Ep.162 – ‘Making Broadway Dreams a Reality’ with Drew Gasparini - Just Get A Real Job

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Hello, I am Jamie McKinley, and thank you for tuning in to
another episode of Just Get a Real Job.
I'd like to apologize for this week's episode being a couple of
days later than usual. Normally we try to put our
episodes out on a Wednesday, butas you can probably hear from my
voice, I'm a little bit choked up with the cold and the day.
Job has just been very, very busy recently, so my apologies
for that. Normal Service will resume next

(00:26):
week, but it's well worth the wait as we are joined by the
wonderfully talented Drew Gasparini, who is a successful
Broadway and musical theatre composer, writer, songwriter.
He's contributed to many West End productions, commercials and
TV programs. And he has a new show coming to
the London West End called We Aren't Kids Anymore, which is

(00:48):
also doing a lot to help unseen and unrepresented talent, which
is a very important thing and chimes with a lot of the themes
of this podcast. But it was an absolute pleasure
chatting to Drew. Really interesting conversation.
He went in some pretty enjoyablerants about the state of the
creative industries both in the US and in the UK, and also just
talked a lot about what it really means to be an artist.

(01:08):
We had some really interesting chats about finances and how he
sort of survived his early career with little to no money,
how he navigates the industry and how he's made a successful
Broadway career as a composer. It's a really, really
interesting conversation and I really, really enjoyed recording
this one, so I'm excited to be putting it out.
There's links as always to Drew and his show and his work and
stuff in the show notes. If you're a fan of the show as

(01:30):
well and you want to keep supporting us, please follow and
subscribe whatever you're listening, whether that be on
YouTube, Spotify, Apple, All of that goes a long way into
helping the show continue to grow and find new listeners.
We're also on Tech Talk now and you can follow us on all the
socials as well. All the links to that stuff is
below or just search just get Real Job podcast.
It should all come up. But yeah, please continue to
support as it all really does goa long way and I'm really

(01:52):
grateful for the support we havefrom our listeners.
You guys are so loyal and it's lovely that someone in view.
Reach out and tell me what you think of episodes that give
feedback back and stuff. So even if you think, you know,
you want to tell us how to improve, we're here to listen.
So just do it nicely. The way do it nicely.
But no, this week's episode's anabsolute cracker.
So without much further ado, this is episode 162 of Just Get

(02:12):
a Real Job with the wonderful Drew Gasparini.
Just get a wheel job. Drew, how's it going?

(02:35):
Thank you very much for coming on.
Just get a real job. You're in New York right now.
How how's your day going? How are you?
So far so good. Thanks for having me on and I'm
excited to chat with you. I'm doing very well.
Thank you. I'm just kind of being a bit of
a recluse this week and I'm holed up in my apartment here in
New York working on a new project and that's all I've been

(02:56):
doing, been kind of tunnel vision on that new project and
this one we got going out in London right now.
Very exciting and just to sort of introduce you for our
listeners that you're a musician, a songwriter and a
composer and you do a lot of musical theatre stuff and you're
about to take a show to London very soon called We Aren't Kids

(03:18):
Anymore, which is really exciting.
That started debuts on the 28th of April I believe.
That is right. You got everything right.
Yeah, do a lot of songwriting, mostly in the musical theatre
world and I, I just love it in that world.
And so I'm lucky to be to be able to be doing this.
And I'm so excited to bring thisshow to London because every

(03:39):
time I'm in the Uki get there's a real warm welcome for me there
and I am so appreciative of that.
So I'm really looking forward tobringing this project there.
Someone I want to kind of ask you actually straight away off
the bat because often, you know,we have mostly UK based creative
people on the show. Yeah, and don't get, we'd had a

(04:00):
few Americans on and stuff, but what do you think are the main
differences between America and the UK for you as a creative?
So when you come to like London for example, you know, it's like
quite a big difference to New York.
Or is there some sort of similarities and stuff?
There is. My experience with how
commercial theater is produced in New York versus how it's
produced in the UK is it seems to go, and I don't know if it's

(04:25):
just the particular projects I, I tend to work on, but it seems
to go at a much quicker pace from conversation to actual
fruition, seeing the, the thing up on a stage or, or in the next
phase of development or whatever.
There are sometimes this is, I found this frustration in New
York, but I haven't found it in the UK yet.
And I have two, two projects so far going on in the UK.

(04:48):
But in New York, we'll go a whole year without ever having a
meeting or a discussion or seeing what's next.
And we have this thing written. We've done our job.
We wrote the show. And now we're just waiting for
like 45 other schedules to alignso that we can kind of get to
the not even get a production, just to get to the next phase
of, of, of putting the show up in front of friends and family

(05:11):
with music stands. You know, like it's, it just
takes so long. And in New York on Broadway,
there's basically a rough timeline from 5 to 10 years that
you dedicate your life to a showbefore it goes from page to
stage. And that's sometimes it doesn't
even happen. There are shows that have been
waiting 30 years for a Broadway theater.

(05:33):
And so I've been met with a lot of that in the United States and
I haven't seen so much of that in the UK.
And I, again, I don't know if it's because maybe there's just
more excitement there with what I have going on personally, just
in terms of what I'm working on.And maybe everybody in my home,
my home country has very little interest in, in what it is I

(05:54):
have to say or what it is I'm working on.
So that could be it too. It's hard to say like what a
difference is because it's only through my experience, but that
is something that that I've noticed in my experience.
That's really interesting. When I've had people on the show
before, one of the differences they notice is that people sent

(06:15):
tend to be slightly more encouraging of your pursuing
creative dreams. In the US, in the UK, you know,
where I grew up in Scotland and stuff, often people are a bit
like that. The whole name of this podcast
is just get a real job, because that is the attitude that you
get met with if you want to go and have a career in the arts.
And that I feel that quite strongly in the UKA lot of my
friends who have maybe, you know, normal jobs are a, they

(06:38):
don't understand why I work in TV or why I pursued that.
You don't do this podcast. I, I think that that is actually
a similar symptom of the United States is a lot of people kind
of just don't understand it at all.
They're very fascinated by you. When you kind of take the pivot
into dedicating your life to show business or the arts or

(06:59):
something like that. Most people in America really
don't understand it, I think. But here's what I'll have to say
is like the thing I have to re remind myself all the time is
just how can I swear on this podcast by the way you're
speaking? To a Scotsman so.
That's right. I forgot that's right.
Just how fucking big, how fucking big America is.

(07:19):
There's some like like a feels like a third of the world's
population or some shit like that is in our God damn country.
And when you go to England, you're getting, you know, it's
jam packed on the island out there.
You know, you're you're you're old jam packed.
So I feel like it's the same, the same amount of people who
don't understand, but there's just more of them in the United

(07:40):
States who say I'm going to go and be in the arts, but it's the
same ratio of people that are inthe UK.
That's what I think it is. I really do.
So we outnumber you because there's more people here, but I
think it's, it's pretty similar in terms of who just plainly
don't understand our pursuits out here.
You know, I, I, I do very well out here and I'm, I knock on

(08:04):
wood every day. I'm very grateful that I'm able
to make a living doing this. But every time I go home, I
still have relatives in my family who put a dollar in my
pocket because they think I'm homeless out here.
And, you know, really trying and, and struggling still.
And believe me, there were thoseyears.
But my gosh, you know, also, there's something about being an
artist. Sorry.
And now I'm a New Yorker and youwon't shut me up.

