June 25, 2025 • 20 mins
Join Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr. Aimee Prasek for a conversation about our motivations for curiosity. We'll start with Albert Einstein's idea that mystery is central to true art and science, and the importance of remaining curious and open to the unknown... which, yes, is easier said than done. To make things a bit easier here, we can engage in a little check in strategy by asking ourselves, "Am I curious to learn or confirm?" When our curiosity is driven by learning rather than a need for confirming, we can see big benefits for our wellbeing and brain health. This episode also sets the stage for our focus next month on the Element of Awe. We hope you'll come away with some inspiration to embrace the (healthy!) discomfort that true curiosity requires and to integrate a sense of wonder into your daily life.
If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts!
Sources and Notes:
- Joy Lab Program: Take the next leap in your wellbeing journey with step-by-step practices to help you build and maintain the elements of joy in your life.
- Related Joy Lab Episodes:
Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program.
Please see our terms for more information.
If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call the NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-6264 available Monday through Friday, 10 a.m. – 10 p.m., ET. OR text "HelpLine" to 62640 or email NAMI at helpline@nami.org. Visit NAMI for more. You can also call or text SAMHSA at 988 or chat 988lifeline.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast,where we help you uncover and
(00:03):
foster your most joyful self.
Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr.Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of
soulful and scientifically sound tools tospark your joy, even when it feels dark.
When you're ready to experiment withmore joy, combine this podcast with the
full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
(00:25):
Hello, I'm Henry Emmons andwelcome back to Joy Lab.
And I am Aimee Prasek.
So this month we have been exploring ourElement of Curiosity, and next month, very
soon we will get into our Element of Awe.
And I love how theseElements work together.
(00:45):
Curiosity is inherent in awe, soyou'll get like little hints of awe
throughout today's episode, and thennext month you'll get lots of it.
But today I wanna get into somethinga little bit more specific about
an aspect of curiosity thathas to do with our motivations.
And to start, I want to anchor uswith some wisdom from Albert Einstein.
(01:10):
This comes from one of Einstein'sessays, The World As I See It.
Here it is.
" The most beautiful experiencewe can have is the mysterious.
It is the fundamental emotionthat stands at the cradle of
true art and true science.
Whoever does not know it and can nolonger wonder, no longer marvel is as
(01:35):
good as dead and their eyes are dimmed."
So it's kind of a big statement, right?
The ability to approach andhold mystery, curiosity and awe.
That without those things,Einstein says that we are as good
as dead, and I think he's right.
(01:55):
So I don't think he was beingtoo big with that statement.
But I do think perhaps that by dead,he mostly means depressed, just going
through the motions, disconnected, cut offfrom who we are and the world around us.
The research absolutely supports this.
Lower levels of curiosity are associatedwith higher levels of depression and
(02:20):
practicing awe can reduce depressivesymptoms and improve wellbeing.
But even more literally, we are wired forcuriosity and awe, like as survival tools.
So to adapt and change with ourenvironment, we need curiosity.
To build bonds that promote our survival,
(02:41):
we need curiosity and awe.
So we need those elementsto do those things.
Henry, do you have more to addhere, maybe from that Einstein
quote or these elements?
Yeah.
You know, the, the part of a quote thatjumped out at me is what comes after
he says that he's as good as dead.
(03:02):
He goes on to say, andtheir eyes are dimmed.
And that line reminds me of a book thatreally had a big impact on me when I was
young, even though at that age and evenstill, I barely understand what it meant.
(03:23):
When I was in my early twentiesduring medical school, I used to go
on retreats periodically at a Trappistmonastery in Iowa of all places.
I wasn't Catholic, but I was just reallydrawn to the contemplative lifestyle.
We talked about this in a recent episode,Aimee and it was really fun to make
(03:45):
that connection that, that both of usin our youth, we were kind of taken
with the idea of going and living in a
Wild.
Yeah.
It's kind of wild.
Yeah.
But anyway, they had a book in theirlibrary that just caught my eye,
was called The Cloud of Unknowing.
(04:08):
The Cloud of Unknowing.
Which was written wayback in the 14th century.
I think it's considered a spiritualclassic, but I don't believe
it's known who actually wrote it.
So, as I recall, through the mistof 40 years, the cloud is kind
of like Einstein's description,that the eyes are dimmed.
