April 22, 2025 • 21 mins
Episode 167 is a little different: we’re sharing an excerpt from my chat on the Cinora YouTube channel with filmmaker – and returning pal – Ashley Dick. We dive into the shock cancellation of BBC Scotland’s flagship soap River City and what the decision signals for drama production across Scotland and the wider UK.
Since the recording, the fight to save the show has exploded. Famous faces – Richard E. Grant, Ewan McGregor, Miriam Margolyes and Nicola Sturgeon among them – have lent their voices, and a motion to keep River City on air will soon be heard in the Scottish Parliament.
In this chat we talk about:
How River City was axed and why it matters – timelines, budget pressures and the creative fallout.
The concern for the wider TV industry – what the cancellation tells us about an already‑strained sector.
Why we need to future‑proof the soap format (or find a new kind of long‑running drama).
Why local voices are important – the cultural impact of losing a home‑grown show.
What potential solutions we can pursue as an industry – ideas, funding routes and collective action.
Hit play, share your thoughts, and help keep Scotland’s storytelling future alive. Check out the full video over on the Cinora Channel.
Full video from Cinora 🔽🎦:
The cancellation of Soaps and what it means for TV
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Hello. I am Jamie McKinley and you are
listening to another episode. Just get a real job.
Thank you very much for tuning in.
Hope you're all having a good week.
Thank you as well to everyone. That listened to last week's
episode that we recorded with the wonderful David McIntosh
Junior, and it was lovely to record that in a proper podcast
studio as well. And we put out our first ever
video podcast on Spotify. So that's something if you're
(00:26):
listening on Spotify, that we'regoing to try and do more of in
the coming year and we're going to try and get in the studio a
bit more as well for some more, you know, professional looking
podcast because it's always niceto do that.
And the green room that. Produced that podcast for us as
well are brilliant to work with,so shout out to them as well.
This week's episode is a little bit different, and I mentioned
a. Couple of weeks.
Ago basically that. I'd done an interview with a.
(00:48):
Former guest on the podcast called Ashley Dick, who runs the
brilliant Sonora channel, which is all about filmmaking and the
creative industries, and it's a brilliant YouTube channel which
I'd recommend people go and check out.
She's of course beyond this podcast twice before, but I
mentioned that I'd went on her channel to talk about the
cancellation of River City, which of course, for any
listeners that don't know, that is my day job.
I'll work on that show as a script editor, and it was
(01:10):
announced in March by the BBC that that show will not be.
Continuing after 2020. 6 and it was cancelled and just for
anyone, there's no River City has been running for 24 years
it's a soap, it's a continuing drama.
Mentioned many times on the podcast as well that the TV
industry is in a really hard moment just now.
Lots of people are out of work, we're in a complete crisis.
And in my view, the cancellationof this show is another hammer
(01:32):
blow to an already struggling industry.
And I think it is going to have a negative effect on the
ecosystem in Scotland and you know, training opportunities,
opportunities for people workingin TV.
It's just going to be even less than they are at the moment.
And I think it's a mistake cancel the show.
But I went on Ash's channel and we spoke about it.
She interviewed me about my views on it.
This was the week that we got the news as well.
(01:53):
So it was a very emotional week.I was feeling quite raw.
But basically we're going to putout that interview as a podcast
episode, so if you want to see the full video, you can go and
check it out on Ash's Sonora channel.
But I thought I'd put it out as a wee episode for any of our
listeners that didn't hear it atthe time.
It's also quite timely because this week the Scottish
Parliament are putting forward amotion to discuss the
cancellation of River City. That's going to be on Thursday.
(02:14):
So I'm looking forward to seeingwhat comes out with that.
I'm hoping it can potentially shine a light on some of the
wider issues. Facing the TV.
Industry in Scotland and the wider UK as well, but it's
brilliant to see Parliament at least acknowledging this and
discussing it. And hopefully it's something we
can potentially even get a UK level soon as well, because we
do need to talk about the crisisin this industry and we do need
to talk about solutions. And I'm going to continue to use
this podcast to do that. I think it's important we
(02:36):
reflect the reality of the creative industries, whether
that be the TV part of it or anyother part of it that we have
guests related to. So we've got loads of more
brilliant episodes coming up this year that we'll keep doing
on topics like this. But this is, yeah, this is the
extract from my interview of Sonora.
Hope people enjoy it. Please don't.
Subscribe to. Ash's channel as well and I
appreciate her letting us release this on our own channel
as well. We're going to take a wee break
(02:57):
next week, so we're going to have a week off from the pod
cast next week because it's beena busy couple of weeks.
And yeah, we've got some things in the pipework and me and
Elliot are working on some cool stuff.
So we'll be back at the start ofMay with more brilliant
episodes. I'm really excited about some of
the guests we got lined up and some of the episodes we'd
already recorded. So I hope everyone has a
brilliant end to the month. And yeah, thank you for your
(03:18):
continued support listening to this podcast.
I hope you enjoy this little extract from my interview with
Ash A. Couple of weeks ago.
(03:43):
Thanks for letting me come on and chat.
I appreciate it. It's obviously, it's literally
just been over 48 hours since wefound out the news about River
City, so it's a bit of a weird weekend.
Yeah, my head's a bit scrambled.I didn't play like a new podcast
episode or anything out of this week as well, so.
