January 8, 2025 • 23 mins
The 'Happiness Paradox' describes how the relentless pursuit of happiness can lead to poorer emotional and long-term health outcomes. That's an important paradox to know about when there's so much pressure to just "suck it up" or "put on a happy face." We'll talk about how to avoid this by contrasting happiness with joy (short story: happiness is fleeting and dependent on external factors, joy is a more enduring internal state that can coexist with negative emotions like grief and sadness). We'll also focus on how we can create positive growth in our lives that honors the coexistence of joy and hardship and how authentic emotional experiences can foster deeper joy. We work on the skills to do this through the Joy Lab Program-- so be sure to join us there for more skill-building, community, connection, and a more empowering and flexible approach to personal growth.
Sources and Notes:
- Joy Lab Program: Take the next leap in your wellbeing journey with step-by-step practices to help you build and maintain the elements of joy in your life.
Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program. Please see our terms for more information.
If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call the NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-6264 available Monday through Friday, 10 a.m. – 10 p.m., ET. OR text "HelpLine" to 62640 or email NAMI at helpline@nami.org. Visit NAMI for more. You can also call or text SAMHSA at 988 or chat 988lifeline.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast,where we help you uncover and
(00:03):
foster your most joyful self.
Your hosts, Dr.
Henry Emmons and Dr.
Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix ofsoulful and scientifically sound tools to
spark your joy, even when it feels dark.
When you're ready to experiment withmore joy, combine this podcast with the
full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
(00:26):
Hello, I'm Henry Emmonsand welcome to Joy Lab.
And I'm Aimee Prasek.
And we're here to help youuncover more of your joy, right?
That's the point of this podcast.
I just want to put that out rightaway because maybe we're going to
be talking about some interestingstuff as well, but it is also 2025.
The 1st episode, Henry and I aretogether to wish you this happy new year.
(00:54):
And we've had some big updatesin several of our past episodes.
This is a really exciting newyear for us all together here
at the podcast and the program.
I guess maybe the first importantpiece of news, if you've missed it,
the Joy Lab program is now open.
So head over to joylab.coach to join us.
Thanks, Aimee.
(01:14):
Yeah.
I would like to remind our listenersof a key foundation of Joy Lab.
If you want more joy in your life,you don't want to leave it to chance.
It might be there one moment,and then gone the next.
What we're trying to build issomething much more enduring.
(01:37):
Something that doesn't dependon what happens on the outside.
Because it's very unreliable.
So, we see joy as a skill.
Something that can bedeveloped and practiced.
And made solid over time.
And also something tobe done in community.
It is an internal practice.
(01:58):
That's true.
But let's learn from all of the wisdomtraditions and from all of the findings
in science that real lasting growthand change happens best when we are
connected, not when we're in isolation.
So we designed the Joy Labprogram to offer these things.
(02:21):
Every week, there's a new practice to helpdeepen the element of joy for that month.
We're constantly working behind thescenes to help create a vibrant,
supportive online community to help youstay on that path to a more joyful life.
And we even design our weeklypodcasts to help strengthen
the deeper work of the program.
(02:42):
So if you like the podcast, wethink you will love the program.
Please check it out.
Yeah.
God, sign me up.
That was awesome.
Thanks, Henry
thought you already were signed up
Sign me up again.
So yeah, in this month of January,here at the podcast and the program,
we focus on our element of inspiration.
(03:04):
And we wanted to dig a bit into what'scalled the happiness paradox at the
start of this new year, because, Ithink it's really helpful information
as we come into a season of inspiration,perhaps resolutions, this conversation
can help us put our goals andfocus in the most beneficial place.
(03:27):
So, the happiness paradox,let me explain it.
It's this really interesting phenomenon.
Where if you value happiness to a highdegree, so you see it as extremely
important and something that needsto be actively pursued at all times,
then as your desire or value forit continues to surge at those high
(03:49):
levels, the worse your outcomesare for emotions in the short term.
And then also for long termhealth outcomes, like well-being
and life satisfaction.
I know, paradox.
So I think it can tell us that much of thepressures around happiness or manifesting
(04:11):
happiness are surprisingly unhelpful.
Like in their extreme, right?
We're told happiness is all that matters.
The pursuit of happiness.
How could that pursuit be bad for us?
