June 11, 2025 • 28 mins
Are you a world-class worrier? If so, it's not a curse or a permanent state... In this episode, we explore the reasons behind worrying, from evolutionary survival mechanisms to personal past experiences and modeling from adults. We'll dig into the importance of recognizing your own worry patterns and strategies to help reduce how often you worry and how big those worries get. And then next episode, we'll share quick tactics to interrupt a worry cycle when it revs up.
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- Joy Lab Program: Take the next leap in your wellbeing journey with step-by-step practices to help you build and maintain the elements of joy in your life.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast,where we help you uncover and
(00:03):
foster your most joyful self.
Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr.Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of
soulful and scientifically sound tools tospark your joy, even when it feels dark.
When you're ready to experiment withmore joy, combine this podcast with the
full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
(00:25):
Hello, I'm Henry Emmonsand welcome to Joy Lab.
And I am Aimee Prasek.
So we are here in our month ofCuriosity, which is our Element of Joy.
And last episode we talked aboutuncertainty and Henry, you brought,
you brought up anticipatory anxietyas well, and I think a bit of an
(00:47):
undercurrent through all of that, whichmay have popped into everybody's head,
it didn't mine, was, oh,this sounds like worry.
Which yeah, uncertainty cancertainly make us worry.
Um, worry,
Yeah, the term anxiety couldjust be shortened to worry.
Worry.
(01:08):
It sounded really cool though, so,yeah, so we'll just go with that theme.
We'll, we'll shorten it.
We'll go with worry.
That's what we're getting into today.
Really reasons why we worry and Ithink that matters a lot, to understand
why we worry, because we can thenset ourselves up to practice, some
(01:28):
shifts, some strategies that canhelp us worry less in the long run.
And so next episode also, we're gonnatalk about kind of these shortcut,
simple strategies to cut worry, orcut kind of a, uh, a worry spiral.
And this one though is more onthese long-term identifying why
we worry and then a little bitmore on the long-term strategies.
(01:49):
And that's also what we do hereat Joy Lab, a lot of the work.
So let's get into it.
I don't really think I need todefine worry necessarily, but I will.
Maybe there's people out therewho have never experienced that.
Yeah.
Right.
All right.
I don't think they'relistening right now to us.
(02:11):
But cheers to you, Giveus your insights as well.
I will give the APA definition 'causeI think it's actually a bit helpful.
So they describe worry as (02:18):
"a state of mental distress or agitation due
to concern about an impending oranticipated event, threat or danger.
Difficult to control, persistent, andexcessive worry is a main symptom of
generalized anxiety disorder." And thenthey say, see, also meta worry." Which
(02:42):
is if worry can be worse, it's worryingabout worrying, which is I totally get.
So I think that'simportant to note as well.
'cause that can be the worstkind of worry in a lot of ways.
I'll give an example of howworry took shape for me.
Um, actually I'm gonna, if anybody's onYouTube, or you could go over to YouTube,
(03:06):
I'm going to pick up this little puppy
Oh gosh.
that is sleeping on my lap.
Aww man.
His name is T-Rex.
Um, so, join us on YouTubeeverybody, if you want a, a
picture of an adorable puppy.
So we recently got, got T-Rexrescued T-Rex and he's on my lap
(03:31):
'cause I was worried he was gonna beyelping, yipping in his his crate.
We're not done yet.
We'll see what happens.
But yeah, so we wanted to takehim to puppy school and I went
down this parvo rabbit hole.
So if anybody
Oh.
has had a puppy, you'll hear aboutparvo, which is a really bad virus,
(03:53):
super contagious, pretty deadly topuppies before they're vaccinated.
And I came out of the sort of Redditthreads and such with the conclusion
that we had to wrap 'em in a HAZMATsuit and keep 'em in a like isolated
sterilized room for four months.
Puppy in a bubble.
(04:13):
Yes.
Yes.
And so I, I realized then that day wenton and I was, you know, I had to take
him out and all I could see was parvoaround me, really sort of on high alert.
And you get a puppy, you know, I'm notsupposed to be amplifying my worries here.
So, I found it surprisinglyexhausting, actually.
(04:34):
Sort of thinking about all the ways thathe could contract parvo and all of the
things we needed to do to keep him safe.
I went to the vet the next day andessentially she said, just take him
to puppy school and here are some,some very clear things you can do
to reduce his risk, essentially.
There is a risk, but it's worth itbecause he needs to be socialized.
(04:57):
So be smart about it.
And it really hit me because I think whatI sort of realized, we have just lost
one of our cherished pups Baeken, and...two months ago, we didn't necessarily
intend to rescue T-Rex, but we wentto a rescue for puppy therapy and
ended up taking him home a week later.
(05:20):
I think it's great that yougot out of there with just one.
Oh lord.
There were four that I waspretty sure we were gonna take.
But I realize that, you know, my worrycertainly was amplified because of there
is real risk in parvo, but I was reallyjust feeling the, the loss of our last pup
too, and this idea that, oh my God, I, I'mstill grieving the loss of our last pup.
(05:45):
I cannot imagine losinganother one so soon.
So, you know, I, I think Iwas able to soften up on my
worry once I realized that.
'cause I realized that alot of this amplified worry
was actually a bit of grief.
And I think worry does that a lot to us.
It kind of tricks us, to focus on futurefears when it might be some past hurts
(06:08):
that maybe need a little bit more care.
So that, that's been my recent worryexperience and we'll get into a little bit
more of the layers here in this episode.