It's nice to come here and. Talk a little bit about it.
But yeah, it's a bit of a strange weekend for me
(04:05):
personally. I'm not surprised about the news
because I've obviously done a lot of work with your good self
on some of the issues facing theTV industry.
And I've expected maybe, you know, that River City wouldn't
have had, you know, you know, I didn't think it'd be on the TV
forever sort of thing. And I did wonder if the sort of
effects of everything that's been going on would get it soon.
Earlier, but I was. Surprised that, you know, sort
(04:25):
of timing and the timing of the announcement and maybe how
quickly that has happened. So yeah, it's been a sad week
for me and many of my colleaguesat Dunbarton.
And yeah, it's still feeling pretty raw a little bit, I'm not
going to lie. Yeah, I can imagine, although
they've said that it will be autumn 2026, that it actually
goes off air. Obviously people aren't working
(04:49):
on the show like every single day of the year and it comes in
blocks and things like that. So it's going to start having an
effect sooner rather than later on the actual team.
It's tricky because obviously we'd, we lost all we said to be
lost doctors and now Riverside will be the sort of third of
those things from the BBC in thelast what, two to three years.
So the effect, I mean, I'd arguethe industry's already in
(05:12):
collapse and crisis. And I know you've covered this a
lot, so I don't want to, you know, sort of repeat that too
much. But I think this really just is,
from my perspective, a bit of a hammer blow blow to Scotland and
to the wider UK industry, which was already, you know,
contracted and already struggling.
And, you know, it's great that the BBC have commissioned 3 new
dramas, but there's no guaranteethat many of the people on River
(05:33):
City will get to work on those. And you know, they only
guarantee work for up to a up toa year and they're not long
running and they're not the sameas, you know, a continuing drama
and stuff in terms of the training opportunities and the
sort of, you know, River City atthe end of the day is good for
the ecosystem of our industry tohave soaks, so.
When we talked about your role in River City before last year,
(05:56):
one of the things that I hadn't really taken into consideration
was the scale of a soap and whatthat teaches you about a really
big machine that operates almostcontinuously.
But certainly on such a big scale that there are so many
different departments and peopleinvolved, and there's so much
opportunity for you to learn things that you absolutely don't
(06:17):
learn on smaller scale productions.
Or if you're only making a sex episode block.
Having that continuation and kind of going through a really
long process like that is very unique and the opportunity to do
it is diminishing. Yeah, completely.
It is it is a very different wayof doing things.
And again, I'm not like going topretend that it was necessarily
(06:39):
possible to continue doing soapsin the same way we've been doing
them for the last, you know, 20 years.
Like we ever say it was commissioned in 2003.
I think like it's been punching above its weights for weight for
years. Like it's actually an incredible
the work that people do there interms of the budget and time
constraints that underlay. They're working on a shoestring
budget and they're producing miracles and up against lots of
(06:59):
factors. So I mean, it's a really, it's a
good place to learn how to problem solve and, and be quick
on your feet and stuff like that.
But like, you know, I do think it has punched above its weight
and yeah, there's not really something like it.
So I well, obviously like the format and the way that we make
soaps in the UK is being hit across the board.
Hollyoaks are making less episodes now, even EastEnders
(07:21):
and Coronation Street and thingsI've had to adapt to the times.
And you know, I think Corey and Emmerdale next year, they go
down to lesser episodes as well.So, you know, across the sector
and that continuing drama and lower budget and TV landscapes
been affected. But I do think it's frustrating
that we haven't been thinking more innovatively ahead of what
can we replace soap with? Is that a, a version of longer
(07:43):
form drama that comes back that's returnable on a lower
budget that you can train peopleon, you can keep people on for
stability to then go and, you know, eventually step up into
higher dramas and stuff? So, I mean, I've got lots of
thoughts on it. But yeah, it's a, it's a
frustrating time and it's, yeah,it's quite, it's a scary time as
well. It's a scary time for lots of
freelancers. No, I absolutely agree.
(08:04):
One of my first thoughts where, well, you're not replacing like
for like. And fair enough, the era of the
soap has been in decline for a really long time now.
And we know that the viewership isn't there to justify it
continuing forever. But I feel like a more staged
process and a longer term plan to phase out of the mechanism we
(08:25):
have for soap operas and into a different type of television
program would have been a betterapproach.
And maybe it's a little bit experimental, but I just feel
like that now was an opportunityto go, OK, so we don't have the
viewership and those younger audiences, millennials and Gens
Ed and Gen. Alpha, they're not really
watching linear programming. They're not really into that
(08:46):
style. How do you kind of harness what
young people are interested in and what they do return to long
term and create something for linear TV so that you can ensure
longevity? Because I think that basically
coming in with three, what appear to be high end dramas
just isn't the same environment at all.
It's not the same entertainment for the audience and it's not
(09:07):
the same job for the people thathave been left behind with the
closure of River City. And I feel like from a viewer
perspective as well, there is such a gap right now in terms of
your lower budget television andthen your mid budget television
as well. A lot of people I know their
favorite TV show is something really cheap and really simple.
(09:29):
You know, people quote still game to this day and they they
really hold on to stuff that just was really magical for
them. Sometimes simple things really
cut through and and touch peopleand I feel like River City was
one of those things. I know people who watched it
day-to-day and they are really, really going to miss it.
