Ellen Greenberg: Reexamining A Controversial Death

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:10):
You recorded?
We're on?
Okay.
Is your mic on?

SPEAKER_01 (00:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (00:16):
Oh.

SPEAKER_01 (00:16):
Is it?
She's just not talking.
I'm just a ways away.
Oh.

SPEAKER_00 (00:22):
I see.

SPEAKER_04 (00:23):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 (00:29):
Did you guys watch this documentary?

SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
This one?

SPEAKER_03 (00:32):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 (00:33):
Yeah.
Yeah, I watched it.

SPEAKER_01 (00:34):
Did you watch it, Marissa?
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (00:37):
I what do you think?
Um I don't um Well, I mean maybepeople should know what
documentary we're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 (00:53):
Yeah, let's let's let's start with that.

SPEAKER_00 (00:55):
So the documentary is about Ellen Greenberg.
And uh is it on Netflix orwhat's it on?
I can't remember.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03):
It's on Hulu.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
Is it Hulu?
And what do you remember whatit's titled?

SPEAKER_03 (01:08):
Death and Apartment 603.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11):
That's it.
So I did watch it.
And uh, you know, I didn't Ididn't formulate any opinions
based on that documentary.

SPEAKER_03 (01:25):
Yeah, so I s I remember I started watching it.
I watched, I think, the firstepisode.
And then I I think I had sharedwith you guys we gotta do this
case.
We have to do this case, becausethis is really weird.
This this woman was supposed hadsupposedly committed suicide and

(01:50):
she was stabbed 20 times.
Everybody's kind of in an uproarabout it.
We have to we have to look intothis.
And I didn't finish watching thedocumentary.

SPEAKER_00 (02:02):
Have you finished watching it yet?

SPEAKER_03 (02:03):
I have now.

SPEAKER_00 (02:04):
You have now, okay.

SPEAKER_03 (02:06):
And um every I swear to God, every single person I
have seen on TikTok or podcastthat I've listened to are
completely convinced that shewas murdered.

SPEAKER_00 (02:29):
Well, why don't we go through the case, we'll
describe what took place and uhwe'll get into it.

SPEAKER_03 (02:40):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (02:40):
We'll we'll we'll uh maybe we'll present both sides.
So Yes.
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (02:48):
Yes.
So Yeah.
Do we do we wanna well, it'sgonna be pretty obvious how I
feel about it, I think.
That's all right.
Um Do we want to ask Marissaright off the bat what what what
your perspective was of this?
I think that she committedsuicide.

SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
Okay.
That's not the that's not realcommon.

SPEAKER_03 (03:16):
That is not the popular opinion.
No, that's not the popularopinion.

SPEAKER_00 (03:19):
So now and I will say that just starting off, w
when you hear that a a persondies and that person's been
stabbed or has twenty stabwounds.
Um I guess you would think,well, geez, who the who the heck

(03:46):
stabbed this woman?
I mean that that sounds brutal.
And I can't imagine you know, II've never been to a scene where
where somebody has been a victimto to that sort of a death.

(04:06):
But uh we can get into it alittle bit.
So this this occurred uh, let'ssee, January 26th, I believe,
2011.

SPEAKER_03 (04:14):
Right.
A long time ago.

SPEAKER_00 (04:16):
So it's been quite a while ago.

SPEAKER_03 (04:18):
And uh and it's fresh in people's minds because
of this documentary, I think.
Yeah.
Because I had never ever heardof this case before.

SPEAKER_00 (04:29):
I hadn't either.
So and so Ellen Greenberg, she'suh she's a school teacher.
And is it uh primarilyelementary, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 (04:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (04:40):
I think it's pretty young kids.
And uh so, anyways, I don't knowif we want to start maybe with
uh the fiance, possibly.
Because that's kind of how thisyou know, when you read any
reports or maybe even with thedocumentary, it's kind of how it

(05:01):
starts.
So uh the fiance's name is isSam, Samuel, uh-huh, and I
believe it's Goldberg.

SPEAKER_04 (05:08):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
So he leaves their apartment.
They live together, they live onthe sixth floor in this
apartment complex.
It's in Philadelphia.
And he goes down to the weightroom.
He's gonna, he's gonna work out.
And so it's about uh 4.15 in theafternoon uh that he leaves, and
he works out for maybe 30, 40minutes, and he comes back to

(05:34):
the apartment.
He gets back to the apartmentabout oh, around quarter after
five, five thirty.
And he goes to enter, and thedoor's locked, and not locked as
in like deadbolt or key lock,but it's one of those swing
latch locks from the inside,kind of like what you would see

(05:55):
a lot in a uh uh in a hotel.

SPEAKER_01 (05:59):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (06:01):
So now Ellen is supposedly inside, and so he
begins to send her text messagesand he's calling her, and he's
knocking on the door, and sheshe's not coming.
He doesn't know what the heck'sgoing on.
So he goes back downstairs andhe goes to the concierge and he

(06:23):
asks the concierge if there'ssomebody that can help him get
into the room.
And I think probably initiallythe concierge thought, well,
just use your key.
And he goes, Well, no, it's notthe it's not my key.
It's not that lock, it's theswing latch lock.
It's locked from the inside.
And uh they really don't have atool.

(06:46):
So he goes back up to theapartment, still trying to
contact Ellen, no luck.
And ultimately, he breaks breaksthe door in.
And that's when he sees Ellen inthe kind of the kitchen area,
and she's in kind of a seatedposition, leaning up against a

(07:06):
cabinet, and she's covered inblood and not moving.
And so he calls 911.
He's talking to the operator, umkind of describing what he sees.
Um the operator's gonna walk himthrough some CPR, and in the
process of unzipping his or hersweatshirt, he says, Oh my god,

(07:33):
she's been stabbed.
She stabbed herself.
Maybe she fell on her knife,something to that effect.
And so at that point, becausethere's a knife stuck in her,
they don't have him uh do CPR.
So law enforcement shows up,paramedics show up, fire
department shows up, andultimately he's determined that
she's she's passed.

(07:56):
And so, probably a couple hourslater, that's when the uh
medical examiner's uminvestigator shows up, they uh
do their investigation, whichinitially was ruled a homicide.
The next day they return withthe search warrant to collect

(08:18):
more evidence, because I don'tthink it was ruled necessarily a
homicide that night.
So the next day they return.
The apartment by this time isbeing cleaned by a professional
cleaning service.
They collect whatever evidencethat they can.
Um, I think it's maybe a month,a couple weeks, something down

(08:39):
the road.
There's a meeting with themedical examiner, some law
enforcement, and uh they changetheir finding to suicide.
Now, Ellen has been stabbed 20times.
Some of those stab wounds are inthe back of her neck, some of
those are in the in the chest,and the depths of those stab
wounds are uh they kind ofrange, and they range from

(09:03):
about, and I'll say this ininches, about 0.078 inches to as
deep as 3.9, so almost fourinches deep.

SPEAKER_01 (09:14):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (09:17):
Now her family is pretty upset, and understandably
so.
Because in reality, when when Ilook at it, the investigation
was really, really poorly done.
Sure.
And so there isn't they didn'tdo a I don't think a probably a
good job of talking to people,witnesses, um, at least quickly

(09:44):
enough.
I don't think they did a goodjob of really photographing the
scene.
And I think some of that is ismaybe there was a maybe too
quick of a determination bypeople that showed up that maybe
this was in fact a suicide.
Because initially they didn'teven note that there were stabs
to the back of the neck.

(10:04):
Yeah, or to the head, I don'tthink.

SPEAKER_01 (10:07):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (10:09):
So uh that's kind of where the controversy starts.
And really why there's pressureby the parents for this thing to
be opened back up, becausethey're, of course, upset it's
been ruled a suicide.
And uh I think they're upsetwith just how the whole thing in
general was handled.

SPEAKER_03 (10:30):
Right.
And I think not only that, Ithink I think the speculation
comes that initially when theword homicide was was spoken, um
and then it's changed tosuicide, you think
automatically, well, how?
Like, how can you change youropinion on that?

(10:53):
Or how can how can you say it'sone thing and then all of a
sudden it's another thing?
Coupled with the fact that inanyone or that has a family
member that commits suicide, Ifeel like that family never
really wants to believe thattheir loved one would kill

(11:14):
themselves.
Because it's very difficult tounderstand.

SPEAKER_00 (11:18):
And I think probably the one thing that doesn't help
in this particular case is themanner of death.
I mean, we're talking about 20,and actually in a later report,
I think it was up to 22, 23 stabwounds.
That's a lot.

SPEAKER_04 (11:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (11:35):
I mean you know, we've we've probably heard of
people committing suicide uhwith a sharp instrument, such as
uh, you know, maybe cuttingtheir wrists, things of that
nature.
Uh probably some of the morecommon methods would be, you
know, they shoot themselves orthey overdose, hang themselves.

(11:57):
But 20 to 22, 23 stab wounds,that's really hard to imagine.

SPEAKER_01 (12:05):
Sure.

SPEAKER_00 (12:06):
Because of the I mean the pain that would be
involved.
So why don't we get into somereports?

SPEAKER_03 (12:16):
Sure, let's do that.
Yeah, so I think the first thingthat people um when they hear 20
stab wounds, they automaticallythink, Yeah, how could they do
this themselves?
Keep in mind, I feel like a lotof people are still coming off

(12:37):
of maybe upset or speculationcoming off of the Idaho 4
murders.
So that case was re relativelyrecent, and people were had were
hearing a lot about thosestabbings and murders, and they

(12:58):
were pretty brutal.
So then you have this case comeup and you hear 20 stab wounds,
and you think, oh my god, it's ahere we go again.
And I think maybe that's youhave to keep in mind, maybe
that's what some people are havein the back of their mind, like
as as a point of reference,possibly.

(13:18):
I don't know.
But really, you have to deep doa deep dive in to look at the
really all of what they considerstab wounds.
And in my opinion, um most ofthese stab wounds are nothing
more than superficial cuts.

SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
There are in there are.
I mean that so one thing that II want to bring up that uh I've
seen a few times is people aresaying, well, how can you stab
yourself in the back?
And I want to make clear thatnone of these stabs were really
in the back.

SPEAKER_01 (13:59):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (13:59):
Like as somebody would imagine.
Right.
It's the back of the neck andtowards the tops, kind of even
with the shoulder blades.

SPEAKER_04 (14:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (14:08):
So when they say, hey, she she had so many stab
wounds to the chest, theabdomen, to the back and neck,
it's actually the back of theneck and of the head.
So just just to make that reallyclear.
But but yeah, so I actually tooka count in a depth on on the

(14:28):
stab wounds.
And uh I'll start with the neck.
So on the neck, there was uhthree stab wounds that were 0.12
inches or or less, four of themthat were about three-quarters
of an inch, up to one inch, andthen there were three of them

(14:51):
that were over an inch deep, andthose were 1.18 inches, 2.76
inches, and 3.15 inches deep.
And so I think that's a total of10 stab wounds to the back of
the neck.
Uh she did have one to theabdomen, it was about 2.36
inches deep, and she had nine toher chest.

(15:15):
Five of those were 0.078 inches.
So that's really pretty shallow.

SPEAKER_01 (15:22):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (15:23):
Um, not deep at all.
One of those was uh just over ahalf an inch, and then there was
two, one at 1.57 inches, and oneof them about 3.93 inches.
And if you read the reports, uhthey all their measurements are
gonna be in centimeters.
I just converted it to inchesbecause a little easier for me
to to picture and understand.

(15:43):
And most people around here, Ithink, uh use inches instead of
centimeters.

SPEAKER_03 (15:48):
Except for nurses.

SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
Except for maybe nurses.
So if you're using nurses.
Do you use centimeters?
Always.
Oh.

SPEAKER_03 (15:54):
We measure wounds in centimeters.
You know, when you're having ababy, you measure dilate
dilation in centimeters.

SPEAKER_00 (16:02):
It's just Well, I can switch them all to
centimeters.

SPEAKER_03 (16:06):
No, no, it's fine.
I have them all written writtendown in centimeters.
It's fine.
For the for the lay person, it'sprobably easier to understand
inches.
Just because you're morefamiliar with that.

SPEAKER_00 (16:15):
But so I mean, there is that that's a lot of stabs.

SPEAKER_04 (16:19):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 (16:21):
So uh now one of those stabs, uh only one of them
was fatal.
And that was uh the one to thechest that was uh 3.9 inches
deep.
And I think that that one didthat puncture her lung?
The fatal one?
I believe it might have.

SPEAKER_03 (16:40):
I wrote it down here if I can find out where I wrote
it.
Um it punctured the aortic archand the upper lobe of the left
lung.
So yes.

SPEAKER_00 (16:56):
Okay.
And then the there was one deepstab wound to the back of the
neck that um there there's somecontroversy surrounding because
uh during the at least one ofthe autopsies, they noticed that
there was some damage to aspinal cord.

unknown (17:12):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (17:12):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (17:13):
And that's kind of up for debate on what caused
that.
But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (17:19):
So basically it said uh that it was seven centimeters
deep, which was about threeinches or so deep, correct?

SPEAKER_00 (17:30):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (17:31):
Approximately.
Um between the second and thirdvertebrae.
Which it may have entered thesubdura of the spinal cord, but
it didn't actually sever ortouch the spinal cord.

SPEAKER_00 (17:49):
And so some people think that maybe if it hit the
spinal cord that that personwould either lose feeling or
become completely incapacitated.

SPEAKER_03 (17:58):
Right.
Right.
And that that that's why youhave to know that a lot of these
people who are reporting on itor podcasting on it are saying,
well, she it went into thespinal cord.
Well, technically it didn't.

SPEAKER_00 (18:13):
No.

SPEAKER_03 (18:13):
It did not.
So um, I mean, that's why youjust really have to look at the
actual reports and and know whatyou're reading to uh be able to
understand it, I feel like.

SPEAKER_00 (18:29):
So I think maybe we should get into what what the
arguments are.

unknown (18:35):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (18:36):
And uh and so I I do have some concerns myself um if
I'm gonna argue that this was uhwas a homicide.

SPEAKER_03 (18:48):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (18:50):
And uh my first one has to do with the timeline.
And I kind of want to look atthis because I thought this was
uh actually interesting.
So I'm looking at the at thetimes because they have times
that are known, such as when aperson uses their key card, when
they make phone calls, when theymake text messages.
Uh there's some timestamps onalso some video.

(19:13):
So we we kind of know, at leastwhen Ellen was alive, uh when,
of course, she's making phonecalls or text messages.
And uh we know some of um herfiance's movements because of
one witnesses talk to him likethe concierge, and then also
through video surveillance.

SPEAKER_04 (19:34):
Sure.

SPEAKER_00 (19:36):
So where my concern is is well, a couple.
So the last known uh, and Ithink it's a text message uh
from Ellen, where we know thatshe'd be alive is about 3 41

(19:57):
p.m.
And that was a text like a textexchange that she was having, I
believe, with a coworker or afriend.
And I believe those textmessages were maybe about I I
think the the friend wasexpecting or something to that
effect.
So there's nothing between 341and 451.

(20:18):
And 451, let's see, that's uhthat's when he leaves to go down
to the well that's uh walks intothe gym.
Yes, that's when he walks intothe gym.

unknown (20:30):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (20:30):
And then uh at 5.30, uh the fiance is on
surveillance, leaving the gymand walking towards the
concierge desk.
And then at uh 531, that's whenhe's on video getting into the
into the elevator.
And then he's seen again at 610leaving the lobby elevator and

(20:53):
walking back towards theconcierge desk.
So um that's about oh, 40minutes that he would have
probably been up on the sixthfloor, at least the apartment
door.
Um now when he made the 911call, where was he at?

SPEAKER_02 (21:15):
He I I don't know.
Go ahead.
He didn't make the 911 calluntil after he had gone into the
apartment.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (21:22):
Okay.
So where would he have beenlocated when he made the 911?

SPEAKER_02 (21:27):
Standing in the doorway.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (21:29):
Probably standing in the doorway on the sixth floor,
correct?

SPEAKER_03 (21:34):
Well, I don't necessarily know if he's in the
doorway because he's alreadyseen her.

SPEAKER_00 (21:37):
Would he have been on the sixth floor, though, of
the apartment when he makes a911 call?

SPEAKER_03 (21:43):
I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 (21:45):
And the only reason I ask is because he's describing
the scene of what he's seeing,and he's seeing Ellen, you know,
Ellen.
Right.
I mean you can hear him Yeah.
I mean, you can hear him talk tothe 911 operator about oh my
God, she's so at 633 is when thevideo, and this is according to

(22:08):
the their timeline, 6.33 p.m.
fiance on surveillance gettingon an elevator.
633, 911 call made.
And at least looking at thetimeline, um, and actually I'll
back up a little bit.
631, according to the timeline,it says fiance on surveillance

(22:30):
video walking through theapartment building a lobby while
talking on his cell phone.
So 631, he's on his cell phonein the lobby, 633 seen getting
onto the elevator, and at thesame time, he's making this
phone call.

SPEAKER_03 (22:47):
Okay, now I do have to stop you there because I did
listen to um uh it was a podcastsaying that in the report, I
believe it's in the report, orwhat should be known is that
there could there is a um afour-minute window of variance.

(23:09):
Okay.
So potentially the video camfootage could be a different
time within four minutes.
Does it have a lag?
Yeah.
So that's one thing to keep inmind.
So he may have made that 911phone call in the apartment.

(23:30):
You're seeing him get on theelevator at the same time, but
technically it might be fourminutes later, up to four
minutes later, that you'reactually so there could be that
discrepancy.
So I just wanted to point thatout.
And that could explain whyyou're having you know
difficulty with that.

SPEAKER_00 (23:46):
So that that was my uh issue number one.
I'm gonna kind of walk throughthis as uh as the case kind of
goes along.

SPEAKER_01 (23:55):
Sure.

SPEAKER_00 (23:55):
So the next thing he does is he does he kicks in the
door or breaks down the doorbecause remember it's got that
swing latch.
And when you look at the thephotographs, the latch does
appear that it's been dislodged,correct?
Yes.
But if he forced the door openand the latch itself doesn't

(24:23):
break, wouldn't part of it bedislodged from either the door
or the wall?

SPEAKER_03 (24:31):
No.
I I'm gonna say no.

SPEAKER_00 (24:34):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (24:35):
Because if you look in those pictures, those screws
are so loose.
Yes, it's still technicallyattached, but they're so loose
that if he's banging that doorand that latch comes this way,
it's gonna get over to a point,it's loose enough to that where
that other side is going to, hecan unlatch it.

SPEAKER_00 (24:57):
You think so?

SPEAKER_03 (24:58):
Yeah, that's what that's that's my speculation of
it.
I'm like, okay, so he's wiggledwiggled it loose enough to
where, like if he's banging onit and and it's going back and
forth.
Because there's, I mean, you canopen those doors so far.
If he's getting that part loosewith the screws and it's now

(25:18):
coming inward a little bit orwiggled out loose a little bit,
that other portion is gonna it'sgonna open the door wide enough
to you can get your hand inthere and unlock it.
That's what I believe happened.

SPEAKER_00 (25:30):
See, and I don't know.
I just uh I was looking at thatpicture and I was like, you
know, that is a good point.
The latch is still screwed tothe wall.
It is loose.
I mean, obviously the screws aresticking out, but it's still
attached there, still attachedto the door.
And I thought, man, you wouldthink if you really put your
shoulder into it that one ofthose pieces is gonna go flying

(25:52):
through the room, and butthey're still attached.
I really struggle with that.

SPEAKER_03 (25:57):
Well, the the con there's so many reports
supposedly was what was said,but supposedly the concierge
said, well, I guess you canbreak it down, but you're gonna
have to pay for the damages.
So maybe he's thinking, okay,well, I got it loose enough,
maybe I can unlatch it now, youknow, and where he doesn't have

(26:19):
to do so much damage as to it.
I really feel like it's looseenough he could unlock, he could
get his hand in there and unlockit.