(08:26):
I'm just going to keep talking. It's like there's something
about being an artist where it'snot necessarily a choice, you
know? It's not like people say they
don't understand the choice to go work in television or the
choice to go do this. I never thought of this as a
choice. I felt so strange going to
school when I was younger because I was like, wait, why am

(08:47):
I here learning what the hell a right angle is when I already
know what I'm going to go off and do after this?
Why do I need algebra in my life?
And by the way, show of hands world, raise your hand anybody
in the world, if you've ever used fucking algebra in your
adult life after school. But you know, there's a strong

(09:07):
case for those of us who are in the arts.
I'm going to keep going. May I keep going?
Can I keep going here on these? I'm nodding along.
I'm nodding along. There's something that a lot of
people don't understand about the arts and it's not the
whimsical lackadaisiness of being an artist and getting up
and going, Gee, what song am I going to write today?
It's not like we're sitting hereplaying our guitars going, why

(09:29):
am I not famous yet? There are no rules.
There is no linear platform. There is no drawn out direction
for anybody who chooses the pathof being an artist.
It is something that we are creating.
We are the CEOs and the employees.
We are the company people who choose other jobs.
They have an understanding that once you get this job, you get a
promotion. You keep climbing the ladder.

(09:50):
That's what success looks like when it's linear.
We are taking a giant gamble, and the gamble is on ourselves.
We believe so much in ourselves that we can't even stop this
sickness we have, which I call being an artist.
We can't stop the sickness from taking over our entire
bloodstream and forcing us into this life.

(10:10):
And I'll take the life of ups and downs and feast and famine
over security and making sure I get a base hit rather than a
Grand Slam every once in a while.
Sorry for the baseball terminology.
I know that some American shit for your listeners, but I I'd
much rather choose that with thefear and the insecurity that
comes along with it then I wouldthe stability that most people

(10:33):
are told to to follow. And the reason I phrase it that
way is because there's nothing wrong with that stability
either. But I'm pointing out the fact
that people think people in the arts are crazy because it
doesn't fall in line with a structure that they've been kind
of implemented into their lives.I'm just going to say one last
thing about the arts Am I here to promote something I'm here

(10:56):
to? Promote that.
We'll get to that. We'll get to that.
You know this is what this podcast is all about.
This is something like like how how football out there like
soccer, you guys have it's so it's the most massive thing in
the entire world, just like sports are in the United States,
football, baseball, basketball, they are so massive, they fill
stadiums, right. I want to point paint this

(11:17):
picture for those who don't understand the economics of the
arts and they think that what we're doing is absolutely crazy
because what we essentially are doing is foregoing a, a steady
paycheck because we're betting on ourselves to succeed down the
line. A lot of us, it's mostly
freelance workers and, and, and things like that, unless you're
unionized and, and all that kindof thing.

(11:39):
But Broadway, Broadway. Just Broadway.
Not West End, not touring houses, not regional theater,
Just Broadway is a billions withAB billions of dollars a year
business. Also, Broadway makes more money
than the Knicks, the Nets, the Mets, the Yankees, the Giants

(12:01):
and The Jets combined. When I tell people that, they
don't believe me. They go online, they research
it. Broadway makes more money than
all New York professional sportsteams combined.
Yet all the money in our government is going to or or in
the school systems, goes to sporting events and athletic
programs, and it's first gettingcut from music programs and it's
first getting cut from the arts.But the arts is supplying the

(12:25):
economy for everybody else, you know what I mean?
And the arts is also where team,team building and leadership and
all those great things. It's not just sports.
We have to treat the arts as if they are as important as team
sports. It drives me crazy.
And now I'm going to check my heart rate, make sure I'm not
going to blow a gasket. I'm gonna get off my soapbox.

(12:47):
And now you and I are gonna havea nice conversation.
I'm really sorry about that. No, no, listen, no.
Drew, this podcast you captured,you've basically just nailed
about six of the main sort of themes I've used this podcast
for the last four or so years toexplore.
Like I think that's so true on the economy stuff as well,
because like in the UK it's verysimilar.
Like I think TV and film made the UK, like I think it was the

(13:09):
fifth biggest. I'm kind of, I've not got the
exact stats, but it was a huge income in the last few years.
But it doesn't get made out to be that way.
And and again, it is the first thing to get cut.
And like in the US, the UK is ina cost of living crisis at the
moment. You know, people's bills are
high, shopping's expensive and stuff.
Again, the first thing that people make cuts for is the arts

(13:32):
and without thinking about the longer term consequences.
So I'll completely hear you on that.
And again, there'll be a lot of our listeners going, yes, I very
much agree. Oh.
Good, good. So thank you very much.
Loads so much to unpack. There's so much to unpack on
that. And you were talking about how
it's it's such a it's a non linear industry.
Again, this podcast, I try as best I can because it's so

(13:53):
there's no right path in this industry, but we try as best as
we can to sort of help people understand the different facets
of the industry. So for example, people listening
to this episode that maybe want to work in theatre and
particularly compose and write. It's interesting to get someone
like yourself who's made a living from it and get your
perspective on that. So I've got a few questions
about your pathway and stuff like that, but let's cast your

(14:16):
mind back slightly to your younger days.
If you are OK to not rant for 5 minutes you we can rant plenty
as well. That's.
Great, I'll do my. Best It's good to get you fired
up, but do you remember when youwere like what?
What made you first drawn to songwriting?
Into musical fear, particularly?Do you?
Do you? Were you always into that?

(14:37):
I Music was a powerful force in my household and my mom is a
music teacher. So that was always just very
about when I was young and my dad was a very, I always say
he's like a Led Zeppelin induceddrummer who chose kind of the

(14:59):
white collar path. You know, his parents didn't.
It's exactly what we're talking about.
There is a lack of understandingof his artistic drive.
So he didn't get the support. And Taylor's oldest time he had
kids. And then he gave us all support.
Same with my mom. They gave us a lot of support in
pursuing whatever it is we loved.
Most of us. Well, there's four, four kids in

(15:20):
the family shows, music or the arts.
My brother's a ceramicist. Both my sisters are performers
and writers and musicians. And my youngest sister was just
nominated for a Grammy this year.
Like wild. So it's very, it's just been
very prevalent ever since we, wewere growing up.

(15:42):
There were musical instruments all over our house.
My mom was like a fanatic collector of anything that shook
or rang or jingled or buzzed andstrummed and, you know, key
everything. So it was just accessible.
That being said, none of us really took lessons.
We, we, our mom was a music teacher and it was just around.

(16:05):
So we'd sit around and pick up instruments and kind of play
around, and my mom and dad listen to the best, best
songwriters ever, James Taylor and The Beatles and Paul Simon
and, you know, Grateful Dead, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, list
goes on. So I was just surrounded by it.
And then the theater element of that was purely from my mother.

(16:27):
Aside from my dad being a clown and a ham, there was no
theatricality from him on a professional standpoint.
But my mom would actually directschool shows and and do
professional and semi professional theater in our
neighborhood. So we would see these musicals
all the time. And I just, I fell in love with
it and started doing musicals when I was about 10.

(16:50):
Wow, that's a quite an upbringer.
You're surrounded by it like. Yeah, engulfed it was.
No escaping it. Did it?
Did it always? You were talking earlier about
being in school and knowing whatyou wanted to do and stuff from
a young age as well. Did it always feel possible or
did was a long needed way? Well, you know, no, I, I, it

(17:11):
did. It always felt possible.
That is, that is 100% the truth.It always felt possible and but
I was told that that it wasn't by a lot of people growing up.
I had teachers who were very anti my antics very.
And I, you know, to be to give them some credit, I was the kid

(17:35):
who would bring his guitar to school instead of his book bag.
And I would just sit in the backof the class and like noodle
around a guitar. And I wouldn't want that kid in
my class either. So to their defense.
But I was told by many a teacherand my grandmother, my Italian
grandmother, God love her, she didn't understand when I was
saying, oh, I want to be a performer.