Yeah, and I think it's also justsomething like Scotland having
(09:50):
its own thing like that is quiteimportant as well.
Like it was the Scottish soap. And again, I'm not saying you
can actually need to replace it with another soap, but like it's
it's those, as you say, lower budget shows that are maybe.
More returnable. More, you know, able to run them
for longer and you make them with the view that this might
tank after one season. But we're, we're going to commit
to free and we're going to take those risks.
And I do sympathize with the commissioners and I do
(10:12):
sympathize with BBC's gotten to an extent because the BBC's been
really, you know, affected in the last 10 years.
Like, I know there's not a lot of money there, but I do
actually think that it's, it's like that thing Philip Ralph
said when we did our live panel a few weeks ago, Like is the
austerity mindset to things? I think if you keep cutting and
cutting and cutting, it actuallyin the end has a reverse effect.
(10:32):
If you're innovative and you invest, we can actually go on to
make great shows. And I suppose it's tricky as
well because we're relying on, you know, investment from
America, the American market or Co pros and stuff as well.
And it's really hard to get a drama off the ground even at mid
level now. And I do sympathise with the BBC
with that. But I do think it does feel like
we need to try to get together and as an industry and being way
(10:54):
more into of and acknowledge that there's a crisis as well.
I need to acknowledge there's a crisis.
I'm not, I'm not hearing enough people higher up saying that.
And I get, I get they want to protect their jobs and stuff,
but you know, it, it doesn't need to just be down to us at
the lower level, you know, speaking up and risking our own,
you know, futures and stuff. It's we need to speak up.
So it's important. The issue of people like us
(11:15):
speaking about it is that you risk being seen as problematic,
you risk being seen as someone who speaks out and disagrees
with the system and it's really upsetting because if you don't
confront it then nothing is evergoing to be done about it.
I spoke with someone at Beck to and the unions really have
rallied together and acted fast on this and that's quite
(11:36):
encouraging to see. Everybody who's kind of got in
touch from River City have talked not only about their
personal circumstances, but the potential for others and the
fact that it was such a big training ground.
So it had links with colleges and universities.
It also had links with institutions that would allow
people to go to set and learn new skills.
(11:57):
It gave great opportunities to people to direct for the first
time on TV, which is such a hardgig to to land, especially in
Scotland. What kept coming back up was
this kind of altruism. But I'm hoping that at least the
people that have been involved are going to carry that on to
whatever they do go next some. Of the people at River City have
actually gone above and beyond in terms of training and have
(12:18):
actually on their own back, you know, with very little money and
resources well went out of theirway to bring bringing in
training people. So as a massive credit to the
people that are sort of I've been behind that River City, I
think it's quite remarkable. The other thing I want to flag
on top of the back of The thing is actually my heart really
particularly breaks obviously for everyone involved, but I
worry for the writers. Obviously I'm a script that I
(12:39):
work close for them. It's really rare to get an
episode of TV commissioned as a writer.
Say these mini series come, theyhave a showrunner.
If we're really lucky, we might get one or two guest writers on
those shows and you might get writers in the writers room.
But that is not the same as writing episodes of TV and
getting paid to get your name onon the telly and get a credit.
And we'd now lost Hallway, we'd lost doctors.
(13:00):
We've got less episodes of Hollyoaks.
We've got less episodes of Coronation Street in Emmerdale
for next year as well. There's just going to be less
and less opportunities for writers.
And you effectively will just beplaying the lottery if you
wanted to become a writer. And, and that then effects
editorial and it then effects script that it is as well.
And at the end of the day, we'regoing to get a situation where
we're going to have the same 7 or 8 writers who I'm sure will
(13:20):
be brilliant. I think you know Jack.
Fornes new show. For example, it's brilliant.
Adolescence is really good. Some of Russell T Davidson, like
new work is great and I love these writers, but we're going
to just have the same voices making all the shows in the UK
if we're not careful. We need to invest in new talent
and not even new talent. There's loads of writers that
have actually been around for years that, you know, just
(13:43):
haven't had the opportunity as well.
So I want to be careful when I say new talent because there's
lots of existing talent that just needs the chance to shine.
And I'm getting very passionate and emotional about it.
But, you know, it's been an emotional week.
So yeah, I'm a little bit rawer than normal tonight, in truth.
In a show like River City, although it's a soap opera, soap
operas have always been really reflective of working class
people and problems that you face day-to-day.
(14:04):
I know they can get a wee bit out there sometimes.
I've heard there was a plane crash in Emmerdale and I was
like, OK, that's not an everydayoccurrence, but a lot of it is
very much about the emotions of living in a community and the
kind of domestic issues that people really face.
And I feel like those issues in London and what you see in in
EastEnders are completely different to what people are
(14:26):
going to be experiencing in Glasgow or in rural parts of
Scotland. We're again, stripping away
things that people can relate to.
And when I was going through theresearch for this, I was
reminded that at the end of episodes, you always get like a
number to call if you've been affected by an issue in the
show. And there's always a sort of
(14:46):
like support around it for people who are watching and
going, oh, actually that's reflective of my life.
