April 8, 2025 • 63 mins
This week on Just Get A Real Job, I’m joined by the brilliant Robert Softley Gale – a Scottish theatre-maker, who’s spent over two decades championing inclusivity and accessibility in the arts.
As Artistic Director of Birds of Paradise – Scotland’s leading disability-led theatre company – Robert has reshaped the conversation around representation, storytelling, and what theatre can be. In 2024, he was recognised in The List Hot 100 for his powerful contributions to the industry.
We talk about why disability should never be a barrier to working in the arts, and how Robert’s work continues to break down outdated ideas around access, casting, and creativity.
In this episode, we chat about:
- 🎭 30 years of Birds of Paradise
- 🌟 Robert’s creative journey
- 🎨 Making the arts more accessible
- 📖 Telling authentic stories
- 🎬 Improving disability representation in casting
- 🤔 Why discomfort keeps you creatively sharp
- 💡 Advice for navigating theatre in 2025
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If you care about theatre, storytelling, or building a more inclusive creative industry – this one’s for you.
🎧 Tune in now wherever you get your podcasts – and don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and share!
Robert Softley Gale:
Birds of Paradise Theatre Company: https://www.boptheatre.co.uk/
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🌍 Visit our website: https://linktr.ee/Justgetarealjobpodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Hello, I am Jamie McKinley, and you are listening to another
episode of Just Get a Real Job. Thank you as always for
listening. This is your first time as well.
Welcome to the show. Thank you for tuning in.
I'm really excited to put this week's episode out.
We recorded this one back in January, just at the start of
the year, so it's about time we put this one out.
And it is an absolute pleasure to welcome on the show Robert
(00:26):
Softly Gale, who is the artisticdirector of Birds of Paradise
Theatre and he is a pioneer in Scotland and was one of the
list's top 100 artists last yearas well.
The work Roberts done over the last 20 years or so is
remarkable. And Birds of Paradise are one of
the UK and one of Scotland's leading disability for your
companies as well. And not only do they make
(00:46):
brilliant theatre, the work they've done around access and
getting more disabled representation and disabled
voices into the creative industries has been remarkable.
And it's a really important episode, the really enjoyable
chat. And Robert was a great
character. So I was very funny and very
honest and he had some great opinions on things.
It was really interesting to pick his brain about the
business side of the industry aswell.
(01:08):
Of course, he's a CEO, he's an artistic director of a theatre
company. So as well as chatting about the
creative stuff, it was really interesting to get that side of
it as well and to hear about hisexperiences and opinions on the
state of the industry, where we're at with representation and
disability, particularly in theatre and in the wider
industry. So it was a really enjoyable
episode to record. And yeah, loved having Robert on
(01:29):
the show. So so I hope you enjoy this
week's episode. And if you are enjoying the show
overall as well, please share uson social media.
Tell people to listen. You can subscribe to our YouTube
channel. It just get a real job.
If you're watching there, pleasegive the video a like.
If you're listening on Spotify, Apple or any other podcast and
platform, please subscribe there.
Please share the show. All the usual stuff.
But honestly, it goes a long wayin helping us grow and find new
(01:52):
listeners. And yeah, really appreciate and
support and got lots of excitingthings planned for the rest of
the year. But yes, without much further
ado, this is episode 165 of the brilliant Robert Softly Go.
(02:16):
Just. Get a real job, Robert, How you
doing? It's a pleasure to have you on.
Just get a real job and you're the CEO, the artistic director
of Birds of Paradise Theatre. Last year, you just celebrated
30 years, one of the sort of leading disability theater
companies in Scotland and the leading theater company itself.
(02:39):
It's a pleasure to have you on the podcast.
Thank you for joining us today. Thank you for having me on.
Thank you. How are you anyway?
Do you want to sort of kick off the episode?
Do you want to introduce yourself to our listeners?
I mean, you're in the lists top 100 in Scotland and stuff.
You're quite a well known figurein the creative industry.
So someone I've been wanting to have on the show for a while and
(03:00):
I'm I'm thrilled to have you, but do you want to introduce
yourself for our listeners? Yeah, sure.
I mean, I guess yeah, I've I've been working in the afternoon
for about 25 years for the films.
We get yours because you I go through that old, but the oldest
man and and yeah, I in a way I never plan to be involved in
(03:25):
Sega. I, I grew up and I cross the
actual family, but as a decayable young person, I
thought, oh, there's no way thatI'll get a job in the theater.
We can. It's not realistic.
Cut me back in the 90s, it was agood idea to for a guy with a
(03:48):
guy to be working in theater. It just wouldn't happen back
then. And then I guess things just
happened. Great guy.
I wasn't getting public speakingand I got approached the
company, Edinburgh Cook Seeker Workshop and they can't be
(04:11):
coming or getting for the company.
And at that point I, I'd never be on stake and never be in
vogue really. But I was cranky, I was cocky.
I was very confident. I thought, yeah, why not get
that go never get coming, never get anything like that.
But that thing Yeah. And so when I guess I got the
(04:36):
job and that wasn't when you come back.
This was great because you got ayear crew when the the crafts
learn about how to beyond how tohow to make that work.
And then from the other girls came up, I I began to feel
(04:57):
answering that girl. I began to you begin to get work
and get to know people. And then there's a 25 years
breaker. Most go, go doing it, you know,
weird. I went back and go, I don't
quite know how that happened, but I'm quite glad to get.
(05:18):
So yeah. Well, lots of hard work, lots of
talent. You're all have all helped that.
But I didn't go go a lot of luck, you know, there ain't go a
lot of good folk singing, being and right place and right came
and you know, there's a lot of like welfare.
(05:41):
Yeah, But I think what I've learned from doing this show for
over nearly, you know, nearly coming up, this is our fifth
year of doing it. But from interviewing so many
people is I think often, I mean,I'm bad for some time saying I'm
just really lucky. And I do feel lucky.
But I do think as well, you makeyour own luck through hard work
and you create those opportunities through what you
do. So sometimes I feel like as
creatives where we always sort of caveat things by saying we're
(06:03):
quite lucky and it almost feels like we're putting ourselves
down by saying that. So I always try and think about
that. I think Oakland crack's got his
thing, you know? I think I've got his people.
Whenever the Yeah, I worked veryhard and This is why I got with
him today. It's not really a nature, but I
(06:23):
think it is a combination of luck and making the reclaim.
Yeah. There's so many things that come
into play. Yeah, completely, completely.
There's so much in your first answer, Robert, I kind of want
to unpack as well. You were talking about growing
(06:43):
up in the 90s with a disability feeling like theatre wasn't like
a sort of viable career. I mean, this podcast called Just
Get Rude. It was all about that idea of
people working in the arts not thinking like, you know, a
career and it's possible in people's pathways.
But like, I suppose to start, what do you think the
differences are between then andnow?
Because obviously you work with a lot of up and coming work
creatives through Birds of Paradise, especially around
(07:06):
disability and things. Do you think it's easier and
maybe now 30 years later than itwas when you were growing up?
And because, of course, there's still many barriers facing
artists today, but how, what's your sort of feelings on that?
I mean, it's definitely easier. There's there's more
opportunities and more pathways.I mean like yes, they'll get I
(07:27):
met with it because she will pray right And I'll think of
them about how her bag of film because we couldn't offer them a
job right now because we haven'tget the job offer them, I think
and we can't get in the you know, there's about 4K disable
protection Scotland now who I could live straight away and go
(07:50):
not that they're all you know, at the cop of the game that
they're all developing and cab working quite right.
Yeah, when I was growing up there were not fucking you see,
we'll play right in Scotland like that wasn't a thing.
So I look at that and go yeah, we have come a long way.
We have we've got a lot we've got a long week ago, but we'll
(08:15):
we'll yeah, we'll come a long way.
I think a lot of it is comfortable moguls.
So when I grew up, there were nocable book on TV and film or,
you know, there were no. So of course I didn't imagine
myself in there because I didn'tsee any brigade groups like me
(08:38):
in there. And now, you know, you've got
commission's, you get all those songs who've got cable
characters free by cable characters.
That's a big thing yeah it's notso big.
It's not so big because non disabled people and then seeing
(09:00):
disabled people on TV and they're relaxing that it's not a
big deal that you know, that being disabled, you know over
me, it's a big deal. But in other ways you can get on
with it and you make it work. So I think the the role like TV
filming play in normal action disability has been massive.
(09:27):
Completely. I, I think is that what you're
saying though, If you don't see something represented, then it
doesn't feel possible for you. And I think like from the
outside it does look like there's more of that on screen
and more it's more talked about as well.
So it feels more like normalizedand you know, like opportunities
will be equal for everyone. No, completely.
But I think there's obviously, as you say, there's still a lot
(09:47):
of work to do. And I mean, I'm neurodivergent,
I'm dyslexic and dyspractic and I do a lot of work on that in TV
to try and make the TV industry more accessible for people with
disabilities. I was lucky enough to be
involved in a film called Working Differently a few years
ago. All about that and
neurodivergence in the workplaceand stuff.
And it's great that we can have things like that.
(10:09):
But I do still feel like there'sso much work to do and and
that's why it's so lovely to have someone like yourself on
this show and, you know, to see something like Birds of Paradise
do so well and be such a trailblazer in the space.
Because, you know, unfortunately, there's a lot of
theatres still don't have the best disability access for
people to go and even see shows because of the way they're
built. I mean, the, you'll know more
(10:31):
than me. I'm, you know, as well, like
there's still a lot of work to do and things.
But something I want to ask you,Robert, as well, if you're happy
to talk about it, is do you mindtalking a bit about your
disability for our listeners? Because I've had, as I've
mentioned to you off air, had Jack Hunter on the show before.
He's got cerebral palsy. I've had Michael McKean on, I
think his name is on the show before as well.
(10:51):
So I mean, I think it's really important to speak to as many
different people across the aisles as possible and it's
lovely to get it. But if you're happy to talk
about it, I think it's always really nice to get your
perspective and stuff. I mean, when I I went to school
with my school so long game ago,I know, but I knew Jack well see
you get 3 guys with cable ponkeyonly two.
(11:15):
And there's a funny thing with my my the cat corrected bought
Marie. She's making a joke about quite
all those guys with cable ponkeythat are cooking myself.
I don't know if it's no fault. So yes, I, I was born with cable
policy, but it's basically a brain injury that happens during
(11:38):
birth and that affects a bit of your brain that that controls
like coordination, speech, balance, stuff like that.
So I can simply bring bring injury that affects how your
muscles move. The the CPE for exact, for
(12:10):
example, he can feel in my own CPE.
He can walk his speech. It can really affect me, you
know, because he could crack different experience to CPE.
But yeah, it's incredibly because a lot of the people that
I work with have all got CPE. I wonder what what brings us all
(12:33):
into the arts, but something about there's something here
that been quite gobby or quite. Yeah, don't look at enroll
finger home and speaker. It's quite interesting actually
from knowing the free of you andfrom chatting to the free of
you. You are all very, you're very,
and I mean Gobby is a compliment.
Like you were very outspoken andlike you just, I can imagine you
(12:56):
must be the same way. You're just, you're going to say
what you want to say and I love that.
That's really nice. And yeah, no, it is interesting
that you're all sort of working in the arts, but I think that's
brilliant And yeah, no, thank you for opening up about that as
well. I mean, it's just really
important to talk about that. A lot of people still don't
understand these things or don't.
