Ep. 163 – 'The TV Industry Is Broken, How Do We Fix It?' with Claire Duffy - Just Get A Real Job

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Hello, I am Jamie McKinley and thank you for tuning in to
another episode of Just Get a Real Job.
I'm really excited to put this week's episode out and joining
us on the show this week is producer, writer and author and
the founder of the Glasgow TV Festival, the wonderful Claire
Duffy. Claire has done lots of work
recently to put on the first ever Glasgow TV Festival, which

(00:27):
will run from the 29th of May till the 1st of June.
And we spoke about that a lot inthis week's episode.
But this week's episode is a little bit more hopeful as well
because as many of our regular listeners will know, we've done
lots of episodes about the stateof the TV industry, the current
crisis that's facing the TV and wider creative industries.
And what I loved about having Claire on the show is we spoke a
lot about some of the positive things we can potentially do to

(00:50):
fix the industry and how her idea of the Glasgow TV Festival
can be part of that solution. So it's a really, really
insightful and interesting episode and it was lovely to
also chat to declare. About her career.
Some of the interesting ideas she's got and some of the
lessons she's learned along the way as well.
But before I get into today's brilliant chat with Claire, I

(01:10):
just wanted to very quickly touch on the news regarding the
cancellation of River City from the BBC last week.
So many of the listeners of thispodcast will know I work at
River City full time as a scripteditor outside of doing this
podcast. So it was a very strange week
last week. Obviously it's hard when you.
See all your colleagues. Losing their jobs or, you know,

(01:31):
experiencing uncertainty, which of course I'm going for myself.
And I'll never shy away from being honest on this show.
And I've started this podcast tobe a social mobility and
resource for people that want towork in the creative industries.
I'm mapping my own journey in that as well, but always being
honest about what stage of my career I'm at and the things I
go through with that. And obviously it was a very
difficult week. It's very sad for the hundreds

(01:53):
of people that are going to be have a job after next year.
And I think it is a hammer blow to an industry which I mean,
cover the this in today's episode.
We spoke about on the podcast for nearly a year.
But I mean, it's hammerable to ATV industry that is already
facing a massive crisis. So I do ultimately think it's a
mistake from the BBC. I've got lots of thoughts and
ideas on this. And I never also use this
podcast to personally attack anyone or to have a go at anyone

(02:15):
either. I think it's always to be
constructive. But I spoke to the paper in
Scotland called The National andI've linked that article below.
Some of my thoughts are in that article.
And I also went on friend of thepodcast, Ashley Dick's YouTube
channel, Sonora, and I spoke to her about it as well.
So you can maybe hear more of mythoughts there.
But I wanted to bring this up aswell as the reason we didn't put
a new episode out last week was because of that.

(02:37):
And this week's episode is a bitmore positive.
And it is about how we fix the TV industry and some of the
solutions. And it just didn't feel like the
right time to put an episode like that out in the face of
such grim news. So we're putting out now, and
we're going to have lots more conversations around the
decision to cancel River City and the wider context of the
problems facing the TV industry.That's me off my soapbox for
today. But I really hope you enjoy this

(02:58):
week's episode and thank you as always for all your support.
It's been really nice to get so many lovely messages from our
listeners about the news as well.
So I hope you enjoy this week's episode and yeah, cheers for
listening. Just get a real job.

(03:26):
Claire, how are you? Lovely to have you on, Jessica.
Real job tonight. Thank you very much for coming
on the show. Appreciate.
It not at all. Thank you for asking me.
I'm glad to be here. It's a pleasure.
Well, we are using Zoom to record this, which I haven't
used in many, many bumps. So this is a bit of a throwback,
but we're we're persevering withthe tech issues we had before,
so it's all going to be worth it.
My tech issues, I'm happy to. I'm happy to admit that.

(03:50):
In fairness, we were very like, there was no drama.
We just quickly dealt with it very fast.
We adapted and here we are. But Claire, let's just let's
just kick things off. What is the Glasgow TV festival?
We'll get to know you as well aswe go into this episode.
But let's just go straight into this because that's what a lot
of people on socials and stuff will be knowing you for the
moment because that that is thatis the big thing that's that's

(04:11):
happening. It is, it is.
It's a huge thing. It's a brilliantly exciting
thing. The response from the industry
so far has just been absolutely incredible, even better than I
could have ever imagined. I genuinely thought I might get
a little bit of, you know, well,what's this?
This is new. I'm not sure about this sort of
pushback, but everyone has just been so incredibly generous and

(04:33):
excited and adventurous about itall, which just goes to tell me
how badly it's needed. So the Glasgow Telly Festival is
a festival, but a festival with a bit of a difference.
It's, it's kind of the beginningof a revolution.
I think I've, I've been feeling for a really, really long time
and I think a lot of us have been that the industry is kind
of fundamentally broken. Have I?

(04:54):
Oh yes, yeah, I know that I was.Oh God, I've bored you already.
Yes. So I think that the, I think the
industry had broken for a reallylong time.
And the, the everything that's happened over the past few years
with the economic crisis and with COVID and with, you know,
the strikes and all the rest of it have have just really shown a

(05:14):
spotlight into some issues that have been happening for for
decades really. And I really, I started thinking
about, I've been thinking about on and off for years and years
and years like this cannot be, you know, I feel like we're,
we're, it is almost a Stockholm syndrome a little bit in the
industry where we all talk abouthow this isn't working and it's
not working for anyone. And I don't think it works for
audiences as much as it doesn't work for us either.

(05:39):
So we all kind of talk about it and then we continue sending our
scripts out and sending our showreels out and just doing what
you do because there isn't really an alternative.
And so for the past kind of couple of years now, it's been
feeling more and more urgent to me to be like, there needs to be
an alternative and there is an alternative.
And when I kind of came up with what I think is the solution, I

(06:00):
feel like I've been a little bitcryptic.
I will explain what I'm saying. But when I came up with what I
think is maybe the solution to kind of move things forward and
to kind of return to the roots of what telly was always
supposed to be, but doing so in a really like kind of 21st
century digital sort of way. I was like, we need to launch it
with a, because I think something that the industry

(06:20):
that's a little bit related to that kind of like Stockholm
syndrome that I was talking about.
We're very, we're very bad at orgood at, I'm not sure, quite
sure what the term is. Sort of anytime there's
something a little bit new and different, we'll maybe try one
little thing and then we go, oh,that didn't work.
It's fine. We'll just carry on with how we
how we, we've always done things.
So I really wanted to, to make it really clear this wasn't just

(06:41):
about one new project in a, in adifferent or kind of innovative
sort of way, but it was actuallya whole new system for launching
loads and loads of projects. And, and it is, yeah, a little
bit of a beginning of a revolution.
And so I thought a festival, a festival is what we should do.
So here we are. Very well, there's lots to
unpack in that. And I came to the the launch

(07:03):
event of your festival a few weeks ago to have a wee nose
and, you know, really just get this interview really.
But you know, I was, I was interesting to be there and to
sort of hear about it and stuff.And there's lots I want to ask
you about it and stuff. But what I think it's
interesting you're saying that we've been talking about the
industry not working for what feels like a long time because
done a lot on this podcast recently about the ongoing

(07:23):
crisis facing freelancers and TVparticularly.
I think it's interesting to talkabout why it's not working for
audiences as well, because oftenI've been coming at it from the
perspective of working in it. And yeah, no, it's interesting.
And I think sometimes I've, I'vethought to myself like, are we
talking about this too much without having solutions?
So I think it's interesting thatyou're trying to like be like,

(07:43):
OK as well, let's talk about it,which I think is vital as well.
How can we fix it? Exactly.
I think that's exactly what kindof spread me a little bit into
action because I feel as though these conversations, you know,
they've been kind of growing andgrowing in volume for, for
several years. I mean, and really, to be
honest, as long as I've been in the industry, which is a really
long time. I left film school in 2002, so

(08:05):
very nearly 25 a quarter of a century ago and we've been
talking about how things don't really work ever since then.
I think in 2007 there was it waslike a stock market crash or
what going to details in a row and what have but and the BBC
lost lost a lot of funding and sort of development just kind of
disappeared and it hasn't reallyever properly come back.

