EP. 183 - 'The Creative Industries Minister' Ian Murray MP - Just Get A Real Job

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello and thank you for listening to another episode of
Just Get a Real Job with your host, me, Jimmy McKinley.
I'm absolutely thrilled to welcome on the Minister for
Creative Industries, Ian Murray.It's a bit different to the
usual episodes I've done on thispodcast, but it's really
interesting to chat to Ian aboutthe work that the Department of

(00:21):
Media, Culture and Support are doing at the moment.
To ask him some of the questionsabout the issues facing
freelancers, especially in the screenings industry, which I've
experienced myself as someone who's going for a redundancy
with the cancellation of River City.
And it was also really interesting to chat to Ian about
the brilliant Discover Creative Careers campaign, which shares a
lot of the same values and goalsas the podcast and helping

(00:43):
demystify the creative industries and help young people
discover creative careers. And so really interesting
conversation, a bit different tothe usual ones, but I hope you
guys enjoy it. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Do get in touch and please subscribe wherever your lesson.
Hope you enjoy. Ian Murray, thank you very, very
much for coming on just Gary with your podcast this morning.

(01:04):
You're of course the minister for Crave Industries and I think
you're across another brief is all your cross science and
innovation as well. That's right.
Yeah. I've got a joint ministerial
brief designed because on the the science, innovation and
technology side, there was a missionary of government change
and a lot of the DCMS stuff in terms of telecoms and broadband
all went across to D set. But since the reshuffle, all

(01:27):
that stuff's gone to a differentminister.
So I've since got 22 nice portfolios now across both
departments, which work quite well with synergies of data and
digital. So it's it's a really, really
nice portfolio to have. Brilliant.
Well this podcast is all about demystifying the creative
industries, so lots to ask you. But I can't start then.
If I mentioned Scotland's amazing achievement the other

(01:49):
night, I'm sure everyone's stillbuzzing about it.
I said love it. It was a mad night.
And you know, since then there were all of our stories about
what actually happened on the night, which we were all I
think, I think by the time the 4th go back then I was on the
coffee table waking the whole house up.
So but, but actually since then,you know, just just scrolling
through social media, just the videos that are on there and

(02:11):
everybody else. And I have spent quite a bit of
time over the last 40 hours or so trying to work out where
Scotland might be playing. Of course it's a complete
lottery and how my brother and Iare going to be able to get
there. But that's a story for no idea.
But I think everyone, all those wonderful stories of Argentina
and 78 and how people sold everything to get there on sort
of guardian Lube boats and everything else, I think these

(02:32):
stories are going to be prevalent come next number.
But it's a fantastic opportunityand I was delighted actually
that I was in the office yesterday at DCMS and all the
staff screens had will be comingon them, which was I thought was
quite nice, but infiltrating theUK government departments as
well, which is a great advantage.
No, very, no, it's very good. Well, Ian, just to start off,

(02:53):
our listeners, because a lot of people less than are, you know,
working and various creative jobs, they might understand
exactly what your role is. But can and more in terms of the
Craven, did you say, but can youjust do a quick intro just in
like sort of layman's terms so people understand what you're
actually responsible for and. Yeah, certainly.
Well, I mean, I, I, I'm ministeracross 2 departments, but for
the relevance of this podcast, I'm the Minister of State and

(03:16):
the Department of Cultural Mediaand Sport.
The Department of Media support looks after just that, looks
after all of the cultural side of the of, of, of the UK
government's portfolio, all of the media of the sports side,
and that includes the creative industries, which is the arts as
well as everything else. So my role as part of DCMS is

(03:37):
the creative industries, the arts, media and cultural
diplomacy. So some of this of course, that
you talked about Scott there, some of the Scottish context has
devolved. But actually the
responsibilities across the whole of that, I never see them
as being devolved because we should just be working together
to resolve these kinds of issuesacross national boundaries.
But yes, that's what we look after.
And my biggest sort of custodialship, if you like, of that is

(03:59):
looking after the creative industry sector plan, which is
the UK government's industrial strategy of how we grow the
sector. And as I always say, an
introduction to any of these issues when I'm talking about
the portfolios, we, there's not a country in the world that
would give the right arm for their creative industries.
And it's something that is dealing the kind of this country
and some of them very, very keennot only just to maintain but

(04:20):
also to to, to, to cherish, to doctor and to grow.
And that's what the plan's all about.
Definitely. Well, there's lots to ask in and
get into, but something we always ask our guests to begin
with normally, and we have people that are sort of working
creative careers in various wayson the podcast.
But do you have like an early memory or connection to
something creative? It was it like a film or a bit
of music that you and your youthremember particularly connecting

(04:43):
to? Yeah, I mean, I tell the story
quite a bit. I, I lived a 20 minute bus ride
away from the Edinburgh festivals, but with, you know,
the access to them could have been, they could have been on
the moon. And really the only interaction
I had with Edinburgh festivals growing up was the fact that
made the buses run late. So you know, it's and that that

(05:03):
feeds into myself and the Secretary of State we said, and
in terms of what we want to try to achieve in the arts, because
I mean, this podcast called get a real job.
But I'm sure if anybody who I grew up said, I want to go to
the creative industries, that would be the exactly the
response you got from parents and maybe even teachers as
though don't do that. Go get yourself a real job.
And but you know, there's no doubt that feeds into the

