July 2, 2025 • 23 mins
Join us (Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr. Aimee Prasek) for a conversation about awe and authenticity. This is also the beginning of a month-long focus here at the podcast on how to uncover your authentic self. In this first episode, we'll highlight three big obstacles to authenticity. The first is the creation and impacts of a 'false self,' often developed during adolescence and driven by the need to satisfy external pressures. The second is an externally-focused search for the self that if we don't course-correct, always results in an exhausting and endless external search for the self. The last obstacle is that we tend to make this search for our true self into a big, complicated, spiritual pursuit of enlightenment. Instead, we see living authentically as a continuous, ordinary process, integral to achieving joy and contentment. Be sure to listen in for next episode as we dive deeper into authenticity.
If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts!
Sources and Notes:
- Joy Lab Program: Take the next leap in your wellbeing journey with step-by-step practices to help you build and maintain the elements of joy in your life.
- Healing and the Mind (Bill Moyers)
- The philosopher Aimee was trying to remember... Ludwig Wittgenstein and his work Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus
Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program.
Please see our terms for more information.
If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call the NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-6264 available Monday through Friday, 10 a.m. – 10 p.m., ET. OR text "HelpLine" to 62640 or email NAMI at helpline@nami.org. Visit NAMI for more. You can also call or text SAMHSA at 988 or chat 988lifeline.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast,where we help you uncover and
(00:03):
foster your most joyful self.
Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr.Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of
soulful and scientifically sound tools tospark your joy, even when it feels dark.
When you're ready to experiment withmore joy, combine this podcast with the
full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
(00:26):
Hello.
I'm Henry Emmons andwelcome back to Joy Lab.
And I am Aimee Prasek.
So we are talking about Awe, ourElement, of Joy for July, doing that by
talking about authenticity this month.
"Awe-thenticity."
I was wondering if thatwas the connection.
(00:47):
I don't know if that'swhat brought this up.
I hope it was more, uh, it wasdeeper than that, but it's possible.
Well, yeah, it, it is deeper.
So we are talking about authenticity,I'd say amidst Awe, because seeing
awe around us and within us isa really good way to uncover our
(01:08):
authenticity, to let our true selfrise up if we've buried it for a while.
And I'll kind of quote Thomas Merton here.
I would say that he suggested that aweis a really effective tool "to finally
come to the conclusion that my highestambition is to be what I already am."
(01:29):
And so over the next month, we'll exploresome obstacles that might come up as we
work on this being what I already am.
We'll also get into how to practiceawe, to uncover your true self, your
authenticity, and how to live from thatspace more in tune with that real you,
(01:49):
awesome nature that is already within you.
So two obstacles that I wannacall out today that we'll work on.
The first is our creation ofsomething called a false self.
And then the second one is our sincerebut usually unhelpful effort to keep
(02:12):
looking for our true self externally.
And then Henry, do you haveanother one you wanna add?
You know, I can think ofanother one, but I'm gonna save
it for later if that's okay.
Just to see where we go withthese first two, 'cause these
are really important and...
awesome.
yeah, just, just a, justa little teaser there.
(02:33):
Yes.
I love that.
Okay, so we'll get intothat one a little later.
It'll be a good one, I am sure.
All right.
The first obstacle, so thedevelopment of a false self.
This is a concept, that Dr.Donald Winnicott brought forward.
So he was a pediatricianand psychoanalyst.
(02:54):
He was really interested in the morekind of unconscious drivers that impact
our mental health, particularly --well,and our development-- particularly
in this case, kind of what we gatherup in adolescence, but the false
self is not limited to adolescence.
But it adolescence is a pretty, apretty big time for it, isn't it?
(03:16):
Yes.
That's why he focuses entire work,mainly on that issue, I think.
Yeah.
Winnicott really identified how we kindof create this false self, essentially
how we discount our own needs and desiresand we change or direct our behavior,
our emotions, like how we show up inthe world to satisfy external pressures.
(03:43):
To please others.
So, if this is something thatyou're really resonating with as I'm
talking here, this consistent kind ofmodifying how you show up to please
others, perhaps, or even not showingup, I think is an important point.
Like, hiding yourself so you don't facethe criticism you think might be coming.
If this deeply resonates with you, thenit's probably something you learned
(04:07):
as a kid, as Henry noted, very common.
We've all done this.
and we can create this false selfout of a real need, like when we're
trying to survive external threatslike racism or biases, stigmas.