(17:56):
Oh, I want to be a songwriter. Oh, I want, you know.
And then when I moved to New York to pursue musical theatre,
you know, I think they're like, oh, that makes sense because
it's Drew and he always has donemusic.
But this is not a real career. I can't wait till he stops
playing pretend. There was a bit of that and I
but there was also very loud support when I was young from my

(18:18):
my aunts and uncles and family and my siblings.
But yeah, I was met with some OKgrow out of this.
And, you know, even when I was cashing, I have a memory of
being in New York and I had a royalty check and I didn't
listen before you could deposit checks on online and, you know,
take a picture of the check. And I had to go to the bank and

(18:39):
I cashed the check. And she was asking me what the
she's like musical new musical theatre.com.
What is that? I was like, I sell sheet music.
Kids sing my songs around the, you know, country and it's
musical theatre stuff. And she goes, oh, how are your
parents with that? Like she was like, are like, are
they OK with your choices? Like, and, and when do you, when
do you imagine you're going to choose, you know, your path.

(19:02):
I was like, oh, this is it, I'm sorry.
And by the way, you're a bank teller.
What are you doing teller? Why are like, are we going to
sit and compare our decisions inlife here?
I, it made me so irate. So I think I've had such a
strong belief in myself that I really do get combative when
people even suggest that there is an impossibility in front of

(19:24):
me. There might be a challenge, but
there was never a question that this is what I was going to
pursue from a young enough age that I'm not fucking around
here. Folks, let's go.
You know, love that you got, I mean, it's hard, isn't it, when
you're so determined and you have a dream.
And again, it's, it's good that again, I like the the podcast

(19:45):
and hopefully people are listening in that position now.
It's like, you can be realistic and go, well, I might not make
it to there yet, but it's like trying to think like, what kind
of what pragmatic things can I do to pay the bills or whatever
and still have that belief. And I think other people
believing in you go so far as well.
And it's hard to believe yourself sometimes.
Yes, yes. And you know, that's another

(20:06):
thing, the paying the bills thing.
Let me this, let's let's truncate this as much as I can.
We'll call it a mini rant. The paying the bills thing the
world has it's it's going to be expensive.
I live in New York, the UK, California, Anywhere you really
want to live is going to be so expensive.

(20:29):
And if you're choosing something, a career that doesn't
give you the constant paycheck to be not just paying your
bills, but putting money aside. That's the part that they're not
saying is like, well, you are making money, you're just not
saving money. Your rent is getting paid, maybe
just barely, but at least you'resurviving.
The survival is what gets us artists from just this one point

(20:52):
to this next point. And that's a very important
distinction, I think, is a lot of people quit on the, on the
pursuit of it because they're not making money.
I was so I was so good at being broke for like 10 years because
I, the idea of money getting in the way.
No, it was way too late. I already said, I'm going to do

(21:14):
this. You know, there's nothing that
could stop me at that point. So I made and, and this is not
me saying it like, oh, and and I'm so special because I did
this, but I had to do whatever Ihad to do just to make my bills
paid. It wasn't to make money.
It was to make sure I survived, which is not a sustainable
lifestyle forever. But when you're starting, you

(21:36):
need to be able to do that and trust that at the other end of
that struggling period, there isgoing to be something there that
pays large enough. You set this cushion aside and
now you can kind of work at thiswith without the stress of am I
going to make this month's nut? You know?
So anyway, I just wanted to say that too, because a lot of
people, I feel like they quit onsomething they are so meant to

(21:58):
do and something they are so destined and amazing at and they
call it quits because some voicein their head is saying you're
not making enough money. So, you know, we readjust what
those standards are as we go. But I, you know, I feel like I'm
talking artist to artist here. I'm not even thinking about the

(22:19):
audience of the podcast. I feel like I'm just you and I
are having this chat like artistto artist.
It's like. But I think that's good as well
because I think that's what, youknow, that's what good podcasts
and it's, I'm really grateful I get to have conversations like
this. I think the other things as well
though is like, I think it's really tricky for people when
they're in that fight and flightmode of surviving.
So I do simplify and I think it's important to know yourself

(22:41):
because some people like in all honesty, I'm really bad at the,
in the uncertain part of this industry because growing up
without a lot of money coming inall the time, I'm quite insecure
about like I worry about bills and I worry about like, you
know, having a stable life and stuff.
So I think because I know that about myself, I've taken other
precautions. So I always make sure to have a

(23:02):
certain amount of money saved, which is a luxury, I know, but I
maybe made certain choices where, you know, worked and
other things for a bit to give myself that position.
So I think it's different for everyone.
Some I think it's great. Like you're saying, if you can
find a way to survive on very little money and you can find
skills for that, that's a reallygood strategy.
Or if you can be pragmatic maybein the way I have where you

(23:24):
think I'm going to stay for two years, but I'm only working this
job for two years because after that I'm going to do these stuff
like that. I suppose there's different
approaches, but give give us a few.
Yeah. I'm curious, what things did you
do to survive on very little money?
If somebody's listened to this and they want to go for your
method of I'm going to just try and get by on little money.

(23:46):
Have you got any tips on your list you can share?
Number one lie. So I I I've said this example
and this is like this. None of this is going to paint
me out to be like an amazing human person, but I will get
back to my point about survivingand money.

(24:08):
And just to counter what you just said, I because what you
just said is absolutely right. And both narratives need to be a
part of the dialogue. And I'm going to get a slightly
more specific with what I with what I have to say about that
particular topic. But when I first moved here, I
got a job creating a curriculum for children's education.

(24:31):
And they, a prerequisite was a degree in said field.
And I said I had one, just very trusting that no one was going
to ask if they could see my degree.
And no one did. And I got hired and I and I and
I had that job for three years. I also like even like I got

(24:54):
hired to valet even though I didn't know how to drive stick
shift. I only know how to drive
automatic. And I remember this is a true
story. Jim Carrey, the actor pulled up
in a Lamborghini and I got in and I only because I was like, I
got to go meet Jim Carrey. I like I I have to go meet Jim
Carrey so go up. I was like hello, Sir.
And I took his keys and I got inhis car and it's a stick shift.

(25:16):
And I have no idea how this thing works, but everybody who
hired me who's right outside thecar thinks that I do know how to
drive stick shift. Anyway, the car made a violently
horrifying sound when I tried todrive it, and I got yanked out
of there and fired on the spot. So, so there's, there's a
there's a lesson and not lying, but the higher ability came

(25:38):
from, yes, I can, yes, I will, yes, I'm going to.
So all the jobs that paid my waythrough New York were like
catering jobs, bartending jobs. I used to play songs at kids
birthday parties and all of thatcame from meeting people.
They go, oh, you're looking for that, You know, I can do that.
And I've never done it. I've never had the experience of
any of the things I volunteered for.

(26:01):
I just needed to get paid, you know, So I would, if I say
anything outside of the realm ofprostitution up into this point,
I have said yes to and tried to do just to get my bills paid.
Can I, can I say one thing though about when I say find
enough just to survive? Because the idea of getting

(26:23):
good, being broke, I understand that that is a stressful thing,
but if you cannot get comfortable in the being broke
thing, this is the example I want to use.
A lot of actors and many of themmight be listening to this
podcast. People in musical theater, they
tend to take on these gigs and there is nothing, nothing wrong
with these gigs. This really applies to New York

(26:44):
actors. But if you take a cruise ship
gig, it takes you out to sea forsix months to a year.
You are out in the ocean, so you're not paying taxes on it
'cause you're in international waters.
You're put up in a cabin, so you're not paying for your rent,
you're being fed, so you're not paying for food.
You're pocketing so much money. By the time your contract is

(27:05):
about to be over and it's time to move back to New York, you're
like, I'm just going to sign up and do another one of these
because the money was so good. Six years later, you're like,
wow, I'm still doing the same show on the cruise ship.
I haven't done anything creatively outside of this
little bubble that I've been a part of for six year, six years.
So I'm going to go back to New York now.
But all those casting directors that have been waiting for you

(27:27):
for six years, you've just been out to sea and you have to start
all over again. And networking is a gigantic
part of the career choice. So that circle gets smaller and
smaller. Sometimes when you choose for
the sake of safety rather than for the sake of the gamble, you
have to keep on yourself, the bet you're putting on yourself.