SPEAKER_00 (26:26):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
And also in the early reportswhen he's talking to law
enforcement, supposedly he hassecurity or somebody with him,
and they later find out thatthere was nobody with him.
He's by himself.
And so that leads to uh somepeople believe it maybe he lied.

SPEAKER_03 (26:45):
There again, I'm gonna I feel like I'm you're
gonna say one thing and I'mgonna say kind of the opposite
thing.
And I think that's kind of howour conversation should go, just
to have two points of view ofwhy you think one thing and why
I think another.
At one point, his neighbor waswith him.

(27:06):
His neighbor had heard someruckus outside in the hallway.
And his neighbor came out andsaid, Hey, but what's what's
going on?
What you doing?
He's like, She locked me out.
I can't get in.
And he's like, But you use yourkey.
He's like, Well, I can't, Ican't use my key.
It's not the key, it's thedeadbolt.
And so the neighbor had actuallycome out and seen him and talked

(27:27):
to him as he was trying to getinto the apartment and trying to
call Ellen to get in.
So, in all those conversations,do you think possibly he would
have said, Well, ask so-and-so.
He was with me, meaning theneighbor.
And somehow though, they getconstrued, the information gets
construed and lost intranslation, and that's really

(27:49):
what he was talking about.
It wasn't the concierge.
Yes, he went down and asked theconcierge concierge for advice.
He told him to break the doordown.
I feel like some of thatinformation was getting
misconstrued in the crossfire.

SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
Okay.
Well, there's some otherquestions.

SPEAKER_03 (28:11):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (28:12):
And now we're going to get into the scene.
So he makes his 911 call.
Did you listen to the wholecall, by the way?

SPEAKER_03 (28:17):
I did.
And and that's another thingthat I have a problem with with
the documentary.

SPEAKER_00 (28:22):
Okay.
What's your problem with that?

SPEAKER_03 (28:24):
They didn't put the full 911 call on.

SPEAKER_00 (28:27):
What part did they miss?

SPEAKER_03 (28:30):
Um, I feel like they missed quite a bit of it.

SPEAKER_00 (28:33):
Yeah.
Well, the the 911 call, I don'tremember what it was in a
documentary.
I did re-listen to the 911 calltoday.
And it's kind of in two partsbecause the initial when he
initially calls 911, the firstoperator he's talking to isn't
the one that asked him toperform CPR because he was
actually transferred to, Ibelieve, dispatch for EMS.

(28:55):
And the EMS is the one thatasked him if he knew how to
perform CPR, which he said hedid not.
And so they're going to give himinstruction on how to do so.
And this is where anotherargument comes in.

SPEAKER_01 (29:12):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (29:13):
Because he's standing at least near.
And I don't know if he's in thedoorway or if he's in the
apartment standing over top ofher, if he's knelt next to her.
I don't know what what hislocation is when he's actually
on the phone speaking to 911.
Um but as he's giveninstruction, and he's talking
about how he's struggling tounzip her.

(29:36):
It's like a zipped-up hoodie.
And then he notices the knife.
So uh one of the arguments iswell, why didn't he see the
knife?
I mean, obviously, there's thisbig old stake knife.
Now, I will say some people aresaying butcher knife.
And I will say it is absolutelynot a butcher knife.

(29:57):
This is like a stake knife.

SPEAKER_01 (29:58):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (30:00):
And they want to know what how could he not see
the steak knife sticking out ofnot exactly the middle of her
chest, but just off of thebreastbone.
A big old knife.
You know how how how would henot see that?
Because it doesn't say anythingto dispatch until after he's
messing around with her zipper,and then he's like, he says, Oh

(30:23):
my god, she stabbed herself.
And then he transitions to Ithink she fell on a knife.

SPEAKER_03 (30:33):
Mm-hmm.
So Okay, so uh how I'm going todescribe how that happened or
why he's talking like that,because he was he was there was
a lot of judgment going on withthat 911 call.
And everybody can say hindsight2020 and how they would sound

(30:55):
and what they would do, but whenyou're in a panic situation, I
think sometimes you get tunnelvisioned.

SPEAKER_02 (31:03):
And I think maybe and he was already annoyed that
she was not answering the door,she was not answering text, you
know.
So he's already worked up.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (31:17):
I feel like he's, you know, as you walk into a
situation like that, you'relike, what in the heck has just
happened here?
And he's trying to process thesurroundings.
He's on the phone with 911.
He's trying to listen todirections to what she's saying
on the 911 call.

(31:38):
He's also trying to figure out,like, what in the hell has just
happened here?
He's seeing a pool, a pool ofblood on the floor.
He's not really knowing what'sgoing on.
His and also I have to take intoconsideration maybe how her body
was positioned because she hadlong dark hair.

(32:03):
In how I believe this happened,it could be a possibility that
her hair was flung forward andher hair was covered, like she
had long hair and it wascovering her chest.
And she was slumped over, kindof mostly on her back.
Her shoulders and her head wereup against the cabinet.

(32:23):
911 is telling her to expose herchest.
So initially, I'm thinking,okay, maybe he's going from the
bottom up and trying to, like,and it's not going.
And he's like, what in theworld?
And so if he's trying to flipher shirt up from the belly up,
he's covering up that knife.
He's not really paying attentionto it.

(32:44):
So he's trying to figure outwhat in the heck's going on.
And then he notices, oh, okay,it's zipper, okay.
And then he's like, oh my God,there's the knife.
Like, I don't know thatnecessarily he was focusing on
that part.
I think there's so much going onthat maybe he does I he truly
doesn't see it.

(33:05):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (33:07):
I'm trying to picture it too.

SPEAKER_03 (33:09):
So I'm just trying to speculate from one point of
view and and how this couldpossibly been a suicide.
That's how I want to look at it.
Because that's that is 96% ofpeople, maybe even more, 99% of
people think it's a it's ahomicide.

(33:29):
I want to view it from the pointwhere it maybe was a suicide.

SPEAKER_00 (33:34):
Okay.
Now so far as the scene itself,I mean the the apartment isn't
destroyed.
However, the butcher block istipped over.
It's tipped over.

SPEAKER_03 (33:48):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (33:48):
And uh, you know, something else they noticed
during the autopsy is there issome bruising on her body.
Now, some of that bruising isold, um and some of it maybe not
not so old.
And so one could maybe make anargument that with one, there's

(34:11):
she's covered in stab wounds.
She has bruising on her body,butcher blocks knocked over,
that this very well could havebeen, even though it's confined
to a small area, maybe a sceneof a struggle.
Like maybe there was some sortof an argument, and the argument
had to do with the fact that uhshe had made reference of

(34:31):
quitting her job or whatever thecase may be, and uh maybe this
was who knows what happened.
Uh a fight gets out of control,and uh he winds up stabbing her.
Who knows?
Maybe she had the knife firstand and he took it away from
her, but you know, in just arage.

SPEAKER_03 (34:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (34:54):
He just went at her.

SPEAKER_03 (34:55):
First thing I wanted to ask is where are the bruises
and how big are they?
Because I feel like I saw one onher wrist, like maybe the size
of a dime.

SPEAKER_00 (35:06):
Yeah, there was some on her neck, too.

SPEAKER_03 (35:08):
Um, and one maybe I think it said by her ribs or
something like that.

SPEAKER_00 (35:13):
Sure.
And I think on her legs, but Iknow one of the bruises that
they pointed out was what lookedlike some light bruising on her
neck, like maybe at one pointsomeone had grabbed her neck and
and was possibly choking her.
And that come from let me findthe doctor's name.

SPEAKER_03 (35:29):
Um I I think I saw I saw the bruising on her neck,
and to me it didn't look like agrass, like um yeah, I don't.
I think that would be a stretch.
Oops, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 (35:41):
And it might have been this uh this Ross that
maybe brought that up becausethis uh this was a medical
examiner or Dr.
Wayne Ross.
Oh, he's a specialist inforensic pathology and uh
neuropathy.
I am not even gonna try and sayneuropathy.
Yes, that's it.
So but uh but he does point outthat you know one that there's a

(36:06):
there's a big gash on her head.
Of course, there's there's allthese stab wounds in her.
But then there's and this is I'mjust gonna read this right from
his report.
Ross also observed marks andbruises on the victim's neck
consistent with strangulation.

SPEAKER_03 (36:25):
See, and I I don't agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 (36:29):
Maybe they like weird things in the bedroom.

SPEAKER_00 (36:33):
I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 (36:34):
That's a possibility.

SPEAKER_00 (36:35):
I'm not gonna go that far.
But um that just leads to, ofcourse, with the butcher block
being knocked over, and maybethere's this bruising on her
body, on her neck.
You know, the there's even uhsome argument that has to do
with if we're getting back tothe scene itself, how the blood,

(37:00):
I mean how how she's bled,because some of the blood looks
like it's going sideways or inan upward direction, which
wouldn't be consistent witheither standing or sitting in
the upward direction.

SPEAKER_03 (37:12):
Okay, well, yeah, I'm gonna dispute that a little
bit also, because okay.
If she's got if she if shestarts doing this to herself and
she's got a little bit ofbleeding and she's got a drop
that lands on her nose orwherever this started from, and
then she at some point tilts herhead, that blood drop is gonna

(37:37):
run down as if she's layingsideways or on her back.
It it the head is notstationary, the head is very
mobile.
So if you have a drop that landssomewhere and and she's turning
her head, and say she's crankedher head so she's trying to do
this, and she's got her headtilted, that drop is gonna run

(37:59):
down sideways.
It's a no-brainer.
Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 (38:04):
Okay.
Marissa looked like she wasgonna say something.

SPEAKER_02 (38:07):
Yeah, I was doing the same thing.
It's like if you're putting yourhand back more towards your
shoulders, I mean you kind of doput your head back a bit.
Like I don't yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (38:17):
I mean, I mean, I'm going like if I'm going like
this, I'm tilt, I'm yeah, I'mtilting my head this way.
The drops here already, and andI'm it's it's gonna run this
way.