(04:32):
And it's, it's as if there is aveil between us and the infinite,
the great mystery, and this veilkeeps us from seeing what's true
at a deeper level, what's real.
And the gist of the book, as Irecall, is that we cannot see through
(04:54):
this veil with our rational minds.
We can only see through it by unknowing.
By not thinking too much, butjust being open to presence.
The great presence, if you will.
(05:14):
And I think that's what's so amazingabout Einstein's quote, you know,
because he is the very symbol of astrong scientific mind, and yet here he
is talking about the mysterious as themost beautiful experience we can have.
Yeah, The Cloud of Unknowing.
(05:36):
I'm adding that to my book list.
Tell me what it means.
Oh God.
Yeah.
Well, just maybe from your descriptionhere, like, I just love being reminded
too that stepping back from so manyof our assumptions and expectations
is not only one of the most courageousthings I think we can do on a daily
(06:00):
basis, but that it opens us up to
well this, this space of knowing thatwe can't describe that like that isn't
necessarily in the realm of logic orwhat we can research and sort of grab
onto with our, our hands or teeth.
(06:22):
There's something bigger about it andI just, that feels good when we're sort
of bombarded by information constantly.
We feel like we have to like takeit all in all the time and have a
opinion about every piece of it.
And that's not to this, I mean,God, the critical thinking Einstein
was a critical thinker, right?
(06:43):
These things can happen together.
That feels really good.
Yeah.
I love that.
So I think also our motivationscan actually help us here,
like checking in with them.
Um, our motivations for curiositycan help us step into that,
that space of unknowning.
That takes a lot of courage.
(07:05):
So checking in with our motivations,understanding, why are we curious,
really, what is fueling our curiosity?
And in the research, this issometimes called motivations for
information seeking behavior.
So what are we motivated by?
And a lot of the research here is alittle bit more sort of evolutionary.
(07:26):
So they're looking at why are we curious,the drivers of curiosity that may
have evolved to support our survival.
But I think it's really important for usto consider, when it comes to our mental
health, what is driving our curiosityand to realize that we have a say here.
If we don't think the motivationis helpful, then we can shift it.
(07:50):
And I think this can be reallysimple to kind of check in on this.
We can determine if our curiosityis motivated by curiosity to
learn or a curiosity to confirm.
Mm.
It's kind of a you know, afixed versus open mindset.
So I think this is important becauseit is super easy to approach curiosity
(08:14):
with the motivation of confirmation.
We can go through some of the motionsof curiosity, researching on the
internet, asking a few people in ourcircle, maybe with the motivation of
confirming something we already believe.
And that motivation for curiosity,I think that's what Einstein
(08:36):
would say, dims our eyes.
We can come away saying, oh, Idid my research, but we really
didn't do it with curiosity.
We did it with the end already settled,and we just kind of like put some mush in
the middle to make ourselves feel better.
I'm not coming at folks with this.
I lean towards this.
I'm very good at it.
(08:57):
I can give you a lot of mush forsomething that I've already believed.
It's, I, I mean it's, it's part ofwhat we talked about with uncertainty.
So sometimes when we feel thatuncertainty, and maybe we're a little
low on the tolerance at a givenpoint, it can feel really good to
just kind of stuff some mush in there.
So, you know, we, we might findourselves being super externally curious,
(09:21):
just like a lot of frenetic outwardactivity that feels like curiosity.
But again, just actually workingto confirm an original belief that
we've already had, to make somethingjust kind of feel a little bit
better if it's felt uncomfortable.
which I think is a tangiblemethod of worrying, like it's like
worrying with receipts, with a papertrail if you just do some sort of
(09:46):
frenetic internet research and such.
So go back to the worrying episode.
I'll link it in the show notes.
It can kind of trick ourselvesinto thinking that type of worrying
or curiosity might be beneficial.
So I have to check myself withthis, and I think this is where
awe can come in, in a big way.
We can back off of some of ourdesire for getting certainty, or,
(10:12):
you know, trying to find an answer,a concrete answer, and we can instead
let awe fuel some of that curiosity.
And so just so that we have a handlehere, I'm gonna describe awe, define
it, awe is this feeling, the experiencethat we have when we might witness
something that kind of feels bigger thanourselves and something that might feel
(10:38):
mysterious or it might even challengeour usual understanding of the world.
