July 3, 2025 • 52 mins
# 167 - What drives someone to abandon their shoes and run barefoot through mountains, forests, and even snow? In this captivating conversation, Ken Posner reveals the unexpected journey that turned him from a corporate professional with chronic running injuries into a barefoot endurance athlete who's completed thousands of miles without shoes.
Ken's transformation began pragmatically – seeking relief from injury and following the principles in Christopher McDougall's "Born to Run." But what started as injury prevention blossomed into a life philosophy. Far from merely a physical adjustment, going barefoot created what Ken calls "the original human mindfulness." When your feet are unprotected, large portions of your brain that normally process worry must instead focus on safely navigating terrain, creating a natural state of presence that's increasingly rare in our hyper-connected world.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn as Ken shares his remarkable accomplishment of completing "the grid" – climbing all 35 Catskill peaks every month for a year, totaling 420 ascents. This monumental challenge emerged during a period when his corporate career had plateaued, giving him purpose when he most needed it. Through blizzards, ice, and challenging terrain, Ken discovered that moving slowly through nature was mentally harder than the all-out effort he was accustomed to – a profound lesson for our hurried lives.
Drawing inspiration from American transcendentalists like Thoreau and Emerson, Ken articulates how these physical challenges become spiritual pilgrimages that strip away modern preoccupations and reveal our authentic connection to nature. His current goal of climbing 1,000 mountains barefoot (he's at 521) serves as a structured way to "take himself offline" from conventional life and work on his character.
Whether you're a committed athlete or someone simply curious about reconnecting with natural movement, Ken's insights will change how you think about the ground beneath your feet. Perhaps the wisdom we seek is already there – if only we're brave enough to feel it.
To learn more about Ken and his book, Chasing the Grid, check out his website www.barefootken.com and give him a follow on Instagram @long_brown_path.
Want to be a guest on Journey with Jake? Send me a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/journeywithjake
Visit LandPirate.com to get your gear that has you, the adventurer, in mind. Use the code "Journey with Jake" to get an additional 15% off at check out.
Visit geneticinsights.co and use the code "DISCOVER25" to enjoy a sweet 25% off your first purchase.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What drives someone to ditch their shoes and run
barefoot through mountains,trails and even snow.
Ken Posner does just that andhe's tackled the grid, climbing
all 35 Catskill Peaks everymonth for a year.
We dive into his extremeendurance, barefoot mindset in
his upcoming book.
Let's jump in with Ken Posner.
(00:20):
Welcome to Journey with Jake.
This is a podcast aboutadventure and how, through our
adventures, we can overcome thechallenges of life that come our
way.
While I expect you will learnsome things about different
adventures, this show willentertain you.
Each episode will feature adifferent guest or guests, as
they share experiences andstories from the different
adventures they have been on.
Not only will you beentertained, but you will also
(00:42):
hear the failures and trialseach guest faces and what they
have done or are doing toovercome the hardships that come
their way.
My goal is to take each of uson a journey through the
experiences of my guests, withthe hope that you'll be
entertained and inspired toovercome your day-to-day
challenges.
After all, it's not all aboutthe destination, as it is about
(01:12):
the journey.
Welcome to Journey with Jake.
This show is all about peoplewho chase adventure, push limits
and live life with purpose.
Be sure to follow me onInstagram at
journeywithjakepodcast.
And, don't forget, you can alsocatch full episodes on YouTube.
This podcast is proud to bepart of the PodMatch Podcast
(01:35):
Network, connecting podcasterswith incredible guests from
around the world.
Check out podmatchcom forwardslash network.
Today's guest, ken Posner, is abarefoot endurance runner who's
completed the grid, climbing all35 Catskill peaks every month
for a year.
Beyond the physical feat, kenshares powerful lessons on
simplicity, mindset and pushingyour limits.
(01:57):
I walked away from thisconversation with a new
perspective on how we movethrough life, literally and
figuratively.
If you enjoyed this episode,check out episode 41 with ultra
marathon legend Dean Karnazesfor even more inspiration from
the world of extreme endurance.
Let's get to my conversationwith Ken Posner.
This is fun.
I've got barefoot Ken with metoday.
(02:19):
Ken, welcome to Journey withJake.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Hey, jake, I'm just super excited to be here.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
I said Barefoot.
I know that's not your officialname, I know it's Ken Posner,
but if you don't mind, give us alittle background on who you
are, and then we're going todive into this whole why we're
even talking bare feet to beginwith.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
So yeah, tell me a little background of where
you're from, all that good stuffno-transcript got back on my
(03:06):
feet and got a corporate job,which is what I continue to do
to this day, as we'll talk aboutJake over the years.
To balance the intensity ofwork, the demands,
competitiveness, I got into alittle bit of running and that
became trail running and thenultra marathons and then peak
(03:26):
bagging and through hiking.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
That's where our story kicks off, I love it and I
love it because I've had a fewultra runners on the show.
I've had someone who likes tobag peaks, as you say, mountain
climb.
I've had some through hikers,some trail hikers.
You've kind of done it all,which I think is fantastic, and
then you're doing it barefoot aswell, which we'll get into in
just a minute.
For you getting into that whole, you know, picking up running,
(03:51):
doing that sort of thingsomething that you kind of did
as a kid, or did you just kindof pick it up later?
Was it the whole stress of thejobs and stuff?
You're like, hey, let me getout and get some exercise.
What was it about running andgetting outdoors?
What was it about running andgetting outdoors?
That?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
type of thing that led you to that.
Well, you know, I tried to dosome running as a kid but I had
chronic shin splints so Icouldn't really do very much at
all, and it was only.
I got, obviously, in the army.
I did some running, I put upwith the problem and just gutted
it out.
It was later in my forties.
I saw colleagues at workbeginning to fall by the wayside
.
My boss had a mild heart attackand retired early and I got to
(04:29):
take over his portfolio and Iwas like, well, look, I'm
advancing in my career.
But there was sort of a patternthere.
And then it happened again witha colleague who got sick and
left, and so I realized in my40s that I was going to need to
invest in myself if I was goingto make it to the long term.
Invest in myself if I was goingto make it to the long term.
So entirely pragmatic at first.
But the thing about loving issorry.
(04:55):
The thing about running is thatI loved it so much that once I
got into it for pragmaticreasons, it began to take over
my life.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
We're just going to dive into it early here, because
I mean I could go a lot moreabout this whole running thing,
just because it's amazing.
First of all, kudos, those ofyou guys who run trails, who
ultra run incredible.
And again I've had a few.
Um, I don't know if you knowDean, who Dean Karnazes is.
He was on the show.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Oh, sure, sure, and he's a hero of mine and I read
his book, the ultra marathon man, I was like.
And he had a corporate crisis,didn't he?
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Correct.
Yeah, same same type of thing.
I've seen a similaritiesbetween a lot of these ultra
runners and kind of that's.
You know, it seems kind of likethere's some sort of it's not
necessarily a crisis, butthere's something that pushes
them towards, towards doing this.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
And I feel like you have this feeling that maybe
there's something not quiteright with the world and the
idea bothers you like theproverbial splinter in the back
of your mind.
That can happen, and I listenedto your excellent episode with
Jeremy George and he had aperiod of challenge.
He had a number of challengesand it led him just to
(05:58):
re-examine where he was going inlife.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
And you've done a lot .
I looked at some of your stats.
I think it's 100 plus marathons.
You've done a lot.
Where did the barefoot comeabout?
When did you decide, okay, I'mgoing to start running barefoot,
or was it hiking barefoot?
How did the whole barefootthing come about?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Well, you'll find that I'm very impressionable,
because Dean Karnasas was partof the reason I got into ultra
running.
The most popular running bookof all time is Chris McDougall's
Born to Run, in which headvocates for barefoot running
as a way to restore natural gaitand alignment.
And his argument, his theory,is that shoes are great for what
(06:36):
they do, but they canpredispose people to injury
because they change your gaitever so much.
So apparently I'm the onlyperson who didn't get the memo,
and the memo is hey, it's justan idea, it's just a metaphor,
it's about seeking the primalactivities that we attribute to
(06:56):
our ancestors, but you're notsupposed to actually do it.
I didn't get that memo, so Ibegan to experiment with it, and
again only for pragmaticreasons, because I was guess
what?
Starting to have injuries and Iwas like I better give this a
try before I run myself topieces, and the surprise was how
much fun it was, and so, as Istarted doing it, I lost
(07:17):
interest in shoes.
So, just to be clear, the 100,I think it's 116 marathons and
ultras, most of those were inshoes.
It's only the last 26 that havebeen verified.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
The last 26, though that's pretty impressive.
I got to tell you so.
Last fall it's November I ranin a half marathon down in
southern Utah in a little towncalled St George.
It's called the Snow CanyonHalf Marathon, Beautiful canyon
that you run through down there,Just gorgeous.
And I'm cruising along and I'mprobably about four or five
(07:49):
miles in right in the heart ofthe canyon, Just beautiful.
People are passing me, I'mpassing people.
There's thousands of runners inthis thing and sure enough,
someone goes flying by mebarefoot and I was just like
shocked.
Some people next to me startedclapping and cheering for him
and they were just like and herehe goes, just running barefoot.
So to me it's just from theoutside looking in.
(08:11):
It's amazing that you do that,because it's hard to imagine.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
That happened to be at the Boston Marathon twice and
at the New York City Marathon.
Alex Ramsey, I think, is theguy and he's a very accomplished
barefoot and sandal runner.
I think it was Alex, and ofcourse I was running in
minimalist shoes.
So I was like, hey, that's socool, but you know I'm wearing
minimalist shoes.
But he was already past me Atthe Boston Marathon.
I saw this guy running and youknow I was trying to set a
(08:40):
personal best, so I was inracing mode.
It's set a personal best.
So I was in racing modes, like,and he just ran past me and he
was smiling and then he took outa little camera and took some
pictures and ran on.
But here's the weird thing uh,jake, after reading Chris
McDougall's book this is gonnasound weird I started noticing
people's feet a little bit more.
I was in Central Park and a manand his daughter ran past
(09:05):
barefoot and I was like, wow,that looks so natural.
I was in the MetropolitanMuseum of Art with some family
and looking at the ancient Greekand ancient Roman statues and I
thought, you know, their feetlook really strong, not like
modern feet.
So, part of the part and thisis what happens when you read
(09:28):
what Dean Karnazes or ChrisMcDougal or people have to say,
it starts, you know, wheelsturning in your head and then
you start to notice things andthen possibly you realize you're
out on a frontier, somewherethat maybe you didn't even
realize was out there.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
There's something I read that you said.
You talked about runningbarefoot, being out in nature
barefoot.
It's like the original humanmindfulness, I think, is how you
said it.
How does being barefoot, howdoes it enhance all of that?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Well, when I went through US Army Ranger School a
long time ago, like almost 40years ago, they taught us
mindfulness.
They called it pay attention todetail.
Ranger, going barefoot, youhave to pay attention to where
you stop, because it's super fun, unless you land on a rock or
something like that.
