EP. 172 - ‘Creating the Community You Wish Existed’ with Cat MacLeod - Just Get A Real Job

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Just Get Real Job
with your host, me, Jamie McKinley.
I'm recording this week's intro live with the guest on the call,
which is very unnerving. But it's a pleasure to welcome
back on the show Kat McLeod, whowe first had on two years ago.
Kat is a writer, a director, a producer and also the founder of

(00:25):
And Friends, which has been doing some amazing work across
Scotland and it's a pleasure to welcome you back on the show.
Kat, how are you? I'm really good, lovely to hear
that live. We've been time efficient this
week, Kat. We've been time efficient.
I know we're very busy people. Yes, and I think a good place to
start is we just had a nice chatoff air, but we're both very

(00:49):
tired. We're both feeling very tired,
quite burnt. The word I keep using is burst,
but I just. I feel like a burst couch.
I feel like I need, I need just some time to be like
reupholstered and just to sit for a while.
Such a weird metaphor. I know, I know.
I've been watching a lot of interior design masters, what

(01:10):
can I say? Yes, no, it does it.
You know, I think being I've been I'm very honest on the show
often and I think being a personespecially, you tend to have to
work a job to pay your bills, even if you work a, you know, a
creative job. I mean, I do this podcast on top
of ATV job, but it's very tiringand like, you know, I don't want
to sound like I'm not grateful for all the amazing things I've

(01:31):
got in my life and I, you know, I'm choosing to do this show,
but it's a lot to juggle and I think I just like something to
be honest about it. And I think it's very common at
the moment. I know a lot of people working
in the creative industries that are just tired because, you
know, we have a cost of living crisis.
And I think just feel pretty hard at the moment in some ways.
So, you know, I don't want to shy mind that.
I don't want to explain why I might be yawning in today's

(01:51):
episode. No, I totally feel the same.
And also, I think it's really interesting that we use the word
or when we when we talk about how tired we are, it's always
with the caveat that, you know, I'm really grateful.
And I think some it's, it's almost like we're gaslighting in
ourselves into thinking that, you know, tiredness is somehow

(02:12):
attitude when the two things canwork, the two things can exist
at the same time. And adding the guilt of that on
top of feeling tired is not really helpful to us all as
people. But I also think even outside of
the creative industries, like I most people, a lot of my
friends, I think being an adult is just generally quite tiring,

(02:33):
probably by being on our phones too much and seeing screens.
And then add into that someone like me who's holds himself to a
ridiculous standard that they'reprobably never going to achieve.
You just put a lot of pressure on yourself and it can be, it
can be hard. Yeah.
Do you know why? I have a job and I have a
career. And what we're saying about

(02:54):
working to earn a living like itis, it's a job and I like it and
I take it very seriously. But the one of the most
beautiful things about it is I can put my phone in my locker
and not be on my phone for hoursat a time and either just read
or take notes or write down ideas or just be present
wherever I am in that job has been, has made such a difference

(03:17):
because it means that I, I'm notavailable.
I'm literally I'm not available to answer texts, I'm not
available to answer emails. And I think that has really
changed how I approach things ina in a really good way.
But yeah, you're right. When I do have my phone on me,
I'm like, oh God, it makes me feel really self-conscious and
really down about working in an industry adjacent job.

(03:43):
But of course, when you're scrolling, you see opportunities
for things. You're like, oh, I need to apply
for that. Or you see things that you're
not qualified for and you're like, what?
Like it? It makes me more full of rage.
Yeah. Than ever.
And then the comparison as well,you're just constantly comparing
yourself, which is silly. There'll probably be someone

(04:05):
that's doing that to you going, oh, I wish I had what they had.
And you never know what's going on with someone either.
And I was saying as well, I was at a networking event yesterday.
And usually I feel really energized after networking
events, but it just made me feela bit shattered.
I was like, you know what, you're like, I've got all this
work to do. Yeah, it's, it's it feels like a
a bit of a strange time. But there's also lots to be

(04:26):
positive about. We've got you back on the show
because we're doing an event together, which we'll talk about
in more detail, but we're doing a live and then together with
just get a real job and and friends in Glasgow.
There's links to it below if people want to go find it more.
We're going to talk about it in lots of detail today, but that's
actually two weeks tomorrow, which is kind of scary as well,
isn't it? It is.
I think it's one of those thingsthat we were like, oh, I

(04:48):
remember we sat, we sat down in a coffee shop when we had all
these great ideas. And I came away from that
meeting being like, oh, this is great.
This is the kind of, this is what I love to do.
I love getting together with people and just making plans and
knowing exactly why we're doing those things because they feel
really valuable and they feel really exciting and they feel
it's like networking, but it's, it's more solidarity than it is

(05:11):
job seeking, if you know what I mean.
But then, you know, life kind oftakes over and you're like, Oh
my God, I could do with another month.
But then I think the, the beautyof a lot of things that I've
done over the past year, especially with unfriends, is
that I decided to do it and I did it.
And yeah, it freaked me out. And yeah, I ran out of time, but
it still happened and it was still great in its own special

(05:36):
chaotic way. Although I am trying to be a bit
more mindful and separate chaos and creativity.
They, they don't necessarily have to live together.
And I'm also like, you know, maybe the calls coming from
inside the house, maybe I am just a chaotic person and that's
how I'm always going to make stuff happen.
So yeah, big, big existential questions going on, as well as

(05:59):
being very tired he's. Going to be quite an existential
podcast today and hopefully people will still want to come
to our event after listening to about Hopes.
Yeah. And before we get into all that
though, let's recap. So we had you on the podcast two
years ago, roughly. Yeah, mental.
On I think it was July 2023, butI think we would have recorded
it probably around May 2023, so roughly exactly 2 years ago.

(06:23):
So she was mental. We did because I remember I was
still at home on MO and I hadn'tmoved to Glasgow yet and I moved
to Glasgow early May 2023. Yeah, you were about to move to
Glasgow just after that. Yeah, I remember and I had just
recently I'd only lived in Glasgow for like 6 months then

(06:43):
and I was still in the flatman. Now I'm about to little be the
last podcast I ever recorded in this flat actually, which is
kind of a little milestone thereas well.
I've recorded so many. I probably recorded about maybe
50-60 episodes and than this flat.
So it's kind of yeah, the last one here getting overlay
nostalgic for a flat there. But yeah, I die.
I die. Maybe that's our pattern.

