June 12, 2025 • 54 mins
#164 - What healing power can be found in visiting sites of tragedy and suffering? For Dr. Chad Scott, dark tourism became an unexpected lifeline during his darkest days.
When severe health issues led to a liver transplant, Dr. Scott discovered profound meaning and purpose by exploring places marked by historical tragedy. From standing in gas chambers at Auschwitz to witnessing the aftermath of atomic destruction in Hiroshima, these powerful experiences helped him process his own struggles with divorce, career setbacks, and chronic illness.
"When you're going through hell, keep going," became his mantra, borrowed from Churchill's famous words. Throughout our conversation, Chad reveals how confronting mortality at history's darkest sites paradoxically taught him to live with greater intention and purpose. The practice of "memento mori"—remembering one's mortality—isn't about dwelling in darkness, but using awareness of life's brevity to live more meaningfully.
As a therapist with decades of experience, Chad brings unique professional insights to how dark tourism functions as a form of existential therapy. He explains that standing in places where countless people suffered and died doesn't leave you unchanged—it transforms you into someone with deeper compassion and greater resilience. These experiences, from Paris catacombs to plantation slavery museums, challenge visitors to connect with humanity's shared suffering while finding strength in storytelling and remembrance.
Chad's journey culminated in his book "Beyond the Darkness: Transformative Journeys Through Dark Tourism," where he details how these profound experiences helped him overcome crippling anxiety and find purpose during his health crisis. His story reminds us that sometimes the path through personal darkness requires confronting humanity's darkest moments—not to wallow in despair, but to find the meaning that illuminates our way forward.
Listen to discover how pushing beyond your comfort zone—whether through adventure or confronting difficult histories—might just transform your own life. What places have changed you? Where might you go to find yourself?
To learn more about Dr. Chad Scott and Dark Tourism visit his website www.drchadscott.com. You can also purchase a copy of his book from his website.
Want to be a guest on Journey with Jake? Send me a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/journeywithjake
Visit LandPirate.com to get your gear that has you, the adventurer, in mind. Use the code "Journey with Jake" to get an additional 15% off at check out.
Visit geneticinsights.co and use the code "DISCOVER25" to enjoy a sweet 25% off your first purchase.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
As I was browsing online, I came across a
definition of dark tourism thatreally stood out to me A unique
form of travel that exploresplaces associated with
historical catastrophes, it wenton to say.
For many travel enthusiasts,it's a journey that goes beyond
typical sightseeing, offering apowerful connection to the past.
For my guest today, chad Scott,that couldn't be more true.
(00:23):
Chad has faced his share ofpersonal challenges navigating a
difficult divorce and dealingwith health issues and he's
found unexpected insight inhealing through exploring these
heavy, often hauntingdestinations.
As Chad puts it, when you'regoing through hell, keep going.
Get ready for a powerful rideinto the world of dark tourism
(00:43):
with Chad Scott.
Welcome to Journey with Jake.
Get ready for a powerful rideinto the world of dark tourism
with Chad Scott.
As they share experiences andstories from the different
adventures they have been on,not only will you be entertained
(01:11):
, but you will also hear thefailures and trials each guest
faces and what they have done orare doing to overcome the
hardships that come their way.
My goal is to take each of uson a journey through the
experiences of my guests, withthe hope that you'll be
entertained and inspired toovercome your day-to-day
challenges.
After all, it's not all aboutthe destination, as it is about
the journey.
Hello, my friends, and welcometo Journey with Jake.
(01:45):
I'm your host, jake Bushman,and I'm so glad you're here.
I'm especially excited abouttoday's episode with Dr Chad.
Scott Chad is a therapist who'sfaced his own share of personal
struggles and, as you'll hear,dark tourism has played a
surprising and powerful role inhis healing journey.
Now, if you're not familiarwith dark tourism, you're not
alone.
I wasn't either until recently,but after talking with Chad, I
(02:07):
can honestly say I'm intriguedand even a little hooked.
Before we dive into ourconversation, just a quick
reminder make sure to subscribeto the show wherever you listen
to podcasts, so you don't missany upcoming episodes of Journey
with Jake.
If you'd like to see clips frompast, current or even future
shows, follow me on Instagram atjourneywithjakepodcast.
That's also where I share a bitmore of my personal life and
(02:28):
adventures, so it's a great wayto connect.
And if you prefer watching fullepisodes, head over to YouTube
and search for Journey with Jakepodcast.
While you're there, do me afavor hit that subscribe button
on the channel.
Lastly, a big shout out toPodmatch, where I've met so many
amazing guests, including Chad.
I'm also part of the PodmatchPodcast Network.
(02:48):
You can check it out atpodmatchcom forward slash
network.
This conversation with ChadScott was eye-opening, emotional
and incredibly inspiring.
If you enjoyed this episode, Ialso recommend checking out
episode 141 with Bjorn Lestrudanother amazing journey worth
hearing.
All right, let's jump into it.
(03:09):
Here's my conversation withChad Scott.
I'm excited.
Today I have someone that Ifound we talk a lot about dark
tourism.
That's what we're going to talkabout today.
I don't know a whole lot aboutthat, so I'm counting on you to
kind of explain what that is toeverybody.
Before we dive into ourconversation, chad Scott, tell
us a little bit about who youare, where you're from that sort
of thing.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I'm a therapist.
I've been in the mental healthfield for gosh 25 years now.
Majority of it I've been atherapist.
I taught at a university on theside for about 18 years
teaching psychology.
I'm located up in northernMinnesota, about an hour north
of Duluth and about a half hourhour south of the Canadian
border.
(03:48):
I've been into tourism and forthe entirety of my life and went
through some pretty serioushealth issues about well, ended
up having a transplant about ayear ago, a little over a year
ago, had about 10 years ofautoimmune issues and that's
kind of what it culminated in.
And and I found a lot of soulsearching or did a lot of soul
(04:09):
searching and ended up kind offinding finding myself in in a
lot of dark tourism spots whereI felt like it really mirrored
some of my struggles and I sawlittle pieces of myself in the
of the various places I had hadgone and I wrote a book about it
.
So I wrote it's a memoir butit's also talks about dark
(04:30):
tourism spots across the worldthat I've been to, how they can
really impact you in yourhealing journey and how it can
help you build strength andresilience and things like that.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
That's why I love doing Journey with Jake.
I've talked to a lot of peoplewho are adventurous.
They do some adventurous thingsand it always seems to come
back to.
It's something that helps themin some way or another.
It does something for them.
For me, it's talking to thesefolks, talking to people like
you.
It does something for me, itbuilds me up, so I'm excited to
hear about that.
You talked about having somehealth issues.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Before we jump into some of that family, do you have
any kids or anything like that?
Yeah, I have a 25 year old.
He's a graduate of theuniversity of minnesota just
this last year he was electedmayor of our town so and he's
been my companion on on many, sowe have a lot of the same
interests and and he's been mycompanion on many of these dark
tourism travels and other funtravels yeah, 25 year old mayor,
huh yeah, yeah, one, yeah, oneof the youngest in Minnesota
(05:26):
history.
So that's pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
That is cool, that's awesome.
Well, good, glad to hear that.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
He amazes me mostly in good ways, but some in not so
good ways, but he amazes mejust about every day.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Yeah, that's pretty wild.
Wow, that's exciting.
Congratulations, that'sfantastic.
So I know you said before wegot going here and started
recording, you mentioned you'vedone a lot of like adventure
type travel and things like that.
But I know your story, yourstory is.
You kind of some thingshappened, you had some health
issues.
Do you mind kind of justtelling your story that we would
kind of know kind of where thisall came about?
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, absolutely Gosh .
So, like I said, I've been atraveler my whole life.
(06:26):
As a kid we traveled around thecountry visiting relatives and
hitting historical spots alongthe way, and I think that's
started where it might havestarted getting into my blood a
little bit.
I became a pilot in college.
I got my private pilot'slicense and that's been
something that's always been inmy blood also.
So I just love the travel,wanted to be an airline pilot,
but gosh settled for being atherapist.
Yeah, ended up getting marriedand we were married for well, we
were together for almost 11years, 12 years, something like
that Great marriage.
And then we had a rough patchat that.
Last year I started getting adisease called vasculitis, where
it's inflammation of your bloodvessels, and it just wrecked
(06:46):
havoc on my life.
I started getting reallyanxious on top of it, probably
always had a little bit of anunderlying anxiety problem my
whole life.
But then it really came outduring that time and as a
therapist, I'm just a personjust like anybody else and I
really, really struggled withthat and it really, you know, my
wife was going through her owndifficulties with some things
and we ended up having, you know, getting divorced because of
(07:08):
various issues related to thosethings and I had to do some soul
searching.
I was completely lost.
I was heartbroken, drinking waytoo much beer and what I started
doing is going on theseadventure tourism types of trips
.
You know, for example, I wentto Costa Rica.
I left a job that I got passedover for a CEO job and it was a
place that I'd put in gosh, Ithink, 18 years.
(07:30):
I worked at a place and reallypaid my dues and and nepotism is
what ended up happening.
So I left there and I had nojob, had no idea what to do, and
I went, went to Costa Rica andjust did some, you know,
adventure types of tourism, wenton hikes and zip lines and
scuba diving for the first timeand you know, doing all these
things outside of my comfortzone.
(07:51):
And, and I'm sure you know, youdo a.
You do a podcast on adventureand I'm willing to bet coming
out of your comfort zone comesup probably at least every
couple episodes 100%.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
I think I hear that almost every episode.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
And there is absolutely no growth that comes
out of a comfort zone.
Growth comes out of pushingyour comfort zones.
And you know, I tell my clientscomfort zones are for coach
potatoes, it's.
You know, people, I mean that's.
Depression breeds in comfortzones, anxiety breeds in comfort
zones and you need to keeppushing them.
So I got back from Costa Ricaand I really still didn't know
(08:26):
what to do and, kind of a funnystory I got back from Costa Rica
and I dated a girl that Iactually was kind of enjoying
and thought maybe there wassomething there, and she ended
up marrying her ex-boyfriendwhile I was gone.
So, yeah, it was, yeah, it was.
So, yeah, that was anothershocker.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
And do you mind?
Do you mind if I ask yousomething before we jump in,
because I'm listening to thisand I'm thinking okay, you found
out, you have some.
What do you call it?
Vasculitis, is that what it wascalled?
Yeah, you got that.
You feel you see some anxietiesbuilding up.
You go through a divorce soyou're losing your marriage.
Divorce, so you're losing yourmarriage.
(09:07):
You lost your job.
You left your job, didn't havea job because you got passed
over.
It's just you're losing so much.
And then you go to Costa Ricamore to the story actually.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
yeah, I mean so I almost lost my dad during that
time.
It was about a month before mywife, my wife left me, about a
month before my wife left me andmy dad almost died of sepsis
down in Arizona.
So so I ended up actuallygetting a stomach equalized down
there and then gosh not to gettoo graphic, but I was passing
bloody stool for a while andended up getting diagnosed with
(09:36):
ulcerative colitis during thattime.
Yeah, it was just a reallyreally dark, dark, dark time in
my life.
You know, thankfully I had asupport system that, you know,
helped me get through that time,but I was really struggling.
Actually, my very first trip wasactually before the Costa Rica.
I had gone down to Florida andjust, you know, pushing my
comfort zone with various thingsdown there, just, and that was
(09:58):
a big step just doing somethingby myself, you know, without my
wife, and just, you know, and Ithink that's that's a huge thing
, and I and I know that there'sa lot of good books out there on
people traveling by themselvesto kind of find themselves, you
know, kind of the eat, pray,love type thing, you know.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
I wanted to ask you too, because, as you're down, I
mean you're down, you're, you'redown, I mean you're like
struggling with things as atherapist though do you think
that helped that you kind of hadsome of that background, or
what's your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
me.
So that was nice.
But I so I knew enough to gointo therapy because I knew I
was really struggling.
But I also pulled out a lot ofmy own coping skills.
I really started meditating forthe first time in my life.
I've always talked to you know,I knew with the research on
meditation it works just as goodor better than medication does
for anxiety and I was dying ofanxiety almost literally.
That really really helped.
I used to have this voice inthe back of my head, not a
literal voice, but just a, youknow, just that, that voice that
(11:06):
talks to you all the time andwhen I was going through the
divorce it was just like thissad poet living in my head that
just would never go away,telling me about this horrible
thing I was going through andhow lonely I was and how you
know how I, you know, lost thelove of my life and it was just
horrible.
Meditation just completelyknocked that voice right out of
my head and I have never had itsince.
(11:27):
I pulled out all the copingskills that I normally teach my
clients and it helped for sure.
