EP. 184 - ‘The Future of Indie Filmmaking' with Hutch.on.Film - Just Get A Real Job

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi, John Film, thank you very, very much for coming on.
Just get a real job. I'm of course, Jim McKinley, the
host of this podcast, if anyone is listening for the first time.
But how's it going? Thank you for coming on this on
our Monday afternoon. Much appreciated.
Thank you on a cold and dreary Monday afternoon as we come into
the the winter months. Yeah, bit grim, but what a what
a lovely sunny conversation to have about the the film and TV

(00:24):
industry. I'm sure maybe it could be.
It could be. We'll talk about how it could
be. It's a very positive and upbeat
time at the moment. You totally didn't post a video
yesterday about the trouble thatthe the UK TV industry is that
at the moment. But Hutch, just for the purpose
of this, you, you're a filmmaker, you're an exec, you
run quite a big online film community now.

(00:44):
You've been posted and quite regularly with Tech talk,
Instagram across social media, really using that to create a
brand for yourself. It's really interesting.
I just met you through Tech Talkand from starting to post more
regularly on it and you very kindly share from my videos
recently, which is greatly appreciated as well.
But just for our listeners, do you want to introduce yourself?
There's lots of quite excited toask you about today.
Yeah, of course. So I'm Hutch handle on Instagram

(01:07):
and tech talk is Hutch dot on dot film.
I've been in production for like15 like since I was 20, right?
And I'm nearly 40. So 1520 coming up in 20 years
and very much started, I imagine, like everybody does.
You know, I bought a camera and I started filming my friends who
are musicians, right? That was kind of how I got into

(01:27):
this space and then went througha period of like working on sort
of higher end commercials and music videos and that kind of
stuff in around London and took the opportunity to kind of use
the platform that I'd built there to pivot back into indie
film. And and then more recently, I
worked with an American company who was spending a fair amount
of money on film and TV programmes as a producer, head

(01:50):
of production, executive producer.
And I worked on 10s of millions of dollars worth of indie films,
got to network and kind of talk to some of the higher echelons
of, of Hollywood, which is really, really interesting and
seeing how the problems in that level of the industry mirrored
those that I had been going through with indie film, right.

(02:11):
Like it was staggering. But amongst that, that group of
projects includes Razor, which Iwas an executive producer for,
which was nominated for an Emmy in 2024.
Wow, So it's kind of interesting, like change of
worlds coming from like startingout filming friends music videos
and then suddenly finding yourself in like the more
Hollywood world. How did that actually happen?

(02:32):
Like how did you suddenly those bridges sort of crossover?
Well, it was really interesting company that I met because they
were a gaming company and they were trying to move into
content. And in the big content boom
right there was this post COVID,there was this enormous demand
for content, which kind of drew people into the into the
industry. And I think, you know, I was

(02:54):
definitely on a track where I'd worked on some big TV
commercials, I'd worked on some big brand campaigns and I'd
worked on a lot of indie films. But I definitely skipped a
couple of runs in that ladder and was kind of brought on board
into a company that was just going 100 miles an hour.
And when you're in a company like that and you just keep up,
like you just get more and more workload.

(03:14):
So, you know, I kind of joined knowing that I would be doing
some TV focused production and then ended up essentially
running the entire slate of films and working across that.
So there was that content drought.
There was a bit of luck. There was being in the right
place at the right time. And then there was also just
knowing the tricks of production, because getting a

(03:37):
production made and pitching a production in the 1st place,
they're two very different things.
And understanding, you know, oneof the things that I think the
company I was working for found most useful about me is that I
could very quickly break down like, was this a production that
they were trying to do bare bones, like scrappy?
Is this the minimum we could do it for?
Or they inflated this? Have they got a couple of extra

(03:57):
PA? Like where, where are they
hiding money in those budgets? And so that was kind of, I would
go in and be like, OK, if I was doing this, I would need XYZ
and, and kind of go from that perspective elective.
But yeah, I think it was just being around in that, in that
indie space, but also having a background of quite high end
productions on TV commercials and and whatnot.

(04:18):
I was able to kind of put those two together when they were
looking for somebody. Yeah.
Just, you know, when you, when you get into a company and you
just start running and, and people find out that you're
useful, you just get more and more responsibility, I think.
No, definitely this podcast is we have, I mean, a lot of our
listeners are imagine creatives and various spaces.
A lot of them want to work in film and TV and some of them are

(04:38):
currently working in that space.Just to sort of backtrack
slightly like and to how you gotstarted out and you're talking
about working on convention and stuff.
Like what sort of roles were youdoing in the build up to that?
Like were you like like APA shooting?
Were you like a director or are you like sort of a producer as
well or kind of all of all of them can?
I the way I like to talk about industry careers is one of two

(05:02):
tracks, right? You're either going in for the
industry track where you're trying to get on set as a runner
or, you know, APA and then you kind of work your way up in that
space. And then there is the other, the
other category, right, which is you're going out and doing it
yourself, right? You're shooting independent
films, you're shooting short films, you're shooting anything

(05:24):
with your friends, right? And I have very much apart from
my 1 brief stint where I went into the industry side of
things, I've mostly been in thisspace, right?
I remember this was probably 2011 two 1012 and I I remember
watching a load of content that was starting to appear on
YouTube, which just looked beautiful right there was

(05:46):
Blogotech was a was a really interesting channel that was
filming musicians and the work that they had just looked
beautifully cinematic. And when I found out that I was
shot on a DSLRI was like, this is this is really interesting.
And so I bought A at the time the, the bit, the good camera
was the Canon 5D Mark 2 and it would shoot 1080 video and it

(06:09):
looked beautiful, right? It looked, it looked cinematic
if you had the right lenses on it.
And I just started shooting my, my friends, right.
They were, I was in Brighton at music university and all of my
friends were musicians. I was like, oh, I could do live
sessions like Blogger tech. And so I did.
I just started shooting and uploading those things.
And then, you know, I, I think at the beginning I sort of

(06:31):
fancied myself as a director, maybe a director of photography,
right? I was, that's the route I was
going down. But nobody would pay me to do
that. But lots of people wanted me to
pay me to organise things, right.
And showing that you can do something in a show reel is a
really good way of going and being like, no, I've done that
before, right? There's that old adage in, in
that not pays you for something you haven't already done.