Henry, do you wanna define it more,how worry takes shape for you?
Well, I'm gonna surprise you, Aimee.
I'm actually not much of a worrier.
(06:30):
Actually, I could see that.
I used to be a little bit more, but
Yeah.
I have found a replacementthat I just like a lot better.
Can you guess what that is?
Mindfulness.
No, it's, it's called rumination.
That makes perfect sense.
(06:52):
Yes,
it just works better for me.
Lord.
Yeah.
it is no better thanworrying, I can tell you.
And I think they'reprobably just flip sides
of the
same coin.
yeah.
Both of them involve an overactive mind.
Yeah.
So there's one place, maybe we could itas to tone down the activity of the mind.
(07:18):
Both of those tend to focus onwhat's wrong or could be wrong.
Right.
There's another possibleplace to intervene.
The main difference, as I understandbetween worry and rumination is that
worry focuses on the future, whatcould go wrong, and rumination then
focuses on the past, what did gowrong or what do we think went wrong.
(07:41):
Yeah.
Both of them can make you feel bad.
Both of them can be hard to getout of, and it is a huge relief if
you can learn how to get a littledistance from either of those things.
Yeah.
And you can, right, we know that.
Yeah.
I, I think it's really helpfulactually to buddy up rumination and
(08:02):
worry 'cause you can just trade them.
They love to work together.
Yeah.
Yeah, they both pull us outtathe present moment, tricking us.
So actually I'll link to a recentepisode we did on rumination.
So if worrying is not your styleand you're a ruminator, we've
got a great episode for that.
(08:23):
I wanna say that worrying and ruminatingare very common, there's some research
that's found at least 40% of peoplefeel worried every single day.
Every single day feel worried.
So not just that you're having aworry pop up, but that's kind of this
little bit of this pervasive feeling.
So given how common worrying is andas we all know how it doesn't seem to
(08:48):
help us a whole lot, why do we worry?
There seems to be a bit of a primingin our system for it, given how
much we worry and how common it is.
So I'm gonna give an example of--hopefullythis will help us to describe it a
little bit more--how I think of worry.
I think of worry as aplayground inspector.
(09:10):
My husband is a playground inspector andso that's probably why I linked this up.
But his job is not to go to a playgroundand look for all of the fabulous,
wonderful ways kids are gonna have fun.
His job is to go to a playground and lookfor the things that can injure children.
It's a very different wayof seeing a playground.
(09:33):
All the terrible things that can go wrong.
He doesn't see monkeybars, he sees broken arms.
So that's kind of how I see worry.
It's like our playground inspectorlooking at the world, world for problems.
How can this go wrong?
How can this hurt me?
How can this hurt someone I love and itwants to assess everything that can go
(09:59):
wrong with the intention, with the goodidea that once assessed, then some harm
can be prevented, which can be great.
It can keep us safe in the right context.
Like for me, "don't do a back flip offthe monkey bars because you will get the
wind knocked out of you," was my lesson.
(10:21):
Which getting the wind, gettingthe wind knocked out of you, yes.
Is the worst feeling I. So when Isee monkey bars, I still get a little
surge of worry, a little shortnessof breath, and I think, all right,
no monkey bar back flips, which iseasier for me not to do anymore.
I'll just do them normally, or at leastone, maybe two if I'm feeling strong.
(10:45):
But you know, my worry decreases.
So, worry in its simplestsense, in its most effective
sense, is a survival mechanism.
"Stay off the monkey bars,Aimee," is the message for me.
Easy.
Thank you.
We talked about this last episode aswell with uncertainty and something
that we touched on then was volatility.
I wanna get into that a bit.
(11:06):
So, and specifically something calledhigh meta volatility relates here.
Last episode we noted volatility is astate that is unpredictable, unstable.
So if we're falling into that sort ofbelieving that the world is unstable,
that all these things are coming forus at some time at some place, then
(11:28):
it's probably no surprise that highmeta volatility, seeing those threats
everywhere, is associated with chronicstress, is associated with worry.
That might sound extreme,high meta volatility, but I
think this is very common.
I, I think we get warnedabout threats constantly.
(11:52):
Many that just won't touch us honestly.
We get breaking news constantly or fearmongered at, you know, that type of threat
based messaging, it creates volatility.
And if we hear it, we can't helpbut sort of take in some of that.
And I think it's important tonote that it's just not true.
So often the world is not quiteso unsafe as we might perceive
(12:18):
it to be based on that messaging.
There's a lot of room for improvement,but there is more goodness, there is
more right than wrong, so to speak.
And I think if that doesn't feeltrue for you, then I think it's
important to remember that we canrebuild our trust in the world.
I think it is essential actually, if wewanna live a good life, that we have to
(12:40):
trust ourselves, we have to trust thosearound us, that is paramount to survival.
It's paramount to flourishing.
And we just talked about thiskind of wiring for acute worry.
But more than that, we are absolutelywired to connect- to those around
us, to the world, around us, ratherthan be chronically scared of it.
(13:01):
And until we get outta thatspace, worry is the symptom.
Hmm.
Well, Aimee, your examplereminds me that I do, in fact
still worry from time to time.
Of course, you're wired for it.
So when I take my 3-year-oldgranddaughter to the park who is
(13:23):
highly skilled at climbing and
Oh
so into it.
yeah.
I am looking around to see whereshe might lose her grip and fall.
And if she does that, you know, maybeshe'll break her arm and then maybe I
won't be allowed to take her to the park
Oh Lord.
