Ep. 177 - ‘What’s It Really Like to Be a BBC Commissioner?’ with Nick Lambon - Just Get A Real Job

Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Hello, I am Jamie McKinley and you are listening to another
episode of Just Get a Real Job. Thank you, as always, for tuning
into the podcast. I'm absolutely thrilled to
welcome on the show this week Commissioner from the BBC, Nick
Lambon, who is also a friend of mine.
I had the pleasure of working with Nick back when he was a
producer and very early on in mycareer when I was an assistant

(00:27):
script editor on a drama called Screw.
We worked in the second series together and we'd never had a
commissioner on from the BBC, SoI really appreciate Nick making
the time to come and chat to us.It's a really interesting
episode. I think particularly if you want
to have a career in TV or if you're interested in the sort of
behind the scenes of how drama and things like that all
operates and you're really goingto enjoy this episode.

(00:47):
It was an absolute pleasure having Nick on the show.
Finally, Nick has worked on someamazing big shows as well.
He he was a script editor on Doctor Who for many years and
Nick has also worked on things like Blue Lights and Silent
Witness. So it was an absolute pleasure
to have Nick on the show and I really hope you enjoy it.
This week's episode. Be sure as well, if you're
watching us on YouTube, please subscribe, please share.

(01:08):
We'll try to really grow the YouTube channel and on the
general podcast feed as well. If you're listening on Spotify
or whatever you do, please be sure to like and share with
anyone you think you might enjoy.
We're really trying to keep growing the podcast and find new
listeners. But anyway, thank you as always
for listening and hope you enjoythis week's episode.
Nick Lambon, Hey, how you doing?Thank you very much for coming

(01:31):
on. Just get a real job.
It's a pleasure to have you on the podcast there.
Are you a? Pleasure to be here, how are
you? I'm good, Nick, we work together
on the screw. You produced the show many years
ago. It's kind of a bit weird having
you on the podcast, but just forthe listeners for context year
and a commissioning editor at the BBC now, we've never had one
of them on the podcast before. So it's kind of cool to have you

(01:53):
on it being interesting to chat to you about the role because
you know, you're a commissioner.It's it's a big deal.
I guess it is a big deal. It's a bit strange.
I didn't plan it, but it is a really great job and there's a
lot of myths about what commissioners do, so maybe we
should talk about some of those.I don't know.
Yeah, it's also just very this is something I used to joke to
you about on screw that. I would one day have you on the

(02:14):
podcast and there was actually half a double this this is a bit
quite feel real. It's but.
I've been avoiding you from I'vebeen avoiding you for quite some
time, so you know that you finally pinned me down.
Yeah, I haven't returned to Scotland.
So I've, you know, we take what we can get, you know, B million.
Not to commentary on the time onScrew Honest.

(02:35):
Or we'll maybe talk about that alittle bit tonight as well.
But I suppose just to start off like you were touching on what
myths are around what commissioners actually do.
But do you want to kind of tell is if people listening often we
do have listeners that don't have a clue about our industry.
And I think a lot of people thatwill do my job know all about
commissioners, but I don't even the average person really does.
So any sort of layman's terms, could you explain what a

(02:56):
commissioner is? No one needs to understand what
a commissioner does really. But I'm a commissioner for the
BBC. I think it's always slightly
different at different broadcasters, but the BBC, it
sort of falls into two categories really.
The first is obviously commissioning, finding,
developing, putting forward new programming, new shows, new

(03:17):
scripted developments that we can take forward.
And that takes up obviously a lot of time and that involves
meeting a lot of people and hearing a lot of pitches.
And then the other half of the job, but it never quite evenly
matches out over any given week or day, is looking after shows
that are already in production, that have already been green lit
and commissioned. And that's about making sure

(03:39):
that everybody is doing what thechannel expects and wants from
those programmes. Being involved in the editorial,
maybe you'll be involved in the casting, helping to choose Hods
and then in the edit all the waythrough post, all the way to the
marketing of the show and how itgoes out to make sure gets
properly represented on whichever BBC output it's going

(03:59):
to be broadcast with. What do you think some of the
main myths around your job are, especially some working for
someone like the BBC? Because obviously, like, there's
a lot of cliches about the BBC as a company as well.
There's absolute confusion aboutwhat on earth commissioners are
doing. They must be sitting with very
little to do and they never seemto Commission any new programmes

(04:20):
at all. And they always say there's a
clash with another programme andthat's why they can't possibly
make it and they must be making it up.
Are they reading it at all? The answer to all of that is,
yeah, we are reading absolutely everything.
When the BBC gets, I think it's the actually in the thousands of
submissions of new programmes every single year.
And not just me, obviously, thatwould be crazy.

(04:42):
But a team of us are reading absolutely every single pitch
and script and idea and meeting with as many writers and
producers as we possibly, possibly can.
And we're trying to sort of pitch back to the industry what
it is we want and we need. Because inevitably the
superpower of the BBC is that itmakes a lot of stuff.

(05:02):
The scary thing about the BBC isit makes a lot of stuff.
And So what that means is we have to help people kind of
navigate, you know, I'm making at the moment, a lot of crime
dramas or thrillers or whatever the genre is.
Or Lindsay, my boss, as the headof drama is saying, you know
what I'd really love, I'd reallylove a show set on the moon or
whatever it is. And then we're trying to

(05:25):
communicate that to the rest of the industry without being too
sort of, you know, development takes a really long time.
We all know that. And So what you don't want to be
doing is changing that narrativeevery single week and going
actually, we'd like something set on the moon.
No, we wouldn't. We'd like a cop drama.
No, we wouldn't. We'd like it to be set on Mars.
If you do that all the time, no one can develop in that climate.

(05:45):
You're trying to set the trends and and the general direction of
where it is we want BBC drama togo over the next couple of
years. And then it's up to other people
much cleverer than me to bring me fantastic ideas that I can
get really excited about and then hopefully redevelop them
from there. There's quite a lot of, there's
a lot of cogs to the job as well.
Do you think often people think you have way more power than you

(06:08):
do as a commissioner? Do you think people sometimes
make out as if commissioners decide absolutely everything?
It's actually very complicated. There's a huge system in place
and lots of voices and yeah. Oh yeah, it's completely, I
mean, look at people who've seenW1A will know that the BBC is
not a straightforward organisation to work for.
So there's some of that kicking in.
But also I think that it's not my job to dictate what the show

(06:32):
should be. It's actually the most useful
commissioning that I found when I was on the other side and when
I was a producer and a script editor.
And what I find now is it's actually for me when, when
you're making a show, when you're on the production side,
you are in the weeds of it. You are completely, you know,
every single thing there is to know about that show.
And sometimes that can make you a bit blind to what's working

(06:55):
and what's not working and what's clear and not clear.
I think it's really important that commissioners are closer to
the audience sometimes, and theyare to all the people in the
production so that you can, the best note you can possibly give,
I think as a commissioner is to stay, just so you know, that's a
really good idea, but that's notclear on the page to me who
isn't talking about it. 24 hoursa day, 7 days a week, like

(07:17):
everyone in production is. And I think that's where you're
useful. You're not there to dictate.
This is what you should write next.
This is what you should do. It's a very different discipline
editorially, I think, to being on the production side, which I
used to do before. No, it's already interest,
though. I kind of want to go into the
way you got to the job you're innow because it'd be interesting

(07:37):
to talk about. I mean, you've worked on loads
of shows and click, you know, you scripted it on shows like
Doctor Who. So I think it'd be really useful
and interesting for some listeners to ask you more about
that. But go further back.
Were you always interested in sort of having a creative career
or did it sort of come like later in life?
That's a really good question which I do think about sometimes

(07:58):
and kind of go did I sit down and go I want to be a script
editor? No, because I didn't really know
what that was. I didn't really know what jobs
were available. I guess what I would say is I
was always really, really interested.
Looking back, I realised on how shows were put together, how
they were made. Anything behind the scenes,

(08:20):
anything about writing. I mean, I think probably the
first scripted stuff I actually engaged with was comedy and I
became really fascinated by whathad the great sitcoms of kind
of, you know, the night 80s, nineties, like how all those
shows were put together, what was making them funny, what was
making my mom and dad laugh. I guess it's probably where it

(08:40):
started. I'm being really interested in
how those are put together. And it was later on when I was a
teenager when I was watching those really geeky shows that
went out 6:00 on BBC Two, you know, the Star Treks, the
Buffy's, the strange shows that they would experiment with from
America in that slot. That's when I was really
starting to become obsessive about certain television

(09:03):
programmes and having to keep upwith series and all of that
stuff. And that's where I started
thinking about, hey, this is a really great job.
But other than writer, I didn't really.
And I knew what that was. I didn't really know.
I just assumed people wrote it and then it went on screen,
which is absolutely ridiculous, isn't it?
It would be two people involved.But like that is sort of the gap

(09:23):
in knowledge was quite high. It was only later on that I sort
of worked out that these jobs existed.
That was, I mean, actually Doctor Who was quite influential
in that because they've always had a lot of behind the scenes
material around that show. And so there's always been a way
of learning the different roles that were that were out there
and that sort of engaged me, I guess.
Yeah. No, I think it's most script

(09:44):
that it is that I meet. And then we talked about this
before because obviously, you know, as you said, you a lot of
your earlier career you were scripted as well, but no one
knows what that job is because when you growing up, as you say,
well, the behind the scene stuffis always you, a writer and a
director is, but apart from that, you don't really
understand what the other rules are.
So I think a lot of script that is discover it.