(06:51):
And so because I had already done those things, I could then
get work doing them. You know, I don't take £100
jobs, £250 jobs. And did a couple of years of
that, you know, shooting photos,shooting video, this kind of
blend of stuff mostly around musicians.
And then the jobs just started getting a bit bigger, right?
You'd, you'd get a client who'd bring you in for a very basic
first job. And then they'd be like, oh,

(07:13):
could you actually shoot this aswell?
And you'd step up a little bit and step up.
And that was kind of, I lived inthis freelance world just taking
basically anything. I think my speciality was making
things look very high end with like a crew of two, you know,
and just kind of going through that and then being around
London and getting in with the right marketing companies, the

(07:34):
right other production companiesjust kind of led to a whole lot
of work where, you know, we weredoing TV campaigns for
PlayStation and like we did thisbig campaign for Google.
And yeah, just, I never, at no point did I really know that
there was a way to get into the TV and film industry.
And I wasn't even really thinking about it, if I'm
perfectly honest. I was just kind of like, I have

(07:56):
this skill, I have this camera and I'm going to use that to
make money. And it wasn't until, I mean,
obviously I, I've loved film from a young age and I knew, you
know, the idea of working in thefilm industry was, was a dream.
But then I started getting approached because of the work
that I've been doing in London. I started getting approached by
people who are making short films.

(08:16):
And I think at that point in my career, I was earning enough
that going back and sort of trying the industry route into
film and TV was not appealing tome.
I'd sort of like, you know, I was, I was making enough money
to be like, no, I should, I should keep doing this.
But maybe I go in as, you know, like maybe I reposition myself
as a director. Maybe I, I start making my own

(08:39):
short films. And it was kind of around, you
know, 2019, just before the the lockdown that I did the most of
that kind of work. I was working on my own
projects. I was working with little
project teams that were doing stuff.
And we're mostly producing and shooting these things.
But this is this is kind of something that I'm constantly

(08:59):
talking to people who are like in the industry, right?
Hardcore have been in the industry since being a runner.
Like you can step out of that. You can go and make things
right. And making a short film makes
you a better runner. It makes you a better
Pennsylvania. It makes you a better
everything. It might be the thing that gets
you that little extra jump. I mean, again, I spend a lot
time on the Internet talking about how bad the situation is

(09:21):
in film and TV, which I don't want to gloss over.
I don't, I don't. I don't know that there's a
perfect solution. I don't know that there's a
perfect thing to do to get into the industry.
But my personal experience and my anecdotal experience can tell
you that being the driving forcebehind anything else suddenly
makes the chances of your project being made so much

(09:41):
higher because you're the personwho's going to deliver it.
And whatever you're doing, whether you're shooting short
film or whether you're shooting music videos or whether you're
making a podcast, all of that can tie into a sort of blended
future career in film and TV. And I think it's the smart play
to kind of make sure that you'reputting that stuff out on social

(10:03):
media, make sure that you're being visible, make sure that
you are pushing yourself into the areas that you want to work
and gaining that experience for yourself.
And then, you know, when you're,when you're in the industry,
like show, show it off, show your boss what you did at the
weekend. Show your boss the the thing
that you shot. You know, those conversations
can can be really fruitful if done in the right way.

(10:26):
Yeah, and I suppose it makes youstand out as well because I
mean, there's so much to unpack from that answer and so much
want to chat to you about. But I suppose one thing is that,
you know, talked about those sort of, I know it, it's blended
in this day and age and it's almost hard to articulate.
But like that sort of more traditional industry and not
doing it yourself for it. And I'm very much in the first

(10:47):
where like had a more more chronological career where I
started as a runner. I'd in fact worked in COVID.
I was a COVID assistant. So I got my break in TV.
I was like handed out masks and doing all that stuff.
And then I've become a script that I've worked my way up.
That sort of. Obviously, I do this podcast on
the side, which again, to add towhat you're saying, I think
doing another project takes you so far because like even from

(11:08):
the point of view where is like the access this gives me to
speak to people like yourself, like a network with it.
And it's also an interview. It's not just that, but I mean
it gives you that sort of extra opportunity, but it also just
shows that you're very proactivethat you can do you learn other
skills from it. So I do think there is a massive
value to that. But I suppose my question for
you of that is, do you still find there's like a snobbery and

(11:28):
a gate kept attitude on the industry?
Because I think a lot of people and I've been in development,
I've worked in that space are quite suspicious of people that
have done it themselves. There's a there's a real
suspicion there. Yeah, yeah.
It's how should I? How should I tiptoe around this?
I think there's, you know, I, I certainly have felt that there

(11:50):
is a snobbery around TV stuff like and film stuff.
I think, I think it's, it's different, right?
Because the thing that I'm also trying to separate in my head is
that like the US market and the UK market are, are super
different, right? In the US, if you've broken into
the industry because you've madesomething amazing, you are a
hero, right? That you are lauded as somebody
who beat the system, who, you know, went out there and and

(12:12):
show, show them who's boss. I don't know, I'm trying to, I'm
trying to verbalise that in the UK there's still very much a
suspicion, although that is disappearing.
And certainly, you know, I find myself over the last year
because I because I sit on this kind of intersection of like
I've done some more traditional looking film and TV stuff, but
also I come from this social background.
You know, I obviously have builtmy audience because I got sick

(12:36):
of telling companies that they should be building an audience
and also not having them not be able to fully deliver on that,
right. Like there is building an
audience and then there is this whole other ethos that you have
to get into about sharing value,working out how to bring up
people along for the ride, whichcompanies don't want to do,
right. They want to have all of the the
benefits for themselves. And that is a less good position

(12:59):
to start from when you're talking about building affinity
with your audience or talking about building a social media
presence. And there's less of A, A
snobbery now, I think because the UK industry is just
suffering so hard, withdrawal ofbudgets kind of across the
board. But B, there's this new change
that's happened in certainly in the commissioning world where if
you're talking to the channels, then now the commissioners are

(13:21):
sort of saying, well, we probably need to see this have
some traction on social media before we invest in it.
And that for me, going through that experience at the
beginning, before I was making social media content, starting
to pitch my own project, starting to prepare myself, my
own slate, and starting to prepare to move into this world
where I was going to run my company, my production company.

(13:41):
The moment I heard that from channels, I was like, they've
lost the game. They've that, that is the
biggest strategic era that I have ever heard from an
incumbent power in an industry, right?
Because when you think about the, the way that TV shows are
produced for the thing that the channel provides is the
audience, right? That's the power that they have.