But when we sit with it a bit more.
I think it really starts to make sense.
I'll give a few reasons.
When we strive for happiness,it can position happiness as
(04:35):
external and future focused.
So that it's somethingthat exists out there.
It doesn't exist right now inour own sort of environment.
And that once we snag it, we have tohold onto it so tightly, it creates
a kind of rigidity for happiness.
And with that rigidity.
(04:56):
with a hyper focus on happiness, it alsomeans that how you may actually be feeling
may be sad, grief stricken, frustrated,that those things are not okay.
I think that's the kicker.
So we have this overvaluing of happiness.
Um, and then in that overvaluing,it really demands that we stuff
(05:19):
down or ignore other emotions thatwe don't feel are as good, are as
valuable, and if we feel those things,we can perceive it as a failure.
And I think as we talk about ithere, right, those negative emotions
are part of our wiring as well.
They have value in moderation.
And if we see them as failures, we arejust setting ourselves up for failure.
(05:44):
So, Henry, I want to hear more ofyour thoughts on this paradox and
maybe how you see it showing up.
Well, it makes a lot more sense now afterthe the last part of your explanation.
So while I was listening to you,though, I couldn't help but think
but notice, another paradox,
and I wonder if anybody else caught it.
(06:06):
So we just pitched theJoy Lab program, right?
Because we value joy at a highdegree as something important
enough to be actively pursued.
And then you shared with us the researchthat seems to say that's a bad idea.
We do this a lot, don't we?
(06:27):
It's why curiosity is oneof our elements of joy.
Right.
Because you know, if we value it too much,then you're going to have a worse outcome.
So how to make sense of that?
Right, right.
Well, I have a couple of thoughtsand I'd love to hear yours
Yeah, yeah.
So I'm really glad we're talking aboutthis though, because like you, I think
(06:47):
it's just really important information.
The first thought that comes tomind is that whenever something is
pursued with a quality of grasping,it can make you feel worse.
So we see this all the time with materialthings like, like money or items.
(07:09):
If we grasp too tightly, nomatter how much we have, we are
still going to feel miserable.
There is simply never enough to fillthe void if there's a big void there.
But this can happen with pursuitswe think of as more virtuous, too.
I see this frequently with clients,for example, who are trying
(07:31):
to live a healthier lifestyle.
And they sometimes become so rigid aroundtheir food choices, let's say, that
it just takes the joy out of eating.
Or exercise, you know, they exerciseso much that they keep hurting
themselves, like I myself havedone several times in my life.
Although I'm getting better at that.
(07:51):
But the lesson here, Ithink, is to hold it lightly.
You can work hard on something, that's,working hard is not the issue, like,
cultivating the elements of joy,but you can do so without striving,
without that element or that senseof striving or becoming driven by it.
(08:12):
And then as soon as you realize, ifyou, if you can sense that you're
clenching or that you're becomingrigid in your approach, then you
can just see that for what it isand step back and kind of refocus.
So when we're grasping, that's a signthat we feel there's not enough to go
around, that we ourselves are not enough.
(08:33):
Grasping is stressful, and the morestress, the worse our outcomes.
I think that explains to a largedegree that, that research.
Absolutely.
Another thought that I have thoughis that we see joy and happiness
in Joy Lab here, we see them asbeing quite different things.
By our definition, at least, happiness ismore of an emotion, more fleeting, whereas
(08:59):
joy is more of a constant inner state.
So, happiness doesn't last, joy does.
It's enduring.
Happiness depends more on circumstances,being good, being favorable, and also
on us doing the right things, whatwe think are the right things to make
(09:20):
those happen, and I think that's onereason for this happiness paradox you
described is this idea that if we justdo everything right, we should be happy.
I hear this a lot, and our beliefis that we can have joy no matter
what is happening around us.
Joy can exist side by side,simultaneously, with grief,
(09:45):
with loss, with illness.
They're not mutually exclusive.
So there's a steadiness tojoy, a reliability that just
holds us up even when it feelslike things are falling apart.
And it does not come from striving.
It comes more from allowing, notfrom grasping, but from letting go.
(10:10):
And these are sometimes hard conceptsto really, really understand, but I like
the way you put it in the introduction.
We're here to help you uncoverjoy, because it's already there.