Then it's not so much fun.
(10:18):
So I think and you'll hearpeople, jake, talk about
earthing and grounding and themental calm it produces, and
there are these theories aboutelectrons and ions and I can't
tell you about that stuff.
My theory is that a largeportion of our brain is there to
move us, move our soft feetover rough ground, and when
(10:39):
those parts of the mind areengaged, that's being like our
ancestors were living naked inthe forest and it's you're fully
engaged with what you're doing.
When you shield your feet withshoes, those parts of your mind
they go to sleep.
They don't have anything to do.
They don't actually go to sleep.
They start working on otherproblems, like how much you hate
(11:02):
Trump or Biden, or how yourspouse just pissed you off, or
whatever you just saw on socialmedia, or your friend who said
something that wasn't reallynice, and so you can't do that
really when you have to payattention to every step, so
that's why I call it theoriginal human mindfulness.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
I like that.
It's a good way to look at it,good approach for it.
I've got to hear a few stories.
You've had to have stepped onsomething that's hurt or you've
had to have done something toyour foot.
Any stories, any examples youhave?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Well, I mean, when I first started out, I got a
little piece of glass in my footand I had to go to a clinic and
a nurse pulled it out withtweezers and that cost me $150.
So over the last 10 years,13,900 miles of barefoot.
That's the only medicalexpenses I've had, although
barefoot is part of what I callminimalism and it's about
(11:49):
pushing boundaries withouttechnology to see what you can
do.
So snow and ice, there's limits.
We all have limits.
They might be different and Ican assure you that cold weather
injuries or cold injuries, theyhurt like hell.
I think that's the body's wayof saying don't ever do this
(12:12):
again.
So I have pushed it a littlebit too hard, a little bit too
far on a couple of occasions,but cold nights, but no
permanent damage.
It's just, you know, a littlebit of frost.
Nip is really painful.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Do you have a certain like temperature that you're
like okay, if it's this, I'm notgoing to do it.
If it's this, I will still doit.
Okay, what's your base?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
In the 30s, when it gets wet on rough terrain, that
starts to get less fun, andprobably the upper 20s when it's
dry.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Wow, it's cold.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
But otherwise, the challenge with barefoot it's not
so much physical, it's mental.
It's like I'm a runner and I'mused to going.
You know not, I can't run fastlike Dean Karnazes used to do.
He's a little bit older, we'reall getting old, but I'm used to
a steady pace, steady, rhythmicpace, like in your half
marathon I'm sure you were doing.
(13:01):
Barefoot is a lot more variable.
On smooth roads or sandy trailsor at the track, I can run just
as fast as in shoes, but ongravel, no sir.
So I showed up at a 5K and,unbeknownst to me, they had
(13:21):
changed the course.
It used to run through a littledowntown area and they moved it
out onto a rail trail that wasfreshly paved with gravel, and
so my time was five times slower.
I could barely walk on it and,being stubborn, I just refused
to put on shoes.
I finished last place and itwas over an hour for a 5K.
So that's the challenge withbarefoot it can be very slow.
(13:43):
Shoes are great for protectionagainst sharp objects in
question, or cold, or or cold,or you know other hostile
environments.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
What does it do for you?
Kind of mentally, Like when youcomplete a marathon or a 5k
barefoot.
What does it do for you?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
And this is the.
This is the surprise to me, fora former you know army ranger
and Wall Street guy, to discoverin my later years that I had
become a flower child.
I wouldn't have predicted thisfor you a few years back.
It's so much fun and it'ssimilar to your experience at
the half marathon.
(14:20):
When you go out there and youdo something, you do something
natural, you put out the energyand you're like, at least I got
myself from A to B.
It's empowering hands or yourface, and so to go through life
(14:44):
with all that shielded is sortof boring, and once you unshield
your feet, it's just reallyengaging and you get the sense
wow, I just did three more milesand I'm happy.
I think what my here's my theory, is that mother nature, she
gave us the energy to go out anddo what we needed to do, and
our ancestors had to go throughthe forest and they didn't have
shoes way back when they had togo through the forest and the
(15:06):
desert and the mountains andfind food and their feet would
have hurt but they had to keepgoing.
So Mother Nature gave them joyas a form of energy, which is
the joy of movement throughnature, and we feel that running
or hiking or walking andbarefoot just sort of gives you
that extra layer of information.
(15:27):
So it's so much, and you can'texplain this to anybody in shoes
.
They just stare at you likeyou've lost your mind.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
I'm not saying you've lost your mind, but it is hard
for me, as someone who's neverdone it, it is hard for me to
think about that.
I'm still trying to envision ittendons.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
You know you're changing your geometry ever so
subtly and that's a big deal fora ligament.
But I think most people couldgo barefoot walking or hiking
without a lot of adaptation.
In fact I just led a littleworkshop or a little group hike
just on Sunday.
We did about four miles inHarriman Park in, you know, in
the Hudson Valley in New York,and there were plenty of rocks
and some patches of grass anddirt.
(16:24):
The younger folks just shotahead like it was nothing.
Some of the older, some of usaging dinosaurs, had to work on
balance a little bit on some ofthe slipperier, slippery
sections.
It was just fun and people lookso different going barefoot.
It's a more delicate way ofmoving across the earth.
You pay attention, you'recareful, you move more slowly.
(16:45):
It was so much fun.
So I just I would tell folks,just give it a try and your feet
will tell you.
Like when I first did my firstbarefoot run and this is
probably this is again 10 yearsago I just did a mile and a
quarter and I was self-conscious, you know.
I took my sandals off and hitthem behind a bush and ran
around, was embarrassed and gota couple of scratches and I was
(17:06):
like this is total meh.
But the next morning when Iwoke up, my feet were sort of
tingling and it was clear theywanted more.
They wanted more sensations,more textures, more experience.
And so give it a little.
Try and see what your body andyour feet tell you.
They might tell you don't everdo this again.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Well, I tell you what , though?
The fact that you did it.
Now I'm in my mind, I'm like,okay, I could at least go walk
around the park that's close by.
Just give that a shot.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Or go into your local coffee shop.
You can walk down and then ifpeople ask you what are you
doing, you could say well,there's this crazy guy on my
podcast and he challenged, hethrew out a challenge, so I had
a.
By the way, if you go barefootin the city or in the town, now
you're crossing a differentfrontier, now you're putting
(17:56):
yourself out there and doingsomething that's visibly
different from other people,that's different from the
physical frontier of seeing ifyou can relearn the art of
moving naturally that we nolonger practice generally.
I don't think I've been out inUtah in several years, but I've
noticed that in the Northeastthere's a higher grumpiness
(18:19):
ratio compared to the Southwest.
I think people in Utah would bepretty cool generally, but in
you know, like in Massachusettsand New Hampshire and places
like that in small towns, you do, you might get confronted.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
So this leads me to the question then are you like
when you just go around town andstuff, are you going barefoot
all the time, or are you justreally so?
You're just barefoot, You'rebarefoot, Ken.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, and it started with I mean, I had heard about
people.
Again, I started with barefootrunning as a way to prevent
injury and I got into barefoothiking, thinking that would help
with the natural form whiletaking a break from running,
since I was dealing with runninginjuries.
And then I heard about peoplewho went around barefoot full
time and I thought, huh, that'sinteresting.
(19:05):
A little odd, but I heard abouta challenge and it's called the
Barefoot Autism Challenge and Ithink there was an autism
challenge a few years ago whereyou got to get a dump a bucket
of ice water in your head, If Iremember.
I think that's out to beunpopular.
(19:26):
But the Barefoot AutismChallenge is the idea of a guy
named Tyler Leach who issomebody with autism.
He lives in Iowa and he said,hey, in the autistic community,
barefoot is popular in manycases because of the sensory
input.
It helps folks process theirsurroundings.
It's back to that idea ofearthing and grounding and the
(19:53):
mental calm.
And he said, hey, the challengeis just to go somewhere
barefoot for the experience andto show support for the autistic
community.
So just post a picture onTwitter or Instagram hashtag
Barefoot Autism Challenge.
And I heard that and you knowwhat I heard?
I heard, besides the barefootand the autism part, I heard the
word challenge, and challengesare interesting and this is part
(20:15):
of your theme, Jake.
Challenges put you out theresomewhere and they expose you to
a wild or unmanaged environmentand you might learn something
and you might change.
And so that's how, that's whatwas my introduction to, just you
know, going around town withoutshoes.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Speaking of challenge , any challenges with the whole
no shirt, no shoes, no serviceproblem in cities, okay, and you
know where that came from.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
That came from the hippie days and people in many
cases did not like the hippiesand it's interesting.
In hindsight we could say well,the hippies, you know, they
were right.
Vietnam War was not a good idea, but people were freaked out
about them because they wereback to nature and a lot of
people in our world have lostconnection with nature and are
(21:06):
put off by that.
I was in a Dunkin' Donuts inVermont yes, it was in Vermont
and somebody in there said heyyou can't be in here without
shoes, and so I have a pair ofslippers I carry.
So I was fine, I put them on.
You don't want to get intofights with people.
It's easy to get into fightsbecause nobody likes being told
(21:28):
what to do, but when you putyourself out there it forces you
to engage with people.
You understand you're going tosurprise them in some cases and
you need to develop someprocedures to either make your
case or back off.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
This is amazing.
I love talking to people likeyou because, you know, I have a
kind of a preconceived notion ofwhat I think you'll be like and
what I think we're going totalk about, and I'm like, okay,
barefoot, kenny's out runningbarefoot.
I didn't.
I mean, you're barefoot all thetime, which is amazing.
I didn't even know that beforewe started.
So I love that.
I love the things I discoverabout people.
I think that's cool.
I love that you're doing that.
(22:03):
I think it's pretty awesomethat you're doing that and
you're like you said, youstarted off kind of pragmatic.
It's just, you know, it's hey,so I helped with injury and it's
just become a whole way of lifefor you.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Thank you, jake, but I think this is a common theme
for a lot of folks that I knowthat you're talking to, and I'm
going to go back to JeremyGeorge and he had challenges and
he said I'm going to puttogether.
He put together his ownchallenge, which was 52 bucket
list items in 52 weeks, and hesaid this is my way of taking
(22:36):
charge of my life right now.
I need to do something thatworks for me, because the
conventional wisdom about whatI'm supposed to be doing has
sort of left me high and dry.
I need to take charge.
Put my hands on the wheel, turnthe wheel real sharp, pull up
on the parking brake, do one ofthose emergency 180s and then
(22:59):
peel out in the other direction.
And he, he did that and hechanged as a result.
He learned and he changed.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
The other thing too.
I think it's amazing.
Not only are you just out andabout barefoot, like you said,
you're running marathons, whichis a the last 26 have been
barefoot.
You're doing that sort of thing, you're also bagging peaks peak
bagging, as they say and I knowyou did a challenge.
I think you're also baggingpeaks peak bagging, as they say
and I know you did a challenge.