(05:23):
Kative. And this is, you know, Saturday
night television in our house was something that was very,
very much something that broughtthe whole family together.
We all watched and we'll be looking very, very occasionally
when we can afford to go to the cinema.
And so I think the very first thing I went to see with my mom
was an American tale that the cart.
I think it was the first of animated cartoon, modern
animated cartoon. So, you know, various bits and

(05:45):
pieces of that kind of stuff. We're very, very interested in
sport, of course, as a family, but you know, in terms of access
to the arts in particular and culture.
And it was something that we, we, you know, what, given access
to and didn't really think we should have access to it.
So most of my cultural and musical attachments came from
school, really. And that's really interesting

(06:08):
you say that like growing up in sort of and so, so close to such
a big festival in Edinburgh, butfeeling quite detached, like
from in a way that, you know, interms of accessibility and just
like you don't belong to that world.
I think it's something I've felta lot, especially working in TV
as a working class creative, like go into the BBC Scotland
office, something to go, hell amI?

(06:28):
Like, do I mean it's that it's ingrained because.
And the whole name just got reached above the podcast.
It all comes from that. Yeah, feeling.
So, you know, it's interesting you say that you felt the same
grown up. And, and, and that's a real task
for us. I mean, the Secretary of State
has introduced and she became the sector of state arts
everywhere. And you know, we've talked for
decades about how you get peoplefrom more deprived backgrounds

(06:49):
and underrepresented backgroundsand to the creative industries.
And it has got a lot better. But actually, I still think it's
pretty impenetrable. And I think we need to try and
find, find tangible ways of making sure that there is arts
and access The Cave industries for everyone because there's,
there's, there's talent everywhere, but opportunity
there is no so. And how do we crack that?
But determined to try and at least make some inroads.

(07:12):
Yeah, definitely. And it's very refreshing to, you
know, hear the government talking about this and
acknowledging it. And I mean, it's a good
opportunity to talk about discover creative careers and
some of the initiatives that youguys have launched recently.
I was quite interested in reading it because it talks
about demystifying The Cave industries.
And that's actually the byline of this podcast.
It's all about demystifying the creative industries, and I've
been doing this for nearly five years and it's all about helping

(07:33):
people understand various careers and stuff.
So I enjoyed reading the brief. And if yeah, do you want to sort
of explain a bit about it? Yeah.
I mean we, we launched this at the Corp Live Arena and
Manchester. And actually the reason we did
that was because they have a really great programme of
getting underrepresented groups and underprivileged backgrounds
into the Corp Live Arena to showthem what how you can access the

(07:57):
creative industries. Whether you want to be on the
the mainstage in front of 20,000where they want to be
entertaining in some of the VIP suites or whether you want to be
working in the creative industries in terms of the back,
the back office staff or the production side of it.
So we will launch it there because we know, we know that a
thud of young people really relate to pursue an interest in
a job indicative industries. But nearly 1/2 of those don't

(08:19):
really know how to do that, don't think it's for them.
The demystifying it is all part of that process.
And I think when you talk about creative industries, people are
not quite sure what you mean. And it does span everything
from, you know, music and high end festivals all the way
through to advertising, which isthe third biggest part of the
creative industries and the whole computer games, all of

(08:41):
those kinds of issues, the arts.And therefore it's very, very
broad. There's a huge number of of
wonderful accesses in there. And I remember somebody once
telling me that one of the one of the highest paid jobs in film
are hairdressers. And I went to see the set of not

(09:02):
even sure I'm allowed to say I went to see the set of it.
But I went to see the set of a major Marvel production that's
happening at the moment at Pinewood Studios.
And there was someday there cutting wood and putting up
canopies on top of windows on the actual set to make it look
like new, like Manhattan. And it was just shortly after
actually, they were filming in Glasgow and I said to the guys,
you know, how do you enjoy your job?

(09:24):
What is it you're doing? And there were joiners and there
were set designers. And one of the guys turned out
to me and said, I've always wanted to be a joiner.
And actually, if you want to be a well paid joiner and you want
to do join the and it's exciting, why not work in films?
And I think it's that that demystifying it in terms of all
the jobs that are available and all the jobs are much sought
after. They've got big, big holes and
the kind of skill set that they require for these kind of set

(09:47):
building, hairdressers, makeup artists, technicians,
electricians, all of that stuff.And, and why not?
If you want to be a an electrician, why not be an
electrician on Spider Man? No, I think growing up though, a
lot of if you, especially for me, like I was always interested
in film and TV, but the only jobs I knew existed were like

(10:07):
acting direct in a movie, maybe writing.
Like all three of those are, youknow, very hard jobs to do and
get, but you don't actually understand that there's all
these various rules that exist. I mean, I'm a script that I
didn't have a clue what script that I was until I did an
internship and free back to and stuff.
So I think if if kids knew aboutthese jobs from a younger age,
they might take more of an interest.

