#182 - Two simple questions changed everything for Bernard "Chalky" White. Growing up under the shadow of an abusive father who regularly beat both him and his mother, Chalky developed a survival mechanism that unfortunately led him to abandon his education completely by age 13. With zero qualifications at 16, he joined the police cadets and eventually became a London "Bobby," though his heart was never truly in law enforcement.
During his nine-year police career, Chalky witnessed unspeakable horrors, including a gruesome murder of a child and two near-death experiences where fellow officers failed to intervene. But fate intervened in late 1973 when a friend casually invited him skiing. Watching instructors and seasonal workers enjoying mountain life in Andora sparked something profound within him.
That's when Chalky stumbled upon two transformative questions that would guide his decisions forevermore: "What if I don't?" followed by "What if I do?" The emotional shift between considering negative consequences and positive possibilities gave him the courage to resign from the police force and pursue a completely different life.
The path wasn't straightforward. Chalky faced brutal rejection, including being told he would "never be a ski instructor" and later that his "wrong body shape" (bowed legs) made certification impossible. To fund his dreams, he sold encyclopedias door-to-door in Germany, managed a discotheque in Morocco, and took whatever jobs kept his skiing ambitions alive.
His persistence paid off. After failing multiple British certification attempts, he traveled to New Zealand where an instructor showed him how to adapt his technique to his physique. He passed on his first try and has spent decades teaching skiing, authoring the successful "Seven Secrets of Skiing" and recently publishing his memoir "Keep Chewing the Granite: How Two Questions Can Change Your Life."
Chalky's story demonstrates how asking yourself the right questions can completely transform your perspective and ultimately your life. What decisions might change for you if you asked yourself "What if I don't?" followed by "What if I do?" Try this simple but powerful technique today and see where it leads you.
To get a copy of Chalky's book check out Amazon!
Want to be a guest on Journey with Jake? Send me a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/journeywithjake
Visit LandPirate.com to get your gear that has you, the adventurer, in mind. Use the code "Journey with Jake" to get an additional 15% off at check out.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What if I don't?
What if I do?
Those two questions changedeverything for Bernad Chalky
White, from a violent childhoodto the front lines as a police
officer and eventually to thesnowy peaks as a ski instructor
and author.
Chalky's journey is all aboutresilience, risk and the courage
to take the leap.
Welcome to Journey with Jake.
(00:20):
This is a podcast aboutadventure and how, through our
adventures, we can overcome thechallenges of life that come our
way.
While I expect you will learnsome things about different
adventures, this show willentertain you.
Each episode will feature adifferent guest or guests, as
they share experiences andstories from the different
adventures they have been on.
Not only will you beentertained, but you will also
(00:42):
hear the failures and trialseach guest faces and what they
have done or are doing toovercome the hardships that come
their way.
My goal is to take each of uson a journey through the
experiences of my guests, withthe hope that you'll be
entertained and inspired toovercome your day-to-day
challenges.
After all, it's not all aboutthe destination as it is about
(01:05):
the journey.
Hey, everyone, welcome back toJourney with Jake.
Before we jump in, make sureyou're subscribed so you don't
miss an episode.
You can also catch the show onYouTube and if you want to see a
(01:30):
little more of the personalside of my life, come hang out
with me on Instagram atjourneywithjakepodcast.
Today I'm joined by BernardChalky-White.
Now in the UK they pronounce itBurn-Ed.
I think Burn-Ed Well, I tend tosay Bernard, but however you
say it, his story isunforgettable From a tough
childhood and years as a Londonpolice officer to reinventing
himself as a ski instructor,author and speaker.
(01:50):
Chalky shows what resilience,big questions and a love
adventure can lead to.
And if you like this one, Ithink you'll also enjoy episode
31 with Dave Kahananui, where wetalk about his Hawaiian roots
and his experience going back tohis roots on a rare trip to the
islands.
Okay, let's get to myconversation with Chalky White.
(02:11):
All right, I'm excited todayI've got Bernard Chalky White on
the call with me today.
Chalky, welcome to Journey withJake.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Great to speak with you and I really appreciate the
invitation.
By the way, my first name,which I only really use for
business, is not pronouncedBernard.
It's pronounced Bernard,bernard, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Does everybody say Bernard?
Does everyone mess it up andsay Bernard, or am I just a
screw-up?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
on names.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
All right, my Aussie buddy, rick Bamford, would be so
proud of me right now.
Well, he wouldn't be proud,he'd be like typical.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Jake, it doesn't bother me, I'm just letting you
know I don't care really.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Okay, say it again Burn it, burn it how do you say
it, burn it, burn it.
Burn it.
I'm going to call you.
I'm just going to call you.
Chalky Does that work.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
The only thing I use Burn Bernard for is on business
stuff.
Otherwise I'm universally knownas Chalky.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Perfect, you're signing your life away with
Bernard.
I can't even.
That's right, chalky.
I'm just going to say Chalky,we'll just stick with Chalky,
all right?
Since you brought it up, sincewe brought up Chalky, my first
question where did Chalky comefrom?
How did you come up with that?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
When I was 16, I'd just left school, after getting
zero qualifications, I might addI joined the police cadets the
Kent police cadets, just southof London and the first morning
that I was there we had to showup in the gym in the clothing
that you'd use for gymnasticsand stuff, and the drill
(03:42):
sergeant comes in with a know,with a stick under his arm, and
he's going around and askingeverybody their names, and I
won't use the vernacular.
But he said something likewhat's your bleep, bleep name?
And I said white sir.
And he said because all theother guys I've just joined with
are all there, right, and heannounced lads.
(04:04):
He said we've got a Chalky, aChalky White.
And I've been stuck with thatsince 1964, would you believe?
Yeah, and it's been useful downthe years, because even in the
ski business people don't evenknow what my last name is.
They just go in the ski schooland ask for Chalky.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
I'm looking for Chalky.
It's funny.
So your last name, white, andthat's how he came up with it.
Yeah, exactly, chalky.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
White, chalky's White .
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Chalky.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
White, that's exactly right yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
And then it stuck with you.
I don't know if you know now,but there is a chalky white on
it.
I think it was boardwalk empire.
I'm very aware I don't know ifyou knew that around a lot
longer than him.
I'm sorry to say yeah, so Ijust I that came up too because
I think when I googled you I waslike, oh, chalky white from
boardwalk empire, from hbo.
(04:57):
Anyway, beside the point, thankyou for sharing that.
I thought that would be a fun,kind of a fun way to start
things off.
Usually what I have people dois kind of give it a little
background.
You kind of alluded to it alittle bit.
You said 16 years old.
God, you went to the policecadets at 16.
High school.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
No, sounds like you failed high school school.
A lot of that was because of myfather.
He was a very violent man.
He not only used to beat me ona regular basis, he also used to
beat my mother, which I'venever, obviously.
I've never been able to forgivehim for that.
Forgive him what he did to me,but not to my mother.
(05:36):
Anyway, when I was 13, you know,we would every semester, what
we call every term we'd have totake a school report home and
whether it was good, bad orindifferent, indifferent he
still beat me right.
So I got to the age of 13 andkids logic I thought, yeah, he's
gonna beat me anyway, so whybother doing anything at all?
So I completely and utterlyquit, quit all school work when
(05:58):
I was 13 and just used todisrupt the class and all this
stuff.
You know, and I'll get.
I'd get to 16 and you know myold man, my father, said well,
what are you going to do nowthen?
So I didn't have a clue, butactually it was his idea that I
joined the police cadets.
I managed to somehow fluke myway through their entrance exam
and I got into the police cadetswhen I was 16.
(06:18):
And then I joined.
I did that for two years andthen at 19, I became a
fully-fledged police officer, ABobby, you know, you've heard of
the Bobbies.
A Bobby, yeah, but a Bobbytechnically actually is only in
London.
But I eventually transferred tothe Metropolitan London Police
anyway and became a true Bobby.
I've still got the hat,actually, Wow.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I've still got the hat, do you really?
Okay, that's what I picturewhen I hear people saying the
bobby's is that hat?
Oh, look at that.
So for those of you watching onyoutube, he's got the hat right
here.
When you picture it, you know,when you think of the bobby
police, london police, that'sexactly what you, that's exactly
what I picture and the otherthing is look there it is this.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
We didn't have guns, of course, this was.
The only weapon we had was thisstick.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
You just carried that little billy club.
Yeah, that little stick.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
The real name for it is a truncheon and that goes
back to 1969.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
Thank you for sharing that.
That makes this fun.
So yeah, for my listeners whoare just listening audio sorry
you can't see it for those ofyou watching on youtube, you can
get the full, the full taste ofwhat that is.
So you're, you're from england,london area family besides your
(07:36):
parents and you had a dad whowas very abusive.
Did you have any siblings oranything like that?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
half brother that didn't talk to me.
He hadn't talked to me since1983, and actually about two
months ago he died.
But you know I wasn't so sorryabout it because he hadn't
spoken to me.
We had an argument overbusiness and, you know, for some
reason he never wanted to, buthis kids always stayed in
contact with him, which is kindof weird, yeah, and I'm back in
(08:02):
contact with them again now.
Yeah, I'm now also anaturalized American.
I became an American about 16years ago, but I still have the
British passport too.
I have both.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Very good, All right, so you've got both passports.
That's awesome.
Both citizenships from bothplaces.
That's great.
Growing up in an abusivehousehold like that, I've never
been in a situation like that.
What's that like.
Knowing that you're, you knowthe chance of getting beat is
really high.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Like what's that like mentally for you and as a kid?
Well, obviously you're in fearall the time.
You know, I remember one onebeating where he was accusing me
of lying about something and Ihadn't, and he just kept beating
me and beating me and beatingme until he wanted me to admit
(08:49):
that I'd been lying and I never,ever gave in to him.
I just didn't give in to him,you know, and of course it
definitely like I said, you knowI completely flunked school.
Obviously I didn't go tocollege because I didn't have
any qualifications to go tocollege.
The college I went toeventually, of course, was when
I was 19.
(09:09):
I joined the police.
I went to police trainingschool, police training college,
yeah, you know, studying lawand stuff, place called Nutfield
in Surrey in England.
And then I was a policeman forum in Kent, in the Kent County
of Kent, just south of London,for almost three years and then
I transferred to theMetropolitan Police and some of
(09:30):
the most incredible thingshappened to me when I was
actually in Kent.
I mean, I actually was thewitness to a very gruesome
murder when I was in Kent.
I mean, I can tell you a littleabout it.
It's in my book.
I can tell you a little moreabout that if's in my book.
I can tell you a little moreabout that if you'd like me to.
It's not a very cheerful story.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
No, I guess not.
You know, witnessing a murder.
I think you were almost killeda few times yourself Twice, but
I also think you had some twice,wow.
And I also think you had anamazing where you saved a baby
or an infant or something likethat as well.
Yeah, if you don't mind, kindof give me tell us a little bit
about the murder that youwitnessed, and then maybe some
of the better parts of it,because it sounds like it was
(10:11):
tough for you.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Well, I'll give you a pretty brief explanation of it
because, for time reasons,obviously.
So this would have been October1968.
And I was in a town calledChatham, in Kent, chatham's
famous, for he built the ship,the Victory.
You might have heard of AdmiralNelson, you've heard of
(10:36):
Trafalgar Square in London.
Well, his statue is inTrafalgar Square.
That's where they built hisship.
That's what it was reallyfamous for.