(27:48):
So that was just like the last little thing I wanted to.
That's really, that's really that's really interesting.
I was about to ask you Drew my next question on the top head
was going to be there'll be people listening to this that
are a bit comfortable now, rightthen maybe up there in the
opposite position where they're they went for the safe.
They went for the safe job, which again, I totally respect
that part of me is very much sometimes like, what the fuck

(28:10):
are you doing? Go and work at a bloody bankers.
I would never will. But do you know what I mean?
It's like, Oh my God, you could be on this and it's like the
lovely safety something she's like, oh, come to me, because,
you know, it's a survival thing.But what, what do you what would
you sort of say to those people that maybe did that?
And now they're maybe a bit older, which again, is fine.
You can get into things at any age, but and they're scared to

(28:30):
give that up and go and pursue that because it's even harder to
do that when you're comfortable.Weirdly, sometimes it's a little
easier when you have nothing. I remember when I was 24 and I
was working, I was, yeah, I was working part time in care like
with disabled adults and I had Iearned OK money, I was getting
by, right. I would do fucking anything to

(28:51):
work in TVI, worked in the COVIDdepartment.
I used to pay for my own hotels in the city to go and work in
other places in Scotland. I couldn't do that now because
I've been on a decent salary forfour years.
I couldn't. I can't imagine doing that now.
So yeah, I totally get that. Do you know what I mean?
It's that hunger. So I don't know what what would
you say to someone in that position?
Well, I think there's just a little bit of nuance in the

(29:14):
Department of the Arts because there is job.
Job is one thing, and career, career and job are different
things to me. And career is something I think
a lot more sacrifice. You have to sacrifice a lot more
in order to nurture this career to get jobs.

(29:34):
You can go out and go get jobs. What bothers me is people taking
jobs like they're I highly doubtand and anybody out there with a
different perspective, of course, slap me on the wrist
message, message us here on thispodcast and tell us what a
shithead Drew is. But I do think that people who
are, are doing cruise ships, youknow, for six years in a row are

(29:56):
only doing it for the, the paycheck rather than why they
started doing the arts in the 1st place.
And again, this is where I have to really define.
I think that's totally fine. That's like a really blue collar
method of going and working in the arts.
But at a certain point, the artist that I am, so this is
really coming from a personal standpoint, I need to be

(30:18):
creative. I need to be challenged as well.
So if you're going to be doing six years on a cruise ship and
that's going to satisfy you, youmight as well go work at a
myriad of restaurants or bars just to get the money to pay
your bills while you're still finding that artistic thing to
challenge you. Because the thing that's going
to keep you growing and stagnancy and plateauing is a

(30:42):
shot in the foot for any artist and the idea of keeping this
career going. Again, we don't have this law,
this, this linear path. We just have this thing that we
carry with us and we hope it expands and expands and expands,
but it's not going to keep expanding unless it gets
challenged and forced. Just like any muscle group.
It's unless you start using heavier weights, that muscle is

(31:03):
going to be the same size. You know what I mean?
So it's like if we put that intopractice, into our own careers
doing those. I know people who have been in
Wicked for like 15 years and they're paid, you know, they've
gotten their pay bumps every single season or every year and
they've managed to like have a really cushy life and to have
buy houses and put kids through college.

(31:23):
And I think that that is awesome.
But I think telling the narrative to other artists like
this is how you have to do it tomake a living is also a false
way to go about it. There is a lot of Gray area
between those places. And I think it's kind of unfair.
And forgive if any of my rants thus far have sounded like it is

(31:44):
a black and white system. But there is so much Gray matter
that if you don't acknowledge the Gray matter, everyone thinks
they're getting into this with aset of rules to follow.
And the truth is, you're making everything up as you go,
Everything, you know, in hopes, you know.
The industry is made of show business.
What are you, fucking high? That's not real.

(32:06):
That's the people in charge of show business.
Do you think any of them are artists?
No, it's business. It's business that has to do
with show every once in a while.And I hate that I'm not always
reaping the benefits of the business side of it when I'm
putting my blood, sweat and tears.
But again, I choose my journey every single time over being the

(32:28):
suit with the $1,000,000 bonus. I do.
I will always choose that. Wow, I'm full of rants today.
Somebody find me. Find me every time I rant.
I I owe the podcast $100. OK, we'll just something like
that. Listen, we'll take the
investment man. We'll take the investment, man.

(32:50):
No, listen, I appreciate your passion Is is, I think it's
really interesting to get different perspectives.
I think you're touching someone.I want to reiterate as well like
we are sharing our experiences. This is completely black, not
sorry. It's completely great.
There is the problem. It's so hard.
Something's in this industry because there is no right path.
There is more specific rules. I think it's useful to get
perspectives and stuff. And we're not saying don't go on

(33:12):
a cruise ship for six years or don't do this, but it's just
thinking about it. Like in the long term, I think.
I think because we're trying to survive, we often think about
things in a short window insteadof a medium to longer window.
So if you're thinking, well, if I maybe do this and take the
pain for 3-4 years, then in 15 years I might have a decent wage
but also I'll be fulfilled. Whereas like you might be

(33:36):
comfortable, but in 20 years you're going to look back and
go, what the fuck was I thinking?
I was great being a cruise ship for six years, but that's weird.
And now I've got this great house, but I'm quite sad and
it's too late. So it's a balance.
It depends what you want, but I think he's thinking about things
in the in a medium to long term as well.
And that's really hard when you're trying to when you're
trying to survive. Well, that's part of that job

(33:57):
versus career thing. A job could be a gig, a quick
thing you go do. A career is this thing that you
want to see lasting somewhere deep into the future.
It's got to be this this long thing.
And thank you for clarifying that.
I'm not here saying, hey, if youwork on a cruise ship, you're a
piece of shit. That's not what I'm saying.
I am just exactly what you said.I'm offering another
perspective, that's all. Yeah, completely.

(34:20):
Hello, it's Jamie here. I hope you're enjoying this
week's episode. It's just a quick one for me to
say that if you are listening tothe podcast on Apple, Spotify or
whatever platform you engage with our show on, be sure to
give us a follow or a subscribe as it goes a long way into
helping us grow and find new listeners as well as helping you
keep up with all the latest episodes and everything that's
happening that just get a real job.

(34:41):
You can also support us by subscribing to our patron page
for the price of a cup of coffeeper month.
All the money we make goes back into the upkeep of the podcast.
Thank you for your continued support and we hope you enjoy.
The rest of today's episode. There's loads more I want to
talk to you about your pathway and you're being a composer, but
I think we'll plug the show now for a bit because we've had it's

(35:05):
been 30 minutes already, which is amazing.
Some really interesting topics. What I love the tangents we've
got on it's you know, I sent yousome questions that I feel like
I've actually one of them, but Idon't even mind because that's
what the best podcasts always do.
I I always leave it episode likethis going yes, that was
brilliant because. You don't.
Oh good. Which I enjoy.
But let's talk about We Aren't kids anymore.
And one of the reasons I wanted to speak, one of the reasons I

(35:27):
wanted to speak to Drew, is I love this idea that you want to
give unseen talent a chance in such a quite a hard industry to
break into. We often see the same people,
those from quite well off backgrounds.
I love the concept that you're trying to get people from any
Group A chance to just get theirbig break and stuff.
So yeah, tell us about We Aren'tKids Anymore and the sort of

(35:48):
project and idea behind it. Absolutely.
So We Aren't Kids Anymore is it's a brand new musical that is
a derivative of a concept album that I released right as the
global pandemic was afoot, rightas that began happening.