(10:29):
And it was interesting to see the research behind this
campaign and what identified those gaps and stuff as well,
like. The research bank campaign was
was was really powerful because the research came from the young
people who were actually expressing an interest in trying
to get in. So it's exactly what you've just
said. You know your script editor but
had no idea how to get into. And it was only because when you
did an internship, I met a younggirl who was assistant head of

(10:52):
security at Pinewood Studios, and she was a stakeholder
liaison. And she only got into it because
she had done some kind of event with Disney Plus where they were
trying to get people involved and met somebody there who met,
who knew someone who got into it.
And she'd been trying for years.So we've partnered up with
screen skills with UCAS. Of course you do the university
placements, Creative UK, Channel4, Netflix, these big

(11:15):
organisations, and they are now providing us with the platforms
to get people in these entry points because there is no way
you're ever going to go as an entry point and as a script
editor. But your entry points are other
ways through so that you can lift your horizons to see what's
available and what your skill sets are, you know?
And had that not been the case for you, your talents as a
script editor would have been lost.
And that's why we always say there's talent everywhere, but

(11:36):
opportunity not everywhere. And it's an interesting one and
I've, I've kind of touched on this a bit later on, because
it's a difficult time for a lot of freelancers.
And I think there's also as oncepeople get in, it's also hard to
then sustain that career. And we'll chat about that.
But in terms of the Discover Creative Careers campaign as
well, like it's also identifyingregionalities and as a sort of

(11:56):
making sure people realise that there's actually opportunities
near where they live. Because I think a lot of people
think, especially as a Scottish person growing up and five, like
you're told that you need to move to London to make it a
Korean TV. And I very adamantly stayed in
Scotland to to try and make clear here.
But there'll be lots of people across the UK that feel that
like whether they're in Cornwall, Manchester or, you
know, Shetland, whatever they are, like they might have that

(12:16):
thing I need to move from where I grew up to.
Yeah, and I'll give you, I'll give you an example.
When I was either late high school or early university, one
of my friends was offered a cabin, a person traineeship with
the BBC. It paid like nothing.
And yet they had to live in London and they they just
couldn't, they couldn't take it up because they had no way of

(12:38):
supporting themselves and the salary they got for being that
trainee. Can you imagine someone who, as
a creative who wants to get involved in television and
you're offered a job with the BBC which could open up your
entire life to that kind of opportunity and you can't take
it because you can't afford to live in London?
I mean that's devastating. So that's why, you know, we put
a lot of effort into making sureour public sector broadcasters

(13:00):
in particular have quotas for filming across the UK.
The Channel 4 always have a big base in Glasgow, the BBC is
right across the country and other broadcasters like STV,
independent production companies, Salford and
Manchester. So tried to get production, but
also the job opportunities out of London, the southeast, into
the rich nations and regions is really important.

(13:20):
And it works because the ecosystems then grow, which
provides more opportunities. And that's why I think the
diversity things so important because it is an incubator for
talent. Yeah.
And it's a huge loss and I thinkthere's been quite a lot of
frustration in Scotland and different parts of the region
that that change isn't going fast enough and it is hard.
I know you can only do so much as well at a time, but I think

(13:42):
there's still a frustration thata lot of things are, you know,
still quite London centric. And there was the stuff for the
traitors that came out recently and all that.
So it's good to hear the government like acknowledge it
and understand that there's still work to do their own
things as well. Oh, there's, there's lots of
what to do there. I mean, nobody's nob this
cracked it. But we can do as much regulation
as we want to do. But I see it's only when those

(14:02):
big productions come that you that you do and that you see it.
And Outlander of course has beenhuge in terms of ecosystem.
And I think one of the one of the points is really, really
important to emphasise is the importance of our public sector
broadcasters. That equals some without the BBC
in particular, but also Channel 4 and ITV, Stoke STV, you know,

(14:22):
those opportunities would not exist, those ecosystems would
not exist. So it's all underpinned by a
public sector broadcasters. I'm not quite sure there's a
public acknowledgement of that on a public understanding of
that. No, definitely.
It's, I mean, especially the last few weeks, it's been a very
bad price for the BBC. And I think I mean, I'm always
talking very positively about the BBC in terms of what the

(14:45):
PBS, you know, they all provide such a service and we need them
in this country for, for our whole industry.
Like if we didn't have the public broadcasters, you
wouldn't have big shows on Netflix because that's where I
just say the talent pipeline comes from, so.
Exactly. And, and if you think about the,
the difficulties the BBC have had, the organisations that have
come out defending the BBC, the strongest are your Netflix is,

(15:05):
and I know the public sector broadcasters because they know
the ecosystem needs them. And you know, certainly aside
the, the comparison, if you, if you look at the difficulties the
BBC have had over the last few weeks and then, you know, let's
go back to a conversation that very start Tuesday night.
You know, it was a fee to air, it was on BBC Scotland, but it
was on BBC 2A network as well across the whole of the UK.