As a kid, perhaps your parent or adultin the home as abusive in some way.
(04:28):
So there are like some real survivalreasons that we change how we show up.
We put on a mask, we stuff things down.
We hide, all to prevent harm.
And so if you have had to have donethat, I think the first thing to
know is that this creation of afalse self, it is not permanent.
(04:49):
Those coping skills can be changed.
Those masks can come off.
And we also might create this false selffor reasons that may not seem so survival
focus, but are super strong as well.
We may do it just to people please, toavoid conflict, to fit in, like thanks
(05:11):
social media for putting more pressureon that, more visibility to constantly
sort of, um, into those spaces or to, toconstantly be putting on a mask to sort
of externally look a certain way perhaps.
So we might also put a mask onto just like join a group to
(05:31):
feel like we fit into a group.
There are lots of reasons why we do this.
I'll give an, I think an examplethat has been rising up for me lately
as we've been thinking about this.
I remember that my dad hated his job.
So he was a CPA like an earlytech entrepreneur, but he and
(05:52):
he never talked about his work.
It was so obvious that it wasjust like sucking his existence.
Never wanted to talk about it.
And about seven years ago, I learnedthat he actually wanted to be a
park ranger, so he's since passed.
Oh, no kidding.
I know.
I was like, what?
I thought he was superinto finances or something.
(06:15):
I, I learned he went backto college to do that.
When he was young, he kind of took sometime off after high school or whatever.
But, it was during a summer internshipthat he was part of this park
system doing boat tours for folks.
So he was taking folks on this big, I,I think it was Lake Shasta, and he was
(06:35):
taking folks on these boat tours andmost of the people that were going on,
it was kind of like a bougie boat tour.
So, the folks he was drivingaround had a ton of money.
They had these massive houses alongthe lake, and they'd go on these boat
tours and they'd talk about theirmoney and their houses their boats
that they weren't on at that momentand he, I think he just got entranced
(06:59):
by it, truly like he perceived themhaving power, which they did, right?
Money gives us that in thisculture, power not wisdom.
Power, not joy, power, nothappiness, or authenticity.
But, I think he saw thatand thought, oh, this is it.
So he left his passion for theoutdoors and he became a CPA.
(07:21):
Nothing wrong with CPAs, but I thinklike the exact opposite of a park
ranger would probably be a CPA.
Not good or bad, if you wanna be a parkranger, you probably shouldn't be a CPA.
You wanna be a CPA, you probablyshouldn't be a park ranger.
Right.
Yeah.
But, you know, so he did that.
He got his big house, he got thatmoney, and he also lost it, which
(07:44):
is the thing about putting masks on.
They can fall off,
Mm-hmm.
And when that was who he thoughthe was, what he thought he was,
when that mask went away, I thinkhe felt like he really disappeared.
Hm.
You know, everything,everything went away.
(08:06):
There was nothing to anchor into,
and it can be really, really unsettling.
Mm-hmm.
So there's a millionreasons why we do this.
It's so common, but wedon't have to do this.
We can get outta this.
We can find more power, our power inour authenticity, rather than these
masks that can be taken away from us.
(08:28):
Yeah, that's a great example, Aimee.
And you know, as you said earlier,I don't think that that this putting
on masks stops at adolescence.
You know, I mean, it, I do thinkit's intensified that, and the,
the, I mean, just sheer the sheerdesire to fit in, probably every
one of us put masks on at that age.
(08:50):
But, you know, I, I also thinkthat these masks we wear are, well
they're often driven by ego oryou know, desire for something.
They're not always, least not inthe sense we've been talking about.
So, just as an example, I thinkthat oftentimes we aspire to be
like somebody that we admire,like a teacher or a mentor.
(09:14):
And that actually might be a very positivething, kind of adaptive or it helps us
get, maybe get out of ourselves or youknow, become a better person in, in some
ways, but after a while, even if it liftsus up, I think ultimately it's still not
(09:35):
the same as really being ourselves in theway that Thomas Merton was talking about.
Hmm.
So when I was in my early thirties, Iwas just starting out as a psychiatrist
and I already had a very strongholistic orientation, and I remember
(09:55):
probably a lot of people my ageremember watching this special on PBS
that was done by a journalist namedBill Moyers, and it was called Healing
and the Mind, and it was fantastic.
It was just music to my ears.