And to me, that's the real paradox.
Yeah, I completely agree with your points,our definition of joy versus happiness.
(10:37):
And that the happiness paradoxdoesn't suggest that we do not pursue
good things or growth in our lives.
I think it reminds us that there iswork to do when it comes to growth
and at the same time, like yousaid, we can't hold it too rigidly.
even hold rigid the path we think toget there and then what it's going
(10:59):
to look like on the other side.
Again, that's a big reason why we focuson our 12 elements of joy as well.
We're not trying to create arobotic state of abstract happiness,
eternal sunshine of the spotlessmind is coming to me in that movie.
That's not helpful as the movie portraysand as the happiness paradox notes.
(11:23):
Instead, these elements of joy help usgive attention and practice to these
really tangible positive emotions andinner states that we can build more of.
That feels good.
And it's not in an effort, like you said,to ignore or reject any other emotion
that rises up like sadness or grief,but as a really grounded strategy to
(11:44):
nourish and train our systems to openup and to take in the good as well.
And then to also help us navigatethose more, you know, quote, negative
states that are just as much part ofthis life and that offer value as well.
So I think I want to, I want to share arecent experience that helped me really
(12:06):
tap into this feeling of joy amidstpain and this desire to pursue growth.
I hope it's helpful, because I thinkthis paradox can get confusing as well.
So I kind of touched it, thisparadox, and I want to share it.
So my sister and I, along with ourkiddos, went to California recently
(12:27):
to visit my 95 year old grandma,my daughter's great grandma.
And now I'll give a littlebit more background, actually.
So the day before that, I wastelling my mom about this trip.
And she has Alzheimer's, so I knewshe wouldn't really be able to grasp
the trip, but as I told her that wewere going out to see grandma, my
(12:50):
dad's mom, your husband's mom, I toldher, she just stared blankly at me.
And then she asked, who's your dad?
And I just felt like a punch inthe stomach when she said that.
But I thought I have toomuch to do right now.
I can't feel sad.
I need to get ready for this trip.
(13:12):
So I just kind of stuffed it down.
And so, we catch a flight the next dayto see my grandma, my dad's mom, and
she was also diagnosed with Alzheimer's.
Not a real surprise at 95, butnonetheless, the day, or the last day
that we were there, she was commentingon how she did not enjoy the people
(13:35):
who came to visit her a few days ago.
Which was us.
They're sitting there like,oh, God, do I tell her?
No, that's not helpful.
But I'm like, offended kind of.
And so, and I also wantedto tell her we were there.
We were like, she was wanting usto be there more, but we were, but
(13:57):
then she didn't like who was there.
So I just was, anyway, but she knew,on this last day that we are visiting
that it was us and it was a greatvisit and you know, we're saying
our goodbyes, we turned to leaveand she says, she yells out to us,
"Tell your mom and dad hi!"
And again, it was a punchin the stomach for me.
(14:19):
I hadn't heard that in 25 years.
My dad had died 25 years ago.
Her son had died 25 years ago.
Nobody really tells me to say hi to my momanymore because she doesn't really know.
So I'm sitting on the plane headinghome, kind of crying in the window
(14:39):
seat, just kind of replaying allof this and feeling really sad.
And so if I was caught in thehappiness paradox, I'd dismiss
that pain, that sadness, right?
Kind of like I had done the day before.
Which was okay.
I needed to pack.
I needed to get my stuff together.
But if I continue to stuff itin the corner, trying to be
(15:02):
happy, those corners get full.
And that's a problem.
I have filled those corners before and youcan make a hoarder's house pretty quickly,
full of stuffed down, sadness and anger.
So I knew that wasn't what I needed to do.
And I think here's my point.
I knew that I could handle it.
(15:24):
And so often, I thinkthat's how joy shows up.
It's like, it's not apermanent state of happiness.
It's not a perma party.
I think joy shows up so often, likea calm, grounding voice reminds
us deep, like deep in our bones.
(15:47):
That reminds us, you got this.
You can do hard things.
You are
connected.
You are enough.
You are worthy.
You are loved.
And that's the ground I thinkI needed to stand on when I
was wading into the sadness.
Because as I waded through it, I realizedthat it was hard to see my mom and
(16:10):
my grandma dealing with Alzheimer's.