Anyway, 9 o'clock in the morning, I was on early shift, been
working since 6 am, and I'm justdriving back into the police
yard to go and get some food anda call comes out attempted
(10:56):
suicide.
So I just drive up there atjust normal pace, not hurrying
up, because I knew apparentlythere were ambulance guys
already there.
So I get there and I get to thebottom of the stairs to this
block of apartments and there'stwo ambulance guys standing
there with a stretcher, with aman on it, and I said what's the
(11:19):
problem with him?
And they put the stretcher downand they said don't worry about
him, come with us.
We go up the stairs, turn right, turn right again into into an
apartment.
And these apartments were a bitpeculiar because they had an
upstairs and a downstairs, eventhough they're apartments and we
, we go in.
We go in there and we turnright into the kitchen and what?
(11:43):
What I saw?
I knew it couldn't be good.
There was a red hospital-typeblanket covering something with
a pair of small feet stickingout of the end.
One of them said you're notgoing to like this, but I'm
going to show you anyway.
He pulls back the blanket andunderneath it is a 12 year old
(12:06):
girl, dead, with her intestinesliterally laying on the floor
beside her.
So what was the story behind allthat?
Well, the man on the stretcheroh, before I go into that, I
called for help and half theKent police detectives came.
(12:27):
While I'm waiting, I went intothe front room.
There's a woman sitting thereand she's sitting there drinking
nine o'clock in the morningdrinking a glass of scotch
whiskey.
I said what do you know aboutthat in the kitchen?
And she said she just shruggedher shoulders.
I said right, you're underarrest on suspicion of murder.
(12:48):
So the detectives arrived andthey took her away.
And what had actually happened,very briefly, was that the man
and the woman were husband andwife.
He was the janitor of a blockof apartments and they'd been
photographed.
(13:09):
This girl lived on the samecommunal landing as they did,
and every day she would go walkup and down, going back and
forwards to school, and theywould take photographs of her,
by the way, in the kitchen.
When, when I saw first saw herbody on over the sink area was a
black drape over the kitchenwith a couple of black candles,
and they'd become veryinterested in black magic and
(13:32):
they decided that they wanted tosacrifice a virgin for black
magic reasons.
Kind of a long story short.
The man on the stretcher wastaken to hospital.
A friend of mine was sent tothe hospital a detective and he
asked where he was.
They said well, he's in theoperating theatre, so he goes
down there.
(13:52):
And in the end he couldn'tstand it.
So he walked in into theoperating theatre where he's
being operated on.
He said do you know what thatguy's done?
And they said no.
So he explained and all of asudden the operating theater
emptied and the guy died.
I think in certain circles Icall that summary justice.
(14:14):
And the woman, his wife,eventually went to to court to
what they used to call beingback in the day Kent Assizes
called it Crown Court these daysand she was put on trial and
asked whether she would pleadguilty or not guilty to murder.
(14:34):
She pleaded not guilty tomurder, but her counsel, her
lawyer, said she will pleadguilty to manslaughter.
The judge accepted the plea formanslaughter, which means the
killing of a human being by ahuman being without malice of
force.
Or there's plenty of malice inthat.
He gave her three years.
(14:56):
Three years, that's all she gotfor that and she was out in two
years for good behavior.
The father of the girlthreatened all that time to kill
her, but I don't think he everdid it.
So in my book that's a storycalled Justice, not Done, not
Even Close, and when I gotmurdered just very briefly, I
(15:18):
nearly got I think it wasn'tmurdered because I'm sitting-
here, when I was almost murderedonce was by strangulation, when
a guy was laying on top of mewith his hands around my throat
throttling me, and actually withthis stick that I just showed
you, I had to hit him on thehead 10 times before he let go
(15:40):
and the officer I was withdidn't step in to pull him off,
which wasn't good, obviously.
And the other time I was in akitchen, a domestic dispute
where a guy kept attacking hiswife.
I said if you attack her oncemore, I'm going to arrest you,
because back in the day what weused to try and do was domestic
(16:01):
disputes.
We used to try and do it act ina way to get them to settle it
between themselves, rather thanarrest people.
But I said to him if you touchher again, I'm going to arrest
you.
There was another guy with me.
He attacked her again and outof nowhere he grabbed a big
(16:22):
carving knife and he comesstraight at me and I fell over
on my back and the carving knifewas literally there and somehow
I managed to push him off.
And again I couldn't believe it.
The guy the other officer withme didn't try and step in.
His words to me were well, youlook like you were doing okay on
(16:44):
your own.
I refused to ever work with himagain.
Refused said no, never, evergoing to work with him again.
And I didn't, you know, and hewas actually, apart from being a
colleague, he was also a friendof mine.
You know, a bit of chicken, youknow.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Unbelievable.
A bit of chicken.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
I mean, what I knew was back in the day, no matter
how scared you got, you didn'trun away.
You just did not.
You could not, no, and I'dcertainly never did myself.
You know I've been in somepretty iffy situations.
Other than that, the thing isabout being a British cop.
You know you can't stand therewith a gun and say, if you come
any closer I'm going to shootyou.
(17:20):
You can't do that.
So everything has to be upclose and personal to arrest
someone.
Got to get close to them to doit.
How else are you going to do it?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
You can't you know, yeah, yeah, wow, what an
experience.
How long were you a policemanfor?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Almost three years a cadet.
Sorry, two years a cadet.
Three years in the kent policeand then six years in the
metropolitan police.
So nine, nine years altogetheras an actual policeman.
You know, the reason I wentinto it is because I couldn't
find anything better to do atthe time.
So I never, I never reallywanted to be a cop, although I
think I was a pretty good copbecause I always, I always tried
to do the job.
You know, even though I despiseit and I always wanted out in
the do the job, you know, eventhough I despise it and I always
wanted out In the book, youknow two questions that can
(18:09):
change your life.
That's where I first came upwith those questions to get me
out of the police.
I can tell you about that ifand when you want me to.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yeah, no, we'll talk about the book here in a little
bit.
But I know you know after theand you didn't want to be in the
police department necessarily,you like you said you just it
was something for you to do.
You didn't know what else to do, so you did that.
When you got out of the police,I know you got into skiing.
Were you?
Were you always interested inskiing, or is that later in life
, like, how did you pick upskiing and why?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
what happened was I?
Eventually I left the police in1975.
But in very late 1973, I wasasked one of the most important
questions of my life.
I've never skied before and afriend of mine walked in and he
said hey, chalky, you want to goon a ski trip?
Well, I've basically been on aski trip ever since.
That was 1975, as I said.
(19:03):
So I went on that ski trip tripand then I went on one the
following year and I and I sawall these guys in a place called
andora you might have heard ofa little country in the pyrenees
mountains just north ofbarcelona in spain, where at
that time you could buy a bottleof scotch whiskey for like a
buck and a half.
So it was good fun, that placefor sure.
(19:23):
But when I got there I saw allthese guys.
They were working on ski lifts,they were working on bars, some
of them were even skiinstructors.
And I'm thinking to myself man,I wonder if I could do some of
that.
And of course, in my book youknow the two questions.
That's when I did.
I came up inadvertently withthe two questions what if I
(19:45):
don't and what if I do?
And those two questions werewhat got me out of the police.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
So again, tell me those two questions again,
because those are very good,those are good questions.
I haven't really thought ofthose before.
What if tell me yes, tell meagain what those questions are?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Is by asking a negative first and a positive
second, you get an emotionchange.
Change of emotion Like what ifI don't leave the police force
and go back to Andorra and tryto follow my dreams and even
eventually try and become a skiinstructor?
(20:23):
What would be the repercussionsof that for me if I'd done it?
Of course the answers you comeup with are awful.
You hate them.
But then you say to yourselfright, but what if I do go and
do all those things?
What can happen to me then?
Maybe I could eventually becomea ski instructor?
(20:46):
And of course you get that bigemotion change right from being
kind of done like that to beingpretty elated.
Well, the very next day, afterthe very first time I'd ever
asked those questions to myself,the very next day, I resigned
my post in the police force,never to return, 10th of August
(21:08):
1975.
I left the police in 10th ofAugust.
In October, myself and my bestold friend Russ Sinton, we took
off in an old VW van down toAndorra and that's where I
became a ski, became a ski bum.
Yeah, there's a lot more to thestory, obviously.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah but I love, I love those questions.
What if I don't kind of startwith a negative, and then what
if I do go to a positive?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
you get that you can do that with anything important
thing is is you get that changeof emotion.
That change of emotion, yeah,I've got to do this and it kind
of makes you want to do it.
And I've used them many, manytimes down the years to
naysayers, to third partynaysayers I mean there's many
stories I can tell you aboutthat kind of thing.
(21:57):
And when did things tend to gowrong for me?
When I didn't use thosequestions.
That's when it went wrong.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
I think one of the things I read about you was you
became a ski bum, but you alsowanted to become an instructor
and I think you failed at that.
I think you had naysayerstelling you you weren't going to
be able to be an instructor.
Tell me a little bit about thatexperience.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
So that very first season, the 1975-76 ski season
in Andorra, about halfwaythrough the season, my skiing
has started to improve some, butit certainly wasn't, by any
stretch of the imagination,great.
And I was already.
I was already, uh, 28 at thattime, so I wasn't, wasn't a kid
anymore.
Right halfway through theseason there's a bunch of ski.
So I've got to know a lot ofski instructors and a bunch of
(22:41):
them in a bar and very stupid, Isuppose.
I announced I'm going to tryand be a ski instructor and one
of these guys shouts out Chalky,you'll never be a ski
instructor as long as you've gota hole where the sun doesn't
shine.
If you get my drift, if you getmy drift.
(23:07):
And that was another occasionwhere eventually I would ask
myself what if I don't?
What if I do, what if I don't?
Really keep trying.
You know, keep trying.
And after that first ski seasonI went down to Greece and I was
a beach bum on an island calledSkiasos in Greece.
(23:28):
Right, I had a wonderful time.
But I got back from there and Ihad no money whatsoever and I
knew that I couldn't go backstraight back to andorra because
I didn't have any, didn't haveany money.
Right, I started applying, Ifound jobs in in the newspaper
and I eventually found this joband I I knew I didn't want to
(23:49):
work in in britain.
I decided I wasn't going towork in Britain.
Eventually this job came up andit said supplying educational
materials to the United Statesmilitary in West Germany, go to
this hotel for an interview.
So I go to the Russell Hotel inRussell Square in London and I
(24:15):
go into this great big room andthere must have been 100 people
sitting there.
I thought what's going on here?
You know, eventually a guycomes out onto the stage and he
starts producing all these broadsheets with writing and
pictures and all that.
And I looked around andsuddenly there's all these
people disappearing like ratsleaving a sinking ship.
(24:37):
And eventually I realized whatthe job was was selling
encyclopedias door to door inWest Germany to the United
States military, people that theUnited States military that
were living out on the germaneconomy, not on the basis.
So of course you know I'll gohome and I'll tell my father
(24:59):
about this job because I just Iwas probably going to do it.
And of course he was thebiggest naysayer I've ever had
in my life and he said oh,nobody ever makes any money
doing that.
But I went anyway.
So this guy interviewed meafterwards.
The guy was on the stage and hesaid buy yourself an air ticket
, he said, to West Germany, toFrankfurt, he said.
(25:21):
And then come to the Miner'sShelf Hotel, he said when you
get there, he said, every pennyyou've spent to get there, he
said, I'll reimburse you.