But there was one episode, I thinkthere were, he highlighted four or
(10:17):
five different holistic kinds ofprograms, but one of them in particular
just captivated me and it was aboutthis man that nobody had ever heard
of at the time, John Kabat Zinn.
And you know, he created this programcalled Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction,
which just was compelling to me.
(10:39):
Yeah.
So much so that, I mean, I think I wasjust two or three years into my work as
a psychiatrist and I just jumped on it.
I, I found out where he was teaching.
I went out and trained with him, outeast, and I remember very clearly during
this training he and his, his teachingpartner, Saki Santorelli, they, they,
(11:04):
they talked about how, you know, weneed to make this our own somehow.
You know, we need to findour own voice in this.
We can't just parrot, you know,what they say or what they do.
However, I was so inexperienced,insecure, plus I put the two
of them up on a pedestal.
(11:25):
So for years I can just hear myselfrepeating things that they'd say, trying
to say it in, you know, John Kabat Zinn'seastern, Boston accent, which, you know,
I'm terrible at capturing accents, so,
I love that you had a Boston accent.
Well, I didn't really, Ijust, I gave up on that.
But still, you know, I mean.
(11:47):
You, you get it?
Yeah.
So after a few years, you know, Ijust realized I had to find some
other ways to talk about mindfulnessrather than just doing, kind of
using their words over and over.
So I took a sabbatical and I soughtout some other teachers and workshops
that I thought would, were gettingat something very similar, but using
(12:08):
different language and actually less,less steeped in, in Buddhist thought,
you know, trying to find ways toappeal to a broader group of people.
And I also tried really consciously toadapt it more intentionally to my work as
a psychiatrist and applying it directlyto things like depression and anxiety.
(12:30):
And that just really worked for me.
So, I kind of phased out of teachingMBSR, which was actually great, you
know, Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction.
But really it wasn't until I stoppedtrying to be John Kabat Zinn took off
that mask and really made it my own, thatthings really started to click for me.
(12:51):
And I think that that's, that'swhen it kind of opened me up to
writing books in my own voice.
you know, giving talks, workshops, andkind of in, in some ways even the seeds
for, for Joy Lab, I think came outof that journey to true self for me.
I love that.
I, it's making me think there's adifference between washable face paint
(13:15):
and like full mask and shield of armor.
Ah.
And I think it's kind of funto put some face paint on.
Sometimes it makes you, maybe youhave a little bit more confidence,
Yeah.
you try
something new.
Like, I remember when I thought runningwas way to enlightenment, maybe like
runners, had some kind of knowledge
(13:36):
Uhhuh.
the world that I might wanna act.
I wanna be part of the runner subculture.
Yeah.
Put that washable face paint on for liketwo times, then wash that off, 'cause
I was like, Nope, I am not a runner.
Running is a bad idea.
I've said that before.
Nothing wrong with trying it on.
You still see my face.
(13:57):
I was dying, panting even amidst that facepaint looked like this was the end of me.
That's, you can wash it off, right?
There's like something kindof fun about trying things on.
I like that.
Maybe we can kind of think about thesemasks, you know, in a bit of a spectrum, a
Yeah.
And they're not all bad,
(14:19):
no.
Washable face paint to, armor.
but you do eventually wash it off.
You've taken off the JohnKabat Zinn face paint.
So let's, let's dive into this secondobstacle related, is that we focused
our search for our true self externally.
(14:40):
So I think this can be sneaky.
As I said, it's similar to creating afalse self, but in this case, instead of
trying to please someone else, I thinkwe have more of a focus unconsciously,
a drive to reject or diminish ourselvesand then find ourselves outside.
So we go on a journey to find ourselves,and once we've found ourselves
(15:03):
out there, then we're all good.
And I just don't think that's true.
We are right here.
You are right here in this moment.
There is no you out therethat you need to find.
There is no fixed, perfect version ofyourself that is separate from you.
(15:24):
There is not a you from 20 yearsago that is waiting to come back,
and that has lived like a separateunscarred life that you can back to.
So that person is you right here.
And I think it sounds so obvious whenwe kind of think through this but we can
really trick ourselves into thinking thatthere is some permanent, perfect iteration
(15:50):
of ourselves that lives externallyto us that we just have to get back
to or become so that we can be happy.
And I think that way of thinking,which is a rejection of ourself in the
moment, can keep us chasing somethingthat doesn't exist for our entire life.
