February 26, 2025 • 22 mins
Do you feel like your attention is fractured? Maybe you move through the day scattered, only to realize that you missed some good stuff along the way. In this episode, we'll talk about the practice of savoring, a simple skill that can help us regain control of our attention amidst the constant distractions of modern life.
If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts!
Sources and Notes:
- Joy Lab Program: Take the next leap in your wellbeing journey with step-by-step practices to help you build and maintain the elements of joy in your life.
- Intentional Systemic Mindfulness
- Finan, P. H., et al. (2023). Effects of Savoring Meditation on Positive Emotions and Pain-Related Brain Function: A Mechanistic Randomized Controlled Trial in People With Rheumatoid Arthritis. medRxiv. Access here.
Full transcript available here.
Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program.
Please see our terms for more information.
If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call the NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-6264 available Monday through Friday, 10 a.m. – 10 p.m., ET. OR text "HelpLine" to 62640 or email NAMI at helpline@nami.org. Visit NAMI for more. You can also call or text SAMHSA at 988 or chat 988lifeline.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast,where we help you uncover and
(00:03):
foster your most joyful self.
Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr.Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of
soulful and scientifically sound tools tospark your joy, even when it feels dark.
When you're ready to experiment withmore joy, combine this podcast with the
full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
(00:26):
Hello, I'm Henry Emmons,and welcome back to Joy Lab.
And I'm Aimee Prasek.
So today we are talking aboutour February element of savoring
and attention or inattention.
So I want to start off witha definition from savoring
researchers, Bryant and Veroff.
(00:46):
So if you listened last episode, youmight know this definition, so you
can say it along with me at home.
Here
it is.
Savoring is the capacity to attend to.
appreciate and enhance thepositive experiences in one's
life, which sounds great.
And I think this element, however, itgoes even beyond that to, also support
(01:12):
us in really gaining back control ofour attention, and that's kind of what
we're going to dig into more of today.
So savoring requires us tochoose something we want
to pay attention to, right?
To give it our attention becausewe think it'll give us some
nourishment, that it'll support us.
And that is really, reallyimportant because our attention
(01:35):
is more than ever a commodity.
Really, it's a scarce resource thatis constantly being pulled from us.
So it's probably no news to anybody here,
social media companies want our attentionbecause it brings ad dollars, online
gaming, streaming platforms, shoppingsites, 24/7 news channels, etc. These
(01:59):
aren't all bad, certainly, but they arebuilt to grab and hold our attention
in such a way that it doesn't let up.
And with our phones in our pocketsand devices everywhere, this
is a really big deal, right?
Every day we are pulled andpinged and coerced and shamed
and scared into giving over ourattention without even knowing it.
(02:22):
And if we don't build up the skillsof placing our attention where we
want it, then we will get pulledinto these places where we just give
too much attention, too much of ourtime, too much of our resources.
And then after that, at best, we areoften left depleted and exhausted.
(02:45):
So that is my ominous beginningto the element of savoring,
Ha ha ha ha ha ha
which I realize is, it's good.
There's, there is a, there is a happy,sort of ending to this story and I'm not
trying to fear monger, uh, the point, butI just think this is really essential in
(03:06):
our 24/7 media and consumer environment.
We have to be able to know who or whatwe're giving our attention to and how it
impacts our wellbeing and then to makea choice and take action to gain control
back if we're putting our attention ina place that's exhausting or harming us.
So I want to quote good old philosopherEpictetus to drive at this point.
(03:31):
He said, this is prior to socialmedia and all of the craziness,
nothing has changed in thousands of
ha ha.
but here's what, what he said, "Yourlife is too short and you have important
things to do. Be discriminating aboutwhat images and ideas you permit into
(03:51):
your mind. If you yourself don't choosewhat thoughts and images you expose
yourself to, someone else will, andtheir motives may not be the highest."
Wow.
Yeah.
So Henry, do you want to add somethinghere or disagree with Epictetus?
I'm not going to disagree withEpictetus, that's for sure.
(04:13):
I, uh, that's a really strikingquotation and, and I love it.