Actually, I remember where Ileft off now.
So I got back from Costa Ricaand I still really couldn't
decide what I wanted to do.
So I got in my car and I droveout to Yellowstone and stayed
there for a week and I'mliterally sitting in the office
that I went to.
This was the clinic when I wasa kid and I always thought that,
(11:50):
oh, this would make a goodmental health clinic.
They moved the actual clinic toyou know, upgraded it, and I
own a private practice now inthe clinic I grew up with.
I finally pulled the pin onstarting a private practice and
I was only going to do it for acouple of years until I until I
found my direction.
And six years later, I'm stillhere and I love it.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
So Wow, good for you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
How was that trip toYellowstone?
I have a love for Yellowstone.
I've been to Yellowstone a fewfew times and I love it.
How was that trip for you?
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, you must not be too far there being in in.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Utah.
Yeah, not far at all.
Four hours, five hours,something like that.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
You know, just being amongst the buffalo roaming and
I really wanted to see a grizzlybear.
Never saw one, but I had mybear spray so I was ready.
Yeah, it was.
The beauty of it is just, youknow, you're not.
I'd never been to a place likethat and I'd never been a
mountain person.
I've never really explored themountains.
And then after that I've I'vegone to the Rocky mountains and
(12:46):
I can't wait to get back to themountains.
You know Colorado and you knowa variety of places I've been
now.
Yeah, the Costa Rica mountainswere pretty cool to go hiking
around the the Arenal volcanoand that's great.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
So you started your own practice.
You have your own practice,you're in that office, which is
cool.
It's cool that you're doingthat.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah, this was actually a little operating room
back in the day Now it's mytherapy office.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
But I know you said you had a transplant.
What a year ago, not too longago.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
I did a variety of adventure tourism things and
actually in Colorado I don'tknow if you knew this, but near
Great Sand Dunes National Parkpark gosh, am I saying that
wrong?
They have a alligator sanctuarythere where they take rescue
alligators from around you know,from florida and places where
natural alligators are from.
I think they even have thehappy gilmore alligator there.
So you pay money and you helpout their veterinary staff there
(13:41):
, inspect the alligators, so youwalk out barefoot in the swamps
, grab alligators by the tail,drag them to shore so they can
inspect them and you jump ontheir back.
I mean, it's like literallyyou're like crocodile hunter out
there.
Yeah, it's really gets the,gets the blood pumping, you know
, and I actually did a bunch ofstuff like that.
I started scuba diving and Iwas scuba diving with sharks and
(14:02):
got certified and did that.
And what else did I do?
Took a venomous snake handlingclass and in Florida and you
know, and I used to not even beable to watch it, talking about
comfort zones, I used to noteven be able to watch snakes on
TV.
It would just gross me out.
I'd get so much anxiety justwatching a snake.
And then I got to the pointwhere it's like I was actually
literally handling these snakeswith my hands and these hooks
(14:25):
and, yeah, it was really coolRattlesnakes, so so, yeah, I did
did a lot of stuff like thatand I had some really good years
.
I did a lot of adventure tourismand I and in the same time I've
always had a significant, deeprespect for history.
So I have always would go tohistorical spots.
Whenever I went somewhere, I'vealways kind of had a little
(14:45):
inside of me.
I've always liked kind ofexploring the taboo things that
are just a little, you know,things that push people's
comfort zones.
I remember National Geographicused to have a show called
National Geographic Taboo, wherethey just, you know, have real
strange things on there and Iwould, just, I was just
mesmerized by all that stuff.
You know Indiana Jones is myhero, just anything that's a
little out of, you know, out ofpeople's comfort zones.
(15:06):
So I would go to places aroundthe globe and in the middle of
this I started getting a stomachache and didn't think anything
of it.
I went to the doctor.
They said it was gastritis orsomething like that and take
these pills and it didn't goaway.
So they ultrasoned me and Istill thought maybe, oh maybe
it's just my gallbladder hurting.
And I got a call from thedoctor after this ultrasound and
(15:28):
they said you know, you havereally severe cirrhosis and the
symptoms you're having is endstage cirrhosis.
I on the couch right next to mehere just kind of staring at
the sky as the doctor wastelling me this and, just in
shock, not long after that, Igot real delusional with they
call it hepatic encephalopathy.
(15:48):
It's basically your bloodpoisoning your brain and it
starts swelling.
Your brain Went to the hospitaland you know, thankfully a lot
of people die of that and it wascaught early enough.
My son actually found me in bedjust out of it, completely out
of it, and I woke up in thehospital.
So I spent three days in thehospital and actually I got
treated for that.
And actually at that time Iwent for a transplant evaluation
(16:12):
down at the University ofMinnesota.
They had thought I'd get better.
Um, they thought maybe the thecirrhosis was, it wouldn't get
worse and you know I'd quitdrinking and I'd, and they
thought just figured, okay, well, maybe it'll just, you know
it'll, you'll always have anissue, but you know it might
improve, you know so you won'tneed a transplant ever.
I was doing quite well.
Actually, for a couple of yearsI was flying again and I was
(16:36):
for a couple of years.
I was flying again and I was,you know, living my life, and I
was actually in Oslo, norway,and I had just gotten back from
from Auschwitz and, yeah, it wasjust a an amazing, amazing few
weeks over there in in Europeand was in Auschwitz or not
Auschwitz Oslo.
I actually found my great greatgrandparents grave when I was
there.
That was kind of the mainreason I went to Oslo.
I wanted to see the fjords.
(16:56):
But I was starting to get reallysick when I was in Oslo and I
didn't know if it was my liverand I thought maybe it was, but
I was kind of hoping it wasn't.
But I got back and I took myblood tests and I was just off
the charts with my liver andsent back for a transplant
evaluation.
I was put on the transplantlist about a month later and
about a month after that I hadmy first liver for me and I went
(17:18):
down to the University ofMinnesota very excited.
And then there was a delay andthen I got sent home because the
family had backed out.
Wow, which was a real strangething, you know, backed out last
minute, I guess.
Yeah Well, what ended uphappening is, you know, out last
minute, I guess, yeah well,what ended up happening is, you
(17:39):
know, it took a while.
The liver was in st louis so ithad been flown to me.
The person was actually welland this is a real strange thing
is we were waiting for theperson to die and he was kind of
hanging on, you know, andtalking about the strange
feeling.
It's like am I going to getthis liver?
And you know it's it's anxietyon my part, but it's also it's
like gosh, I I going to get thisliver, and you know it's
anxiety on my part, but it'salso it's like gosh, I'm, you
know I'm waiting for somebody todie.
How like morbid is that.
(18:00):
And you know, and that's wheresome of my dark tourism
experiences came back, you knowalso, and I can explain that a
little bit later so the doctorwanted to do one more test,
since the guy was still alive,and the family said no, and and
the doctor said well, this ismaking me nervous, and the
doctor turned it down.
So I'm thinking, and at thattime my lungs were starting to,
(18:20):
or the sac around my lungs wasstarting to fill up with fluid
and I was getting really hard tobreathe and I was coughing all
the time and I was thinking like, am I going to die?
Because this family backed outand because my doctor turned it
down, you know, because hewanted this one last test and I
got sent home and I and I got acall a couple of weeks later
saying my grandma was going todie that night.
(18:41):
And and what was interestingabout that is, about five
minutes after that I got anotherphone call and it was my liver
and they said we got anotherliver for you.
Get down to Minneapolis.
So we, we rushed down toMinneapolis and actually my
grandma lived for a couple moredays but I mean talk about an
emotional shower, getting readyto go down to the university of
(19:02):
minnesota.
It's like it was almost.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
It was almost too much, yeah yeah, you go from
thinking you're gonna get one afew weeks before to going
through that whole stress ofthat whole moment getting there,
getting prepped, and then nope,and then the whole age your
grandmother's gonna pass away,and yeah, here's another call,
and now you're yeah, that's justa wave.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
I can't even imagine the emotions going on with that,
oh man you know, and hopefullyI can get through this without
tearing up, but my grandma wasstill alive after I got my liver
and um, this one's emotionalbecause I I called my grandma,
you know, and she at that timeshe was pretty unresponsive to
anything, but they put the phoneby her and I said, grandma, I
(19:45):
got my liver, and she justscreamed out my name, chad, and
that was the last I heard of it.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
That was beautiful.
It's awesome.
I'm glad to get to have thatexperience.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yeah, it was surreal and actually the recovery was
was, you know, and that's wherethe dark tourism thing really
first started like wow, there'ssomething to this, because years
earlier I had gone toparliament in in uh, in the uk,
in london, and I, I remember,you know, I've always been a
interested in world war iihistory and I remember win
(20:19):
Churchill's you know, we'llfight on the beaches speech and
he was, you know, said to havesaid, you know, when you're
going through hell, keep going.
And that was a time when, youknow, the UK, england, was, they
were just absolutely on theirknees.
You know, hitler and the Nazishad them backed into a corner
and you know it was almost gameover and people started really
(20:42):
rallying with Churchill.
So I had this phrase in my headwhen you're going through hell,
keep going.
And I would think to that.
And you know it's just weird,like how, why that started just
becoming my mantra when I was inthe hospital.
So I was feeling really good,you know, in terms of my
physical health, but my, youknow, the surgery I was still,
(21:03):
you know, I still really had torecover from the surgery, part
of it.
It hurt to to walk, it hurt toget out of bed.
It hurt, you know, but I wouldhave that phrase in my head when
you're going through hell, keepgoing.
And I'd think, think back tothe people in England and and I
just pop out of bed and like Igot to do it, you know, and and
I did it.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Yeah, it's awesome.
I love it.
I love hearing these stories.
Do you know anything about yourdonor at all?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
I don't know.
What I do know is that he wasabout 50 years old and he died
unexpectedly and and he was alittle overweight.
That's, that's really all Iknow and know.
And it didn't have to get flownin, it got driven in.
Okay, somewhere a little closerI wrote a letter to the family
and I haven't heard back, andthat's okay.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Okay, yeah, yeah, well, good, good for you.
The question too I want to askyou said you had some autoimmune
things going on, stuff likethat.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Is that kind of what led to this?
Was it drinking?
I mean, what kind of led to theliver giving out on you?
I mean it probably they call itmultifactorial, where there's
multiple things.
It goes probably back to I wasin Mexico as an Acapulco and I
ended up picking up hepatitis Aand I started getting sick with
hepatitis A and then I just fromthat point on, I started having
just auto.
I don't know what theconnection is, but I started
having autoimmune issue afterautoimmune issue.
It started with a rash thatwouldn't go away.
It was called stasis dermatitisand and then that went away and
(22:26):
then I ended up getting thevasculitis and then the colitis
and you know, and it it justkept snowballing.
You know I definitely liked myMiller Lite, you know, in
Colorado, you know, by theRockies, I mean, I used to say
that you know there's nothingbetter than getting, you know,
coors Lite right out of thenipple there in Golden Colorado.
You know, and I live in a heavydrinking area and I just, you
(22:49):
know, I definitely partake andafter my divorce I did hit it a
lot harder than you know for afew months.
It wasn't long term butcertainly played a piece.
It was, you know, and I had acrappy diet and you know
Multiple things.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Like you said Multiple things multifactorial.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yeah, cryptogenic is another word that they use, so
it's not any one thing.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
All right, you started talking about dark
tourism Before we.
First of all, when you hear theword dark tourism, if someone's
just popping in and listeningright now and they hear dark
tourism, what does that meanexactly?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
when you say dark tourism, so dark tourism is
simply going to places wheredeath, tragedy, trauma,
suffering, those types of thingshave occurred.
So it's a variety of placesno-transcript and the eastern
(24:02):
state penitentiary, and inlondon they have the clink
prison, south africa I haven'tbeen to this one, but south
africa they have, uh, nelson, Ican't think of it.
Yeah where nelson mandela was at, and so there, and there's a
place in Australia and sothere's, you know, former
prisons around the world.
A lot of people consider thosedark tourism Places of crime and
punishment, like theWhitechapel District in London
(24:24):
where Jack the Ripper washanging out.
So a lot of gangster tours oreven ghost tours, those types of
things around you know a lot ofthem are in a lot of big cities
.
Have those.
Now what elseemeteries,graveyards, I think at first
occurred was, you know, manyyears ago I actually went on one
of my very first vacations,when you know, when my ex-wife
was my girlfriend, you knowseveral years, but we were in
(24:47):
sloppy joe's bar in key westwhere ernest hemingway that was
ernest hemingway's favorite bar,sloppy joe's, and we had this
guy you know he's wearingflip-flops and a straw hat and
you know his Hawaiian shirt andhe comes over and talking, all
you know kind of hippie-ish tous and you know, and he's like
you guys got to go check out thegraveyard.