(07:03):
Maybe the next time we do a podcast together, one of us will
be moving again. Yeah, maybe.
Yeah. There you go.
There you go. That's just I'm not moving from
Mall to Glasgow to Beaver. I'm moving from Free Streets.
Away I go to Glasgow. There you go.
But what I was going to say as well was it might be nice as
well if you want to quickly sortof give us a bit of a recap to
what you've been up to since, because you've done like the
Sean Connery Talent Lab, you started a company called AM

(07:27):
Friends, which you can explain what that is.
So if you know, our listeners know as well.
But what have you been up to forthe last two years?
How and how you? Do you know, I love, I love
questions like that because it makes me realize that I've it
makes it makes you realize what you've achieved.
And that's actually really lovely thing to do because we
don't do it very often. So yeah, after the podcast that

(07:50):
we recorded all that time ago, Imoved to Glasgow and I didn't
really know what I was doing. I didn't really know what
concrete things were available to me after that.
And that was just after I'd worked with Vanishing Point.
That was just after my first play had been on and been on
tour. And that was such an exciting

(08:12):
time. And then I moved to Glasgow and
you know, Tumbleweed, I kind of didn't have anything happening
and going on. And you know, I was seeing my
friends a lot, but I wasn't working.
I didn't work for a really long time when I just moved to
Glasgow, which was very stressful.
And I think brought up I was probably quite miserable when I

(08:32):
first lived in Glasgow. And that's not that doesn't that
that's nothing to do with, you know, the connections I have.
I've got so many great friends in Glasgow.
But there was there was nothing creatively happening for me.
But it was in the first three months of living in Glasgow that
I wrote my play blast off Starburst that then went on to
go to play pint of pint last year.

(08:53):
So it was of and that was a really cathartic piece of
writing for me. So I kind of felt like it was,
it was a, that was the most creative burnout I've ever had,
which I don't necessarily recommend waiting for, but I had
a lot of big life experiences that I don't think I'd really
processed. And then having the time, albeit

(09:17):
quite a depressing time, just kind of really made me focus on
the things I could do. And I just started writing and
that play just kind of vomited out.
It just came out, which was probably, you know, the result
of about three years of percolating an idea.

(09:38):
And then after that it was the following year.
Yeah. That following year was the
talent lab that we started in March, April.
No, May. Oh my God, I can't remember
time. Time is going so fast.
It was basically like essentially this time last year
that I got into the Sean Connerytalent lab, which was great.
And I, and that was quite a hilarious process.

(10:03):
So I was working with the writerLana Feta, who's from Sky and
the, I think the Friday before the Monday deadline I'd seen on
her Instagram, you know, are there any directors out there
who would be up for partnering to apply to this with me?
Because I'd ruled myself out. I thought, Nah, you do.
You know what? I don't really feel qualified.
I've only made one film. I haven't written or directed

(10:27):
anything in quite a while now. By that point it had been
basically a year since I directed.
I'm not really sure. And we I read Lana's script and
I loved it. The script's called Lady MacLean
and it is about it just really the, the vibe just felt
incredibly personal, even thoughI hadn't written it.

(10:48):
So it's about a character calledMyred who's moved back to Sky
after being in the city for a really long time and is really
struggling to find her place again.
And I just loved the script. I thought it was so vibrant and
so fun. And I thought, do you know what?
I would love to direct this. Why not?
Why not apply for this? It sounds great.

(11:08):
We had no idea what it was. It was a brand new thing.
Yeah. And then we got that.
And I know we'll we'll probably go into the talent lab in the
nitty gritty of making a film. But yeah, that like last year
was probably the busiest creative year I've had in a
while in terms of, you know, working on the Talent Lab.

(11:28):
And then we shot the film last October.
And then straight into, I basically went almost straight
into play Pine a Pint, my first play.
Pine a Pint, right? Like directing a play that I'd
written, which was hugely exciting and kind of in between
all of that and amongst all of that and friends came about.

(11:52):
So I think and Friends came about basically April last year.
I do. I mean, again, we'll get we'll
probably I could I could do a whole podcast on why I started
and friends. But the impulse for me was was
having so many conversations with people who'd come out of a

(12:12):
really awful year of having no work and not getting
opportunities and opportunities been very thin on the ground.
And I really just wanted to put on a night for fun to see how it
went and invite people to come and share new work.
And it in the last year, it has just got so much bigger than I

(12:38):
could have really imagined. And the fact that we were still
doing scratch nights that peoplestill come to and that that is
the model still seems to work, Ifeel.
Yeah, I mean, I was saying you earlier, I feel like a very
reluctant producer in that I've always kind of, you know, before

(13:00):
working with Vanishing Point, I made my own work and I just used
to call producing admin and thenrealized that what I was doing
was actually a whole job that you usually get someone else to
do. So yeah, poverty and necessity
made me a producer. And yeah, that's that's kind of

(13:22):
a rambly recap. Nice.
To recap, I, I do love having people back on the podcast.
I've done it quite a few Times Now and it's, it's nice to
reflect on what people get up to.
And yeah. And then also I want to go back
and listen to that and be like, what did I say I wanted to do?
Because you know, you sometimes you just don't realize that

(13:42):
you've achieved all the things you wanted to do until you like
you know, your old Diaries or. Yeah, well, you know, weirdly,
again, it's getting quite a deep.
This podcast is going to be quite a deep existential one.
But I try to jerk. I love it most mornings, right.
And I think this morning I was writing, I wrote this, I've
talked about this in the podcastbefore.
I was writing about how like you've achieved things you said

(14:04):
would make you happy. And you know, you're still it's
not enough or you know, you know, it's been good, but you're
still finding ways to critique yourself.
Or I think someone listen more relate to that because, you
know, two or three years ago, ifI'd even said where I want the
podcast to be or where I want mycareer to be or things like
that, you'd probably be like quite happy.

(14:24):
But then you always go, well, I've not done this yet or I've
not had enough downloads or, youknow, you know, I could have
done this thing better. Or you need to try and also
appreciate where you are and enjoy.
I mean, it sounds cliche, and I say this all the time as well,
but the most important thing is actually enjoying the process of
what you do. But I think also trying to be a
bit more, have a bit of perspective and be like, well,

(14:47):
I'm quite happy with what you know, Yeah.
Because otherwise it's just for the future.
Sorry. Continue.
Sorry I keep cutting you off. I get very excited I think.
I think this was also something I did last time.
I just, I'm like, Oh my God, yousaid something really
interesting. I think what's changed so much
though is that I feel like my mission has changed.
Like my, my, I have absolutely achieved certain goals that I

(15:09):
wanted to achieve 2 years ago. But it's almost like especially
with starting end friends, whichhas been, it's been such an
evolution for me. Like I initially started it
being like, do you know what I want to create?
I want to create opportunities for myself in terms of
generating work or producing work or being a person that

(15:33):
makes stuff happen. But as soon as you kind of get
into that space, especially in the theatre industry, the space
of doing things, grass roots, DIY, very community focused,
what has ended up happening is I've got in too deep.
And by that I mean that is the space where you realise where

(15:57):
there is injustice in the industry and where people are
being neglected and where peopleare losing out on opportunities
because suddenly you're surrounded by people and you,
you know, you're spoiled for choice in terms of work to
program. And then it really, really
highlights where the failures are in the industry that all of

(16:18):
these people aren't getting opportunities.
So I think it has it's my initial impulse to create and
friends has shifted so much in that now I see it as something
that has a much bigger purpose than just a scratch night.
And I I don't, I don't mean thatto be demeaning.