And I think that's why Merton wrote,"Finally." So after all this searching,
(16:14):
finally I have stopped searchingoutside myself and have come to accept
myself, which is essential if wewant to really live authentically.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I think, I think you're right.
I think that Merton wrote that kindof later in his, his life even, you
know, he was somebody who really,I think the impression I have is he
(16:38):
kind of agonized, you know, he wasreally working it internally and,
and then was, became very open aboutthat, that journey and his writing.
And it, it just, it was sohelpful for me to read him.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But this, this also reminds me so muchof a quote from Parker Palmer, who, short
(16:59):
book called Let Your Life Speak, thewhole book, I think, is about finding
true self through vocation primarily,that that's the purpose of that book.
But I remember reading it right when Iwas struggling with how to become more
myself in my work as a psychiatrist,and it was just transforming for me.
(17:22):
So here's, here's the quoteI, I'm recalling from that.
"What a long time it can take. To becomethe person one has always been." And
I think there's something similar tothe Merton quote that, you know, to
become the person one has always been.
(17:42):
It just sounds like it shouldbe so easy, doesn't it?
Yeah.
I mean, what could be moreeasy and natural than becoming
the person you've always been?
But it is not that easy, at least in,in my experience and most people I know.
Yeah.
And this kind of brings me to the thirdobstacle that I was thinking of before.
(18:04):
So I'm, I'm gonna bring it in Aimee.
All right.
Let's hear it.
So, it seems to me that we oftenthink of the search for true self
as this deep spiritual journey.
I know I do that.
This is definitely something I'mprone to, and I love the idea of
(18:25):
thinking this, of this as a spiritualpath, but I think it's just too
easy to turn it into this big deal.
You know?
It's like it becomes a almost amystical quest, and then sometimes
starts to feel unattainable.
And, and actually we talked aboutthis in the past, I think with where
(18:48):
the experience of awe also can feellike it's just this extraordinary
thing that only happens underthese dramatic circumstances.
And I think we're trying, you know,with this conversation too, to make
both awe and this path to true selfmore accessible, more ordinary, I guess.
(19:11):
It's not something that hasto be super special or rare.
So I know this is, this is the firstepisode in, in what we're billing
as kind of a series on authenticity.
And we're gonna talk about this in afew different ways, and I'm hoping that
one of the things that comes out ofthis series is the idea that there is
(19:33):
nothing extraordinary about this path.
It is the most ordinary thingever, because whether we think
about it or not, every one ofus is somewhere along that path.
Most of us just don't know it.
I mean, we don't think aboutit, but I think this is, this
(19:54):
is the work of our lifetime.
This is the primary work ofour lifetime, and there is no
end to it while we are alive.
Because we're always changing.
Each new moment brings newcircumstances that call for
something somewhat different from us.
But there is a big irony orcontradiction here, a big one, and
(20:19):
that is we have freedom of choice.
And strange as it sounds, we canchoose not to be fully ourselves.
And in that sense, I think that, youknow, we can fail to live our own lives.
(20:40):
I don't want to do that.
And I think in the end,none of us really want that.
So I am just so glad we're talkingabout authenticity, about true self.
I, I get very passionate about this.
I just think it's so importantand I see it as a, a really
central part of a joyful life.
(21:01):
Almost like it's, it's the infrastructureor it's the undercurrent to joy.
Because when we become ourselves,there's a lot of unnecessary things that
just drop away, which frees up so muchenergy we can let go of so many burdens.
(21:24):
There's just a lot more room forthese elements that bring us joy.
A choice.
I'm just thinking through this.
We can choose to not fully ourselves.
There's a, I'm gonna, I cannot rememberthe philosopher... Wittgenstein...
I'll put it in the show notes, buthe talks about how we understand the
(21:49):
purpose of life, like our true self,then we stop talking about it because
the purpose of life is to live life.
It's funny that we're talking about itcompletely here, so maybe... but I I mean
there's, yeah, it's like the choices.
It's in those actions that we make daily.
(22:09):
I love bringing awe, bringing thissearch for self down to just this daily
practice that is available to us at everymoment and doesn't have to be, out there,
doesn't have to be so intimidating.
So yeah, let's do that this monthas we work through our element
(22:32):
of awe and through authenticity.
We'll do that through these episodes,learning how to practice that.
I wanna close with some wisdom fromLao Tzu, from the Tao Te Ching.
I think it's a good reminderas we work to kind of shake off
this false self and these masks.