(36:08):
And whether it's the timing of, you know, people needed to find
these songs or whatever because of the bleakness of the world
LED people to find some, you know, angsty musical teener
songs for some reason did very well in terms of the enthusiasm

(36:30):
behind the material during this time.
And we got a phone call. My agents set me up with a
meeting with this guy, Chris Cumming, who's wonderful
director, choreographer and theater mind in the UK.
And he just loved the material and said, what else?
You know, it's an album, but it's a show.
What is it? It's a show.
We should make this into a show.And over the course of three

(36:51):
years, I just wanted to make sure it didn't feel like a
concert. I really wanted it to feel like
a theatrical experience because,you know, we could just do the
concert wherever. It doesn't really matter.
But like, this is going to be a true new defining moment, I
think, for musical theater in terms of what a musical can or

(37:15):
cannot or should or should not be.
And it's it's a series of vignettes.
We have a wonderful director named Jake Smith who is taking
this material. And my friend Rich Finch and I,
we have restrung this material into these vignettes of these
five people. And what's interesting about

(37:37):
this is it all has to do with the casting.
I think way more than the material.
I'm sure there are people on thecreative team who would say the
material is blah, blah, blah. But as the guy who wrote the
material I'm here saying, what Ithink is, is actually very
interesting is the fact that every show you see of this
production. So we're doing The One Show in

(37:58):
London in April, we're we're doing a kind of an exclusive
look at this brand new show withthe hope of getting a longer
production on the West End or somewhere in London.
But once that production happens, those 5 characters,
those five main actors, every single night you come to the
show, they will have switched totheir play.

(38:20):
So you will always get a new show based on the five very
different perspectives on stage,always swapping what they are
experiencing experiencing on stage.
And so if that doesn't entice you to just want to see it based
on the concept without even hearing the material, I think
they're foolish because I think something like this really

(38:42):
hasn't been done successfully with musicals before.
It's been done with plays to very small extent, but this is
I've never seen something like this in the musical.
The cast is a wide spectrum fromteenage to their 60s.
So you have this long breath of generational gaps going on.

(39:03):
It's gender fluid. It is race fluid.
It is human. It is the most human piece of
theater I have ever written because the entity is the five
of them. There's not one single hero
we're watching. There's not one person's
journey. It is your journey.
It is my journey. Sure, the music is
autobiographical, but yeah, I can easily at this point remove

(39:27):
myself from any of these after having watched several different
casts of this in development perform this material.
It makes me feel like I struck something in my mental vein here
that somehow translated to others.
And a lot of times as a songwriter, you're just trying

(39:48):
to get a point across or you're trying to convey emotion, but
rarely do you get the emotion across.
And I think that that is what I,I happily accidentally ended up
doing with this material and I'mso excited.
We got such a great cast. It's going to be at the Savoy
Theatre on April 28th. That's a Monday night.

(40:12):
Our, our evening performances just about sold out.
We had to add a matinee performance.
So there's a 4:00 PM and there'san 8:00 PM.
Olivier award-winning Sam Tutty,who was in Dear Evan Hansen and
two strangers carry a cake across New York.
We have Dylan Mulvaney, who I ambewildered by and very honored

(40:32):
to have them be a part of this. Amy Atkinson, Melanie Liberi.
These are Broadway and West End stars that I idolize and look up
to. I'm I, you know, I'm just
thrilled. It's, it's truly, truly amazing.
And I think our, our whole creative team, Lauren Hopkinson,
Chris Cumming, Jake Smith, everybody we're putting together

(40:55):
something that I again, I, I've not to toot my own horn too much
here, man. But like, I just, I don't think
something like this has quite been done before.
And I'm, I'm very excited, very excited.
I mean, no, it sounds very exciting and you're mentioning
all the people involved. So it sounds like you're talking
about the team as well as you'renot.
It's not like you're sitting talking about, you know, oh,

(41:16):
it's all me. Like it sounds like a great team
effort, which is really interesting.
Oh. Big time again, the further I
can remove, you know, because ofits autobiographical nature.
The songs were ultimately, some of them were very joyful to
write, but a lot of them were very painful.
We talked about drug addiction. We talked about suicide.
We talked about career anxiety, you know, on that nonlinear path

(41:38):
and trying to explain to the muggles of the world what it
feels like to be on that nonlinear path.
There's a lot of that immersed into the show and as good as I
feel like I am at at getting those thoughts into music,
conveying the whole piece takes a village.
And Lauren Hopkinson, music supervisor, Jake Smith, genius

(42:00):
director and me, Chris Cumming and Richard Fitch, we we all
tied this concept together. So it and I can't leave out the
Queen, Bronya Buchanan, who is producing this.
And she is part of the example of why I feel like in the UK,
things get done at a pace which makes people, which makes me

(42:21):
feel like people want to get things done.
And it's she is leading that example for me.
So, Bron, you Buchanan needs a shadow.
Yeah. And can you tell us about the
sort of given to sort of unrepresented performers an
opportunity to win, like a chance to be part of it?
Can you tell us about it? Because I think that's such an
interesting concept and it's a great idea as well.
It's good to, yeah. Absolutely.

(42:43):
So we have this, you know, big, flashy, shiny, good,
professional, well known cast tofolks as our as our core 5.
And that is exciting. It really is.
And they are deserving of being a part of any show.
And we are so thrilled that theysaid yes to being a part of this

(43:04):
show. And honestly, when you get a
room full of producers and theater goers, it really helps
in those conversations when theysee the Olivier Award winner in
the and the the big names involved.
But while we have those producers in the room, I thought
it'd be nice to force feed them some new talent too, so that

(43:24):
they themselves can see who elseis out there.
What I've noticed, which is a, this is another major difference
between the US and the UK. You virtually seemingly cannot
get a career in commercial theater unless you've gone to
Mount View Mountain View or the Guilford School of Acting or one
of those, one of those big Urdang, these big Conservatory

(43:47):
programs. Unless you've graduated from
those schools, you don't have a chance of getting an agent.
You don't have a chance of getting into these auditions,
getting taken seriously and getting, you know, hopefully the
chance, which is maybe why a lotof people scoff when they go,
oh, you're going to go try be anactor.
Oh, you're going to go try be anartist?
And the other part of that is it's a class thing in the UK as
well because and probably in America too.

(44:08):
But if you don't come from a middle class or upper class
background where you have the money, it's much harder to get
into those schools. I mean, Eaton, which is the big,
you know, private school in the UK where like where a lot of
the, you know, prime ministers who are not very nice either
have went to, you know, they have 5 fears there.
Like most comprehensive schools barely have a theater program.