Right?
That's what worry does, right?
Takes us down all these steps.
(13:45):
Yeah.
but it also reminds me, your examplereminds me, as you said, that
anxiety is a built in survival skill.
It, it's.
But I think it's meant to besort of a specialty skill.
There are some people thatspecialize in it, so to speak.
You know, our ancestors historically,if they lived in a tribe of, let's
(14:07):
say, about 50 people, there mightbe only a handful, maybe or five of
'em who were anxiety specialists.
You know, their job would beto be a scout or a sentry.
Because they were soattuned to signs of danger.
They were the playgroundinspectors of their day.
(14:30):
But not everyone needs to bea sentry the rest of the tribe
could rest easier because therewas someone there to do that.
So I am still going to spot mygranddaughter when she's climbing up
higher than I think a 3-year-old shouldgo, at least for another year or two.
(14:51):
But I don't have to get caughtup in the fear that something
awful is going to happen.
We don't all have to obsessabout danger in the playground
because your husband is doing it
That's right.
and people like him.
Yeah.
This makes me think.
We can outsource our worries.
(15:12):
I know we, yeah.
We so often say not to outsourceour thinking, which, I think
is true in a lot of ways.
But when it comes to worrying, letthe people who are paid to worry about
this stuff take some burden off of you.
Yeah.
Um, And if that seems impossible, likeall those people must be terrible or
jaded or out to get us, and I'llreference the last phenomenon.
(15:35):
High meta volatility, right?
We can rebuild our trustin the world so that we can
outsource some of our worrying.
We can trust that somebody has worried forus and we can move in the world feeling
a little bit more connected and safe.
I love that.
So let's get into morereasons why we worry.
(15:57):
This one I love because Iresonate with it as well.
A big reason why we worry is thatwe think we are taking action.
Mm.
And this comes back to our conversationon uncertainty from last time, I think
too, and trying to get some control back.
So when we worry and then we start thiskind of endless cycle of pseudo problem
(16:23):
solving in our brain when we're workingon all the what ifs, the shoulds, the
what could I do's, all these scenariosin our mind when we work these through,
it can actually feel productive.
Like in little bits.
We get a moment of relief becausewe've created a sense of control.
(16:45):
A sense of control.
We've come to a possiblesolution in our mind.
So worry a sneaky like that.
The problem is that we rarely stopand say, great, I solved it, and
then we, we just move out of it.
Instead, we go down another what if,what could I, what should I do that
takes us down another worry spiral.
(17:05):
And additionally, so often the thingswe worry about are not in our control.
So no matter how much we run itthrough our head, that randomness,
that uncertainty doesn't change, butworrying feels like it changes those
calculations for enough little burstsof time that it can feel productive.
(17:26):
Yeah, and I, I think it, it actuallycan be productive sometimes, but in
small bursts and not all the time.
Right.
I'm, I'm thinking of an example here.
A lot of us have experienceded somethinglike this before taking a flight.
Okay?
So especially if we're goingon a big, expensive trip, or if
(17:49):
it's an early flight, we gottaget up and get to the airport.
I mean, it's really common, right?
To up maybe several times duringthe night or, and at least to
wake up or early, you know?
'cause
Oh yeah.
so much, I, I gotta get thereand I got so much I have to do.
And then you're thinkingof all the details, right?
So if you're flying in a group,traveling in a group, there, it is
(18:11):
important that at least one personworrying about some of this stuff.
Right.
You need to, to be about getting there intime to check in about having everybody's
ID and boarding pass and all of that.
Uhhuh.
so, so that is productive, I think.
But if the worry expands much beyondthat, let's say you start obsessing
(18:34):
about the weather and or about themechanical checkups that the crew has
to do, or you know, how experienced andhow skilled is this pilot that we have?
I mean, all of those things aretotally outside of our control.
You know, there's part of the brainthat might think if I check the weather
(18:55):
app enough times, maybe the weather isgoing to somehow go magically cooperate.
Of course it doesn't.
It makes zero difference, exceptthat it makes us miserable.
Now, we all know that it doesn't makesense to do this, but I think it gives
(19:16):
us a little sense of comfort that ifwe worry about all this, you know,
maybe the bad stuff won't happen.
Maybe there's some preemptive type thing.
But in reality, I think it's justamping up this feeling of anxiety
and, this uncomfortableness, whichis not all at all productive.
(19:39):
Hmm.
So that by the time we get onthe plane and it gets in the
air, we're just exhausted by it.
Yeah.
I'll just say Henry.
So I have, I have workedon my worry a lot.
I have come a long way.
I'm very proud of myself.
There is one worry I cannotshake and it's flying.
(20:01):
Oh, I
So
I shouldn't have picked that example.
It's a tough one.
It is a tough
one.
I hate, I don't, putting a bunchof land dwelling mammals in a
tin can, 40,000 feet in the skyrocketing at like 500 miles per hour.
I mean, it's insanity.
But you know, just thinking of shortbursts or a little bit of the worry.
I... so, one of my strategies toactually be able to fly, I don't know
(20:29):
if this is true, but I've heard thatif the plane is gonna crash, it's gonna
crash mo most likely within the firstfive minutes or the last five minutes.
Oh, well, you got a couple hoursin between where you can just
relax then.
I chill out.
Don't talk to me.
The first five of the last five, I amin deep breath work like strategies.
(20:51):
But
that, that kinda works.