Here it is.
(22:55):
"When you are content to be simplyyourself and don't compare or
compete. Everybody will respect you."
Thank you for listeningto the Joy Lab podcast.
If you enjoy today's show, visitJoyLab.coach to learn more
about the full Joy Lab program.
Be sure to rate and review us whereveryou listen to your favorite podcasts.
(23:19):
Please remember that thiscontent is for informational
and educational purposes only.
It is not intended to provide medicaladvice and is not a replacement for advice
and treatment from a medical professional.
Please consult your doctor orother qualified health professional
before beginning any diet change,supplement, or lifestyle program.
(23:40):
Please see our terms for more information.
Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast,where we help you uncover and
(00:03):
foster your most joyful self.
Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr.Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of
soulful and scientifically sound tools tospark your joy, even when it feels dark.
When you're ready to experiment withmore joy, combine this podcast with the
full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
(00:26):
Hello.
I'm Henry Emmons andwelcome back to Joy Lab.
And I am Aimee Prasek.
So we are talking about Awe, ourElement, of Joy for July, doing that by
talking about authenticity this month.
"Awe-thenticity."
I was wondering if thatwas the connection.
(00:47):
I don't know if that'swhat brought this up.
I hope it was more, uh, it wasdeeper than that, but it's possible.
Well, yeah, it, it is deeper.
So we are talking about authenticity,I'd say amidst Awe, because seeing
awe around us and within us isa really good way to uncover our
(01:08):
authenticity, to let our true selfrise up if we've buried it for a while.
And I'll kind of quote Thomas Merton here.
I would say that he suggested that aweis a really effective tool "to finally
come to the conclusion that my highestambition is to be what I already am."
(01:29):
And so over the next month, we'll exploresome obstacles that might come up as we
work on this being what I already am.
We'll also get into how to practiceawe, to uncover your true self, your
authenticity, and how to live from thatspace more in tune with that real you,
(01:49):
awesome nature that is already within you.
So two obstacles that I wannacall out today that we'll work on.
The first is our creation ofsomething called a false self.
And then the second one is our sincerebut usually unhelpful effort to keep
(02:12):
looking for our true self externally.
And then Henry, do you haveanother one you wanna add?
You know, I can think ofanother one, but I'm gonna save
it for later if that's okay.
Just to see where we go withthese first two, 'cause these
are really important and...
awesome.
yeah, just, just a, justa little teaser there.
(02:33):
Yes.
I love that.
Okay, so we'll get intothat one a little later.
It'll be a good one, I am sure.
All right.
The first obstacle, so thedevelopment of a false self.
This is a concept, that Dr.Donald Winnicott brought forward.
So he was a pediatricianand psychoanalyst.
(02:54):
He was really interested in the morekind of unconscious drivers that impact
our mental health, particularly --well,and our development-- particularly
in this case, kind of what we gatherup in adolescence, but the false
self is not limited to adolescence.
But it adolescence is a pretty, apretty big time for it, isn't it?
(03:16):
Yes.
That's why he focuses entire work,mainly on that issue, I think.
Yeah.
Winnicott really identified how we kindof create this false self, essentially
how we discount our own needs and desiresand we change or direct our behavior,
our emotions, like how we show up inthe world to satisfy external pressures.
(03:43):
To please others.
So, if this is something thatyou're really resonating with as I'm
talking here, this consistent kind ofmodifying how you show up to please
others, perhaps, or even not showingup, I think is an important point.
Like, hiding yourself so you don't facethe criticism you think might be coming.
If this deeply resonates with you, thenit's probably something you learned
(04:07):
as a kid, as Henry noted, very common.
We've all done this.
and we can create this false selfout of a real need, like when we're
trying to survive external threatslike racism or biases, stigmas.
As a kid, perhaps your parent or adultin the home as abusive in some way.
(04:28):
So there are like some real survivalreasons that we change how we show up.
We put on a mask, we stuff things down.
We hide, all to prevent harm.
And so if you have had to have donethat, I think the first thing to
know is that this creation of afalse self, it is not permanent.
(04:49):
Those coping skills can be changed.
Those masks can come off.
And we also might create this false selffor reasons that may not seem so survival
focus, but are super strong as well.
We may do it just to people please, toavoid conflict, to fit in, like thanks
(05:11):
social media for putting more pressureon that, more visibility to constantly
sort of, um, into those spaces or to, toconstantly be putting on a mask to sort
of externally look a certain way perhaps.