They have the goofiest epitaphsthere and you know like I
(25:21):
remember going there and it saiddevoted fan of Julio glace.
He is on one of them andanother one has a guy you know
flexing his muscles on the, youknow, with shirtless on his
tombstone and you know justweird kind of quirky things, and
and then there's chickensbouncing around in there and you
know they have chickens allover key west and you know, and
and actually it was so such anexperience that me and my wife,
we we had gone to all.
You know, every time we'd gosomewhere we'd go a graveyard.
You know, paris is one of thebest places to go if you're
going to go tour graveyards.
They have the Pierre Lachaise,where you know Frédéric Chopin,
(25:43):
the concert pianist, but myfavorite there is Jim Morrison.
He's in there.
He wanted to get buried in.
Well, I guess he didn't want to.
They wanted to bury him inParis because they didn't want a
big to-do coming back to theUnited States and they're just
like, oh, let's just do itquietly, but for a dark tour,
it's the Paris catacombs.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah, I've never been to Paris, but if I go to Paris
I want to go to the catacombs.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I had a coworker of mine who went there and she
showed me some pictures and Iwas like, wow, yeah, and you
would think it's.
You know, I think I went theremore for the, you know, kind of
the taboo, the.
You know this, you know this,this has got to be creepy, you
know, and you go in there andit's not creepy, it's, it's
actually I mean it.
Maybe it was creepy to somepeople, but but you have bones
(26:36):
stacked, you know, six feet highby you know six feet.
I mean you're going throughthese tunnels around, you know,
believe, you know 100 feet belowplayers or whatever it is.
But you go through there andyou're thinking, like you know
each of these people.
I mean they had a name, theyhad a family, they had a job,
they had you know, and and youcome out the other side and you
think, like you really respectthe fragility of life and it
makes you want to live, you know, live with more intention and
(26:57):
love deeper and it just remindsyou it's like I'm gonna be a
pile of bones in not that manyyears and it's like I'm not
gonna waste a second with mylife.
And I've been there a coupletimes awesome.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
And is that?
What is that what dark tourismdoes for you?
Because you kind of alluded toit a little bit.
You've had your struggles, youwere down in the dumps for a
long time and then you thinkdark.
Some people in their mindsmight be thinking dark tourism.
That sounds kind of morbid,kind of like he's going to these
places where people died or youknow.
I think of like the twin towersin new york city.
You know the world that's a.
I consider that like a darktourism spot.
(27:31):
You know where that happened.
What is it that draws you todark tourism so much?
Speaker 2 (27:36):
there's many reasons.
I think that is probably thebiggest one.
If you, if you look at, there'sa concept called memento mori
and it's goes back to theancient romans and they used to
have parades for generals.
They would have a personwalking behind them when the,
when the general got a littletoo cocky and they, they would
whisper in their ear mementomori, which which means remember
, you have to die.
(27:57):
It's like you know, try toremind them.
Like you know, don't get toococky, you're going to die
someday.
But that kind of got taken bythe Christians years later,
especially during the year, uh,the Elizabethan era, 1800s,
london area, uh, europe.
So you see a lot of skulls andcross bones and things like that
on on graves like that, andactually there's people that
(28:18):
wore rings to commemorate theirloved ones' deaths, and death
was seen more as kind of theflip side of mental mori is
remember to live, remember tolive with intention.
And I think whenever you go tothese places, that's something
that really sticks out.
For example, when you go toAuschwitz, they have one of the
(28:41):
crematoriums still standing.
You go in in the crematorium orthe gas.
It's a gas chamber crematorium,it's a combined and you go in
there and you're standing inthis, you know it looks like a
regular basement, is just big,but you start, you know,
picturing.
You know, you, you, you go inwith complete reverence for the
things that have happened inthese places.
(29:02):
So I don't go in withsensationalistic motives, I go
in to pay respects, you know, tolearn about history, but really
to pay respects and I reallytry to muster as much empathy as
I can.
So I try to really stand intheir shoes as much as I I I can
.
For you know as much as you can.
You know and you can startpicturing.
You know people falling and,and you know, and and dying.
(29:25):
And it's not something I enjoy,it's something I really don't
enjoy, but it really hits you ina way that when you walk out
the other side of thatcrematorium, you know, you go
down the steps into it and yougo out the other side, past the,
the, the, the, the ovens thatyou know.
You go out the other side andit's like you're not the same
(29:47):
person anymore.
You're not a worse person,you're a better person.
You're, you're, you're, you're.
You know, we've all heard aboutthe Holocaust, but once you
experience the Holocaust in away like that, where you are
standing on this hallowed ground, you vow to help people that
are suffering, and it's made mea better counselor, it's made me
a better human.
It's.
I haven't like I don't thinkI've taken more than a few
seconds for granted since thattime.
(30:08):
And actually when I went, youknow it wasn't long after that,
it was only a couple of monthsafter that.
You know, because I went fromthere to Oslo and then I ended
up a couple of months laterhaving my transplant.
I was able to to go throughthat whole time and when I was
talking about laying uh in mybed, in in, you know, the first
time in, uh, when I was waitingto see if I was going to get
(30:29):
that liver, that, that first dryrun, I guess, you know, I, I
actually my mind would driftback to to Normandy, you know,
and it was kind of weird becauseit's like I never planned that,
I mean.
But you know, when you gothrough these experiences, you
know, for example, when you goto a museum, you, you learn
facts, you learn, you knowthings like that.
But if you go in, and what,actually, when I wrote this book
(30:53):
, I, I couldn't remember thefacts.
The facts go away, but what youremember is the feelings.
So I could remember the way Ifelt every time I went to one of
these places.
I couldn't remember what thetour guide said in any of these
places, but I could remember theway I felt.
I started having some of thesame feelings that maybe some of
the people did on D-Day, whereit's like am I going to live?
(31:14):
You know, their mission was toget across that beach.
My mission was to to survive,you know, and fight on.
Their mission was to fight on,you know.
It gave me strength to getthrough that.
I saw a picture of when I wasstarting to get wheeled down,
you know and I'm coming from aperson who had severe anxiety.
I mean, it was severe.
(31:34):
I had almost no anxiety goingthrough all of this.
I was actually during during Ididn't even talk about this I
was giving what they call aliquid biopsy.
During my whole liver disease Itested positive for liver cancer
and then I had a MRI and, sureenough, they found a nodule and
they're like well, with thosetwo things combined, we almost
can guarantee it's liver cancer.
Well, liver cancer has a 5%survival rate, but you know,
(31:58):
lucky they caught it early andwe're, and I had to.
Every three months I had to goget an MRI.
You know, the nodule didn't goaway but it hadn't grown and
it's like, okay, oof.
You know, nine months later thenodule just went away.
I don't know what happened.
So it wasn't liver cancer, youknow.
They were just waiting, like ifit grows then maybe we can get
a transplant, and if it doesn'tgrow we really can't do anything
about it.
They're just going to wait forit to grow.
(32:19):
And it just went away insteadof growing.
Went through that with almost noanxiety and then I saw a
picture of me getting wheeleddown to the operating room and I
didn't remember having anyanxiety.
I, I, it was kind of struck meas odd because, like for
somebody who had such anxietyall their life, especially for
(32:39):
that year or so when I was goingthrough that dark time I was
having, you know, even a fewyears I had it.
I had almost no anxiety.
The only time I had anxietygoing through that, they, they,
they tied down my arms.
You know that, or they startand they started to.
I said, okay, I'll take the pillnow, because I was feeling I
was.
I'm like I want to rememberthis.
This is kind of cool in a way.
(33:00):
I mean, in a way you know itwas, it was an adventure.
You talk about adventure.
You're not going to get abetter adventure than being on a
transplant list and waiting fora transplant.
And if you can do that with amindset focused on tomorrow and
what's ahead and just lovingevery second, and and I gave
(33:20):
myself permission to like, I'mnot going to fear dying, I like
and being in all these placeswhere so many people have died,
being in all these graveyards,and you know which is another
big piece of dark tourism is isgoing to these graveyards.
You know, like, like thecatacombs, seeing death in that,
in that number, and you know itjust kind of you don't feel so
alone, you feel, you feel likeyou're, you're, you're comforted
(33:43):
by your experiences.
So when I say you know thesedark tour, you know when, when
you're talking about you know itsounds morbid and it's.
You know it is morbid, but youknow it's morbid.
In a way like you're going to aclose relative's funeral.
It's like you don't want to go.
You don't, you know, but youneed to go.
It's something you have to doand if you didn't go you'd feel
(34:03):
guilty, and you know, and you dogo and you, you know, you're
glad that you did and you getsomething out of it.
You honor them and you alsohave the memories that are
created.
You know that it just affectsyou more on an emotional level
and that's what dark tourismreally does, and and you have
all kinds of reflections whenyou're going into these places.
(34:25):
It's not just.
You know, when I went toHiroshima, I went in with a
bunch of school kids that thatwere, you know, probably like in
the 10 year old age group.
There's a big mural when you goin there and it shows Hiroshima
and how beautiful it was, andat the very end of it they have
these school kids in this muraland their life size school kids.
(34:46):
It's black and white.
But then I have these schoolkids that I went through and
their black and white uniforms.
Looking at these black andwhite pictures, and it's just,
it was almost like a mirrorimage and it just.
And then on the, on the wallright next to it, was a clock
stuck at the you know a veryexact second the.
You know the the time that thebomb fell.
And then you go into the nextroom and that same mural is
(35:08):
there and there isn't a thingstanding, it's everything is
just blowing up and up.
And then you're standing, you'regoing through the museum with
these kids and I I was sickgoing through that.
It reminded me of auschwitz.
I was absolutely sick goingthrough auschwitz.
I was absolutely sick goingthrough the hiroshima museum and
I felt so guilty.
Being an american, you know,it's like I understand that
there were major decisions thathad to be made and you know, I'm
(35:31):
not saying we were right orwrong, but also it but think
it's like we nuked a civiliancity.
You know, yeah, I'm glad Ididn't have to make that
decision, I'm glad you know.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
No kidding.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
And and because you do that, you feel like you're
honoring the memory of thepeople that died.
And again you, you walk throughthese places and you don't come
out the same person.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
You come out a better version of yourself, a person
that's just more of ahumanitarian, a person that just
loves deeper is it safe to saythat for you, this has meant so
much to you, partly because ofthat anxiety, I mean, it seems
like it's helped your anxiety.
You're a therapist, you knowbetter than me.
Has it done something for youfrom that respect, medically, do
(36:15):
you think?
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Without a doubt.
Without a doubt, that's a big.
That's what my book is about.
It's I talk about my experience, just basically the things I
just said, and I go into a lotmore detail, especially about
how, the different reflectionsyou have at these various places
.
It's a healing experience andit doesn't heal in the same
respect that a medication does,but it heals you much more on an
(36:40):
existential level.
It's very similar as somebodygoing on a religious pilgrimage
similar as somebody going on areligious pilgrimage.
There's actually a really goodbook that researchers wrote and
actually the guy who wrote theforeword for that book actually
wrote the foreword for my book,which is really cool.
I'm actually going to getsidetracked here.
When I was in Oslo, I read aNational Geographic article and
it was interviewing a guy namedPhilip Stone and he's a
(37:04):
researcher.
They said he was the world'sforemost academic in dark
tourism.
Like, well, dark tourism,that's an academic, it's
actually an academic discipline,which I didn't know.
You know it sounded like justkind of a neat label, but I
found out that day that it'sactually an academic discipline.
In that article it talked about, you know, what are the
different motivations for darktourism.
(37:25):
Yeah, you have some people thatare into it for more like blood
and guts and the sensationalismand and you know, and and then
there's also people like me thatyou know really get something
out of it on a deep, deep,emotional level.
So I put out a concise versionof the book.
I just did a self-publishedconcise edition of my book and
threw it out there just kind ofto see how it would do.
And it did really well.
(37:45):
It was, you know, it was numberone in multiple categories in
Amazon and stuff.
And then this Philip Stone,this Dr Philip Stone that was in
the article he contacted me andwe had developed a relationship
and I had asked him if hewanted to write the foreword to
my book and he did and it's beenjust awesome and mind-blowing.
(38:10):
But anyway, kind of hopping backto what I was saying is dark
tourism and religiouspilgrimages.
There's a huge overlap betweenthe two.
So when people go to Jerusalemactually I write about Jerusalem
, I have a half a chapter aboutJerusalem and my you know,
because Jerusalem has a lot ofdark things that have happened
there, but it also it felt a lotlike a dark tourism spot to me
and I went there when I wasgoing through my health crisis.