So that kind of motivation, that kind ofawe can really open up our curiosity in a
way that can shift us out of confirmationbias, and then it can help us get through
some of the discomfort of uncertaintyas well when we're kind of tapped into
(11:01):
that sense of awe, and then it actuallysupports our growth and our wellbeing.
Hmm, I, I'm intrigued by, by somethingyou said earlier this notion that
we can somehow satisfy our curiosityby researching on the internet.
I don't know if I said that.
(11:23):
I've tried that.
I mean, sometimes...it's a slippery slope.
Well, since we'retalking about motivation,
Yeah.
think it's fair to bring in the topicof the brain's motivation system
of which dopamine is a big part.
Oh, you're gonna tell us more aboutresearching on the internet and
(11:44):
how that hap, how that works inour brain, Henry, I'm guessing.
Think, I don't think I reallyneed to, 'cause I think we know.
What WebMD does to us.
Oh well, just what clickbait does to us.
Oh, there you go.
Yeah, yeah.
Let's hear it.
The, the two most addicting things Ican think of, aside from hard drugs are
(12:06):
things that impact dopamine immediately.
And one of those is nicotine.
I think the other one is clickingon and, and really it is kind
of about that confirmation, bias
Absolutely.
You know, the, it's that need to get, and,and also it's just quick gratification.
You know, it's, it'swanting to know immediately.
(12:27):
And I think the people who writethese articles with such catchy
titles absolutely know this.
And so you know, we are trained,we have trained ourselves, and
we've been entrained by othersto, to kinda need that next hit.
And we get it every time we do this.
It seems like it's something newand fresh, but it's really not.
(12:50):
Yeah.
I do wonder what this isdoing to our curiosity.
I, I think it diminishes it.
Hmm.
You know, I'm, I'm thinking about everySaturday morning, I, I sit with a group
of friends over coffee there's, therecan be up to 10 or 12 of us there.
(13:11):
And we have this, these wide ranging,often kind of heady discussions and, then
invariably we come up against a questionthat no one actually knows the answer to.
Some of us might attempt to givean answer or think that we know.
(13:32):
Yeah.
But after a few of these feeble attempts,invariably someone will say something
like, if only there is a way to findout, then laughs and somebody pulls out
their phone or iPad and looks it up.
It's just classic.
Yeah.
(13:54):
You know, there, there are a couplethings about curiosity that I think
this conversation is getting at thatI just really believe are important.
One of them has to do with whycuriosity is so good for the brain,
and I believe that that requires justa little bit of discomfort, know, a
(14:17):
genuine effort to resolve whateverit is that you're curious about.
Whatever has really got you going.
That's very motivating that, I mean,part of it is you're motivated because
it bothers you or you're, you'resomehow compelled by, not knowing.
But, but also there is something almostmagical that happens in the brain once
(14:42):
you do resolve it, which is so goodfor making those neural connections and
helping these new brain cells to grow.
I mean, it's absolutely, this is the sortof the miracle grow moment for the brain.
We create a little bit of distressand then through some hard won
(15:04):
effort, we resolve it, we find ananswer, we solve the puzzle, whatever
it is, and it is so gratifying.
It's, and that gratification means thatthere's a, it's a big reward experience.
That's what gives us a deeper,more lasting motivation, I think.
(15:25):
And I do think it's that motivationto learn that you talked about,
not just to confirm or, or try toget a quick and and easy answer.
But the other thing I wanted to sayabout curiosity, it goes back to that
Einstein quote that you started with.
It seems to me that there is acommon theme in many of the wisdom
(15:47):
traditions that says something tothe effect of, of most of us human
beings, basically being asleep.
You know, that we're, we'rebasically living in a dream
world of our own creation.
And the goal then of a spiritual pathis, is really to wake up from that dream.
(16:09):
To see through the mist or thecloud of unknowing, so to speak.
And when we do that, what do we see?
Well, it's a mystery, isn't it?
Einstein believed that theultimate mystery was not meant
to be understood intellectually.
(16:30):
And personally i'm okay with that.
You know, we can know something withoutintellectually understanding it,
Yeah.
And to me that's the essence ofdeep curiosity and and genuine awe.
I think that's where they meet.
(16:51):
Your story about coffee, made methink as well, and, and just on this
note too with, with this, how, howcuriosity isn't meant to bring us to
a concrete answer, but our phones do.