I think you're still I mean,you're still doing these
challenges.
(23:26):
You've got more challenges tocome, but can we talk about the
grid?
What is the grid?
Where are the CAT skills?
Kind of give me the whole whatthis challenge is.
Again, the word challenge.
You heard the word challengeand you're off.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
So the grid is a certain kind of peak bagging
project and you can do itanywhere where there's a list of
mountains.
Now I'm not sure I would trydoing it in the Himalayas
because whatever the list ofmountains is, would be really
hard.
The Catskills are in New Yorkstate and they're about two
hours north of New York City.
New York's got the Adirondacks,which are a little bit taller.
(24:00):
They're another two hoursfurther north.
The Catskills are not hugemountains.
They're 3,500 to 4,000 feetgenerally.
But the terrain is very rugged,steep, rocky trails, thick
forest.
One of the distinctions of theCatskills is a number of the
peaks don't have official trails, so you have to navigate to the
(24:20):
summit using map and compass orGPS or just paying attention.
But it's hard to see.
In the Catskills the vegetationis very thick in the summer
anyhow.
So in the Catskills there's apeak bagging list that includes
35 mountains and that's a commonchallenge slash goal for a lot
of people.
It's a way to just get outthere and enjoy the mountains,
(24:40):
but do it in a structured formatthat other people have done and
that adds some social meaningto the project.
The grid takes a peak bagginglist to the next level and you
could do it anywhere wherethere's a list.
You want to complete that listin each month of the year.
So for the CAT skills, that's35 high peaks times 12 months is
(25:01):
420 climbs.
Now you don't have to do it inone year, you can take as long
as you like to finish it, andfor most people it ends up being
a multi-year project.
But this is something Idiscovered accidentally at a
point in time in my life whereother things were not going
(25:23):
perfectly, and so I talked about.
You know, I had a corporate joband you know I think a lot of
times we progress in our careerand then we hit sort of a
leveling off place where you'relike gee, to get to the next
level, that's going to be reallyhard, or the people who I'm
competing with are actuallyreally good, and that's a risky
(25:46):
place to be because you can losea lot of energy when you
realize that maybe youridealistic goals for yourself to
be the CEO or the president ofthe United States or whatever
you had imagined maybe theprobability of getting there was
lower than you thought.
So I was.
You know things were slow atwork and so I was like, great,
I'll do more running.
(26:06):
But then I began to injuremyself.
And there's a point if you getgood at running, that means
you're getting good at pushingyourself.
But apparently, as we get old,the platform loses resilience
and so you set yourself up forsome problems.
So both of those things werebeginning to challenge me and I
sat around thinking to myselfthis is what Henry David Thoreau
(26:30):
meant when he wrote that themajority of men and of course
this is 19th century, so hemeant the majority of people,
the majority of people livelives of quiet desperation.
The majority of people livelives of quiet desperation.
And I was like, hey, thatsounds like me and that had not
been my attitude up to thispoint.
So I was, you know, wondering,because before that I had done
(26:52):
marathons and ultras and I haddone some record setting runs.
I had set a record on the longpath, I had set a record for
running the Badwater Double, andthose were hugely empowering
and thrilling adventures.
And now I was sort of stuck.
That's when I heard about thegrid and I thought what a
perfect project, because I don'thave to race, I can take my
(27:13):
time, I can scratch off thepeaks as I can get to them on
the weekends or taking vacationtime and I can give myself a
multi-year runway to achieve ameaningful goal.
So that project immediatelytook over my life and became the
most important thing that I wasdoing, and so I threw myself
(27:35):
into the project.
I've got a book coming out inthe fall on this and I think you
might say there's possibly alittle bit of an obsessive
undertone to it, but this becamethe most important project in
my life and I think it was likeJeremy's 52 bucket list.
It was my chance to takecontrol of my life and achieve a
(28:00):
goal that was meaningful to me,and it ended up being a project
where I really learned a lotabout myself and changed.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Catskills itself is about 35 mountains peaks, so to
speak.
How long did it take you to dothe 420?
Are you still doing it?
Speaker 2 (28:17):
When I discovered the grid which was entirely
coincidental I actually ran intosomebody and he had a backpack
with a little banner pinned toit.
It said 35 times 12 equals 420.
And I was like, what does thatmean?
And he explained it to me and Ididn't really understand.
And then a few months later Iran into somebody else on the
(28:39):
trail randomly and theymentioned that they had just
finished the grid for January.
And I was like I've heard aboutit.
What is this crazy project?
How does it work?
And they explained it and Ifinally got it.
But when I discovered the gridI had done so much hiking and
running already in the Catskillsthat I had a head start.
So I was able to go backthrough my training logs and
find 120 or so peaks I'd alreadyclimbed and could find the
(29:01):
dates.
So I only had 300 to go.
So that took me two years to dothat 300.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
I would imagine, because I'm just imagining this
and obviously I've never beenthere so I don't know really
what it's like.
But you said the summer it'sthick with vegetation, other
times of the year it's different, and I guess you're doing this
through different times of theyear.
Yeah, could you tell?
Like I mean, it's probably likea whole different experience
doing a peak in winter versussummer.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Well, you know and look, there are places like New
Hampshire that have seriouslydangerous winters.
Right, the Catskills isn't thatbad, but it's a real winter up
there.
You know, also, often when youtake on these projects you tend
to whether consciously orunconsciously you tend to do the
easy stuff first and you end upin.
(29:49):
So I got into my second yearand I was like, holy crap, I
have 100 winter peaks left to doJanuary, february, march, first
half of April, and thenNovember and December.
The winter can be easy or itcan be difficult, but fresh snow
requiring snowshoes.
Most of the time it's not thisbad, but there were a couple of
times I had to get out there.
And when you're on a schedule toget this done like a normal
person would say, fine, it's notgreat conditions, I'll just
(30:11):
finish the grid a year later.
But if you're in a hurry to dosomething and why would you be
in a hurry?
Because it's meaningful to youand you want to get it done,
just like you want to get to theend of the half marathon, right
?
You don't want to.
You want to get to the end,right?
So then you have to dragyourself out.
So the toughest times for me waswhen there was fresh, deep snow
(30:32):
, so like two, three feet offresh snow, and suddenly you're
going, at best, one mile an hourand then you go uphill and it's
like no, it's two hours to goone mile.
I think my slowest hike wasthree hours to go one mile.
And the snow.
If the sun comes out and thesnow starts to get soft and
(30:53):
heavy, then you've got like 10pounds on each foot and you're
carrying a big pack because youneed more gear and so forth.
There's nothing that a thousandmillion other hikers haven't
contended with.
But for me that was thechallenging part of the project
and that's what made it intensewas the need to get out there,
(31:14):
whether conditions were good orbad.
And there's subtle things too,jake, like I don't know about
you, I love the sun and in thesun I feel energetic, and when
the fog comes curling inoverhead, you know it sucks out
a little bit of my energy, andso the winters were also
difficult.
Because of you know, you lostthe sparkle of spring and summer
(31:36):
and the colors of fall.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
And I'm an early morning person, like during the
week, and so I usually do my saymy long runs for the weekend,
and so then it's light outsideand so I feel so much better
than when I'm running.
It's pitch black out and I'mwearing a headlamp and it's just
a different, different vibe.
So I totally, totally get that.
What made you decide I want towrite a book about this?
(32:00):
Did you think about that beforeyou started it, or was it while
you're doing it?
What made you want to do that?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
I enjoy writing.
I think when we haveexperiences that are intense, I
think most of us feel an impulseto share that with others, and
I think you were talking withJeremy about this, and there's a
great quote from MarshallUlrich, who is a legendary ultra
runner and mountaineer.
(32:26):
He's done Everest, as well asthe Badwater Race, multiple,
multiple times, and he said ifyou're just going out to do peak
bagging or other kinds ofbucket lists, if you're just
going out to brag, that's vulgar.
But if you're going out tolearn and admire and share, that
can be noble.
And so, part of my thinking, Iknew I was going to write up
(32:48):
something about this because tome part of what made this
project so thrilling was thevariety and the contrast.
And 35 mountains are alldifferent, plus they're
different routes up them, plusthey change with each point of
the year and plus you and I arealways changing.
(33:08):
Some days we're feeling greatand some days we're dragging ass
.
And so I really felt like the420 climbs were 420 meaningful
experiences in just thebrilliance of that and the joy
of being out in a naturalenvironment.
I just wanted to share that, ifit would resonate with anybody
(33:29):
at all.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
What's the official name of the book?
Speaker 2 (33:31):
The official name is Chasing the Grid.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Chasing the Grid.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
And it is available for pre-order on Amazon and it
comes out in September.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Excellent, very good, okay.
So, yeah, everyone, I'll putsome links too so everyone can
get to your website or whateverto do that.
So, chasing the grid, I thinkthere was a subheading too that
talks some about the spiritualside of it.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
That's right, and the subtitle is an ultra runners
physical and spiritual pursuitof the ultimate mountain
challenge.
By the way, the publisher, atfirst they were like let's call
it conquering the grid and I waslike no, no, no, no, no, no, no
.
Pacing is fine.
You don't conquer the mountains, you learn from them.
But the spiritual part, thatwas sort of a that has been an
(34:18):
interest of mine since I canremember and it's again just
pragmatic.
You know, here I am and whereare the levers that I pull to
operate myself.
So in the book I talk about notjust climbing this mountain and
then that mountain, but alsosort of what I learned.
There's a great tradition inAmerica called the
(34:39):
transcendentalist tradition.
It's Thoreau and Emerson andWalt Whitman and John Muir, and
we learn about these guys inhigh school and then forget them
and move on to our high techdigital ecosystem that we
inhabit now, and hopefully AIwon't take over.
But the more I think about thisworld and how super high tech
we've become, the more I go backto know strength and joy and
(35:06):
creativity come from nature, notfrom technology, and agency too
.
And so as I went out into themountains and hopefully this is
interesting to the reader, Ibegan to have some weird
experiences, just in the sensethat, spending so much time out
there in the mountains, I beganto, if you will, rediscover the
(35:30):
more original way of relating toour environment In the modern
world.
It's all about I, I, I, I, I,I'm this, I'm that, I have this
label and I can do that.
I can dress myself up as arunner or a barefoot person or a
worker or whatever.
When you're out in themountains, that starts to fade
(35:51):
and then you start to realize,hey, I'm not really that much
different from the other livingcreatures out here have a brain,
but we're both people in thesense that we're just trying to
survive and grow and reproduce.
Maybe John Muir used to calltrees people and plants people
(36:13):
and butterflies people.
Everything was a person to him.
I think we feel we still havetree huggers and people like
that, and so that, to me, ispart of the spiritual element of
this.
It's trying to get disengagedfrom the modern world and
rediscover, in a sense, who wereally are.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
I want to ask about all of these ascents that you've
had, all these climbs, thesemountains 420, just in the
Catskills I'm sure you've baggedmore than that just around the
country.