(16:40):
It's not scratch Knights are notjust scratch Knights.
They are so much more than that.But it feels like there was a
whole other mission to it, like,and I think also the response to
it and me, I was actually, you know, chatting to to Fallon
Ruth, who are a big part of the unfriend's team yesterday.

(17:02):
And kind of we had, we had had awhole agenda.
And I was like, these are all that we haven't got together in
a room for a really long time. This is all the things I want to
talk about when we launch our website.
I want to use it as a platform for certain advocacy.
And we're we're kind of getting into it now, Jamie.
But there's, and again, this is,this is just to having

(17:23):
conversations with people who are in the same boat as me, who
have pretty good CVS and are still on, you know, emerging
director salaries. And by that I mean, you know,
less than 50% of your income is made through your creative
practice. So many people I know have

(17:45):
applied for opportunities that are aimed at emerging theatre
makers, but those opportunities have been given to established
companies or established playwrights.
And that's no shade to those people who get those
opportunities, but the goal posts are shifting constantly.
And what's happening is that emerging in early career
creatives are being completely neglected.

(18:07):
And I think when you are earningless than 50% of your income
from what you do, that's when you're in that position to be
like, OK, well, I either leave the industry or I keep going and
remain poor and burnout like that is the tipping point.
When you're in the emerging artist category, you are in a
tipping point. And I think a big part of what I

(18:30):
want and friends to do is to say, hey, do you know what?
Here's a definition for all the career stages and you can
categorise yourself however you like.
But what we want to do is hold opportunities accountable.
So if something is is aimed at this career tier, that's who it
goes to. You know, if we end up if if

(18:52):
unfriend ever gets to a point where we have money to give away
and we say our money is for a certain level of practitioner.
That's what like there's a levelof transparency that I think is
really missing. And I get really passionate
about it. And in in a way, I've kind of, I

(19:12):
said, I said to Ruth and Valley yesterday, I just want you to to
be OK that sometimes I may use unfriends as a way or a platform
in which to criticize the industry in which we exist
because there are things that need to be said.
And we're like, well, yeah, that's just who you are.

(19:35):
So criticize maybe isn't the right word because I do a lot of
that we share, we obviously are working together in this event
because our our, our platform share quite a lot of similar
values. And you know, I've done a lot of
similar advocacy around, you know, especially particularly
with TV where I have a lot of expertise to work in it.
But you know, talking about ongoing things that aren't
working in an industry and representing the voices of

(19:56):
people in that industry to try and bring about change or start
conversations. And it's an interesting one.
I think there's a lot of we talked about entry level
positions like I think. Is I for what I find interesting
in TV is that the similarities there were like it's kind of
different in TV where there's a lot of, there's actually too
many entry level in some ways, but there isn't really because

(20:17):
in an ideal industry we'd have those opportunities, but there's
an act. There's what's actually happened
is there's not, there's not at the moment enough of a
sustainable industry. So a lot of mid level creatives
are leaving the industry or having to step down and go for
more junior positions, which then the junior people get again
and that's what happening. With directors in theatre in

(20:37):
Scotland. Yeah.
And what you need to do is actually fix the whole thing
because what also happens is youbring new people in, they have
an amazing start to their career, but then two years later
there's nowhere for them to go and they leave the industry as
well. Or you just have people in a
position like me where they feela little bit stuck because
there's not that many opportunities for me to like
naturally find or go into that are sustainable.

(20:58):
And then you you start to consider other other careers or,
you know, if it's very limited and you end up losing people.
So it's an interesting 1. And I think, yeah, I don't think
the word criticize feels like the wrong word because I think
it's actually very constructive the way that you go about doing
that. And yeah, but we're talking
about I'm friends. And I think a good question to
sort of quick, you know, chat about in case anyone listen,

(21:20):
doesn't know what I'm friends is.
But take us back to the moment you decided to start it.
Like what is unfriends and why And why did you start it apart
from what you just said about it?
Oh, I had the idea and friends, it's got a little dash before
the and a little under score because and friends started as a
scratch night and I realized scratch is kind of an industry

(21:43):
term. Basically, scratch performance
is brand new performance that isbeing essentially workshopped in
front of an audience. So usually it's work that has
never been seen before. It's never been performed
before. Actors if if the work is text
based, will have script in hand.It's very scrappy, it's very

(22:04):
DIY. It's such an exciting way of
presenting new work because testing work in front of an
audience is such an important part of the development of new
performance. And I knew that I wanted to run
a night like this because I again, I, for that very first, I
was really inspired by the people who surround me.

(22:26):
Like I think 99% of my friends are in the industry.
And I got this idea of and friends being a scratch night
that is sustainable in a way forme because I, I knew that I
didn't potentially have the network and the capacity to

(22:49):
program every night that we did.So in, in, I guess in, in kind
of a selfish way, I was making my life a little easier.
But also there's a big, a big part of me that just thinks I'm
not, I'm not a tastemaker. I'm not like a person of
influence. I'm just a person.

(23:10):
I'm just a person who is trying to make a living as a, a
creative person. How many times can I say person?
I am a person. I'm not a robot, so I wanted I
wanted to pass on the night to and a different artist each time
so that they could look at theircircles could put like because I

(23:32):
was imagining people in my position who are feeling equally
frustrated and also equally frustrated for the people that
they love and care about who aretrying to make a living in the
industry. And I think that is the great
joy of working in the creative industries is that the people
you work with become your mates and in my case, become your best
pals, become the people you probably know better than

(23:52):
anybody. And when they when it's and they
get opportunities, you feel a great joy.
You feel like there's, you know,a sense of justice because you
love them and love what they do.So Anne friends was designed for
there to always be a prefix. So the, so the name of it is, is
kind of designed so that there will always be a guest curator

(24:16):
and friends. So and friends is both us as a
production company and the friends of the people who are
curating. And it did.
It has expanded so that like thescratch nights, we run them
three times a year. That was that is always going to
be the flagship offering. It's always the thing that we

(24:38):
do, but we also now run a space that I got last September
through a charity called Outer Spaces that essentially it's
kind of an off a guardianship ofthis, a disused office.
And they're, they're a great organization in that they are

(25:01):
filling empty corporate buildings with visual artists
with, you know, now a lot of theatre artists.
They they work between Glasgow and Edinburgh, I believe.
Also East Kilbride. You're tired, Jamie.
It's real. We're real here.