Out of the 100 people that werein that room to start with, only
four of us showed up at thehotel for the training.
By halfway through the weekthere were only two of us.
(25:42):
After the four days of trainingwe were both sent out on teams
to different teams.
In the afternoon, when I gotthere, my new manager told me
the other guys left as well.
So out of a hundred people Iwas now the only one that was
still going to do the job.
But even then I was taken to alittle cold, nasty village in
(26:05):
west germany, because by nowit's october, so it's already
getting pretty cold right andI'm dropped off.
I'm sitting on the groundthinking am I really going to do
this?
And I must have sat there for30 minutes, 45 minutes.
We only had four hours right.
Eventually I said to myselfwhat if I don't go and knock on
(26:30):
that door?
What's going to be therepercussions of that for me?
What if I don't ever knock on adoor?
What's going to be therepercussions of that for me?
What if I don't ever knock on adoor and run through my mind,
I'll have to go and tell myfather I failed, which was to me
the worst thing that I couldpossibly ever have.
And then I ask myself but whatif I do?
(26:51):
What if I do go and do it?
Well, I might make the sale ofthe year.
I might sell lots and lots ofbooks.
I'll make loads of moneybecause they're going to pay me
$105.
This is 1976, remember $105American dollars every time I
sell one, right?
(27:12):
What if I do sell a load ofbooks?
I got up.
The emotion change had happened.
I went and knocked on the door.
Young fella comes to the door.
He says yeah, what do you need?
And I said and they taught us tosay this oh, I didn't use chalk
(27:34):
, because no one first, mostpeople don't understand steps.
I use my real name and I usethe American version.
Oh, hi, my name's Bernard fromEngland.
And while I'm here in Germany,I'd also like to visit an
American family.
Would I be welcome in your home.
Come on in, bernard, so I'llget in there and start giving
(27:57):
him.
You know the spiel, you knowthat that.
We know the sales spiel thatwe've been taught to give.
You know, but before that therewere two, two rules.
One was that you didn't try tosell to the guy.
If you saw, saw some uh, bookssitting in the corner, and I'll
get in there, and there's thisset of books sitting in the
(28:17):
corner, I thought oh no, and Ithought I need to practice
anyway.
So I gave him the spiel and itprobably it's supposed to take
45 minutes.
It took me about an hour and ahalf his first time writing it.
And he said, bernard, he said Ithink the books are wonderful.
(28:38):
He said, but can you come backwhen my girlfriend's here?
And I've broken the second rule.
You weren't supposed to pitchsomeone if their significant
other wasn't there.
And I said, well, I can't comeback tomorrow.
I I said because we're leavingto go to another town, which was
actually the truth.
(28:59):
That was the truth.
We were leaving the next day togo to another town, right, and
by the way, this was in a placewe might have heard of it in
heidelberg in germany.
So anyway, I'll go back to andI'll see my manager.
And he said, he said no oneever buys it the second day.
(29:19):
So anyway, the next morning wepack up, get in his car, right,
we just happened, either onpurpose or not, to go through
that village.
I was in the last evening and hesaid where's that guy that you
pitched last night?
And I said where's that guythat you pitched last night?
And I said over there he saidyou've got 20 minutes, I don't
(29:40):
know 20 minutes.
Half an hour later I walked outwith my first deposit.
His wife loved it and theybought it from me and I did that
job for 11 months and I earnedenough money to take me back to
Andorra for a second seasonwhere I didn't have to work and
(30:01):
it still paid for me to takemyself all the way from Andorra,
1300 miles away, to Scotlandwhere I took my very first ski
instructor exam which I managedto fluke, and it was the only
ski instruction exam I everpassed the first time.
So selling encyclopedias couldwork.
(30:22):
I mean young people these days,a lot of them probably don't
even know what an encyclopediais.
You know, with all theelectronic stuff now yeah that
was it back then, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Yeah, everyone had those set of encyclopedias in
their house.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
you know like that was yeah, so that was another
great instance of what if Idon't and what if I do.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I love that.
I love the the what if I do,what if I?
You know, what if I don't, whatif I do?
And the whole way, the way itchanges you, because even when
you were talking about what if Idon't, knock on the story, you
know I was even get kind ofnegative, feeling the negativity
.
And then when you change it towhat if I do, what if we, and it
just it does it changeseverything about you.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yeah, just change your outlook completely most of
the time, but of course youstill got to really want to do
it.
You know you got to really wantto do it.
I mean, you know my aim of youknow, for example, becoming a
ski instructor was kind of thething that dominated my mind for
years and to eventually becomea fully certified ski instructor
.
Again, you know, as I said,that first exam was the only one
(31:24):
I passed first time.
The second I have three grades.
The third grade it took methree attempts to pass that,
sorry.
The second grade the secondgrade took me three attempts to
pass that.
The top grade I failed thebritish one three times, three
times.
And they had a meeting about meand I knew it was all over after
(31:44):
I heard this and they said oneof them said chalky white will
never be fully certified becausehe's the wrong body shape,
meaning.
Meaning I've got bowed legs andin order to get skis on an edge
you need the skis to be flat.
Because I've got bowed legs,the edges of the skis are up in
(32:05):
the air and they wanted me toski my feet close together.
So kind of long story short, Iused what if I don't and what if
I do again?
And I said to myself, what if Idon't go to New Zealand and try
to take their exam?
So I bought myself an airticket to go all the way to New
(32:25):
Zealand on a wing and a prayerand kind of long story short, I
passed their exam first time andthat was because a trainer
there said to me if you getchalk, if you get your goddamn
feet open, you might be able toski.
So all of a sudden, I go fromthis to this now.
All of a sudden I got flat skisand my skiing basically took
(32:47):
off and I passed that exam.
That's, that's 41 years ago.
I passed that and I still workwith the same qualification
today.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
That's amazing.
I love that story and from thatcame you wrote a book that I
think is pretty popular, prettyprevalent ski instructor type
book.
Tell me about that book.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, eventually it sold about 10,000 copies.
It's not actually in printanymore, but you can still get
it on a Kindle.
It was called the Seven Secretsof Skiing, and how that came
about was I'd written a book andall the time writing the book I
thought the title was going tocome to me, the title was going
to come to me, the title wasgoing to come to me, but it
(33:27):
never did right.
But I've written the book and Iwas going to call it Skiing and
the Power of Balance right, andI was going to call it Skiing
and the Power of Balance, right.
So anyway, I was skiing inAspen, colorado, with a couple
of good skiers and we're goingup a chairlift and we start
talking about you know this bookI read and I told him what the
title was.
I said what's the title goingto be?
(33:48):
I said Skiing and the Power ofBalance.
And one of the guys said thatis so bleeping boring.
I said well, if you can come upwith something better, he said.
I said I'm all ears.
So anyway, I was skiing withhim again the next day and this
(34:15):
guy said got it.
He said why don't you call itthe Seven Secrets of S secrets
of skiing because there's sevensteps in the book, right?
I said yeah, that's right.
He said the seven secrets ofskiing.
I can't call that.
He said why not I?
And he said why not call itchalky whites the seven secrets
of skiing?
Because even if you're notfamous, people think you are
because you said it was ChalkyWhite's the Seven Secrets of
(34:37):
Skiing.
So that's what it got called.
I love it and even that, andI've been.
At that time I was a skiinstructor in Beaver Creek, you
know, in Colorado, next door toVail.
After I'd actually written thebook, I needed people to
demonstrate for me forphotographs of the book.
So I went, actually written thebook.
I needed people to demonstratefor me for photographs of the
book.
So I went to see the ski schooldirector and I said you know,
(35:01):
I'd like to.
You know, can I use a couple ofski instructors from the ski
school?
And he said yeah.
He said that's a great idea.
He said you can't be in.
So why is that?
He said because you don't scalewell enough.
I mean, I was absolutelyshattered by this.
I went what?
I'd have spent four yearswriting this damn book, you know
(35:22):
.
Anyway, I told a friend of mine,a very good friend of mine,
matt Dean, who every chapter I'dwritten, I'd put it past him
and say what do you think?
Do you think this is accurate?
What do you think of thecontent?
Every time he came back he saidno.
He said I think you'reabsolutely good.
He and I used to think aboutskiing in very much the same way
(35:42):
and I told him this story aboutthe ski and he said that's just
not true.
He said you certainly ski wellenough.
You've got to publish this book.
So anyway, I eventually foundmy own three ski instructors to
do the demonstrations along withme.
All three of them had beenworld synchronized skiing
(36:06):
champions, right?
So all brilliant demonstrators,right, we do the photographs.
And the lady that took thephotographs was also a ski
instructor examiner and shedidn't know about this thing.
That had happened with the skischool director and she said to
me you know, she said yourdemonstrations were just as good
as the other three and in factyour hand and arm carries, the
(36:30):
way you carry your hands andarms, was better than theirs.
So guess what?
The book got published andeventually it sold about 10,000
copies.
And you still sell some now,and that's 14 years ago.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
I love it because you were in it, your pictures were
in it with these otherinstructors, but after being
told that, no, you're not goodenough to have your own pictures
, your own demo pictures, inthere, I love that.
Such great stories.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
I also asked myself what if I don't?
What if I do questions, youknow?
And what if I don't?
Well, I thought, you know, Imight as well, what if I don't?
I might as well just throw themanuscript out the window, you
know.
And then what if I do this?
Yeah, you've got to do this,you know.
That's when I carried on andfound those instructors and all
that stuff and yeah, it's great.
(37:19):
Yeah, so that's been a prettygood success, you know, for a
ski book, because you knowyou've got a pretty limited
audience for a ski instructionbook.
You know, I mean my hope iswith the new book it would hit a
kind of a wider audience, youknow, because I mean, I mean
anybody can use these.
What if I don't?
What if I do questions?
Literally anybody, butparticularly people that have
(37:40):
got ambitions for the future.
People want to fulfill dreams,people that want to overcome
naysayers, because there's all,like we just said, there's all
kinds of naysayers out there.
I just told you about a coupleof them.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Yeah, no, I'm going to, I'm using this.
I'm going to use it.
I think that's very profound.
It's simple, but yet I love it.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
I hadn't heard it before and I'm excited to apply
it.
I just came across those purelyby accident.
Like I said, it was inadvertent.
I mean, obviously, thatquestion what if?
Has been around for years, butit's just the simple.
The nice thing about it is thesimplicity of it.
Anybody can use it.
You don't have to remember muchto do it.
You know, it's nothingcomplicated.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
You spoke about your other book and I can see it
sitting behind you there.
Keep Chewing the Granite.
It's a memoir, because itsounds like it talks.
You know, you talk about yourpolice career a little bit.
You probably talk about skiingas well.
What's it all about?
Why did you write this book?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
well, keep chewing the granite.
You might be wondering wherethat title came from.
Just before I told you about mefailing all the skiing
strategies and we're just beforemy third failure in scotland.
I was out on the snow with mytrainer, a very good friend of
mine, jimmy Smith.
This is the end of April and wewere only skiing at like 4,000,
(39:03):
4,500 feet, very low, but asyou know, scotland is very north
.
So this ski, this snow was justdeep, deep, nasty slush.
And Jimmy shouts out okay, ladsone ski off.
So now we're just having to skion one ski, going up and down a
drag lift, you know one thatpulls you up the hill, and I'd
(39:25):
never done this before and Imake one turn splat, one turn
splat, maybe next time two turnssplat and by this time I'm
soaked through from this slush,snow and I land literally at
Jimmy's feet and he looks downat me and he says in his
(39:45):
Scottish accent are you allright, choggy?