We have a, in some of my circles,we have a rule that if you can't
(17:11):
remember it, nobody can look it up.
And
I'm gonna try that.
It
is very uncomfortable at first.
You know, like a song.
This happened recently.
We could not remember a, a name ofa song or something and inevitably
somebody pulls out the phone,we're like, Nope, nope, nope.
(17:32):
We're gonna work on this.
And so as a group we kind of gothrough this process of curiosity.
Ultimately, we came to a story whenthese are friends from long ago in
middle school where one of our friendsused to pretend to be Alanis Morissette.
It was this whole big thing andshe'd sing Jagged Little Pill,
(17:52):
and we were like obsessed with it.
We were just cracking up together,just laughing, imagining, you know,
now her singing Alanis Morissetteand then she broke into song.
It's like this whole thing.
It was so beautiful and it was awelike we were together, we were building
connection and we were in joy together.
(18:15):
We were in laughter.
It was so beautiful.
We never figured out the name of that songthat we started with, but by that point
we had created sort of this, this journeytogether that was really beautiful.
And I think just kind of whatyou described there with, the,
the understanding that theremight not be a concrete answer
(18:37):
and maybe that's the point.
That feels really good when you canexplore it with people too, I think.
So this is such a fun practice.
Maybe try it with your friends to stepinto a little bit of discomfort as a
group, and then get curious togetherand see kind of where that takes you.
I love that.
She's gonna kill me.
I'm not gonna say her name.
(18:57):
She's gonna kill me if I say her name.
So nobody's gonna bother herto sing Alanis Morissette.
So, yeah, we'll be moving into awe nextmonth for our podcast and our program.
So join us at the programif you're not already.
Stay tuned with us here at the podcast aswell as we explore Awe, these connections,
(19:18):
this Element of Joy that I think justfeels really good and that we can
experience every day, just like curiosity.
So I wanna close us with more Einstein.
Here it is.
the important thing isnot to stop questioning.
Curiosity has its own reason for existing.
One cannot help but be in awe whenthey contemplate the mysteries
(19:42):
of eternity of life, of themarvelous structure of reality.
It is enough if one tries merely tocomprehend a little of this mystery
every day, never lose a holy curiosity."
Thank you for listeningto the Joy Lab podcast.
If you enjoy today's show, visitJoyLab.coach to learn more
(20:04):
about the full Joy Lab program.
Be sure to rate and review us whereveryou listen to your favorite podcasts.
Please remember that thiscontent is for informational
and educational purposes only.
It is not intended to provide medicaladvice and is not a replacement for advice
and treatment from a medical professional.
Please consult your doctor orother qualified health professional
(20:26):
before beginning any diet change,supplement, or lifestyle program.
Please see our terms for more information.
Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast,where we help you uncover and
(00:03):
foster your most joyful self.
Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr.Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of
soulful and scientifically sound tools tospark your joy, even when it feels dark.
When you're ready to experiment withmore joy, combine this podcast with the
full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
(00:25):
Hello, I'm Henry Emmons andwelcome back to Joy Lab.
And I am Aimee Prasek.
So this month we have been exploring ourElement of Curiosity, and next month, very
soon we will get into our Element of Awe.
And I love how theseElements work together.
(00:45):
Curiosity is inherent in awe, soyou'll get like little hints of awe
throughout today's episode, and thennext month you'll get lots of it.
But today I wanna get into somethinga little bit more specific about
an aspect of curiosity thathas to do with our motivations.
And to start, I want to anchor uswith some wisdom from Albert Einstein.
(01:10):
This comes from one of Einstein'sessays, The World As I See It.
Here it is.
" The most beautiful experiencewe can have is the mysterious.
It is the fundamental emotionthat stands at the cradle of
true art and true science.
Whoever does not know it and can nolonger wonder, no longer marvel is as
(01:35):
good as dead and their eyes are dimmed."
So it's kind of a big statement, right?
The ability to approach andhold mystery, curiosity and awe.
That without those things,Einstein says that we are as good
as dead, and I think he's right.
(01:55):
So I don't think he was beingtoo big with that statement.
But I do think perhaps that by dead,he mostly means depressed, just going
through the motions, disconnected, cut offfrom who we are and the world around us.
The research absolutely supports this.
