January 22, 2025 • 22 mins
What do courage, inspiration, burnout, and the soul have in common? A lot, actually. We'll dig into the 'Courage Work' framework developed by author and teacher Parker Palmer and how it can help us navigate out of burnout and create space for inspiration and renewal. We'll also get into some important details about the causes of burnout, the importance of deep listening and soul work, and how some of the most powerful aspects of our courage show up in surprisingly quiet ways.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast,where we help you uncover and
(00:03):
foster your most joyful self.
Your hosts, Dr.
Henry Emmons and Dr.
Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix ofsoulful and scientifically sound tools to
spark your joy, even when it feels dark.
When you're ready to experiment withmore joy, combine this podcast with the
full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
(00:26):
Hello, I'm Henry Emmonsand welcome to Joy Lab.
And,
And I'm Aimee Prasek, and we are heretogether working on our element of
inspiration for this month of January.
Here at the podcast, we'redoing it and even more so, I'd
say, at the Joy Lab program.
So inspiration doesn't geta whole lot of attention.
(00:48):
when it comes to mental health,but it is a powerful element and
it is something that we all crave.
Inspiration is understood to be botha motivational state and a complex
emotion, so it usually shows up asa new idea or creative insight that
kind of arrives to us so we can'tforce it and it feels expansive and
(01:12):
connecting at the same time and it'sfull of energy to propel us forward.
So again, I think we all want this.
We're wired for inspiration, to really seesomething new, to create something better.
to feel this kind of drivefor purpose and meaning.
And I'll say being open to allof that takes a lot of courage.
(01:38):
I think inspiration requires us to dosome surrendering, really, to give up
some control over what we think our ownset plan might be or what we're grasping
onto and to make space for somethingelse, something new, something different.
And that is just not always so easy.
(01:59):
It takes a lot of courage.
So that's what we're getting into today.
How can we summon up courage and in a waythat makes more space for inspiration?
And we're going to lean on,I think, would you call it a
framework, Henry, for courage?
Okay,
a way of, a way of workingwith that, let's say.
(02:19):
Awesome.
Okay, so this is a way ofworking with courage from author
and teacher Parker Palmer.
He calls it courage work.
And Henry, you've actually workedthrough this framework with Parker,
Mm hmm.
I thought if you could walk usthrough kind of pieces of it so that
we can get a better idea of whatit is and how we can apply it into
(02:43):
our lives, that would be awesome.
And those of you in the Joy Labprogram, just to note, this is some
wisdom, this is a framework thatactually sits really nicely with
your experiments for this month.
So, Henry, let's start off with the basicsof Courage Work and how you got into it.
Happy to.
And before I even do that, let me justsay that if, if any of you are interested
(03:06):
in this, either already or by the endof this, this episode, check it out.
You, I think you would love it.
Courage Work is just so enriching andit can work on so many different levels.
The place to go to find out more isthe Center for Courage and Renewal,
but it's just a fabulous way ofworking with things internally.
(03:29):
So, I first learned aboutCourage Work, gosh, a long time
ago, um, when I attended a talk
by Parker Palmer, and he foundedthe Center for Courage and Renewal.
So, turns out Parker, was a graduateof Carlton College, which happens
to be in the town where I live.
(03:50):
And several years ago, he was invited tothe college to give a keynote address.
I heard about it.
I knew about him because of a book thathe wrote called Let Your Life Speak,
and it's just one of these small, nicelybound, beautiful, inspirational books
that had just a huge impact on my life.
(04:13):
And so, when I heard he was coming,I did not want to miss his talk.
Now, this happened at a timein my life when I was about to
start a sabbatical year, somethingnot often done by physicians.
But I had just received a Bush fellowshipthat was specifically intended to give
physicians in the middle of their careersan opportunity to take a sabbatical-
(04:36):
a year away, away from their medicalpractice and immerse ourselves in learning
something different than we'd learnedin our training that might enlarge
and enrich our work going forward.
So I had already chosen threethings I wanted to focus on.
One was more effective naturalapproaches for mental health.
(05:01):
Second was how to integratemindfulness skills better into
the support of mental health.
And then the third was tohelp health professionals
prevent or recover from burnout.
