April 16, 2025 • 21 mins
In this episode, we dive deep into the pesky world of rumination—the habit of replaying worries, regrets, or anxieties in your mind. Learn the science behind the default mode network (DMN) and understand how it sparks these thought loops. We'll share some personal anecdotes and provide practical strategies to manage rumination, from engaging in focused tasks and reframing your thoughts to simply ignoring those relentless midnight musings.
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Sources and Notes:
- Joy Lab Program: Take the next leap in your wellbeing journey with step-by-step practices to help you build and maintain the elements of joy in your life.
- Benning, S. D., & Ait Oumeziane, B. (2017). Reduced positive emotion and underarousal are uniquely associated with subclinical depression symptoms: Evidence from psychophysiology, self-report, and symptom clusters. Psychophysiology, 54(7), 1010–1030. https://doi.org/10.1111/psyp.12853
Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program.
Please see our terms for more information.
If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call the NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-6264 available Monday through Friday, 10 a.m. – 10 p.m., ET. OR text "HelpLine" to 62640 or email NAMI at helpline@nami.org. Visit NAMI for more. You can also call or text SAMHSA at 988 or chat 988lifeline.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast,where we help you uncover and
(00:03):
foster your most joyful self.
Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr.Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of
soulful and scientifically sound tools tospark your joy, even when it feels dark.
When you're ready to experiment withmore joy, combine this podcast with the
full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
(00:27):
Hello, I'm Henry Emmonsand welcome to Joy Lab.
And I am Aimee Prasek.
So we are talking about resiliencethis month and getting into these
kind of specific experiences thatcan really zap our resilience tanks.
and that are sometimes related to minordepression or clinical depression.
(00:49):
And the one for today is rumination.
That's the feeling of being trappedin your own thoughts when you go over
and over the same worries, regrets, oranxieties or what you should have said
to your cousin when he called you, you,didn't say it, and you feel bad and you
go over the theater in your mind of allthe things that should have happened.
(01:13):
And then you can't sleep that nightand you have to take your daughter to
the bus and you're feeling a little,I'm describing my last night, um.
So yes, I'm sure everybody can,share their own experiences
with rumination, I ruminate.
I ruminate so much less than I used to.
(01:34):
I wanna say that.
And when I ruminate, itdoes not last as long.
So that's what we wanna tackle, Ithink, how to do it less and how to
shake it off quicker when it happens.
Yes.
Wow.
We are hitting our stride, Aimee.
We are in our wheelhouse.
Yes.
I am also an expert, ruminator.
(01:57):
Oh, pleasure to meet you.
I'm probably better than you even,'cause I've been practicing it longer.
Love a rumination contest.
Absolutely.
I'm up for it.
but as you said, we all dothis to some degree or other.
I think anyone who's lived long enoughcan relate to what you describe Aimee
about laying awake in the middleof the night replaying the same
(02:21):
thing over and over in your mind.
Yeah.
So if this is just part ofbeing human, why does it matter?
Why talk about it?
Well, it is something we're allfamiliar with, but there's rumination
and then there's rumination.
Yes.
Like everything else,it exists on a spectrum.
(02:45):
Most of the time it's pretty benignand it just goes away on its own.
If you don't fuel it, it just dissipates.
But it can also be kind of toxic.
I mean, it can be outright toxic.
Yeah.
It might start out as a symptomof something else, but if it
takes off, runaway rumination cancreate its own set of problems.
(03:09):
Like interfering with sleep or itcan worsen anxiety or even depression
and it can also lead, I think,be one of the reasons that people
turn to alcohol or drug abuse.
It's like anything to get abreak from this mind run rampant.
Absolutely.
(03:29):
I also think that rumination is animportant sign for us as to what's
going on in the brain and it cangive us a window into potential
strategies or even treatments thatcould be really, really helpful.
I think we'll get into thata little bit more as we talk.
Yeah, let's get into it.
So there are a zillionreasons why we ruminate.
(03:54):
Some of them are goodreasons, some of them
are hilariously terrible.
You know, you'll kind of wake up outof a rumination and be like, what?
