Ep. 174 - 'Football, Fringe Dreams & Finding Your Voice' with Kate Coulson - Just Get A Real Job

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Just Get a Real Job
with your host, me, Jamie McKinley.
I'm thrilled to welcome on the show this week the wonderful
Kate Coulson. Kate, how's it going?
Thank you very much for joining us tonight.
How are you getting on? You're so welcome.
As, as as we were saying before we started recording, I'm a fan.
So it's lovely to be to be here.Yeah, it's it's good.

(00:23):
It's all just a bit chaotic. But such is life.
How are you? I'm all right, Yeah.
I was just telling you this is the first episode we recorded in
a few weeks. And in a new flat, so unfamiliar
surroundings, chaos. But, you know, we're gonna roll
with it and the show must go on,etcetera.
And. But Gate, do you want to sort of
introduce yourself? If I'm listeners, you're about

(00:44):
to go to Edinburgh, Friends withyou debut play I believe
Lioness. Yeah, well, it's my debut solo
show. I've written a show.
I wrote a show for the Camden Fringe a couple of years ago
called All The Glitters, which was great.
And would thoroughly recommend the Camden Fringe for anyone who
doesn't have the like funds or time to go up to Edinburgh

(01:06):
because it's expensive. And I've been like working
towards this for like 2 years. So I like there's definitely
there's other alternatives out there, but yeah, heading up to
Edinburgh and with Lioness, which obviously we'll talk about
in a second. And I am a actor, writer, born

(01:27):
and bred N Londoner and just sort of full time show off
basically. Can we swear?
Can I swear on this? Yeah, OK.
I don't know why I asked that. I just had that little one.
I was very polite about it on the podcast.
No, no, no, but I was just goingto say full time show off
knobhead really. But that's very much, I do a bit
of everything. I think that's kind of the the

(01:50):
industry that we work in really.And I love I it's definitely a
lot to get your head around sometimes, but I love just
making work and writing stuff and just creating like telling
stories that maybe haven't been told yet and not sticking to
traditional forms and formats and yeah, shaking up what like,

(02:16):
sort of theatre can mean. Oh, that was unintentionally
pretentious. Sorry about that.
You know how podcast the coachesget rid of about that.
So you're allowed to be a littlebit like to be a little bit
pretentious, but no case love itto have you on.
And you know, I'm interested to talk to you about performing and
writing and taking a show to thefringe.
You're sort of in the run up to fringe and normally this time

(02:38):
you're on the show. We have a lot of guests that are
going up there promoting shows and it's that time of year.
So I'm, I'm imagine as well, quite a few.
I was reminding you before we started recording as well that
you're only two weeks away. So it's, you know, it's getting
close, but there's lots, lots I want to talk to you about.
But sort of begin, let's cast our minds back into your sort of
early years. Like have you always been a

(02:59):
creativity person? You know, talk about growing up
in North London. Were you always into acting and
writing or does that come more recently?
Yeah, I was always, I was that kid that would do shows in the
living room like I would make mysister.
My sister isn't St. she is a nurse.
She is incredible. But I would make her do like

(03:20):
shows with me and I'm the baby as well.
So she could just said, you know, but bless her, she felt
compelled to join me. And I think I I'm from a very
funny family. Like we would always like what?
And I used to watch a lot of comedy as well.
Like we would watch like the great British, like so like your
black Adder porridge, only foolsand horses dinner ladies.

(03:43):
Like with what I, I grew up watching that and I was also
lucky enough to grow up like going, like going to the
theatre. Like my mum and dad will be
like, oh, we'll go and go and see like A Christmas Carol.
We're going to go and see Oliveror go and like, and I remember
like watching panto for the first time, like when I was 5
and I was like, this is a riot. Like this is great.

(04:03):
Like this is people can do this.This is a job and my mum always
tells the story that I don't remember of apparently when I
was 5I in a school play, I sang a song about a wave going up my
nose and everyone laughed. I hope they were supposed to,
but my mum was like, oh, maybe she this could be something that
she could actually do. Be careful what you wish for

(04:24):
mum. But I think I just did a lot of
school plays and then when I wasat uni I did a lot of student
theatre. Spent more time on that than my
actual degree. Him and I think I've always
liked writing and I've always sort of scribbled bits down here
and there again ever since I wasyoung.

(04:45):
But I always thought like, Oh well, I'm not a writer that you
have to go and do a course to dothat or you have to go and be
sort of. I always I always felt that oh,
like I couldn't I couldn't writeanything.
And then when I graduated drama school, I just thought, well, I
mean, why not just give it a go?Because the first thing that you

(05:06):
a first thing that you write, I think that any of us write is
going to be a bit shit. And I think it's just giving
yourself the grace to kind of try it.
And I also just thought, well, no one's going to give me a
role. So I'll just have to write 1
myself. And that's, I'll just, I'll just
do it that way. But I'm definitely still
figuring it all out. Like that's, that's a journey

(05:28):
that I think we're all on our pretentious moment #2 sorry,
it's something tension that I promise.
But I'm lucky as well that I've got really good friends and who
I can send my ramblings to. Shout out Megan, who's one of my
best mates. I sent her pretty much
everything I write and she always helps me with it and she
sends me what she writes as well, so that's always fun.

(05:52):
No, I mean as well like to touchon the North London element.
Hey, you obviously I think that's a very working class
thing where you talk about a passionate thing that you do
like say working in the arts or whatever and you instantly feel
like you've been a lion. Can you go, I'm being
pretentious and you catch yourself?
But I've noticed you do I do allthe time as well, especially on

(06:13):
the show or if I'm in public andstuff.
Is that a factor that defend theNorth London something?
Does that give you a sense of imposter syndrome or does it
does it make you catch yourself like I mentioned?
I think it like, like I said, like I was, we were always so
like lucky, like I when I, we were always like reading was

(06:34):
like a really great thing that we were all like encouraged to
do like it was doing. I think I was yeah.
I think something that I've sortof thought I guess as well more
like as I've got older and I've got obviously friends, I've got
amazing creative friends who I'mso grateful for.
And I've also got friends who don't work in creative jobs

(06:57):
whatsoever. And like, so I could and I'm
they're really good at making sure that my head doesn't ever
get too big. Also being the baby of quite a
big family. And that's also something that
I'm this is never a worry, nevera worry there.
No matter how successful I wouldever like become in my wildest
dreams, I would be, I'd come home and like my mum would be

(07:19):
like empty the dishwasher. Like there's no, there's no,
there's no fucking about. And I think, yeah, I, I
definitely felt imposter syndrome 100%.
Like I think I went to like the lovely Chloe Elkin, who we both
know, the Liv and Emma, they were, well, they are a lovely PR
team. And they through, not just them,

(07:43):
the whole company through like asummer like mixer drinks for us.
And it was for people who were going to the fringe.
It was just everyone who they were working with at the time.
And I remember just being like, Oh my God.
Like this is just, I'm so not used.
I'm normally the one working behind the bar at those kind of
events. I'm not used to being like

(08:03):
people like, oh, so yeah. Like tell me about your work.
And I'm like, oh, it's just thissilly little show about
football. Really.
Like it's, it's, yeah, I think it's, it's it's definitely
something that I'm learning to hopefully get better at.
No, it's hard. The more the more evidence you
collect, I find it gets slightlyeasier.

(08:26):
But then you still find yourselfeventually.
This is mad. Absolutely mad.
Yeah, it's a strange one. It's definitely a strange one.
OK, I want to talk to you about your show, obviously, and lots
of other things. But someone I wanted to touch on
was dyspraxia, right? This is something I've not had
the chance to have talked about on the show, but I've not really
had anyone on that I can have chat about properly.