I said I think so, jimmy.
He said just keep chewing thegranite.
And by that he meant don't giveup.
And that saying stuck with meever since because I needed a
title for the book that wouldperhaps intrigue people a little
(40:07):
bit because I was going to callit the what If Factor.
I thought, you know it's kindof boring and that's why I
called it.
You know, keep chewing thegranite how two questions can
change your life.
There's already some reallygood reviews of it on Amazoncom
and you can get it on prettymuch on any Amazon site.
(40:31):
Really Quite, a few people havebought it.
There's some good five-starreviews on Amazon about it.
So yeah, and all these storiesI've been telling you, of course
they're all in the book, everyone of them.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Yeah, and a lot more detail and everything else.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Something I should tell you is the man that wrote
the foreword is a man you mighthave heard of called Howard
Lutnick.
He was the chairman and CEO of,and he became my ski client for
12 years.
And he became my ski client for12 years.
He's the chairman and CEO ofCantor Fitzgerald in New York
(41:12):
City in the Twin Towers, and helost the most 658 of his
employees and his brother andhis best friend on 9-11.
And he offered to write theforeword for the book for me and
he was my client for 12 years.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Wow, If I'm not mistaken because I have heard of
Howard Ludnick just because ofthat story If I'm not mistaken,
he was supposed to be there buthe ended up taking somebody to
school, or something like that,I think.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
I can't remember the exact story.
He took his eldest son, kyle,to school that morning,
otherwise he'd obviously been inthere too.
Yeah, yeah, amazing.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
How do you, how do you ever get over that?
But you know, I mean you.
You talk about an A typepersonality.
He's definitely A1, a1.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
I mean, can you imagine how many funerals?
Speaker 2 (42:11):
and all that stuff he went to and oh oh yeah,
unbelievable that many peoplegreat thing about him.
He he ended up reallysupporting the, the families of
you know, all the people thatdied and stuff you know raised
millions and millions of dollarsthrough his charity and stuff.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Good man so how long ago did this book come out,
Chalky?
Speaker 2 (42:26):
It first came out in January.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
So this is new and you're not a spring chicken
anymore.
You're in your 70s now, so thishas been kind of you're taking
your whole life.
What's it like puttingsomething together like that at
your age?
Speaker 2 (42:42):
It's like the ski book.
I needed something to occupy mymind and I just enjoy the act
of writing, apart from anythingelse.
So I decided to write a memoir.
And then somebody said well,all these stories, why don't you
try and put something togetherwhere it's actually going to
actually help people, give themsome kind of a solution?
(43:04):
And of course I've got this.
What if I don't?
What if I do?
Solution, and after everysingle story there's a different
way of how you might use thesolution.
Everybody that's read it so far, much like yourself, they think
it's a really good idea.
As I said, the simplicity of itis the simplicity of it because
(43:30):
anybody can use it at anymoment, at any time.
You can sit in there right now.
You or I could use it right nowif we wanted to about something
or other.
You could ask yourself what ifI don't put this guy Chalky
White's podcast out there?
I'm kidding, I hope you do, ofcourse well, that would
definitely be negative, right?
Speaker 1 (43:50):
I mean, yeah, I've got to go to the positive.
What if I do put his episodeout there, which I will?
Yeah, no, absolutely no, it's a, it's a, it's a funny way.
It's a funny way to say it.
But no, you're right, any, youcould apply that to to anything.
I think something else that'sthat I find unique about Chalky
is just your experiences.
You've gone through some reallytough things.
You know, being beaten, abusedby your dad could have put you
(44:14):
in a place that didn't turn outso well.
I mean, a lot of people don'tget over that, but you seem to
get over that.
And just the different failuresyou've had, you've gotten over
it.
Tell me, yeah, talk to me alittle bit about that.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Well, of course it never leaves you.
It never leaves you.
I mean, it's always going to bea memory.
But the part of it that's, youknow, always been the worst for
me was when I used to beat myspinally injured mother.
He'd get her in a corner andshe'd be cowering in the corner
and be beating her from behind.
You know, little me, like seven, eight years old at the time.
(44:48):
What was I going to do?
You know?
I just, you know, couldn't doanything.
In a way it's been a motivationfor me.
It's because I failed so much,if you like, when I was a
youngster, you know, completeand utter failure at school.
And another part of the reasonwhy certainly I wrote the first
(45:09):
book, the ski book, is because Ididn't go to college.
I thought, well, if I writethis book, it's kind of like
writing a thesis, you know,which I've never done.
Funnily enough, though, even atschool I even failed English
language, that subject but it'sthe subject that I'm really good
(45:33):
at.
Another irony is my worstsubject at school was probably
physics, and my ski book is allbased on simple physics.
There's no equations or any ofthat in it, but it's all based
that.
If you don't adhere to certainthings, to certain things, then
you're not going to ski verywell, you know.
(45:54):
So very weird, yeah.
So my best subjects I flunkedand the one that I was worst at
of all, I used it, you know, inthat ski book obviously.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
I know something else you've done and I love talking
with you because you're easy totalk to, you're lighthearted,
you laugh at yourself, you havea good time.
You have done some keynotespeaking.
What's kind of the plan withthat?
Are you looking to do some moreof that?
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Tell me a little bit about that.
I did two or three speeches toan organization called the Stout
Street Foundation, which was topeople that were there not
voluntarily but because theywere either drug recovering
addicts or alcoholics.
I've got a really good responsewith those people, and I did
(46:48):
one to a company down here aswell, a vacation-type company.
I did one as well, and thatseemed to go down pretty well
too.
I just need to now followthrough on that more and try and
get myself out there and tryand get some real engagements
and start hopefully getting paidfor it.
Know, because I mean, have youdone any of that yourself?
Speaker 1 (47:09):
I have not.
No, not public speaking likethat.
I have not.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
I'd like to you wouldn't be, we wouldn't be
running a podcast if youcouldn't speak, so might be what
could be a good opportunity foryou too, couldn't it?
you know, I mean yeah absolutelysome some good money to be made
from that.
And also I like to think, youknow, with the message I've got
I can genuinely help.
I mean, where would helpcompanies?
Most companies sell something,something or other, so they've
(47:35):
all got sales.
People Sales is probably thehardest thing for people to do
in any company.
That's why a lot of peopledon't want to sell.
They hate the thought of't wantto sell.
They just don't.
They hate the thought ofselling anything to anybody.
But they can use.
You know, for example, what if Idon't pick up the phone and
(47:57):
speak to this guy that I'mreally nervous of?
What would be the repercussionsof that for me and what will
happen?
What if I don't pick up thespeak phone to speak to anybody
ever again?
Well, the answer you get fromthat is well, I won't earn any
money, I won't be able to takemy, my family, on a vacation,
(48:19):
won't be able to buy a car, I'llhave no money.
But then you hate those answers.
You turn it around.
But what if I do pick up thephone and talk to this guy?
I really don't want to talk tohim.
You get those great answers.
You can then pick up the phoneand talk to him and you might
even end up making the sale ofthe year, you know.
(48:39):
So it's very useful, I think,for for people like that and
anybody that's got naysayers intheir life, and, of course, the
biggest naysayer of them all isourselves.
That is true, Because you know,I procrastinated in the police
force for nine years, alwayswanted out, but never had the
(49:00):
guts to do it until I askedmyself those two questions, and
on and on and on.
You know, like I said, the timeI failed was I failed big time
when I didn't use thosequestions.
So that was all about abusiness.
I was in business and I spenttoo much on real estate, and I
didn't.
I should have asked myself whatif I don't figure this out
(49:24):
first and know what the numbersare going to be exactly before I
take the plunge.
I didn't do it.
As a result, I'd run thisbusiness for eight years and I
had to leave, I had to quit, butthe good news was I eventually
ended up in America and, asyou've heard, you know, I'm now
(49:45):
happily married to an Americanlady.
I've been for 23 years, lynn.
So so yeah, and my hope is thatthrough through this podcast
and hopefully I'm I want to beon others as well, if I can and
and even get on talk shows, if Ican and and keep putting the
message out there because Ithink, you know, it's a great
message to give and as we keepcoming back to easy and simple.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
It's a great message and I appreciate you sharing it
here and we've been, we've beenchatting for a while.
Just a couple of things to wrapup.
For me, journey with Jake it'scut, it's evolved, it's you know
, it started off it's going tobe just a travel podcast, and
now it's gotten more people'sexperiences and adventures and
things like that.
So for you, I like to ask thisquestion to everybody.
So for you, chalky, what doesadventure mean to you?
Speaker 2 (50:33):
It's always meant travel, always.
You know, part of the reason Iwanted to get out of the police
was because I wanted to travelmore, and ski instruction has
helped me to do that, becauseit's helped me to live in 11
different countries, I mean,even as a summer job.
I worked in morocco, would youbelieve, as a discotheque
(50:55):
manager for a summer job,because that's the other thing.
Being a ski instructor is, ifyou do one season a year, like
in the Northern Hemisphere,you're unemployed for the other
six months of the year.
You've got to keep findingdifferent things to do.
Hence why, you know, I sold,first of all, the encyclopedias,
(51:17):
worked in and run thatdiscotheque and all that kind of
stuff.
I even drove a truck for asummer.
You know all kinds of thingsthat I've done.
But adventure, I mean, I took mywife back in 2004 and we went
walking all up around everestand we were out there for we're
(51:38):
out walking for two weeks with aguide, you know, and living
what they call tea houses, youknow, and uh, where and where
the walls are just made of thinplywood, you know you could hear
what was going on next door.
So you know things like thatand like, next month we're going
to Italy, you know, and we'redoing a road trip.
We're going to do a road tripup through Florence and then to
(52:01):
Venice, and we're going to spenddays in the Dolomites and then
the Italian lakes down to Pisa,because I've always had a
leaning towards that place.
Excuse my sorry about that.
I love it.
So, yeah, I loved it.
And you know, still in my mindit's something I haven't done.
(52:23):
Which I still really, reallywant to do is go on a safari in
Africa just to see the animals.
That would be amazing Not tohunt no interest in hunting,
just to see.
I'd love to see all that.
I've never spent any time in,you know, south of the Sahara,
so it's one place I want to goand also another place I want to
go.
And also another place that Iwant to go on my bucket list is
(52:46):
the Galapagos islands.
See all those creatures there.
I would love to go and do that.
Yeah, so yeah, travel is stillvery, very big in my life, no
doubt.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
Thank you for sharing that.
That was wonderful.
I don't maybe I'm making thisup, but I thought I read
somewhere that you would finishyour speeches by singing
something.
Is that true or no?
Speaker 2 (53:06):
Yeah, I can sing.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
Can we do that for to end journey with Jake, with
with Chalky?
Could would you mind give us alittle little song to end this
out?
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Well, obviously it's going to be acapella.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
That's fine, no worries.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
I'm going to sing this song because it is.
I see trees of green, red rosestoo.
I see them bloom for me and youand I think to myself what a
(53:42):
wonderful world.
What a wonderful world.
I see skies of blue and cloudsof white and the bright, blessed
days and the dark, sacrednights and I think to myself
what a wonderful world.
(54:03):
That's it, basically.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
I love it, Chalky.
Thank you so much for coming onJourney with Jake.
Speaker 2 (54:08):
I mean, I've probably put everybody completely off by
singing that.
Speaker 1 (54:11):
but that was wonderful.
