June 19, 2025 • 55 mins
#165 - The Missouri River winds through America's heartland like a massive, muddy snake—but what's it like to follow it from source to mouth? Larry Campbell, a retired math professor, did exactly that in a life-changing seven-week adventure that transformed his understanding of this iconic waterway.
Larry's journey began at Three Forks, Montana, where he made the startling discovery that the Missouri begins by flowing north, not south as many assume. From there, he traced the river's 2,300-mile path through seven states, 27 cities, and centuries of American history. Along the way, he walked in the footsteps of Lewis and Clark, often standing in the exact spots where these legendary explorers had stood more than two centuries earlier.
What makes Larry's story so captivating isn't just the magnificent landscapes or historical sites—it's the "human treasures" he encountered. There's the story of Shep, a loyal dog who greeted trains daily for five years hoping his deceased owner would return. There's the Swiss woman who found freedom in South Dakota's vast open spaces after leaving the confines of alpine Europe. And there's the unexpected discovery that Larry's own great-great-grandfather was one of the founders of Atchison, Kansas, a revelation that gave his journey a deeply personal dimension.
The Missouri River isn't just water flowing through America—it's a cultural dividing line separating farmers from ranchers, splitting cities across state lines, and even creating time zone boundaries in places like Pierre and Fort Pierre. Larry's vivid descriptions bring these fascinating quirks to life, showing how the river has shaped not just the landscape but the very identity of the communities along its banks.
Ready to experience this fascinating journey yourself? Pick up Larry's beautifully illustrated book "Rollin' Down the River: Discovering People and Places Along the Mighty Missouri," featuring 200 photographs and stories that will make you feel like you're traveling alongside him. Contact Larry directly for a signed copy at a special discount for podcast listeners—and discover why this adventure became so much more than just a trip down a river. You can reach Larry by email larrycampbell@missouristate.edu or check out his website www.larryncampbell.com.
Want to be a guest on Journey with Jake? Send me a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/journeywithjake
Visit LandPirate.com to get your gear that has you, the adventurer, in mind. Use the code "Journey with Jake" to get an additional 15% off at check out.
Visit geneticinsights.co and use the code "DISCOVER25" to enjoy a sweet 25% off your first purchase.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, the
word fascinating means extremelyinteresting or charming.
That's exactly how my guest,larry Campbell, describes his
unforgettable journey along theMissouri River.
Back in the summer of 2016,larry spent seven weeks
traveling by car from theriver's source at Three Forks,
montana, all the way to itsmeeting point with the
(00:21):
Mississippi in St Louis.
Along the way, he didn't justdiscover history and scenery, he
found a friend in the riveritself.
Join us as Larry shares storiesfrom this fascinating adventure
and the connection he formedwith one of America's greatest
rivers.
Welcome to Journey with Jake.
This is a podcast aboutadventure and how, through our
adventures, we can overcome thechallenges of life that come our
(00:44):
way.
While I expect you will learnsome things about different
adventures, this show willentertain you.
Each episode will featuredifferent guests or guests as
they share experiences andstories from the different
adventures they have been on.
Not only will you beentertained, but you'll also
hear the failures and trialseach guest faces and what they
have done or are doing toovercome the hardships that come
(01:06):
their way.
My goal is to take each of uson a journey through the
experiences of my guests, withthe hope that you'll be
entertained and inspired toovercome your day-to-day
challenges.
After all, it's not all aboutthe destination as it is about
(01:29):
the journey.
Hello everyone and welcome tothe show.
I'm Jake Bushman, host ofJourney with Jake.
Today, I have the pleasure ofintroducing you to Larry
Campbell, author of Rolling Downthe River Discovering People
and Places Along the MightyMissouri.
In our conversation, larryshares the story of his
(01:51):
seven-week adventure down theMissouri River and he likes to
describe it fascinating and,trust me, it really is.
Before we dive in, just a quickreminder if you haven't already
, make sure you're subscribed tothe podcast wherever you listen
.
You can also watch fullepisodes on YouTube.
If you're someone who likes toput faces to the voices, just
search Journey with Jake podcast, hit subscribe and hit that
(02:13):
like button while you're there.
If you'd like to connect withme more personally, head over to
Instagram.
At Journey with Jake podcast, Ilove sharing behind the scenes
moments and clips from past,current and upcoming guests.
And a quick shout out to thePodmatch Podcast Network Journey
with Jake is proud to be partof this incredible community of
independent creators.
(02:34):
Explore more great shows atpodmatchcom forward slash
network.
I feel incredibly lucky to haveconversations like the one
you're about to hear.
I feel incredibly lucky to haveconversations like the one
you're about to hear.
I didn't know much about theMissouri River before speaking
with Larry, but his storiesreally opened my eyes to the
beauty, history and spirit ofthis iconic waterway.
(02:54):
If you enjoy this episode, Ialso recommend checking out
episode 156 with Chris Nance,where we talked about life on
the Mississippi River.
All right, let's jump into myconversation with Larry Campbell
.
All right, I'm excited.
Today I have Larry Campbellwith me.
Larry, welcome to Journey withJake.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Thank you, Jake.
I think it's going to be fun.
I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Absolutely.
I'm excited, too, because we'regoing to talk about something
you did back in the summer of2016.
You explored the length of theMissouri River.
I didn't know much about theMissouri River I did a little
investigation on it a little bitbut I'm excited to hear even
some facts about the MissouriRiver and things like that, plus
just your adventure and who youare.
Before we jump into your wholeadventure that you did that
(03:37):
summer, I want to know a littlebit about who you are, kind of
some of your background, whereyou're from, kind of where you
grew up and what you've been upto.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I'm from Missouri.
I right now live in Branson,missouri, which is in the
southwest corner and theentertainment capital of the
country nowadays liveentertainment.
I grew up near Kansas City,went to a small liberal arts
college and I don't want yourviewers to turn and run before
they hear but I was a math majorand I taught for 35 years at
(04:05):
two different colleges anduniversities in math and math
education.
So I retired a while ago,that's all I'll say.
And I retired a tiny bit earlybecause I still felt like I was
young enough to do some otherthings and I didn't know what
those other things were yet.
(04:26):
And in, oh, sometime around 2015, I got a phone call from a
friend, a friend of a friend,who said I got a book you might
want to look at or read.
There's a gal that followed theMississippi from start to
finish and she lives here inSpringfield, which is only about
an hour north.
It's a really good book and Ican remember at that time.
(04:49):
I remember the thought passingthrough my head wouldn't it be
fun to do that on the Missouri?
And I thought it was just apassing thought.
Well, it passed, but it cameback, grabbed me by the throat
and just you know, kind ofyelled at me until I started
following through.
So I started writing letters tochambers of commerce along the
(05:11):
river, got a lot of goodresponses.
A lot of them were even willingto put me up if I would visit
their town.
So that's how it got started.
I may have gotten into that tooearly.
I'd be glad to tell you anymore of the boring details of my
pre-life if you want.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Yeah, no, that's interesting.
So you're a math professor foryears.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yes, I taught at a small liberal arts college here
near Branson and there I taughteverything, all the math, and I
liked that.
When I moved north to the stateone of the state universities,
then I was in a more narrow slotand I taught math education and
worked with future teachersmore.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Gotcha.
Okay, so you're a math guy,which I'm totally not a math guy
.
Yeah, so you read a book about.
You read a book about somebodywho went along the Mississippi,
kind of from start to finish.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
What was it about that that sparked the interest?
I mean it just you know.
Have you done anything likethat before?
Speaker 2 (06:09):
No, so I'm not exactly sure I could answer that
.
It was just something like wow,I bet that wouldn't that be a
fun adventure.
And you know, here I am retiredWouldn't that be fun to do on
the Missouri River?
And I, like, I say I just Ijust thought it was, wouldn't
that be fun to do on theMissouri River?
And, like I say, I just thoughtit was a wouldn't that be fun
type of thought.
And the more it kept stickingaround.
(06:31):
My son, who is the realadventurer, heard about that and
could tell I was semi-seriousand kind of kept a foot in my
rear to move me along andoffered to help some.
So before I knew it, it was tomove me along and offered to
help some.
So before I knew it, it wassummer of 2016 and I was headed
north and then west out toMontana to get started.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Wow, okay, and you mentioned, you mentioned son.
So yeah, you married kids.
What's kind of your family?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
situation yeah, I'm married.
I've been married for 56 yearsnow.
Congratulations 56 years nowCongratulations.
We always like to joke.
We've been married 53 years and53 out of 56 isn't bad.
But yeah, and we have two kids.
They are no longer kids.
They are both married and doingwell in their respective fields
(07:18):
, and we get to see them everyso often.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Good deal.
Good for you, wow.
Okay To start this journey,though.
You're like okay, I'm going togo trek along the Mississippi,
missouri river, excuse me, theMissouri river.
You said you reached out tolike chamber of commerce and you
reached out and you did so.
You did some pre-work.
You didn't just say I'm justgoing to go and drive along and
see where I end up.
You kind of had some plans.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, there's a fine line there.
I did reach out to Chambersbecause I wanted to semi-plan
the trip.
I wanted to see if they're.
You know, missouri River is aheck of a long river, so I
wanted some local people thatcould tell me stops to make and
what to visit when I was there,and so on.
(08:01):
So I reached out and, like Isaid, I got a really good
response from Chambers.
It was almost more of a matterof picking the ones that would
be a nice distance apart and soon, as opposed to trying to
scramble up things, andparticularly those particular
(08:22):
river towns and cities of allsizes, I might add, all the way
down, all the way from St Louisand Kansas City, all the way
down to not quite villages butalmost, as I say, about half of
them not only said we'd be happyto host you, you know, and we
will even put you up in our fillin the blank.
(08:42):
That was fun.
Put you up in our fill in theblank, that was fun.
And once I got that settled,then I started setting out and
planning and setting some datesand when I'd arrive.
And that's both good news andbad news, like I started to say,
because I did want to have sometime to explore on my own kind
of in each city, and that's afine balance, because some of
(09:05):
the towns were so wonderfullyeager to help that they had
things all planned for me youneed to go talk to this guy, you
need to see this spot, and soon.
So there were a couple of timesthat I actually had to say I
appreciate that, but I'd like tobe out for a half a day on my
(09:26):
own exploring.
So it worked out pretty well.
You can't just, you know, ifyou're lined up with 27 cities
which I was and you're arrivingat one city on day X, you can't
show up on day X plus one, andso on.
So you've got a little bit ofstructure there, but within
those cities and that structureI tried to build in some time to
(09:49):
explore on my own or do whatgrabbed me or whatever.
So it turned out to work fairlywell.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Good deal, yeah.
So you had to have a little bitof structure, just especially
because some of these people arewilling to put you up and you
got to take advantage of that.
You got to be courteous of themand say and it's not like.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
It's not like the people and the places they were
suggesting weren't wonderfulsuggestions, you know, because
they were.
They were the people that knewthe river, or or the places that
I couldn't miss, or the Lewisand Clark sites are are fill in
the blank.