That's sort of the immediate sadness.
But it was also about me, too,as I kind of got a little deeper.
I realized I was sad becauseI was losing my role as a kid.
You know, my grandma was forgetting me.
My mom was forgetting me.
My dad was gone.
So those relationships were going away.
(16:32):
And my role as a kid was going away.
And that was sad.
And amidst that, I still felt loved.
I still felt a sense of connection.
And that to me is joy.
I was not happy, but there wassomething supporting that sadness.
And that was the joy.
(16:53):
And I could tap into that along with thegrief and the sadness and the gratitude
for those relationships kind of rose upas well, curiosity for how relationships
are transforming in my life, um,inspiration for my own parenting roles.
So I think joy allows the diversityof mixed emotions to also rise
(17:13):
up instead of that monoculture ofhappiness that forces everything down.
And that's the power of joy.
I think it grounds us, expandsus, and it's in all of us.
That is such a beautiful story, Aimee.
I just want to take it in for a moment.
You know, it's such a great, such agreat example of what we're talking
(17:38):
about here, that real joy lives sideby side with real sadness, real grief,
you know, I imagine you wouldn't havewanted someone to try to take that
sadness from you on the airplane,you know, you wouldn't have wanted
(17:58):
someone to say, oh, hey, are you okay?
You know, it's not, it's going to beall right, just to, because you, there's
just some, you just needed to do that.
You needed to, to feel that.
It's just beautiful.
So yeah, this is exactly what we'rewhat we're trying to point to.
(18:19):
And we can all do this.
That's what we train to do here, right?
yeah,
Yeah.
So, you know, it's just such agood example of, of how healing
and growth can come from fullyfeeling what you're feeling,
even if that, even if it feels hard,even if there's loss in it, and,
(18:41):
and grief is such a good example.
I'm sure that there's just manylayers of grief and what you're, you
know, losing your sense of being akid, losing the grandmother you knew,
your mom that you knew, there's stillgrief around the loss of your dad.
I mean, it's just so many layers,but to be able to fully grieve
(19:01):
it, so you just don't have tocarry it along with you forever.
That's just such a beautiful thing.
And I think, I think that's what we'remeant to do with these kind of, what
we call negative emotions, these hard,heavy emotions that we just, we don't
want to push them out of our life.
(19:22):
We don't need to manufacture thembecause there's plenty of opportunities
for them to come up, but we don'tneed to push them away either.
And also, there's a time, it'ssuch a good reminder, there's a
time for having those deeply feltexperiences alone, on your own.
(19:44):
And there's also an aspect of doingthis together, not in isolation, but,
I mean, you share this experiencewith your sister, with your daughter,
with your, your sister's child.
And, and you're sharing it withus, which is, which we're, I'm
very grateful, very grateful for.
(20:04):
This reminds me of the concept ofthe thin spaces that, um, the Celtic
mythology or spirituality talks aboutthat I think it's just something
we need to remind ourselves of.
And what the thin space means to me isa time in life when there's an opening.
(20:33):
You know, and it can come fromall kinds of things, but most
definitely it can come through thisexperience that you just described.
I mean, just listening toyou, I could sense that there
was a deep opening in that.
I mean, I feel it myself.
And it's that, it's as if the veilis lifted momentarily between our
(20:55):
usual day to day selves and havinga deeper experience of the sacred.
Because, to me, that's where,that's where joy resides.
It's in the great vastness.
And I think an encounter withloss, fear, or great sadness
(21:20):
can really open us up to it.
So, thank you.
Well, thanks for listening, everyone,even if you just didn't have a choice.
But I think, yeah, you're right, Henry.
There's something beautiful in many waysabout those deeply felt emotions when
(21:45):
we have that foundation to also explorethem and navigate them and make our way
through them, not get stuck in them.
And I hope that maybe there'ssome inspiration for you in this
conversation, um, to explore exactlywhat it is that you are experiencing
and to do it with the knowledgeand trust that you are supported.
(22:06):
You are connected.
You are loved.
And you can tap into that joy.
We all have that within us.
And I'm really grateful that we cangather together here at the podcast
and the program to uncover it.
So I want to close with somewisdom from Joseph Campbell.
Maybe sort of summing up what wedo here through the podcast and
(22:28):
program, here's what he said.