(44:29):
So it just shows you that you'realready at such a disadvantage
anyway. And then you have to get into
one of those big, you know, drama schools are.
And then all those people are going to go get jobs.
All those people are going to goget jobs.
And then they're going to be in charge of cutting the arts from
schools. You know what I mean?
Like that's this. Is very true, very true also,
that's a completely. But no, there's just a big

(44:50):
disparity. I think class is such an issue
in the arts. Massive the The joke.
The joke in New York. When I first moved here, the
joke in New York was how do you become a success on Broadway?
Well, you have to have rich parents.
That was it, you know, and therewas and slash is a lot of truth
to that, you know, and for the for the people like me who are

(45:11):
lying about their resume just toget hired to cater, you know,
the Billy Elliott opening night party or whatever, like you're
you're begging just to make endsmeet.
It you get really frustrated watching a lot of those people
kind of leap above you just because they have the resources
to do so. That's Taylor's oldest time as
well. But again, I I to talk about the

(45:32):
new talent whenever I started getting a bit of a following out
here in New York, I started playing these shows all over the
city at 54 below and Joe's Pub. And we had these great, amazing
parties basically where we do anhour and a half concert.
And I had a lot of my Broadway friends and, you know, my Tony
Award-winning friends and, and my people from TV and I had my

(45:53):
fancy folks up there with me. But I also teach and I have a
lot of amazing students who are so frustrated who they're not
getting the time of day, they'renot getting seen at auditions.
And I also teach master classes around the country.
And I see a lot of these amazingstudents and they don't even
know if they're going to go to New York because they can't
afford it and their parents don't think there's an
opportunity for them out there, blah, blah, blah.

(46:15):
I said, what if we flew you to New York and put you in the show
and then you have this video of you with the 54 below plaque
behind you singing a brand new song in front of a Broadway
audience and this and the other.And it just so many of those
people that I gave those opportunities to over the last
15 years or whatever have gone on to not only book Broadway

(46:38):
shows, but Malia Joy Moon, she plays the lead in the Alicia
Keys musical on Broadway. She won the Tony last year.
And she was just a part of my concert.
And I'm not saying it's because she was in the concert, but more
eyes are on her. And that's what I wanted.
I wanted to see success for those artists start to snowball
because that's another misconception I think about the

(46:58):
arts is this competitiveness. It's it's in there.
Like it's cemented in there, butat the end of the day, I look at
it like this cool little jacuzziwe all get to hang out in at the
end of the night, you know, likewhere we can talk about it all.
It's so important to have friends who are artists as well,
not to be competitive with, but to make sure they're OK because

(47:20):
they're doing the same and same thing you're trying to do.
We need that trying anyway. So I really do hope that in the
UK, whoever wins this contest, to come and sing with me and
they they get to be on a West End stage and, and put this on
their resume and it's, and you know, it's going to be a really
exciting thing and they'll get to sing a song for the industry.

(47:42):
And maybe that's a chance they wouldn't have gotten to get
before. So I'm really thrilled that we
are able to do that and that my producers didn't think I was
crazy for suggesting it. No, I think it's brilliant
though, and I think it's good that you're still trying to make
that happen. And I think, as you say, it's
frustrating something that you do need those big names to then
get the producers or the money people to set up and go, OK, but

(48:04):
it's still you have to play the game.
You can only play the game you're in.
And you know, I like, I love your pragmatic approach and it's
great to hear you, you know, talk about access and be aware
of it and also be grateful for what you have and stuff.
I think we need more people likeyou doing that.
But, you know, it's great that you're setting that example and,
you know, it's really inspiring to to get to talk about in the
show. And so thank you.
Yeah, there's links. There's links to all this in the

(48:27):
show notes. So you want to find out about
this show, find about the competition or any of Drew's
other work, click below. I have a few more questions I
just don't want to ask you, though, but one of them is.
Yeah. Tell us about your process, the
songwriting. Like, do you compose first?
Do you write lyrics first? Do you play the music?
Like, I mean, I'm not very, I can just sing.
I can't do anything else. So this is all magic to me.

(48:47):
But you tell us how. It was, it was far from magic,
but sometimes, I mean, I guess sometimes you'll write whatever
your, your yesterday was and, orwhatever your Blackbird or
whatever your McCartney genius thing is.
And then that comes out and you're like, I don't know how
that happened, but my head just hatched the golden egg.

(49:08):
And, and there it is. In terms of like where I start
music lyrics or concept or whatever.
It just really depends. Stand alone songs are very
different because you're kind offitting an entire arc into 4
minutes. Musicals are very hard.
Musicals are very hard. People don't realize how hard
musicals are and sometimes I'll write a a musical with a guy

(49:31):
who's writing a script and they'll just send the script to
me and then they'll be like 3 blank pages and it just says
song goes here and I have no idea what they're talking about.
And it's like why? That can't be why, you know,
just because you say a song goesthere, that's not why we sting.
That's not why a character needsto break out into song.
You got to be really beyond logical and beyond pragmatic

(49:54):
when it comes to why a charactersings so.
Musicals are very hard, but in terms of the process, you got to
be able to dive in, grab an emotion, pull it out, voice it
as either you or as a completelydifferent character.
And then sometimes you're like in rehearsals for a musical and
the director comes up to you andhe says, hey, the scene change
is really loud because they haveto move that car backstage.

(50:17):
Can you write a 2 minute song that covers that sound?
And you're just like in the woods trying to think of what
the, what the fuck could anybodypossibly be singing for those
two minutes just to cover up a noise backstage?
So it comes with those odd challenges, but the joy of it is
the accidental process when you're not even trying to write

(50:37):
a song and then you wake up and you're like, Oh my God, I, I'm
canceling everything today because I have to, I have an
idea and this has to be my focus.
And that happens like once everyfour days for me.
I'll be like, cancel everything.I have an idea and I'll go
crazy. It was really interesting.
I mean, you've done lots of amazing things in your career so
far as well. I mean, they've done The Karate

(50:58):
Kids and 1st Broadway, didn't you?
You did in 1984. You'd done some amazing
commercial and TV work and stuffas well.
Is there a stand out moment? I know it must be really hard to
reflect on your career like thatbecause you're still in it, but
is there like a moment that really stands out to you from
all that? Scott, you know, I don't know,
it's it's hard to beat like the first one of those moments that

(51:22):
makes you want to like keep chasing moments like that.
And there's a a Broadway actor named Titus Burgess and there's
another Broadway actor called Jeremy Jordan.
And they have these huge followings out here.
And when I was a young nobody and really just starting out, I

(51:44):
was messaging them on like Facebook and just blindly or I'd
go like, wait by the stage door of whatever Broadway show they
were in. And when they would come out, I
would like harass them and, and,and like, say, will you sing one
of my songs at my next concert? Please, Please, please, please,
please. I was always met with a no.
And then those two guys said yes.
And that was back in 2009 or something like that.

(52:05):
And it absolutely changed my career.
It gave me a career. Them saying yes gave me a
career. So I just needed a yes to get
started. And that is the those are two of
the most significant yeses I got.
I don't even think they know howsignificant those yeses were,
but they they really helped me get going.

(52:26):
That's. Amazing.
Was there? Was there a moment as well?
Because I love asking people this, because I tried to think
about what the moment was for mea lot.
But was it a moment when you thought, OK, I made this kind of
work now like that I'm doing thething I wanted to do?
Like, do you remember being a moment where you thought you
could identify as a composer or I mean, or were you always kind
of already comfortable identifying like that anyway?

(52:48):
I think imposter syndrome is something that lives pretty
vibrantly within all of us and Ithink as everybody's dimmer
switch is a little more effective than than others.
So I I do think that the idea ofdo I even should I even continue
doing this or that met me 1000 times over the course of my

(53:11):
career. Because even if you have the
drive and even if you know you want to do this when you're a
young kid, when you're met with enough rejection over a short
period of time, you start looking at the gods and going, I
guess this was not in the cards for us, you know, and after the
pandemic, you know, I've, I've had some successes and, and life

(53:34):
was pretty good leading up to 2020.
And then one Broadway shut down.I I ran out of money.
I couldn't get my lease back up again.
Here I was everybody like my name was on TV, theater, Super
Bowl commercials, Broadway, likeall over the place.