It's just like I said.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
I wanted to have a feeling of exploring myself at
times.
Okay, so just kind of anoverview of it.
First of all, how long did thistake you to do and how many
miles is it approximatelyroughly?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
I'm going to do that in reverse order.
It's approximately 2,300 miles.
It's a little over that.
I can't remember and part ofthat depends on something I'll
probably get into later wherethe real source of the river is,
but I left myself some time toget out there and I started from
(10:54):
Three Forks, montana, which iswhere the official source of the
river is, on July 31st, slashAugust 1st, and then it took me
51 days, which is a little overseven weeks from start to finish
, to make it all the way down towhere it flows into the
Mississippi, near St Louis, justnorth of St Louis.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
So 50, some odd days, seven weeks approximately.
You said you've been marriedfor 56 years, but you did this
solo right.
You went on your own.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I did it solo and actually you bring up a good
point.
I mean, my wife and I talkedabout that and we both decided
it was better that I take thetrip myself.
We each view and like differentkinds of things, so we could
envision her wanting to do thison one day, me wanting to do
something else, and so on, andshe said, well, it's your
(11:51):
adventure.
She was really good about it.
It's your adventure.
You possibly have a book comingout of it, which I did, and you
should go by yourself.
But she was very supportivefrom the sidelines.
In fact, there were a couple oftimes early on, when I was
still in Montana and looking atsix and a half weeks ahead of me
, that I wondered what have Igot myself into?
And she was very good alsoabout, you know, kicking me in
(12:12):
the rear and saying you're goingto do this.
It was, you know, it'll be alot of fun and you'll look back
on it.
So, yeah, that worked well.
That's a good question.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Good, so you had good support from afar.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yes, yes, a good question, good.
So you had good support fromafar, yes, yes, and from a lot
of friends that knew I was outthere and I was just beginning.
I have kind of a bi-weeklymailing that it's a cross
between a blog and high pointsand things to smile about and
some of my pictures, so I hadpeople following me.
I kept a weekly report, kind ofthing that I had.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Okay, nice Very good.
Okay, good for you, that's agood way to do it.
Okay, so you said Montana andyou said the official source.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, that's one of my favorite stories and it kind
of combines two things at once.
First of all, one of theextreme surprises to me.
I mean I guess I would haveflunked geography but it turns
out that the Missouri Riverstarts by flowing north.
That just was socounterintuitive to me and for,
(13:17):
in fact, of the five cities Iwas in Montana, I was still
going north on four of them.
And the reason that enters isbecause when Lewis and Clark
were on that stretch of theriver they were then going south
and this was they wereapproaching their second winter
on the river.
They were still looking to getto the end of the river, find
(13:40):
the Shoshone Indians, get someponies and get west over the
mountains.
Before they either froze orstarved to death.
They were not in an exploringmood when they finally got to
Three Forks.
Three Forks in Montana gets itsname because that's where three
tributaries come together atonce.
Typically, lewis and Clarkwould explore every confluence
(14:05):
that came up, because and that'sanother story we may or may not
get into there was a time theyalmost took the wrong fork and
so they didn't really have timeto explore there in that real
sense of finding out where theriver really starts.
Their approach was to actuallyjust name all three creeks,
(14:26):
tributaries, whatever.
There was the Jefferson and theMadison.
I forgot the third one.
It's just gone.
But Jefferson and Madison wereboth in the.
I mean Jefferson was thepresident sent them.
Madison was in the cabinet.
The other person was too, andthat name has slipped my mind
cabinet.
The other person was too, andthat name has slipped my mind.
(14:47):
Yeah, so that was theirapproach.
So it turns out that the MiddleFork is actually the real
Missouri.
I mean, you have to follow thatfor another 150 miles and I
really wanted to see that.
So I set aside a half a daywhile I was in Three Forks.
It's a good thing Lewis andClark didn't explore that,
because it took me most of amorning to get up there and it's
(15:09):
over 150 miles, but I did finda little.
Finally, something's calledHell Roaring Creek, where the
water has come down out of themountains and that's the real
start of the Missouri.
That also gets into some of thequestions.
It's so close in length to theMississippi and, depending on
(15:29):
the numbers that you have, thatgets into the argument about
which river is actually longer,because if you add 150 to 200
miles of the real river, thenthe Missouri is longer.
Some people will say theMississippi is longer, if you
don't add that.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Interesting Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
But Three Forks is where the river officially
starts and that's where Istarted from after I found the
real source.
So interesting.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
That's it's.
It's amazing.
And the funny part is I, youknow, I used to live in Ohio, so
I was along the Ohio river,there, you know, and I knew the
Ohio river and I knew theMissouri Ohio river.
There, you know, and I knew theOhio river and I knew the
Missouri river.
They, you know, joined into theMississippi and but I didn't
know much about the Missouririver.
I knew the state of Missouri.
I did not even realize that itstarts in Montana.
I had no idea.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
To be honest, that's the way I was too, cause I just
never thought about it.
You know, I'm sitting down herein Southwest Missouri and I I
thought, you know if I, if Iever thought about it I thought,
well, ok, it starts up theresomewhere in Nebraska and makes
its way down, but but no it?
It not only in in westernMontana is where it starts.
But again, it just floored me.
It flows, it flows north tostart, and by the time it turns
(16:40):
east, over to the Dakotas,you're within, almost always
within 50 to 125 miles of Canada, so it's just different.
And then it goes over and flowsstraight down through the
middle of the Dakotas and thenit borders Kansas and Missouri
and Iowa and Nebraska, and thenKansas City cuts hard to the
(17:03):
east, over to St Louis, on itslast few miles through my state.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
The fact that it flows north for a little bit.
That blew me away too.
I was kind of looking at a map,kind of following along, and
I'm like, wait a minute, I'mgoing south now, which means the
river's got to.
It just blew me away.
I was like, wow, I did notrealize that.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I mean, I, you know and again I'm repeating myself,
but that becomes moreinteresting as you think about
how it involves history and theLewis and Clark trip.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
So yeah, talk about that a little bit.
Lewis, talk about Lewis andClark a little bit, because you
know people from our history.
We know we've heard of Lewisand Clark and I know they did a
lot of exploring, did you?
Was there a lot of like Lewisand Clark sites that you saw
along the way?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah, just a lot.
And that brings up aninteresting point, jake.
When I started the trip,everyone more or less asked me
so you're doing Lewis and Clarkin reverse, right?
And so in some sense thatanswer was yes.
But it's a different question.
I had to decide am I going downthe river looking at Lewis and
(18:07):
Clark sites, or am I going downthe river, exploring the river
itself and taking the Lewis andClark sites as they happen to
come up, if that makes sense?
And I finally decided no, I'mfollowing the Missouri River,
and places of Lewis and Clarkwill just be icing on the cake.
Well, you can't go 10 feet onthe Missouri River without
(18:30):
running into Lewis and Clark.
So I developed just a.
You know, when you're in fifthgrade and you study that kind of
stuff, it's interesting thentoo.
But to be at some of theseplaces and realize, you know,
lewis and Clark walked here,it's just a really fascinating
feeling.
And I, you know I've got threeor four stories to go with that,
(18:53):
but it was just amazing.
It starts out as kind of a joke, but the truth to it, I mean,
is surprising.
Mean is surprising.
Almost every time I'd come intoa town it seems like there
would be a plaque somewhere intown that said the Lewis and
Clark adventure almost endedhere, because and there was so
(19:18):
much truth to all of that, Imean one time in particular it's
actually called the Bad River,but where the Bad River flows
into Missouri, in Pier and FortPier, south Dakota, there was a
huge close call with the SiouxIndians.
I mean, lewis and Clark hadbeen worried about them before
(19:38):
they left.
They're the most aggressive ofall the tribes.
There was some concern aboutwhether they'd even let them
continue on the trip, and Iwon't go into a lot of detail
unless we have time later.
But the trip really did almostend there.
It got to the point where theymet with three tribes, took them
back to the shore Somehow.
(20:00):
The Indians were insulted,either by a language
misunderstanding or thinkingthat gifts that Jefferson had
for them were trinkets.
All of a sudden the Indians haddrawn their arrows.
The cannons were set up on theship.
I mean, the guns were set up onthe ship.
(20:20):
It could have ended right thereand luckily one of the Indian
chiefs stepped in and BlackBuffalo and calmed things down.
They still held them, so tospeak, for two days before they
let them go on, and so there'sall kinds of stories like that
(20:40):
and all kinds of places.
Vermilion, south Dakota, a placecalled Spirit Mound, is just a
huge hill in the middle ofnowhere.
It's one of the places that weknow for sure that Lewis and
Clark walked because it's intheir journal, and when I came
through South Dakota they saidyou've got to see that place.
(21:02):
So I stopped and looked, but Ihad made a rotary presentation.
So I was in my nicer clothesnot my river exploring clothes
and I looked at one of theinterpretive plaques and it said
Lewis and Clark were here onsuch and such a date I think it
was August 12th, but I couldn'tbe wrong.
(21:22):
But I noticed that I was thereas I was going through to Sioux
City, iowa, which was only anhour away, and Lewis and Clark
were there three days on thecalendar after I was there.
So I got down to Sioux City andthree days later I came back up
and, with my exploring clothes,stood on the mound 212 years to
(21:47):
the day that Lewis and Clarkstood there.
So it's just all kinds ofstories like that.
It's really amazing to see someof these historical places that
we read about when we're kidsor if we get an interest when
we're adults and explore more.
That was a fascinating part ofthe trip.
(22:08):
Yes, as you know from where youare out in Utah.
I mean, that wasn't the end ofLewis and Clark's trip.
They had to get over themountains, they had to get on
the Columbia, they had to getout to the Pacific before they
came back, but still it was justamazing.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
So the Missouri portion of their trip, that's
that's amazing and I love thefact that the history of it
cause I you know.
Like you said, as a kid Iremember learning about Lewis
and Clark but I just you neverreally realized.
And then it comes to life, whenyou're actually there and
you're in those spots, yeah,what does that do for you when
you're standing in the spot andyou think to yourself this is
(22:43):
Lewis and Clark were here thesame spot on the same day 212
years ago.
What does that do for you?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Exactly.
Well you can imagine.
It's a feeling that's very hardto describe.
It's a mixture between thiscan't be real and wow, these are
goosebumps.
Several places were like that.
Spirit Mound was probably themost, because the mound itself
is not much more than a mound.
It's not very high, it's notvery wide on top, so you can be
(23:12):
sure that you're probablystepping on a place that Lewis
and Clark stepped on.
But the rest of them are stillkind of amazing in the plaques
that are there and all of thedifferent museums and stuff that
go with that.
So it was a huge chapter andadventure in our history and
(23:32):
they made it.
As you probably know, they madeit all the way out and back and
only lost one person for threeyears, which is just amazing.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah, the type of wilderness they're going through
, yeah, that's incredible.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
And given that they were going upstream I mean they
were going, you know, theMissouri River was flowing the
other direction, so their boats,barges and parokes had to be
the whole time they were nearthe shore.