They don't maybe want to ask because it feels like they
don't, you know? And that I think that's if you
(13:19):
can get a really important job where we can talk about things
that are going to be a bit more difficult to, to absolutely.
And we can we can do it in a story or we can put it on engage
in a way that makes it more relatable so that people are not
going, they're not going to all go that that thing called
(13:41):
disability over there. I don't understand it and I
don't know how cash to work it. That sort of fear doesn't help
any. But yeah, go and think.
No, completely. And I think what's lovely about
Birds of Paradise is work and some of the things you've been
involved with, as well as a lot of your shows are they're one,
they're universal as well. And they're not all just like
(14:03):
this is a, a show that's really sad and depressed.
And it's like you're making workthat is fun and that you don't
just have to, it doesn't have tojust necessarily always be about
disability. You, it's just you're, you're
making a show in an accessible way that's about lots of
different things. And I think that's really nice.
Yeah. I mean, I think I think when
they keep it from you, you can directly recognize that going to
(14:25):
the theater and quite a big ask,wait, how didn't you get at your
house, get question and get in the car and go to the venue and
over that. It's all a hassle.
Wig you can put on Netflix rightwhere why bother going to the
seeker 'cause to make it worth the hassle, we have to make it a
(14:46):
really good night out. We have to make it in cooking.
It doesn't mean that everything has to be happy.
You eat. You know, it's not that, but it
has to be worth the effort. You have to kill story.
The main people see things in a different way or that makes them
appreciate the world differently.
(15:09):
So that's great convenient convert.
How do we do that in wings that are in cocaine, wings that
surprise people in wings that make people think that's what I
will thank you. Good.
Disability is always a part of that, but you can always know.
You can always see it coming. So like we can get the things.
(15:32):
In 2018, My Left Foot was a big musical.
So most people come into that are going great.
I'm going along to see a big, bold musical.
Yeah, it happens that that's a big part of that.
That's about a disabled character.
But that's not, that's not what you're advocating.
(15:55):
It's not the flag that you're fighting.
You're getting people in and then once you got them in there,
then you can kill them, whateveryou want to kill them.
I always joke about the the goodthing about seekers that once
you sit down, obviously you can walk out, but you're not likely
(16:16):
to. So you're sort of stuck and I've
got you there for an hour and then 1/2 and I can make you
uncomfortable, I can make you laugh, I can make you cry.
I can do all these things to you.
And and that's quite rare because things like TV or film,
(16:37):
if you go like it, you can walk away.
You can come. Yeah, we see there.
It's how good could walk away from and that's what useful for
me. It's the completely, completely,
and sometimes you do all three of those things in one show and
you're like, wow, I've done it all.
Pride. And yeah, that's always the
(16:58):
magical part of it. I want to ask you a lot about
your sort of role, Boards of Paradise and the questions about
how you sort of art artist or director and things.
But just to go back slightly, like tell us about a time where
you went to the theatre when youwere younger and it did what we
just talked about to you. Do you remember going to the
theatre and seeing something that did all that?
I mean, when I thought I think my family were quite theatrical
(17:22):
and that they were part of an unground group where I grew up.
So even in these was like 4 or five, I was going along to
rehearsals and stuff. You know, there was the
Kingfinger baby because I was getting watch a rehearsal and
and that was what I grew up on. So I was going to bring that
(17:44):
theatrical world and I guess thinking about things like the
annual pan coming. So there'll be a week in January
where the suit was put on a panko for I think 500 people
every night would come to this panko.
And I also remember the the finale of a Panko when you got
(18:07):
the curve, the Rosen song that everyone sang here is all
anywhere. We're all happy.
There's no go home happy and be be part of the world again.
And even at a young age and remember that things not going
to something or being part of something that was bigger that
(18:31):
that I also enjoyed. And to me, that's why I think
that place you could go something that I think we might
equal your part or something bigger than your kill.
Completely, completely. And the other thing I want to
ask you to talk about your family being doing Amdram and
being very theatrical and stuff.Tell us a bit about your growing
(18:52):
up and your upbringing and and where are you from as well.
Tell us about where you're from and how that's influenced you
as. Well, yeah, I was born in work.
I grew up in a place called Kirkand Kirkwood.
So I'm a I'm a West Coast boy. I saw I was going into 80 'cause
I was feeling 85. A bit like you see what people
(19:14):
were going to special schools, but that we take the norm.
So I went and get special schoolin Glasgow corporate from park
up was what was 12 and they moved another special school
called Ash Creek. And these quite small schools
that were either were acceptable, but also were making
(19:35):
a way that disabled people couldget figures, could get speech
therapy, could get all these things that, you know, I mean,
school wouldn't have been possible with that kind.
But then we only come in 15. I realized that I didn't feel
part of this all special school environment.
(19:58):
I feel like I wasn't being challenged enough.
I wasn't being I wasn't around enough of my peers.
I was only ever around other disabled people.
And that come but weird feelingsa bit.
Yeah, it would be weird for any group get only be around that
group. Got 15, I started to move to my
(20:21):
local school called Grinchy Academy.
So for fifth year and 6th year, forgive my highest, I went to
Grinchy Academy, which was a massive change.
You know, in 1986 could go from little school of 120 pupils to a
school of 1600s. We'll give you a higher with
(20:45):
that. It was massive.
It was a massive cultural sketchas well, but it was great.
I I was getting me get a lot of these things there that came in
on a course. So they went to Glasgow Uni and
and it's funny, you're cooking, but you know, get a real.
(21:06):
I went to Glasgow uni to study computer science.
We got here. It was 1998, and computing
science was the thing that we all thought this was the makers
of Fortuning. And it was something that I
enjoyed. And I thought, yeah, this would
be great. You know, I'll get a career in
(21:29):
IKEA, do something like that. And then I got the second year
and I realized that everyone whowas doing completing things,
lovely people, but they were geeks, you know, they were.
So they were, they went in with Jackie people.
They were quite, you know, they weren't gonna be like you.
(22:06):
But again, like I didn't do thatbecause, well, I would never get
a German seeker, so why would you want a a seeker degree if
you can't work on it? And then literally 2 months
after I picked my owner I've gota German seeker and they all
(22:27):
came after that. Oh wow, thank you for sharing
your time and and upbringing stuff.
It was really interesting to hear about and but you also did
a bit of business management with your computing sciences,
didn't you? Yeah.
And that's interesting because Iimagine now that you're the
artistic director and CEO of Bird Paradise, you're probably
like, OK, this business does actually.
Quite useful because I'm kind ofalso.
(22:47):
Running a business. In a way, I use more of my
business degree than than I wantto believe.
But yeah, can so much, can so much for what we're doing
marketing it, it seems development it can.
(23:14):
Yeah. Completely, I actually think
that often creatively because I studied film and theatre union
and I did a screen written, I did a master's screen written
degree. But one thing I think back on
and something I tried to use thepodcast to do is I actually
think entrepreneurialism and business and stuff is as we just
(23:35):
touched on, it's really useful to know that stuff, whether you
work in theatre, TV, film, you're an artist.
We have to now sell ourselves, especially in the way that that
things work now and we have to build it, as you say, do the
spreadsheets apply for budget? So I think there's definitely
more we could probably learn from that sort of world.
And something I would like to domore of on the podcast here is
(23:55):
is interview those type of people for sure, because I think
it's really useful to. I think for a long time the sort
of the apps were were quite negative about you know,
business or marketing or any of that.
You know, I won't give me car. I don't want to talk about
advocating campaigns, but it's all part of the same thing you
(24:17):
it's like what I what I call a play the cake or that I give it.
It's part of her market that youalso I think it all it's not
part of the same sort of thing that we can work out you and
thank you again. You make me think of pouring
again. So at least I am thinking, I
(24:39):
think if you're not, you're justbeing self and you know, you
better self get home and do thatby yourself, but you're making
it for the audience. Therefore they have to come in
here. So that that is marketing, that
is developing a business, you know.
(25:00):
Yeah, I think it's all completely.
I think the way that we give youup isn't always helpful.
It's one part of the same sort of thing you.
Know definitely, I mean, it's really interesting and yeah,
something I think you're right. I just think it's creative.
Often creatively, we want to just go, I want to make the best
stories and we don't maybe we don't always like to think about
(25:23):
things like money or, you know, marketing, as you say, but I
think it's important to have, well, I suppose you just need
some people in your team that can do that.
That's the other thing that you,we're all got different skills.
You all know this from running ateam and working with people
like it's important to maybe know, well, I'm good at this,
but they're good at that. So do I mean, I'll, I'll share
our skills and stuff because we are, we are all different.
(25:44):
Yeah, thanks for me. No, it's really interesting.
I want to come back as well. So you're talking about you did
that first play in Edinburgh, you were saying and you did, you
had a one year contract. Tell us a bit about your pathway
then, Like was there a moment when you thought, you know, I
can make a career in theater, This might be possible now.
I don't need the computers anymore.
Let's get though. I think so like I'm talking
(26:08):
about when when you give that one year wrecking out your
contract, if you could work help.
I then built up concerts you getespecially amongst the sort of
guess completely seeker world atthat point.
It's got a small community, so we all got to know each other
pretty quickly. And that would be because then
(26:31):
when there's another girl comingup, you can go right, She'd be
good for that girl, but she'd begood for that girl.
So all became a real of getting other work.
So that's where for after that one year, I think for the next
two or three years, I came in from GILP to GILP and doing
(26:51):
other roles for other companies coming around the UK and that
was great. At the end in phases you think
when do you think you can make it to Korea?
I still don't think I have. I think there is a bit of you
that's always going well. I'll keep doing it for now and
(27:12):
then when people stop asking me to do it, I'll go and get a
proper Guild. And you know, I hear that half
jokingly, but I think, I think the minute you go right, I'm,
I'm yes, this is what I'm going to do forever.
I, I think you lose a little bit.
You spark or something, because you know, even though we'll
(27:37):
we'll, we can hear about fundingin Scotland.
So we'll go. Can we can we all hear a little
thinking and then we can all make plans and relax a little
bit and get on with good and work.
But at the moment we're all going well.
If we couldn't get a funny date,I could go back to my computer
kind stuff. You know, I could go back and
(28:00):
become a, a thinking or a a business development person.
You know, that's so there's always a fall back that you want
to have. And that's important because I
get open the house, it's never going to be secure.
And I go and it should be that secure because because you want
(28:24):
to keep making your best work. You want you want to keep once
once I start making films that are a bit dull and a bit
predictable and a bit comfortable, then I need to stop
giving this job. You and other people need to
(28:45):
come up and get a better job andkill me.
Keep a girl you. So that's what means like
complacency. I think it's a pretty dangerous
thing and seeker so I. Think it's a dangerous thing in
life actually. Yeah.
Yeah, but I think there's reallyinterest but.
(29:06):
Yeah, but I can imagine, maybe I'm wrong, but I can imagine
being a being a, a programmer orwhatever.
You can become a bit more comfortable about what you're
doing. Yeah, Yeah, we're telling we, we
can see. Yeah, you're going to be that
comfortable. You want, you want a wee, you
(29:27):
want to be a little bit hungry for 'cause that great, you can
make it work. That's so interesting.
I never thought about it in thatway before, but I suppose it's
that thing you're saying is you want to be kept on your toes
slightly so you don't just go, well, we've got, you know, I've
got 10 years to make all this. So see if this year's shows a
bit crap, then I suppose that's maybe like would the mindset
(29:49):
that would come into it. It's interesting.