I'm like you know, I actually Igot got a tattoo from Jerusalem
, which is which is it's theJerusalem cross and it's
(38:33):
actually the oldest tattoo shopin the world.
It's like 18th generationtattoo artists in the family are
you know?
So this kid gave me this tattooand you know, 18th generation
and the oldest tattoo shop inthe world?
It's in Jerusalem.
But anyway, I went there when Iwas going through my whole
religious thing.
It's like I had to take a crashcourse on religion in case I
didn't make it.
I guess I really don't know why.
And then, right from there, Iwent to the pyramids of Egypt,
(38:56):
which is another.
In the same chapter I writeabout the Egypt and the Valley
of the Kings and King Tut andcoming face to face with his
mummy in the in his tomb, andbig overlap and what you get
from religious pilgrimages anddark tourism I love it.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
This is, this is fascinating to me and as we're
talking in my mind, I'm likethinking I've been to some dark
tourism place that I just neverreally thought of that.
But yeah, I mean, I think ofoklahoma city, I've been to the
bombing site, I mean 100, that'sa, that's a.
One place that strikes me thatI went to that probably isn't
considered dark tourism, but itfelt like it was to me.
(39:33):
Was I went to Mount Vernon andI saw Washington's tomb and also
in the room I was, in, the roomthat he died, in, that he had
this coughing attack and wherehe died.
Oh really, it was just like yousaid I came away from there,
kind of different than when Iwhen I went there.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
I would without a doubt call Mount Vernon a dark
tourism spot.
Slavery.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Slavery A hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Yep Plantations.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
You know there's one plantation like every one of
your listeners I need to go atleast your American listeners
need to go to the WhitneyPlantation.
It's about 45 minutes out ofNew Orleans and the Whitney
Plantation most people think oflike plantations, it's like oh,
Southern Bells and you know allthat kind of stuff, and this is
the exact opposite.
(40:20):
This is plantations.
From the slavery point of view,it's beautiful, but you know
the actual the, the main houseis just walk through and they do
that on purpose, I'm sure of it, where it's just a walk through
space and they have, you know,the, the slavery huts, and the j
, the jails and the.
You know they have a bunch ofheads on a pike from a slave
(40:41):
revolt that you know.
Statues, of course it has.
Yeah, it's just some place thatif you go there and fly your
Confederate flag, you gotsomething mentally seriously
wrong with you.
I mean, it's something thatwill change your life and it's,
you know it's similar to PearlHarbor or going to the 9-11
Museum.
Whitney Plantation, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Whitney Plantation.
I got to remember that one thenAdd that to my list.
Yeah, wow, absolutely, whitneyplantation.
I got to remember that one thenadd that to my list.
Wow, fantastic.
So all these places you've been, and you've been to a lot of
them.
We talked about the catacombsand Auschwitz and Hiroshima and
places like that.
Is there any one in particularthat kind of shook you the most,
that you kind of just really,you know, got to you?
Speaker 2 (41:23):
Oh man, you know the, when I walked through the gas
chamber gas chamber at Auschwitz, I mean I knew coming out on
the other side and that thingswere different.
You know, going there, we tooka bus there from Krakow and it
was, I don't know, maybe like anhour ride, I can't remember
exactly, but you know kind oflike, oh, this is going to.
(41:46):
You know kind of a littlenervous going there, but you
know okay.
And then you get there and likeoh my God, the reflections you
have seeing the cruelty thathumans did to humans.
And a big piece of the reason Iwent there is there's a book
called Man's Search for Meaningby a psychiatrist named Viktor
Frankl, and he was apsychiatrist.
(42:08):
Well, he was a doctor atAuschwitz.
He was a Jew and they kept himalive because he was a doctor
and he talked about hisexperiences there and how they
could predict who was going tolive and die, not by who went to
the gas chamber, but by who whobasically had a will to live,
(42:28):
and that really struck me and,and that is something that I
think, most dark tourism spots.
You know that they, that theydo is that they help you find
your own meaning and purpose inyour own life.
You just start having thesereflections when you see that
you know such horror it causesyou to have those reflections
(42:52):
and to just you know, like Isaid, live with more intention
and you, just you know it was.
It became more crystal clear tome kind of what my purpose was,
and it's to love my family,friends and to help people.
You know those are my.
That's what makes me tick,that's why I wrote the book.
I mean it's that and because Ihad a ton of energy after a
transplant that I haven't had inmany, many years.
(43:13):
What have I been?
Speaker 1 (43:14):
missing all these years.
A liver, that's what it was.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
A liver, exactly Wow.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
This is.
This is amazing and I'm I'mkind of getting just I don't
know if I'm getting emotional, Idon't know.
It's just just hearing you talkabout the things is really it's
affected me.
Tell me about the book a littlebit.
Where can people get it, what'sthe name?
And then just a little bitabout your book so I can let
people know about it.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
So it's Beyond the Darkness, it's transformative
journeys through dark tourism.
It's the publisher is White FoxPublishing.
They're out of London, littlesmall publishing, but they do.
They do a lot of the, the big.
Actually, the person you cansee my, my book cover behind me,
the person who did that's asenior designer at penguin books
(43:54):
, I mean.
So it's like you, it's.
It's been done by like theabsolute top-notch professionals
in publishing.
So it's a really well writtenbook and it has awesome.
It's been gotten through someeditorial critique or, uh, not
editorial critiques reviews.
Yes, thank you, and it's youknow san francisco, uh, book
(44:14):
review called it.
You know rare and unforgettableand and it's had just you know
several.
You can, you can read about it.
You go to drchadscottcom andyou can see all the different
reviews and it's.
I literally could not havewritten better reviews for
myself, so that that's how goodthe reviews are and I'm not
actually not kidding about that.
But you can get it on on Amazon, any, any of the normal
(44:34):
bookstores online and and it andkind of hit or miss on if
they're, if they're going to bein a bookstore near you, wow.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah, I'm excited to get thebook.
I'm definitely going to get thebook because I'm excited and
intrigued about it.
Plus, I've loved ourconversation here.
So if there's someone out there, you know, maybe and you're a
therapist, so you have someonewho's maybe struggling a little
bit and they're kind of dealingwith some depression Maybe
they're going through a divorceor relationship issue or some
health issues why would you saythat, you know, going on a dark
(45:04):
tourism trip or whatever?
Why would, what would be thebenefit to them to do that?
What would you say to them?
Speaker 2 (45:09):
I would say just go and you start seeing pieces of
yourself in almost all of them.
For example, I was at the JesseJames house where he was shot
and it's like, okay, I wentthere for the history of it.
I was.
I actually went there to go toa psychiatric museum which is
probably one of my favoritemuseums the Glore Psychiatric
Museum in St Joseph, missouri.
(45:29):
It talks about the history ofbeing a therapist.
That was just right up my alley.
So if anybody has an interestin psychiatric stuff, that's the
place to go.
But also in that same town,jesse James is the house that he
was shot in and it has thepicture frame that he was
adjusting when he was shot byRobert Ford.
I started having reflectionsthat night about betrayal and I
(45:51):
talk about this in my book and Idon't want to get into too many
details.
But I've had some pretty bigbetrayals in my life by people
close to me and by a really goodfriend that I talk about.
I actually talk about the job Ihad where I felt really
betrayed by my employer becauseof this nepotism and they gave a
CEO to somebody who wassomebody's wife.
You know, you know, you havejust these reflections and you
(46:12):
don't.
I guess you don't know whatyou're going to get when you go
to these places.
If you go to enough of them, oreven if you go to one of them,
you know you're going to havesomething that benefits you on
an emotional level.
You know, and you don't have totravel far to go.
I mean, and you don't have totravel far to go.
I mean, almost every town has agraveyard.
Go walk through your graveyard.
You're going to findinteresting things in your
graveyard, like even littlehaunted tours.
(46:32):
I mean, actually, next week I'mgoing to be in Boston for a
trauma conference and I'm takinga day and I'm going to go stay
at the Lizzie Borden house,which is known for gruesome axe
murder and it's supposed to beone of the most haunted houses
in the world and I'm I'm stayingalone by in lizzie borden's
bedroom.
You know, okay, I'm going alittle bit for the
sensationalism of it.
I admit, on that one, some ofthe ghost tourism and you know,
(46:55):
yeah, it falls more into that.
You know which, you know, andthere's a spectrum of dark
tourism.
There's very serious stuff likeauschwitz and hiroshima, and
you know, in the catacombs I'dstick more on that side and you
know in graveyards and but youknow.
But then there's other onesthat are a little more, you know
, I would almost call them fun,like the London dungeon, which
(47:15):
is you walk through thesedifferent rooms and they have
actors acting different, andI've been to a few of them.
There's one in Berlin and Ithink there's some other ones
too, but those are the two I'vebeen to.
There's some other ones too,but those are the two I've been
to and they there's their actors, and they do this like they
call it gallows humor, where youknow where they talk about you
know, getting your head choppedoff and ha ha ha, you know.
But it's also telling youhistory and you're thinking like
(47:35):
this really did kind of happen.
I mean, this did happen topeople and but it's so far
removed and it's not on thelocation, so it's not.
You're not really on hallowedground and you know it's kind of
fun, but you're also learningand it also hits you a little
bit on an emotional level.
So there's that kind of stufftoo.
But when you're really on the,in the, on the sacred side of
things, where you're walking onthat hallowed ground, I mean it
changes you in the fabric you'remade out of, and in a good way.
(47:58):
You're like I said, you're morecaring, loving more, you know,
devoted person to your, to thethings that keep you motivated
in life it's interesting youtalk about boston.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
Boston came to my mind too because I've been to
boston a few times and thecemeteries in boston they're all
over the place and that that'sone of the biggest memories I
have of my time in boston wasseeing those different
cemeteries, with some, you know,famous revolutionary folks in
it and yeah, yeah, incredible,see samuel adams and yeah, yeah
yeah, absolutely wow and that'sthat's.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
That's actually chapter two of my book.
I talk about the boston and thehow you know kind of america's
how, actually how america'sbuilt on both.
You know like, yeah, we havesome, you know we fought it for
independence and rah, rah, rah,you know fireworks, but then we
also slaughtered a bunch ofIndians and we had the Battle of
Wounded Knee and places likethat, and I talk about that.
(48:55):
It's like you know, it's notall about fireworks.
We did some really bad thingstoo, just like Hiroshima.
Some things.
The rise to America in partshould be mourned, some of the
things we did.
And I'm not saying that becausewe should be ashamed of being
Americans.
We should love being Americans.
But we have to realize that youknow we hurt people too and
that is part of our history.
(49:16):
And acknowledging that also,and slavery and you know, and
all these things, acknowledgingthat stuff brings together a
shared unity that we all have.
That it's like you know, let'sget through this together.
Let's let's not have outcastsanymore.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
This has been fascinating.
I've man, I've loved this.
My final question to you it's aquestion I like to ask
everybody is what does adventuremean to you?
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Gosh, I think any time you go out of your comfort
zone it's an adventure, whetherwhether it for my clients.
Sometimes going to the grocerystore is an adventure because
you know that they, they stay intheir house, they don't leave
they're they're, they'redepressed or they have
agoraphobia where they have,they have panic and anxiety just
leaving their house.
Going to the mailbox for somepeople is an adventure, for me,
(50:00):
yeah, okay, going by myselfacross the world, that's an
adventure.
But you know, just step outsideyour comfort zone If it's just
a little bit or a lot.
My biggest fear in life, otherthan family dying, is, as a
pilot is, skydiving.
You know, it's like why wouldanybody want to jump out of an
airplane?
And I was riding my bike downin Texas a couple of weeks ago
(50:22):
and I saw skydiving on on anairport, the side of an airport
building, and I'm like, oh myGod, I got to do it and it was a
challenge to myself and I didit and I did it with almost no
fear.
And again, it's like every timeI've done something, whether
it's adventure tourism or darktourism, it's coming out of your
comfort zone and that's whatmakes you a better human being.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
So I love your podcast and it's adventure focus
, because adventure is importantand, like you said, almost
pretty much every episode comingout of your comfort zone is
mentioned.
You know, there you go.
We talked about it earlier.
You talked about it again rightnow.
Dr Chad Scott, thank you somuch for coming on.
Journey with Jake.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
Yeah, Jake, Thanks for having me.
It's been a lot of fun andeverybody Beyond the Darkness.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
Wow.
Thank you, Dr Chad Scott, forjoining me on Journey with Jake
and sharing your powerful story.
Hearing how dark tourism helpedyou process your struggles and
spark something deep within youwas truly inspiring.
I'm so grateful we had thechance to have that conversation
.