This was motivated in large partbecause I had already been struggling
with burnout, even though I wasstill pretty early in my career.
(05:25):
So if you've listened to many of ourepisodes before, you might have heard
me speak to my ambivalence, my deepambivalence about, oh gosh, I'm telling
you, about a career in medicine.
And, as I look back on it, it wasjust there from the very start.
I, I, I wanted this choice to beright for me, but it just wasn't.
(05:49):
I didn't resonate with modern medicineas it was being practiced, as I
saw and learned it being practiced.
I was so much more interested inthings like fitness, nutrition,
mind body skills, the stuff thatwe then called holistic medicine.
So in my training, I found a few ways todally in these topics, but frankly, there
(06:14):
wasn't much time or energy to do that.
So I just had to keep going kind ofsuppress it and try to stay up with
a massive amount of learning thatwas required, which I can tell you
was most definitely not holistic.
So I was also drawn to spirituality andto people's stories and what was going
on at a deeper level on the inside.
(06:38):
I imagine that's why Iended up in psychiatry.
It's kind of hard to understand, all thechoices we make when we're young, but
I'm sure that was a big, a big driver.
And I'd hoped that I'd, I'dfind room for those things in
the practice of psychiatry.
But when I got to that training,I found out again, that the topics
that felt richer to me were mostlysqueezed out of the curriculum.
(07:03):
You know, psychiatry was trying to bejust like the rest of medicine, which
was mostly about disease and medicationsor procedures to treat disease.
Nothing wrong with that, by the way.
It just didn't resonate for me.
When I look back on it, I realizehow resilient I had to be in order
(07:26):
to make it through all of those yearsof training with my heart not in it.
I also have come to realize that beinghighly resilient, while it's a great
asset, it does have its drawbacks,because you can go down the wrong path
for a very long time before burnout ordepression or something else wakes you
(07:49):
up and makes you consider the possibilitythat you should take a different path.
Yeah.
We've talked about doingsome more episodes on this.
there's a really important reason whyresilience is one of our elements of joy.
but there's a lot of otherelements along with it, right?
That can, nurture that journeyof resilience because on its
(08:12):
own, resilience doesn't meanit's going to be joyful or happy.
Um, so I want, I want to highlight whatyou said for a moment about burnout.
I think it's interesting because there's areally common component of burnout that is
related here, related to just what I wasnoting too, and what you were noting about
(08:34):
the downsides of resilience, I think.
and we don't talk about it a lot when itcomes to this conversation of burnout,
which really just gets stuck into thisdefinition of just working too hard.
I'm just working to the ends of mycapacity, which can create burnout.
But this other piece that is reallycommon, it's described as having
feelings of low personal accomplishment.
(08:57):
So we work really hard, butwe don't feel effective.
Which can lead to a kind of learnedhelplessness, a state of learned
helplessness, where we feel likenothing we do is right or right
for us at work, and that it'snot producing anything positive.
And when we're stuck in that, thestress and depression can really surge
(09:21):
in that state of learned helplessness.
And with that component, that component offeelings of low personal accomplishment,
burnout can get really gnarly.
You can get really stuck in it.
so we need to do more on burnout aswell, conversations around those,
but if those of you are listening,are thinking that you are unique in
(09:42):
your burnout, I would just like tosay, welcome to the very large club
and we can do something about it.
We are getting into that hereand we'll do some more later.
Aimee, I, as an aside, I just thoughtof this, research that I came across
when I was, recently when I was studyingphysician burnout, physician, specifically
(10:03):
for physicians, and what they saidin this, their findings was that,
having a sense of meaning and purpose,which is kind of like, feeling that
there's some personal accomplishment, I
think, in what you do.
That, that, that's a really importantcomponent, but in order to be enough,
you only need it in about, about 15to 20 percent of the time, in other
(10:26):
words, you don't have to, like, nail it.
It doesn't have to be the perfectjob or the perfect career, but you do
need a little.
a little goes a long way.
That is, that offers freedom.
That
it's the only way it could be.
yeah, I found that to be really helpful.
So, anyway, back to ParkerPalmer and Courage Work.
(10:48):
So, the book of his that I mentioned,Let Your Life Speak, included his
own personal story of depression.