(15:28):
So audiences right across Scotland where you're in a pub
watching it on your own or with family, brought the whole nation
together around Scotland's WorldCup campaign.
And these are the kind of memories that families will have
for generations to come or maybefor the entirety of their lives,
brought to you by the BBC, who can only really do that at a
public sector broadcaster. So yes, the BBC have had

(15:49):
difficulties in recent times andyes, they're very serious and
yes, have to be resolved. But actually, Tuesday night's
what the BBC's all about. Yeah, 100%.
It's so good to have commentary and memories like that as well.
It's just you can't. Yeah, it's it's as I don't even
have words because I'm still notover that amazing night.
Yeah, and it's not, it's not disrespect to other broadcasters

(16:12):
that would have had behind the paywall, but that big national
sporting moment that's been talked about is one of the
biggest national sporting moments ever in a Scottish
context. Actually, it was free to air so
the entire nation could enjoy atthe same time.
And all those little clips you don't see on social media of
people dancing on their tables, wrecking the living rooms, you
know, pubs being in complete chaos at all because it was free

(16:36):
to air and on the screens. Yeah, definitely.
And and which is a great thing and just on discover creative
careers and some of the other stuff today, I want to kind of
go back to class as well, which would mean it's been the theme
of our whole conversation so far.
It's really prevalent, but there's been quite a lot of
people working in The Cave industries often feel if you
come from work class back and it's it's just very hard to fit

(16:57):
in. As I touched on at the start.
I mean, Eddie Marson, who's quite a clean British actor,
recently described for actors that if you don't come from a
like privileged background, you have to be extraordinary to even
have a chance to make that. Whereas if you come from a more
privileged background, you can get away with maybe mediocre.
And I think quite a lot of creatives feel like that.
So is is there like an sort of anything else you guys are doing

(17:18):
around class particularly to help people feel that they can
not only bridge that gap but have a sustainable career?
Yeah. And and that's what the the
Discover creative industry programme is all about actually.
It's about getting to the it's about geography, but it's also
about socio economic situation. It's also about under
representation. And we launched the campaign, as

(17:39):
I said, at a Corp live in Manchester with an organisation
who does exactly that, takes people from under pressure,
privileged backers who want to be the creative industries and
shows them what the opportunities are and how they
can help them on that ladder. And making those connections
between the industry and those kinds of organisations.
So there can be a bridge betweenthe person and the jobs and the
opportunities that are available.
So and these things are not unique to the creative

(18:02):
industries, although they're much more prevalent in the
creative industries. And I think you're right to talk
about, you know, what Eddie Marshall said in terms of the
expectation and the perception of particularly the acting
profession. You know, a lot of people have
broken through that more recently.
I, I, I think is that enough? Probably not.
But there is a real drive for unique voices now in terms of

(18:24):
acting. And I suppose you had McGregor's
journey, if you like, in terms of where he's came from and,
and, and the kind of international star he knows.
But I think the bottom line hereis there's few and far between.
And how do we make, how do we unlock that talent?
And there's maybe a much more ofa, there is a perception and a
cultural issue, but maybe there's also much more of a
practical issue. As you said right at the start,

(18:45):
you know, where does the clear pathway, how do you pay your
rent or your mortgage? You know, how do you stop?
People say, well, Luke, you're afledgling actor, but you've got
to pay your bills, go get yourself a real job.
You know, so there's those kindsof structural issues around as
well that if you are from a privileged back then you have
the resources, you know, by example of the training camera

(19:05):
internship at the BBC. If somebody had the resources,
they were just taking it up and probably be a top camera person,
the BBC now on international films or whatever.
So there is that kind of side ofit and that's not easy to crack.
But you know, as a government, we're looking very much at how
we do this to how we support people through and we're just
about to appoint a freelance champion because freelancing is

(19:26):
obviously much more precarious than a salary job in that sense.
So all of these things are complicated, but we're very
committed to trying to find a way of resolving them.
Yeah, I want to quickly follow up on that freelancer thing
because I've quite a lot of my listeners would would be
frustrated with me, but then askyou about freelancing because
especially in TV and film at themoment nearly 50% of our

(19:47):
industry content that I've got quite recent back to survey.
I will work. I mean, I'm in position where
I'm going for a redundancy the moment forever city obviously
ending a lot of people do feel quite hopeless.
There's I think that is quite onthe ground.
I don't always think this comes across from the top up in TV,
but I think on the ground there's quite a little morale at
the moment. People are feeling quite.
Desponding quite worried about their future and stuff.

(20:08):
There's a lot of people at work like as as they're like, as well
as the freelancer thing like as.Have you guys got like ideas and
stuff of ways we can better helpfreelancers especially in this
sort of screen sector? Yeah.
And this is the big problem because actually the whole
screen sector as your example puts it has relies on
freelancing because that's wherethe industry works.

(20:29):
I mean, you couldn't possibly have AI don't know an editor who
wasn't on a freelance contract because the work is up and down.
The projects do come and go. And that's the way the whole
industry works. There isn't a perm unless you're
on a perm that returning series,of course.
And in that sense, so, so freelancing works for the
industry and freelancing works for the people in the industry.

(20:49):
But how do you make sure that freelancing is a, is a, is a
method of working, helps and works for people.
And that's what we've established industry forums.
We want this freelancing champion to get right underneath
the bonnet of it. We want the industry to sign up
to, you know, the best practisesand all those issues.
We want to be tackling late payments, which is a huge issue,

(21:10):
making sure people are getting paid at the time they need to
get paid for it. We need to make sure that people
has can see a pathway towards other contracts.
And I suppose the best thing forthe freelancing industry and
freelancers is to have a thriving, vibrant industry where
there's lots of work, a pathway through as a career and
smoothing out those peaks and troughs, if you like.