(10:05):
I think that's. Right.
Yeah, I think that's right. I think that script editing is
the problem is, and this is right, but also it's difficult.
No one ever said, gosh, that wasextremely well script edited.
What they say is it was really well written.
It was really well directed. And so, and there's loads of
jobs like that. It's not just script editing.
It's, you know, I think how manyhundreds of people it takes to

(10:26):
make like 5 minutes of footage on one of these big shows.
And even when I got the job as script editor, I used to walk
around sets going on earth. Are all these people doing?
I mean, how are you supposed to know that?
Like, you know, a lot of it's quite technical.
And from my point of view, some of it is a bit dull.
Like, you know, that's the scarything about being on sets is
that you're sort of like, wow, it takes ever such a long time

(10:48):
to shoot such a tiny amount of material.
So yeah, I, I don't blame anyonewho goes, gosh, I'd really love
to be involved in this, but I don't really understand how to
get started or where I should begoing or what even the right job
to apply for is. If it's even out there, you
know, that's really hard. No completely, I think the
surprise of things is is workingin TV can be really interesting

(11:11):
in some ways, but often it is actually really maintain the
filming. Spider Man in Glasgow just now
and when I was walking to my commute this morning, like
there's like a crowd of people stood watching it, but there's
enough that literally filming like a car moving and it
probably took all day to move a car.
Like, I mean, it's probably a bad example because I feel that
probably slightly more interest and then the average day on

(11:31):
Silent Witness or whatever show it might be.
But yeah, I don't know, I've made.
I've had some very boring days on set.
That's the thing. Everyone thinks it's really
glamorous. When I talk to my friends about
it, they always assume that theywant to know who are the famous
people I've met and what are thereally exciting things that I'm
doing. And usually, especially in
production, you're up at 6:00 AMand you're sitting in a freezing

(11:52):
cold warehouse and you're havinga cry over the fact that you
don't really know what you're shooting this afternoon.
I mean, that is sort of there's nothing exciting.
It's freezing. It's like a mad person because
it's so cold and you haven't eaten anything and you but you
have had six cups of coffee. So you look a bit crazy.
Like, I mean, you know, that is,that's the reality of making

(12:13):
these shows and it's brilliant and it's really exhilarating and
it's quite addictive. That's the that's the other
problem with the job, I think, is that the reason sometimes
people feel like they've been taken advantage of is that they
take advantage of the fact that you love it and that you really,
really enjoy it and that there'snothing else like doing these
jobs. And but that can be really

(12:34):
challenging as well, especially when you do it and then you
don't work for a bit trying to recreate that feeling.
That's really hard, I think. I think also sometimes that
makes people put up with maybe behaviour or conditions that
they wouldn't otherwise accept, like long hours or whatever it
might be. I mean, talking about cold
warehouses. And it just kind of brings me

(12:54):
back to, you know, working on a show like screw with you for six
months. That was off most of what a lot
of experience was like. It's very cold and a lot of long
days. They never shoot things in.
You see glamorous occasions on screen.
But so much of studio space. And like when I did Silent
Witness, it was in, it was in this sort of strange industrial

(13:15):
estate near West Acton by a dodgy alleyway near the railway
line. And there were mice and it was
like an old no one else wanted to go there.
There wasn't enough space for everyone.
It was it was a very, very strange complex to be shooting a
show in. But that's where the main sets
were. And like you say, on Screw, we
were in the Kelvin Hall. And I, I mean, you know, I'm

(13:36):
spoiler alert, I'm not from Scotland.
It was -9 in the day when we shot some of the scenes on
Screw, I, I, I had to walk about10 minutes to the set on some of
the days. And I thought, no, I'm sorry, I
can't make it. What am I going to do?
It was so cold. But yeah, the secret is to not
let any of that show to those people who are watching the

(13:56):
programme. They shouldn't, that lots of
people don't care and they shouldn't have to.
They should be able to tune intotheir favourite show and just
enjoy it and get taken somewhereelse.
And they shouldn't know that howhard we worked.
That's that's the so make it look like we're the elegant
swan, no matter how hard we're kicking underneath, isn't it?
That's all. That's what all these television
jobs are. That's again why it's so
challenging to go. What did you ever want to do

(14:17):
this job or what job do you wantto do?
Because so many jobs in television are about making sure
you're not noticed that people don't know that you did your
job. People talk about costumes or
they talk about set design or scripts often when they note
something they didn't to like. And that's not what you want.
That's not what you want people to be.
That's an interesting observation.

(14:39):
I also want to ask like, I suppose an interesting thing on
from that is like what was your sort of first step into TV?
Like how did you get into the working in it at first?
It's absolutely mad, like it's not a conventional way at all.
I became a publicity assistant for a now completely defunct
went bankrupt distribution business.

(15:00):
So they were to explain what that was.
Basically they distributed the rights to other people's shows
across the world. They sold them so that those
territories could show those programmes.
And it was just a job that, you know, I needed a job after uni
and it paid extortionately badly.
And actually I got a lot from that job because again, I'll

(15:23):
emphasise they were eventually went bankrupt.
This company decided that they wanted to help Co fund new
productions that they could sellon and through That experience,
which didn't go very well for them, was brilliant for me
because I got to meet script editors and producers and people
who were coming in and out of the company who were interested

(15:44):
in making different shows. And that was my first experience
of seeing people in the kind of jobs that I suddenly realised I
was quite interested in and was quite keen to do and know more
about. So I started there and I was
there for a year or two learning.
And then I went to Holby City towork in the story department

(16:06):
there. So I was a very junior.
I was the story department's researcher.
He spent I was, I'm sure that sounds self-explanatory, but
basically as they were planning the stories for each 13 episode
block, they needed some want to,yes, help plan those stories,
but actually apply all the research, make sure that the
stories felt real and speak to the doctors, speak to the

(16:27):
hospital managers, make sure that what was being plotted out
by the writers and by the story team had something it based on
reality, I guess. So that's how and then I was
sort of, I was away from there really building from that.
I think what I think most crazy about doing any jobs like that
is how quickly you forget all the research you spent.
Probably a long everyday, you know, for mums and mums really

(16:50):
like you know, I was so unscrewed.
I did a lot of research on prisons or whatever and you
forget 95% of it three months later and I find that mad
concerned how much time you spend.
Yeah. And also the thing about Holby,
because it was a soap, it was a continuing drama and it was a
machine and just had to feed that machine.
So what would inevitably happen is I would spend months and

(17:11):
months working out the best way for something to happen.
And then a writer would get holdof it and say, yeah, but that's
not dramatic, Nick, we need it to happen now.
And then you'd have to completely RIP up all that
research and go back and try andfind a way to make what you'd
carefully plan to happen over six months happen in six days.
That was. But that was a real, I was
really important because that was, you know, the thing about

(17:33):
those, those we all know this, the soaps, the continuing
dramas, those big returning series.
That was a really steep learningcurve for me, not least because
the turn around is so fast. That's scary.
But that's so useful because it taught me I got to see things
that I had storylined go on to screen really quickly and I got

(17:54):
to really quickly go whoops, that didn't work, that wasn't a
good idea. That thing I suggested, they
didn't play very well or the writers couldn't realise it or
whatever it was. And that was extraordinarily
important for me going forward and all my other jobs.
Because on other shows, you can wait years to see it finally end
up on the other side on screen and see how people react.