(14:03):
Of course, they provide the funding and production companies
are working on a cost plus 10% model.
So there's money to be made if you can sell something.
But if you then need to build the audience yourself, there is
a cost associated with that. And certainly the the companies
that I've been talking to who are really starting to push away
from that model, like what, you know, 11 company said to me in a

(14:24):
meeting this year, are we crazy to continue pitching the BBC?
And I was like, maybe like, if you all the person who has to
build the audience, building an audience online and building a
strong community around what you're doing is not a free
exercise. It costs money.
And so and, and it costs more money than most people are
willing to put into something without the guarantee of a

(14:46):
return. You have to find a way to
deliver your project out in a kind of minimum viable product
way and monetize it so that you can continue this kind of growth
phase. And by the time you've done
that, you actually don't need the channel, right?
Because if you sell it to a channel, you, you lose any
upside, right? You lose any potential upside,
but if you keep it yourself, youactually might make this

(15:07):
something that your company can live on that you become a media
company rather than a productioncompany.
So the moment I heard that, I was like, this is the way things
are going. That route is not a good one for
monetization. Because even when you do sell
something to, you know, a channel, when you take into
account the number of people that need to watch it for you to
get that Commission or to get a recommission, and you consider

(15:28):
the the percentage that you takeoff the top.
The numbers are very similar to YouTube.
Hey, they get, they get scarily similar and you're like, huh, So
if I need, I need 8 million people to watch this thing per
episode and I get this much. So that works out per person.
Oh, it's very similar to YouTube.
But obviously you need, you havethat barrier of entry that the
channel will help you get over to, to produce the thing.

(15:49):
And so at that moment I was like, I there's no way there's
no point in me starting a production company because I
don't I don't have the history right.
There are there are people who are pitching things that have
been in the UK industry for 30 years.
So I don't have those kinds of connections.
Have mostly worked in a kind of blended UKUS market for most of
our projects, they were international.
So certainly my executive production roles are way more US

(16:12):
centric than they are UK. So that's another mark my name.
So this was the obvious route. And then the snobbery kind of
continued right? That there was a, there are,
there are regular messages in myinbox from people that I know
and I've met at, you know, industry events who are like,
this is crazy. What are you doing that you
can't, we'll talk about the industry like this on stuff

(16:32):
you're going to like ruin your career.
And then I go back and I think, well, my career would have been
me, me fighting against everybody else for commissions.
Or there is this other way wherewe can actually talk and
actually help indie film makers with this very early stage
understanding of like making a project go viral and building a
project online does not look like most people think it looks.

(16:53):
It's not a big spike and suddenly everything's viral.
It is a slow build. You need to know how to
monetize. You need to know how to refund
all that money back into your project.
And you need to grow over 2 years, 2 1/2 years.
But if I can take people on thatjourney and kind of build a bit
more of an indie ecosystem, thatfeels way more fun than, you
know, just the the industry rat race.

(17:15):
But surely that will support themainstream industry as well
because we're at the moment as we, I mean, we both made lots of
videos and I made lots of podcasts about this.
But the ecosystems collapsing inthe UK and straight the moment
because the loss of lower budgetshows, soaps like the one I'm
about to that, you know, I'm working on the moments about to
shut down. Like when we lose that we're
going, we're going to have to behaemorrhaging so much talent,

(17:36):
which then effects, you know, 5-10 years.
Even the big streamers like Netflix and Apple won't have as
much talent. Tell me the show.
So we do need a ecosystem there,whether that be an indie
filmmaker one or lower budget thing.
So I'd like to think that the mainstream channels will see
that opportunity and then and come in and try and do the same
anyway. But who knows?

(17:57):
And I, while I would love to share that optimism, I don't
think they will. I think what will actually
happen is there will be a new class of commissioner.
I think what will happen is media companies, and we're
starting to see this a little bit.
There are some really interesting media companies in
in London, right Lad Bible are areally interesting one.
Jungle creations, flight story, like those are those kinds of

(18:19):
places. Obviously they're very focused
on like digital first content. But there is a space where you
know, if, if you are making for a for a prime time BBC show
about as much as you make on YouTube, then there will be
creators who make YouTube shows that are dramas, that are
comedies. They will they will make all of
those shows will go somewhere else and they will go to the

(18:41):
place that is willing to build the social infrastructure around
them. And at the moment, from the
conversations I've had with the UK industry, I don't think the
channels are there yet. They don't understand.
They don't understand what they lost right in the 90s, in the
80s and the 90s, when you were bored, you put the TV on like
you knew what was coming out on the BBC because you were already

(19:01):
watching the BBC. So yes, they were a delivery
platform for the shows, but theywere Discovery as well.
Like you found out what was going on on those channels.
And now that has, you know, you can argue about what the split
is, but that has gone to social,right?
People are even during TV shows looking at their phone, right?
And so discovery is going to happen in that place.

(19:22):
And again, this was part of thiskind of all these puzzle pieces
kind of locking into place for me when I, when I left the gala
was, well, if I'm doing like that's what I'm building my
channel for. Like, yes, there is a place
where I want to talk to independent film makers.
Yes, there is a place where I want to provide them the, the
three things that they need to be independent film makers,
which are community and networking, which is the film

(19:43):
insider community. Then there's funding, which is
coming through an investment vehicle that I'm, I'm building
alongside all of this. And then there's delivery, which
is a platform that I'm building.So with all those three things,
that's everything an indie filmmaker needs to kind of
create their own space. And you know, that's why I'm
saying to all of these people now, like, build your social
media. Like that is the power that
you'll have over the next 10 years.

(20:05):
If you've built a social media space where you can talk to
people and you can involve them in what you're doing and build
affinity, That's what the channels are not willing to do.
And part of the reason that they're not willing to do it is
because they don't understand it, right?
Like the people who are of the age group that really understand
social are not yet in positions of enough power.
To execute a strategy like that,but also it's expensive.