And that did happen to me once. One of my friends pointed out to
me that, like, the relationship I was in was directly paralleled
in Hollyoaks. And that was one of the moments
that I realized that like, OK, other people observe this.
(15:08):
And actually it was validation that like, it was bad and I
should be doing something about it.
And so I feel like there's stilla place for this stuff.
There is still a small audience,and there is still room for for
something like this. And that reflects our lives back
at us, from where we are from, and helps us understand the
(15:29):
world. Yeah, I agree.
And I think if you're actually willing to be innovative enough,
I'll keep saying a word, I can'tsay, but innovative enough, you
can actually make a show that does represent local real people
and you could probably sell it abroad as well.
But that shouldn't obviously be the main.
That shouldn't just be part of it.
It's also thinking how can we fund the show in other ways.
(15:49):
So quite a few people on my podcast recently suggested
things like we need to work bigger, more closely with maybe
brands, for example. Is that way around solving this
funding crisis so you can make things on a lower budget that
you don't need to rely on selling abroad or having that
international appeal? I think you can do both.
It's just about thinking about it outside the box, being a bit
more clever and maybe being moreopen to risk taking, which I
(16:11):
know is really tricky in the cost of living.
And again, I really do sympathize with the decision
makers as well. I know it's, they're not.
I don't believe that the BBC aresitting around being maliciously
evil when they cut a show at River City.
I know there's so much that's behind the decision, but it
ultimately does feel like a mistake in it.
Yeah. So it's just, it just adds more
frustration to what's already such a difficult industry.
(16:32):
And it really is like, yeah, forme personally, I don't feel
particularly optimistic about myfuture right now.
And that that's hard. That's hard.
So like you said, other soaps are scaling back or changing
their format up to fit better into the schedule, maybe make
space for some other things, butthey're still being maintained
in a way. And I just feel like with this,
(16:55):
why are we getting a hard it will stop On this date, this is
the end, why is there not room to work with it?
And like it would be nice to have a few answers to that.
Agree with you. I do sympathize that it is a
decision that it does make senseon paper.
Like why we need to tackle the issue with the soap opera not
(17:15):
being as popular as it used to be.
It just doesn't feel like this is like the most careful
solution given the the industry crisis at the moment.
I saw an article today talking about, well, the the decision
with forever City, like, you know, drain talent from Scotland
and I'd argue the talent drain started.
I think this just only accelerated further and it's sad
to see colleagues leaving the industry.
(17:36):
You know, I, I get it and I'm considering it myself at the
moment. I'm, I'm considering my future
and it's tricky and you know, I'm not going to going to say in
a first night like I'm definitely going to leave TV.
I'd like to stay and fight for my place here.
But I, I do totally understand it and I can't deny that I've
not thought about it as well. And I think that's a, that's a
real tragedy. There's lots to discuss on it.
So I'm hoping to at least continue to use my platform of
(17:58):
just get real to keep these conversations going.
And I think it is good that we're talking about it and
hopefully can start maybe thinking about other solutions
and suggestions. But yeah, just hopefully as an
industry, we can. I think we just need to
acknowledge that first there's acrisis because that's the first
step. We can't just keep burying our
heads in the sand and pretendingthat things are going to come
back to the way they used to be.Like, this isn't, this is the
new, this is the reality and this is the new normal, if we
(18:20):
want to use a word from COVID. But yeah.
You have had your finger on that, the pulse of like the
crisis and problem solving around it.
You know, obviously speaking with people in the podcast about
their position and their thoughts and ideas about it.
And very recently I've joined your podcast to talk about we
(18:40):
survived till 2025, what next? And we did try to come up with
some actions off the back of that.
Is there anything within those conversations you've had that
have given you just a bit of an idea of like personally what to
do next or like what kind of things you want to talk about
with people in order to make something happen?
One thing is we need to invest in mid level talent in the in
(19:02):
the UK and Scotland more. We need to invest in people who
are in the middle of their career.
And I don't think we should do this for a talent schemes or
anything like that. I think we just need to look at
what can we give people in the middle of their career that is
sustainable. So then when we bring new talent
in, we're not bringing them in and training them up and then
spitting them out two years later and they have nowhere to
go. Because I just think it's, it is
a moral and it's, it's actually just a waste of time because
(19:23):
again, you're just getting people's hopes up and putting
money and time into them. And then there's nowhere for
them to go And you or you get stuck and you're like, you leave
and you go and consider another job.
So I think we really need to gettogether and discuss how can we
better support mid level talent and the TV industry and what can
we do around that? I think secondly, we need to
maybe look at is that a way of being innovative?
(19:45):
I'm going to use that word againwith, you know, mid to lower
budget shows. Is there a way we can take a
more long running returnable show in the in 2025 and make it
appeal to audiences on a lower budget outside of the streamer
model? And you know, Channel 5 have
just done that. I think they'd announced 5 drama
things that they want to do where they are going to make
(20:06):
lower budget dramas that are newand fresh and from new voices
and stuff. Yeah.
And I think we need to just. Try and make the arts in general
more accessible because they do feel far too behind the some
sort of like glamorized the closed off door.
And I'm happy to do it and I know you're happy to do it, but
it shouldn't be relying on people like us to keep the
ladders down behind us. We need people in positions of
(20:29):
influence and, and financial influence as well to to be there
doing that. And I think we need to look
outside of our industry more andwork with other people.