(18:15):
And that speedy turn around is, is so useful.
As well as the fact that, yeah, you're making such volume,
you're making so doing so many stories, you're using so many
characters. That's so important.
Yeah, I remember when I went from doing a show like screwing
worked in sort of TV developmentfor two years, then went to so
which is the opposite of what most people do is usually the

(18:36):
other way around. But I find that mad like the
complete the difference in a way.
I was like, oh, this will make me a much better scripted in
lots of ways because you're kindof high end dramas are very
tricky in a different way. But you kind of spoil this pose
in the terms of unusual and theyhave 6 episodes which is a bit
easier as opposed to like 50 episodes in the same time.
You got more time to think aboutit, but that's not always useful

(19:00):
and it's not always productive. And it doesn't mean you
necessarily get a higher qualityproduct like, you know, it's
about. There are.
Yeah, there are advantages and disadvantages to both systems,
aren't there, which you know, because you've done both.
I think as you say, when you're early on, when you're starting
out, just, I thought of needed just to experience drama and

(19:21):
drink it up and see how it was being made and written and work
with lots of different people. And I think that that's why it
was really helpful for me, because there was also just a
time pressure to be like, you'vegot to pick this up.
You've got to learn how to do this.
And you haven't got six months to sit back and sort of go.
I wonder what Holby City is. You just had to, you had to join
this runaway train. The machine needs feeding that,

(19:43):
you know, the last, the worst thing you could possibly do on
any of those shows is stop. So you just have to keep going.
That was really scary, and we didn't always make the right
choices, but I learned somethingreally useful, which is
sometimes you just have to make a choice because no one knows
what the right answer is. And that's a really important
thing to take forward, I think. I wanted to ask you about soaps

(20:06):
because what I think is interesting is even, you know,
speaking to someone like yourself, your first proper job
apart from the distribution company and TV was you started
in a soap. Lots of people, you know, big
writers being people like Sally Wainwright, you know, even Rob
Williams who wrote Screw, you know, started in soap.
So many people have come throughthat.
And at the moment we're in a time, I mean, we're talking
about a show like Colby that's not on TV anymore.

(20:28):
Obviously River City, which I work for the moment, is going to
be closing its doors and stuff. But what do you think is
happening there? Think soaps are dead with a
commissioner hat on? Or do you just think it's part
of the sort of change in landscape we're in?
I don't know if they're dead because I think the ones that
are running are doing really well.
I think the reality is that soaps are part of that bigger

(20:49):
trend that's going on in television right now, aren't
they? They're susceptible to the same
things, which is people are choosing.
We're in a world now where people are.
It used to be the case that people turned on BBC One or they
turned on ITV and they sat thereand they watched it from 7:00 to
10:00 and they allowed the programme makers and the

(21:09):
broadcasters to sort of curate their experience for them and
tell them what they should watchnext.
We're in a world where people can curate their own experience
on any evening or any time of the day.
They can choose what it is they're going to watch.
And so that sense of soaps are about habit, aren't they?
They're habit forming. They're about coming back at the
same time every week all together and watching the next

(21:30):
reveal. And that is how a lot of people,
maybe the majority, I don't knowwhat the figures are, but that's
how a lot of people just aren't engaging with television content
in that way anymore. They're choosing what they want
to do. Some people are choosing to keep
watching their soaps. But that sense of, oh, there's a
gap between the programme I wanted to watch at 7 and the
programme I wanted to watch at 8:00, I'll stick here and I'll

(21:53):
watch EastEnders in the meantime.
That is less common than it usedto be.
And I think that's what's driving soap audiences down and
that's what's, you know, soaps are having to compete with that
like everyone else. I think that they still serve a
really important function, firstly for the people who are
watching it. That's the most important thing.
So, yeah, for people to like me,like you get experience that

(22:16):
they need to learn how television is actually made, how
dramas made and how scripts workand, you know, whatever job that
is, not just from our side with script editing and producing,
but you know, that is so many great directors, so many, you
know, yes, all those writers youtalked about.
I mean, that's How I Met Rob thefirst time is on Holby.
Like, you know, and that sense of collaboration of all those

(22:39):
people coming together, that's every, that's every TV drama.
And it's quite telling that lotsof things I learned on Holby I'm
still using now. I still refer to now, which
shows. It must have been training me
for something, just how to make Holby City.
Is that a networking event recently in Scotland?
And I think seven, I don't have the exact, but I'm pretty sure I

(23:01):
think maybe 7 out of the 10 execs or company run people that
were there had come through soap.
So everything that just speaks like exactly, you know, is one
of the we do need that training ground to remain.
And I know we're both employed by the BBC so I won't too
controversial, but I think, yeah, I think a short sighted

(23:22):
sometimes by the industry to sometimes cutting something
isn't always the best way. Even if numbers are going down
or whatever it can, it might have a wider knock on effect in
the future. Yeah, I think, you know, the
other challenge, which I didn't mention there, but it's the
obvious elephant in the room is money.
And I think that, you know, likeyou say, there are lots of
arguments for and against where that money should go it.

(23:44):
You know, I am pleased to say that I haven't had to make any
difficult decisions about any soaps in my time there.
But I think they are really harddecisions because there's a lot
of pressures for certainly the BBC, certainly anywhere to keep
doing everything. And we're discovering that maybe
that's not to say, you know, we're still making an
extraordinary amount of drama. That's really exciting.

(24:05):
But you know, it's trying to, it's trying to prioritise, isn't
it? And and you're always, every
show is going to be someone's favourite.
That's the other struggle really.
I think what we have to do is rather than look at it as, oh,
these soaps have gone, thereforethe opportunities to train
people are diminished is we haveto really look really hard as an
industry, as commissioners, as whoever we are at.

(24:27):
So what's going to replace thoseopportunities for those people
if we can't? If we can't make a show like
River City, that's regrettable. But if that's the decision
that's been made, what are we going to do to make sure we're
still bringing new talent and new people through?
How are we going to change the way high end drama works to
support those people? Because you know, that's, that's

(24:47):
difficult, that's tough, you know, and but we've got to do
that because otherwise there won't be an industry in however
many years time at the same calibre, with the same knowledge
and experience. So it's up to us to make sure
that we're thinking about that rather than just wringing our
hands and going, oh, it's terrible, there's no money, what
should we do? There's lots of drama being
made, so there should be lots ofopportunities for people.

(25:10):
It just doesn't always feel likethat, I think.
And then the other position the BBC sometimes finds itself in is
because it's a public body, it just gets a kick in and way that
other broadcast organisations are don't maybe get the same
thing because it has, it's made to be more accountable, which
which you know, is tricky, even though it's a good thing.
It's a brilliant service and I think a lot of people

(25:31):
underestimate how much they get from the BBC if you include all
the sport and, you know, news and everything it has.
But I think unfortunately that opens up to quite a lot.
As you say, everyone's got a favourite show and a lot of
times people tend to voice when they don't like something as
opposed to when they do. I mean, obviously I'm not going
to disagree with that. I'm going to say, yeah, they,

(25:51):
they get kicked all the time. It's not fair.
No, I think that I think that's right.
I think that people again, because we're now in a world
where people have a lot of choice, they forget sometimes
how much they choose BBC services and in ways they
interact with those services. And you can say, Oh well, he
works for them, he's bound to say that.

(26:13):
But in my private time, I get tochoose whatever I want to watch
and whatever I want to do. And I'm constantly amazed how
often I return to or engage withthe BBC in whatever way.
And I think that's really important.
I wouldn't be able to do this job if I didn't think it was an
important institution. Some people will disagree with
that, but I think it still has areally important role to play.