And I just couldn't agree more with youabout this issue, Aimee, about attention.
And I'm glad we're reallytying that to savoring.
I think attention might bethe most precious resource
(04:35):
we have, personal resource, at least inthis digital era, and I don't think we
realize just how much of it we've lost.
I mean, Epictetus was telling people 2,000 years ago that you better choose what
you put into your mind intentionally,or someone else might do it who has less
(05:00):
positive wishes for you or whatever.
But, you know, I don't think whatyou described earlier is nefarious.
It's just, it's just destroyingour ability to stay attentive.
And we are allowing that to happen.
Yeah.
I, I, it's just reminded me of amovie review that I read recently,
(05:24):
this is, this is new for me tobring up a movie on the podcast.
my area.
Go on though.
I'm curious.
It really, it really struck me, because Ithink this is what, exactly what it was.
So, there's a movie called Perfect Days.
I haven't seen it, so I'mjust going by the review.
(05:47):
The review is in the Atlantic, I think,but, um, it's by a filmmaker I've heard
of, Wim Wenders, who's a German filmmaker.
And the description of it actuallysounds a little boring, if I'm honest
but also very intriguing.
(06:08):
So the story is about a custodian,a janitor in Tokyo, whose life
sounds incredibly spare, youknow, like he has no Cell phone.
He's not on social media.
He lives alone.
He barely interacts with anybody inthe course of his days, so you can
(06:30):
kind of see where this this is going.
But what the reviewer said is thatthis movie is enthralling because
it's just so striking to see someonegoing through his days with what the
reviewer calls unfractured attention.
(06:51):
And that phrase justreally jumped out at me.
I love it; unfractured attention.
'Cause that's a perfect description.
I think so most of us, myselfincluded, our attention is so
fractured that it's hard to sustainit, you know, for any length of time.
So the, the movie apparently over time,it, it reveals what looks like a pretty
(07:15):
dull and and spare existence that this
man has a really rich life thatcomes largely out of his being able
to be fully present to the rhythmof his days, the simple rhythm.
And it's, it's these simple things thathe really takes pleasure in, something
(07:36):
I just find so appealing right now.
So his natural ability to savorhis life happens in large part
because his mind is so uncluttered.
At least that's, that'show I'm imagining it.
So I think it's charming, a charming ideato lift up a, a simple character like
(07:58):
that and, presented as a, as a differentoption for how to live a life these days.
And, and also maybe as an antidote toour own chaotic and very fractured lives.
Sometimes I feel like my brainand our collective brains
have been, have been hacked.
(08:19):
You know, it's like,like we let someone in.
You know, like these, these email scams,you click on it, you let somebody in, and
they gain control of our operating system.
So I think this comes at a hugecost, and I'm not so sure, frankly,
how easy it is to get it back.
So let's move into this idea of savoring.
(08:43):
To give us a foothold, how do wereclaim our own more perfect days?
Yeah.
I'm thinking to fractured attention asyou're talking about unfractured attention
and fractured attention and like howthat feels in my body and mind that just
that word fracture and I'm sure folkscan relate, like, that feeling of trying
(09:06):
to focus, but then breaking attention.
Again, I get that abrupt sort of jarringexperience constantly throughout the day.
And then I'm picturing a cast, like atool to hold the break still, to help hold
our attention where it'll serve us best.
So, like, we're, we'retrying to craft a cast here.
(09:27):
Let's, let's support our attentionbecause we can get it back.
I think it's hard, like you said,but we can, we can get it back.
I actually saw a bumper stickerthe other day that cracked me up.
It said, I'd rather be here now.
I love that.
Instead of wanting to be anywherebut here, how can we rather be here
(09:48):
mm.
How can we give attention towhat is good around us right now?
So I think as we're gettinginto this, it can be helpful
to highlight the differencesbetween mindfulness and savoring.
So, a more typical mindfulness practiceis usually where you try to quiet
the mind and just observe, maybenoticing the breath or a sensation
(10:13):
or something you're looking at.
Just observing, which is wonderful.