Colorado's got some nice-sizedmountains, things like that.
I think you've been in Colorado.
Is there any particular climbor mountain that stuck out to
(36:51):
you for whatever reason?
Either it was difficult ormaybe it was the beauty of it.
Whatever you think, is there aparticular one that stood out to
you?
Speaker 2 (36:59):
My current project is to climb 1,000 mountains
barefoot before I'm too old todo so.
So it's a project that'sspecifically designed to force
me to manage myself gracefullythrough the aging process.
Mount Albert is 14,444 orsomething like that in Colorado.
That was actually astraightforward climb.
(37:20):
It's 4,000 feet up but I didn'thave any particular problems.
And to my astonishment, on theway down I met another barefoot
hiker, a young man named I thinkit was Mike from Boulder.
But Katahdin was difficult inMaine and I approached Katahdin
from the knife edge and theknife edge it's a very narrow, I
(37:41):
guess it's called an arrette.
It's not really an arrettetechnically but it's a very
narrow sort of knife edge ridgebetween, I forget, the mountain
to the south and then the peakand the trail sort of creeps
along the crest and you knowyou're climbing over rocks and
boulders and it's not dangerousper se but it's not really a
trail and barefoot you don'twant to just go lunging, jumping
(38:05):
on sharp rocks.
So I did a lot of that,crawling and sliding on my butt
and it was very slow.
So that sticks out in my memoryas being difficult.
But I'm at 521.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Okay, that was going to be.
My question is where you're atwith the whole thousand.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
I'll be out in Utah at some point.
I'm heading out to Californiain a few weeks.
You know, one peak that standsout during the grid, which I did
barefoot, is Wyndham, and Iwent up there with my dog.
At the time, odie, I had a verystrange objective.
I said I'd been reading WaltWhitman and I've been reading
Walt Whitman's views on the selfand time, and I said, well,
(38:46):
we'll go up Windham, and ofcourse Whitman's tome of poetry
is called Leaves of Grass.
So I said, well, climb Windham,we'll stop at the top and think
a little bit about Whitman'spoetry.
One of the things I had beendoing was observing some of the
different plants in theCatskills and I realized that I
hadn't learned to identify anyof the grasses, and the path to
(39:08):
Wyndham is sort of grassy inplaces.
So I was like, cool, we'llstudy the grass.
So that's one of the chaptersin the book.
Because we got to the top andas a runner I'm always used to
being in motion, and so the veryact of stopping is difficult
for me, unless I'm really tiredout or something, and even then
the clock is always ticking.
So it was just an interestingexperience to sit at the top for
(39:31):
a while, and Odie, you know, isthe same as me.
He likes to be on the move, butas he got a little bit older,
on this climb he took a nap andI stood a bee sitting on a
meadowsweet.
Bush and a private jet flewoverhead and then out in the
distance some gliders werecircling and then a sparrow flew
(39:55):
past and a few seconds later acouple of vultures flew past
after it, perhaps.
So it was a special experience,and Whitman is very clear about
his views.
We think of time as rushingpast, but I think he thinks of
time more as a permanent kind ofdirection, complementary to
distance, the way we learn inphysics.
John Muir had a comment in oneof his diary entries when he was
(40:19):
out in the California Mountains.
He talked about hiking up intothe mountains and then running
back to camp in the moonlightand it was such a thrilling
experience.
He said so ends a day that willnever end.
And I read that to myself and Iwas like well, how does a day
never end?
And what he's saying is thatthe experience is permanent and
(40:41):
the experience changes you andyou and I and others.
We change other people.
So the experience is permanenteven if we're not.
So that kind of thinking abouttime was one of the things I
came away from the grid projectwith maybe a little bit of a
different perspective.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
I appreciate your perspective on all this.
This has been eye-opening to me.
What about some of the setbacks?
What are some of the setbacksyou faced?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
During the grid, the setbacks were you know the
challenges like that deep snow,right?
So there was nothing radicalabout the setbacks, it's just
the act of dealing with them.
I think part of this what Icall the spiritual journey.
I think of it as a lot aboutbeing, about agency.
I'm going to take over my life,I'm going to make my decisions
(41:23):
and I can make decisions to helpother people because I like
other people.
But I'm going to make mydecisions and I can make
decisions to help other peoplebecause I like other people.
But I'm going to make thosedecisions instead of being
gaslit or bullied into thinkingthe right things or dressing the
right way.
So part of the spiritualdevelopment, I think, is just
getting stronger so that we canmanage ourselves.
And how do you get stronger?
(41:45):
Well, if you're a weightlifter,you go to the gym and you lift
weights.
If you're a runner, you do ahalf marathon or whatever you
want.
And I think it's just thatpractice of making an effort to
push yourself into a zone ofdiscomfort and manage yourself
in that zone and you come out ofit and you're like okay.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
So there were some challenges.
One of the things I mentioned.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
In some cases you've got to navigate in the Cascades
off trail and in some casesthere are what's called relic
boreal forests, which consistsof thickets of fern spruce trees
like little Christmas trees,but Thoreau called them devil
trees because their branchesinterlocked like this and you
have to sort of slide throughthem.
Sometimes they all fall down inpiles and you have to.
(42:30):
Hopefully you were payingattention and you saw the
deadfall and you aim around it,but sometimes you don't and then
you're crawling through thedeadfall while the stuff is
trying to move the stuff out ofyour face.
That can get frustrating.
Again, it's like the snow.
You're a runner, you're used tomoving quickly and now you're
looking at your watch and you'renot even going one mile an hour
and I would get angry, I wouldget frustrated and part of me.
(42:52):
There's a great Emerson quotelose the military hurry.
And of course, having been aranger for a short period of
time, corporate America is thesame as the army it's.
You've got a mission, get yourmission done, accountability,
performance, et cetera.
But he said lose the militaryhurry, adopt the pace of nature.
(43:16):
Her secret is patience and partof me knew that after years of
being over caffeinated andrushing around mindlessly.
I needed to learn how to moveslowly and actually the stunning
thing is, moving slowly, Ifound, was mentally much more
difficult than putting out anall out effort and running
quickly.
So those were challenges, thosewere challenges, and so the 420
peaks was part of how I tookmyself.
(43:38):
Offline.
I subjected myself to thechallenges of being tired or the
trees, or rain or snow orwhatever.
It was just worked on myselfand I think at one point in the
book I say if you drag yourselfback and forth across rugged
terrain long enough, it mightsmooth off some of the rough
(43:58):
edges of your personality.
So that's it, just practice it.
Being a person and movingyourself is just how we try to
get better.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
I love it.
I love all just the lifelessons that you learn as you,
you know, pick up the barefootpart and then you're like let me
, you know, bag these peaks.
Let me do the cat skills, thegrid Let me get out there and do
the grid.
You mentioned the thousand.
You're working towards athousand.
You're at 520.
What's kind of?
Do you have a set date in mindor are you just going to kind of
(44:27):
take your time, get into that?
Do you have any otherchallenges?
Speaker 2 (44:31):
you're working on as well, because I know challenge
is a big thing for you.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think of these in someways like pilgrimages, and I was
thinking that listening toJeremy talking about his bucket
list.
You know it's a chance to takeyourself offline and work on
yourself and learn, challengeyourself and learn.
And for some people who havesuper high power jobs and
they're changing the world, theyjust need to do that because
(44:55):
they're having such a big impact.
But I think many of us benefitfrom taking a break from the
nine to five or whatever theeight to six or whatever it is
and doing different things tolearn, because it's a shame we
only have one life.
So I was just thinking theother day it might be time to do
something different.
And the last thing I'm going todo is commit myself on your
(45:15):
podcast, because if I saysomething on your podcast you
heard it here first everybodybut the Thousand Mountains is
meant to be a multi-year project.
Right, I'm also doing the 50marathons in 50 states, but
that's a terrible projectbecause it's just endless
logistics and travel and I'm at11, I think, or 12.
(45:36):
So I'm actually potentially duefor something, but I'm also
looking at the opportunitiesjust to make a difference.
So I'm involved with anot-for-profit that's important
to me.
We're going through some changeat work and I'm trying to think
how can I make a difference here?
My alma mater.
(45:58):
I went to a school and thecurrent administration is
talking about changing the taxrules and there's challenges.
I'm like they're not facing upthe challenges.
They're not taking the actionthat I would like to see them
take.
Could I somehow get through tothem and help them think this
through?
Probably not.
But so I think about otherthings.
(46:18):
And you know the great thing,these projects out in nature.
They're like a baseline.
I've made some decisions likenot to take maybe, a bigger job
because it would not give meenough time to do my running and
hiking.
I would take a job or dosomething else if I felt it
would be better for the worldand better for me than another
(46:40):
mountain.
So hopefully I put myself in aposition where I can flex in
different directions.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
This has been fascinating.
I've really enjoyed ourconversation, getting to know
you and who you are.
It's been amazing.
There's one question I alwayslike to ask, because I ask on
every show, but for you, for you, ken, what does adventure mean
to you?
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Yeah, and I think that's a it's such a great
question, jake.
And and I think that's a it'ssuch a great question, jake and
I have been on some adventuresin life, and not just in the
mountains, at work and in otherplaces.
I think an adventure issomething where you have a clear
mission, you have a clearobjective.
It could be like Bilbo and thedwarves going after smog's gold,
(47:20):
right, but there's somethingyou're setting out to do with
you.
You have a crystal clearunderstanding of what the
objective is and there's risk.
There's risk you might not besuccessful and there might be
people out there trying to work,dragons trying to to stop you.
And I think the adventure tendsto leave the community, the
(47:43):
community of people who areworking and are productive and
are raising families and doingthe normal things in life, and
you're saying I'm going to leavethat behind and take a risk and
do something different becauseit might matter, it might be
important enough to take thatrisk, or you're impatient and
you want the challenge.
You're not suited to be justsomebody who follows the normal
(48:08):
path.
So those are the ingredients inmy mind.
Adventures can be thrilling andyou can win great prizes, but
you can also lose, so I knowI've done things that haven't
worked out well, and this can bevery painful, besides the lost
time and energy.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Ken, thank you so much for joining me today and
sharing who you are and thewhole idea.
I'm going to be taking off myshoes here a little more, I
think, after this conversation.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
And I'll leave that as a challenge to all your
listeners, at the risk of themjust deciding to turn off.
But you know, take a few stepssomewhere and then ask your feet
what they think it would be.
Just I'd be really curious toto hear what you, what you find
out.
I would be, and that's thething I like to say about
barefoot.
Barefoot turns every walk orhike or run into an adventure.
(48:57):
You don't necessarily know whatyou're going to encounter and
you have to pay attention.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
That is a great point .
I love it.
Ken encounter and you have topay attention.
That is a great point.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
I love it.
Ken, thank you so much forcoming on Journey with Jake.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
You're so welcome, jake.
Thank you so much for theinvitation.
What an inspiring andthought-provoking conversation
with Ken Posner.