(26:35):
And some of the standards that it sets, those streamers, those
new code that they want to be more like the BBC, believe it or
not, like their model for how they're going to make their
businesses more successful is tocopy some of the things we have
done very successfully for a very long time.
So ignore that at your payroll Ithink.
Not for sure. I think a lot of the 10 people

(26:57):
think, well, I paid 1299 a monthfor Netflix if you know, but
they don't actually realise thatthat's actually you don't get
that much for that service really.
But yeah, it's a complicated, it's a complicated discussion
and they're not not criticising Netflix.
There was a big some good shows.But I think sometimes we maybe
if you think about how much you get from something it does not
you don't always realise it's maybe more than you think I want

(27:18):
to. I want to talk about Doctor Who
and your time there because I mean, I know from knowing you've
grown up, you were like, I was abig fan of the show and you
touched on the behind the scenesstuff.
It must have been a bit mental to sort of end up working on a
show like Doctor and question your role really, because script
did it. And I'm sure that's, you know,
it's a big job. So I, it's funny that because I

(27:38):
spent a lot of time before I gotthat job or before that job come
up, came up thinking about doingthat job.
I'm really wanting to do it. And then what?
As if this ever happens to people in real life, wanting to
do that job and then getting an opportunity to actually do it is
insane. And I'd spent a long time

(27:59):
thinking about it. And then as soon as I got the
job, I slightly panicked becauseI thought, Oh my God, what am I
doing here? Do I want to meet any of the
people that I think are fantastic and clever and
brilliant? And when I did the show, it was
Stephen Moffat who was the showrunner and it was Peter
Capaldi who was the Doctor. I, but I genuinely, maybe this

(28:19):
is kind of arrogant. I, I sort of, I knew that I knew
how to do that job because I'd sort of been doing an
apprenticeship in how that show worked for a lot of my life.
And not just that show, but shows like that.
And so, I mean, that show was incredibly hard to do.
It still is. It's amazingly difficult to
make. I think people don't they

(28:41):
underestimate how difficult it is to make that show because it
doesn't conform to any rules of drama at all.
It shouldn't work. It shouldn't be made.
And yet it's a it's a mega hit. So, you know, it just goes to
show what do we know? Like, you know, it, it was, I
mean, in the 1960s, it was basically commissioned by focus
group. We need something to go in this
slot to reach this audience. And let's do it.

(29:02):
Let's let's make sure it's educational about history and
science. Like it's completely mad.
That's not the way to Commissionthe show at all and let alone
for it to be successful and be ahit.
And I, and I think that so, yeah.
So it was, it was scary, but I was so excited about it.
And it was it. I did quite a long longer there

(29:22):
than I expected to. I was there for a few years
either because I thought they were going to get rid of me or
because I thought, oh, what? I'm going to have to move to
Cardiff, Do I want to do that? What am I doing here?
And actually, I just loved it. That's why I stayed there, the
creative opportunities. And the other thing is for me to
do, not only was I going to workwith some incredible writers,

(29:42):
and that's really what I wanted,I wanted to get access to
writers I couldn't access on thejobs I'd done before.
And that's what that show gave me.
That was the primary reason to do it.
But also it was an amazing opportunity for me because to
make that show as the script, you need to be across all the
departments. You need to go and see everyone.
Because if you're making sciencefiction, you know, when the

(30:05):
script says the alien has yelloweyes, you would be amazed when
you bring all the hods together,what people think that means.
Do you mean the iris is just yellow, the whole eye is yellow,
the eyes glowing, there's laserscoming.
Everybody interprets that slightly differently.
And so you've got to help the showrunner and the other execs
and the producer communicate what it is we want to see

(30:28):
because so much of it inevitablyjust making up.
It's a spaceship. I don't know, like, you know.
And so that was really great training ground for me and move
into producing, I think because it forced me to learn what all
those hundreds of people in the art department or wherever, what
they were all doing and how thatinteracted and what they were
struggling with and what choicesthey had to make to realise some

(30:52):
really complicated scripts. What was the sort of like, I
mean, it's probably very hard toanswers and I know it was a long
time ago as well now, but like what is it like a sort of stand
out moment from that time? Like was there like an episode
you worked in particularly that you remember the most or like
what was what was some of the sort of standing moments from
that? Because this is kind of a mad.
Actually, it's a mad. It's just mad that you got to

(31:12):
they ended up on a show like that.
Wait, as such a fan? There are.
What's funny now is that that isthe show that will probably be
attached to me forever, which iskind of lovely and kind of
strange. Like, I know when I meet someone
who's a Doctor Who fan, they start talking to me about it,
even if I haven't mentioned it. I've never met them before.
They will start bonding over it,they tell me.

(31:33):
Lots of them have lots of them reference the same episodes that
I did, which is also quite strange because I didn't write
them. So I, I did work really hard on
them, but like, I feel a bit embarrassed of like, thank you
very much. Yes, it is a superb episode.
No one says, gosh, I didn't. I'd work on a superb episode,
especially when you were the script editor.
There were a couple. There's an episode called Heaven

(31:54):
Sent, which everyone is now obsessed with at the time and
they really are now, which is effectively, I mean, it's
essentially a Peter Capaldi monologue, although you wouldn't
know it when you start watching it.
I mean, it's an extraordinary performance.
It's an incredible, incredible bit of writing from Stephen.
My memory is just Stephen used to deliver the scripts in
chunks. So like he'd be behind.

(32:15):
So he would deliver Part 1, Part2, but it wasn't, it was that
was just the script and you would sort of see him revising
it as it went along. So by the time we got to the end
of the script, as the person whowas under be full of typos, I
mean, I can't. And some sentences didn't make
sense and he knew it, but he would just send it over to you
because he's just downloading itfrom his incredible brain.
And so actually, you felt as youwere doing it, like you were in

(32:38):
his head and you were trying to decipher it for everybody else.
And that is both a very funny and a very dark place to be
Stephen Moffat's head. But I, I loved that.
I loved being so close to peoplewho had really, really clever
ideas and also how funny it is. I mean, he's really as a writer.
He's funny. The other writers were
encouraged to be funny. I loved all of that.

(32:59):
And I think. But, yeah, definitely that
episode, the episodes you remember, the ones that you got
away with by the seat of your pants.
I think that about every show I've ever done, the ones that
went smoothly, where everyone went.
Yes, congratulations. Fantastic episode.
That felt like they just came off the conveyor belt.
We were like great, the ones that people love and I go, that

(33:20):
one was quite difficult actually.
They're the ones that you reallyhold in your brain where you
just didn't or where we didn't know how to make it.
We didn't know if it would work.Like again, it's funny because
Doctor Who's been in the news a lot recently and there's been a
lot of looking back at series 10, which the series I did and
everyone saying how great it is.And I'm like, that's not that's
not what everyone said at the time.

(33:41):
Like so like it's also because it has such a legacy and such a
long tail. Doctor Who, it's a really
amazing show to work on because people are still talking about
things I made in 2016. I mean, that doesn't happen.
I made another show for left hand pictures called DCI Banks.
No one's watching that. No one, no one realises.
It was just as hard. It was just as difficult.

(34:03):
Like I worked with just as amazing people.
The legacy of that show means that that some of those episodes
will sort of haunt me, if that'sthe right word, forever.
And I'm really grateful for it. And I'm just delighted that I
had a good time because it'd be awful if people coming up to me
and talking to me about it. And I hated it.
And actually I'm like, no, no, it was a lot of fun.
It was really difficult, but it was a lot of fun.

(34:24):
Heaven Sent really has aged likefrom you know, that run like
it's being referenced so much. Risa.
I suppose Audrey has been in thenews and I just say found them
so interesting because I remember when Capaldi Edo was on
the amount of people that would,you know, critique it or, you
know, say, oh, this is rubbish compared to like what we had.
It's interesting how things develop over time as well.

(34:45):
We always thought it was brilliant.
We always thought he was amazing.
But it is really interesting to watch the love growing for that.
And that's the year I see referenced all the time.
And yeah, heaven sense a funny one because I always thought it
was brilliant. None of us knew if it was going
to work. Like just because I loved the
script didn't mean it was going to work as an episode of Doctor
Who. Steven didn't know it was going

(35:06):
to work. He'd hate me for saying that.
But he none of us because you just can't.
You just can't know whether something you don't sit back
ever and think, well, we've justwritten the greatest episode of
all time. I mean, how arrogant and crazy
are you? Like all you do is the thing
about working in on all these television shows, as you spend
most of your time obsessing overthe things that you know, tiny

(35:27):
little details that you worry everyone's going to spot.
Most of the time they don't. They just go over their heads.
But that's what you obsess aboutand worry about for most of the
time. Hello, it's Jamie here.
I hope you're enjoying this week's episode.
It's just a quick one for me to say that if you're listening to
the podcast on Apple, Spotify orwhatever platform you engage

(35:47):
with our show on, be sure to give us a follow or a subscribe
as it goes a long way into helping us grow and find new
listeners as well as helping youkeep up with all the latest
episodes and everything that's happening.
I just get a real job. You can also support us by
subscribing to our Patreon page for the price of a cup of coffee
per month. All the money we make goes back
into the upkeep of the podcast. Thank you for your continued

(36:08):
support and we hope you enjoy the rest of today's episode.
Thank you very much. If we're listening to Part 1 of
this week's episode with BBC Commissioner Nick Lambon,
welcome back for Part 2. Remember to subscribe whatever
you're listening to podcast. I'm not going to pretend to your
listeners, as you can probably tell me knickering different

(36:28):
outfits. We had some software issues
completely on my end the other day.
So Nick is very kindly reconvened for me.
I'm going to finish this week's episode and I keep chanting.
Nick, how are you today? We'll pretend as if I've
reintroduced you. Yeah, let's pretend if people
can't see I'm wearing a tux, it's for the second-half.
I'm looking really formal. No, I'm not at all.