But with savoring, there is an intention.
So you're practicing mindfulness withthe intention of savoring, of getting
the most out of the experience.
Yeah, you have a kind of apurpose, a goal in doing it.
Yes, which I think can be reallyhelpful at times, for everyone or
(10:38):
for certain folks who maybe findthemselves distracted in other
mindfulness or meditation practices.
Like you said, it's a goal.
So it sort of gives something specific forthe brain to do and accomplish, not just,
not just observe, but also findthe good stuff, like on a little
scavenger hunt, and then keepexploring it and amplifying it.
(11:02):
And so we leverage this with all ofour elements actually at Joy Lab.
Uh, these elements, I think of themin a lot of ways as intentions.
They're the things that we put ourfocus on in a variety of mindful ways.
So that they show up more.
And so that focus also just reallyhelps us in so many other capacities
(11:27):
that improve, our wellbeing generally.
So if folks want more of thescience of this, there is some
great work with something calledintentional systemic mindfulness.
So if you want to geek out onthat, this is from researchers, Dr.
Shana Shapiro and Gary Schwartz.
I will put one of their mainpapers in the show notes.
Fascinating
stuff.
(11:48):
Well, I'm glad you made that distinctionbetween savoring and mindfulness practice.
I think, you know, ultimately thegoal is probably similar, but they
aren't exactly the same, are they?
And I think so many people who wanta more mindful life frankly, find it
(12:08):
hard to find the time or the disciplineto practice and you know, in the more
traditional way that we think of it.
Or or I know a lot of people too whoreally try but it just doesn't seem to
come naturally to them to sustain theirfocus or to let their mind calm down I
(12:30):
kind of put myself in this camp, it'sjust I think it's really useful to kind
of work through that, but a lot of peoplegive up, I think, before they go very far.
So I get that, you know.
So I want to just kind of share a recentexample that may not exactly fall in
(12:52):
line with what you're describing, but Idon't know, to me, it's a good example.
Feels like it does.
So I wish I could remember whereI saw this or who the person was,
but I, it's just not coming to me.
I think I, I read it probably inone of the online news feeds, but
(13:14):
but it was, uh, it was aboutsomebody who had recently died.
And the other person had a littlestory in remembrance of them.
You know, maybe it was that, that thingon NPR where they, they talk about,
they have these little vignettes wheresomeone is remembering another person.
It's really sweet.
(13:34):
It's a really, really nice little feature.
So anyway, they were, they weretalking about this person and it
had to do with the person who wasspeaking that they feared that
they weren't being a good enoughparent to their very young children.
And then this older person that theywere remembering said, just get down
(13:56):
on the floor and play with them.
They'll always remember that.
So, I thought that was a really cool idea.
So, when I was with my owngrandchildren recently, who were
really young, um, mostly on the floor,I decided I was going to try it out.
I don't usually do this becauseafter a little while, either one
(14:19):
of my knees or hips or something isgoing to complain, and getting down
is easy, sometimes getting up again,
Right.
you know, not as much.
But I went for it, and I'll tell you,I could not have enjoyed it more.
And it felt like a decidedlydifferent experience than usual.
(14:40):
I always enjoy, you know, like beingwith them and playing with them,
but this just was better by far.
So much so that I didn't evencare about my knees or hips.
And that good feeling that came fromsavoring this time with them, by really
being in it, I guess, more fully, itjust stayed with me for a long time.
(15:03):
It was totally worth it.
So, I think one of the beauties ofsavoring is that it gives us a way to
reclaim some bit of our attention withoutactually taking any extra time or effort.
I mean, really, it's just, you know,it's doing whatever you're doing.
(15:24):
Hope, I mean, in this case, somethingthat you expect to be enjoyable, but just,
doing it fully, like your bumper sticker,you just want to be here right now.
It's so simple.
It just requires us to payattention to something we enjoy.
And we'd want to do that anyway, right?
(15:44):
It's something we're drawn to.
So, as I'm thinking about this,that kind of is the definition of
mindfulness that I learned 30 plusyears ago from Jon Kabat Zinn.