So we might also put a mask onto just like join a group to
(05:31):
feel like we fit into a group.
There are lots of reasons why we do this.
I'll give an, I think an examplethat has been rising up for me lately
as we've been thinking about this.
I remember that my dad hated his job.
So he was a CPA like an earlytech entrepreneur, but he and
(05:52):
he never talked about his work.
It was so obvious that it wasjust like sucking his existence.
Never wanted to talk about it.
And about seven years ago, I learnedthat he actually wanted to be a
park ranger, so he's since passed.
Oh, no kidding.
I know.
I was like, what?
I thought he was superinto finances or something.
(06:15):
I, I learned he went backto college to do that.
When he was young, he kind of took sometime off after high school or whatever.
But, it was during a summer internshipthat he was part of this park
system doing boat tours for folks.
So he was taking folks on this big, I,I think it was Lake Shasta, and he was
(06:35):
taking folks on these boat tours andmost of the people that were going on,
it was kind of like a bougie boat tour.
So, the folks he was drivingaround had a ton of money.
They had these massive houses alongthe lake, and they'd go on these boat
tours and they'd talk about theirmoney and their houses their boats
that they weren't on at that momentand he, I think he just got entranced
(06:59):
by it, truly like he perceived themhaving power, which they did, right?
Money gives us that in thisculture, power not wisdom.
Power, not joy, power, nothappiness, or authenticity.
But, I think he saw thatand thought, oh, this is it.
So he left his passion for theoutdoors and he became a CPA.
(07:21):
Nothing wrong with CPAs, but I thinklike the exact opposite of a park
ranger would probably be a CPA.
Not good or bad, if you wanna be a parkranger, you probably shouldn't be a CPA.
You wanna be a CPA, you probablyshouldn't be a park ranger.
Right.
Yeah.
But, you know, so he did that.
He got his big house, he got thatmoney, and he also lost it, which
(07:44):
is the thing about putting masks on.
They can fall off,
Mm-hmm.
And when that was who he thoughthe was, what he thought he was,
when that mask went away, I thinkhe felt like he really disappeared.
Hm.
You know, everything,everything went away.
(08:06):
There was nothing to anchor into,
and it can be really, really unsettling.
Mm-hmm.
So there's a millionreasons why we do this.
It's so common, but wedon't have to do this.
We can get outta this.
We can find more power, our power inour authenticity, rather than these
masks that can be taken away from us.
(08:28):
Yeah, that's a great example, Aimee.
And you know, as you said earlier,I don't think that that this putting
on masks stops at adolescence.
You know, I mean, it, I do thinkit's intensified that, and the,
the, I mean, just sheer the sheerdesire to fit in, probably every
one of us put masks on at that age.
(08:50):
But, you know, I, I also thinkthat these masks we wear are, well
they're often driven by ego oryou know, desire for something.
They're not always, least not inthe sense we've been talking about.
So, just as an example, I thinkthat oftentimes we aspire to be
like somebody that we admire,like a teacher or a mentor.
(09:14):
And that actually might be a very positivething, kind of adaptive or it helps us
get, maybe get out of ourselves or youknow, become a better person in, in some
ways, but after a while, even if it liftsus up, I think ultimately it's still not
(09:35):
the same as really being ourselves in theway that Thomas Merton was talking about.
Hmm.
So when I was in my early thirties, Iwas just starting out as a psychiatrist
and I already had a very strongholistic orientation, and I remember
(09:55):
probably a lot of people my ageremember watching this special on PBS
that was done by a journalist namedBill Moyers, and it was called Healing
and the Mind, and it was fantastic.
It was just music to my ears.
But there was one episode, I thinkthere were, he highlighted four or
(10:17):
five different holistic kinds ofprograms, but one of them in particular
just captivated me and it was aboutthis man that nobody had ever heard
of at the time, John Kabat Zinn.
And you know, he created this programcalled Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction,
which just was compelling to me.
(10:39):
Yeah.
So much so that, I mean, I think I wasjust two or three years into my work as
a psychiatrist and I just jumped on it.
I, I found out where he was teaching.
I went out and trained with him, outeast, and I remember very clearly during
this training he and his, his teachingpartner, Saki Santorelli, they, they,
(11:04):
they talked about how, you know, weneed to make this our own somehow.
You know, we need to findour own voice in this.