(53:55):
And then suddenly everything's gone and I have to move back in
with my parents at the age of 34or something like that.
Something, something that felt embarrassing to me.
And I met this woman who is now my wife.
Yeah, my mom set us up, as embarrassing as that is.
But I when I, when I moved back to New York to like get my

(54:16):
career back up because the wholeindustry had to kind of get back
up, I was panicking for a minute.
I was like, oh God, I don't knowwhat I'm going to do.
I don't, I don't know if this industry is going to get it shit
together. I don't know if I have it in me
to eat. Like I, I feel like I'm starting
back at 0 and I have to climb back up again.
I don't know. I think I have to go find a job.
And I would say that I have to go find a job.

(54:37):
And my now wife, her name is Allison.
He would say you have a job, you're a songwriter.
And that it's it wasn't until I heard someone else say that that
I felt like I could put my shoulders down and stop having
to say it so often as to overcompensate for the fact that
nobody else was saying, hey, you're a songwriter.

(54:57):
Hey, you're, you know what I mean?
It was, it was, it was an odd thing.
And I'm sure people have said things like, wow, you're like,
I've had fans come up to me on the street and say like, you're
my favorite songwriter. And it even then, even then it
took hearing the love of my lifesay it for me to register the

(55:17):
significance of it, I guess. No, thank you very much for
sharing that. I appreciate it, the honesty and
stuff. Like I think the pan the
pandemic really did like it was like it, you know, it's a shock.
We're talking earlier about thatsurvival thing.
If you were in that mode of survival and you'd found all
these strategies, it completely flattened you and it must be so
hard to come back from it. How did you come back like when

(55:39):
you got to New York and stuff like, was there what, how did
you get through that period and rise back up to the amazing
position you seem to be in there?
Well, it was, it was, I was fortunate because, you know, I,
I had signed on to a couple of contracts before the pandemic
started. So I just didn't know if they
were going to like ever we were going to get back to work on
those projects. So after the pandemic was

(56:02):
starting to kind of Nestle its way back to a more comfortable
territory, those producers on that project started calling me
and said, let's get back to work.
And, and thankfully, it wasn't too long before I could strap
back in. But I do think about a lot of
the actors who were like in the middle of a Broadway run and all
those shows closed and all thosejobs went away and all those

(56:24):
union jobs went away and all. It was just like, it was so
devastating. And you know, at the time and
and horrifyingly, again, our president was something of a
buffoon. And not to get too political,
but when you're watching an entire, you're watching
industries slowly come back and and start doing their work.

(56:47):
And then you're watching an industry that is forced to stay
shut, an industry that depends purely on people getting into a
room. And so theater was just so gone
and dead much longer than all these other industries that had
closed down. And our president would still
come on and talk about how unnecessary the arts were saying
words like that. When again, let's go look at the

(57:10):
economy, my friend, Let's, let's, let's go ask, ask any
child what it is they want to do.
See what the answer is. They're going to say big
business. I don't think so, Mr. President.
So I, so it was tough to watch with a lot of other artists and,
and actors and, and writers because they didn't have the
fortune of, of having something in the works right before the

(57:33):
pandemic started. So in that regard, I'm very,
very lucky. Yeah, it's, it's complicated.
I mean, I think it's really hardnow as well.
We talked about again earlier the cost of living and stuff.
So I think it is, you know, it'sI'm hope, I'm sure, hopefully
this conversation again, just I think it's people just love
hearing honesty and hearing people talking about their

(57:53):
situation and acknowledging it. Because I think the problem is
often people don't actually acknowledge what's going on for
people on shows like this, because often it's a big
celebrities that are doing interviews and they have to
worry about these things. So I think it's really useful to
have people at different. Stages for every, for every big
celebrity who's getting paid like gargantuan amounts of
money, just know that there's like 100,000 other artists who

(58:15):
are still working and they are artists.
That is their job. They're just not a celebrity.
Celebrity is a very different thing, you know, So I do.
I do think people get those two things twisted up though.
They they definitely do and it'sthe glamour as well of it.
We see the the creative industries as something that is
not. And if you go into this to to
get famous, then you're probablynot going to leave it very

(58:37):
happy. And that's exactly right.
That's exactly. Right.
Yeah, because it's about the process.
I want to ask you, I ask every guest we have on this show
because I think mental health isa very important topic.
But how do you protect your mental health as a creative
person, especially when you seemto you're quite vulnerable, you
put a lot of your own experiences into your shows and
stuff. How do you make make sure you
look after your mental health and your well-being and stuff?

(59:00):
Thanks for asking that. I too, advocate strongly for
humans and more in particular artists to value their mental
health because I think humans are humans and we're going to be
feeling things. But artists are humans who wear
their organs on the outside of their skin.
So when the wind blows, it blows, it stings a little

(59:22):
harder. You know what I mean?
I just, I feel like artists really need to take care of
themselves and years of therapy have helped me out.
I have had a huge battles with drug abuse and addictive
personality and that's that's really what is all My anxiety
and depression I think can all get swirled around that one

(59:45):
little ISM of mine which has to do with alcohol and drugs and
addiction and I'm not sober and I'm not clean.
I am more regimented. I have to say that because I
don't want people to think I am a recovering alcoholic or drug
addict. I am a drug addict.
I am an alcoholic. And I don't use to the point of

(01:00:09):
self danger anymore because of the tools I've had to acquire
and the things that I've had to teach myself over the course of
the last 15 years of going to therapy.
I am on Lexapro, which has really helped with my anxiety.
But beyond that, because let's just say the world of chemicals
goes kaput. And I'm not going to say I'm not
going to push big pharma down anybody's throat right now, the

(01:00:32):
Pharmaceutical industry, becausenone of that's really wonderful.
But I think if you find a medication that works that
that's really, really helpful. I meditate daily.
I do something called noodle doodle and journal every day.
I have to play piano or guitar at some point, even if I'm not

(01:00:53):
writing music that day. I have to play and not a song I
want to sing. Just sit and not have any
thoughts. Just noodle.
I noodle, noodle, noodle. I doodle.
I have a sketchbook. The reason I doodle is because I
used to draw when I was a kid and I loved it and I stopped
doing it. So in the last five years or so,
I started getting back into it. It reminds me why I fell in love
with creating. I do that every single day and I

(01:01:15):
journal as many pages as my brain dumps out.
I do all of this first thing in the morning before I do anything
else, because that is literally if my brain will not function
the way I need it to unless I kind of clear those cobwebs and
those items, those little fixtures in my morning ritual
every day get me on to the starting spot so that my day can

(01:01:36):
go in a forward direction. And when I met with hiccups, I
used to have meltdowns. I used to make mountains out of
molehills, but now I can sit in the lazy river and let things
come as they are. And I am much, I'm more, I'm
much more at ease that way. And it's honestly, I think it's
helped my writing exponentially,exponentially.