From running barefoot totackling the grid, ken's story
is a powerful reminder thatadventure isn't just about the
miles, it's about mindset,simplicity and find a deeper
meaning in the journey.
Thank you, ken.
If you want to follow alongwith Ken, be sure to check him
out on Instagram at long brownpath that's long underscore
(49:39):
brown, underscore path and visithis website, barefootkencom.
You can also pre-order hisupcoming book Chasing the Grid
and Ultra Runners Physical andSpiritual Journey in the Purs
pursuit of the ultimate mountainchallenge.
I highly recommend it.
I'm looking forward to gettingmy copy.
Thanks for tuning into Journeywith Jake.
If Ken's story inspired you, dome a favor and share this
episode with a friend or leave aquick rating or review.
It really helps others findthese incredible stories.
(50:00):
We've got another great episodecoming your way next week with
Cody Sudmeier, the founder ofSpur Experiences.
We'll be talking all about thepower of choosing experiences
over things and how that mindsetcan lead to a more meaningful
life.
And, as always, remember it'snot always about the destination
as it is about the journey.
Take care everybody.
Thank you.
What drives someone to ditch their shoes and run
barefoot through mountains,trails and even snow.
Ken Posner does just that andhe's tackled the grid, climbing
all 35 Catskill Peaks everymonth for a year.
We dive into his extremeendurance, barefoot mindset in
his upcoming book.
Let's jump in with Ken Posner.
(00:20):
Welcome to Journey with Jake.
This is a podcast aboutadventure and how, through our
adventures, we can overcome thechallenges of life that come our
way.
While I expect you will learnsome things about different
adventures, this show willentertain you.
Each episode will feature adifferent guest or guests, as
they share experiences andstories from the different
adventures they have been on.
Not only will you beentertained, but you will also
(00:42):
hear the failures and trialseach guest faces and what they
have done or are doing toovercome the hardships that come
their way.
My goal is to take each of uson a journey through the
experiences of my guests, withthe hope that you'll be
entertained and inspired toovercome your day-to-day
challenges.
After all, it's not all aboutthe destination, as it is about
(01:12):
the journey.
Welcome to Journey with Jake.
This show is all about peoplewho chase adventure, push limits
and live life with purpose.
Be sure to follow me onInstagram at
journeywithjakepodcast.
And, don't forget, you can alsocatch full episodes on YouTube.
This podcast is proud to bepart of the PodMatch Podcast
(01:35):
Network, connecting podcasterswith incredible guests from
around the world.
Check out podmatchcom forwardslash network.
Today's guest, ken Posner, is abarefoot endurance runner who's
completed the grid, climbing all35 Catskill peaks every month
for a year.
Beyond the physical feat, kenshares powerful lessons on
simplicity, mindset and pushingyour limits.
(01:57):
I walked away from thisconversation with a new
perspective on how we movethrough life, literally and
figuratively.
If you enjoyed this episode,check out episode 41 with ultra
marathon legend Dean Karnazesfor even more inspiration from
the world of extreme endurance.
Let's get to my conversationwith Ken Posner.
This is fun.
I've got barefoot Ken with metoday.
(02:19):
Ken, welcome to Journey withJake.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Hey, jake, I'm just super excited to be here.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
I said Barefoot.
I know that's not your officialname, I know it's Ken Posner,
but if you don't mind, give us alittle background on who you
are, and then we're going todive into this whole why we're
even talking bare feet to beginwith.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
So yeah, tell me a little background of where
you're from, all that good stuffno-transcript got back on my
(03:06):
feet and got a corporate job,which is what I continue to do
to this day, as we'll talk aboutJake over the years.
To balance the intensity ofwork, the demands,
competitiveness, I got into alittle bit of running and that
became trail running and thenultra marathons and then peak
(03:26):
bagging and through hiking.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
That's where our story kicks off, I love it and I
love it because I've had a fewultra runners on the show.
I've had someone who likes tobag peaks, as you say, mountain
climb.
I've had some through hikers,some trail hikers.
You've kind of done it all,which I think is fantastic, and
then you're doing it barefoot aswell, which we'll get into in
just a minute.
For you getting into that whole, you know, picking up running,
(03:51):
doing that sort of thingsomething that you kind of did
as a kid, or did you just kindof pick it up later?
Was it the whole stress of thejobs and stuff?
You're like, hey, let me getout and get some exercise.
What was it about running andgetting outdoors?
What was it about running andgetting outdoors?
That?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
type of thing that led you to that.
Well, you know, I tried to dosome running as a kid but I had
chronic shin splints so Icouldn't really do very much at
all, and it was only.
I got, obviously, in the army.
I did some running, I put upwith the problem and just gutted
it out.
It was later in my forties.
I saw colleagues at workbeginning to fall by the wayside
.
My boss had a mild heart attackand retired early and I got to
(04:29):
take over his portfolio and Iwas like, well, look, I'm
advancing in my career.
But there was sort of a patternthere.
And then it happened again witha colleague who got sick and
left, and so I realized in my40s that I was going to need to
invest in myself if I was goingto make it to the long term.
Invest in myself if I was goingto make it to the long term.
So entirely pragmatic at first.
But the thing about loving issorry.
(04:55):
The thing about running is thatI loved it so much that once I
got into it for pragmaticreasons, it began to take over
my life.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
We're just going to dive into it early here, because
I mean I could go a lot moreabout this whole running thing,
just because it's amazing.
First of all, kudos, those ofyou guys who run trails, who
ultra run incredible.
And again I've had a few.
Um, I don't know if you knowDean, who Dean Karnazes is.
He was on the show.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Oh, sure, sure, and he's a hero of mine and I read
his book, the ultra marathon man, I was like.
And he had a corporate crisis,didn't he?
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Correct.
Yeah, same same type of thing.
I've seen a similaritiesbetween a lot of these ultra
runners and kind of that's.
You know, it seems kind of likethere's some sort of it's not
necessarily a crisis, butthere's something that pushes
them towards, towards doing this.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
And I feel like you have this feeling that maybe
there's something not quiteright with the world and the
idea bothers you like theproverbial splinter in the back
of your mind.
That can happen, and I listenedto your excellent episode with
Jeremy George and he had aperiod of challenge.
He had a number of challengesand it led him just to
(05:58):
re-examine where he was going inlife.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
And you've done a lot .
I looked at some of your stats.
I think it's 100 plus marathons.
You've done a lot.
Where did the barefoot comeabout?
When did you decide, okay, I'mgoing to start running barefoot,
or was it hiking barefoot?
How did the whole barefootthing come about?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Well, you'll find that I'm very impressionable,
because Dean Karnasas was partof the reason I got into ultra
running.
The most popular running bookof all time is Chris McDougall's
Born to Run, in which headvocates for barefoot running
as a way to restore natural gaitand alignment.
And his argument, his theory,is that shoes are great for what
(06:36):
they do, but they canpredispose people to injury
because they change your gaitever so much.
So apparently I'm the onlyperson who didn't get the memo,
and the memo is hey, it's justan idea, it's just a metaphor,
it's about seeking the primalactivities that we attribute to
(06:56):
our ancestors, but you're notsupposed to actually do it.
I didn't get that memo, so Ibegan to experiment with it, and
again only for pragmaticreasons, because I was guess
what?
Starting to have injuries and Iwas like I better give this a
try before I run myself topieces, and the surprise was how
much fun it was, and so, as Istarted doing it, I lost
(07:17):
interest in shoes.
So, just to be clear, the 100,I think it's 116 marathons and
ultras, most of those were inshoes.
It's only the last 26 that havebeen verified.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
The last 26, though that's pretty impressive.
I got to tell you so.
Last fall it's November I ranin a half marathon down in
southern Utah in a little towncalled St George.
It's called the Snow CanyonHalf Marathon, Beautiful canyon
that you run through down there,Just gorgeous.
And I'm cruising along and I'mprobably about four or five
(07:49):
miles in right in the heart ofthe canyon, Just beautiful.
People are passing me, I'mpassing people.
There's thousands of runners inthis thing and sure enough,
someone goes flying by mebarefoot and I was just like
shocked.
Some people next to me startedclapping and cheering for him
and they were just like and herehe goes, just running barefoot.
So to me it's just from theoutside looking in.
(08:11):
It's amazing that you do that,because it's hard to imagine.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
That happened to be at the Boston Marathon twice and
at the New York City Marathon.
Alex Ramsey, I think, is theguy and he's a very accomplished
barefoot and sandal runner.
I think it was Alex, and ofcourse I was running in
minimalist shoes.
So I was like, hey, that's socool, but you know I'm wearing
minimalist shoes.
But he was already past me Atthe Boston Marathon.
I saw this guy running and youknow I was trying to set a
(08:40):
personal best, so I was inracing mode.
It's set a personal best.
So I was in racing modes, like,and he just ran past me and he
was smiling and then he took outa little camera and took some
pictures and ran on.
But here's the weird thing uh,jake, after reading Chris
McDougall's book this is gonnasound weird I started noticing
people's feet a little bit more.
I was in Central Park and a manand his daughter ran past
(09:05):
barefoot and I was like, wow,that looks so natural.
I was in the MetropolitanMuseum of Art with some family
and looking at the ancient Greekand ancient Roman statues and I
thought, you know, their feetlook really strong, not like
modern feet.
So, part of the part and thisis what happens when you read
(09:28):
what Dean Karnazes or ChrisMcDougal or people have to say,
it starts, you know, wheelsturning in your head and then
you start to notice things andthen possibly you realize you're
out on a frontier, somewherethat maybe you didn't even
realize was out there.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
There's something I read that you said.
You talked about runningbarefoot, being out in nature
barefoot.
It's like the original humanmindfulness, I think, is how you
said it.
How does being barefoot, howdoes it enhance all of that?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Well, when I went through US Army Ranger School a
long time ago, like almost 40years ago, they taught us
mindfulness.
They called it pay attention todetail.
Ranger, going barefoot, youhave to pay attention to where
you stop, because it's super fun, unless you land on a rock or
something like that.
Then it's not so much fun.
(10:18):
So I think and you'll hearpeople, jake, talk about
earthing and grounding and themental calm it produces, and
there are these theories aboutelectrons and ions and I can't
tell you about that stuff.
My theory is that a largeportion of our brain is there to
move us, move our soft feetover rough ground, and when
(10:39):
those parts of the mind areengaged, that's being like our
ancestors were living naked inthe forest and it's you're fully
engaged with what you're doing.
When you shield your feet withshoes, those parts of your mind
they go to sleep.
They don't have anything to do.
They don't actually go to sleep.
They start working on otherproblems, like how much you hate
(11:02):
Trump or Biden, or how yourspouse just pissed you off, or
whatever you just saw on socialmedia, or your friend who said
something that wasn't reallynice, and so you can't do that
really when you have to payattention to every step, so
that's why I call it theoriginal human mindfulness.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
I like that.
It's a good way to look at it,good approach for it.
I've got to hear a few stories.
You've had to have stepped onsomething that's hurt or you've
had to have done something toyour foot.