Be sure to check out Chad'sbook Beyond the Darkness
Transformative Journeys ThroughDark Tourism.
You can find it on Amazon orvisit his website,
(51:31):
drchadscottcom to learn more.
And don't forget to follow himon Instagram at drchadscott.
These episodes give me so muchenergy and make me appreciate
life in a deeper way.
I hope you're feeling that too.
If this episode resonated withyou, would you do me a quick
favor?
Share Journey with Jake with afriend, just one person you
(51:52):
think would enjoy or be inspiredby it.
That small act helps the showgrow and keeps the journey going
, and, as always, I'd love tohear from you.
Email me anytime, jake, atjourneywithjakenet, or send me a
message on Instagram atjourneywithjakepodcast.
Thanks so much for tuning in.
(52:13):
It truly means the world to me.
We've got another great episodecoming.
Next week I'll be chatting withLarry Campbell, who took an
adventure down the mightyMissouri River and wrote a
fascinating memoir about theexperience.
It's a fun and thoughtprovoking conversation I can't
wait to share.
Until then, just remember, it'snot always about the
destination, it is about thejourney.
Take care everybody.
As I was browsing online, I came across a
definition of dark tourism thatreally stood out to me A unique
form of travel that exploresplaces associated with
historical catastrophes, it wenton to say.
For many travel enthusiasts,it's a journey that goes beyond
typical sightseeing, offering apowerful connection to the past.
For my guest today, chad Scott,that couldn't be more true.
(00:23):
Chad has faced his share ofpersonal challenges navigating a
difficult divorce and dealingwith health issues and he's
found unexpected insight inhealing through exploring these
heavy, often hauntingdestinations.
As Chad puts it, when you'regoing through hell, keep going.
Get ready for a powerful rideinto the world of dark tourism
(00:43):
with Chad Scott.
Welcome to Journey with Jake.
Get ready for a powerful rideinto the world of dark tourism
with Chad Scott.
As they share experiences andstories from the different
adventures they have been on,not only will you be entertained
(01:11):
, but you will also hear thefailures and trials each guest
faces and what they have done orare doing to overcome the
hardships that come their way.
My goal is to take each of uson a journey through the
experiences of my guests, withthe hope that you'll be
entertained and inspired toovercome your day-to-day
challenges.
After all, it's not all aboutthe destination, as it is about
the journey.
Hello, my friends, and welcometo Journey with Jake.
(01:45):
I'm your host, jake Bushman,and I'm so glad you're here.
I'm especially excited abouttoday's episode with Dr Chad.
Scott Chad is a therapist who'sfaced his own share of personal
struggles and, as you'll hear,dark tourism has played a
surprising and powerful role inhis healing journey.
Now, if you're not familiarwith dark tourism, you're not
alone.
I wasn't either until recently,but after talking with Chad, I
(02:07):
can honestly say I'm intriguedand even a little hooked.
Before we dive into ourconversation, just a quick
reminder make sure to subscribeto the show wherever you listen
to podcasts, so you don't missany upcoming episodes of Journey
with Jake.
If you'd like to see clips frompast, current or even future
shows, follow me on Instagram atjourneywithjakepodcast.
That's also where I share a bitmore of my personal life and
(02:28):
adventures, so it's a great wayto connect.
And if you prefer watching fullepisodes, head over to YouTube
and search for Journey with Jakepodcast.
While you're there, do me afavor hit that subscribe button
on the channel.
Lastly, a big shout out toPodmatch, where I've met so many
amazing guests, including Chad.
I'm also part of the PodmatchPodcast Network.
(02:48):
You can check it out atpodmatchcom forward slash
network.
This conversation with ChadScott was eye-opening, emotional
and incredibly inspiring.
If you enjoyed this episode, Ialso recommend checking out
episode 141 with Bjorn Lestrudanother amazing journey worth
hearing.
All right, let's jump into it.
(03:09):
Here's my conversation withChad Scott.
I'm excited.
Today I have someone that Ifound we talk a lot about dark
tourism.
That's what we're going to talkabout today.
I don't know a whole lot aboutthat, so I'm counting on you to
kind of explain what that is toeverybody.
Before we dive into ourconversation, chad Scott, tell
us a little bit about who youare, where you're from that sort
of thing.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I'm a therapist.
I've been in the mental healthfield for gosh 25 years now.
Majority of it I've been atherapist.
I taught at a university on theside for about 18 years
teaching psychology.
I'm located up in northernMinnesota, about an hour north
of Duluth and about a half hourhour south of the Canadian
border.
(03:48):
I've been into tourism and forthe entirety of my life and went
through some pretty serioushealth issues about well, ended
up having a transplant about ayear ago, a little over a year
ago, had about 10 years ofautoimmune issues and that's
kind of what it culminated in.
And and I found a lot of soulsearching or did a lot of soul
(04:09):
searching and ended up kind offinding finding myself in in a
lot of dark tourism spots whereI felt like it really mirrored
some of my struggles and I sawlittle pieces of myself in the
of the various places I had hadgone and I wrote a book about it
.
So I wrote it's a memoir butit's also talks about dark
(04:30):
tourism spots across the worldthat I've been to, how they can
really impact you in yourhealing journey and how it can
help you build strength andresilience and things like that.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
That's why I love doing Journey with Jake.
I've talked to a lot of peoplewho are adventurous.
They do some adventurous thingsand it always seems to come
back to.
It's something that helps themin some way or another.
It does something for them.
For me, it's talking to thesefolks, talking to people like
you.
It does something for me, itbuilds me up, so I'm excited to
hear about that.
You talked about having somehealth issues.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Before we jump into some of that family, do you have
any kids or anything like that?
Yeah, I have a 25 year old.
He's a graduate of theuniversity of minnesota just
this last year he was electedmayor of our town so and he's
been my companion on on many, sowe have a lot of the same
interests and and he's been mycompanion on many of these dark
tourism travels and other funtravels yeah, 25 year old mayor,
huh yeah, yeah, one, yeah, oneof the youngest in Minnesota
(05:26):
history.
So that's pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
That is cool, that's awesome.
Well, good, glad to hear that.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
He amazes me mostly in good ways, but some in not so
good ways, but he amazes mejust about every day.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Yeah, that's pretty wild.
Wow, that's exciting.
Congratulations, that'sfantastic.
So I know you said before wegot going here and started
recording, you mentioned you'vedone a lot of like adventure
type travel and things like that.
But I know your story, yourstory is.
You kind of some thingshappened, you had some health
issues.
Do you mind kind of justtelling your story that we would
kind of know kind of where thisall came about?
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, absolutely Gosh .
So, like I said, I've been atraveler my whole life.
(06:26):
As a kid we traveled around thecountry visiting relatives and
hitting historical spots alongthe way, and I think that's
started where it might havestarted getting into my blood a
little bit.
I became a pilot in college.
I got my private pilot'slicense and that's been
something that's always been inmy blood also.
So I just love the travel,wanted to be an airline pilot,
but gosh settled for being atherapist.
Yeah, ended up getting marriedand we were married for well, we
were together for almost 11years, 12 years, something like
that Great marriage.
And then we had a rough patchat that.
Last year I started getting adisease called vasculitis, where
it's inflammation of your bloodvessels, and it just wrecked
(06:46):
havoc on my life.
I started getting reallyanxious on top of it, probably
always had a little bit of anunderlying anxiety problem my
whole life.
But then it really came outduring that time and as a
therapist, I'm just a personjust like anybody else and I
really, really struggled withthat and it really, you know, my
wife was going through her owndifficulties with some things
and we ended up having, you know, getting divorced because of
(07:08):
various issues related to thosethings and I had to do some soul
searching.
I was completely lost.
I was heartbroken, drinking waytoo much beer and what I started
doing is going on theseadventure tourism types of trips
.
You know, for example, I wentto Costa Rica.
I left a job that I got passedover for a CEO job and it was a
place that I'd put in gosh, Ithink, 18 years.
(07:30):
I worked at a place and reallypaid my dues and and nepotism is
what ended up happening.
So I left there and I had nojob, had no idea what to do, and
I went, went to Costa Rica andjust did some, you know,
adventure types of tourism, wenton hikes and zip lines and
scuba diving for the first timeand you know, doing all these
things outside of my comfortzone.
(07:51):
And, and I'm sure you know, youdo a.
You do a podcast on adventureand I'm willing to bet coming
out of your comfort zone comesup probably at least every
couple episodes 100%.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
I think I hear that almost every episode.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
And there is absolutely no growth that comes
out of a comfort zone.
Growth comes out of pushingyour comfort zones.
And you know, I tell my clientscomfort zones are for coach
potatoes, it's.
You know, people, I mean that's.
Depression breeds in comfortzones, anxiety breeds in comfort
zones and you need to keeppushing them.
So I got back from Costa Ricaand I really still didn't know
(08:26):
what to do and, kind of a funnystory I got back from Costa Rica
and I dated a girl that Iactually was kind of enjoying
and thought maybe there wassomething there, and she ended
up marrying her ex-boyfriendwhile I was gone.
So, yeah, it was, yeah, it was.
So, yeah, that was anothershocker.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
And do you mind?
Do you mind if I ask yousomething before we jump in,
because I'm listening to thisand I'm thinking okay, you found
out, you have some.
What do you call it?
Vasculitis, is that what it wascalled?
Yeah, you got that.
You feel you see some anxietiesbuilding up.
You go through a divorce soyou're losing your marriage.
Divorce, so you're losing yourmarriage.
(09:07):
You lost your job.
You left your job, didn't havea job because you got passed
over.
It's just you're losing so much.
And then you go to Costa Ricamore to the story actually.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
yeah, I mean so I almost lost my dad during that
time.
It was about a month before mywife, my wife left me, about a
month before my wife left me andmy dad almost died of sepsis
down in Arizona.
So so I ended up actuallygetting a stomach equalized down
there and then gosh not to gettoo graphic, but I was passing
bloody stool for a while andended up getting diagnosed with
(09:36):
ulcerative colitis during thattime.
Yeah, it was just a reallyreally dark, dark, dark time in
my life.
You know, thankfully I had asupport system that, you know,
helped me get through that time,but I was really struggling.
Actually, my very first trip wasactually before the Costa Rica.
I had gone down to Florida andjust, you know, pushing my
comfort zone with various thingsdown there, just, and that was
(09:58):
a big step just doing somethingby myself, you know, without my
wife, and just, you know, and Ithink that's that's a huge thing
, and I and I know that there'sa lot of good books out there on
people traveling by themselvesto kind of find themselves, you
know, kind of the eat, pray,love type thing, you know.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
I wanted to ask you too, because, as you're down, I
mean you're down, you're, you'redown, I mean you're like
struggling with things as atherapist though do you think
that helped that you kind of hadsome of that background, or
what's your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
me.
So that was nice.
But I so I knew enough to gointo therapy because I knew I
was really struggling.
But I also pulled out a lot ofmy own coping skills.
I really started meditating forthe first time in my life.
I've always talked to you know,I knew with the research on
meditation it works just as goodor better than medication does
for anxiety and I was dying ofanxiety almost literally.
That really really helped.
I used to have this voice inthe back of my head, not a
literal voice, but just a, youknow, just that, that voice that
(11:06):
talks to you all the time andwhen I was going through the
divorce it was just like thissad poet living in my head that
just would never go away,telling me about this horrible
thing I was going through andhow lonely I was and how you
know how I, you know, lost thelove of my life and it was just
horrible.
Meditation just completelyknocked that voice right out of
my head and I have never had itsince.
(11:27):
I pulled out all the copingskills that I normally teach my
clients and it helped for sure.
Actually, I remember where Ileft off now.
So I got back from Costa Ricaand I still really couldn't
decide what I wanted to do.
So I got in my car and I droveout to Yellowstone and stayed
there for a week and I'mliterally sitting in the office
that I went to.
This was the clinic when I wasa kid and I always thought that,
(11:50):
oh, this would make a goodmental health clinic.
They moved the actual clinic toyou know, upgraded it, and I
own a private practice now inthe clinic I grew up with.
I finally pulled the pin onstarting a private practice and
I was only going to do it for acouple of years until I until I
found my direction.
And six years later, I'm stillhere and I love it.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
So Wow, good for you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
How was that trip toYellowstone?
I have a love for Yellowstone.
I've been to Yellowstone a fewfew times and I love it.
How was that trip for you?
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, you must not be too far there being in in.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Utah.
Yeah, not far at all.
Four hours, five hours,something like that.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
You know, just being amongst the buffalo roaming and
I really wanted to see a grizzlybear.
Never saw one, but I had mybear spray so I was ready.
Yeah, it was.
The beauty of it is just, youknow, you're not.