They were sometimes having topull those ships from the shore.
(24:06):
They had sails, but we justdon't even stop to imagine that
crew was.
There were two or three placesthat I just realized.
This journey of discovery,Lewis and Clark's crew was just
an amazing crew.
They were gritty, they werecreative, they were tough.
That stuff I just never eventhought about.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
So you mentioned Spirit Mound.
I want to hear maybe two orthree other places that just
either surprised you about theMissouri or just you know you
had some neat experiences at.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
if you don't mind, no , no, and they don't have to be
Lewis and Clark, do they?
Speaker 1 (24:41):
No, absolutely not Just from your perspective.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, there's a couple other Lewis and Clark run
, but the river itself I meanone of the most interesting
things to me and I guessobviously I did realize this but
actually seeing it.
I mean I'm down here inMissouri and so you know, when
the river flows across Missouriit's in its final stages.
(25:04):
So it's big, it's muddy, itgoes where it wants to.
You know that kind of thing.
But out there in Montana it'sjust so incredibly beautiful
because it starts as a littlestream but it gets to be fairly
quickly a small river.
But combine that with theincredible beauty that's out
(25:26):
there in Montana and the waywatching how the river grows or
grew when I was doing it waspart of the fun and fascination
that I hadn't realized wouldhappen.
I mean, you know theMississippi, you start on it and
you just go straight south, foryou know the whole duration.
But the Missouri goes all overthe place, it winds, it goes
(25:48):
north, it then goes east, thenit goes south, then it goes back
east again, blah, blah, blah,and watching it grow was just
fascinating.
There was a time in Fort Benton, which was already three, four
cities in, I was out walking onemorning and I got to kind of a
nature-y type area.
Nature-y type area and I lookedup and there was a deer
(26:11):
standing there in the river justkind of looking at me.
We looked at each other andfinally, you know it decided
I've had enough of this guy.
So it turned around and boundedoff into the river and I
thought I've never seen a deerswim.
I didn't know they could Welldang Jake.
It never did know they couldWell dang Jake, it never did.
(26:32):
It bounded all the way acrossthe Missouri, never got more
than knee deep.
I mean, that's how shallow itis.
In a lot of the early parts ofthe river it can be very wide or
narrow, but it's almost alwaysshallow most of the time.
So watching that grow wasinteresting.
(26:53):
So that's one interesting thing.
Another really interesting thingabout the river is well, there
are three places on the riverwhere the river goes through a
town, a big city.
That essentially makes it twocities, and two of those three
times they're states.
(27:14):
There's Omaha and there'sCouncil Bluffs Iowa, Omaha,
nebraska essentially one bigcity, but the river goes right
through it.
So it's in two states and youcan probably guess the other one
Kansas City, missouri andKansas City Kansas.
It's just all one hugemetropolitan area but the river
goes right through it.
Well up in the Dakotas.
(27:36):
When I was in Pierre and FortPierre and again that's another
story, luckily I found out inNorth Dakota that they
pronounced that Pierre when Iwas studying in fifth grade I
thought, you know, we thought itwas Pierre and that's the
capital of South Dakota, butanyway it's Pierre.
It splits a smaller city intoPierre and Fort Pierre and it's
(28:01):
not two different states.
But I'll be darned if it isn'ta time, it isn't a time zone
line.
Pierre, the capital, is in thecentral time zone.
Fort Pierre, across the river,is in the mountain time zone.
Fort Peer, across the river, isin the mountain time zone.
That's fascinating that.
The way they handle that, itturns out, is that they stay on
central time in the whole youcan't really call it a metroplex
(28:22):
but in the whole city, exceptfor two fascinating exceptions.
One of them is when they'revoting.
The polls stay open at thetimes in their respective time
zones and the other one is barclosings.
They stick with it the time atbar closings, I don't know why,
(28:46):
maybe so that they can dashacross the river and get another
hour.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
I was going to say let's the mountain time zone
closes, let's run across theriver and get another hour.
I was going to say the mountaintime zone closes, let's run
across the river.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Those three spots on the river that split cities are
just kind of interesting, andparticularly this one where it's
a time zone, and that one also.
I mean, in Kansas Citymetropolitan area.
You can't tell the differencebetween Missouri and Kansas, you
can't tell the differencebetween the cities.
(29:16):
But up there in Pierre and FortPierre it's extremely
interesting because the Pierreside, well, it's a state capital
.
It happens to be the secondsmallest state capital, but it's
a state capital, but it's astate capital, so it has a kind
of a what can you say ametropolitan, cultural,
(29:41):
political feel, whereas FortPierre, on the other side, is
extremely proud of its Westernheritage.
You can tell they're twoentirely different cities.
The Casey Tibbs Rodeo Center isin Fort Pierre National.
I mean, casey Tibbs is I didn'tknow this but he's apparently
to rodeo what Babe Ruth was tobaseball, and so he's over there
(30:01):
and there's all kinds ofhistory involving everything you
can think of, actually of aWestern heritage, and you can
tell the difference between thetwo cities.
You know, when I get on thingslike this I use the word
fascinating too much, but it'sjust fascinating.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Did you ever come across any of the places that
split cities kind of like that,where maybe it was?
I mean, it sounds like that wasa perfect example, but maybe
there's.
You know, on one side they do alot of this type of work and
where the other side maybe theydo this type of work or anything
like that.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yes, I mean it wasn't necessarily a city, but when I
actually, when I was in FortPierre, I had a visit with a guy
there and okay, side tripnumber 34, I pulled out of the
whole trip to put in the book acollection of 12 different what
(30:55):
I call human treasures peoplethat I met that were just
fascinating.
So he was one of them and hetook me out for a drive in yeah,
this was South Dakota, took meout where Dances with Wolves was
filmed.
So you know, if you saw that,you know how wide open that area
(31:16):
is.
And he made two interestingcomments, and the second one
gets to what you're talkingabout.
The first one he said yeah, hesaid people that say there's
nothing to see out here, don'tknow what they're looking at,
which I thought was really kindof interesting.
And as soon as he said that Icould feel it.
I mean this is beautiful, wideopen, miles, wide open country
(31:39):
that you almost can't seeanywhere else in the country.
It's just big.
I mean you look for words.
But the other thing he said isexactly what you asked.
He said the river that goesthrough the Dakotas here.
It may not be a continentaldivide, but it's a cultural
divide.
He said one side of the riveris ranchers, the other side of
(32:03):
the river is farmers, all theway down.
And he said it's just aninteresting cultural divide.
So that's what you're speakingto.
It wasn't really not in aparticular city, this was just
all the way down to the Gulf andeven into Montana.
I mean, when I made this trip Iwas prepared for the scenery, I
was prepared for the history, Iwas a little prepared for the
(32:26):
culture, but I wasn't preparedfor the wonderful people I met
all up and down the river.
So that's what led to this 12,not human interest I call them
human treasure stories and Ifelt bad trying to pick 12, but
people that were just special orwho had done something neat or
you know, fill in the blank.
And almost all of those spokein some way to the culture of
(32:50):
that area.
I knew I'd see different thingsclearly than Missouri or even
Southwest Missouri and theOzarks, but 2,300 miles and it
just was never very much thesame other than the river.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
You bring up a great point, because this is kind of
where I wanted to go next withthis conversation you brought up
.
You say in your book you talkabout 12 unique people or
whatever that you met.
I want people to get the books.
I don't want you to just givethem all away, but maybe an
example of one or two of thesepeople and kind of especially
like the difference from Montanato Missouri.
I mean there's got to be somedifference there.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
I'll give you a couple, but I should probably,
at least until you stop me.
But I should probably startwith almost a confession.
I say there's 12 human stories.
Actually, one of them is a dog.
I love it.
(33:55):
Where was it?
Fort Benton, it was in FortBenton, montana.
And the story?
There's a statue to this dog.
And the dog was just a normalsheep herding dog.
His name was Shep Its owner.
They lived up outside of FortBenton.
The owner got sick and died andthe family back east wanted the
(34:18):
body.
So Shep followed the coffindown to the train.
They loaded the coffin on thetrain, took off.
Shep followed that train forquite a while and then came back
and then Jake, every day Forfive years that dog showed up at
(34:41):
each of the four trainsentering that day, checking
everyone that got off for itsowner.
And it was a couple of yearsbefore the conductor or the
people at the station actuallyrealized this was going on.
They don't know where it stayed.
They finally got it to takesome food, but it wouldn't take
(35:04):
food for a while, but it wouldshow up every day and the story
got spreading.
So it turned out that peoplewould come from back east a
little bit.
I don't know how far it comejust to Fort Benton just to see
Shep greet the train.
So when Shep finally died,which was on a cold day in
(35:26):
January, slipped on the ice andwas on the tracks and was hit by
the train, some people thinkthe dog actually just gave up
because it never found its ownerby this time the story was so
big.
The town had a funeral for it.
The Boy Scouts were thepallbearers.
There's a statue to the dog.
The dog was buried up on a hilloverlooking Fort Benton.
(35:49):
So that was one of the.
I felt like I could stretchthat to a human treasure.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Oh, it's still a human experience and I love that
.
It's a great story, it'samazing, right, and I love
that's a great story.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
It's amazing, but there's.
You know, in south of SiouxCity there's a guy named Butch
Bouvier.
There's a museum there.
I met him.
This guy is a character.
There's a picture of him in thebook and it's classic because
he's almost got a scowl on hisface.
I hardly ever saw him smile,but interesting as heck and he
(36:24):
could fix things.
And he has built endless scalemodels of the various ships that
Lewis and Clark used and he'sgot some of them.
They're in this museum.
It's not just him, but there'sa local Lewis and Clark museum
there that has features all theboats and he's made them.
And almost any time you runinto a scale model of a Lewis
(36:48):
and Clark boat he probably madeit.
There's one in Boonville,missouri, for heaven's sakes.
That surprised me when I gotback to my state in the middle
of the state.
So he's just a fascinatingcharacter and reading that story
will be fun for people.
I'm pausing here because I'mgoing to insert a story.
(37:09):
I'm not sure about time, but itisn't one of the 12 stories,
but one of the most interestingstops on there.
I didn't really have a favoritestop, and that's not just being
diplomatic, it was, they werejust all different.
One of the most surprisingstops for me is when I rolled
into Atchison, kansas.
(37:29):
It was the only Kansas town Istayed in.
It's right on the river.
There's a beautiful picture onthe back cover of the book of
the bridge that's lit up in away that reflects on the river
in such a way that they've gotthe red, white and blue lights
on the bridge, so it looksexactly like an American flag on
(37:50):
the Missouri River at night.
I got there and there are a lotof stories about Atchison, but
I was sitting watching apresentation and I heard a name
that sounded familiar to me.
Long story short, it turns outthat my great-great-grandfather
was one of the 13 co-founders ofAtchison, kansas.
So that was the unique surpriseof the whole trip for me.
(38:13):
I mean, that just blew my mind,and the Atchison people were so
delighted they had a historianthere that helped me track it
down and make sure it really wasmy great-great-grandfather.