(20:27):
Like I was, I had somebody approach me the other day and
they were like, we love what you're doing for yourself.
Can you come and do that for us?And I was like, yes, this is how
much it would cost you. And they were like, oh, and I
was like, well, there you go. What you, you obviously will
work for free for yourself because you're building
something that will be worth money to you in the future if

(20:47):
you're, and again, this is a a real problem in film and TV that
it is mostly controlled by people who are counting dollars,
right? They're thinking about immediate
returns. They're thinking about returns
within six months, within one year if you extend your time
horizon out. Because I don't know about you,
but like, I'm going to be makingfilms for the next 10 years
regardless. Like, I might as well make
content about it. So that's the kind of shift that

(21:09):
I think gives independence in this space such an edge over
this industry. And that's where I would like to
like, I think the place for those shows is not on the
channels. I don't think the channels
necessarily represent what they used to.
They're certainly, you know, theBBC is having a lot of trouble
at the moment being a public service broadcaster.
But like, I think there is a space where smart social

(21:32):
creators are becoming commissioners.
And part of that is a real shiftin what we understand to be
quality because you don't need to be making TV level stuff for
YouTube, but when you get U to those levels, making TV level
stuff for YouTube is actually quite profitable.
I don't recommend YouTube as a monetization strategy, heads up,

(21:52):
but I would go a different route.
But the people who are really interested in building that, the
audience's power, it's what gaveBBC power, it's what gave
Channel 4 power, and it's the thing that they're losing in
that discovery phase because they don't exist in a real sense
where people are looking at content.
Really interesting stuff there. Again, there's always a lot of
stun packing your answer. So I'm I don't know where to

(22:13):
take this conversation. I think we'll come.
I'll come back to the online thing because I'd love to ask
and I think a lot of our listeners lesson will be OK.
I kind of understand a lot what I just saying, but like, how can
I use social media myself if I'ma filmmaker or phone to have a
creative clear whatever. So I'll come back to that
before, right? What I kind of want to follow on
right now from this part of the conversation is what do you
think the future is going to look like then in five years for

(22:35):
the TV and film industry in the UK and sort of worldwide?
Do you think we'll still have, Ithink we'll probably will still
have like the channels and you know, shows like Blue Lights or
Lineage or whatever that may be and they'll still be an audience
for them. But do you think it'll become
more fragmented and people will be more?
Everyone will have a bubble likewe sort of do Spotify music,
really. The fragmentation has already
happened. That is a product of the last

(22:57):
five years. And this is what makes marketing
for the industry so complicated,right?
And, and it's probably worth talking about like what was the
dominant thing beforehand because we've gone through these
different phases of marketing. Let's take it, let's take
ourselves back to like 2015, between 2015 and maybe 2020, the

(23:18):
dominant way to market somethingeffectively and for the cheapest
way was on social, but it was paid.
That was like, and, and again, you look at the, the people who
really lead in that space, right?
VCs are the places where if you have essentially unlimited cash,
that's where you go to growth hack.
Like what's the quickest way to grow a company?

(23:38):
What's the quickest way to grow anything?
They were leaning heavily into paid spend, right?
They were just putting stuff outAnd, and part of that reason was
because the major advertisers hadn't really worked out that
social was, was an amazing placeto spend money.
And so CPMS were read, CPMS werereally cheap, which is the cost
of impressions. So just buying ad space in front

(23:59):
of people, you could just for not very much money, you could
target a single video out to 10 million people.
And then you could take everybody that watched that and
take them through a series of other videos.
And by the time they got to the end of that, you'd hit your
seven touch points. They felt affinity with the
brand and they would make a purchase and purchases were not
expensive. That's shifted and purchases are

(24:20):
quite expensive now. And what we're seeing is VCs,
they're shifting from paid strategy into organic social
around a personal brand because that is the way.
And I certainly think this for the next 10 years is going to be
the dominant way to show up. And there's a technical reason
for that, right? Part of that is me and my wife

(24:40):
used to have exactly the same algorithm, right?
I used to show her a post that Isaw and she'd be like, Oh yeah,
I saw that. Oh yeah, I saw that.
Right. Because we followed the same
news sources. We knew the same people.
We were in the same world. The new algorithms have gotten
so granular on our interests andthey're targeting us based on
our attention to different typesof things that her news, her

(25:02):
feed now and my feed look completely different.
And when when we send each otherstuff, it's genuinely outside of
our little bubbles that we're inbecause, and that's happened to
everybody. We are now in these kind of sub
niches because of what we actually pay attention to rather
than what we're fed. And that makes marketing a real
challenge because I can't as a, you know, if I have a film out

(25:23):
in a couple of weeks, I can't just push my, my trailer out to
everybody because when was the last time you watched a trailer
on TikTok like that? You have to be in the trailer
algorithm to really get served them.
And then when you're served 1 outside of that interest, you
see that it's an ad immediately and bloop and off you go.
You're, you're on to the next thing, right?
There's a skip button. And so you can't just pay to

(25:45):
have people watch the trailer and have them convert into
sales. What you need to do is you need
to show up in their feed in a way that is disguised, not, you
know, not to hide the fact that it's an ad.
You just need to show up differently, right?
And running Man was a really good example.
We saw the main character turn up with Jordan the stallion, who
is a big tick tocker, right? And they did this really funny

(26:07):
thing which took Jordan's content and kind of made it its
own, but also talked about the movie, which was a very smart
way of doing things. And then recently I saw Jeff
Goldblum turn up with these these vocalists and he was
singing popular with this kind of, but it was it's promoting
the film. But it's turning up in a way
that's entertaining me and it's exciting.
I'm not skipping because I wannasee what it's about.

(26:29):
But if they served me the Wickedtrailer, I probably would have
swiped on like that's how you get to people in these kind of
targeted niches because you haveto work out who is dominant in
those niches and how you work your way into their content and,
you know, look indistinguishablefrom other TikTok content.
Now that's a that's a bit that'sa tall order, right?
That is a very tall order for a marketing department because

(26:51):
they now need to spend 10 times as much on production and, you
know, 110th on actual push of those things because you get a
lot of that organic audience. And so because of all of that,
we are now in a situation where a personal brand, somebody who
is showing up every single day and talking about a subject and
entertaining people in another way is way more powerful or

(27:13):
certainly has easier access to that than the, you know, the big
traditional film companies. Certainly, like I say, if
somebody wanted to hire me to dowhat I'm doing for them, it's
going to cost them more than what they would pay somebody to
just come up and be a social media person, right?
But that's the differentiator. And like somebody just doing
that and somebody doing it in a kind of an effective way.

