it changes
(09:30):
actually.
Anybody can feel it, anybodycan experience that meditation
makes the effects of the herbsstronger.
And likewise it's explicitlystated in these traditions that
the goal of medicine is not forcuring disease.
That's considered to be likethe lowest goal.
The lowest priority is treatingdisease, but the highest
(09:55):
priority of medicine is to helpachieve moksha, transcendence,
illumination, enlightenment,whatever we want to call it.
In other words, there's anultimate spiritual goal and the
herbs were always put in thatcontext.
Medicinal plants, naturalmedicine, was always put in the
context that it's not just aboutbeing free of symptoms.
(10:20):
It's also about having a longlife, and not just about having
a long life, but having a longlife with a purpose which is to
deepen our spiritual practiceand that has a goal which is a
final attainment illumination.
So these are the two primarysubjects that I've spent my life
(10:42):
studying and have seen that itis a very practical and a very
important thing and what it doesis it actually translates into
real benefits because,historically, herbal medicine
was always used to supportmeditation, and what that means
(11:03):
is that we have these resourcesnow that we need for this global
pandemic of dementia.
You see the herbs that supportour meditation practice are the
herbs that strengthen our brainand support our nervous system
and calm the anxiety andantidepressant and all that.
(11:24):
So that's where spiritualpractice and mental health are
closely related and that's whereherbs come in at that level.
So that's a brief overview of along journey.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
It has been a long journey, I imagine.
I have so many questions and Ido want to share one thing
before my question.
What you just said aboutmeditation helping to strengthen
the brain and helping also withanxiety and mental illnesses, I
(12:01):
shared quite honestly aboutthis.
A couple years ago I had a verydysregulated nervous system.
Quite a few situations in mylife led to that dysregulation
and so I started experiencing alot of anxiety and that was new
for me.
I had never had panic attacksor felt anxious, and one of the
(12:23):
only things that helped duringan actual panic attack was
actually meditating, and at thetime I found Dr who was it?
Yeah, it was a Dr Joe Dispenzameditation.
And then there's also AndrewHuberman talks about NSDR, which
is non-sleep deep rest, and youcan literally look it up on
(12:46):
YouTube.
It's a 10 or 15 minute video ofreally just body awareness and
bringing your body awareness tospecific pieces, which we don't
have to go into all the sciencebehind it, but that's really
helpful when you're having apanic attack to be able to come
into the present moment.
But they'll find five thingsthat you can see and the four
(13:06):
things that you can hear, andand other body awareness or
present moment meditations neverreally worked for me, but those
were two that really worked forme, and I'm so interested to
hear about how herbs can supportmedicine meditation, because I
have been an on and off lifelongmeditator.
(13:26):
I started meditating when I wasa kid, actually, because my mom
was a meditator and she had memeditate with her when I was in
like elementary school.
But I've never used herbs withmy meditation, so I'm very
excited to learn about that.
But first, my first question iswhy learn Tibetan, ayurvedic
(13:48):
and Chinese medicine all at thesame time?
And then part B of thatquestion is what are the
differences between those threethat you felt were very
important to learn and that ledyou to kind of continue down
this road of exploring all threeof these modalities?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Good question, Many questions actually so many.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
I know I can't.
I'm so excited to talk to you.
I have so many.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Well, first of all, tibetan, Chinese and Ayurvedic
medicine are fundamentally verysimilar.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
And they're also very similar to Unani medicine, the
Persian medicine and to Greekmedicine.
They're similar in the sensethat they have underlying
principles that are the same,and we find things like Vata,
pitta Katha in Ayurveda.
Well, that's there in Tibetanmedicine, it's there in a
(14:51):
different form in Chinesemedicine we hear about the five
elements of Chinese medicine andit's there in Ayurvedic
medicine in slightly differentform.
And the other thing that theyall share is plants and similar
kind of diagnostic methods.
But the reason that I wasfundamentally interested in
(15:15):
Chinese medicine first wasbecause that's what was starting
to appear in the West first.
Chinese medicine came first,ayurveda came later, and so
therefore I started through thedoorway of Chinese medicine and
became licensed as anacupuncturist and went into a
(15:37):
clinical practice and continuedmy studies.
But through entering thatdoorway I basically was going
into the doorway of Asianmedicine, which was also
eventually going to take me intoold European medicine, because
as I continued my studies I havealso studied Paleolithic
(16:00):
herbology and Persian medicineand Greek medicine and old
European medicine and also spentsome time in Central and South
America and learned about theshamanic uses of the plants, and
so basically it's all onesystem and there's no such thing
as an Ayurvedic herb or aChinese herb.
What there is is there's theplants, and people have been
(16:22):
using plants forever.
What there is is there's theplants, and people have been
using plants forever, and thenthere are the different cultures
that explain the plants indifferent kinds of ways.