Lower levels of curiosity are associatedwith higher levels of depression and
(02:20):
practicing awe can reduce depressivesymptoms and improve wellbeing.
But even more literally, we are wired forcuriosity and awe, like as survival tools.
So to adapt and change with ourenvironment, we need curiosity.
To build bonds that promote our survival,
(02:41):
we need curiosity and awe.
So we need those elementsto do those things.
Henry, do you have more to addhere, maybe from that Einstein
quote or these elements?
Yeah.
You know, the, the part of a quote thatjumped out at me is what comes after
he says that he's as good as dead.
(03:02):
He goes on to say, andtheir eyes are dimmed.
And that line reminds me of a book thatreally had a big impact on me when I was
young, even though at that age and evenstill, I barely understand what it meant.
(03:23):
When I was in my early twentiesduring medical school, I used to go
on retreats periodically at a Trappistmonastery in Iowa of all places.
I wasn't Catholic, but I was just reallydrawn to the contemplative lifestyle.
We talked about this in a recent episode,Aimee and it was really fun to make
(03:45):
that connection that, that both of usin our youth, we were kind of taken
with the idea of going and living in a
Wild.
Yeah.
It's kind of wild.
Yeah.
But anyway, they had a book in theirlibrary that just caught my eye,
was called The Cloud of Unknowing.
(04:08):
The Cloud of Unknowing.
Which was written wayback in the 14th century.
I think it's considered a spiritualclassic, but I don't believe
it's known who actually wrote it.
So, as I recall, through the mistof 40 years, the cloud is kind
of like Einstein's description,that the eyes are dimmed.
(04:32):
And it's, it's as if there is aveil between us and the infinite,
the great mystery, and this veilkeeps us from seeing what's true
at a deeper level, what's real.
And the gist of the book, as Irecall, is that we cannot see through
(04:54):
this veil with our rational minds.
We can only see through it by unknowing.
By not thinking too much, butjust being open to presence.
The great presence, if you will.
(05:14):
And I think that's what's so amazingabout Einstein's quote, you know,
because he is the very symbol of astrong scientific mind, and yet here he
is talking about the mysterious as themost beautiful experience we can have.
Yeah, The Cloud of Unknowing.
(05:36):
I'm adding that to my book list.
Tell me what it means.
Oh God.
Yeah.
Well, just maybe from your descriptionhere, like, I just love being reminded
too that stepping back from so manyof our assumptions and expectations
is not only one of the most courageousthings I think we can do on a daily
(06:00):
basis, but that it opens us up to
well this, this space of knowing thatwe can't describe that like that isn't
necessarily in the realm of logic orwhat we can research and sort of grab
onto with our, our hands or teeth.
(06:22):
There's something bigger about it andI just, that feels good when we're sort
of bombarded by information constantly.
We feel like we have to like takeit all in all the time and have a
opinion about every piece of it.
And that's not to this, I mean,God, the critical thinking Einstein
was a critical thinker, right?
(06:43):
These things can happen together.
That feels really good.
Yeah.
I love that.
So I think also our motivationscan actually help us here,
like checking in with them.
Um, our motivations for curiositycan help us step into that,
that space of unknowning.
That takes a lot of courage.
(07:05):
So checking in with our motivations,understanding, why are we curious,
really, what is fueling our curiosity?
And in the research, this issometimes called motivations for
information seeking behavior.
So what are we motivated by?
And a lot of the research here is alittle bit more sort of evolutionary.
(07:26):
So they're looking at why are we curious,the drivers of curiosity that may
have evolved to support our survival.
But I think it's really important for usto consider, when it comes to our mental
health, what is driving our curiosityand to realize that we have a say here.
If we don't think the motivationis helpful, then we can shift it.
(07:50):
And I think this can be reallysimple to kind of check in on this.
We can determine if our curiosityis motivated by curiosity to
learn or a curiosity to confirm.
Mm.
It's kind of a you know, afixed versus open mindset.
So I think this is important becauseit is super easy to approach curiosity
(08:14):
with the motivation of confirmation.
We can go through some of the motionsof curiosity, researching on the
internet, asking a few people in ourcircle, maybe with the motivation of
confirming something we already believe.
And that motivation for curiosity,I think that's what Einstein
(08:36):
would say, dims our eyes.
