April 18, 2025 • 38 mins
Bonus 8 - Dr. Douglas Brouwer's journey from Western Michigan to the world and back again offers profound insights into how travel shapes our spiritual lives and understanding of home.
After spending 40 years serving as a Presbyterian pastor around the globe, Doug's adventures took him from maximum security prisons in Philadelphia to a church in Zurich, Switzerland, where he learned German at age 60. His travels weren't merely about seeing new places but about finding deeper meaning and connection with humanity.
The conversation explores Doug's most profound travel experiences, including walking 500 miles along the Camino de Santiago at retirement age. Despite averaging 17 miles daily for 28 days with everything on his back, it was the first night—stranded on a mountainside between France and Spain—that taught him the most powerful lesson about his own limitations. Yet he persevered, meeting fellow pilgrims from around the world who, regardless of religious affiliation, participated in the ancient spiritual rituals along the path.
What makes this episode particularly moving is Doug's reflection on the true purpose of all our wandering. After visiting 48 states and countless countries, writing a book called "The Traveler's Path," and experiencing diverse cultures, he found that his heart's true home was back near Lake Michigan where he began. "All of this moving around, all of the searching that people do, I think, is a search for home," he shares with emotion. "Where is it that I belong?"
Whether you're planning your next adventure or questioning the meaning of your travels, this conversation will challenge your perspective on what makes journeys worthwhile.
Visit LandPirate.com to get your gear that has you, the adventurer, in mind. Use the code "Journey with Jake" to get an additional 15% off at check out.
Visit geneticinsights.co and use the code "DISCOVER25" to enjoy a sweet 25% off your first purchase.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone and happy Good Friday.
With Easter weekend upon us,it's the perfect time for a
bonus episode.
I had the honor of speakingwith Dr Douglas Brower, a
Presbyterian pastor and authorof the Traveler's Path Finding
Spiritual Growth and InspirationThrough Travel.
Doug and I had a wonderfulconversation about his
adventures, the lessons he'slearned through travel and the
(00:21):
joy of coming back home.
I know you're going to enjoythis insightful, inspiring
discussion.
Joy of coming back home.
I know you're going to enjoythis insightful, inspiring
discussion, so sit back, relaxand enjoy this bonus episode
with Dr Douglas Brower.
Welcome to Journey with Jake.
This is a podcast aboutadventure and how, through our
adventures, we can overcome thechallenges of life that come our
way.
While I expect you will learnsome things about different
(00:42):
adventures, this show willentertain you.
Each episode will feature adifferent guest or guests, as
they share experiences andstories from the different
adventures they have been on.
Not only will you beentertained, but you'll also
hear the failures and trialseach guest faces and what they
have done or are doing toovercome the hardships that come
their way.
My goal is to take each of uson a journey through the
(01:03):
experiences of my guests, withthe hope that you'll be
entertained and inspired toovercome your day-to-day
challenges.
After all, it's not all aboutthe destination as it is about
the journey.
(01:26):
Hey, everyone, welcome back tothis bonus episode of Journey
with Jake.
I'm your host, jake Bushman.
New episodes of Journey withJake drop every Thursday, but I
love releasing extra episodes onholidays.
So, with today being GoodFriday, I couldn't pass up the
chance to share this specialconversation with you If you
haven't checked out yesterdayGood Friday.
I couldn't pass up the chanceto share this special
(01:46):
conversation with you If youhaven't checked out yesterday's
episode.
I highly recommend it.
I had a great time talking withChris Nance about his life as a
riverboat pilot on theMississippi River and his
exciting new venture as partowner of Backbone Coffee.
It was a fascinatingconversation, so be sure to give
it a listen.
Today's bonus episode with DrDouglas Brower really opened my
eyes to the idea that, whileadventures and experiences shape
(02:06):
us, there's something specialabout coming home.
So let's walk the Camino, visitprisons and explore the world
through the lens of travel andfaith with Dr Douglas Brower.
All right, well, I'm excited.
Today I have Douglas Brower.
He said for me to call him Doug, not Douglas.
Thank you, jake Good Doug.
(02:26):
Welcome to the show.
Thanks for coming on Journeywith Jake.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Good to be with you.
I look forward to ourconversation.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Absolutely.
If you're somebody who has goneout and seen the world a little
bit, you've traveled a littlebit, you've done some things,
you've written a book.
The book's called theTraveler's Path Finding
Spiritual Growth and InspirationThrough Travel.
I want to dive into that alittle bit.
Before we get into all that,and where you've been and some
of your stories and adventurestell us a little bit about Doug,
where you're from, where yougrew up, and a little bit about
(02:54):
your family.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I grew up in Western Michigan, went to college here
and then moved away for morethan 40 years and, as my wife
will tell you, I dragged her allover the world.
You'd think we were a militaryfamily, but no, but we did live
in a number of places and then,in retirement, I thought it was
her call.
So we're back to pretty muchwhere I grew up, which is a
(03:17):
strange experience.
I'm not the same person, andthis community is different from
the way I remember it too.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Very good.
So you said you got a wife, anykids?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
I have two daughters who are millennials and they
think I know nothing abouttechnology.
But look at this I have amicrophone.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
I was going to say you got a microphone there.
That's pretty good, very good.
So two daughters excellent,living in western Michigan.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Oh, that is the hard part, although it leads to more
travel.
One is in Minneapolis and theother is in Seattle, and that's
where the grandchildren are too.
Yeah, we're going to see themin a few weeks.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Nice.
I'm a new grandparent myself,so as a grandfather that you are
, have you noticed that you kindof have to travel to them.
Is that kind of how it worksout?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Since we live quite close to the lake, they enjoy
coming here in the summer andthen they play pretty hard in
the water for a week, and so Ithink we designed it that way
that this would be a vacationdestination for them.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Perfect, that works out good, then that's awesome.
Then you can have the grandkidscome to you for them.
Perfect, that works out good,then that's awesome.
Then you can have the grandkidscome to you.
That sounds amazing.
I love it All right.
So, doug, tell me about thebook you wrote, the Traveler's
Path Finding Spiritual Growthand Inspiration Through Travel.
What was kind of the reasoningbehind it, and tell me a little
bit about that.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Well, it was my younger daughter who suggested
it to me.
I was thinking about a new bookproject and she said Dad, it's
obvious.
I mean, you have spent yourlife moving around going places.
I mean, why don't you writeabout that?
And so it clicked right thatevening and I began to reflect
on a lifetime of not just movingaround, but going places, going
(05:04):
on mission trips, pilgrimagesand so on, there was a lot of
material to draw on.
Let me add this part too when Iwas a child, my family would go
on long, long road trips, threeweeks every summer and we went
to all 48, lower 48 states, allof Canada, and I got this urge
(05:25):
to go places.
I think my parents gave me thegift of curiosity and I didn't
get a trust fund, but of all thepossible gifts to get, I think
I got a wonderful one.
They made me a curious person.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Very good.
So you kind of had that kind ofgrowing up, that kind of set
the foundation for you.
It sounds like of wanting toexplore and travel and see the
world.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, and I hope my sisters don't listen in on this,
but they've never left WesternMichigan and I know they've gone
places and traveled a bit, butthey didn't pick it up.
They didn't pick up the bug theway I did.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, and I want to talk about that.
So you grew up Western Michiganbut you guys did your little
traveling as a family but thenyou left for 40 years.
Right, when did that take you?
Like, where are some of theplaces that took you?
You mentioned mission trips.
You talk about pilgrimages.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, what are some of the places that this led you?
So the first place I went wasto New Jersey.
I'm a Presbyterian pastor, so Iwent to a Presbyterian seminary
and, believe me, new Jersey isa long way from Western Michigan
.
I thought, well, they speakEnglish there, I should be okay.
But the culture is verydifferent and they recognize me
(06:40):
as being very different too.
So that was my first experienceof going away.
I've lived in the Midwest,served a couple of churches here
, and then the last long-termchurch I served was in South
Florida of all places, fortLauderdale.