Why am I ruminating on this?
So it is not helpful to sort ofpick out those irritations and
causes necessarily one by one.
(04:14):
We have to get a bigger picture ofthis, a more efficient solution if we
wanna get some freedom back in our mind.
One way to do that is to get toknow your default mode network.
I know, I bet you didn'tthink I was gonna say that.
So this is, Henry, I want youto go into all the goodies after
(04:35):
me on this, but I'll explain,
explain the DMN.
So default mode network, your DMN.
DMN is, uh, this network of many brainregions scientists kind of discovered
it, I think interestingly, when they sawthese consistent areas lighting up when
they were doing brain imaging researchand they'd have their control group and
(04:56):
they'd have their experimental group.
And so the control group, when theywere not doing anything, they weren't
doing any tasks, usually their eyeswere closed, they were at rest,
they weren't focusing on anything.
This consistent area, these consistentareas would light up in the brain,
so, hmm, kind of made them think.
(05:16):
So you can think of the DMN as really whatgets activated when you're daydreaming
or recalling memories or when you'rejust kind of people watching and making
up stories in your head or zoning outwhen someone is talking and your mind
just kind of starts wandering around.
And the DMN is not bad at all.
(05:37):
We don't understand it fully either.
The way we zone out, or have these timesof what's called resting wakefulness,
sometimes, when the DMN seems to be moreactive, it doesn't mean for a moment that
we're all thinking the same thoughts orfeeling the same emotions or experiences.
So activation of DMNdoesn't have to be bad.
(05:59):
However, what seems to be moreclear is that the DMN is more
inward focused or inwardly focused.
This network seems to activate when we arepaying attention to our own little world,
telling our own little stories, engagingin self-talk, almost like a narrator.
And that's great in the background,a little narrator to help us
(06:22):
reflect and make sense of the world.
But when it's too active, whenit's too loud, then it can become
a real problem and lock us in.
Actually, sometimes I think of theDMN as, the narrator in the Truman
Show at the, at the beginning, it'slike super helpful, and then it starts
(06:42):
to get a little too intense, right?
It wants to take the wheel andstart controlling everything.
Um, So it can keep us, if we're gettingstuck in it, if it's overactivated,
keep us spiraling and overthinking,reliving past mistakes, worrying
about things we can't change.
Constantly analyzing ourselves.
And we start to ruminate and weget sort of stuck in those thought
(07:05):
loops that don't go anywhere.
So that's why overactivation of the DMNseems to be associated with, rumination
and other mental health disorders.
Henry, do you want to say moreabout the DMN and rumination?
Sure.
I, by the way, I love the, thereference to the Truman Show narrator.
(07:25):
I had not thought of that.
I mean,
it's.
I think so.
I mean, if you get really, ifyou're really into the Truman Show,
you'd probably have some argumentsabout that, but I think it's good.
Yeah,
Well, anybody who's really intothe Truman Show, call Aimee and
I love that movie.
It does speak to the DMN for meand other psychological freedom,
(07:46):
but go on free will, you know.
So the DMN and rumination.
So to me it, it goes back towhat I was saying before about
rumination existing on a spectrum.
Okay?
So on the low end, which is what Ithink you're getting at with when
you talk about the default modenetwork and kind of daydreaming and
(08:11):
you know, sort of inward focused.
I mean that's really benign andI think there's even evidence
that it is a helpful thing to do.
It's almost as if it, it might helpkeep those different areas of the brain
networked with each other, you know,kind of keeps 'em online, so to speak.
And so all these different nodesare communicating with one another.
(08:35):
Even if it's meaningless, it'sstill kind of important to
keep that flow of energy going.
So letting your mind wander isalmost like giving your brain a
gentle little aerobic workout.
Your mind wanders and you bring it back,it wanders again, and you bring it back.
(09:01):
It's as if you're strengtheningyour mindfulness muscles in a
really gentle, organic kind of way.
Now, another way I, I thinkof this default mode network
is as sort of an energy grid.
Let's say it's an energygrid for a small city.