(08:28):
So that's what my maths isn't good enough, but that's the best
part of 20 years that we've all been going.
Oh, we're heading for a crisis. Oh, we, we need to invest in new
talent and we need, we need to invest in established talent as
well. And we need better stories and
we need to keep up with, you know, when however, Netflix came
along, we were all a bit like, oh, we'll just pretend it's not
happening. And then we kind of couldn't

(08:49):
anymore. So then we just started sort of
papering over the cracks and trying to put the same types of
series that had worked on a likean episodic weekly basis onto
streaming and then bingeing became a thing.
And yeah, so I just feel like it's been, we've been papering
over cracks and talking about, oh, it's not working, it's not
working, it's not working for such a long time.
And of course, those conversations have been getting

(09:09):
louder and louder for, I think particularly the past year, like
with this big the commissioning freeze, which of course is
affecting, you know, I'm very much scripted, but unscripted as
well. I mean, that was announced for
September, I think 23, so a goodyear and a half ago.
And we're still talking about the problem.
And, and I do agree with you that we need to keep talking

(09:31):
about the problem. We need to really identify what
the problem is. But also we need to make work
and we need to do work. And we need to also, yeah, think
about what a solution is. And I think sitting around
waiting for the the kind of the powers that be to come up with a
solution, it's, it was, it's never going to work.
It's never worked for any kind of revolution.
It's not going to work for this one either.

(09:53):
No, it's really interesting. I think especially at a time
where, you know, the latest backto survey was 56% of our
industry are working and stuff like as you say, we need to try
and adapt, find ways to maybe work or create work and stuff as
well on our own terms, yeah. Because the thing that really
frustrates me about it is that audience appetite has never gone
away. Like, it's something that has

(10:13):
bothered me about the industry again for 1/4 of a century that
I don't know anyone that doesn'twatch telly or doesn't watch
films or doesn't, you know, playgames or, you know, consume
entertainment in some way or other.
It's, it's a pretty universal human experience, right?
And yet we're all like, but there's no money to do anything.
I'm like, well, how can there possibly not be?

(10:33):
I can understand how, you know, where, where there's arts that I
do think it's really important to, um, to support, you know,
like for the government support and so on.
And that may not always have such a, you know, commercial
appeal. They still need to be part of
our culture and our society. And so I totally agree with
that. But when it comes to telly, I'm
like, it should be a thriving business.

(10:54):
We have pretty much every the majority of humans on earth is
our market. And yet we're all like, it's a
crisis. There's no work, there's no
money. And I'm like, that doesn't add
up. Where is all there has to be
money and where is it going? And I think that's what I mean
about the system's broken. I don't think, you know, I don't
blame commissioners. I don't blame producers, I don't

(11:17):
blame everyone's just trying to do their jobs the best they can
and, and trying to work within. But yeah, the system, it is the,
the financial side of it, which isn't my area of expertise, but
it is hopelessly, ridiculously bloated.
And, and so there's, there's an efficiency that's missing there.
And, and again, it's, it goes back to the Stockholm syndrome

(11:37):
thing where we're all like, oh, it's terrible.
We don't have the budget to do anything.
And yet we'll just do the same budget to do the same things
again and again, and we'll just be really confused when that
still doesn't work in another year or five years or 10 years.
I think that's we, we did a big industry live panel a couple
weeks ago about the problems facing the TV industry.

(11:58):
And I think a lot of what he talked about and philibraphy is
a brilliant sort of voice on theongoing crisis and TV and stuff
talked about some solutions and ways around it.
And I think one of the things hesaid was that there's not enough
innovation at the moment. It's completely what you're
saying. We're kind of stuck on that
things aren't working, but we'restill doing the same thing.
And it's like that, you know, Isaac and the Einstein thing of
like, you know, that, you know, definite doing the same thing

(12:20):
again and again and getting the same result.
It is, it's mad and there is money.
It's just that it's being used to make certain types of shows
and the mid tier shows and the lower budget shows as a result
of that have either died or justaren't able to sustain
themselves in this in the way wedo things now.
So I think it's really interesting to speak to people
like yourself who are trying to think of innovate, innovative

(12:41):
ways of making TV and making artand stuff in a way that's
different. But also what's interesting I
want to talk to you about as well as the old studio system.
Some of your idea isn't actuallydifferent.
It's actually going back to the roots of it as well as doing
something in it of it. Yeah, exactly.
And, and, and in a way that's quite necessary because that's
when there was innovation because, and that's one of the

(13:04):
things I love about the everything that we're doing with
the Glasgow Telly Festival. And like every time that I've
explained the, the concept of someone, they've been like, oh,
that's a bit like, or that's a bit like.
None of this is, it is reinventing the wheel.
It is all stuff that does exist and it has existed for, for over
a century, quite a lot of and, and, and that too feels really

(13:24):
right to me as well, because nothing's invented wholesale.
And I think sometimes that's part of this is sticking with
how things have always been donebecause it's almost like, well,
the alternative is to just throweverything away and, and you
know, do do something that has never been done before.
And that's terrifying. And that and I'm like, no, it
doesn't have to be there's we have rich because I think the
thing I always go back to and what sounds a little bit cheesy

(13:46):
is humans have been telling stories and listening to stories
for hundreds of thousands of years, you know, and
fundamentally that hasn't reallychanged.
Yes, we have, you know, we've had also an oral tradition and
then that we became theatre and then that's it became radio and
film. And so we, the medium has
changed, but fundamentally storytelling hasn't changed.

(14:07):
And that's kind of what I mean when I say that the audiences
haven't changed. It is true that audiences aren't
watching like terrestrial linear, linear TV in the way
that they they once were, but they're still consuming stories.
People who said scrolling through TikTok, what grabs their
attention is, is a story, It's acharacter.
And and yes, it might be a real person.

(14:28):
Sometimes it's not a real personor it's a real person who is
still performing their own story.
I was talking to somebody a little while ago who was saying
that his kids don't watch TV anymore.
And he's like, I find that really, really sorry, my friend
just I mean, that's that's therewe go.
And he was like, I find that so sad that they're just, they
don't they don't watch TV the way that my generation did.
But then he said they're addicted to the side men.

(14:50):
I don't know if you know them. They're like this sort of
YouTube phenomenon. I think they were like gamers to
start with. It's this group of friends that
started streaming games and now they've become this like
incredible phenomenon. And they do sort of like, I
think sort of Jackass type challenge and they've got
podcasts and so on. And he was like, they just watch
that. They don't watch TV.
And I was like, the sideman is asoap opera.

(15:11):
The sideman it's all about with the thing that keeps kids
watching them gaming and, and talking about their lives and
going on travel adventures and all the different shows that
they do. It's their, it's their
characters and it's their friendship and it's watching
them grow up. And they went from like skinny
teenage boys to they've all got kind of girlfriends and babies.

(15:32):
And I think one of them left at one point.
And it's the same stuff that makes my mum watch Coronation
Street. It's the same stuff that makes
me watch Melrose Place. It's the same stuff that had
people coming back to the cinemain, you know, the, the teens,
the the 19 teens to watch what'sher name flowing at my head,
Gloria Swanson. Every single week in different

(15:54):
in different short films. It's fundamentally storytelling.
And I think that when we ignore that and we get really focused
on the, the medium or the format, we're missing the point
of, of telling stories, which is, which is I guess is what my
I'm all about. I think that's what we should,
yeah, get back to. And, and can you explain the

(16:14):
sort of old studio system and the barns and stuff because
you're taking that concept into the TV festival and what you
want to do with it, right? Exactly.
Yeah, so, so I'm a huge old Hollywood obsessive.
I always have been. And I one of the things I love
about it or that was I've just realized that's a completely
different question. No, it was.
It was interesting. Still, it's useful stuff.
I do tend to go off in tangents about this because there's so

(16:36):
much to it and I'm very passionate about all of it.
So yeah, just feel free to kind of steer me in the right
direction. But yeah, so the old, so when
Hollywood started and people, somany people talk about old
Hollywood, they talk about like the studio system and the golden
age, like the 30s and 40s. And I'm like, no, no, no, no,
that's practically new Hollywoodas far as I'm concerned.

(16:57):
I'm fascinated with the, you know, the, the naughties or
whatever it was called then the 1900s and the teens, which is
basically when they, they just invented what screen
storytelling was, you know, so they started off with, so
initially moving cameras, it wasjust the excitement of seeing
movement. So you would just see people
like jumping up and down or dancing or, you know, climbing a

(17:18):
tree or something like that. And then it was actually a
French female filmmaker called Alice Key Letter Alice Key
Blanchet, whose husband was intoAmdram and he she wanted to film
like his him and his friends doing plays.
So then it was very much like, you know, like when parents film
like a school play. So you just had the one shot and

(17:38):
the actress sort of moving around and then went by the time
the Hollywood studios started being founded.
And one of the things I love about that period is that there
was literally nothing in Hollywood.
There was a few farms and that was yet so when the studios
founded like they had to put in like running water and
sanitation systems and all that kind of thing.
And that's a whole fascinating aspect of it as well.

