EP. 166 – Storytelling, Social Mobility & Building a Hit Podcast with David McIntosh Jr. - Just Get A Real Job

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
David, it's a pleasure to have you on Just Gary, which I've
been working with you for the last sort of four or five months
you've been coaching. He helped me with my rebranding
of my podcast. So it's, yeah, it's lovely to to
have you on the show. I'm so glad to be on Just get a
real Job, Jimmy. I appreciate what this podcast
stands for. I think it's such a worthwhile
and needed show for your industry and I think you've done

(00:21):
an amazing job running it, so it's a pleasure to be invited.
On your show, it's so nice to have you here and you're about
to sort of relaunch your own show When this episode goes out,
I think you will have relaunchedit.
So just to sort of start the episode like you start yours,
like what is your origin story? They would tell us about that I.
Feel like a Marvel superhero. The genesis story.
Kind of traditional working class upbringing with some

(00:44):
unconventional events. Very privileged and a weird way
to have grown up and such a working class environment.
Grew up in a council estate and Prestwick to my mother and my
father. They were together throughout my
childhood, which was a luxury, but things were a bit more
turbulent. Grew up on the breadline,

(01:05):
received things like Provident loans and payday loans just to
keep us afloat. There was an ambient sense of
financial hardship that manifested itself in both
anxiety and depression in the household, both of which you
could place a word financial in front of because that was the
root cause. I was very lucky to have access

(01:26):
to the Internet at that moment and time in my life because I
could look online and see peoplethat were doing things a bit
more aspirational than me. Jimmy and I used a lot of that
tilling alongside some early origin stories that kind of
passed by my life, including Scotland richest man Sir Tom
Hunter sharing his story at my high school.

(01:48):
That led me to not believe that I was going to be successful,
but I could believe that things could get better.
So yeah, started I can finance career which was aided through a
social mobility charity which I care deeply about and was able
to gain financial security, education, purpose, meaning.

(02:09):
And alongside that, I got to, I guess, hand down a bit of rope
for my only bit of rope to people that were just below me
or just behind me in the journeyof doing the same.
And I that manifested itself in doing a lot of social mobility
advocacy and starting my podcast, which is directory of

(02:30):
Role models. Role models that I wish I had
maybe 5-6 years before that. I think what's mad about a lot
of that stuff is you're still, you're still very young, like
you've done all this stuff at quite a young age and like quite
like, I don't know, you'd brokenfree of a lot of that.
It's easy when you come from a work class back and to not have
the aspiration and to not see itas like a, a viable option and

(02:51):
stuff. And you've sort of broke free
from that almost that like made a lot of things happen.
And I have someone I want to talk to you about in this
interview, as well as about being a sort of entrepreneur and
being creative at the same time.And like Gordon being a bit of a
self starter and making things happen.
Like that's not something that naturally comes to me as
something I'm having to learn. And I feel like you're such a
good example of someone in the podcast space that sort of just

(03:12):
goes and does things like quite a rapid rate and it's very
impressive. I appreciate that.
That's such a nice observation. I've never really thought about
that before. I think when you come from
backgrounds of insecurity, of little resource, you have no
option but to be resourceful, totake more risks, to take bigger

(03:34):
swings, because ultimately you have nothing to lose.
And I think perhaps that's wherethat comes from for me, knowing
how bad things have been. Tapping into that is my
motivation source. I think that has been a
privilege. My hardships have totally been
my privilege. And I don't want to come on here
and do this whole rags to richestape story or the war is me.

(03:57):
But I think a lot of the traits that I have come from my
upbringing. I love this quote by former
First Lady Abigail Adams when she says the habits of a
vigorous mind are developed and contending with great difficulty
when a young mind is raised by scenes that engage the heart,
traits that would otherwise lay dormant waken to life and form

(04:19):
the character of the superhero. I hold that so dear to me, I
really do. And I think just the nature of
how I grew up, the the lack of opportunity, the lack of
awareness to opportunity is whatI tap into now.
And I'm very grateful for that upbringing.
My mom and dad did the best theycould based on their

(04:39):
circumstances and my job now is to do the same.
And I would be doing my parents at the service.
I'd be doing my own origin storeat the service if I didn't take
big risks because that's what got me here.
And hopefully I can do the same to help others get there and
help my kids have a better upbringing than me.
I'm not here to say that people should be more working class and

(05:02):
embrace more hardship. It was hard, like going week to
week not knowing whether you were taking a packed lunch to
school or having holes in your clothes or some of the mental
health and addiction of travesties that kind of full
foul Ranger Council state. Those were hard and I don't want
my kids to have those either. So I don't want to like try and
promote this hardened mainset, this embrace tough times mainset

(05:27):
too much because I hope that people that are listening to
this have a better upbringing than me and I'm just lucky that
I can use mine now as a gift in terms of my aptitude and
attitude towards new tasks. I think it was interesting about
something I've really tried hardto do in the last few years,
particularly because when I was a student, I remember thinking
like often just anyone that was from a better off background

(05:48):
than me, just instantly going onlike reverse snobbery almost.
And I think it's important now. I try to like remind myself,
like you can learn from other people instead of just writing
people off because at the end ofthe day, like, not most people
don't. They can't.
You can't really help where you come from.
And you can probably be a bit ofan asshole if you're from a
working class burger and or if you're really rich.
So, you know, it's nuanced, isn't it?
It's such a good observation as well.

(06:10):
I totally agree. I went through a phase.
I remember one of my close friends, one of my best friends
growing up, Taylor, loved that guy, showed Taylor Patterson.
Not sure if we can do shows in this podcast, go for that.
But honestly, the humblest, loveliest guy and growing up
alongside him, I was going through this very liminal,
transformative, you know, 18 to 21 year old period.

(06:30):
And loads of things were changing in my life
environmentally, financially, and I was working really hard,
applying myself in numerous different ways, just trying to
make ends meet, trying to becomeresourceful, be entrepreneurial.
And he at the same time was not progressing in university,
wasn't utilizing his spare time well.