So what happened was myinterest in Chinese medicine
(16:44):
took me into contact with Asianmedicine in general, but then my
interest specifically inTibetan Buddhism, from meeting
Kali Rinpoche, first took meinto Tibetan medicine, and that
is where I saw the similaritiesbetween Tibetan Ayurvedic and
Chinese medicine.
Because when I got to theHimalayas, I also started
studying with nine differentAyurvedic doctors.
(17:04):
I had nine Ayurvedic teachersthat I worked with and one
Tibetan doctor that I workedwith, and I worked with all of
these people for many years,coming and going and spending
periods of time both in Nepal,the Himalayas and in India.
And so I was fortunate becauseI was one of the few Westerners
(17:25):
who actually got the hands-ontraining in a classical kind of
internship where you go and you,you know, go and harvest the
herbs and chop them up andthings like that.
So that is basically how I camein contact with all three,
because they're all there, allthree of those things are in
that part of the world and youcan find in Kathmandu, you can
(17:48):
find Tibetan doctors, and youcan find the Unani.
The Arabic medicine is there,and you can find Ayurveda.
They're all there and they'reall very similar and they all
use a lot of similar plants andthey all use a lot of similar
concepts.
So that's how that happened.
But in terms of your broaderquestion about how do we use
(18:10):
herbs for meditation, all right,well, that's a big topic.
I'm so interested.
Okay, well, there's several waysthat we can think about this.
One is we could look at theplants that have always been
used to support meditation andwe find that there is a special
(18:32):
class of plants and that thesehave been known for a long time,
and these are things that wenow know about.
Also, many of these are braintonics and many of these are
adaptogens and many of these arelongevity herbs.
They all work in different ways, but then we also have to
(18:55):
consider, well, how manyobstacles are there to
meditation that we need toovercome?
So the broader answer is thatany herb that helps you meditate
is good for meditation.
You don't have to think of someexotic herb.
If you need to drink a cup ofchamomile tea to help you move
(19:15):
from being in a state of, youknow, activity and busyness and
restless mind and so forth, tomove into a calmer state, then
chamomile becomes an herb tosupport your meditation.
See, but there is a categoryspecifically of herbs that are
considered to be longevitytonics for the brain, and that's
(19:37):
a little easier to understandin terms of well, what are some
of the things that the yogisused?
Well, we find in Chinesemedicine, the most famous is the
ginseng, of course, that it'ssaid to give a person a long
life and to support the brain.
But in Chinese medicine we alsofind the reishi mushroom, okay,
(19:59):
and that's literally called themushroom of immortality.
So there was a whole lineage ofyogis and alchemists and
meditators and practitioners whowere looking for plants that
would give them long life longlife and that became the basis
(20:28):
of an entire branch of medicinein Chinese medicine and
Ayurvedic medicine and Tibetanmedicine also.
All these plants became part ofa system that were renowned for
protecting the body or, inAyurveda, for rejuvenation
rasayana and these are theplants that we now know
primarily as the adaptogens.
(20:49):
And so in Chinese medicine, thereishi mushroom was said to be
the mushroom of immortality, andnow what we know is that it is
neuroprotective and it reducesinflammation throughout the body
and it has all theseadaptogenic functions and helps
balance the immune system andall of these things.
So is there a specific herb thathelps you with meditation?
(21:14):
Then that's the one, okay, sowhat I uh share when we look at
the question from thatstandpoint, what herbs help
meditation?
Well, maybe you neednourishment to support your
brain, okay, maybe it's not, uh,so much an herb that's going to
(21:34):
help you meditate.
Maybe you need to have a littlebit of soup or bone broth or
something before you meditate.
A lot of a lot of people needthat.
But then there are all theseother herbs that are like
neuroprotective, like.
Two herbs are called brahmi inayurveda, and brahmi means is a
word that is derived from theterm brahma, which means pure
(21:56):
consciousness, the creator, pureconsciousness of the creator of
creation, and and Barammi meanstwo species.
Okay, one is Gotukola and theother is Bakopa, and both of
these herbs are famous for theirneuroprotective effects.
They're both being used a lotnow for the pandemic of dementia
(22:22):
and for ADD, all of these kindof things.
So we find that there's a wholeclass of herbs that are very
supportive to the brain, butthat's only one explanation, you
see.
That's that you have the herbsand they have these different
functions, and some of them arereal classical longevity herbs
(22:42):
and some of them are just likerelaxants and some are
nourishing herbs.
Okay, so that's starting fromthe standpoint of the herbs.
But then there's an entirelydifferent way to answer the
question, and that is it's notjust the herb, it's the way you
take it.
Okay, so you can take any herbpretty much mindlessly yeah and
(23:06):
that's how a lot of people doand they're sent home from their
visit with a practitioner youknow a grocery bag full of
products and they take a handfulof your supplements on an empty
stomach in the morning and theydon't pay any attention to any
of it.