And he wrote about it, and he speaksabout it so honestly and beautifully,
that it's just, I found it really moving.
And I remember one concept from thebook, I think he called it When Door
(11:09):
Closes or When Way Closes, and it
had to
Hmm.
do with listening to what we think areour failures, or when we have hit a wall
like I had, and you just can no longersee a way forward when you are stuck.
And it seems as if that particularpath has been closed to you.
(11:34):
So you have to find a doorwaythat's open and one that leads
perhaps to a different path.
That's where I felt I was in my career.
Door closed.
On the outside, I think itlooked like I was doing fine.
Maybe even looked like there waspersonal accomplishment I could
feel good about.
But on the inside, I knew I justcouldn't continue like this.
(11:58):
Now, I was only seven yearsinto my career, which was the
definition of the Bush Fellowshipfor early or for, for mid career
Does that say somethingabout turnover and burnout?
Everybody's fried at 15.
well, it said something about me.
I jumped on it the moment I could.
so it was still kind of early, but Ifelt like I was working very hard in a
(12:20):
system whose role for the psychiatristfelt way too small for me personally.
And something in me just said, no, enough.
I am not going to
go any further like this.
So the Bush Fellowship, frankly,gave me kind of a graceful exit and a
(12:41):
chance to find that door that was opento me, like a more authentic path.
Now back to that lecture that I attended.
I think it was about 25 years ago, almostexactly, Parker talked about courage work,
which he had started initially in orderto help school teachers working in the
K through 12 public school system who Ifound were struggling with burnout just as
(13:06):
much as health professionals, by the way,and oddly for a lot of the same reasons.
So in his talk, though, he spoke aboutthis program that was all geared toward
professional renewal and I loved itbecause it wasn't focused on stress
reduction like so many programs wereand, and still are, but it was really
(13:30):
focused on taking a good deep look insidethrough something called deep listening.
By doing soul work.
And I tell you, this wasjust all music to my ears.
So, listening to this lecture, heused a phrase near the end that
just made one of these proverbiallightbulbs go off inside of me.
(13:54):
He was trying to sum up his talkand he just said, basically, what
we're doing here is we're workingwith the inner life of teachers.
And I knew right then, in thatmoment, I wanted to start a program
called The Inner Life of Healers.
I love that.
maybe this is the obvious.
Henry, this light bulb moment.
Did you feel like that wasinspiration kind of knocking?
(14:16):
Well, in retrospect, yes,I think that's what it was.
And it's not like this happensto me all the time, by the way.
That was kind of a rareand exceptional thing.
But it was funny to me,the degree of certainty
that I had.
This was right.
That, there just was no question.
(14:37):
There was no, none of my usual hemmingand hawing and, internal debate about
the pros and cons and all of that.
It was, it was just like,okay, this is, this is it.
this is what I'm going to do.
Yeah.
So after that talk, Idid something I never do.
I waited to speak with him.
(14:59):
After his talk, I went up to him andtold him, what I was interested in.
And, and he listened, very politely.
And he suggested that I, if Iwas really interested, I come
to one of their trainings.
Now, to that date, they'd nevertrained any health professionals.
although the work, the purpose ofthe work is professional renewal.
It, it doesn't really matterwhat profession you're in.
(15:21):
It just cuts through allof that very, very quickly.
It's really just about being a humanbeing and being authentically yourself
in whatever it is that you're doing.
So that's what reallydrew me to this work.
It's that notion oflistening to true self.
Your authentic inner voice and maybethat is kind of the equivalent of
(15:45):
inspiration, at least for me is, you
know, that's sort of what I'mlooking for when I don't have it.
And when it's there, it's honestly, itdoesn't even seem like that big of a deal.
It just feels right.
You know, it feels true.
Now, good therapy, of course.
course can get us there too.
but I think there's just somethingprecious to me about this, this
(16:07):
kind of work, this courage work,at least in that time of my life.
I, I, and I just knew that Icould not do this all alone.
I couldn't figure this out all by myself.
And one of the beautiful things about themodel for courage work is that all of this
reflection and introspection, it's donein a small very intentional community that
(16:31):
exists only for a short time and only forthat purpose, which is just super freeing.