(25:24):
Yeah. Really.
So, yeah, managing that, I think.
But I mean, you know, to be perfectly transparent, I think
the, the, the management of a space, I wanted it to be, it is
free for people to use and it's,it's busy all of the time, which
is brilliant. Because again, that says to me
that there's so many people making work and they are able to

(25:48):
do so because they don't have money and can get a space for
free in order to do that work, which is really exciting.
That takes up a lot of my time. I think when I first got the
space I initially thought great,you know what, now I can really
put time and effort into curating a programme of artistic
development events. I can do workshops, I can do, I

(26:10):
can use the space for rehearsingand workshopping my own work.
And so that's kind of the, the compromise of the space has been
I don't get to do that at the moment.
But what we will be doing later in the year, sort of when we
launch our lovely website, is that we're going to launch

(26:31):
Unfriend Studio, which is our producing side.
So then we will be able to join projects as a creative partner
or a producer or you know, use our our cumulative skills to
help generate work, but also generate our own work and self
produce and get back to the creative side of things.

(26:55):
Yeah, no, it's really exciting. So, so yeah, those are the those
are the three strands of what wedo.
Also, you know, I have, I have recently posted on social media
about being burnt out and being exhausted.
And I think as well, you know, there are there are weeks when
and friends is my full time job that I don't and I don't get

(27:16):
paid. So there's the added pressure of
being needed because if I don't answer emails, people don't get
the space. And that's that is a huge
responsibility. And it's not the work that's
exhausting. It is the lack of money.

(27:41):
I'm kind of not shy about that anymore.
Like being poor is exhausting. I shouldn't say poor, that has
other connotations that don't apply.
Being skint is exhausting. Working incredibly hard for free
is exhausting, even though I've done this to myself so in many
ways and friends studio is what we do for money.

(28:07):
It's us putting our skills to good use for a fee, which I,
I'm, I'm hoping that, well, I'm,I'm hoping that people will
like, will want to work with us because of the way that we work
and what we stand for and how hard we will work for other

(28:29):
people. I think that's, you know, I'm
kind of really hoping that I don't, I hate using the word
brand because that makes it feellike every decision that's ever
been made has been made to an end.
It's been made for a purpose andit's been, you know, strategized
and done, you know, market research.
And I have, there are things that I've posted on Instagram

(28:52):
that have been things I've decided on there.
And then because it was just in my heart to say it.
But maybe, maybe that maybe it'snot a brand, maybe it's just a
character. Maybe it is the nature of what
we do that is kind of honest. And I'd hoped, I'd hoped that
was the case. Yeah, but also you have to treat
things that you run in a sort ofbusiness way.

(29:15):
I know creatives get uncomfortable, but then do you,
you, you do it is a brand in a sense, and you do have to market
it and you do have to like, you know, it's fine to want to earn
a living from someone you put a lot of time into.
I sort of, it's a strange one I've been, but I can relate
heavily because with the podcast, you know, I put a lot
of hours into this and often I'mnot making a huge amount of
money on it. We have a patron, which I'm very

(29:35):
grateful for. We have to, you know, do people
that put money into that and we're in the middle of getting
some more sponsorship and that would be amazing, but we're not
talking like I can't live on anyof that money.
This is something I do on the side I love doing.
I get a lot of it, but I probably I don't even know how
many hours go into this. So you know, that's my decision
as well. But that is also that comes at
cost as well. Set your sacrifices.

(29:58):
You know, by doing that, you're sacrificing time in other places
in your life and you know, that can become easily quite tired in
or become harder to do without. Like, you know, because if you
have money for something he calls it gives you more
opportunity to bring on more people to help you or you know,
there's loads of things there. And and I think you've been
really clever and using things like skill swaps or, you know,

(30:19):
work in collaborative other people and giving them back
things in other ways. And I think that's really
helpful that there's links to I'm friends in the show notes.
If you want to go and find out more about the space, generally,
you can go and find that out as well as our live show, which
we're going to be honest, we maybe let's talk, let's actually
talk about the live show thing now, because it can ties into
I'm friends. We're doing it in this space,

(30:39):
aren't we? So do you want to describe it?
Do you want to have a shot? And then?
So this again, as as with most, most things that unfriends does,
it came about from a conversation where we were I, I
in particular was thinking, how do we share information?

(30:59):
How do I find a way of bringing people together for the purpose
of demystifying certain things and the focus of of the film
event. We've got a panel of some
really, really brilliant guests who are making really exciting
work and the majority of the guests are making really

(31:22):
exciting work. Micro budget for no money or
very DIY or have great strategies for fundraising.
So we're aiming it's called brave new work, making indie
film today. So the, the focus of it is all
you know, how, how do we make film if we're new to it, if we

(31:43):
have no money, how do we how do we put our creative ideas into
action without waiting for funding or without waiting for
someone to say yes because it ispossible.
I've seen it happen. Our space has been used for for
films that are really low budget.
It's been so exciting to see that the space transform for
those films and to be able to offer again that space for free.

(32:05):
And so often see people using skills exchanges as part of
making work. So yeah, it's, I'm, I mean, you,
you'll be the one asking all thebeautiful questions.
I am really excited because you know, you and I, again, we do

(32:26):
have that really shared value ofsaying or approaching all of our
work with, with a great deal of honesty and empathy and just
basic, you know, humanness of meeting people where they are.
So I, I hope and what I know, I mean, looking at the, the guests

(32:46):
that we've got, I know that it'sgoing to be a really honest
conversation, but also a really uplifting 1 is I personally find
it really uplifting to look at apanel of people have very wildly
different experiences to me who are making very wildly, like
wildly different work. And just, I think there's
nothing more inspiring than justseeing someone stand up and get

(33:08):
it done. Yeah.
And be honest and upfront about the things you need to look out
for and advice to, you know, avoid getting and avoid
stretching yourself tooth and how to maintain enthusiasm for
what you're working on when there's no money in it.
And I'm not, you know, that's, that's it, basically.

(33:33):
I could get carried away. And also just like how to how
people have actually made films happen with like no money.
So if you're interested in how people have done it or how
they're in the process of doing it or also I think what's
interesting we got because it's quite a range.
Well, the panel will sort of allbe announced by the time this
episode goes out and you'll be able to find out more.
But the panel that we'd sort of got so far, I mean, which

(33:55):
there's still people to confirm and stuff, but they've all got
quite different experiences as well.
So there's people that have got more experience.
There's people that have come from a theatre background than
to filmmaking people that have worked in telly and you know,
it's really, and it's only a tenner as well.
It's not just a live podcast. There's a social.
So if you're based in Glasgow orthe Central belt or, or anywhere
in Scotland, I mean, even if you're in England or whatever,

(34:17):
you're welcome to come up for it.
It might be quite a lot, but yeah, it's like I'm.
Going to be getting some food and drinks.
So we're going to be there's going to be nibbles.
It's going to be a really nice chill.
I know we were talking about networking, but it's going to be
a really nice chill. I hope that it again, is
something that is creating solidarity, but also a really
good chance to meet people who are on your level and say, hey,