Thank you so much.
That's going to wrap up myconversation with Burnett Chalky
White.
I'll just say, chalky, be sureto check out his book Keep
Chewing the Granite how TwoQuestions Can Change your Life.
You can find it on Amazon andI'll include a link right here
in the show notes for you Beforewe sign off.
(54:32):
How's everyone doing?
I'd really love to hear fromyou, whether it's through
Instagram, atjourneywithjakepodcast, or just
send me an email directly tojake at journeywithjakenet.
I always enjoy connecting withyou and hearing about your own
adventures.
And don't forget, the nextepisode is just a few days away.
That's right, we're still inOctober, so that's two episodes
a week.
(54:53):
It features a past guest ofmine, jamie Edwards.
In our first chat, jamie and Italked about her adventures in
Antarctica, but this time we'reheading north, way up to the
Arctic Circle.
You won't want to miss it.
Thanks again for listening.
Until next time.
Just remember, it's not alwaysabout the destination as it is
about the journey.
Take care everybody.
What if I don't?
What if I do?
Those two questions changedeverything for Bernad Chalky
White, from a violent childhoodto the front lines as a police
officer and eventually to thesnowy peaks as a ski instructor
and author.
Chalky's journey is all aboutresilience, risk and the courage
to take the leap.
Welcome to Journey with Jake.
(00:20):
This is a podcast aboutadventure and how, through our
adventures, we can overcome thechallenges of life that come our
way.
While I expect you will learnsome things about different
adventures, this show willentertain you.
Each episode will feature adifferent guest or guests, as
they share experiences andstories from the different
adventures they have been on.
Not only will you beentertained, but you will also
(00:42):
hear the failures and trialseach guest faces and what they
have done or are doing toovercome the hardships that come
their way.
My goal is to take each of uson a journey through the
experiences of my guests, withthe hope that you'll be
entertained and inspired toovercome your day-to-day
challenges.
After all, it's not all aboutthe destination as it is about
(01:05):
the journey.
Hey, everyone, welcome back toJourney with Jake.
Before we jump in, make sureyou're subscribed so you don't
miss an episode.
You can also catch the show onYouTube and if you want to see a
(01:30):
little more of the personalside of my life, come hang out
with me on Instagram atjourneywithjakepodcast.
Today I'm joined by BernardChalky-White.
Now in the UK they pronounce itBurn-Ed.
I think Burn-Ed Well, I tend tosay Bernard, but however you
say it, his story isunforgettable From a tough
childhood and years as a Londonpolice officer to reinventing
himself as a ski instructor,author and speaker.
(01:50):
Chalky shows what resilience,big questions and a love
adventure can lead to.
And if you like this one, Ithink you'll also enjoy episode
31 with Dave Kahananui, where wetalk about his Hawaiian roots
and his experience going back tohis roots on a rare trip to the
islands.
Okay, let's get to myconversation with Chalky White.
(02:11):
All right, I'm excited todayI've got Bernard Chalky White on
the call with me today.
Chalky, welcome to Journey withJake.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Great to speak with you and I really appreciate the
invitation.
By the way, my first name,which I only really use for
business, is not pronouncedBernard.
It's pronounced Bernard,bernard, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Does everybody say Bernard?
Does everyone mess it up andsay Bernard, or am I just a
screw-up?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
on names.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
All right, my Aussie buddy, rick Bamford, would be so
proud of me right now.
Well, he wouldn't be proud,he'd be like typical.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Jake, it doesn't bother me, I'm just letting you
know I don't care really.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Okay, say it again Burn it, burn it how do you say
it, burn it, burn it.
Burn it.
I'm going to call you.
I'm just going to call you.
Chalky Does that work.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
The only thing I use Burn Bernard for is on business
stuff.
Otherwise I'm universally knownas Chalky.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Perfect, you're signing your life away with
Bernard.
I can't even.
That's right, chalky.
I'm just going to say Chalky,we'll just stick with Chalky,
all right?
Since you brought it up, sincewe brought up Chalky, my first
question where did Chalky comefrom?
How did you come up with that?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
When I was 16, I'd just left school, after getting
zero qualifications, I might addI joined the police cadets the
Kent police cadets, just southof London and the first morning
that I was there we had to showup in the gym in the clothing
that you'd use for gymnasticsand stuff, and the drill
(03:42):
sergeant comes in with a know,with a stick under his arm, and
he's going around and askingeverybody their names, and I
won't use the vernacular.
But he said something likewhat's your bleep, bleep name?
And I said white sir.
And he said because all theother guys I've just joined with
are all there, right, and heannounced lads.
(04:04):
He said we've got a Chalky, aChalky White.
And I've been stuck with thatsince 1964, would you believe?
Yeah, and it's been useful downthe years, because even in the
ski business people don't evenknow what my last name is.
They just go in the ski schooland ask for Chalky.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
I'm looking for Chalky.
It's funny.
So your last name, white, andthat's how he came up with it.
Yeah, exactly, chalky.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
White, chalky's White .
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Chalky.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
White, that's exactly right yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
And then it stuck with you.
I don't know if you know now,but there is a chalky white on
it.
I think it was boardwalk empire.
I'm very aware I don't know ifyou knew that around a lot
longer than him.
I'm sorry to say yeah, so Ijust I that came up too because
I think when I googled you I waslike, oh, chalky white from
boardwalk empire, from hbo.
(04:57):
Anyway, beside the point, thankyou for sharing that.
I thought that would be a fun,kind of a fun way to start
things off.
Usually what I have people dois kind of give it a little
background.
You kind of alluded to it alittle bit.
You said 16 years old.
God, you went to the policecadets at 16.
High school.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
No, sounds like you failed high school school.
A lot of that was because of myfather.
He was a very violent man.
He not only used to beat me ona regular basis, he also used to
beat my mother, which I'venever, obviously.
I've never been able to forgivehim for that.
Forgive him what he did to me,but not to my mother.
(05:36):
Anyway, when I was 13, you know,we would every semester, what
we call every term we'd have totake a school report home and
whether it was good, bad orindifferent, indifferent he
still beat me right.
So I got to the age of 13 andkids logic I thought, yeah, he's
gonna beat me anyway, so whybother doing anything at all?
So I completely and utterlyquit, quit all school work when
(05:58):
I was 13 and just used todisrupt the class and all this
stuff.
You know, and I'll get.
I'd get to 16 and you know myold man, my father, said well,
what are you going to do nowthen?
So I didn't have a clue, butactually it was his idea that I
joined the police cadets.
I managed to somehow fluke myway through their entrance exam
and I got into the police cadetswhen I was 16.
(06:18):
And then I joined.
I did that for two years andthen at 19, I became a
fully-fledged police officer, ABobby, you know, you've heard of
the Bobbies.
A Bobby, yeah, but a Bobbytechnically actually is only in
London.
But I eventually transferred tothe Metropolitan London Police
anyway and became a true Bobby.
I've still got the hat,actually, Wow.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I've still got the hat, do you really?
Okay, that's what I picturewhen I hear people saying the
bobby's is that hat?
Oh, look at that.
So for those of you watching onyoutube, he's got the hat right
here.
When you picture it, you know,when you think of the bobby
police, london police, that'sexactly what you, that's exactly
what I picture and the otherthing is look there it is this.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
We didn't have guns, of course, this was.
The only weapon we had was thisstick.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
You just carried that little billy club.
Yeah, that little stick.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
The real name for it is a truncheon and that goes
back to 1969.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
Thank you for sharing that.
That makes this fun.
So yeah, for my listeners whoare just listening audio sorry
you can't see it for those ofyou watching on youtube, you can
get the full, the full taste ofwhat that is.
So you're, you're from england,london area family besides your
(07:36):
parents and you had a dad whowas very abusive.
Did you have any siblings oranything like that?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
half brother that didn't talk to me.
He hadn't talked to me since1983, and actually about two
months ago he died.
But you know I wasn't so sorryabout it because he hadn't
spoken to me.
We had an argument overbusiness and, you know, for some
reason he never wanted to, buthis kids always stayed in
contact with him, which is kindof weird, yeah, and I'm back in
(08:02):
contact with them again now.
Yeah, I'm now also anaturalized American.
I became an American about 16years ago, but I still have the
British passport too.
I have both.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Very good, All right, so you've got both passports.
That's awesome.
Both citizenships from bothplaces.
That's great.
Growing up in an abusivehousehold like that, I've never
been in a situation like that.
What's that like.
Knowing that you're, you knowthe chance of getting beat is
really high.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Like what's that like mentally for you and as a kid?
Well, obviously you're in fearall the time.
You know, I remember one onebeating where he was accusing me
of lying about something and Ihadn't, and he just kept beating
me and beating me and beatingme until he wanted me to admit
(08:49):
that I'd been lying and I never,ever gave in to him.
I just didn't give in to him,you know, and of course it
definitely like I said, you knowI completely flunked school.
Obviously I didn't go tocollege because I didn't have
any qualifications to go tocollege.
The college I went toeventually, of course, was when
I was 19.
(09:09):
I joined the police.
I went to police trainingschool, police training college,
yeah, you know, studying lawand stuff, place called Nutfield
in Surrey in England.
And then I was a policeman forum in Kent, in the Kent County
of Kent, just south of London,for almost three years and then
I transferred to theMetropolitan Police and some of
(09:30):
the most incredible thingshappened to me when I was
actually in Kent.
I mean, I actually was thewitness to a very gruesome
murder when I was in Kent.
I mean, I can tell you a littleabout it.
It's in my book.
I can tell you a little moreabout that if's in my book.
I can tell you a little moreabout that if you'd like me to.
It's not a very cheerful story.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
No, I guess not.
You know, witnessing a murder.
I think you were almost killeda few times yourself Twice, but
I also think you had some twice,wow.
And I also think you had anamazing where you saved a baby
or an infant or something likethat as well.
Yeah, if you don't mind, kindof give me tell us a little bit
about the murder that youwitnessed, and then maybe some
of the better parts of it,because it sounds like it was
(10:11):
tough for you.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Well, I'll give you a pretty brief explanation of it
because, for time reasons,obviously.
So this would have been October1968.
And I was in a town calledChatham, in Kent, chatham's
famous, for he built the ship,the Victory.
You might have heard of AdmiralNelson, you've heard of
(10:36):
Trafalgar Square in London.
Well, his statue is inTrafalgar Square.
That's where they built hisship.
That's what it was reallyfamous for.
Anyway, 9 o'clock in the morning, I was on early shift, been
working since 6 am, and I'm justdriving back into the police
yard to go and get some food anda call comes out attempted
(10:56):
suicide.
So I just drive up there atjust normal pace, not hurrying
up, because I knew apparentlythere were ambulance guys
already there.
So I get there and I get to thebottom of the stairs to this
block of apartments and there'stwo ambulance guys standing
there with a stretcher, with aman on it, and I said what's the
(11:19):
problem with him?
And they put the stretcher downand they said don't worry about
him, come with us.
We go up the stairs, turn right, turn right again into into an
apartment.
And these apartments were a bitpeculiar because they had an
upstairs and a downstairs, eventhough they're apartments and we
, we go in.
We go in there and we turnright into the kitchen and what?
(11:43):
What I saw?
I knew it couldn't be good.
There was a red hospital-typeblanket covering something with
a pair of small feet stickingout of the end.
One of them said you're notgoing to like this, but I'm
going to show you anyway.