(27:35):
And so they just they're going to struggle to pivot on that.
So sorry, that was very long winded.
We have to go through the history of marketing to
understand this this answer. But over the next 10 years, I
think what happens is creators start to build their own plan.
We there are already creators who are doing amazing things,
right? Blake Ritter is someone I talk
about a lot. He's built a million following a

(27:57):
million person following across his his socials by making indie
film content. That's the kind of person who's
really set up to capitalise on this.
And people who are building their brand now, like I'm very,
very much in the early stages ofbuilding mine.
But that's the kind of space where positioning yourself in
this world can not only make youvaluable from, you know, it can

(28:18):
it can bring you opportunities and it can introduce you to
amazing people, and it can potentially make a a side hustle
income as well. But there will be there will
come a time in the future where a film picks its director, its
DOP, its writer, its entire castbased off of their social media
following. Because in order to reach the

(28:39):
most amount of people in a targeted way, that is the way
that you do it. And we can look at that and
think, oh, well, the industry's just going to.
Yeah, it probably they will, butyou know what else will happen
is the teams will work that out themselves and they'll go, if we
collab and we make a film, we can fund it through our
audience. You know, we can go out to
audience, say I'm going to make this thing.

(28:59):
The combination of all of those different fan groups will bring
in the capital to make the film and then they will split the
back end and hopefully own the distribution in a in a
meaningful way. And so I think that is what is
going to cause an indie boom. I mean, across all things, like
film, across television, I thinkwe're going to start to see the
degradation of like how we actually categorise TV and film.

(29:23):
And like all of those things aregoing to become a little bit
less meaningless. But it's all going to become a
little bit more indie. And I'm up for that.
Through the interest and I suppose you've seen this even
with like comics at Edinburgh Fringe.
So up in Scotland, like a lot, you know, the fringe, there's so
many more people that have just,they've built an audience on
tech talk and now they're like, they've skipped doing the
circuit. And, and, and as you were saying

(29:43):
on the collaboration thing, a lot of them now get together and
they join forces and it brings in because they got their own
brands and they and come together.
I was really interested. What does this mean for me as a
script that in in conventional TV hutch?
What, what is it? What should I be doing?
OK, that's a good question. I, I guess here I want to caveat
that this, I speak a lot about this on, on tech talk, right?

(30:05):
And there's no simple solution to all of this.
There's nothing that anybody cando in their immediate short term
to be like, I'm just going to dothis and this is going to fix my
career, right? But what I think is apparent is
that more of an audience doesn'thurt your career.
This doesn't seem there are someedge cases about actors.

(30:25):
And I'm not totally sure that I believe all of the edge cases.
But having more of an audience around what you do is a powerful
thing. It gives you access to new
people. It gives you access to
opportunities. It gives you access to do the
most powerful thing, right? The most powerful thing that any
creative can do is say I now I'mable to do everything that I

(30:46):
wanted to do without the input of Hollywood, without having to
ask permission from anybody else.
That's when you know, when people flippantly say green
light yourself, that's what they're talking about.
They're talking about a five year build on social that kind
of puts you in a position where you could reasonably fund a
project. Now nobody wants to hear five
years as a time horizon, right? But I think what you're doing,
specifically Jamie is brilliant.I think you're and I, and I also

(31:09):
kind of want to talk here about there being this kind of inverse
triangle of usefulness, right? And I find this right.
I, I, I'm talk to my community alot about the complexities of,
of monetization, about digital marketing, about finding, you
know, profitable ROI loops to grow your project.
And that's way too advanced withTikTok.

(31:30):
Like nobody cares about that stuff on TikTok, TikTok.
I have to dumb myself down to bespeaking in very broad terms.
And then, you know, whenever I try and get into the nuance on a
topic, somebody's calling me outbe like, well, that's not what
it's like in America. And I'm like, yeah, I know.
So that you are you are the mostuseful to the most number of
people before you've even entered the film industry or the

(31:52):
TV industry when you're like, I'm going to work out how I
would get into the film industry.
That's really useful because there are loads of people who
want to know that bit of information.
Whereas before, you know, 2015, in order to have your
information spread, like, you know, to be on a podcast, right,
to be invited onto a podcast in 2015, you had to be the expert
at the top of that field. And podcasts were kind of

(32:14):
interesting because, like, you know, you kind of got a view
into, like, what was going on atthe very elite stages of
whatever. But, you know, yeah, I find this
with a load of Stephen Bartlett's content, right?
He's talking about like, you've got to focus on these 1% and
you've got to do and like, yeah,you do when you've done 10 years
of podcasting to focus at this top end.
But like most people don't need that information.

(32:34):
They need like, what are the three things that are going to
make the biggest impact to my career?
So let me take, let me take yourquestion with that view in mind,
What are the three things that you can do?
You can be visible about what you're doing on social media.
You can be smart about datacap. This is a nerdy 1 and I'm sorry,
just bear with me for 2 minutes.But like, if you build an
audience on YouTube and you wantto tell everybody who follows

(32:57):
you on YouTube that you've got anew film out, you have to pay
YouTube to do that. You have to do it through ads,
you have to target. It costs you as ACPM, right?
And the bigger that audience gets, the more you have to pay.
And it makes launching somethingreally, really expensive.
So think about this. And I have a couple of products
that I use in the, in the this tree, but like, think about how

(33:19):
you can communicate with people by capturing their e-mail
address for some value, right? This is, again, this is in
digital creator space. This is like it's called a lead
magnet. It's a very tried and tested
method. But like, if you are a director
of photography, here are three lighting setups that are going
to change your world. It's APDF, it's free, come and
come and download it, right? And that what that does is it

(33:40):
starts bringing you a list of people who care about what
you're doing. And when you, I'm talking to my
indie film community about this,I'm talking about like charge
for your film. First of all, because making
content on social media makes your film more valuable than it
being on YouTube. Charge for your social media.
When people pay for your social media, you get their e-mail
address. And when you're doing on it's

(34:01):
crowdfund message them. They watched your last film,
they will care about your next film.
They care more deeply than the vast majority of people and for
free. You can tell them about the next
thing. So data capture is something
that it's not the first thing you need to do in social media,
right? But it's very quickly the the
second thing and the third thingis I think just get used to the
idea that you need to be the driving force in your career.

(34:23):
Like, it's not that people don'twant to help you.
It's not that there aren't amazing people peppered through
the film and TV industry. You know, I have been lucky
enough to meet some amazing mentors and people that I
consider having helped me. Not once have they ever gotten
me a job or have they ever done anything in any meaningful way
to progress my career. That is all on me and I know

(34:45):
that it's all on me. And most of the time the reason
they can't do that is because there are 10 people for every
job in the film industry at the moment.
And the TV industry, there is a literal tonne of talent that is
just not able to get in. Not because they're not
qualified, not because they're not talented, not because they
don't have the the track record,just because there aren't enough
jobs. And like I say, I hope over the

(35:07):
next five years we see a rebalancing where this indie
film market learns how to monetize sub $1 million films
and the respective TV formats that sit within that.
And when they do that can increase that number of jobs.
And we, you know, we become thiskind of much less snobby blended
community of, of creatives. I would love that.