SPEAKER_00 (38:29):
Okay.
So in looking at so I'm tryingto think, what what are some
possible ways that all thesestab wounds could have happened?
Um and back to the wholestruggle and stuff.
So let's say um if you canpicture this, they're in this
fight and one of them has aknife.
Now I don't know if it'd be it'sin her hand, it's in his hand,
but somebody's got this knife.

(38:50):
And they're wrestling, they'removing all over.
Because one of the arguments issome of these stabs are not very
deep.

SPEAKER_04 (38:58):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (38:59):
Now, is it possible that during all this commotion,
they're grappling uh over thisknife, that that's when these
injuries would have happened toher, at least the the
superficial or the shallow?
It's not that necessarily thathe is attempting to stab, but in
the course of wrestling of thisknife that it you know grazes

(39:20):
her head or it whacks her on theback of the neck a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 (39:25):
Or so Marissa, what was one thing that wasn't found
on her defensive wounds?
There was no defensive wounds.

SPEAKER_02 (39:37):
So your fat your argument that they're that
they're fighting over a knife islike you talked about the depth
of the stab wounds.
Okay.
How long were them?
Were they like were the depth?
Because if if as you talk asthey're grappling over this
knife, like I'm thinking that ifthe knife is hitting either of

(39:57):
them in any way, that it's moreof a dragging and not a
stabbing.

SPEAKER_00 (40:02):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (40:02):
So I agree with that, too.

SPEAKER_00 (40:05):
Three of them on the back of her neck.
Well, one of them was.078inches.
So that's um what a sixteenth ofan inch.
So that's the thing.

SPEAKER_03 (40:17):
They're like little tiny puncture.
Like they're t tiny punctures.

SPEAKER_00 (40:21):
Two more of them are 0.12.
Also, that's about maybe aneighth, pr pretty shallow.
Uh now there was four of them onthe back of the neck, they're
about three-quarters of an inch.
So um if I'm gonna use somethingthat's three-quarters of an
inch, we'll say like one jointof the finger, maybe.

SPEAKER_04 (40:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (40:43):
Maybe a little more than that, uh, depending on the
size of the hand.
But then there was also three ofthem that were pretty deep.
So one of these, the shallowestof the the three deep ones on
the back of the neck was justover an inch.
Another one was two andthree-quarters of an inch, and
the deepest on the back of theneck was three inches deep.

(41:04):
I mean, that's that's prettydeep.

SPEAKER_03 (41:06):
Sure.
Okay, so a couple things I wantto ask you.

SPEAKER_00 (41:09):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (41:10):
Or can I maybe maybe I'll ask Marissa.
If Mike is Mike and you arearguing in the kitchen and he's
stabbing you.

SPEAKER_00 (41:20):
Oh no, if we're arguing, she's stabbing me.

SPEAKER_03 (41:22):
Okay.
Okay, so then let me ask you.
This would be more appropriatesince you're kind of on the
defensive about this.
Uh if Marissa's a stabbing atstabbing you, are you going to
stay in the same spot?
Are you gonna maybe try to runaway from her and try to get
away from her?

SPEAKER_00 (41:42):
Well, it depends.
Probably the first thing I'mgonna do is try and keep her
from stabbing me.
So I'm gonna maybe have a holdof her hands or or her wrists or
or try and control her to keepher from from stabbing me.
And that, you know, if the knifeis in her hand, of course, I'm
gonna focus on her hand.

SPEAKER_03 (42:00):
Sure.
I I just feel like in thissituation, if you have somebody
stabbing you 20 times, that arepretty superficial.
To me, it's in in relativelylike this, it is the same area.
Like you're in the same spot.
How can a person stab somebodyelse that many times in the same

(42:22):
area with no movement from theperson being stabbed?
There's no way.
Logically, there's no way thatI'm gonna stand there and have
you stab me 11 times in the samevicinity.
It's not it's not logicallygoing to happen.

(42:42):
I'm going to move away.
I'm going to move away from you.
You're not going to get the samearea 11 times.
And relatively the same depth.

SPEAKER_00 (42:52):
No, I will say that she was up against the counters.
And if you looked at thepicture, that's kind of in a
corner.
So it's like an L-shapedcounter.
And she's kind of in the cornerof this.

SPEAKER_03 (43:02):
So, you know, but there's no possible.

SPEAKER_00 (43:04):
She's trapped.
There's nowhere for her to go.

SPEAKER_03 (43:06):
There's not one defensive wound on her hand.
You think if he's stabbing herin the back, there's or in the
back of the neck, there's notshe's not going to be reaching
back to stop him.
There's going to be wounds onher arms, her hands, wherever,
because she's not going to she'snot even going to keep her head
in the same spot to let somebodystab her that many times in the

(43:28):
same area.
It it's it's just not gonnahappen, people.
I want people to think aboutthis logically, because it just
is not going to happen.

SPEAKER_02 (43:38):
She's gonna be pushing, she's gonna be
scratching, she's gonna be doingwhatever she can to get away.

SPEAKER_03 (43:46):
Yeah.
And or to stop him.
Here's the other thing I want tobring up.
And maybe I'm jumping the gun onyou.
No, go ahead.
Is is the blood pattern.

SPEAKER_00 (43:54):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (43:56):
Where was all the blood?
The blood was all of the bloodwas contained to the countertop
and below.
There was one, maybe two dropsof blood on the countertop.
I know there was one drop forsure that I saw on the
countertop.
And it was a round drop.

(44:18):
The other blood, there was somesmeared on the bottom of the
cupboards.
There was a pool of blood on thefloor, and there was also
droplets of blood on hersweatpants on the front of her
legs.

SPEAKER_00 (44:30):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (44:32):
Tell me how there's no other blood anywhere in that
apartment, and how the blood wasnot in a spray pattern or a what
do you call it?
Um, casting off pattern.

SPEAKER_00 (44:48):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (44:48):
How is that possible?
If she was being stabbed,wouldn't there be blood on the
knife and he's coming up with aknife?
Wouldn't there be some type ofcast off?
Wouldn't there be some kind ofof those elongated blood marks
on the walls somewhere, even thecountertop?

SPEAKER_00 (45:07):
Sure.
Now there would be cast-off ifhe's making like big long, you
know, swings.

SPEAKER_03 (45:12):
Sure.

SPEAKER_00 (45:12):
But if he's just making these really short jabs,
um I mean, I still feel thatthat would be cast off.

SPEAKER_03 (45:24):
I I agree.
I still feel like there would besome.

SPEAKER_00 (45:27):
So if we're talking about the stab, you know,
something else is if you look atsuicide, I mean stabbing is
pretty rare.
Now cutting is not rare.
But stabbing, especiallymultiple times, is pretty rare.
A lot of people if we're gonnacommit suicide, I wouldn't
imagine that they'd want tocontinually stab themselves 20
times uh in in order to do that.

(45:48):
Um so that seems weird.
And one of the uh this Dr.
Welch, who's another one that uhthat looked at this case
afterwards, this is during, Ithink, maybe a lawsuit between
the family and the medicalexaminer's office when they're
trying to get this changed, atleast to undetermined.
Um they pointed out that a lotof times in a stabbing, when it

(46:11):
is suicide, that the victim willtypically remove their clothing
first.
And the fact that it's notuncommon if someone's gonna stab
themselves where they're gonnahave some shallow ones, but
there was several deep.

SPEAKER_03 (46:28):
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
I I want to go back to theblood.

SPEAKER_04 (46:34):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (46:35):
Um so in my theory, how would Okay, if she's
standing up being stabbed, howwould there be perfectly round
drops land on the front part ofher sweatpants?

SPEAKER_00 (46:48):
Well, unless maybe those uh those round ones I
mean, happened after she wasfinally dead on the floor and
they dripped off her head ontoher pants.

SPEAKER_03 (47:02):
But it according to the picture, her head wasn't
that high.
Her I mean, she was she was forthe most part lying on her back
except for her shoulders and herhead.
My theory is is the only the theonly way, and I agree with
somebody another report that Iread is that the only way those
could happen is if she hadalready, if she was doing the

(47:24):
stabbing herself seated, like ina seated position.
She was already see sitting downor on the ground.
I I just don't understand howthey would land perfectly round.
If she's standing up and she'sbeing stabbed and she's getting
blood on her pants, they'regonna be elongated and like like
it's dripping down and it'sgonna be.

SPEAKER_00 (47:45):
Well, let me ask you this.
Why would she stab herself?

SPEAKER_03 (47:48):
Um, well, I feel like she stabbed herself because
she was in an um ambientpsychosis.

SPEAKER_00 (47:56):
What do you mean?

SPEAKER_03 (47:58):
Or an ambient coma.

SPEAKER_00 (48:00):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (48:01):
Um, she was going to therapist, she got a new
prescription of colonopin andambien.
And first thing I want to say ispeople go look those drugs up
and go look up the side effectsof those drugs.
Mind you, she was not on thesedrugs for a long time.
These were newly prescribeddrugs.
Um, and the side effects of bothof these are suicidal

(48:23):
tendencies.
It is known fact that ambiencauses what they call an ambient
coma.
People don't people do thingsand they don't even remember
doing things.

SPEAKER_00 (48:36):
Now they did talk to her psychiatrist, who she did
meet with three times.
And the psychiatrist did statethat uh, you know, she never
really exhibited any signs ofsuicidal thought.
She never brought it up.
Uh, she never told any of herfriends that she would ever even
thought about suicide.

SPEAKER_03 (48:55):
Right.
She did completely express thatshe was very anxious.
She had an anxiety disorder.
Um and also in the report thatthe her and her therapist also
talked about another medicalcondition she had.
However, they didn't disclosethat other medical condition.
So, you know, there we don'tknow.

(49:15):
Um I suppose only her familyknows.
Maybe, maybe they don't either.
Um there is some speculationthat maybe that other medical
condition that she had waspossibly anorexia.
We don't know.
Or maybe her other medicalcondition was some form of
mental illness.

(49:39):
We don't know.

SPEAKER_00 (49:43):
I don't know.
I don't know you wouldn't.