They don't experiment with justone thing and see what it does,
(23:34):
and furthermore, they're in abig rush, and that's part of the
problem is that, you know, thegut-brain axis is always in
overdrive and that's why they'vegot all their symptoms, and so
herbal medicine becomes part ofthe problem.
And therefore, if we ask thequestion, well, what are the
herbs that are good formeditation?
(23:56):
We can say, all right, there'sthese different classes of herbs
that can help us in differentways.
But, even more fundamental thanthat, we can say how do we take
herbs so that they become themeditation?
And once we start looking atherbal medicine that way, then
(24:18):
we're really weaving backtogether these two lineages
again.
And so, therefore, you slowdown and you have your cup of
tea, and it can be virtuallyanything, but of course you want
to pick something that is goingto be supportive of your
meditation physiologically.
But let's just say Tulsi tea.
(24:40):
All right, so Tulsi is a verysimple herb and it's an
adaptogen and it's relaxing andrejuvenating to the nervous
system, and so it's always beenused for meditation.
But you can drink your Tulsitea in a big hurry and it's not
going to help you relax.
Or you can sit down and you canmeditate with your Tulsi tea
(25:04):
and you can sip on that Tulsitea very mindfully.
And this is the most importantpart of this whole story, and
that is when the human mindcomes in contact with the plant.
There's an exchange ofinformation, all right.
(25:27):
And so let's say, you've gotthat Tulsi tea and you sip it
very slowly and you pay closeattention.
Well, what is attention?
That's fundamental to how thisall works.
What is attention?
Well, attention is the focusedmind.
(25:48):
Well, what is the mind?
Well, this is important tounderstand also.
The mind is a field ofawareness that is directed by
attention, and the more theattention is focused, then the
more we receive information andthe more energy is transmitted.
(26:17):
Okay, so let's think about this, the transmission part.
A really good example of thisis anybody who does pranic
healing, reiki, anybody who doesany kind of energy work with
their hands, and your mind isvery focused and very clear.
(26:41):
You start to feel the qi aroundyour hands, and another person
can start to feel the qi aroundtheir hands also.
What is that qi?
The qi is your own mind that isbeing focused by the qi of your
attention.
All right, so then what happensis that the mind becomes very
(27:09):
focused and the focus begins todirect the flow of the qi, and
in Taoism they say yi dao, qidao.
Where the mind flows, the qiflows.
So, in other words, if you'repaying close attention, you're
doing some qigong healing, youcan feel the flow of that energy
and that is directing energy toanother person.
But when you're sitting therewith your tea and you're paying
(27:29):
attention to it, what you'redoing is you're directing the qi
into the tea.
Okay, the tea is becominginfused with qi and you are
being more present with the tea,and because you are more
present when you sip that,you're going to taste a whole
rainbow of colors that you'renot going to taste if you're
(27:50):
just in a rush.
Okay.
So, in other words, mindfulnesschanges our entire experience,
and mindfulness opens thischannel of energy to flow both
to what we are mindful of andfrom what it is into us.
(28:12):
Now here's how this translatesinto the most basic and
practical part of all of this,which is that when we use herbs,
with this high level ofmeditation-focused mindfulness,
the physiological effects areamplified tremendously.
And this is what we want.
(28:33):
We want to take herbs and wewant them to work.
But how do we know?
How do we do this?
How do we know that we areactually potentizing the herbs?
Well, the answer is simple whenwe are paying close attention
to what the herbs are doing inthe body, then our awareness of
(28:57):
those physiological processes isenhanced.
So, in other words, if we justdrink a you know, cup of tulsi
tea.
While we're running aroundbeing busy, we're not going to
pay any attention to those bodysensations on the other hand.
If you sit and you make that cupof tulsi tea your entire
(29:17):
meditation yeah and you smellits fragrance going into the
sinuses and feel how it changesthe sinus cavity and feel how
that information is passing intothe brain, feel how the tea is
moving through the throat, feelhow it moves into the stomach,
feel how it moves into the heart, feel how it moves to the
(29:40):
extremities.
If you're paying closeattention to that heart, if you
move to the extremities, ifyou're paying close attention to
that, then what you're actuallydoing is you are amplifying the
body sensations that the herbis producing.
And if you are amplifying thebody sensations of what the herb
(30:01):
is doing physiologically, thebody sensations of what the herb
is doing physiologically, thatmeans that you are potentizing
it, and so, therefore, this issomething that can be easily
experienced by anybody.
It's just the basis ofbiofeedback therapy, for example
and I have seen this because Ihave been teaching this now to
(30:23):
thousands of people andeverybody can do it and
everybody reports the same thing, which is that if you are in a
really focused state and you aredirecting the prana of your
attention to the herb the pranaof your attention to the herb,
(30:48):
and you are receiving the pranafrom the herb by being
completely present with it.
then the body sensations of thephysiological therapeutic
benefits are going to be greatlymagnified.
The end result of that is thatyou can drink a few sips of
Tulsi tea and you will feel thatit's a powerful drug, and a
(31:10):
practical benefit is that youcan learn to produce very strong
therapeutic effects at a verylow cost at a very low cost.
