October 3, 2023 • 58 mins
Have you ever felt like you were destined to fail? Or that things ‘almost’ happen for you in life but somehow things always fall short?
In Erwin McManus’s new book “Mind Shift’ he explores what it takes to break the cycle and become the genius you were designed to be.
In today’s conversation we sit down with Erwin and take a look at simple shifts you can make to find the change you desire and the ability to make your ideas into reality.
About Erwin Raphael McManus
Erwin Raphael McManus is an iconoclast, artist, and cultural thought leader known for his integration of creativity and spirituality. He is the founder of MOSAIC, a church movement started in the heart of Hollywood with campuses across Los Angeles, Orange County, Mexico City and Seattle, and a global community that spans the across the world. Erwin is the acclaimed author of “The Last Arrow,” “The Artisan Soul,” “Soul Cravings,” and “The Barbarian Way.” His books have sold more than a million copies worldwide. He lives in Los Angeles, California, with his wife, Kim McManus.
Links
Website
Facebook
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In Erwin McManus’s new book “Mind Shift’ he explores what it takes to break the cycle and become the genius you were designed to be.
In today’s conversation we sit down with Erwin and take a look at simple shifts you can make to find the change you desire and the ability to make your ideas into reality.
About Erwin Raphael McManus
Erwin Raphael McManus is an iconoclast, artist, and cultural thought leader known for his integration of creativity and spirituality. He is the founder of MOSAIC, a church movement started in the heart of Hollywood with campuses across Los Angeles, Orange County, Mexico City and Seattle, and a global community that spans the across the world. Erwin is the acclaimed author of “The Last Arrow,” “The Artisan Soul,” “Soul Cravings,” and “The Barbarian Way.” His books have sold more than a million copies worldwide. He lives in Los Angeles, California, with his wife, Kim McManus.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is episode three hundred and ninetyfour of Jumble Think Teams ten, nine,
eight, seven, sick five orthree two one. Welcome to Jumble
(00:21):
Think, where we talk to dreamers, makers, innovators, and influencers all
about their journey of turning dreams andideas into reality. Along the way,
we're going to share some tips onhow you can turn your own dreams and
ideas into reality. Two. Ourguest on today's show is Irwin McManus.
More about Irwin in a moment.Whether you're a longtime listener or a new
subscriber, make sure you go andsubscribe to the show wherever you listen to
(00:44):
the podcasts. Hey, thanks againfor subscribing to the show and listening.
Now let's join today's conversation. Heythere, friends, welcome to Jumble Think.
(01:07):
My name's Michael Woodward. I amyour host. We have an absolutely
wonderful episode lined up for you today. But before we dive into that,
I just want to give you alittle taste of what's coming in this new
season of Jumble Thing. First off, if you aren't watching this, if
you're listening, you can now gosee all of our episodes and video format
over at YouTube. We'll put thatlink in the episode notes so you can
(01:30):
check that out. You're not gonnawant to miss this episode in video form,
and we're gonna be releasing all ofour future episodes as videos, so
you can not only listen to itif you want to, but you can
also go watch it if you preferto do that. I'd also encourage you,
if you're new to the Jumble Thinkpodcast, go ahead and subscribe to
our show wherever you listen to podcasts. We've got some great things lined up
(01:53):
for you in the weeks to come, and I don't want you to miss
a thing, so go subscribe tothe show now. On the show today,
our guest is Irwin McManus, andIrwin is no stranger to the Jumble
Thing podcast. It's hard to believeback, but back in February of twenty
nineteen and episode two hundred and thirteen, he was one of our guests and
(02:13):
we had a fascinating conversation about abook he had released at that time.
If you like the conversation today,or you want to hear more from Irwin,
make sure to go back and listento that episode. Irwin is an
author, he's a pastor, heworks in the world world of business.
He is launching a mastermind. Hehas a new book out called mind Shift,
(02:34):
and it's all about how we canhave genius thinking and how we can
rewire our thinking in our lives.And they're also launching a really cool program
called The Arena. So before wedive in, if you want to check
out those things while you're listening,head on over to Irwin McManus dot com.
That link will be in the episodenotes and you can take a look
at what's happening there. So let'swaste no more time. Let's go ahead
(02:58):
and join today's conversation with our friend, Erwin McManus. Irwin, it's always
great to have you on the JumbleThing podcast. Thanks so much for joining
us. Oh Man, so goodto be with you. Well, we
had you on a couple of yearsago, and a lot's change COVID's happened.
The world around us has shifted,and it sounds like you have been
(03:19):
going through a shift too. Listeningto your podcast and then checking out the
new book, there's been some changesin your world, So give us a
little update on some things that arehappening with you and the shift towards this
new direction. Well, you know, when we're recording this, I'm just
a couple of days from twenty sixtyfive. So I'm in a pretty big
shift in life. Anyway, oneof my friends last night, I was
(03:43):
going, so, are you goingto retire? What's going on? You
know, And I said, no, no, no, I think I'm
just I feel like I'm starting fromscratch in a really wonderful way. Yeah.
You know, during the pandemic,I think a lot of people's life
shifted, and and and I thinkeven those needs shifted and in a lot
of the topography of the way peopleare engaging the world around them. And
(04:08):
I've always worked in the private sector. I've always worked in the business world,
i always worked in the educational world. But my public life is always
what I've done at Mosaic, youknow, founding Mosaic and leading this community
of faith here in la and andit's impact you know, in some small
(04:28):
way around the world, and andand but people didn't realize is that Mosaic
was you know, self funded.It was funded by me and my wife.
And so I always think it's funnywhen people talk about, you know,
pastors choosing to go into you know, this kind of work for the
money. I'm like, not inla not here here you you you you.
(04:54):
It's like a vow of poverty andh and then you have to decide
to be an entrepreneur outside of that. So I so just just by the
nature of what I chose to dowith my life, I had to work
outside of the church. Pastors work. Let me be very clear. Pastors
work, and they work hard,and it's definitely a full time job.
Plus I just never had that luxury. Yeah, I always had to have
(05:16):
a career outside of starting Mosaic,outside of pastoring, outside of what I
did in that space, but Inever wanted that that career to be my
public conversation. Yeah, but whathappened really coming up to the pandemic.
Well, if you kind of followmy life journey, I go in and
(05:38):
out of the public space. Yes, you know. I used to write
a lot of books in the faithspace and speak a lot around the world
in the faith space, and thenI disappeared for about five or six years,
and I started a fashion company anda film company, and had a
tech company, and and just stoppedspeaking around the world, stopped writing books,
(06:02):
and some of it is I alwaysI kind of love anonymity, and
I'm not a person who ever feltcomfortable with any level of fame or or
you know, that sense of celebrity, and so I would always just pull
into a different direction. And thenwhen my kids were adults, and my
(06:25):
son sent me a text one dayand basically challenged me to redirect myself into
the church again. Then at ahigh level, my daughter came to me
and basically said, you know,my generation needs you and we need your
voice. So my kids were intheir twenties at that time, were the
ones who really pulled me back intoa public ministry. Wow, And that's
(06:47):
really you know what I did forso many years with Mosaic, and then
the pandemic hit and and the realitywas that all the work that I did
outside of the church was kind ofgone. Actually in the in the world
of the church, you know,there were just no more like church conferences
or consulting with with groups and workingat a high level of thinking in that
(07:14):
space. But what really opened upto me pretty tremendously was the world of
entrepreneurs was sorry. I was invitedto begin to speak and mentor a lot
of people and in masterminds and Ididn't even know the mastermind world existed,
to be honest with you, Iwasn't paying attention to it. I wasn't
aware of it. You know,one of the business guys that I mentor
(07:38):
and invest in, he said,Hey, would you take thirty minutes and
talk to my friend ed my letAnd I had no idea who had my
let was. I didn't know.You know, he had millions of followers
and had grown a billion dollar companyor whatever it is. And and then
we became friends, and I endedup going on his podcast and we had
like six million downloads, and andand then and other business friends started contacting
(08:03):
me. And I didn't even knowhow deep and expansive my reach was in
that world, to be honest withyou, because I always kept it very
small, very quiet, very private, and it just kept growing and growing,
and especially during the pandemic. Frankly, entrepreneurs didn't stop during the pandemic.
Oh, they elevated. They theybasically decided, hey, you know,
(08:26):
the government can shut the world down, where we're going to take over
the markets. And and so Iended up in masses massive amount of work
and in engagements and speaking at theseevents and all of them seemingly either underground
or in Florida. And it realized, oh, you know, for those
(08:50):
of us who live our lives deeplyconnected to our faith and to Jesus,
you know, in our relationship tohim, I feel like God is so
clearly redirecting my life in a waywhere it wasn't something I was pursuing.
It wasn't you know, waking upon morning going I think I'm gonna do
this. It was waking up onmorning going, oh wow, my life
is radically changed. A whole newworld has opened up for me. And
(09:16):
and now I just need to havethe courage and the adaptability to respond to
this new opportunity. So next thing, I knew, I was making my
private work my public life, andyou know, going public that I've been
an entrepreneur for thirty years, andI you know, I think in the
(09:37):
business space, I mentor people whoare at the highest levels in their domain
of work, whether it's sports orfashion or music or business. And and
I actually I love it. AndI'm still doing Mosaic. So people said,
wait a minute. One of myyou know, business friends asked,
are you leaving Mosaic? And Isaid no, no, no, Now
(09:58):
I can give more to mosaic.That makes it very, very exciting to
me. And and and then myson, who Aaron, who is thirty
five, and he's still single,and and you know, he loves the
church and he's loves serving, buthe said, you know, being single,
I just don't think ministries right spacefor me at thirty five. I
(10:18):
really rather be in the business world. And so this gave us a chance
to work together and UH to doa lot of personal development and coaching and
strategic thinking and creating environments for peopleoutside of the faith. Yeah. And
and franklyin Michael and you you you'vebeen in you know, both sides of
of that, you know line,in the business world and in the church
(10:39):
world. I see I get toshare my faith with more people in the
business sector than you than most peopleever do in their entire lives and through
the church. And and I getto see so many people come to faith
who are millionaires and billionaires because ofthe rust and the relationship and the rapport
(11:03):
that we developed together. And theywouldn't respect me or trust me if they
didn't feel that, you know,I was at the top of the game,
you know. And they're very competitive. They only relate to who they
perceived to be the best of thebest, and there it's not a forgiving
environment. You know, I getthat for sure. It's a shark shark
(11:26):
world, and I have to bea really, really intelligent porpoise, and
I really do love it. It'sfunny because one day I was complaining,
you know, to my wife andsaying, oh my gosh, these guys,
these guys just keep calling me.I'm waking up at six in the
morning from attack from one of them, asking me about a business decision,
(11:48):
and I'm you know, I'm havingthe work here and there, and my
wife goes, and you love it, don't you? And I said,
I really do. It's just somuch fun. I like working with people
who have very very little margin oferror, right right, and go ahead.