Mindfulness, he just, hedescribed it as paying attention.
on purpose, without judgment.
(16:07):
So if you're savoring something, theonly judgment you're making is positive,
like, hey, this is really great.
I am really enjoying this.
Why wouldn't we want to do more of that?
Yeah, I think you're
like bringing it down to the essence,which is this is so practical, pragmatic.
(16:28):
This is just somethingwe can do all the time.
I think oftentimes I get caught in thistoo, is this idea that my mindfulness
or meditation practice needs to beformal and like, with candles or dim
lighting and no distractions, but thisis like in the field every opportunity.
There's so many moments thatyou can savor through the day.
(16:50):
And I've just, I'm actually recalling nowfrom your story, Henry, makes me think
of the probably the most poignant memoryI have of my grandparents is when we
would go to bed and my sister or myselfwould be in the bedroom with our grandma
and then whoever was sleeping in theliving room with our grandpa would then
start the evening after it was bedtime,
(17:14):
by crawling around the houselike wolves in the dark.
I mean, this is, I'm sure myparents were just loving it when
we came home after late nights.
But so, and my grandpawould be doing this, right?
So we'd be right, he'd be right alongsideus on the floor in the dark, howling
in the house for what seemed like hoursand then usually the bedroom group would
(17:39):
get out of their bed and do the same.
So it'd just be... I don't, Idon't, there was no purpose.
There was no point to any of this.
It was fantastic, weird,and totally wonderful.
And it is, again, one of the mostpoignant, wonderful memories I have
of my grandparents, that simple.
I can see why you remember that.
And all we did was we, you know,we were savoring too, together.
(18:02):
I think there's an aspect ofthat as well that you shared too.
This, this aspect of savoringwith others and how rich that
is as well as a shared practice.
And I think I want to say onemore thing about knees and hips,
since you brought it up, Henry.
So there is actually good evidence thatpracticing savoring decreases our pain,
(18:27):
our perception of pain in the body,and that's really important, right?
When you're dealing with chronic pain orjust some older, wiser body parts, and so
recent, a recent study I want to share,real quick here, they had folks train four
times with either a 20 minute savoringpractice or a slow breathing practice.
(18:52):
So just four sessions training througheither slow breathing or savoring.
And these were individuals, theparticipants were individuals
who had diagnosed rheumatoidarthritis, so they know pain.
And after those just fourtrainings, they came in for a
final practice in an fMRI machine.
So, the researchers were looking atwhat's happening in their brains during
(19:12):
the practice, what areas are lightingup, and they found that folks in
the savoring group had significantlyincreased blood flow in the ventromedial
prefrontal cortex, which is important.
So the VMPFC, as it's sometimescalled, is associated with things like
(19:33):
decision making, social cognition,kind of like how we relate and
interact with others in the world,also regulation of negative emotions.
So when we're activating this area,when it's working, when it's getting
exercise, that is a good thing.
And savoring does that.
Howling in the dark, in your houseactivates your ventromedial prefrontal
(19:54):
cortex in ways that support your kneesand back when you need to stand up
again and actually to that note ofpain, they also gave participants a
thermal stimulus during this practice,which is their research term for
like a hot prod, like a hot poke.
A hot stick
(20:15):
But interestingly when they gavehim that little hot poke, the
savoring group reported less painthan the slow breathing group, which
I was actually surprised about.
I think that's super interesting.
Savoring was more powerful toreduce pain than slow breathing.
So get on the ground, play with thosekids the best you can, it can really
(20:38):
actually help reduce pain, improveyour mood, activate your VMPFC.
This is super helpful.
So I hope you're feeling like savoringis worth your time, everybody, Because
it actually kind of takes no time.
We're already there.
We can find something to savor.
It is like self care plus so much more.
(20:59):
And as we close here, I'm going to, I wantto, I want to savor one of my favorite
quotes that I think emphasizes this.
I know I've read this quote before andI will keep reading it again and again
as we savor more as a global community.
I think it is spot on.
This is from author E. B. White.
Here's what he wrote.