Okay.
Another benefit and this is oneof the reasons that I was very,
very impressed with the resultsof this in larger groups.
When I teach classes wherewe're using herbs, there may be
(31:36):
hundreds of people in thoseclasses and I don't know
anything about their medicalcondition and they may be on all
kinds of medications and wehave to be very careful about
using certain kinds of herbsthat are really, you know,
potent but we're microdosing,Okay, that's.
(31:58):
The other thing is that we'rejust microdosing and people can
feel the benefits.
But because we're microdosingand people can feel the benefits
, but because we're micro-dosing, it's very, very safe for
people, Because what people areactually learning how to do is
to use their mind, to use theprana of the mind and the
(32:22):
attention in conjunction withthe healing prana, the vitality,
the life force of the plants.
So, in other words, we're usingour mind to potentize the
healing benefits of the plants,but physiologically we're taking
very low doses.
So that's a quick overview ofthat process.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah, which I think is an important topic to touch
on mind altering herbs ormushrooms or you know, like,
even like any kind of journeylike Rappe or Bufo or like
(33:14):
what's the.
All I can think of isashwagandha.
That's not what I'm thinking of.
Ayahuasca, ayahuasca, any ofthose big, any of that.
Ayahuasca, any of those big,any of that.
What I would consider that'slike a big thing to explore and
there's nothing wrong with it.
I'm not saying that, I justpersonally haven't felt called
to it.
But what I touched on when youand I had a conversation was the
(33:39):
importance of kind of exploringthese different aspects,
because I personally think thatit's so cool to explore
chamomile or Tulsi orashwagandha or these plants or
these I don't know how you wouldtechnically explain them, but
they're not mind mind altering,like, like ayahuasca is, or
(34:01):
maybe, if you really microdose,ayahuasca.
I don't know, I don't knowenough about herbs, but that's
something that I would love foryou to touch on and I would love
for your opinion on and how youhave seen.
I'm sure that you haveexperienced both, so I would
love to hear a little bit aboutyour experience.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Again, lots of questions.
Okay, well, I do have someexperience with entheogenic
plants, but my experience was along time ago in the traditional
cultures.
Okay, and that's the difference.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
You see, and things are very different now than when
I met Maria Sabina in themountains of Oaxaca.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
And now, you know, all you have to do is go to a
yoga studio on a Saturday nightand somebody's pouring ayahuasca
and there's all these thingsthat are available, or you can
just go on TripAdvisor.
You can actually, you canactually, you know, find
(35:13):
ayahuasca ceremonies onTripAdvisor or ecotourism, okay,
yeah.
Now the main problem with thisis because it's using a very
powerful plant that can shiftour perspective of ourself very
dramatically and it can make usvery sensitive and it can
(35:33):
dissolve the boundaries of ourpersonality and our ego and
sense of self.
And that has to be donecarefully, because if you're not
ready for it, it's too powerful, or you're surrounded by a
hundred people who are allhaving, you know, a whole bunch
of emotional catharsis.
It can be very painful, and sowhat's missing is the
(35:55):
traditional container, and therewere actually four containers
and these are all important toconsider, and the main problem
now is that these containers aregone.
All right.
So the first container is acontainer of the environment
itself, and people historicallylived in an area and they didn't
(36:16):
travel far and they had theseplants, and these plants were in
the geographical region andpeople had knowledge about these
plants and went back a long,long time.
And so in the amazon it was theayahuasca and many other things
, in the mountains of oaxaca itwas the psilocybe mexicana.
In the southwest, northern, innorthern mexico it was a peyote.
(36:39):
And so the first container isthe land itself.
Now, if you take the plant outof that land, then it changes
the plant and it changes thenature of the experience.
But the second container insidethe land was the culture, you
see, because the culture had amythology and the culture had
(37:05):
its mythological creation,stories and its deities and its
songs, clothing and art andpreparation for the ceremony and
(37:29):
after the ceremony.
Much of that is gone, you see,and so the second container is
culture inside the container ofthe land.
And then the container insidethe culture is a ceremony itself
, and so that would be theteepee ceremony of the Native
American church, you see, or itwould be the all-night vigil
(37:54):
staying up with the mushrooms ofthe Mazatec Indians, or it
would be the all-night ceremonyof the ayahuasca drinking, you
see.
So then there's a ceremony andthe ceremony is a container
itself, and the container isthat people are there for a
purpose, they're there to pray,there's an elder, there's a
(38:17):
sequence of events, there'smusic, there's training, there's
all of these things that happen, and that's a container within
the container of the culture,within the container of the land
.
And then the container insidethe ritual is the plant, and the
plant is the container of theactive ingredients.
You see, now, when you have allthose containers, then what
(38:40):
happens?