What can we do? What can we learn from the tech
industry, for example, What can we learn from the sports
industry or the branded content industry, if that's even an
industry, which I mean, what canwe learn from all these other
industries to better, you know, innovative are I'm going to keep
(20:51):
saying this word, but I think weneed more innovation and we need
to look to the future and try and adapt to this instead of
pretending that everything's fine and keep and doing things
the same way again and again Again, because we're just going
to lose more and more talent from an from our industry and
it's going to become unsustainable.
And you're just going to have people from privileged
backgrounds working and making TV, and that doesn't represent
the country.
Hello. I am Jamie McKinley and you are
listening to another episode. Just get a real job.
Thank you very much for tuning in.
Hope you're all having a good week.
Thank you as well to everyone. That listened to last week's
episode that we recorded with the wonderful David McIntosh
Junior, and it was lovely to record that in a proper podcast
studio as well. And we put out our first ever
video podcast on Spotify. So that's something if you're
(00:26):
listening on Spotify, that we'regoing to try and do more of in
the coming year and we're going to try and get in the studio a
bit more as well for some more, you know, professional looking
podcast because it's always niceto do that.
And the green room that. Produced that podcast for us as
well are brilliant to work with,so shout out to them as well.
This week's episode is a little bit different, and I mentioned
a. Couple of weeks.
Ago basically that. I'd done an interview with a.
(00:48):
Former guest on the podcast called Ashley Dick, who runs the
brilliant Sonora channel, which is all about filmmaking and the
creative industries, and it's a brilliant YouTube channel which
I'd recommend people go and check out.
She's of course beyond this podcast twice before, but I
mentioned that I'd went on her channel to talk about the
cancellation of River City, which of course, for any
listeners that don't know, that is my day job.
I'll work on that show as a script editor, and it was
(01:10):
announced in March by the BBC that that show will not be.
Continuing after 2020. 6 and it was cancelled and just for
anyone, there's no River City has been running for 24 years
it's a soap, it's a continuing drama.
Mentioned many times on the podcast as well that the TV
industry is in a really hard moment just now.
Lots of people are out of work, we're in a complete crisis.
And in my view, the cancellationof this show is another hammer
(01:32):
blow to an already struggling industry.
And I think it is going to have a negative effect on the
ecosystem in Scotland and you know, training opportunities,
opportunities for people workingin TV.
It's just going to be even less than they are at the moment.
And I think it's a mistake cancel the show.
But I went on Ash's channel and we spoke about it.
She interviewed me about my views on it.
This was the week that we got the news as well.
(01:53):
So it was a very emotional week.I was feeling quite raw.
But basically we're going to putout that interview as a podcast
episode, so if you want to see the full video, you can go and
check it out on Ash's Sonora channel.
But I thought I'd put it out as a wee episode for any of our
listeners that didn't hear it atthe time.
It's also quite timely because this week the Scottish
Parliament are putting forward amotion to discuss the
cancellation of River City. That's going to be on Thursday.
(02:14):
So I'm looking forward to seeingwhat comes out with that.
I'm hoping it can potentially shine a light on some of the
wider issues. Facing the TV.
Industry in Scotland and the wider UK as well, but it's
brilliant to see Parliament at least acknowledging this and
discussing it. And hopefully it's something we
can potentially even get a UK level soon as well, because we
do need to talk about the crisisin this industry and we do need
to talk about solutions. And I'm going to continue to use
this podcast to do that. I think it's important we
(02:36):
reflect the reality of the creative industries, whether
that be the TV part of it or anyother part of it that we have
guests related to. So we've got loads of more
brilliant episodes coming up this year that we'll keep doing
on topics like this. But this is, yeah, this is the
extract from my interview of Sonora.
Hope people enjoy it. Please don't.
Subscribe to. Ash's channel as well and I
appreciate her letting us release this on our own channel
as well. We're going to take a wee break
(02:57):
next week, so we're going to have a week off from the pod
cast next week because it's beena busy couple of weeks.
And yeah, we've got some things in the pipework and me and
Elliot are working on some cool stuff.
So we'll be back at the start ofMay with more brilliant
episodes. I'm really excited about some of
the guests we got lined up and some of the episodes we'd
already recorded. So I hope everyone has a
brilliant end to the month. And yeah, thank you for your
(03:18):
continued support listening to this podcast.
I hope you enjoy this little extract from my interview with
Ash A. Couple of weeks ago.
(03:43):
Thanks for letting me come on and chat.
I appreciate it. It's obviously, it's literally
just been over 48 hours since wefound out the news about River
City, so it's a bit of a weird weekend.
Yeah, my head's a bit scrambled.I didn't play like a new podcast
episode or anything out of this week as well, so.
It's nice to come here and. Talk a little bit about it.
But yeah, it's a bit of a strange weekend for me
(04:05):
personally. I'm not surprised about the news
because I've obviously done a lot of work with your good self
on some of the issues facing theTV industry.
And I've expected maybe, you know, that River City wouldn't
have had, you know, you know, I didn't think it'd be on the TV
forever sort of thing. And I did wonder if the sort of
effects of everything that's been going on would get it soon.
Earlier, but I was. Surprised that, you know, sort
(04:25):
of timing and the timing of the announcement and maybe how
quickly that has happened. So yeah, it's been a sad week
for me and many of my colleaguesat Dunbarton.