I never thought about that because I'm something that
struggles. I struggle with not having
security or comfort, but maybe at the same time that drives me
to hard work harder. So it's like it's a bit as a
trade up, isn't it? But it's an interesting way of
looking at it. I really like the way you sort
of articulate. We always talk of it and see
because we haven't enough came, we haven't enough money.
(30:10):
We're always complaining about that and that's crew.
If I'm not I'm not getting any at the moment, but all coping.
You have got more can you get more money?
You got less pressure and but I work well under pressure.
I work well, can be clean. I need someone could be on my
back. So yeah, I think we won't.
(30:33):
Be careful what you wish for. I suppose if you want in a happy
balance, you want the funding opportunity, if you want the the
money and resources to make great fear and to build the more
sustainable industry completely because we're in a really shit
time at the moment where across the across the arts.
But at the same time, as you're saying, you also want to have
that hunger. So I suppose it's finding that
(30:54):
happy balance. Isn't it and I'm seeing that as
a very privileged person and then you see where I forgot what
of opportunity can meet working to do things.
So I fully recognize that peoplewill be watching this going
sorry for him because you but I but using getting a bit of
balance. You've got balance.
(31:16):
But I think you're very aware oflike and, and very like self
aware of your position. And I think you're very much
someone that has used their position to help others and to,
to what I like to say, put the ladders down behind you and help
people access the acts and get in from them.
And it's so vital. Hopefully, yeah.
I mean, it just feels obvious tome that I mean, a, a big part of
(31:40):
the argument that we always making into that we need more
good vestigators more. Like for 100 years, if you
could, I've been carrying the same stories over and over again
about point men, legally point men and they're all quick down
there. We can compare them over and
(32:01):
over again. So we need new stories.
New stories come from having more of their people in the
arts. So yes, I want to get more
people into the arts because I didn't get it right.
What's got a morally right, if you like, but but what we can, I
(32:23):
think it makes the work bigger. I think it's more interesting to
hear different stories. If it can cable stuff over and
over again, yeah. Yeah.
You want a range of voices, and you know, you want to.
As always, as you say, it makes it richer.
(32:44):
It makes the stories richer. Yeah, hello.
It's Jamie here. I hope you're enjoying this
week's episode. It's just a quick one for me to
say that if you're listening to the podcast on Apple, Spotify or
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give us a follow or a subscribe as it goes a long way into
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(33:05):
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You can also support us by subscribing to our patron page
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All the money we make goes back into the upkeep of the podcast.
Thank you for your continued support and we hope you enjoy
the rest of today's episode. I suppose a good question for
(33:27):
you then, in the position you'rein is what, what do you think
are the sort of main stumbling blocks at the moment in the
theatre and particularly in Scotland and the UK?
Like what are some of the thingsyou would if you had a magic
wand you would change? I think when they're in the
place where, especially in Scotland, I think a lot of the
seagulls know what the great guns and casting people have are
(33:52):
getting on boards and they want to find more disabled actors.
They want to put disabled peopleon stage.
You know, if I look, if I look back at Christmas, you know, the
air gear, guest performance and a pantomime, the lesbian, the
disabled performer, the Christmas show right away, the
(34:18):
three guest and disabled actors on stage in Scotland that would
have been unhelg up. But even five years ago, I think
we have moved forward and we've got a lot of great people.
I worry that because now the resources could become so scarce
(34:38):
that people see things like accessibility as a, an extra, as
a bonus. You it will do that if we can
forget. And the problem is that when
when resources are cut back, those are the things that are
cut back on because you it cost too much or experience things or
(35:00):
whatever. And so that's where we know that
that we need to hang on to that stuff and keep moving forward.
And the hope, the hope with morefunding comes the government.
I hope that that will keep getting better.
I think I'll call. We keep you, keep doing it, keep
(35:21):
making mistakes, keep trying newthings.
And you 3 actors in Scotland being in Christmas shows, we are
guessing. It's great, but still way too
small, you know? Yeah, there's nothing really.
It's a drop in the ocean. Yeah.
A. Lot more so we need to keep get
(35:42):
more people into the case you are disabled gifts and the other
wings gave us you can make it a much more exciting picture you
know so yeah, we're I feel that we're in the right direction
we're moving here there. Yeah.
No, completely. Do you think I'm just, I mean,
(36:05):
asking from your own experience as well, do you think I'm an
issue? Because there's something I've
observed in TV and I listen, I used to work in TV development.
And I think we're all guilty of this accidentally because we all
have hidden biases and we all want to work with people we
know. But do you think a problem is
people often just hire who they know well, who they're maybe
friends with, who right isn't right in front of them.
So say you're, I don't know, a casting director for a big
(36:27):
theatre company or something. And you don't really have many
disabled friends or friends of colour or friends who, you know,
whatever background they're from.
And all your friends kind of just look, look and sound like
you. And you just, and it's not even
malicious. You're just like, oh, I'll hire
them because they're right there.
Do you think that's quite a, do you think that's the same in
theatre? Because I think that happens in
TV all the time. I think it's a major part of the
(36:50):
issue is, and you can understandwhy because there's so much risk
already in what you're doing. You know, keeping film, he's
spending so much money that could take a a pint on someone
who might go over the goods but may not is a big risk.
Whereas if it's only that, you know, if it's only that you're
(37:13):
like, yeah, I know they can go over this job, then you're gonna
yeah, you, you, you just play ita little bit safe.
I don't know how we ever get over that because I think it's
not even got through instincts. I know that I do.
I know that I, I know that I go,OK, I'll go with them because I
(37:37):
know they can do the job and guns.
And if I didn't do that, the endresult isn't as good.
And then people say, well, why was that play not as good?
So, you know, if you want kind could make quality and take a
big risk at the same time. It's very difficult to do and
(38:01):
but it's where we need to go. It's what we need to do.
We also need to start making friends with people who are not
like us. You know, that's, I mean, go
back to my earlier comment aboutbeing especially school and
recognizing that I was surrounded by disabled people.
(38:22):
And that was a bit strange to mebecause the world getting old
disabled, the world getting old way, anything.
So that's nothing for me but a variety.
The people that we mix less, thepeople that we incorrect with,
the people that we. Yeah, I think it's more variety.
(38:48):
And that goes back to my point about the scurries that were put
on skates. You're thinking if we can scurry
into the audience with the cablepeople that they're not familiar
with and that that's not an openhorizon, broadens the horizon
and then they go, OK, maybe I could mix with other people.
(39:13):
So all that's not about big circular motion here.
Hopefully that comes together. No, Brilliant.
I completely agree with you. I think that's some really nice
points. So.
And I think you're right about risk.
I think risk is, I don't know, it's the natural thing, isn't
it? Especially when money, money's
limited, Yeah. Risk.
This sounds great, like we know the ideal risk globally, but in
(39:39):
practical terms, risk cost money.
And if it doesn't work, then it doesn't work.
Yeah, it's difficult. I think we just may be sometimes
in the arts, we need to, especially from broadcasters or
and you know, fear companies or whatever it might be and we need
(40:01):
to maybe just allow more opportunity for people to fail.
I think often TV will make a series and go not what it'll
bomb. Say we make a series, no one
watches it. We'll just not make another
series. Whereas back in the day, I feel
when there's more money or time,you could take a punt and
because often stuff gets. Better in a second series are,
you know, you do a show and it maybe doesn't work, but then you
rewrite it slightly and it playsamazing.
(40:23):
So I think it's like trying to have that attitude that things
can fail, and that's a good thing because you learn from
failure. I completely agree in theory.
The problem is like now we are surrounded by so much, getting
so many like algorithms that kept us where things were going
(40:44):
wrong with. If you look at, they know.
They know the point of when people stop watching their
programs. Yeah, they know.
That's. Very true.
They know that they stop watching it, you know, 32
minutes. So therefore at that point you
have to do something that will keep them watching and you know,
(41:04):
I love we can know you. This isn't coming from someone
who isn't in favour of Kick, butI do worry that it eliminates
that opportunity for risk. Because we can, we'll get so
much knowledge about Yeah, aboutwhat works and what doesn't
(41:25):
work. And then you get the whole EI
question of you, at some point EI will be able to make a
perfect play or a perfect film, and then you go over that.
That's deeply worth worrying. We can close No, perfectly, but
it'll cry, you know, it will getfun gigging.
(41:48):
Yeah. It's.
I think we can give you very careful.
We were going. Yeah.
I suppose just have curiosity, have you used much AI in your
company? Because this is something I'm
not. I feel very conflicted on the AI
thing. So I mean, I'm not talking about
as much in the show before, but I've started using AI for the
podcast now because I run this myself on the side of a full
(42:09):
time job. Anything that makes my life more
efficient. I mean, it's still all my work,
but as a dyslexic person as well, AI is actually so helpful
to me because it's the best spell checker I've ever had.
Like when I was at school, I wasusing an alpha smart and stuff.
Now I've got this amazing tech and I think it's wonderful in
some ways because it helps me. I don't know, it just helps me a
lot in some ways. But at the same time, I do get
(42:30):
where people are really scary ofit, scared of AI, and I don't
want it to replace my creativity.
I just wanted to use it to help me create my work and get my
stuff across. But do what do you think about
it? Do you use it much in Birds of
Paradise or anything? When using it a little bit, I
mean, we're getting some work inNepal, for example, and I was
(42:51):
like, I've got a script here that's in English, no one could
translate it. And can you please, no Google
Translate can get a wee bit of that, but the quality of Google
Translate was never that good because it didn't understand
what you're saying. If, you know, stick it through
(43:13):
AI in here, I'm waiting to cancel it.
And can you please, you get a much better end result.
Still not perfect, but it's better.
I so we use, we use, yeah, a little bit of things like that.
I think I'm quite a controlled freak.
So, for example, if I'm getting AI could do my social media
(43:37):
posts, I go back and I give thembecause I think that I can break
it better than yeah, I can. So I'm I'm, I'm I'm way not way.
I keep. I think, yeah, it's not as good
yet as it would be once It is great.
I think we'll be using it a lot more at the moment.
(44:00):
I think it's still it's still developing.
We're still working at what it can do.
You know, we're still when you when you actually I could got a
picture of your show getting 4 fingers and things like that.
What you're going to you, you'renot that in so but I do think I
think it will be very difficult time because we need to look at
(44:25):
what we give you so far. We give you so far, but but it's
not going away. So we have to watch over this
out. Embrace.
Yeah, yeah. It's a tricky 1 for sure.
Maybe not, maybe not embrace, but at least at least work with
(44:48):
it. You know, like I'm, I'm not
giving you that's. A bad way of putting it.
Yeah, we've got to have to love it.
We have to know anything clear, you know I.
Think that's a Yeah, I think that's probably a better way of
describing it. Well, thank you for answering
that as well. I want to let's talk about Birds
of Paradise in particular then, because obviously last year you
(45:10):
celebrated for eight years you've been in post there, what,
10 years you've been the artist director 12.
Years, yeah. 12 years, wow. Tell us about your 12 years
being artist director and stuff.How, how is the company growing?
And tell us a bit about the company for those that might not
know, because we've got listeners all across the world
(45:31):
actually so. Yeah, I mean quite a years
sounds like a long time and I take a long time.