The person is in the land andthey're in the culture, and
they're in the culture andthey're in the mythology of the
culture, and then they're in theritual and they're in the inner
guidance of the tradition andthe elders, and then they ingest
the plant and all of thosethings are holding the
experience in a way that makessense, and therefore the person
(39:04):
knows why they're there, theyknow what they're doing and they
become familiar with it.
And many times people weren'tjust dropped into these
ceremonies.
You had to be initiated a stepat a time and learn these things
carefully, and you weren'tinvited to the next level until
you were ready.
And now people can just dropinto anything and get blasted
(39:26):
away by high doses of this stuffand they're not familiar with
the inner landscape and that'swhere the problems come.
They're not familiar that, oh,I've got so much pain in my body
.
It might be because the personnext to you is is going through
chemotherapy.
You know people don't have theknowledge to identify the inner
(39:46):
landscape and the phenomenathat's happening.
And they also, in many casesand I have worked with many
people where this happens theyhear that these ceremonies are
going to be so good for them,resolve their past trauma and
all you know that's the mainthing why people go.
(40:07):
You know it's going to help withyour past trauma, but all it
does is it just triggers it yeahand, furthermore, it's
triggered in a way that makesyou very vulnerable and you
start having all thisoverwhelming uh information
coming in, and anytime thepersonality structure is fragile
(40:27):
, there's a risk of damage.
And so there have been manypeople, and it's not just
ayahuasca, it's not justceremonies.
This can happen in a 10-dayVipassana meditation retreat, or
it can happen just in a reallyintensive kind of you know,
motivational weekend.
For some people, it pushes thembeyond the ability of their
(40:48):
personality to integrate what'sgoing on and they end up, you
know, having a psychoticbreakdown.
That happens.
That happens because people gointo these situations that are
simply too powerful for theirpsyche to handle.
They're not ready for it, andthat's what's missing is that in
(41:09):
these containers, you have thissequence of events where people
are trained a step at a time,initiated a step at a time.
You know you're brought up inthese containers so that by the
time you get to the realpowerful stuff, you're ready for
it, you know what you're doingand you know what you're getting
yourself into.
(41:29):
So, my opinion about entheogensis that they're incredibly
valuable.
They're very, very valuable.
They help a lot of people, butthey're totally out of context
now and because of that then youknow, certain people get hurt
from it and a lot of people theyhave a great experience, but
(41:49):
then it's kind of like well,life goes on, everything's
pretty much the same.
So these plants have a place.
They have a very importantplace if they're used correctly
by people, when they're readyfor them and they use them in
the right way and they get theright information from it.
But that doesn't necessarilymean that it has any ultimate,
(42:14):
higher purpose.
And here's a real, fundamentaldifference between shamanism and
the meditation lineages.
When we are talking about anentheogenic experience to have
this breakthrough and thiscleansing and this healing,
we're talking about greatbenefits and we're talking about
(42:38):
relieving suffering.
Okay, we're talking about aperson becoming more
psychologically integrated, aperson healing the past, being
able to live a better life, allof these kind of things.
But that was never the goal inthe traditional lineages okay,
in the classical spirituallineages of Asia specifically,
(43:01):
but also in the higher teachingsof the shamanic lineages also,
there was an ultimate goal.
And because there was anultimate goal.
There was very little emphasisthat was placed on resolving
your past trauma.
What they were really lookingfor was resolving all trauma
permanently.
So they talked about it indifferent language.
(43:22):
They said moksha, emancipationfrom bondage to the senses.
They called it enlightenment,okay, they called it
illumination.
Okay, they called it crossingto the far shore.
They called it relief, escapefrom samsara.
(43:43):
They called it relief, escapefrom samsara.
So in these lineages there wasmuch less emphasis on your
personal trauma and much moreemphasis on an ultimate state of
liberation from all suffering.
Now that's very different.
Now the entheogens can be apart of that process, but what
(44:08):
we see is that people can do thehomework with their entheogens,
they can have a breakthroughwith the entheogens, but that
doesn't necessarily translateinto a deeper understanding of
the nature of the mind and thereality that is really
transcendent.
Okay, I've gone a little off ona tangent here.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
I love it.
I love it.
The thing that I was going tosay earlier was how you're
connecting it.
You know, even if we have thesebig mindset retreats or 10 day
meditations, we can still dodamage.
I am certified in somaticbreathwork and we talk a lot
about that in the training andsome one way that I have chosen
(44:56):
really to lead my breathworkjourneys because I realized this
lead my breathwork journeysbecause I realized this is not
to push people.
I think breathwork is also oneof those things where it is
extremely transformational.
It's this beautiful, powerful,potent tool to dive deep into
(45:17):
your soma, your body and and youcan have these really beautiful
experiences and insights andhealing.
But when we push ourselves orare pushed by the practitioner
to go deeper or express in a waythat our body is just not ready
(45:38):
or our psyche is just not readyto express, it can be very
damaging.