So that was that, but anotherone of the treasures.
I forget exactly the town, butI was just getting into.
(38:34):
Well, actually I was about toleave South Dakota and I had a
stop that I had planned fellthrough, so I stayed at a bed
and breakfast there.
And again, the name hasdeserted me right now.
It's a very small town, but itwas so fun to be there.
It was a farm and these twopeople that hosted that were at
(38:56):
the Airbnb.
She was from Switzerland.
Long story, she'd been aforeign exchange student, blah,
blah, blah, and so she ended upback here.
It was so fascinating because Ifelt kind of like, in some
sense, the ugly American,because I almost said I mean, I
was fascinated.
She loved South Dakota and Ihope I was tactful.
(39:19):
But I asked you know what'ssomebody from Switzerland doing
in South Dakota and loving it,you know?
And she laughed and she saidyou know, I get that a lot.
But she had the mostinteresting perspective.
She said, yeah, Switzerland is,you know, we all know it's
beautiful, but all of that partof Europe is.
(39:43):
She didn't use the word scrunchtogether, but she said I can't
get out in the wide open like Ican.
Here I can't see the sunset, andindeed every night she had a
bench and she called it hersunset bench.
She was out.
There's even a picture in thebook sitting there watching the
sunset and I had never thoughtabout the fact that that's an
(40:07):
interesting perspective.
I mean, now she has the room togo where she wants watch the
sunset.
It's so wide open, totallydifferent than Switzerland, but
I think somehow it's almost agreener grass grass greener
perspective.
You know, those of us in theUnited States would love to go
(40:30):
to Switzerland and it isbeautiful.
I've been there, but she had anentirely different perspective
and that was most interesting.
And my last night there sheactually pulled out her guitar
and sang and yodeled for me.
So that was a fun group.
I'm glancing here.
If you've got other questions,fire away.
Otherwise I can tell you somemore of these wonderful people.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Sure no, and I love the fact that the people were so
prominent and so important toyou when this was all said and
done.
I want to ask you about themoment you come into St Louis.
You know the confluence in the.
What was that like, cause youhad just spent seven weeks on
this adventure.
What was that like?
Speaker 2 (41:14):
You.
You've hit it exactly right,jake.
I mean it.
I try to say in the book, andI've got a picture of the
confluence there in the book andI've got a picture of my boot
in each river.
I actually stood in theconfluence there, but it was
such a fascinating feelingbecause A, as you just said, the
river had been my close friendfor seven weeks and this
(41:34):
particular site, that is, theconfluence of the two rivers,
was the site I had to wait thelongest to see.
I had to wait, you know, over 50days to see the end of the
river, and yet it was also mylast day on the road and I also
knew that, you know, four and ahalf hours from now I can be
(41:55):
down I-44 and be home afterseven weeks.
So there was this strange pullbetween having to leave a really
close friend, even if it was ariver, and knowing that I could
be home about the time the sunset.
So, yeah, it was fascinating.
In fact, I had planned to staya day or two in St Louis, but as
(42:18):
I got closer, I just starteddropping a day off Washington,
missouri, which is the lastplace I stayed before St Louis.
I finally decided I can doeverything I want to do in St
Louis in one day and then I canbe home.
So I did.
I hate to confess this, but oneof the things that I loved that
(42:41):
will make people roll theireyes is I loved all the bridges
over the river.
I have pictures of almost everybridge over the river.
So I had it planned that I couldcross all five bridges in St
Louis that cross the river,still get to see the confluence,
go down and get my classicpicture of the St Louis Arch and
then have actually had lunchwith my sister who of the St
(43:01):
Louis arch, and then haveactually had lunch with my
sister who lives in St Louis andthen headed down home.
So you hit that right on thehead.
It was just a fascinatingfeeling.
That just torn?
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Yeah, I was going to say, was there kind of almost a
sense of I don't know if theword is sadness, but almost like
, like you said it was, that wasyour friend for the last seven
weeks and it was it wasmelancholy and yet it was.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
There was also this not just getting to be home, but
there was also this sense of,in some way, achievement.
You know, I just finishedfollowing the Missouri, from
start to finish.
I survived.
Very early in the trip Iwondered about that.
So, yeah, you're right, I thinkmelancholy is one word, but
(43:47):
also not really sadness.
Yeah, I don't know.
Partly I guess maybe there wassome sadness because I was
leaving a good friend, but therewas also this achievement and
also this desire to know that Ican be home this evening.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Absolutely.
Yeah, that's got to be a goodfeeling as well, kind of that
mix.
It's just, yeah, kind of arange of emotions.
Yeah, that's incredible.
So it's been nine years sinceyou did this.
It sounds like you stillreflect on it.
How has it affected your lifesince then?
I mean, do you still thinkabout that time and things that
happened?
Oh, affected your life since?
Speaker 2 (44:20):
then I mean, do you still think about that time and
things that happened?
I do almost in a way, almost ofnecessity, jake.
When I got back, of course,then the book did indeed develop
.
It's a coffee table style book.
I took all of the pictures inthere.
There's about 200 pictures.
There's all the stories.
There's a section on the citiesI visited seven states and 27
cities.
There's side trips, there's asection on Lewis and Clark and
(44:42):
there's a section on the humantreasures.
So I finished that and so thenit was out there.
Well, then you start contactingrotaries and libraries and all
of them are as interested in thetrip as the fun we're having
here, and so I enjoyed doingthat, because every time I did
(45:02):
it I got to take the trip again.
So yeah, I have, indeed it'sbeen with me more than I
realized over nine years.
But I think the thing thatsticks with me is it was just I
don't know how to say this Iexpected the adventure.
I already told you.
(45:24):
You know, I knew the scenerythere'd be scenery.
I knew there'd be.
You know, blah, blah, blah.
I just didn't realize it wasgoing to be the adventure of a
lifetime with a capital A.
It just was amazing.
It's hard to describe, but yeah, so it has stuck with me in a
variety of ways.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
All right, you got to tell me about the book a little
bit then, because it soundslike now, when you went into the
experience, was the thought, oh, I'm going to create a book out
of this, or did that kind ofcome as you went and then just
tell me about the name of thebook.
All that good stuff.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Great question.
It's a little tiny bit of both.
You remember I mentioned thegal that wrote the book on the
Mississippi.
Well, she started this wholething.
Turns out she lives inSpringfield, which is an hour
north of here, and so I actuallygot to visit with her.
But I had also touched basewith her before I left and I
(46:18):
knew that she had written thisbook and her publisher was in
eastern Missouri over near StLouis.
So I actually did contact thosepeople before I left and they
were interested, said yes, thatwould go well with Gail's book.
You know we won't make anypromises but contact.
(46:41):
So and I had already decided.
I mean that actually came upafter I had decided I'm going to
make this trip.
So I knew I was going to makethe trip book or not.
But when I got back, like I sayI'm a camera nut and people say
I take good pictures and I havea good eye and I don't really
(47:02):
view myself as a photographer,but I had the pictures and I and
I kept not a very good one, butI kept a log and it had just
enough information at each citythat I.
I mean there's it's not a hugebook, a couple of hundred pages
or something coffee table style.
So I didn't.
I didn't spend a long timetalking about each city, so I
(47:25):
had enough in my notes to dothat, hit the high points and
the interesting points and so on.
So it developed pretty quicklyand it has done fairly well, so
I'm pleased about that.
I didn't take it for the book,if that makes sense.
I took the trip for the trip.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah, that makes total sense.
You have the idea that, hey,maybe I'll do this, I'll take
some pictures along the way, butyou were going to do the
adventure regardless.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
It sounds like that was going to be your thing,
that's true, I think that helpedthe book because I wasn't doing
things for the book.
But people tell me that theadventure came through to them
as they were reading, thatbetween the pictures and the
descriptions.
And I have kind of aninteresting style.
I'm not a professional writer,but people say they felt like
(48:13):
they were on the trip with me,so I view that as-.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Love that, yeah Well, and I'm excited to get my hands
on the book.
What is the name of the bookand where can people find it?
Speaker 2 (48:22):
The book is Rolling Down the River.
That's kind of funny too,because my first thought was to
title it Rolling on the Riverand the publisher said you need
to name it Rolling Down theRiver because if people Google
rolling on the river, they'regoing to get 15 selections of
the song before they ever get toyour book.
(48:42):
That was right.
Yeah, it's called that andthere's a subtitle.
It's something like.
I don't remember it.
Well, yes, I do remember itexactly Discovering people and
places along the mighty Missouri.
So there it is.
Yeah, if people are interestedin it.
I'm not a salesperson and Idon't twist arms, but if people
(49:05):
are interested, I will give thema special Jake the Podcaster
price and I will sign it forthem and I will split the
postage with them.
If you want to have themcontact me.
It's fine to give out my email.
I think you'd be able to putthat on at the end of this, if
you want.
And they can just email.
In fact, I think you have mycard and all the well.
(49:27):
You have all the information.
I don't care if you put myphone number either, so they can
contact me.
I'll be glad to hook them up.
They can get it.
I mean, it's on Amazon, it's onmost places and a lot of people
like to do that, but if theycontact me then I'll give them a
better price.
That's on Amazon and they can'tget it signed on Amazon.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
Exactly.
So yeah, hey, that's a greatopportunity to get it signed,
and I'm hoping you'll sign mycopy as well.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
I will, indeed, I will and I'll get it in the mail
as soon as you send me youraddress Ah, perfect, I love it.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
This has been fascinating.
I didn't know anything, hardly,about the Missouri River.
I knew it went into theMississippi.
That was about it.
I knew St Louis was kind of thespot.
I didn't even know what startedin Montana.
So there's so much I learnedtalking to you and just the
people that you came across andthe experiences Amazing.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
You know the Missouri flows into the Mississippi
there at St Louis.
But there is some debate and Iam among the people that
consider that it's the Missourithat flows all the way to the
Gulf and the Mississippi thatflows into it.
Speaker 1 (50:35):
Flows into that.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
I don't get a lot of people that agree, but there is
some scholarly debate about that.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
So you got a love for the Missouri, so I can see why
you, you know, and I don't know,I'm not.
I'm not joining either side onthat one, but I love the fact
that you you think like that.
I love that.
That's, that's fun, yeah.
So my last question I want toask we've been talking for a
while and this has been, oh,this has been amazing.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
But my last question I alwayslike to ask people, because
Journey with Jake it's about you, but it's also about adventure,
and you had quite the adventure.
(51:04):
So, in your mind, larry, whatdoes the word adventure mean to
you?
Speaker 2 (51:09):
Oh my, I'm usually prepared for almost any question
.
That's a good one.
Adventure is an extraordinaryI'm splitting that up on purpose
happening in which one pursuesand discovers several unknown
(51:31):
things, not only about theenvironment but about themselves
.
Usually I'm wordy, but thatshort sentence will have to do
it.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
That's perfect.
I love it, Larry.
Larry, thank you so much forjoining me on Journey with Jake.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
Thank you, Jake.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
A huge thank you to Larry Campbell for sharing his
incredible journey along theMissouri River.