(21:32):
So as a government, what we're trying to do with the sector
plan is to grow the industry to do exactly that.
So we have the most one of the most successful TV and film and
screen industries in the world, but it is cyclical.
And how do we make sure that's that those peaks and troughs are
smoothed out. And that's why we want to grow
the sector. We want to make sure those clear
paths are much stronger well to work the set through the fields

(21:53):
champion to make sure people areprotected.
Our trade unions are very good in the sector back to a very
good the sector. The National Union of
Journalists Equity, you know, they are very much strong
champions for their members in terms of that that that that
that payments and those that good quality sort of
self-employment. So there's a lot of stuff that
government can do, but I think the best thing we can do apart

(22:14):
from the dots and bolts of freelancing is actually to make
sure the industry is growing andhealthy and the opportunities
that are available. Because that makes the
freelancing part of it much easier to achieve.
And then just make sure people are paid properly and paid
fairly and paid on time. Yeah.
In terms of the freelancing champion, then, how would that
sort of work? Is that just having someday like

(22:34):
there that represents freelancers and maybe it's a bit
more connected to them directly?Yeah, connected to freelancers
directly, but also connect to the industry.
So the, the, the, the, the fuel as champion would set
essentially with government, with the industry, with
freelancers themselves and find where the problems are in the
industry, if I know how this could be resolved and
essentially just be the voice. So part of the problem is that

(22:58):
freelancers are are have have have, have less volume in terms
of voice than maybe permanent employees and otherwise because
they have permanent contracts, they have a whole body of
employment law behind them, etcetera.
So freelance has become about much more precarious.
So it's about trying to find ways of making sure that the
feel of the whole freelancing industry has a much more stable

(23:18):
and sustainable future. So that's that Freelance
Champion will be announced relatively shortly and I'm
looking forward to that person really getting onto the under
the border and tells things whatgovernment can subsequently do
and what industry can do to makefreelancers much more stable.
Yeah. No, I think there'll be a lot of
our lessons are very much, you know, welcome that.
And in terms of like sort of what the gaps and stuff is,

(23:43):
obviously the guys as we talked about a lot as well and the
growth that like the crave industries bring is brilliant.
But I think there's obviously wetalked about River City and
other like the we'd lost quite alot of these ecosystems, things
like Holby City doctors like theI think there's quite a feeling
on the ground sometimes that there's lower budget things have
sort of fallen away and it's do we have these big cities?

(24:04):
Like is there something your department's discussed and as a
way we can get more low budget things back in our like have
more opportunities for people, especially at the start or the
middle of their career? Yeah, I, I think so.
And you know, we've, we've set up a significant number of
funds, the £150 million indicative Places growth fund,
which is straight into Solve regionalization, the £75 million

(24:27):
fund that we've got now for the screen growth package.
I mean, these are, these are bigfunds.
But ultimately and what you touch on there in terms of those
returning series and those lowerbudget stuff and even the higher
risky stuff is done by a public sector broadcasters.
So without without having those,I mean there's no way that,

(24:49):
although to be fair, they do, but it's much more difficult for
a Netflix or an Apple TV and an Amazon to invest in something
that's sort of lower budget and higher risk.
And I suppose it feeds into, andI don't mean to say as if I'm
being too sort of philosophical about this, but it feeds into
how we tell the story of ourselves.
And that's what, you know, mosquito industry is all about.
It's about telling stories. It's about the only people are

(25:12):
the people that are most capableof telling those stories about
ourselves and our public sector broadcasters, particularly the
BBC. So what we need to do through
the charter review, which happens in 2027 for the next 10
years, is to make sure we have astable, sustainable, well funded
BBC. Because unless you get to those
three things, the BBC can't be making those lower budget,
higher risk programmes, which are really the, the, the

(25:34):
grassroots of the ecosystem of the creative industries.
If we can do that, then we get to a position that where the
whole industry is much more buoyant and, you know, in terms
of your own circumstances, you end up with a returning series
that is much more low budget. So you know, there's lots of
thing the government have done the the tax credit system for
picking for high end drama has really helped get some of those

(25:55):
projects off the ground. And we're very much, we're very
much cherish those. The computer games industry is
growing all the time and of course it's all the same talent
that is required for computer games As for film and TV.
The advertising industry, whilstunder a bit of pressure is
innovative and do some of that stuff, that sort of lower budget
stuff as well. So there's lots of things that

(26:17):
are going on and and so the commitment to maintaining the
tax credits, the commitment to public sector broadcasting, the
commitment to making sure that our public sector broadcast can
work regionally and do those high risk, low budget stuff to
tell the story of the country and of the nation of the regions
is really important to us and something that we're going to
drive forward to the charter andyou.
Speaking of the charter actuallyin as well, and somebody pointed

(26:39):
out to me yesterday when I was, I was researching for our chat
today that they were saying thatthere's not actually a mention
of freelancers in the last charter that was done.
Is that something do you think that can hopefully be mentioned
in the in the new charter renewal, like actually directly
mentioned in Freelancers in it? Because obviously they are a big
part of the BBC in the public broadcasting.
The, the, the green, the green paper for charter renewal will

(27:01):
be launched shortly, which is the, there's a, there's a long
legal process up to 27, which when the new charter comes in
and it's obviously a royal charter.
So it's, it's a process that hasto happen with the, with, with,
with the king as well. So the, the green paper is the
start of that formal process. And I'm trying to think of,
there's a mention of freelancers, the green paper.