(36:48):
Yeah, no, I'm all good. I'm all good.
I'm. I'm ready to continue this
grilling. So I just asked you about Doctor
Who when we were last chatting on Monday and you'd talked all
about your experience. There's a script editor.
I kind of want to ask you next about how you transitioned into
becoming a producer. So I know before you went on to
sort of produce some shows like Silent Witness and also on
Screw, which is where I met you,that you also worked on a show

(37:11):
called Sandrichen as well. But how did that whole chapter
in your life come around? I think by that time when I was
finishing up on Doctor Who, I really wanted to be a producer.
Clearly I'd gone mad. Now I really, really, really
wanted that gig. And so I've been sort of doing a
bit of an apprenticeship of thatfor a while.
And then when I went to Red Planet Pictures and started

(37:33):
talking to them, they wanted to make a new Jane Austen
adaptation. It was quite unusual, quite
different, written by Andrew Davis, who obviously did the
very famous Pride and Prejudice with Colin Firth, Sweatshirt and
lots of other dramas besides. They sort of had an opening for
me to work on script, but also to be an assistant producer and

(37:53):
start to shadow, as it were, theproducer on that, and just start
to get more of a feel of what the day-to-day life of a
producer was going to be. And that looked like a really
good transition, a really good stepping stone to seeing whether
it was something I did really want to do or if it was just an
idea that I had. And also just to get more
experience. And I think probably lots of

(38:16):
people listening get frustrated by this and bad news, it doesn't
get any better the higher up yougo.
Every time you want to do a new job, people say, Oh yeah, you'd
be brilliant at that. But as you haven't done it
before, you haven't quite got the experience you need to go
and do. And I saw sort of coming up
against that a bit and trying tomove from script editing to
producing. So by doing assistant producing,

(38:36):
that felt like a natural step. And then again, when I left that
and did Sign of Witness, I started as a story producer.
So I started in the story room in the script department and
transitioned over the course of a series thanks to some
fantastic. There was an executive producer
there called Lawrence Till, who I absolutely love and still

(38:56):
speak to all the time, and he was a very experienced producer
and director actually, and he agreed to just slowly introduce
me to everything that I needed to see so that by the end of the
series I was running it. I was doing it all by myself.
It was like having the stable on.
It was a fantastic opportunity to learn how to ride all by
myself and that was great. Was it hard leaving a show like

(39:19):
Doctor Who to and doing something kind of different
because of those shows are all very different, such a big show
like Doctor? Or did it feel like that, as
you'd said to sort of natural next step?
It felt probably like the right time because at that point
Stephen Moffat was leaving for Chris Chibnall to take over.
So there was and Peter Capaldi was, there was a sort of natural

(39:41):
gap coming. There was a, there was a new era
starting now. I could have stayed and done
that. No one said Nick, bad news
you've got to go to. But it felt like a natural
stepping off point. I guess this is the first thing
and I wanted to come back to London.
That's where a lot of my friendsare.
That's where I knew a lot of other opportunities were because
I've been in Cardiff for like 3 1/2 years I think, and I

(40:01):
absolutely loved it. But I sort of wanted to try and
get back to where I've been before.
I hadn't intended to be there that long.
And also, yeah, I think it's important to do very different
things. I mean, when they offered me
Sanderton, I was like, I've never done a period of drama
before that's both quite scary and quite exciting.
I like that. I like what I love about the

(40:22):
jobs I've done is feeling like you're doing something new all
the time. You know what I mean?
And that's not for everyone. Some people it continuing dramas
for their whole lives. Sample make nothing but
detective shows. I've been really lucky that
different opportunities have come up and I've wanted to test
myself and find out what what that's like and see what there
is new to learn. I think if you're not learning,

(40:43):
then it can get a bit. The jobs aren't quite as fun
when you're not feeling like you're riding by the seat to
your pants sometimes going. I don't know what I'm doing
here, but I'm sure it's great. What are the what are the sort
of biggest differences then between script editing and
producing? Obviously it's the big rules and
I'm not expecting you to explainit to our listeners perfectly,
but maybe what some of the most obvious differences are.

(41:06):
I think that's there are different types of producer.
It's the first thing to understand.
I was always going to be, this sounds really obvious.
I was always going to be becoming what they sometimes
call a creative producer, which sounds very insulting to other
producers. But there are there are line
producers and people who come upsolely from that production side
and they become producers. And there are people who come up

(41:28):
from script editing and and editorial and both.
Neither is better or worse. But I think that the first
challenge for me was making sureI really did understand what
people were doing. I mean, I've got some fantastic
advice when I was on sign up witness working under Lawrence
Till who I mentioned, who just said the first thing you're
going to have to learn in this job is what you're going to let

(41:49):
go of. The mistake that a lot of
producers, especially new producers make is thinking, my
goodness, I've now got to be in trouble.
Absolutely everything I've got to know everything.
I've got to know why they're putting that lens on that
camera. Of course, you don't need to
know that. That's why you're employing a
lot of other people. So you've got to have enough
understanding, but also trust tolet the people who really know

(42:11):
what they're doing do what do what they've trained to do, do
what they have experience of. I think what I what was unusual
is I think when you're a script editor, you're in a little
bubble where you're working withall the other editorial people.
Really that's what you're doing.Usually the particularly the
writer, particularly on someone like Doctor Who has a
showrunning writer who's also anexec, the editorial or bleeds

(42:31):
into everything. I think what I discovered quite
quickly, which again might seem really obvious, is I had a sort
of superpower, which is, you know, I was able to read a
script and very quickly go, oh, we'll change that.
Oh, we don't need to do that. That's not very important for
the story. Whereas there were certain HOD's
and certain people who would come to me in a panic when I
started and go, Nick, there's absolutely no way we can set

(42:53):
this on the rooftop. And you are like, well, of
course we're not going to set iton a rooftop.
That's draft too. Like, you know, and, and just
having that not understanding, being able to look at a script
and understand what the most important bit of story we needed
to keep and what we could let goof.
That was really important and really useful.
And I guess why I was hired to do their shows.
There'd be other shows where they're very, very creative

(43:15):
execs who feel they need something different from their
producer. But I think it was firstly scary
because as I say, you're going, Oh my goodness, I don't think I
know everything there is to knowabout this.
But also, it was kind of reassuring because I was also,
oh, I do know some of this. I may not have put it into
practise, but I have spoken to actors.
I do know how to explain the script.
I do know how to explain the story to people who aren't

(43:38):
familiar with the way the process works.
So yeah, that sort of sounds like good and bad, doesn't it?
But I guess that's what everyonefeels when they start a new job.
I want to, I mean this, as you said earlier in an interview,
like sometimes, you know, the job of our job in TV is often to
make something without the audience realising that anything
went wrong. They don't care about the
hardware, they just want to see the result and what are the sort

(44:00):
of biggest chat? I suppose you may be kind of
touched me there, but what's themost challenge of being a
producer? Because there's a lot of
pressure that comes there. When I worked a few on screw,
there's always been some very challenging days on that job and
you know, it's it's very stressful.
You're kind of carrying the weight of lots and lots of
people on your shoulders. Yeah, I think that the one thing
that's drilled into you as a producer is you must complete,

(44:23):
complete the scene, complete theday, complete the entire shoot
to get it, get it done, get it finished.
And there's a certain, there's arhythm to that.
I don't know if you think this, but I think when you're actually
in production and you're there, it's a bit like a beating drum,
isn't it? The schedule, you become a bit
of a slave to it. You've just got to complete
everything. And I think a lot of people come

(44:43):
to you as that's the producer and the way they phrase problems
in question, they do make out like it is your job to fix it.
And again, I think that's what it's sort of, it's sort of is
your job to help them fix it. But again, you've got to sort of
step back for a minute and thinkto yourself, but hold on, I'm
not a production designer, so ofcourse I don't know the exact

(45:05):
answer. All I can do is talk from my
point of view about what's what's the issue and what's the
story we're trying to tell and why is that difficult?
Explain to me what might be possible.
I think being curious and askingquestions to help people find
the answers for themselves, that's a really important part
of being a producer. And also communicate.