Yeah,
It's uh, compressing it intoa small time period, which is
like not a bad strategy, aimee.
I thank you because I'm going with it.
I worry for the first five minutesand then I worry at the last five
minutes, but yeah, it does help.
So I don't, I don't know if that's astrategy for anybody, but you know,
(21:12):
there are some worries that are moredifficult to shake than others and some
that maybe you don't need to worry about.
I don't fly enough.
Maybe because I hate flying, but I don'tfly enough to have it be such an issue.
All right.
I wanna get into I think, one moreworry reason why we worry, that
hopefully we bring more awareness toit, we can reduce it and it has to do
(21:33):
with past experiences and modeling.
So with past experiences like my monkeybars, I still get a little short of
breath, as I said, when I see kidson monkey bars, 'cause I feel like
they're gonna fall land on their backs.
So that's a past experience thatgives me a little bit of worry,
which is completely logical, couldbe helpful as well as a safety tool.
(21:57):
but if you had something that reallyshook your system or something that
begins to really impact your dailylife in a negative way, then worry can
start to make your world pretty small.
And then here's where a generalizedanxiety disorder I think really comes in.
I referenced that with APA definition.
And this is where therapy can reallycome in and do some powerful work.
(22:21):
Different types of exposure therapy,DBT, CBT, there are lots of avenues to
develop some skills to not let thoseworries be in charge of your world.
And it doesn't have to stem from a pastexperience either to warrant therapy here.
I should note that even if you'reworried, doesn't have a clear line
to anything, these strategies, thesemodalities can be super helpful.
(22:45):
And then with modeling, it can be veryhelpful to take a compassionate glance
back into your childhood and see if therewas a worrier in your immediate circle.
Was there an adult who modeled worryas a way of handling a problem?
Or just met a volatility, sort ofworked in the world as a worrier?
(23:10):
If so, you have probably adoptedsome of those strategies.
That's just how it works.
And as we've said today,they are not permanent.
There is, there are many skillsthat you can build to reduce that.
Hmm.
This might be a good time just torevisit the concept of neuroplasticity.
(23:32):
And
Oh yeah.
how we are creating or undoingthe pathways in the brain.
I like the metaphor of creatingwalking paths in a grassy meadow
to talk about neuroplasticity.
So if a pathway has been created, let'ssay, either because of a traumatic
event or the modeling of a parent.
(23:55):
If we have walked that path enoughtimes, then we have created a real path.
It's so obviously a path that ifsomebody else who's never been here
comes to this meadow, they're probablygoing to take that same path, right?
Because it looks like a path.
And I think that's how theseworries tend to get generalized.
(24:18):
Something might come along that vaguely.
Reminds you of that big thing fromyour past, and sure enough, it
goes down that same old pathwayand strengthens it further.
And even if the event is completelyunrelated, you can still go and go
down that same well worn path of worry.
(24:40):
And I think this is happening to mostof us at a completely unconscious level.
I mean much of the time and we reallydon't want to keep walking these fear
pathways 'cause we are reinforcingthem and letting them get more
generalized then to other things.
That's why I think it's so important tobe doing some inner work like we do in the
(25:04):
Joy Lab program, to be able to see whatis happening inside of us in real time.
Because that gives us a chance tostep back and ask ourselves, do I
really want to go down this pathway?
And if the answer is no, it is possibleto make a different choice in that moment.
(25:27):
Yeah, we can make a different choice.
I think that's the biggest lesson here.
Worrying can seem so overwhelmingand out of our control, but
we can change these paths.
We, we really can I get on an airplane?
I don't like it, but I get on it.
We can do that in amillion different ways.
So
I wanna just like maybe touch a moment,
(25:48):
this is making me think a bit on maybe alast reason why we worry is that it has to
do with having too high of expectations.
And I don't wanna diginto this a whole lot.
Actually, you know what, I think I'mjust gonna put a pin on it for now.
I'll, I'll put a link into the shownotes for an episode on imposter
(26:11):
phenomenon that we got into alittle bit that talks about this.
But we're gonna talk about highexpectations and, and how that
can uh, show up in our world inways that can be kind of harmful.
We're gonna talk a lot aboutthat in the next couple months
in, our next batch of Elements.
So I'm gonna save that for, forthose episodes, but certainly that
(26:34):
can be ignition for for worry.
So head to the show notes forsome episodes if you wanna
follow up on that right now.
But I hope just in this conversationyou've got maybe a bit of a handle more on
why we might worry, why you might worry.
I hope you've felt some, someinsight there, some self-compassion
to approach your worry in alittle bit of a different way.
(26:57):
Understanding that we've got some wiringthat primes us to do this, sometimes it
can go too far, and we can change that.
So, make sure you join us fornext episode, we'll talk about
some more quick, fast actingstrategies to stop a worry cycle.
In the meantime, I'm goingto leave us with a little bit
of wisdom from Pema Chödrön.
(27:19):
Here it is.
"Everything that occurs is notonly usable and workable, but
is actually the path itself.
We can use everything that happensto us as the means for waking up.
We can use everything that occurs,whether it's our conflicting emotions
and thoughts or our seemingly outersituation to show us where we are asleep
(27:43):
and how we can wake up completely,utterly without reservations."
Thank you for listeningto the Joy Lab podcast.
If you enjoy today's show, visitJoyLab.coach to learn more
about the full Joy Lab program.
Be sure to rate and review us whereveryou listen to your favorite podcasts.