(08:49):
And you've. Got a footballer?
Yeah, exactly. No, it's lovely, but I.
Used a term very loosely. Well, you know, you're flying
the flag for the football and you're sure I'm excited to get
gravity about football as well because something else I'm, you
know, a big part of my identity and stuff.
I'm a massive football fan and Ilove watching and stuff.
And but to start with, this is aparaxia.

(09:11):
How does that affect you? And maybe we can explain to
listeners what actually, I don'tthink a lot of people don't.
I think most people think this paraxia is just that you're
clumsy. That's basically.
That is a common misconception and one one I used to be a lot
when I was younger. I think I've hopefully I've got
a bit better. I can't remember the last time I

(09:32):
broke something. So that's a win.
Oh no, that's a lie. I literally broke a glass last
week. Ignore that.
It's it's much more than just being clumsy.
I think it's for me anyway, it, well, I mean it manifests itself
in lots of different ways For meit's a like more of a processing
thing. So there will be if someone tell

(09:56):
it will it? But again, it kind of depends on
my environment because I was about to say, someone will give
me an instruction and then it might take me like a couple of
seconds to be like, OK, they need me to do this.
That's what I'll do and I'll do it like this.
I won't just be able to just go and do it.
But then when I'm at work, so I teach a lot.
That's how I earn most of my most of my bread.

(10:18):
And I, if I've got a kid on one hit and a kid telling me
something that they like a problem that they're having and
I've got someone else asking me to do something and I think, and
I've got someone else going, oh,OK, I forgot my script today.
That I can do like that. I can, I can deal with just
fine. So I think it's, yeah,

(10:38):
situational processing and maybetaking longer to process things.
Also, when you're doing one thing and someone's telling you
to do something else, sometimes my brain is just like, and that
can also make. I've sort of had to have some
coping mechanisms with that. Also, for me, it's like left and

(10:58):
right under pressure. That's why I still can't drive
at my big age of 27. So I'm 29 and I can't drive so
don't worry. There needs there needs to be
like some sort of dyspraxics pass like there needs that.
It's well, not like literally pass because that would be
dangerous, but like I feel I feel like there or there needs

(11:19):
to be there must be like a driving like driving instructors
who are like specifically or like for people with.
Yeah, I was actually looking forthat where I live in Glasgow, to
be honest, because just to say as well, very similar, how a lot
of what you're talking about shows up for me as well.
It's weirdly something. Yeah, quite, quite similarly.

(11:41):
And it's weird because it's something only in the last few
years that I was in a documentary called Working
Differently, who is that is directed by an amazing a
Scottish filmmaker called HannahCurry.
She's Brown had on the show twice.
And yes, yes, I remember. Yeah.
But it was all about like the film was all about TV and how we
can better accommodate new Divergent and the industry and

(12:03):
stuff. And it was only for doing that
that I really started to interrogate my dyspraxia because
I've always been I'm dyspraxic and dislikes is easy because
most people in 2025 know pretty much most things about dislikes.
And I'm not saying that it's notdifficult and it shouldn't be
talked about, but I think I feelmore comfortable talking about
being dyslexic where it's dyspraxia, but like I don't know

(12:23):
what it is. So I'm really sort of recently
become way more aware of how it affects men.
Again, you're talking about processing stuff.
It's really tricky. So even I was doing most of
interviews last week for a job, which I unfortunately didn't
get. But like even things like that,
it's a lot harder to processing information quickly and stuff.
And obviously I love it. I did this, I've got better at
it, but it isn't naturally as easy.

(12:44):
And, you know, I'm breaking things all the time and at
dropping things and bumping intothings and stuff.
My girlfriend hates walking nextto me sometimes my near Rd.
stuff. Yeah, it's tricky.
It's tricky. But you know, again, I think I
love talking about stuff like this on the podcast because it
doesn't stop you from going and having a career in the arts and
the. It really doesn't.

(13:06):
And I think we like the arts areprobably one of the few things
that will not few, one of the many things that we have over
our sort of more like corporate T counterparts is that I imagine
that we're a much more like accepting workforce.
Like I've never felt when I've been working as a like creative

(13:28):
person doing whatever really, but I've never felt like, Oh,
I'm like my, I'm, I'm dyspraxic and I'm, I'm sort of like
embarrassed or like scared to say that or something like so
because also when it comes to like learning things like
choreography, for example. So I did a lot of dance when I
was younger and I loved it. But I like realise, and also

(13:53):
it's quite, I mean, music theatre is a brutal world.
I should have thought I wanted to be for a bit.
And then I was like, Nope, that's I.
But I have so much respect for, for people who, who pursue that.
And I think like now, like even like learning like when I've, I
still love dance now. But then I think when I was
younger, I found that that processing time and especially

(14:16):
when it was movement and coordination based, when the
instructions were obviously or movement and coordination based,
I would really, it would take mea lot longer to, to learn it and
I would get there, but it would just take time.
And obviously when you're in. So I used to go to a pineapple
dance like when I was a teenagerand you don't have time there.
You pick up, you pick up routines and then you're on to

(14:37):
the next one. So I'd be like, but now I, I do
dance like when I can because I love it.
And I, it's, I try and take the sort of stress factor out of it.
But football as well, like I play and for like my local
grassroots team, like just I can't, I can't ever when you
play because I work on my Saturday, but I go and I train

(14:59):
when I can and and that it's like there that was I was like,
Oh my God, I'm going to be awful.
Like I'm going to be terrible. Like also like anyone just heard
like you pay £5 and you can turnup.
It's not like pressured in any way.
But I was, it's even now being completely honest, it's still a
bit of a like this very app. I can't because I avoided in

(15:21):
sports. When I hit puberty, I stopped
playing football and I avoided team sports like the play
because I was like, I can't catch.
I can't do this. I can't, I can't do it.
And that's like, well, I can't do it, so just avoid it.
But yeah. I think that's the the other big
common thing with people that are dyspraic or have any sort of
new divergent or disabilities. Often you're bad at something at
high school because of it, or you're not.

(15:42):
I think even saying you're bad is actually the wrong way of
describing it. See, it's inherent.
It's inherent. I think you're bad at it, or
people tell you that you are. Yeah.
And you and you take that, you internalize that because it
takes you longer to do things then you just avoid doing
anything you're not naturally good at.
So I'm terrible at doing things I know I'm bad at.
So I love exercising now and I'mreally into the gym and climbing

(16:04):
and things like that. But it's taken me years to sort
of reclaim that. And even now I'll go do a gym
class and I'm like, I can't do that weight properly.
And I feel really self-consciousbeing in a group because you're
like, I'm back in PE again and. Yeah, that feeling, I know
exactly that feeling like the pit in your stomach, I know
exactly that. But that's incredible though,
like, and it's all it's I feel like the older that we get, like

(16:25):
reclaiming like stuff that we were told or that we thought
that we couldn't do when we wereyounger for the lack of whether
it's a neuro divergent reason ora confidence reason.
I think that's it's so important.
And like props to you because that's you're going out of a
comfort zone and you're doing something like for your like,
but for your body and like, for your mental health and like

(16:47):
that's, that's a, that's a really great thing.
So yeah, props to you. You've got to do it though as
well, especially I think workingin the arts.
You need to get better. You need to get good at putting
yourself out your comfort zone because unfortunately it's often
like that. I'm sort of talking about sport.
Nice segue there. It leads us into line A You're
welcome. Tell us about your show.

(17:07):
I'm going to be nice as a Scottish person as well and not
be too mean about. I was about to say when you're
like, oh, football is a really big part of my identity.
I was like being Scottish. There's a being rubbish at
football's fighting, you know, it's the but yeah, we'll talk
about, let's talk about lioness so that, listen, I don't have as
much beef with the English womanteam as I did the men, so it's

(17:28):
all right. There was that great clip.
I will, I promise I will talk about my show in a second, but
there was that great clip with Ithink it's Lewis Capaldi on.
It was like Graham Graham Nortonor Jonathan Ross or like a chat
show and it was Lewis Capaldi tosomeone else who I can't
remember and Chloe Kelly, the obviously the Lionesses striker.