(09:22):
So when you're daydreaming orrecalling pleasant memories, it's
like the grid when it's off peak.
Easy peasy.
There's no strain on the system.
All of the needs are beingmet, and there's even a little
extra energy in the system.
The maintenance workers at thispoint, even have a chance to go in
(09:45):
and do some routine repair work.
But then imagine it'sthe peak of the summer.
It's an unusually hot day.
Everybody's cranking up their airconditioners full blast at the same time.
So to meet the need, then allthe backup systems are activated.
(10:05):
The energy grid is super chargedup, and there is too much energy
for the system as it's designed,and then things start to go haywire.
Maybe even to the point that you getthese rolling blackouts, you know?
So that's how I think of toxic rumination.
(10:27):
The specifics of what you'rethinking about don't even matter.
What matters is that there's simplytoo much energy in the system.
It's overactivated, as you said, Aimee.
Yeah.
I like that it because it takes thejudgment of what the thoughts are away,
and it's just like the overactivation.
(10:48):
Um, I think that's important.
There is some good research.
We, we should talk about this in alater episode on positive kind of mind
wandering like you just described as,as like training for mindfulness, but
also just, and then as you describedas a break, like a pause from just
like constant over consumption.
So I love thinking of thisrumination on a spectrum.
(11:11):
And then as like too much energy.
So let's get into, some ways we canput the brakes on the rumination.
If it's too high.
Maybe we'll do four, four ways.
You don't have to do them all.
We're gonna give you ideas.
So maybe pick one or twoat the most to start with.
(11:31):
So I'll start.
First idea, do something thatyou can't do on autopilot.
So this just requires us toactivate really what are more
task oriented areas of the brain.
And it can almost be like a switch,a light switch for rumination.
So we can turn on the morefocused attention areas.
(11:54):
Like the ventral medial prefrontal cortex.
We talked about thatin a few, episodes ago.
Did we?
We did.
I'll link to it.
It's good stuff with savoring.
Yeah, I know we talk about so much here.
But, so when those are active,those more task oriented areas, the
ruminating areas can get a break.
They can go dark for a bit.
(12:15):
And so for me actually, cookingwith a recipe is really helpful.
So cooking something newthat you have to focus on.
You could play a group game like agame that you have to be engaged in
takes a little bit of cognitive effort.
Uh, something that you like or at leastdon't hate, and that you have to focus on.
(12:36):
And then a second tip here, or ideais to shift from why me to what now?
So when we ruminate, it'susually a looping sentence, at
least in my head, that startswith, why didn't I or why did I?
And then we just keep movingit through again and again.
So try for a moment when yourealize you're looping to give
(13:00):
your narrator something else towork with, which can be what now?
So if there's something worth mullingover in your brain, then you'll
maybe get an answer to what now?
if instead the answer is that there'snothing you can do about it right
now, there truly are no, apologiesto give or lessons to learn, then
(13:21):
you can start to close that loop,to give an end to the story.
And the more you kind of shake yourselfout of those, why mes with some
what nows I I think the less oftenthey come back with that, why me?
Why me?
I wanna give a warning.
Don't let your narrator go down a newpath from why me to what should have
(13:43):
been, which is just the same ruminationroad with another question instead,
what now is very present focus, it'saction oriented, and it gives you
back some responsibility and power.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Thanks for that warning.
Those narrators are tricky.
Tricky.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Give them a new script.
(14:04):
Absolutely.
So I'm gonna focus on taking some ofthat excess energy out of the system.
To try to cool those overheated circuitsand calm that overactivated brain.
So here is the most straightforwardthing I can think of.
(14:24):
Ignore it.
Don't give it one ounce of your attention.
Now, Aimee, you, you gave us a way todo this indirectly by doing something
so absorbing that your mind simplycan't ruminate at the same time.
Yeah.
I'm suggesting that you can do it reallydirectly by refusing to engage in it.
(14:47):
Now, I'll admit this is a little tricky.
You have to know that youare not your thoughts.
Mm.
You have to be able to stand back andobserve your thoughts, which are not you.