And then for five years, at theend of my career, I served an
English-speaking church inZurich, switzerland.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I'm heading back there this weekend for something
else.
It was a remarkable time in mylife of stretching and shaping
who I am as a person.
At age 60, I was required tolearn a new language for my work
permit.
I was very excited.
I think my wife was a littleless excited about it than I was
, but what a remarkableexperience.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
How do you go about that?
Because I know, you know I'mnot 60, but it's hard for me.
I feel like it's hard to learnnew things like that.
How do you go about learning alanguage at that age?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Well, ok, it helps to have a curious spirit In the US
students typically and I thinkthis may be changing.
So I know of my own.
I've got some great nieces andnephews who are learning
languages at an early age, but Iwasn't given a choice to learn
a new language until high schooland I chose Latin for thinking,
(07:57):
well, okay, I'll never use thisagain, but anyway, when I found
myself in Switzerland and had arequirement to gain proficiency
in the language for a workpermit, I took it as a challenge
.
If you read my book, you'll seethat I take on huge challenges
in my life, and that was a bigone.
Learning a language after age60 is not easy.
(08:20):
Oh, I can tell you a funnystory about that too.
No one will ever mistake me fora native German speaker the
youth in the church, who willjust tell you whatever they're
thinking.
The youth in the church saidplease speak English, your
German hurts our ears.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Oh, I love it.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
So, yeah, I did pass the exam, but no one will ever
think I'm great at German.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
I love the fact, though, that you, like you said
you had kind of a curious mindand you wanted to learn, and you
did it.
I think that's fantastic,because I know, you know, when
you get older, sometimes it'slike for me, I mean, I'm like I
don't know if I want to.
That just sounds daunting.
You know, you think about manlearning another language sounds
daunting.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I discovered in the writing of this book that there
are spiritual writers out thereHenry Nowen comes to mind but
there are spiritual writers whosay that language learning is a
key to hospitality, it's a keyto loving the stranger, I mean,
all of which are foundational tomy faith.
So the way to reach out, get toknow a stranger, is to learn
(09:28):
their language, learn what isimportant to them, right?
So I was thinking about it inspiritual terms when I struggled
to learn this new language.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
I like that you shared that, because I spent
some time on a church missionmyself in Uruguay, and so I
learned Spanish, and that's agreat way to look at it.
As you know, rather than justI'm learning it so I can
communicate, it's getting toknow the people and being able
to serve them by speaking thelanguage.
I never, you know, I hadn'treally done a main here.
(09:58):
You know I've been.
I've been there for over Idon't know it's been quite a
while now, but that's that'simpressive.
I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I don't think I could have articulated it at the time
.
I was learning the language,but in doing the research for
the book it started to fall intoplace.
Yeah, this is what it means towelcome.
The stranger.
Americans are not always humble.
When they travel, americansexpect people to speak English
to them.
So learning to speak thelanguage of another is a way of
(10:26):
being humble in the presence ofother people.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
I like that.
That's a great way to look atit.
So let's talk about the wholetravel aspect of everything,
cause this book I mean it'scalled the traveler's path.
Yeah, and there was kind of aquestion.
I was kind of looking at yourbio reading a little bit about
you, and there the question wasposed there and I'll ask you
this question is travel good forus, and why is it good for us
if it is?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
the curious thing I discovered is that the the
answer is not always.
Sometimes travel is bad for us,bad for the planet.
It's bad for the places wevisit.
I mean, you think ofover-touristed cities in Europe,
for example.
What I set out to do in thebook is to challenge people to
think more deeply about whatthey're doing, to be open to new
(11:11):
experiences, to makeconnections that they might not
ordinarily make, and I can'tresist saying this to you.
Some people are going to listento our conversation and say you
know, I would never go on avacation with that guy.
So rest assured that I thinksometimes a vacation is just a
vacation.
(11:31):
You go away to a lake for a fewdays, you read a book, sit in
the sun.
I get that.
I've done my share, done myshare, but there are times when
a journey somewhere can be farmore than that when we can be
(11:52):
changed by the experience.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Do you have any examples of something in your
life that you could?
Speaker 2 (11:54):
share with us that was impactful to you.
This was one of the first ones.
It happened the very first timeI went to Israel.
I was not aware, but I mean Ithought there were Arab Muslims
and there were Jewish IsraeliJews and it turns out about 5%
of the population is Christianand they've been in the land
since well, since Jesus was inthe land.
So while I was there, I met aMelkite Catholic Arab Christian
(12:18):
priest whose name is FatherShakur, catholic Arab Christian
priest whose name is FatherShakur.
He messed with my mind and westarted a friendship that
continues to this day.
He became Archbishop of Galilee.
He's been a guest in my home inthe US.
I've been a guest in his homein northern Israel.
I began to see that the worldis a little bit more complicated
(12:39):
than I knew before.
There aren't just two points ofview, there are multiple points
of view for understanding.
Yeah, we don't have to talkabout the Middle East right now,
but there's a lot going onthere that I didn't know before.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Absolutely.
That's a good example of goingsomeplace like that.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
I can't resist adding this too.
So I came back and my mind wasblown.
A couple of people we traveledwith had even more transforming
experiences.
There was a woman who was ahigh level executive at GE
corporate level position.
She was so taken by the storywe heard this father Shakur
started a school.
She left her job soon aftergetting back and she said I'm
(13:21):
going to devote my life to thisschool.
I'm going to raise money in theU?
S so that Jews and Christiansand Druze and Muslims can all
come together and, as fatherShakur puts it, learn, learn
peace on the desktops ofchildren.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
It's an interesting way to talk about it and you met
, you talked about vacations andvacations.
Yeah, there, we've all done it.
I mean, trust me, I love totake a break every now and again
and just be able to turn it offand, you know, not really focus
, so to speak.
But you talked about havingthese meaningful trips and
obviously for her it was superimpactful.
(13:57):
If she quits her job to pursuethat, yeah.
Wow, if she quits her job topursue that?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, I mean wow.
So this is a lot of what I havedone in my career as a pastor.
I can lead people down a path,but I mean that's just part of
the process.
Something has to happen withinthem so I can put them in a
position where they can bechanged.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
You talk about.
Something I kind of read inyour bio as well is about you
know, as a way that has impactand things like that and how you
get to what you call a worthyadventure.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Talk about that to me a little bit, about what that
means to you originally thephrase worthy adventure comes
from an ethicist at DukeUniversity, Stanley Hauerwas,
and he would like to see all oflife as a worthy adventure.
So, whatever you give yourself,to give all of yourself, be
(14:53):
willing to die for whatever itis.
You're doing that kind of Idon't know, self-giving.
Well, I guess I do that a littlebit, but I wanted to think of
my travels as worthy adventures,places where I give of myself
and I'm looking to be changed inthe process.
(15:14):
I wanted to call the bookWorthy Adventure at an early
stage the adventure at an earlystage.
And I had a few other titles inmind, but the publisher the
publisher is not wildlyenthusiastic about that one.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
I like that title though, especially, you know,
because Journey with Jake's kindof an adventure podcast about
people's journey, so I think ofwow travel and you can have
travel be a worthy adventure.
I like that.
I like the sound of that.
One thing you talked about, tooyou said some of the places
you've been.
It's about meeting people andseeing the culture, and you
talked about visiting prisons,things like that.
Please, please, divulge.
(15:52):
I want to hear some of this.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
When I was at seminary in New Jersey, I worked
one day a week as a studentchaplain in Holmesburg Prison in
Philadelphia Again light yearsfrom Western Michigan, an inner
city maximum security prison inPhiladelphia and I learned there
how to well, how to be a pastor.
(16:16):
But my job was to recognizethese men as human beings.
I would sit in their cells andlisten to their stories and look
at the photos of children andthat sort of thing.
My job was to recognize theirhumanity.
I had this early experience inprison work and then throughout
my life I seemed to be drawnback.
(16:37):
I took a group one time toSouth Africa.