(17:52):
And it was just after the IT wasEUR 2022 victory and the host
Arsenal's Capaldi. So did you like cheer for the
England Lionesses? If there's Capaldi went no.
But then he looked to cloak and he was like, my only like the
only compliment I can give you is that I was just as angry as
when you won as when England menwin anything else.
And she was like laughing like she like, you know, obviously

(18:14):
lose commodity is hilarious. So she wasn't like, obviously
she wasn't offended. And I was just like that.
That's it's it also shows shows how far it's come as well.
But we still don't know what to do, which, yeah, I guess is a
little bit of what my show about.
So lie there. It's and it's a one woman comedy

(18:35):
drama following a female footballer called Mani through
the sort of like penalties, periods and pressure of a WSL
Championship season. She is battling relegation with
her team and also her She's alsodating Premier League footballer

(18:56):
whose career starts to dip and hers starts to crumble.
And it's sort of using a mirror to how we sort of treat both men
and women in well, using football as a mirror to treat
see how we treat women and women.
And it's also about confidence and fan culture and, and sort of

(19:18):
the like depths of football Twitter and how she responds to
those, the good, the bad, the ugly.
And what obviously the Euro 2022when for people who might not
know, might not follow women's football in the England women's
team, the Lionesses, they won EUR 2022 and women's football
was then obviously catapulted into the mainstream, which is

(19:42):
fantastic. But there's, I think there's
like 56, I think 56% more women and girls play football now than
three years ago, which is amazing.
And I'm, I'm one of those 5056 Iplayed when I was a kid and not,
not over sort of like properly, but I loved it despite the
dyspraxia. And I then got to puberty and

(20:06):
there wasn't a team for me. I, there wasn't a girls team in
my area. So I, I was just told, sorry,
you can't play. And I was like, OK, fine.
And then now you see like we've got in the, the team that I play
for, there's like an under, I think we go, you can go to like
an under nines. I think like there's loads like
which is obviously incredible. Also, I'm I'm really not great.

(20:27):
I just love it. But I think there's still like
you go on like so when the Everton stadium on Goodison
Park, which is obviously the, I think the oldest stadium in the
Football League that has what itwas going to be torn down and
it's now been repurposed for theEverton women's team.

(20:48):
It's obviously incredible. You look at the comments on the
BBC article, Oh, this is who's disappearing.
They're never going to they're never going to sell it out.
And this is just a piece that only appeasing the 100 lesbians
who turn up and watch. Oh, like it's all you sing or
XYZ is being shoved down our throats.
And these people don't understand the the women's game

(21:11):
was you go back 100. No, just over 100 years now,
before the ban, because women's football was banned for 50 years
between 1921 to 1971. Before that, women's football
was more Yeah, it was banned. That's bad that I didn't know.
Yeah, it was. Banned.
We were that we were told it's the exact words unsuitable for

(21:32):
females because they thought it would impact our ability to have
children. And of course it doesn't.
But yeah, it was. And before that, women's
football was more popular than men's like there was, but we but
and we were never actually we like I was there.
It's the women of the time. They weren't allowed to.

(21:55):
There's a whole bit about this in in liners and say they
weren't allowed to make money from their games, so they don't
need to do their sets to charity.
And the charities that they weredonating to were like things
about like striking minors and other socialist causes that the
government were like, oh, we don't like that.
And yeah, then it was, then it was banned and then obviously

(22:17):
when England man, sorry Jamie won the World Cup in 1966,
Jackass was like, this is ridiculous, why are women not
allowed? To play Internet's calf.
They didn't hear that. No course not.
But it's they that was a part ofthe that was part of the
propelling it back. And obviously you have amazing

(22:37):
figures like Ian Wright, who hadbeen a long time champion of the
women's game. But then you've also got people
like Joey Burton who will vocalise his opinions very
loudly. And there are a lot of people
who listen sadly like this. And what's concerning, and this
is what, again, something that Itouch on in my show, Marni,

(22:58):
there's a scene where she reads tweets about her and some of
them have been tweeted by young,like boys, like.
And it's again, obviously in like a post of adolescence
world. It's like, I remember I watched
that and I was like, this is incredible.

(23:19):
But I was like, this isn't news to me because I work with young
people. I teach like, I teach every day.
And everyone else is like, Oh myGod.
Like there's this, this is this,this is happening.
Like there's this thing called, like, there's this thing called
like the manosphere. And I'm like, yeah, like that's
quite a lot of people know aboutknow about that.

(23:39):
And so we sort of we touch on that a little bit as well.
And the fact that it's actually worryingly like the younger
generation making these comments.
But it is still a comedy. So audience can expect money
clapping back like very like firmly and hopefully funnily at
the like men who tell her, oh, you're right.

(24:02):
For a girl, like you see her teammates, how they support her
and it's of course, it's also about female friendship and how
that kind of changing room chaosand like platonic love is binds
that team together more than anysort of like relationship good.

(24:24):
As already there's loads of great themes there.
I've I've, I've such a strange thing, right?
I find a weird thing. And then, and I know this does
not represent the majority of what most people who love
football probably think, becausethere's a lot of people that
watch football that are very firmly focused and community
focused and stuff on both men and women's football.
But there's a weird thing you always see online where like
some men are obsessed the idea like, well, if they play the

(24:44):
men's team, like they'd get likebeat and all that.
I'm like, why is this? It's bizarre.
I don't get this weird obsession.
There's an Instagram, there's anInstagram account I follow where
that I was reading that those comments the other day is called
the sport SI think I could be wrong.
I think it was them and they were putting up because

(25:05):
obviously the Lionesses are are playing at the minute.
Well, when this is being recorded with three
quarterfinals, I really hope that we hope we beat Sweden.
I don't know that's always another thing, but we it was in
the game where we beat the Netherlands 4 nil, which was a
brilliant get. Well, I could only watch bits of
it. Sadly I was at work, but someone

(25:26):
put what this that this account that's literally it's an account
for women's football. They just put a picture up of
Lauren James. He plays for England and they
were like, oh, Lauren James is the best footballer in the world
or something like that. Was just and so many of the
comments were she wouldn't get into a decent half decent Sunday

(25:47):
league team. She wouldn't like so many times
15 year old boys have beaten women's teams.
When is this going to stop beingshoved down our throats like so
obviously after through it like in the past three years, there's
like women's football being in the mainstream is brilliant, but

(26:08):
there's people really look at itthrough rose tinted glasses and
that's what lioness is about taking those glasses off and
thinking, OK, there's a great things, but there's also still
work to do I just. I just don't get why people cave
so much than that. But it's not really relevant
like some of the football, some of the football not watching

(26:28):
Scotland and you know, I love going to see local games and
stuff. Basically, it's so bad.
Yeah, but you go because you love it.
You know what you're watching weekly like, you know, yeah,
it's just, yeah. I mean, I mean, I love it as
well. It is, you know, money is a big
aspect. And especially in men's
football, you have things that you know the golf between like

(26:49):
the Premier League and the Scottish Premier League is just.
Course, yeah. But yeah, it's actually, it's
bizarre. And I, I mean, this is not the
same in the abuses on Twitter and stuff to some of the, you
know, footballers because I'm, I'm a Man United fan, I'll
confess, which, you know, not fun for me at the moment.
Must. Be one of the few Scottish Man

(27:09):
United fans. Affiliation to Scotland because
Matt Busby was Scottish, Alex Ferguson was, you know, so
there's a huge connection there.It's because of my granddad
actually. He was a Man United fan from
back in the 60s and 50s and 60s.So I grew up, that's why, you
know, it's not very fun now. Yeah.
No, I respect. I respect you more knowing that.