(18:01):
But anyway, they all kind of like they got there and they
were a bit like, wait, So what do we do with this?
What's what's this medium going to be?
A lot of them had come from vaudeville.
And so not even really like sortof straight theatre, but
vaudeville, a lot of that is about just making things up and
oh, does that make the audience laugh?
Great, let's do it again. And so there's a lot of kind of
like improv as they create vaudeville shows and even on

(18:21):
stage as well, because it's all about like what's funny, what's
entertaining. And that was a lot of the the
early film makers who became whobecame the early film makers.
So they would all be sitting around in these, you know, barns
that they had taken over from anold ranch.
And there's great, like there's memoirs that literally talk
about how like the smell of horseshit was everywhere because
the horses had literally been moved out.

(18:42):
And the film makers came in and,and they basically brainstormed
they and they talked about stories, you know, they came up
with original stories and they read, came up with novels and
newspapers for like real life stories or plays or whatever.
And whenever they thought they might have something, they kind
of grab a couple of them. They didn't even really have a
sort of writer, director, actor,producer yet.

(19:04):
It was just a bunch of people who would do whatever was
necessary to to make a film, Which incidentally, is one of
the reasons that a lot of the early female film makers don't
have the credits that they deserve because a lot of them
were producing and, and directing.
But when credits were starting to get formalized, maybe sort of
10 or 15 years later, it was typically men that were doing

(19:28):
that. And we just sort of assume that,
oh, she was probably just the actress or she was just the,
the, the, the writing was actually seen as a female, as a
more of a woman's work at the time.
That's a little tangent, but anyway, when they thought they
might have something, they grabbed a few of them and they
went outside and they, you know,they grabbed maybe an A cowboy
off the street and they improvised a camera and they
were literally like, okay, so the beginning of the story is

(19:48):
this and this is how we're goingto do it.
And hold on a minute. If we get a little bit close up
and we can actually see the, youknow, the actors expressions,
then then that feels a bit more intimate.
And Oh yeah, OK, let's let's call that a close up.
And so they were just literally figuring out as they went,
seeing what things looked like and what they felt like.
And, you know, OK, it's getting a little bit boring.

(20:09):
Let's have a, an explosion come in now and, and what have you.
And as soon as they kind of got to a point that they had a sort
of the beginnings of a story, itusually be like A1 rail, which
is about 12 minutes. So basically a short.
They would take that directly toaudience.
So there was these little, you know, what would eventually
become cinemas again were basically barns with like a
sheet strung up at the the front.
There was actually one in particular that was a sheet.

(20:31):
It was just strung across like 2tenement buildings and then in
the middle and they would project to just whoever was like
walking by or whoever was aroundand they would stand at the back
and they would watch as people like laughed or gasped or get
bored and started talking or left or you know, whatever it
was. And they took note of these
reactions. That's literally where the term
cut to the chase comes from. They saw people getting bored

(20:54):
and went, oh, let's cut straightto the chase so that they don't
get bored next time. So depending on the reaction,
they would take it back to the studio and they might re cut it
or they might reimagine it all together, put the character in a
different story or, or if it worked, they might then, you
know, develop it into a feature or whatever it was.
The point is that they were always everything was on its
feet. Nobody was sort of sitting with

(21:15):
a story flat on a page for like years on end and hearing
theoretical feedback from peoplewho may have very informed
opinions, but it's still fundamental opinion.
It was really, really active andit was really audience, audience
facing I guess. And it was all trial and error
and nobody was getting married to scenes that they had been

(21:35):
writing for months and months and months and months.
They were just like, does that work?
No, Great. So in theatre works a little
like theatre rehearsal works a little bit like that.
Or it should do it anyway. But generally in the film
industry, in this or the centurysense, we've just got further
and further away from audiences.And I think that's a really big
thing that has contributed to this crisis.

(21:56):
Because when you have a development system that is
fundamentally based on a tiny group of people being able to
psychically predict what audiences might like in, let's
face it, three to five years, it's of course they're risk
averse. Why would you not be risk
averse? Guesswork is nothing.
It's terrifying. And these people want to keep

(22:17):
their jobs as much as the rest of us do.
So I think that the solution is to go back to the way that these
old Hollywood film makers workedand to get things up on their
feet at a much, much earlier stage where it's a tiny risk.
In Europe, we're talking about afew £100 to grab an actor and a
camera and just see if you have something and see if audiences
might get excited about it. That's what's going to kind of

(22:40):
break things open and sort of, yeah, it's not about throwing
the traditional development process out completely because
of course it has so much value, but it's not enough in its own.
It needs to be underpinned with a lot more action, I think.
I think the, I mean, I worked indevelopment for two, two or four
years and I still sort of kind of do some of that as a script

(23:02):
that I know and stuff. And I've got loads of thoughts
on it. And it's really interesting to
hear because we are guessing like obviously I've, I've, I've
been taught, I've learned how tolook out for a good script, but
fundamentally in the day, that is objectively just my opinion.
I am a completely different taste to you.
Probably we could both read the script, both think 1 was amazing
and one was shite. Doesn't necessarily.

(23:24):
I mean, there's things you can always look out for in a script,
but like at the end of the day, it is kind of guess work.
And like, I love the people I work with from development.
There's a lot of talented people, but it is quite a
removed system as well. It's quite a hidden way it works
like no one sees it, like it's very disconnected for it can all
sometimes feel quite disconnected from audiences as
well. I know they do like tester

(23:45):
screens, but often that's they'dalready shot something and
unless it's like a film, they'd have millions of pounds.
Like we're going to go and reshoot half this film.
That does not happen very often.It's usually more like, right,
we'll edit this scene slightly so it's 2 minutes less or you
know what I mean. So this is a like this is sort
of starting almost at ground level grassroots.
So it's you're take, you're almost saying to the
Commissioner as well, what wouldbe less risk of ours for you

(24:06):
because we've got, we're gathering evidence now.
Well. Exactly.
So that is the whole idea because you know, I too have
worked in development. I was a reader for years and
years and I've been in development as a writer as well.
And there are times that, you know, you're, you always want
to, you'll be really receptive to notes.
And I've, I've had some incredible notes in my career
that I've been sitting there going, Oh my gosh, yes, why

(24:28):
didn't I think of this? This is brilliant.
But other times they're like, oh, you're going to change this
and that. And I'm like, I don't think so.
So checkmate. And then you're going to get
stuck in this ridiculous sort oftheoretical academic discussion
about what may be the better thing when the reality is
there's no objective right and wrong at all.

(24:49):
There's what audiences might respond to or what there's not.
And, and like one of the things I learned, so I actually trained
first as a director for theatre before I started writing.
And I was always, it was drummedinto me again and again and
again by so many like directors that I worked for as an
assistant that if an actor ever comes to you and says, how
about, you know, can I try this bit of business in the next
scene? Or can I say the line like this

(25:11):
or whatever it is? You never discuss it with them.
In theory. You always are like, show it to
me. Let me see what it looks like.
You tell me what it feels like. Let's see how it affects the
energy of the scene. Because fundamentally, it
doesn't matter whether I'm like,oh, that's a good idea that that
might be interesting. We don't know.
Who knows, it has to get on its feet and and again, I don't

(25:31):
think it's a question of taking away.
I think that the traditional development process should work
alongside this and should just be it's almost like putting, I
don't know, concrete foundationsunder the development process
rather than so that so that it'salways based on something.
Because The thing is as well, ifyou put a project out, you know,
at a really early stage in, in this way that, yeah, again,

(25:53):
we're being cryptic again, but Iwill explain what it is in a
SEC. But if you start having project
and you're getting audience feedback all along, no one's
saying you have to go, you know,don't say you have to be
dictated by it. It's about being informed by
what audiences seem to be responding to.
And you can always still make the creative decision to to
override them on certain, certain aspects.