I love doing this podcast andit's because of adventurous
souls like Larry who inspire uswith their stories.
Thank you, larry.
As he mentioned, he's offeringa special Journey with Jake
discount on his book RollingDown the River.
Just shoot him an email Hiscontact info is in the show
(52:07):
notes or feel free to message meon Instagram or email at
jakeatjourneywithjakenet andI'll gladly connect you with him
.
I just received my copy in themail and let me tell you it's a
beautiful book filled with greatstories and stunning photos.
One that really stuck with mewas about Shep the dog such a
touching reflection.
I can't recommend this bookenough.
(52:27):
You can also learn more at hiswebsite, larryncampbellcom.
And to all of you, my journeywith Jakers.
I'm still trying that one out.
Thank you for tuning in eachweek.
It truly means the world to me.
If you're enjoying the show.
I'd love it if you left arating and review on Apple
Podcasts or Spotify, or if youjust share it with a friend or
(52:48):
family member.
Next week episode is anotherpowerful one.
I had the chance to speak withBrooke King, an incredible woman
navigating thyroid cancer whilestill embracing wild and unique
adventures like hitchhikingtrains through the Sahara and
visiting a floating grocerystore.
You won't want to miss it.
Just remember it's not alwaysabout the destination as it is
(53:10):
about the journey.
Take care everybody, thank you.
According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, the
word fascinating means extremelyinteresting or charming.
That's exactly how my guest,larry Campbell, describes his
unforgettable journey along theMissouri River.
Back in the summer of 2016,larry spent seven weeks
traveling by car from theriver's source at Three Forks,
montana, all the way to itsmeeting point with the
(00:21):
Mississippi in St Louis.
Along the way, he didn't justdiscover history and scenery, he
found a friend in the riveritself.
Join us as Larry shares storiesfrom this fascinating adventure
and the connection he formedwith one of America's greatest
rivers.
Welcome to Journey with Jake.
This is a podcast aboutadventure and how, through our
adventures, we can overcome thechallenges of life that come our
(00:44):
way.
While I expect you will learnsome things about different
adventures, this show willentertain you.
Each episode will featuredifferent guests or guests as
they share experiences andstories from the different
adventures they have been on.
Not only will you beentertained, but you'll also
hear the failures and trialseach guest faces and what they
have done or are doing toovercome the hardships that come
(01:06):
their way.
My goal is to take each of uson a journey through the
experiences of my guests, withthe hope that you'll be
entertained and inspired toovercome your day-to-day
challenges.
After all, it's not all aboutthe destination as it is about
(01:29):
the journey.
Hello everyone and welcome tothe show.
I'm Jake Bushman, host ofJourney with Jake.
Today, I have the pleasure ofintroducing you to Larry
Campbell, author of Rolling Downthe River Discovering People
and Places Along the MightyMissouri.
In our conversation, larryshares the story of his
(01:51):
seven-week adventure down theMissouri River and he likes to
describe it fascinating and,trust me, it really is.
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(02:13):
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(02:34):
Explore more great shows atpodmatchcom forward slash
network.
I feel incredibly lucky to haveconversations like the one
you're about to hear.
I feel incredibly lucky to haveconversations like the one
you're about to hear.
I didn't know much about theMissouri River before speaking
with Larry, but his storiesreally opened my eyes to the
beauty, history and spirit ofthis iconic waterway.
(02:54):
If you enjoy this episode, Ialso recommend checking out
episode 156 with Chris Nance,where we talked about life on
the Mississippi River.
All right, let's jump into myconversation with Larry Campbell
.
All right, I'm excited.
Today I have Larry Campbellwith me.
Larry, welcome to Journey withJake.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Thank you, Jake.
I think it's going to be fun.
I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Absolutely.
I'm excited, too, because we'regoing to talk about something
you did back in the summer of2016.
You explored the length of theMissouri River.
I didn't know much about theMissouri River I did a little
investigation on it a little bitbut I'm excited to hear even
some facts about the MissouriRiver and things like that, plus
just your adventure and who youare.
Before we jump into your wholeadventure that you did that
(03:37):
summer, I want to know a littlebit about who you are, kind of
some of your background, whereyou're from, kind of where you
grew up and what you've been upto.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I'm from Missouri.
I right now live in Branson,missouri, which is in the
southwest corner and theentertainment capital of the
country nowadays liveentertainment.
I grew up near Kansas City,went to a small liberal arts
college and I don't want yourviewers to turn and run before
they hear but I was a math majorand I taught for 35 years at
(04:05):
two different colleges anduniversities in math and math
education.
So I retired a while ago,that's all I'll say.
And I retired a tiny bit earlybecause I still felt like I was
young enough to do some otherthings and I didn't know what
those other things were yet.
(04:26):
And in, oh, sometime around 2015, I got a phone call from a
friend, a friend of a friend,who said I got a book you might
want to look at or read.
There's a gal that followed theMississippi from start to
finish and she lives here inSpringfield, which is only about
an hour north.
It's a really good book and Ican remember at that time.
(04:49):
I remember the thought passingthrough my head wouldn't it be
fun to do that on the Missouri?
And I thought it was just apassing thought.
Well, it passed, but it cameback, grabbed me by the throat
and just you know, kind ofyelled at me until I started
following through.
So I started writing letters tochambers of commerce along the
(05:11):
river, got a lot of goodresponses.
A lot of them were even willingto put me up if I would visit
their town.
So that's how it got started.
I may have gotten into that tooearly.
I'd be glad to tell you anymore of the boring details of my
pre-life if you want.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Yeah, no, that's interesting.
So you're a math professor foryears.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yes, I taught at a small liberal arts college here
near Branson and there I taughteverything, all the math, and I
liked that.
When I moved north to the stateone of the state universities,
then I was in a more narrow slotand I taught math education and
worked with future teachersmore.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Gotcha.
Okay, so you're a math guy,which I'm totally not a math guy
.
Yeah, so you read a book about.
You read a book about somebodywho went along the Mississippi,
kind of from start to finish.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
What was it about that that sparked the interest?
I mean it just you know.
Have you done anything likethat before?
Speaker 2 (06:09):
No, so I'm not exactly sure I could answer that
.
It was just something like wow,I bet that wouldn't that be a
fun adventure.
And you know, here I am retiredWouldn't that be fun to do on
the Missouri River?
And I, like, I say I just Ijust thought it was, wouldn't
that be fun to do on theMissouri River?
And, like I say, I just thoughtit was a wouldn't that be fun
type of thought.
And the more it kept stickingaround.
(06:31):
My son, who is the realadventurer, heard about that and
could tell I was semi-seriousand kind of kept a foot in my
rear to move me along andoffered to help some.
So before I knew it, it was tomove me along and offered to
help some.
So before I knew it, it wassummer of 2016 and I was headed
north and then west out toMontana to get started.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Wow, okay, and you mentioned, you mentioned son.
So yeah, you married kids.
What's kind of your family?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
situation yeah, I'm married.
I've been married for 56 yearsnow.
Congratulations 56 years nowCongratulations.
We always like to joke.
We've been married 53 years and53 out of 56 isn't bad.
But yeah, and we have two kids.
They are no longer kids.
They are both married and doingwell in their respective fields
(07:18):
, and we get to see them everyso often.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Good deal.
Good for you, wow.
Okay To start this journey,though.
You're like okay, I'm going togo trek along the Mississippi,
missouri river, excuse me, theMissouri river.
You said you reached out tolike chamber of commerce and you
reached out and you did so.
You did some pre-work.
You didn't just say I'm justgoing to go and drive along and
see where I end up.
You kind of had some plans.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, there's a fine line there.
I did reach out to Chambersbecause I wanted to semi-plan
the trip.
I wanted to see if they're.
You know, missouri River is aheck of a long river, so I
wanted some local people thatcould tell me stops to make and
what to visit when I was there,and so on.
(08:01):
So I reached out and, like Isaid, I got a really good
response from Chambers.
It was almost more of a matterof picking the ones that would
be a nice distance apart and soon, as opposed to trying to
scramble up things, andparticularly those particular
(08:22):
river towns and cities of allsizes, I might add, all the way
down, all the way from St Louisand Kansas City, all the way
down to not quite villages butalmost, as I say, about half of
them not only said we'd be happyto host you, you know, and we
will even put you up in our fillin the blank.
(08:42):
That was fun.
Put you up in our fill in theblank, that was fun.
And once I got that settled,then I started setting out and
planning and setting some datesand when I'd arrive.
And that's both good news andbad news, like I started to say,
because I did want to have sometime to explore on my own kind
of in each city, and that's afine balance, because some of
(09:05):
the towns were so wonderfullyeager to help that they had
things all planned for me youneed to go talk to this guy, you
need to see this spot, and soon.
So there were a couple of timesthat I actually had to say I
appreciate that, but I'd like tobe out for a half a day on my
(09:26):
own exploring.
So it worked out pretty well.
You can't just, you know, ifyou're lined up with 27 cities
which I was and you're arrivingat one city on day X, you can't
show up on day X plus one, andso on.
So you've got a little bit ofstructure there, but within
those cities and that structureI tried to build in some time to
(09:49):
explore on my own or do whatgrabbed me or whatever.
So it turned out to work fairlywell.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Good deal, yeah.
So you had to have a little bitof structure, just especially
because some of these people arewilling to put you up and you
got to take advantage of that.
You got to be courteous of themand say and it's not like.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
It's not like the people and the places they were
suggesting weren't wonderfulsuggestions, you know, because
they were.
They were the people that knewthe river, or or the places that
I couldn't miss, or the Lewisand Clark sites are are fill in
the blank.
It's just like I said.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
I wanted to have a feeling of exploring myself at
times.
Okay, so just kind of anoverview of it.
First of all, how long did thistake you to do and how many
miles is it approximatelyroughly?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
I'm going to do that in reverse order.
It's approximately 2,300 miles.
It's a little over that.
I can't remember and part ofthat depends on something I'll
probably get into later wherethe real source of the river is,
but I left myself some time toget out there and I started from
(10:54):
Three Forks, montana, which iswhere the official source of the
river is, on July 31st, slashAugust 1st, and then it took me
51 days, which is a little overseven weeks from start to finish
, to make it all the way down towhere it flows into the
Mississippi, near St Louis, justnorth of St Louis.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
So 50, some odd days, seven weeks approximately.
You said you've been marriedfor 56 years, but you did this
solo right.
You went on your own.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I did it solo and actually you bring up a good
point.
I mean, my wife and I talkedabout that and we both decided
it was better that I take thetrip myself.
We each view and like differentkinds of things, so we could
envision her wanting to do thison one day, me wanting to do
something else, and so on, andshe said, well, it's your
(11:51):
adventure.
She was really good about it.
It's your adventure.
You possibly have a book comingout of it, which I did, and you
should go by yourself.
But she was very supportivefrom the sidelines.
In fact, there were a couple oftimes early on, when I was
still in Montana and looking atsix and a half weeks ahead of me
, that I wondered what have Igot myself into?