(06:52):
But his upbringing was very safe.
It's secure. His parents worked so hard,
first generation kind of social mobility worked so hard that he
didn't have to have a part time job or have to be
entrepreneurial to have pocket money or spare change.
And I remember resenting that Jamie and create a barrier
between me and him because I wastrying to force my worldview

(07:13):
onto him and I couldn't quite understand his.
And as I have been able to learnfrom hundreds of origin stories
and really learn about what social mobility means, I
realized that that was such a toxic way to think.
And we wouldn't do that across any other characteristic or
diversity characteristic. Like I know a lot of working

(07:33):
class people that slag those whogo ski holidays, for example.
That's. Actually, I covered the show
last night. That was a bit better.
That's when there was the. Right.
And like they create stereotypesand create bits and jokes and
sketches about that kind of lambasting it and bastardizing
it. But in fact, I would love to go
ski holiday, mate. I would love that.

(07:55):
But we wouldn't do that across any other diversity
characteristic. We wouldn't pick a sexuality or
a race and then like mock their stereotypes, for example.
But why? Why do we find that acceptable
with class? So I've had to reengineer that
thought process. But I also realised
reengineering that thought process is a luxury as well
because I can only do that now that I have become more socially

(08:18):
mobile. I guess if I was still living
hand to mouth or a moment I was still living in my dad's
counsellor state relying on payday loans, then I don't think
I would have the luxury to then not have that belief that people
from upper middle class are evilor different or malicious.

(08:39):
I think it's only because I've got the survivorship bias or
survivorship story or social mobility bias that I can now
profess the working class isn't the lesser class in the eyes of
the middle class. Yeah, it's also hard when you're
in fight or flight, like a lot of people are in that.
Like, you know, Simon's club talks about this a lot.
Like he's, I mean, I really quite like some of the work he's
doing. But he talks about if people are

(09:00):
in fact, when he stops on the street and says what's your
dream all the time. They aren't from working class
very concerned fighting flight. They're just surviving week to
week. So it's hard, as you say, to
have that like, you know, perspective and think, you know,
maybe not everyone who's done well for themselves is evil.
And maybe they, you know, because they're millionaires,
they actually are invested in the economy and, you know, their
taxes are helping us. I mean, obviously there's people
that are exploiting the system, but that's not everyone, you

(09:23):
know. So I think it is an it's a
nuanced discussion. I, I really enjoy that thought
because I agree that most peopletotally resonate with us, like
are living meal to meal day by day, paycheck to paycheck.
They can't think strategically about their life.
They don't have the luxury to think if money, fame and status
was no option, how would I live my life And I'm going to pursue

(09:43):
that. They can't renounce the 9:00 to
5:00. They can't renounce the the
shift work. They might be doing the night
shifts. And I think being able to have
such a strategic main shift mindset towards your own life is
a bit of a luxury belief or doesn't seem feasible for that
that group of people who are living in a fair flight because
all they care about is where? Where's the next check coming
from? Where's the next benefit coming

(10:03):
from? Where's the next meal coming
from? How am I going to keep my kids
warm during winter? And it's probably why climate
change doesn't proliferate as a message to working class people,
especially those who are aided by government initiatives,
because they don't really care if their food is organic or
comes in plastic packaging or not, because they're just caring

(10:25):
whether there is food on the table.
They don't care if they're usingsolar panels or not because they
just care whether the house is warm or not.
And I think this long term strategy towards life as a
luxury belief to those who can afford to think in that manner.
Yeah, completely. Because also like with climate
change, it's not an immediate thing that's affecting their
life either. If like their roof was blowing
down because of it, it would maybe go, Oh, because as you

(10:47):
say, it's a long term thing. So it's hard to have that
perspective. I want to, I want to hone in on
origin stories because you're wearing the T-shirt of the
rebrand and stuff. But like what it what does
origin story mean to you? Because you've you think about a
lot of things in that frame. And also like, you know, that's
that's the new name of the show change from the, you know,
development by David to origin source.
So what? What does the term origin story

(11:07):
mean to you? Learning from an origin story is
the discovery of self through the detour of the other.
We all have an origin story and they don't start with a plan, it
starts with a moment in time. Your genesis.
Every athlete, every great, every founder, everyone has one.
We both do too. And I think especially in this

(11:31):
fast fashion consumerism, AI driven world, especially with
social media having, giving, giving us dopamine every corner
of our lives, we're not asking how or why.
And it's part of this broader social mobility message of like
renouncing how I've almost bastardized certain classes,

(11:56):
like learning that everyone has an origin story, you, me and
otherwise. And each of those would set as a
own individual biography on a library.
And if you were to pick up each an individual book, you would
learn something. And I, I now realize that one of
the best questions you can ask someone is what is your origin
story? There's so much Intel that comes
from that and like, I really believe life is a movie and your

(12:21):
eyes or the cameras, your ears on the microphone and you get to
pick up on other people's originstories in such way.
But life is really like a movie and there's an award-winning
actor that no one else can play,and that's you.
And if you embrace your origin story, you can tap into Intel,
information, highlights, low lights, and everything in

(12:43):
between that no one else can because only you have lived your
life. And I realize there's just as
much merit in a celebrity originstory than there is the old
women that you bumped into in the coffee shop this morning.
We are all a lattice of unique data points through experience
that both shared and internalized can lead to self
discovery and betterment of the world.
And I think the greatest travesty is that people live and

(13:07):
die without hearing the sound oftheir own voice and their own
story. And life just becomes way more
filler when an origin story is embraced.
That's such a lovely answer. And I think we talked about this
a lot, like the joy of podcasting as we get to tell
stories, but we get to hear people's stories as well because
both our podcasts, we're interviewing people.
And we'd also spoke about sometimes you put the value of a

(13:28):
podcast on the biggest guest you'd had on.
We'll talk about Jimmy Carr and some of the big guests you'd had
today. But like sometimes it's actually
not the biggest guest that always have the most interest in
origin stories, the people that you interview and you're like,
whoa, like that's insane. And I think it's such a joy to
get to hear people's origin story.
Yeah, I really think it's your relationship with the research

(13:49):
as well that allows to create that magnet effect.
I have related to more everyday stories on my podcast than I
have some of the celebrities because there's common ground.
We're living in the same kind ofliminal space, and we can
provide each other with solace or get solace from each other
because we're going through similar experiences.