I'd never been to a place likethat and I'd never been a
mountain person.
I've never really explored themountains.
And then after that I've I'vegone to the Rocky mountains and
(12:46):
I can't wait to get back to themountains.
You know Colorado and you knowa variety of places I've been
now.
Yeah, the Costa Rica mountainswere pretty cool to go hiking
around the the Arenal volcanoand that's great.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
So you started your own practice.
You have your own practice,you're in that office, which is
cool.
It's cool that you're doingthat.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah, this was actually a little operating room
back in the day Now it's mytherapy office.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
But I know you said you had a transplant.
What a year ago, not too longago.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
I did a variety of adventure tourism things and
actually in Colorado I don'tknow if you knew this, but near
Great Sand Dunes National Parkpark gosh, am I saying that
wrong?
They have a alligator sanctuarythere where they take rescue
alligators from around you know,from florida and places where
natural alligators are from.
I think they even have thehappy gilmore alligator there.
So you pay money and you helpout their veterinary staff there
(13:41):
, inspect the alligators, so youwalk out barefoot in the swamps
, grab alligators by the tail,drag them to shore so they can
inspect them and you jump ontheir back.
I mean, it's like literallyyou're like crocodile hunter out
there.
Yeah, it's really gets the,gets the blood pumping, you know
, and I actually did a bunch ofstuff like that.
I started scuba diving and Iwas scuba diving with sharks and
(14:02):
got certified and did that.
And what else did I do?
Took a venomous snake handlingclass and in Florida and you
know, and I used to not even beable to watch it, talking about
comfort zones, I used to noteven be able to watch snakes on
TV.
It would just gross me out.
I'd get so much anxiety justwatching a snake.
And then I got to the pointwhere it's like I was actually
literally handling these snakeswith my hands and these hooks
(14:25):
and, yeah, it was really coolRattlesnakes, so so, yeah, I did
did a lot of stuff like thatand I had some really good years
.
I did a lot of adventure tourismand I and in the same time I've
always had a significant, deeprespect for history.
So I have always would go tohistorical spots.
Whenever I went somewhere, I'vealways kind of had a little
(14:45):
inside of me.
I've always liked kind ofexploring the taboo things that
are just a little, you know,things that push people's
comfort zones.
I remember National Geographicused to have a show called
National Geographic Taboo, wherethey just, you know, have real
strange things on there and Iwould, just, I was just
mesmerized by all that stuff.
You know Indiana Jones is myhero, just anything that's a
little out of, you know, out ofpeople's comfort zones.
(15:06):
So I would go to places aroundthe globe and in the middle of
this I started getting a stomachache and didn't think anything
of it.
I went to the doctor.
They said it was gastritis orsomething like that and take
these pills and it didn't goaway.
So they ultrasoned me and Istill thought maybe, oh maybe
it's just my gallbladder hurting.
And I got a call from thedoctor after this ultrasound and
(15:28):
they said you know, you havereally severe cirrhosis and the
symptoms you're having is endstage cirrhosis.
I on the couch right next to mehere just kind of staring at
the sky as the doctor wastelling me this and, just in
shock, not long after that, Igot real delusional with they
call it hepatic encephalopathy.
(15:48):
It's basically your bloodpoisoning your brain and it
starts swelling.
Your brain Went to the hospitaland you know, thankfully a lot
of people die of that and it wascaught early enough.
My son actually found me in bedjust out of it, completely out
of it, and I woke up in thehospital.
So I spent three days in thehospital and actually I got
treated for that.
And actually at that time Iwent for a transplant evaluation
(16:12):
down at the University ofMinnesota.
They had thought I'd get better.
Um, they thought maybe the thecirrhosis was, it wouldn't get
worse and you know I'd quitdrinking and I'd, and they
thought just figured, okay, well, maybe it'll just, you know
it'll, you'll always have anissue, but you know it might
improve, you know so you won'tneed a transplant ever.
I was doing quite well.
Actually, for a couple of yearsI was flying again and I was
(16:36):
for a couple of years.
I was flying again and I was,you know, living my life, and I
was actually in Oslo, norway,and I had just gotten back from
from Auschwitz and, yeah, it wasjust a an amazing, amazing few
weeks over there in in Europeand was in Auschwitz or not
Auschwitz Oslo.
I actually found my great greatgrandparents grave when I was
there.
That was kind of the mainreason I went to Oslo.
I wanted to see the fjords.
(16:56):
But I was starting to get reallysick when I was in Oslo and I
didn't know if it was my liverand I thought maybe it was, but
I was kind of hoping it wasn't.
But I got back and I took myblood tests and I was just off
the charts with my liver andsent back for a transplant
evaluation.
I was put on the transplantlist about a month later and
about a month after that I hadmy first liver for me and I went
(17:18):
down to the University ofMinnesota very excited.
And then there was a delay andthen I got sent home because the
family had backed out.
Wow, which was a real strangething, you know, backed out last
minute, I guess.
Yeah Well, what ended uphappening is, you know, out last
minute, I guess, yeah well,what ended up happening is, you
(17:39):
know, it took a while.
The liver was in st louis so ithad been flown to me.
The person was actually welland this is a real strange thing
is we were waiting for theperson to die and he was kind of
hanging on, you know, andtalking about the strange
feeling.
It's like am I going to getthis liver?
And you know it's it's anxietyon my part, but it's also it's
like gosh, I I going to get thisliver, and you know it's
anxiety on my part, but it'salso it's like gosh, I'm, you
know I'm waiting for somebody todie.
How like morbid is that.
(18:00):
And you know, and that's wheresome of my dark tourism
experiences came back, you knowalso, and I can explain that a
little bit later so the doctorwanted to do one more test,
since the guy was still alive,and the family said no, and and
the doctor said well, this ismaking me nervous, and the
doctor turned it down.
So I'm thinking, and at thattime my lungs were starting to,
(18:20):
or the sac around my lungs wasstarting to fill up with fluid
and I was getting really hard tobreathe and I was coughing all
the time and I was thinking like, am I going to die?
Because this family backed outand because my doctor turned it
down, you know, because hewanted this one last test and I
got sent home and I and I got acall a couple of weeks later
saying my grandma was going todie that night.
(18:41):
And and what was interestingabout that is, about five
minutes after that I got anotherphone call and it was my liver
and they said we got anotherliver for you.
Get down to Minneapolis.
So we, we rushed down toMinneapolis and actually my
grandma lived for a couple moredays but I mean talk about an
emotional shower, getting readyto go down to the university of
(19:02):
minnesota.
It's like it was almost.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
It was almost too much, yeah yeah, you go from
thinking you're gonna get one afew weeks before to going
through that whole stress ofthat whole moment getting there,
getting prepped, and then nope,and then the whole age your
grandmother's gonna pass away,and yeah, here's another call,
and now you're yeah, that's justa wave.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
I can't even imagine the emotions going on with that,
oh man you know, and hopefullyI can get through this without
tearing up, but my grandma wasstill alive after I got my liver
and um, this one's emotionalbecause I I called my grandma,
you know, and she at that timeshe was pretty unresponsive to
anything, but they put the phoneby her and I said, grandma, I
(19:45):
got my liver, and she justscreamed out my name, chad, and
that was the last I heard of it.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
That was beautiful.
It's awesome.
I'm glad to get to have thatexperience.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yeah, it was surreal and actually the recovery was
was, you know, and that's wherethe dark tourism thing really
first started like wow, there'ssomething to this, because years
earlier I had gone toparliament in in uh, in the uk,
in london, and I, I remember,you know, I've always been a
interested in world war iihistory and I remember win
(20:19):
Churchill's you know, we'llfight on the beaches speech and
he was, you know, said to havesaid, you know, when you're
going through hell, keep going.
And that was a time when, youknow, the UK, england, was, they
were just absolutely on theirknees.
You know, hitler and the Nazishad them backed into a corner
and you know it was almost gameover and people started really
(20:42):
rallying with Churchill.
So I had this phrase in my headwhen you're going through hell,
keep going.
And I would think to that.
And you know it's just weird,like how, why that started just
becoming my mantra when I was inthe hospital.
So I was feeling really good,you know, in terms of my
physical health, but my, youknow, the surgery I was still,
(21:03):
you know, I still really had torecover from the surgery, part
of it.
It hurt to to walk, it hurt toget out of bed.
It hurt, you know, but I wouldhave that phrase in my head when
you're going through hell, keepgoing.
And I'd think, think back tothe people in England and and I
just pop out of bed and like Igot to do it, you know, and and
I did it.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Yeah, it's awesome.
I love it.
I love hearing these stories.
Do you know anything about yourdonor at all?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
I don't know.
What I do know is that he wasabout 50 years old and he died
unexpectedly and and he was alittle overweight.
That's, that's really all Iknow and know.
And it didn't have to get flownin, it got driven in.
Okay, somewhere a little closerI wrote a letter to the family
and I haven't heard back, andthat's okay.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Okay, yeah, yeah, well, good, good for you.
The question too I want to askyou said you had some autoimmune
things going on, stuff likethat.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Is that kind of what led to this?
Was it drinking?
I mean, what kind of led to theliver giving out on you?
I mean it probably they call itmultifactorial, where there's
multiple things.
It goes probably back to I wasin Mexico as an Acapulco and I
ended up picking up hepatitis Aand I started getting sick with
hepatitis A and then I just fromthat point on, I started having
just auto.
I don't know what theconnection is, but I started
having autoimmune issue afterautoimmune issue.
It started with a rash thatwouldn't go away.
It was called stasis dermatitisand and then that went away and
(22:26):
then I ended up getting thevasculitis and then the colitis
and you know, and it it justkept snowballing.
You know I definitely liked myMiller Lite, you know, in
Colorado, you know, by theRockies, I mean, I used to say
that you know there's nothingbetter than getting, you know,
coors Lite right out of thenipple there in Golden Colorado.
You know, and I live in a heavydrinking area and I just, you
(22:49):
know, I definitely partake andafter my divorce I did hit it a
lot harder than you know for afew months.
It wasn't long term butcertainly played a piece.
It was, you know, and I had acrappy diet and you know
Multiple things.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Like you said Multiple things multifactorial.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yeah, cryptogenic is another word that they use, so
it's not any one thing.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
All right, you started talking about dark
tourism Before we.
First of all, when you hear theword dark tourism, if someone's
just popping in and listeningright now and they hear dark
tourism, what does that meanexactly?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
when you say dark tourism, so dark tourism is
simply going to places wheredeath, tragedy, trauma,
suffering, those types of thingshave occurred.
So it's a variety of placesno-transcript and the eastern
(24:02):
state penitentiary, and inlondon they have the clink
prison, south africa I haven'tbeen to this one, but south
africa they have, uh, nelson, Ican't think of it.
Yeah where nelson mandela was at, and so there, and there's a
place in Australia and sothere's, you know, former
prisons around the world.
A lot of people consider thosedark tourism Places of crime and
punishment, like theWhitechapel District in London
(24:24):
where Jack the Ripper washanging out.
So a lot of gangster tours oreven ghost tours, those types of
things around you know a lot ofthem are in a lot of big cities
.
Have those.
Now what elseemeteries,graveyards, I think at first
occurred was, you know, manyyears ago I actually went on one
of my very first vacations,when you know, when my ex-wife
was my girlfriend, you knowseveral years, but we were in
(24:47):
sloppy joe's bar in key westwhere ernest hemingway that was
ernest hemingway's favorite bar,sloppy joe's, and we had this
guy you know he's wearingflip-flops and a straw hat and
you know his Hawaiian shirt andhe comes over and talking, all
you know kind of hippie-ish tous and you know, and he's like
you guys got to go check out thegraveyard.
They have the goofiest epitaphsthere and you know like I
(25:21):
remember going there and it saiddevoted fan of Julio glace.
He is on one of them andanother one has a guy you know
flexing his muscles on the, youknow, with shirtless on his
tombstone and you know justweird kind of quirky things, and
and then there's chickensbouncing around in there and you
know they have chickens allover key west and you know, and
and actually it was so such anexperience that me and my wife,
we we had gone to all.
You know, every time we'd gosomewhere we'd go a graveyard.
You know, paris is one of thebest places to go if you're
going to go tour graveyards.
They have the Pierre Lachaise,where you know Frédéric Chopin,
(25:43):
the concert pianist, but myfavorite there is Jim Morrison.
He's in there.
He wanted to get buried in.
Well, I guess he didn't want to.
They wanted to bury him inParis because they didn't want a
big to-do coming back to theUnited States and they're just
like, oh, let's just do itquietly, but for a dark tour,
it's the Paris catacombs.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah, I've never been to Paris, but if I go to Paris
I want to go to the catacombs.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I had a coworker of mine who went there and she
showed me some pictures and Iwas like, wow, yeah, and you
would think it's.