Please remember that thiscontent is for informational
(28:06):
and educational purposes only.
It is not intended to provide medicaladvice and is not a replacement for advice
and treatment from a medical professional.
Please consult your doctor orother qualified health professional
before beginning any diet change,supplement, or lifestyle program.
Please see our terms for more information.
Welcome to the Joy Lab podcast,where we help you uncover and
(00:03):
foster your most joyful self.
Your hosts, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr.Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of
soulful and scientifically sound tools tospark your joy, even when it feels dark.
When you're ready to experiment withmore joy, combine this podcast with the
full Joy Lab program over at JoyLab.coach
(00:25):
Hello, I'm Henry Emmonsand welcome to Joy Lab.
And I am Aimee Prasek.
So we are here in our month ofCuriosity, which is our Element of Joy.
And last episode we talked aboutuncertainty and Henry, you brought,
you brought up anticipatory anxietyas well, and I think a bit of an
(00:47):
undercurrent through all of that, whichmay have popped into everybody's head,
it didn't mine, was, oh,this sounds like worry.
Which yeah, uncertainty cancertainly make us worry.
Um, worry,
Yeah, the term anxiety couldjust be shortened to worry.
Worry.
(01:08):
It sounded really cool though, so,yeah, so we'll just go with that theme.
We'll, we'll shorten it.
We'll go with worry.
That's what we're getting into today.
Really reasons why we worry and Ithink that matters a lot, to understand
why we worry, because we can thenset ourselves up to practice, some
(01:28):
shifts, some strategies that canhelp us worry less in the long run.
And so next episode also, we're gonnatalk about kind of these shortcut,
simple strategies to cut worry, orcut kind of a, uh, a worry spiral.
And this one though is more onthese long-term identifying why
we worry and then a little bitmore on the long-term strategies.
(01:49):
And that's also what we do hereat Joy Lab, a lot of the work.
So let's get into it.
I don't really think I need todefine worry necessarily, but I will.
Maybe there's people out therewho have never experienced that.
Yeah.
Right.
All right.
I don't think they'relistening right now to us.
(02:11):
But cheers to you, Giveus your insights as well.
I will give the APA definition 'causeI think it's actually a bit helpful.
So they describe worry as (02:18):
"a state of mental distress or agitation due
to concern about an impending oranticipated event, threat or danger.
Difficult to control, persistent, andexcessive worry is a main symptom of
generalized anxiety disorder." And thenthey say, see, also meta worry." Which
(02:42):
is if worry can be worse, it's worryingabout worrying, which is I totally get.
So I think that'simportant to note as well.
'cause that can be the worstkind of worry in a lot of ways.
I'll give an example of howworry took shape for me.
Um, actually I'm gonna, if anybody's onYouTube, or you could go over to YouTube,
(03:06):
I'm going to pick up this little puppy
Oh gosh.
that is sleeping on my lap.
Aww man.
His name is T-Rex.
Um, so, join us on YouTubeeverybody, if you want a, a
picture of an adorable puppy.
So we recently got, got T-Rexrescued T-Rex and he's on my lap
(03:31):
'cause I was worried he was gonna beyelping, yipping in his his crate.
We're not done yet.
We'll see what happens.
But yeah, so we wanted to takehim to puppy school and I went
down this parvo rabbit hole.
So if anybody
Oh.
has had a puppy, you'll hear aboutparvo, which is a really bad virus,
(03:53):
super contagious, pretty deadly topuppies before they're vaccinated.
And I came out of the sort of Redditthreads and such with the conclusion
that we had to wrap 'em in a HAZMATsuit and keep 'em in a like isolated
sterilized room for four months.
Puppy in a bubble.
(04:13):
Yes.
Yes.
And so I, I realized then that day wenton and I was, you know, I had to take
him out and all I could see was parvoaround me, really sort of on high alert.
And you get a puppy, you know, I'm notsupposed to be amplifying my worries here.
So, I found it surprisinglyexhausting, actually.
(04:34):
Sort of thinking about all the ways thathe could contract parvo and all of the
things we needed to do to keep him safe.
I went to the vet the next day andessentially she said, just take him
to puppy school and here are some,some very clear things you can do
to reduce his risk, essentially.
There is a risk, but it's worth itbecause he needs to be socialized.
(04:57):
So be smart about it.
And it really hit me because I think whatI sort of realized, we have just lost
one of our cherished pups Baeken, and...two months ago, we didn't necessarily
intend to rescue T-Rex, but we wentto a rescue for puppy therapy and
ended up taking him home a week later.
(05:20):
I think it's great that yougot out of there with just one.
Oh lord.
There were four that I waspretty sure we were gonna take.
But I realize that, you know, my worrycertainly was amplified because of there
is real risk in parvo, but I was reallyjust feeling the, the loss of our last pup
too, and this idea that, oh my God, I, I'mstill grieving the loss of our last pup.
(05:45):
I cannot imagine losinganother one so soon.
So, you know, I, I think Iwas able to soften up on my
worry once I realized that.
'cause I realized that alot of this amplified worry
was actually a bit of grief.
And I think worry does that a lot to us.
It kind of tricks us, to focus on futurefears when it might be some past hurts
(06:08):
that maybe need a little bit more care.
So that, that's been my recent worryexperience and we'll get into a little bit
more of the layers here in this episode.
Henry, do you wanna define it more,how worry takes shape for you?
Well, I'm gonna surprise you, Aimee.
I'm actually not much of a worrier.