(01:01:58):
It is helped by creative process, yeah.
Thank you so much for being so honest about your battles and
your mental health. And so I do think it's really
useful to hear both talk about it honestly.
And I've done therapy for a year.
I haven't talked about a lot on the show, but generally, I mean,
I know therapy isn't for everyone and it's not always
affordable for everyone, but generally one of the best things

(01:02:19):
I've ever done. I feel like such a better person
in many ways. And I do think, and it's
incredible when you see that, not for even yourself, but when
you see how much better you can show up for the people you love.
That's. It it's, it's a really lovely
thing and yeah, I feel that. So I appreciate you talking

(01:02:39):
about, I think often as creativepeople as well you.
It's that whole like being beingchaotic in like the tortured
artist mentality that people think they should have.
It's actually really unhelpful, as you say, like you're you're
probably making better art as a result of care of yourself.
Oh, you just said it that like that idea of like, oh, I should
feel this way because it's goingto enhance my it's going to

(01:03:01):
influence my work in some way orlike this brooding dark feeling
I'm having is going to translateinto the next, you know,
masterpiece I create. No, that's self torture.
I mean, it's good to go through stuff to learn those lessons,
but my God, we got to be good toourselves, you know?
Yeah, 100%. Do I know of me speaking for an
hour? So I've just got two more

(01:03:21):
questions for you before I wrap things up.
Yes. Of course, of course.
One of them is, and I love asking this as well, but what's
the biggest lesson you've learned in your career so far?
And I know that's such a tricky question to answer, but is it
like a lesson you've taken away so far in your career that you
share with our audience, please?I I got a note on a song once
that there's two lessons 2 when you get and both of these

(01:03:44):
lessons have to do with getting feedback from about your
creative material about something you've made.
The first one is when you show it to another artist.
Expect to hear the note in an honest way and you're going to

(01:04:06):
want to take that note the most serious.
And the reason I say that is because someone gave me a note
once and they're an artist I look up to and they said your
songs are great. They're just safe.
And I hated the word safe so much.
I don't want to be safe. I want, I want to open my vein
up. I, you know what I mean?
I want to, I want to RIP my chest open and, and pour out

(01:04:29):
the, the contents. I, I really do.
So that note made me always, never even veer on the oh, is
this what they're going to want?Oh, is that clever enough?
Any of that? No, I'm just going to push and
force feed my personality and mysense of humor and my rhyme
scheme into people's mouths rather than right thinking what

(01:04:52):
the project is for. If I write unabashedly, it gets
the attention I wanted to get. I don't like the word safe, so
writing for safety, never good. The other piece of advice I got
or the other, the other thing, the lesson learned is when
people who are in charge of something artistic and they
themselves are not an artistic person, do not trust their

(01:05:16):
notes. Do not trust immediately.
I should say you can trust it down the line if you really
percolate and sit on that. But the example I use is I sent
a demo in and it was for a majormovie studio.
I'm not going to mention who they are.
And the response I got was, oh, God.
You know, I usually play these demos when I'm driving to work

(01:05:38):
in the car and my daughter's in the back seat and she usually
dances. But this time she didn't dance.
Would you mind rewriting the song?
That was the note I got Your daughter didn't dance, so I have
to rewrite the song. Fine, that's fine.
So I just rolled my eyes and said sure thing, boss.
I, I and I didn't touch the demo.
I didn't rewrite the song. I just sent the same exact demo

(01:06:00):
and their response was great, much better.
Thank you so much. So the reason that it's
important distinguishing, distinguishing thing to point
out is because a lot of people have give a note for the sake of
they want to say something to you.
A lot of people give a note because they say, I love what
you're doing. Here's how I think you can make

(01:06:21):
it better. You know, when someone says my
daughter didn't dance to it, will you rewrite it?
That's not a helpful note. So I think the lesson in all of
those and there's been dozens ofthose stories is learn who to
listen to. And more times than not, it's
going to end up being yourself over any of those people.
So that would be the that would be the lesson for those

(01:06:42):
creatives out there. That's super interesting during
my sort of day job in TV is I, Iedit scripts with writers and
for drama and soap and stuff and, and my job is a lot of my
job is giving notes to writers and working with writers.
Something I've learned and something that I would always
pass on to other script that is that maybe training and stuff is
never give a no because you feellike you haven't said anything

(01:07:04):
in the room for a while because that's a pointless note because
you're just doing it to say something.
You don't have anything to say. You don't actually have a note
to give. So I think that's a really
interesting point. So yeah, nice to pick up there.
Yeah. I've got one more question with
for you to ask before we wrap up.
But just want to say like this has been honestly such an
amazing conversation that I really, really enjoyed it and I

(01:07:25):
appreciate so much more. I could ask you, but to leave it
on this because I think it's a great thing to end on.
But what would your closing advice be?
Particularly, but also maybe in musical theater where your sort
of expertise and stuff lie? Yeah.
That question, I got to say, gets harder and harder as time

(01:07:46):
goes on. The evolution of everything with
technology and and how and how people think they become a
success. I think it's all quite misguided
and I think the advice, if I could find the simplest way to
say it, which is clearly something I'm not good at doing
because it's going to turn into another 45 minute rant, I

(01:08:09):
promise it won't. I would say just.
Drown out the noise. Do not listen to the noise the
don't listen to. How come their TikTok got more
views than mine when I'm better or I did it this way or don't
think you have to go through thechannels of Instagram or TikTok

(01:08:31):
or social media period in order to get seen.
You don't. And I think there are a lot of
myths in the industry. People make choices based on how
big their Instagram following isor something like that.
Of course that does happen sometimes.
It is disgusting, but it's not the reason why you're not
getting picked. So I think that that is another

(01:08:54):
big distinction to keep in mind is that the jobs that you don't
get weren't yours to lose to begin with.
So as an artist, you're going upfor jobs all the time.
I hope to get this job. I hope to get this job.
And a lot of rejection feels like, oh, I didn't get it.
You know what I mean? It feels like a loss of some
kind because you worked for a few days on the material on

(01:09:14):
getting that job, whether it's writing a spec song or
auditioning for a show, if you don't get that job, you have to
move on quickly. It was not your job to get.
Period. And things move so fast.
I, you know, Yeah. Sorry, this is getting ranty
again already. Just drown out the noise.

(01:09:34):
Drown out the noise. Follow your heart.
And I've. That's not something I did
easily either. You know, I used to.
All I wanted to do was be Jason Robert Brown or Joe Iconis when
I was growing up, growing up, when I was like in my 20s.
And the minute, the minute I stopped trying to imitate the
people that influenced me and the moment I said, what do I

(01:09:55):
sound like or what, what is my internal creative voice feel
like or sound like. The more I looked at that
instead of listening to what does the world want?
What does the world expect from me?
The more I stopped asking those questions and just listen to me,
that's suddenly when my career really started taking off in a
direction that was like, oh, Drew has a thing.
He he does not Drew is followingthe path of these other people

(01:10:19):
who have done that thing. So anyway, there is there is
advice in that in what I just said somewhere.
I'm sure there is no for sure. And I think again like a quote
we've had in. The show before is that
comparison is like creative kryptonite because it's so,
yeah. And I do think about that
sometimes you do have to look inwards because it's so there's
so much noise. And even doing podcasting right

(01:10:40):
often now with podcasts when I run it because I obviously want
people to listen, it's tricky balance because you have to give
these sort of like bitty titles.And I try to resist doing that
sometimes because there isn't 1 answer.
Do you know what I mean? It's like you do those episodes.
It's like how to become successful musical theatre
composer with, you know, with you, for example.
I don't want to call the episodethat because that's not what
we're saying. We're saying that it's very
nuanced. It's a great thing there isn't

(01:11:01):
an answer to give someone, but if you do want to.
I mean if you do want a title. The title should just be Drew
Gasparini bears all when he strips naked on this next
episode. What do you?
Think Here we go man. Well, we can.
Workshop it we. Can workshop great.
Thank you so much. It's a great place to leave it.

(01:11:23):
But honestly, man, it's been a pleasure.
I really appreciate your honesty.
I really appreciate your passionand I've loved your rants as
well. And I agree with a lot of oh,
thank you so much. What a pleasure to be here.
Thanks for having me.

All Episodes

Ep.162 – ‘Making Broadway Dreams a Reality’ with Drew Gasparini

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist

Crime Junkie

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep.162 – ‘Making Broadway Dreams a Reality’ with Drew Gasparini