You know, I think I went theremore for the, you know, kind of
the taboo, the.
You know this, you know this,this has got to be creepy, you
know, and you go in there andit's not creepy, it's, it's
actually I mean it.
Maybe it was creepy to somepeople, but but you have bones
(26:36):
stacked, you know, six feet highby you know six feet.
I mean you're going throughthese tunnels around, you know,
believe, you know 100 feet belowplayers or whatever it is.
But you go through there andyou're thinking, like you know
each of these people.
I mean they had a name, theyhad a family, they had a job,
they had you know, and and youcome out the other side and you
think, like you really respectthe fragility of life and it
makes you want to live, you know, live with more intention and
(26:57):
love deeper and it just remindsyou it's like I'm gonna be a
pile of bones in not that manyyears and it's like I'm not
gonna waste a second with mylife.
And I've been there a coupletimes awesome.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
And is that?
What is that what dark tourismdoes for you?
Because you kind of alluded toit a little bit.
You've had your struggles, youwere down in the dumps for a
long time and then you thinkdark.
Some people in their mindsmight be thinking dark tourism.
That sounds kind of morbid,kind of like he's going to these
places where people died or youknow.
I think of like the twin towersin new york city.
You know the world that's a.
I consider that like a darktourism spot.
(27:31):
You know where that happened.
What is it that draws you todark tourism so much?
Speaker 2 (27:36):
there's many reasons.
I think that is probably thebiggest one.
If you, if you look at, there'sa concept called memento mori
and it's goes back to theancient romans and they used to
have parades for generals.
They would have a personwalking behind them when the,
when the general got a littletoo cocky and they, they would
whisper in their ear mementomori, which which means remember
, you have to die.
(27:57):
It's like you know, try toremind them.
Like you know, don't get toococky, you're going to die
someday.
But that kind of got taken bythe Christians years later,
especially during the year, uh,the Elizabethan era, 1800s,
london area, uh, europe.
So you see a lot of skulls andcross bones and things like that
on on graves like that, andactually there's people that
(28:18):
wore rings to commemorate theirloved ones' deaths, and death
was seen more as kind of theflip side of mental mori is
remember to live, remember tolive with intention.
And I think whenever you go tothese places, that's something
that really sticks out.
For example, when you go toAuschwitz, they have one of the
(28:41):
crematoriums still standing.
You go in in the crematorium orthe gas.
It's a gas chamber crematorium,it's a combined and you go in
there and you're standing inthis, you know it looks like a
regular basement, is just big,but you start, you know,
picturing.
You know, you, you, you go inwith complete reverence for the
things that have happened inthese places.
(29:02):
So I don't go in withsensationalistic motives, I go
in to pay respects, you know, tolearn about history, but really
to pay respects and I reallytry to muster as much empathy as
I can.
So I try to really stand intheir shoes as much as I I I can
.
For you know as much as you can.
You know and you can startpicturing.
You know people falling and,and you know, and and dying.
(29:25):
And it's not something I enjoy,it's something I really don't
enjoy, but it really hits you ina way that when you walk out
the other side of thatcrematorium, you know, you go
down the steps into it and yougo out the other side, past the,
the, the, the, the ovens thatyou know.
You go out the other side andit's like you're not the same
(29:47):
person anymore.
You're not a worse person,you're a better person.
You're, you're, you're, you're.
You know, we've all heard aboutthe Holocaust, but once you
experience the Holocaust in away like that, where you are
standing on this hallowed ground, you vow to help people that
are suffering, and it's made mea better counselor, it's made me
a better human.
It's.
I haven't like I don't thinkI've taken more than a few
seconds for granted since thattime.
(30:08):
And actually when I went, youknow it wasn't long after that,
it was only a couple of monthsafter that.
You know, because I went fromthere to Oslo and then I ended
up a couple of months laterhaving my transplant.
I was able to to go throughthat whole time and when I was
talking about laying uh in mybed, in in, you know, the first
time in, uh, when I was waitingto see if I was going to get
(30:29):
that liver, that, that first dryrun, I guess, you know, I, I
actually my mind would driftback to to Normandy, you know,
and it was kind of weird becauseit's like I never planned that,
I mean.
But you know, when you gothrough these experiences, you
know, for example, when you goto a museum, you, you learn
facts, you learn, you knowthings like that.
But if you go in, and what,actually, when I wrote this book
(30:53):
, I, I couldn't remember thefacts.
The facts go away, but what youremember is the feelings.
So I could remember the way Ifelt every time I went to one of
these places.
I couldn't remember what thetour guide said in any of these
places, but I could remember theway I felt.
I started having some of thesame feelings that maybe some of
the people did on D-Day, whereit's like am I going to live?
(31:14):
You know, their mission was toget across that beach.
My mission was to to survive,you know, and fight on.
Their mission was to fight on,you know.
It gave me strength to getthrough that.
I saw a picture of when I wasstarting to get wheeled down,
you know and I'm coming from aperson who had severe anxiety.
I mean, it was severe.
(31:34):
I had almost no anxiety goingthrough all of this.
I was actually during during Ididn't even talk about this I
was giving what they call aliquid biopsy.
During my whole liver disease Itested positive for liver cancer
and then I had a MRI and, sureenough, they found a nodule and
they're like well, with thosetwo things combined, we almost
can guarantee it's liver cancer.
Well, liver cancer has a 5%survival rate, but you know,
(31:58):
lucky they caught it early andwe're, and I had to.
Every three months I had to goget an MRI.
You know, the nodule didn't goaway but it hadn't grown and
it's like, okay, oof.
You know, nine months later thenodule just went away.
I don't know what happened.
So it wasn't liver cancer, youknow.
They were just waiting, like ifit grows then maybe we can get
a transplant, and if it doesn'tgrow we really can't do anything
about it.
They're just going to wait forit to grow.
(32:19):
And it just went away insteadof growing.
Went through that with almost noanxiety and then I saw a
picture of me getting wheeleddown to the operating room and I
didn't remember having anyanxiety.
I, I, it was kind of struck meas odd because, like for
somebody who had such anxietyall their life, especially for
(32:39):
that year or so when I was goingthrough that dark time I was
having, you know, even a fewyears I had it.
I had almost no anxiety.
The only time I had anxietygoing through that, they, they,
they tied down my arms.
You know that, or they startand they started to.
I said, okay, I'll take the pillnow, because I was feeling I
was.
I'm like I want to rememberthis.
This is kind of cool in a way.
(33:00):
I mean, in a way you know itwas, it was an adventure.
You talk about adventure.
You're not going to get abetter adventure than being on a
transplant list and waiting fora transplant.
And if you can do that with amindset focused on tomorrow and
what's ahead and just lovingevery second, and and I gave
(33:20):
myself permission to like, I'mnot going to fear dying, I like
and being in all these placeswhere so many people have died,
being in all these graveyards,and you know which is another
big piece of dark tourism is isgoing to these graveyards.
You know, like, like thecatacombs, seeing death in that,
in that number, and you know itjust kind of you don't feel so
alone, you feel, you feel likeyou're, you're, you're comforted
(33:43):
by your experiences.
So when I say you know thesedark tour, you know when, when
you're talking about you know itsounds morbid and it's.
You know it is morbid, but youknow it's morbid.
In a way like you're going to aclose relative's funeral.
It's like you don't want to go.
You don't, you know, but youneed to go.
It's something you have to doand if you didn't go you'd feel
(34:03):
guilty, and you know, and you dogo and you, you know, you're
glad that you did and you getsomething out of it.
You honor them and you alsohave the memories that are
created.
You know that it just affectsyou more on an emotional level
and that's what dark tourismreally does, and and you have
all kinds of reflections whenyou're going into these places.
(34:25):
It's not just.
You know, when I went toHiroshima, I went in with a
bunch of school kids that thatwere, you know, probably like in
the 10 year old age group.
There's a big mural when you goin there and it shows Hiroshima
and how beautiful it was, andat the very end of it they have
these school kids in this muraland their life size school kids.
(34:46):
It's black and white.
But then I have these schoolkids that I went through and
their black and white uniforms.
Looking at these black andwhite pictures, and it's just,
it was almost like a mirrorimage and it just.
And then on the, on the wallright next to it, was a clock
stuck at the you know a veryexact second the.
You know the the time that thebomb fell.
And then you go into the nextroom and that same mural is
(35:08):
there and there isn't a thingstanding, it's everything is
just blowing up and up.
And then you're standing, you'regoing through the museum with
these kids and I I was sickgoing through that.
It reminded me of auschwitz.
I was absolutely sick goingthrough auschwitz.
I was absolutely sick goingthrough the hiroshima museum and
I felt so guilty.
Being an american, you know,it's like I understand that
there were major decisions thathad to be made and you know, I'm
(35:31):
not saying we were right orwrong, but also it but think
it's like we nuked a civiliancity.
You know, yeah, I'm glad Ididn't have to make that
decision, I'm glad you know.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
No kidding.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
And and because you do that, you feel like you're
honoring the memory of thepeople that died.
And again you, you walk throughthese places and you don't come
out the same person.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
You come out a better version of yourself, a person
that's just more of ahumanitarian, a person that just
loves deeper is it safe to saythat for you, this has meant so
much to you, partly because ofthat anxiety, I mean, it seems
like it's helped your anxiety.
You're a therapist, you knowbetter than me.
Has it done something for youfrom that respect, medically, do
(36:15):
you think?
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Without a doubt.
Without a doubt, that's a big.
That's what my book is about.
It's I talk about my experience, just basically the things I
just said, and I go into a lotmore detail, especially about
how, the different reflectionsyou have at these various places
.
It's a healing experience andit doesn't heal in the same
respect that a medication does,but it heals you much more on an
(36:40):
existential level.
It's very similar as somebodygoing on a religious pilgrimage
similar as somebody going on areligious pilgrimage.
There's actually a really goodbook that researchers wrote and
actually the guy who wrote theforeword for that book actually
wrote the foreword for my book,which is really cool.
I'm actually going to getsidetracked here.
When I was in Oslo, I read aNational Geographic article and
it was interviewing a guy namedPhilip Stone and he's a
(37:04):
researcher.
They said he was the world'sforemost academic in dark
tourism.
Like, well, dark tourism,that's an academic, it's
actually an academic discipline,which I didn't know.
You know it sounded like justkind of a neat label, but I
found out that day that it'sactually an academic discipline.
In that article it talked about, you know, what are the
different motivations for darktourism.
(37:25):
Yeah, you have some people thatare into it for more like blood
and guts and the sensationalismand and you know, and and then
there's also people like me thatyou know really get something
out of it on a deep, deep,emotional level.
So I put out a concise versionof the book.
I just did a self-publishedconcise edition of my book and
threw it out there just kind ofto see how it would do.
And it did really well.
(37:45):
It was, you know, it was numberone in multiple categories in
Amazon and stuff.
And then this Philip Stone,this Dr Philip Stone that was in
the article he contacted me andwe had developed a relationship
and I had asked him if hewanted to write the foreword to
my book and he did and it's beenjust awesome and mind-blowing.
(38:10):
But anyway, kind of hopping backto what I was saying is dark
tourism and religiouspilgrimages.
There's a huge overlap betweenthe two.
So when people go to Jerusalemactually I write about Jerusalem
, I have a half a chapter aboutJerusalem and my you know,
because Jerusalem has a lot ofdark things that have happened
there, but it also it felt a lotlike a dark tourism spot to me
and I went there when I wasgoing through my health crisis.
I'm like you know, I actually Igot got a tattoo from Jerusalem
, which is which is it's theJerusalem cross and it's
(38:33):
actually the oldest tattoo shopin the world.
It's like 18th generationtattoo artists in the family are
you know?
So this kid gave me this tattooand you know, 18th generation
and the oldest tattoo shop inthe world?
It's in Jerusalem.
But anyway, I went there when Iwas going through my whole
religious thing.
It's like I had to take a crashcourse on religion in case I
didn't make it.
I guess I really don't know why.
And then, right from there, Iwent to the pyramids of Egypt,
(38:56):
which is another.
In the same chapter I writeabout the Egypt and the Valley
of the Kings and King Tut andcoming face to face with his
mummy in the in his tomb, andbig overlap and what you get
from religious pilgrimages anddark tourism I love it.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
This is, this is fascinating to me and as we're
talking in my mind, I'm likethinking I've been to some dark
tourism place that I just neverreally thought of that.
But yeah, I mean, I think ofoklahoma city, I've been to the
bombing site, I mean 100, that'sa, that's a.