Now, this is actually not hard todo, but you have to you have to
(15:12):
have had the experience of doing it
so you get it, you really get it, whichI think of as kind of like riding a bike.
Takes a little doing to get there, butonce you do it, it makes all the sense in
the world and it's actually kind of easy.
So this is a really good way to dealwith the 3:00 AM rumination session.
(15:36):
Which, if you're a ruminator like Iam and there's too much energy in your
default mode network at 3:00 AM if you'reawake, your brain is going to ruminate.
Absolutely.
So let it, let it do that, but don'tfeed it by believing that it's important.
(15:57):
'Cause I guarantee you that whateveryou are ruminating about at 3:00 AM is
not as important as you think it is.
So don't try to stop it.
Don't forcibly try to stop it becausethat'll just feed the fire too.
You just let it run its course and you do,
you could do something likeAimee suggested earlier, like,
(16:19):
like, you know something tactile.
Feel the bedsheets touch your skin,place your hand over your chest.
Focus your attention on that,and the rumination will just
gradually kinda wear itself out.
No effort.
You just allow it to kind of doits thing and allow the energy
to, to kind of run its course.
(16:41):
I love that.
I'm imagining, my daughter likeHalloween candy or something.
When you got a big stash of itand they keep asking you, Can
I have another piece of candy?
Can I have another piece of candy?
Can I have another piece of candy?
And it's like, I know I'm gonna say no.
And now I'm just gonna say no 'causeI don't wanna engage with this.
So "Can I have anotherpiece of--" "No, thank you.
Nope.
(17:01):
Nope." And pretty soonshe stops asking, right?
Yeah, that's a, that's a,very good, very good metaphor.
So like a child with a Snickers bar.
No, you cannot eat it.
I'm not gonna, no, I'mnot gonna give it to you.
Don't need to feed it.
Oh, well, here's the second option,
(17:22):
which is to get it out of yourmind and onto a piece of paper.
So in a way, this seems to bekind of the opposite of what I
just said, which was to ignore it.
Here you're giving it your attention,but you're doing it in with the express
purpose of getting it out of your head.
(17:43):
Even though it's not that important,your brain thinks that it is and it
will keep chewing on it as long asit thinks it's important to do so.
So if you go to your journal or just graba piece of paper and write down everything
you can think of that you need to sayabout this, then the brain's work is done.
(18:05):
It can rest
and so can you.
I love that.
I love that there's two options here.
That are
Very different.
that you just gave, which is reallyhelpful, when it feels like you just need
to get it out or you can just say no.
Right.
Which is it?
I do both, I think, and I thinkdepending on what the rumination
(18:28):
is presenting might require one orthe other for you and you'll know.
You know, I, I, I also do both.
And if it happens at like three or 4:00AM literally, I usually just let it run
its course and kind of dissipate unlessI think it actually is kind of important.
(18:48):
And then I might get, get up andwrite it down and get it outta my
head so that if it, if it somethingI buy into that, okay, I might wanna
actually remember this in the morning.
That kind of helps me to let it go.
I love that.
So you're kind of honoring this,well, this might be important.
This might be something I want to take anddo something with or learn something from.
(19:10):
You know what I, so when I do writethings down, after I fill a journal, so
I'll have one for that kind of writing.
You know what I do with that journal?
What
I burn it,
you do?
I burn it, I throw it in a fire.
Ooh,
Sometimes I'll do page by page ifI'm like, this is not important.
Immediately I know.
(19:31):
I think there's something about burningthose thoughts that helps me release them.
So,
Nice.
last thing, if you want, Just get araging bonfire going of your unimportant
ruminative thoughts that just don'tneed to go anywhere and burn 'em.
if it's burn season, myhusband is a firefighter.
(19:52):
I feel like I should give adisclaimer, but just follow
the rules, have a hose nearby.
All right.
Well, I, I hope this was helpful.
I think this is such gosh, yes, auniversal topic for us to dig into.
I hope these strategies,something has resonated with you.
Let us know how they work.
Give them a try.
(20:14):
So I think I wanna end us withsome wisdom from Pema Chödrön.