(21:20):
"Every morning I awake tornbetween a desire to save the world
and an inclination to savor it.
This makes it hard to plan the day.
But if we forget to savor the world, whatpossible reason do we have for saving it?
In a way, the savoring must come first."
(21:42):
Thank you for listeningto the Joy Lab podcast.
If you enjoy today's show, visitJoyLab.coach to learn more
about the full Joy Lab program.
Be sure to rate and review us whereveryou listen to your favorite podcasts.
Please remember that thiscontent is for informational
and educational purposes only.
It is not intended to provide medicaladvice and is not a replacement for advice
(22:05):
and treatment from a medical professional.
Please consult your doctor orother qualified health professional
before beginning any diet change,supplement, or lifestyle program.
Please see our terms for more information.
Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast,where we help you uncover and
(00:03):
foster your most joyful self.
Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr.Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of
soulful and scientifically sound tools tospark your joy, even when it feels dark.
When you're ready to experiment withmore joy, combine this podcast with the
full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
(00:26):
Hello, I'm Henry Emmons,and welcome back to Joy Lab.
And I'm Aimee Prasek.
So today we are talking aboutour February element of savoring
and attention or inattention.
So I want to start off witha definition from savoring
researchers, Bryant and Veroff.
(00:46):
So if you listened last episode, youmight know this definition, so you
can say it along with me at home.
Here
it is.
Savoring is the capacity to attend to.
appreciate and enhance thepositive experiences in one's
life, which sounds great.
And I think this element, however, itgoes even beyond that to, also support
(01:12):
us in really gaining back control ofour attention, and that's kind of what
we're going to dig into more of today.
So savoring requires us tochoose something we want
to pay attention to, right?
To give it our attention becausewe think it'll give us some
nourishment, that it'll support us.
And that is really, reallyimportant because our attention
(01:35):
is more than ever a commodity.
Really, it's a scarce resource thatis constantly being pulled from us.
So it's probably no news to anybody here,
social media companies want our attentionbecause it brings ad dollars, online
gaming, streaming platforms, shoppingsites, 24/7 news channels, etc. These
(01:59):
aren't all bad, certainly, but they arebuilt to grab and hold our attention
in such a way that it doesn't let up.
And with our phones in our pocketsand devices everywhere, this
is a really big deal, right?
Every day we are pulled andpinged and coerced and shamed
and scared into giving over ourattention without even knowing it.
(02:22):
And if we don't build up the skillsof placing our attention where we
want it, then we will get pulledinto these places where we just give
too much attention, too much of ourtime, too much of our resources.
And then after that, at best, we areoften left depleted and exhausted.
(02:45):
So that is my ominous beginningto the element of savoring,
Ha ha ha ha ha ha
which I realize is, it's good.
There's, there is a, there is a happy,sort of ending to this story and I'm not
trying to fear monger, uh, the point, butI just think this is really essential in
(03:06):
our 24/7 media and consumer environment.
We have to be able to know who or whatwe're giving our attention to and how it
impacts our wellbeing and then to makea choice and take action to gain control
back if we're putting our attention ina place that's exhausting or harming us.
So I want to quote good old philosopherEpictetus to drive at this point.
(03:31):
He said, this is prior to socialmedia and all of the craziness,
nothing has changed in thousands of
ha ha.
but here's what, what he said, "Yourlife is too short and you have important
things to do. Be discriminating aboutwhat images and ideas you permit into
(03:51):
your mind. If you yourself don't choosewhat thoughts and images you expose
yourself to, someone else will, andtheir motives may not be the highest."
Wow.
Yeah.
So Henry, do you want to add somethinghere or disagree with Epictetus?
I'm not going to disagree withEpictetus, that's for sure.
(04:13):
I, uh, that's a really strikingquotation and, and I love it.
And I just couldn't agree more with youabout this issue, Aimee, about attention.
And I'm glad we're reallytying that to savoring.
I think attention might bethe most precious resource
(04:35):
we have, personal resource, at least inthis digital era, and I don't think we
realize just how much of it we've lost.