The first couple of four years Iwas part of came from three gigs
a week. And there was another occasion
director who was also part of came and see guy work together
and we also work separately on different productions.
(45:53):
And we we had a great relationship and gone very well.
Gary Robson was him Gary and Bosley and died last year.
So I think it was like a great colleagues and friends.
And so Gary I worked together for for five years and then Gary
(46:14):
left and I got bitching. The cool came OK, go back and
that being really interesting Junior because you cranky quail.
I'm walking away. And then I could you know, we
(46:34):
had cranky cranky. We had the pandemic and
everything tinky. So cranky, cranky about cranky 3
doesn't really count because we're doing a lot of stuff.
But there wasn't, it wasn't likemaking Tikka in the way that we
were doing before. It was very different how it
(46:55):
used to be. And when they're back to that
old rear missing Tikka, like taking quite a while to get back
there. A lot of what we've done in the
last couple years has been a very freaking dreamy, high
quality secret on skates always trying to you, you can always
get it right, but you're always aiming to meet great shows that
(47:20):
people want to come and see and the people are in cooking by.
And a lot of that is because theonly things before you see
cable, it's great, like the cable people can do this, but
you know, they're not that good,are they?
So the quality argument, we can be important in the same way
(47:45):
that when we speak to other companies, we have to go why you
not and bring the cable access to the legal world.
They're not that good, but it became our job to show how good
they can be so that we take awaythat excuse.
So the lack of years will be a lot about doing excellent work
(48:09):
on stage, supporting other and disabled artists could give up
their craft and then supporting other companies could become
more inclusive, more accessible.So we talk about these three
strands, Bob Seger for We Make the Work Bob Development, we
(48:32):
Support Other People and then Bob PT, they support other
companies and they all work together.
But that could be kind of good they get out yeah or other what
we do going for international there because of the people from
other countries. So like I say, we're working in
(48:53):
Nepal and over last five years we covered Mexico, Brazil and
Rwanda and Nepal. India will cover the lot of
countries where they want to develop a simple guard and they
want to become secret makers andwe hopefully be able to help
(49:19):
them think a way you could do that.
We're not. We're not going to deal with all
the answers, so we're going to see here's how we're going to
evolve. Can we give you a little bit of
support to make it work for you?That's.
Brilliant. I love what you were saying
about the quality thing as well.Like almost so defiant.
(49:40):
It's like, well, you know, if you're going to doubt us, then
we're going to make sure we havethe best quality and we'll prove
to you that you're wrong. And I think that's so important
and you have done that. I mean, like I think people talk
about birds of paradise around, I mean, this industry with such
like high regard, like, you know, you guys are like leaders
in what you do. And I mean, you, you don't need
me to tell you that. Like I think a lot of the
(50:00):
quality, you know, speaks for itself.
And I think it's wonderful that you've been able to help, you
know, create that and lead that.And I mean, it's really
important and really inspiring as well.
I'll suppose I want to ask you about what your role as Aceo and
artistic director sort of entails like, because that's
different to just as we were talking about being a creative
(50:22):
and being an actor and stuff. What are the sort of free sort
of maybe humans love the number 3, but what are free skills you
think that would are quite important to do in that job?
There's something about playing a Hague.
So we're just getting a businessplan for 2025 to 2028.
(50:43):
Now in reality, we've got no idea what can happen in 2028
because you know, I've I've not got a magic ball in the world.
Could be pretty different. But you have to some degree of
ability to go, OK, The audience won't see what in this area or
(51:07):
talking about this sort of thing.
So there's a there's a little bit of foresight forecasting and
sort of trying to work out where, where things are going in
the world. And, and what they were getting
sort of Katie by like. So that's I think #1 is that
sort of Mystic make aspect of being a Kitty director.
(51:32):
I think the second big, big one is he still got working with
people. I directors and I can see
directors and get a hurricane because people say, well, oh,
you guys and play other people and they go with the hard work
and and you're like, well, yeah,that my job is to employ the
(51:55):
best people and to let them get on with the best money that they
can that that actually get up. You know, there's no there's no
shame in that. That's that's what we do.
And So what they get up with somebody understanding people
and about trying to work out. OK, if I get you and you
(52:17):
together, what will happen? What will I end up?
What will be that work and all of it in some match matchmaking
or getting people together and hoping that they make something
shaking from that. So that's number two.
(52:38):
Number three, I think getting something about risk, you know,
we've always got not enough money, not enough came, not
enough recourse. And then something about as a as
a CEO being able to take a risk,that's not a stupid risk.
(53:00):
That's not, you know, like you go in and be going, yeah, let's
do it anyway we could, you know,we're opening up bankrupt.
But you still need to keep risk in the Mets.
You still need to. So there's a bit of minds of
that risk of it going when you say yes, when you say no, quite
(53:22):
a big thing. Yeah, completely.
No. Thank you very much for your
answer. And you were talking about your
sort of three-year business planstuff.
But tell us is there anything coming up at Birds of Paradise?
What is the sort of what are your plans for the future?
Well, like you gave me finger then your January of little fun
games for them quite a lot that depends on that.
Not that you know this is make or break, but getting quite a
(53:46):
big factor in terms of the the steel loop we grew.
Yeah, we'll go in the game. We'll get a pre gig at the
moment in Nepal from March. That will be in that will be pre
Yankee getting actually thinkingNepal, and we'll be waiting to
see that around the world as well.
(54:08):
So keep an eye on the website. We're all cooking a pre paying a
paint, which is sort of Scottishinstitution now Raker in
Edinburgh create a new brief with I think I'll be directing
that play in me. So that'll be all in Glasgow.
(54:28):
Me the Rakers called Simon G, who's a great disabled New York
American breaker who yeah, he can create a a green.
We'll get a lot of development stuff for the pop.
Young artists are a group of people who are coming together
(54:52):
to develop performing skills. So they that starts in February.
They're going to come together for some workshops and to work
together. And then we're then saying the
rest of the year developing skills is performance.
So we'll get more disabled actors are in the world and in
(55:12):
Scotland. So these things are ongoing at
the moment, but until we know a bit of funding we can't really
know what. Still we can look after that.
And quite a bitch. Is that a big question mark for
the moment? Yeah, well, fingers crossed by
the the funding is all positive.And just for people watching and
(55:33):
listening, there's links to about the Paradise underneath
the show so you can find out more about the company and, and
find Robert and stuff online andall that and so and keep an eye
on what he's doing. I've just got two more questions
for you, Robert. I appreciate your time so much
today. And, and one of them is what's
the biggest lesson you've learned in your career so far?
(55:56):
It's like when we asked this before I, I sort of make a
flipping joke. And now that I think it's not
that flippant, I think we're very, we're very guilty now for
seeing you keep going, go and give up.
Just keep keep crying and makingit work.
My thing is actually the opposite of that.
(56:18):
Like some things it's some way to give up.
Some things if you're cracking your thing, it's not working for
years and years. Maybe you're going home sort of
thing. Maybe you we're we're not all
beginning to be record or correct or whatever things that
other things that you are beginning to be.
(56:42):
Yeah. So some, so I think we're
beginning things. Keep going, keep trying, but
also go be afraid of giving up and I'll get government giving
up on everything. But I mean what you know the
course that you're going in, thecorrection that you're going in,
(57:03):
it's not a single direction at all.
Quest can come and go up and go in West and rain.
That's OK. Go with that Rick, enjoy the
rage, but but be up for case correction.
Yeah, I, I love that. I mean, that's so true.
And I think often people forget as well, sometimes the
destination you think you want, it's not actually going to make
(57:25):
you happy and it's not what you want anyway.
So I think if you're right, sometimes you have to just feel
that what, where am I at and could have pivot slightly.
I think it's been able to pivot when you need to do.
I think it's all true and. If you got me, Quincy, what I've
been doing at 45, it's not what I'm doing now, but I love what
I'm doing now. So you know that you have to be
(57:49):
up for, right? It's not built like bring your
own skies. And there's some actors who work
out there. I'm going to do this and then
I'm going to do that. And then I'll feel like this and
then I'll do that. And when you won't react and put
that, it's a bit weird because they're going to open it in the
(58:11):
heck and like they're doing it well, but they're not reacting
to anything. They're not in the moment.
I guess looking at being in the moment, reacting to what's
around you is much more, I think, much more valuable than
having a master plan and skipping to it.
(58:32):
Yeah, completely. And it's hard to do that
sometimes. But you know, I mean, that's a
really nice answer, really nice answer.
Sort of closing question for youthen, Robert, what would your
closing advice be to anyone thatwants to work in theatre,
particularly because that's yourarea of expertise?
Especially in Scotland, it's about your network, it's about
(58:54):
who you know, it's about gettingold people and getting them to
want to work with you. That that is #1 priority and how
you do that can very angry kings.
But people need to want to work with you.
So look at what you're, what you're gimmicky, what you're,
(59:17):
what you bring to the cable, what you're saying is, and then
go and sell that to people. Kill Romeo.
I'm a great puppet maker or I'm a great voice person or whatever
it is. Look at what you're saying.
And then network, network, network getting old people.
(59:37):
And then I think it comes, it guns come.
Just to something I'm just to quickly, I spend this really
good advice and just want to quickly ask one more thing as a
part of your answer. Because there's a lot of people
that I know who listen to the show who messaged me sometimes
and say I'm an introvert or I'm quite shy and I'm not good at
networking. What would you say to those
people? Do you just think, think outside
(59:58):
the box maybe, or try and find away that suits?
You there are various ways to network.
You know, it's like I hate goingto receptions because everyone's
at a standing height. I mean, people feel they're on
cock and wait. I hate it's loud.
I got speech and payment. They can't hear what I'm saying.
(01:00:20):
I hate networking events. So if that's not for you, that's
fine. Get one to one meeting, meet
people for a coffee. You know, people are quite
biggie, so maybe they go reply, get them to come along to think
that you're doing and tell them that you'll come and sit in the
(01:00:42):
restroom. Find ways to meet people that
that work for you. You know, there's a lot of
introverts in the theatre, but like, I think that's the idea
that we're already outgoing in brass.
I think most secret people I know hate being a lot of people
(01:01:05):
you, because when you think about what we do, we stand up on
stage and we get everyone to be quiet when we go.
We're not really into people winking.
You watch. So being incorrect, it's not a
problem, but it's about working out how you can network and the
(01:01:27):
way that works for you. You you Instagram, it's now such
a powerful way of networking with people.
Make videos and talk about what your passions are.
Make talking about the play thatyou want to write and then get
(01:01:49):
it up there. You know, there's so many ways
to get things out there now thatthat that work for you, even if
you even isn't yet working in the old fashioned way doesn't
That's another week. That's another way to network.
Yeah, it totally is, Totally is.And I didn't even consider when
(01:02:11):
you were talking about how for you going to a networking event
like you know, like one of thosereceptions like with your
disability and stuff, it's already like it's excluding you
from that space. And that's so true that I think
it's, I mean if you're deaf as well, like I have a few friends
that are deaf and they can't go to networking events in that
way. So I think there's an industry
wide issue. We need to get better at
organizing more accessible network and that's another
(01:02:31):
topic. But what I can do is e-mail
people directly and go, OK, likefor coffee or you like, like
networking events. I don't think you're that useful
for anybody, actually. No, because no one who's
actually making work goes to them anyway, because they don't
need to go working. So you're completely.