So a lot of times in breathworkjourneys, sometimes people fall
asleep or sometimes people will, will come to the end and
they'll say I didn't, I didn'treally feel that much Like I
just don't feel like Iexperienced everything that
other people are sharing and Iwant to really normalize that,
(46:02):
and one of the ways that I sayis is if, especially if your
body falls asleep, it's aprotective mechanism, so you
fell asleep for a reason.
And if you don't feel that youare able to experience what
everyone experiences what I'mputting in quotes because
everyone's experience is sodifferent but if you, if your
expectation was not your reality, it's likely that your body
(46:26):
wasn't ready, and that's good toknow, and your body is
protecting you and you still hada beautiful journey, I mean,
you still got something out ofit.
But if your expectation wasdifferent than than what
actually ended up happening,it's it's, our bodies are very
wise and very protective, and sothat's also.
I mean you touched oneverything, pretty much, that I
(46:48):
have issues with, with thoseayahuasca journeys and all of
those types of journeys, becauseit it can be very damaging and
it also can be verytransformational.
Again, I'm not I'm not negatingit, but bringing awareness to
the other side of this couldalso happen.
(47:09):
And that's again why I love thisconversation of start
experimenting with herbs, otherherbs start experimenting with.
I mean, you've already listedso many, but my last, my second
to last question would be how dowe know how?
No, how do we explore anddecipher what herbs might be
(47:32):
most supportive for us.
So how would we, if we feelthat we're not very in touch and
in tune?
How would we know if it'sbetter to choose an herb that
calms the nervous system versusone that stimulates the brain,
versus one that helps withlongevity?
How would we go aboutnavigating that in our own
(47:54):
journey?
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Yeah, good.
Well, I don't think that thatis a starting point.
Okay.
Because the starting point isreally paying attention to any
herb.
Okay.
And so, therefore, the realdiscovery is not so much
(48:20):
learning about herbal medicine,is not so much learning about
herbal medicine.
It's about learning about therelationship between our mind
and body, and learning about therelationship between the mind
and the body and the plant, andtherefore what we're really
learning about.
If we have a simple tea andwe're doing mindfulness
(48:44):
meditation, paying very closeattention to the tea and tasting
it and feeling it, then thatprocess is actually miraculous
and it is bringing together,first of all, our consciousness,
our body, the plant and theplant consciousness, and so four
(49:12):
things are coming together.
If you're drinking a cup ofTulsi tea with mindful
meditation, your mind is present, you are feeling your body, you
are ingesting the body of theplant, and the body of the plant
is transmitting theconsciousness of the plant.
And so four things are comingtogether two forms of
(49:35):
consciousness and two forms ofbodies.
All right now.
That's how herbal medicineworks and that's how our food
works, and this is an ongoingprocess.
Every time we eat something,okay, consciousness is being
assimilated into ourconsciousness.
All right.
The body of something else isbeing assimilated into our body,
(49:56):
all right now.
If we go very deeply into that,then that opens up all of these
possibilities for self-healing.
And that's where visualizationcomes in, because not only do we
start to feel these sensations,but we can actually focus on a
(50:17):
particular part of the body andthe herb will go there.
And so if you are drinking Tulsitea and you want it to nourish
your brain, you drink the Tulsitea and you smell the fragrance
going to the sinuses and youwill feel that the fragrance is
actually activating your brain.
And if you are paying closeattention to your brain, you're
(50:38):
activating it.
You're increasing thecirculation.
Cerebral circulation isincreasing just by paying
attention, and so, therefore,you are sending the Tulsi to
your brain.
Okay, so we can learn how tosend the herbs to different
parts of the body.
Now, that's more important thanknowing about the different
(51:01):
kinds of herbs first.
Okay, what's most important isto study the process, no matter
what you're eating or whatyou're drinking, okay or what
you're taking, and so mostpeople can start with that,
because they already havesomething.
Probably.
People already drink Tulsi tea,they drink ginger, they take
some turmeric, they probablytake some adaptogens.
(51:21):
What's most important is stoptaking so many things, okay and
take one thing really carefullyand pay really deep attention to
it.
All right, because people willhave this idea in our
(51:42):
contemporary herbal culture thatmore is better and so if it's
going to be more, it should bemore mindfulness, not more herbs
.
All right, and people arereally in this kind of consumer
mindset when it comes to, oh,the latest product and greatest
adaptogen and this and that.
(52:02):
Okay, and that's not what'simportant.
Okay.
What's important is tounderstand and cultivate a
deeper relationship with theplant and its consciousness, and
from that comes great reverence.
Actually, when you can start tofeel the presence of that
consciousness that's in the herbworking inside your
consciousness and your body,then you have entered into a
(52:25):
very deep level of herbalmedicine.
And then if you have that levelof sensitivity, you don't have
to listen to all thisinformation.
And that's a lot of what I doin my medical consultations is,
people are greatly confusedbecause there's so much
information out there about, ohyou should do this and you
(52:45):
should do that, and they've gotthese gigantic herbal pharmacies
and they don't know what'sdoing what.