SPEAKER_03 (49:46):
So if you have a ment if you have a mental
disorder, if you have um whoknows, schizophrenia.
Um some kind of psychosis.
Um it is noted that she did askSam, would you still love me if
I was crazy?

(50:07):
Like there were severalinstances instances where she
expressed that she was veryanxious and thought she might be
crazy.
Her coworkers um said that shewas highly anxious over stuff
and she really obsessed overcertain things.

(50:31):
In fact, the one co-worker whowas helping, so school got out
early that day because they'reexpecting a big snowstorm.
So um one coworker walks her outto her car and helps her scoop
her scoop her car out and getthe snow off her windshield, and
she was obsessing about gradingpapers, and grades were due for

(50:51):
these students and um going onand on and on about it before
they left the school parkinglot.
And he says that then by thetime he got that they both left
and he got to his own apartmentcomplex or wherever he lived in
the parking lot, she was callinghim again and obsessing about it

(51:13):
and talking to him about it overthe phone.
She gets off the phone with him,he calls another coworker that's
her friend, and says, Your boy,your girlfriend is nuts.
She's crazy.
And so whatever he heard on thephone from her, he's calling the
coworker and like, this yourfriend is freaking nuts.

(51:36):
Like she is going on and onabout this.
So it's not I feel like in thedocumentary when they're
interviewed, you know, peopleare gonna s not speak poorly of
the deceased.
They're just not.

(51:56):
I have a feeling.
They're gonna be respectful,they're not gonna say a whole
lot of what their true feelingswere, and they're gonna leave
part of that hush-hush.
Because they don't want to speakill of somebody that's gone.
But behind her back, they werethey were talking about her how
how cuckoo she was.

SPEAKER_00 (52:14):
Well, I do have one more thing that uh was noticed
in the apartment, at least atthe scene, that you can actually
pick up from the few photographsthat were taken.
And that was in one of herhands, she was holding a towel.
And on that towel, there's notvery much blood.

(52:36):
So had she been one holding thetowel while she's stabbing
herself, and mind you that a lotof these stab wounds are in
multiple directions, um,especially the ones on the back
of her neck.
Um how could she have stabbedherself in all these directions
while also grasping at a toweland not getting any blood on a

(52:59):
towel?
Like there was almost no bloodon this towel she's holding on
to.

SPEAKER_03 (53:07):
I I guess I don't know.
I I don't know when she grabbedthe towel.

SPEAKER_00 (53:12):
So that's just that was just one other thing that I
saw that I thought, well, thatis kind of odd.
She's holding this towel,there's hardly any blood on it.
And if she was holding thistowel, she was stabbing herself.

SPEAKER_03 (53:22):
I did notice that in in the picture, um her hand was
cupped, her right hand.
And it and it was there wasblood on the inside of her palm.

SPEAKER_00 (53:35):
See, I didn't see that.

SPEAKER_03 (53:37):
And so it did look like it would correlate with her
stabbing herself, and there'skind of blood pooled in her the
palm of her hand.

SPEAKER_00 (53:47):
So you're convinced, absolutely convinced, that she
killed herself.

SPEAKER_03 (53:51):
A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 (53:52):
And Marissa, you're convinced?

SPEAKER_03 (53:54):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (53:56):
So am I.

unknown (53:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (53:58):
Actually, so am I.
Um I know I argue that this mayhave been foul play or she may
have been murdered, but to behonest, I I actually from the
very beginning when I read this,never believed that.
I never I always believe that atleast looking it at everything

(54:21):
that I saw, that she did in factstab herself.

SPEAKER_03 (54:26):
I realize that's very difficult for people to
comprehend.

SPEAKER_00 (54:31):
But I think it's important that maybe I explain
why.
Yeah, yeah.
Why I think that.

SPEAKER_03 (54:36):
Yeah, you kind of heard snippets of Marissa and I
trying to like defend why wethink that.
But what are some other thingsthat you kind why you came to
that conclusion?

SPEAKER_00 (54:46):
I'm just gonna walk, I'm gonna try and walk through
this from beginning to end onwhat I saw that led me to
believe that she more likelystabbed herself than she was
actually stabbed.
And I will start with thatbroken door latch.
So if you go to a hotel room oran apartment complex where it

(55:09):
has a swing latch, and you lookat how that operates, there is
it's kind of like a a taperedgroove.
And so it's there's a biggertaper at the very base where
that thing is screwed to thewall, and it narrows out pretty
quick to where there's no taperat all.
And that's actually when thatswings over, and there's that

(55:32):
ball that's attached to thedoor, and that's kind of where
it comes, because that that isin a loop, the the part that's
attached to a wall.
It's this long loop.
And that ball goes through thecenter of that loop, and then as
the door opens up, it tracks onthe opposite side of that loop
and then stops it, because it'sbasically it's it's around that

(55:55):
ball.
And so it then, of course, itwould stop the door.
If that's dislodged the way thatit is, and now it's gapped about
a quarter inch away from thewall.
What it also does is the portionthat that ball starts to travel
through and then goes throughthat loop and then actually

(56:17):
engages or grabs the loop as thedoor is open and stops it with
that space in there.
It doesn't, what it does insteadnow is let's say he banged into
that a few times, and every timehe bangs the door open and it it
the loop is engaged, it swingsthe loop out, the loop grabs the

(56:40):
ball, the door stops.
As you pull the door shut, itactually also pulls that steel
loop in back towards the door.
So if he bangs into that dooronce, it dislodges that loop
where it's bolted to the walloutward and he pulls the door
closed, so therefore it startsto swing that loop in.

(57:04):
The next time he opens thatdoor, the ball isn't gonna go
through kind of that taperedopening of the loop to where it
would engage.

SPEAKER_01 (57:12):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (57:13):
Now when he opens it, it's gonna hit more of the
closed loop part where that ballwon't fit through it.
So now it's just actually gonnafling that loop open to the
side.
It's not gonna engage the ballthat's attached to the door, and
the door is gonna open.

SPEAKER_04 (57:28):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (57:29):
So that's why I think that you know, did I find
it first odd that it didn't ripthat thing off and fling it
across the room or stay attachedto the ball that's attached to
the door?
I did at first.
But then when I got to lookingat it, I thought, well, if you
just look at how mechanicallythat works, once that's
dislodged and it's spacedagainst the wall, it's not gonna

(57:50):
engage the way it's supposed to.
So it's just gonna fling itopen.
You know, the loop's gonna swingopen to the side around to the
wall.
The ball's not gonna engage itwhatsoever, and the door's just
gonna open because it didn'tlatch.

SPEAKER_03 (58:03):
Yeah, I feel like I came to that conclusion of
having a lifetime of loose andscrews and broken apparatuses
that are about so it's just it'snot gonna operate properly.

SPEAKER_00 (58:14):
So it's it's very likely that that's what
happened, at least when I lookat it.
And I think that if if there wasa video where they would have
tried to latch that and theyopened the door, you're gonna
see that that ball is actuallygonna engage the portion of that
loop that isn't big enough forthe ball to actually slide
through and lock itself throughthe loop, it's just gonna push

(58:36):
the loop open.

SPEAKER_01 (58:37):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (58:37):
So that was one.

SPEAKER_01 (58:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (58:40):
Uh the second is I'm getting to thinking about, okay,
so when are they saying thatmaybe the struggle took place if
it was a homicide?
Would it be, were they in theapartment fighting and it
occurred?
Or are they saying that he waspissed off?

(59:01):
He busted open the door and thenhe stabbed her.
So I'll start with in theapartment itself.
One, they did interview theneighbors, the neighbors never
ever heard any sort of yelling,screaming, fighting, anything
ever from that room.
Not just on that occasion, butfrom any other previous
occasions.

SPEAKER_01 (59:22):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (59:22):
And I realize that some of these apartments are
probably fairly soundproof.
And I'm guessing that if youhave your TV on, maybe the noise
doesn't come out.
But if someone's stabbing you,you're not at TV volume level.

SPEAKER_02 (59:37):
No.

SPEAKER_00 (59:38):
You are screaming for your life.
Yeah.
And I guarantee you there is notan apartment that is so
soundproof that that noisedoesn't go through a wall or
through a door.

SPEAKER_01 (59:49):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (59:50):
Second, if he had busted the door open and now
he's pissed off because he waslocked out of the apartment
because a prior argument andthen he stabbed her, now you
have an open door in Screen.
Screaming, uh that's definitelydefinitely gonna neighbors are
gonna notice that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:06):
And there's just not enough time, logically.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:10):
Second, or I guess not a second, this is probably
third or fourth.
So they're engaged, let's sayit's a stabbing, and they're
engaged into this fight.
He's not a small guy, and mindyou, he's he's into sports, he's
into golf.
And if you look at pictures ofhim, he's not this granny little

(01:00:31):
dwarf.
He's a fair amount larger thanshe is.
And I think I saw her height andweight in here.
I think she's like 5'7, maybe135.
So she's not a real big gal.
He's much larger than that.
And if he's stabbing her, evenif she's trying to wrist lock

(01:00:52):
him and hold onto his wrists,excuse me, those stabs are gonna
be much deeper than they are.
There's probably not gonna bereally any superficial stab
wounds.
And actually, it's probablygonna be more violent of a
scene, like you were talkingabout cast off before.