And yeah, it's still feeling pretty raw a little bit, I'm not
going to lie. Yeah, I can imagine, although
they've said that it will be autumn 2026, that it actually
goes off air. Obviously people aren't working
(04:49):
on the show like every single day of the year and it comes in
blocks and things like that. So it's going to start having an
effect sooner rather than later on the actual team.
It's tricky because obviously we'd, we lost all we said to be
lost doctors and now Riverside will be the sort of third of
those things from the BBC in thelast what, two to three years.
So the effect, I mean, I'd arguethe industry's already in
(05:12):
collapse and crisis. And I know you've covered this a
lot, so I don't want to, you know, sort of repeat that too
much. But I think this really just is,
from my perspective, a bit of a hammer blow blow to Scotland and
to the wider UK industry, which was already, you know,
contracted and already struggling.
And, you know, it's great that the BBC have commissioned 3 new
dramas, but there's no guaranteethat many of the people on River
(05:33):
City will get to work on those. And you know, they only
guarantee work for up to a up toa year and they're not long
running and they're not the sameas, you know, a continuing drama
and stuff in terms of the training opportunities and the
sort of, you know, River City atthe end of the day is good for
the ecosystem of our industry tohave soaks, so.
When we talked about your role in River City before last year,
(05:56):
one of the things that I hadn't really taken into consideration
was the scale of a soap and whatthat teaches you about a really
big machine that operates almostcontinuously.
But certainly on such a big scale that there are so many
different departments and peopleinvolved, and there's so much
opportunity for you to learn things that you absolutely don't
(06:17):
learn on smaller scale productions.
Or if you're only making a sex episode block.
Having that continuation and kind of going through a really
long process like that is very unique and the opportunity to do
it is diminishing. Yeah, completely.
It is it is a very different wayof doing things.
And again, I'm not like going topretend that it was necessarily
(06:39):
possible to continue doing soapsin the same way we've been doing
them for the last, you know, 20 years.
Like we ever say it was commissioned in 2003.
I think like it's been punching above its weights for weight for
years. Like it's actually an incredible
the work that people do there interms of the budget and time
constraints that underlay. They're working on a shoestring
budget and they're producing miracles and up against lots of
(06:59):
factors. So I mean, it's a really, it's a
good place to learn how to problem solve and, and be quick
on your feet and stuff like that.
But like, you know, I do think it has punched above its weight
and yeah, there's not really something like it.
So I well, obviously like the format and the way that we make
soaps in the UK is being hit across the board.
Hollyoaks are making less episodes now, even EastEnders
(07:21):
and Coronation Street and thingsI've had to adapt to the times.
And you know, I think Corey and Emmerdale next year, they go
down to lesser episodes as well.So, you know, across the sector
and that continuing drama and lower budget and TV landscapes
been affected. But I do think it's frustrating
that we haven't been thinking more innovatively ahead of what
can we replace soap with? Is that a, a version of longer
(07:43):
form drama that comes back that's returnable on a lower
budget that you can train peopleon, you can keep people on for
stability to then go and, you know, eventually step up into
higher dramas and stuff? So, I mean, I've got lots of
thoughts on it. But yeah, it's a, it's a
frustrating time and it's, yeah,it's quite, it's a scary time as
well. It's a scary time for lots of
freelancers. No, I absolutely agree.
(08:04):
One of my first thoughts where, well, you're not replacing like
for like. And fair enough, the era of the
soap has been in decline for a really long time now.
And we know that the viewership isn't there to justify it
continuing forever. But I feel like a more staged
process and a longer term plan to phase out of the mechanism we
(08:25):
have for soap operas and into a different type of television
program would have been a betterapproach.
And maybe it's a little bit experimental, but I just feel
like that now was an opportunityto go, OK, so we don't have the
viewership and those younger audiences, millennials and Gens
Ed and Gen. Alpha, they're not really
watching linear programming. They're not really into that
(08:46):
style. How do you kind of harness what
young people are interested in and what they do return to long
term and create something for linear TV so that you can ensure
longevity? Because I think that basically
coming in with three, what appear to be high end dramas
just isn't the same environment at all.
It's not the same entertainment for the audience and it's not
(09:07):
the same job for the people thathave been left behind with the
closure of River City. And I feel like from a viewer
perspective as well, there is such a gap right now in terms of
your lower budget television andthen your mid budget television
as well. A lot of people I know their
favorite TV show is something really cheap and really simple.
(09:29):
You know, people quote still game to this day and they they
really hold on to stuff that just was really magical for
them. Sometimes simple things really
cut through and and touch peopleand I feel like River City was
one of those things. I know people who watched it
day-to-day and they are really, really going to miss it.
Yeah, and I think it's also justsomething like Scotland having
(09:50):
its own thing like that is quiteimportant as well.
Like it was the Scottish soap. And again, I'm not saying you
can actually need to replace it with another soap, but like it's
it's those, as you say, lower budget shows that are maybe.
More returnable. More, you know, able to run them
for longer and you make them with the view that this might
tank after one season. But we're, we're going to commit
to free and we're going to take those risks.
And I do sympathize with the commissioners and I do
(10:12):
sympathize with BBC's gotten to an extent because the BBC's been
really, you know, affected in the last 10 years.