He pulls back the blanket andunderneath it is a 12 year old
(12:06):
girl, dead, with her intestinesliterally laying on the floor
beside her.
So what was the story behind allthat?
Well, the man on the stretcheroh, before I go into that, I
called for help and half theKent police detectives came.
(12:27):
While I'm waiting, I went intothe front room.
There's a woman sitting thereand she's sitting there drinking
nine o'clock in the morningdrinking a glass of scotch
whiskey.
I said what do you know aboutthat in the kitchen?
And she said she just shruggedher shoulders.
I said right, you're underarrest on suspicion of murder.
(12:48):
So the detectives arrived andthey took her away.
And what had actually happened,very briefly, was that the man
and the woman were husband andwife.
He was the janitor of a blockof apartments and they'd been
photographed.
(13:09):
This girl lived on the samecommunal landing as they did,
and every day she would go walkup and down, going back and
forwards to school, and theywould take photographs of her,
by the way, in the kitchen.
When, when I saw first saw herbody on over the sink area was a
black drape over the kitchenwith a couple of black candles,
and they'd become veryinterested in black magic and
(13:32):
they decided that they wanted tosacrifice a virgin for black
magic reasons.
Kind of a long story short.
The man on the stretcher wastaken to hospital.
A friend of mine was sent tothe hospital a detective and he
asked where he was.
They said well, he's in theoperating theatre, so he goes
down there.
(13:52):
And in the end he couldn'tstand it.
So he walked in into theoperating theatre where he's
being operated on.
He said do you know what thatguy's done?
And they said no.
So he explained and all of asudden the operating theater
emptied and the guy died.
I think in certain circles Icall that summary justice.
(14:14):
And the woman, his wife,eventually went to to court to
what they used to call beingback in the day Kent Assizes
called it Crown Court these daysand she was put on trial and
asked whether she would pleadguilty or not guilty to murder.
(14:34):
She pleaded not guilty tomurder, but her counsel, her
lawyer, said she will pleadguilty to manslaughter.
The judge accepted the plea formanslaughter, which means the
killing of a human being by ahuman being without malice of
force.
Or there's plenty of malice inthat.
He gave her three years.
(14:56):
Three years, that's all she gotfor that and she was out in two
years for good behavior.
The father of the girlthreatened all that time to kill
her, but I don't think he everdid it.
So in my book that's a storycalled Justice, not Done, not
Even Close, and when I gotmurdered just very briefly, I
(15:18):
nearly got I think it wasn'tmurdered because I'm sitting-
here, when I was almost murderedonce was by strangulation, when
a guy was laying on top of mewith his hands around my throat
throttling me, and actually withthis stick that I just showed
you, I had to hit him on thehead 10 times before he let go
(15:40):
and the officer I was withdidn't step in to pull him off,
which wasn't good, obviously.
And the other time I was in akitchen, a domestic dispute
where a guy kept attacking hiswife.
I said if you attack her oncemore, I'm going to arrest you,
because back in the day what weused to try and do was domestic
(16:01):
disputes.
We used to try and do it act ina way to get them to settle it
between themselves, rather thanarrest people.
But I said to him if you touchher again, I'm going to arrest
you.
There was another guy with me.
He attacked her again and outof nowhere he grabbed a big
(16:22):
carving knife and he comesstraight at me and I fell over
on my back and the carving knifewas literally there and somehow
I managed to push him off.
And again I couldn't believe it.
The guy the other officer withme didn't try and step in.
His words to me were well, youlook like you were doing okay on
(16:44):
your own.
I refused to ever work with himagain.
Refused said no, never, evergoing to work with him again.
And I didn't, you know, and hewas actually, apart from being a
colleague, he was also a friendof mine.
You know, a bit of chicken, youknow.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Unbelievable.
A bit of chicken.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
I mean, what I knew was back in the day, no matter
how scared you got, you didn'trun away.
You just did not.
You could not, no, and I'dcertainly never did myself.
You know I've been in somepretty iffy situations.
Other than that, the thing isabout being a British cop.
You know you can't stand therewith a gun and say, if you come
any closer I'm going to shootyou.
(17:20):
You can't do that.
So everything has to be upclose and personal to arrest
someone.
Got to get close to them to doit.
How else are you going to do it?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
You can't you know, yeah, yeah, wow, what an
experience.
How long were you a policemanfor?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Almost three years a cadet.
Sorry, two years a cadet.
Three years in the kent policeand then six years in the
metropolitan police.
So nine, nine years altogetheras an actual policeman.
You know, the reason I wentinto it is because I couldn't
find anything better to do atthe time.
So I never, I never reallywanted to be a cop, although I
think I was a pretty good copbecause I always, I always tried
to do the job.
You know, even though I despiseit and I always wanted out in
the do the job, you know, eventhough I despise it and I always
wanted out In the book, youknow two questions that can
(18:09):
change your life.
That's where I first came upwith those questions to get me
out of the police.
I can tell you about that ifand when you want me to.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yeah, no, we'll talk about the book here in a little
bit.
But I know you know after theand you didn't want to be in the
police department necessarily,you like you said you just it
was something for you to do.
You didn't know what else to do, so you did that.
When you got out of the police,I know you got into skiing.
Were you?
Were you always interested inskiing, or is that later in life
, like, how did you pick upskiing and why?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
what happened was I?
Eventually I left the police in1975.
But in very late 1973, I wasasked one of the most important
questions of my life.
I've never skied before and afriend of mine walked in and he
said hey, chalky, you want to goon a ski trip?
Well, I've basically been on aski trip ever since.
That was 1975, as I said.
(19:03):
So I went on that ski trip tripand then I went on one the
following year and I and I sawall these guys in a place called
andora you might have heard ofa little country in the pyrenees
mountains just north ofbarcelona in spain, where at
that time you could buy a bottleof scotch whiskey for like a
buck and a half.
So it was good fun, that placefor sure.
(19:23):
But when I got there I saw allthese guys.
They were working on ski lifts,they were working on bars, some
of them were even skiinstructors.
And I'm thinking to myself man,I wonder if I could do some of
that.
And of course, in my book youknow the two questions.
That's when I did.
I came up inadvertently withthe two questions what if I
(19:45):
don't and what if I do?
And those two questions werewhat got me out of the police.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
So again, tell me those two questions again,
because those are very good,those are good questions.
I haven't really thought ofthose before.
What if tell me yes, tell meagain what those questions are?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Is by asking a negative first and a positive
second, you get an emotionchange.
Change of emotion Like what ifI don't leave the police force
and go back to Andorra and tryto follow my dreams and even
eventually try and become a skiinstructor?
(20:23):
What would be the repercussionsof that for me if I'd done it?
Of course the answers you comeup with are awful.
You hate them.
But then you say to yourselfright, but what if I do go and
do all those things?
What can happen to me then?
Maybe I could eventually becomea ski instructor?
(20:46):
And of course you get that bigemotion change right from being
kind of done like that to beingpretty elated.
Well, the very next day, afterthe very first time I'd ever
asked those questions to myself,the very next day, I resigned
my post in the police force,never to return, 10th of August
(21:08):
1975.
I left the police in 10th ofAugust.
In October, myself and my bestold friend Russ Sinton, we took
off in an old VW van down toAndorra and that's where I
became a ski, became a ski bum.
Yeah, there's a lot more to thestory, obviously.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah but I love, I love those questions.
What if I don't kind of startwith a negative, and then what
if I do go to a positive?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
you get that you can do that with anything important
thing is is you get that changeof emotion.
That change of emotion, yeah,I've got to do this and it kind
of makes you want to do it.
And I've used them many, manytimes down the years to
naysayers, to third partynaysayers I mean there's many
stories I can tell you aboutthat kind of thing.
(21:57):
And when did things tend to gowrong for me?
When I didn't use thosequestions.
That's when it went wrong.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
I think one of the things I read about you was you
became a ski bum, but you alsowanted to become an instructor
and I think you failed at that.
I think you had naysayerstelling you you weren't going to
be able to be an instructor.
Tell me a little bit about thatexperience.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
So that very first season, the 1975-76 ski season
in Andorra, about halfwaythrough the season, my skiing
has started to improve some, butit certainly wasn't, by any
stretch of the imagination,great.
And I was already.
I was already, uh, 28 at thattime, so I wasn't, wasn't a kid
anymore.
Right halfway through theseason there's a bunch of ski.
So I've got to know a lot ofski instructors and a bunch of
(22:41):
them in a bar and very stupid, Isuppose.
I announced I'm going to tryand be a ski instructor and one
of these guys shouts out Chalky,you'll never be a ski
instructor as long as you've gota hole where the sun doesn't
shine.
If you get my drift, if you getmy drift.
(23:07):
And that was another occasionwhere eventually I would ask
myself what if I don't?
What if I do, what if I don't?
Really keep trying.
You know, keep trying.
And after that first ski seasonI went down to Greece and I was
a beach bum on an island calledSkiasos in Greece.
(23:28):
Right, I had a wonderful time.
But I got back from there and Ihad no money whatsoever and I
knew that I couldn't go backstraight back to andorra because
I didn't have any, didn't haveany money.
Right, I started applying, Ifound jobs in in the newspaper
and I eventually found this joband I I knew I didn't want to
(23:49):
work in in britain.
I decided I wasn't going towork in Britain.
Eventually this job came up andit said supplying educational
materials to the United Statesmilitary in West Germany, go to
this hotel for an interview.
So I go to the Russell Hotel inRussell Square in London and I
(24:15):
go into this great big room andthere must have been 100 people
sitting there.
I thought what's going on here?
You know, eventually a guycomes out onto the stage and he
starts producing all these broadsheets with writing and
pictures and all that.
And I looked around andsuddenly there's all these
people disappearing like ratsleaving a sinking ship.
(24:37):
And eventually I realized whatthe job was was selling
encyclopedias door to door inWest Germany to the United
States military, people that theUnited States military that
were living out on the germaneconomy, not on the basis.
So of course you know I'll gohome and I'll tell my father
(24:59):
about this job because I just Iwas probably going to do it.
And of course he was thebiggest naysayer I've ever had
in my life and he said oh,nobody ever makes any money
doing that.
But I went anyway.
So this guy interviewed meafterwards.
The guy was on the stage and hesaid buy yourself an air ticket
, he said, to West Germany, toFrankfurt, he said.
(25:21):
And then come to the Miner'sShelf Hotel, he said when you
get there, he said, every pennyyou've spent to get there, he
said, I'll reimburse you.
Out of the 100 people that werein that room to start with, only
four of us showed up at thehotel for the training.
By halfway through the weekthere were only two of us.
(25:42):
After the four days of trainingwe were both sent out on teams
to different teams.
In the afternoon, when I gotthere, my new manager told me
the other guys left as well.
So out of a hundred people Iwas now the only one that was
still going to do the job.
But even then I was taken to alittle cold, nasty village in
(26:05):
west germany, because by nowit's october, so it's already
getting pretty cold right andI'm dropped off.
I'm sitting on the groundthinking am I really going to do
this?
And I must have sat there for30 minutes, 45 minutes.
We only had four hours right.
Eventually I said to myselfwhat if I don't go and knock on
(26:30):
that door?
What's going to be therepercussions of that for me?
What if I don't ever knock on adoor?
What's going to be therepercussions of that for me?
What if I don't ever knock on adoor and run through my mind,
I'll have to go and tell myfather I failed, which was to me
the worst thing that I couldpossibly ever have.
And then I ask myself but whatif I do?