We had a connection with achurch in South Africa but we
were wandering around oh, Iforget the city at the southern
tip of African continent, butabout a half hour ferry ride
from Cape Town is Robben Island,where a former president of
(16:59):
South Africa I'm blanking on hisname where he was held in
prison for 18 years NelsonMandela.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Nelson Mandela yep, I was like Mandela came up, I
couldn't think of Nelson Mandelaabsolutely.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
So we you know lots of people have made this trip.
But you go and you look in hiscell and you think about
spending 18 years of your lifein this tiny cell and how
transformative it is.
And he writes in one of hisbooks his most famous book that
you can know a lot about acountry by visiting its prisons.
So then I think back toHolmesburg and I'm thinking
(17:35):
about Robben Island.
I'll give you a couple more One.
I did an interim pastorate inthe Hague and on a free
afternoon I would pedal my biketo the beach.
Who knew that the Hague was abeach town?
Every time I went I would pedalmy bike by what's
affectionately called the OrangeHotel by the locals.
(17:56):
It's a prison and it's acrossthe street from the
International Criminal Court,and often people who are tried
for these terrible crimes ofgenocide and so on are held in
this prison.
Well, it looked a lot likeHolmesburg to me.
Through a church connection, Igot to meet one of the judges
there and she took me on a tour.
(18:18):
Just about every time I took atour group to Israel.
One of the places we went inJerusalem was the home of
Caiaphas, the high priest.
What they do is they allowpilgrims to descend a ladder
into a pit beneath this home.
The thinking is that this iswhere Jesus spent the night
before he was executed the nextday.
So pilgrims descend into thispit.
(18:39):
We stand there.
I typically read the storyabout what we believe happened
there.
I find that for just abouteverybody who does it, it's a
very moving experience and onceagain, if we had been there, our
job would have been torecognize the humanity in this
(19:00):
person who was waiting for hisexecution the next day.
Those are my prison stories.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yeah, no, I love it, I appreciate it.
You said the word pilgrim, sowe'll jump into pilgrimages.
Then.
Camino de Santiago when I thinkof people doing a pilgrimage, I
think of the Camino and peopleof Spain, France, wherever.
I know you walked some of it, Idon't know how much you did.
Can you tell me a little bitabout where you were?
When did you do it?
That sort of thing?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
To back up a little bit Christians have been doing
this since, I don't know, thefirst century, not the first
century, but a thousand AD,let's say, the most popular
pilgrimage destinations wereJerusalem, rome and, believe it
or not, well, this cathedral inSantiago de Compostela where the
bones of St James apparentlyare entombed, who knows?
(19:47):
It doesn't make that muchdifference to me, but there are
these three wonderfuldestinations, and pilgrims have
been walking these paths thenfor hundreds of years.
The reformers during theReformation saw no value in
doing this walk, and sopilgrimage died out in the
Protestant areas of Europe.
(20:07):
Luther said, you know, goddoesn't care, which is probably
true.
God doesn't care where you walk.
There is something deeplymoving about following in the
footsteps of all of these peopleof faith over the centuries, so
that's what I find sofascinating.
And then what was unexpected?
What has been unexpected is thepeople I meet from all over the
(20:29):
world walking along, and wewould walk together for two or
three days at a time.
So in 2019, freshly retired, Iwalked the northern route of the
Camino de Santiago 500 miles.
I don't know what I wasthinking, jake.
I had everything on my back andI was walking.
(20:51):
I averaged about 17 miles a day.
I can't believe I did it, butit was yet another life-changing
experience for me.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
So the Northern part is that across Spain.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Yeah, the northern, yeah, right across the northern
part, across Spain.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
I have a good friend of mine who was about to go.
He had it all set up to go andthen COVID happened.
I think he's going next summeror this summer, hopefully across
my fingers for him.
Okay, you talked about, yeah,the people you meet.
How does this work?
Because I know for him.
He was saying that there's allthese little places that you
stop every night.
For you, I guess it happenedthe same way.
But the people, how did you?
(21:28):
Is it just people walking alongand just strike up conversation
?
How does this work?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
I met people literally from all over the
world.
I met very few from the US, notsure why.
I met a Catholic priest fromChile and he was starting a
seminary in Siberia and hespeaks Spanish and now Russian
and English.
We struck up a conversationimmediately and I was fascinated
(21:54):
by what he was doing with hislife.
I'll give you one moreillustration.
A man from Ireland was walkingwith his father and he had lost
his marriage and his career toalcohol.
So he was out there trying tosort out his life, to put it
back together again, to spendmeaningful time with his father.
And so I guess because of mycareer, I'm used to hearing
(22:17):
stories like that, but still itwas very powerful.
And then I mean it happened.
Something like that happenedevery day.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
How many days were you out there?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
It took me 28 days, and then some people can't help
themselves.
They keep going to the ocean 28days, and then some people
can't help themselves.
They keep going to the ocean,which is another I don't know
two or three days walk fromSantiago.
I took a bus.
I thought I'd walk enough, butI did put my toe in the ocean.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
So 28 days Did you go by yourself?
Did you go with family?
How'd you do this?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah, again, I don't know what I was thinking, but
yes, I went by myself, hadeverything in my back, I washed
my clothes every night andpilgrim hostels are called
albergues, so you sleep prettyclose together and there's
snoring.
And I do confess, if you'd bemy confessor right now, I did
give myself a treat a few timesand I stayed in a small hotel so
(23:09):
I had a bathroom to myself.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Good for you and so every day out walking yeah, I
don't, you know, I don't blameyou.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I would every now and again, I would treat myself
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
I thought it was a bad pilgrim.
What were some of thechallenges of it, besides just
the walking itself?
Was I mean?
Was there weather?
What was the weather like?
Did you ever get sick?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Whatever happened, I know the story I'm going to tell
you.
The weather was perfect.
I had a rain poncho, never usedit.
So I arrived at the startingpoint, which is on the French
side of the Pyrenees, and I wasjet lagged, dehydrated, and the
weather on that first day wasunseasonably warm.
(23:48):
I tell this story in the book.
There was no holding me back.
I had been planning this forweeks, but I should have spent a
recovery day inSaint-Jean-Pied-de-Port, this
little French town.
But I set out the next morning.
I got a late start foruninteresting reasons, and I
(24:09):
didn't make it to the top of thePyrenees.
So the sun is going down, I'mexhausted, dehydrated.
I'm just leaning on my hikingpoles and I thought I had one
option at that point, and thatwas to spend the night next to
the path.
So I rolled out my sleeping bagand I didn't know if there were
wild animals.
I assume they're hunted toextinction, but I didn't know
(24:33):
that.
And I don't camp.
I hate camping.
But there I am lying on theground next to the path,
somewhere between France andSpain.
Okay, and that was a scary night, and I know I'm making light of
it, but what was going on in mymind was okay, doug, this is
the story of your life Bitingoff a lot more than you can chew
(24:57):
, thinking you can do anythingwhen you really can't do
everything.
I think I learned the mostpowerful lesson of that
pilgrimage on the very firstnight.
So a very sober I was going tosay young man, a very sober old
man woke up the next morning,grateful to be alive and far
(25:19):
more realistic about what mycapabilities are.
And yet I kept going.
I stopped at the little town atthe top of the Pyrenees, had
breakfast, and I just kept going.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Fantastic, I love that.
I love hearing that hadbreakfast and I just kept going.
Fantastic, I love that.
I love hearing that you talkedabout.
You know pilgrimages were athing that people did for
religious purposes and thingslike that.
For all the people youencountered, were they out there
for religious purposes.
Do you have to have a religiouspurpose?
Do you have to have a spiritualpurpose to do it?
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I love this question because, I'd say, 99% of the
people I met said to me I'm notdoing, I'm not, this is not some
sort of Catholic thing, I'm notreligious Okay, all right, but
they knew how to do it.
Do you know what I mean?
I think there is within all ofus the spiritual longing, and
they were not going toacknowledge it, but that's why
(26:09):
they were out there.