We can come away saying, oh, Idid my research, but we really
didn't do it with curiosity.
We did it with the end already settled,and we just kind of like put some mush in
the middle to make ourselves feel better.
I'm not coming at folks with this.
I lean towards this.
I'm very good at it.
(08:57):
I can give you a lot of mush forsomething that I've already believed.
It's, I, I mean it's, it's part ofwhat we talked about with uncertainty.
So sometimes when we feel thatuncertainty, and maybe we're a little
low on the tolerance at a givenpoint, it can feel really good to
just kind of stuff some mush in there.
So, you know, we, we might findourselves being super externally curious,
(09:21):
just like a lot of frenetic outwardactivity that feels like curiosity.
But again, just actually workingto confirm an original belief that
we've already had, to make somethingjust kind of feel a little bit
better if it's felt uncomfortable.
which I think is a tangiblemethod of worrying, like it's like
worrying with receipts, with a papertrail if you just do some sort of
(09:46):
frenetic internet research and such.
So go back to the worrying episode.
I'll link it in the show notes.
It can kind of trick ourselvesinto thinking that type of worrying
or curiosity might be beneficial.
So I have to check myself withthis, and I think this is where
awe can come in, in a big way.
We can back off of some of ourdesire for getting certainty, or,
(10:12):
you know, trying to find an answer,a concrete answer, and we can instead
let awe fuel some of that curiosity.
And so just so that we have a handlehere, I'm gonna describe awe, define
it, awe is this feeling, the experiencethat we have when we might witness
something that kind of feels bigger thanourselves and something that might feel
(10:38):
mysterious or it might even challengeour usual understanding of the world.
So that kind of motivation, that kind ofawe can really open up our curiosity in a
way that can shift us out of confirmationbias, and then it can help us get through
some of the discomfort of uncertaintyas well when we're kind of tapped into
(11:01):
that sense of awe, and then it actuallysupports our growth and our wellbeing.
Hmm, I, I'm intrigued by, by somethingyou said earlier this notion that
we can somehow satisfy our curiosityby researching on the internet.
I don't know if I said that.
(11:23):
I've tried that.
I mean, sometimes...it's a slippery slope.
Well, since we'retalking about motivation,
Yeah.
think it's fair to bring in the topicof the brain's motivation system
of which dopamine is a big part.
Oh, you're gonna tell us more aboutresearching on the internet and
(11:44):
how that hap, how that works inour brain, Henry, I'm guessing.
Think, I don't think I reallyneed to, 'cause I think we know.
What WebMD does to us.
Oh well, just what clickbait does to us.
Oh, there you go.
Yeah, yeah.
Let's hear it.
The, the two most addicting things Ican think of, aside from hard drugs are
(12:06):
things that impact dopamine immediately.
And one of those is nicotine.
I think the other one is clickingon and, and really it is kind
of about that confirmation, bias
Absolutely.
You know, the, it's that need to get, and,and also it's just quick gratification.
You know, it's, it'swanting to know immediately.
(12:27):
And I think the people who writethese articles with such catchy
titles absolutely know this.
And so you know, we are trained,we have trained ourselves, and
we've been entrained by othersto, to kinda need that next hit.
And we get it every time we do this.
It seems like it's something newand fresh, but it's really not.
(12:50):
Yeah.
I do wonder what this isdoing to our curiosity.
I, I think it diminishes it.
Hmm.
You know, I'm, I'm thinking about everySaturday morning, I, I sit with a group
of friends over coffee there's, therecan be up to 10 or 12 of us there.
(13:11):
And we have this, these wide ranging,often kind of heady discussions and, then
invariably we come up against a questionthat no one actually knows the answer to.
Some of us might attempt to givean answer or think that we know.
(13:32):
Yeah.
But after a few of these feeble attempts,invariably someone will say something
like, if only there is a way to findout, then laughs and somebody pulls out
their phone or iPad and looks it up.
It's just classic.
Yeah.
(13:54):
You know, there, there are a couplethings about curiosity that I think
this conversation is getting at thatI just really believe are important.
One of them has to do with whycuriosity is so good for the brain,
and I believe that that requires justa little bit of discomfort, know, a
(14:17):
genuine effort to resolve whateverit is that you're curious about.
Whatever has really got you going.