(14:11):
And I think for better or for worse, shared suffering brings
people together. There's accounts during the
Blitz whereby families were happy and cheering and laughing
in the underground when bombs were going off because they were
going through this horrible thing together.
Yeah. And I think I've gained a lot of
that from some of the similar stories to mine that I've had on

(14:34):
on the show. So yeah, I think it's such a
privilege and a gift to have a platform to share origin
stories, because I really believe an origin story is a
gift but not yours to keep. It's a baton and a forever
really race that you pass on to the next.
Just expand that as well. Like how can we use origin
stories, for example, in the workplace?
Do you think we employers can tap into that for people

(14:56):
individually? I think the opposite of it.
I think showing the the inverse will show the effects of why not
embracing an origin story is detrimental to the workplace.
Of course, workplaces have key performance indicators.
They have business objectives, they have goals and understand
that human resources act as a engine to make those things
happen. So understand that businesses

(15:17):
have strategic goals. First.
All that to be said, if an organization doesn't allow
people to bring their whole selves to work, and I know
that's quite a wanky phrase, butlike if they don't allow to
their employees to bring their whole self to work, they're
actually curtailing and losing out A lot of innovation coming
from a certain geographic location, being a migrant or an

(15:39):
immigrant, having a certain sexuality, being a mother, well,
choose your path. All of those have data points,
information and innovation that can be used, especially when
organizations are trying to serve everyday problems.
They need to understand the everyday person.
But what I love, especially corporate careers and financial

(16:00):
services careers, they create a caricature of what a typical
employee should look like or feel like or seem like in those
organizations. And what it creates is something
called a deficit discourse, whereby an erosion happens of
thought patterns and slangs and those synchronies of a certain
group. And they all kind of assimilate

(16:20):
into like a very similar versionof each other.
And AI is doing the same. It's one of the things I I fear
for AI is that someone with culturally rich intelligence,
for example slang or creativity or something that's very
pertinent to a certain region, they put this into AI and AI
essentially spits out a very PC.Bland.
Bland vanilla, correct quote, UNquote, correct answer and that

(16:44):
creates a feedback loop to the inputter that what they put in
was wrong and what they spot what AI spot out was right and
it erodes that part of their identity.
And then they just start sellinga fake ID of themselves in the
workplace and outside of it. That's interesting.
My AI, I think I somebody's needto be careful with that because
I, I, I think AI has been a great tool to help streamline
the podcast that in terms like, you know, optimize strategies

(17:06):
and things to like with my workload.
But I never like like, I don't know, I don't like it to give me
questions for interviews, for example, because it's completely
that way. You're like, no, something I
think of could be so much more. Exactly.
And what becomes your unique selling point if it's not you,
like if AI is writing this show,then why would anyone listen to
it? Because what people come and
stick around for is you, Jamie. It's why I'm so delighted to be

(17:26):
on the show is because I really like you and you.
I love when you follow your nosein terms of your curiosity when
asking guests questions or even picking guests.
And if I'm not buying that, wellthen what am I buying?
You can. Get it anywhere.
Get it anywhere. Yeah, I spent, that's one of the
things we need to be aware of inthe next sort of five to 10
years as society is going to change so much with AI coming

(17:48):
into our work and stuff. Because I think it will be a lot
about personal brand and like personal, what's the word for
it, like origin stores. Yes, exactly.
I think that's going to be what makes you different, what makes
you stand out. Yeah, because no one else can do
it, mate. It's your competitive advantage
and it's your compass. Because no one else has it.
And as AI does a road culture, alot of culture, I believe origin

(18:12):
stories is the only thing that AI can create and technology
won't explain. We have reduced all innovation
and storytelling to computation,which only allows us to see one
way of doing things. But in fact, there's many ways
to doing things and you can learn through origin stories,
people. It's a great sense of Intel in
my opinion, for better, for worse.
I've had death row when mates and high school shooters on my

(18:34):
podcast. I've had people with malicious
upbringings who have maybe course corrected and
understanding what not to do from an origin story is equally
as good as understanding what todo as well.
I think your observation is right man.
I want to sort of ask you about this as well, because there's
always a we a lot of this podcast where people from the
creative industry is on. I think you're quite unique

(18:56):
because you, as you say, work infight.
You don't worked in finance as aday job, but you're also
creative because you do a podcast, you're a content
creator, you do stand up. So like what could the creative
industries learn from business? Because I actually think we
under there's a lot of business people in the creative
industries, but I think a lot ofday-to-day creative people,
including myself, I've had to learn this more recently.
We don't embrace in entrepreneurialism.
We don't embrace business in thesame way.

(19:17):
And I think what maybe gives youan advantage in this space as
you have come from a finance business area where you have
both, maybe I could maybe describe you as like a creative
entrepreneur or something like. I'm blushing, man.
That's, that's, that's super nice.
I guess, like I have fledgling opinions on this.
Sometimes I think you should leave the creative just to be

(19:38):
creative and allow them just to like create art and do the work,
ship the work, whether it takes them 12 weeks or one week, just
be just be a creative by nature.Like a lot of like Rick Rubin's
work kind of follows that kind of message.
The idea, I think, my friend Rory Sutherland said when he.
Was statement in itself my friend Rory Server.

(20:02):
I guess so. He loves when he sees him, his
employees staring at the window because like that they're like
creatively marinating. So there's a part of me that's
like a purist about creativity and like creativity shouldn't
and couldn't be defined. And we shouldn't be putting
entrepreneurial tendencies and especially finance.