(27:22):
But if there's not, it's something that you should make
sure that you do. And I'm sure the, the new feel
as champion will do is to insert.
And this is, this is this sort of organic process.
And I don't see this as being sort of something that's done
and dusted by government or by the BBC or a stitch up or
anything. I want it to be an organic
process where people bring in the issues that are much more
prevalent to the BBC today than they were 10 years ago, the last

(27:42):
charter renewal. So yeah, I mean, please do come
forward with those kind of proposals.
And if any of your listeners when they see the Green Paper
think there should be there. So it should be that the BBC
should be responsible for this or maybe a little bit less of
that, more of one of the other. Do come forward as an open and
organic consultation. We wanted.
We need to get this right because it's it's also, it's got
to be right for the next 10 years, but it's also got to be

(28:04):
dynamic enough to deal with whatthe BBC will look like in 2037
as opposed to 2027. And even thinking about 2027,
the whole industry is going to be changed by then.
So think about the change. It's going to happen by 2037.
That'll be considerable. So please make sure that people
are engaged in that process and coming forward their own ideas.
Yeah, that's my actually sort ofSpanish rather brief, but we're

(28:26):
talking about changing stuff there.
I'm curious your thoughts on AI quickly as well, how that might
affect the creative industry. Quite a lot of people worried
about I was a lot people are excited by it's a certainly a
nuanced one, But like how what'syour personal feeling about AI?
Is this something you guys are? Well, of course you we will be
talking about it, I'm sure. But do you see it like having a
negative or positive impact on the crime industry?

(28:47):
Well, we get it's probably both.I mean, there's no doubt that
the industry will benefit hugelyfrom AI technologies and they're
using them already, whether it'dbe in some production or
otherwise, computer game production, graphics, etcetera.
So AI is very much embedded intothe industry already and
developing all the time. The AI that we were using just
yesterday will be different fromthe AI that we'll use tomorrow.

(29:10):
And therefore it's a really goodopportunity for the industry,
particularly in the creative industries to to embrace embed
and help develop AI. But there is a downside to all
of that of course, particularly through the concerns people have
with employment. But I've always been off the
view that AI is not going to replace employees or freelancers
in that sense. What's going to happen is

(29:31):
probably freelancers and employees that use AI will be
will replace the ones that can or don't in that sense.
So it's a really big opportunitythat we have to embrace because
it's going to we want to embraceit rather than being done to us
and making sure we manage that process properly.
So they wholly I copyright debate is very much at the top
of the agenda. The more and they have to find a

(29:52):
way through that because, you know, we have to make sure that
our talent and is, is, is is protected for today.
But also future talent that's coming through needs to have a
remuneration that we've we've talked about already.
So that has to be done. So yeah, so I think AI is the
biggest single generational opportunity we've had a long
time. But actually the downsides that

(30:14):
have to be managed very, very carefully.
Government has to be a key role in.
That yeah, definitely I think people see the Coca-Cola advert
for example and they're quite they get quite scared but as you
say, there's lots of opportunities as well like it
gives people from a working class background deck like, you
know running this podcast, I don't I sometimes now use I have
a research or to help like do mysocial media posting it it's

(30:35):
like it does it is very useful for stuff like that so there's.
And actually, if you think aboutthat though, in the context of
how you use it, what it's doing in terms of helping you with
your research is, is then subsequently allowing you to
spend more time on doing what you do best.
So you know, as a creator or anyprocess, there's always a big

(30:57):
administrative and bureaucratic part set, which takes up the
time of you not being able to bea creator.
So if AI can help you for those administrative bureaucratic
tasks, even for the research that allegedly fee up to do more
of these podcasts, get more intothe production and the post
production etcetera, then that'sall to the good.
But the downside of that is obviously you know the is well

(31:19):
documented the downsides of AI. So the we do we have to strike a
balance but the but I think we should be on the front foot and
positive about the opportunities.
Definitely, no, there's, there'sdefinitely positives there.
And yeah, I think obviously as long as we can sort of protect
our workers and freelancers frompotentially losing worker
opportunities as well. I also want to ask you because

(31:41):
I'm obviously government always get quite a bad, can often get
quite a bad press and we don't always hear about some of the
positive things that are actually happening.
So I'm curious like, well, what the your sort of department has
maybe done recently that we might not have heard about in
the press? About probably everything
because the, you know, the, the,the, the, we live in a very

(32:02):
feeble political environment at the moment.
But you know, the, the spending review last year concentrated on
our industrial strategy. The Creative Industry Sector
Plan is one of the key 8 strategies.
As part of that industrial strategy invested a lot of money
in the industry, £380 billion. And it's putting money into
talent, into skills, into supporting music and supporting