And she was very good alsoabout, you know, kicking me in
(12:12):
the rear and saying you're goingto do this.
It was, you know, it'll be alot of fun and you'll look back
on it.
So, yeah, that worked well.
That's a good question.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Good, so you had good support from afar.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yes, yes, a good question, good.
So you had good support fromafar, yes, yes, and from a lot
of friends that knew I was outthere and I was just beginning.
I have kind of a bi-weeklymailing that it's a cross
between a blog and high pointsand things to smile about and
some of my pictures, so I hadpeople following me.
I kept a weekly report, kind ofthing that I had.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Okay, nice Very good.
Okay, good for you, that's agood way to do it.
Okay, so you said Montana andyou said the official source.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, that's one of my favorite stories and it kind
of combines two things at once.
First of all, one of theextreme surprises to me.
I mean I guess I would haveflunked geography but it turns
out that the Missouri Riverstarts by flowing north.
That just was socounterintuitive to me and for,
(13:17):
in fact, of the five cities Iwas in Montana, I was still
going north on four of them.
And the reason that enters isbecause when Lewis and Clark
were on that stretch of theriver they were then going south
and this was they wereapproaching their second winter
on the river.
They were still looking to getto the end of the river, find
(13:40):
the Shoshone Indians, get someponies and get west over the
mountains.
Before they either froze orstarved to death.
They were not in an exploringmood when they finally got to
Three Forks.
Three Forks in Montana gets itsname because that's where three
tributaries come together atonce.
Typically, lewis and Clarkwould explore every confluence
(14:05):
that came up, because and that'sanother story we may or may not
get into there was a time theyalmost took the wrong fork and
so they didn't really have timeto explore there in that real
sense of finding out where theriver really starts.
Their approach was to actuallyjust name all three creeks,
(14:26):
tributaries, whatever.
There was the Jefferson and theMadison.
I forgot the third one.
It's just gone.
But Jefferson and Madison wereboth in the.
I mean Jefferson was thepresident sent them.
Madison was in the cabinet.
The other person was too, andthat name has slipped my mind
cabinet.
The other person was too, andthat name has slipped my mind.
(14:47):
Yeah, so that was theirapproach.
So it turns out that the MiddleFork is actually the real
Missouri.
I mean, you have to follow thatfor another 150 miles and I
really wanted to see that.
So I set aside a half a daywhile I was in Three Forks.
It's a good thing Lewis andClark didn't explore that,
because it took me most of amorning to get up there and it's
(15:09):
over 150 miles, but I did finda little.
Finally, something's calledHell Roaring Creek, where the
water has come down out of themountains and that's the real
start of the Missouri.
That also gets into some of thequestions.
It's so close in length to theMississippi and, depending on
(15:29):
the numbers that you have, thatgets into the argument about
which river is actually longer,because if you add 150 to 200
miles of the real river, thenthe Missouri is longer.
Some people will say theMississippi is longer, if you
don't add that.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Interesting Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
But Three Forks is where the river officially
starts and that's where Istarted from after I found the
real source.
So interesting.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
That's it's.
It's amazing.
And the funny part is I, youknow, I used to live in Ohio, so
I was along the Ohio river,there, you know, and I knew the
Ohio river and I knew theMissouri Ohio river.
There, you know, and I knew theOhio river and I knew the
Missouri river.
They, you know, joined into theMississippi and but I didn't
know much about the Missouririver.
I knew the state of Missouri.
I did not even realize that itstarts in Montana.
I had no idea.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
To be honest, that's the way I was too, cause I just
never thought about it.
You know, I'm sitting down herein Southwest Missouri and I I
thought, you know if I, if Iever thought about it I thought,
well, ok, it starts up theresomewhere in Nebraska and makes
its way down, but but no it?
It not only in in westernMontana is where it starts.
But again, it just floored me.
It flows, it flows north tostart, and by the time it turns
(16:40):
east, over to the Dakotas,you're within, almost always
within 50 to 125 miles of Canada, so it's just different.
And then it goes over and flowsstraight down through the
middle of the Dakotas and thenit borders Kansas and Missouri
and Iowa and Nebraska, and thenKansas City cuts hard to the
(17:03):
east, over to St Louis, on itslast few miles through my state.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
The fact that it flows north for a little bit.
That blew me away too.
I was kind of looking at a map,kind of following along, and
I'm like, wait a minute, I'mgoing south now, which means the
river's got to.
It just blew me away.
I was like, wow, I did notrealize that.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I mean, I, you know and again I'm repeating myself,
but that becomes moreinteresting as you think about
how it involves history and theLewis and Clark trip.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
So yeah, talk about that a little bit.
Lewis, talk about Lewis andClark a little bit, because you
know people from our history.
We know we've heard of Lewisand Clark and I know they did a
lot of exploring, did you?
Was there a lot of like Lewisand Clark sites that you saw
along the way?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah, just a lot.
And that brings up aninteresting point, jake.
When I started the trip,everyone more or less asked me
so you're doing Lewis and Clarkin reverse, right?
And so in some sense thatanswer was yes.
But it's a different question.
I had to decide am I going downthe river looking at Lewis and
(18:07):
Clark sites, or am I going downthe river, exploring the river
itself and taking the Lewis andClark sites as they happen to
come up, if that makes sense?
And I finally decided no, I'mfollowing the Missouri River,
and places of Lewis and Clarkwill just be icing on the cake.
Well, you can't go 10 feet onthe Missouri River without
(18:30):
running into Lewis and Clark.
So I developed just a.
You know, when you're in fifthgrade and you study that kind of
stuff, it's interesting thentoo.
But to be at some of theseplaces and realize, you know,
lewis and Clark walked here,it's just a really fascinating
feeling.
And I, you know I've got threeor four stories to go with that,
(18:53):
but it was just amazing.
It starts out as kind of a joke, but the truth to it, I mean,
is surprising.
Mean is surprising.
Almost every time I'd come intoa town it seems like there
would be a plaque somewhere intown that said the Lewis and
Clark adventure almost endedhere, because and there was so
(19:18):
much truth to all of that, Imean one time in particular it's
actually called the Bad River,but where the Bad River flows
into Missouri, in Pier and FortPier, south Dakota, there was a
huge close call with the SiouxIndians.
I mean, lewis and Clark hadbeen worried about them before
(19:38):
they left.
They're the most aggressive ofall the tribes.
There was some concern aboutwhether they'd even let them
continue on the trip, and Iwon't go into a lot of detail
unless we have time later.
But the trip really did almostend there.
It got to the point where theymet with three tribes, took them
back to the shore Somehow.
(20:00):
The Indians were insulted,either by a language
misunderstanding or thinkingthat gifts that Jefferson had
for them were trinkets.
All of a sudden the Indians haddrawn their arrows.
The cannons were set up on theship.
I mean, the guns were set up onthe ship.
(20:20):
It could have ended right thereand luckily one of the Indian
chiefs stepped in and BlackBuffalo and calmed things down.
They still held them, so tospeak, for two days before they
let them go on, and so there'sall kinds of stories like that
(20:40):
and all kinds of places.
Vermilion, south Dakota, a placecalled Spirit Mound, is just a
huge hill in the middle ofnowhere.
It's one of the places that weknow for sure that Lewis and
Clark walked because it's intheir journal, and when I came
through South Dakota they saidyou've got to see that place.
(21:02):
So I stopped and looked, but Ihad made a rotary presentation.
So I was in my nicer clothesnot my river exploring clothes
and I looked at one of theinterpretive plaques and it said
Lewis and Clark were here onsuch and such a date I think it
was August 12th, but I couldn'tbe wrong.
(21:22):
But I noticed that I was thereas I was going through to Sioux
City, iowa, which was only anhour away, and Lewis and Clark
were there three days on thecalendar after I was there.
So I got down to Sioux City andthree days later I came back up
and, with my exploring clothes,stood on the mound 212 years to
(21:47):
the day that Lewis and Clarkstood there.
So it's just all kinds ofstories like that.
It's really amazing to see someof these historical places that
we read about when we're kidsor if we get an interest when
we're adults and explore more.
That was a fascinating part ofthe trip.
(22:08):
Yes, as you know from where youare out in Utah.
I mean, that wasn't the end ofLewis and Clark's trip.
They had to get over themountains, they had to get on
the Columbia, they had to getout to the Pacific before they
came back, but still it was justamazing.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
So the Missouri portion of their trip, that's
that's amazing and I love thefact that the history of it
cause I you know.
Like you said, as a kid Iremember learning about Lewis
and Clark but I just you neverreally realized.
And then it comes to life, whenyou're actually there and
you're in those spots, yeah,what does that do for you when
you're standing in the spot andyou think to yourself this is
(22:43):
Lewis and Clark were here thesame spot on the same day 212
years ago.
What does that do for you?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Exactly.
Well you can imagine.
It's a feeling that's very hardto describe.
It's a mixture between thiscan't be real and wow, these are
goosebumps.
Several places were like that.
Spirit Mound was probably themost, because the mound itself
is not much more than a mound.
It's not very high, it's notvery wide on top, so you can be
(23:12):
sure that you're probablystepping on a place that Lewis
and Clark stepped on.
But the rest of them are stillkind of amazing in the plaques
that are there and all of thedifferent museums and stuff that
go with that.
So it was a huge chapter andadventure in our history and
(23:32):
they made it.
As you probably know, they madeit all the way out and back and
only lost one person for threeyears, which is just amazing.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah, the type of wilderness they're going through
, yeah, that's incredible.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
And given that they were going upstream I mean they
were going, you know, theMissouri River was flowing the
other direction, so their boats,barges and parokes had to be
the whole time they were nearthe shore.
They were sometimes having topull those ships from the shore.
(24:06):
They had sails, but we justdon't even stop to imagine that
crew was.
There were two or three placesthat I just realized.
This journey of discovery,Lewis and Clark's crew was just
an amazing crew.
They were gritty, they werecreative, they were tough.
That stuff I just never eventhought about.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
So you mentioned Spirit Mound.
I want to hear maybe two orthree other places that just
either surprised you about theMissouri or just you know you
had some neat experiences at.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
if you don't mind, no , no, and they don't have to be
Lewis and Clark, do they?
Speaker 1 (24:41):
No, absolutely not Just from your perspective.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, there's a couple other Lewis and Clark run
, but the river itself I meanone of the most interesting
things to me and I guessobviously I did realize this but
actually seeing it.
I mean I'm down here inMissouri and so you know, when
the river flows across Missouriit's in its final stages.
(25:04):
So it's big, it's muddy, itgoes where it wants to.
You know that kind of thing.
But out there in Montana it'sjust so incredibly beautiful
because it starts as a littlestream but it gets to be fairly
quickly a small river.
But combine that with theincredible beauty that's out
(25:26):
there in Montana and the waywatching how the river grows or
grew when I was doing it waspart of the fun and fascination
that I hadn't realized wouldhappen.
I mean, you know theMississippi, you start on it and
you just go straight south, foryou know the whole duration.