(20:25):
We shouldn't be layering that over the top of such a
expressive outlet like, but you see that in business, right?
Finance always questions the spend of marketing, but
marketing doesn't ever question finances work, to be honest.
So there's a part of me that's apurist around that.
And art is art, creativity is creativity.
But all that being said, if I were to try and fuse the 2, I

(20:52):
don't, I don't know too much about the creative industry like
you work in like TV and screen and all that stuff.
But the only kind of close call I can think of is comedy.
I think there's a sub sector of comedians who think focusing on
business and entrepreneurship and there are is like a bit
cringy and not cool. And they try and be a bit more

(21:13):
nonchalant and it's part of their persona.
Like I see a lot of comedians post their like shows and they
don't put a lot of effort into promoting it.
And it's like just a selfie thenwalking down the street and
they're like, come see me next Wednesday without any specific
details. And then there's the kind of
entrepreneurial minded entrepreneurs, not
entrepreneurs, sorry, comedians who are like putting a lot of
work into promotion and maybe didn't paid ads and doing really

(21:36):
kind of savvy and strategic campaigns.
And especially in comedy, there's something called the
circuit. And it's basically like a kind
of, especially in Scotland, likea kind of by nature circle of
gigs that are work in progress, open spot, open make comic does.

(21:56):
And maybe a professional community would say is that you
use the circuit to get off of it.
But I think a lot of communitiesmay just stay on it and they
don't realize that there is a life beyond that.
And yes, that takes work. It takes maybe taking a few big,
big swings, big, big risks like maybe getting an agent, for
example, or trying to do your own show at the Fringe or
something like that. So I think maybe risk appetite

(22:23):
could be something that they could learn back end processes
in terms of like boring things like diary management, finance
management, all that stuff. But also realizing that their.
Progression and. Comedy is actually a relational
game and it's like how they create really great

(22:43):
relationships with bigger comedians.
We can then vote for them. Some of my favorite comedians in
Glasgow I see giving a hand up to many kind of aspiring
comedians and they've built careers off of that, which is
great. But also like things like agents
and production houses and maybe trying to get in front of the
camera more, all that kind of stuff.
Producing content as well. Building a personal brand in the

(23:06):
space, being known for something.
It's something I've helped you with over the last few months is
like having being an authority figure in the creative arts
career space. I guess I'm rambling here,
Jamie, about saying like, I guess my toil is leave the
creative. There's a department that's like
leave the creative to be creative, but there's other part
of me is like, oh, but there's you can get more money by doing

(23:28):
a spreadsheet once a month. I don't really have the answer
to that, man. What works for me is like
systematizing my goals. I'm systematizing my creativity.
And the only reason I do that isbecause I enjoy doing it so much
that I need to find a way that it either at least allows me to

(23:49):
stay in the game of doing it financially or grows so I can do
it more full time. And I can only do that by
applying a business main set. I don't think just being
creative or just being lucky will ever get me to doing this
full time. So I think otherwise you're just
playing. The lottery, then.
I can be consistent, but I can be consistently shit.
So like looking for the 1%, looking for a continuous

(24:10):
improvement, streamlining processes, a split test, ads and
stuff like that as well. Like when I get a thumbnail,
like my current thumbnail that'sgoing out within a couple of
weeks, like we have like 5 different copies and we're doing
like AB test to see what one sticks.
Well, and then we're going to get information from that data
from that. And then we'll be like, right,
OK, this still really work and continue doing it.
Things like that, man. And I've learned that from other
big podcast houses. Like I'm very lucky to be like

(24:33):
spending time with the diary of the CEO and some of their team.
And they like they pass all thiskind of stuff down to me, to
their team. So I'm, I'm still learning, man.
I'm I'm still on the trenches, but yeah, there are some of the
things that I've been doing on the podcast.
It's. So new and so I had something on
the podcast this week and we spoke about this as well,
because a lot of great people, they just want to be left alone
to be creative and they are quite I get a lot of resistance

(24:53):
in my industry working for people who don't get the
business side because I'm havingto teach myself that.
But I think it depends what you want as well.
If you want to like just be creative and you're comfortable
maybe being skint for your life like and that's totally fine.
I respect that, but or hire. Someone in Yeah, that's what was
about to. Say or you share, you know,
Skillshare or think I've said the box.
Like, for example, like I've spoke to you many times about
some of my like limitations and what I know my strengths and

(25:15):
weaknesses are. And then we discussed like,
well, could you maybe outsource that or, you know, go and get
someone to help you and stuff even like hiring you as a coach
in the 1st place, like was partly because I don't have the
breadth, the marketing skills. So I think you can, it's just
using your agencies and I think as well and and how good does.
The rebrand, by the way, it looks amazing, right?
Now thank you very much for the help on that, but no, I agree.
I was thinking this the other day and it was a good

(25:39):
conversation I had with her comedian throughout Edinburgh
called Dan Borman, who's travelled.
He quit his job in New Zealand and travelled to Edinburgh,
packed his bags and said, I'm going to try and make comedy
work. And we were talking about he's
got a bigger follow me, he does bigger gigs than me.
But we're just talking about that moment where you tell a
really great joke on stage and there's a bit of a, an applause

(25:59):
break or like you try and say your next joke, but people are
like still laughing. Like that's such a great
feeling, One of the best feelings I've ever had in the
world. And we're bonding over this
mutual respect for this feeling.And I said something to him,
like, I just pity that not everyone gets the chance to feel
that. And he pulled me up about it.
He said some people don't want to feel that.
Some people just want to consumecomedy.

(26:20):
They don't want it's the worst nightmare to ever be on stage
and even have that moment. That barista over there is not
thinking, oh, I pity anyone that's not brewing this exact
roast with this exact art. Like, we're not envious of him
doing that, but he's putting on a performance.
And if you really think about it, everyone has day-to-day
performances that are innate to them and it's their thing.