I mean, Epictetus was telling people 2,000 years ago that you better choose what
you put into your mind intentionally,or someone else might do it who has less
(05:00):
positive wishes for you or whatever.
But, you know, I don't think whatyou described earlier is nefarious.
It's just, it's just destroyingour ability to stay attentive.
And we are allowing that to happen.
Yeah.
I, I, it's just reminded me of amovie review that I read recently,
(05:24):
this is, this is new for me tobring up a movie on the podcast.
my area.
Go on though.
I'm curious.
It really, it really struck me, because Ithink this is what, exactly what it was.
So, there's a movie called Perfect Days.
I haven't seen it, so I'mjust going by the review.
(05:47):
The review is in the Atlantic, I think,but, um, it's by a filmmaker I've heard
of, Wim Wenders, who's a German filmmaker.
And the description of it actuallysounds a little boring, if I'm honest
but also very intriguing.
(06:08):
So the story is about a custodian,a janitor in Tokyo, whose life
sounds incredibly spare, youknow, like he has no Cell phone.
He's not on social media.
He lives alone.
He barely interacts with anybody inthe course of his days, so you can
(06:30):
kind of see where this this is going.
But what the reviewer said is thatthis movie is enthralling because
it's just so striking to see someonegoing through his days with what the
reviewer calls unfractured attention.
(06:51):
And that phrase justreally jumped out at me.
I love it; unfractured attention.
'Cause that's a perfect description.
I think so most of us, myselfincluded, our attention is so
fractured that it's hard to sustainit, you know, for any length of time.
So the, the movie apparently over time,it, it reveals what looks like a pretty
(07:15):
dull and and spare existence that this
man has a really rich life thatcomes largely out of his being able
to be fully present to the rhythmof his days, the simple rhythm.
And it's, it's these simple things thathe really takes pleasure in, something
(07:36):
I just find so appealing right now.
So his natural ability to savorhis life happens in large part
because his mind is so uncluttered.
At least that's, that'show I'm imagining it.
So I think it's charming, a charming ideato lift up a, a simple character like
(07:58):
that and, presented as a, as a differentoption for how to live a life these days.
And, and also maybe as an antidote toour own chaotic and very fractured lives.
Sometimes I feel like my brainand our collective brains
have been, have been hacked.
(08:19):
You know, it's like,like we let someone in.
You know, like these, these email scams,you click on it, you let somebody in, and
they gain control of our operating system.
So I think this comes at a hugecost, and I'm not so sure, frankly,
how easy it is to get it back.
So let's move into this idea of savoring.
(08:43):
To give us a foothold, how do wereclaim our own more perfect days?
Yeah.
I'm thinking to fractured attention asyou're talking about unfractured attention
and fractured attention and like howthat feels in my body and mind that just
that word fracture and I'm sure folkscan relate, like, that feeling of trying
(09:06):
to focus, but then breaking attention.
Again, I get that abrupt sort of jarringexperience constantly throughout the day.
And then I'm picturing a cast, like atool to hold the break still, to help hold
our attention where it'll serve us best.
So, like, we're, we'retrying to craft a cast here.
(09:27):
Let's, let's support our attentionbecause we can get it back.
I think it's hard, like you said,but we can, we can get it back.
I actually saw a bumper stickerthe other day that cracked me up.
It said, I'd rather be here now.
I love that.
Instead of wanting to be anywherebut here, how can we rather be here
(09:48):
mm.
How can we give attention towhat is good around us right now?
So I think as we're gettinginto this, it can be helpful
to highlight the differencesbetween mindfulness and savoring.
So, a more typical mindfulness practiceis usually where you try to quiet
the mind and just observe, maybenoticing the breath or a sensation
(10:13):
or something you're looking at.
Just observing, which is wonderful.
But with savoring, there is an intention.
So you're practicing mindfulness withthe intention of savoring, of getting
the most out of the experience.
Yeah, you have a kind of apurpose, a goal in doing it.
Yes, which I think can be reallyhelpful at times, for everyone or
(10:38):
for certain folks who maybe findthemselves distracted in other
mindfulness or meditation practices.