(34:39):
do you know, I would love to do XI think that networking for me,
something that I forget is that it's actually a really exciting
thing to be able to go into a room full of people who there's
so much potential for collaboration and being able to
say, hey, do you know what? I I love XYZI, would love to do
this. And then, hey, maybe three

(35:01):
people turn around and say, yeah, it's not really my vibe.
Or three people turn around and say, great, let's do it.
Definitely. So as you say, there's links and
the show notes and this event ison the 22nd of June, 2:00 PM.
So it's a Sunday chill, Sunday afternoon vibes.
And yeah, there's more details on the event, but no, I think so

(35:22):
anyway, we linked the event, butI think what's what you're doing
I'm friends is really inspiring.So, you know, Congrats on it and
you know, be exciting to see thespace for the first time because
I haven't seen it yet. So I'm looking forward to being
in there for the event. Yeah, it's, it's, I feel very,
very lucky every time I go in. I just think this was an empty
shell. And now we've been so lucky with

(35:45):
donations. We've been so lucky with people
coming in and dropping off furniture, plants, books.
Someone donated, a very, very generous person donated a fridge
so that we can, you know, peoplecan come in if they're working
long days, have a fridge to it'sjust, it's very cool.

(36:06):
It's just very, very cool. Every time I go in, I'm like,
oh, I have an office. I have, you know, a place to go
in and write or to go in and work from or take meetings.
And the other people can do the same, you know.
And the fact that it started offsomething you were doing
yourself and now you've got a team that kind of work inclusive
as well. Yeah, yeah, it's brilliant.

(36:26):
I've, I've really struggled to delegate, which again, I think
has really contributed to burnout in that I've not been
well a it's been very, very difficult to get Val and Ruth
together. So Ruth is a stage manager and
is working all over Scotland andactually reached out to me early

(36:46):
last year because she'd just moved back to, to Scotland after
being away for a long time. And it's basically our kind of
in house stage manager for all of our scratch nights.
And there are some other great stage managers that we work with
who when Ruth isn't available because she's very in demand.

(37:10):
And Val is an actor and writer and also a producer.
And Val was one of the artists that we programmed for one of
our scratch nights. And she shared a really
beautiful excerpt of a play thatshe's written.
And then just I just, I feel like Val is very much like my
emotional support. Yeah, she's, she's definitely

(37:32):
the person. She's a great sounding board.
And she's also great at telling me off when I'm being silly or,
yeah, picking me back up when I'm kind of losing steam.
So we did have a really great kind of four hour meeting to
say, hey, this is, this is a recap of everything that's
happened in the past year, sitting down and saying, cool, I

(37:54):
need help with all of these things.
Please help me going through theprocess of that, which is, you
know, the, because the space bookings are on a rolling basis,
that does actually become an enormous workload, which is, is
pretty straightforward. I took a really long time to

(38:16):
work out the system for that. And it again, it's not, it's
when you're asking for space, you're not bothering me.
I never want people to feel likethat's the case.
It is just, it's a lot to manage.
It's a big calendar squeezing people in.
There's, there's, we are so busythat, you know, so often we book

(38:38):
up a month in advance. And you kind of, I think for me,
it kind of been has something that I've had to be really on
the emails in case people e-mailand say, can I get a space
tomorrow and we have it free. I don't want to say no, but I
think, yeah, going forward, it will.
It will. We'll probably have to be a bit

(39:00):
stricter about our own time limits.
And also now it'll be one of three people who get back to
you. So there's, yeah, which which is
great. But it's also meant that I've
had to step up and really clarify what that is, which is,
again a big part of when the business evolves.
And it's not just you. I mean, you have to be able to

(39:22):
communicate what these systems are in order for other people
to, to actually help you, which is another, another lovely
thing. A lot of people do get in touch
and say, you know, I would love to help.
And I think it's not that I don't want help or don't need
help. I think a big part of that is
that then introducing other people to the workload becomes

(39:44):
an additional task. Well, I think then, you know,
going forward, and I also don't believe in asking people to
volunteer or people working without an exchange or working
for free. So bear with me is what I'd say
on that. There's there's a whole system
that I need to put in place for that kind of.
Yeah. Exchange.

(40:06):
Definitely, definitely. I was saying at the start of the
episode, but I'll obviously listen back to our last chat
last before we did this one and from two years ago.
And you've you'd at that point were just you just don't spend
your play. And you talked also about your
film you made on mole in that episode.
But what talk to us about firstly like the film you've

(40:30):
just made with Sean Connery talent lab, but touching the
star and and also how almost we sounded like babies when we were
talking about AI and tech. Yeah, dump ahead.
Now it's mad. I suppose they're two very
different questions. So we'll come back to the album.
Tell us first about the film, and then I want to talk a little
bit about yeah, because it's like kind of mad.
In two years, what's changed? Insane.

(40:53):
Insane. I mean, you could say I was
ahead of the curve there, Jamie.I warned you.
I warned. You and myself not knowing what
RGBT was called considering how now mental.
Anyway, tell us about the film first, because probably more
cheesy than AI chat in some ways.
Yeah, Do you know what it's called?

(41:14):
Lazy McLean? And as I said, written by the
brilliant writer Lana Faith. And then it's it's bilingual, so
half English, half in Gaelic really.
And it's a really lovely. I mean, lovely is probably not
the best word. It's a really like borderline

(41:39):
surreal comedy about what it's like to be from an island and
returning home after being away for so long and how there's a
kind of really internal feeling of failure in that, where maybe

(42:01):
you haven't achieved the things you thought you would achieve.
And then you're back home and you're maybe a bit nervous about
what other people will say aboutyou.
But then the other side of of the film is very much about
class and about how local peopleare being priced out of their

(42:25):
homes because Myra, the main character, she's, yeah, she's
come back to Sky and she's got ajob working as a waitress at a
big fancy ball, which is a real thing.
It's a real event in Portree called the, I think it's called
The Gathering, the Sky Gathering.
And it's, yeah, it's kind of like all the landed Gentry come

(42:47):
to sky for this big posh. Kaley and Lana was actually
inspired by a news article of a real event where a local man
went up to the gathering hall after being in the pub and tried
to get in and was refused entry,you know, into this hall that

(43:11):
sits in Portree and is there as part of the, you know, the
furniture of the of the town. And he ended up head butting the
layered sun, I believe, because there was this altercation of
who is who is and isn't allowed into this space.
So the film is is this really beautiful journey of this woman

(43:37):
falling back in love with where she's from and finding a real
sense of peace and belonging in that community, but also
standing up against that kind of, I guess, gentrification and
class injustice. So it's got a real, it's got

(43:58):
real heart, but also a real kickto it that I really, really
enjoy. And this is this is in the
festival circuit now, right after your right.
So it, it will be. So we've actually just wrapped,
we've just completed the film. And yes, we are now looking
ahead to festivals and seeing where it goes.