(27:33):
Well, it's Scottish team's rubbish.
It's more Rave Rover as well. They're, you know, they're
pretty rubbish so it balances out.
I can't. Imagine you living in Glasgow,
banding around here on Monday night.
Keep that under that. Just speaking about toxicity and
stuff, Glasgow's pretty running bad for that, that you just try
and keep your keep your head down there and not get sucked

(27:53):
into that. But the point I was making was
when I was a couple of years ago, I said there's some free
because of podcasts and stuff. I've some friends are United
fans around, they do some my United fan YouTube stuff.
So I was like I did 2 shows liveand I've never in my life bar
like the odd comment had any abuse for doing a creative
industries podcast. The majority of people online, I

(28:13):
mean, we're not quite big enoughto be getting that many comment
really, but the majority of people online.
Not. Yet, yeah, yeah, yeah.
The majority of people online are really complimentary or
quite supportive and stuff. I did 2 live shows for, for that
fan channel and it was so abusive.
I was getting like tweets if youwould just like disagree with
having an opinion on like a transfer or something.
I was like. And I was.

(28:34):
And for that reason, I was like,I'm never, I don't, I just want
to do that. And I can only imagine like the
stuff that female pundits particularly are getting online
and stuff, it's just just mad. And even things like in tennis,
like Emirate, I think it's Emirate Akanu that used to be,
she gets mad. That was, that was kind of where

(28:55):
it all started. When I was writing it, it was I
thought, OK, well, what do female athletes, not necessarily
just footballers, but female athletes have to deal with that.
Male athletes don't. And I was just wrote down as
many things I could think of. So I was like, OK, well,
periods. So there's a scene in line
that's where Mani gets a period during your game.

(29:17):
And it's like, it's actually quite funny.
She's like, she's like, well, how long left, right.
OK, you're not wearing white shorts.
Like you're fine. Just come and like, it's it's
you can obviously like that is obviously a serious thing, but
you can make comedy, You can make it.
You can like shed comic light onit really.
And then they then I was thinking, oh, well, there's also

(29:38):
linking to that. There's pregnancy and childbirth
and if you want to have a baby or if you can have a baby or if
I so there's I think the vast majority of women like even like
professional women's clubs. I'm pretty sure most of them
either don't have maternity policies or their maternity

(30:01):
policies are very, very new. Like, because obviously.
And there's you see incredible. Like there's Elise, a couple she
plays for West Ham. I've forgotten her name, but she
had a baby and she had a baby inSeptember and she was back
playing by like April or March. Like it's incredible.
Like it's so of course that it's, it can happen, it just

(30:21):
needs the support there. And I was like just listing all
these things and obviously things about like financial
instability and also the emotional side, like all women
expected to sort of being doing the lion's share of the
emotional labour. Like in a relationship, like
maybe or just like all of these things, I was thinking, OK, how
can I shape these and put these ideas into a show?

(30:43):
And but also I get to play the men as well.
So that's always fun. No, it's it's so it's
dramatically very rich and I look forward to seeing it the
Fringeville. But tell us a bit more like
where is it on? How can people come and see it
and stuff like. That so it's at Clover Studios
at Greenside Riddles Court and I'm up there for the full run.

(31:06):
It's the 1st to the 23rd of August, but not the 10th or the
17th. I've got a couple of Sundays off
but yeah, please, please come down.
We're also doing like 2 for one previews at the start of the
fringe. So you can get our, our tickets
are included and I think quite most shows do that, I believe.
So if you, you fancy coming to see us for potentially for free,

(31:30):
I'm pretty sure you can. And there's also like locals,
pretty sure that you know, like the local, like Edinburgh
locals, like discount schemes. I'm like, I'm pretty like, yeah,
no, I definitely ticked when I was doing my registration.
I was like, yes, yes, I want everyone to come and see it
because that's also the other thing.
Like I, there's I, I grew up in football crowds and I also grew

(31:52):
up in going to like dance classes and theatre and doing
like Stagecoach and stuff. And it was these two very
different groups of people that I grew up with who I felt just
as at home with in, in both. And you'd never really like mix.
It's almost a bit like that scene in Billy Elliot where it's
like the the orb or even better in that in Pride, which is one

(32:14):
of my favorite films. It was kind of like you had
those two really different groups of people.
But it's, I think what, and I always reference Dear England's
also because I've robbed one of their little sequences.
I was like, that's great. I'm going to take that and
slightly reshape and stick it inmy play.
And I think just James Graham's obviously an incredible writer

(32:36):
and theatre maker and creator, but I think there's something
that he did with Dear England that was so special, was that so
many people who went to watch it, they haven't ever like they,
they maybe even they were even first time theatre goers.
Or maybe they like, would go to like panto or like a musical
here and there, but they wouldn't ever go and just watch

(32:57):
like go and watch theatre because they think, oh, it's,
it's not for me. It's too posh.
It's like, I, it's, I'm not going to get anything out of it.
And obviously that's completely fair enough.
But I think we've all got responsibility to make the arts
more accessible, especially in today's current climate, a
climate where funding is gettingcut every which way you look

(33:20):
like. I mean, I remember messaging you
when I saw stuff about River City, Like it's all just like,
it's such a like this. I mean, I won't go too much into
politics because I just get too angry.
But really, like we've had a label government for the past
year. Can you tell?
I don't think so. Like it's, it's something that I

(33:42):
feel like we've all got a collective responsibility to do.
And I think I would. So I would love in my audience
if there were people who were there, were there locals or
people who've never been to the frame or people who just
literally passing through and like, oh, this, I like football.
Let's give this a go. Like I would be so proud if
people who maybe didn't really think theatre or like maybe

(34:06):
they're just there to go and seesome comedians.
Like if they thought, oh, no, that looks OK.
Maybe I like football. I love football.
I'm a die hard X fan. I'd even accept Man United.
I've got a lot of friends who are Man United fans.
So I, yeah, you know who you areif you're listening.
So I think that I would that that would almost make me like

(34:30):
the proudest that and of course,in the LGBTQ plus community,
men's football, there's obviously there's no, there's
no, I think there's one professional player who's out
there's like in in every like professional league, which is
mental. Whereas in women's game, it's a

(34:51):
lot more accepting, it's a lot more open.
It's like, and there's a lot of players and fans who identify as
part of that community. So I would also be, I would be
just as proud to have audience members who identify with like
with the LGBTQ plus community, like both my director and my
producer do. And that was really important to

(35:11):
me as well because it's so I want them to feel like that they
can watch the game they love andfeel safe and their support is
valued. And they definitely influence
because there's a lot of songs and not me singing.
Absolutely not. It's not a musical, but there's
a lot of like transition songs and there's like a club sequence

(35:32):
and there's a sort of Preak because obviously.
So a lot of teams, people who aren't familiar with football,
quite a lot of teams have like asong that's specific to them
that so it's there's sort of prematch songs.
And so there's a lot of music sort of interweaved within the
show and definitely my my fabulous gay friends influence
the soundtrack. Noise is really, I think what

(35:58):
the arts sometimes doesn't do well is that we don't always as
an industry appeal to people that aren't that interested in
being in the arts and working inthe arts.
Because I think we sometimes if you're a creative fashion, you
forget they're not that many people want to listen to just
get real job podcast because they don't in the same.
Do you know what I mean? It's like that thing where like

(36:19):
not everyone's interested in like a really specific episode
about whatever it might be or not everyone's interested in
like, I don't know, indie films about this and that like.
So I think it's important sometimes that we do make shows
that do appeal to people that, you know, maybe aren't
comfortable in that environment because it is unfortunately