(26:44):
So for example, in in this context, podcasting is your
thing, the, the interview process, the research is your
thing, the finance, the businessthat isn't, but that could be
someone else's thing. But they love.
And with the origin story, I've got a team of amazing people at
the moment. It's one of the things I've been
conscious of working on a freelance basis.
And one of the guys like, all hecares about is like operations.
So he's like managing systems and doing all that stuff for me

(27:06):
because I don't really care for it really.
So I've outsourced that. And he might like get a thrill
from doing that because he's like, oh, look at this new setup
I've done for the team. Whereas I can think of anything
worse. Whereas like being here on
camera. He, I remember he was in the
other day when I was doing an episode, he was like, David, I
don't know how you do it. I don't know how you can sit in
front of a camera and talk and trust yourself to say the right

(27:27):
things. But right now this is the like,
I'm in flow. I'm enjoying this.
So perhaps it is like allowing the creatives to be creative and
then outsourcing an agency modelaround you to to support we're
financially viable. Like my guys that they not
paying them wages that they're helping me out because they
believe in the mission. And I guess that's a part of the

(27:48):
power of origin stories. Is persuasion a story as a deal?
One of my good friends, I need to stop saying that, but one of
my friends will star is just wrote a book called a story as a
deal, whereby, for example, one of the things that he brought to
life was in the 80s, Adidas had like a 3% market share.
They were about to go bust and then Run DMC wrote a song, I

(28:10):
forget what it's called, but something to do with Adidas.
And then they like garnered the whole hip hop community because
it tied into the identity, tied into the origin stories of DMC
and the people that associate with the hip hop community and
like even building a team, like having an origin story, having
knowing what you stand for. Even religion is a story because

(28:32):
it gives people goal posts and parameters and a way to act.
But like having your own religion, your own philosophy,
having your own thing that you stand for is so important and
you attract the tribe around youwho want to support that.
And for example, on my podcast rebranding from development by
David, which is typically the David Show because my name is so
self referential in it to originstory.

(28:53):
And the philosophy that your origin story is your unique
competitive advantage allowed these lads to relate to that and
want to be part of it. And they help me out from next
to nothing because they believe in this mission.
So I think an origin story or storytelling allows you to build
both self worth and self assurance, but also attract
those around you who believe in the same.

(29:14):
I really like that. No, it's really, it's all really
interesting and just trying to think, yeah, I suppose it's
whatever works for you as well. But I think if you do think in
that way, it can definitely help.
I want to talk a bit a bit aboutthe podcast of of the old.
Well, the old podcast because it's not obviously about I want
to talk to you about what what'scoming.
But I always want to quickly touch on the last four years
because we basically started podcasting around the same time.
I think I was like a month or four years from, which is

(29:35):
interesting, like sort of four years on the journeys mad for
you and stuff as well. And maybe we're maybe our.
Periods will end up sinking, perhaps.
I'll have to keep in touch with that.
Send me. Pictures.
What what is interest or tries to take opposed to?
It was interesting as I saw yesterday was actually a year to

(29:57):
the day since the Jimmy car interview and I don't want to
attach. I know it must be annoying for
you because sometimes I'm sure people just talk about that and
you're like, I've done all theseother things as well.
But that was quite a big moment.Paul, who's producing this?
Will be like, Nah, David talks about himself all the time.
I mean, why wouldn't you? But that that was like a year
ago yesterday, which was a huge moment and your show and stuff.
And it was like a big thing. So do you do you kind of tell us

(30:18):
about how that came about? Because you'd guessed these Evo,
didn't you? That's exact.
That's how you got him on the show.
Oh. Man, I'm such a fan of Jimmy
Carr. Very.
Sentimental moment in time for me.
It's not because he was like Jimmy Carr and a celebrity.
It was because of his like effect on me.
I remember sitting. During the.

(30:39):
Pandemic just after losing my mum with my sister watching a
out of 10 cats highlights passing ourselves at Jimmy
watching Comedy Central roast battle just howling at him.
And then he started appearing onpodcast and I realized he was
such a deep thinker and I read his book before and laughter and
it was such a an amazing self help book because it was

(31:00):
delivered again through his origin story through his tone of
voice. It sweetened the pill because it
was hand sharing it with me. So when I looked up to and he
became one of these Mount Rushmore dream guests for me,
and I have, I have it written down like top three Dream guest
Jimmy Carver was up there and I just took a swing.

(31:21):
I thought, how am I going to make this happen?
I could find his agent. I could try and see how many
degrees of separation I was fromhim, try and get someone to vote
for me that would vouch to me, for someone else, to someone
else. And I thought, what's the most
dumbest way I could get in contact with him?
Probably by guessing his e-mail address.
And I did. I just sent one e-mail that
evening. And I didn't just send an e-mail

(31:43):
like, hey, Jimmy, come on my podcast.
It was deliberate. Like, like, like the whole
e-mail was so deliberately crafted to get get his
attention, to relate and then toshowcase the ROI for him.
And it was around the idea of origin stories, how much I
related to his this because he was a maverick.
He was a Cambridge alumni. Marketing is I get Shell earning

(32:05):
in a great wage and realized that it wasn't for him and
renounced it and became a full time stand up comedian who
gigged 300 nights a year until he broke free.
He gave himself a year to do it and he did it in like 301.
So I relayed a lot to him and demonstrated that back to him.
I showcased some really new ones, guests that I had on the
show that I knew he liked. Rory Sutherland was one of them.

(32:26):
So the title of the e-mail was Rory Sutherland spoke about you.
Let's speak about him and just all of these like weird
thoughtful components in this e-mail carnered his attention.
He said, Yep, I'm not sure when I'm next in Scotland.
When are you next in London? I replied, Jimmy, I'll be in
London whenever you need me in London.
He said, right, let's do it. He passed him on to his agent,
picked a few dates when he was back in London because little

(32:49):
the many people know he's actually on the road maybe 300
to 3:20 Nice a year. So in the same week that we
recorded in London, he was in like Paris, South Africa,
Bucharest, like all like all around.
And he was back in London for like 24 hours, whereby did me
the Diary of the CEO and trigonometry on the same day and

(33:10):
then flew back out that evening to Las Vegas to start his US
tour. I think he was having dinner
with Adele that night. Mental.
But yeah, that's how it came around.
I just guessed his e-mail. And you got to take your sister.
Which is pretty special as well,yeah.
Full circle. She played she played T boy that
day. I remember actually a funny
story to kind of humanize this. I want to, I don't want to, I

(33:32):
want to talk about this in a waythat makes it very humble and
real and not like I'm friends with Jimmy Carr or like I
interviewed Jimmy Carr. Like he did me a favour.
He obviously saw a bit of himself and me and wanted to
help because I had like what, a few 1000 followers at the time.
I had like 2000 followers on Instagram and he was doing Diary
of the CEO that has millions thesame day.
He didn't need to do it like he did it strategically to help me

(33:57):
and he rocked up. I mean I was struggling to find
a studio to do it in London. Like I don't have a don't have a
Dyer. The seal budget.
London is so expensive. There's a place called dream
factory, I think it was called. It was charged me like 2 grand
to do a studio episode with him and I found a comedy club called
21 Soho show 21 Soho. It was the first place I ever
watched that up comedy fill circle.