"Find a place inside where there's joyand the joy will burn away the pain."
Thank you for listeningto the Joy Lab podcast.
If you enjoy today's show, visitJoyLab.coach to learn more
about the full Joy Lab program.
(22:49):
Be sure to rate and review us whereveryou listen to your favorite podcasts.
Please remember that thiscontent is for informational
and educational purposes only.
It is not intended to provide medicaladvice and is not a replacement for advice
and treatment from a medical professional.
Please consult your doctor orother qualified health professional
before beginning any diet change,supplement, or lifestyle program.
(23:13):
Please see our terms for more information.
Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast,where we help you uncover and
(00:03):
foster your most joyful self.
Your hosts, Dr.
Henry Emmons and Dr.
Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix ofsoulful and scientifically sound tools to
spark your joy, even when it feels dark.
When you're ready to experiment withmore joy, combine this podcast with the
full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
(00:26):
Hello, I'm Henry Emmonsand welcome to Joy Lab.
And I'm Aimee Prasek.
And we're here to help youuncover more of your joy, right?
That's the point of this podcast.
I just want to put that out rightaway because maybe we're going to
be talking about some interestingstuff as well, but it is also 2025.
The 1st episode, Henry and I aretogether to wish you this happy new year.
(00:54):
And we've had some big updatesin several of our past episodes.
This is a really exciting newyear for us all together here
at the podcast and the program.
I guess maybe the first importantpiece of news, if you've missed it,
the Joy Lab program is now open.
So head over to joylab.coach to join us.
Thanks, Aimee.
(01:14):
Yeah.
I would like to remind our listenersof a key foundation of Joy Lab.
If you want more joy in your life,you don't want to leave it to chance.
It might be there one moment,and then gone the next.
What we're trying to build issomething much more enduring.
(01:37):
Something that doesn't dependon what happens on the outside.
Because it's very unreliable.
So, we see joy as a skill.
Something that can bedeveloped and practiced.
And made solid over time.
And also something tobe done in community.
It is an internal practice.
(01:58):
That's true.
But let's learn from all of the wisdomtraditions and from all of the findings
in science that real lasting growthand change happens best when we are
connected, not when we're in isolation.
So we designed the Joy Labprogram to offer these things.
(02:21):
Every week, there's a new practice to helpdeepen the element of joy for that month.
We're constantly working behind thescenes to help create a vibrant,
supportive online community to help youstay on that path to a more joyful life.
And we even design our weeklypodcasts to help strengthen
the deeper work of the program.
(02:42):
So if you like the podcast, wethink you will love the program.
Please check it out.
Yeah.
God, sign me up.
That was awesome.
Thanks, Henry
thought you already were signed up
Sign me up again.
So yeah, in this month of January,here at the podcast and the program,
we focus on our element of inspiration.
(03:04):
And we wanted to dig a bit into what'scalled the happiness paradox at the
start of this new year, because, Ithink it's really helpful information
as we come into a season of inspiration,perhaps resolutions, this conversation
can help us put our goals andfocus in the most beneficial place.
(03:27):
So, the happiness paradox,let me explain it.
It's this really interesting phenomenon.
Where if you value happiness to a highdegree, so you see it as extremely
important and something that needsto be actively pursued at all times,
then as your desire or value forit continues to surge at those high
(03:49):
levels, the worse your outcomesare for emotions in the short term.
And then also for long termhealth outcomes, like well-being
and life satisfaction.
I know, paradox.
So I think it can tell us that much of thepressures around happiness or manifesting
(04:11):
happiness are surprisingly unhelpful.
Like in their extreme, right?
We're told happiness is all that matters.
The pursuit of happiness.
How could that pursuit be bad for us?
But when we sit with it a bit more.
I think it really starts to make sense.
I'll give a few reasons.
When we strive for happiness,it can position happiness as
(04:35):
external and future focused.
So that it's somethingthat exists out there.
It doesn't exist right now inour own sort of environment.
And that once we snag it, we have tohold onto it so tightly, it creates
a kind of rigidity for happiness.
And with that rigidity.
(04:56):
with a hyper focus on happiness, it alsomeans that how you may actually be feeling
may be sad, grief stricken, frustrated,that those things are not okay.
I think that's the kicker.
So we have this overvaluing of happiness.