That I think we can remember perhapswhen rumination starts to rev up.
Here it is.
"You are the sky. Everythingelse, it's just the weather."
Thank you for listeningto the Joy Lab podcast.
(20:35):
If you enjoy today's show, visitJoyLab.coach to learn more
about the full Joy Lab program.
Be sure to rate and review us whereveryou listen to your favorite podcasts.
Please remember that thiscontent is for informational
and educational purposes only.
It is not intended to provide medicaladvice and is not a replacement for advice
(20:55):
and treatment from a medical professional.
Please consult your doctor orother qualified health professional
before beginning any diet change,supplement, or lifestyle program.
Please see our terms for more information.
Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast,where we help you uncover and
(00:03):
foster your most joyful self.
Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr.Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of
soulful and scientifically sound tools tospark your joy, even when it feels dark.
When you're ready to experiment withmore joy, combine this podcast with the
full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
(00:27):
Hello, I'm Henry Emmonsand welcome to Joy Lab.
And I am Aimee Prasek.
So we are talking about resiliencethis month and getting into these
kind of specific experiences thatcan really zap our resilience tanks.
and that are sometimes related to minordepression or clinical depression.
(00:49):
And the one for today is rumination.
That's the feeling of being trappedin your own thoughts when you go over
and over the same worries, regrets, oranxieties or what you should have said
to your cousin when he called you, you,didn't say it, and you feel bad and you
go over the theater in your mind of allthe things that should have happened.
(01:13):
And then you can't sleep that nightand you have to take your daughter to
the bus and you're feeling a little,I'm describing my last night, um.
So yes, I'm sure everybody can,share their own experiences
with rumination, I ruminate.
I ruminate so much less than I used to.
(01:34):
I wanna say that.
And when I ruminate, itdoes not last as long.
So that's what we wanna tackle, Ithink, how to do it less and how to
shake it off quicker when it happens.
Yes.
Wow.
We are hitting our stride, Aimee.
We are in our wheelhouse.
Yes.
I am also an expert, ruminator.
(01:57):
Oh, pleasure to meet you.
I'm probably better than you even,'cause I've been practicing it longer.
Love a rumination contest.
Absolutely.
I'm up for it.
but as you said, we all dothis to some degree or other.
I think anyone who's lived long enoughcan relate to what you describe Aimee
about laying awake in the middleof the night replaying the same
(02:21):
thing over and over in your mind.
Yeah.
So if this is just part ofbeing human, why does it matter?
Why talk about it?
Well, it is something we're allfamiliar with, but there's rumination
and then there's rumination.
Yes.
Like everything else,it exists on a spectrum.
(02:45):
Most of the time it's pretty benignand it just goes away on its own.
If you don't fuel it, it just dissipates.
But it can also be kind of toxic.
I mean, it can be outright toxic.
Yeah.
It might start out as a symptomof something else, but if it
takes off, runaway rumination cancreate its own set of problems.
(03:09):
Like interfering with sleep or itcan worsen anxiety or even depression
and it can also lead, I think,be one of the reasons that people
turn to alcohol or drug abuse.
It's like anything to get abreak from this mind run rampant.
Absolutely.
(03:29):
I also think that rumination is animportant sign for us as to what's
going on in the brain and it cangive us a window into potential
strategies or even treatments thatcould be really, really helpful.
I think we'll get into thata little bit more as we talk.
Yeah, let's get into it.
So there are a zillionreasons why we ruminate.
(03:54):
Some of them are goodreasons, some of them
are hilariously terrible.
You know, you'll kind of wake up outof a rumination and be like, what?
Why am I ruminating on this?
So it is not helpful to sort ofpick out those irritations and
causes necessarily one by one.
(04:14):
We have to get a bigger picture ofthis, a more efficient solution if we
wanna get some freedom back in our mind.
One way to do that is to get toknow your default mode network.
I know, I bet you didn'tthink I was gonna say that.
So this is, Henry, I want youto go into all the goodies after
(04:35):
me on this, but I'll explain,
explain the DMN.
So default mode network, your DMN.