(26:14):
But again, you've just, you've got the information to make that
decision with rather than just debating it back and forth in
this really kind of sort of flimsy, pointless way.
Almost. Do you think as well it may help
avoid some of the class and sortof issues around access to the
arts and especially in TV development?
Because if you've not been trained or you don't have the

(26:35):
money for Final Draft and you can't write a script in a way
that formats into an industry standard or you can't, you've
not been taught how to do it. Because it is a very specific
thing. And I think we often get group
thinked into this idea that well, this script has the wrong
formatting so we're just going to throw that one out or they
don't have an agent so we're notlooking at that.
Do you I suppose like by making it cheaper almost or making it

(26:57):
more, you can try things out. You might see someone's talent
in a different way as well, which is much easier to spot
when you're not just reading a bit of paper sometimes I feel.
Exactly. And I think that's a hugely,
hugely important part of it thatthere are so many people there
that are excluded from the industry because, yeah, because
it costs a lot of money to whether it's go to film school

(27:17):
or even do you know, part time course at any of the the the
film schools or, you know, there's so many schemes and
things out there, but so many ofthem cost.
It's almost gotten to a point where it's capably, I think, or
even I actually had this debate with it was like a script
doctor. I think they're called somebody
in this state. So I know that's a slightly
different system. But he was talking about how,
Oh, you never ever. He was tweeting, I think, or not

(27:39):
tweeting the blue sky. Obviously I'm not tweeting
anymore, but some blue sky. He was talking about how I'll
never ever send a script out that is an industry ready.
And I was kind of going. So what you're saying is for
anyone to send a script into theindustry, they need to pay you a
few $100 first? Like that's, that's not right.

(28:00):
And it used to be like way, way back.
And when I first started getting, this is in the mid
2000s, most of the production companies would give you a
reasonable amount of feedback. You know, when you sent in even
a, a quote. I wouldn't, if there was a read
request, if they read your script, they would then, you
know, you would get like an e-mail with a couple of
paragraphs of, of feedback. And it really, really shocked me

(28:24):
actually when I put the first call for submissions out for
this project that I'm doing and every single person I was like,
that's just a thing that I'm going to do.
Hopefully there's no insane amounts.
There was quite a few submissions and I, I did just
make a commitment that I would give them each at least a few
lines to give them an idea of why I had turned it down and

(28:44):
maybe a couple of things to think about for the next draft.
And I got so many emails back going, Oh my God, this is the
first time anyone has like told me anything about my writing and
thank you. So, and like, to me that just
seems like the bare minimum. So if that's gone away, if
that's what you don't get from production companies anymore,
then then the only way you're getting any feedback, and I know

(29:06):
we're talking specifically aboutwriting, but it does apply to to
actors and to directors to a large extent as well.
Then it has become pay to play. You have to go on a course or
pay a script editor or a script doctor or whatever.
And I just, I think that is so fundamentally wrong.
And this is what I mean about this system not serving
audiences because they are missing out on some great

(29:29):
stories from people who do not have the wherewithal to get into
the industry as it is right now.And that's even before we get
into all of the, you know, working for free and not getting
paid for options anymore. And you know, I'm just talking
about getting yourself industry ready.
So the concept that I, I'm working with my solution, that
sounds really ominous for some reason.

(29:49):
But I think we need to use social media.
I think it's a massively under underused resource for any kind
of storytelling. As I mentioned earlier, I think
that social media fundamentally runs on social, on storytelling.
And so it is an absolutely just natural forum for for drama and
nobody seems to be using it for drama that I have found.

(30:11):
There's little bits and pieces here and there, but like as a
real kind of movement. So for the the Glasgow Telly
Festival, I'm looking for as many one minute pilots as I can
possibly get hold of from, from people at every level of the
industry. I'm like, you could have Baftas
coming out your ears or you could be just getting started,
do a one minute pilot in a social media format.

(30:34):
And I think that's really important because what we often,
you know, we do get self funded pilots and short films and all
that kind of thing. And I think the tricky thing is
that when something looks as though it should be a fully
funded drama production, if it'sin that format, but it doesn't
cost that money, subconsciously it kind of looks like it very
often. And so audiences, so people who

(30:55):
are out with the industry will just kind of flick past without
really paying attention to what it is.
So I think it's really importantto make it feel organically as
though it belongs on Reels or TikTok or YouTube or whatever.
It is basically essentially using the format like the office
use the fly in the wool format. So it's not about catfishing
anyone. It's about just sort of using
using that format. And I think that's it's, it's a

(31:18):
really important thing that the call is just for a one minute
pilot, nothing more. It shouldn't cost you any money
other than if you want to buy the actor paint afterwards.
You can use it with your own phone.
If you want to use market. If you've got market, I'm not
going to tell you not to do it, but I want it to be like as low
a barrier to entry as possible. And I'm really trying to kind of

(31:38):
reach out to people who have stories in them, who love telly,
who've got telly in them, who maybe they're not able to write
a full script and go through allthe the schemes and the unpaid
internships and all the rest of it.
But maybe they've got something brilliant that they could just
put together on on their phone with a pal or by themselves.
And yeah, so I think that's a really important part of it for

(32:01):
me. And, and the festival's sort of
running for four days, right? But as part of it, you're
basically going to, you've called like every pub in Glasgow
you can basically, right. And you're going to be showing
these one minute films Exactly. So whatever you'd call them, you
know, pilots, that's the word. Pilots, yeah.
Pilots. Yeah, the one minute pilots I'm
calling. So the idea is that it is and

(32:21):
it's a pilot in the original sense, a pilot kind of like
morphed to become the first episode at some point in the
last few decades, which it can be, but it doesn't necessarily
have to be. It used to be that you sometimes
you used to be able to do like an episode in the middle and it
was just to to show off the potential of what your idea
might be. And that's kind of what this is.
It's take a so one thing that's really important as well is I

(32:43):
think there's lots of opportunities for like arty
farty stuff. It's not my personal cup of tea.
This is about big, bold, ambitious commercial dramas.
I want stuff that you could see on HBO or Netflix or Sky or
whatever. So you take a big, massive idea.
It could be any genre that you can think of any, any tone.
The kind of thing that would if you were to shoot an entire

(33:04):
episode as a full drama production would be millions of
pounds and distill it down into a one minute or sort of I'll say
I'll accept up to 90 seconds if you really have something cool
into in a TikTok format. So it could be a person just
talking to the camera about what's going on with them.
They could be doing something atthe time, or they could just be
talking. It could be like a day in their

(33:25):
life vlog of AI don't know a spyor a soldier, or it could be
somebody I don't know, like filming secretly filming a
confrontation or something. They're going past in the
street. So anything, any of the kind of
content that you could see on ontech talk, which is kind of
anything. And yeah, all about distilling
it down into one minute and then, yeah, we're going to
gorilla screen them. And because a big part of what's

(33:48):
really important to me about thefestival is that it's a kind of
people's festival, is it? And I wanted to draw in
audiences who love telly who it would never enter their heads to
go to a short film screening because they're just like, well,
it's not. That's what's that.
I don't know what that is. Nothing's doing me.
Or who would feel intimidated bylike a red carpet premiere or
whatever. This is like a gritty Glasgow

(34:10):
down to air sort of festival. So I love the idea of taking
these stories to audiences. Where they are and where they're
going to be on the Saturday afternoon is in the pub.
So I have been speaking to loadsof pubs.
I am continuing to speak to more.
So if anyone knows of any pubs that have a screen, just the
screens where you would normallysee the football or whatever,
who might be open to screening abunch of these pilots throughout

(34:32):
the festival be over the four days.
And, and then the idea is we're going to have a, a website that
people will be able to like scanAQR code if they're like, oh,
that character is interesting. I want to hear more from that
character. So we'll also get like a little
bit of, again, it's not really feedback.
It's it's sort of its response, I suppose, as people are saying,
Oh, that that was interesting tome.

(34:54):
Or they might completely ignore it or or whatever in between,
which I think is hopefully it's going to be really exciting and
right, yeah, we'll see. We'll obviously we won't put it
on during any football games because, you know, we don't want
to start any fights. But hopefully I don't know.
Is there football still on in me?
I can't even tell you. The last weekend might be

(35:15):
actually not a lot. There'll be a few things
probably there. You go, well, we could do it at
halftime there. You go, you know, and there's
also lots of other events you'reputting on throughout this
festival as well. And just while people are
watching listen to this podcast,there's links to all the TV
festival stuff, all Claire's social media stuff is all below.
So, you know, click the links you want to find out more.

(35:36):
If you want to find a way to submit or just want to, you
know, find out more about clear and work etcetera, you know,
click below just now. But yeah, it's what do you have
the dates for the festival as well?
Just want to. Yeah, it's going to run from the
29th of May until the 1st of June.
So the 29th is a Thursday evening we're going to start and
then the Sunday afternoon and will be the the sort of finale

(35:57):
gala closing event, she says. Gala.
And people can get involved if they don't live in Glasgow,
further away as well. They can take submissions from
everywhere. Yeah, So the submissions will be
primarily Scottish, but of course that can mean anything
whether you live here, you're from here, you've got a
connection. I but yeah, but you don't have

(36:18):
to be physically in Glasgow, certainly.
And even if you're an audience member not physically in
Glasgow, everything's going to be streamed live, most likely to
YouTube. So you'll also be able to to
join into the whole thing, whether you can, whether you're
far away or just can't leave your house, you know, whatever
it is and you'll still be able to join in.
Very exciting, very exciting. Hello, it's Jamie here.