(34:19):
That's right. So fill circle.
And he rocked up there by himself.
No security, no nothing. I think he got the chip and like
he rocked up and during the day,the comedy club itself is used
as a Co working space either forthe employees or for other
people. And he went over to the the kind
of coffee bar area and said, this place is for sale, isn't

(34:42):
it? You'll be out of a job next
week. And the barista didn't even like
know this place was in liquidation.
And he basically announced the guy like, you know, I might buy
this can have a tour in central London.
So he took a tour of the Co working space and as we entered
it, every Co worker. Looked round.
And we're like, Oh my God. And like opened their mouth and

(35:03):
I went, sorry, Jimmy, this happens everywhere I go.
And he just burst out laughing. And it was like such a sincere
moment. See, you're just joking.
Probably also likes. Just the acting normal and that
as well. Yeah, he was great.
And then my sister, my sister got my coffee and we had sat
down at the table doing some small chat before we're
recording. He was like making fun of the
studio actually, because it was so small and there was a weird,

(35:25):
weird door that was locked up. And he was like, how's that
where you keep the GIMP and stuff like that?
And my sister was walking down the stair and this is such a big
moment for her. Like, she's never seen me to a
podcast before. She's in there with someone that
she admires. And she was shaking a little bit
coffee and I could see it spilling onto the saucer.
And by the time I got to gym, there was like half a coffee
left. But it was great.

(35:48):
And he slagged her on the podcast as well, called her out
and it was great. Man.
Like, notice how I heard. Of you as well.
I was like, I remember I think Ilistened to that episode he did
the same day in the diary CEO. I think I listened to that.
I was I remember being in my grand's kitchen test.
Well, listen to what Jimmy Carter typed in Jimmy Carter
came up and I was like he was from Glasgow because there's not
that many Scottish podcasts really in the space that I'm in.

(36:08):
There is obviously a few, but I thought, oh that.
So I just thought it was interesting just to hear another
Scottish person doing something and that's how I also discovered
your show and then now we're here like a year later.
So it's mad how all these thingshaven't, you know, cause and
effect and stuff. Let's talk about origin story
now though, the new chapter, because it's about to relaunch.
So what can you sort of tell us about it?
Because when this goes out, likeyour new sort of series will
have launched. The new podcast will have

(36:29):
launched. Yeah, man.
Thanks for asking about that. I was starting to get the Eck
when I was showcasing the previous version development by
David because it was so self referential and it was just a
name I came up with four years ago when I started it and my
dad's spare bedroom with. A refurbished.

(36:50):
Microphone and a webcam, you know, and I just stuck with it
and I did write the mission statement of the podcast back
then, which was using origin stories as a self development
tool. And I realized that that is
always stayed true to the podcast and I wanted to embrace
it more. I wanted to make it my identity.

(37:10):
I want to be the person that shares the most fascinating
origin stories. But what I realized last year,
Jamie, was when you get when youare like a emergent small
podcast and you get like a JimmyCarr on or your favorite authors
or all these people that elevatethe status of your show, you get
kind of captured and trapped by it.
Yeah. And my entire self worth for a

(37:32):
very long time, Jamie, was how big the guess was that was
coming on the show or how I could, like, signal that to the
world because that was a reflection of how worthy I was.
And I had to take some time off to really realize like, who am I
well in my origin story and embrace that and renounce this
persona that I was putting online.
So it started with re rebrandingmyself, Jamie, and understanding

(38:00):
how I want to present. And I realized that part of this
was my podcast and what that stood for.
And now I want it to be a central home for the world's
greatest origin stories. And as part of that, I don't
want it to be the Jimmy cars, the celebrities.
I want it to be everyday people that are just remarkable in
their own way and painting a wayto garner a platform, a worthy

(38:25):
platform for their voice. Because like I said, an origin
story is a gift regardless of who you are.
And I want to create a place whereby I can share them and
also empower the message to people listening that their
origin story is spectacular, regardless of what it is, where
they came from, who they are, it's their reason for being.

(38:48):
It's their life's work to show up as themself because no one
else can do it. So origin story is going to be a
home for that message. And I want to do more podcasts
and really dynamic settings thatare pertinent to those people's
origin stories as well. I have the privilege actually.
I don't want to share this one actually because it's big on
live. I've got a privilege to do a

(39:08):
really sentimental podcast with someone that's been so pertinent
in my life, a place that's very pertinent to them.
Kill setting in the middle of nowhere.
But I want to do more of those. Like almost like many
documentaries, almost like the landscape of what podcasting is
has changed visually, experientially.
So I want to fuse video and audio together to create

(39:29):
something different and refreshing.
And it doesn't have to be tied to the profile of who have on
just to sort of expand. That I want to sort of ask you
as well, what is the future? What do you think the sort of
future of podcasting is? Because it is a sort of
changing, these are things that are changing quite a lot in the
space at the moment. I mean, we are constantly having
to adapt as podcasters ourself as well.
I think the visual audio relationship is changing.

(39:53):
Podcast used to be just an audioonly experience that used to
come across as quite broadcasting quite like a radio
show. I think video podcasts pioneered
by. Perhaps people like Rogan and
Dyer, the CEO and call our daddy, have started to blur the
lines of what a podcast is as a visual experience, as an audio

(40:14):
experience, as a visual audio experience.
And then there's like challengershows like Check In Shop Date,
which are very short and locational with a kind of
standardized theme, and they're disrupting the podcast space.
You see Spotify and I got to chat with the head of podcast
strategy for Spotify recently. This is his wisdom, not mine.