Any stories, any examples youhave?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Well, I mean, when I first started out, I got a
little piece of glass in my footand I had to go to a clinic and
a nurse pulled it out withtweezers and that cost me $150.
So over the last 10 years,13,900 miles of barefoot.
That's the only medicalexpenses I've had, although
barefoot is part of what I callminimalism and it's about
(11:49):
pushing boundaries withouttechnology to see what you can
do.
So snow and ice, there's limits.
We all have limits.
They might be different and Ican assure you that cold weather
injuries or cold injuries, theyhurt like hell.
I think that's the body's wayof saying don't ever do this
(12:12):
again.
So I have pushed it a littlebit too hard, a little bit too
far on a couple of occasions,but cold nights, but no
permanent damage.
It's just, you know, a littlebit of frost.
Nip is really painful.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Do you have a certain like temperature that you're
like okay, if it's this, I'm notgoing to do it.
If it's this, I will still doit.
Okay, what's your base?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
In the 30s, when it gets wet on rough terrain, that
starts to get less fun, andprobably the upper 20s when it's
dry.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Wow, it's cold.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
But otherwise, the challenge with barefoot it's not
so much physical, it's mental.
It's like I'm a runner and I'mused to going.
You know not, I can't run fastlike Dean Karnazes used to do.
He's a little bit older, we'reall getting old, but I'm used to
a steady pace, steady, rhythmicpace, like in your half
marathon I'm sure you were doing.
(13:01):
Barefoot is a lot more variable.
On smooth roads or sandy trailsor at the track, I can run just
as fast as in shoes, but ongravel, no sir.
So I showed up at a 5K and,unbeknownst to me, they had
(13:21):
changed the course.
It used to run through a littledowntown area and they moved it
out onto a rail trail that wasfreshly paved with gravel, and
so my time was five times slower.
I could barely walk on it and,being stubborn, I just refused
to put on shoes.
I finished last place and itwas over an hour for a 5K.
So that's the challenge withbarefoot it can be very slow.
(13:43):
Shoes are great for protectionagainst sharp objects in
question, or cold, or or cold,or you know other hostile
environments.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
What does it do for you?
Kind of mentally, Like when youcomplete a marathon or a 5k
barefoot.
What does it do for you?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
And this is the.
This is the surprise to me, fora former you know army ranger
and Wall Street guy, to discoverin my later years that I had
become a flower child.
I wouldn't have predicted thisfor you a few years back.
It's so much fun and it'ssimilar to your experience at
the half marathon.
(14:20):
When you go out there and youdo something, you do something
natural, you put out the energyand you're like, at least I got
myself from A to B.
It's empowering hands or yourface, and so to go through life
(14:44):
with all that shielded is sortof boring, and once you unshield
your feet, it's just reallyengaging and you get the sense
wow, I just did three more milesand I'm happy.
I think what my here's my theory, is that mother nature, she
gave us the energy to go out anddo what we needed to do, and
our ancestors had to go throughthe forest and they didn't have
shoes way back when they had togo through the forest and the
(15:06):
desert and the mountains andfind food and their feet would
have hurt but they had to keepgoing.
So Mother Nature gave them joyas a form of energy, which is
the joy of movement throughnature, and we feel that running
or hiking or walking andbarefoot just sort of gives you
that extra layer of information.
(15:27):
So it's so much, and you can'texplain this to anybody in shoes
.
They just stare at you likeyou've lost your mind.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
I'm not saying you've lost your mind, but it is hard
for me, as someone who's neverdone it, it is hard for me to
think about that.
I'm still trying to envision ittendons.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
You know you're changing your geometry ever so
subtly and that's a big deal fora ligament.
But I think most people couldgo barefoot walking or hiking
without a lot of adaptation.
In fact I just led a littleworkshop or a little group hike
just on Sunday.
We did about four miles inHarriman Park in, you know, in
the Hudson Valley in New York,and there were plenty of rocks
and some patches of grass anddirt.
(16:24):
The younger folks just shotahead like it was nothing.
Some of the older, some of usaging dinosaurs, had to work on
balance a little bit on some ofthe slipperier, slippery
sections.
It was just fun and people lookso different going barefoot.
It's a more delicate way ofmoving across the earth.
You pay attention, you'recareful, you move more slowly.
(16:45):
It was so much fun.
So I just I would tell folks,just give it a try and your feet
will tell you.
Like when I first did my firstbarefoot run and this is
probably this is again 10 yearsago I just did a mile and a
quarter and I was self-conscious, you know.
I took my sandals off and hitthem behind a bush and ran
around, was embarrassed and gota couple of scratches and I was
(17:06):
like this is total meh.
But the next morning when Iwoke up, my feet were sort of
tingling and it was clear theywanted more.
They wanted more sensations,more textures, more experience.
And so give it a little.
Try and see what your body andyour feet tell you.
They might tell you don't everdo this again.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Well, I tell you what , though?
The fact that you did it.
Now I'm in my mind, I'm like,okay, I could at least go walk
around the park that's close by.
Just give that a shot.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Or go into your local coffee shop.
You can walk down and then ifpeople ask you what are you
doing, you could say well,there's this crazy guy on my
podcast and he challenged, hethrew out a challenge, so I had
a.
By the way, if you go barefootin the city or in the town, now
you're crossing a differentfrontier, now you're putting
(17:56):
yourself out there and doingsomething that's visibly
different from other people,that's different from the
physical frontier of seeing ifyou can relearn the art of
moving naturally that we nolonger practice generally.
I don't think I've been out inUtah in several years, but I've
noticed that in the Northeastthere's a higher grumpiness
(18:19):
ratio compared to the Southwest.
I think people in Utah would bepretty cool generally, but in
you know, like in Massachusettsand New Hampshire and places
like that in small towns, you do, you might get confronted.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
So this leads me to the question then are you like
when you just go around town andstuff, are you going barefoot
all the time, or are you justreally so?
You're just barefoot, You'rebarefoot, Ken.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, and it started with I mean, I had heard about
people.
Again, I started with barefootrunning as a way to prevent
injury and I got into barefoothiking, thinking that would help
with the natural form whiletaking a break from running,
since I was dealing with runninginjuries.
And then I heard about peoplewho went around barefoot full
time and I thought, huh, that'sinteresting.
(19:05):
A little odd, but I heard abouta challenge and it's called the
Barefoot Autism Challenge and Ithink there was an autism
challenge a few years ago whereyou got to get a dump a bucket
of ice water in your head, If Iremember.
I think that's out to beunpopular.
(19:26):
But the Barefoot AutismChallenge is the idea of a guy
named Tyler Leach who issomebody with autism.
He lives in Iowa and he said,hey, in the autistic community,
barefoot is popular in manycases because of the sensory
input.
It helps folks process theirsurroundings.
It's back to that idea ofearthing and grounding and the
(19:53):
mental calm.
And he said, hey, the challengeis just to go somewhere
barefoot for the experience andto show support for the autistic
community.
So just post a picture onTwitter or Instagram hashtag
Barefoot Autism Challenge.
And I heard that and you knowwhat I heard?
I heard, besides the barefootand the autism part, I heard the
word challenge, and challengesare interesting and this is part
(20:15):
of your theme, Jake.
Challenges put you out theresomewhere and they expose you to
a wild or unmanaged environmentand you might learn something
and you might change.
And so that's how, that's whatwas my introduction to, just you
know, going around town withoutshoes.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Speaking of challenge , any challenges with the whole
no shirt, no shoes, no serviceproblem in cities, okay, and you
know where that came from.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
That came from the hippie days and people in many
cases did not like the hippiesand it's interesting.
In hindsight we could say well,the hippies, you know, they
were right.
Vietnam War was not a good idea, but people were freaked out
about them because they wereback to nature and a lot of
people in our world have lostconnection with nature and are
(21:06):
put off by that.
I was in a Dunkin' Donuts inVermont yes, it was in Vermont
and somebody in there said heyyou can't be in here without
shoes, and so I have a pair ofslippers I carry.
So I was fine, I put them on.
You don't want to get intofights with people.
It's easy to get into fightsbecause nobody likes being told
(21:28):
what to do, but when you putyourself out there it forces you
to engage with people.
You understand you're going tosurprise them in some cases and
you need to develop someprocedures to either make your
case or back off.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
This is amazing.
I love talking to people likeyou because, you know, I have a
kind of a preconceived notion ofwhat I think you'll be like and
what I think we're going totalk about, and I'm like, okay,
barefoot, kenny's out runningbarefoot.
I didn't.
I mean, you're barefoot all thetime, which is amazing.
I didn't even know that beforewe started.
So I love that.
I love the things I discoverabout people.
I think that's cool.
I love that you're doing that.
(22:03):
I think it's pretty awesomethat you're doing that and
you're like you said, youstarted off kind of pragmatic.
It's just, you know, it's hey,so I helped with injury and it's
just become a whole way of lifefor you.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Thank you, jake, but I think this is a common theme
for a lot of folks that I knowthat you're talking to, and I'm
going to go back to JeremyGeorge and he had challenges and
he said I'm going to puttogether.
He put together his ownchallenge, which was 52 bucket
list items in 52 weeks, and hesaid this is my way of taking
(22:36):
charge of my life right now.
I need to do something thatworks for me, because the
conventional wisdom about whatI'm supposed to be doing has
sort of left me high and dry.
I need to take charge.
Put my hands on the wheel, turnthe wheel real sharp, pull up
on the parking brake, do one ofthose emergency 180s and then
(22:59):
peel out in the other direction.
And he, he did that and hechanged as a result.
He learned and he changed.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
The other thing too.
I think it's amazing.
Not only are you just out andabout barefoot, like you said,
you're running marathons, whichis a the last 26 have been
barefoot.
You're doing that sort of thing, you're also bagging peaks peak
bagging, as they say and I knowyou did a challenge.
I think you're also baggingpeaks peak bagging, as they say
and I know you did a challenge.
I think you're still I mean,you're still doing these
challenges.
(23:26):
You've got more challenges tocome, but can we talk about the
grid?
What is the grid?
Where are the CAT skills?
Kind of give me the whole whatthis challenge is.
Again, the word challenge.
You heard the word challengeand you're off.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
So the grid is a certain kind of peak bagging
project and you can do itanywhere where there's a list of
mountains.
Now I'm not sure I would trydoing it in the Himalayas
because whatever the list ofmountains is, would be really
hard.
The Catskills are in New Yorkstate and they're about two
hours north of New York City.
New York's got the Adirondacks,which are a little bit taller.
(24:00):
They're another two hoursfurther north.
The Catskills are not hugemountains.
They're 3,500 to 4,000 feetgenerally.
But the terrain is very rugged,steep, rocky trails, thick
forest.
One of the distinctions of theCatskills is a number of the
peaks don't have official trails, so you have to navigate to the
(24:20):
summit using map and compass orGPS or just paying attention.
But it's hard to see.
In the Catskills the vegetationis very thick in the summer
anyhow.