But the Missouri goes all overthe place, it winds, it goes
(25:48):
north, it then goes east, thenit goes south, then it goes back
east again, blah, blah, blah,and watching it grow was just
fascinating.
There was a time in Fort Benton, which was already three, four
cities in, I was out walking onemorning and I got to kind of a
nature-y type area.
Nature-y type area and I lookedup and there was a deer
(26:11):
standing there in the river justkind of looking at me.
We looked at each other andfinally, you know it decided
I've had enough of this guy.
So it turned around and boundedoff into the river and I
thought I've never seen a deerswim.
I didn't know they could Welldang Jake.
It never did know they couldWell dang Jake, it never did.
(26:32):
It bounded all the way acrossthe Missouri, never got more
than knee deep.
I mean, that's how shallow itis.
In a lot of the early parts ofthe river it can be very wide or
narrow, but it's almost alwaysshallow most of the time.
So watching that grow wasinteresting.
(26:53):
So that's one interesting thing.
Another really interesting thingabout the river is well, there
are three places on the riverwhere the river goes through a
town, a big city.
That essentially makes it twocities, and two of those three
times they're states.
(27:14):
There's Omaha and there'sCouncil Bluffs Iowa, Omaha,
nebraska essentially one bigcity, but the river goes right
through it.
So it's in two states and youcan probably guess the other one
Kansas City, missouri andKansas City Kansas.
It's just all one hugemetropolitan area but the river
goes right through it.
Well up in the Dakotas.
(27:36):
When I was in Pierre and FortPierre and again that's another
story, luckily I found out inNorth Dakota that they
pronounced that Pierre when Iwas studying in fifth grade I
thought, you know, we thought itwas Pierre and that's the
capital of South Dakota, butanyway it's Pierre.
It splits a smaller city intoPierre and Fort Pierre and it's
(28:01):
not two different states.
But I'll be darned if it isn'ta time, it isn't a time zone
line.
Pierre, the capital, is in thecentral time zone.
Fort Pierre, across the river,is in the mountain time zone.
Fort Peer, across the river, isin the mountain time zone.
That's fascinating that.
The way they handle that, itturns out, is that they stay on
central time in the whole youcan't really call it a metroplex
(28:22):
but in the whole city, exceptfor two fascinating exceptions.
One of them is when they'revoting.
The polls stay open at thetimes in their respective time
zones and the other one is barclosings.
They stick with it the time atbar closings, I don't know why,
(28:46):
maybe so that they can dashacross the river and get another
hour.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
I was going to say let's the mountain time zone
closes, let's run across theriver and get another hour.
I was going to say the mountaintime zone closes, let's run
across the river.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Those three spots on the river that split cities are
just kind of interesting, andparticularly this one where it's
a time zone, and that one also.
I mean, in Kansas Citymetropolitan area.
You can't tell the differencebetween Missouri and Kansas, you
can't tell the differencebetween the cities.
(29:16):
But up there in Pierre and FortPierre it's extremely
interesting because the Pierreside, well, it's a state capital
.
It happens to be the secondsmallest state capital, but it's
a state capital, but it's astate capital, so it has a kind
of a what can you say ametropolitan, cultural,
(29:41):
political feel, whereas FortPierre, on the other side, is
extremely proud of its Westernheritage.
You can tell they're twoentirely different cities.
The Casey Tibbs Rodeo Center isin Fort Pierre National.
I mean, casey Tibbs is I didn'tknow this but he's apparently
to rodeo what Babe Ruth was tobaseball, and so he's over there
(30:01):
and there's all kinds ofhistory involving everything you
can think of, actually of aWestern heritage, and you can
tell the difference between thetwo cities.
You know, when I get on thingslike this I use the word
fascinating too much, but it'sjust fascinating.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Did you ever come across any of the places that
split cities kind of like that,where maybe it was?
I mean, it sounds like that wasa perfect example, but maybe
there's.
You know, on one side they do alot of this type of work and
where the other side maybe theydo this type of work or anything
like that.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yes, I mean it wasn't necessarily a city, but when I
actually, when I was in FortPierre, I had a visit with a guy
there and okay, side tripnumber 34, I pulled out of the
whole trip to put in the book acollection of 12 different what
(30:55):
I call human treasures peoplethat I met that were just
fascinating.
So he was one of them and hetook me out for a drive in yeah,
this was South Dakota, took meout where Dances with Wolves was
filmed.
So you know, if you saw that,you know how wide open that area
(31:16):
is.
And he made two interestingcomments, and the second one
gets to what you're talkingabout.
The first one he said yeah, hesaid people that say there's
nothing to see out here, don'tknow what they're looking at,
which I thought was really kindof interesting.
And as soon as he said that Icould feel it.
I mean this is beautiful, wideopen, miles, wide open country
(31:39):
that you almost can't seeanywhere else in the country.
It's just big.
I mean you look for words.
But the other thing he said isexactly what you asked.
He said the river that goesthrough the Dakotas here.
It may not be a continentaldivide, but it's a cultural
divide.
He said one side of the riveris ranchers, the other side of
(32:03):
the river is farmers, all theway down.
And he said it's just aninteresting cultural divide.
So that's what you're speakingto.
It wasn't really not in aparticular city, this was just
all the way down to the Gulf andeven into Montana.
I mean, when I made this trip Iwas prepared for the scenery, I
was prepared for the history, Iwas a little prepared for the
(32:26):
culture, but I wasn't preparedfor the wonderful people I met
all up and down the river.
So that's what led to this 12,not human interest I call them
human treasure stories and Ifelt bad trying to pick 12, but
people that were just special orwho had done something neat or
you know, fill in the blank.
And almost all of those spokein some way to the culture of
(32:50):
that area.
I knew I'd see different thingsclearly than Missouri or even
Southwest Missouri and theOzarks, but 2,300 miles and it
just was never very much thesame other than the river.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
You bring up a great point, because this is kind of
where I wanted to go next withthis conversation you brought up
.
You say in your book you talkabout 12 unique people or
whatever that you met.
I want people to get the books.
I don't want you to just givethem all away, but maybe an
example of one or two of thesepeople and kind of especially
like the difference from Montanato Missouri.
I mean there's got to be somedifference there.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
I'll give you a couple, but I should probably,
at least until you stop me.
But I should probably startwith almost a confession.
I say there's 12 human stories.
Actually, one of them is a dog.
I love it.
(33:55):
Where was it?
Fort Benton, it was in FortBenton, montana.
And the story?
There's a statue to this dog.
And the dog was just a normalsheep herding dog.
His name was Shep Its owner.
They lived up outside of FortBenton.
The owner got sick and died andthe family back east wanted the
(34:18):
body.
So Shep followed the coffindown to the train.
They loaded the coffin on thetrain, took off.
Shep followed that train forquite a while and then came back
and then Jake, every day Forfive years that dog showed up at
(34:41):
each of the four trainsentering that day, checking
everyone that got off for itsowner.
And it was a couple of yearsbefore the conductor or the
people at the station actuallyrealized this was going on.
They don't know where it stayed.
They finally got it to takesome food, but it wouldn't take
(35:04):
food for a while, but it wouldshow up every day and the story
got spreading.
So it turned out that peoplewould come from back east a
little bit.
I don't know how far it comejust to Fort Benton just to see
Shep greet the train.
So when Shep finally died,which was on a cold day in
(35:26):
January, slipped on the ice andwas on the tracks and was hit by
the train, some people thinkthe dog actually just gave up
because it never found its ownerby this time the story was so
big.
The town had a funeral for it.
The Boy Scouts were thepallbearers.
There's a statue to the dog.
The dog was buried up on a hilloverlooking Fort Benton.
(35:49):
So that was one of the.
I felt like I could stretchthat to a human treasure.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Oh, it's still a human experience and I love that
.
It's a great story, it'samazing, right, and I love
that's a great story.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
It's amazing, but there's.
You know, in south of SiouxCity there's a guy named Butch
Bouvier.
There's a museum there.
I met him.
This guy is a character.
There's a picture of him in thebook and it's classic because
he's almost got a scowl on hisface.
I hardly ever saw him smile,but interesting as heck and he
(36:24):
could fix things.
And he has built endless scalemodels of the various ships that
Lewis and Clark used and he'sgot some of them.
They're in this museum.
It's not just him, but there'sa local Lewis and Clark museum
there that has features all theboats and he's made them.
And almost any time you runinto a scale model of a Lewis
(36:48):
and Clark boat he probably madeit.
There's one in Boonville,missouri, for heaven's sakes.
That surprised me when I gotback to my state in the middle
of the state.
So he's just a fascinatingcharacter and reading that story
will be fun for people.
I'm pausing here because I'mgoing to insert a story.
(37:09):
I'm not sure about time, but itisn't one of the 12 stories,
but one of the most interestingstops on there.
I didn't really have a favoritestop, and that's not just being
diplomatic, it was, they werejust all different.
One of the most surprisingstops for me is when I rolled
into Atchison, kansas.
(37:29):
It was the only Kansas town Istayed in.
It's right on the river.
There's a beautiful picture onthe back cover of the book of
the bridge that's lit up in away that reflects on the river
in such a way that they've gotthe red, white and blue lights
on the bridge, so it looksexactly like an American flag on
(37:50):
the Missouri River at night.
I got there and there are a lotof stories about Atchison, but
I was sitting watching apresentation and I heard a name
that sounded familiar to me.
Long story short, it turns outthat my great-great-grandfather
was one of the 13 co-founders ofAtchison, kansas.
So that was the unique surpriseof the whole trip for me.
(38:13):
I mean, that just blew my mind,and the Atchison people were so
delighted they had a historianthere that helped me track it
down and make sure it really wasmy great-great-grandfather.
So that was that, but anotherone of the treasures.
I forget exactly the town, butI was just getting into.
(38:34):
Well, actually I was about toleave South Dakota and I had a
stop that I had planned fellthrough, so I stayed at a bed
and breakfast there.
And again, the name hasdeserted me right now.
It's a very small town, but itwas so fun to be there.
It was a farm and these twopeople that hosted that were at
(38:56):
the Airbnb.
She was from Switzerland.
Long story, she'd been aforeign exchange student, blah,
blah, blah, and so she ended upback here.
It was so fascinating because Ifelt kind of like, in some
sense, the ugly American,because I almost said I mean, I
was fascinated.
She loved South Dakota and Ihope I was tactful.
(39:19):
But I asked you know what'ssomebody from Switzerland doing
in South Dakota and loving it,you know?
And she laughed and she saidyou know, I get that a lot.
But she had the mostinteresting perspective.
She said, yeah, Switzerland is,you know, we all know it's
beautiful, but all of that partof Europe is.
(39:43):
She didn't use the word scrunchtogether, but she said I can't
get out in the wide open like Ican.
Here I can't see the sunset, andindeed every night she had a
bench and she called it hersunset bench.
She was out.
There's even a picture in thebook sitting there watching the
sunset and I had never thoughtabout the fact that that's an
(40:07):
interesting perspective.