(32:25):
TV and film, all of those kinds of issues.
This week, for example, we've announced the policy which will
bring forward legislation on very soon for ticket touting,
which would be very prevalent topeople who's doing live events
across the creative industries and selling tickets.
So, you know, the resellers of those tickets could they have to
be done at face value, service charges will be capped and

(32:46):
that's just to stop funds being ripped off.
So it's a really positive story and what fans have been selling
us for years. They don't want to be spending
£2000 for bots to be able to buyup tickets for resets to then
sell them on highly effective prices.
So that's a good big thing that's happened this week.
We've got the the ticket levies doing very well.
That's the voluntary pound on a ticket that you buy for a reader

(33:07):
or concert show that goes straight back into the Live
Music Trust, which is helping grassroots and helping venues
and helping the next generation.That's working incredibly well.
So these are really positive stories.
And so, you know, government does positive stuff all the
time. Getting those kind of things out
is difficult. And I see the BBC problems at
the moment, which being a huge problem for government as being

(33:29):
a big, big opportunity for the BBC, but us to readdress what it
wants to do and for us to be much more positive about the
story. It tells the ecosystem of the
creative industry. So there's lots of stuff that
goes on, you know, talking aboutthis Discover creative career
stuff is a is a great news story.
And I would encourage anybody tolook it up and if they're
interested, get involved and allthose kinds of issues.

(33:50):
So yes, the government's always about the money and it's always
about the bad things. But actually there's lots of
great stuff every single day that every single person who
works in DCMS is that a politician is official.
I tried to do to advance the industry, to improve the
industry and to help people who work within it.
Yeah. What would you just expand on
that, Ian? What would you and the
departments like? What would you have liked to

(34:12):
have achieved by the end of thiscurrent parliament and with the
career industries? I mean, it's only like 3.
It's gone fast. It's like what, free now, but
years now. It's mad.
But. Yeah.
Like to achieve. You know, from a department
perspective, I mean, I've only been in this job 10 weeks and
you know, if, if, if, if, if, when I leave this job, whatever
that might be, whether it be before the next general election

(34:32):
or, or after or whatever, if we've, if we've got the BBC on a
sustainable footing the next decade, that would be a big
thing. If we've delivered the either
all or we're on the on track of delivering all of our sector
plants, it's really positive forcreative industries.
That would be a great step forward and really set them up
for the future. If we can make if one more kid

(34:55):
could get access to the industryor access to the arts that
didn't get before, then success is one more than we had.
But you know, we want 10s of thousands of 1,000,000 more.
And and if we could just have a country with the the Secretary
of State. And I very much believe in this
together, that the creative industries are the glue that
holds the country together, the glue that holds our committees

(35:16):
together. Go back to Tuesday night, you
know, go back to the big momentson television, go back to the
big films that we've seen, go back to the big music events, go
back to the the bio tapestry is coming up.
A huge event for the country in terms of connecting people to
the arts. So when you put all of that
together, DC message department and politicians within it like

(35:40):
myself are in charge of the creative industries, has a real
opportunity here to change the country because it's the glue
that holds the country together.And very much keen to be able to
advance that. Without our creative industries,
without our public sector broadcasters, I think our lives
would be very much diminished and it's not worth thinking
about what that would look like.So let's be positive about the
industry. Let's grow it and doctorate and

(36:01):
cherish it and get more people involved.
Yeah, definitely. No, I think as you say, it is
important to tell that story andit feels very bleak at the
moment, does feel quite like thestory of the country feels quite
negative. So I think there's I just,
there's an opportunity there forthe creative industries to try
and tell a more positive story and.
Yeah, just to come. It's not just the the story of

(36:21):
the country, maybe be quite negative, but other people who
want to be negative about the country want to tell that story.
They want to rewrite history so that they can shape the future
in a very negative way. And we just can't allow that to
happen because that's not the story of our past.
It will be the story of our future.
So we're very much determined that the stories that we tell in
10 years time about what the country is like are very much

(36:42):
positive stories about the country we want to see rather
the country we want our detractors to to develop.
Yeah, definitely. I'm sure you've been asked this
plenty of times, Ian, and it's abit of a cliche question, but if
you had a magic wand and you were able to change one thing
tomorrow by the Crave Industries, what would it be?
Well, a great question. If I had a magic wand to wave

(37:04):
and change one thing about the creative industries, what would
it be? Gosh, I think, I think access.
I think if I could, if I could wave a magic wand that could
allow a dozen people coming out of high school to get direct
access into the creative industries for sustainable

(37:24):
careers, I would do that. And if we can get to the seven
and a half million people that we've committed to being
upscaling and AI and tech, and if we can get, you know, a
fraction of the people we want to try and reach that feet that
nearly 4 million people want to try and reach with the creative
Discover Creative Careers campaign and get a fraction of

(37:46):
them involved the sustainable careers that could be the talent
of the future, then alter the better.
But I'll I'll wave that word anyday of the week.
I'm shocked because I think Angela Gryphon, one of the
people who was talking in the research for Discover Crave
careers campaign and a shock to sorry, I talked about how like
10% of the people working aroundthe camera from a working class

(38:06):
background that I'm just like that can't that's so low.
Like that just can't be true. But like that, that kind of is
reality. So.
And the really, the really important stuff for us is that,
you know, talent isn't based on how much money your parents
earn, your talents based on your, your, your, your inherent
genetic creativity. And therefore, if we want our

(38:30):
creative industries to thrive, then the people who have the
talent and the creative talent, it doesn't matter where you're
from, who you are or how much you earn.
And that your creativity, it transcends all of that.
So the, the task for us is to find that talent and there's
maybe a little story your, your listeners might be interested

(38:51):
in. But I met with the gaming
industry and the chief executivenext said to be, you know, there
is no doubt that the political narrative and the national
narrative is all these 14 to 6 year olds, mainly boys, their
bedrooms building computer gamesis a bad thing.
Actually, they're hugely creative.
They're adding quite a bit of money out of it and they're
developing the games of the future that people want to play.