So in the Catskills there's apeak bagging list that includes
35 mountains and that's a commonchallenge slash goal for a lot
of people.
It's a way to just get outthere and enjoy the mountains,
(24:40):
but do it in a structured formatthat other people have done and
that adds some social meaningto the project.
The grid takes a peak bagginglist to the next level and you
could do it anywhere wherethere's a list.
You want to complete that listin each month of the year.
So for the CAT skills, that's35 high peaks times 12 months is
(25:01):
420 climbs.
Now you don't have to do it inone year, you can take as long
as you like to finish it, andfor most people it ends up being
a multi-year project.
But this is something Idiscovered accidentally at a
point in time in my life whereother things were not going
(25:23):
perfectly, and so I talked about.
You know, I had a corporate joband you know I think a lot of
times we progress in our careerand then we hit sort of a
leveling off place where you'relike gee, to get to the next
level, that's going to be reallyhard, or the people who I'm
competing with are actuallyreally good, and that's a risky
(25:46):
place to be because you can losea lot of energy when you
realize that maybe youridealistic goals for yourself to
be the CEO or the president ofthe United States or whatever
you had imagined maybe theprobability of getting there was
lower than you thought.
So I was.
You know things were slow atwork and so I was like, great,
I'll do more running.
(26:06):
But then I began to injuremyself.
And there's a point if you getgood at running, that means
you're getting good at pushingyourself.
But apparently, as we get old,the platform loses resilience
and so you set yourself up forsome problems.
So both of those things werebeginning to challenge me and I
sat around thinking to myselfthis is what Henry David Thoreau
(26:30):
meant when he wrote that themajority of men and of course
this is 19th century, so hemeant the majority of people,
the majority of people livelives of quiet desperation.
The majority of people livelives of quiet desperation.
And I was like, hey, thatsounds like me and that had not
been my attitude up to thispoint.
So I was, you know, wondering,because before that I had done
(26:52):
marathons and ultras and I haddone some record setting runs.
I had set a record on the longpath, I had set a record for
running the Badwater Double, andthose were hugely empowering
and thrilling adventures.
And now I was sort of stuck.
That's when I heard about thegrid and I thought what a
perfect project, because I don'thave to race, I can take my
(27:13):
time, I can scratch off thepeaks as I can get to them on
the weekends or taking vacationtime and I can give myself a
multi-year runway to achieve ameaningful goal.
So that project immediatelytook over my life and became the
most important thing that I wasdoing, and so I threw myself
(27:35):
into the project.
I've got a book coming out inthe fall on this and I think you
might say there's possibly alittle bit of an obsessive
undertone to it, but this becamethe most important project in
my life and I think it was likeJeremy's 52 bucket list.
It was my chance to takecontrol of my life and achieve a
(28:00):
goal that was meaningful to me,and it ended up being a project
where I really learned a lotabout myself and changed.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Catskills itself is about 35 mountains peaks, so to
speak.
How long did it take you to dothe 420?
Are you still doing it?
Speaker 2 (28:17):
When I discovered the grid which was entirely
coincidental I actually ran intosomebody and he had a backpack
with a little banner pinned toit.
It said 35 times 12 equals 420.
And I was like, what does thatmean?
And he explained it to me and Ididn't really understand.
And then a few months later Iran into somebody else on the
(28:39):
trail randomly and theymentioned that they had just
finished the grid for January.
And I was like I've heard aboutit.
What is this crazy project?
How does it work?
And they explained it and Ifinally got it.
But when I discovered the gridI had done so much hiking and
running already in the Catskillsthat I had a head start.
So I was able to go backthrough my training logs and
find 120 or so peaks I'd alreadyclimbed and could find the
(29:01):
dates.
So I only had 300 to go.
So that took me two years to dothat 300.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
I would imagine, because I'm just imagining this
and obviously I've never beenthere so I don't know really
what it's like.
But you said the summer it'sthick with vegetation, other
times of the year it's different, and I guess you're doing this
through different times of theyear.
Yeah, could you tell?
Like I mean, it's probably likea whole different experience
doing a peak in winter versussummer.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Well, you know and look, there are places like New
Hampshire that have seriouslydangerous winters.
Right, the Catskills isn't thatbad, but it's a real winter up
there.
You know, also, often when youtake on these projects you tend
to whether consciously orunconsciously you tend to do the
easy stuff first and you end upin.
(29:49):
So I got into my second yearand I was like, holy crap, I
have 100 winter peaks left to doJanuary, february, march, first
half of April, and thenNovember and December.
The winter can be easy or itcan be difficult, but fresh snow
requiring snowshoes.
Most of the time it's not thisbad, but there were a couple of
times I had to get out there.
And when you're on a schedule toget this done like a normal
person would say, fine, it's notgreat conditions, I'll just
(30:11):
finish the grid a year later.
But if you're in a hurry to dosomething and why would you be
in a hurry?
Because it's meaningful to youand you want to get it done,
just like you want to get to theend of the half marathon, right
?
You don't want to.
You want to get to the end,right?
So then you have to dragyourself out.
So the toughest times for me waswhen there was fresh, deep snow
(30:32):
, so like two, three feet offresh snow, and suddenly you're
going, at best, one mile an hourand then you go uphill and it's
like no, it's two hours to goone mile.
I think my slowest hike wasthree hours to go one mile.
And the snow.
If the sun comes out and thesnow starts to get soft and
(30:53):
heavy, then you've got like 10pounds on each foot and you're
carrying a big pack because youneed more gear and so forth.
There's nothing that a thousandmillion other hikers haven't
contended with.
But for me that was thechallenging part of the project
and that's what made it intensewas the need to get out there,
(31:14):
whether conditions were good orbad.
And there's subtle things too,jake, like I don't know about
you, I love the sun and in thesun I feel energetic, and when
the fog comes curling inoverhead, you know it sucks out
a little bit of my energy, andso the winters were also
difficult.
Because of you know, you lostthe sparkle of spring and summer
(31:36):
and the colors of fall.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
And I'm an early morning person, like during the
week, and so I usually do my saymy long runs for the weekend,
and so then it's light outsideand so I feel so much better
than when I'm running.
It's pitch black out and I'mwearing a headlamp and it's just
a different, different vibe.
So I totally, totally get that.
What made you decide I want towrite a book about this?
(32:00):
Did you think about that beforeyou started it, or was it while
you're doing it?
What made you want to do that?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
I enjoy writing.
I think when we haveexperiences that are intense, I
think most of us feel an impulseto share that with others, and
I think you were talking withJeremy about this, and there's a
great quote from MarshallUlrich, who is a legendary ultra
runner and mountaineer.
(32:26):
He's done Everest, as well asthe Badwater Race, multiple,
multiple times, and he said ifyou're just going out to do peak
bagging or other kinds ofbucket lists, if you're just
going out to brag, that's vulgar.
But if you're going out tolearn and admire and share, that
can be noble.
And so, part of my thinking, Iknew I was going to write up
(32:48):
something about this because tome part of what made this
project so thrilling was thevariety and the contrast.
And 35 mountains are alldifferent, plus they're
different routes up them, plusthey change with each point of
the year and plus you and I arealways changing.
(33:08):
Some days we're feeling greatand some days we're dragging ass
.
And so I really felt like the420 climbs were 420 meaningful
experiences in just thebrilliance of that and the joy
of being out in a naturalenvironment.
I just wanted to share that, ifit would resonate with anybody
(33:29):
at all.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
What's the official name of the book?
Speaker 2 (33:31):
The official name is Chasing the Grid.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Chasing the Grid.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
And it is available for pre-order on Amazon and it
comes out in September.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Excellent, very good, okay.
So, yeah, everyone, I'll putsome links too so everyone can
get to your website or whateverto do that.
So, chasing the grid, I thinkthere was a subheading too that
talks some about the spiritualside of it.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
That's right, and the subtitle is an ultra runners
physical and spiritual pursuitof the ultimate mountain
challenge.
By the way, the publisher, atfirst they were like let's call
it conquering the grid and I waslike no, no, no, no, no, no, no
.
Pacing is fine.
You don't conquer the mountains, you learn from them.
But the spiritual part, thatwas sort of a that has been an
(34:18):
interest of mine since I canremember and it's again just
pragmatic.
You know, here I am and whereare the levers that I pull to
operate myself.
So in the book I talk about notjust climbing this mountain and
then that mountain, but alsosort of what I learned.
There's a great tradition inAmerica called the
(34:39):
transcendentalist tradition.
It's Thoreau and Emerson andWalt Whitman and John Muir, and
we learn about these guys inhigh school and then forget them
and move on to our high techdigital ecosystem that we
inhabit now, and hopefully AIwon't take over.
But the more I think about thisworld and how super high tech
we've become, the more I go backto know strength and joy and
(35:06):
creativity come from nature, notfrom technology, and agency too
.
And so as I went out into themountains and hopefully this is
interesting to the reader, Ibegan to have some weird
experiences, just in the sensethat, spending so much time out
there in the mountains, I beganto, if you will, rediscover the
(35:30):
more original way of relating toour environment In the modern
world.
It's all about I, I, I, I, I,I'm this, I'm that, I have this
label and I can do that.
I can dress myself up as arunner or a barefoot person or a
worker or whatever.
When you're out in themountains, that starts to fade
(35:51):
and then you start to realize,hey, I'm not really that much
different from the other livingcreatures out here have a brain,
but we're both people in thesense that we're just trying to
survive and grow and reproduce.
Maybe John Muir used to calltrees people and plants people
(36:13):
and butterflies people.
Everything was a person to him.
I think we feel we still havetree huggers and people like
that, and so that, to me, ispart of the spiritual element of
this.
It's trying to get disengagedfrom the modern world and
rediscover, in a sense, who wereally are.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
I want to ask about all of these ascents that you've
had, all these climbs, thesemountains 420, just in the
Catskills I'm sure you've baggedmore than that just around the
country.
Colorado's got some nice-sizedmountains, things like that.
I think you've been in Colorado.
Is there any particular climbor mountain that stuck out to
(36:51):
you for whatever reason?
Either it was difficult ormaybe it was the beauty of it.
Whatever you think, is there aparticular one that stood out to
you?
Speaker 2 (36:59):
My current project is to climb 1,000 mountains
barefoot before I'm too old todo so.
So it's a project that'sspecifically designed to force
me to manage myself gracefullythrough the aging process.
Mount Albert is 14,444 orsomething like that in Colorado.
That was actually astraightforward climb.
(37:20):
It's 4,000 feet up but I didn'thave any particular problems.
And to my astonishment, on theway down I met another barefoot
hiker, a young man named I thinkit was Mike from Boulder.
But Katahdin was difficult inMaine and I approached Katahdin
from the knife edge and theknife edge it's a very narrow, I
(37:41):
guess it's called an arrette.