Like, I know there's not a lot of money there, but I do
actually think that it's, it's like that thing Philip Ralph
said when we did our live panel a few weeks ago, Like is the
austerity mindset to things? I think if you keep cutting and
cutting and cutting, it actuallyin the end has a reverse effect.
(10:32):
If you're innovative and you invest, we can actually go on to
make great shows. And I suppose it's tricky as
well because we're relying on, you know, investment from
America, the American market or Co pros and stuff as well.
And it's really hard to get a drama off the ground even at mid
level now. And I do sympathise with the BBC
with that. But I do think it does feel like
we need to try to get together and as an industry and being way
(10:54):
more into of and acknowledge that there's a crisis as well.
I need to acknowledge there's a crisis.
I'm not, I'm not hearing enough people higher up saying that.
And I get, I get they want to protect their jobs and stuff,
but you know, it, it doesn't need to just be down to us at
the lower level, you know, speaking up and risking our own,
you know, futures and stuff. It's we need to speak up.
So it's important. The issue of people like us
(11:15):
speaking about it is that you risk being seen as problematic,
you risk being seen as someone who speaks out and disagrees
with the system and it's really upsetting because if you don't
confront it then nothing is evergoing to be done about it.
I spoke with someone at Beck to and the unions really have
rallied together and acted fast on this and that's quite
(11:36):
encouraging to see. Everybody who's kind of got in
touch from River City have talked not only about their
personal circumstances, but the potential for others and the
fact that it was such a big training ground.
So it had links with colleges and universities.
It also had links with institutions that would allow
people to go to set and learn new skills.
(11:57):
It gave great opportunities to people to direct for the first
time on TV, which is such a hardgig to to land, especially in
Scotland. What kept coming back up was
this kind of altruism. But I'm hoping that at least the
people that have been involved are going to carry that on to
whatever they do go next some. Of the people at River City have
actually gone above and beyond in terms of training and have
(12:18):
actually on their own back, you know, with very little money and
resources well went out of theirway to bring bringing in
training people. So as a massive credit to the
people that are sort of I've been behind that River City, I
think it's quite remarkable. The other thing I want to flag
on top of the back of The thing is actually my heart really
particularly breaks obviously for everyone involved, but I
worry for the writers. Obviously I'm a script that I
(12:39):
work close for them. It's really rare to get an
episode of TV commissioned as a writer.
Say these mini series come, theyhave a showrunner.
If we're really lucky, we might get one or two guest writers on
those shows and you might get writers in the writers room.
But that is not the same as writing episodes of TV and
getting paid to get your name onon the telly and get a credit.
And we'd now lost Hallway, we'd lost doctors.
(13:00):
We've got less episodes of Hollyoaks.
We've got less episodes of Coronation Street in Emmerdale
for next year as well. There's just going to be less
and less opportunities for writers.
And you effectively will just beplaying the lottery if you
wanted to become a writer. And, and that then effects
editorial and it then effects script that it is as well.
And at the end of the day, we'regoing to get a situation where
we're going to have the same 7 or 8 writers who I'm sure will
(13:20):
be brilliant. I think you know Jack.
Fornes new show. For example, it's brilliant.
Adolescence is really good. Some of Russell T Davidson, like
new work is great and I love these writers, but we're going
to just have the same voices making all the shows in the UK
if we're not careful. We need to invest in new talent
and not even new talent. There's loads of writers that
have actually been around for years that, you know, just
(13:43):
haven't had the opportunity as well.
So I want to be careful when I say new talent because there's
lots of existing talent that just needs the chance to shine.
And I'm getting very passionate and emotional about it.
But, you know, it's been an emotional week.
So yeah, I'm a little bit rawer than normal tonight, in truth.
In a show like River City, although it's a soap opera, soap
operas have always been really reflective of working class
people and problems that you face day-to-day.
(14:04):
I know they can get a wee bit out there sometimes.
I've heard there was a plane crash in Emmerdale and I was
like, OK, that's not an everydayoccurrence, but a lot of it is
very much about the emotions of living in a community and the
kind of domestic issues that people really face.
And I feel like those issues in London and what you see in in
EastEnders are completely different to what people are
(14:26):
going to be experiencing in Glasgow or in rural parts of
Scotland. We're again, stripping away
things that people can relate to.
And when I was going through theresearch for this, I was
reminded that at the end of episodes, you always get like a
number to call if you've been affected by an issue in the
show. And there's always a sort of
(14:46):
like support around it for people who are watching and
going, oh, actually that's reflective of my life.
And that did happen to me once. One of my friends pointed out to
me that, like, the relationship I was in was directly paralleled
in Hollyoaks. And that was one of the moments
that I realized that like, OK, other people observe this.
(15:08):
And actually it was validation that like, it was bad and I
should be doing something about it.
And so I feel like there's stilla place for this stuff.
There is still a small audience,and there is still room for for
something like this. And that reflects our lives back
at us, from where we are from, and helps us understand the
(15:29):
world. Yeah, I agree.
And I think if you're actually willing to be innovative enough,
I'll keep saying a word, I can'tsay, but innovative enough, you
can actually make a show that does represent local real people
and you could probably sell it abroad as well.