I think
Yeah.
so for the next couple of years,about every 3 months, I traveled
to Washington state, went to a niceretreat center, spent several days with
the same 24 people every time we met.
We met eight times,long, extended retreats.
(16:54):
And again, other than myself, everybodywas an educator, but that just that
professional veneer wasn't even therefrom like the very first session.
We're just people being openand vulnerable with one another.
And, just briefly, I'll describethe rhythm to this work that
I just fell in love with.
So the days were divided roughly intofour, maybe five working sessions.
(17:20):
that each lasted maybe an hour anda half to two hours, and each one
had its own topic to work with.
Typically, the leaders would open asession with a reading or a poem or a
story, and then often a few teachingcomments or instructions for the, for
whatever activity was going to follow.
Then the group might take some timeto do some personal reflection, maybe
(17:45):
journaling or drawing, or just sittingby yourself quietly and thinking.
Typically, that would be followedby some small group sharing, just a
group of three to five people whereeverybody would get a chance to speak.
And then from there, the discussionwould go to the whole group.
And so it was this, this rhythmthat felt like breathing almost.
(18:08):
It's like the in and out, you'regoing inward, then you're going
outward, then you go inward again.
And it was just, I just loved it.
And I also loved how much emphasis theyplaced on learning to listen deeply.
So I just learned so much moreabout genuine listening than I had
(18:29):
through any of my other training.
There is an art to letting anotherperson speak what is really true
for them while you, the listener,are not holding any judgment.
You're not even trying to help themand you're, you're learning not to
get caught up in, in reflecting howthis relates to me and my story, so it
(18:53):
just focused on the, theperson who's speaking.
You know, as the physician and a lotof other professionals were trained
to, diagnose a problem and fix it.
And there's a place for that, butthat is not genuine or deep listening.
So it was really powerful for me tosee what happens when someone is given
(19:14):
the space to speak from a deeper place.
And it's, you're held only by theattention and kindliness of the people.
listening to you.
So I came to see courage work as soulwork, which is just something I love.
And I learned that to approach thisthing we call the soul requires a
(19:38):
different pace and different methodsfrom how we approach most of our lives.
For me at least, it's bestapproached indirectly, like through
a poem or a story or music or art.
And it needs its own space, and there'sa different relationship with time.
The best way I've come to think of it,this kind of relationship with the soul,
(20:03):
which to me is the real core of couragework, is that it's kind of like creating
a deep friendship, a lasting friendship.
It doesn't usually happen by chance.
It might at the start, but over time it'sgot to be nurtured and cultivated in order
to become something really beautiful.
Hmm.
(20:23):
Soul work.
Thanks for sharing that.
there's a couple of pieces in there.
First you're bringing up allof this wonderful, conversation
on listening deeply.
We have a great episode on that.
So I'm going to put that in theshow notes where we dig into kind
of listening deeply 101 practice.
So if that's really stirringyour soul, that might be a
(20:46):
great place to dive in next.
I think also, what's coming up for meis that when we're talking about courage
I think that concept usually showsup in our mind with tenacity like G.
I.
Jane, hard, like goafter it kind of stuff.
(21:08):
And that's just not how courage showsup most of the time, I would say,
or at least all the time, obviously.
I think courage is really aboutso often our inner work rather
than those outer charges.
So next episode, we'll actually sharea Dialogue With Your Soul experiment.
Dialogue With Your Soul is the fourthexperiment that we do in the Joy Lab
(21:31):
program and we want to share it withyou all as a taste of the program.
So those of you who are not with us inthe Joy Lab program to kind of get a
taste for it and also as a tool to tapinto your courage in this kind of more
seemingly subtle, but super powerful way.
(21:52):
So to close our time today, I want toshare some inspiration from Parker Palmer,
some motivation to do this important work.
Here it is.
"Anytime we can listen to true selfand give it the care it requires, we
do it not only for ourselves, but forthe many others whose lives we touch."
(22:17):
Thank you for listeningto the Joy Lab podcast.
If you enjoy today's show, visitJoyLab.coach to learn more
about the full Joy Lab program.
Be sure to rate and review us whereveryou listen to your favorite podcasts.
Please remember that thiscontent is for informational
and educational purposes only.