(06:30):
Actually, I could see that.
I used to be a little bit more, but
Yeah.
I have found a replacementthat I just like a lot better.
Can you guess what that is?
Mindfulness.
No, it's, it's called rumination.
That makes perfect sense.
(06:52):
Yes,
it just works better for me.
Lord.
Yeah.
it is no better thanworrying, I can tell you.
And I think they'reprobably just flip sides
of the
same coin.
yeah.
Both of them involve an overactive mind.
Yeah.
So there's one place, maybe we could itas to tone down the activity of the mind.
(07:18):
Both of those tend to focus onwhat's wrong or could be wrong.
Right.
There's another possibleplace to intervene.
The main difference, as I understandbetween worry and rumination is that
worry focuses on the future, whatcould go wrong, and rumination then
focuses on the past, what did gowrong or what do we think went wrong.
(07:41):
Yeah.
Both of them can make you feel bad.
Both of them can be hard to getout of, and it is a huge relief if
you can learn how to get a littledistance from either of those things.
Yeah.
And you can, right, we know that.
Yeah.
I, I think it's really helpfulactually to buddy up rumination and
(08:02):
worry 'cause you can just trade them.
They love to work together.
Yeah.
Yeah, they both pull us outtathe present moment, tricking us.
So actually I'll link to a recentepisode we did on rumination.
So if worrying is not your styleand you're a ruminator, we've
got a great episode for that.
(08:23):
I wanna say that worrying and ruminatingare very common, there's some research
that's found at least 40% of peoplefeel worried every single day.
Every single day feel worried.
So not just that you're having aworry pop up, but that's kind of this
little bit of this pervasive feeling.
So given how common worrying is andas we all know how it doesn't seem to
(08:48):
help us a whole lot, why do we worry?
There seems to be a bit of a primingin our system for it, given how
much we worry and how common it is.
So I'm gonna give an example of--hopefullythis will help us to describe it a
little bit more--how I think of worry.
I think of worry as aplayground inspector.
(09:10):
My husband is a playground inspector andso that's probably why I linked this up.
But his job is not to go to a playgroundand look for all of the fabulous,
wonderful ways kids are gonna have fun.
His job is to go to a playground and lookfor the things that can injure children.
It's a very different wayof seeing a playground.
(09:33):
All the terrible things that can go wrong.
He doesn't see monkeybars, he sees broken arms.
So that's kind of how I see worry.
It's like our playground inspectorlooking at the world, world for problems.
How can this go wrong?
How can this hurt me?
How can this hurt someone I love and itwants to assess everything that can go
(09:59):
wrong with the intention, with the goodidea that once assessed, then some harm
can be prevented, which can be great.
It can keep us safe in the right context.
Like for me, "don't do a back flip offthe monkey bars because you will get the
wind knocked out of you," was my lesson.
(10:21):
Which getting the wind, gettingthe wind knocked out of you, yes.
Is the worst feeling I. So when Isee monkey bars, I still get a little
surge of worry, a little shortnessof breath, and I think, all right,
no monkey bar back flips, which iseasier for me not to do anymore.
I'll just do them normally, or at leastone, maybe two if I'm feeling strong.
(10:45):
But you know, my worry decreases.
So, worry in its simplestsense, in its most effective
sense, is a survival mechanism.
"Stay off the monkey bars,Aimee," is the message for me.
Easy.
Thank you.
We talked about this last episode aswell with uncertainty and something
that we touched on then was volatility.
I wanna get into that a bit.
(11:06):
So, and specifically something calledhigh meta volatility relates here.
Last episode we noted volatility is astate that is unpredictable, unstable.
So if we're falling into that sort ofbelieving that the world is unstable,
that all these things are coming forus at some time at some place, then
(11:28):
it's probably no surprise that highmeta volatility, seeing those threats
everywhere, is associated with chronicstress, is associated with worry.
That might sound extreme,high meta volatility, but I
think this is very common.
I, I think we get warnedabout threats constantly.
(11:52):
Many that just won't touch us honestly.
We get breaking news constantly or fearmongered at, you know, that type of threat
based messaging, it creates volatility.
And if we hear it, we can't helpbut sort of take in some of that.
And I think it's important tonote that it's just not true.
So often the world is not quiteso unsafe as we might perceive
(12:18):
it to be based on that messaging.
There's a lot of room for improvement,but there is more goodness, there is
more right than wrong, so to speak.
And I think if that doesn't feeltrue for you, then I think it's
important to remember that we canrebuild our trust in the world.
I think it is essential actually, if wewanna live a good life, that we have to
(12:40):
trust ourselves, we have to trust thosearound us, that is paramount to survival.
It's paramount to flourishing.
And we just talked about thiskind of wiring for acute worry.
But more than that, we are absolutelywired to connect- to those around
us, to the world, around us, ratherthan be chronically scared of it.
(13:01):
And until we get outta thatspace, worry is the symptom.
Hmm.
Well, Aimee, your examplereminds me that I do, in fact
still worry from time to time.
Of course, you're wired for it.
So when I take my 3-year-oldgranddaughter to the park who is
(13:23):
highly skilled at climbing and
Oh
so into it.
yeah.
I am looking around to see whereshe might lose her grip and fall.
And if she does that, you know, maybeshe'll break her arm and then maybe I
won't be allowed to take her to the park
Oh Lord.
Right?
That's what worry does, right?
Takes us down all these steps.
(13:45):
Yeah.
but it also reminds me, your examplereminds me, as you said, that
anxiety is a built in survival skill.