(01:01:12):
There's probably gonna be castoff because at some point, if
she's wrist grabbing his wrist,he's gonna try and jerk his hand
away.
And if he's already stabbed herand there's any blood anywhere
on her, when he's she's got ahold of his wrist, he's pulling
his wrist away because by God,he's gonna stab her.
Any blood on her hand, his hand,that knife, her arm, there is

(01:01:35):
gonna be a cast.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:36):
Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:38):
At that point.
Now they did, I will say, theydid a terrible job on the
initial investigation.
An awful job.
One at evidence collection, uh,photographs of the scene, uh,
and interviews.
So I will give the family that.
They did a terrible job, and thefamily should be pissed off
about that because you expectbetter out of out of your law

(01:02:01):
enforcement.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:02):
And they should have called an investigator and they
should have they should havephotographed everything.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:10):
And they did not.
And they should have taken athousand different angles.
One thing you can always do withthe photograph is dispose of it
if it's not needed.
But you can't create new onesonce a scene has been cleaned
up.
So then uh also the scene itselfwhere we were talking about uh,
hey, maybe the the butcher blockbeing fallen over is a sign of a

(01:02:33):
struggle.
She also had a freshly madefruit salad in a bowl right next
to it and a coffee pot.
Neither one of those disturbedor knocked over.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:42):
Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:43):
So if if there's a fight and they're whacking up
against this counter and there'sa struggle, I'm I mean, if
you're being stabbed, like yousaid earlier, you're moving all
over.
Even if she's trapped in thecorner of that uh that kitchen,
I guarantee you her arms, legs,everything's moving, banging
against that counter, thatbowl's not going to be sitting

(01:03:03):
there, and it's certainly notgonna be upright with fruit in
it.
And that coffee pot, I guaranteewas on its side, at the very
least.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:11):
Logically, wouldn't you be grabbing shit and trying
to like hit him with something?
Like there would be stuffeverywhere.
Yeah.
You'd be grabbing stuff and wellimagine this.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:21):
Let's say I'm even I have both hands, and I'm the one
being stabbed.
I'm the I'm the female, I'm thevictim here, and I'm holding
both wrists.
And you have a subject, and I'mnot saying it's him, let's say
it's even an intruder, and he'strying to grab her and he's
trying to stab her.
Now, your hands might be inclose proximity to your body or

(01:03:45):
his body, but your elbowsaren't.
Your elbows are moving aroundthis way, I guarantee you, with
your arms in front of you, andthat elbow is gonna swing
around, it's gonna probablyclear off everything behind her.
So there's gonna be no bowls,there's gonna be no coffee pots,
there's anything on that.
Well, I would say everything onthat counter is gonna be upside

(01:04:06):
down or off.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:06):
Sure.
Yep.
I know.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:08):
So that was another thing I I did see.
Uh, you talked about the theblood being pretty localized,
and it was pretty localized toone spot, maybe two on the
counter.
On the floor, the only bloodthat I observed in the
photographs was maybe a fewspots, but most of it was blood

(01:04:29):
that would have leaked out ofher body after she was on the
floor.
So it was more of a pooling.
I didn't notice um any dropletswith tails.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:41):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:41):
So if we're talking there, there's a you can look at
a cast off and you can tell ifit was a really quick swing or
even if it's a slow swing.
But if there's movement of thatblood droplet other than
straight down to the ground,then it's gonna have a tail on
it.
So if she's moving at all, likethere's any struggle, there

(01:05:05):
would have been a blood dropwith a tail on it.
And I didn't see any with atail, none.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:10):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:12):
So that was another thing that got my attention.
And we were talking about um hermedications and her state of
mind.
So I've worked, uh, I've workeda few suicides myself.
And I never worked a singlesuicide.
And I'm not saying this doesn'thappen because there are
suicides where people leavenotes.
I've I think I had one wherethey actually left a note.

(01:05:36):
And that was actually the onlyone where a family member had
had communications with thatperson that and then they
expressed suicidal thoughts.
None of the suicides that I'dworked other than that one, um,
did I have a family member say,Yeah, they mentioned suicide in

(01:05:56):
the past.
Matter of fact, it was morelikely that the family was
shocked.
It was like, well, I had noidea.
I knew they were depressed, Iknew they were upset with their
job, maybe they lost their job,or for whatever reason they were
down, but not once.
I shouldn't say once.

(01:06:16):
Once I did.
All the other times, they said,Well, they never mentioned that
they wanted to hurt themselves,kill themselves, anything like
that.
So that's not abnormal at all.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:29):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:33):
I f I feel like i in this such specific situation my
opinion is is that I don't thinkshe intended to r kill herself.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:45):
I don't think she did.
You know, we mentioned that shewas on some medications, and uh
like you'd mentioned before,some of the uh some of the
warnings on those medicationsmention suicide.
Um one of the things that's alsoI think important is she was new
to these medications.

unknown (01:07:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:04):
And the suicidal tendencies on these medications
is most prevalent when you beginusing them.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:10):
Right.
So um, you know, I I also wantto say that I, you know, in
looking at some of these sideeffects, I did notice on, I
believe it was clonapin that shewas on.
I read in one of the sites thatone of the side effects was

(01:07:32):
called um people have what theydescribe as brain zaps.
And that was listed under theside effects.
Brain zaps, and it was inquotation marks.
To where I suppose a brain zapis somebody feeling like their

(01:07:53):
brain is getting zapped.
I mean what it says.
If it's a big enough side effectthat it's listed under under one
of the side effects, you have totake in consideration that maybe
that's a possibility that thatwas happening.
Here's what I think happened.
I mean, I think she's superanxious, she's got these new

(01:08:15):
medications on board.
She's really anxious that day.
She goes home.
Maybe they got into a little bitof an argument because if you're
with somebody who's constantlyis constantly anxious and is

(01:08:36):
constantly expressing theirworry about something, at some
point you're gonna say, Jesus,just shut up about it already.
Like get over it, whatever.
I'm not saying that didn'thappen.
I'm saying that that's probablyexactly what happened.
They were, you know, she'sanxious.
She's already called her onecoworker twice and expressing

(01:08:56):
anxiety about this to hercoworker, her coworkers saying
to the other one, yourgirlfriend is crazy.
Your your best friend's crazy.
Maybe he she's saying the samestuff at home and he's like,
Jesus Christ, would you justshut up about it already?
Like, figure that, figure it thefuck out.
I'm going to the gym.
Like, sure.
You're stressing me the fuck outalready.

(01:09:17):
Shut up.
I'm going to the gym.
And and he's irritated.
I can totally see that.
Then he comes up the stairs andhe's locked out.
Now he's really freakingirritated.
Mind you, the therapist had saidthat she had never once
mentioned that there was anyabuse.

(01:09:38):
She adored Sam.
Sam apparently adored her.
It was a loving relationship.
She talked highly of Sam.
There wasn't any signs of abusein any text messages from way
beyond between her and Sam.
Nothing aggressive towards herat all.

(01:09:58):
The family liked him.
There was no signs of any typeof abuse.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:04):
And I I do want to point out, um, so they were
talking about the the thebruising on her.
Um some that look like bruiseson her neck in various parts of
her body.
I have various bruising on mybody.
And although Marissa can beabusive at times, none of the

(01:10:28):
bruises are from her.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:30):
When needed.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:31):
So something else is they interviewed not only the
psychiatrist, but theyinterviewed a lot of the
friends.
And I friends know when one oftheir close friends are being

(01:10:52):
abused, and the friend doesn'thave to come out and say, Oh, he
he beats me.
So I'm sure everybody knowssomebody that's a victim of
domestic abuse.
And they know that without theperson telling them.
They don't know it because theirfriend come out and says, Hey,

(01:11:15):
you know, I went home last nightand Steve was pissed off at me
and he he slapped me around.
They don't need to.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:23):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:24):
And I know a lot of people that will say, Yeah, I
think such and such is abusivein the relationship, not because
they come out and set it, butbecause there's other signs.
You will see things atgatherings, you'll see how
somebody looks at anotherperson, you will you'll notice
that person uh wearing clothingand purposely concealing marks

(01:11:48):
that are left behind.
So I think had this been anabusive relationship ever, that
at the very least, one of herfriends would have said so.
And even if one of her friendsdidn't say so, I'm guessing that
one of his coworkers, somebodythat had known him from the
past, um, I'm guessing inPhiladelphia, this was probably

(01:12:11):
pretty big news at the time,even though we didn't hear it
out here, maybe at the time, ormaybe it was in the news at the
time and we didn't even payattention.
Remind would remind everybodythis was back in 2011.
So this isn't something thatjust happened a couple of years
ago.
So I I think somebody would havecome forward and said, well,
actually, Sam was abusive towomen at times, or there would

(01:12:33):
have been a prior victimbecause, you know, they're in
their, I think, were they intheir 20s or their 30s?

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:40):
Late 20s, 27.
I think she was 27.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:42):
By then.
Uh most people who are abusers,and I'm not saying all, but
most, um, were probably abusersas early as maybe even in high
school or college.
So I'm guessing somebody wouldhave come out and said,
actually, he'd have a pattern ofabuse with women because he
abused me.
That never happened either.
So there was never anyindication, either from a

(01:13:04):
friend, from old classmates,from old roommates, old friends,
old girlfriends, old familymembers, nobody that there was
ever abuse in a relationship.
As a matter of fact, they allsaid the same thing, which is
they thought they had abeautiful relationship.

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:23):
Yeah.
The only thing that was said wasthat um in leading up to it, she
was starting to make someexcuses for like not going to
events or coming out with them.
So she would say things like,Well, I don't know, I need to
talk to Sam about that, or Idon't know, let me check with
Sam about that.
And so, of course, you know,they're gonna speculate that,
okay, well, maybe that was asign of some abuse going on

(01:13:46):
where she said that she had tocheck with Sam.
I'm gonna tell you.
I do that all the time.
It could be respect or it couldbe a cover because I know that
um I throughout my lifetime Ihave developed a social anxiety
and um I I kind of won't need tocome up with an excuse not to

(01:14:08):
go, not to being go somewherebecause I I just either I'm
exhausted, I don't want to go,I'm too tired.
Um, or I'm just in her case, tooanxiety-ridden um to socialize
that I I need to come up with anexcuse.
And so I'm gonna I'm gonna blameit on my spouse.

(01:14:28):
I mean, I think that's maybewhat she did.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:31):
I mean, I ask for permission for things all the
time, and Marissa can tell youthere's times where I asked, do
you mind if I go lie on thecouch?
And that's true, but I alwaysask before I do anything, before
I make almost any plan, if I'mtalking to somebody, say, Well,
I'll ask Marissa to make sureshe doesn't have plans.