(36:39):
quite a middle class industry. And I think even if you're not
middle class and you work in it,it's still that sort of quite a
closed door thing. I think film particularly is bad
for film festivals are very, youknow, a certain type of
audience. And I think we need to get
better making shows and marketing shows in a way that
appeals him, the average person.Well, I've learned so much about

(37:00):
the film and telly industry fromlistening to you, from listening
to this, because I graduate drumschool.
I have done, I've done like a couple of little like short
films here and there that I've really enjoyed working on, but I
didn't I don't really, I don't really know anything about how
that sort of being like the telly or, or just screen

(37:24):
industry in general. Obviously I know telly and film
is very different. I didn't really know any bit
about how how it worked until I started listening to you.
And then I was thinking I was like, Oh, what there's this is
like I thinking about things like star casting and how your
your people who I mean, I've gota really good friend, Jack
Bentz, who was in bad education and Peep Show and has CVS from

(37:50):
your arm. And he's a very, very dear
friend of mine. And he sort of he's a little
bit, he won't like me saying this.
He's a little bit older than me.And so I go to him for lots of
things that he's sort of like questions and like we will, we
work together. And I have, I love him to bits,
but he was like, he'll like often would just sort of chat

(38:10):
about like, oh, like there's, there's literally like just
nothing being like, he's like, Ican't, I've not been able to
like get in the room for things that I know 10 years ago I would
be, I would be like walking intolike.
And it's, it's the sort of the people who were the like,
obviously the like the 2%, the 2% of actors who make their

(38:33):
living from acting there. There's so few jobs to go around
now that obviously they are thislike pool of people that is so
like almost impossible to to go into that.
Then you like everyone who was like maybe not quite there, but
like doing pretty well for themselves.

(38:54):
They've sort of fallen right down the ladder.
So they're now only getting the sort of like 3 line 5 line like
day player roles that would havebeen in the past.
Someone like me would have potentially been they've been
like, oh, well, she's got no telly credits, but she's we need
a blonde native Londoner who haslived experience working behind

(39:18):
the bar for this specific bit ofthe insert drama here, like this
five line. Cool.
Let's let's just give her a shotnow.
That would be that. Obviously it's, it's, it's
different now and it's like, I think listening to this and it's
the, the results like, yes, well, thank you for putting out
such a great resource because it's really, it's so useful.

(39:40):
Any drama school, either graduates or people, if you're
still training, tell your friends about school class
because it will teach you a lot more than drama school will,
because quite a lot of them are still very theatre based.
And like this is how you like, like when you're in an audition,
I'm like, just get the audition.That's what I want.
I could do that. I just need to know how to get
in the bloody room. There is a massive gap in the

(40:03):
industry for that and that's oneof the reasons why to start spot
this. But thank you very much.
I'm not very good at taking a compliment so I'm going to
quickly. I appreciate it.
I appreciate you. They're kind of it.
I'm going to, I want to ask you 2 questions as well before we
move on from my next. I want to know a bit of an
influence is behind the show, what the shows and stuff

(40:24):
inspired it and like what about your own experience you're
talking about being in there andfootball crowds growing up and
stuff. Tell us about that as well.
So I grew up watching Arsenal and I love it and I still do.
And I actually didn't realise that I'm wearing wearing one of
their T-shirts. Now that was promise you that

(40:45):
was unintentional And and I but I grew up, I grew up watching, I
grew up going in the terraces atHighbury watching like Cherry
Henry and it's just like obviously falling in love with
the game. But I also grew up watching Alex
Scott and the women's and All Star women are the, I believe,
most successful women's team. I'm 99% sure that's right.

(41:07):
Yeah. No, they must be.
They're the only team to have ever won.
I know. Did City do it a couple of years
ago? I think for ages they might not
be any more, but for ages they were the only team to have won a
domestic and international quadruple in like 2007.
They just, well, they just won everything because they were

(41:29):
obviously like you have like you're Arsene Wenger, who isn't
like a very sort of like liberalminded and like like European
and like values and wanting to, to build like a sort of like a
sort of one card mentality. And you also had Dick Acres, who
was the manager who really believed in women's football

(41:49):
like back in the 90s, like when nobody really did.
So I think that was then and then when I think I was
definitely really influenced by well, I mentioned Alex Scott.
I read her her autobiography, How not to be strong, which was
all about how like she they would work shifts in the Arsenal

(42:10):
laundry to earn some earned money so they could play.
They would go and shake buckets and Sainsbury's when they were
sort of in the under fifteens and the sixteens to fundraise
with their like training, like trips abroad, like to go and
play abroad. And like especially in America,
because obviously women and girls football, there has always
been like that's something that I think is much more sort of

(42:32):
culturally been around for like a really long time.
So that they that definitely influenced me like watching the
women's game and loving the women's game.
And then also like when so I have it that I I'll go.
I've got a lot of my like my male friends who are absolutely
adore and, and if I ever meet their friends and they're all

(42:53):
talking about football, maybe it's their friends.
You don't don't haven't met me before.
And I'll come in with an opinionon something and whether it's a
transfer or how someone's form has been that weak or whatever
it might be. And then I look not some.
Sometimes they'll look at me in a bit like AI wasn't expecting
you to say that because you're agirl.

(43:14):
And I've had that like, so like for yeah, basically all my life.
And I was like that feeling I wanted to bring into the show as
well-being like, what's she doing here?
How does who is she to speak about our game?
I wanted to really sort of stickit to anyone who's ever said

(43:37):
that or like made me feel like that.
It's been a bit of A2 fingers that moment really.
But yeah, that, that was definitely, definitely an
influence. I'm looking at what I wrote down
to see what I've forgotten. Probably lots of it.
But I think it's also a wanting to tell like a story, like

(43:59):
wanting the audience to see a footballer who they can like,
relate to as well. In a way it's like I didn't
because there's, there's been some amazing shows about like
charting the, the generation, like the lost generation, the
generation who are banned, charting the like how the like
the influences and how when women's football started again

(44:21):
and all these incredible plays about it was called Offside I
think. And it was like, it was like a
group of about 5 or 6 actors andthey played female footballers
in like different eras and it was amazing.
And doesn't see a lot of this when it's all based on like true
events. I wanted to write one about
where it was. Obviously it's a fictional,

(44:42):
fictional player man who's not ahousehold name, who likes a rum
and coke and dancing to Destiny's Child and who argues
with her boyfriend and does all the stuff that I imagine lots of
my audience members also do. And they could be like, oh, OK.
Like it's obviously you have your Linus's, you have your your

(45:03):
household names, your other teens, your series shows, but
you also have your where every few of those, you have hundreds
of women who were just out playing the sport they love.
And I wanted to really bring theaudience into that world.
That's really cool. Nice.
It's, it's, it's really nice to see the, the women's game

(45:24):
growing as well. There's a team in Glasgow who
quite a lot of my friends in theSouth Side and it's called, I
think they're called Cafkin Blazers and it's mad.
I think there's like 400 of themthere and it's, you know, it's
great. That's incredible.
You know what's really interesting?
So we were talking a little bit dyspraxia.
I would never feel comfortable as a guy go and join in like a
local men's team because it's just too competitive and I know

(45:46):
myself. So I can't even depart from
without being like, I want to get like a really good time in
that. And it's quite toxic.
I think it's more of a male thing sometimes, not to
generalize. No, I do know what you mean.
I do know what you mean and I can, I maybe maybe it is more of
a bloke thing, but I do, I do understand what you mean.
I think I'm just like, well, I know I'm not going into this.