It, it's.
But I think it's meant to besort of a specialty skill.
There are some people thatspecialize in it, so to speak.
You know, our ancestors historically,if they lived in a tribe of, let's
(14:07):
say, about 50 people, there mightbe only a handful, maybe or five of
'em who were anxiety specialists.
You know, their job would beto be a scout or a sentry.
Because they were soattuned to signs of danger.
They were the playgroundinspectors of their day.
(14:30):
But not everyone needs to bea sentry the rest of the tribe
could rest easier because therewas someone there to do that.
So I am still going to spot mygranddaughter when she's climbing up
higher than I think a 3-year-old shouldgo, at least for another year or two.
(14:51):
But I don't have to get caughtup in the fear that something
awful is going to happen.
We don't all have to obsessabout danger in the playground
because your husband is doing it
That's right.
and people like him.
Yeah.
This makes me think.
We can outsource our worries.
(15:12):
I know we, yeah.
We so often say not to outsourceour thinking, which, I think
is true in a lot of ways.
But when it comes to worrying, letthe people who are paid to worry about
this stuff take some burden off of you.
Yeah.
Um, And if that seems impossible, likeall those people must be terrible or
jaded or out to get us, and I'llreference the last phenomenon.
(15:35):
High meta volatility, right?
We can rebuild our trustin the world so that we can
outsource some of our worrying.
We can trust that somebody has worried forus and we can move in the world feeling
a little bit more connected and safe.
I love that.
So let's get into morereasons why we worry.
(15:57):
This one I love because Iresonate with it as well.
A big reason why we worry is thatwe think we are taking action.
Mm.
And this comes back to our conversationon uncertainty from last time, I think
too, and trying to get some control back.
So when we worry and then we start thiskind of endless cycle of pseudo problem
(16:23):
solving in our brain when we're workingon all the what ifs, the shoulds, the
what could I do's, all these scenariosin our mind when we work these through,
it can actually feel productive.
Like in little bits.
We get a moment of relief becausewe've created a sense of control.
(16:45):
A sense of control.
We've come to a possiblesolution in our mind.
So worry a sneaky like that.
The problem is that we rarely stopand say, great, I solved it, and
then we, we just move out of it.
Instead, we go down another what if,what could I, what should I do that
takes us down another worry spiral.
(17:05):
And additionally, so often the thingswe worry about are not in our control.
So no matter how much we run itthrough our head, that randomness,
that uncertainty doesn't change, butworrying feels like it changes those
calculations for enough little burstsof time that it can feel productive.
(17:26):
Yeah, and I, I think it, it actuallycan be productive sometimes, but in
small bursts and not all the time.
Right.
I'm, I'm thinking of an example here.
A lot of us have experienceded somethinglike this before taking a flight.
Okay?
So especially if we're goingon a big, expensive trip, or if
(17:49):
it's an early flight, we gottaget up and get to the airport.
I mean, it's really common, right?
To up maybe several times duringthe night or, and at least to
wake up or early, you know?
'cause
Oh yeah.
so much, I, I gotta get thereand I got so much I have to do.
And then you're thinkingof all the details, right?
So if you're flying in a group,traveling in a group, there, it is
(18:11):
important that at least one personworrying about some of this stuff.
Right.
You need to, to be about getting there intime to check in about having everybody's
ID and boarding pass and all of that.
Uhhuh.
so, so that is productive, I think.
But if the worry expands much beyondthat, let's say you start obsessing
(18:34):
about the weather and or about themechanical checkups that the crew has
to do, or you know, how experienced andhow skilled is this pilot that we have?
I mean, all of those things aretotally outside of our control.
You know, there's part of the brainthat might think if I check the weather
(18:55):
app enough times, maybe the weather isgoing to somehow go magically cooperate.
Of course it doesn't.
It makes zero difference, exceptthat it makes us miserable.
Now, we all know that it doesn't makesense to do this, but I think it gives
(19:16):
us a little sense of comfort that ifwe worry about all this, you know,
maybe the bad stuff won't happen.
Maybe there's some preemptive type thing.
But in reality, I think it's justamping up this feeling of anxiety
and, this uncomfortableness, whichis not all at all productive.
(19:39):
Hmm.
So that by the time we get onthe plane and it gets in the
air, we're just exhausted by it.
Yeah.
I'll just say Henry.
So I have, I have workedon my worry a lot.
I have come a long way.
I'm very proud of myself.
There is one worry I cannotshake and it's flying.
(20:01):
Oh, I
So
I shouldn't have picked that example.
It's a tough one.
It is a tough
one.
I hate, I don't, putting a bunchof land dwelling mammals in a
tin can, 40,000 feet in the skyrocketing at like 500 miles per hour.
I mean, it's insanity.
But you know, just thinking of shortbursts or a little bit of the worry.
I... so, one of my strategies toactually be able to fly, I don't know
(20:29):
if this is true, but I've heard thatif the plane is gonna crash, it's gonna
crash mo most likely within the firstfive minutes or the last five minutes.
Oh, well, you got a couple hoursin between where you can just
relax then.
I chill out.
Don't talk to me.
The first five of the last five, I amin deep breath work like strategies.
(20:51):
But
that, that kinda works.
Yeah,
It's uh, compressing it intoa small time period, which is
like not a bad strategy, aimee.
I thank you because I'm going with it.
I worry for the first five minutesand then I worry at the last five
minutes, but yeah, it does help.