It is not intended to provide medicaladvice and is not a replacement for advice
(22:39):
and treatment from a medical professional.
Please consult your doctor orother qualified health professional
before beginning any diet change,supplement, or lifestyle program.
Please see our terms for more information.
Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast,where we help you uncover and
(00:03):
foster your most joyful self.
Your hosts, Dr.
Henry Emmons and Dr.
Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix ofsoulful and scientifically sound tools to
spark your joy, even when it feels dark.
When you're ready to experiment withmore joy, combine this podcast with the
full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
(00:26):
Hello, I'm Henry Emmonsand welcome to Joy Lab.
And,
And I'm Aimee Prasek, and we are heretogether working on our element of
inspiration for this month of January.
Here at the podcast, we'redoing it and even more so, I'd
say, at the Joy Lab program.
So inspiration doesn't geta whole lot of attention.
(00:48):
when it comes to mental health,but it is a powerful element and
it is something that we all crave.
Inspiration is understood to be botha motivational state and a complex
emotion, so it usually shows up asa new idea or creative insight that
kind of arrives to us so we can'tforce it and it feels expansive and
(01:12):
connecting at the same time and it'sfull of energy to propel us forward.
So again, I think we all want this.
We're wired for inspiration, to really seesomething new, to create something better.
to feel this kind of drivefor purpose and meaning.
And I'll say being open to allof that takes a lot of courage.
(01:38):
I think inspiration requires us to dosome surrendering, really, to give up
some control over what we think our ownset plan might be or what we're grasping
onto and to make space for somethingelse, something new, something different.
And that is just not always so easy.
(01:59):
It takes a lot of courage.
So that's what we're getting into today.
How can we summon up courage and in a waythat makes more space for inspiration?
And we're going to lean on,I think, would you call it a
framework, Henry, for courage?
Okay,
a way of, a way of workingwith that, let's say.
(02:19):
Awesome.
Okay, so this is a way ofworking with courage from author
and teacher Parker Palmer.
He calls it courage work.
And Henry, you've actually workedthrough this framework with Parker,
Mm hmm.
I thought if you could walk usthrough kind of pieces of it so that
we can get a better idea of whatit is and how we can apply it into
(02:43):
our lives, that would be awesome.
And those of you in the Joy Labprogram, just to note, this is some
wisdom, this is a framework thatactually sits really nicely with
your experiments for this month.
So, Henry, let's start off with the basicsof Courage Work and how you got into it.
Happy to.
And before I even do that, let me justsay that if, if any of you are interested
(03:06):
in this, either already or by the endof this, this episode, check it out.
You, I think you would love it.
Courage Work is just so enriching andit can work on so many different levels.
The place to go to find out more isthe Center for Courage and Renewal,
but it's just a fabulous way ofworking with things internally.
(03:29):
So, I first learned aboutCourage Work, gosh, a long time
ago, um, when I attended a talk
by Parker Palmer, and he foundedthe Center for Courage and Renewal.
So, turns out Parker, was a graduateof Carlton College, which happens
to be in the town where I live.
(03:50):
And several years ago, he was invited tothe college to give a keynote address.
I heard about it.
I knew about him because of a book thathe wrote called Let Your Life Speak,
and it's just one of these small, nicelybound, beautiful, inspirational books
that had just a huge impact on my life.
(04:13):
And so, when I heard he was coming,I did not want to miss his talk.
Now, this happened at a timein my life when I was about to
start a sabbatical year, somethingnot often done by physicians.
But I had just received a Bush fellowshipthat was specifically intended to give
physicians in the middle of their careersan opportunity to take a sabbatical-
(04:36):
a year away, away from their medicalpractice and immerse ourselves in learning
something different than we'd learnedin our training that might enlarge
and enrich our work going forward.
So I had already chosen threethings I wanted to focus on.
One was more effective naturalapproaches for mental health.
(05:01):
Second was how to integratemindfulness skills better into
the support of mental health.
And then the third was tohelp health professionals
prevent or recover from burnout.
This was motivated in large partbecause I had already been struggling
with burnout, even though I wasstill pretty early in my career.
(05:25):
So if you've listened to many of ourepisodes before, you might have heard
me speak to my ambivalence, my deepambivalence about, oh gosh, I'm telling
you, about a career in medicine.