And okay, how do we answer thatquestion that you just asked?
How do we pick the herbs?
Well, all right now, we cananswer that herbs.
(53:06):
Well, all right now, we cananswer that.
The easiest way to do this isjust to identify your primary
need.
So what is the primary needthat you have when you sit down
to meditate?
Well, there are two things thatare going to happen.
One is first you're going to berestless and then you're going
to be tired.
Those are the two primaryobstacles to meditation.
(53:31):
Those are age-old obstacles tomeditation.
Now, here we have to ask abigger question, you know?
So what?
So what if we're agitated?
So what if we're tired?
Well, the so what is that?
We're trying to meditate in aculture and a time that's not
conducive to meditation.
Yeah.
And so now we say, well, do wewant to use herbs to kind of
overcome that?
Well, sure, you can take somecannabis, you can hit your brain
(53:52):
over the head and you can, youknow, get into a deeply relaxed
state pretty fast.
But you know you'll wake up thenext day with a bit of brain fog
from it.
Okay, all right.
So there's a couple of thingsyou can do.
One of the most basic ways toincorporate herbs into
meditation practice is to takethings that help you relax
(54:16):
faster, and it doesn't have tobe powerful.
You don't have to take cannabis.
And it doesn't have to bepowerful, you don't have to take
cannabis.
It can just be chamomile.
It can be a little bit of lemonbalm.
You see, it can be just alittle.
You know anything that you like.
A little catnip tea is veryrelaxing.
Okay, you can take a few dropsof a little bit of you know
(54:37):
valerian tincture.
If you're really overstimulated,you can take a little bit of
California poppy.
Just take a little bit of arelaxant herb and notice how
relaxing it is, and then thenext thing you're going to
notice is you're asleep.
And so then the question comeswell, what's the matter with
(55:00):
that?
Nothing, you didn't enter intomeditation, but what you did was
you turned off the internalnervous system stress for a
while.
Now really deep meditation isnot going to come until your
nervous system has been restedand rejuvenated for a while, for
(55:25):
a while.
And that's why in the classicalmonastic settings, where the
longer retreats happen, what yousee is the same over and over
again.
First morning, all the monksand nuns come in and everybody
sits down and everybody fallsasleep on their cushion, and
that goes on throughout thefirst day.
Second day it repeats itself.
Third day it starts to get alittle bit better and then
(55:45):
finally, by the fourth day,people in the morning meditation
sessions are actually stayingawake.
It takes about four days totransition out of ordinary life
into a routine where you canactually meditate Okay, actually
meditate, okay.
But here's where individualchoice also comes, because you
may find that what is mostnourishing for you and most
(56:11):
supportive of your meditationpractice is not a nerve-align
calmative, like you know,chamomile, lemon balm tea,
something like that.
You may find that what is mostsupportive of your meditation
practice is a cup of soup orbone broth with some reishi
mushroom tincture in it, you see.
(56:32):
And so therefore, we have twoprimary categories we work with.
One is the things that help thenervous system calm down
quickly, and the other is thethings that nourish the nervous
system, because these are twosides of the same thing.
You're overstimulated and youcan't meditate.
(56:53):
It means that you're also tiredand it means that once
stimulation wears off, you'regoing to fall asleep and in the
sleep process you're going tostart to rejuvenate, and so
after you've had your little napon your meditation cushion,
then you can drink a cup of soupwith some reishi mushroom in it
, and it's going to be verynourishing.
(57:14):
You're going to feel the warmthin the stomach and you feel like
, wow, okay, now I'm reallystarting to recover.
So that's kind of like a fastrecovery from a stressful day.
Drink something to calm down,go ahead and take a little rest
on your cushion and then, whenyou wake up, then take something
that's nourishing.
Take a little adaptogen, have alittle American ginseng, you
(57:37):
know something like that, andwhen you start taking those
things, then it's building theenergy back up, and when the
energy starts to come back up,that's when you can sit and
really meditate for a longerperiod of time.
So those are the two maincategories that we can use, but
people should meditate onanything that they're using,
(57:59):
anything at all.
They should meditate on how itfeels.
Speaker 1 (58:04):
I love.
You said if it's going to bemore because we live in a more
culture, let it be moremindfulness.
That is one of my favoritequotes from this whole
conversation and what abeautiful, beautiful invitation.
Thank you so much for all ofyour wisdom.
Thank you for bringing this newperspective and this added
(58:28):
benefit of meditation, and awhole new perspective of
meditation.
I actually I love, I lovechatting meditation.
I taught a class years ago and Inamed it the art of meditation
because, I really wanted to diveinto conversation around what
is meditation, because we haveall of these stereotypes and all
(58:49):
of these ideas of meditationhas to be that four hour long
sitting in like a Tibetanmonastery with with your
meditation cushion and theincense burning.
And it doesn't have to be thatand I love.