Yeah, I was just gonna say, like, I so relate to
your story. I think that's partof the reasons why I have looked up
(12:11):
to you for so often. BecauseI started my adult life and ministry,
and then I ended up in themarketplace because of a recession, and the
church can afford to pay me.I kept doing ministry, but you know,
I had to kind of check outand go, hey, how do
I pay the bills while I dothis? You know? And and I
always was looking for that person whoI go, they get me. And
(12:33):
I've always felt as I've read thebook, like like your books, and
I start out with Barbarian Way andUnstoppable Force, and I have them right
back here on the right corner ofmy bookshelf of thank you so much and
so and I just relate to thatintertwining of the entrepreneurial spirit while being in
the pastoral place and realizing that maybethe world around us isn't as turned off
(13:01):
to the message of Jesus or intothe hope he gives, or even the
lessons that we can take as pastorsor entrepreneurs to walk people through both the
place of business but also the placeof life. And I love in the
book how you talk about there's onegentleman that you met and you're doing a
mastermind which book the Mind Shift book? Okay, well, don't want to
(13:26):
saying the book. Yeah, yougot an advanced copy of my next book
about October three. Yeah, veryexcited about it. I am. I
love this book. And I haveto say, after reading so many of
your books, this one feels alot different, and I just really love
it because you tell some great stories. You are a master storyteller, but
(13:46):
you also give some practical like,hey, you've got your mind wrong,
get it fixed. And so there'sa guy you meet at a conference or
not a conference, but a mastermindin which he's a high performer, really
wealth and on paper his business isgreat, things are going well, but
there's some things on the personal sidethat aren't right. And so there's so
(14:07):
much of what you're teaching in thisbook that applies both to the personal and
business. So for you, asyou lead, as you get into the
place where you're walking with these businesspeople, are you experiencing the same thing
I'm experiencing when it comes to likethere's a lot more openness to like really
doing life together at a deep levelthat goes beyond the business, and a
(14:28):
lot of business people are looking forthat. Yeah. Ironically, Michael,
what I find is that the businesssector is so much more open to the
culture and principles of faith than thechurches. A lot of times, I
mean too, I understand that becausea lot of times the church becomes a
(14:50):
conclict, like a place to hidefrom the world, right and it's driven
by safety and security and belief andstability. You don't really need a lot
of faith, no, if you'rechoosing safety and security and predictability and comfort.
But these guys they're whisking everything,They're on the edge every single day.
(15:11):
They're they're giving everything they got andit's it's heavy, there's a lot
of weight to it. So theykind of instinctively know they need faith even
when they don't believe in God,right, and so it's misplaced me.
You know, I have faith inmyself. You know, like there are
a million like business mantras to tryto give you faith in yourself, and
(15:33):
it kind of leaves you a littleempty after a while because you're like,
I can do it, I cando it, and these guys get so
exhausted, going I don't know ifI can. And then when you go,
oh, you're not created to doit by yourself, and they go,
oh yeah, that makes a hugedifference. And then their marriage is
of falling apart. And you know, they developed a lot of like economic
(15:58):
IQ, but they didn't develop alot of emotional like you. And and
then you go, okay, waita minute, you know you don't want
to die alone. I mean,the first mastermind I ever spoke during the
pandemic. I should up and allthese guys, you know, we have
multimillion dollar companies and and uh,and my opening line I think when I
got up there was I'm not goingto teach you how to get rich.
(16:19):
All of you are richer than me. I am going to teach you how
not to die alone. Yeah.And and there's just so much openness that
I think it's pretty shorter. Soit's it's openness to finding health. Yeah,
but it's also like openness to findingGod, yes, you know.
(16:40):
And so some of it's pragmatic,like my life's a masks, my marriage
is falling apart. I've waited toolong maybe. And I'm gonna say this,
and I know this is not gonnabe very popular, but most of
the guys that I've met going througha divorce are Christians. Yeah. So
true, It's true, you know. And I think it's because they thought,
hey, I can go build myfifty million dollars company, right,
(17:03):
and we have Jesus, so he'llkeep my marriage together. Yeah. Yeah,
And they don't pay attention to basicrelational principles, right, that very
essential to keep your relationship healthy andMichael, this is like the reason this
book feels differently is that this bookis actually how I think interesting sook when
(17:27):
you say that, like, thisis how I think unpack that a little
bit differently, because like I thinkthat, you know, we all think
that we know more about a personthrough the osmosis of seeing their posts online
or reading their books and that kindof thing. So, so like when
you're approaching a problem, and mindshift is really about approaching the problem of
(17:48):
ourselves often, So how when you'reproblem solving and you're saying, like,
I think more like this book thananything else I've written, what does that
mean? Like, that's how Ithink it's. Well, there's several things.
One is that anyone who's ever followedme in any way listen to any
conversations. I mean, you knowthat I hate superstitious thinking. Yeah.
(18:14):
Yeah, And I put every belief, every conviction, every thought through the
crucible of practicality of does it actuallywork in real life? Yeah. And
one of the frustrations for me wasmeeting so many people that I feel are
very sincere in their faith. Ithink they really do love Jesus and they
(18:38):
really do trust him. With theirlives, but they have terribly destructive mental
structures and they never change them becausethey think believing in Jesus is enough.
Yeah. Yeah. And and it'salmost like a crime or heresy to say
you don't just need Jesus, youneed to change the way you think,
(19:00):
right, right. And And whatwhat I found is part of the reason
I love I mean, I lovethe Scriptures. I love the Bible.
Yeah, And I don't love itfor the same reason I think a lot
of times Christians love it, Okay, And I think a lot of times
like Christians love it because they cango to doctrines that give them comfort.
(19:21):
Yeah. I love the scriptures becauseit teaches me how to be fully human
and how to be fully alive.Yeah. And I extract out of the
Bible how to think and in away where life works. Yea. And
but what I did with my shiftis I extracted it in the way I
(19:41):
speak to people in the business world, you know. And so I'm not
assuming they believe the Bible. I'mnot assuming they believe in God. I'm
not assuming they believe in Jesus.I am assuming they need help. Yeah,
And they're trying to figure out howto figure out life. Yeah,
and you know, so later inthe chapters, I actually mentioned Jesus.
Yes. And in fact, mydaughter, who, like my daughter is
(20:03):
like the the you know, thepinnacle of faith. Like my daughter is
like a Jesus person just through andthrough oozes her faith. And she said,
Hey, Dad, you know you'rewriting a social psychology book. You
need to like prepare your audience.You need to help them transition with you,
or they're going to be really confused. Yeah, and you know,
(20:26):
and so I've never dedicated I've neverdedicated a book to Jesus because my life
is dedicated to Jesus. But thisbook, if you looked at the dedication,
is actually dedicated to Jesus. Idid notice that. Yeah, And
the reason I dedicated it to Jesusis I want people to know just because
it's a social psychology book doesn't meanthat I shifted the epicenter of my life.
(20:51):
Like my life is still all aboutJesus. But what I am going
to do is I'm going to translatewhat I've learned from the wisdom of with
Him about real life in a waythat anyone who can access it. And
I'm convinced it works backwards. Youhelp a person makes sense of their life
and they become open to faith.Yeah, I want to pause there for
a second, come back to this, but you mentioned Mariah, who's your
(21:15):
daughter, and uh, you're adad. I'm a dad. I have
two daughters ten and six. Youyou are much at a different a different
phase of being a father. Butjust as a person who has watched your
podcast and also seeing the worship that'scoming out of Mosaic, Mariah brings a
(21:37):
special and unique voice for this timeand for this generation. And I just
love when you guys release an albumor something because there is a freshness and
newness to that and and she isspecifically designed for the season, as is
Aaron. And just the conversations youboth have and so father to father,
h you know, the fruit isthere that you have been faithful and and
(22:00):
done like so much just to raisethem up the right way. And it's
an encouragement to dads like me whoare are doing it now, going like
it's possible to raise up our childrenand be okay and make it through.
So you know, we we hadtough water, you know, rough waters
and tough moments and and it's oneof the things I really tried to focus
(22:23):
on is that I don't need themto be a certain person for me,
right. That's so powerful. AndI think a lot of parents they try
to parent their kids based on theirown self image. Yeah, And my
kids don't need to live for mylegacy, They don't need to live from
(22:44):
my reputation. They just need tolive for theirs. Yea. And they
need to be true to themselves andgo through whatever struggles or searches they need
to go through. And I'm alwaystheir dad, I'm always their fan,
I'm always for them. And it'syou know, it's the reason Kim and
I we've been married forty years,you know, and our kids live.
(23:10):
Mariah lives probably four minutes from us, and Aaron probably lives eight minutes from
us. And they bought houses withindriving or walking distance of our house because
they wanted to be near us.And I think the best proof of parenting
is if your kids want to beyour friends when they become adults. Yeah,
that's our goal. And our kidskeep saying they want to live by
(23:30):
us. Once there, they saidthey don't want to move out. We
told them that's not an option thatwe're gonna go one of the things I
love in the book that you mentioned. I just I'm gonna quote this because
I think it's a powerful statement.You said. It may sound fair,
but it doesn't matter. If it'snot your fault, it's still your responsibility.
(23:52):
No one but you is accountable foryour life. And one of the
other things that you say early onin the book, just in the forward
and the author's notes, is thisconcept of near life or almost living or
near death and almost dying. AndI think the two go together really strongly.
There are so many of us thatare coming out of COVID or coming
(24:15):
out of like so much is changingin our society that we've kind of checked
out in this season, and that'sone of as a pastor now it's one
of the things with our people thatI'm constantly speaking to, like you're alive,
go live, And so I justwant to unpack that with you for
a second, like like that's amindset shift on like truly engaging with the
(24:37):
life, the dreams, that ideas, the calling, the purpose, all
of those aspects of life. Andso for you as you face that struggle
with people at Mosaic or people inthe business space, and that limiting belief
of fear or even blame on others. How do we process that better?
How do we lead people to thatplace of like breakthrough in that. That's
(25:00):
a huge motive behind my book,to be honest with you, is that
I feel like we're living in atime, at least in our society,
our culture, where we've been giventhe curse of blame. We are blaming
(25:21):
everyone and everything else for the deficitsin our lives. Yeah, and you
know, and I'm an immigrant frommos Salvador. Spanish was my first language.
I never knew my real father.My grandparents raised me for the first
couple of years of my life.You know, I actually experienced racism.
I was. My salary was cutonce they realized I was an immigrant when
(25:45):
I went to work for a prisionalorganization. Yeah, I mean I got
out of my car one time whendriving home in high school because the neighbors
shouted an ethnic slur at me andwanted me to, you know, to
get out of the neighborhood. Andso I understand all these things. And
(26:07):
when I was in college, though, I was offered a scholarship for being
an ethnic minority, for being aLatin Hispanic, and I turned it down.
And I was poor. I meanI was I paid my way through
college. I had no one helpedme. I was on my own.
And when they offered me a scholarship, you know, thousands of dollars,
(26:29):
and I turned it down because Isaid, it don't feel it's right to
be given a scholarship because of thecolor of my skin or because of my
ethnicity, because I happened to bean immigrant from O Salvador. Yeah,
and give me a scholarship if I'msmart enough, or if I have a
skill or talent that has value,but not just because of the you know,
the chance of my birth. SoI've always had this mindset, and
(26:52):
I think my grandparents really gave itto me. They they they told me
no one is to blame for yourfailure and no one is responsible for your
success. Yeah, yea. Andthroughout the mind shift, each chapter really
moves us toward a small, granularshift that will radically alter our lives.
(27:12):
And you know, when you hearthe language, even in our culture day,
of things like white privilege, andyou know, Michael, it's got
to be so hard to be awhite man right now, Like you're just
like the devil, you know,and or we or the whole language of
you know, rich people people withwalth are evil and every or the government
(27:33):
is you know evil, or there'ssystemic racism in every institution. The language
is actually a language of passivity thatsays someone else is to blame for my
lack of accomplishment. Yeah. Yeah, And I'm like you see, the
way I was raised was even ifall those things are true, they still
can't stop you, right, ifyou refuse to be stopped. Right.