(01:14:51):
One, because I'm terrible atplanning shit.
And I, you know, this might comeas a shock to some people.
I forget about a lot of theplans that we already have made.
Um, and there has been timeswhere I said, Yeah, I can do
that, and then I'll talk toMarissa and she'll say, uh,
we're not gonna be home.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:08):
Oh, whoops.
Yeah.
So I am in a pretty good habitnow of asking.
So it wouldn't strike me asunusual that she would say,
well, I don't know, let me letme ask.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:21):
Yeah, I think people are just, you know, because
because everybody's up in armsabout this and how it they just
can't believe it's a suicide.
And so now now they're just kindof grasping at stuff that they
think is clues.
They need some kind ofvalidation.
They need to blame somebodybecause they can't blame her.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:40):
Yes, because she would never do that.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:42):
You know, that's and I just want I want to make sure
everybody understands I do feelterrible for the family.
So nothing I'm saying here is ismeant to be disrespectful
whatsoever.
Where I'm coming from is ishaving investigated myself,
suicides, assaults, domestics.

(01:16:05):
Um, I can't say as I'veinvestigated a murder.
I have not done that.
So just to be fully transparentthere.
But looking through this, therewasn't one thing other than the
fact of somebody said, Yeah,this person died of 20 stab
wounds, if that's all theinformation I had, my brain

(01:16:28):
would immediately go to maybehomicide.
And I will say, when lawenforcement first showed up to
this, and I don't care what thesituation is, if you show up and
there's a person deceased, itshould always, always be assumed
that it's a homicide or there'sfoul play or there's something
funny going on.
It should always be investigatedas a homicide first, mainly to

(01:16:51):
avoid this sort of a problem.

SPEAKER_04 (01:16:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:55):
Um, because it's it's what's best for the family.
They deserve that.
It's best for the lawenforcement agency because you
do have to protect yourself andyour agency as well.
And you do that by doing a goodjob.

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:12):
Yeah.
And, you know, the other rumorsthat are, I just want to bring
those up that are going outthere is oh, supposedly had Sam
had all these uh family membersthat were in the high political
scene.
I think one was a judge, youknow, and how they're covering
up for him.
Well, I I don't believe that atall.

(01:17:34):
Um everybody's up in arms abouthow they were allowed to go up
into the apartment and get herlaptop and her engagement ring.
And I mean, the way it wasdescribed is that they went into
the apartment the next day toget, because she's Jewish,
they're going with her funeralreally quickly.

(01:17:57):
He needed his suit, and thenthey were gonna grab the
laptops, I imagine, maybe forpictures, songs, I don't know.
But it wasn't until the the nextday.
If they were really worried, ifif Sam or the family were
worried about destroyingevidence, why wouldn't they take
it that night?

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:18):
Well, that's true.

SPEAKER_03 (01:18:19):
And why wouldn't why would they wait?
They wouldn't wait.
If they're worried aboutcovering something up and
deleting stuff off of thecomputer, they're gonna take it
immediately.
They're not gonna wait till thenext day because possibly the
police have already taken it.
It might be the same.
It didn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:34):
You were cleared by law enforcement to take these
items.
Something else I want to I wantto point out because they did
say, well, the uncle took herlaptop.
Now, Sam wasn't the one thatretrieved all of the stuff from
the apartment.
It was the uncle because thefamily sent the uncle.
I'm guessing they sent the unclebecause it's possible Sam was

(01:18:55):
mourning her death and Sam waswith his immediate family, being
his mom, dad, any brothers orsisters they might have had, and
the one family member that theywould trust to go gather some of
their items would be more of a,you know, I don't want to say a
distant relative, but an uncleor a cousin or even a family
friend.
And if uh let's say I'm playingthe uncle and a family member

(01:19:21):
says, Hey, can you run up theapartment?
Um, grab the laptop and youknow, some personal items, and I
get up there and I'm looking andI see three laptops.
I'm probably instead of justcalling to bother people and
say, hey, which one is it?
I'm just gonna grab them all.

SPEAKER_03 (01:19:42):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (01:19:42):
And then I'm gonna take them back to where they're
at.
I'm just gonna hand all of themto them.
They're gonna know which one'stheirs, which one's hers.
So that's a pretty goodprobability.

SPEAKER_03 (01:19:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think you know, I think shecame home, she was stressed and
anxious, she took herprescription meds, and she had a
deadly deadly combination ofthem.
Not that she the the combinationof the drugs killed her, but
ultimately um it was secondaryto that because it caused her to

(01:20:22):
ha have some type of psychosisand and stab herself.
I feel like she was, this is myopinion, I feel like she was in
some type of ambient coma.
She did not know what was goingon.
She may have been hallucinating.
Um, she may have been feelingthese brain zaps, and she was
like, Oh my god, I can't takethis anymore.

(01:20:42):
And so she grabs a knife andshe's bent over and she's doing
this.
And one of them that says that,oh, the one that went into the
subdura says that it could haveincapacitated her.
Well, uh the other argument isthat it also made her not have
sensation.
Like she could fully move, butshe might not have sensation.

SPEAKER_00 (01:21:04):
Well, I I'm gonna read something.

SPEAKER_03 (01:21:06):
Um and then and then she goes on to the she slumps
down, then she goes on to thefront of herself.
And the last one was the fatalone.

SPEAKER_00 (01:21:16):
I've got some notes in here because there was
something pointed out um thathas everything to do with that
that stab wound to the back ofthe neck, and the fact that they
they later found that there wassome uh some damage to uh a
spinal cord.
Okay.
So this might take me just asecond because I I don't even

(01:21:37):
know if I highlighted it inhere.
I did.
Okay.
So this has to do with thespinal cord uh damage.
In the documentary, they theypointed out that they spoke to
this doctor, Emery, who had fourpossibilities of how the damage
occurred.

(01:21:57):
So she did state that theinjury, and this is in the the
report, and this is the reportthat was collected by the by the
family's attorneys.
So she says that the injury tothe duramatter surrounding the
victim's spine did not result inhemorrhaging as it normally

(01:22:19):
would occur.
So basically saying that if aperson was alive and you stabbed
this portion of the body, itwould hemorrhage, it would
bleed.
It did not.
So because it did not, she coulddetermine that this injury
occurred either after death orright before death.

(01:22:41):
So she also went on to say thatuh, okay, first that it could
have happened just a momentbefore death.
Second, it could have happenedmoments after the victim
expired.
Third, it could have occurredduring Dr.
Osborne's autopsy.

(01:23:01):
And lastly, the injury may havebeen simply too minor to cause
reactions such as hemorrhagingor cellular death.
But what I'm getting at, and Ican't remember where I saw this,
if it was in a documentary orsomewhere else, but oh no, I
think it was in the uh thelatter report.

SPEAKER_03 (01:23:21):
It was in the report, because I know what
you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:24):
Yep.
So after after this lawsuit,they did have the medical
examiner uh redo theinvestigation.
They couldn't redo the autopsy,obviously, but they could go
back and look at all thephotographs that were taken of
the scene.
They could read through thestatements, uh, reports by

(01:23:46):
police, statements by witnesses,statements by uh Sam.
But she was also able to look atthe photographs which were taken
during the autopsy itself.
And in one of those photographs,she noted, and this is from the
medical examiner on the secondreport.
I know some people are gonnamaybe argue this, that when

(01:24:08):
they're doing the autopsy,they're using a probe.
And I suppose they're using aprobe because they're probing
the depth of the stab wound.
The probe is round.
The probe in one of thephotographs was next to the deep
stab wound that uh was the samestab wound where they noticed

(01:24:29):
that there was some damage tothe spinal cord or surrounding
the spinal cord.
She also noted that the injury,the puncture of that spinal cord
was more circular.
The tip of a knife is notcircular, but the tip of the
knife of the probe is.

(01:24:49):
Yeah.
So it is likely, and she alsostated, and I tend to believe
this, it's not uncommon thatwhen you're probing a wound
during an autopsy, that youinadvertently probe and cause
maybe some damage in theprocess.
The damage is gonna be minor,and in this case, it was minor.

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:25:11):
It'll probably come from that probe.

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:13):
And especially to uh fragile tissue.
Yes.
The the subdura is gonna be veryfragile tissue and it's gonna be
easily damaged.
If so, if they're probing it,and they might just be, you
know, poking in to see how longthat is or how deep it is, and
they they're trying to hit theend of it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:25:33):
And I I will say so the the original um medical
examiner initially did rule thisa homicide, and there was some
question as to why did themedical examiner then change
their mind uh to a homicideafter this meeting with other
members of law enforcement, theDA's office, and uh the uh

(01:25:55):
medical examiner uhinvestigator.
And the reason is because therewas some information that the
medical medical examiner did nothave.
Some of that information had todo with the medication
medications she was on.
Um, some of it had to do withher mental state, some of it

(01:26:15):
probably had to do with somestatements from witnesses that
have been collected since heroriginal ruling, which was done
the night she was killed.

SPEAKER_01 (01:26:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:26:28):
So, mind you, that law enforcement went back after
the fact to continue theinvestigation after she ruled it
a homicide.
And I'm guessing that shechanged it because after their
investigation, they collectedmore of this evidence, brought
it to her, or him, I guess.
It wasn't her.

(01:26:49):
And the medical examinerreviewed this and said, Oh,
okay, well, this actually doeslook like a suicide.

SPEAKER_03 (01:26:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:26:58):
So that's probably why it was changed.

SPEAKER_03 (01:27:00):
I don't think it was well, and part of it was the
evidence on her laptops.
I mean, there was evidence thatthere were that she was
searching suicide.
And and not just once, severaltimes, I think.
And did I read nine times,several times?
I don't know.
I can't remember, several times.

(01:27:21):
And whether she was actuallylooking up suicide or she was
looking up side effects to hermedications, and a pop-up ad
came up about are you are youfeeling suicidal?
You know, sometimes that'llhappen.
Regardless, something'shappening that she's looking up
information that relates tosuicide.