DMN is, uh, this network of many brainregions scientists kind of discovered
it, I think interestingly, when they sawthese consistent areas lighting up when
they were doing brain imaging researchand they'd have their control group and
(04:56):
they'd have their experimental group.
And so the control group, when theywere not doing anything, they weren't
doing any tasks, usually their eyeswere closed, they were at rest,
they weren't focusing on anything.
This consistent area, these consistentareas would light up in the brain,
so, hmm, kind of made them think.
(05:16):
So you can think of the DMN as really whatgets activated when you're daydreaming
or recalling memories or when you'rejust kind of people watching and making
up stories in your head or zoning outwhen someone is talking and your mind
just kind of starts wandering around.
And the DMN is not bad at all.
(05:37):
We don't understand it fully either.
The way we zone out, or have these timesof what's called resting wakefulness,
sometimes, when the DMN seems to be moreactive, it doesn't mean for a moment that
we're all thinking the same thoughts orfeeling the same emotions or experiences.
So activation of DMNdoesn't have to be bad.
(05:59):
However, what seems to be moreclear is that the DMN is more
inward focused or inwardly focused.
This network seems to activate when we arepaying attention to our own little world,
telling our own little stories, engagingin self-talk, almost like a narrator.
And that's great in the background,a little narrator to help us
(06:22):
reflect and make sense of the world.
But when it's too active, whenit's too loud, then it can become
a real problem and lock us in.
Actually, sometimes I think of theDMN as, the narrator in the Truman
Show at the, at the beginning, it'slike super helpful, and then it starts
(06:42):
to get a little too intense, right?
It wants to take the wheel andstart controlling everything.
Um, So it can keep us, if we're gettingstuck in it, if it's overactivated,
keep us spiraling and overthinking,reliving past mistakes, worrying
about things we can't change.
Constantly analyzing ourselves.
And we start to ruminate and weget sort of stuck in those thought
(07:05):
loops that don't go anywhere.
So that's why overactivation of the DMNseems to be associated with, rumination
and other mental health disorders.
Henry, do you want to say moreabout the DMN and rumination?
Sure.
I, by the way, I love the, thereference to the Truman Show narrator.
(07:25):
I had not thought of that.
I mean,
it's.
I think so.
I mean, if you get really, ifyou're really into the Truman Show,
you'd probably have some argumentsabout that, but I think it's good.
Yeah,
Well, anybody who's really intothe Truman Show, call Aimee and
I love that movie.
It does speak to the DMN for meand other psychological freedom,
(07:46):
but go on free will, you know.
So the DMN and rumination.
So to me it, it goes back towhat I was saying before about
rumination existing on a spectrum.
Okay?
So on the low end, which is what Ithink you're getting at with when
you talk about the default modenetwork and kind of daydreaming and
(08:11):
you know, sort of inward focused.
I mean that's really benign andI think there's even evidence
that it is a helpful thing to do.
It's almost as if it, it might helpkeep those different areas of the brain
networked with each other, you know,kind of keeps 'em online, so to speak.
And so all these different nodesare communicating with one another.
(08:35):
Even if it's meaningless, it'sstill kind of important to
keep that flow of energy going.
So letting your mind wander isalmost like giving your brain a
gentle little aerobic workout.
Your mind wanders and you bring it back,it wanders again, and you bring it back.
(09:01):
It's as if you're strengtheningyour mindfulness muscles in a
really gentle, organic kind of way.
Now, another way I, I thinkof this default mode network
is as sort of an energy grid.
Let's say it's an energygrid for a small city.
(09:22):
So when you're daydreaming orrecalling pleasant memories, it's
like the grid when it's off peak.
Easy peasy.
There's no strain on the system.
All of the needs are beingmet, and there's even a little
extra energy in the system.
The maintenance workers at thispoint, even have a chance to go in
(09:45):
and do some routine repair work.
But then imagine it'sthe peak of the summer.
It's an unusually hot day.
Everybody's cranking up their airconditioners full blast at the same time.
So to meet the need, then allthe backup systems are activated.