Very good. Exactly.
(01:02:52):
So yeah, I think, I think we think they're great, but they're
not that great anyway. But yeah, I think the way that
works for you. Completely, Robert, thank you so
much for your time this afternoon.
This is such a nice way to spendthe lunch break, honestly.
Keep doing what you're doing, man.
I was like, it's really inspiring to chat to you.
It's honestly such a pleasure. And as you know, you're so
(01:03:12):
passionate and so articulate andyeah, you're killing it, man.
So it's good to see. So thank you so much for your
time. Thanks for having me on.
Thank you.
Hello, I am Jamie McKinley, and you are listening to another
episode of Just Get a Real Job. Thank you as always for
listening. This is your first time as well.
Welcome to the show. Thank you for tuning in.
I'm really excited to put this week's episode out.
We recorded this one back in January, just at the start of
the year, so it's about time we put this one out.
And it is an absolute pleasure to welcome on the show Robert
(00:26):
Softly Gale, who is the artisticdirector of Birds of Paradise
Theatre and he is a pioneer in Scotland and was one of the
list's top 100 artists last yearas well.
The work Roberts done over the last 20 years or so is
remarkable. And Birds of Paradise are one of
the UK and one of Scotland's leading disability for your
companies as well. And not only do they make
(00:46):
brilliant theatre, the work they've done around access and
getting more disabled representation and disabled
voices into the creative industries has been remarkable.
And it's a really important episode, the really enjoyable
chat. And Robert was a great
character. So I was very funny and very
honest and he had some great opinions on things.
It was really interesting to pick his brain about the
business side of the industry aswell.
(01:08):
Of course, he's a CEO, he's an artistic director of a theatre
company. So as well as chatting about the
creative stuff, it was really interesting to get that side of
it as well and to hear about hisexperiences and opinions on the
state of the industry, where we're at with representation and
disability, particularly in theatre and in the wider
industry. So it was a really enjoyable
episode to record. And yeah, loved having Robert on
(01:29):
the show. So so I hope you enjoy this
week's episode. And if you are enjoying the show
overall as well, please share uson social media.
Tell people to listen. You can subscribe to our YouTube
channel. It just get a real job.
If you're watching there, pleasegive the video a like.
If you're listening on Spotify, Apple or any other podcast and
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Please share the show. All the usual stuff.
But honestly, it goes a long wayin helping us grow and find new
(01:52):
listeners. And yeah, really appreciate and
support and got lots of excitingthings planned for the rest of
the year. But yes, without much further
ado, this is episode 165 of the brilliant Robert Softly Go.
(02:16):
Just. Get a real job, Robert, How you
doing? It's a pleasure to have you on.
Just get a real job and you're the CEO, the artistic director
of Birds of Paradise Theatre. Last year, you just celebrated
30 years, one of the sort of leading disability theater
companies in Scotland and the leading theater company itself.
(02:39):
It's a pleasure to have you on the podcast.
Thank you for joining us today. Thank you for having me on.
Thank you. How are you anyway?
Do you want to sort of kick off the episode?
Do you want to introduce yourself to our listeners?
I mean, you're in the lists top 100 in Scotland and stuff.
You're quite a well known figurein the creative industry.
So someone I've been wanting to have on the show for a while and
(03:00):
I'm I'm thrilled to have you, but do you want to introduce
yourself for our listeners? Yeah, sure.
I mean, I guess yeah, I've I've been working in the afternoon
for about 25 years for the films.
We get yours because you I go through that old, but the oldest
man and and yeah, I in a way I never plan to be involved in
(03:25):
Sega. I, I grew up and I cross the
actual family, but as a decayable young person, I
thought, oh, there's no way thatI'll get a job in the theater.
We can. It's not realistic.
Cut me back in the 90s, it was agood idea to for a guy with a
(03:48):
guy to be working in theater. It just wouldn't happen back
then. And then I guess things just
happened. Great guy.
I wasn't getting public speakingand I got approached the
company, Edinburgh Cook Seeker Workshop and they can't be
(04:11):
coming or getting for the company.
And at that point I, I'd never be on stake and never be in
vogue really. But I was cranky, I was cocky.
I was very confident. I thought, yeah, why not get
that go never get coming, never get anything like that.
But that thing Yeah. And so when I guess I got the
(04:36):
job and that wasn't when you come back.
This was great because you got ayear crew when the the crafts
learn about how to beyond how tohow to make that work.
And then from the other girls came up, I I began to feel
(04:57):
answering that girl. I began to you begin to get work
and get to know people. And then there's a 25 years
breaker. Most go, go doing it, you know,
weird. I went back and go, I don't
quite know how that happened, but I'm quite glad to get.
(05:18):
So yeah. Well, lots of hard work, lots of
talent. You're all have all helped that.
But I didn't go go a lot of luck, you know, there ain't go a
lot of good folk singing, being and right place and right came
and you know, there's a lot of like welfare.
(05:41):
Yeah, But I think what I've learned from doing this show for
over nearly, you know, nearly coming up, this is our fifth
year of doing it. But from interviewing so many
people is I think often, I mean,I'm bad for some time saying I'm
just really lucky. And I do feel lucky.
But I do think as well, you makeyour own luck through hard work
and you create those opportunities through what you
do. So sometimes I feel like as
creatives where we always sort of caveat things by saying we're
(06:03):
quite lucky and it almost feels like we're putting ourselves
down by saying that. So I always try and think about
that. I think Oakland crack's got his
thing, you know? I think I've got his people.
Whenever the Yeah, I worked veryhard and This is why I got with
him today. It's not really a nature, but I
(06:23):
think it is a combination of luck and making the reclaim.
Yeah. There's so many things that come
into play. Yeah, completely, completely.
There's so much in your first answer, Robert, I kind of want
to unpack as well. You were talking about growing
(06:43):
up in the 90s with a disability feeling like theatre wasn't like
a sort of viable career. I mean, this podcast called Just
Get Rude. It was all about that idea of
people working in the arts not thinking like, you know, a
career and it's possible in people's pathways.
But like, I suppose to start, what do you think the
differences are between then andnow?
Because obviously you work with a lot of up and coming work
creatives through Birds of Paradise, especially around
(07:06):
disability and things. Do you think it's easier and
maybe now 30 years later than itwas when you were growing up?
And because, of course, there's still many barriers facing
artists today, but how, what's your sort of feelings on that?
I mean, it's definitely easier. There's there's more
opportunities and more pathways.I mean like yes, they'll get I
(07:27):
met with it because she will pray right And I'll think of
them about how her bag of film because we couldn't offer them a
job right now because we haven'tget the job offer them, I think
and we can't get in the you know, there's about 4K disable
protection Scotland now who I could live straight away and go
(07:50):
not that they're all you know, at the cop of the game that
they're all developing and cab working quite right.
Yeah, when I was growing up there were not fucking you see,
we'll play right in Scotland like that wasn't a thing.
So I look at that and go yeah, we have come a long way.
We have we've got a lot we've got a long week ago, but we'll
(08:15):
we'll yeah, we'll come a long way.
I think a lot of it is comfortable moguls.
So when I grew up, there were nocable book on TV and film or,
you know, there were no. So of course I didn't imagine
myself in there because I didn'tsee any brigade groups like me
(08:38):
in there. And now, you know, you've got
commission's, you get all those songs who've got cable
characters free by cable characters.
That's a big thing yeah it's notso big.
It's not so big because non disabled people and then seeing
(09:00):
disabled people on TV and they're relaxing that it's not a
big deal that you know, that being disabled, you know over
me, it's a big deal. But in other ways you can get on
with it and you make it work. So I think the the role like TV
filming play in normal action disability has been massive.
(09:27):
Completely. I, I think is that what you're
saying though, If you don't see something represented, then it
doesn't feel possible for you. And I think like from the
outside it does look like there's more of that on screen
and more it's more talked about as well.
So it feels more like normalizedand you know, like opportunities
will be equal for everyone. No, completely.
But I think there's obviously, as you say, there's still a lot
(09:47):
of work to do. And I mean, I'm neurodivergent,
I'm dyslexic and dyspractic and I do a lot of work on that in TV
to try and make the TV industry more accessible for people with
disabilities. I was lucky enough to be
involved in a film called Working Differently a few years
ago. All about that and
neurodivergence in the workplaceand stuff.
And it's great that we can have things like that.
(10:09):
But I do still feel like there'sso much work to do and and
that's why it's so lovely to have someone like yourself on
this show and, you know, to see something like Birds of Paradise
do so well and be such a trailblazer in the space.
Because, you know, unfortunately, there's a lot of
theatres still don't have the best disability access for
people to go and even see shows because of the way they're
built. I mean, the, you'll know more
(10:31):
than me. I'm, you know, as well, like
there's still a lot of work to do and things.
But something I want to ask you,Robert, as well, if you're happy
to talk about it, is do you mindtalking a bit about your
disability for our listeners? Because I've had, as I've
mentioned to you off air, had Jack Hunter on the show before.
He's got cerebral palsy. I've had Michael McKean on, I
think his name is on the show before as well.
(10:51):
So I mean, I think it's really important to speak to as many
different people across the aisles as possible and it's
lovely to get it. But if you're happy to talk
about it, I think it's always really nice to get your
perspective and stuff. I mean, when I I went to school
with my school so long game ago,I know, but I knew Jack well see
you get 3 guys with cable ponkeyonly two.
(11:15):
And there's a funny thing with my my the cat corrected bought
Marie. She's making a joke about quite
all those guys with cable ponkeythat are cooking myself.
I don't know if it's no fault. So yes, I, I was born with cable
policy, but it's basically a brain injury that happens during
(11:38):
birth and that affects a bit of your brain that that controls
like coordination, speech, balance, stuff like that.
So I can simply bring bring injury that affects how your
muscles move. The the CPE for exact, for
(12:10):
example, he can feel in my own CPE.
He can walk his speech. It can really affect me, you
know, because he could crack different experience to CPE.
But yeah, it's incredibly because a lot of the people that
I work with have all got CPE. I wonder what what brings us all
(12:33):
into the arts, but something about there's something here
that been quite gobby or quite. Yeah, don't look at enroll
finger home and speaker. It's quite interesting actually
from knowing the free of you andfrom chatting to the free of
you. You are all very, you're very,
and I mean Gobby is a compliment.
Like you were very outspoken andlike you just, I can imagine you
(12:56):
must be the same way. You're just, you're going to say
what you want to say and I love that.
That's really nice. And yeah, no, it is interesting
that you're all sort of working in the arts, but I think that's
brilliant And yeah, no, thank you for opening up about that as
well. I mean, it's just really
important to talk about that. A lot of people still don't
understand these things or don't.
They don't maybe want to ask because it feels like they
don't, you know? And that I think that's if you
(13:19):
can get a really important job where we can talk about things
that are going to be a bit more difficult to, to absolutely.
And we can we can do it in a story or we can put it on engage
in a way that makes it more relatable so that people are not
going, they're not going to all go that that thing called
(13:41):
disability over there. I don't understand it and I
don't know how cash to work it. That sort of fear doesn't help
any. But yeah, go and think.
No, completely. And I think what's lovely about
Birds of Paradise is work and some of the things you've been
involved with, as well as a lot of your shows are they're one,
they're universal as well. And they're not all just like
(14:03):
this is a, a show that's really sad and depressed.