(45:25):
I mean all of our jobs, every job that anyone's ever done,
especially being a producer, communication is so important,
being trans parent. And that doesn't mean telling
them everything you know, you know, sometimes you know things
as a producer that you absolutely cannot tell everyone
else because you're either because it's confidential or
you're sitting on something thatyou know will completely panic

(45:46):
everyone. You don't want to tell them that
tomorrow's location has collapsed because hopefully
you're going to fix it by the end of the day.
You want to make sure that you know you are being clear and if
you don't have a script, explainwhy you don't have a script and
what you're going to do about itand what the timeline of the
that is going to be. There's no point in trying to
cover that up. People need to know why you try

(46:08):
and explain why you're making some decisions.
And I think the last thing, I think I said this while we were
working together, but I think The funny thing about being
producer is you're asked to make38,000 decisions a day.
What you realise as you've been doing it for a little while is
sort of doesn't matter sometimeswhat decision you make.
If that wall is blue or green, it, it's not actually going to

(46:31):
impact anything. They just need someone to make a
decision. And the worst thing you can do
is spend 3 days thinking about whether that wall is going to be
blue or green because everythingwill stop.
Everyone will lose confidence inyou.
He can't make a decision. He doesn't know, he's never seen
the colour green. You know, they, they all panic
and actually, you know, there are really big important
decisions, but actually there's a lot of decisions that you just

(46:54):
have to make and secretly don't tell anyone.
They're not that important actually.
In the end, the show carried on and everyone was happy and we
went on to the next scene. The last question I have for you
on producing and sort of workingwith talent as well, because
obviously not you're not just working with crew, but as a
producer you also have to be quite front facing with the
actors and often quite big, you know, well known people

(47:16):
obviously and screwed. There was some, we had some big
names. We had a pigeon in an episode
which shows I had to produce, which, you know, one of my sort
of main memories from that show,weirdly.
What? What?
A diva will never work with thatpigeon again.
Jamie, you know, I mean, he was an absolute nightmare.
He had a day, a day of filming his own trailer, you name it.
I just remember that day particularly, which is why I
brought up because I think you'dcome back from Peterhead or

(47:37):
something and we were literally the morning schedule is just a
pigeon being filmed and you haveto make lots of decisions about
this pigeon now. I was like hell if I ended up
working in this industry as a mental.
The pigeon does stay in my head for some reason, even though we
did weeks and weeks and weeks ofshooting that morning where we
had to wrangle a pigeon and shoot some other things and

(48:00):
everyone else was trapped in a snowdrift in Peterhead.
Yeah, that does that. That is quite a distinctive
memory of working on Screw actually.
And I'm not sure if it was warmer in the snowdrift in
Peterhead or in our freezing cold studio back in Glasgow.
I was all completely mad. Yeah, yeah, it, yes.
I don't know, but no. You mean you mean talent Apart
from a pigeon? Have I worked?

(48:21):
Have I worked with anyone, work with anyone better than that
pigeon? Yes, I have.
Let's get that on the record. Yeah.
I, well, I don't know, really. I think that, you know, you can
get occasionally you do get bit starstruck when you meet someone
for the first time, you've seen on telly or you've seen in a
film and you're really like, oh,my goodness.
But very quickly it's like writers.
It's something you talk to writers or when you talk to

(48:42):
anyone on the crew, like they'renormal people who've got their
own insecurities. And you have to quite quickly
work out what those are and how you're going to reassure them
that none of those things are going to cripple them and bring
the production to a complete standstill.
I think again, you've got to be quite open with people and it's
not about burdening them and sitting them down and me telling
them all the problems that are going on in my head.

(49:03):
But I think you want to listen to what they're worried about
and say, try and say hopefully as a producer, you don't need to
worry about those things like you don't, you don't need to
worry about the fact we didn't complete that scene today.
We're going to come up with a solution and we'll film it
tomorrow or we'll film it in three weeks time.
I don't know. And, and I think people are very
frightened in TV of saying the words I don't know.

(49:24):
And I've found the longer I do it, the more I say it because
not that you want to be saying it in the answer to every single
question, but I think it's OK toshow that.
No, I don't. I don't have the answer to that
immediately, but I will and you can leave it with me and I will
find out and I will fix it. You've got to be responsive.
I think you've got to be for talent in particular.

(49:45):
I think you've got to be visible.
I don't think you can be the producer and sit in your office
all day, which you could becauseyou've got a lot of work to do
and you've got 100 emails, and it'd be a lot easier if you just
sat at the laptop. But I think you have to be, no
matter how difficult the day is,no matter how stressed you are,
you have to be available to people for them to find you when

(50:06):
they see you. This sounds silly.
It's not like we're in the Army or anything.
But people take confidence from the fact that you're just there,
that you're willing to, like, face up to the fact that, yeah,
you know what? It's really cold.
We're all really tired. We're all a bit.
I'll today hasn't gone very well, but Nick's sitting here
with us and going through the same things with us.
I think that solidarity is quiteimportant for producers and I

(50:29):
certainly as a script editor, work with producers who do sit
upstairs and don't come down to the floor.
And it makes a huge difference to morale.
It makes a huge difference to, you know, you don't want to
create us. And then I think that's all.
I've never liked that. I think you need to be available
to people well. Just for the listeners, I'll
vague for Nick. He actually does practise what

(50:50):
he's saying on this protest because when I worked with him
he actually had to give up his office for the COVID department
to fit their equipment in Swedenhave an office.
So there you go. Was very visible.
Well, I guess that does remind me that, yes, the other thing
about my a lot of my producing career is that it was during
COVID and that was obviously terrifying, like the real
heights of COVID when no one knew how to even make television

(51:13):
anymore. But that sort of with hindsight,
not at the time it felt like theworld was ending, but with
hindsight, that was quite usefulto me as a new producer because
everybody had something new to learn.
Nobody knew how to make drama under those conditions.
And it meant that actually really understanding, No, no,
that's the story we're telling. We can drop the rest of that.
That became absolutely invaluable to getting shows

(51:36):
made. So.
But no, alas, alas, my office. I've forgotten that someone had
offered me an office. No, alas, that that disappeared.
It was gone. I was homeless very quickly.
It did too or something. And the last question on
producing, but has your sort of it production experience is that
I must have helped a lot and your new rule as a commissioner

(51:56):
of the last few years at the BBC, because you actually can
probably emphasise when you're commissioning a show and working
with production companies are making shows like how the how it
also works from a practical point of view.
Yeah. I mean, the answer to the first
bit is God, yes. I mean, I don't know how I
couldn't be a commissioner if I hadn't already done that work of
being a producer and a script editor and worked on

(52:19):
productions. Because you know, as a
commissioner at the BBC, I be looking after 8910 productions.
They're all at different stages.So some of them are in really
early prep and they don't need my help.
Some of them are about to be transmitted.
But I'm working on loads of shows at once.
And you need that in grid and that rhythm and being able to

(52:40):
you personally to talk to peopleon their level about the
experiences that they're having.You need to be able to give
notes clearly. You need to understand what
impact the notes you're giving are going to have.
You need to know that if I how important is this note?
If we give it, if we give it thenight before they shoot, it's
going to blow everything up. Like do we really need to say
that? Do we really need to be engaged

(53:02):
in that as commissioners? But yeah, I think, I think the
other thing is that not all commissioners come from
production at all. In fact, a lot of them don't.
But I think that certainly with the shows I've done, what I hope
and what people have told me is knowing that I've done that job
reassures them that I'm not wasting their time.
That they're not going to have to over explain things to me.