(35:27):
But yeah, I think those are the three, those three things.
Let's quickly recap. And then.
So the first is just. An audience be.
Building an audience by being present online and whatever
niche you are in. So it whatever suits you, what
you're sort of trying to say. Second, data capture.
So basically try, you know, having access to people's emails
or ways of like distributing information when you're trying

(35:49):
to market something. And thirdly, what was the third
one? Again, just to read.
The third one was understands that you need to be the driving
force. Driving force of your own crew.
It's already interesting stuff. Again, you're saying loads of
things and it feels more complicated than it is.
I think a lot of this stuff because it's new.
I think that's what, and I thinkthis is going to go back to I
said earlier, but This is why the conventional industry

(36:11):
sometimes struggles to keep up with this, because I'm actually
being a big bureaucratic block like the BBC I work for and
trying to like adapt to a new time.
It's really hard and I think most people are trying their
best. It's not a deliberate like
snubbing. It's like a systemic thing that
you know will change gradually with time as well.
And firstly, it takes time for this information to disseminate,
right? Like I was very lucky in the

(36:31):
sense of the company I was working for was a tech like
startup company, right? We had people in there who would
come from growth hacking, you know, Silicon Valley startups
and they were like, no, no, thisis how you do it.
And so being around those kinds of people, I was like, oh,
that's really interesting. Like how do you apply that to
entertainment? How would I apply that to my
film that I want to make? And and that doesn't those

(36:53):
people have not yet gotten to the BBC, right?
The BBC, the through no fault ofits own, is just kind of like it
has, it has lots of progression ladders where people are kind of
in jobs that they're expected they're they're wanting to be
the next step up. And so bringing somebody in from
like a tech company into the BBC, not only do you mess with
the progression ladder in that department, but you also like

(37:13):
bring in quite radical ideas andyou know, somebody who I I think
of very highly in the industry. I mentioned maybe I should maybe
I should try and go to the BBC. And they were like, don't do it.
Do your your brain does not workin the BBC.
Like you, you need space to run.You need to be able to control
this. And like, you don't need meeting
after meeting about a meeting and the kind of bureaucratic red

(37:36):
tape that lives there. So I took that that quite
seriously. But yeah, it's not, it's not
that I don't think it's that theTV channels are mismanaged or,
or trying to do any of this. I just think they sit in this
space where they're just not, they can't take, can't take
advantage of it. Not like independent film makers
can, not like you can. Like you can set up your own

(37:57):
podcast, you can put content out, you can build an audience
in a way that if the BBC wanted to do this, it suddenly becomes
really expensive. Like, just imagine how much
somebody would need to pay you to do exactly what you do for
yourself, right? It would probably be quite
expensive. You know, it's it's way more
expensive than than it you doingit for yourself, but you get the

(38:17):
benefits of all of those things and all of those connections
that you make and all of these information as well.
Like that's the core of all of this.
Yeah, and it is a mad one because I've been doing this for
five years and I have yet to make any real income from this
as I'm investing a lot of time and a lot of money into it,
which I hope will pay off. And it has paid off on a
personal level, an opportunity level.
No, completely. I know what you mean.

(38:39):
A question. There may be some of my
listeners listen to this, Gordon.
I'm not, I'm quite introverted. It's not really my thing.
I don't want to be posting stuffonline, but I do want to be a
filmmaker, have a creative career and stuff.
I suppose 2 questions for this is what would you say to those
people? And secondly, like, what if
everyone does this? Will will they will not become
oversaturated or does that not matter because we're operating
in such niche groups anyway? Well, so let me, let me start

(39:02):
with the first bit. If you're an introvert, firstly,
there are a tonne of different ways that you can make content
that doesn't like everybody's introverted in their own
specific way, right? Some people feel strange about
talking about themselves. And so it's very possible, like
just shifting your focus away from yourself and onto your
project is a really good way that I've seen introverts do

(39:24):
that. The second way is that like I
don't want to be on camera, fine.
There are again, loads of different ways that you can
create content that it's not youtalking to camera like the if
you look at my content, it's allme talking to camera because a
I'm fine with it. I don't, you know, it's not, I
don't love it, but I'll, I'll deal with it.
And secondly, it's the only way that I can produce 4 videos a

(39:45):
day is just by pointing my camera at my face and recording,
right? And that's, that isn't a level
that you need to keep up for anyother reason, then that's the
speed I want to grow. But yeah, there are loads of
different ways around that. You can still create content,
You can still work out exactly what's right for you.
Just, you know, scroll through TikTok until you find something
that's like, oh, this is a really good idea.
And then steal it. Like that's the, you know,

(40:05):
somebody's done. Like it's text overlaid, but
it's a video of a rainy day. Cool.
Do that Like that. That will still get you 90% of
the way there, 80% of the way there that.
You get some slight longer term benefits from doing like face to
camera video because you build yourself as a subject matter
expert and people recognise you when you come up in their feed

(40:27):
in the same way that like peoplerecognise Steven Bartlett,
right? That So when they see him come
up in their feed, they're like, oh, I know that I will listen to
this because I've previously liked that information.
But you don't need to do that. There's loads of different ways
to do it and like I say, just posting, just doing stuff is 80%
of the work, 90% of the work. If you're smart about it.
And then, you know, once you've started doing the consistency,
then think about like, OK, how could I make these posts perform

(40:50):
a little bit better? And mostly that's about like a
good hook. But by the time you're there, by
the time you're thinking about what the hook of your video is,
you are 99% of the way to being a proper full time content
creator. Like that's all that you need to
go through. So that's one thing I would say.
The next thing I would say is like look for, and this is a
shameless plug, look for communities of people who are

(41:12):
building audiences themselves. One thing I am very keen on with
the film inside a community, which is the little community
that I run, is that everybody who's doing stuff in there has
access to my audience. So I'm constantly repost.
I mean, I do it with people outside of it as well.
Anybody who's doing amazing things in the British indie
space. I'm trying to repost, I'm trying