(36:39):
I hope you're enjoying this week's episode.
It's just a quick one for me to say that if you're listening to
the podcast on Apple, Spotify orwhatever platform you engage
with our show on, be sure to give us a follow or a subscribe
as it goes a long way into helping us grow and find new
listeners as well as helping youkeep up with all the latest
episodes and everything that's happening that just get a real
job. You can also support us by

(37:00):
subscribing to our patron page for the price of a cup of coffee
per month. All the money we make goes back
into the upkeep of the podcast. Thank you.
For your continued support and we hope you enjoy the rest of
today's episode. I want to sort of ask as well
because obviously this podcast all about creative careers.
You've have had a very interesting career.

(37:20):
You're doing interesting things and stuff.
I want to know a bit about you and stuff for the listeners.
So obviously a writer you'd worked in different things were
casting, producing, you know, you'd studied what you studied
abroad as well. You were at film school and
what, Vancouver or something I was, I was reading.
Yeah, yeah. Lots of things.
Yeah, I've actually come to realize over the last few weeks
that I've had this very weird checkered career with day jobs

(37:44):
and jobs in the industry and then jobs doing what I didn't
think I wanted to do. And I've come to realize that it
has very uniquely qualified me and nobody else to do this
festival and possibly nothing else because, yeah, so I so I
actually grew up abroad. I I'm from Glasgow originally,
but my dad's job moved us to France and then the States.
I went to France when I was eight and then 10 for the States

(38:07):
and I lived, spent most of my teenage years and then finally
London, where my family are actually all still based.
And, and then, yeah, as an adultI went to Vancouver for film
school and then Stockholm. And I just went there because I
was bored, didn't really want tolive in London anymore.
And I was redeeming The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.
So yeah, I kind of, I think for a long at the beginning of my
career, I, so I went to Lambda first.

(38:29):
I wanted to study. I started to be a theatre
director. That's what I kind of wanted to
do then. And then I worked and a whole
bunch of, I pretty much scattergunned a sort of empty CV
at pretty much every pub Theatrein London.
And I did that, worked in various sort of stage management
and assistant directing and things like that for about a
year and a half. And then very randomly got a job

(38:51):
in development at the Orange Tree Theatre in Richmond, where
ironically enough, my parents now live.
And I was like, I worked here 20years ago and it was just script
reading and I read scripts and then I, you know, took any ones
that were potentially promising to, you know, the, the theatre
directors. And that is what I think at that
point I was like, I think I might want to write.

(39:12):
I think there was something about the, the scripts.
I was in a lot of rehearsals at the time, either as some kind of
assistant stage management or asan assistant director.
And I found it really fascinating watching what actors
needed from scripts that might sound weird, but that was, I
love listening to useless conversations that happen in
rehearsals where someone's like,I'm not quite sure how to play
this. Like, it doesn't quite, you

(39:34):
know, it doesn't make sense to me.
And, and I need what do you think the writer was thinking
here and here? And the director would be sort
of speculating and sort of just watching all of the various, you
know, exercises and things. And it just, it really
interested me that idea of writing something for other
people to create from. And then when I had this first
job, just reading scripts and that was the big thing I was

(39:55):
always looking for was, you know, an interesting story and
all of that. But it was also, are there
characters that are worthy of someone else pushing their
talent into like, that was always like my really big thing.
And so it was around then. Do you know the honest truth of
how I ended up in Vancouver FilmSchool was I also had a day job

(40:15):
as a receptionist at this post production facility in Soho.
I would just answer the phones and, you know, give people
coffee and things like that as they came in.
And because it was, I hopes on Dean Street or something like
that in Soho. And quite often, if there's
tickets available for like, press shows, for Western plays,

(40:36):
they'll just go around and try and, like, fill up the audience
in the afternoon. So these couple of guys had come
in and said, look, does anyone want to come see this play
tonight? We've got a few tickets to fill
the audience. And I was like, yeah, sure, I'll
come. So I went along and it turned
out the play starred Jason Priestley, who was I was in who
you might actually be too young to know who he is, but he was in
at a show called Beverly Hills, 90210 when I was like 11 when

(40:57):
when I was in the States. And he was like my first love or
my second love after Jason Donovan.
Neighbors, to be totally honest,so he'd been like my guy
throughout all my my teenage years and he was in this play
and during the in the interval, I went to the bathroom and
overheard a woman like washing her hands, you know, the next
the next sink, talk to her friend about how blah, blah,

(41:19):
blah, because you know, he's Canadian.
He's from Toronto. And I just jumped in and went,
oh, he's from Vancouver actually, because I'd had like
the Jason Priestley story or, you know, I had read everything
and this was long before the Internet.
So it wasn't even like I could Google him.
I actually like bought magazine and books about him and I happen
to know he's from Vancouver. He went to Ladner High School

(41:39):
and they were like, Oh no, I think it's Toronto.
And I was like, it's Vancouver. And it got a little bit heated
to the point that like theatre security came in and told us to
she was a bit, she'd had a drink.
To be fair, I actually hadn't, but I just wasn't going to.
I should have just. You were so passionate.
You're like, I just know this isa fact.
Exactly. I was so passionate about it and

(42:01):
I was, yes. So it got it all got quite
heated and we had to leave and Inever saw the second-half.
So I still don't know how that play ends, but the next day at
work, I remember just being so like raging, but then also
thinking, Oh my God, what if I got that wrong?
Like she was so stubborn. And so I went on the then
newfangled Internet and I was terrified because I thought I

(42:22):
might get in trouble. I only used it to e-mail, like,
messages, like phone messages topeople.
And I didn't like I'd they even have Google.
Yeah, I don't even remember whatthe Ask Jeeves or something.
Anyway, I went on and I finally managed to search where does
Jason Priestley come from? And it came up bizarrely with
the, like list of, you know, search results confirmed he's

(42:43):
from Vancouver. And then there was a thing about
the Vancouver Film School and they happened to be accepting
applications for the writing, the very first writing for film
and TV program. And I applied that evening and I
moved to Vancouver two months later.
Wow, that's such an interesting origin story.
There you go. Jason Priestley.
There you got it. Opened all these doors.

(43:04):
So thank you, Jason. There, Whatever.
Well, exactly. And you know something.
But ten years later, he read a feature that I was putting
together and that I'd written and we wanted him to attach for
like the male lead. And honestly, like, I still have
the e-mail from his agent saying, well, Jason, read your
script over the weekend and really enjoyed it.
And I was like, right, my career's over.

(43:24):
That's. Right.
I'm going to frame this now, yeah.
Totally. I don't need anything.
I mean, the film never happened.In the end.
We can't get the financing. But I was like, I don't care.
Jason read my script. That's that's all.
That's all I need to happen. It's fine.
And then from there, you've sortof done, you know, you're an
offer as well. You'd written lots of things.
I mean, it's hard to get into somebody's entire career.
And I want to our podcast episode, but it's interesting to

(43:45):
get a bit of an overview. Oh, totally, especially when I
tell a 20 minute story for everysingle, every single question.
But yeah, no super briefly. So after as I went off to
Vancouver for a year and and then they have a program in
Canada where if you or they did,then I don't know if they still
do. Where if you study in a certain
top like subject, you can then get a visa to essentially do

(44:05):
work experience in the same sortof subject area, like kind of
continuing your your studies. So I got to work in Vancouver,
which was great because that wasI don't know if it, I don't
think it is still quite to the same extent, but it was like
they called it the Hollywood of the north at the time.
And like X-Files were shooting and Supernatural was shooting
and Battlestar Galactica and like all these like huge, big

(44:26):
American series. So I got to go and just I would
do like a week or two here and there in production offices or
casting did quite a lot of, you know, standing outside sets with
a high vis vest waving, you know, actors into add those cars
into the set or the location or what have you.
So which that was really, reallygood fun.
And then my visa ran out and I ended up back in London and then

(44:49):
I kind of continued doing the same thing.
I knew by then because I, I guess I trained in the American
system. I knew I wanted to be a
showrunner. I'm just gonna I guess what
writer producer over here. And so I knew that I needed a
bit of a production background as well as like developing my
own scripts. Of course we don't have and we
still don't really. Some people will say there's
writers rooms. I know they exist, but we don't
have. Not really.
We, we run them out of production companies like for

(45:11):
certain projects mostly, but they're not really at standard
things still because they cost well, I, I'd love to say that's
not a reason not to do them, butthey see them as a cost.
So they yeah. They do exactly.
And either way, either, and you're right, they are, they're
on a project by project basis, which is fine and great and
maybe it's a start. But what they have in the US,
it's a whole system where you can leave film school and you

(45:32):
can get your first job as a writer's assistant.
Then you can work your way up various rooms.
And then by the time you get to a point of like pitching your
own stuff, you can have, you know, 5710 years of experience
in a writers room and then you're qualified to run your own
writers room. And we do not have anything like
that system. Even if you've been in one or
two, you're still just kind of making it up.