(44:22):
But yeah, it's, it's, it's really great to have made a film
as part of the NFTS. So we've, we've got a lot of
support from them going forward.So it is just, you know, waiting
and seeing where it goes. So hopefully there'll be news
soon and hopefully everyone can come and see it.
And overall, did you have a goodtime on the Talent lab?

(44:42):
It was the first year it ran, soyou know.
Yeah, it was. I think I had maybe kind of a
singular experience in that I was the only director.
And by that I mean Lana and I were working as a team and all
the other directors had also written their scripts.

(45:03):
Right. OK, so you're a solo director.
Yeah, yeah, I, it was great. We had so much, you know, a huge
chunk of the the time on the labwas incredibly useful because we
got into the nitty gritty of what it is to write a film.
And then we had great mentorshipin terms of breaking down

(45:24):
visuals in terms of, you know, how to direct actors, which is,
which is probably something I went into the lab feeling, I
don't want to say, feeling confident.
And I felt like I was in a good position.
Like directing actors is probably one of my favorite
aspects of the job. I really, really enjoy working
with actors, and I really enjoy that exchange of ideas.

(45:48):
But I was, yeah, very, very green when it came to working
with a cinematographer. And I'd actually never been in
the room with an editor. So my first film, the editing
was done remotely. So it was the case of, you know,
getting passes through and giving notes.
Whereas the editing process is probably the most fulfilling

(46:15):
creative partnership I've had inmy career today.
Worked with an absolutely brilliant editor called Roddy
McDonald. Shout out Roddy and the edit
feels that that was a revelationto me, to be honest, was just
how amazing it is to get into anedit with a really, really

(46:40):
skilled editor who has such an eye for good storytelling and
really encourages you and inspires you to make very clear
decisions when you encounter problems or encounter.
You know, it was it was a classic.

(47:01):
It was a classic, you know, novice film making experience
for me in that there were absolutely things that I should
have shot and didn't or elementsof the scenes that didn't
necessarily blend together. But I mean, it was also a joy

(47:24):
because the raw material was so exciting.
So our cinematographer, Alison Thompson, she's, she's from
Bermuda and has just such a, again, a lovely eye for, for
filming people. So, you know, all the footage
was just, I feel like we really got some incredible performances

(47:45):
and got some, some really fun shots that I, I think really
lend themselves to the comedic aspect of the film and some
really beautiful, nuanced dramatic moments, which again
speaks to, you know, the cast were just incredible.

(48:07):
And I sometimes I, it's, it's one of those things that now on
reflection, you know, a little lark.
I made it with two actors and a skeleton crew.
I think we had four members of the crew.
So it was tiny. It was really, really tiny.
And then Lady MacLean, we had anensemble cast of 6 speaking, 6
actors in in, you know, pretty prominent speaking roles.

(48:30):
And we had a supporting cast of about 20.
And then the crew was obviously 60 people.
So it was just this enormous step up in terms of, you know,
really being strict about schedule.
And, you know, our producer, Katie Mallander was just
brilliant. And we had a great AD.

(48:52):
Yeah, it was just the the actualprocess of shooting and then
editing something of that scale and with that many moving parts
was just brilliant. And I don't.
Yeah. I find it very difficult to kind
of talk about what the experience was like because all

(49:16):
of those sections were so wildlydifferent and.
That's interesting though, I think people find it useful to
hear about the process of makinga film and you'll hear more
about our live event in two weeks as well.
So please come along. You plug in that throughout and
let's go into the I thing, whichis slightly different subject,

(49:38):
but spin you feeling like you predicted the future a little
bit there because spin your playwe talked about people can go
back and listen. I think it's episode 103 as
well. If you want to hear cats first
episode two years ago. So the podcast has changed a lot
in some ways since then, but youknow, still enjoy a good
episode. But your place spin was about a
washing machine that basically starts stealing people's the its

(49:59):
owner's data and they become sentient, etcetera, etcetera.
Do you feel like you predicted the AI thing or is it even
shocked you a little bit? How?
How much? I think that the the play was so
inspired by, I mean the play. When I look back on it, the play
was a ridiculous idea because itis essentially about an an

(50:22):
artificial intelligence washing machine that becomes sentient
enough to steal its owner's databut also end up controlling her
the way, you know, a a coercive partnership functions.

(50:42):
I think I just saw, I mean, I think I think I wrote it
intending for it to be funny. And the kind of horror elements
are just reality are just the, the most sinister aspects of AI.

(51:04):
I mean, it's it's a play I wouldlove to do again.
It's also something I'd really love to adapt for screen because
I think there's still so much tobe said about our relationship
with what is now an evolving andincreasingly sophisticated
technology. Yeah, it's man as well, because
two years ago when we recorded our chat, I didn't, I'd never

(51:26):
used chat CBT. And now it's something, in all
honesty, I do use, you know, I don't do everything on it, but
it's a useful tool, you know, it's a useful tool and it's man
to. Yeah.
And that's in two years. That's in two years.
But I, I think it's also, I mean, back then I was using it
out of curiosity and it was, I, I found it kind of disturbing

(51:51):
even then, the way that it couldgive me advice.
I think that was something that really threw me off a little
bit. But now I think it's, I think
it's become increasingly divisive.
And I say that because there aresome obvious downsides, and

(52:12):
maybe downsides is actually too light a word.
There's some really sinister elements of it that genuinely
impact us as creatives. You know, the fact that it is
being trained using artist material without their
permission. AI also crops up quite a lot in,

(52:35):
you know, artwork promoting shows and and films and well, we
a. Recent thing with the trains and
with ScotRail using an AI instead of an actor.
Exactly. Exactly.
You know, and and these remindedme as well that, you know, we
were stuck on a train. I actually bumped into Cat in
person last week. We got stuck on a train and our

(52:56):
commute was just a random coincidence.
And that voice was what was telling us that the train was
AI. Wait, Yeah.
And that's not, you know, it's not a good thing that they could
in answer to that. And I'm, I'm really concerned
about it. It's basically like all
technology. I'm deeply concerned about how

(53:17):
it will be used for evil. And by evil, I genuinely mean to
replace and harm humankind. Yeah.
Did you? Sorry to interrupt.
Did you, did you see this? You just reminded me that did
you see this thing in the somebody who showed me this this
morning, I was having a coffee with them and there's a thing in

(53:37):
the London Underground at the moment.
And it's it's this poster sayingstop hiring humans.
And it's like a product for AI. But I don't know if it's if
that's a joke, unlike that some sort of tongue in cheek thing
where they're taking the piss out of AI or if that is a legit
poster. But those pictures of it,
they've just been in London. They'll show me this stuff's
here. Mad.
Well, isn't it like Duolingo hasreplaced all of its human