(27:56):
And so for me, my shiftis really the world is unfair, Like
the world is unjust. There isn'tequality, there is racism, there is
stuff. Yeah, that's that's actuallythe real world. Yeah, and so
what are you gonna do now?Yeah, if you take responsibility, no
(28:18):
one has power over you. Yeah, absolutely. And I remember for me,
I grew up, we were toldthat you're going to succeed, that
was the requirement. And uh,they didn't care where you succeeded. They
just said what are you? Whereare you going? And I was at
a young age, I struggled inkindergarten, first grade, and I remember
for me personally getting put in theclass with the bad kids because I didn't
(28:41):
learn the same way, and Iwas told, well, you you're just
a bad kid. So I wasthere and my parents really advocated for me,
and and it was it was reallyamazing to see that that fruit.
And they said, well, actually, it has to do with the fact
that you're teaching him in a waythat he doesn't learn. And so they
adjusted in the school. And Iremember I graduated high school and I had
(29:02):
gotten to excelled classes and graduated reallywell. And I remember going to college
and my mom saying, hey,remember you have that learning disability. You
can use that to your advantage,whether it's in test taking and stuff like
that. And I just went,that's not my identity. I'm not going
to accept that. I'm not goingto take that in. That's not who
I am. And so I nevermentioned that to the college that I went
(29:26):
to. I never and it waslike, I'm going to work a little
bit harder, I'm going to haveto adjust. But I've been given the
tools and the resources to say,you know, this is on me,
this isn't on anyone else. AndI think I agree with you so much
that this is a struggle that like, we aren't all victims and I think
that they're in that that question ofinclusion and diversity. Like, as we
(29:48):
try to make everything where everyone getsexactly the same thing, we dilute the
value of the beauty of that individual. We dilute the value of like the
uniqueness and the p were and tostrengthen them by making everyone average. And
you even talk about that, yousay about the average in most things,
but excellent in some Yeah. Oneof my favorite chapters is a chapter that
(30:10):
deals with the mind shift of youare your own ceiling. Yes, Yeah,
And when you begin to recognize thefact that regardless of how much opposition
you have, regardless of how manyobstacles you have to face, that in
the end, you are your ownceiling. Yeah. And we have the
great advantage, especially in this nationand most of the world, where there's
(30:36):
at least some monicum of freedom,you can create the life that you desire.
Now. I understand there are placesin the world where opportunities are rare
and people are struggling to survive,but you cannot use that as an excuse
for you. Yeah. And infact, what I find is when I
(30:56):
travel the world, because my wifeworks in Malawi quite a bit. We
built the school, they were buildinghouses there. Most of those people who
have so little, they see themselvesas having so much opportunity, and they
seem those as being resplendent with possibilities. And and I just if a lot
(31:18):
of us had their sense of optimismand determination, we'd be blowing the ceiling
off of our lives. Yeah,I still agree with that, and I'm
constantly talking to my team just aboutlike, where are you pushing yourself?
Where are you uncomfortable? Push intobeing uncomfortable. I'm going to ask a
question for my own benefit for asecond, but I think it's going to
(31:41):
apply to many other people. Probablyall of our listeners really identify with this.
You are super busy, you aredoing a lot. You're I was
just watching you on GLS like acouple of weeks ago, and then you're
in South America, and then you'rein Mexico, and then you're in LA
and then you're working on this projectwith Fashion and you're doing that and I
(32:01):
wrote it down. You you're doingMosaic, You're leading that, you are
writing constantly. You're just launched thearena, which is pretty phenomenal. We
need to talk about that in asecond. Fashion the podcast, coaching and
consulting over a half dozen businesses.You're doing Masterminds. There's even things that
(32:22):
are on the horizon that I haven'tbeen announced. And I get it,
like like I'm in school right now, I'm pastoring a campus. I'm I'm
running my business still at a highlevel doing the podcast, and I relate
to that. But I often struggle, like with that sense of bounce in
like what I'm doing and just likelike I'm always going, never stopping,
(32:44):
never resting, never in that place. How do you navigate that? Because
you address that a little bit inthe book too. Yeah. Well,
I love my daughter's advice. Shejust keeps saying to me, Dad,
make remember only do the things youcare about, just doing things you want
to do. Yeah, And likeyou know, she she knows me.
And I do a lot of thingsout of obligation. I do a lot
of things because other people need meto. And you know, she's sort
(33:07):
of like my watchdog of going,you know, make sure that it's what
you you feel you're supposed to know. Yeah, and I think that I
have one People do not have thesame amount of energy, and I had
to accept that years ago. Ihave the psychological assessments I use, and
I can actually measure how much physicalenergy a person has and social energy,
(33:29):
emotional energy, and my like physicalenergy is in the top like one percentile.
And so I had to realize earlyon that people look really lazy to
me, and in a lot waytoo. I'm sorry, I do,
you know. And I just hadto accept the fact that most people don't
(33:51):
have the same amount of energy,and I shouldn't measure them based on how
much energy I have. But I'mresponsible for how much energy I have.
I feel like that's something that's likea God given gift. And and so
for me to to do last someonewho has less energy is really for me,
it would be unethical. And andthen I have a lot of things
(34:14):
that are either fascinating to me I'mpassionate about or I feel that they won't
happen unless I do them. Yeah, And that's always been sort of my
prayers, you know, God,let me do the things that no one
either no one can do or noone will do. Yeah. Yeah,
And that's how I've kind of craftedmy life. I started Mosaic in Hollywood
(34:37):
because it was it was two things. It was something that no one seemed
to want to do, and andand something it seemed like no one could
do. And so I took thison because it was the hardest place probably
in America to create a community offaith that was open about Jesus and believe
the scriptures, and one of themost you know, liberal, you know,
(35:01):
epicenters in the world. And soI chose that very specifically, it
would be much easier to do somethingelse and to do the same thing somewhere
else. Yeah, and and soit's the same way with like the arena.
You know, I'm working one onone with people and working with a
mastermind, two masterminds, and oractually more than that. But I began
(35:22):
to realize that, you know,when I coach at the highest level,
it's it's a six figure relationship,and you know, very few people can
afford that. But it's a highlyintensive, low margin of error relationship.
And and then the mastermind that Ilead, it's it's it's expensive. It's
like thirty thousand a year, andso it it and it and it only
(35:45):
it allows a certain kind of personto be in that room with their peers
and and they're able to then bemore open and to be more vulnerable and
to have a higher learning posture becausethey're just dealing with different issues that other
people are not. And and soI thought, Okay, there's no one
in the world doing a mastermind that'sonline, that's actually dynamic, that's more
(36:10):
affordable, and and so we feltlike the arena was like blue ocean it
yeah, yeah, you know,it doesn't exist, and not many people
could create it. Yeah, youknow, because I kind of like,
I live in all those sectors.I live in the world of business,
and I live the world of faith, and I work in the world of
(36:30):
personal development and character development and alsostrategic thinking. And so I'm able to
create a different kind of world withthe arena. And and then you know,
someone asked me, well, it'sstill pretty expensive, because like four
thousand a year, so it's fairlyexpensive. And I said, and someone
said, what about us who arejust starting? And I go, the
arena isn't for you. It's likeyou wouldn't take a master's degree and put
(36:50):
it in fifth grade. Yeah,you know, and you want you want
to create a space for people whoare dealing with really serious growth, leadership,
communication issues and they need they wantto become and need to become the
best of the best. So theway I factored things are, is it
something I love. I love designingclothes. I know it's not gonna change
(37:13):
the world, not gonna make theworld, you know, dramatically better.
But when I started designing clothes,I did it because I felt like fashion
was making our boys effeminate and uhand and there wasn't really a lot of
brands that pushed the masculinity as apositive virtue. And so when I started
my first brand, my theme washeroism as a style. And so I
(37:37):
understand that fashion translates values and expandsculture. So I wanted to have a
small fingerprint and fashion that actually said, hey, I want to create really
cool, cutting edge clothes for men, that says, hey, I'm edgy,
but I'm I'm a man, I'mmasculine, And so yeah, that
was actually my intention. So there'salways a subtle intention behind every thing I
(38:00):
do, and that's how I chooseit. And I have enough energy because
I love it. Yeah. Yeah, And you know one of the things
you talk about in the book thatI think dovetails with this so well,
that I think is a really importantpart is like you mentioned about the elements
of obligation for your job, forthe things that you do. That there
is an element that there are thingsthat you simply probably wouldn't choose to do,
(38:22):
but the role requires it. Andyou talk about bitterness as a poison,
and I know I struggle with thatas a leader often, where you
know, I try really hard tokeep that optimism that you talk about,
that right perspective, but like it'sreally easy to get where you find that
little seed of something that bothers youor something that you feel like it's really
(38:46):
not my job, it's not myresponsibility, it's someone else should be doing
this. And it's so easy tohave that switch between like like the joy
factor and like the what in theworld am I doing here, you know
a place, So like talk tous a little bit about that and how
to navigate keeping our heart in ourmind right in that. Yeah, you
know, there are things I strugglewith, but bitterness isn't one of them,
(39:10):
Okay. And in fact, Iwas just working with this company and
they missed our appointment I think threetimes. Wow. CEO reakes out to
me was super apologetic, and Ithink it was really worried, and I
said, I just texted back,don't worry, it's virtually impossible to offend
me, and he said, thankyou so much. And I just years
(39:32):
ago realized one, when you're offended, it's it's it's at least a small
indicator of arrogance of pride, becauseyou feel like people treated you beneath your
value or your stature. Wow.And uh. And so I just always
told myself, try to choose likea path of humility where it's impossible to
(39:53):
offend you. Yeah, and Iget. And then and then also sometimes
bitterness is because you assumed ill intentor bad motives from the other person.
And because if you assume the bestmotive, you wouldn't be bitter, you
wouldn't be offended. And so whenthey didn't make the meetings three times,
A thought, wow, really importantthings must have come up. Yeah,
(40:15):
you know, Wow, for themto miss three meetings, they must be
overwhelmed and swamped. And so Ijust try to never impose negative motive on
another human being. You have toyou have to convince me that you're trying
to offend me. And then Ithink the third thing for me is that
(40:35):
I know that whatever I become embitteredtowards I become like, yeah, wow,
So bitterness binds you to the negativebehavior of the person that offended you,
and you will become like them,because that's what bitterness does. It
binds you to that that emotional frequency. And and I just like, I
(40:57):
just go, I don't want tobecome that, and so I just refused
to have that life one of thethings. And my kids will verify this,
and so hold my wife. Butthe odd thing is that if you
really really profoundly like hurt me,like you know, because I I've had
betrayal, Yeah, you know,that's some pretty significant deep wounds in my
(41:19):
life, I so let it gothat I forget the person. And because
I have a neurological issue anyway,I don't have chronological memory the way other
people do. And I remember onetime I was in an airport in Europe
somewhere and this guy comes up tome who really died something horrific and the
years before and he and he cameup and he was super apologetic and was
(41:45):
like asking for forgiveness, and Isaid, hey, I'm so sorry,
could you tell me your name?And uh, and he told me his
name. I remembered him, andI'm like how can I forget him like
he was in my home? Likebut like I just I just let go
of bitterness and then I forget likethat negative memory. I have people ten
(42:05):
fifteen years later email me or sendme a note going, please forgive me
for what I did, you know, ten years ago, and I don't
remember what they did. And I'llusually text them back and I'll go,
I can't remember what you did,right, but you need to forgive yourself
because I forgave you ten years ago, you know. And I'll say,
(42:28):
I'm so sad that you've carried thatemotion for so long. If you had
just asked for forgiveness right away,you would have been free. I've been
free all these years. And whenyou're bitter, you're not free. Yeah,
and you know. Yeah, SoI just try and encourage people.