I'll give you an illustrationToward the end of the walk,
there's a huge iron cross andthe idea is that you bring a
stone from home, a burden, youlay it at the foot of the cross
and then you keep walking.
It's a ritual, right?
Well, all of these people I waswalking with who claim, no, no,
(26:33):
we're not religious in any way.
They knew what to do.
They walked to the cross, theyleft their stone, their burden,
at the foot of the cross andthey kept going.
And I thought it's within allof us.
These are rituals that feed us.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
I just wondered about that because you know my, my
friend, who's going this summer.
I don't think he claims to beany kind of you know, any kind
of religion or anything likethat, and it sounds like you
said the majority, no, no, no,I'm not.
You know, this isn't a religion, but yet they're following the
rituals and they're, you know,and I'm sure they all, like you
said, I think they all discoversomething within themselves on
it.
It sounds like you did firstnight.
(27:14):
You had a realization that cameto you.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
It was a religious experience.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yes, On that same topic of religion spirituality
in your travels, when you'revisiting places, when you're
finding purpose in your travelsspiritually for you, what, what
does it mean to you and what aresome examples of that for you?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
You would think that would be an easy question to
answer, and it's a big question.
All I can say is I grew up inthis closed community and a very
conservative community inWestern Michigan, and as soon as
I set out, I think I discoveredthat the world was far bigger
than I ever knew.
Now I was given a wonderfulgift by my parents not just
(27:59):
curiosity but faith and so on.
But so I knew who I was as Iwas moving around.
But everywhere I went my worldjust kept expanding.
I'm one of those people whogets excited by that.
I think there are plenty ofpeople who are afraid of that.
I mean, they would prefer tostay with what they know, what's
familiar, and I do my best tounderstand it, but I like to
(28:23):
challenge it too.
One more related comment aboutthat I think I realized how
unimportant I, how what a smallpiece of this universe I really
am, by all the moving around Idid.
I'm one guy and there are lotsof guys and there are lots of
(28:43):
women out there and we are.
When we discover each other andlisten to each other's stories,
that's when we start becomingmore human.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
I agree a hundred percent.
I think that's why I love doingthis so much.
I get to meet so many differentpeople and hear different
thoughts that I, you know,hadn't even thought of before
and I don't know.
It makes me feel more human, Iguess, when I hear other people
share their stories and theirand their journeys.
So I love it, I appreciate yousharing who you are.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
I think a lot of my work is what you do, except I
didn't have a microphone.
I would ask people to tell metheir stories.
That was my life.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
One thing I want to ask you too, because I kind of
read this too in your bio alittle bit your thought on
bucket list, because I know alot of people say, oh my bucket
list.
What are your thoughts onbucket list?
Speaker 2 (29:30):
You know that's a relatively new term.
Oh my bucket list.
What are your?
thoughts on bucket lists.
You know that's a relativelynew term.
The movie came out and then, Idon't know, five years later,
that term made it into theOxford English Dictionary.
So what that says to me is it'sa relatively new concept.
What studies show is that mostof us talk about bucket lists to
impress other people.
The truth of the matter is thatwhen you are at the end of your
(29:52):
life or you're seriously ill,what people crave at that point
is the familiar they want to bewith people they know they want
to do the familiar things intheir lives.
They're not thinking aboutParis in the spring.
I'm not a big fan of BucketList, to be honest, and to give
you a better movie title thanthe one with is it Jack
(30:14):
Nicholson and Morgan Freeman?
A better movie title would beit's a Wonderful Life.
So there, oh, I'm forgettinghis name too, but the main
character-.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Jimmy Stewart.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Jimmy Stewart.
He never went anywhere.
He dreamed of leaving town, hedreamed of going to university,
and none of that ever happened.
And yet he discovers at the endof the movie that he had a
meaningful life.
But having said that, there areplaces I would go in a minute
(30:58):
If you said hey, Doug, let's goto wherever.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
I'd say, yep, my passport's in my pocket.
So on that subject, then,looking at the future for you,
any places you have planned togo or any place you want to go,
Where's your bucket list?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Pardon me.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
What's your bucket list item?
Just kidding, pardon me.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
What's your bucket list item?
Just kidding, when I retiredfrom the church in Zurich,
switzerland, I returned toEurope twice to do interim
pastorates while churches searchfor a permanent person.
So the first time I went wasjust for a few months.
It was in Luzern, switzerland,hard posting.
And then, most recently, a yearor so ago, I came back from the
(31:32):
Hague.
I spent nine months thereworking.
If one of those churches inthat international network came
along and said, Doug, would youhelp us out for a few months,
yes, I mean, I know what theanswer would be.
So that's my bucket list.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yeah, I love it.
No, that's fantastic.
Of all the places you've been,all the things that you've done,
and you sit back and you looklike, okay, I've done this in my
life and I've been here andI've done that.
Is there any particular placethat has special meaning to you?
Or if you can only go back toone place, where would you go?
Speaker 2 (32:05):
I'm going to cry while I say this.
I live very close to LakeMichigan.
We're not on Lakefront, but Ican see the sun setting right
now over the lake.
This has been my I guess I hatethis expression my happy place.
Whenever I was feeling low inmy life, I would dream of
(32:28):
sitting on the beach at LakeMichigan and all I can say is
this has always felt like hometo me, and I think there is a
spiritual truth there too.
All of this moving around, allof the searching that people do,
I think, is a search for home.
Where is it that I belong?
I hate to say it.
After 45 years of lookingaround, I'm back where I think I
belong.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Where you belong and where you're home.
I love it Through all yourtravels, through all the places
you've been and what you've beendoing.
What would you say are some ofthe challenges or difficulties
that?
Speaker 2 (33:00):
you faced.
Oh, you mean the ones thataren't of my choosing.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah right.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Or the ones I'm responsible for.
Yeah, I am not Confl.
Conflict is not an easy thingfor me, and so I tend to back
away and look for other placesto go when there's a situation
of conflict.
That's been my.
I think the most difficult partof my life and yet I have
learned through some therapy,through life experience, to
(33:31):
address it a little bit morehead on than I did earlier in my
life.
I'm a conflict avoider.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
I'm right there with you.
I do not want to.
Yeah, I do not want to havethat conflict for sure.
Well, I got to tell you, Doug,this has been inspiring for me,
so I appreciate you sharing whatyou've shared.
It's really helped me.
Before we wrap up, though, Iwant if people want to get this
(33:58):
book or they want to learn moreabout you, where can they do
that?
Where can they find information?
Speaker 2 (34:02):
I must have turned the cameras right behind me.
It's available on Amazon,Barnes Noble.
If I can get it into your localbookstore, I'll do that
Excellent.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Yeah, I'll do that Excellent.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Yeah, all the usual places.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
And it's called.
Tell us the name of the fulltitle again.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
The book is called the Traveler's Path, and that's
my best side on the cover.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
The backside there.
That's the best side.
Love it Fantastic.
My final question to you.
This is a question I like toask everybody who comes on the
show, because why not?
It's an adventure podcast.
Why not For you, doug?
What does adventure mean to you?
Speaker 2 (34:41):
I can say it in a sentence it's going somewhere
and finding meaning in theexperience.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Finding meaning in the experience.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
I'm not going to go on vacation with that guy.
Here's what I love.
Here's what I love about I wasgoing to say I'm not going to go
on vacation with that guy.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Here's what I love.
Here's what I love about theconversation that we had today.
We talk about places you'vebeen and finding meaning in
travel and things like that, butfor you it's all about that
meaning of being home and foryou and I love that because
sometimes I sit here and I talkto all these people who do these
amazing wild things, and I'msitting there thinking did I
miss out?
Am I?
Because I'm not doing all ofthese things and then it just
(35:16):
really helped me realize thatyou know what?
I've got it here with me, I'vegot my wife, I've got my kids.
I'm blessed and to be home withthem is a huge blessing, and so
this has been great for me.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.
Yeah, I sensed that we werekindred spirits.
I like that.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Yeah, absolutely, Douglas.