Um, and then in that overvaluing,it really demands that we stuff
(05:19):
down or ignore other emotions thatwe don't feel are as good, are as
valuable, and if we feel those things,we can perceive it as a failure.
And I think as we talk about ithere, right, those negative emotions
are part of our wiring as well.
They have value in moderation.
And if we see them as failures, we arejust setting ourselves up for failure.
(05:44):
So, Henry, I want to hear more ofyour thoughts on this paradox and
maybe how you see it showing up.
Well, it makes a lot more sense now afterthe the last part of your explanation.
So while I was listening to you,though, I couldn't help but think
but notice, another paradox,
and I wonder if anybody else caught it.
(06:06):
So we just pitched theJoy Lab program, right?
Because we value joy at a highdegree as something important
enough to be actively pursued.
And then you shared with us the researchthat seems to say that's a bad idea.
We do this a lot, don't we?
(06:27):
It's why curiosity is oneof our elements of joy.
Right.
Because you know, if we value it too much,then you're going to have a worse outcome.
So how to make sense of that?
Right, right.
Well, I have a couple of thoughtsand I'd love to hear yours
Yeah, yeah.
So I'm really glad we're talking aboutthis though, because like you, I think
(06:47):
it's just really important information.
The first thought that comes tomind is that whenever something is
pursued with a quality of grasping,it can make you feel worse.
So we see this all the time with materialthings like, like money or items.
(07:09):
If we grasp too tightly, nomatter how much we have, we are
still going to feel miserable.
There is simply never enough to fillthe void if there's a big void there.
But this can happen with pursuitswe think of as more virtuous, too.
I see this frequently with clients,for example, who are trying
(07:31):
to live a healthier lifestyle.
And they sometimes become so rigid aroundtheir food choices, let's say, that
it just takes the joy out of eating.
Or exercise, you know, they exerciseso much that they keep hurting
themselves, like I myself havedone several times in my life.
Although I'm getting better at that.
(07:51):
But the lesson here, Ithink, is to hold it lightly.
You can work hard on something, that's,working hard is not the issue, like,
cultivating the elements of joy,but you can do so without striving,
without that element or that senseof striving or becoming driven by it.
(08:12):
And then as soon as you realize, ifyou, if you can sense that you're
clenching or that you're becomingrigid in your approach, then you
can just see that for what it isand step back and kind of refocus.
So when we're grasping, that's a signthat we feel there's not enough to go
around, that we ourselves are not enough.
(08:33):
Grasping is stressful, and the morestress, the worse our outcomes.
I think that explains to a largedegree that, that research.
Absolutely.
Another thought that I have thoughis that we see joy and happiness
in Joy Lab here, we see them asbeing quite different things.
By our definition, at least, happiness ismore of an emotion, more fleeting, whereas
(08:59):
joy is more of a constant inner state.
So, happiness doesn't last, joy does.
It's enduring.
Happiness depends more on circumstances,being good, being favorable, and also
on us doing the right things, whatwe think are the right things to make
(09:20):
those happen, and I think that's onereason for this happiness paradox you
described is this idea that if we justdo everything right, we should be happy.
I hear this a lot, and our beliefis that we can have joy no matter
what is happening around us.
Joy can exist side by side,simultaneously, with grief,
(09:45):
with loss, with illness.
They're not mutually exclusive.
So there's a steadiness tojoy, a reliability that just
holds us up even when it feelslike things are falling apart.
And it does not come from striving.
It comes more from allowing, notfrom grasping, but from letting go.
(10:10):
And these are sometimes hard conceptsto really, really understand, but I like
the way you put it in the introduction.
We're here to help you uncoverjoy, because it's already there.
And to me, that's the real paradox.
Yeah, I completely agree with your points,our definition of joy versus happiness.
(10:37):
And that the happiness paradoxdoesn't suggest that we do not pursue
good things or growth in our lives.
I think it reminds us that there iswork to do when it comes to growth
and at the same time, like yousaid, we can't hold it too rigidly.
even hold rigid the path we think toget there and then what it's going
(10:59):
to look like on the other side.
Again, that's a big reason why we focuson our 12 elements of joy as well.
We're not trying to create arobotic state of abstract happiness,
eternal sunshine of the spotlessmind is coming to me in that movie.