Look, you know, if youoffend someone, ask for forgiveness fast and
mean it so that you can befree. And if someone offends you,
(42:52):
like, let it go as fastas you can so you can be free
of it. Yeah. I thinkbitterness is a poison and it'll it'll destroy
you. It's a liar. Bitternessfeels like power, and that's why people
choose it. Yeah, bitterness makesyou feel powerful, and forgiveness makes you
feel vulnerable, and we do notlike the feeling of vulnerability that we could
(43:12):
be hurt again. Yeah, Andso then we become hardened through bitterness,
and we feel that we are nowimpossible to hurt. But what it also
does, you may become impossible tohurt, you're also impossible to experience love
and forgiveness and joy and in yourfull humanity. Wow, so powerful and
something I can take to heart personallyand areas of my life because I think
(43:37):
you know, when you care deeplybe by people, it's easy to be
hurt deeply. And I'm sure you'veencountered that where you've so believed in someone
and just been disappointed by the outcome. And I think one area in our
culture right now where we're struggling withis leadership as a whole. I think
(43:58):
of how many pastors, how manyfamous people that doesn't matter at all levels.
There are so many people failing.And I remember I remember you announcing
on Instagram, Hey, I havesomething to share with everyone, and I
remember seeing that going, well,if it's that important, I need to
hear what everyone has to say.I remember watching it, and and you
(44:21):
know that there's that whole side ofdread where it's like, uh, did
another leader fail? And I rememberwatching and seeing you get into it and
you go, I'm not okay.I have cancer and I'm dealing with that.
And it was so sad for meto feel like relief on that that,
like, here's somebody that in leadershipI look up to and I have
(44:42):
a high respect for. And Iwas set up for disappointment because I have
seen so many people in leadership fail. And as a leader who leads in
many aspects of life, how doyou keep that place of purity, of
consistency, of that place of stayingon vision and on point and not distracted?
Because I think we have a focusissue that often pulls us away from
(45:06):
our vision or our purpose as wewalk through life. Well, I think
that a part of the problem isour culture. I mean the fact,
Michael, if I could just bestraight up, like the fact that you
were relieved that I had cancer soit might I might die, it was
actually more relieving than if I'd hadan affair so I might not meet your
(45:27):
standards? Right? Is a partof the problem with Christianity, Yeah,
is that we need leaders to beso exceptional that they lie to us their
whole lives. Yeah. And anda huge part of it is and I've
grapped a lot of leaders psychologically,and you know, my background is in
that world as a social psychologist.And most megachurch pastors are like CEOs of
(45:57):
fortune five hundred companies or founders ofthose companies. And they're all basically narcissists.
Yeah. And I don't mean thatin a condescending or condemning way.
I mean they have the psychological structuresof a narcissistic personality. Yeah. And
then when we go, yeah,we knew there were narcissists. No,
what we need to realize is that'swho Christians are drawn to. You see
(46:22):
said we go, yeah, weblame him because he's a narcissist, and
I'm going no, There's a reasontwenty thousand people are in that building is
that they're drawn towards a narcissistic personalitystructure. And so my bigger concern hasn't
been why do pastors keep messing up? My question is why is Christianity so
drawn to that kind of personality andthat style of leadership? Because it would
(46:43):
only be successful and effective if that'swhat we want. Yeah. And I
remember years ago I met with oneof I guess you was Oprah's main producer,
and we're looking at doing a TVshow and she said to me,
look, to succeed in television,you either need to be flamboyant or authentic.
And she goes, and your problemis that you're authentic but not flamboyant
(47:06):
at all. And flamboyant has abetter chance of succeeding. Yeah. Yeah.
And I remember and she was nota Christian, and I remember asking
her, I said, do youthink that's why Christian television is so flamboyant?
And she goes, That's exactly whyChristian television. And you know,
there's a reason. I mean,I've been offered for years and years and
(47:28):
years, you know, to beon Christian television. But when you look
at the culture of Christian communicators acrossthe board, they're flamboyant yea. And
the frequency of Christian communication is inauthentic. Yeah. I know it's not popular
for me to say that, butI'm just gonna say it. And and
the level of inauthenticity that American Christianityis drawn to is terrifying. Yeah.
(47:55):
Yeah, and so I think thereason there's so much moral collapse among leaders
is that there's no room for themto be authentic when they're eighteen years old
or twenty five years old. Yeah, they have to fake it to be
promoted. And then we promote theirtalent, and we don't really care about
(48:16):
their character. We care about theirreputation. Yeah, there's a difference.
Yeah. And then when their reputationfalls, we think it's that their character
fell, but it's not. Theircharacter was always like that, yeah yeah,
and but now that yeah, andso we have to realize we love
(48:37):
that guy yesterday, Yeah, beforewe knew that. So we need to
realize we're actually drawn to a frequencyof inauthenticity that is incredibly unhealthy. Yeah,
yeah, and you know, andyeah, so I did announce I
had cancer, and I've been marriedforty years and I've never had an affair,
(49:00):
and you know, and my life, you know, in terms of
like those things, is I've beena pretty boring person. You know,
I'm not a person who drinks orsmokes or does drugs or you know,
I'm not tatted up. You know, even though I have no problems with
tattoos and stuff, I've no problemwith people who drink. I've no problem
(49:20):
like, but it isn't mean yeahand uh. You know, but before
I was a Christian, I wasa moral person. And so I look
at it and go, it's noteven your faith. It's not my faith
that kept me moral. It's thatI love my wife more than I love
myself, and I love my kidsmore than I love me. And when
you love someone else more than youlove yourself, you make decisions based on
(49:44):
their best good, not just onyour own your own best good or your
own personal pleasure. You know,I married a girl who was an orphan,
who never heard I love you fromthe age of eight to eighteen and
living in a foster home. AndI considered a privilege to love her and
I and for me like to beunfaithful to her would be such a devastating
(50:05):
statement to her that she wasn't worthyof love. I I just couldn't do
that. And you know, myson, I wanted him to know that
a man can be faithful, andhe would never believe that if I was
unfaithful. I wanted my daughter tobe able to believe that a man would
be faithful to her. And andI know I'm going more intimately in this.
But like for me, it isn'tabout my reputation and Christianity, and
(50:32):
it isn't about you know, lettingpeople down. As a pastor, it's
very personal for me. It's it'sabout Kim and Aaron and Mariah, you
know, and and yeah, Icarry the weight of it as a pastor,
I really do. But I carrythe weight of the fact that you
(50:52):
can't ever live a good enough lifefor people like you know, I mean,
I know I've been called heretic.I've had Christians set of websites where
they're gonna kill me, you know, I mean, I've been through all
of that. I've had people putthings online that where it's completely untrue.
If you live your life or theperception of others, you're just dead.
(51:15):
Yeah, you know, you haveto live your life or the people who
are closest to you, and ifyou can look at them and know that
you've been trustworthy, and if theycan look at you and respect and love
you and trust you, I feellike, you know, at the end
of the day, you're gonna beokay. Yeah. So, as we
(51:36):
kind of move towards the end ofthis conversation, there's a lot of great
stuff that's happening. I love mindShift. The book has a lot of
powerful insights, and I think it'sa great start for people who are reshaping
how they think about themselves and howthey perceive the world. But then you
also have Arena, which is aphenomenal program. I've been praying and thinking
(51:57):
about is this the right mastermind.I was a part of Masterminds for years
and years. Love them and they'veimpacted my life, and you've impacted in
my life in so many ways,and so I'm excited about what you're doing
there. How can people connect withthese things? How can they find out
more and get involved? I thinkthe easiest thing is to go to my
website, to Irwin mcmannus dot com, and or go to my Instagram account
(52:19):
and there's usually a link there forthe Arena or the different things we're doing
for the book Mindshift. Yeah.I think that the Arena is a great
place if someone is to be apart of a futuristic learning community. The
best way I could described is it'sthe university for entrepreneurs. You know,
when you go to school, youlook back and you realize the ninety percent
of what you learned in school wascompletely irrelevant to success or failure in your
(52:44):
life. Yeah. Yeah, Andand what we have to do is create
an entirely new paradigm for education.And the Arena is where adults to me
are going to learn in the future. And we're focusing on communication, leadership,
character, and big idea because Iwant to have a place we can
talk about philosophy and theology, leadershipand culture, politics, you know,
(53:07):
and and the environment, whatever theconversation was. I want to have a
place where we could bang around bigideas and and and then have a learning
community where really sharp people could behelping each other as well. So it's
probably the most exciting thing I've createdsince Mosaic. Since launching Mosaic, I
feel like the Arena is going totransform adult learning and and so I'm so
(53:29):
deeply committed Mind Shift one. Itwould just be I would really appreciate for
people to get the word out.It's I think it's going to be such
an impactful book. And the greatdanger of this book for me is that
the people who know me will go, wait a minut, wait, it's
not it's not a faith book.And but I need not only people who
(53:51):
believe in Jesus to realize this bookwill. I think it's transformative. It
will change your life. It willdestroy the internal limitations inside of inside of
your soul, and it's very excitingto me. But it's also the perfect
book to give to people who don'thave faith. And because I did it
backwards, my shift is John theBaptist, and the Genius of Jesus is
(54:14):
actually Jesus. It's like, youknow, I wrote the book the Genius
of Jesus, And I think whenpeople read a book and are impacted by
it, then they look at theauthor's back list, and for me,
it's exciting to think people will readmind Shift, which is a very fast
read. Yeah and yeah, Imean I just did the audio book in
four hours, and you know,and when they but it's like red Bull.
(54:39):
Every Shift is transformative in a person'slife. And then if people then
want to pick up more than theygo to the Genius of Jesus, which
to me is is the book thatreally opens up who Jesus is to people
who don't have faith. So I'mvery excited about it, and I think
this is going to be the mostexciting year in my life. I'm so
(55:00):
looking forward to sixty five. That'sso cool, and the best years are
yet ahead, I'm sure for you, and I just I love being able
to watch this journey that you've beenon, and I know what's spoken to
my life. I have a lotof friends that it's spoken to their life,
and so I just, you know, as a little guy over here
in northern Illinois, I just wantto say your life has been a beacon
(55:23):
of hope to those who might feela little outside the norm when it comes
to how the church views Christianity oreven how the church views community. And
I just I want to say thankyou so much for what you have meant
to not only me, but tomy generation. I'm forty, I'm forty
(55:45):
two, right, is that howold I am? We'll go with forty
two. It's close enough. AndI know that I talked to friends,
I talked to other leaders, andthey've read your books that it's not just
about like, hey, here's thecelebrity guy, but just really feeling like
there's a leader who gets us.And I just want to say thank you
for getting us and being willing tohave conversations that might not be typical and
(56:12):
that often to see you talk toIt's just so powerful. I just want
to say thank you for that.Hey, thank you so much, and
Michael, thanks so much for havingme. Once again, I want to
thank Irwin for joining us here onthe Jumble Thing podcast. What an incredible
guy and so many wonderful insights.You should go get the book. It's
out now, it's out today,and it is a short and easy read,
(56:34):
but it will change your life.It's called Mind Shift. You can
check that out and so much moreabout Irwin by going to Irwin McManus dot
com. Those links are in theepisode notes. Next week on the show,
we have a killer conversation with ShelleyHerman. She is an Emmy nominated
show biz veteran. She has abook out called My Peacocktail Secrets of an
(56:54):
NBC Page and pages on production studioin Hollywood. They keep those studios running
and she has crazy stories from herexperience in the mid to late seventies working
at NBC Burbank. We talked aboutJoan Rivers, we talked about Johnny Carson.