And it's like you're making workthat is fun and that you don't
just have to, it doesn't have tojust necessarily always be about
disability. You, it's just you're, you're
making a show in an accessible way that's about lots of
different things. And I think that's really nice.
Yeah. I mean, I think I think when
they keep it from you, you can directly recognize that going to
(14:25):
the theater and quite a big ask,wait, how didn't you get at your
house, get question and get in the car and go to the venue and
over that. It's all a hassle.
Wig you can put on Netflix rightwhere why bother going to the
seeker 'cause to make it worth the hassle, we have to make it a
(14:46):
really good night out. We have to make it in cooking.
It doesn't mean that everything has to be happy.
You eat. You know, it's not that, but it
has to be worth the effort. You have to kill story.
The main people see things in a different way or that makes them
appreciate the world differently.
(15:09):
So that's great convenient convert.
How do we do that in wings that are in cocaine, wings that
surprise people in wings that make people think that's what I
will thank you. Good.
Disability is always a part of that, but you can always know.
You can always see it coming. So like we can get the things.
(15:32):
In 2018, My Left Foot was a big musical.
So most people come into that are going great.
I'm going along to see a big, bold musical.
Yeah, it happens that that's a big part of that.
That's about a disabled character.
But that's not, that's not what you're advocating.
(15:55):
It's not the flag that you're fighting.
You're getting people in and then once you got them in there,
then you can kill them, whateveryou want to kill them.
I always joke about the the goodthing about seekers that once
you sit down, obviously you can walk out, but you're not likely
(16:16):
to. So you're sort of stuck and I've
got you there for an hour and then 1/2 and I can make you
uncomfortable, I can make you laugh, I can make you cry.
I can do all these things to you.
And and that's quite rare because things like TV or film,
(16:37):
if you go like it, you can walk away.
You can come. Yeah, we see there.
It's how good could walk away from and that's what useful for
me. It's the completely, completely,
and sometimes you do all three of those things in one show and
you're like, wow, I've done it all.
Pride. And yeah, that's always the
(16:58):
magical part of it. I want to ask you a lot about
your sort of role, Boards of Paradise and the questions about
how you sort of art artist or director and things.
But just to go back slightly, like tell us about a time where
you went to the theatre when youwere younger and it did what we
just talked about to you. Do you remember going to the
theatre and seeing something that did all that?
I mean, when I thought I think my family were quite theatrical
(17:22):
and that they were part of an unground group where I grew up.
So even in these was like 4 or five, I was going along to
rehearsals and stuff. You know, there was the
Kingfinger baby because I was getting watch a rehearsal and
and that was what I grew up on. So I was going to bring that
(17:44):
theatrical world and I guess thinking about things like the
annual pan coming. So there'll be a week in January
where the suit was put on a panko for I think 500 people
every night would come to this panko.
And I also remember the the finale of a Panko when you got
(18:07):
the curve, the Rosen song that everyone sang here is all
anywhere. We're all happy.
There's no go home happy and be be part of the world again.
And even at a young age and remember that things not going
to something or being part of something that was bigger that
(18:31):
that I also enjoyed. And to me, that's why I think
that place you could go something that I think we might
equal your part or something bigger than your kill.
Completely, completely. And the other thing I want to
ask you to talk about your family being doing Amdram and
being very theatrical and stuff.Tell us a bit about your growing
(18:52):
up and your upbringing and and where are you from as well.
Tell us about where you're from and how that's influenced you
as. Well, yeah, I was born in work.
I grew up in a place called Kirkand Kirkwood.
So I'm a I'm a West Coast boy. I saw I was going into 80 'cause
I was feeling 85. A bit like you see what people
(19:14):
were going to special schools, but that we take the norm.
So I went and get special schoolin Glasgow corporate from park
up was what was 12 and they moved another special school
called Ash Creek. And these quite small schools
that were either were acceptable, but also were making
(19:35):
a way that disabled people couldget figures, could get speech
therapy, could get all these things that, you know, I mean,
school wouldn't have been possible with that kind.
But then we only come in 15. I realized that I didn't feel
part of this all special school environment.
(19:58):
I feel like I wasn't being challenged enough.
I wasn't being I wasn't around enough of my peers.
I was only ever around other disabled people.
And that come but weird feelingsa bit.
Yeah, it would be weird for any group get only be around that
group. Got 15, I started to move to my
(20:21):
local school called Grinchy Academy.
So for fifth year and 6th year, forgive my highest, I went to
Grinchy Academy, which was a massive change.
You know, in 1986 could go from little school of 120 pupils to a
school of 1600s. We'll give you a higher with
(20:45):
that. It was massive.
It was a massive cultural sketchas well, but it was great.
I I was getting me get a lot of these things there that came in
on a course. So they went to Glasgow Uni and
and it's funny, you're cooking, but you know, get a real.
(21:06):
I went to Glasgow uni to study computer science.
We got here. It was 1998, and computing
science was the thing that we all thought this was the makers
of Fortuning. And it was something that I
enjoyed. And I thought, yeah, this would
be great. You know, I'll get a career in
(21:29):
IKEA, do something like that. And then I got the second year
and I realized that everyone whowas doing completing things,
lovely people, but they were geeks, you know, they were.
So they were, they went in with Jackie people.
They were quite, you know, they weren't gonna be like you.
(22:06):
But again, like I didn't do thatbecause, well, I would never get
a German seeker, so why would you want a a seeker degree if
you can't work on it? And then literally 2 months
after I picked my owner I've gota German seeker and they all
(22:27):
came after that. Oh wow, thank you for sharing
your time and and upbringing stuff.
It was really interesting to hear about and but you also did
a bit of business management with your computing sciences,
didn't you? Yeah.
And that's interesting because Iimagine now that you're the
artistic director and CEO of Bird Paradise, you're probably
like, OK, this business does actually.
Quite useful because I'm kind ofalso.
(22:47):
Running a business. In a way, I use more of my
business degree than than I wantto believe.
But yeah, can so much, can so much for what we're doing
marketing it, it seems development it can.
(23:14):
Yeah. Completely, I actually think
that often creatively because I studied film and theatre union
and I did a screen written, I did a master's screen written
degree. But one thing I think back on
and something I tried to use thepodcast to do is I actually
think entrepreneurialism and business and stuff is as we just
(23:35):
touched on, it's really useful to know that stuff, whether you
work in theatre, TV, film, you're an artist.
We have to now sell ourselves, especially in the way that that
things work now and we have to build it, as you say, do the
spreadsheets apply for budget? So I think there's definitely
more we could probably learn from that sort of world.
And something I would like to domore of on the podcast here is
(23:55):
is interview those type of people for sure, because I think
it's really useful to. I think for a long time the sort
of the apps were were quite negative about you know,
business or marketing or any of that.
You know, I won't give me car. I don't want to talk about
advocating campaigns, but it's all part of the same thing you
(24:17):
it's like what I what I call a play the cake or that I give it.
It's part of her market that youalso I think it all it's not
part of the same sort of thing that we can work out you and
thank you again. You make me think of pouring
again. So at least I am thinking, I
(24:39):
think if you're not, you're justbeing self and you know, you
better self get home and do thatby yourself, but you're making
it for the audience. Therefore they have to come in
here. So that that is marketing, that
is developing a business, you know.
(25:00):
Yeah, I think it's all completely.
I think the way that we give youup isn't always helpful.
It's one part of the same sort of thing you.
Know definitely, I mean, it's really interesting and yeah,
something I think you're right. I just think it's creative.
Often creatively, we want to just go, I want to make the best
stories and we don't maybe we don't always like to think about
(25:23):
things like money or, you know, marketing, as you say, but I
think it's important to have, well, I suppose you just need
some people in your team that can do that.
That's the other thing that you,we're all got different skills.
You all know this from running ateam and working with people
like it's important to maybe know, well, I'm good at this,
but they're good at that. So do I mean, I'll, I'll share
our skills and stuff because we are, we are all different.
(25:44):
Yeah, thanks for me. No, it's really interesting.
I want to come back as well. So you're talking about you did
that first play in Edinburgh, you were saying and you did, you
had a one year contract. Tell us a bit about your pathway
then, Like was there a moment when you thought, you know, I
can make a career in theater, This might be possible now.
I don't need the computers anymore.
Let's get though. I think so like I'm talking
(26:08):
about when when you give that one year wrecking out your
contract, if you could work help.
I then built up concerts you getespecially amongst the sort of
guess completely seeker world atthat point.
It's got a small community, so we all got to know each other
pretty quickly. And that would be because then
(26:31):
when there's another girl comingup, you can go right, She'd be
good for that girl, but she'd begood for that girl.
So all became a real of getting other work.
So that's where for after that one year, I think for the next
two or three years, I came in from GILP to GILP and doing
(26:51):
other roles for other companies coming around the UK and that
was great. At the end in phases you think
when do you think you can make it to Korea?
I still don't think I have. I think there is a bit of you
that's always going well. I'll keep doing it for now and
(27:12):
then when people stop asking me to do it, I'll go and get a
proper Guild. And you know, I hear that half
jokingly, but I think, I think the minute you go right, I'm,
I'm yes, this is what I'm going to do forever.
I, I think you lose a little bit.
You spark or something, because you know, even though we'll
(27:37):
we'll, we can hear about fundingin Scotland.
So we'll go. Can we can we all hear a little
thinking and then we can all make plans and relax a little
bit and get on with good and work.
But at the moment we're all going well.
If we couldn't get a funny date,I could go back to my computer
kind stuff. You know, I could go back and
(28:00):
become a, a thinking or a a business development person.
You know, that's so there's always a fall back that you want
to have. And that's important because I
get open the house, it's never going to be secure.
And I go and it should be that secure because because you want
(28:24):
to keep making your best work. You want you want to keep once
once I start making films that are a bit dull and a bit
predictable and a bit comfortable, then I need to stop
giving this job. You and other people need to
(28:45):
come up and get a better job andkill me.
Keep a girl you. So that's what means like
complacency. I think it's a pretty dangerous
thing and seeker so I. Think it's a dangerous thing in
life actually. Yeah.
Yeah, but I think there's reallyinterest but.
(29:06):
Yeah, but I can imagine, maybe I'm wrong, but I can imagine
being a being a, a programmer orwhatever.
You can become a bit more comfortable about what you're
doing. Yeah, Yeah, we're telling we, we
can see. Yeah, you're going to be that
comfortable. You want, you want a wee, you
(29:27):
want to be a little bit hungry for 'cause that great, you can
make it work. That's so interesting.
I never thought about it in thatway before, but I suppose it's
that thing you're saying is you want to be kept on your toes
slightly so you don't just go, well, we've got, you know, I've
got 10 years to make all this. So see if this year's shows a
bit crap, then I suppose that's maybe like would the mindset
(29:49):
that would come into it. It's interesting.
I never thought about that because I'm something that
struggles. I struggle with not having
security or comfort, but maybe at the same time that drives me
to hard work harder. So it's like it's a bit as a
trade up, isn't it? But it's an interesting way of
looking at it. I really like the way you sort
of articulate. We always talk of it and see
because we haven't enough came, we haven't enough money.
(30:10):
We're always complaining about that and that's crew.
If I'm not I'm not getting any at the moment, but all coping.
You have got more can you get more money?
You got less pressure and but I work well under pressure.
I work well, can be clean. I need someone could be on my
back. So yeah, I think we won't.