That's very motivating that, I mean,part of it is you're motivated because
it bothers you or you're, you'resomehow compelled by, not knowing.
But, but also there is something almostmagical that happens in the brain once
(14:42):
you do resolve it, which is so goodfor making those neural connections and
helping these new brain cells to grow.
I mean, it's absolutely, this is the sortof the miracle grow moment for the brain.
We create a little bit of distressand then through some hard won
(15:04):
effort, we resolve it, we find ananswer, we solve the puzzle, whatever
it is, and it is so gratifying.
It's, and that gratification means thatthere's a, it's a big reward experience.
That's what gives us a deeper,more lasting motivation, I think.
(15:25):
And I do think it's that motivationto learn that you talked about,
not just to confirm or, or try toget a quick and and easy answer.
But the other thing I wanted to sayabout curiosity, it goes back to that
Einstein quote that you started with.
It seems to me that there is acommon theme in many of the wisdom
(15:47):
traditions that says something tothe effect of, of most of us human
beings, basically being asleep.
You know, that we're, we'rebasically living in a dream
world of our own creation.
And the goal then of a spiritual pathis, is really to wake up from that dream.
(16:09):
To see through the mist or thecloud of unknowing, so to speak.
And when we do that, what do we see?
Well, it's a mystery, isn't it?
Einstein believed that theultimate mystery was not meant
to be understood intellectually.
(16:30):
And personally i'm okay with that.
You know, we can know something withoutintellectually understanding it,
Yeah.
And to me that's the essence ofdeep curiosity and and genuine awe.
I think that's where they meet.
(16:51):
Your story about coffee, made methink as well, and, and just on this
note too with, with this, how, howcuriosity isn't meant to bring us to
a concrete answer, but our phones do.
We have a, in some of my circles,we have a rule that if you can't
(17:11):
remember it, nobody can look it up.
And
I'm gonna try that.
It
is very uncomfortable at first.
You know, like a song.
This happened recently.
We could not remember a, a name ofa song or something and inevitably
somebody pulls out the phone,we're like, Nope, nope, nope.
(17:32):
We're gonna work on this.
And so as a group we kind of gothrough this process of curiosity.
Ultimately, we came to a story whenthese are friends from long ago in
middle school where one of our friendsused to pretend to be Alanis Morissette.
It was this whole big thing andshe'd sing Jagged Little Pill,
(17:52):
and we were like obsessed with it.
We were just cracking up together,just laughing, imagining, you know,
now her singing Alanis Morissetteand then she broke into song.
It's like this whole thing.
It was so beautiful and it was awelike we were together, we were building
connection and we were in joy together.
(18:15):
We were in laughter.
It was so beautiful.
We never figured out the name of that songthat we started with, but by that point
we had created sort of this, this journeytogether that was really beautiful.
And I think just kind of whatyou described there with, the,
the understanding that theremight not be a concrete answer
(18:37):
and maybe that's the point.
That feels really good when you canexplore it with people too, I think.
So this is such a fun practice.
Maybe try it with your friends to stepinto a little bit of discomfort as a
group, and then get curious togetherand see kind of where that takes you.
I love that.
She's gonna kill me.
I'm not gonna say her name.
(18:57):
She's gonna kill me if I say her name.
So nobody's gonna bother herto sing Alanis Morissette.
So, yeah, we'll be moving into awe nextmonth for our podcast and our program.
So join us at the programif you're not already.
Stay tuned with us here at the podcast aswell as we explore Awe, these connections,
(19:18):
this Element of Joy that I think justfeels really good and that we can
experience every day, just like curiosity.
So I wanna close us with more Einstein.
Here it is.
the important thing isnot to stop questioning.
Curiosity has its own reason for existing.
One cannot help but be in awe whenthey contemplate the mysteries
(19:42):
of eternity of life, of themarvelous structure of reality.
It is enough if one tries merely tocomprehend a little of this mystery
every day, never lose a holy curiosity."
Thank you for listeningto the Joy Lab podcast.
If you enjoy today's show, visitJoyLab.coach to learn more
(20:04):
about the full Joy Lab program.
Be sure to rate and review us whereveryou listen to your favorite podcasts.
Please remember that thiscontent is for informational
and educational purposes only.
It is not intended to provide medicaladvice and is not a replacement for advice
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Please consult your doctor orother qualified health professional
(20:26):
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