(45:54):
But so I kind of was like, well,I'm going to have to sort of
invent that for myself. And so again, I just sent my
like, still fairly empty CV to every single production company
in London. And just a few of them go back
to me and said, yeah, you can come and do this for six weeks.
So you can come and do that. And that was how, again, I ended
up working in like production offices as a sort of general PA
on set. And I did quite a lot of

(46:16):
casting. I got into, there's this casting
assistant bank where again, you just sort of sign up and if a
casting director needs extra help for, you know, a big
project for however long you go along, it's like temping
basically. So did, yeah, millions and
millions of of all of that whileat the same time writing.
And I got my first agent and waslike shortlisted for the BBC

(46:38):
Writers Academy, which in those days was just all about the
soaps. And I was sitting there going
like this is great, except I don't really watch any of the
BBC soaps. And so I don't know how are you
saying that I can't get into theindustry unless I because they
have been talking about how you had to have a really genuine
passion for Casualty or EastEnders or whatever.
And I was like, well, but if I don't, and I'm not saying

(46:58):
there's anything wrong with themat all, I just didn't happen to
watch them. And it felt like, yeah, it's, it
felt like a little bit of a sortof door closed kind of thing.
And that was when I got fed up with London and I randomly
bought a one way ticket to Stockholm, which turned out to
be a really, really good move because that was around the time
of the Girl with a Dragon Tattoofilm.

(47:18):
So there was loads of American interest.
It was a weird reason to move toto a country.
I was reading The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo and I was like,
looks like a really cool place spot when we take it.
And because the those films had done quite well internationally,
all of a sudden there was quite a lot of American production
companies that were interested in Swedish projects.
So I managed to work for quite afew years like translating pitch

(47:42):
decks and writing the English dialogue and being a sort of
semi translator, which I wouldn't say it was anything
like writers room experience, but it was a really good
experience working with other people's writing.
And I sort of took on a bit of adevelopment role where I was
like, OK, that character isn't really going to translate to an
American audience or or vice versa, which it was fantastic

(48:03):
experience. But then I had a whole bunch of
projects set up at different production companies and big
production companies, productioncompanies that, you know, if
you've seen anything Scandi Noirs or whatever you will, you
will, you will have seen things that they've made.
So I remember thinking, right, this is it.
I've been working in the industry for like 12 years at

(48:24):
this point. I've done a million bits and
pieces. I've been all my different specs
and so on. And this is this is going to go.
And in the space of, I think it was about a week and 1/2, every
single one of the projects just fell apart for like no reason
the way that they always do. I think 2 didn't get Commission
and then one, the producer lost the job and then a production

(48:47):
company then got bought over andeverything fell out.
And I just remember having this moment of like, I can't, I can't
do this. I can.
And for months, I would cycle past one of the production
companies giving them the finger.
And I remember thinking when I realized I I don't like the
person that the product, the film industry is turning me
into. And so then I went and got a job

(49:09):
as a daycare teacher in Stockholm.
And that's when I wrote my firstnovel.
That was interesting. It's good it's a you've done so
many different places and stuff as well.
What's what I want to take away from that and someone I wanted
to ask you when I'm pat you on tonight as well as you've always
been something that's kind of been a go getter and even with
this TV festival, you like decided at Christmas, you're

(49:30):
going to put it on and you're doing it in May.
So you just make things happen. That's not always easy for
people. I mean, I I've try, I'm trying
to become that person. I think I've been hard on
myself. I've managed to do this podcast
for nearly five years. Like you know, we're in the 5th
year anyway, it's not quite there yet, but do you know what
I mean? It's like making things happen,
but like that's not always easy for a lot of creative people.
You're also quite entrepreneurial, especially the

(49:52):
way that you're putting on the TV festival and stuff.
Do you think naturally creative people often aren't
entrepreneurially enough or it'sa skill we don't lean on?
Because I do think having a business mind, I'm trying to
teach myself that or having a more of a selling yourself into
things as a skill and stuff. What what, what do you make of
that as? Do you think creative people
need that more or it's underused?

(50:12):
You know, in a way, I don't think it should be necessary
because I think, you know, as you say, this is something
that's natural to me. It's just the way my brain works
and it's something I enjoy. I love going out and pitching to
people and getting people excited about things and, you
know, putting things together. And so that works for me.
So I should definitely do it. But I actually, again, I think

(50:34):
it goes back to this broken system that we're asking so many
people in the industry right now, creative people
particularly, to do things that are not their areas of
expertise. And I actually, I don't mean to
say that people shouldn't stretch themselves and explore
different area of expertise, because sometimes you don't know
if you're good at good at something until you try it.
So you absolutely, definitely, Ithink should always do that.

(50:54):
But at the same time, you know, it's things like, see, when I
started you, there was no, I didn't have to write pitch decks
or even, you know, you do an outto me, outlines and treatments
should be like a writing tool. It's how I explore and I build
the story. The idea of having to write all
of this like promotional material and like that's a
totally different skill. And that's producers should

(51:17):
really do that or people in the production company should be
doing that. And we put it more and more in
writers. And, and this is kind of sort of
my whole thing where you could have an incredible idea for a TV
series, but if you don't have a marketing brain to be able to
write these incredible pitch decks, we might never get to see
that series. And I think that is, is really
wrong. So as I say, I don't want to, I

(51:38):
don't want to come across like I'm encouraging people not to
bother, not to get out their comfort zone or not to like try
different things because you absolutely should.
But also the, the system that I'm trying to build, I'm
starting with the, with the, thefestival is, I think we should
try and get back to people doingwhat they are really good at.
And for a lot of creatives, thatis being creative and there

(52:01):
should be a system, there shouldbe a business around them.
And that is like kind of gettinginto sort of the old studio
system. Obviously there's a lot that was
wrong with the old studio system.
I'm talking about the 30s and 40s in Hollywood.
But there was a lot that kind ofworked about it, that there was
this business around creatives and creatives were told to be
creative because that's what we're good at.
And so, so yes and no, I guess is, is my answer really that I

(52:27):
think that getting out your, your comfort zone and trying all
the stuff is always is worthwhile as a creative or as
anything. But really, I think the actual
answer is that we need to rebuild the business and the
systems in a way that allow creative people to do what
they're really good at. No, that's a really interesting
answer because I suppose the fact that we have to be so

(52:48):
hustle called, you know, that work, work, work all the time
and stretch us out is that we'rebeing pragmatic in the system
we're in, but it isn't actually sustainable because like it's
fucking exhausted. Like I don't, you know, you
absolutely having to self start a lot of things and I enjoy that
as well. I mean, there's a balance to it.
As I say, it's, it's cool building stuff.
It's cool, like thinking outsidethe box and coming up with
solutions and trying to like make things happen.