One place that strikes me thatI went to that probably isn't
considered dark tourism, but itfelt like it was to me.
(39:33):
Was I went to Mount Vernon andI saw Washington's tomb and also
in the room I was, in, the roomthat he died, in, that he had
this coughing attack and wherehe died.
Oh really, it was just like yousaid I came away from there,
kind of different than when Iwhen I went there.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
I would without a doubt call Mount Vernon a dark
tourism spot.
Slavery.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Slavery A hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Yep Plantations.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
You know there's one plantation like every one of
your listeners I need to go atleast your American listeners
need to go to the WhitneyPlantation.
It's about 45 minutes out ofNew Orleans and the Whitney
Plantation most people think oflike plantations, it's like oh,
Southern Bells and you know allthat kind of stuff, and this is
the exact opposite.
(40:20):
This is plantations.
From the slavery point of view,it's beautiful, but you know
the actual the, the main houseis just walk through and they do
that on purpose, I'm sure of it, where it's just a walk through
space and they have, you know,the, the slavery huts, and the j
, the jails and the.
You know they have a bunch ofheads on a pike from a slave
(40:41):
revolt that you know.
Statues, of course it has.
Yeah, it's just some place thatif you go there and fly your
Confederate flag, you gotsomething mentally seriously
wrong with you.
I mean, it's something thatwill change your life and it's,
you know it's similar to PearlHarbor or going to the 9-11
Museum.
Whitney Plantation, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Whitney Plantation.
I got to remember that one thenAdd that to my list.
Yeah, wow, absolutely, whitneyplantation.
I got to remember that one thenadd that to my list.
Wow, fantastic.
So all these places you've been, and you've been to a lot of
them.
We talked about the catacombsand Auschwitz and Hiroshima and
places like that.
Is there any one in particularthat kind of shook you the most,
that you kind of just really,you know, got to you?
Speaker 2 (41:23):
Oh man, you know the, when I walked through the gas
chamber gas chamber at Auschwitz, I mean I knew coming out on
the other side and that thingswere different.
You know, going there, we tooka bus there from Krakow and it
was, I don't know, maybe like anhour ride, I can't remember
exactly, but you know kind oflike, oh, this is going to.
(41:46):
You know kind of a littlenervous going there, but you
know okay.
And then you get there and likeoh my God, the reflections you
have seeing the cruelty thathumans did to humans.
And a big piece of the reason Iwent there is there's a book
called Man's Search for Meaningby a psychiatrist named Viktor
Frankl, and he was apsychiatrist.
(42:08):
Well, he was a doctor atAuschwitz.
He was a Jew and they kept himalive because he was a doctor
and he talked about hisexperiences there and how they
could predict who was going tolive and die, not by who went to
the gas chamber, but by who whobasically had a will to live,
(42:28):
and that really struck me and,and that is something that I
think, most dark tourism spots.
You know that they, that theydo is that they help you find
your own meaning and purpose inyour own life.
You just start having thesereflections when you see that
you know such horror it causesyou to have those reflections
(42:52):
and to just you know, like Isaid, live with more intention
and you, just you know it was.
It became more crystal clear tome kind of what my purpose was,
and it's to love my family,friends and to help people.
You know those are my.
That's what makes me tick,that's why I wrote the book.
I mean it's that and because Ihad a ton of energy after a
transplant that I haven't had inmany, many years.
(43:13):
What have I been?
Speaker 1 (43:14):
missing all these years.
A liver, that's what it was.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
A liver, exactly Wow.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
This is.
This is amazing and I'm I'mkind of getting just I don't
know if I'm getting emotional, Idon't know.
It's just just hearing you talkabout the things is really it's
affected me.
Tell me about the book a littlebit.
Where can people get it, what'sthe name?
And then just a little bitabout your book so I can let
people know about it.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
So it's Beyond the Darkness, it's transformative
journeys through dark tourism.
It's the publisher is White FoxPublishing.
They're out of London, littlesmall publishing, but they do.
They do a lot of the, the big.
Actually, the person you cansee my, my book cover behind me,
the person who did that's asenior designer at penguin books
(43:54):
, I mean.
So it's like you, it's.
It's been done by like theabsolute top-notch professionals
in publishing.
So it's a really well writtenbook and it has awesome.
It's been gotten through someeditorial critique or, uh, not
editorial critiques reviews.
Yes, thank you, and it's youknow san francisco, uh, book
(44:14):
review called it.
You know rare and unforgettableand and it's had just you know
several.
You can, you can read about it.
You go to drchadscottcom andyou can see all the different
reviews and it's.
I literally could not havewritten better reviews for
myself, so that that's how goodthe reviews are and I'm not
actually not kidding about that.
But you can get it on on Amazon, any, any of the normal
(44:34):
bookstores online and and it andkind of hit or miss on if
they're, if they're going to bein a bookstore near you, wow.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah, I'm excited to get thebook.
I'm definitely going to get thebook because I'm excited and
intrigued about it.
Plus, I've loved ourconversation here.
So if there's someone out there, you know, maybe and you're a
therapist, so you have someonewho's maybe struggling a little
bit and they're kind of dealingwith some depression Maybe
they're going through a divorceor relationship issue or some
health issues why would you saythat, you know, going on a dark
(45:04):
tourism trip or whatever?
Why would, what would be thebenefit to them to do that?
What would you say to them?
Speaker 2 (45:09):
I would say just go and you start seeing pieces of
yourself in almost all of them.
For example, I was at the JesseJames house where he was shot
and it's like, okay, I wentthere for the history of it.
I was.
I actually went there to go toa psychiatric museum which is
probably one of my favoritemuseums the Glore Psychiatric
Museum in St Joseph, missouri.
(45:29):
It talks about the history ofbeing a therapist.
That was just right up my alley.
So if anybody has an interestin psychiatric stuff, that's the
place to go.
But also in that same town,jesse James is the house that he
was shot in and it has thepicture frame that he was
adjusting when he was shot byRobert Ford.
I started having reflectionsthat night about betrayal and I
(45:51):
talk about this in my book and Idon't want to get into too many
details.
But I've had some pretty bigbetrayals in my life by people
close to me and by a really goodfriend that I talk about.
I actually talk about the job Ihad where I felt really
betrayed by my employer becauseof this nepotism and they gave a
CEO to somebody who wassomebody's wife.
You know, you know, you havejust these reflections and you
(46:12):
don't.
I guess you don't know whatyou're going to get when you go
to these places.
If you go to enough of them, oreven if you go to one of them,
you know you're going to havesomething that benefits you on
an emotional level.
You know, and you don't have totravel far to go.
I mean, and you don't have totravel far to go.
I mean, almost every town has agraveyard.
Go walk through your graveyard.
You're going to findinteresting things in your
graveyard, like even littlehaunted tours.
(46:32):
I mean, actually, next week I'mgoing to be in Boston for a
trauma conference and I'm takinga day and I'm going to go stay
at the Lizzie Borden house,which is known for gruesome axe
murder and it's supposed to beone of the most haunted houses
in the world and I'm I'm stayingalone by in lizzie borden's
bedroom.
You know, okay, I'm going alittle bit for the
sensationalism of it.
I admit, on that one, some ofthe ghost tourism and you know,
(46:55):
yeah, it falls more into that.
You know which, you know, andthere's a spectrum of dark
tourism.
There's very serious stuff likeauschwitz and hiroshima, and
you know, in the catacombs I'dstick more on that side and you
know in graveyards and but youknow.
But then there's other onesthat are a little more, you know
, I would almost call them fun,like the London dungeon, which
(47:15):
is you walk through thesedifferent rooms and they have
actors acting different, andI've been to a few of them.
There's one in Berlin and Ithink there's some other ones
too, but those are the two I'vebeen to.
There's some other ones too,but those are the two I've been
to and they there's their actors, and they do this like they
call it gallows humor, where youknow where they talk about you
know, getting your head choppedoff and ha ha ha, you know.
But it's also telling youhistory and you're thinking like
(47:35):
this really did kind of happen.
I mean, this did happen topeople and but it's so far
removed and it's not on thelocation, so it's not.
You're not really on hallowedground and you know it's kind of
fun, but you're also learningand it also hits you a little
bit on an emotional level.
So there's that kind of stufftoo.
But when you're really on the,in the, on the sacred side of
things, where you're walking onthat hallowed ground, I mean it
changes you in the fabric you'remade out of, and in a good way.
(47:58):
You're like I said, you're morecaring, loving more, you know,
devoted person to your, to thethings that keep you motivated
in life it's interesting youtalk about boston.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
Boston came to my mind too because I've been to
boston a few times and thecemeteries in boston they're all
over the place and that that'sone of the biggest memories I
have of my time in boston wasseeing those different
cemeteries, with some, you know,famous revolutionary folks in
it and yeah, yeah, incredible,see samuel adams and yeah, yeah
yeah, absolutely wow and that'sthat's.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
That's actually chapter two of my book.
I talk about the boston and thehow you know kind of america's
how, actually how america'sbuilt on both.
You know like, yeah, we havesome, you know we fought it for
independence and rah, rah, rah,you know fireworks, but then we
also slaughtered a bunch ofIndians and we had the Battle of
Wounded Knee and places likethat, and I talk about that.
(48:55):
It's like you know, it's notall about fireworks.
We did some really bad thingstoo, just like Hiroshima.
Some things.
The rise to America in partshould be mourned, some of the
things we did.
And I'm not saying that becausewe should be ashamed of being
Americans.
We should love being Americans.
But we have to realize that youknow we hurt people too and
that is part of our history.
(49:16):
And acknowledging that also,and slavery and you know, and
all these things, acknowledgingthat stuff brings together a
shared unity that we all have.
That it's like you know, let'sget through this together.
Let's let's not have outcastsanymore.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
This has been fascinating.
I've man, I've loved this.
My final question to you it's aquestion I like to ask
everybody is what does adventuremean to you?
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Gosh, I think any time you go out of your comfort
zone it's an adventure, whetherwhether it for my clients.
Sometimes going to the grocerystore is an adventure because
you know that they, they stay intheir house, they don't leave
they're they're, they'redepressed or they have
agoraphobia where they have,they have panic and anxiety just
leaving their house.
Going to the mailbox for somepeople is an adventure, for me,
(50:00):
yeah, okay, going by myselfacross the world, that's an
adventure.
But you know, just step outsideyour comfort zone If it's just
a little bit or a lot.
My biggest fear in life, otherthan family dying, is, as a
pilot is, skydiving.
You know, it's like why wouldanybody want to jump out of an
airplane?
And I was riding my bike downin Texas a couple of weeks ago
(50:22):
and I saw skydiving on on anairport, the side of an airport
building, and I'm like, oh myGod, I got to do it and it was a
challenge to myself and I didit and I did it with almost no
fear.
And again, it's like every timeI've done something, whether
it's adventure tourism or darktourism, it's coming out of your
comfort zone and that's whatmakes you a better human being.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
So I love your podcast and it's adventure focus
, because adventure is importantand, like you said, almost
pretty much every episode comingout of your comfort zone is
mentioned.
You know, there you go.
We talked about it earlier.
You talked about it again rightnow.
Dr Chad Scott, thank you somuch for coming on.
Journey with Jake.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
Yeah, Jake, Thanks for having me.
It's been a lot of fun andeverybody Beyond the Darkness.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
Wow.
Thank you, Dr Chad Scott, forjoining me on Journey with Jake
and sharing your powerful story.
Hearing how dark tourism helpedyou process your struggles and
spark something deep within youwas truly inspiring.
I'm so grateful we had thechance to have that conversation
.
Be sure to check out Chad'sbook Beyond the Darkness
Transformative Journeys ThroughDark Tourism.
You can find it on Amazon orvisit his website,
(51:31):
drchadscottcom to learn more.
And don't forget to follow himon Instagram at drchadscott.
These episodes give me so muchenergy and make me appreciate
life in a deeper way.
I hope you're feeling that too.
If this episode resonated withyou, would you do me a quick
favor?
Share Journey with Jake with afriend, just one person you
(51:52):
think would enjoy or be inspiredby it.
That small act helps the showgrow and keeps the journey going
, and, as always, I'd love tohear from you.
Email me anytime, jake, atjourneywithjakenet, or send me a
message on Instagram atjourneywithjakepodcast.
Thanks so much for tuning in.
(52:13):
It truly means the world to me.
We've got another great episodecoming.
Next week I'll be chatting withLarry Campbell, who took an
adventure down the mightyMissouri River and wrote a
fascinating memoir about theexperience.
It's a fun and thoughtprovoking conversation I can't
wait to share.
Until then, just remember, it'snot always about the
destination, it is about thejourney.
Take care everybody.
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