We can't just parrot, you know,what they say or what they do.
However, I was so inexperienced,insecure, plus I put the two
of them up on a pedestal.
(11:25):
So for years I can just hear myselfrepeating things that they'd say, trying
to say it in, you know, John Kabat Zinn'seastern, Boston accent, which, you know,
I'm terrible at capturing accents, so,
I love that you had a Boston accent.
Well, I didn't really, Ijust, I gave up on that.
But still, you know, I mean.
(11:47):
You, you get it?
Yeah.
So after a few years, you know, Ijust realized I had to find some
other ways to talk about mindfulnessrather than just doing, kind of
using their words over and over.
So I took a sabbatical and I soughtout some other teachers and workshops
that I thought would, were gettingat something very similar, but using
(12:08):
different language and actually less,less steeped in, in Buddhist thought,
you know, trying to find ways toappeal to a broader group of people.
And I also tried really consciously toadapt it more intentionally to my work as
a psychiatrist and applying it directlyto things like depression and anxiety.
(12:30):
And that just really worked for me.
So, I kind of phased out of teachingMBSR, which was actually great, you
know, Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction.
But really it wasn't until I stoppedtrying to be John Kabat Zinn took off
that mask and really made it my own, thatthings really started to click for me.
(12:51):
And I think that that's, that'swhen it kind of opened me up to
writing books in my own voice.
you know, giving talks, workshops, andkind of in, in some ways even the seeds
for, for Joy Lab, I think came outof that journey to true self for me.
I love that.
I, it's making me think there's adifference between washable face paint
(13:15):
and like full mask and shield of armor.
Ah.
And I think it's kind of funto put some face paint on.
Sometimes it makes you, maybe youhave a little bit more confidence,
Yeah.
you try
something new.
Like, I remember when I thought runningwas way to enlightenment, maybe like
runners, had some kind of knowledge
(13:36):
Uhhuh.
the world that I might wanna act.
I wanna be part of the runner subculture.
Yeah.
Put that washable face paint on for liketwo times, then wash that off, 'cause
I was like, Nope, I am not a runner.
Running is a bad idea.
I've said that before.
Nothing wrong with trying it on.
You still see my face.
(13:57):
I was dying, panting even amidst that facepaint looked like this was the end of me.
That's, you can wash it off, right?
There's like something kindof fun about trying things on.
I like that.
Maybe we can kind of think about thesemasks, you know, in a bit of a spectrum, a
Yeah.
And they're not all bad,
(14:19):
no.
Washable face paint to, armor.
but you do eventually wash it off.
You've taken off the JohnKabat Zinn face paint.
So let's, let's dive into this secondobstacle related, is that we focused
our search for our true self externally.
(14:40):
So I think this can be sneaky.
As I said, it's similar to creating afalse self, but in this case, instead of
trying to please someone else, I thinkwe have more of a focus unconsciously,
a drive to reject or diminish ourselvesand then find ourselves outside.
So we go on a journey to find ourselves,and once we've found ourselves
(15:03):
out there, then we're all good.
And I just don't think that's true.
We are right here.
You are right here in this moment.
There is no you out therethat you need to find.
There is no fixed, perfect version ofyourself that is separate from you.
(15:24):
There is not a you from 20 yearsago that is waiting to come back,
and that has lived like a separateunscarred life that you can back to.
So that person is you right here.
And I think it sounds so obvious whenwe kind of think through this but we can
really trick ourselves into thinking thatthere is some permanent, perfect iteration
(15:50):
of ourselves that lives externallyto us that we just have to get back
to or become so that we can be happy.
And I think that way of thinking,which is a rejection of ourself in the
moment, can keep us chasing somethingthat doesn't exist for our entire life.
And I think that's why Merton wrote,"Finally." So after all this searching,
(16:14):
finally I have stopped searchingoutside myself and have come to accept
myself, which is essential if wewant to really live authentically.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I think, I think you're right.
I think that Merton wrote that kindof later in his, his life even, you
know, he was somebody who really,I think the impression I have is he
(16:38):
kind of agonized, you know, he wasreally working it internally and,
and then was, became very open aboutthat, that journey and his writing.
And it, it just, it was sohelpful for me to read him.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But this, this also reminds me so muchof a quote from Parker Palmer, who, short
(16:59):
book called Let Your Life Speak, thewhole book, I think, is about finding
true self through vocation primarily,that that's the purpose of that book.