We talk about just all kinds ofactors and the stories of what happens
(57:20):
in Hollywood behind the scenes. Somake sure to check out that conversation next
week on the Jumble Think podcast.I want to thank you for tuning into
today's show. It means the worldto me that you would listen and hope
today's conversation has challenged your thinking andencourage you to chase your dreams. We
believe that you were created for somethingawesome, that your dreams and ideas matter,
and that you should step out intothe possibilities of what you're created to
(57:44):
do. So now it's your turnto take these lessons to get out there,
to dream big and to change theworld around you. Or Fami Lesant
(58:17):
with Tigle mont ramon Robitalism, Don'tTell, Tom war Moscovo rebiancs La Technique
Meme and Trava
This is episode three hundred and ninetyfour of Jumble Think Teams ten, nine,
eight, seven, sick five orthree two one. Welcome to Jumble
(00:21):
Think, where we talk to dreamers, makers, innovators, and influencers all
about their journey of turning dreams andideas into reality. Along the way,
we're going to share some tips onhow you can turn your own dreams and
ideas into reality. Two. Ourguest on today's show is Irwin McManus.
More about Irwin in a moment.Whether you're a longtime listener or a new
subscriber, make sure you go andsubscribe to the show wherever you listen to
(00:44):
the podcasts. Hey, thanks againfor subscribing to the show and listening.
Now let's join today's conversation. Heythere, friends, welcome to Jumble Think.
(01:07):
My name's Michael Woodward. I amyour host. We have an absolutely
wonderful episode lined up for you today. But before we dive into that,
I just want to give you alittle taste of what's coming in this new
season of Jumble Thing. First off, if you aren't watching this, if
you're listening, you can now gosee all of our episodes and video format
over at YouTube. We'll put thatlink in the episode notes so you can
(01:30):
check that out. You're not gonnawant to miss this episode in video form,
and we're gonna be releasing all ofour future episodes as videos, so
you can not only listen to itif you want to, but you can
also go watch it if you preferto do that. I'd also encourage you,
if you're new to the Jumble Thinkpodcast, go ahead and subscribe to
our show wherever you listen to podcasts. We've got some great things lined up
(01:53):
for you in the weeks to come, and I don't want you to miss
a thing, so go subscribe tothe show now. On the show today,
our guest is Irwin McManus, andIrwin is no stranger to the Jumble
Thing podcast. It's hard to believeback, but back in February of twenty
nineteen and episode two hundred and thirteen, he was one of our guests and
(02:13):
we had a fascinating conversation about abook he had released at that time.
If you like the conversation today,or you want to hear more from Irwin,
make sure to go back and listento that episode. Irwin is an
author, he's a pastor, heworks in the world world of business.
He is launching a mastermind. Hehas a new book out called mind Shift,
(02:34):
and it's all about how we canhave genius thinking and how we can
rewire our thinking in our lives.And they're also launching a really cool program
called The Arena. So before wedive in, if you want to check
out those things while you're listening,head on over to Irwin McManus dot com.
That link will be in the episodenotes and you can take a look
at what's happening there. So let'swaste no more time. Let's go ahead
(02:58):
and join today's conversation with our friend, Erwin McManus. Irwin, it's always
great to have you on the JumbleThing podcast. Thanks so much for joining
us. Oh Man, so goodto be with you. Well, we
had you on a couple of yearsago, and a lot's change COVID's happened.
The world around us has shifted,and it sounds like you have been
(03:19):
going through a shift too. Listeningto your podcast and then checking out the
new book, there's been some changesin your world, So give us a
little update on some things that arehappening with you and the shift towards this
new direction. Well, you know, when we're recording this, I'm just
a couple of days from twenty sixtyfive. So I'm in a pretty big
shift in life. Anyway, oneof my friends last night, I was
(03:43):
going, so, are you goingto retire? What's going on? You
know, And I said, no, no, no, I think I'm
just I feel like I'm starting fromscratch in a really wonderful way. Yeah.
You know, during the pandemic,I think a lot of people's life
shifted, and and and I thinkeven those needs shifted and in a lot
of the topography of the way peopleare engaging the world around them. And
(04:08):
I've always worked in the private sector. I've always worked in the business world,
i always worked in the educational world. But my public life is always
what I've done at Mosaic, youknow, founding Mosaic and leading this community
of faith here in la and andit's impact you know, in some small
(04:28):
way around the world, and andand but people didn't realize is that Mosaic
was you know, self funded.It was funded by me and my wife.
And so I always think it's funnywhen people talk about, you know,
pastors choosing to go into you know, this kind of work for the
money. I'm like, not inla not here here you you you you.
(04:54):
It's like a vow of poverty andh and then you have to decide
to be an entrepreneur outside of that. So I so just just by the
nature of what I chose to dowith my life, I had to work
outside of the church. Pastors work. Let me be very clear. Pastors
work, and they work hard,and it's definitely a full time job.
Plus I just never had that luxury. Yeah, I always had to have
(05:16):
a career outside of starting Mosaic,outside of pastoring, outside of what I
did in that space, but Inever wanted that that career to be my
public conversation. Yeah, but whathappened really coming up to the pandemic.
Well, if you kind of followmy life journey, I go in and
(05:38):
out of the public space. Yes, you know. I used to write
a lot of books in the faithspace and speak a lot around the world
in the faith space, and thenI disappeared for about five or six years,
and I started a fashion company anda film company, and had a
tech company, and and just stoppedspeaking around the world, stopped writing books,
(06:02):
and some of it is I alwaysI kind of love anonymity, and
I'm not a person who ever feltcomfortable with any level of fame or or
you know, that sense of celebrity, and so I would always just pull
into a different direction. And thenwhen my kids were adults, and my
(06:25):
son sent me a text one dayand basically challenged me to redirect myself into
the church again. Then at ahigh level, my daughter came to me
and basically said, you know,my generation needs you and we need your
voice. So my kids were intheir twenties at that time, were the
ones who really pulled me back intoa public ministry. Wow, And that's
(06:47):
really you know what I did forso many years with Mosaic, and then
the pandemic hit and and the realitywas that all the work that I did
outside of the church was kind ofgone. Actually in the in the world
of the church, you know,there were just no more like church conferences
or consulting with with groups and workingat a high level of thinking in that
(07:14):
space. But what really opened upto me pretty tremendously was the world of
entrepreneurs was sorry. I was invitedto begin to speak and mentor a lot
of people and in masterminds and Ididn't even know the mastermind world existed,
to be honest with you, Iwasn't paying attention to it. I wasn't
aware of it. You know,one of the business guys that I mentor
(07:38):
and invest in, he said,Hey, would you take thirty minutes and
talk to my friend ed my letAnd I had no idea who had my
let was. I didn't know.You know, he had millions of followers
and had grown a billion dollar companyor whatever it is. And and then
we became friends, and I endedup going on his podcast and we had
like six million downloads, and andand then and other business friends started contacting
(08:03):
me. And I didn't even knowhow deep and expansive my reach was in
that world, to be honest withyou, because I always kept it very
small, very quiet, very private, and it just kept growing and growing,
and especially during the pandemic. Frankly, entrepreneurs didn't stop during the pandemic.
Oh, they elevated. They theybasically decided, hey, you know,
(08:26):
the government can shut the world down, where we're going to take over
the markets. And and so Iended up in masses massive amount of work
and in engagements and speaking at theseevents and all of them seemingly either underground
or in Florida. And it realized, oh, you know, for those
(08:50):
of us who live our lives deeplyconnected to our faith and to Jesus,
you know, in our relationship tohim, I feel like God is so
clearly redirecting my life in a waywhere it wasn't something I was pursuing.
It wasn't you know, waking upon morning going I think I'm gonna do
this. It was waking up onmorning going, oh wow, my life
is radically changed. A whole newworld has opened up for me. And
(09:16):
and now I just need to havethe courage and the adaptability to respond to
this new opportunity. So next thing, I knew, I was making my
private work my public life, andyou know, going public that I've been
an entrepreneur for thirty years, andI you know, I think in the
(09:37):
business space, I mentor people whoare at the highest levels in their domain
of work, whether it's sports orfashion or music or business. And and
I actually I love it. AndI'm still doing Mosaic. So people said,
wait a minute. One of myyou know, business friends asked,
are you leaving Mosaic? And Isaid no, no, no, Now
(09:58):
I can give more to mosaic.That makes it very, very exciting to
me. And and and then myson, who Aaron, who is thirty
five, and he's still single,and and you know, he loves the
church and he's loves serving, buthe said, you know, being single,
I just don't think ministries right spacefor me at thirty five. I
(10:18):
really rather be in the business world. And so this gave us a chance
to work together and UH to doa lot of personal development and coaching and
strategic thinking and creating environments for peopleoutside of the faith. Yeah. And
and franklyin Michael and you you you'vebeen in you know, both sides of
of that, you know line,in the business world and in the church
(10:39):
world. I see I get toshare my faith with more people in the
business sector than you than most peopleever do in their entire lives and through
the church. And and I getto see so many people come to faith
who are millionaires and billionaires because ofthe rust and the relationship and the rapport
(11:03):
that we developed together. And theywouldn't respect me or trust me if they
didn't feel that, you know,I was at the top of the game,
you know. And they're very competitive. They only relate to who they
perceived to be the best of thebest, and there it's not a forgiving
environment. You know, I getthat for sure. It's a shark shark
(11:26):
world, and I have to bea really, really intelligent porpoise, and
I really do love it. It'sfunny because one day I was complaining,
you know, to my wife andsaying, oh my gosh, these guys,
these guys just keep calling me.I'm waking up at six in the
morning from attack from one of them, asking me about a business decision,
(11:48):
and I'm you know, I'm havingthe work here and there, and my
wife goes, and you love it, don't you? And I said,
I really do. It's just somuch fun. I like working with people
who have very very little margin oferror, right right, and go ahead.
Yeah, I was just gonna say, like, I so relate to
your story. I think that's partof the reasons why I have looked up
(12:11):
to you for so often. BecauseI started my adult life and ministry,
and then I ended up in themarketplace because of a recession, and the
church can afford to pay me.I kept doing ministry, but you know,
I had to kind of check outand go, hey, how do
I pay the bills while I dothis? You know? And and I
always was looking for that person whoI go, they get me. And
(12:33):
I've always felt as I've read thebook, like like your books, and
I start out with Barbarian Way andUnstoppable Force, and I have them right
back here on the right corner ofmy bookshelf of thank you so much and
so and I just relate to thatintertwining of the entrepreneurial spirit while being in
the pastoral place and realizing that maybethe world around us isn't as turned off
(13:01):
to the message of Jesus or intothe hope he gives, or even the
lessons that we can take as pastorsor entrepreneurs to walk people through both the
place of business but also the placeof life. And I love in the
book how you talk about there's onegentleman that you met and you're doing a
mastermind which book the Mind Shift book? Okay, well, don't want to
(13:26):
saying the book. Yeah, yougot an advanced copy of my next book
about October three. Yeah, veryexcited about it. I am. I
love this book. And I haveto say, after reading so many of
your books, this one feels alot different, and I just really love
it because you tell some great stories. You are a master storyteller, but
(13:46):
you also give some practical like,hey, you've got your mind wrong,
get it fixed. And so there'sa guy you meet at a conference or
not a conference, but a mastermindin which he's a high performer, really
wealth and on paper his business isgreat, things are going well, but
there's some things on the personal sidethat aren't right. And so there's so
(14:07):
much of what you're teaching in thisbook that applies both to the personal and
business. So for you, asyou lead, as you get into the
place where you're walking with these businesspeople, are you experiencing the same thing
I'm experiencing when it comes to likethere's a lot more openness to like really
doing life together at a deep levelthat goes beyond the business, and a
(14:28):
lot of business people are looking forthat. Yeah. Ironically, Michael,
what I find is that the businesssector is so much more open to the
culture and principles of faith than thechurches. A lot of times, I
mean too, I understand that becausea lot of times the church becomes a
(14:50):
conclict, like a place to hidefrom the world, right and it's driven
by safety and security and belief andstability. You don't really need a lot
of faith, no, if you'rechoosing safety and security and predictability and comfort.