(46:07):
Like like I said before, while ISumani's goalkeeper and she
talks about how when she was a kid and like she was like, I was
a chubby girl who couldn't run, but I was the best option.
Well, the only option And like that was me as a child.
Like that was literally me. Like I there's a sticker and go
is fine. And like, that was how and like

(46:29):
through this practice, you think, Oh my God, that's a
nightmare. But it's surprisingly like was
kind of one of the things that Iwas like, OK, like I also think
as well, I'm definitely not. Don't come to this if you're
expecting like flicks and tricksbecause that's not what I do.
No, I wish I do reference that film.

(46:51):
I do love that film. That film as well.
Also an inspiration. I I think another important
question to ask is for the people listening is tell us a
little about how you've got thisshow to the friends.
Is your first proper tool to show the friends rather than it?
Yes. First show at the Fringe.
First show they show it's yeah, it's it's, it's not for the

(47:14):
faint hearted, as I'm sure everyone listening will, will
know. And I have been incredibly lucky
with. So I work with amazing people
who are also all creatives and all actors who obviously is
great to just be in a really understanding environment, but
also have like given me like great ideas for like things I

(47:36):
can do in ways that I could raise money, for example.
So I did a just a sort of kick about fundraiser where I bought
a bunch of like cans of like Guinness and cider and beer and
I was like just Chuck them in like an icebox.
I baked and I just sort of triedand was like come down to the

(47:59):
park, play some football. And you we can like just if you
buy like beers or like I think you did brownies and blondies.
Bit of a weird combination. But hey.
And then and I, I managed to raise because as again, I have
lovely friends and they've givenme like these ideas.
I've managed to raise like £250 just off doing that.

(48:19):
And then that then it meant thatwe could do a work in progress
run at the Lighting Unicorn Theatre in Kennish Town, which
is in, I mean, it's really closeto where I grew up.
And so that was kind of nice to sort of go back back there.
And that meant that we could, wecould do that.

(48:40):
And we then got in, it was just friends and family.
But then we got in audience and they were like, oh, OK, no,
this. And we got there, we gave them
feedback, feedback forms to do, which was because the show was
only half an hour at that point.And I was like, I know it needs
to be longer. I know there's more stuff to
say. What could that stuff be?

(49:00):
And so I think asking for askingmy people's like not being
scared to ask for people, people's help is definitely a
big old learning curve for me because I'm a bit of a
perfectionist. I'm like, no, I have to do this
and I have to do this and it hasto be done right.
And you can't really do that when you're creating something
because it's all of it's, it's all of your work and all of your

(49:22):
ideas. And then from that work in
progress show so well, I mean, just going back quickly, I just
have sat and wrote when I had time off, I would just sit and
write drafts and just like pour them out and just think, OK,
well, first draft, I think I said earlier, the first draft of
anything that you write is always going to be shit.
Give yourself that permission tobe shit.

(49:43):
And you don't have to show that draft to anyone.
Just don't get it right, Get it written.
That was what one of my old teachers used to say at school,
and he was a bit of a legend. And that's always stuck in my
brain. Don't get it right, get it
written. Then when that was written, you
can then write your second draftand that'll probably be a bit
better because you'll think, OK,well, I was all about getting
the words on the page. There's probably a little bit of

(50:03):
a better way we can say that. Maybe there's a way that's a
little bit more subtle, little bit more subtext, a little bit
less exposition. Me that's not a word, but you
know what I mean. And then maybe that's the draft
you can send out to people. So I think I, I like just bashed
through those until I had maybe about sort of 1010 minutes.
Then I submitted it to scratch Knights and then I was like, OK,

(50:25):
maybe I've got something to workwith here.
And that's actually How I Met mydirector Maddie.
I submitted a like very, very early draft of like a little 10
minute section of Lioness, whichis, I'm not sure how much of it
is still in it. This was, this is going back to
this September 2023. So we're going back nearly two
years and she the she had applied and been like, I'm a

(50:50):
director and I need someone to direct.
I was like, I'm an actor and a writer.
I need a director and the peopleorganising the scratch and I
sort of put us together. I can sort of act creative.
Tinder I it was great. And then since then, since then,
she's she's been on board and she's fabulous.
And it was definitely taken a long old time to get there.

(51:11):
And then after my work in progress is this is like start
of this year and then took all those moments on board.
I went and sat in like February half term when I wasn't
teaching, I went and I sat in the National Theatre because you
can sit there and write for freeif you get there early enough,
Something I didn't know until somebody told me.
And I went and sat there and I was just like, I'm just going to

(51:33):
bash out like a full length draft of this.
And again, just send it to, I tried to not send it to always
the same people, but send it's like a couple of people here and
there and think, OK, like, do you like, what do you think
about this? This is now I'm probably running
at a decent enough time. Like what do you reckon?
And then knowing that I should could do that.

(51:54):
And I also did a Kickstarter campaign as well and just like
banged on people's doors metaphorically and been like,
we're doing this. Like if you could just Chuck us
a couple of quid, that'd be great.
Like no stress because money's really tight for lots of people
right now. And I use the work in progress
shows to kind of put that like bring that out as well.

(52:16):
So I should have tried, I tried to give myself a bit of a like
strategy to follow, but I was really lucky that so many people
were so generous. And like I said, really grateful
for that because it's so expensive and it's so
inaccessible for so many because.
It shouldn't really take two years.

(52:38):
Well, it shouldn't really take two years to even get to the
position where you can even takea show there for even if you
wanted to do like 2 week run at the front and you're going to
have to, as you say, take up to two years to get yourself in
that position. Yeah.
How are you feeling sort of two weeks out if you're comfortable?
Now you're asking, I'm excited. I'm I'm scared, obviously.

(53:00):
But I always tell my my kids whoI teach like drama and
performing arts and I teach at Stagecoach.
I love that. And it's like after school clubs
and things like like performing arts, drama, it's amazing.
I love it. And loads of time on show day,
the kids can't spend them. I'm really nervous.
I'm really nervous. So I'm like, it's OK, It's
normal to be nervous. And I say I'm big and I still

(53:23):
get nervous and nerves are just excitement just dressed up
wrong. Like they're just, it's the
same. I was like, it's the same part.
I feel great. And normally they're like, OK,
And then but then some of the older ones ask me more questions
about that. And I'm like, no, don't ask me
about science. That's all I know.
But I think I've been, I've got a couple of previews this
weekend here at home in London and I'm I, which I again was

(53:49):
lucky enough to do because I have a mate of mine.
Well, my best mate who's also myproducer has worked at the Canal
Cafe Theatre in northwest London, which is a brilliant
space. And they do a really reasonable
rate for hire for theatre hire. So I didn't know about that.
She did a show there. She told me about that.

(54:10):
And I was like, great, let's tryand sort of like, let's try and
work something out there. And, and I think once those two
shows are done, so I've got kindof tunnel vision on those shows,
but then I'll finish those showsand then I go up in like over a
week after that. So I need to kind of remember
that. Remember like the end goal.

(54:30):
So it's a big mix of excitement,nerves, and also just, yeah,
definitely feeling like I'm on the sort of precipice, like I'm
about to jump off and I know theparachutes there and I know that
it's there and I know it's fine.And like, also, like I mentioned
before that my sister's a nurse.She does incredible, incredible

(54:54):
work looking after people who are really, really poorly.
I just stick about on stage. Like literally, that's kind of
it. I think, like, what's the worst
that can happen? Maybe I forget my lines when
shown. Is anyone going to die?
No, like I do try and remind myself of that.
And like when me and my sister have lived together in the in

(55:15):
like in the past and I'm like, she's I'm sure how's your day?
And I'm like, Oh well, like I had like this, it's like
something's like this review or like this went wrong or
something. And I'm like, how was yours?
And she's like, yeah, so like someone died and awarded and I'm
like, OK, we perspective, perspective scheme.
And of course, but of course, it's still, it's natural to

(55:35):
care. Of course, if you didn't care,
you're in the wrong job. Like it's, you want people to
enjoy it. You want people to lead and go.
That was class. Like you want people to be, you
want to buy Also, I want to givepeople like a good night out.
Well, my show's at 12:40. So it's not a good night out.
It's at it's 12:40 in the afternoon, not in the evening.