And, as I look back on it, it wasjust there from the very start.
I, I, I wanted this choice to beright for me, but it just wasn't.
(05:49):
I didn't resonate with modern medicineas it was being practiced, as I
saw and learned it being practiced.
I was so much more interested inthings like fitness, nutrition,
mind body skills, the stuff thatwe then called holistic medicine.
So in my training, I found a few ways todally in these topics, but frankly, there
(06:14):
wasn't much time or energy to do that.
So I just had to keep going kind ofsuppress it and try to stay up with
a massive amount of learning thatwas required, which I can tell you
was most definitely not holistic.
So I was also drawn to spirituality andto people's stories and what was going
on at a deeper level on the inside.
(06:38):
I imagine that's why Iended up in psychiatry.
It's kind of hard to understand, all thechoices we make when we're young, but
I'm sure that was a big, a big driver.
And I'd hoped that I'd, I'dfind room for those things in
the practice of psychiatry.
But when I got to that training,I found out again, that the topics
that felt richer to me were mostlysqueezed out of the curriculum.
(07:03):
You know, psychiatry was trying to bejust like the rest of medicine, which
was mostly about disease and medicationsor procedures to treat disease.
Nothing wrong with that, by the way.
It just didn't resonate for me.
When I look back on it, I realizehow resilient I had to be in order
(07:26):
to make it through all of those yearsof training with my heart not in it.
I also have come to realize that beinghighly resilient, while it's a great
asset, it does have its drawbacks,because you can go down the wrong path
for a very long time before burnout ordepression or something else wakes you
(07:49):
up and makes you consider the possibilitythat you should take a different path.
Yeah.
We've talked about doingsome more episodes on this.
there's a really important reason whyresilience is one of our elements of joy.
but there's a lot of otherelements along with it, right?
That can, nurture that journeyof resilience because on its
(08:12):
own, resilience doesn't meanit's going to be joyful or happy.
Um, so I want, I want to highlight whatyou said for a moment about burnout.
I think it's interesting because there's areally common component of burnout that is
related here, related to just what I wasnoting too, and what you were noting about
(08:34):
the downsides of resilience, I think.
and we don't talk about it a lot when itcomes to this conversation of burnout,
which really just gets stuck into thisdefinition of just working too hard.
I'm just working to the ends of mycapacity, which can create burnout.
But this other piece that is reallycommon, it's described as having
feelings of low personal accomplishment.
(08:57):
So we work really hard, butwe don't feel effective.
Which can lead to a kind of learnedhelplessness, a state of learned
helplessness, where we feel likenothing we do is right or right
for us at work, and that it'snot producing anything positive.
And when we're stuck in that, thestress and depression can really surge
(09:21):
in that state of learned helplessness.
And with that component, that component offeelings of low personal accomplishment,
burnout can get really gnarly.
You can get really stuck in it.
so we need to do more on burnout aswell, conversations around those,
but if those of you are listening,are thinking that you are unique in
(09:42):
your burnout, I would just like tosay, welcome to the very large club
and we can do something about it.
We are getting into that hereand we'll do some more later.
Aimee, I, as an aside, I just thoughtof this, research that I came across
when I was, recently when I was studyingphysician burnout, physician, specifically
(10:03):
for physicians, and what they saidin this, their findings was that,
having a sense of meaning and purpose,which is kind of like, feeling that
there's some personal accomplishment, I
think, in what you do.
That, that, that's a really importantcomponent, but in order to be enough,
you only need it in about, about 15to 20 percent of the time, in other
(10:26):
words, you don't have to, like, nail it.
It doesn't have to be the perfectjob or the perfect career, but you do
need a little.
a little goes a long way.
That is, that offers freedom.
That
it's the only way it could be.
yeah, I found that to be really helpful.
So, anyway, back to ParkerPalmer and Courage Work.
(10:48):
So, the book of his that I mentioned,Let Your Life Speak, included his
own personal story of depression.
And he wrote about it, and he speaksabout it so honestly and beautifully,
that it's just, I found it really moving.