That's not helpful as the movie portraysand as the happiness paradox notes.
(11:23):
Instead, these elements of joy help usgive attention and practice to these
really tangible positive emotions andinner states that we can build more of.
That feels good.
And it's not in an effort, like you said,to ignore or reject any other emotion
that rises up like sadness or grief,but as a really grounded strategy to
(11:44):
nourish and train our systems to openup and to take in the good as well.
And then to also help us navigatethose more, you know, quote, negative
states that are just as much part ofthis life and that offer value as well.
So I think I want to, I want to share arecent experience that helped me really
(12:06):
tap into this feeling of joy amidstpain and this desire to pursue growth.
I hope it's helpful, because I thinkthis paradox can get confusing as well.
So I kind of touched it, thisparadox, and I want to share it.
So my sister and I, along with ourkiddos, went to California recently
(12:27):
to visit my 95 year old grandma,my daughter's great grandma.
And now I'll give a littlebit more background, actually.
So the day before that, I wastelling my mom about this trip.
And she has Alzheimer's, so I knewshe wouldn't really be able to grasp
the trip, but as I told her that wewere going out to see grandma, my
(12:50):
dad's mom, your husband's mom, I toldher, she just stared blankly at me.
And then she asked, who's your dad?
And I just felt like a punch inthe stomach when she said that.
But I thought I have toomuch to do right now.
I can't feel sad.
I need to get ready for this trip.
(13:12):
So I just kind of stuffed it down.
And so, we catch a flight the next dayto see my grandma, my dad's mom, and
she was also diagnosed with Alzheimer's.
Not a real surprise at 95, butnonetheless, the day, or the last day
that we were there, she was commentingon how she did not enjoy the people
(13:35):
who came to visit her a few days ago.
Which was us.
They're sitting there like,oh, God, do I tell her?
No, that's not helpful.
But I'm like, offended kind of.
And so, and I also wantedto tell her we were there.
We were like, she was wanting usto be there more, but we were, but
(13:57):
then she didn't like who was there.
So I just was, anyway, but she knew,on this last day that we are visiting
that it was us and it was a greatvisit and you know, we're saying
our goodbyes, we turned to leaveand she says, she yells out to us,
"Tell your mom and dad hi!"
And again, it was a punchin the stomach for me.
(14:19):
I hadn't heard that in 25 years.
My dad had died 25 years ago.
Her son had died 25 years ago.
Nobody really tells me to say hi to my momanymore because she doesn't really know.
So I'm sitting on the plane headinghome, kind of crying in the window
(14:39):
seat, just kind of replaying allof this and feeling really sad.
And so if I was caught in thehappiness paradox, I'd dismiss
that pain, that sadness, right?
Kind of like I had done the day before.
Which was okay.
I needed to pack.
I needed to get my stuff together.
But if I continue to stuff itin the corner, trying to be
(15:02):
happy, those corners get full.
And that's a problem.
I have filled those corners before and youcan make a hoarder's house pretty quickly,
full of stuffed down, sadness and anger.
So I knew that wasn't what I needed to do.
And I think here's my point.
I knew that I could handle it.
(15:24):
And so often, I thinkthat's how joy shows up.
It's like, it's not apermanent state of happiness.
It's not a perma party.
I think joy shows up so often, likea calm, grounding voice reminds
us deep, like deep in our bones.
(15:47):
That reminds us, you got this.
You can do hard things.
You are
connected.
You are enough.
You are worthy.
You are loved.
And that's the ground I thinkI needed to stand on when I
was wading into the sadness.
Because as I waded through it, I realizedthat it was hard to see my mom and
(16:10):
my grandma dealing with Alzheimer's.
That's sort of the immediate sadness.
But it was also about me, too,as I kind of got a little deeper.
I realized I was sad becauseI was losing my role as a kid.
You know, my grandma was forgetting me.
My mom was forgetting me.
My dad was gone.
So those relationships were going away.
(16:32):
And my role as a kid was going away.
And that was sad.
And amidst that, I still felt loved.
I still felt a sense of connection.
And that to me is joy.
I was not happy, but there wassomething supporting that sadness.
And that was the joy.
(16:53):
And I could tap into that along with thegrief and the sadness and the gratitude
for those relationships kind of rose upas well, curiosity for how relationships
are transforming in my life, um,inspiration for my own parenting roles.