(41:33):
to stitch. I want more, you know, I don't
see enough of it. I want more of that stuff to be
out there because I don't think that I think the the best
outcome for everybody is when there is a big swell in indie
space, right? This isn't just me being like, I
want to build my audience to do what I want and make my
projects. Like I think if we all do this
together, we can find a way to actually like bring about a, a

(41:55):
real indie revolution. The last question was saturation
there. There probably is a point it's
in the future where there is saturation, but we are so far
from that mostly because we as individual people are niches,
right? I have definitely come up on
somebody's timeline and they've seen me and they've been like,
this guy is not for me. And they've they've on

(42:17):
definitely that has happened because I am a niche in some
ways, right? You have to like like, I don't
particularly like the tough lovekind of thing.
I've been doing a little bit more of that, but like I'm not
trying to be argumentative. I'm trying to be very
supportive. I'm trying to be very like open
about stuff and that's just not some people's vibe for the
content that they want to watch.But there will be somebody who
comes along and does that who has had similar experience to me
and is doing something similar. Like we can all exist in a very

(42:41):
nicely put together way, I thinkbecause we become the niches.
So that we would have to get so far along this timeline for
there to be actual. And there no, it's an
interesting one about the saturation as well.
You made a video that's really stuck out to me the other day
when you were talking about how you'd had a viral video which
had like 100 odd 1000 views or whatever, but had actually done
more damage to you in some ways.Because you just need to land

(43:04):
those, you know, free, free to 500 views of people that will
actually engage in your community and are your niche.
But because it's like tech talkspushed you out to more people,
then the algorithm gets confusedby that and you don't end up
showing up to the people you need to.
I think that is really interesting.
Yeah. And this again, is like the
thing that I'm trying to deliverto people is, yeah, there's

(43:24):
some, there's some industry and production information across my
content, right? I can't help but do that because
it's my core, my, my core knowledge base.
But most of what I'm talking about is indie film makers
understanding monetization, building their own audience and,
you know, growing for themselvesas like a proper little
business. And most of that needs to be

(43:46):
like social media strategy and monetization strategy and
platform strategy. And so I really do try to share
everything that I am going through and learning with TikTok
specifically. But the core thing I think here
is that like, there are two different types of content
creator, right? There's a content creator that
survives on views, right? And you know them because they

(44:08):
do skits and they do dances and they do that kind of stuff.
They are not trying to get anybody to do anything other
than watch their content. And that is a very, very
different game to being a niche content creator.
Like if you know, if you've got a podcast, like you have, if
you've got a film that's coming out, if you're somebody who is
monetizing their knowledge, likeyou don't need that big

(44:30):
audience. And actually it's detrimental a
lot of the time if you get that big audience.
And the video that you're talking about, I was just doing
a little skit about like American.
I had this experience myself when I I was working with this
American team and one of them turned around to me and they
went like, oh, I love British TV.
And I was like, oh, yeah, like, you know, Great British Bake Off
and whatever. And they were like, no, no
keeping up appearances. And I was like, how did you

(44:51):
learn? How did you see keeping up
appearances like that was that'sniche in the UK.
And so I kind of, I made that into a funny video and it did
300,000 views. And as soon as it does that,
TikTok goes, oh, this is the kind of person that likes this
person's content. And then it starts serving them
videos of me ranting about distribution platforms and why
YouTube is so bad for creators. And like the people who watched
the funny skip video see that. And they're like, I don't want

(45:12):
to watch this. And so then TikTok guys always
not performing very well. So stop pushing him out.
So yeah, they're just like, I think the realities of being a
content creator, I don't see that talked about a lot.
And so certainly for film and TVpeople, I like to give them a
little insight into like, I actually don't want to go viral
going viral as it's been good for me on one occasion.
But that was because it was, I went viral about talking about

(45:35):
the community, which was incredible.
But most of the time, you know, if I'm going viral, it's the
wrong audience and it's going todestroy my figures in TikTok.
I mean, that's really useful forpeople to hear though.
And I think it doesn't help you like sort of revalue what you're
doing yourself. Because for me, I was like, why
am I chasing views on tech talk?Ideally, what I want to do is
give people value and help people learn about the crib

(45:56):
industries. But and then also like people
go, oh, I've checked out just got real job podcast because if
Jamie's didn't that here, then he'll that's what his podcast
will be doing and you get listeners for that.
And yeah, it's a strange one. And this is the other, this is
the other thing. I made a video about this today.
I don't know if I've posted it yet, but like the reason most
people give up is because they don't see growth in line with

(46:16):
their expectations. And I talk about like Instagram
specifically, right? If you look at how many videos
I've posted, which is just over 1000 and I've got about 17 1/2
thousand followers, you'd go OK,so for every video he's posting,
he gets like, you know, 17 1/2 followers.
And actually that's not the casebecause one of the videos that I
put out got me like 7000 followers and like 3 videos

(46:39):
probably got me 7000 followers as well, right?
So there is the you just have tomake a lot of content because
you're taking shots at this, youknow, you're taking shots at a
target and you know, most of thetime you're going to hit around
the outside of the target. But sometimes you get something
near the middle and you're like,oh, you know, here's a boost.
But you have to be in your core competency because when it does
go viral, you need it to be yourvoice.

(47:00):
It needs to be representative ofthe content that you make.
So if you start like shifting outside of that, it's not, it's
not great. There will be stuff that is more
likely to go viral in the stuff when you shift outside of your
content, your core content, but that's not useful views.
And actually, the thing that I can really tell you now is that
I'm probably 8 months into my social media journey.

(47:21):
And bear in mind, I've been doing this for years for other
people's accounts and for companies.
But on Touch on film, like I've been doing this for eight months
now and I'm just starting to seea little bit of a bite in
traction because people have seen my face every day.
Like I've done 4 videos a day for eight months.
Because they're seeing my face, they start to know what I'm

(47:42):
talking about. They'll just watch a little bit
longer, and then that gives me alittle bit more of an
algorithmic boost, and then they'll watch a little bit
longer the next one, right? And there's this kind of
snowballing effect that it's taken.
It took six months to even see the grassroots of it.
It was like 200 views of video for six months.
But still in that time, even with 200 views of video I built,
you know, 300 people have joinedthe insider community and like I

(48:05):
think 1000 people have bought myother digital products that I've
got there as well. So there is a real tangible way
within 6 to 12 months of being up and running in not, not in a
way that's going to change your life, but in a way that
establishes you as a subject matter expert and brings in at
least enough additional income to warrant doing it.
But I see a lot of people focus on the content side, right?