Earlier you said, let thetaking in of the tea, whatever
(59:09):
it is, let that be yourmeditation and noticing how it's
going down your esophagus andhow it's affecting your sinuses
and how it's touching all ofyour senses, and that itself can
be a meditation.
So I love all of your work.
Thank you so much for coming on.
I would love to have you sharewhere people can stay connected
(59:34):
with you.
Where do you spend the mosttime?
How can people stay connectedwith you?
How can people continue tolearn from you?
Speaker 2 (59:43):
Well, thank you for all the nice words.
Speaker 1 (59:45):
They're honest.
Speaker 2 (59:46):
And thank you for the invitation to be here and thank
you for the invitation to letpeople know.
I have a website it is easy toremember, it's
crowconsultationscom, c-r-o-wconsultationscom, and on that
website you will see that I havea page that is dedicated to my
(01:00:12):
telemedicine consultations,which is what I have been doing
since the pandemic started andhave just continued on with that
.
I've been doing that actuallylonger than that, but since the
pandemic I have not been, youknow, doing in-person work and I
have also not been touring forlive events like I was, so I've
(01:00:37):
basically just been workingonline.
Live events are going to startup again and I also teach online
.
I have many courses.
Some of those are available anda course that is very specific
to our topic here today iscalled Illuminated Herbalism,
(01:00:58):
and that's available.
It's a series of 10 practices.
It's a short course.
It is 10 illuminated herbalismpractices and it's just examples
of how we use these differentherbs for these different
functions, how we can send themto different parts of the body
and so on.
And then I also teach at theShift Network, and if you go to
(01:01:24):
that website, the Shift Network,and you put in my name, then
you will see that there are many, many courses that I have
taught over the last 10 years onherbal medicine and
aromatherapy, and also ayear-long program that I did
(01:01:46):
twice, a year-long certificationin illuminated herbalism.
So those are the two mainplaces and if you go to the Crow
Consultations website, you willsee my consultation offerings
and you will see my classes andyou will also see that there are
regular events.
We have free meditationgatherings.
I have all kinds of coursesthat I launch over and over.
(01:02:08):
I just finished a course ondetoxification of microplastics.
There's a a lot of medical andthere's a lot of the spiritual
and practical things, and themain meditation program that I
teach is called Listening to theHeart.
It's a system of meditationthat's based on listening to our
(01:02:28):
own heartbeat, but it'sintegrated into all of these
spiritual lineages, fromclassical Asian medicine mostly,
and it's a system that peoplefind very easy to practice.
It's actually a very accessibleway to meditate that helps
people a lot.
So those are all there over atcrowconsultationscom and thank
(01:02:52):
you again.
Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
So fun.
So last question is if theworld could only remember one
feeling from your work, what doyou hope that feeling would be?
Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
One feeling.
Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
One feeling oh wow what would one feeling be?
Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
I guess I would sum things up, things up, a lot of
the meditation practices that Iteach and practice myself, and
actually what I talked about inthis interview it's.
It's actually a kind of naturalreverence that awakens in our
mind when we feel unity withnature so I would say that's a
(01:03:40):
feeling.
I guess it's a kind of bhakti,you know, a kind of spiritual
reverence.
That happens, it's organic,it's natural, it's not contrived
, but you can experience that ifyou go deeply enough into
paying attention to a cup of tea, because the mind is your
(01:04:00):
presence and so your presence isin the body and you are feeling
the body of the plant coming inand the body of the plant is
carrying its presence.
And so there is this union thathappens between two types of
consciousness humanconsciousness and plant
(01:04:21):
consciousness, and they'remingling together inside the
human body.
Now, inside that process, if westudy it, if we really learn
what it is, we will understandthat the sunlight is in there,
the moonlight is in there,that's what helped grow the
plants.
Soil is in there, the water isin there, and we can go very
(01:04:43):
deeply just in that oneexperience.
We can go very deeply into thebiosphere of the earth.
We can go very deeply into thecosmological intelligence of the
universe.
In other words, everythingthat's happening in the body is
a microcosm of everything thatis.
And if we can feel that, a stepat a time, just breathing, we
can dissolve the boundaries ofinner and outer.
(01:05:07):
Just drinking tea, we can mergeinto the flow of the water, you
see, because all of these thingsthat we identify as ourself,
they don't exist, they're alljust a creation of our
consciousness.
That's saying, I am this person, these are my boundaries, but
from the standpoint of prana andchi life force, from the
(01:05:30):
standpoint of sunlight, from thestandpoint of water, there's no
such boundaries, you see, andso that's what the spiritual
practices are all trying to showus.
They're all trying to take usback to that sense of unity.
And from that awareness ofunity then come all of the
natural, organic, spontaneous,genuine spiritual insights and
(01:05:54):
moods, and one of my favoritesis just reverence for all of
that that's happening inside ofus.
I guess that's what I would say.
Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
I love that.
Thank you for coming on, David.
This is such a fun.
Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
Thank you so much.
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