(10:05):
The energy grid is super chargedup, and there is too much energy
for the system as it's designed,and then things start to go haywire.
Maybe even to the point that you getthese rolling blackouts, you know?
So that's how I think of toxic rumination.
(10:27):
The specifics of what you'rethinking about don't even matter.
What matters is that there's simplytoo much energy in the system.
It's overactivated, as you said, Aimee.
Yeah.
I like that it because it takes thejudgment of what the thoughts are away,
and it's just like the overactivation.
(10:48):
Um, I think that's important.
There is some good research.
We, we should talk about this in alater episode on positive kind of mind
wandering like you just described as,as like training for mindfulness, but
also just, and then as you describedas a break, like a pause from just
like constant over consumption.
So I love thinking of thisrumination on a spectrum.
(11:11):
And then as like too much energy.
So let's get into, some ways we canput the brakes on the rumination.
If it's too high.
Maybe we'll do four, four ways.
You don't have to do them all.
We're gonna give you ideas.
So maybe pick one or twoat the most to start with.
(11:31):
So I'll start.
First idea, do something thatyou can't do on autopilot.
So this just requires us toactivate really what are more
task oriented areas of the brain.
And it can almost be like a switch,a light switch for rumination.
So we can turn on the morefocused attention areas.
(11:54):
Like the ventral medial prefrontal cortex.
We talked about thatin a few, episodes ago.
Did we?
We did.
I'll link to it.
It's good stuff with savoring.
Yeah, I know we talk about so much here.
But, so when those are active,those more task oriented areas, the
ruminating areas can get a break.
They can go dark for a bit.
(12:15):
And so for me actually, cookingwith a recipe is really helpful.
So cooking something newthat you have to focus on.
You could play a group game like agame that you have to be engaged in
takes a little bit of cognitive effort.
Uh, something that you like or at leastdon't hate, and that you have to focus on.
(12:36):
And then a second tip here, or ideais to shift from why me to what now?
So when we ruminate, it'susually a looping sentence, at
least in my head, that startswith, why didn't I or why did I?
And then we just keep movingit through again and again.
So try for a moment when yourealize you're looping to give
(13:00):
your narrator something else towork with, which can be what now?
So if there's something worth mullingover in your brain, then you'll
maybe get an answer to what now?
if instead the answer is that there'snothing you can do about it right
now, there truly are no, apologiesto give or lessons to learn, then
(13:21):
you can start to close that loop,to give an end to the story.
And the more you kind of shake yourselfout of those, why mes with some
what nows I I think the less oftenthey come back with that, why me?
Why me?
I wanna give a warning.
Don't let your narrator go down a newpath from why me to what should have
(13:43):
been, which is just the same ruminationroad with another question instead,
what now is very present focus, it'saction oriented, and it gives you
back some responsibility and power.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Thanks for that warning.
Those narrators are tricky.
Tricky.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Give them a new script.
(14:04):
Absolutely.
So I'm gonna focus on taking some ofthat excess energy out of the system.
To try to cool those overheated circuitsand calm that overactivated brain.
So here is the most straightforwardthing I can think of.
(14:24):
Ignore it.
Don't give it one ounce of your attention.
Now, Aimee, you, you gave us a way todo this indirectly by doing something
so absorbing that your mind simplycan't ruminate at the same time.
Yeah.
I'm suggesting that you can do it reallydirectly by refusing to engage in it.
(14:47):
Now, I'll admit this is a little tricky.
You have to know that youare not your thoughts.
Mm.
You have to be able to stand back andobserve your thoughts, which are not you.
Now, this is actually not hard todo, but you have to you have to
(15:12):
have had the experience of doing it
so you get it, you really get it, whichI think of as kind of like riding a bike.
Takes a little doing to get there, butonce you do it, it makes all the sense in
the world and it's actually kind of easy.
So this is a really good way to dealwith the 3:00 AM rumination session.
(15:36):
Which, if you're a ruminator like Iam and there's too much energy in your
default mode network at 3:00 AM if you'reawake, your brain is going to ruminate.
Absolutely.
So let it, let it do that, but don'tfeed it by believing that it's important.