Thank you so much for coming onJourney with Jake.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Thanks for having me.
It's been a treat.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
A special thank you to Dr Douglas Brower for joining
me and sharing his experiencesand insights with all of us.
If you'd like to dive deeperinto his journey, be sure to
check out his book theTraveler's Path Finding
Spiritual Growth and InspirationThrough Travel, available on
Amazon, and I will include alink in the show notes for you.
And, of course, a big thank youto all of you for tuning into
(35:58):
this bonus episode of Journeywith Jake.
I'll be back next Thursday withanother great episode featuring
David Schaffran, who fell inlove with salsa dancing, so much
so that he traveled to one ofits hotspots Medellin, Colombia.
You won't want to miss it.
Until then, remember, it's notalways about the destination as
it is about the journey.
Take care, everybody.
Hey everyone and happy Good Friday.
With Easter weekend upon us,it's the perfect time for a
bonus episode.
I had the honor of speakingwith Dr Douglas Brower, a
Presbyterian pastor and authorof the Traveler's Path Finding
Spiritual Growth and InspirationThrough Travel.
Doug and I had a wonderfulconversation about his
adventures, the lessons he'slearned through travel and the
(00:21):
joy of coming back home.
I know you're going to enjoythis insightful, inspiring
discussion.
Joy of coming back home.
I know you're going to enjoythis insightful, inspiring
discussion, so sit back, relaxand enjoy this bonus episode
with Dr Douglas Brower.
Welcome to Journey with Jake.
This is a podcast aboutadventure and how, through our
adventures, we can overcome thechallenges of life that come our
way.
While I expect you will learnsome things about different
(00:42):
adventures, this show willentertain you.
Each episode will feature adifferent guest or guests, as
they share experiences andstories from the different
adventures they have been on.
Not only will you beentertained, but you'll also
hear the failures and trialseach guest faces and what they
have done or are doing toovercome the hardships that come
their way.
My goal is to take each of uson a journey through the
(01:03):
experiences of my guests, withthe hope that you'll be
entertained and inspired toovercome your day-to-day
challenges.
After all, it's not all aboutthe destination as it is about
the journey.
(01:26):
Hey, everyone, welcome back tothis bonus episode of Journey
with Jake.
I'm your host, jake Bushman.
New episodes of Journey withJake drop every Thursday, but I
love releasing extra episodes onholidays.
So, with today being GoodFriday, I couldn't pass up the
chance to share this specialconversation with you If you
haven't checked out yesterdayGood Friday.
I couldn't pass up the chanceto share this special
(01:46):
conversation with you If youhaven't checked out yesterday's
episode.
I highly recommend it.
I had a great time talking withChris Nance about his life as a
riverboat pilot on theMississippi River and his
exciting new venture as partowner of Backbone Coffee.
It was a fascinatingconversation, so be sure to give
it a listen.
Today's bonus episode with DrDouglas Brower really opened my
eyes to the idea that, whileadventures and experiences shape
(02:06):
us, there's something specialabout coming home.
So let's walk the Camino, visitprisons and explore the world
through the lens of travel andfaith with Dr Douglas Brower.
All right, well, I'm excited.
Today I have Douglas Brower.
He said for me to call him Doug, not Douglas.
Thank you, jake Good Doug.
(02:26):
Welcome to the show.
Thanks for coming on Journeywith Jake.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Good to be with you.
I look forward to ourconversation.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Absolutely.
If you're somebody who has goneout and seen the world a little
bit, you've traveled a littlebit, you've done some things,
you've written a book.
The book's called theTraveler's Path Finding
Spiritual Growth and InspirationThrough Travel.
I want to dive into that alittle bit.
Before we get into all that,and where you've been and some
of your stories and adventurestell us a little bit about Doug,
where you're from, where yougrew up, and a little bit about
(02:54):
your family.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I grew up in Western Michigan, went to college here
and then moved away for morethan 40 years and, as my wife
will tell you, I dragged her allover the world.
You'd think we were a militaryfamily, but no, but we did live
in a number of places and then,in retirement, I thought it was
her call.
So we're back to pretty muchwhere I grew up, which is a
(03:17):
strange experience.
I'm not the same person, andthis community is different from
the way I remember it too.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Very good.
So you said you got a wife, anykids?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
I have two daughters who are millennials and they
think I know nothing abouttechnology.
But look at this I have amicrophone.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
I was going to say you got a microphone there.
That's pretty good, very good.
So two daughters excellent,living in western Michigan.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Oh, that is the hard part, although it leads to more
travel.
One is in Minneapolis and theother is in Seattle, and that's
where the grandchildren are too.
Yeah, we're going to see themin a few weeks.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Nice.
I'm a new grandparent myself,so as a grandfather that you are
, have you noticed that you kindof have to travel to them.
Is that kind of how it worksout?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Since we live quite close to the lake, they enjoy
coming here in the summer andthen they play pretty hard in
the water for a week, and so Ithink we designed it that way
that this would be a vacationdestination for them.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Perfect, that works out good, then that's awesome.
Then you can have the grandkidscome to you for them.
Perfect, that works out good,then that's awesome.
Then you can have the grandkidscome to you.
That sounds amazing.
I love it All right.
So, doug, tell me about thebook you wrote, the Traveler's
Path Finding Spiritual Growthand Inspiration Through Travel.
What was kind of the reasoningbehind it, and tell me a little
bit about that.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Well, it was my younger daughter who suggested
it to me.
I was thinking about a new bookproject and she said Dad, it's
obvious.
I mean, you have spent yourlife moving around going places.
I mean, why don't you writeabout that?
And so it clicked right thatevening and I began to reflect
on a lifetime of not just movingaround, but going places, going
(05:04):
on mission trips, pilgrimagesand so on, there was a lot of
material to draw on.
Let me add this part too when Iwas a child, my family would go
on long, long road trips, threeweeks every summer and we went
to all 48, lower 48 states, allof Canada, and I got this urge
(05:25):
to go places.
I think my parents gave me thegift of curiosity and I didn't
get a trust fund, but of all thepossible gifts to get, I think
I got a wonderful one.
They made me a curious person.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Very good.
So you kind of had that kind ofgrowing up, that kind of set
the foundation for you.
It sounds like of wanting toexplore and travel and see the
world.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, and I hope my sisters don't listen in on this,
but they've never left WesternMichigan and I know they've gone
places and traveled a bit, butthey didn't pick it up.
They didn't pick up the bug theway I did.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, and I want to talk about that.
So you grew up Western Michiganbut you guys did your little
traveling as a family but thenyou left for 40 years.
Right, when did that take you?
Like, where are some of theplaces that took you?
You mentioned mission trips.
You talk about pilgrimages.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, what are some of the places that this led you?
So the first place I went wasto New Jersey.
I'm a Presbyterian pastor, so Iwent to a Presbyterian seminary
and, believe me, new Jersey isa long way from Western Michigan
.
I thought, well, they speakEnglish there, I should be okay.
But the culture is verydifferent and they recognize me
(06:40):
as being very different too.
So that was my first experienceof going away.
I've lived in the Midwest,served a couple of churches here
, and then the last long-termchurch I served was in South
Florida of all places, fortLauderdale.
And then for five years, at theend of my career, I served an
English-speaking church inZurich, switzerland.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I'm heading back there this weekend for something
else.
It was a remarkable time in mylife of stretching and shaping
who I am as a person.
At age 60, I was required tolearn a new language for my work
permit.
I was very excited.
I think my wife was a littleless excited about it than I was
, but what a remarkableexperience.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
How do you go about that?
Because I know, you know I'mnot 60, but it's hard for me.
I feel like it's hard to learnnew things like that.
How do you go about learning alanguage at that age?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Well, ok, it helps to have a curious spirit In the US
students typically and I thinkthis may be changing.
So I know of my own.