(53:09):
That's fun. But that also doesn't work for
everyone. As you say, like I have lots of
friends who are more introvertedor quite shy and like they just
aren't able to themselves because it's not it's not their
skill set. So they're actually excluded
from the industry because of that.
Like I feel like everything I'vebeen able to do in my career, I
mean, the majority of that probably only come from that
extra hustle work as opposed to like my actual talent OR my

(53:31):
actual like ability not putting myself down.
I do have that as well. But like I think it's, I've had
to do that to even get what I have.
And that's not even necessarily secure either.
So it's a feel for people that don't have those aren't able to
do that because they don't have the confidence or the skills or
whatever. It's it's kind of bullshit.
And, you know, again, you know, to some extent, if that applies
to every industry, that the people who are really good at

(53:52):
job interviews are going to get hired more than the people who
may be amazing at doing the job.So yeah, there's like, there's
just some extent it's like, OK, that's just kind of life.
But I do think it's got to an extreme in the industry where,
you know, people are doing like 5.
It's even things like, obviouslyit's moving away from the topic
of writing, but I think, I thinkself tapes are horrifying

(54:14):
because every actor I know is having to spend a lot of invest
a lot of their own time into directing themselves into
lighting themselves, into editing themselves, none of
which are actually skills that you need as an actor.
And it's just absolute. It's and it's just it's become,
again, it's because there isn't the same money in casting that

(54:36):
there used to be because they'rein the same money and
everything. And so now they're like, well,
you just do it and actors do it because they're not going to get
seen otherwise. They've got no choice.
Again, it's going back to that enforce Stockholm syndrome for
we all just do what you need to do to get into the industry or
to get given parts once you're in the industry or jobs or
whatever. But if you're really bad at

(54:59):
editing or if you are, you know,you get these like one page or
two pages with no context whatsoever.
And you don't just so happen to deliver the line the way the
director has randomly imagined the character might deliver the
line when they've given you no direction whatsoever.
You're not getting parts. And you could be incredible.

(55:19):
And and so that absolutely drives me nuts.
Again, as a former casting assistant, I'm like, yeah, I
would, I would see the end of self tapes.
I think it's just an awful, awful system.
And I rant about it quite a lot.And the same applies to, you
know, again, directors shouldn'thave to self fund entire shorts
in order to get anywhere when funding is not their area of

(55:42):
expertise. And you know, again, that goes
back to the class thing. Some people have got parents
who'll give them a few grand to,you know, get started with a
short. Some people do not have that
background. And so we'll never get to see
their talent. And you know, again, it goes
back to this thing that I feel as though, yes, the industry
isn't working for those of us who are in it.
And that is absolutely, you know, jobs and training and, and

(56:03):
getting a new generation of talent is a hugely important
thing. But also for an industry to
function, we need to be, you know, concerned with the output
as well. We need to be, are we serving
our, you know, market? I don't know, it sounds a bit
too businessy, but our market, which is the audience, and I
don't think we are, I don't think we're giving them the
stories that we could be giving them.
And we're don't think we're giving them the stories that

(56:25):
that they actually want. I think they want much more
interesting stories than all toomany commissioners give them
credit for. And and that's that's that's why
you know, when I say the the Glasgow Tele Festival is about
starting a revolution. It's, it's looking, it's fixing
all of that and it's about fundamentally changing all of

(56:45):
these inequalities that are justnot only, not only bad from a
fairness point of view, which ishugely important, but also just
inefficient and not, it's not even good business, you know
what I mean? It's not working for anyone on
any level whatsoever. And so it it has to be changed
and it's all starting now in Glasgow.

(57:07):
No, it's really exciting and stuff just to sort of expand
that as well, like talk about revenue streams and how they're
like, do you think we are fail? Like the TV industry is also
failing as a business as well. Do you think we could do more?
What things could we do as a business to make more money for
the TV industry? Like what could they do?
What do you think? So, so efficiency of systems is
a huge, is a huge part of it. I do think that budgets are

(57:30):
absurdly bloated at the moment. Like I, I remember when I
started getting excited about the thought of a, of a pilot
that an episode that was 500 grand.
You'd be like, Oh my God, that'sso much money.
You couldn't do anything for that.
And of course that's economic toa certain extent, but there's,
there's so many other bits that aren't necessary.
So to me, just streamlining and,and keeping things really

(57:52):
efficient and keeping things because the story is all that
matters, the stories all audiences ever care about.
And the other thing is, though, it's also just moving with the
times a little bit and, and drama in particular is so bad
for that, you know, drama, it pretended that that streaming
wasn't happening for so many years, You know, when like
music, I'm not saying that they they've responded to like

(58:15):
Spotify and so on particularly well, but it did kind of respond
and it did start sort of like, you know, working with them a
little bit. And we just sort of pretended
that streaming wasn't happening for for a long, long time.
And now we're pretending that linear advertising is still a
viable business model and it's not and it hasn't been for
probably quite some time like I don't know that's.

(58:35):
Actually partly what's caused the downturn in a lot of our
terrestrial channels and stuff at the moment.
That's why a lot of, you know, partly why Channel 4 have had to
sack like, what, 20% of their workforce so.
Exactly. And why they then had to have a
Commission increase for I think it's just started up again so
well over a year. Exactly.
So that is and I think that is actually a much stronger model

(58:56):
than descriptions. The problem was subscriptions is
that it's finite. Eventually everyone who's going
to subscribe to Netflix is and then they have no more money and
which is kind of what's. Already and the other thing as
well is they then have to go to the ad model anyway.
So you're subscribing to watch something with adverts?
Well, you used to just watch anyway, so you're.
Doing both exactly, exactly. And, and The thing is like

(59:17):
brands and stories have gone together hand in hand again,
since the very, very beginning of, of Hollywood, people were
working with with brands to finance films from the teens
onwards. And obviously soap operas.
The term comes about because it was like very liquid that
finance the first few orders. It's very but like an American

(59:38):
version of like detergents and stuff.
And so that was a really early form of branded content.
So it was basically none of the stories were necessarily about
anyone. It wasn't like product
placement. No one was necessarily doing
stories about detergent. It was stories that appealed to
housewives who would buy detergent.
So that I think is one of the most exciting, like kind of

(59:59):
growth areas and unscripted havebeen really good at jumping on
that. And there's so many like JD
Sports have a whole YouTube channel that's now a massive
part of like their business. It's so successful.
So there's loads of unscripted and factual content that are
kind of jumping on that. And again, drama is still going,
Oh, no, no, no, no. We want traditional commissions
and, and, you know, and, and tariffs.

(01:00:21):
And whatnot. And I'm like, yeah, but there
aren't any tariffs anymore. No one's got any money to give
you a tariff. So you're so pretending that
there's something anti creative or being snobbish about working
together with brands who, let's face it, it were it's a natural
fit. They want to get to the general
public. So do we we should be working
together. So I think that's a revenue

(01:00:41):
model that is massively, massively underused at the
moment. And that's, that's it's going to
have to change because there is no other money.
That's really interesting. So it's good to talk about.
I've only got a few more questions before you start to
wrap things up, but one of them is what's the biggest lesson
you've learned in your career? Obviously you had a very
wide-ranging career, so I'm interested on your answer for

(01:01:03):
this. Oh, that's such a good question.
Probably the biggest lesson, andit's a kind of general life
lesson and it's a bit cheesy, isprobably to trust my gut.
I spent a lot of time in, in my 20s and my first few years, you
know, I whether it was taking notes that I knew we're going to
fundamentally change or ruin my story.

(01:01:24):
But a producer told me so I thought they knew better and I
am. So I went and I changed it.
And then they were like, Oh no, I don't like it anymore.
And I'd be like, no, I know because you're not changed it
or, or even just second guessingmyself when it came to applying
for certain things or going in certain directions.
And that's again, it's probably something I've learned in
general life that I'm not sayingI'm always right, but I think I

(01:01:47):
am always right for me. And I know what's what, what the
right the way forward is for me.And I'm so kind of like learning
to, to trust that and just to gowith it and to trust that it'll
work. Also.
I probably actually the and it'skind of the other side of the
same thing is also that it's notthat big a deal if you fail.
Like it's really not like as much as you know, obviously, I

(01:02:09):
think hopefully made clear, I'm hugely passionate about TV and
storytelling and I think it's, it's massively important.
But do you know what if if I, ifa couple of the events at the
Glasgow Telly Festival, audiences hate the scripts,
Nobody will die. It will be fine.
We will rewrite them or we'll come up with other ones and we
will, we'll move. That it's a failure is an

(01:02:30):
inherent part of creativity. Dying on your arse I think is a
really important stage of creativity that we we kind of,
we protect ourselves from and wekind of don't really get
opportunity to do it enough at the moment again, because we
don't go out to audiences early enough in the industry at the
moment. So yeah, so it's kind of two
sides of the same coin. Coin is don't be too afraid.

(01:02:51):
Don't be afraid of failure. Just go with your gut and
whatever happens, happens. My sort of the second last
question for you and it's I really liked your lessons.
I think there's some great stuffthere is like how can we sort of
convince commissioners or the established industry to adopt
some of the things we talked about tonight?
Is there a way how, how can you,because you kind of are you're

(01:03:12):
speaking to these people, you'rezooming them out, you're
emailing them and stuff. So you probably have a a bit
more of a knowledge on this thanme, but how can we change their
mind? How can we convince them that to
look out of the Stockholm syndrome and to look out of the
system we're in? I think we basically have to put
not Even so much our money whereour mouth is, but ourselves
where our mouths are. That was that doesn't make

(01:03:33):
sense, but I think you know whatI mean.
Yeah, we need we need to show them.
So one thing as I said at the very beginning of all of this
that I have found really, reallyexciting is actually how
receptive the industry that I'vespoken to so far.
And I have been a little bit careful about who I've spoken to
because there are some people that I know are just going to be
resistant. And I'm like, that's fine.
You can come and catch up once we're once we're established.