(26:51):
What if I do go and do it?
Well, I might make the sale ofthe year.
I might sell lots and lots ofbooks.
I'll make loads of moneybecause they're going to pay me
$105.
This is 1976, remember $105American dollars every time I
sell one, right?
(27:12):
What if I do sell a load ofbooks?
I got up.
The emotion change had happened.
I went and knocked on the door.
Young fella comes to the door.
He says yeah, what do you need?
And I said and they taught us tosay this oh, I didn't use chalk
(27:34):
, because no one first, mostpeople don't understand steps.
I use my real name and I usethe American version.
Oh, hi, my name's Bernard fromEngland.
And while I'm here in Germany,I'd also like to visit an
American family.
Would I be welcome in your home.
Come on in, bernard, so I'llget in there and start giving
(27:57):
him.
You know the spiel, you knowthat that.
We know the sales spiel thatwe've been taught to give.
You know, but before that therewere two, two rules.
One was that you didn't try tosell to the guy.
If you saw, saw some uh, bookssitting in the corner, and I'll
get in there, and there's thisset of books sitting in the
(28:17):
corner, I thought oh no, and Ithought I need to practice
anyway.
So I gave him the spiel and itprobably it's supposed to take
45 minutes.
It took me about an hour and ahalf his first time writing it.
And he said, bernard, he said Ithink the books are wonderful.
(28:38):
He said, but can you come backwhen my girlfriend's here?
And I've broken the second rule.
You weren't supposed to pitchsomeone if their significant
other wasn't there.
And I said, well, I can't comeback tomorrow.
I I said because we're leavingto go to another town, which was
actually the truth.
(28:59):
That was the truth.
We were leaving the next day togo to another town, right, and
by the way, this was in a placewe might have heard of it in
heidelberg in germany.
So anyway, I'll go back to andI'll see my manager.
And he said, he said no oneever buys it the second day.
(29:19):
So anyway, the next morning wepack up, get in his car, right,
we just happened, either onpurpose or not, to go through
that village.
I was in the last evening and hesaid where's that guy that you
pitched last night?
And I said where's that guythat you pitched last night?
And I said over there he saidyou've got 20 minutes, I don't
(29:40):
know 20 minutes.
Half an hour later I walked outwith my first deposit.
His wife loved it and theybought it from me and I did that
job for 11 months and I earnedenough money to take me back to
Andorra for a second seasonwhere I didn't have to work and
(30:01):
it still paid for me to takemyself all the way from Andorra,
1300 miles away, to Scotlandwhere I took my very first ski
instructor exam which I managedto fluke, and it was the only
ski instruction exam I everpassed the first time.
So selling encyclopedias couldwork.
(30:22):
I mean young people these days,a lot of them probably don't
even know what an encyclopediais.
You know, with all theelectronic stuff now yeah that
was it back then, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Yeah, everyone had those set of encyclopedias in
their house.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
you know like that was yeah, so that was another
great instance of what if Idon't and what if I do.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I love that.
I love the the what if I do,what if I?
You know, what if I don't, whatif I do?
And the whole way, the way itchanges you, because even when
you were talking about what if Idon't, knock on the story, you
know I was even get kind ofnegative, feeling the negativity
.
And then when you change it towhat if I do, what if we, and it
just it does it changeseverything about you.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yeah, just change your outlook completely most of
the time, but of course youstill got to really want to do
it.
You know you got to really wantto do it.
I mean, you know my aim of youknow, for example, becoming a
ski instructor was kind of thething that dominated my mind for
years and to eventually becomea fully certified ski instructor
.
Again, you know, as I said,that first exam was the only one
(31:24):
I passed first time.
The second I have three grades.
The third grade it took methree attempts to pass that,
sorry.
The second grade the secondgrade took me three attempts to
pass that.
The top grade I failed thebritish one three times, three
times.
And they had a meeting about meand I knew it was all over after
(31:44):
I heard this and they said oneof them said chalky white will
never be fully certified becausehe's the wrong body shape,
meaning.
Meaning I've got bowed legs andin order to get skis on an edge
you need the skis to be flat.
Because I've got bowed legs,the edges of the skis are up in
(32:05):
the air and they wanted me toski my feet close together.
So kind of long story short, Iused what if I don't and what if
I do again?
And I said to myself, what if Idon't go to New Zealand and try
to take their exam?
So I bought myself an airticket to go all the way to New
(32:25):
Zealand on a wing and a prayerand kind of long story short, I
passed their exam first time andthat was because a trainer
there said to me if you getchalk, if you get your goddamn
feet open, you might be able toski.
So all of a sudden, I go fromthis to this now.
All of a sudden I got flat skisand my skiing basically took
(32:47):
off and I passed that exam.
That's, that's 41 years ago.
I passed that and I still workwith the same qualification
today.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
That's amazing.
I love that story and from thatcame you wrote a book that I
think is pretty popular, prettyprevalent ski instructor type
book.
Tell me about that book.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, eventually it sold about 10,000 copies.
It's not actually in printanymore, but you can still get
it on a Kindle.
It was called the Seven Secretsof Skiing, and how that came
about was I'd written a book andall the time writing the book I
thought the title was going tocome to me, the title was going
to come to me, the title wasgoing to come to me, but it
(33:27):
never did right.
But I've written the book and Iwas going to call it Skiing and
the Power of Balance right, andI was going to call it Skiing
and the Power of Balance, right.
So anyway, I was skiing inAspen, colorado, with a couple
of good skiers and we're goingup a chairlift and we start
talking about you know this bookI read and I told him what the
title was.
I said what's the title goingto be?
(33:48):
I said Skiing and the Power ofBalance.
And one of the guys said thatis so bleeping boring.
I said well, if you can come upwith something better, he said.
I said I'm all ears.
So anyway, I was skiing withhim again the next day and this
(34:15):
guy said got it.
He said why don't you call itthe Seven Secrets of S secrets
of skiing because there's sevensteps in the book, right?
I said yeah, that's right.
He said the seven secrets ofskiing.
I can't call that.
He said why not I?
And he said why not call itchalky whites the seven secrets
of skiing?
Because even if you're notfamous, people think you are
because you said it was ChalkyWhite's the Seven Secrets of
(34:37):
Skiing.
So that's what it got called.
I love it and even that, andI've been.
At that time I was a skiinstructor in Beaver Creek, you
know, in Colorado, next door toVail.
After I'd actually written thebook, I needed people to
demonstrate for me forphotographs of the book.
So I went, actually written thebook.
I needed people to demonstratefor me for photographs of the
book.
So I went to see the ski schooldirector and I said you know,
(35:01):
I'd like to.
You know, can I use a couple ofski instructors from the ski
school?
And he said yeah.
He said that's a great idea.
He said you can't be in.
So why is that?
He said because you don't scalewell enough.
I mean, I was absolutelyshattered by this.
I went what?
I'd have spent four yearswriting this damn book, you know
(35:22):
.
Anyway, I told a friend of mine,a very good friend of mine,
matt Dean, who every chapter I'dwritten, I'd put it past him
and say what do you think?
Do you think this is accurate?
What do you think of thecontent?
Every time he came back he saidno.
He said I think you'reabsolutely good.
He and I used to think aboutskiing in very much the same way
(35:42):
and I told him this story aboutthe ski and he said that's just
not true.
He said you certainly ski wellenough.
You've got to publish this book.
So anyway, I eventually foundmy own three ski instructors to
do the demonstrations along withme.
All three of them had beenworld synchronized skiing
(36:06):
champions, right?
So all brilliant demonstrators,right, we do the photographs.
And the lady that took thephotographs was also a ski
instructor examiner and shedidn't know about this thing.
That had happened with the skischool director and she said to
me you know, she said yourdemonstrations were just as good
as the other three and in factyour hand and arm carries, the
(36:30):
way you carry your hands andarms, was better than theirs.
So guess what?
The book got published andeventually it sold about 10,000
copies.
And you still sell some now,and that's 14 years ago.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
I love it because you were in it, your pictures were
in it with these otherinstructors, but after being
told that, no, you're not goodenough to have your own pictures
, your own demo pictures, inthere, I love that.
Such great stories.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
I also asked myself what if I don't?
What if I do questions, youknow?
And what if I don't?
Well, I thought, you know, Imight as well, what if I don't?
I might as well just throw themanuscript out the window, you
know.
And then what if I do this?
Yeah, you've got to do this,you know.
That's when I carried on andfound those instructors and all
that stuff and yeah, it's great.
(37:19):
Yeah, so that's been a prettygood success, you know, for a
ski book, because you knowyou've got a pretty limited
audience for a ski instructionbook.
You know, I mean my hope iswith the new book it would hit a
kind of a wider audience, youknow, because I mean, I mean
anybody can use these.
What if I don't?
What if I do questions?
Literally anybody, butparticularly people that have
(37:40):
got ambitions for the future.
People want to fulfill dreams,people that want to overcome
naysayers, because there's all,like we just said, there's all
kinds of naysayers out there.
I just told you about a coupleof them.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Yeah, no, I'm going to, I'm using this.
I'm going to use it.
I think that's very profound.
It's simple, but yet I love it.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
I hadn't heard it before and I'm excited to apply
it.
I just came across those purelyby accident.
Like I said, it was inadvertent.
I mean, obviously, thatquestion what if?
Has been around for years, butit's just the simple.
The nice thing about it is thesimplicity of it.
Anybody can use it.
You don't have to remember muchto do it.
You know, it's nothingcomplicated.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
You spoke about your other book and I can see it
sitting behind you there.
Keep Chewing the Granite.
It's a memoir, because itsounds like it talks.
You know, you talk about yourpolice career a little bit.
You probably talk about skiingas well.
What's it all about?
Why did you write this book?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
well, keep chewing the granite.
You might be wondering wherethat title came from.
Just before I told you about mefailing all the skiing
strategies and we're just beforemy third failure in scotland.
I was out on the snow with mytrainer, a very good friend of
mine, jimmy Smith.
This is the end of April and wewere only skiing at like 4,000,
(39:03):
4,500 feet, very low, but asyou know, scotland is very north
.
So this ski, this snow was justdeep, deep, nasty slush.
And Jimmy shouts out okay, ladsone ski off.
So now we're just having to skion one ski, going up and down a
drag lift, you know one thatpulls you up the hill, and I'd
(39:25):
never done this before and Imake one turn splat, one turn
splat, maybe next time two turnssplat and by this time I'm
soaked through from this slush,snow and I land literally at
Jimmy's feet and he looks downat me and he says in his
(39:45):
Scottish accent are you allright, choggy?
I said I think so, jimmy.
He said just keep chewing thegranite.
And by that he meant don't giveup.
And that saying stuck with meever since because I needed a
title for the book that wouldperhaps intrigue people a little
(40:07):
bit because I was going to callit the what If Factor.
I thought, you know it's kindof boring and that's why I
called it.
You know, keep chewing thegranite how two questions can
change your life.
There's already some reallygood reviews of it on Amazoncom
and you can get it on prettymuch on any Amazon site.
(40:31):
Really Quite, a few people havebought it.
There's some good five-starreviews on Amazon about it.
So yeah, and all these storiesI've been telling you, of course
they're all in the book, everyone of them.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Yeah, and a lot more detail and everything else.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Something I should tell you is the man that wrote
the foreword is a man you mighthave heard of called Howard
Lutnick.
He was the chairman and CEO of,and he became my ski client for
12 years.
And he became my ski client for12 years.