(48:27):
They're focused on, I've got to do another episode.
I've got to do episode after episode after episode and
actually just shifting that focus of like, yeah, another
episode is really useful, but shift to the front end.
Just tweak content here and you make sure the hook is good.
Kind of set up something that's a little bit more conducive to
views and you'll kind of get this rebalancing because then it
you're increasing the value of each of those episodes that then

(48:50):
comes after it rather than just like lots of content out.
But the beauty of a podcast, foranybody who wants to do a
podcast specifically, is that you do an hour's conversation
and then you get like 2-3, four weeks worth of postable content.
Yeah, it's that's true. And it's something I'm trying to
learn is that I've got, I've done 182 episodes of this
podcast that published probably record more than that.
But do you mean if I go back, I can like you can repurpose stuff

(49:13):
two years later and it's still get.
So there's definitely value there.
And not just like there's lots of different ways to repurpose
it as well. Like I had a video that did very
well on Instagram probably six months ago.
And like, it was that video thatI told you about, right?
The one that brought me in 7000 followers and I reposted it
yesterday. I just uploaded that same video
again and it's done 20,000 views, so well above average so

(49:37):
and even that's brought more people in.
So you now have a kind of rolling Bank of contents that
you can dip into. You can know what your greatest
hits are, right? You're telling the particular
joke that the audience wants to hear.
You're playing your number one smash on stage, right?
You're re engaging your audiencewith something that they
recognise. Yeah.
And one of the best things aboutpodcasting as well is speaking
earlier about like, you know, you get to enter other people's

(49:59):
communities because you have a different guest than every week.
So you then speak to their audience, which comes with pros
and cons because you can sometimes be, it can be too
broad where you're confusing thealgorithm and because you're
jumping between niches and audiences.
But there's definitely lots of positives there.
So I'll be pushing your face a lot such after this episode goes
out. Oh, I mean, there's so much more
I can ask you would definitely get you back on the podcast,
Hutch. I suppose one question and maybe

(50:21):
not asked. Probably I'm going in tough
detail about some of the stuff you offer, but there's links in
the show notes for to check out.But running social media account
all the time and posting all this stuff every day.
Obviously there's negatives thatas well because if you're
constantly online, it's not goodfor your brain.
So how have you found that? How do you are you able to
switch off when you make content?
Are you able to go? I'm going to go away and do
other things. Yeah.

(50:42):
So the way that I, and this is something I've developed over
time, right? This, this wasn't beforehand.
I was like literally recording and posting, recording and
posting, recording and posting. And certainly in the early days
that was useful because I could iterate very quickly based on
the comments that I was getting right.
I could kind of work out what people wanted to know and I
could answer questions. What I have found out since is
that the videos that do best sitaround a couple of key topics.

(51:05):
They sit around indie film beingan amazing opportunity.
They sit around the reasons thatHollywood is failing at
marketing or you know, these bigprojects, we're starting to see
a lot of negative news around them.
You know, there's a couple of core things that I need to make
content around. And so now each morning I will
sit in my chair in the kitchen and I will just come up with

(51:27):
four ideas that sit around this and I will just speak to the
camera. And I know that the, the format
of my videos is always hook at the beginning where I need to
just say something that is goingto get somebody to listen.
I've then got a little intro that I do, which talks about the
film inside a community so that people get that in their mind
that that's kind of like my mainproduct.
And then I give the body a little response to the, the hook

(51:47):
that I was doing. And then I call to action at the
end. That's sort of my, I, I, I
experiments around that, but mostly that's what I do.
And I will just sit and one after the other, I will record 4
videos that are less than 3 minutes, but more than one
minute. And I'll queue them up and that
takes me like 35 minutes now in a day.
And I do spend some time checking numbers and looking at

(52:10):
comments. I try to, you know, I try to use
those as inspiration and respondto the ones that I can.
But mostly that's, that's all ofthe social media that I do like
in my, in my personal life. I will do some scrolling in the
evening, like when I'm, you know, when I'm bored of the TV
show that I'm watching that I consider that, you know, 30
minutes or so is by this. I'll normally get bored of
social media by then. I don't think I'm, I don't think

(52:31):
I'm under the spell of the, of the algorithm so much anymore.
But you know, I'm nearly 40. So it's not, it's not super
parked at me necessarily. But yeah, that's kind of I'm.
Trying to checking it. Yeah, yeah, you that I think is
something that you definitely, if you find yourself doing that,
you need to push away from it because that is an indication

(52:52):
that your brain is like, oh, I want the viral thing.
I want the viral thing because Iwant to suddenly see loads of
views. And then, you know, maybe you
get 8 months into this and you're like, actually every time
I've gone viral, it has sucked and I don't want to go viral.
I want my consistent views. And then you can just check in
once a day and you're like, all right, yeah, I'm getting my
normal views like, oh, that video did well, like I'll do

(53:13):
another one of those or that video didn't do well, I'll
probably stop. I'll take that out of my content
rotation. But like, yeah, if you're, if
you're hoping for the big boom, the big viral stuff, it's too
difficult. If it's a difficult space to be,
try and try and avoid it becausethat's not what you want.
You want the small iterative growth.
Yeah, no 100%. Hutch, thank you very much for
your time today. Honestly, it's so fun to chat to

(53:34):
you. Like I'm loving the content
you're making and I think this is an interesting episode.
It's very different to what someof the conversation I've had
before. People might be a good listen to
this. My God, there's so many new
ideas that have been presented, but it's useful to have these
conversations. No, in a good way.
I think it's useful to have these conversations to get a
different perspective on TV and film industry.
So thank you for your time today.
And like, for anybody that's listening, go and follow me on
social media because there's just this constant flow of this

(53:56):
kind of stuff. I'm trying to stick in those
content buckets so that people understand these concepts in a
lot more nuance. And then if you all like, oh, I
just need to ask such a question.
The film inside a community. The link is in my bio.
That's where I are. You know, we speak weekly.
Every week we jump in on a Friday and we do a voice session
where we talk about things that are going on in the industry
history and people ask questions, but I'm just always

(54:17):
there to like answer questions of people if they if they
haven't. And it's really exciting.
There's links to everything thatHutch is doing in the show
notes. Well, thank you for your time.
Lovely to meet you. Thank you, buddy.
Great.

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EP. 184 - ‘The Future of Indie Filmmaking' with Hutch.on.Film

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}EP. 184 - ‘The Future of Indie Filmmaking' with Hutch.on.Film