Like you said, it's a goal.
So it sort of gives something specific forthe brain to do and accomplish, not just,
not just observe, but also findthe good stuff, like on a little
scavenger hunt, and then keepexploring it and amplifying it.
(11:02):
And so we leverage this with all ofour elements actually at Joy Lab.
Uh, these elements, I think of themin a lot of ways as intentions.
They're the things that we put ourfocus on in a variety of mindful ways.
So that they show up more.
And so that focus also just reallyhelps us in so many other capacities
(11:27):
that improve, our wellbeing generally.
So if folks want more of thescience of this, there is some
great work with something calledintentional systemic mindfulness.
So if you want to geek out onthat, this is from researchers, Dr.
Shana Shapiro and Gary Schwartz.
I will put one of their mainpapers in the show notes.
Fascinating
stuff.
(11:48):
Well, I'm glad you made that distinctionbetween savoring and mindfulness practice.
I think, you know, ultimately thegoal is probably similar, but they
aren't exactly the same, are they?
And I think so many people who wanta more mindful life frankly, find it
(12:08):
hard to find the time or the disciplineto practice and you know, in the more
traditional way that we think of it.
Or or I know a lot of people too whoreally try but it just doesn't seem to
come naturally to them to sustain theirfocus or to let their mind calm down I
(12:30):
kind of put myself in this camp, it'sjust I think it's really useful to kind
of work through that, but a lot of peoplegive up, I think, before they go very far.
So I get that, you know.
So I want to just kind of share a recentexample that may not exactly fall in
(12:52):
line with what you're describing, but Idon't know, to me, it's a good example.
Feels like it does.
So I wish I could remember whereI saw this or who the person was,
but I, it's just not coming to me.
I think I, I read it probably inone of the online news feeds, but
(13:14):
but it was, uh, it was aboutsomebody who had recently died.
And the other person had a littlestory in remembrance of them.
You know, maybe it was that, that thingon NPR where they, they talk about,
they have these little vignettes wheresomeone is remembering another person.
It's really sweet.
(13:34):
It's a really, really nice little feature.
So anyway, they were, they weretalking about this person and it
had to do with the person who wasspeaking that they feared that
they weren't being a good enoughparent to their very young children.
And then this older person that theywere remembering said, just get down
(13:56):
on the floor and play with them.
They'll always remember that.
So, I thought that was a really cool idea.
So, when I was with my owngrandchildren recently, who were
really young, um, mostly on the floor,I decided I was going to try it out.
I don't usually do this becauseafter a little while, either one
(14:19):
of my knees or hips or something isgoing to complain, and getting down
is easy, sometimes getting up again,
Right.
you know, not as much.
But I went for it, and I'll tell you,I could not have enjoyed it more.
And it felt like a decidedlydifferent experience than usual.
(14:40):
I always enjoy, you know, like beingwith them and playing with them,
but this just was better by far.
So much so that I didn't evencare about my knees or hips.
And that good feeling that came fromsavoring this time with them, by really
being in it, I guess, more fully, itjust stayed with me for a long time.
(15:03):
It was totally worth it.
So, I think one of the beauties ofsavoring is that it gives us a way to
reclaim some bit of our attention withoutactually taking any extra time or effort.
I mean, really, it's just, you know,it's doing whatever you're doing.
(15:24):
Hope, I mean, in this case, somethingthat you expect to be enjoyable, but just,
doing it fully, like your bumper sticker,you just want to be here right now.
It's so simple.
It just requires us to payattention to something we enjoy.
And we'd want to do that anyway, right?
(15:44):
It's something we're drawn to.
So, as I'm thinking about this,that kind of is the definition of
mindfulness that I learned 30 plusyears ago from Jon Kabat Zinn.
Mindfulness, he just, hedescribed it as paying attention.
on purpose, without judgment.
(16:07):
So if you're savoring something, theonly judgment you're making is positive,
like, hey, this is really great.
I am really enjoying this.
Why wouldn't we want to do more of that?
Yeah, I think you're
like bringing it down to the essence,which is this is so practical, pragmatic.