(53:24):
That if I'm asking a question, it's coming from a place of
wanting to help rather than justbeing a bit ignorant about how
anything on the production side works.
But yeah, I have to interact with a lot of different
executive producers and producers and writers at any one
time, on any one day, any one week.
And they all have their different strengths, weaknesses,

(53:44):
things they're worried about, things they don't worry about.
Some of them worked for the BBC for years and years and years.
Some of them have never done it before.
So there's lots to communicate and guide them through I guess.
Those are the interesting, I've got a few sort of bigger picture
questions for you, which may be hard to answer.
But I suppose we kind of touchedon this earlier when we talked

(54:05):
about soap and changing viewing habits and stuff.
But the the industry's gone through a lot of changes on
paper at the moment, you know, with anything from viewing
habits, you've got things like AI coming into the equation, you
know, just just, it feels like about an odd time in the world
in general. But what, what's your sort of
take on that as a commissioner and what do you think the
biggest challenges facing not just the BBC but the industry in

(54:28):
general are at the moment? And what are the sort of
exciting opportunities? I think lots of people probably
know those big challenges that are coming down the track, I
mean, or they're already here. I mean, AI is here.
And I think my big, my biggest challenge with AI is
understanding it. What can it do?
What can it not do? What does it mean?

(54:48):
And I hate to sound like 100 years old, but you know, I'm
very happy to use AI if I know what the advantages are and
what, how that works. And by understanding it, that is
how I will make sure that peopleare not being exploited or
pushed out of their own work or whatever, whatever the, there
are lots of, I can see lots of pitfalls with AI.

(55:10):
There's also lots of advantages.But if I sort of sit and let it
happen around me as a commissioner.
And so we have to sort of educate ourselves and keep doing
courses and keep talking as an organisation about why, where is
it appropriate, how do we use it?
I think the really big thing that's affecting most people is
probably funding and the fact that, you know, it is getting
harder than it was before to, you know, fund shows and make as

(55:35):
many shows as we were post COVIDwhen that huge boom happened.
And it felt like absolutely everybody was making television
all at once. And that is threatening a lot of
jobs and it's threatening, you know, a lot of creative
opportunities. I guess, you know, I, I worry
about saying this on this podcast because I, I think it
makes me sound like I'm sitting in my ivory tower.

(55:57):
But you know, it when we were making screw and we were in the
height of that bubble of, Oh my goodness, there's so much being
made, There's so much going on. There were negative things about
that too. It was very, very difficult to
crew that show because so many people being offered so many
jobs that were paying so much money and they were joining on a

(56:18):
Monday and quitting on a Friday because they've been offered
hundreds more. Like, you know, that wasn't a
sustainable business model either.
I'm not saying we've now moved to something that's better.
I just think that there are challenges on both sides about
how we make sure you've got the industry has to be sustainable.
You don't just want one job. As freelancers, we want
sustainable, solid, continuous work.

(56:41):
We all want to be working. As someone who was a freelancer
for 10 years, the fear when yourcontract ends, the assumption no
matter how experienced you are, that when your job ends, you'll
never work again. It just goes into your head
straight away. What how you think I was a very
bad to be a freelancer? It doesn't suit my personality
at all to not have that certainty at work.
And even though I did it for a really long time and I think

(57:04):
that, you know, we have to thinkabout what how do we make the
industry as sustainable as we possibly can and there are
enough jobs coming through. We slightly talked about it with
soaps as well. If things are changing and it's
stupid to deny that they are, they're changing really, really
quickly. We've got to change the way we
work and the opportunities we give to people.

(57:26):
And we've got to think differently about what is a,
what is an entry level job or whatever those term crazy terms
are. Where should they be?
What, what does that mean? What are our expectations from
people, you know, to progress inthe industry?
Do I mean, how many shows do they have to do all of those
things? So I think those things are they
are challenging and they remain challenging.

(57:48):
But I guess what I'm trying to say with some of it is they've
always been some of those challenges.
I mean, it's always been difficult.
Doesn't that's probably not a very positive thing, is it?
But it's always been hard to progress and move forwards.
And so we all have to come together and, and, and, and
remember, we had to try and holdthat in our heads while we're
all panicking that the skyscaping in TV will probably

(58:10):
carry on, I think. But there's also lots of really
great opportunities, I think because if shows are being made
on a lower budget, if shows are being made in a way they used to
be made, say 5 or 10 years ago, people will be trusted, you
know, to make those shows in a way that they wouldn't.
You know, a new producer like meis not going to get the

(58:32):
equivalent of Game of Thrones series one that's that's not
going to happen. But I am likely to get a show
like Silent Witness that's made on a much smaller budget, that's
made a much smaller people. If if television is moving
toward, back towards that model,that is a course for celebration
for people who want to get firstjobs and who want to move up
into the next jobs, I think. Do you think it is moving

(58:54):
towards that then to you? Because I, I think what a lot of
the sort of interviews done in this podcast, I've had quite
done quite a lot of work around the crisis facing freelancers
and stuff. And I love the sort of people
being to have sort of worried that there's been a the mid
level shows have shrunk and the low budget ones have vanished
completely. So I know Channel 5 recently
commissioned a bunch of low budget stuff.

(59:14):
Do you think that's that's a bigsolution is if we can bring back
those cheaper to make shows? Because even when we did screw,
that became quite an expensive show to do, even though
traditionally that wouldn't havebeen.
And that was a big issue that wefaced as well.
Did you think the answer could be invest more in lower budget
shows and that might give us more sustainability?
I think we've sort of got no choice.
I mean, look, there's always going to be exceptions.

(59:35):
There's always going to be enormous studios or whatever.
But I think the days of making shows for, I don't know what the
numbers are, 78 million, you know, an hour.
I, I think they might come back.There might be certain show, you
know, when they make that new Harry Potter series, I'm sure
it's going to be made for more money than any of us can
possibly imagine day-to-day. The sorts of shows that are
going to be on BBC AC1 producersare are not, you know, they're

(59:59):
not that it's a business and they want to make programmes.
And if they can only raise a certain amount of money, that's
the money they'll make their show for.
And, and I think that I absolutely agree.
I'm not for a second downplayingthe reality of lots of shows and
lots of opportunities that have gone.
But I think that also as what we're in at the moment is a

(01:00:21):
period of adjustment I think where people are just trying to
work out what is the level. But I have a feeling that in
another, you know, six months, years time, what we used to call
high end or high budget, that line would have fallen.
That will go down. People won't be making shows for
that though. And, and I, I've always thought
that, yeah, the mid tier shows are where we get the new

(01:00:44):
producers and the new directors and the new writers that we have
to give them those opportunitiesto step forward and do that.
But yeah, there's a lot, I hope the BBC isn't doing this, but I
can see it in other places. And, and we talk about it a lot
to guard ourselves against it. When there's a contraction, the
first thing that people throw out the window is risk.

(01:01:06):
That's that's what you have to worry about.
You have to be really wary of that.
You have to, you know, you have to make sure that you're not
commissioning the same people tomake the same shows, to do the
same thing. You can do is keep looking at
each other as a team and go, whyare we saying no to this?
Are we saying no to this for theright reasons?
And actually, why are we saying yes to this?
Why are we making more of this when we could be doing that?

(01:01:28):
But it's hard. It's really difficult.
Because you can't understand whyand when budgets are tight and
money's tight, why you might go well, this right is really, you
know, they'd run free hit shows.So it's a safe option.
But then you do, you know, it's that tricky thing because you
don't end up in a position with the same 12 writers write all
the TV, which we, I mean, I knowthat's not quite true, but if

(01:01:48):
you look at the streamers, there's, you know, a lot of the
same writers that are doing all the same shows.
So it's as it's a hard balance. And it's good to hear that, you
know, you're saying that, you know, higher up in the BBC that
those discussions are happening because I think a lot of our
listeners worry about. I think there'll be people
listening to this who will scream and shout.
What's he talking about? That's so naive.
Look, the fundamental thing thatgets shows made is people like

(01:02:12):
me thinking this is good. It's not a, we must have another
show from XY and Z person. And actually sometimes the
really excellent shows, like I work on a show at the moment
called Blue Lights in Northern Ireland.
And I don't think anybody at theBBC when that was commissioned
sat around like, gosh, we must get another police responder
show on. If anything they were going,
that's the last thing. But it's been made because it's

(01:02:34):
really good and and it's really well written and it's a show,
it's really characterful and it comes from Belfast and gives us
an insight contemporary Belfast that we've not seen before.
We certainly haven't seen for a long time.
That is, you know, they all, they always joke that production
team that only the BBC would have commissioned that show.