(15:57):
'Cause I guarantee you that whateveryou are ruminating about at 3:00 AM is
not as important as you think it is.
So don't try to stop it.
Don't forcibly try to stop it becausethat'll just feed the fire too.
You just let it run its course and you do,
you could do something likeAimee suggested earlier, like,
(16:19):
like, you know something tactile.
Feel the bedsheets touch your skin,place your hand over your chest.
Focus your attention on that,and the rumination will just
gradually kinda wear itself out.
No effort.
You just allow it to kind of doits thing and allow the energy
to, to kind of run its course.
(16:41):
I love that.
I'm imagining, my daughter likeHalloween candy or something.
When you got a big stash of itand they keep asking you, Can
I have another piece of candy?
Can I have another piece of candy?
Can I have another piece of candy?
And it's like, I know I'm gonna say no.
And now I'm just gonna say no 'causeI don't wanna engage with this.
So "Can I have anotherpiece of--" "No, thank you.
Nope.
(17:01):
Nope." And pretty soonshe stops asking, right?
Yeah, that's a, that's a,very good, very good metaphor.
So like a child with a Snickers bar.
No, you cannot eat it.
I'm not gonna, no, I'mnot gonna give it to you.
Don't need to feed it.
Oh, well, here's the second option,
(17:22):
which is to get it out of yourmind and onto a piece of paper.
So in a way, this seems to bekind of the opposite of what I
just said, which was to ignore it.
Here you're giving it your attention,but you're doing it in with the express
purpose of getting it out of your head.
(17:43):
Even though it's not that important,your brain thinks that it is and it
will keep chewing on it as long asit thinks it's important to do so.
So if you go to your journal or just graba piece of paper and write down everything
you can think of that you need to sayabout this, then the brain's work is done.
(18:05):
It can rest
and so can you.
I love that.
I love that there's two options here.
That are
Very different.
that you just gave, which is reallyhelpful, when it feels like you just need
to get it out or you can just say no.
Right.
Which is it?
I do both, I think, and I thinkdepending on what the rumination
(18:28):
is presenting might require one orthe other for you and you'll know.
You know, I, I, I also do both.
And if it happens at like three or 4:00AM literally, I usually just let it run
its course and kind of dissipate unlessI think it actually is kind of important.
(18:48):
And then I might get, get up andwrite it down and get it outta my
head so that if it, if it somethingI buy into that, okay, I might wanna
actually remember this in the morning.
That kind of helps me to let it go.
I love that.
So you're kind of honoring this,well, this might be important.
This might be something I want to take anddo something with or learn something from.
(19:10):
You know what I, so when I do writethings down, after I fill a journal, so
I'll have one for that kind of writing.
You know what I do with that journal?
What
I burn it,
you do?
I burn it, I throw it in a fire.
Ooh,
Sometimes I'll do page by page ifI'm like, this is not important.
Immediately I know.
(19:31):
I think there's something about burningthose thoughts that helps me release them.
So,
Nice.
last thing, if you want, Just get araging bonfire going of your unimportant
ruminative thoughts that just don'tneed to go anywhere and burn 'em.
if it's burn season, myhusband is a firefighter.
(19:52):
I feel like I should give adisclaimer, but just follow
the rules, have a hose nearby.
All right.
Well, I, I hope this was helpful.
I think this is such gosh, yes, auniversal topic for us to dig into.
I hope these strategies,something has resonated with you.
Let us know how they work.
Give them a try.
(20:14):
So I think I wanna end us withsome wisdom from Pema Chödrön.
That I think we can remember perhapswhen rumination starts to rev up.
Here it is.
"You are the sky. Everythingelse, it's just the weather."
Thank you for listeningto the Joy Lab podcast.
(20:35):
If you enjoy today's show, visitJoyLab.coach to learn more
about the full Joy Lab program.
Be sure to rate and review us whereveryou listen to your favorite podcasts.
Please remember that thiscontent is for informational
and educational purposes only.
It is not intended to provide medicaladvice and is not a replacement for advice
(20:55):
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