(39:13):
So how do we get them out of their bedrooms and industry and
then to careers and that kind ofcreative way?
And he's absolutely right. And that's not be happening in
every sector and every part of the creative industries right
across the country. So it's our job to try and find
the pathways to unlock that. And that's why the Discover
Creative Industries is all creative is all part of that.
It's how you lift people's horizons and eyes to see there

(39:35):
are opportunities out there and here are the pathways that you
can be trying to walk along to get there.
And that's all of our jobs to do.
But government could provide thesort of framework for it.
No, definitely. I think it's, it's nice to turn
someone like that into a positive as well because there's
that opportunity like community,the arts can allow us to like
create communities. A lot of you know, local

(39:57):
shopping centres that are maybe quite like abandoned now, like
where I grew up in garden officeat the shopping centre there is
not very nice, but there's surely like an opportunity to
get more places open that we canhave art spaces or.
You know, people can come together and play games and
create stuff, for example, and play music and things.
So there are absolutely lots of stuff we can do.
That and there's lots of communities up and down the
whole of the UK that have none of that public space.

(40:18):
So how do we, how do we find that public space as a adult
social club, as a closed down shop, as a community centre
that's not been used for a whileas it just re provisioning a
library or a community hub? What?
What is it that allows you to insert the creative industries
into that public space process? Because actually there'll be a

(40:39):
lot of communities up there, thecountry that either have nothing
or the only thing they have thatis a creative space will be the
local cinema. No, for sure.
And and even that like you know,it's quite expensive, like to go
to theatre and cinema and thingsbecause of the cost of living
these places need to make 11, but a lot of people are priced
there that as well. So it's a whole other issue as
well. Yeah.
And you know, and the context ofthe the festivals and others,

(41:01):
there's a real balance for them to strike as they want as much
access as possible, but a lot ofeffort into you know, 5 LB
tickets, free tickets, school access, etcetera, etcetera,
etcetera. The problem being that they're
balancing that off whether they have a spreadsheet at the end of
the day that they have to balance because of the amount of
money that's at the arts. So there's a big, there's a
balancing thing for them to do. They do as much as they can, but

(41:23):
until you put the arts on a sustainable footing with
sustainable funding as well, youend up in a situation where they
can only do as much as they could do with their own
spreadsheet. So there's a little bit of a
downward spiral there. So we need to try and find a way
of encouraging that they could really do, is to make sure those
organisations that are right at the heart of it can do it for
us, you. Know definitely I've started to

(41:44):
wrap things up in because I knowit when they have time but I
have something I ask all my guests on this podcast and I'm
sure as a politician that's probably is difficult but how do
you sort of look after your mental well-being and stuff I
asked us to create people in their freelancers but the hatred
towards politicians is well I mean you'll have experienced it
yourself but of course but how do you sort of like protect your

(42:05):
mental health special and well I've.
Got it's a good question. Actually, it was, it was, it was
men's mental health day yesterday and Parliament all
weeks been doing stuff and therewas a tremendous question of
Prime Minister's Questions by one of my Libra colleagues who
just stood up and talked about his mental health.
He's I've never done this beforeand we should all do it more
like I've got a 5 year old daughter and a 10 month old
daughter. So, you know, they keep your,

(42:26):
your spirits high and also, you know, it's just the stuff you
enjoy. I spent a lot of time watching
sports. Tuesday night was a great fill
up for us all. You know, expected to be very,
very down on Wednesday morning and it was completely opposite.
So like, I look after mental health just by actually
essentially don't take things too seriously.
Having the young family really, really helps, keeps you, keeps
you well grounded. And look, I would just encourage

(42:48):
anyone, particularly men who arefreelancers are a good part of
that because it's very isolating.
It's just taught people to be part of it.
And the big campaign this week for Mental Health week has been,
you know, the biggest killer of men under 40 is suicide.
So go there and talk about it. Yeah, definitely.

(43:10):
Ian, thank you very much for your time this morning.
I really appreciate. I know you'd only been in this
job for 10 weeks as well. So I appreciate you answering
some of the questions. I've chucked you away and you
know, thank you for for coming on.
Just get real job my. Pleasure to keep up the good
work. Maybe, maybe see you in America.
Hopefully, hopefully we'd all been looking at flights so.
Absolutely. Thanks very much, Jamie.
Nice to speak to you.

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EP. 183 - 'The Creative Industries Minister' Ian Murray MP

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}EP. 183 - 'The Creative Industries Minister' Ian Murray MP