(01:02:55):
Maybe that's true, maybe that isn't, who knows, Think those
are the kind of shows we just have to be driven by.
That's a really good show. It doesn't matter that these
guys haven't made very much and it's coming from another corner
of the country that I personally, you know, don't
always know absolutely everything about.
That's what the audience wants to see.
They want want to learn too. So yeah, we that we have to.

(01:03:17):
I don't know how else you can find new programmes unless the
first thing you say is, is it any good?
Yes or no? Or if you start adding lots of
other rules and thoughts, it becomes even more difficult than
it already is. So yeah, you don't want to be
doing that unless you absolutelyhave to.
No, it's all interesting stuff. I just got a few more questions
for you. One of them is just about the

(01:03:37):
sort of biggest lesson you've you've taken from your career so
far. I asked this to most of our
guests. My goodness, I think that's
really, really difficult. I think that I sort of half
answered it probably. I think being as open and
commutative as you can is so, soimportant.
And the other thing I would say,and it's partly by having this

(01:04:00):
conversation and talking about all the things I've done.
I, I worry that when you get to a certain level, people then
look at your IMDb and they see it as a sort of straight line of
carefully planned choices and decisions where, and there's
people who've recurred in my career and I, you know, I met
Rob Williams on Holby and then we work together on Screw, you

(01:04:21):
know, we and, and there's other people, you know, Lindsay Salt
is the head of drama. We were very, very junior script
edits, the Left Bank pictures together a long time ago.
And now we're working together again at the BBC in very, very
different jobs. And I think rather than
thinking, oh, I, it's all been carefully planned and it's gone
here. Don't say no to anything.
Like I took jobs just going OK, I don't know anything about

(01:04:43):
that. I'm not even sure I want to do
that. I, I wasn't someone who watched
Holby City religiously before hejoined Holby City.
I, I, you know, I wasn't sure whether I did really want to do
Doctor Who, but I didn't know anything about most of the shows
I've taken. And even if it wasn't the
greatest experience, even if theshow didn't do very well, I met

(01:05:04):
someone, I learned something, I engaged in some way that led to
the next thing or maybe the nextthing after that without me
realising, without me engaging with it.
So I think, yes, it's really important to have a goal and
think I want to get there, but also be open to how you might
make that journey and how you might get to that final

(01:05:24):
destination. Because what you've probably
learned by doing this podcast isyou could line 100 people in TV
up and ask them how they got their job.
And frustratingly, they've all got a very different answer.
So embrace it, I think. I think, I think we've done 175,
maybe more of these podcasts nowand it's mad how different the
journeys are for everyone acrossthe grave industry.

(01:05:46):
Yeah, there's no right path, which I think I think it's very
helpful for people because sometimes people listen and go,
oh, I didn't do that at 18 and blah, blah, blah.
So either there is no right path.
You sort of started to answer that there because my, I usually
a closing question on the podcast is what is your advice
for and we wanted to navigate inyour, in your case as a career
in TV, but what would your closing advice be for for

(01:06:08):
anyone? I mean, you did kind of answer
some of that there already. I think, again, this is going to
probably sound really daft, but I think be a fan of TV, watch TV
and love it when you're meeting people for the that awful thing,
which we've all done by the way.So no one should ever be afraid
of emailing someone who is in a senior position and saying can I

(01:06:28):
get some advice? Can we go for a coffee?
Especially in this day and age because you can jump on Zoom,
you don't have to travel to London from Newcastle and start
you did when I was starting out.You had to always travel up at
your expense and see people have1/2 hour conversation and ask
people the questions you want toask them because they they'll
probably respond and they'll probably be really lovely

(01:06:50):
because they remember being thatperson.
And what they want to see is, you know, they want to hear the
passion. They want to hear what it is you
would love to do. It doesn't mean they're going to
then offer it to you, but they're, but at least they can
get a sense of who you are, whatyour, what your taste is like.
Because actually that does count.
That does matter. Of course, there are writers and

(01:07:13):
directors and people deciding how a show's going to look and
feel, but they want to know if they can work with you if you're
going to enjoy that experience together.
So I think don't be afraid to approach people, but also be
open about, you know what you love.
If you if you absolutely love Jane Austen, tell someone you
know, there's no, you can't be wrong.

(01:07:34):
That's the great thing about it.You're what you love cannot be
wrong. It might not be that person's
taste, but that's different. And that's probably the start of
a conversation. Yeah, for not for sure.
And I think just to add to that,I think always watch.
Don't just talk about the most well known show that was on
Netflix as well. If you'll have to like try and
watch everything, whether that'sthe soaps or or what you know,

(01:07:56):
whatever has been on BBC that week or ITV that weeks just to
show that you're watching stuff that's coming out, not just on
the streamers. I think that is usually really
helpful if you want to show yourpassion about TVI.
Agree. And it's always stayed with me
and I didn't believe it, but it really was true.
People would come to interviews on Holby City having not watched
Holby City and I sort of couldn't believe it.
And they and they really did. And I was like, iPlayer exists,

(01:08:19):
you know, like it's not, it's not hard to find to spend 5
minutes watching something and getting to know it.
And it doesn't have to be that extreme.
But like, yes, if you're going to see someone or going to meet
them, see what they've done, watch it and like it.
I don't mean slag them off, but you can.
That's something to talk about too.
Why didn't you like it? What wasn't right?
They might agree with you. Like you don't always.

(01:08:41):
I've made some TV that I know wewas not the finest hour of
television ever made, and I might quite enjoy talking to
someone who also understands that sometimes that's what
happens and we did our absolute best.
No, for sure. Last question for you then,
Nick. And you probably get asked as
far too much as a Commissioner, but what would you like to see
more of on the telly? I get asked that a lot of times

(01:09:03):
a day, I have to be honest. But then you see that sort of
does link the last answer because then it becomes about
taste maybe as well as what we're looking for.
I've always loved those big, youknow, the the old school answer
is Spooks and Life on Mars and Hustle, those big exciting
returning series. I always wanted to work in TV.

(01:09:24):
I'm not criticising film becauseI've seen some amazing films,
but I was never quite captivatedby film in the same way TV that
long form storytelling. I just want to see as many of
those big, exciting, entertaining shows that go out
at 9:00 on BBC One as we can possibly, probably get our hands
on. And some of my colleagues work

(01:09:45):
on other shows are nothing like that at all.
And they they win loads of awards and they're really good.
I don't mind if it's a bit silly.
I mean, let it have a sense of humour please, is the other
thing I would say. I found having a sense of humour
has got me quite far in this industry and I quite enjoy
seeing that on screen. Therefore, they're the shows
that I always love, so I think some elements of that would be

(01:10:07):
really good. Well, Nick, I really appreciate
you coming down from your ivory tower as a commissioner to talk
to us about what it's all about and showing that.
Yeah. You're very welcome.
I will climb back up the steps now.
It just to close us off when we work together used to always
give me lots of various rules that you'd learned over the your
career. You want to leave us with a rule
as we wrap up? I don't know if it's a rule, but
like I think everyone should just remember, do you know how

(01:10:29):
hard you have to work to make something incredibly mediocre?
Like just when you sat there at home going why on earth, why on
earth did he, why didn't Nick step in as the commissioner and
stop this disaster? And you're like, I did.
This is the this is the good version.
Like, you know, you should you. One of my other kind of rules
is, you know, what I think everyone should have to do is

(01:10:52):
put up on screen before it starts.
You should have read the first draft.
Like, you know, when, when people are attacking you like
you're like we yeah, we, we knew.
We knew this wasn't. But don't worry.
Don't worry. Yeah.
I don't know how many rules I'vegot up to now.
Probably probably about 200. So they're all in there
somewhere. You know, the first rule of the
rules is don't mention the rules.
So. And I've and I've broken that

(01:11:14):
already. Well, Nick, thank you for your
time. I hope you can make up to
Scotland soon and thank you for.Yeah, lovely to see you.

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Ep. 177 - ‘What’s It Really Like to Be a BBC Commissioner?’ with Nick Lambon

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 177 - ‘What’s It Really Like to Be a BBC Commissioner?’ with Nick Lambon