And I remember one concept from thebook, I think he called it When Door
(11:09):
Closes or When Way Closes, and it
had to
Hmm.
do with listening to what we think areour failures, or when we have hit a wall
like I had, and you just can no longersee a way forward when you are stuck.
And it seems as if that particularpath has been closed to you.
(11:34):
So you have to find a doorwaythat's open and one that leads
perhaps to a different path.
That's where I felt I was in my career.
Door closed.
On the outside, I think itlooked like I was doing fine.
Maybe even looked like there waspersonal accomplishment I could
feel good about.
But on the inside, I knew I justcouldn't continue like this.
(11:58):
Now, I was only seven yearsinto my career, which was the
definition of the Bush Fellowshipfor early or for, for mid career
Does that say somethingabout turnover and burnout?
Everybody's fried at 15.
well, it said something about me.
I jumped on it the moment I could.
so it was still kind of early, but Ifelt like I was working very hard in a
(12:20):
system whose role for the psychiatristfelt way too small for me personally.
And something in me just said, no, enough.
I am not going to
go any further like this.
So the Bush Fellowship, frankly,gave me kind of a graceful exit and a
(12:41):
chance to find that door that was opento me, like a more authentic path.
Now back to that lecture that I attended.
I think it was about 25 years ago, almostexactly, Parker talked about courage work,
which he had started initially in orderto help school teachers working in the
K through 12 public school system who Ifound were struggling with burnout just as
(13:06):
much as health professionals, by the way,and oddly for a lot of the same reasons.
So in his talk, though, he spoke aboutthis program that was all geared toward
professional renewal and I loved itbecause it wasn't focused on stress
reduction like so many programs wereand, and still are, but it was really
(13:30):
focused on taking a good deep look insidethrough something called deep listening.
By doing soul work.
And I tell you, this wasjust all music to my ears.
So, listening to this lecture, heused a phrase near the end that
just made one of these proverbiallightbulbs go off inside of me.
(13:54):
He was trying to sum up his talkand he just said, basically, what
we're doing here is we're workingwith the inner life of teachers.
And I knew right then, in thatmoment, I wanted to start a program
called The Inner Life of Healers.
I love that.
maybe this is the obvious.
Henry, this light bulb moment.
Did you feel like that wasinspiration kind of knocking?
(14:16):
Well, in retrospect, yes,I think that's what it was.
And it's not like this happensto me all the time, by the way.
That was kind of a rareand exceptional thing.
But it was funny to me,the degree of certainty
that I had.
This was right.
That, there just was no question.
(14:37):
There was no, none of my usual hemmingand hawing and, internal debate about
the pros and cons and all of that.
It was, it was just like,okay, this is, this is it.
this is what I'm going to do.
Yeah.
So after that talk, Idid something I never do.
I waited to speak with him.
(14:59):
After his talk, I went up to him andtold him, what I was interested in.
And, and he listened, very politely.
And he suggested that I, if Iwas really interested, I come
to one of their trainings.
Now, to that date, they'd nevertrained any health professionals.
although the work, the purpose ofthe work is professional renewal.
It, it doesn't really matterwhat profession you're in.
(15:21):
It just cuts through allof that very, very quickly.
It's really just about being a humanbeing and being authentically yourself
in whatever it is that you're doing.
So that's what reallydrew me to this work.
It's that notion oflistening to true self.
Your authentic inner voice and maybethat is kind of the equivalent of
(15:45):
inspiration, at least for me is, you
know, that's sort of what I'mlooking for when I don't have it.
And when it's there, it's honestly, itdoesn't even seem like that big of a deal.
It just feels right.
You know, it feels true.
Now, good therapy, of course.
course can get us there too.
but I think there's just somethingprecious to me about this, this
(16:07):
kind of work, this courage work,at least in that time of my life.
I, I, and I just knew that Icould not do this all alone.
I couldn't figure this out all by myself.
And one of the beautiful things about themodel for courage work is that all of this
reflection and introspection, it's donein a small very intentional community that
(16:31):
exists only for a short time and only forthat purpose, which is just super freeing.
I think
Yeah.
so for the next couple of years,about every 3 months, I traveled
to Washington state, went to a niceretreat center, spent several days with
the same 24 people every time we met.
We met eight times,long, extended retreats.