(55:56):
But I want to give people a goodtime.
I think remembering, rememberingmy why, like I wanted to go out
there, tell the story, entertainpeople and hopefully make people
go and support their local women's team.
Fingers crossed. And but I think remembering that
is has been important to me as we get to the, the build up

(56:17):
because as like we're almost there now.
And I'm a bit like, I'm thinkingnow, remember why you did this.
Yeah, that's good. I've only got a few more
questions because I know a team were nearly an hour, which might
the time always flies back. Obviously we're just talking
about preparing for the show, but how do you sort of protect

(56:37):
your mental health work and in the creative industries, which
is a bit mad. Yeah, it's definitely as I said
before, it's it's not, it's not a job for the for the faint
analysis just in terms of the just logistical juggling that we
will have to do whether it's so you're the minute I'm working
shifts with the events company that I work for and I'm also up

(57:00):
until Monday, I was also teaching.
I've also been doing like littlebits of press, but Linus, which
has been incredible and also rehearsing and also making sure
all the sets ordered and the techs happy and all of this.
So it's it's not for the faint hearted.
So I think something that I do when I know that I'm in a bit
of, I kind of know I'm coming upto a really mad time.

(57:23):
Like I think of my life in seasons.
I'm like, this is like a Sprint season.
You'll have a rest season, but this is a Sprint season.
I try and make myself as much asI can, stick to a routine.
I try and like, OK, I'm a big ToDo List person.
I like writing things down and crossing them off from old
school like that. And I think going like getting
up in the morning, doing like a minute of like just meditating.

(57:46):
Once you're meditating, I literally mean going on
headspace and doing the one minute of breathing.
Like even just doing that helps just like writing down like one
thing that you're grateful for in the morning.
It sounds so wanky, I know, but it genuinely does make a
difference. Then like trying to go to the
gym when you can, trying to eat right, like just doing like

(58:09):
little things. Like in the morning, I try and
do sort of those few things and then I know like, right, OK,
I've set myself up for the day. What is like, what do I need to
do? And then also I spoke a little
bit about like opinions and people's opinions online.
I know some like obviously in Edinburgh and whenever you do a

(58:30):
show really, especially in Edinburgh, it's so easy to get
hung up on reviews and reviewersand, or how many stars did you
get? And oh, I only got X amount and
feeling really bad about yourself because of a review.
And that's so normal and so natural.
And I've definitely felt that before 100%.

(58:50):
But I also am trying to remind myself this is a public service
announcement to myself, to future me in a couple of weeks.
A review is just somebody's opinion.
That's all it is. And obviously, like, if they're
coming to your show, then they they're on your side.
Like they want you to, they wantto, they want to be entertained,
they want you to do a good job because they don't want to have

(59:11):
come and sat in a show that theydidn't like.
Like, because no one chooses to go to watch things that they
don't enjoy. So I guess it's like not being
scared of reviews and reviewers and also ultimately remembering
that at the end of the day, opinions are opinions and how
boring would it be if we all liked the same things?

(59:32):
Now for sure, and also it's about thinking about like taking
a show to the fringes and itselfis actually an achievement.
So it's not just about like hey,the show goes is also about what
did I do compared to. So I think it's part of that as
well, which is really tricky to do for sure.
I've got I've got two more questions for you, One of them

(59:53):
bringing a question back from the old days of the show.
But what is the worst quote parttime job you'd ever had to work?
Obviously the name of the show is Jessica a real job?
Has there been a real job you'vehad to do over the years that's
been a bit shit? I really love that you've
brought this question back. So I saw that and I was like,
oh, getting because I've done pretty much everything pretty
like you name it, I've probably done it.

(01:00:15):
I've waitress, I've bartended, I've done proofreading and
editing for like small businesses.
I did kids parties when I was drama school.
I was a Christmas elf. That's actually where I met my
best mate Zoe, who now produces for me.
I met her working at Westwood Stratford in 2019.

(01:00:36):
And actually because I met her, that was actually surprisingly
great. I actually had a pretty good
time there and I just worked. I worked at a bar girl at
October, London's Oktoberfest and nearly got arrested because
you can't fly her in Canary Wharf because it's private
property. I didn't know that.
And then they were like, well, if you carry on flying, we're
going to arrest you. And I was like, this is not
worth the £11.00 an hour that I'm being paid.

(01:00:58):
I'm going to go. I'm to leave now.
But I think probably the worst one.
I'm lucky now that I teach and Ilove teaching and but I think
when I was before I did that andI was when I was at drama
school, I did kids parties on the weekends and I was well,
well paid for the hours that I did it.

(01:01:18):
I earned more there than I did if I was just working behind the
bar. But when you're standing in a
Princess Elsa costume singing Let It Go for the third time in
a weekend and the wig is sticking to you because you're
sweating because it's hot and parents are like making
ridiculous demands of you. I you do kind of reassess your

(01:01:39):
life a little bit like I had I was filling up my filling up my
water bottle. I was I did this just done this
part in this really expensive house, filling up my water
bottle. And then at the ugly where we
finished, we were about to go and the the dad like grabs my
bottle and like music. No, no, no, you use that sink.
And I was like, what? OK, sure, fine, whatever.

(01:02:03):
I was like, I didn't think the same for me.
I was like, cool, fine, I and then I realized I had been using
the like filter water and he waslike, he basically was like that
water's not for you. Like you use the the peasant
water, which I prefer being Londoner because our water
tastes different to everywhere else.
Like you got to go to like somewhere where it's like like
Scotland where it's all fresh. I'm like, no, I want my water to

(01:02:25):
taste like chemicals. London water is horrific.
Apart from the people, not. The London water though,
generally water like and even like there's this sort of rank
within Scotland because even when I'm from like Glenrothes at
the water just tastes a little bit nicer than Glasgow water.
But like Scottish Water in general, it's just like, I don't

(01:02:47):
think something surely coming toEdin was a treat like.
Oh wow, now we're bringing bringing bottles of London water
with me mate, no. Scottish Water in London anyway,
all the bottled water is Scottish.
That's there's a reason. True, but I think that was, that
was definitely a moment that or when I was waitressing once and

(01:03:08):
I was used to waitress at weddings and we worked at this
ridiculously, ridiculously expensive wedding at the
Dorchester Hotel and I was they literally didn't have anything
for us to do apart from hold candles.
That's why I stood and held a tray of really, really heavy
candles. Just wild guests was like

(01:03:29):
walking through. I was basically paid to be a
table, Jamie. I was.
That's what I was getting paid to do.
And I was like, I don't think Olivia Coleman was ever paid to
be a table, but maybe she was. Maybe she was nice.
People love this question though, so it's a good.
I'm glad just to bring it back. And then I love it.
Yeah, it's a great one. It's also just a reminder of how

(01:03:50):
fucking resilient we all are as a group.
Because we will go, we will do these mad crazy jobs.
Like at the minute I'm working at a fair with my event, the
events company that I work for, which I love.
Like it's really good fun. The people are great.
And but like people obviously sometimes they're attracting
that. So what do you like do when
you're not here? And they're like, I'm like,

(01:04:10):
they're like, oh, OK, yeah, thatmakes sense.
It is a funny question as well because not I'm not going to
name names and they still were good guests and stuff, but it is
an interesting revelation of your class sometimes or your
sort of background you're from because I have it.
If you guys serve like I've not really had to work a job
outside, like, you know, really wow.