(16:28):
This is just somethingwe can do all the time.
I think oftentimes I get caught in thistoo, is this idea that my mindfulness
or meditation practice needs to beformal and like, with candles or dim
lighting and no distractions, but thisis like in the field every opportunity.
There's so many moments thatyou can savor through the day.
(16:50):
And I've just, I'm actually recalling nowfrom your story, Henry, makes me think
of the probably the most poignant memoryI have of my grandparents is when we
would go to bed and my sister or myselfwould be in the bedroom with our grandma
and then whoever was sleeping in theliving room with our grandpa would then
start the evening after it was bedtime,
(17:14):
by crawling around the houselike wolves in the dark.
I mean, this is, I'm sure myparents were just loving it when
we came home after late nights.
But so, and my grandpawould be doing this, right?
So we'd be right, he'd be right alongsideus on the floor in the dark, howling
in the house for what seemed like hoursand then usually the bedroom group would
(17:39):
get out of their bed and do the same.
So it'd just be... I don't, Idon't, there was no purpose.
There was no point to any of this.
It was fantastic, weird,and totally wonderful.
And it is, again, one of the mostpoignant, wonderful memories I have
of my grandparents, that simple.
I can see why you remember that.
And all we did was we, you know,we were savoring too, together.
(18:02):
I think there's an aspect ofthat as well that you shared too.
This, this aspect of savoringwith others and how rich that
is as well as a shared practice.
And I think I want to say onemore thing about knees and hips,
since you brought it up, Henry.
So there is actually good evidence thatpracticing savoring decreases our pain,
(18:27):
our perception of pain in the body,and that's really important, right?
When you're dealing with chronic pain orjust some older, wiser body parts, and so
recent, a recent study I want to share,real quick here, they had folks train four
times with either a 20 minute savoringpractice or a slow breathing practice.
(18:52):
So just four sessions training througheither slow breathing or savoring.
And these were individuals, theparticipants were individuals
who had diagnosed rheumatoidarthritis, so they know pain.
And after those just fourtrainings, they came in for a
final practice in an fMRI machine.
So, the researchers were looking atwhat's happening in their brains during
(19:12):
the practice, what areas are lightingup, and they found that folks in
the savoring group had significantlyincreased blood flow in the ventromedial
prefrontal cortex, which is important.
So the VMPFC, as it's sometimescalled, is associated with things like
(19:33):
decision making, social cognition,kind of like how we relate and
interact with others in the world,also regulation of negative emotions.
So when we're activating this area,when it's working, when it's getting
exercise, that is a good thing.
And savoring does that.
Howling in the dark, in your houseactivates your ventromedial prefrontal
(19:54):
cortex in ways that support your kneesand back when you need to stand up
again and actually to that note ofpain, they also gave participants a
thermal stimulus during this practice,which is their research term for
like a hot prod, like a hot poke.
A hot stick
(20:15):
But interestingly when they gavehim that little hot poke, the
savoring group reported less painthan the slow breathing group, which
I was actually surprised about.
I think that's super interesting.
Savoring was more powerful toreduce pain than slow breathing.
So get on the ground, play with thosekids the best you can, it can really
(20:38):
actually help reduce pain, improveyour mood, activate your VMPFC.
This is super helpful.
So I hope you're feeling like savoringis worth your time, everybody, Because
it actually kind of takes no time.
We're already there.
We can find something to savor.
It is like self care plus so much more.
(20:59):
And as we close here, I'm going to, I wantto, I want to savor one of my favorite
quotes that I think emphasizes this.
I know I've read this quote before andI will keep reading it again and again
as we savor more as a global community.
I think it is spot on.
This is from author E. B. White.
Here's what he wrote.
(21:20):
"Every morning I awake tornbetween a desire to save the world
and an inclination to savor it.
This makes it hard to plan the day.
But if we forget to savor the world, whatpossible reason do we have for saving it?
In a way, the savoring must come first."
(21:42):
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It is not intended to provide medicaladvice and is not a replacement for advice
(22:05):
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