(53:58):
employees with AI? Yeah, and Klarma did the same.
I think they replaced half theircustomer service assistants with
this with because it's AI agents.
I'll link it under the show notes.
Well, there's a really interesting episode of the
Guardians today in focus this week came out about the sort of
AI thing and it gave it gives quite a balanced view on it.
So how good that people are interested to hear more

(54:19):
qualified people talk about AI, but it is interested in your
play, you know. When I wrote about an AI washing
machine, I wrote about, I guess the best case scenario use of
AI, which is to take mundane tasks off our hands.
But even that can escalate into something that has a greater

(54:42):
impact on our life than we realise.
You know, I'm also not to go offon one, but I'm also hugely
concerned about the impact that AI has on the climate, which is,
you know. Yeah, I think I read somewhere
mental. It's like a paint of water used
every. Time you ask GPTA question, it

(55:03):
pours out a litre bottle of water.
That's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy.
Or something like that. What what I think will be key
and what would be really interesting in the next 10-15
years is if we can crack making energy usage more efficient and
cheaper and humanity because that's have a huge impact on so
much in a poiler. So let's maybe the aisle figure
that out for us. Who knows?

(55:24):
I mean, not to be a conspiracy theorist, but the people that
are pushing AI are billionaires.The people that are pushing AI
are the ones on top of the food chain right now.
And I think there's a reason forthat.
And I think that is just something that makes me
incredibly suspicious is that they are, they do not have like
oil bosses do not have our interests at heart.
They don't have the climate. They don't have the interests of

(55:47):
the climate at heart. Like I'm just increasingly
suspicious by who is encouragingus to use AI.
And I'm also increasingly concerned about how AI is, is
generating news articles and generating there was something,
I can't remember what publication it was, but there
was a, a summer book list that was generated by, by AI that was

(56:09):
published in an actual newspaperrecently.
And half the books on the list were invented.
They weren't even real. And nobody checked.
Nobody fact checked it. I think it is compromising the
integrity of journalism. I think it's compromising the
integrity of the human ability to think critically.

(56:32):
Yeah, I'm being I'm being perfect as well.
I think the problem is we're going to a world where
everything is perfect because weput it through chat to PT and
what's beautiful about art, my favorite sound in Too Deep is
little mistakes that you do by accident that lead to.
So I think yeah, our conversation today is we've been

(56:52):
very honest about things in our life that are messy.
And, you know, we're doing theseprojects, which are great.
But you know, I hope that it's hard to replace because you do
get AI podcast now. And I'm sure you could lift my
voice from all 170 episodes of this show and and probably do a
decent attempt to say, I mean, Idon't think I don't know how

(57:12):
they would want to do this necessarily.
But Jimmy, you probably could intheory do just get rid of
episode, but it probably wouldn't be as raw and you know,
messy as as we're it is. There are things, there are
things about us that you can't replicate.
And I think as well, there's been conversations that I've had

(57:33):
recently about people using AI to write funding applications or
to actually write work itself. And I just think, well, the
process of writing a funding application is the process of
you figuring things out. It's the process of you
scribbling down thoughts in order to hone them and shape
them into the actual idea. It is, it is a funding

(57:55):
application or an application ofany kind is your working.
So if you can't do the working, why do you think you should get
money to do the work? Simon Sinek quite, quite like a
lot of his work, talked about how he really worries for the
future generation. What are we going to learn?
Any skills? He's written so many books, but
he's like, it was the process ofme writing the book and going

(58:17):
through the work of writing the book that I learned all this
stuff I can take into my life. Then there's a place for chat
duty. You know, we're all busy.
There's a use for it. Like you can work with it to
brainstorm or help you, you know, you know, do an
application or I don't know, like say doing a fund
application. You can, there's a place to use
chargeability in that, but you still have to have to put a view
in there. Do you know what I mean?

(58:38):
It's not using it to completely do something, it's using it to
help. But what I was also going to say
is I think we've yet to see how AI can be used for good in terms
of making things accessible to be Yeah, to how can it help

(58:59):
people do things easier who findthings?
I mean, this isn't, this isn't coherent at all.
Basically, I, I, I think there's, I don't want to say AI
is terrible, no. Completely it's about giving
people the opportunity. I I completely hear what you're
saying. It's about giving people who
maybe wouldn't have always got achance the opportunity and I
think it is doing that. I mean I'm dyslexic.

(59:20):
It's the best spell check I've ever had my life.
It's I use it sometimes to help me do podcast bio stuff because
I'm running a show myself. And he there's positives to it
completely. We're not saying don't use it,
but there's also concerns. And yeah, I mean, it's
interesting. I was like to wrap things up
because I know we've been speaking for a while and you've
got. To go.
Yeah, exactly. And we're, you know, busy people

(59:41):
as we're saying, but I've just got two more.
But one of them is just what is something you were talking about
advocacy earlier. What would you if you could
change something right now in the creative industries?
What would it be like if you hadthat power to change something?
That's a really, really good question.

(01:00:03):
I think what I would encourage or what I would try to advocate
for is for people who, this comes back to the career stage
definitions that are, that are, that are going to be fluid and
are still to be workshopped. But I think there are, this

(01:00:28):
might sound controversial. I think there are artists
companies and, and, and venues for example, who are
established. And when you are established,
you are part of the establishment, which comes with
a certain level of power and responsibility.
And I would really encourage them to look at what supporting

(01:00:49):
artists actually means, because sometimes it's not throwing a
couple of £100 at an artist to do something.
Sometimes it's which, which great, that would that will
definitely benefit a handful of people.
But if 150 people are applying for one spot, you're creating
another hoop for them to jump through.

(01:01:11):
You're, you're creating more competition.
And quite often, you know, getting an opportunity like that
is on the premise of a false promise of employment.
Whereas actually that one way that you can really meaningfully
support grassroots art is grassroots artists is, or

(01:01:32):
artists at all is just come to their work, pay for a ticket,
you know, come to their work, have a conversation.
And again, I, we, I think we're not, we're not stupid.
We realize that there's no moneyto program everything that you
see, but to feel like the establishment are interested and

(01:01:56):
engaged in what's happening beyond the walls of their own,
you know? Do you know the argument I often
make for this, which I think, which is to actually think about
it just just to make it purely about money, right?
Because I think a lot of establishment, that's how a lot
of producers are, companies haveto think, right?

(01:02:19):
By investing in the ecosystem ofyour industry and making a
healthy industry where there's more opportunity and you can
nurture and keep talent, you actually benefit yourself in the
future because you're guaranteeing more people that
are going to have better ideas and you actually need more money
by doing that if you. So it's thinking about how you
invest in that. So for example, I saw recently,
I can't remember the musician's name, but there's a musician

(01:02:40):
who's on the rise and they just did a small thing that they put
a pound of all ticket sales towards venues in Scotland or
local venues. It's tiny.
Stuff like that. Yeah, such a difference because
it's not about investing in one opportunity for one person, it's
about investing in the ecosystemof your industry.
This is the thing I've made about River City recently,
right? That's been cancelled by BBC.