But these guys they're whisking everything,They're on the edge every single day.
(15:11):
They're they're giving everything they got andit's it's heavy, there's a lot
of weight to it. So theykind of instinctively know they need faith even
when they don't believe in God,right, and so it's misplaced me.
You know, I have faith inmyself. You know, like there are
a million like business mantras to tryto give you faith in yourself, and
(15:33):
it kind of leaves you a littleempty after a while because you're like,
I can do it, I cando it, and these guys get so
exhausted, going I don't know ifI can. And then when you go,
oh, you're not created to doit by yourself, and they go,
oh yeah, that makes a hugedifference. And then their marriage is
of falling apart. And you know, they developed a lot of like economic
(15:58):
IQ, but they didn't develop alot of emotional like you. And and
then you go, okay, waita minute, you know you don't want
to die alone. I mean,the first mastermind I ever spoke during the
pandemic. I should up and allthese guys, you know, we have
multimillion dollar companies and and uh,and my opening line I think when I
got up there was I'm not goingto teach you how to get rich.
(16:19):
All of you are richer than me. I am going to teach you how
not to die alone. Yeah.And and there's just so much openness that
I think it's pretty shorter. Soit's it's openness to finding health. Yeah,
but it's also like openness to findingGod, yes, you know.
(16:40):
And so some of it's pragmatic,like my life's a masks, my marriage
is falling apart. I've waited toolong maybe. And I'm gonna say this,
and I know this is not gonnabe very popular, but most of
the guys that I've met going througha divorce are Christians. Yeah. So
true, It's true, you know. And I think it's because they thought,
hey, I can go build myfifty million dollars company, right,
(17:03):
and we have Jesus, so he'llkeep my marriage together. Yeah. Yeah,
And they don't pay attention to basicrelational principles, right, that very
essential to keep your relationship healthy andMichael, this is like the reason this
book feels differently is that this bookis actually how I think interesting sook when
(17:27):
you say that, like, thisis how I think unpack that a little
bit differently, because like I thinkthat, you know, we all think
that we know more about a personthrough the osmosis of seeing their posts online
or reading their books and that kindof thing. So, so like when
you're approaching a problem, and mindshift is really about approaching the problem of
(17:48):
ourselves often, So how when you'reproblem solving and you're saying, like,
I think more like this book thananything else I've written, what does that
mean? Like, that's how Ithink it's. Well, there's several things.
One is that anyone who's ever followedme in any way listen to any
conversations. I mean, you knowthat I hate superstitious thinking. Yeah.
(18:14):
Yeah, And I put every belief, every conviction, every thought through the
crucible of practicality of does it actuallywork in real life? Yeah. And
one of the frustrations for me wasmeeting so many people that I feel are
very sincere in their faith. Ithink they really do love Jesus and they
(18:38):
really do trust him. With theirlives, but they have terribly destructive mental
structures and they never change them becausethey think believing in Jesus is enough.
Yeah. Yeah. And and it'salmost like a crime or heresy to say
you don't just need Jesus, youneed to change the way you think,
(19:00):
right, right. And And whatwhat I found is part of the reason
I love I mean, I lovethe Scriptures. I love the Bible.
Yeah, And I don't love itfor the same reason I think a lot
of times Christians love it, Okay, And I think a lot of times
like Christians love it because they cango to doctrines that give them comfort.
(19:21):
Yeah. I love the scriptures becauseit teaches me how to be fully human
and how to be fully alive.Yeah. And I extract out of the
Bible how to think and in away where life works. Yea. And
but what I did with my shiftis I extracted it in the way I
(19:41):
speak to people in the business world, you know. And so I'm not
assuming they believe the Bible. I'mnot assuming they believe in God. I'm
not assuming they believe in Jesus.I am assuming they need help. Yeah,
And they're trying to figure out howto figure out life. Yeah,
and you know, so later inthe chapters, I actually mentioned Jesus.
Yes. And in fact, mydaughter, who, like my daughter is
(20:03):
like the the you know, thepinnacle of faith. Like my daughter is
like a Jesus person just through andthrough oozes her faith. And she said,
Hey, Dad, you know you'rewriting a social psychology book. You
need to like prepare your audience.You need to help them transition with you,
or they're going to be really confused. Yeah, and you know,
(20:26):
and so I've never dedicated I've neverdedicated a book to Jesus because my life
is dedicated to Jesus. But thisbook, if you looked at the dedication,
is actually dedicated to Jesus. Idid notice that. Yeah, And
the reason I dedicated it to Jesusis I want people to know just because
it's a social psychology book doesn't meanthat I shifted the epicenter of my life.
(20:51):
Like my life is still all aboutJesus. But what I am going
to do is I'm going to translatewhat I've learned from the wisdom of with
Him about real life in a waythat anyone who can access it. And
I'm convinced it works backwards. Youhelp a person makes sense of their life
and they become open to faith.Yeah, I want to pause there for
a second, come back to this, but you mentioned Mariah, who's your
(21:15):
daughter, and uh, you're adad. I'm a dad. I have
two daughters ten and six. Youyou are much at a different a different
phase of being a father. Butjust as a person who has watched your
podcast and also seeing the worship that'scoming out of Mosaic, Mariah brings a
(21:37):
special and unique voice for this timeand for this generation. And I just
love when you guys release an albumor something because there is a freshness and
newness to that and and she isspecifically designed for the season, as is
Aaron. And just the conversations youboth have and so father to father,
h you know, the fruit isthere that you have been faithful and and
(22:00):
done like so much just to raisethem up the right way. And it's
an encouragement to dads like me whoare are doing it now, going like
it's possible to raise up our childrenand be okay and make it through.
So you know, we we hadtough water, you know, rough waters
and tough moments and and it's oneof the things I really tried to focus
(22:23):
on is that I don't need themto be a certain person for me,
right. That's so powerful. AndI think a lot of parents they try
to parent their kids based on theirown self image. Yeah, And my
kids don't need to live for mylegacy, They don't need to live from
(22:44):
my reputation. They just need tolive for theirs. Yea. And they
need to be true to themselves andgo through whatever struggles or searches they need
to go through. And I'm alwaystheir dad, I'm always their fan,
I'm always for them. And it'syou know, it's the reason Kim and
I we've been married forty years,you know, and our kids live.
(23:10):
Mariah lives probably four minutes from us, and Aaron probably lives eight minutes from
us. And they bought houses withindriving or walking distance of our house because
they wanted to be near us.And I think the best proof of parenting
is if your kids want to beyour friends when they become adults. Yeah,
that's our goal. And our kidskeep saying they want to live by
(23:30):
us. Once there, they saidthey don't want to move out. We
told them that's not an option thatwe're gonna go one of the things I
love in the book that you mentioned. I just I'm gonna quote this because
I think it's a powerful statement.You said. It may sound fair,
but it doesn't matter. If it'snot your fault, it's still your responsibility.
(23:52):
No one but you is accountable foryour life. And one of the
other things that you say early onin the book, just in the forward
and the author's notes, is thisconcept of near life or almost living or
near death and almost dying. AndI think the two go together really strongly.
There are so many of us thatare coming out of COVID or coming
(24:15):
out of like so much is changingin our society that we've kind of checked
out in this season, and that'sone of as a pastor now it's one
of the things with our people thatI'm constantly speaking to, like you're alive,
go live, And so I justwant to unpack that with you for
a second, like like that's amindset shift on like truly engaging with the
(24:37):
life, the dreams, that ideas, the calling, the purpose, all
of those aspects of life. Andso for you as you face that struggle
with people at Mosaic or people inthe business space, and that limiting belief
of fear or even blame on others. How do we process that better?
How do we lead people to thatplace of like breakthrough in that. That's
(25:00):
a huge motive behind my book,to be honest with you, is that
I feel like we're living in atime, at least in our society,
our culture, where we've been giventhe curse of blame. We are blaming
(25:21):
everyone and everything else for the deficitsin our lives. Yeah, and you
know, and I'm an immigrant frommos Salvador. Spanish was my first language.
I never knew my real father.My grandparents raised me for the first
couple of years of my life.You know, I actually experienced racism.
I was. My salary was cutonce they realized I was an immigrant when
(25:45):
I went to work for a prisionalorganization. Yeah, I mean I got
out of my car one time whendriving home in high school because the neighbors
shouted an ethnic slur at me andwanted me to, you know, to
get out of the neighborhood. Andso I understand all these things. And
(26:07):
when I was in college, though, I was offered a scholarship for being
an ethnic minority, for being aLatin Hispanic, and I turned it down.
And I was poor. I meanI was I paid my way through
college. I had no one helpedme. I was on my own.
And when they offered me a scholarship, you know, thousands of dollars,
(26:29):
and I turned it down because Isaid, it don't feel it's right to
be given a scholarship because of thecolor of my skin or because of my
ethnicity, because I happened to bean immigrant from O Salvador. Yeah,
and give me a scholarship if I'msmart enough, or if I have a
skill or talent that has value,but not just because of the you know,
the chance of my birth. SoI've always had this mindset, and
(26:52):
I think my grandparents really gave itto me. They they they told me
no one is to blame for yourfailure and no one is responsible for your
success. Yeah, yea. Andthroughout the mind shift, each chapter really
moves us toward a small, granularshift that will radically alter our lives.
(27:12):
And you know, when you hearthe language, even in our culture day,
of things like white privilege, andyou know, Michael, it's got
to be so hard to be awhite man right now, Like you're just
like the devil, you know,and or we or the whole language of
you know, rich people people withwalth are evil and every or the government
(27:33):
is you know evil, or there'ssystemic racism in every institution. The language
is actually a language of passivity thatsays someone else is to blame for my
lack of accomplishment. Yeah. Yeah, And I'm like you see, the
way I was raised was even ifall those things are true, they still
can't stop you, right, ifyou refuse to be stopped. Right.
(27:56):
And so for me, my shiftis really the world is unfair, Like
the world is unjust. There isn'tequality, there is racism, there is
stuff. Yeah, that's that's actuallythe real world. Yeah, and so
what are you gonna do now?Yeah, if you take responsibility, no
(28:18):
one has power over you. Yeah, absolutely. And I remember for me,
I grew up, we were toldthat you're going to succeed, that
was the requirement. And uh,they didn't care where you succeeded. They
just said what are you? Whereare you going? And I was at
a young age, I struggled inkindergarten, first grade, and I remember
for me personally getting put in theclass with the bad kids because I didn't
(28:41):
learn the same way, and Iwas told, well, you you're just
a bad kid. So I wasthere and my parents really advocated for me,
and and it was it was reallyamazing to see that that fruit.