(40:35):
Even the Spotify platform are now is now catering to the Tick
Tock vacation and video vacationof podcasts.
So you'll now see like trailers on there, video trailers.
And Spotify was legacy an audio platform, but now it's a visual
audio platform. So I think we're going to be
seeing a lot of more visual audio experiences.

(40:55):
I think podcasts are going to become shorter because of
attention span, but I think there's also going to be a
thirst and a hunger for the real.
I think hopefully longer form looser, cut roar forms of media
will proliferate through. I hope so, because I'll be.
Fucked, by the way. No, like I think like I miss

(41:18):
things like day in the life logs, like Casey Neistat style
content if you're familiar with him, just raw, scrappy, crusty
forms of content. I think we're kind of moving
away from the hyper polished forms of content as well.
I think it's there for the taking.
I think it's really interesting.I've stopped like Elliot, one of
my best mates, very kindly. Still, it does a lot of edit

(41:38):
support on this podcast and editso the audio side of it and I've
stopped. I've told them to stop taking
items and pauses and stuff because I actually prefer it
when I listen to a podcast because it's much more natural.
I think it sounds really weirdlypolished when it's just like
it's like as fuck. I don't know.
It was an interesting one. I am also want to sort of ask
about Glasgow. You're sort of part of the scene

(41:59):
here. But I suppose we both are.
We're recording in an amazing studio in Glasgow and yeah, show
it to Poland in the green room. But like, what do you see?
Do you see there's an opportunity here to sort of do
more in Scotland because there is more podcasts coming out
everywhere. But I do, you know, it's
interesting to see other people in the same place you are.
Yeah. I just.
Want to shout out Paul in the green room?
To be honest, it's such a good opportunity to praise the work

(42:19):
he does. Like without the studio, the
podcasting scene probably wouldn't exist.
Paul has like knowing Paul so well and not to do a full
testimony of the Paul in the podcast, but like he has
probably been like one of the this central thrust of
podcasting and in Glasgow. I've known Paul for many years
and I've seen the evolution of the green room in the studio and

(42:39):
the people that he's worked with.
He worked around the clock. He's so accommodating and that
all allows us to do what we're doing.
And without him, there is no us,to be honest.
So chill out, Paul. And I think just having anti
competitive mindset towards podcasting, realizing that we're
all on the same ship and we all have a a row to sail, we'll have

(43:05):
a kind of equal duty to like help grow the scene in Glasgow,
raise more awareness through that our work, pass the baton
down to others. I think having that kind of
collective community mindset will allow the scene to grow.
I think there's also a necessityfor legacy media to point an aim
at people that are in this spaceand help fund them, help support

(43:28):
them, instead of realizing that it's a trend and trying to grab
out of their hands. I think that's important as
well. I think we have a role to
playing support in the communityand I think government agencies,
Tree of Scotland. I think also perhaps maybe
what's it called, Scottish International Development,
whatever they're called, Scottish International, I can't

(43:49):
remember. Anyway, the body that's
responsible for exporting Scottish Nish should be playing
a very close piece of attention to podcasting because they can
explore our our voice and our thoughts and our
entrepreneurship and our creative creativity for sure
through funding shows like yours, mate.
So I see that being an importantplace.

(44:10):
But again, without all of that being said, Paul is probably
again, the backbone of this community in Glasgow.
So we need more polls. Paul doesn't want more posts
because he's got the largest market share of what?
Yeah, sure, Paul. It's good, I think.
What I do like about podcasting is like one of those mediums
where everyone does help each other.

(44:30):
You go on each other's shows, you plug each other's shows.
Like it's never feels competitive.
Like I'm always happy when I hear another podcast in my,
especially in your ear. You're like, yes, like, yeah,
it's giving me. An insight into the swingers
scene. That's what that must be like.
Very supportive. Very.
Well, to get involved, I always talked about development as well
because, like, I the sort of this whole like, Chris
Williamson thing about the lonely chap there seems to

(44:51):
resonate with a lot of people inour position.
Like, how do you navigate that? Because you do hold yourself to
a very high standard. You work very hard.
Like, you know, you'd sacrifice a lot of things that maybe
people would be out doing, like,you know, getting peshed every
weekend or like, you know, spendthe time with friends.
I know you still do have a social life and all that.
I'm not saying you're like, you're like a little recluse in
your room all the time, but you do sacrifice a lot.
I think I'm not. Yeah.

(45:11):
No, I mean, I'm an insult in my mum's basement for sure.
Yeah, man, alcohol and nights out and those things, their
relationships, relationships tied to identity.
And when there is a scene in Glasgow that's up and coming and

(45:36):
you and it's not the popular thing to do a podcast, the
easier thing is to do what everyone else does, which could
be going out drinking. And I'm not lambasting that
I've, I've had so many fun nights out.
I'm going to Bratislav in a few weeks for a holiday where I'll
be drinking with my mates. So like I still do normal stuff,
everyday stuff. But I realized that like where I

(45:56):
come from, you know, rural West Coast of Scotland, small town
people don't really get it. But then I'm kind of trying to
mingle with this new creative scene, entrepreneurial scene
that has been part of their source code.
And they don't really kind of get me because I'm kind of
breaking into the industry and I'm straddling these two new
grips. And it feels lonely because I

(46:17):
don't really fit into this new crowd.
But I've kind of escaped my old and it feels like swimming in a
body of water trying to tread. And I think the best thing to do
is just pick a direction and swim.
But it's exactly where I meant to be.
This, I think this body of water, that lonely chapter or
that social that that kind of self development mode of

(46:39):
loneliness is exactly where you're meant to be because it's
a a mode of self discovery. Because you're not really.
Fitting into a new tribe, you'veescaped your old.
As you. Experiment of experiment with
your identity and who you want to be.
There's not like a audience around you to kind of negate or
criticize you. You can experiment and become