I've got some great nieces andnephews who are learning
languages at an early age, but Iwasn't given a choice to learn
a new language until high schooland I chose Latin for thinking,
(07:57):
well, okay, I'll never use thisagain, but anyway, when I found
myself in Switzerland and had arequirement to gain proficiency
in the language for a workpermit, I took it as a challenge
.
If you read my book, you'll seethat I take on huge challenges
in my life, and that was a bigone.
Learning a language after age60 is not easy.
(08:20):
Oh, I can tell you a funnystory about that too.
No one will ever mistake me fora native German speaker the
youth in the church, who willjust tell you whatever they're
thinking.
The youth in the church saidplease speak English, your
German hurts our ears.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Oh, I love it.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
So, yeah, I did pass the exam, but no one will ever
think I'm great at German.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
I love the fact, though, that you, like you said
you had kind of a curious mindand you wanted to learn, and you
did it.
I think that's fantastic,because I know, you know, when
you get older, sometimes it'slike for me, I mean, I'm like I
don't know if I want to.
That just sounds daunting.
You know, you think about manlearning another language sounds
daunting.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I discovered in the writing of this book that there
are spiritual writers out thereHenry Nowen comes to mind but
there are spiritual writers whosay that language learning is a
key to hospitality, it's a keyto loving the stranger, I mean,
all of which are foundational tomy faith.
So the way to reach out, get toknow a stranger, is to learn
(09:28):
their language, learn what isimportant to them, right?
So I was thinking about it inspiritual terms when I struggled
to learn this new language.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
I like that you shared that, because I spent
some time on a church missionmyself in Uruguay, and so I
learned Spanish, and that's agreat way to look at it.
As you know, rather than justI'm learning it so I can
communicate, it's getting toknow the people and being able
to serve them by speaking thelanguage.
I never, you know, I hadn'treally done a main here.
(09:58):
You know I've been.
I've been there for over Idon't know it's been quite a
while now, but that's that'simpressive.
I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I don't think I could have articulated it at the time
.
I was learning the language,but in doing the research for
the book it started to fall intoplace.
Yeah, this is what it means towelcome.
The stranger.
Americans are not always humble.
When they travel, americansexpect people to speak English
to them.
So learning to speak thelanguage of another is a way of
(10:26):
being humble in the presence ofother people.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
I like that.
That's a great way to look atit.
So let's talk about the wholetravel aspect of everything,
cause this book I mean it'scalled the traveler's path.
Yeah, and there was kind of aquestion.
I was kind of looking at yourbio reading a little bit about
you, and there the question wasposed there and I'll ask you
this question is travel good forus, and why is it good for us
if it is?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
the curious thing I discovered is that the the
answer is not always.
Sometimes travel is bad for us,bad for the planet.
It's bad for the places wevisit.
I mean, you think ofover-touristed cities in Europe,
for example.
What I set out to do in thebook is to challenge people to
think more deeply about whatthey're doing, to be open to new
(11:11):
experiences, to makeconnections that they might not
ordinarily make, and I can'tresist saying this to you.
Some people are going to listento our conversation and say you
know, I would never go on avacation with that guy.
So rest assured that I thinksometimes a vacation is just a
vacation.
(11:31):
You go away to a lake for a fewdays, you read a book, sit in
the sun.
I get that.
I've done my share, done myshare, but there are times when
a journey somewhere can be farmore than that when we can be
(11:52):
changed by the experience.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Do you have any examples of something in your
life that you could?
Speaker 2 (11:54):
share with us that was impactful to you.
This was one of the first ones.
It happened the very first timeI went to Israel.
I was not aware, but I mean Ithought there were Arab Muslims
and there were Jewish IsraeliJews and it turns out about 5%
of the population is Christianand they've been in the land
since well, since Jesus was inthe land.
So while I was there, I met aMelkite Catholic Arab Christian
(12:18):
priest whose name is FatherShakur, catholic Arab Christian
priest whose name is FatherShakur.
He messed with my mind and westarted a friendship that
continues to this day.
He became Archbishop of Galilee.
He's been a guest in my home inthe US.
I've been a guest in his homein northern Israel.
I began to see that the worldis a little bit more complicated
(12:39):
than I knew before.
There aren't just two points ofview, there are multiple points
of view for understanding.
Yeah, we don't have to talkabout the Middle East right now,
but there's a lot going onthere that I didn't know before.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Absolutely.
That's a good example of goingsomeplace like that.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
I can't resist adding this too.
So I came back and my mind wasblown.
A couple of people we traveledwith had even more transforming
experiences.
There was a woman who was ahigh level executive at GE
corporate level position.
She was so taken by the storywe heard this father Shakur
started a school.
She left her job soon aftergetting back and she said I'm
(13:21):
going to devote my life to thisschool.
I'm going to raise money in theU?
S so that Jews and Christiansand Druze and Muslims can all
come together and, as fatherShakur puts it, learn, learn
peace on the desktops ofchildren.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
It's an interesting way to talk about it and you met
, you talked about vacations andvacations.
Yeah, there, we've all done it.
I mean, trust me, I love totake a break every now and again
and just be able to turn it offand, you know, not really focus
, so to speak.
But you talked about havingthese meaningful trips and
obviously for her it was superimpactful.
(13:57):
If she quits her job to pursuethat, yeah.
Wow, if she quits her job topursue that?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, I mean wow.
So this is a lot of what I havedone in my career as a pastor.
I can lead people down a path,but I mean that's just part of
the process.
Something has to happen withinthem so I can put them in a
position where they can bechanged.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
You talk about.
Something I kind of read inyour bio as well is about you
know, as a way that has impactand things like that and how you
get to what you call a worthyadventure.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Talk about that to me a little bit, about what that
means to you originally thephrase worthy adventure comes
from an ethicist at DukeUniversity, Stanley Hauerwas,
and he would like to see all oflife as a worthy adventure.
So, whatever you give yourself,to give all of yourself, be
(14:53):
willing to die for whatever itis.
You're doing that kind of Idon't know, self-giving.
Well, I guess I do that a littlebit, but I wanted to think of
my travels as worthy adventures,places where I give of myself
and I'm looking to be changed inthe process.
(15:14):
I wanted to call the bookWorthy Adventure at an early
stage the adventure at an earlystage.
And I had a few other titles inmind, but the publisher the
publisher is not wildlyenthusiastic about that one.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
I like that title though, especially, you know,
because Journey with Jake's kindof an adventure podcast about
people's journey, so I think ofwow travel and you can have
travel be a worthy adventure.
I like that.
I like the sound of that.
One thing you talked about, tooyou said some of the places
you've been.
It's about meeting people andseeing the culture, and you
talked about visiting prisons,things like that.
Please, please, divulge.
(15:52):
I want to hear some of this.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
When I was at seminary in New Jersey, I worked
one day a week as a studentchaplain in Holmesburg Prison in
Philadelphia Again light yearsfrom Western Michigan, an inner
city maximum security prison inPhiladelphia and I learned there
how to well, how to be a pastor.
(16:16):
But my job was to recognizethese men as human beings.
I would sit in their cells andlisten to their stories and look
at the photos of children andthat sort of thing.
My job was to recognize theirhumanity.
I had this early experience inprison work and then throughout
my life I seemed to be drawnback.
(16:37):
I took a group one time toSouth Africa.
We had a connection with achurch in South Africa but we
were wandering around oh, Iforget the city at the southern
tip of African continent, butabout a half hour ferry ride
from Cape Town is Robben Island,where a former president of
(16:59):
South Africa I'm blanking on hisname where he was held in
prison for 18 years NelsonMandela.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Nelson Mandela yep, I was like Mandela came up, I
couldn't think of Nelson Mandelaabsolutely.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
So we you know lots of people have made this trip.
But you go and you look in hiscell and you think about
spending 18 years of your lifein this tiny cell and how
transformative it is.
And he writes in one of hisbooks his most famous book that
you can know a lot about acountry by visiting its prisons.
So then I think back toHolmesburg and I'm thinking
(17:35):
about Robben Island.
I'll give you a couple more One.
I did an interim pastorate inthe Hague and on a free
afternoon I would pedal my biketo the beach.