(01:04:33):
And then they don't have an answer for it, which you know
not to some people. But it's an interesting,
interesting dynamic and it's like, well, I mean, like, I, I
think I was just when I was 18, I was like, I'm going to go out
and earn my own money. Like I'm not I'm, I, I want to
go. And I, I mean, I, it was, it was

(01:04:53):
when I was at Union, I was like,well, I'm, I'm wait, I'm just
going to go and like waitress inthe holidays.
And I was lucky enough that I like had some money for my
parents. Like that kept me when I was in
like term time. I was like, well, when I come
back, I'm not doing anything apart from going out and getting
pissed. So I can just do that every
other night and go to work on the nights that I'm not doing
that. And I was like, even if it's

(01:05:14):
just a little bit of little bit of pin money, it's better than
nothing because otherwise I'd just be like not doing anything
worthwhile. So you might as well do there
that's. Right.
A lot of people who work in the arts like in the way you do
where you're being more creative, like and put on shows

(01:05:35):
and stuff, unfortunately do haveto work other jobs to pay the
bills. And it's even mad the amount of
bands or artists have had on whohave to take jobs and stuff as
well. Like we had the front man of
father son. They're quite a big band, like
they've done made four albums. They're quite well known in
Scotland, particularly like, youknow, Ross, who I know a little
bit. He's a he's a good dad, lives

(01:05:55):
quite nearby, like Ross Lane. He's still like works like other
jobs on top of being in quite a on paper successful band.
So there's no shame at all and. Yeah, it's always the musicians
that you've had on. I always find that really
interesting because in my head Ialways think like, Oh well, like
musicians like obviously like you're gigging all the time.
Like you're you're doing shows like that's your currency.

(01:06:16):
Like if you've got this and thenand my like someone who I know
who's in a band we were chattingabout and like streaming and how
that obviously they get basically nothing from that and.
Are you paying the year and thatis mad?
Yeah. And it's it's obviously like
back in the day, like, I mean, Idon't know when when you were a

(01:06:39):
kid did we were excited to go down like HMV and buy like
physical CDs. Like I loved doing that.
And like now it's just not the culture that we live in.
But obviously they bands were paid better through through
things like CD sales, like it was, it was a it was a better
time for for them to make money.So yeah, it's, it's, it's always
interesting hearing that it's not just actors or writers or

(01:07:02):
like, like yourself, like make scripts like it's, it's creators
in general. I think all of us are just
wearing all of the hats. We will take over the world.
No, definitely hope so. So that the sort of closing
question for you then, Kate, what is your closing advice to
anyone else listening to the podcast tonight?

(01:07:24):
Like if if anyone was wanted to do what you do or take short of
the fringe, etcetera, what wouldyou advice to them?
I would say bang on that door asmuch as you can.
Be persistent as fuck until someone either tells you to go
away or opens it for you. And if the door doesn't exist,

(01:07:48):
try and build it yourself. I think that is, I just get
persistent, get loud, like I'm, I'm the youngest in the big
family and I'm from North London, in case I haven't
mentioned. So that is I, I sort of have
that in my genes. And I know that doesn't come
naturally to a lot of people. And it's be awkward and

(01:08:10):
embarrassing being like, oh, like, would you mind looking at
this? Or would you like, would it be
OK if I just did that? It's and, but it's, it's OK to
do that because more often than not, I have found people want to
help like people if they're in aposition to if also like even if
it's someone that you maybe thatyou work with or that you like

(01:08:30):
don't really know super well, but you really like their
opinions on something like film or TV or theatre and you've
written something and you're like, you're not quite good at
friends enough with them to ask them.
Just ask him. Just drop my message.
The worst thing they can say is no.
And then that's the world is like not going to end.
Like it's OK. But more often than not people
were like, yeah, I'll read that draft for you.

(01:08:50):
Or like my like my mum, like bless her, like she, she needs
royalties to at this point to behonest, because she will send
like my like she sent my like Kickstarter link to one of her
friends. And then one of her friends sent
me like 250 lbs and I was like, that's so generous.
Like that's so kind like I was like that's I, I didn't expect

(01:09:11):
that whatsoever, but it's like people who want to help or who
in the position position to help, whether it's like like
creative help or financial help or whatever, all just asking
somebody a question. People who can help normally
want to So you don't ask, you don't get.

(01:09:32):
That very true. And I think the thing I've
learned a lot is you can be as talented as is anything, right?
But if somebody's going to work,you're.
If somebody's not as afraid to go and make things happen, then
they'll probably get further than you.
Yeah, absolutely. Like I remember someone saying
to me once like hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work

(01:09:56):
hard like I thought. So again, is always stuck with
me. Like there was like, I know,
like I, there was so many peopleat my drama school who were
incredible and won all the prizes for like comedy or
Shakespeare or like all that just, and they were, they were
great. But then and I on stage, like
they'd be amazing. But then I'd be in the pub with

(01:10:18):
them and they'd be like, Oh yeah, well, I only learned my
lines like last night. And I'd be like how you, you're
so annoying. You learn lines and then you
just go on stage and you do something incredible.
But that doesn't, that's not sustainable when you're actually
in the industry, when you're actually working and you're not
in the likes bubble of training,I think.
That's why I actually hate the phrase.

(01:10:39):
The cream always rises to the top because I think it's
actually the shade. It's bollocks, it's absolute
bollocks. Like no, it and, and something
that I would counteract that with, which is another phrase
that I really like, God, I soundlike a fucking self help book,
is that it takes 10 years to become an overnight success.
And we spoke, I think a little bit about dairy girls earlier.

(01:11:01):
That was a big influence on my writing because I think it's a
fucking hilarious show and I love what they're about.
And there's definitely the, the like fierce feminism in, in my
own writing. But those, those women they
crafted for decades before they made Derry girls.
And then they made Derry girls. And then they were over

(01:11:23):
overnight superstars. But they were like, I remember
reading an interview with Jamie Lee O'Donnell where she, she
actually also worked in a grotto.
So maybe there's maybe there's hope for us all.
But she, she was like working inlike a newsagents when she
auditioned for Derry Girls. I think like she was doing,
obviously she was doing what we all do.

(01:11:43):
She was passing and she was likemaking stuff.
She was auditioning for things, but she was working normal jobs.
And they did that for yeah, theydid that for decades.
And then it just kind of fell into place for them.
And that is obviously incredible.
But people are like, Oh well, they were just like plucked out.
Like, no, they put the hours in before.

(01:12:04):
And that really shows. Not for sure, Kate.
It's been an absolute pleasure having me on the podcast.
Thank you very much for your time.
It's so. Great to chat to you.
Thank you so much for letting me.
Come out, it's a pleasure. I just want to as well flag that
links to your show and and your company stuff below the podcast

(01:12:26):
so to click there and can find them there.
But where can people find the show quickly?
Tell us if you want. To just say we are in Edinburgh,
we are at Greenside St. we're atGreenside Riddles Court, Clover
Studios at 12:40 from the 1st tothe 23rd of August, not the 10th
or the 17th. You can find.

(01:12:46):
I'll put the link, I'll send youthe link JV for a ticket.
You can find us on Instagram at Major Lookprods, where all info
for the show is is going up. That's my the company that I
started after drama school, which is an all female new
writing company after Fringe. We will be hopefully doing some

(01:13:06):
other projects as well. Lying attitude, but there's some
other little work with bits and pieces.
I want to I want to hear from myfemale new writers and ideas and
everything. So yeah, yeah, get drop me a
follow if you fancy it and come and see my show.
It's great. Thank you for your time.
Thank you SO. Much, Jamie.
Pleasure.

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Ep. 174 - 'Football, Fringe Dreams & Finding Your Voice' with Kate Coulson

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 174 - 'Football, Fringe Dreams & Finding Your Voice' with Kate Coulson