I mean, now she has the room togo where she wants watch the
sunset.
It's so wide open, totallydifferent than Switzerland, but
I think somehow it's almost agreener grass grass greener
perspective.
You know, those of us in theUnited States would love to go
(40:30):
to Switzerland and it isbeautiful.
I've been there, but she had anentirely different perspective
and that was most interesting.
And my last night there sheactually pulled out her guitar
and sang and yodeled for me.
So that was a fun group.
I'm glancing here.
If you've got other questions,fire away.
Otherwise I can tell you somemore of these wonderful people.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Sure no, and I love the fact that the people were so
prominent and so important toyou when this was all said and
done.
I want to ask you about themoment you come into St Louis.
You know the confluence in the.
What was that like, cause youhad just spent seven weeks on
this adventure.
What was that like?
Speaker 2 (41:14):
You.
You've hit it exactly right,jake.
I mean it.
I try to say in the book, andI've got a picture of the
confluence there in the book andI've got a picture of my boot
in each river.
I actually stood in theconfluence there, but it was
such a fascinating feelingbecause A, as you just said, the
river had been my close friendfor seven weeks and this
(41:34):
particular site, that is, theconfluence of the two rivers,
was the site I had to wait thelongest to see.
I had to wait, you know, over 50days to see the end of the
river, and yet it was also mylast day on the road and I also
knew that, you know, four and ahalf hours from now I can be
(41:55):
down I-44 and be home afterseven weeks.
So there was this strange pullbetween having to leave a really
close friend, even if it was ariver, and knowing that I could
be home about the time the sunset.
So, yeah, it was fascinating.
In fact, I had planned to staya day or two in St Louis, but as
(42:18):
I got closer, I just starteddropping a day off Washington,
missouri, which is the lastplace I stayed before St Louis.
I finally decided I can doeverything I want to do in St
Louis in one day and then I canbe home.
So I did.
I hate to confess this, but oneof the things that I loved that
(42:41):
will make people roll theireyes is I loved all the bridges
over the river.
I have pictures of almost everybridge over the river.
So I had it planned that I couldcross all five bridges in St
Louis that cross the river,still get to see the confluence,
go down and get my classicpicture of the St Louis Arch and
then have actually had lunchwith my sister who of the St
(43:01):
Louis arch, and then haveactually had lunch with my
sister who lives in St Louis andthen headed down home.
So you hit that right on thehead.
It was just a fascinatingfeeling.
That just torn?
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Yeah, I was going to say, was there kind of almost a
sense of I don't know if theword is sadness, but almost like
, like you said it was, that wasyour friend for the last seven
weeks and it was it wasmelancholy and yet it was.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
There was also this not just getting to be home, but
there was also this sense of,in some way, achievement.
You know, I just finishedfollowing the Missouri, from
start to finish.
I survived.
Very early in the trip Iwondered about that.
So, yeah, you're right, I thinkmelancholy is one word, but
(43:47):
also not really sadness.
Yeah, I don't know.
Partly I guess maybe there wassome sadness because I was
leaving a good friend, but therewas also this achievement and
also this desire to know that Ican be home this evening.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Absolutely.
Yeah, that's got to be a goodfeeling as well, kind of that
mix.
It's just, yeah, kind of arange of emotions.
Yeah, that's incredible.
So it's been nine years sinceyou did this.
It sounds like you stillreflect on it.
How has it affected your lifesince then?
I mean, do you still thinkabout that time and things that
happened?
Oh, affected your life since?
Speaker 2 (44:20):
then I mean, do you still think about that time and
things that happened?
I do almost in a way, almost ofnecessity, jake.
When I got back, of course,then the book did indeed develop
.
It's a coffee table style book.
I took all of the pictures inthere.
There's about 200 pictures.
There's all the stories.
There's a section on the citiesI visited seven states and 27
cities.
There's side trips, there's asection on Lewis and Clark and
(44:42):
there's a section on the humantreasures.
So I finished that and so thenit was out there.
Well, then you start contactingrotaries and libraries and all
of them are as interested in thetrip as the fun we're having
here, and so I enjoyed doingthat, because every time I did
(45:02):
it I got to take the trip again.
So yeah, I have, indeed it'sbeen with me more than I
realized over nine years.
But I think the thing thatsticks with me is it was just I
don't know how to say this Iexpected the adventure.
I already told you.
(45:24):
You know, I knew the scenerythere'd be scenery.
I knew there'd be.
You know, blah, blah, blah.
I just didn't realize it wasgoing to be the adventure of a
lifetime with a capital A.
It just was amazing.
It's hard to describe, but yeah, so it has stuck with me in a
variety of ways.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
All right, you got to tell me about the book a little
bit then, because it soundslike now, when you went into the
experience, was the thought, oh, I'm going to create a book out
of this, or did that kind ofcome as you went and then just
tell me about the name of thebook.
All that good stuff.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Great question.
It's a little tiny bit of both.
You remember I mentioned thegal that wrote the book on the
Mississippi.
Well, she started this wholething.
Turns out she lives inSpringfield, which is an hour
north of here, and so I actuallygot to visit with her.
But I had also touched basewith her before I left and I
(46:18):
knew that she had written thisbook and her publisher was in
eastern Missouri over near StLouis.
So I actually did contact thosepeople before I left and they
were interested, said yes, thatwould go well with Gail's book.
You know we won't make anypromises but contact.
(46:41):
So and I had already decided.
I mean that actually came upafter I had decided I'm going to
make this trip.
So I knew I was going to makethe trip book or not.
But when I got back, like I sayI'm a camera nut and people say
I take good pictures and I havea good eye and I don't really
(47:02):
view myself as a photographer,but I had the pictures and I and
I kept not a very good one, butI kept a log and it had just
enough information at each citythat I.
I mean there's it's not a hugebook, a couple of hundred pages
or something coffee table style.
So I didn't.
I didn't spend a long timetalking about each city, so I
(47:25):
had enough in my notes to dothat, hit the high points and
the interesting points and so on.
So it developed pretty quicklyand it has done fairly well, so
I'm pleased about that.
I didn't take it for the book,if that makes sense.
I took the trip for the trip.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah, that makes total sense.
You have the idea that, hey,maybe I'll do this, I'll take
some pictures along the way, butyou were going to do the
adventure regardless.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
It sounds like that was going to be your thing,
that's true, I think that helpedthe book because I wasn't doing
things for the book.
But people tell me that theadventure came through to them
as they were reading, thatbetween the pictures and the
descriptions.
And I have kind of aninteresting style.
I'm not a professional writer,but people say they felt like
(48:13):
they were on the trip with me,so I view that as-.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Love that, yeah Well, and I'm excited to get my hands
on the book.
What is the name of the bookand where can people find it?
Speaker 2 (48:22):
The book is Rolling Down the River.
That's kind of funny too,because my first thought was to
title it Rolling on the Riverand the publisher said you need
to name it Rolling Down theRiver because if people Google
rolling on the river, they'regoing to get 15 selections of
the song before they ever get toyour book.
(48:42):
That was right.
Yeah, it's called that andthere's a subtitle.
It's something like.
I don't remember it.
Well, yes, I do remember itexactly Discovering people and
places along the mighty Missouri.
So there it is.
Yeah, if people are interestedin it.
I'm not a salesperson and Idon't twist arms, but if people
(49:05):
are interested, I will give thema special Jake the Podcaster
price and I will sign it forthem and I will split the
postage with them.
If you want to have themcontact me.
It's fine to give out my email.
I think you'd be able to putthat on at the end of this, if
you want.
And they can just email.
In fact, I think you have mycard and all the well.
(49:27):
You have all the information.
I don't care if you put myphone number either, so they can
contact me.
I'll be glad to hook them up.
They can get it.
I mean, it's on Amazon, it's onmost places and a lot of people
like to do that, but if theycontact me then I'll give them a
better price.
That's on Amazon and they can'tget it signed on Amazon.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
Exactly.
So yeah, hey, that's a greatopportunity to get it signed,
and I'm hoping you'll sign mycopy as well.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
I will, indeed, I will and I'll get it in the mail
as soon as you send me youraddress Ah, perfect, I love it.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
This has been fascinating.
I didn't know anything, hardly,about the Missouri River.
I knew it went into theMississippi.
That was about it.
I knew St Louis was kind of thespot.
I didn't even know what startedin Montana.
So there's so much I learnedtalking to you and just the
people that you came across andthe experiences Amazing.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
You know the Missouri flows into the Mississippi
there at St Louis.
But there is some debate and Iam among the people that
consider that it's the Missourithat flows all the way to the
Gulf and the Mississippi thatflows into it.
Speaker 1 (50:35):
Flows into that.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
I don't get a lot of people that agree, but there is
some scholarly debate about that.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
So you got a love for the Missouri, so I can see why
you, you know, and I don't know,I'm not.
I'm not joining either side onthat one, but I love the fact
that you you think like that.
I love that.
That's, that's fun, yeah.
So my last question I want toask we've been talking for a
while and this has been, oh,this has been amazing.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
But my last question I alwayslike to ask people, because
Journey with Jake it's about you, but it's also about adventure,
and you had quite the adventure.
(51:04):
So, in your mind, larry, whatdoes the word adventure mean to
you?
Speaker 2 (51:09):
Oh my, I'm usually prepared for almost any question
.
That's a good one.
Adventure is an extraordinaryI'm splitting that up on purpose
happening in which one pursuesand discovers several unknown
(51:31):
things, not only about theenvironment but about themselves
.
Usually I'm wordy, but thatshort sentence will have to do
it.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
That's perfect.
I love it, Larry.
Larry, thank you so much forjoining me on Journey with Jake.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
Thank you, Jake.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
A huge thank you to Larry Campbell for sharing his
incredible journey along theMissouri River.
I love doing this podcast andit's because of adventurous
souls like Larry who inspire uswith their stories.
Thank you, larry.
As he mentioned, he's offeringa special Journey with Jake
discount on his book RollingDown the River.
Just shoot him an email Hiscontact info is in the show
(52:07):
notes or feel free to message meon Instagram or email at
jakeatjourneywithjakenet andI'll gladly connect you with him
.
I just received my copy in themail and let me tell you it's a
beautiful book filled with greatstories and stunning photos.
One that really stuck with mewas about Shep the dog such a
touching reflection.
I can't recommend this bookenough.
(52:27):
You can also learn more at hiswebsite, larryncampbellcom.
And to all of you, my journeywith Jakers.
I'm still trying that one out.
Thank you for tuning in eachweek.
It truly means the world to me.
If you're enjoying the show.
I'd love it if you left arating and review on Apple
Podcasts or Spotify, or if youjust share it with a friend or
(52:48):
family member.
Next week episode is anotherpowerful one.
I had the chance to speak withBrooke King, an incredible woman
navigating thyroid cancer whilestill embracing wild and unique
adventures like hitchhikingtrains through the Sahara and
visiting a floating grocerystore.
You won't want to miss it.
Just remember it's not alwaysabout the destination as it is
(53:10):
about the journey.
Take care everybody, thank you.
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