(30:33):
Be careful what you wish for. I suppose if you want in a happy
balance, you want the funding opportunity, if you want the the
money and resources to make great fear and to build the more
sustainable industry completely because we're in a really shit
time at the moment where across the across the arts.
But at the same time, as you're saying, you also want to have
that hunger. So I suppose it's finding that
(30:54):
happy balance. Isn't it and I'm seeing that as
a very privileged person and then you see where I forgot what
of opportunity can meet working to do things.
So I fully recognize that peoplewill be watching this going
sorry for him because you but I but using getting a bit of
balance. You've got balance.
(31:16):
But I think you're very aware oflike and, and very like self
aware of your position. And I think you're very much
someone that has used their position to help others and to,
to what I like to say, put the ladders down behind you and help
people access the acts and get in from them.
And it's so vital. Hopefully, yeah.
I mean, it just feels obvious tome that I mean, a, a big part of
(31:40):
the argument that we always making into that we need more
good vestigators more. Like for 100 years, if you
could, I've been carrying the same stories over and over again
about point men, legally point men and they're all quick down
there. We can compare them over and
(32:01):
over again. So we need new stories.
New stories come from having more of their people in the
arts. So yes, I want to get more
people into the arts because I didn't get it right.
What's got a morally right, if you like, but but what we can, I
(32:23):
think it makes the work bigger. I think it's more interesting to
hear different stories. If it can cable stuff over and
over again, yeah. Yeah.
You want a range of voices, and you know, you want to.
As always, as you say, it makes it richer.
(32:44):
It makes the stories richer. Yeah, hello.
It's Jamie here. I hope you're enjoying this
week's episode. It's just a quick one for me to
say that if you're listening to the podcast on Apple, Spotify or
whatever platform you engage with our show on, be sure to
give us a follow or a subscribe as it goes a long way into
helping us grow and find new listeners as well as helping you
(33:05):
keep up with all the latest episodes and everything that's
happening. It just get a real job.
You can also support us by subscribing to our patron page
for the price of a cup of coffeeper month.
All the money we make goes back into the upkeep of the podcast.
Thank you for your continued support and we hope you enjoy
the rest of today's episode. I suppose a good question for
(33:27):
you then, in the position you'rein is what, what do you think
are the sort of main stumbling blocks at the moment in the
theatre and particularly in Scotland and the UK?
Like what are some of the thingsyou would if you had a magic
wand you would change? I think when they're in the
place where, especially in Scotland, I think a lot of the
seagulls know what the great guns and casting people have are
(33:52):
getting on boards and they want to find more disabled actors.
They want to put disabled peopleon stage.
You know, if I look, if I look back at Christmas, you know, the
air gear, guest performance and a pantomime, the lesbian, the
disabled performer, the Christmas show right away, the
(34:18):
three guest and disabled actors on stage in Scotland that would
have been unhelg up. But even five years ago, I think
we have moved forward and we've got a lot of great people.
I worry that because now the resources could become so scarce
(34:38):
that people see things like accessibility as a, an extra, as
a bonus. You it will do that if we can
forget. And the problem is that when
when resources are cut back, those are the things that are
cut back on because you it cost too much or experience things or
(35:00):
whatever. And so that's where we know that
that we need to hang on to that stuff and keep moving forward.
And the hope, the hope with morefunding comes the government.
I hope that that will keep getting better.
I think I'll call. We keep you, keep doing it, keep
(35:21):
making mistakes, keep trying newthings.
And you 3 actors in Scotland being in Christmas shows, we are
guessing. It's great, but still way too
small, you know? Yeah, there's nothing really.
It's a drop in the ocean. Yeah.
A. Lot more so we need to keep get
(35:42):
more people into the case you are disabled gifts and the other
wings gave us you can make it a much more exciting picture you
know so yeah, we're I feel that we're in the right direction
we're moving here there. Yeah.
No, completely. Do you think I'm just, I mean,
(36:05):
asking from your own experience as well, do you think I'm an
issue? Because there's something I've
observed in TV and I listen, I used to work in TV development.
And I think we're all guilty of this accidentally because we all
have hidden biases and we all want to work with people we
know. But do you think a problem is
people often just hire who they know well, who they're maybe
friends with, who right isn't right in front of them.
So say you're, I don't know, a casting director for a big
(36:27):
theatre company or something. And you don't really have many
disabled friends or friends of colour or friends who, you know,
whatever background they're from.
And all your friends kind of just look, look and sound like
you. And you just, and it's not even
malicious. You're just like, oh, I'll hire
them because they're right there.
Do you think that's quite a, do you think that's the same in
theatre? Because I think that happens in
TV all the time. I think it's a major part of the
(36:50):
issue is, and you can understandwhy because there's so much risk
already in what you're doing. You know, keeping film, he's
spending so much money that could take a a pint on someone
who might go over the goods but may not is a big risk.
Whereas if it's only that, you know, if it's only that you're
(37:13):
like, yeah, I know they can go over this job, then you're gonna
yeah, you, you, you just play ita little bit safe.
I don't know how we ever get over that because I think it's
not even got through instincts. I know that I do.
I know that I, I know that I go,OK, I'll go with them because I
(37:37):
know they can do the job and guns.
And if I didn't do that, the endresult isn't as good.
And then people say, well, why was that play not as good?
So, you know, if you want kind could make quality and take a
big risk at the same time. It's very difficult to do and
(38:01):
but it's where we need to go. It's what we need to do.
We also need to start making friends with people who are not
like us. You know, that's, I mean, go
back to my earlier comment aboutbeing especially school and
recognizing that I was surrounded by disabled people.
(38:22):
And that was a bit strange to mebecause the world getting old
disabled, the world getting old way, anything.
So that's nothing for me but a variety.
The people that we mix less, thepeople that we incorrect with,
the people that we. Yeah, I think it's more variety.
(38:48):
And that goes back to my point about the scurries that were put
on skates. You're thinking if we can scurry
into the audience with the cablepeople that they're not familiar
with and that that's not an openhorizon, broadens the horizon
and then they go, OK, maybe I could mix with other people.
(39:13):
So all that's not about big circular motion here.
Hopefully that comes together. No, Brilliant.
I completely agree with you. I think that's some really nice
points. So.
And I think you're right about risk.
I think risk is, I don't know, it's the natural thing, isn't
it? Especially when money, money's
limited, Yeah. Risk.
This sounds great, like we know the ideal risk globally, but in
(39:39):
practical terms, risk cost money.
And if it doesn't work, then it doesn't work.
Yeah, it's difficult. I think we just may be sometimes
in the arts, we need to, especially from broadcasters or
and you know, fear companies or whatever it might be and we need
(40:01):
to maybe just allow more opportunity for people to fail.
I think often TV will make a series and go not what it'll
bomb. Say we make a series, no one
watches it. We'll just not make another
series. Whereas back in the day, I feel
when there's more money or time,you could take a punt and
because often stuff gets. Better in a second series are,
you know, you do a show and it maybe doesn't work, but then you
rewrite it slightly and it playsamazing.
(40:23):
So I think it's like trying to have that attitude that things
can fail, and that's a good thing because you learn from
failure. I completely agree in theory.
The problem is like now we are surrounded by so much, getting
so many like algorithms that kept us where things were going
(40:44):
wrong with. If you look at, they know.
They know the point of when people stop watching their
programs. Yeah, they know.
That's. Very true.
They know that they stop watching it, you know, 32
minutes. So therefore at that point you
have to do something that will keep them watching and you know,
(41:04):
I love we can know you. This isn't coming from someone
who isn't in favour of Kick, butI do worry that it eliminates
that opportunity for risk. Because we can, we'll get so
much knowledge about Yeah, aboutwhat works and what doesn't
(41:25):
work. And then you get the whole EI
question of you, at some point EI will be able to make a
perfect play or a perfect film, and then you go over that.
That's deeply worth worrying. We can close No, perfectly, but
it'll cry, you know, it will getfun gigging.
(41:48):
Yeah. It's.
I think we can give you very careful.
We were going. Yeah.
I suppose just have curiosity, have you used much AI in your
company? Because this is something I'm
not. I feel very conflicted on the AI
thing. So I mean, I'm not talking about
as much in the show before, but I've started using AI for the
podcast now because I run this myself on the side of a full
(42:09):
time job. Anything that makes my life more
efficient. I mean, it's still all my work,
but as a dyslexic person as well, AI is actually so helpful
to me because it's the best spell checker I've ever had.
Like when I was at school, I wasusing an alpha smart and stuff.
Now I've got this amazing tech and I think it's wonderful in
some ways because it helps me. I don't know, it just helps me a
lot in some ways. But at the same time, I do get
(42:30):
where people are really scary ofit, scared of AI, and I don't
want it to replace my creativity.
I just wanted to use it to help me create my work and get my
stuff across. But do what do you think about
it? Do you use it much in Birds of
Paradise or anything? When using it a little bit, I
mean, we're getting some work inNepal, for example, and I was
(42:51):
like, I've got a script here that's in English, no one could
translate it. And can you please, no Google
Translate can get a wee bit of that, but the quality of Google
Translate was never that good because it didn't understand
what you're saying. If, you know, stick it through
(43:13):
AI in here, I'm waiting to cancel it.
And can you please, you get a much better end result.
Still not perfect, but it's better.
I so we use, we use, yeah, a little bit of things like that.
I think I'm quite a controlled freak.
So, for example, if I'm getting AI could do my social media
(43:37):
posts, I go back and I give thembecause I think that I can break
it better than yeah, I can. So I'm I'm, I'm I'm way not way.
I keep. I think, yeah, it's not as good
yet as it would be once It is great.
I think we'll be using it a lot more at the moment.
(44:00):
I think it's still it's still developing.
We're still working at what it can do.
You know, we're still when you when you actually I could got a
picture of your show getting 4 fingers and things like that.
What you're going to you, you'renot that in so but I do think I
think it will be very difficult time because we need to look at
(44:25):
what we give you so far. We give you so far, but but it's
not going away. So we have to watch over this
out. Embrace.
Yeah, yeah. It's a tricky 1 for sure.
Maybe not, maybe not embrace, but at least at least work with
(44:48):
it. You know, like I'm, I'm not
giving you that's. A bad way of putting it.
Yeah, we've got to have to love it.
We have to know anything clear, you know I.
Think that's a Yeah, I think that's probably a better way of
describing it. Well, thank you for answering
that as well. I want to let's talk about Birds
of Paradise in particular then, because obviously last year you
(45:10):
celebrated for eight years you've been in post there, what,
10 years you've been the artist director 12.
Years, yeah. 12 years, wow. Tell us about your 12 years
being artist director and stuff.How, how is the company growing?
And tell us a bit about the company for those that might not
know, because we've got listeners all across the world
(45:31):
actually so. Yeah, I mean quite a years
sounds like a long time and I take a long time.
The first couple of four years Iwas part of came from three gigs
a week. And there was another occasion
director who was also part of came and see guy work together
and we also work separately on different productions.
(45:53):
And we we had a great relationship and gone very well.
Gary Robson was him Gary and Bosley and died last year.
So I think it was like a great colleagues and friends.
And so Gary I worked together for for five years and then Gary
(46:14):
left and I got bitching. The cool came OK, go back and
that being really interesting Junior because you cranky quail.
I'm walking away. And then I could you know, we
(46:34):
had cranky cranky. We had the pandemic and
everything tinky. So cranky, cranky about cranky 3
doesn't really count because we're doing a lot of stuff.