But that shouldn't obviously be the main.
That shouldn't just be part of it.
It's also thinking how can we fund the show in other ways.
(15:49):
So quite a few people on my podcast recently suggested
things like we need to work bigger, more closely with maybe
brands, for example. Is that way around solving this
funding crisis so you can make things on a lower budget that
you don't need to rely on selling abroad or having that
international appeal? I think you can do both.
It's just about thinking about it outside the box, being a bit
more clever and maybe being moreopen to risk taking, which I
(16:11):
know is really tricky in the cost of living.
And again, I really do sympathize with the decision
makers as well. I know it's, they're not.
I don't believe that the BBC aresitting around being maliciously
evil when they cut a show at River City.
I know there's so much that's behind the decision, but it
ultimately does feel like a mistake in it.
Yeah. So it's just, it just adds more
frustration to what's already such a difficult industry.
(16:32):
And it really is like, yeah, forme personally, I don't feel
particularly optimistic about myfuture right now.
And that that's hard. That's hard.
So like you said, other soaps are scaling back or changing
their format up to fit better into the schedule, maybe make
space for some other things, butthey're still being maintained
in a way. And I just feel like with this,
(16:55):
why are we getting a hard it will stop On this date, this is
the end, why is there not room to work with it?
And like it would be nice to have a few answers to that.
Agree with you. I do sympathize that it is a
decision that it does make senseon paper.
Like why we need to tackle the issue with the soap opera not
(17:15):
being as popular as it used to be.
It just doesn't feel like this is like the most careful
solution given the the industry crisis at the moment.
I saw an article today talking about, well, the the decision
with forever City, like, you know, drain talent from Scotland
and I'd argue the talent drain started.
I think this just only accelerated further and it's sad
to see colleagues leaving the industry.
(17:36):
You know, I, I get it and I'm considering it myself at the
moment. I'm, I'm considering my future
and it's tricky and you know, I'm not going to going to say in
a first night like I'm definitely going to leave TV.
I'd like to stay and fight for my place here.
But I, I do totally understand it and I can't deny that I've
not thought about it as well. And I think that's a, that's a
real tragedy. There's lots to discuss on it.
So I'm hoping to at least continue to use my platform of
(17:58):
just get real to keep these conversations going.
And I think it is good that we're talking about it and
hopefully can start maybe thinking about other solutions
and suggestions. But yeah, just hopefully as an
industry, we can. I think we just need to
acknowledge that first there's acrisis because that's the first
step. We can't just keep burying our
heads in the sand and pretendingthat things are going to come
back to the way they used to be.Like, this isn't, this is the
new, this is the reality and this is the new normal, if we
(18:20):
want to use a word from COVID. But yeah.
You have had your finger on that, the pulse of like the
crisis and problem solving around it.
You know, obviously speaking with people in the podcast about
their position and their thoughts and ideas about it.
And very recently I've joined your podcast to talk about we
(18:40):
survived till 2025, what next? And we did try to come up with
some actions off the back of that.
Is there anything within those conversations you've had that
have given you just a bit of an idea of like personally what to
do next or like what kind of things you want to talk about
with people in order to make something happen?
One thing is we need to invest in mid level talent in the in
(19:02):
the UK and Scotland more. We need to invest in people who
are in the middle of their career.
And I don't think we should do this for a talent schemes or
anything like that. I think we just need to look at
what can we give people in the middle of their career that is
sustainable. So then when we bring new talent
in, we're not bringing them in and training them up and then
spitting them out two years later and they have nowhere to
go. Because I just think it's, it is
a moral and it's, it's actually just a waste of time because
(19:23):
again, you're just getting people's hopes up and putting
money and time into them. And then there's nowhere for
them to go And you or you get stuck and you're like, you leave
and you go and consider another job.
So I think we really need to gettogether and discuss how can we
better support mid level talent and the TV industry and what can
we do around that? I think secondly, we need to
maybe look at is that a way of being innovative?
(19:45):
I'm going to use that word againwith, you know, mid to lower
budget shows. Is there a way we can take a
more long running returnable show in the in 2025 and make it
appeal to audiences on a lower budget outside of the streamer
model? And you know, Channel 5 have
just done that. I think they'd announced 5 drama
things that they want to do where they are going to make
(20:06):
lower budget dramas that are newand fresh and from new voices
and stuff. Yeah.
And I think we need to just. Try and make the arts in general
more accessible because they do feel far too behind the some
sort of like glamorized the closed off door.
And I'm happy to do it and I know you're happy to do it, but
it shouldn't be relying on people like us to keep the
ladders down behind us. We need people in positions of
(20:29):
influence and, and financial influence as well to to be there
doing that. And I think we need to look
outside of our industry more andwork with other people.
What can we do? What can we learn from the tech
industry, for example, What can we learn from the sports
industry or the branded content industry, if that's even an
industry, which I mean, what canwe learn from all these other
industries to better, you know, innovative are I'm going to keep
(20:51):
saying this word, but I think weneed more innovation and we need
to look to the future and try and adapt to this instead of
pretending that everything's fine and keep and doing things
the same way again and again Again, because we're just going
to lose more and more talent from an from our industry and
it's going to become unsustainable.
And you're just going to have people from privileged
backgrounds working and making TV, and that doesn't represent
the country.
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