(01:03:01):
Like it's not about the show. They said last week in
Parliament, they said the show was no longer value for money.
I think they're actually not thinking about the bigger
picture right now. There's an argument there
whether it's not about the show itself, but you need to invest
in shows, whether it's River City or not like that, that
represent a healthy ecosystem inyour industry.
So they don't, it doesn't have to be River City, but it needs,

(01:03:23):
you know, if you invest in showsthat are more long running or
cheaper to make, then it is value for money because in 10
years time when you need more talent to make a bigger show,
you have the industry there. It's kind of I'm, I'm kind of
babbling a little bit, but I think it's that investment
mindset. I totally hear what you're
saying. I totally hear what you're
saying. And I love the phrase investing

(01:03:45):
in the ecosystem because it's about what I would really ask
the establishment to do is look around at what already exists.
Look around at who's making workor who's doing scratch nights or
who's creating these opportunities for their peers
and invest in those opportunities and those artists

(01:04:05):
creating those opportunities rather than create your own
version of those things that arethen in direct competition.
Because grassroots, grassroots initiatives like that simply
can't compete with funded organizations that have salaried
marketing departments like that is you're not.

(01:04:26):
You may be supporting a handful of us through those things, but
you are not supporting the, the ecosystem at large because that
then that then creates a, a really unequal playing field
where horses are not going to artists, they're going towards

(01:04:47):
your own brand, which may be a bit of a hot take because I
don't think necessarily when I say the establishment, I, I am
very aware that there are, you know, humans behind those
decisions who are doing what they think is best.
But it is I, I really do passionately think that if you
know what's on the ground and you invest, we keep saying

(01:05:13):
invest. But if you treat that as
legitimate work that is being made and find ways to endorse it
and be more open to being part of that as a cycle of work.
Because what I would love to seeis all the work that's happening
at scratch nights across the country, find a pipeline into

(01:05:37):
production. And we can't do that ourselves.
We, we, I, I don't need AI, don't need a venue to come along
and say, Hey, can we host your scratch night?
I need a venue to come along andsay, hey, I saw that at your
scratch night. We would love to produce it or
we would love to Co produce it or we would love to give you
some money to develop it. Because then the artist that's
presented it at my platform getsan opportunity like that.

(01:06:02):
That's the level of investment that we need.
Not any lip service, not any hey, great, we're going to get
on board on with this thing because they're doing a great
thing that we should be doing. Yeah, and I.
Think again. That is criticism, but it's it's
just the reality. Yeah, but but this is the thing,

(01:06:22):
right? I know money's tight and I know
that I completely agree with that argument.
I get when I cost living crisis,but the culture, the cultural
industries are worth billions and billions of pounds to the UK
right. We should actually utilise this
even more, right, because it gives the UK soft power in the
world and it also gives the UK it's good for the economy, which
is, you know, we don't think about that as much as creative

(01:06:42):
people. It's not as interesting to us.
But on the you know, I think that's why you know, to take
outside the crave interest. It benefits the whole country
and that's why we should invest.And we've got, we've only got a
few minutes left before we need to wrap up.
But I just have one more question for you, which is
what's the biggest lesson you'velearned since we last spoke two
years ago? Oh, do you know?

(01:07:04):
I've got 2, actually. The first is that I enjoy
directing more when it's not my work.
I think I love writing and I love directing and I want to do
those two things separately. There may be some exceptions,

(01:07:24):
but I feel my most creative whenI'm directing work that another
brilliant writer has created. And I can ask more objective
questions and have more fun withit without the anxiety of being
a writer. And I think my, my other lesson

(01:07:45):
I've learned, which probably kind of wraps up a lot of the
things I've already talked, spoken about and might be me
going off on a little rant again, but it's to realise that
even within our own industry, we, we are one ecosystem, but we
have to start thinking of ourselves as part of a wider
ecosystem. You know, we, the arts is hugely

(01:08:08):
impacted by immigration rules. It's hugely impacted by cuts to
PIP. We as artists, if we want, if we
want solidarity from the wider public, we have to give it in
return. We have to recognise that yes,
we can advocate for our own place in society in terms of,

(01:08:30):
you know, legitimising what we do and it's value as we've just
spoken about. But we also have an immense
power to speak up for other people.
And actually, I think maybe I get a bit frustrated at how the
arts can become a little bit of a bubble.
And every time an election rollsaround, I'm like, do you know,

(01:08:52):
there's so many wonderful liberal thinkers who are not
necessarily as engaged in other issues?
Again, a hot take, but I think the what I've learnt is that the
role of the arts is much, much wider and much, much more.
We have a huge social responsibility in both how we

(01:09:17):
make work and what our work is. What are we actually saying this
is? This is maybe the root of that
question, the answer to that question, What are we saying and
why is it important? Like we have, we do have a lot
of power to speak up on things. And I think was it, who was it?

(01:09:38):
I think it was someone wonderfulat Nina Simone who said, you
know, art, the role of the artist is to reflect the times,
and I really feel and absorb that now more than ever.
It's interesting. I do completely agree that the
arts is far too much of A bubble.
And I think it's actually reallysomething I'm trying to, and

(01:09:58):
it's really rich for me to say this sort of where I can tell
you and do a podcast about the bloody arts.
But I'm trying to make this podcast more, you know, not just
focused on. I think a lot of ways spoken
about today applies to not just the Crave industries, but lots
of, you know, societal things. And yeah.
But I think you're doing that anyway because you are a very
generous interviewer in that youmake space for people to talk

(01:10:22):
about their lives. And that's, that's exactly what
I mean. It's, it's being able to talk
about our lives, not just as artists, but all of the wider
things that affect us all the time.
Like we are. We are living in unbelievable
times where the weight of the world and the collective grief
of the world is so heavy that being able to connect is a huge

(01:10:44):
blessing. Yeah, completely.
I mean, that's a really nice place to end on.
But Kat has been lovely to have you back on the show above this
conversation. Very.
We've been, I think it's nice tojust be honest.
It's almost like a bit of a fairy session in some ways.
But, you know, get some rest before our big event.
But reminder that, yeah, we're doing our live show 22nd of
June. Also just for the listeners,

(01:11:04):
because I didn't mention this inthe intro, but I'm going to this
episode will be out and then there won't be a new episode
next week. But I am doing a live show.
So if you want a podcast that week, just come and see that
instead. And then the podcast will be
back to normal service the week after.
So yeah, but yeah, no. Lovely to chat.
Kat, thank you so much for your time and keep doing what you're
doing. It's really important.
And you thanks for having me andI'll see you on June 22nd.

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EP. 172 - ‘Creating the Community You Wish Existed’ with Cat MacLeod

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}EP. 172 - ‘Creating the Community You Wish Existed’ with Cat MacLeod