(01:27:46):
Coupled with the medicationsthat she's on, coupled with her
anxiety disorder.
Again, I'm gonna mention wedon't know what other medical
condition she has that mightcouple along with it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:28:00):
Uh and real quick, how how how long are we in this?
Oh, a little long.
Okay, so just uh also real quickbefore this uh slips my mind
because it did slip it earlier.
Um, when we were talking aboutthe the injuries to the back of
the neck and the angles, and umthere was some argument that um
she couldn't havebiomechanically made these

(01:28:24):
injuries to herself.
And so I just thought, why justtry it?
So I grabbed a butter knife, andI used the butt end, so I didn't
accidentally stab myself, and Itried to see if there was a
portion of the neck, and I onlyused one hand, I used my right
hand, um, I'm left-handed, bythe way, to see if there was an

(01:28:46):
angle or a part of the neck thatI couldn't reach, and I could
hit them all.
And I could hit them frommultiple directions, especially
like you said, if I was leanedover a sink, um I could hit any
angle I wanted to on any portionof my neck that I wanted to.

(01:29:06):
So is it biomechanicallypossible?
Yeah, because I did it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:29:11):
Yeah, I'm gonna I I'm also gonna bring this up
because you and I had taughtmentioned this before when we
were talking about this, um, Ithink briefly before what we
what conclusion we had come to,but and I told you I I didn't
tell Marissa this, but I toldyou this that I have a history
of migraines.
I remember when I was incollege, I had such a terrible

(01:29:37):
migraine.
It was so bad.
I said, I told Steve, You've gotto take me to the emergency
room.
I can't stand this anymore.
I have to have something done.
Went into the ER and they saidthe doctor came in, he's like,
on a scale of one to ten.
I'm like, it's a thousand.
I said, I don't care.
I said, I'm I'm ready right nowfor you to just chop my head

(01:29:59):
off.
I and I said those words, I'mlike, I need to get rid of this
pain.
Just I don't care if you chop myhead off.
I it hurts so bad.
If she's having a side effect towhere she's having brain zaps
and it's hurting so bad, I mean,because people are like, how
could she stab herself?
How could she stab herself thatmany times and it would be so

(01:30:20):
painful?
I can believe it.
If she's having some kind ofpain in her head or her neck
where it's hurting and she'strying to get rid of it, she
might be trying to do somethingjust to get rid of that pain.
Or, like I said, she's in sometype of altered reality
psychosis type scenario whereshe doesn't know what the hell

(01:30:42):
she's doing.
Or both.
Right.
I just I don't I don't think sheprobably intended to kill
herself.
I think it was a an episode ofsome type of something.
Oh, there's several stories.
If you go, if let's let's takeTikTok, for example, if you go
on TikTok and you look upAmbient episodes or ambient

(01:31:07):
stories, there's thousands ofpeople talking about what they
did without their knowledgewhile they were on Ambien.
And uh there's a there's aninstance of a gal that said she
was in labor and they they gaveher they they took her into the

(01:31:28):
hospital to be induced.
They gave her an ambien to sleepbecause they weren't gonna start
the actual induction until thenext day.
On that ambient, her mom wasthere.
She saw someone behind her momwith a with an axe trying to
murder her.
She's in the hospital forinduction, and she's she's

(01:31:51):
hallucinating and seeing this.
So this this happens, like thisis a real thing.
Ambient coma, ambient psychosishappens.
So we don't know what she saw,but I fully believe that's that
is what happened to her.

SPEAKER_00 (01:32:07):
Well, it's a bad deal.
Again, I feel bad for thefamily.
It doesn't change, you know.
We're on the this podcast, andit is a it's a discussion.
These are obviously ouropinions.
However, I would say that myopinion is based on a little bit

(01:32:28):
of experience.
This isn't something that I justwatched a documentary and
formulated that opinion.

SPEAKER_03 (01:32:34):
I actually watched the documentary and thought,
well, I think most people thatare were listening to that's all
they have.

SPEAKER_00 (01:32:41):
I I did read the initial um autopsy report,
medical examiner report.
I read the entire lawsuit.
Um, I read all of the uh all ofthe opinions of the examiners
and other doctors andprofessionals within that

(01:33:01):
lawsuit, and I read the entiresecond uh medical examiner
report.
And I didn't come across anyinformation in there that it
really at any time that led meto believe that it was anything
but, you know, self-inflicted.

SPEAKER_04 (01:33:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:33:21):
Um as much as I would have liked to have
believed that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:33:26):
Well, people want a story.

SPEAKER_00 (01:33:28):
Sure.

SPEAKER_03 (01:33:28):
People want to be the ones to solve the crime.

SPEAKER_00 (01:33:32):
And I know that there's gonna people be some
people that say, well, but theuh the fiance isn't talking.
Well, I think the reason thefiance isn't talking is because
one, the documentary was lookingfor people to believe a a
certain thing.
Sure.

(01:33:52):
And it if it was me and I was afiance, I wouldn't want to talk
because I know what happens umin some of these documentaries.
You can easily cut and paste andand you can make it look like
anything.
And he probably was fearful thatif he said anything at all,
regardless of what he said, whenthat documentary came out,
they're gonna make it look likehe was hiding something.

(01:34:14):
So I can understand that fear,and I can understand not wanting
to talk about it.
I can understand not wanting torelive it because I can't
imagine what it would be like towalk into a room and see your
fiance lying on the floor.

SPEAKER_03 (01:34:28):
And it's 14 years later.

SPEAKER_00 (01:34:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:34:30):
And he's got a family of his own now.

SPEAKER_00 (01:34:32):
Sure.
So I mean he really had nothingto gain by saying anything, and
he still doesn't have anythingto gain by saying anything.
So that's that's probably why.

SPEAKER_01 (01:34:44):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:34:45):
So what what do you have anything to add?
I do not.
Yeah.
Do you think we covered it allof why we think that?
I think so.

unknown (01:34:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:34:55):
I mean, I I just encourage people to look into
the actual reports, look intothe side effects of those
medications, think about itlogically.
Picture yourself in the own situin that situation, and that's
what I did.
I pictured myself in thatkitchen and somebody trying to
stab me, and how that scenariowould look.

(01:35:17):
It's not gonna look like thepicture that no, no, so that's
all I have on that particularthing.

SPEAKER_00 (01:35:26):
I wanted to bring up something real quick, um, talk
about some more local stuff.
Uh, we live in Nebraska, and uhI've noticed uh a lot in the
news lately about some sextrafficking in an Omaha.
And I'm thinking maybe in somefuture episodes we're gonna go

(01:35:47):
over uh and we've mentioned itbefore we're looking into uh
some stuff that that happenedthat is portrayed in the the
Franklin, is it called theFranklin scandal?

SPEAKER_04 (01:35:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:35:59):
Um but just this year there's been like uh a
dozen people arrested in Omahafor sex trafficking, and and a
lot of this involving minors.

SPEAKER_01 (01:36:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:36:13):
And so um it's a it's a problem.

SPEAKER_03 (01:36:18):
It's a big problem, and it's and it's not a recent
problem.
This problem has been going onfor years and years.

SPEAKER_00 (01:36:25):
No, and I don't think it's getting the attention
that it it really deserves.

SPEAKER_03 (01:36:28):
And maybe, maybe we do need to finally bite the
bullet and actually start withthe Franklin scandal.
Um, that's gonna open a lot ofeyes.
Even though it's happened yearsago, it's it opened my eyes for
a lot of things in a lot ofwhere you can't believe that
that stuff happens in Nebraskaor where or particularly where

(01:36:54):
we live.

SPEAKER_00 (01:36:55):
When that book was written, and that book was
written quite a long time ago, Ican see where somebody would
read that book and say, thisdoes not seem real.
But now when you when you readthat book, and then if you just

(01:37:16):
even search uh traffickingOmaha, and I think I started in
January of 25 up to today'sdate, and we're into October,
and I think I come up with threeor four within three or four
months.
I didn't even get through thewhole year.

(01:37:37):
And uh these were largeroperations.
One of these that took place, Ithink there was like uh five
people arrested.
And it these five people alleither owned or operated hotels
in the Omaha area where thetrafficking took place.
So it's it's a big deal.

SPEAKER_03 (01:37:56):
Yeah.
And in in the Franklin scandal,um it originated uh uh uh with
Boys Town and also with childprotective services and f the
foster care system.

SPEAKER_00 (01:38:13):
And it uh was perpetrated at least a now this
is alleged because the guy wasnever arrested for it, but uh by
a pretty powerful member inOmaha, so a wealthy individual.
So um I think maybe goingthrough it now, it's it's
definitely more believablebecause of course we've seen the
news with with uh Diddy.

(01:38:34):
Um we've seen uh who are someother ones that were here within
the last year.
Epstein Epstein.
Um that's still actuallyongoing.
Yeah.
Funny how that was a openinvestigation, closed
investigation, openinvestigation.

SPEAKER_03 (01:38:48):
So I mean, the I heard somebody say that this is
the original Epstein.

SPEAKER_00 (01:38:54):
I believe so.

SPEAKER_03 (01:38:55):
The the the Franklin scandal in Omaha, Nebraska with
Boys Town was the originalEpstein type situation.
I think it's probably bigger.
I think if I maybe.

SPEAKER_00 (01:39:09):
I think it's possible had this investigation
taken place today, that maybethe outcome would have been a
little different.
But we'll probably have to getinto that on a later episode.

SPEAKER_03 (01:39:19):
Oh yeah, we're gonna.
Because this we're yeah.
Well, that's gonna be like afive-part episode, I think.
That's it's huge.

SPEAKER_00 (01:39:27):
So well Marissa's rolling her eyes, so that must
be time to close this off.

SPEAKER_03 (01:39:31):
So Marissa's doing no such thing.
So uh anyways, I guess send usthat hate mail.

SPEAKER_00 (01:39:40):
All right, well, next time.

SPEAKER_03 (01:39:42):
Maybe we'll get some listeners.
Maybe this is a state listenerafter this one.

SPEAKER_00 (01:39:48):
All right, well, we'll see you later.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

The Bobby Bones Show

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ellen Greenberg: Reexamining A Controversial Death

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

The Bobby Bones Show

All Episodes

Ellen Greenberg: Reexamining A Controversial Death

Dateline NBC