Who knew that the Hague was abeach town?
Every time I went I would pedalmy bike by what's
affectionately called the OrangeHotel by the locals.
(17:56):
It's a prison and it's acrossthe street from the
International Criminal Court,and often people who are tried
for these terrible crimes ofgenocide and so on are held in
this prison.
Well, it looked a lot likeHolmesburg to me.
Through a church connection, Igot to meet one of the judges
there and she took me on a tour.
(18:18):
Just about every time I took atour group to Israel.
One of the places we went inJerusalem was the home of
Caiaphas, the high priest.
What they do is they allowpilgrims to descend a ladder
into a pit beneath this home.
The thinking is that this iswhere Jesus spent the night
before he was executed the nextday.
So pilgrims descend into thispit.
(18:39):
We stand there.
I typically read the storyabout what we believe happened
there.
I find that for just abouteverybody who does it, it's a
very moving experience and onceagain, if we had been there, our
job would have been torecognize the humanity in this
(19:00):
person who was waiting for hisexecution the next day.
Those are my prison stories.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yeah, no, I love it, I appreciate it.
You said the word pilgrim, sowe'll jump into pilgrimages.
Then.
Camino de Santiago when I thinkof people doing a pilgrimage, I
think of the Camino and peopleof Spain, France, wherever.
I know you walked some of it, Idon't know how much you did.
Can you tell me a little bitabout where you were?
When did you do it?
That sort of thing?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
To back up a little bit Christians have been doing
this since, I don't know, thefirst century, not the first
century, but a thousand AD,let's say, the most popular
pilgrimage destinations wereJerusalem, rome and, believe it
or not, well, this cathedral inSantiago de Compostela where the
bones of St James apparentlyare entombed, who knows?
(19:47):
It doesn't make that muchdifference to me, but there are
these three wonderfuldestinations, and pilgrims have
been walking these paths thenfor hundreds of years.
The reformers during theReformation saw no value in
doing this walk, and sopilgrimage died out in the
Protestant areas of Europe.
(20:07):
Luther said, you know, goddoesn't care, which is probably
true.
God doesn't care where you walk.
There is something deeplymoving about following in the
footsteps of all of these peopleof faith over the centuries, so
that's what I find sofascinating.
And then what was unexpected?
What has been unexpected is thepeople I meet from all over the
(20:29):
world walking along, and wewould walk together for two or
three days at a time.
So in 2019, freshly retired, Iwalked the northern route of the
Camino de Santiago 500 miles.
I don't know what I wasthinking, jake.
I had everything on my back andI was walking.
(20:51):
I averaged about 17 miles a day.
I can't believe I did it, butit was yet another life-changing
experience for me.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
So the Northern part is that across Spain.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Yeah, the northern, yeah, right across the northern
part, across Spain.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
I have a good friend of mine who was about to go.
He had it all set up to go andthen COVID happened.
I think he's going next summeror this summer, hopefully across
my fingers for him.
Okay, you talked about, yeah,the people you meet.
How does this work?
Because I know for him.
He was saying that there's allthese little places that you
stop every night.
For you, I guess it happenedthe same way.
But the people, how did you?
(21:28):
Is it just people walking alongand just strike up conversation
?
How does this work?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
I met people literally from all over the
world.
I met very few from the US, notsure why.
I met a Catholic priest fromChile and he was starting a
seminary in Siberia and hespeaks Spanish and now Russian
and English.
We struck up a conversationimmediately and I was fascinated
(21:54):
by what he was doing with hislife.
I'll give you one moreillustration.
A man from Ireland was walkingwith his father and he had lost
his marriage and his career toalcohol.
So he was out there trying tosort out his life, to put it
back together again, to spendmeaningful time with his father.
And so I guess because of mycareer, I'm used to hearing
(22:17):
stories like that, but still itwas very powerful.
And then I mean it happened.
Something like that happenedevery day.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
How many days were you out there?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
It took me 28 days, and then some people can't help
themselves.
They keep going to the ocean 28days, and then some people
can't help themselves.
They keep going to the ocean,which is another I don't know
two or three days walk fromSantiago.
I took a bus.
I thought I'd walk enough, butI did put my toe in the ocean.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
So 28 days Did you go by yourself?
Did you go with family?
How'd you do this?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah, again, I don't know what I was thinking, but
yes, I went by myself, hadeverything in my back, I washed
my clothes every night andpilgrim hostels are called
albergues, so you sleep prettyclose together and there's
snoring.
And I do confess, if you'd bemy confessor right now, I did
give myself a treat a few timesand I stayed in a small hotel so
(23:09):
I had a bathroom to myself.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Good for you and so every day out walking yeah, I
don't, you know, I don't blameyou.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I would every now and again, I would treat myself
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
I thought it was a bad pilgrim.
What were some of thechallenges of it, besides just
the walking itself?
Was I mean?
Was there weather?
What was the weather like?
Did you ever get sick?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Whatever happened, I know the story I'm going to tell
you.
The weather was perfect.
I had a rain poncho, never usedit.
So I arrived at the startingpoint, which is on the French
side of the Pyrenees, and I wasjet lagged, dehydrated, and the
weather on that first day wasunseasonably warm.
(23:48):
I tell this story in the book.
There was no holding me back.
I had been planning this forweeks, but I should have spent a
recovery day inSaint-Jean-Pied-de-Port, this
little French town.
But I set out the next morning.
I got a late start foruninteresting reasons, and I
(24:09):
didn't make it to the top of thePyrenees.
So the sun is going down, I'mexhausted, dehydrated.
I'm just leaning on my hikingpoles and I thought I had one
option at that point, and thatwas to spend the night next to
the path.
So I rolled out my sleeping bagand I didn't know if there were
wild animals.
I assume they're hunted toextinction, but I didn't know
(24:33):
that.
And I don't camp.
I hate camping.
But there I am lying on theground next to the path,
somewhere between France andSpain.
Okay, and that was a scary night, and I know I'm making light of
it, but what was going on in mymind was okay, doug, this is
the story of your life Bitingoff a lot more than you can chew
(24:57):
, thinking you can do anythingwhen you really can't do
everything.
I think I learned the mostpowerful lesson of that
pilgrimage on the very firstnight.
So a very sober I was going tosay young man, a very sober old
man woke up the next morning,grateful to be alive and far
(25:19):
more realistic about what mycapabilities are.
And yet I kept going.
I stopped at the little town atthe top of the Pyrenees, had
breakfast, and I just kept going.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Fantastic, I love that.
I love hearing that hadbreakfast and I just kept going.
Fantastic, I love that.
I love hearing that you talkedabout.
You know pilgrimages were athing that people did for
religious purposes and thingslike that.
For all the people youencountered, were they out there
for religious purposes.
Do you have to have a religiouspurpose?
Do you have to have a spiritualpurpose to do it?
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I love this question because, I'd say, 99% of the
people I met said to me I'm notdoing, I'm not, this is not some
sort of Catholic thing, I'm notreligious Okay, all right, but
they knew how to do it.
Do you know what I mean?
I think there is within all ofus the spiritual longing, and
they were not going toacknowledge it, but that's why
(26:09):
they were out there.
I'll give you an illustrationToward the end of the walk,
there's a huge iron cross andthe idea is that you bring a
stone from home, a burden, youlay it at the foot of the cross
and then you keep walking.
It's a ritual, right?
Well, all of these people I waswalking with who claim, no, no,
(26:33):
we're not religious in any way.
They knew what to do.
They walked to the cross, theyleft their stone, their burden,
at the foot of the cross andthey kept going.
And I thought it's within allof us.
These are rituals that feed us.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
I just wondered about that because you know my, my
friend, who's going this summer.
I don't think he claims to beany kind of you know, any kind
of religion or anything likethat, and it sounds like you
said the majority, no, no, no,I'm not.
You know, this isn't a religion, but yet they're following the
rituals and they're, you know,and I'm sure they all, like you
said, I think they all discoversomething within themselves on
it.