(47:01):
this new version of yourself because no one really cares that
you're doing it. And then once you get to
experiment laws by maybe trying out podcasts or trying comedy or
trying a new job, you can then embed that into your new
identity and find your new tribethat supports that or just find
a tribe that is also a bit lost and meandering.
Like that's how we know each other because we're trying to

(47:23):
build this thing that feels likea podcast, but could be a
business, could be a career. And we're feeling a bit lost.
But we connect over that that. And I guess hopefully two of us
can read from the same math and get get somewhere.
Pretty, pretty cool with it, man.
And yeah, man, it's a lonely place, man.
But I think embracing that and finding people on the same

(47:44):
journey as you is really important.
Yeah. And trying to.
Sort of learn to enjoy the journey of it as well because I
feel like it's something you look back on in 10 years and be
like, that was actually the funniest bit because, I mean,
maybe we won't figure out in 10 years, Who knows?
We would be like, still figured out.
Well, that's, you know, that's all part of the excitement.
Yeah, man. And being able to take stock of
that, I think we as a society, especially this Taipei masculine

(48:05):
entrepreneurial culture, comparesidewards and upwards.
We look on social media to see people with people we do not
know, the things we don't have in place where we've never been,
and we can lambast their own journeys by falling foul to the
expectation of having that too. But in fact, if you were to look
back in your own journey, if youwere to look at your first

(48:26):
episode, Jamie, and see how far you've come, you're doing this
in a studio now. You've had some amazing guests,
some of your heroes in the industry, some of that, your
favorite bands like Dictator andstuff.
You're able to actually take stock of the distance travelled
on your own journey. And I think it's remarkable what
you've you've gone into. And I and I look back in my
journey like I was looking at myvideo journal yesterday from me

(48:47):
and Jimmy and just seeing how I've changed from a year like a
year ago as well. And I think, yeah, I think
that's a really important thing is to take stock of your own
journey. Only person you should be
comparing yourself against is previous year, as wanky as that
sounds. But it's very true though, it's
a good way to. Reframe it for sure.
I try to remember myself that yeah.
How are we doing for time, Paul 5 minutes ago, I suppose just to

(49:08):
sort of wrap up, I mean, just sowe could talk very much much
longer. Just have to get back on the
show again at some point. But I wanted to sort of ask as
well because I usually are closing questions, what advice
we have for other people. But what would you say to
someone right now if they're maybe feeling a bit lost like
they, they have, they know that they're destined for someone
maybe greater than what they're at.
Like what would you say to them?Because that's a lot of people
listening that are very ambitious.

(49:29):
But it's really hard when you'rein that moment to see sometimes
like another life for yourself and you've been there before.
Great question, really good question.
I think entering a period of solitude where you're negated
from the input of other minds isimportant to understand what you

(49:50):
want to want. And that means eradicating what
you think others want you to want and realizing that life is
short. We only get one shot of this, as
cliche as it sounds, and realizing life is a movie or an
autobiography and you hold the pen and you only get one chance,

(50:11):
one draft at writing this. And I think asking yourself the
question, what if status, money,failure and power were no
option? What would you do?
There's a good way to answer that.
And for me, doing this is exactly that.
Podcasting, interviewing people,getting to connect.
I think it's my life's work. It's the guy of what I feel the
world needs, what I enjoy doing and what I could maybe get paid

(50:32):
for. So I think doing that exercise
is really important. And if that feels true to you,
being dogmatic and holding it dear to you, don't let anyone
else infiltrate that notion because it's your, it's your
record guy, it's your compass, it's your.

(50:54):
I think you should, you should follow your nose like a sniffer
dog when that thing arises. And if you don't have that in
your life, you just have a senseof ambition and you don't know
where to deploy it. Experiment.
I think. Live life like a stand up
comedian or a skateboarder, because what they're willing to
do is take visible punches on the nose, or they're feeling

(51:19):
comfortable to die on stage, or they're comfortable trying a
trick and skinning their knees. But the the feedback loop is so
fast and instant for them. They get up and try again.
They refine, they reiterate, they point a name in a different
direction. They tweak the experiment, they
find the marginal gains and thenthey land the trick or they tell

(51:40):
the joke and everyone laughs. I think living life like a stand
up comedian is probably the bestlife I give anyone.
Because if you don't, you'll become a puppeteer to your eagle
almost. And I think if you're in that
lonely chapter with high ambitions as just point a name,
fail fast and never beg. And maybe find a tribe that

(52:01):
supports your ambitions too. I think accountability and I
think actually my biggest piece of advice to a young person is
find someone to be accountable to.
That's. Really good.
Find. The thing that you want to do
and find someone in that domain to be accountable.
To I think, I mean that's. A really good place to to leave
things on. David, honestly, it's such a

(52:22):
pleasure to have you on the showAnd, and honestly, I don't ever
leave senior hanging out with you out feeling like quite
inspired and quite like because we can make this fucking shit
happen. So honestly, big, big credit to
what you're doing. Where can people find you?
Where can people find the new show?
First of all, Jamie. Thanks for having me on.
This is a needed podcast. I hope I really, I'm not just
saying this because I'm on the the podcast.
I'm a huge fan of what it is andwhat it stands for.

(52:43):
I wish it great success. Every industry needs to see
what's going on in your industry.
There needs to be more governmental backing.
There needs to be more institutional backing, and fair
play to you for carrying the weight of that on your
shoulders. Having a show, everyone listen
to the next episode. Listen to the last episode.
There's far better people on this show than me.

(53:05):
Where can people find me? I can leave my address if they
want to come over later. And I'm a bit lonely, as we were
talking about earlier. Now you can find me on Instagram
at David McIntosh Junior. That's David McIntosh Junior.
Yeah. And I'm.
Subscribed to the show as well. There's links to all David's
stuff below. So thank you very much man.
Pleasure having you on. Cool.
Thank you, Paul.

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EP. 166 – Storytelling, Social Mobility & Building a Hit Podcast with David McIntosh Jr.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}EP. 166 – Storytelling, Social Mobility & Building a Hit Podcast with David McIntosh Jr.