So I think joy allows the diversityof mixed emotions to also rise
(17:13):
up instead of that monoculture ofhappiness that forces everything down.
And that's the power of joy.
I think it grounds us, expandsus, and it's in all of us.
That is such a beautiful story, Aimee.
I just want to take it in for a moment.
You know, it's such a great, such agreat example of what we're talking
(17:38):
about here, that real joy lives sideby side with real sadness, real grief,
you know, I imagine you wouldn't havewanted someone to try to take that
sadness from you on the airplane,you know, you wouldn't have wanted
(17:58):
someone to say, oh, hey, are you okay?
You know, it's not, it's going to beall right, just to, because you, there's
just some, you just needed to do that.
You needed to, to feel that.
It's just beautiful.
So yeah, this is exactly what we'rewhat we're trying to point to.
(18:19):
And we can all do this.
That's what we train to do here, right?
yeah,
Yeah.
So, you know, it's just such agood example of, of how healing
and growth can come from fullyfeeling what you're feeling,
even if that, even if it feels hard,even if there's loss in it, and,
(18:41):
and grief is such a good example.
I'm sure that there's just manylayers of grief and what you're, you
know, losing your sense of being akid, losing the grandmother you knew,
your mom that you knew, there's stillgrief around the loss of your dad.
I mean, it's just so many layers,but to be able to fully grieve
(19:01):
it, so you just don't have tocarry it along with you forever.
That's just such a beautiful thing.
And I think, I think that's what we'remeant to do with these kind of, what
we call negative emotions, these hard,heavy emotions that we just, we don't
want to push them out of our life.
(19:22):
We don't need to manufacture thembecause there's plenty of opportunities
for them to come up, but we don'tneed to push them away either.
And also, there's a time, it'ssuch a good reminder, there's a
time for having those deeply feltexperiences alone, on your own.
(19:44):
And there's also an aspect of doingthis together, not in isolation, but,
I mean, you share this experiencewith your sister, with your daughter,
with your, your sister's child.
And, and you're sharing it withus, which is, which we're, I'm
very grateful, very grateful for.
(20:04):
This reminds me of the concept ofthe thin spaces that, um, the Celtic
mythology or spirituality talks aboutthat I think it's just something
we need to remind ourselves of.
And what the thin space means to me isa time in life when there's an opening.
(20:33):
You know, and it can come fromall kinds of things, but most
definitely it can come through thisexperience that you just described.
I mean, just listening toyou, I could sense that there
was a deep opening in that.
I mean, I feel it myself.
And it's that, it's as if the veilis lifted momentarily between our
(20:55):
usual day to day selves and havinga deeper experience of the sacred.
Because, to me, that's where,that's where joy resides.
It's in the great vastness.
And I think an encounter withloss, fear, or great sadness
(21:20):
can really open us up to it.
So, thank you.
Well, thanks for listening, everyone,even if you just didn't have a choice.
But I think, yeah, you're right, Henry.
There's something beautiful in many waysabout those deeply felt emotions when
(21:45):
we have that foundation to also explorethem and navigate them and make our way
through them, not get stuck in them.
And I hope that maybe there'ssome inspiration for you in this
conversation, um, to explore exactlywhat it is that you are experiencing
and to do it with the knowledgeand trust that you are supported.
(22:06):
You are connected.
You are loved.
And you can tap into that joy.
We all have that within us.
And I'm really grateful that we cangather together here at the podcast
and the program to uncover it.
So I want to close with somewisdom from Joseph Campbell.
Maybe sort of summing up what wedo here through the podcast and
(22:28):
program, here's what he said.
"Find a place inside where there's joyand the joy will burn away the pain."
Thank you for listeningto the Joy Lab podcast.
If you enjoy today's show, visitJoyLab.coach to learn more
about the full Joy Lab program.
(22:49):
Be sure to rate and review us whereveryou listen to your favorite podcasts.
Please remember that thiscontent is for informational
and educational purposes only.
It is not intended to provide medicaladvice and is not a replacement for advice
and treatment from a medical professional.
Please consult your doctor orother qualified health professional
before beginning any diet change,supplement, or lifestyle program.
(23:13):
Please see our terms for more information.
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