(01:03:57):
But I, I think there, I think this is the time to do this.
I think even trying to do this acouple of years ago, people were
still feeling like it was working.
But I do think there is enough of a feeling like something has
to change that they're much morereceptive to the solution that I
would have even thought. So that's a really positive
thing. But other than that, I mean,
it's really exactly what I'm saying about any type of

(01:04:19):
creativity. You have to get it on its feet
and you have to show them. I think that I can talk and I
can talk people into this new way of working and they'll go,
OK, OK, OK, Brill, fantastic. And they'll get very excited
when they're speaking to me and then they'll go away and they'll
think about all the negatives. So that's really what the
festival is all about is becauseI could, I could tell people my
solution and I can maybe even doone or two projects.

(01:04:41):
But this festival is about launching a whole new way of
doing things in a really high profile, impactful sort of way
that they won't be able to ignore them.
That's really the object of the festival, more than you know,
I'd love to get commissions for a couple of the projects that I
really, really believe in. I think that I think we
definitely will get that kind ofattention.

(01:05:02):
I think it's going to be a greatthing just for audiences, for
the people of Glasgow. I think it's going to be really,
really good fun and it's going to get loads of people like
connecting community. I think Telly's is all about
community, people talking about stories and and bonding over
stories. And I think that's really what's
going to happen over that weekend.
So there's loads of exciting things that are going to happen
with the festival but most importantly in some ways it's

(01:05:24):
that the industry is not going to be able to ignore it.
That's what it's all about, and I think that's probably the only
way that's going to make them sit up and take notice.
No, it's exciting and it's no, it's, it's good to also think
positively, positively as well. And again, just to reiterate a
lot of what we're talking about tonight, we are not blaming the
existing industry and the peoplein it.
Most everyone, as you said, theywant to do a good job.

(01:05:46):
They're trying to keep their jobs, they're trying to work.
They love what they do. It's just it's hard when you're
in fighting flight as well to like look outside and stop and.
Exactly. And it's hard when you're on the
inside. Like I think, you know, this is
kind of what I mean. But I've got a quite unique
perspective on it because I've been sort of around the edges of
the industry for such a long time.
I've never really been deeply init.

(01:06:07):
In some ways I've kind of dippedmy toe in it and then got
chucked out again. And then because I was away, you
know, being a an author for seven years, I've kind of got
this sort of perspective, I've got sort of an outsider's
perspective, which I think is isquite important.
And it's quite crucial to this because if I was going to work
in the BBC every single day, I don't think I'd be thinking or

(01:06:28):
be quietly maybe to myself thinking along these lines.
But I wouldn't because you don'tstep out of what you're what's
working. If it's working for you on a
day-to-day basis, you're not thinking.
So yeah, no, it's not about blaming any individuals.
If I had their jobs, I would do their jobs too.
More than likely. Maybe not.
I don't. Yeah, no, I think I would
probably, or I do a version of them at least.

(01:06:49):
That's why I think it's really important to get sort of fresh
perspectives in. And I do think that people will
be a lot more receptive, as I say, they already are, but even
more so once we kind of show them the the potential and the
prospectives and just the untapped talent.
You know, we've all heard 1000 times that Scotland is just too
small a talent pool. That's why we have to.

(01:07:12):
I mean, if you ever looked at the credits of pretty much every
Glasgow series from how many Scottish writers, how many
Scottish directors, maybe one ortwo here or there.
And, and the reason that they give us again and again is that
there's just not enough of a talent pool because there's
literally not enough people. And I'm always a bit like, OK,
but how many like world famous bands have we got from Scotland

(01:07:33):
or how many world famous Canadians or actors?
Why, why would we have this likesort of hole, I guess in talent?
And we don't, we just we're not tapping into the potential of
the talent that there is in Scotland.
And that's, I mean, that's, it'sa kind of, that's a whole other
aspect of the festival that the,the two things very much sort of
go together for me. The system is broken.

(01:07:54):
The system needs to be fixed. And also the system is really
failing Scottish talent in particular, which is hugely
untapped and audiences who are not getting to see these
incredible stories that but theywill, they will not.
Again, not again, to see enough of ourselves represented on
screen either. And like, yeah, you know,
completely. And again, talked about the
Scotland thing so much in this podcast.

(01:08:15):
So it's important to mention it.As I say, it's always really
hard to cover everything. And and they have sort of I know
I think is brilliant and I thinkwe do need to tell those stories
and stuff as well. And final question, we always
ask the closing question on the show is just, but what would you
advice be to anyone that wants to sort of get into the crew
industry, that wants to get intotelly like, you know, thinking
about yourself 20 odd years ago,like at the start, Like what
would you what advice would you give to people now that are

(01:08:37):
starting out? So I guess so 2 bits of advice.
I think the first one would be something that was told to me at
drama school, which is if you can think of anything else that
you could possibly do with your life, do that.
And it's only when you're absolutely stuck with this
because, because even if we fix it, it's still going to be
rubbish. You know what I mean?

(01:08:58):
Like that's just the nature of creativity.
It drives you bonkers. Nobody is completely happy when
they're a creative. In fact, I used to work like,
see when I went to therapy when I was in my late 30s, I remember
saying, see, if I get too happy,I'm not going to write anymore.
So like there is, I think there's always a bit of like
angst and frustration. And even once we have fixed the
industry in the way that I know we will, and not everyone's

(01:09:20):
going to get a fair shot becausethat's just the nature of life.
So yeah. So unless you're absolutely
addicted to being a creative andto being a screen creative, go
and do literally anything else. But if you are, and if you are
one of us, firstly, I'm so, so sorry.
And secondly, secondly, I'm alsogoing to echo a piece of us, I

(01:09:41):
believe George Lucas said, whichis somehow if you have this in
you, then somehow, whether it's you get involved in something
like the Glasgow Telly Festival or you find somebody else doing
something equally bonkers that suits you better, just keep
doing it. Don't take no for an answer.
Get onto YouTube and film, you know, get an actor, pal, and

(01:10:01):
just get things happening, get things on their feet, get active
things, try things out in front of audiences, have them go,
that's rubbish, I don't get it. And then and think, Oh well,
what's rubbish about it? Oh, I know I could have done
like this and I could have done like that.
Get active, get doing things, and yeah, just kind of make it
happen. Ryan Well Claire, thank you

(01:10:22):
very, very much for your time tonight.
Glasgow Film Festival is runningfrom 29th of May to the 1st of
June. Links and all that in the show
notes, You know, really excitingand really lovely to chat to you
about ways we can change the industry and get some optimism
as well. Because a lot of the episodes
we've done this are vitally important.
But they are bleak and it is a bleak time.
But I think it's important to try and have some hope amongst
all that as well. So thank you for everything

(01:10:44):
you're doing and good luck with the festival.
Welcome. Thank you very much for having.
Me Thank you very much for tuning into this week's episode.
That was the brilliant Claire Duffy.
Thank you again to her for her time.
Be sure to check out the GlasgowTV Festival.
I don't normally do outros but Itotally forgot to record this in
the intro and we'd already put the edit together.
But I wanted to quickly say as well that next Monday, Monday,

(01:11:05):
the 31st of March, I am hosting AQA for a new film which is
called Time Travel is Dangerous.And it is on at the Showcase
Cinema in Glasgow at 7:00 PM. And some of the cast and people
involved in the film will be around to chat with me at the
end of the film about how it wasmade and various other things.

(01:11:25):
So if you're about in Glasgow onMonday night, fancy coming
along, I'll be there. Feel free to come up and speak
to me as well after you've seen the film.
Always nice to meet our listeners in real life.
So yeah, that's on Monday at 7:00 PM called Time Travel.
It's Dangerous. And it's also going to be
hitting cinemas next week acrossthe UK.
Thank you very much for listening and have a lovely
week.

All Episodes

Ep. 163 – 'The TV Industry Is Broken, How Do We Fix It?' with Claire Duffy

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist

Crime Junkie

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 163 – 'The TV Industry Is Broken, How Do We Fix It?' with Claire Duffy