He's the chairman and CEO ofCantor Fitzgerald in New York
(41:12):
City in the Twin Towers, and helost the most 658 of his
employees and his brother andhis best friend on 9-11.
And he offered to write theforeword for the book for me and
he was my client for 12 years.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Wow, If I'm not mistaken because I have heard of
Howard Ludnick just because ofthat story If I'm not mistaken,
he was supposed to be there buthe ended up taking somebody to
school, or something like that,I think.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
I can't remember the exact story.
He took his eldest son, kyle,to school that morning,
otherwise he'd obviously been inthere too.
Yeah, yeah, amazing.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
How do you, how do you ever get over that?
But you know, I mean you.
You talk about an A typepersonality.
He's definitely A1, a1.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
I mean, can you imagine how many funerals?
Speaker 2 (42:11):
and all that stuff he went to and oh oh yeah,
unbelievable that many peoplegreat thing about him.
He he ended up reallysupporting the, the families of
you know, all the people thatdied and stuff you know raised
millions and millions of dollarsthrough his charity and stuff.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Good man so how long ago did this book come out,
Chalky?
Speaker 2 (42:26):
It first came out in January.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
So this is new and you're not a spring chicken
anymore.
You're in your 70s now, so thishas been kind of you're taking
your whole life.
What's it like puttingsomething together like that at
your age?
Speaker 2 (42:42):
It's like the ski book.
I needed something to occupy mymind and I just enjoy the act
of writing, apart from anythingelse.
So I decided to write a memoir.
And then somebody said well,all these stories, why don't you
try and put something togetherwhere it's actually going to
actually help people, give themsome kind of a solution?
(43:04):
And of course I've got this.
What if I don't?
What if I do?
Solution, and after everysingle story there's a different
way of how you might use thesolution.
Everybody that's read it so far, much like yourself, they think
it's a really good idea.
As I said, the simplicity of itis the simplicity of it because
(43:30):
anybody can use it at anymoment, at any time.
You can sit in there right now.
You or I could use it right nowif we wanted to about something
or other.
You could ask yourself what ifI don't put this guy Chalky
White's podcast out there?
I'm kidding, I hope you do, ofcourse well, that would
definitely be negative, right?
Speaker 1 (43:50):
I mean, yeah, I've got to go to the positive.
What if I do put his episodeout there, which I will?
Yeah, no, absolutely no, it's a, it's a, it's a funny way.
It's a funny way to say it.
But no, you're right, any, youcould apply that to to anything.
I think something else that'sthat I find unique about Chalky
is just your experiences.
You've gone through some reallytough things.
You know, being beaten, abusedby your dad could have put you
(44:14):
in a place that didn't turn outso well.
I mean, a lot of people don'tget over that, but you seem to
get over that.
And just the different failuresyou've had, you've gotten over
it.
Tell me, yeah, talk to me alittle bit about that.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Well, of course it never leaves you.
It never leaves you.
I mean, it's always going to bea memory.
But the part of it that's, youknow, always been the worst for
me was when I used to beat myspinally injured mother.
He'd get her in a corner andshe'd be cowering in the corner
and be beating her from behind.
You know, little me, like seven, eight years old at the time.
(44:48):
What was I going to do?
You know?
I just, you know, couldn't doanything.
In a way it's been a motivationfor me.
It's because I failed so much,if you like, when I was a
youngster, you know, completeand utter failure at school.
And another part of the reasonwhy certainly I wrote the first
(45:09):
book, the ski book, is because Ididn't go to college.
I thought, well, if I writethis book, it's kind of like
writing a thesis, you know,which I've never done.
Funnily enough, though, even atschool I even failed English
language, that subject but it'sthe subject that I'm really good
(45:33):
at.
Another irony is my worstsubject at school was probably
physics, and my ski book is allbased on simple physics.
There's no equations or any ofthat in it, but it's all based
that.
If you don't adhere to certainthings, to certain things, then
you're not going to ski verywell, you know.
(45:54):
So very weird, yeah.
So my best subjects I flunkedand the one that I was worst at
of all, I used it, you know, inthat ski book obviously.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
I know something else you've done and I love talking
with you because you're easy totalk to, you're lighthearted,
you laugh at yourself, you havea good time.
You have done some keynotespeaking.
What's kind of the plan withthat?
Are you looking to do some moreof that?
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Tell me a little bit about that.
I did two or three speeches toan organization called the Stout
Street Foundation, which was topeople that were there not
voluntarily but because theywere either drug recovering
addicts or alcoholics.
I've got a really good responsewith those people, and I did
(46:48):
one to a company down here aswell, a vacation-type company.
I did one as well, and thatseemed to go down pretty well
too.
I just need to now followthrough on that more and try and
get myself out there and tryand get some real engagements
and start hopefully getting paidfor it.
Know, because I mean, have youdone any of that yourself?
Speaker 1 (47:09):
I have not.
No, not public speaking likethat.
I have not.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
I'd like to you wouldn't be, we wouldn't be
running a podcast if youcouldn't speak, so might be what
could be a good opportunity foryou too, couldn't it?
you know, I mean yeah absolutelysome some good money to be made
from that.
And also I like to think, youknow, with the message I've got
I can genuinely help.
I mean, where would helpcompanies?
Most companies sell something,something or other, so they've
(47:35):
all got sales.
People Sales is probably thehardest thing for people to do
in any company.
That's why a lot of peopledon't want to sell.
They hate the thought of't wantto sell.
They just don't.
They hate the thought ofselling anything to anybody.
But they can use.
You know, for example, what if Idon't pick up the phone and
(47:57):
speak to this guy that I'mreally nervous of?
What would be the repercussionsof that for me and what will
happen?
What if I don't pick up thespeak phone to speak to anybody
ever again?
Well, the answer you get fromthat is well, I won't earn any
money, I won't be able to takemy, my family, on a vacation,
(48:19):
won't be able to buy a car, I'llhave no money.
But then you hate those answers.
You turn it around.
But what if I do pick up thephone and talk to this guy?
I really don't want to talk tohim.
You get those great answers.
You can then pick up the phoneand talk to him and you might
even end up making the sale ofthe year, you know.
(48:39):
So it's very useful, I think,for for people like that and
anybody that's got naysayers intheir life, and, of course, the
biggest naysayer of them all isourselves.
That is true, Because you know,I procrastinated in the police
force for nine years, alwayswanted out, but never had the
(49:00):
guts to do it until I askedmyself those two questions, and
on and on and on.
You know, like I said, the timeI failed was I failed big time
when I didn't use thosequestions.
So that was all about abusiness.
I was in business and I spenttoo much on real estate, and I
didn't.
I should have asked myself whatif I don't figure this out
(49:24):
first and know what the numbersare going to be exactly before I
take the plunge.
I didn't do it.
As a result, I'd run thisbusiness for eight years and I
had to leave, I had to quit, butthe good news was I eventually
ended up in America and, asyou've heard, you know, I'm now
(49:45):
happily married to an Americanlady.
I've been for 23 years, lynn.
So so yeah, and my hope is thatthrough through this podcast
and hopefully I'm I want to beon others as well, if I can and
and even get on talk shows, if Ican and and keep putting the
message out there because Ithink, you know, it's a great
message to give and as we keepcoming back to easy and simple.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
It's a great message and I appreciate you sharing it
here and we've been, we've beenchatting for a while.
Just a couple of things to wrapup.
For me, journey with Jake it'scut, it's evolved, it's you know
, it started off it's going tobe just a travel podcast, and
now it's gotten more people'sexperiences and adventures and
things like that.
So for you, I like to ask thisquestion to everybody.
So for you, chalky, what doesadventure mean to you?
Speaker 2 (50:33):
It's always meant travel, always.
You know, part of the reason Iwanted to get out of the police
was because I wanted to travelmore, and ski instruction has
helped me to do that, becauseit's helped me to live in 11
different countries, I mean,even as a summer job.
I worked in morocco, would youbelieve, as a discotheque
(50:55):
manager for a summer job,because that's the other thing.
Being a ski instructor is, ifyou do one season a year, like
in the Northern Hemisphere,you're unemployed for the other
six months of the year.
You've got to keep findingdifferent things to do.
Hence why, you know, I sold,first of all, the encyclopedias,
(51:17):
worked in and run thatdiscotheque and all that kind of
stuff.
I even drove a truck for asummer.
You know all kinds of thingsthat I've done.
But adventure, I mean, I took mywife back in 2004 and we went
walking all up around everestand we were out there for we're
(51:38):
out walking for two weeks with aguide, you know, and living
what they call tea houses, youknow, and uh, where and where
the walls are just made of thinplywood, you know you could hear
what was going on next door.
So you know things like thatand like, next month we're going
to Italy, you know, and we'redoing a road trip.
We're going to do a road tripup through Florence and then to
(52:01):
Venice, and we're going to spenddays in the Dolomites and then
the Italian lakes down to Pisa,because I've always had a
leaning towards that place.
Excuse my sorry about that.
I love it.
So, yeah, I loved it.
And you know, still in my mindit's something I haven't done.
(52:23):
Which I still really, reallywant to do is go on a safari in
Africa just to see the animals.
That would be amazing Not tohunt no interest in hunting,
just to see.
I'd love to see all that.
I've never spent any time in,you know, south of the Sahara,
so it's one place I want to goand also another place I want to
go.
And also another place that Iwant to go on my bucket list is
(52:46):
the Galapagos islands.
See all those creatures there.
I would love to go and do that.
Yeah, so yeah, travel is stillvery, very big in my life, no
doubt.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
Thank you for sharing that.
That was wonderful.
I don't maybe I'm making thisup, but I thought I read
somewhere that you would finishyour speeches by singing
something.
Is that true or no?
Speaker 2 (53:06):
Yeah, I can sing.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
Can we do that for to end journey with Jake, with
with Chalky?
Could would you mind give us alittle little song to end this
out?
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Well, obviously it's going to be acapella.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
That's fine, no worries.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
I'm going to sing this song because it is.
I see trees of green, red rosestoo.
I see them bloom for me and youand I think to myself what a
(53:42):
wonderful world.
What a wonderful world.
I see skies of blue and cloudsof white and the bright, blessed
days and the dark, sacrednights and I think to myself
what a wonderful world.
(54:03):
That's it, basically.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
I love it, Chalky.
Thank you so much for coming onJourney with Jake.
Speaker 2 (54:08):
I mean, I've probably put everybody completely off by
singing that.
Speaker 1 (54:11):
but that was wonderful.
Thank you so much.
That's going to wrap up myconversation with Burnett Chalky
White.
I'll just say, chalky, be sureto check out his book Keep
Chewing the Granite how TwoQuestions Can Change your Life.
You can find it on Amazon andI'll include a link right here
in the show notes for you Beforewe sign off.
(54:32):
How's everyone doing?
I'd really love to hear fromyou, whether it's through
Instagram, atjourneywithjakepodcast, or just
send me an email directly tojake at journeywithjakenet.
I always enjoy connecting withyou and hearing about your own
adventures.
And don't forget, the nextepisode is just a few days away.
That's right, we're still inOctober, so that's two episodes
a week.
(54:53):
It features a past guest ofmine, jamie Edwards.
In our first chat, jamie and Italked about her adventures in
Antarctica, but this time we'reheading north, way up to the
Arctic Circle.
You won't want to miss it.
Thanks again for listening.
Until next time.
Just remember, it's not alwaysabout the destination as it is
about the journey.
Take care everybody.
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