But there wasn't, it wasn't likemaking Tikka in the way that we
were doing before. It was very different how it
(46:55):
used to be. And when they're back to that
old rear missing Tikka, like taking quite a while to get back
there. A lot of what we've done in the
last couple years has been a very freaking dreamy, high
quality secret on skates always trying to you, you can always
get it right, but you're always aiming to meet great shows that
(47:20):
people want to come and see and the people are in cooking by.
And a lot of that is because theonly things before you see
cable, it's great, like the cable people can do this, but
you know, they're not that good,are they?
So the quality argument, we can be important in the same way
(47:45):
that when we speak to other companies, we have to go why you
not and bring the cable access to the legal world.
They're not that good, but it became our job to show how good
they can be so that we take awaythat excuse.
So the lack of years will be a lot about doing excellent work
(48:09):
on stage, supporting other and disabled artists could give up
their craft and then supporting other companies could become
more inclusive, more accessible.So we talk about these three
strands, Bob Seger for We Make the Work Bob Development, we
(48:32):
Support Other People and then Bob PT, they support other
companies and they all work together.
But that could be kind of good they get out yeah or other what
we do going for international there because of the people from
other countries. So like I say, we're working in
(48:53):
Nepal and over last five years we covered Mexico, Brazil and
Rwanda and Nepal. India will cover the lot of
countries where they want to develop a simple guard and they
want to become secret makers andwe hopefully be able to help
(49:19):
them think a way you could do that.
We're not. We're not going to deal with all
the answers, so we're going to see here's how we're going to
evolve. Can we give you a little bit of
support to make it work for you?That's.
Brilliant. I love what you were saying
about the quality thing as well.Like almost so defiant.
(49:40):
It's like, well, you know, if you're going to doubt us, then
we're going to make sure we havethe best quality and we'll prove
to you that you're wrong. And I think that's so important
and you have done that. I mean, like I think people talk
about birds of paradise around, I mean, this industry with such
like high regard, like, you know, you guys are like leaders
in what you do. And I mean, you, you don't need
me to tell you that. Like I think a lot of the
(50:00):
quality, you know, speaks for itself.
And I think it's wonderful that you've been able to help, you
know, create that and lead that.And I mean, it's really
important and really inspiring as well.
I'll suppose I want to ask you about what your role as Aceo and
artistic director sort of entails like, because that's
different to just as we were talking about being a creative
(50:22):
and being an actor and stuff. What are the sort of free sort
of maybe humans love the number 3, but what are free skills you
think that would are quite important to do in that job?
There's something about playing a Hague.
So we're just getting a businessplan for 2025 to 2028.
(50:43):
Now in reality, we've got no idea what can happen in 2028
because you know, I've I've not got a magic ball in the world.
Could be pretty different. But you have to some degree of
ability to go, OK, The audience won't see what in this area or
(51:07):
talking about this sort of thing.
So there's a there's a little bit of foresight forecasting and
sort of trying to work out where, where things are going in
the world. And, and what they were getting
sort of Katie by like. So that's I think #1 is that
sort of Mystic make aspect of being a Kitty director.
(51:32):
I think the second big, big one is he still got working with
people. I directors and I can see
directors and get a hurricane because people say, well, oh,
you guys and play other people and they go with the hard work
and and you're like, well, yeah,that my job is to employ the
(51:55):
best people and to let them get on with the best money that they
can that that actually get up. You know, there's no there's no
shame in that. That's that's what we do.
And So what they get up with somebody understanding people
and about trying to work out. OK, if I get you and you
(52:17):
together, what will happen? What will I end up?
What will be that work and all of it in some match matchmaking
or getting people together and hoping that they make something
shaking from that. So that's number two.
(52:38):
Number three, I think getting something about risk, you know,
we've always got not enough money, not enough came, not
enough recourse. And then something about as a as
a CEO being able to take a risk,that's not a stupid risk.
(53:00):
That's not, you know, like you go in and be going, yeah, let's
do it anyway we could, you know,we're opening up bankrupt.
But you still need to keep risk in the Mets.
You still need to. So there's a bit of minds of
that risk of it going when you say yes, when you say no, quite
(53:22):
a big thing. Yeah, completely.
No. Thank you very much for your
answer. And you were talking about your
sort of three-year business planstuff.
But tell us is there anything coming up at Birds of Paradise?
What is the sort of what are your plans for the future?
Well, like you gave me finger then your January of little fun
games for them quite a lot that depends on that.
Not that you know this is make or break, but getting quite a
(53:46):
big factor in terms of the the steel loop we grew.
Yeah, we'll go in the game. We'll get a pre gig at the
moment in Nepal from March. That will be in that will be pre
Yankee getting actually thinkingNepal, and we'll be waiting to
see that around the world as well.
(54:08):
So keep an eye on the website. We're all cooking a pre paying a
paint, which is sort of Scottishinstitution now Raker in
Edinburgh create a new brief with I think I'll be directing
that play in me. So that'll be all in Glasgow.
(54:28):
Me the Rakers called Simon G, who's a great disabled New York
American breaker who yeah, he can create a a green.
We'll get a lot of development stuff for the pop.
Young artists are a group of people who are coming together
(54:52):
to develop performing skills. So they that starts in February.
They're going to come together for some workshops and to work
together. And then we're then saying the
rest of the year developing skills is performance.
So we'll get more disabled actors are in the world and in
(55:12):
Scotland. So these things are ongoing at
the moment, but until we know a bit of funding we can't really
know what. Still we can look after that.
And quite a bitch. Is that a big question mark for
the moment? Yeah, well, fingers crossed by
the the funding is all positive.And just for people watching and
(55:33):
listening, there's links to about the Paradise underneath
the show so you can find out more about the company and, and
find Robert and stuff online andall that and so and keep an eye
on what he's doing. I've just got two more questions
for you, Robert. I appreciate your time so much
today. And, and one of them is what's
the biggest lesson you've learned in your career so far?
(55:56):
It's like when we asked this before I, I sort of make a
flipping joke. And now that I think it's not
that flippant, I think we're very, we're very guilty now for
seeing you keep going, go and give up.
Just keep keep crying and makingit work.
My thing is actually the opposite of that.
(56:18):
Like some things it's some way to give up.
Some things if you're cracking your thing, it's not working for
years and years. Maybe you're going home sort of
thing. Maybe you we're we're not all
beginning to be record or correct or whatever things that
other things that you are beginning to be.
(56:42):
Yeah. So some, so I think we're
beginning things. Keep going, keep trying, but
also go be afraid of giving up and I'll get government giving
up on everything. But I mean what you know the
course that you're going in, thecorrection that you're going in,
(57:03):
it's not a single direction at all.
Quest can come and go up and go in West and rain.
That's OK. Go with that Rick, enjoy the
rage, but but be up for case correction.
Yeah, I, I love that. I mean, that's so true.
And I think often people forget as well, sometimes the
destination you think you want, it's not actually going to make
(57:25):
you happy and it's not what you want anyway.
So I think if you're right, sometimes you have to just feel
that what, where am I at and could have pivot slightly.
I think it's been able to pivot when you need to do.
I think it's all true and. If you got me, Quincy, what I've
been doing at 45, it's not what I'm doing now, but I love what
I'm doing now. So you know that you have to be
(57:49):
up for, right? It's not built like bring your
own skies. And there's some actors who work
out there. I'm going to do this and then
I'm going to do that. And then I'll feel like this and
then I'll do that. And when you won't react and put
that, it's a bit weird because they're going to open it in the
(58:11):
heck and like they're doing it well, but they're not reacting
to anything. They're not in the moment.
I guess looking at being in the moment, reacting to what's
around you is much more, I think, much more valuable than
having a master plan and skipping to it.
(58:32):
Yeah, completely. And it's hard to do that
sometimes. But you know, I mean, that's a
really nice answer, really nice answer.
Sort of closing question for youthen, Robert, what would your
closing advice be to anyone thatwants to work in theatre,
particularly because that's yourarea of expertise?
Especially in Scotland, it's about your network, it's about
(58:54):
who you know, it's about gettingold people and getting them to
want to work with you. That that is #1 priority and how
you do that can very angry kings.
But people need to want to work with you.
So look at what you're, what you're gimmicky, what you're,
(59:17):
what you bring to the cable, what you're saying is, and then
go and sell that to people. Kill Romeo.
I'm a great puppet maker or I'm a great voice person or whatever
it is. Look at what you're saying.
And then network, network, network getting old people.
(59:37):
And then I think it comes, it guns come.
Just to something I'm just to quickly, I spend this really
good advice and just want to quickly ask one more thing as a
part of your answer. Because there's a lot of people
that I know who listen to the show who messaged me sometimes
and say I'm an introvert or I'm quite shy and I'm not good at
networking. What would you say to those
people? Do you just think, think outside
(59:58):
the box maybe, or try and find away that suits?
You there are various ways to network.
You know, it's like I hate goingto receptions because everyone's
at a standing height. I mean, people feel they're on
cock and wait. I hate it's loud.
I got speech and payment. They can't hear what I'm saying.
(01:00:20):
I hate networking events. So if that's not for you, that's
fine. Get one to one meeting, meet
people for a coffee. You know, people are quite
biggie, so maybe they go reply, get them to come along to think
that you're doing and tell them that you'll come and sit in the
(01:00:42):
restroom. Find ways to meet people that
that work for you. You know, there's a lot of
introverts in the theatre, but like, I think that's the idea
that we're already outgoing in brass.
I think most secret people I know hate being a lot of people
(01:01:05):
you, because when you think about what we do, we stand up on
stage and we get everyone to be quiet when we go.
We're not really into people winking.
You watch. So being incorrect, it's not a
problem, but it's about working out how you can network and the
(01:01:27):
way that works for you. You you Instagram, it's now such
a powerful way of networking with people.
Make videos and talk about what your passions are.
Make talking about the play thatyou want to write and then get
(01:01:49):
it up there. You know, there's so many ways
to get things out there now thatthat that work for you, even if
you even isn't yet working in the old fashioned way doesn't
That's another week. That's another way to network.
Yeah, it totally is, Totally is.And I didn't even consider when
(01:02:11):
you were talking about how for you going to a networking event
like you know, like one of thosereceptions like with your
disability and stuff, it's already like it's excluding you
from that space. And that's so true that I think
it's, I mean if you're deaf as well, like I have a few friends
that are deaf and they can't go to networking events in that
way. So I think there's an industry
wide issue. We need to get better at
organizing more accessible network and that's another
(01:02:31):
topic. But what I can do is e-mail
people directly and go, OK, likefor coffee or you like, like
networking events. I don't think you're that useful
for anybody, actually. No, because no one who's
actually making work goes to them anyway, because they don't
need to go working. So you're completely.
Very good. Exactly.
(01:02:52):
So yeah, I think, I think we think they're great, but they're
not that great anyway. But yeah, I think the way that
works for you. Completely, Robert, thank you so
much for your time this afternoon.
This is such a nice way to spendthe lunch break, honestly.
Keep doing what you're doing, man.
I was like, it's really inspiring to chat to you.
It's honestly such a pleasure. And as you know, you're so
(01:03:12):
passionate and so articulate andyeah, you're killing it, man.
So it's good to see. So thank you so much for your
time. Thanks for having me on.
Thank you.
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