And they said, well, actually, it has to do with the fact
that you're teaching him in a waythat he doesn't learn. And so they
adjusted in the school. And Iremember I graduated high school and I had
(29:02):
gotten to excelled classes and graduated reallywell. And I remember going to college
and my mom saying, hey,remember you have that learning disability. You
can use that to your advantage,whether it's in test taking and stuff like
that. And I just went,that's not my identity. I'm not going
to accept that. I'm not goingto take that in. That's not who
I am. And so I nevermentioned that to the college that I went
(29:26):
to. I never and it waslike, I'm going to work a little
bit harder, I'm going to haveto adjust. But I've been given the
tools and the resources to say,you know, this is on me,
this isn't on anyone else. AndI think I agree with you so much
that this is a struggle that like, we aren't all victims and I think
that they're in that that question ofinclusion and diversity. Like, as we
(29:48):
try to make everything where everyone getsexactly the same thing, we dilute the
value of the beauty of that individual. We dilute the value of like the
uniqueness and the p were and tostrengthen them by making everyone average. And
you even talk about that, yousay about the average in most things,
but excellent in some Yeah. Oneof my favorite chapters is a chapter that
(30:10):
deals with the mind shift of youare your own ceiling. Yes, Yeah,
And when you begin to recognize thefact that regardless of how much opposition
you have, regardless of how manyobstacles you have to face, that in
the end, you are your ownceiling. Yeah. And we have the
great advantage, especially in this nationand most of the world, where there's
(30:36):
at least some monicum of freedom,you can create the life that you desire.
Now. I understand there are placesin the world where opportunities are rare
and people are struggling to survive,but you cannot use that as an excuse
for you. Yeah. And infact, what I find is when I
(30:56):
travel the world, because my wifeworks in Malawi quite a bit. We
built the school, they were buildinghouses there. Most of those people who
have so little, they see themselvesas having so much opportunity, and they
seem those as being resplendent with possibilities. And and I just if a lot
(31:18):
of us had their sense of optimismand determination, we'd be blowing the ceiling
off of our lives. Yeah,I still agree with that, and I'm
constantly talking to my team just aboutlike, where are you pushing yourself?
Where are you uncomfortable? Push intobeing uncomfortable. I'm going to ask a
question for my own benefit for asecond, but I think it's going to
(31:41):
apply to many other people. Probablyall of our listeners really identify with this.
You are super busy, you aredoing a lot. You're I was
just watching you on GLS like acouple of weeks ago, and then you're
in South America, and then you'rein Mexico, and then you're in LA
and then you're working on this projectwith Fashion and you're doing that and I
(32:01):
wrote it down. You you're doingMosaic, You're leading that, you are
writing constantly. You're just launched thearena, which is pretty phenomenal. We
need to talk about that in asecond. Fashion the podcast, coaching and
consulting over a half dozen businesses.You're doing Masterminds. There's even things that
(32:22):
are on the horizon that I haven'tbeen announced. And I get it,
like like I'm in school right now, I'm pastoring a campus. I'm I'm
running my business still at a highlevel doing the podcast, and I relate
to that. But I often struggle, like with that sense of bounce in
like what I'm doing and just likelike I'm always going, never stopping,
(32:44):
never resting, never in that place. How do you navigate that? Because
you address that a little bit inthe book too. Yeah. Well,
I love my daughter's advice. Shejust keeps saying to me, Dad,
make remember only do the things youcare about, just doing things you want
to do. Yeah, And likeyou know, she she knows me.
And I do a lot of thingsout of obligation. I do a lot
of things because other people need meto. And you know, she's sort
(33:07):
of like my watchdog of going,you know, make sure that it's what
you you feel you're supposed to know. Yeah, and I think that I
have one People do not have thesame amount of energy, and I had
to accept that years ago. Ihave the psychological assessments I use, and
I can actually measure how much physicalenergy a person has and social energy,
(33:29):
emotional energy, and my like physicalenergy is in the top like one percentile.
And so I had to realize earlyon that people look really lazy to
me, and in a lot waytoo. I'm sorry, I do,
you know. And I just hadto accept the fact that most people don't
(33:51):
have the same amount of energy,and I shouldn't measure them based on how
much energy I have. But I'mresponsible for how much energy I have.
I feel like that's something that's likea God given gift. And and so
for me to to do last someonewho has less energy is really for me,
it would be unethical. And andthen I have a lot of things
(34:14):
that are either fascinating to me I'mpassionate about or I feel that they won't
happen unless I do them. Yeah, And that's always been sort of my
prayers, you know, God,let me do the things that no one
either no one can do or noone will do. Yeah. Yeah,
And that's how I've kind of craftedmy life. I started Mosaic in Hollywood
(34:37):
because it was it was two things. It was something that no one seemed
to want to do, and andand something it seemed like no one could
do. And so I took thison because it was the hardest place probably
in America to create a community offaith that was open about Jesus and believe
the scriptures, and one of themost you know, liberal, you know,
(35:01):
epicenters in the world. And soI chose that very specifically, it
would be much easier to do somethingelse and to do the same thing somewhere
else. Yeah, and and soit's the same way with like the arena.
You know, I'm working one onone with people and working with a
mastermind, two masterminds, and oractually more than that. But I began
(35:22):
to realize that, you know,when I coach at the highest level,
it's it's a six figure relationship,and you know, very few people can
afford that. But it's a highlyintensive, low margin of error relationship.
And and then the mastermind that Ilead, it's it's it's expensive. It's
like thirty thousand a year, andso it it and it and it only
(35:45):
it allows a certain kind of personto be in that room with their peers
and and they're able to then bemore open and to be more vulnerable and
to have a higher learning posture becausethey're just dealing with different issues that other
people are not. And and soI thought, Okay, there's no one
in the world doing a mastermind that'sonline, that's actually dynamic, that's more
(36:10):
affordable, and and so we feltlike the arena was like blue ocean it
yeah, yeah, you know,it doesn't exist, and not many people
could create it. Yeah, youknow, because I kind of like,
I live in all those sectors.I live in the world of business,
and I live the world of faith, and I work in the world of
(36:30):
personal development and character development and alsostrategic thinking. And so I'm able to
create a different kind of world withthe arena. And and then you know,
someone asked me, well, it'sstill pretty expensive, because like four
thousand a year, so it's fairlyexpensive. And I said, and someone
said, what about us who arejust starting? And I go, the
arena isn't for you. It's likeyou wouldn't take a master's degree and put
(36:50):
it in fifth grade. Yeah,you know, and you want you want
to create a space for people whoare dealing with really serious growth, leadership,
communication issues and they need they wantto become and need to become the
best of the best. So theway I factored things are, is it
something I love. I love designingclothes. I know it's not gonna change
(37:13):
the world, not gonna make theworld, you know, dramatically better.
But when I started designing clothes,I did it because I felt like fashion
was making our boys effeminate and uhand and there wasn't really a lot of
brands that pushed the masculinity as apositive virtue. And so when I started
my first brand, my theme washeroism as a style. And so I
(37:37):
understand that fashion translates values and expandsculture. So I wanted to have a
small fingerprint and fashion that actually said, hey, I want to create really
cool, cutting edge clothes for men, that says, hey, I'm edgy,
but I'm I'm a man, I'mmasculine, And so yeah, that
was actually my intention. So there'salways a subtle intention behind every thing I
(38:00):
do, and that's how I chooseit. And I have enough energy because
I love it. Yeah. Yeah, And you know one of the things
you talk about in the book thatI think dovetails with this so well,
that I think is a really importantpart is like you mentioned about the elements
of obligation for your job, forthe things that you do. That there
is an element that there are thingsthat you simply probably wouldn't choose to do,
(38:22):
but the role requires it. Andyou talk about bitterness as a poison,
and I know I struggle with thatas a leader often, where you
know, I try really hard tokeep that optimism that you talk about,
that right perspective, but like it'sreally easy to get where you find that
little seed of something that bothers youor something that you feel like it's really
(38:46):
not my job, it's not myresponsibility, it's someone else should be doing
this. And it's so easy tohave that switch between like like the joy
factor and like the what in theworld am I doing here, you know
a place, So like talk tous a little bit about that and how
to navigate keeping our heart in ourmind right in that. Yeah, you
know, there are things I strugglewith, but bitterness isn't one of them,
(39:10):
Okay. And in fact, Iwas just working with this company and
they missed our appointment I think threetimes. Wow. CEO reakes out to
me was super apologetic, and Ithink it was really worried, and I
said, I just texted back,don't worry, it's virtually impossible to offend
me, and he said, thankyou so much. And I just years
(39:32):
ago realized one, when you're offended, it's it's it's at least a small
indicator of arrogance of pride, becauseyou feel like people treated you beneath your
value or your stature. Wow.And uh. And so I just always
told myself, try to choose likea path of humility where it's impossible to
(39:53):
offend you. Yeah, and Iget. And then and then also sometimes
bitterness is because you assumed ill intentor bad motives from the other person.
And because if you assume the bestmotive, you wouldn't be bitter, you
wouldn't be offended. And so whenthey didn't make the meetings three times,
A thought, wow, really importantthings must have come up. Yeah,
(40:15):
you know, Wow, for themto miss three meetings, they must be
overwhelmed and swamped. And so Ijust try to never impose negative motive on
another human being. You have toyou have to convince me that you're trying
to offend me. And then Ithink the third thing for me is that
(40:35):
I know that whatever I become embitteredtowards I become like, yeah, wow,
So bitterness binds you to the negativebehavior of the person that offended you,
and you will become like them,because that's what bitterness does. It
binds you to that that emotional frequency. And and I just like, I
(40:57):
just go, I don't want tobecome that, and so I just refused
to have that life one of thethings. And my kids will verify this,
and so hold my wife. Butthe odd thing is that if you
really really profoundly like hurt me,like you know, because I I've had
betrayal, Yeah, you know,that's some pretty significant deep wounds in my
(41:19):
life, I so let it gothat I forget the person. And because
I have a neurological issue anyway,I don't have chronological memory the way other
people do. And I remember onetime I was in an airport in Europe
somewhere and this guy comes up tome who really died something horrific and the
years before and he and he cameup and he was super apologetic and was
(41:45):
like asking for forgiveness, and Isaid, hey, I'm so sorry,
could you tell me your name?And uh, and he told me his
name. I remembered him, andI'm like how can I forget him like
he was in my home? Likebut like I just I just let go
of bitterness and then I forget likethat negative memory. I have people ten
(42:05):
fifteen years later email me or sendme a note going, please forgive me
for what I did, you know, ten years ago, and I don't
remember what they did. And I'llusually text them back and I'll go,
I can't remember what you did,right, but you need to forgive yourself
because I forgave you ten years ago, you know. And I'll say,
(42:28):
I'm so sad that you've carried thatemotion for so long. If you had
just asked for forgiveness right away,you would have been free. I've been
free all these years. And whenyou're bitter, you're not free. Yeah,
and you know. Yeah, SoI just try and encourage people.
Look, you know, if youoffend someone, ask for forgiveness fast and
mean it so that you can befree. And if someone offends you,
(42:52):
like, let it go as fastas you can so you can be free
of it. Yeah. I thinkbitterness is a poison and it'll it'll destroy
you. It's a liar. Bitternessfeels like power, and that's why people
choose it. Yeah, bitterness makesyou feel powerful, and forgiveness makes you
feel vulnerable, and we do notlike the feeling of vulnerability that we could
(43:12):
be hurt again. Yeah, Andso then we become hardened through bitterness,
and we feel that we are nowimpossible to hurt. But what it also
does, you may become impossible tohurt, you're also impossible to experience love
and forgiveness and joy and in yourfull humanity. Wow, so powerful and
something I can take to heart personallyand areas of my life because I think
(43:37):
you know, when you care deeplybe by people, it's easy to be
hurt deeply. And I'm sure you'veencountered that where you've so believed in someone
and just been disappointed by the outcome. And I think one area in our
culture right now where we're struggling withis leadership as a whole. I think
(43:58):
of how many pastors, how manyfamous people that doesn't matter at all levels.