It's not really an arrettetechnically but it's a very
narrow sort of knife edge ridgebetween, I forget, the mountain
to the south and then the peakand the trail sort of creeps
along the crest and you knowyou're climbing over rocks and
boulders and it's not dangerousper se but it's not really a
trail and barefoot you don'twant to just go lunging, jumping
(38:05):
on sharp rocks.
So I did a lot of that,crawling and sliding on my butt
and it was very slow.
So that sticks out in my memoryas being difficult.
But I'm at 521.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Okay, that was going to be.
My question is where you're atwith the whole thousand.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
I'll be out in Utah at some point.
I'm heading out to Californiain a few weeks.
You know, one peak that standsout during the grid, which I did
barefoot, is Wyndham, and Iwent up there with my dog.
At the time, odie, I had a verystrange objective.
I said I'd been reading WaltWhitman and I've been reading
Walt Whitman's views on the selfand time, and I said, well,
(38:46):
we'll go up Windham, and ofcourse Whitman's tome of poetry
is called Leaves of Grass.
So I said, well, climb Windham,we'll stop at the top and think
a little bit about Whitman'spoetry.
One of the things I had beendoing was observing some of the
different plants in theCatskills and I realized that I
hadn't learned to identify anyof the grasses, and the path to
(39:08):
Wyndham is sort of grassy inplaces.
So I was like, cool, we'llstudy the grass.
So that's one of the chaptersin the book.
Because we got to the top andas a runner I'm always used to
being in motion, and so the veryact of stopping is difficult
for me, unless I'm really tiredout or something, and even then
the clock is always ticking.
So it was just an interestingexperience to sit at the top for
(39:31):
a while, and Odie, you know, isthe same as me.
He likes to be on the move, butas he got a little bit older,
on this climb he took a nap andI stood a bee sitting on a
meadowsweet.
Bush and a private jet flewoverhead and then out in the
distance some gliders werecircling and then a sparrow flew
(39:55):
past and a few seconds later acouple of vultures flew past
after it, perhaps.
So it was a special experience,and Whitman is very clear about
his views.
We think of time as rushingpast, but I think he thinks of
time more as a permanent kind ofdirection, complementary to
distance, the way we learn inphysics.
John Muir had a comment in oneof his diary entries when he was
(40:19):
out in the California Mountains.
He talked about hiking up intothe mountains and then running
back to camp in the moonlightand it was such a thrilling
experience.
He said so ends a day that willnever end.
And I read that to myself and Iwas like well, how does a day
never end?
And what he's saying is thatthe experience is permanent and
(40:41):
the experience changes you andyou and I and others.
We change other people.
So the experience is permanenteven if we're not.
So that kind of thinking abouttime was one of the things I
came away from the grid projectwith maybe a little bit of a
different perspective.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
I appreciate your perspective on all this.
This has been eye-opening to me.
What about some of the setbacks?
What are some of the setbacksyou faced?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
During the grid, the setbacks were you know the
challenges like that deep snow,right?
So there was nothing radicalabout the setbacks, it's just
the act of dealing with them.
I think part of this what Icall the spiritual journey.
I think of it as a lot aboutbeing, about agency.
I'm going to take over my life,I'm going to make my decisions
(41:23):
and I can make decisions to helpother people because I like
other people.
But I'm going to make mydecisions and I can make
decisions to help other peoplebecause I like other people.
But I'm going to make thosedecisions instead of being
gaslit or bullied into thinkingthe right things or dressing the
right way.
So part of the spiritualdevelopment, I think, is just
getting stronger so that we canmanage ourselves.
And how do you get stronger?
(41:45):
Well, if you're a weightlifter,you go to the gym and you lift
weights.
If you're a runner, you do ahalf marathon or whatever you
want.
And I think it's just thatpractice of making an effort to
push yourself into a zone ofdiscomfort and manage yourself
in that zone and you come out ofit and you're like okay.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
So there were some challenges.
One of the things I mentioned.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
In some cases you've got to navigate in the Cascades
off trail and in some casesthere are what's called relic
boreal forests, which consistsof thickets of fern spruce trees
like little Christmas trees,but Thoreau called them devil
trees because their branchesinterlocked like this and you
have to sort of slide throughthem.
Sometimes they all fall down inpiles and you have to.
(42:30):
Hopefully you were payingattention and you saw the
deadfall and you aim around it,but sometimes you don't and then
you're crawling through thedeadfall while the stuff is
trying to move the stuff out ofyour face.
That can get frustrating.
Again, it's like the snow.
You're a runner, you're used tomoving quickly and now you're
looking at your watch and you'renot even going one mile an hour
and I would get angry, I wouldget frustrated and part of me.
(42:52):
There's a great Emerson quotelose the military hurry.
And of course, having been aranger for a short period of
time, corporate America is thesame as the army it's.
You've got a mission, get yourmission done, accountability,
performance, et cetera.
But he said lose the militaryhurry, adopt the pace of nature.
(43:16):
Her secret is patience and partof me knew that after years of
being over caffeinated andrushing around mindlessly.
I needed to learn how to moveslowly and actually the stunning
thing is, moving slowly, Ifound, was mentally much more
difficult than putting out anall out effort and running
quickly.
So those were challenges, thosewere challenges, and so the 420
peaks was part of how I tookmyself.
(43:38):
Offline.
I subjected myself to thechallenges of being tired or the
trees, or rain or snow orwhatever.
It was just worked on myselfand I think at one point in the
book I say if you drag yourselfback and forth across rugged
terrain long enough, it mightsmooth off some of the rough
(43:58):
edges of your personality.
So that's it, just practice it.
Being a person and movingyourself is just how we try to
get better.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
I love it.
I love all just the lifelessons that you learn as you,
you know, pick up the barefootpart and then you're like let me
, you know, bag these peaks.
Let me do the cat skills, thegrid Let me get out there and do
the grid.
You mentioned the thousand.
You're working towards athousand.
You're at 520.
What's kind of?
Do you have a set date in mindor are you just going to kind of
(44:27):
take your time, get into that?
Do you have any otherchallenges?
Speaker 2 (44:31):
you're working on as well, because I know challenge
is a big thing for you.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think of these in someways like pilgrimages, and I was
thinking that listening toJeremy talking about his bucket
list.
You know it's a chance to takeyourself offline and work on
yourself and learn, challengeyourself and learn.
And for some people who havesuper high power jobs and
they're changing the world, theyjust need to do that because
(44:55):
they're having such a big impact.
But I think many of us benefitfrom taking a break from the
nine to five or whatever theeight to six or whatever it is
and doing different things tolearn, because it's a shame we
only have one life.
So I was just thinking theother day it might be time to do
something different.
And the last thing I'm going todo is commit myself on your
(45:15):
podcast, because if I saysomething on your podcast you
heard it here first everybodybut the Thousand Mountains is
meant to be a multi-year project.
Right, I'm also doing the 50marathons in 50 states, but
that's a terrible projectbecause it's just endless
logistics and travel and I'm at11, I think, or 12.
(45:36):
So I'm actually potentially duefor something, but I'm also
looking at the opportunitiesjust to make a difference.
So I'm involved with anot-for-profit that's important
to me.
We're going through some changeat work and I'm trying to think
how can I make a difference here?
My alma mater.
(45:58):
I went to a school and thecurrent administration is
talking about changing the taxrules and there's challenges.
I'm like they're not facing upthe challenges.
They're not taking the actionthat I would like to see them
take.
Could I somehow get through tothem and help them think this
through?
Probably not.
But so I think about otherthings.
(46:18):
And you know the great thing,these projects out in nature.
They're like a baseline.
I've made some decisions likenot to take maybe, a bigger job
because it would not give meenough time to do my running and
hiking.
I would take a job or dosomething else if I felt it
would be better for the worldand better for me than another
(46:40):
mountain.
So hopefully I put myself in aposition where I can flex in
different directions.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
This has been fascinating.
I've really enjoyed ourconversation, getting to know
you and who you are.
It's been amazing.
There's one question I alwayslike to ask, because I ask on
every show, but for you, for you, ken, what does adventure mean
to you?
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Yeah, and I think that's a it's such a great
question, jake.
And and I think that's a it'ssuch a great question, jake and
I have been on some adventuresin life, and not just in the
mountains, at work and in otherplaces.
I think an adventure issomething where you have a clear
mission, you have a clearobjective.
It could be like Bilbo and thedwarves going after smog's gold,
(47:20):
right, but there's somethingyou're setting out to do with
you.
You have a crystal clearunderstanding of what the
objective is and there's risk.
There's risk you might not besuccessful and there might be
people out there trying to work,dragons trying to to stop you.
And I think the adventure tendsto leave the community, the
(47:43):
community of people who areworking and are productive and
are raising families and doingthe normal things in life, and
you're saying I'm going to leavethat behind and take a risk and
do something different becauseit might matter, it might be
important enough to take thatrisk, or you're impatient and
you want the challenge.
You're not suited to be justsomebody who follows the normal
(48:08):
path.
So those are the ingredients inmy mind.
Adventures can be thrilling andyou can win great prizes, but
you can also lose, so I knowI've done things that haven't
worked out well, and this can bevery painful, besides the lost
time and energy.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Ken, thank you so much for joining me today and
sharing who you are and thewhole idea.
I'm going to be taking off myshoes here a little more, I
think, after this conversation.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
And I'll leave that as a challenge to all your
listeners, at the risk of themjust deciding to turn off.
But you know, take a few stepssomewhere and then ask your feet
what they think it would be.
Just I'd be really curious toto hear what you, what you find
out.
I would be, and that's thething I like to say about
barefoot.
Barefoot turns every walk orhike or run into an adventure.
(48:57):
You don't necessarily know whatyou're going to encounter and
you have to pay attention.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
That is a great point .
I love it.
Ken encounter and you have topay attention.
That is a great point.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
I love it.
Ken, thank you so much forcoming on Journey with Jake.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
You're so welcome, jake.
Thank you so much for theinvitation.
What an inspiring andthought-provoking conversation
with Ken Posner.
From running barefoot totackling the grid, ken's story
is a powerful reminder thatadventure isn't just about the
miles, it's about mindset,simplicity and find a deeper
meaning in the journey.
Thank you, ken.
If you want to follow alongwith Ken, be sure to check him
out on Instagram at long brownpath that's long underscore
(49:39):
brown, underscore path and visithis website, barefootkencom.
You can also pre-order hisupcoming book Chasing the Grid
and Ultra Runners Physical andSpiritual Journey in the Purs
pursuit of the ultimate mountainchallenge.
I highly recommend it.
I'm looking forward to gettingmy copy.
Thanks for tuning into Journeywith Jake.
If Ken's story inspired you, dome a favor and share this
episode with a friend or leave aquick rating or review.
It really helps others findthese incredible stories.
(50:00):
We've got another great episodecoming your way next week with
Cody Sudmeier, the founder ofSpur Experiences.
We'll be talking all about thepower of choosing experiences
over things and how that mindsetcan lead to a more meaningful
life.
And, as always, remember it'snot always about the destination
as it is about the journey.
Take care everybody.
Thank you.
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