(16:54):
And again, other than myself, everybodywas an educator, but that just that
professional veneer wasn't even therefrom like the very first session.
We're just people being openand vulnerable with one another.
And, just briefly, I'll describethe rhythm to this work that
I just fell in love with.
So the days were divided roughly intofour, maybe five working sessions.
(17:20):
that each lasted maybe an hour anda half to two hours, and each one
had its own topic to work with.
Typically, the leaders would open asession with a reading or a poem or a
story, and then often a few teachingcomments or instructions for the, for
whatever activity was going to follow.
Then the group might take some timeto do some personal reflection, maybe
(17:45):
journaling or drawing, or just sittingby yourself quietly and thinking.
Typically, that would be followedby some small group sharing, just a
group of three to five people whereeverybody would get a chance to speak.
And then from there, the discussionwould go to the whole group.
And so it was this, this rhythmthat felt like breathing almost.
(18:08):
It's like the in and out, you'regoing inward, then you're going
outward, then you go inward again.
And it was just, I just loved it.
And I also loved how much emphasis theyplaced on learning to listen deeply.
So I just learned so much moreabout genuine listening than I had
(18:29):
through any of my other training.
There is an art to letting anotherperson speak what is really true
for them while you, the listener,are not holding any judgment.
You're not even trying to help themand you're, you're learning not to
get caught up in, in reflecting howthis relates to me and my story, so it
(18:53):
just focused on the, theperson who's speaking.
You know, as the physician and a lotof other professionals were trained
to, diagnose a problem and fix it.
And there's a place for that, butthat is not genuine or deep listening.
So it was really powerful for me tosee what happens when someone is given
(19:14):
the space to speak from a deeper place.
And it's, you're held only by theattention and kindliness of the people.
listening to you.
So I came to see courage work as soulwork, which is just something I love.
And I learned that to approach thisthing we call the soul requires a
(19:38):
different pace and different methodsfrom how we approach most of our lives.
For me at least, it's bestapproached indirectly, like through
a poem or a story or music or art.
And it needs its own space, and there'sa different relationship with time.
The best way I've come to think of it,this kind of relationship with the soul,
(20:03):
which to me is the real core of couragework, is that it's kind of like creating
a deep friendship, a lasting friendship.
It doesn't usually happen by chance.
It might at the start, but over time it'sgot to be nurtured and cultivated in order
to become something really beautiful.
Hmm.
(20:23):
Soul work.
Thanks for sharing that.
there's a couple of pieces in there.
First you're bringing up allof this wonderful, conversation
on listening deeply.
We have a great episode on that.
So I'm going to put that in theshow notes where we dig into kind
of listening deeply 101 practice.
So if that's really stirringyour soul, that might be a
(20:46):
great place to dive in next.
I think also, what's coming up for meis that when we're talking about courage
I think that concept usually showsup in our mind with tenacity like G.
I.
Jane, hard, like goafter it kind of stuff.
(21:08):
And that's just not how courage showsup most of the time, I would say,
or at least all the time, obviously.
I think courage is really aboutso often our inner work rather
than those outer charges.
So next episode, we'll actually sharea Dialogue With Your Soul experiment.
Dialogue With Your Soul is the fourthexperiment that we do in the Joy Lab
(21:31):
program and we want to share it withyou all as a taste of the program.
So those of you who are not with us inthe Joy Lab program to kind of get a
taste for it and also as a tool to tapinto your courage in this kind of more
seemingly subtle, but super powerful way.
(21:52):
So to close our time today, I want toshare some inspiration from Parker Palmer,
some motivation to do this important work.
Here it is.
"Anytime we can listen to true selfand give it the care it requires, we
do it not only for ourselves, but forthe many others whose lives we touch."
(22:17):
Thank you for listeningto the Joy Lab podcast.
If you enjoy today's show, visitJoyLab.coach to learn more
about the full Joy Lab program.
Be sure to rate and review us whereveryou listen to your favorite podcasts.
Please remember that thiscontent is for informational
and educational purposes only.
It is not intended to provide medicaladvice and is not a replacement for advice
(22:39):
and treatment from a medical professional.
Please consult your doctor orother qualified health professional
before beginning any diet change,supplement, or lifestyle program.
Please see our terms for more information.
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