So I don't, I don't know if that's astrategy for anybody, but you know,
(21:12):
there are some worries that are moredifficult to shake than others and some
that maybe you don't need to worry about.
I don't fly enough.
Maybe because I hate flying, but I don'tfly enough to have it be such an issue.
All right.
I wanna get into I think, one moreworry reason why we worry, that
hopefully we bring more awareness toit, we can reduce it and it has to do
(21:33):
with past experiences and modeling.
So with past experiences like my monkeybars, I still get a little short of
breath, as I said, when I see kidson monkey bars, 'cause I feel like
they're gonna fall land on their backs.
So that's a past experience thatgives me a little bit of worry,
which is completely logical, couldbe helpful as well as a safety tool.
(21:57):
but if you had something that reallyshook your system or something that
begins to really impact your dailylife in a negative way, then worry can
start to make your world pretty small.
And then here's where a generalizedanxiety disorder I think really comes in.
I referenced that with APA definition.
And this is where therapy can reallycome in and do some powerful work.
(22:21):
Different types of exposure therapy,DBT, CBT, there are lots of avenues to
develop some skills to not let thoseworries be in charge of your world.
And it doesn't have to stem from a pastexperience either to warrant therapy here.
I should note that even if you'reworried, doesn't have a clear line
to anything, these strategies, thesemodalities can be super helpful.
(22:45):
And then with modeling, it can be veryhelpful to take a compassionate glance
back into your childhood and see if therewas a worrier in your immediate circle.
Was there an adult who modeled worryas a way of handling a problem?
Or just met a volatility, sort ofworked in the world as a worrier?
(23:10):
If so, you have probably adoptedsome of those strategies.
That's just how it works.
And as we've said today,they are not permanent.
There is, there are many skillsthat you can build to reduce that.
Hmm.
This might be a good time just torevisit the concept of neuroplasticity.
(23:32):
And
Oh yeah.
how we are creating or undoingthe pathways in the brain.
I like the metaphor of creatingwalking paths in a grassy meadow
to talk about neuroplasticity.
So if a pathway has been created, let'ssay, either because of a traumatic
event or the modeling of a parent.
(23:55):
If we have walked that path enoughtimes, then we have created a real path.
It's so obviously a path that ifsomebody else who's never been here
comes to this meadow, they're probablygoing to take that same path, right?
Because it looks like a path.
And I think that's how theseworries tend to get generalized.
(24:18):
Something might come along that vaguely.
Reminds you of that big thing fromyour past, and sure enough, it
goes down that same old pathwayand strengthens it further.
And even if the event is completelyunrelated, you can still go and go
down that same well worn path of worry.
(24:40):
And I think this is happening to mostof us at a completely unconscious level.
I mean much of the time and we reallydon't want to keep walking these fear
pathways 'cause we are reinforcingthem and letting them get more
generalized then to other things.
That's why I think it's so important tobe doing some inner work like we do in the
(25:04):
Joy Lab program, to be able to see whatis happening inside of us in real time.
Because that gives us a chance tostep back and ask ourselves, do I
really want to go down this pathway?
And if the answer is no, it is possibleto make a different choice in that moment.
(25:27):
Yeah, we can make a different choice.
I think that's the biggest lesson here.
Worrying can seem so overwhelmingand out of our control, but
we can change these paths.
We, we really can I get on an airplane?
I don't like it, but I get on it.
We can do that in amillion different ways.
So
I wanna just like maybe touch a moment,
(25:48):
this is making me think a bit on maybe alast reason why we worry is that it has to
do with having too high of expectations.
And I don't wanna diginto this a whole lot.
Actually, you know what, I think I'mjust gonna put a pin on it for now.
I'll, I'll put a link into the shownotes for an episode on imposter
(26:11):
phenomenon that we got into alittle bit that talks about this.
But we're gonna talk about highexpectations and, and how that
can uh, show up in our world inways that can be kind of harmful.
We're gonna talk a lot aboutthat in the next couple months
in, our next batch of Elements.
So I'm gonna save that for, forthose episodes, but certainly that
(26:34):
can be ignition for for worry.
So head to the show notes forsome episodes if you wanna
follow up on that right now.
But I hope just in this conversationyou've got maybe a bit of a handle more on
why we might worry, why you might worry.
I hope you've felt some, someinsight there, some self-compassion
to approach your worry in alittle bit of a different way.
(26:57):
Understanding that we've got some wiringthat primes us to do this, sometimes it
can go too far, and we can change that.
So, make sure you join us fornext episode, we'll talk about
some more quick, fast actingstrategies to stop a worry cycle.
In the meantime, I'm goingto leave us with a little bit
of wisdom from Pema Chödrön.
(27:19):
Here it is.
"Everything that occurs is notonly usable and workable, but
is actually the path itself.
We can use everything that happensto us as the means for waking up.
We can use everything that occurs,whether it's our conflicting emotions
and thoughts or our seemingly outersituation to show us where we are asleep
(27:43):
and how we can wake up completely,utterly without reservations."
Thank you for listeningto the Joy Lab podcast.
If you enjoy today's show, visitJoyLab.coach to learn more
about the full Joy Lab program.
Be sure to rate and review us whereveryou listen to your favorite podcasts.
Please remember that thiscontent is for informational
(28:06):
and educational purposes only.
It is not intended to provide medicaladvice and is not a replacement for advice
and treatment from a medical professional.
Please consult your doctor orother qualified health professional
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