It sounds like you did firstnight.
(27:14):
You had a realization that cameto you.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
It was a religious experience.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yes, On that same topic of religion spirituality
in your travels, when you'revisiting places, when you're
finding purpose in your travelsspiritually for you, what, what
does it mean to you and what aresome examples of that for you?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
You would think that would be an easy question to
answer, and it's a big question.
All I can say is I grew up inthis closed community and a very
conservative community inWestern Michigan, and as soon as
I set out, I think I discoveredthat the world was far bigger
than I ever knew.
Now I was given a wonderfulgift by my parents not just
(27:59):
curiosity but faith and so on.
But so I knew who I was as Iwas moving around.
But everywhere I went my worldjust kept expanding.
I'm one of those people whogets excited by that.
I think there are plenty ofpeople who are afraid of that.
I mean, they would prefer tostay with what they know, what's
familiar, and I do my best tounderstand it, but I like to
(28:23):
challenge it too.
One more related comment aboutthat I think I realized how
unimportant I, how what a smallpiece of this universe I really
am, by all the moving around Idid.
I'm one guy and there are lotsof guys and there are lots of
(28:43):
women out there and we are.
When we discover each other andlisten to each other's stories,
that's when we start becomingmore human.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
I agree a hundred percent.
I think that's why I love doingthis so much.
I get to meet so many differentpeople and hear different
thoughts that I, you know,hadn't even thought of before
and I don't know.
It makes me feel more human, Iguess, when I hear other people
share their stories and theirand their journeys.
So I love it, I appreciate yousharing who you are.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
I think a lot of my work is what you do, except I
didn't have a microphone.
I would ask people to tell metheir stories.
That was my life.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
One thing I want to ask you too, because I kind of
read this too in your bio alittle bit your thought on
bucket list, because I know alot of people say, oh my bucket
list.
What are your thoughts onbucket list?
Speaker 2 (29:30):
You know that's a relatively new term.
Oh my bucket list.
What are your?
thoughts on bucket lists.
You know that's a relativelynew term.
The movie came out and then, Idon't know, five years later,
that term made it into theOxford English Dictionary.
So what that says to me is it'sa relatively new concept.
What studies show is that mostof us talk about bucket lists to
impress other people.
The truth of the matter is thatwhen you are at the end of your
(29:52):
life or you're seriously ill,what people crave at that point
is the familiar they want to bewith people they know they want
to do the familiar things intheir lives.
They're not thinking aboutParis in the spring.
I'm not a big fan of BucketList, to be honest, and to give
you a better movie title thanthe one with is it Jack
(30:14):
Nicholson and Morgan Freeman?
A better movie title would beit's a Wonderful Life.
So there, oh, I'm forgettinghis name too, but the main
character-.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Jimmy Stewart.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Jimmy Stewart.
He never went anywhere.
He dreamed of leaving town, hedreamed of going to university,
and none of that ever happened.
And yet he discovers at the endof the movie that he had a
meaningful life.
But having said that, there areplaces I would go in a minute
(30:58):
If you said hey, Doug, let's goto wherever.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
I'd say, yep, my passport's in my pocket.
So on that subject, then,looking at the future for you,
any places you have planned togo or any place you want to go,
Where's your bucket list?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Pardon me.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
What's your bucket list item?
Just kidding, pardon me.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
What's your bucket list item?
Just kidding, when I retiredfrom the church in Zurich,
switzerland, I returned toEurope twice to do interim
pastorates while churches searchfor a permanent person.
So the first time I went wasjust for a few months.
It was in Luzern, switzerland,hard posting.
And then, most recently, a yearor so ago, I came back from the
(31:32):
Hague.
I spent nine months thereworking.
If one of those churches inthat international network came
along and said, Doug, would youhelp us out for a few months,
yes, I mean, I know what theanswer would be.
So that's my bucket list.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yeah, I love it.
No, that's fantastic.
Of all the places you've been,all the things that you've done,
and you sit back and you looklike, okay, I've done this in my
life and I've been here andI've done that.
Is there any particular placethat has special meaning to you?
Or if you can only go back toone place, where would you go?
Speaker 2 (32:05):
I'm going to cry while I say this.
I live very close to LakeMichigan.
We're not on Lakefront, but Ican see the sun setting right
now over the lake.
This has been my I guess I hatethis expression my happy place.
Whenever I was feeling low inmy life, I would dream of
(32:28):
sitting on the beach at LakeMichigan and all I can say is
this has always felt like hometo me, and I think there is a
spiritual truth there too.
All of this moving around, allof the searching that people do,
I think, is a search for home.
Where is it that I belong?
I hate to say it.
After 45 years of lookingaround, I'm back where I think I
belong.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Where you belong and where you're home.
I love it Through all yourtravels, through all the places
you've been and what you've beendoing.
What would you say are some ofthe challenges or difficulties
that?
Speaker 2 (33:00):
you faced.
Oh, you mean the ones thataren't of my choosing.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah right.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Or the ones I'm responsible for.
Yeah, I am not Confl.
Conflict is not an easy thingfor me, and so I tend to back
away and look for other placesto go when there's a situation
of conflict.
That's been my.
I think the most difficult partof my life and yet I have
learned through some therapy,through life experience, to
(33:31):
address it a little bit morehead on than I did earlier in my
life.
I'm a conflict avoider.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
I'm right there with you.
I do not want to.
Yeah, I do not want to havethat conflict for sure.
Well, I got to tell you, Doug,this has been inspiring for me,
so I appreciate you sharing whatyou've shared.
It's really helped me.
Before we wrap up, though, Iwant if people want to get this
(33:58):
book or they want to learn moreabout you, where can they do
that?
Where can they find information?
Speaker 2 (34:02):
I must have turned the cameras right behind me.
It's available on Amazon,Barnes Noble.
If I can get it into your localbookstore, I'll do that
Excellent.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Yeah, I'll do that Excellent.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Yeah, all the usual places.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
And it's called.
Tell us the name of the fulltitle again.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
The book is called the Traveler's Path, and that's
my best side on the cover.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
The backside there.
That's the best side.
Love it Fantastic.
My final question to you.
This is a question I like toask everybody who comes on the
show, because why not?
It's an adventure podcast.
Why not For you, doug?
What does adventure mean to you?
Speaker 2 (34:41):
I can say it in a sentence it's going somewhere
and finding meaning in theexperience.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Finding meaning in the experience.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
I'm not going to go on vacation with that guy.
Here's what I love.
Here's what I love about I wasgoing to say I'm not going to go
on vacation with that guy.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Here's what I love.
Here's what I love about theconversation that we had today.
We talk about places you'vebeen and finding meaning in
travel and things like that, butfor you it's all about that
meaning of being home and foryou and I love that because
sometimes I sit here and I talkto all these people who do these
amazing wild things, and I'msitting there thinking did I
miss out?
Am I?
Because I'm not doing all ofthese things and then it just
(35:16):
really helped me realize thatyou know what?
I've got it here with me, I'vegot my wife, I've got my kids.
I'm blessed and to be home withthem is a huge blessing, and so
this has been great for me.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.
Yeah, I sensed that we werekindred spirits.
I like that.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Yeah, absolutely, Douglas.
Thank you so much for coming onJourney with Jake.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Thanks for having me.
It's been a treat.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
A special thank you to Dr Douglas Brower for joining
me and sharing his experiencesand insights with all of us.
If you'd like to dive deeperinto his journey, be sure to
check out his book theTraveler's Path Finding
Spiritual Growth and InspirationThrough Travel, available on
Amazon, and I will include alink in the show notes for you.
And, of course, a big thank youto all of you for tuning into
(35:58):
this bonus episode of Journeywith Jake.
I'll be back next Thursday withanother great episode featuring
David Schaffran, who fell inlove with salsa dancing, so much
so that he traveled to one ofits hotspots Medellin, Colombia.
You won't want to miss it.
Until then, remember, it's notalways about the destination as
it is about the journey.
Take care, everybody.
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