But I remember reading it right when Iwas struggling with how to become more
myself in my work as a psychiatrist,and it was just transforming for me.
(17:22):
So here's, here's the quoteI, I'm recalling from that.
"What a long time it can take. To becomethe person one has always been." And
I think there's something similar tothe Merton quote that, you know, to
become the person one has always been.
(17:42):
It just sounds like it shouldbe so easy, doesn't it?
Yeah.
I mean, what could be moreeasy and natural than becoming
the person you've always been?
But it is not that easy, at least in,in my experience and most people I know.
Yeah.
And this kind of brings me to the thirdobstacle that I was thinking of before.
(18:04):
So I'm, I'm gonna bring it in Aimee.
All right.
Let's hear it.
So, it seems to me that we oftenthink of the search for true self
as this deep spiritual journey.
I know I do that.
This is definitely something I'mprone to, and I love the idea of
(18:25):
thinking this, of this as a spiritualpath, but I think it's just too
easy to turn it into this big deal.
You know?
It's like it becomes a almost amystical quest, and then sometimes
starts to feel unattainable.
And, and actually we talked aboutthis in the past, I think with where
(18:48):
the experience of awe also can feellike it's just this extraordinary
thing that only happens underthese dramatic circumstances.
And I think we're trying, you know,with this conversation too, to make
both awe and this path to true selfmore accessible, more ordinary, I guess.
(19:11):
It's not something that hasto be super special or rare.
So I know this is, this is the firstepisode in, in what we're billing
as kind of a series on authenticity.
And we're gonna talk about this in afew different ways, and I'm hoping that
one of the things that comes out ofthis series is the idea that there is
(19:33):
nothing extraordinary about this path.
It is the most ordinary thingever, because whether we think
about it or not, every one ofus is somewhere along that path.
Most of us just don't know it.
I mean, we don't think aboutit, but I think this is, this
(19:54):
is the work of our lifetime.
This is the primary work ofour lifetime, and there is no
end to it while we are alive.
Because we're always changing.
Each new moment brings newcircumstances that call for
something somewhat different from us.
But there is a big irony orcontradiction here, a big one, and
(20:19):
that is we have freedom of choice.
And strange as it sounds, we canchoose not to be fully ourselves.
And in that sense, I think that, youknow, we can fail to live our own lives.
(20:40):
I don't want to do that.
And I think in the end,none of us really want that.
So I am just so glad we're talkingabout authenticity, about true self.
I, I get very passionate about this.
I just think it's so importantand I see it as a, a really
central part of a joyful life.
(21:01):
Almost like it's, it's the infrastructureor it's the undercurrent to joy.
Because when we become ourselves,there's a lot of unnecessary things that
just drop away, which frees up so muchenergy we can let go of so many burdens.
(21:24):
There's just a lot more room forthese elements that bring us joy.
A choice.
I'm just thinking through this.
We can choose to not fully ourselves.
There's a, I'm gonna, I cannot rememberthe philosopher... Wittgenstein...
I'll put it in the show notes, buthe talks about how we understand the
(21:49):
purpose of life, like our true self,then we stop talking about it because
the purpose of life is to live life.
It's funny that we're talking about itcompletely here, so maybe... but I I mean
there's, yeah, it's like the choices.
It's in those actions that we make daily.
(22:09):
I love bringing awe, bringing thissearch for self down to just this daily
practice that is available to us at everymoment and doesn't have to be, out there,
doesn't have to be so intimidating.
So yeah, let's do that this monthas we work through our element
(22:32):
of awe and through authenticity.
We'll do that through these episodes,learning how to practice that.
I wanna close with some wisdom fromLao Tzu, from the Tao Te Ching.
I think it's a good reminderas we work to kind of shake off
this false self and these masks.
Here it is.
(22:55):
"When you are content to be simplyyourself and don't compare or
compete. Everybody will respect you."
Thank you for listeningto the Joy Lab podcast.
If you enjoy today's show, visitJoyLab.coach to learn more
about the full Joy Lab program.
Be sure to rate and review us whereveryou listen to your favorite podcasts.
(23:19):
Please remember that thiscontent is for informational
and educational purposes only.
It is not intended to provide medicaladvice and is not a replacement for advice
and treatment from a medical professional.
Please consult your doctor orother qualified health professional
before beginning any diet change,supplement, or lifestyle program.
(23:40):
Please see our terms for more information.
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