There are so many people failing.And I remember I remember you announcing
on Instagram, Hey, I havesomething to share with everyone, and I
remember seeing that going, well,if it's that important, I need to
hear what everyone has to say.I remember watching it, and and you
(44:21):
know that there's that whole side ofdread where it's like, uh, did
another leader fail? And I rememberwatching and seeing you get into it and
you go, I'm not okay.I have cancer and I'm dealing with that.
And it was so sad for meto feel like relief on that that,
like, here's somebody that in leadershipI look up to and I have
(44:42):
a high respect for. And Iwas set up for disappointment because I have
seen so many people in leadership fail. And as a leader who leads in
many aspects of life, how doyou keep that place of purity, of
consistency, of that place of stayingon vision and on point and not distracted?
Because I think we have a focusissue that often pulls us away from
(45:06):
our vision or our purpose as wewalk through life. Well, I think
that a part of the problem isour culture. I mean the fact,
Michael, if I could just bestraight up, like the fact that you
were relieved that I had cancer soit might I might die, it was
actually more relieving than if I'd hadan affair so I might not meet your
(45:27):
standards? Right? Is a partof the problem with Christianity, Yeah,
is that we need leaders to beso exceptional that they lie to us their
whole lives. Yeah. And anda huge part of it is and I've
grapped a lot of leaders psychologically,and you know, my background is in
that world as a social psychologist.And most megachurch pastors are like CEOs of
(45:57):
fortune five hundred companies or founders ofthose companies. And they're all basically narcissists.
Yeah. And I don't mean thatin a condescending or condemning way.
I mean they have the psychological structuresof a narcissistic personality. Yeah. And
then when we go, yeah,we knew there were narcissists. No,
what we need to realize is that'swho Christians are drawn to. You see
(46:22):
said we go, yeah, weblame him because he's a narcissist, and
I'm going no, There's a reasontwenty thousand people are in that building is
that they're drawn towards a narcissistic personalitystructure. And so my bigger concern hasn't
been why do pastors keep messing up? My question is why is Christianity so
drawn to that kind of personality andthat style of leadership? Because it would
(46:43):
only be successful and effective if that'swhat we want. Yeah. And I
remember years ago I met with oneof I guess you was Oprah's main producer,
and we're looking at doing a TVshow and she said to me,
look, to succeed in television,you either need to be flamboyant or authentic.
And she goes, and your problemis that you're authentic but not flamboyant
(47:06):
at all. And flamboyant has abetter chance of succeeding. Yeah. Yeah.
And I remember and she was nota Christian, and I remember asking
her, I said, do youthink that's why Christian television is so flamboyant?
And she goes, That's exactly whyChristian television. And you know,
there's a reason. I mean,I've been offered for years and years and
(47:28):
years, you know, to beon Christian television. But when you look
at the culture of Christian communicators acrossthe board, they're flamboyant yea. And
the frequency of Christian communication is inauthentic. Yeah. I know it's not popular
for me to say that, butI'm just gonna say it. And and
the level of inauthenticity that American Christianityis drawn to is terrifying. Yeah.
(47:55):
Yeah, and so I think thereason there's so much moral collapse among leaders
is that there's no room for themto be authentic when they're eighteen years old
or twenty five years old. Yeah, they have to fake it to be
promoted. And then we promote theirtalent, and we don't really care about
(48:16):
their character. We care about theirreputation. Yeah, there's a difference.
Yeah. And then when their reputationfalls, we think it's that their character
fell, but it's not. Theircharacter was always like that, yeah yeah,
and but now that yeah, andso we have to realize we love
(48:37):
that guy yesterday, Yeah, beforewe knew that. So we need to
realize we're actually drawn to a frequencyof inauthenticity that is incredibly unhealthy. Yeah,
yeah, and you know, andyeah, so I did announce I
had cancer, and I've been marriedforty years and I've never had an affair,
(49:00):
and you know, and my life, you know, in terms of
like those things, is I've beena pretty boring person. You know,
I'm not a person who drinks orsmokes or does drugs or you know,
I'm not tatted up. You know, even though I have no problems with
tattoos and stuff, I've no problemwith people who drink. I've no problem
(49:20):
like, but it isn't mean yeahand uh. You know, but before
I was a Christian, I wasa moral person. And so I look
at it and go, it's noteven your faith. It's not my faith
that kept me moral. It's thatI love my wife more than I love
myself, and I love my kidsmore than I love me. And when
you love someone else more than youlove yourself, you make decisions based on
(49:44):
their best good, not just onyour own your own best good or your
own personal pleasure. You know,I married a girl who was an orphan,
who never heard I love you fromthe age of eight to eighteen and
living in a foster home. AndI considered a privilege to love her and
I and for me like to beunfaithful to her would be such a devastating
(50:05):
statement to her that she wasn't worthyof love. I I just couldn't do
that. And you know, myson, I wanted him to know that
a man can be faithful, andhe would never believe that if I was
unfaithful. I wanted my daughter tobe able to believe that a man would
be faithful to her. And andI know I'm going more intimately in this.
But like for me, it isn'tabout my reputation and Christianity, and
(50:32):
it isn't about you know, lettingpeople down. As a pastor, it's
very personal for me. It's it'sabout Kim and Aaron and Mariah, you
know, and and yeah, Icarry the weight of it as a pastor,
I really do. But I carrythe weight of the fact that you
(50:52):
can't ever live a good enough lifefor people like you know, I mean,
I know I've been called heretic.I've had Christians set of websites where
they're gonna kill me, you know, I mean, I've been through all
of that. I've had people putthings online that where it's completely untrue.
If you live your life or theperception of others, you're just dead.
(51:15):
Yeah, you know, you haveto live your life or the people who
are closest to you, and ifyou can look at them and know that
you've been trustworthy, and if theycan look at you and respect and love
you and trust you, I feellike, you know, at the end
of the day, you're gonna beokay. Yeah. So, as we
(51:36):
kind of move towards the end ofthis conversation, there's a lot of great
stuff that's happening. I love mindShift. The book has a lot of
powerful insights, and I think it'sa great start for people who are reshaping
how they think about themselves and howthey perceive the world. But then you
also have Arena, which is aphenomenal program. I've been praying and thinking
(51:57):
about is this the right mastermind.I was a part of Masterminds for years
and years. Love them and they'veimpacted my life, and you've impacted in
my life in so many ways,and so I'm excited about what you're doing
there. How can people connect withthese things? How can they find out
more and get involved? I thinkthe easiest thing is to go to my
website, to Irwin mcmannus dot com, and or go to my Instagram account
(52:19):
and there's usually a link there forthe Arena or the different things we're doing
for the book Mindshift. Yeah.I think that the Arena is a great
place if someone is to be apart of a futuristic learning community. The
best way I could described is it'sthe university for entrepreneurs. You know,
when you go to school, youlook back and you realize the ninety percent
of what you learned in school wascompletely irrelevant to success or failure in your
(52:44):
life. Yeah. Yeah, Andand what we have to do is create
an entirely new paradigm for education.And the Arena is where adults to me
are going to learn in the future. And we're focusing on communication, leadership,
character, and big idea because Iwant to have a place we can
talk about philosophy and theology, leadershipand culture, politics, you know,
(53:07):
and and the environment, whatever theconversation was. I want to have a
place where we could bang around bigideas and and and then have a learning
community where really sharp people could behelping each other as well. So it's
probably the most exciting thing I've createdsince Mosaic. Since launching Mosaic, I
feel like the Arena is going totransform adult learning and and so I'm so
(53:29):
deeply committed Mind Shift one. Itwould just be I would really appreciate for
people to get the word out.It's I think it's going to be such
an impactful book. And the greatdanger of this book for me is that
the people who know me will go, wait a minut, wait, it's
not it's not a faith book.And but I need not only people who
(53:51):
believe in Jesus to realize this bookwill. I think it's transformative. It
will change your life. It willdestroy the internal limitations inside of inside of
your soul, and it's very excitingto me. But it's also the perfect
book to give to people who don'thave faith. And because I did it
backwards, my shift is John theBaptist, and the Genius of Jesus is
(54:14):
actually Jesus. It's like, youknow, I wrote the book the Genius
of Jesus, And I think whenpeople read a book and are impacted by
it, then they look at theauthor's back list, and for me,
it's exciting to think people will readmind Shift, which is a very fast
read. Yeah and yeah, Imean I just did the audio book in
four hours, and you know,and when they but it's like red Bull.
(54:39):
Every Shift is transformative in a person'slife. And then if people then
want to pick up more than theygo to the Genius of Jesus, which
to me is is the book thatreally opens up who Jesus is to people
who don't have faith. So I'mvery excited about it, and I think
this is going to be the mostexciting year in my life. I'm so
(55:00):
looking forward to sixty five. That'sso cool, and the best years are
yet ahead, I'm sure for you, and I just I love being able
to watch this journey that you've beenon, and I know what's spoken to
my life. I have a lotof friends that it's spoken to their life,
and so I just, you know, as a little guy over here
in northern Illinois, I just wantto say your life has been a beacon
(55:23):
of hope to those who might feela little outside the norm when it comes
to how the church views Christianity oreven how the church views community. And
I just I want to say thankyou so much for what you have meant
to not only me, but tomy generation. I'm forty, I'm forty
(55:45):
two, right, is that howold I am? We'll go with forty
two. It's close enough. AndI know that I talked to friends,
I talked to other leaders, andthey've read your books that it's not just
about like, hey, here's thecelebrity guy, but just really feeling like
there's a leader who gets us.And I just want to say thank you
for getting us and being willing tohave conversations that might not be typical and
(56:12):
that often to see you talk toIt's just so powerful. I just want
to say thank you for that.Hey, thank you so much, and
Michael, thanks so much for havingme. Once again, I want to
thank Irwin for joining us here onthe Jumble Thing podcast. What an incredible
guy and so many wonderful insights.You should go get the book. It's
out now, it's out today,and it is a short and easy read,
(56:34):
but it will change your life.It's called Mind Shift. You can
check that out and so much moreabout Irwin by going to Irwin McManus dot
com. Those links are in theepisode notes. Next week on the show,
we have a killer conversation with ShelleyHerman. She is an Emmy nominated
show biz veteran. She has abook out called My Peacocktail Secrets of an
(56:54):
NBC Page and pages on production studioin Hollywood. They keep those studios running
and she has crazy stories from herexperience in the mid to late seventies working
at NBC Burbank. We talked aboutJoan Rivers, we talked about Johnny Carson.
We talk about just all kinds ofactors and the stories of what happens
(57:20):
in Hollywood behind the scenes. Somake sure to check out that conversation next
week on the Jumble Think podcast.I want to thank you for tuning into
today's show. It means the worldto me that you would listen and hope
today's conversation has challenged your thinking andencourage you to chase your dreams. We
believe that you were created for somethingawesome, that your dreams and ideas matter,
and that you should step out intothe possibilities of what you're created to
(57:44):
do. So now it's your turnto take these lessons to get out there,
to dream big and to change theworld around you. Or Fami Lesant
(58:17):
with Tigle mont ramon Robitalism, Don'tTell, Tom war Moscovo rebiancs La Technique
Meme and Trava
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