September 18, 2025 • 52 mins
When it comes to suicide prevention, many of us freeze - unsure what to say, afraid of making things worse, or paralyzed by the weight of the topic. In this powerful conversation, Jessica Greenwalt sits down with Jacqueline Sharp, Area Director for the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, to dismantle myths and provide clear, evidence-based guidance that could save lives.
"Are you thinking about killing yourself?" It's a question many of us fear asking, but Sharp explains why it's one of the most important questions we can voice. Contrary to popular belief, asking directly about suicide doesn't plant the idea; instead, it creates space for honesty and can provide immense relief to someone suffering in silence.
The conversation unpacks two fundamental principles of suicide prevention: time and distance. Creating time allows someone's brain to move beyond crisis, while establishing distance between a person and potential lethal means dramatically reduces risk. These insights have fueled innovations like the Community Armory Project, which provides locations where people can voluntarily surrender firearms temporarily during a mental health crisis, a program that now has 12 locations across Arkansas.
Sharp also addresses the power of language, explaining why phrases like "committed suicide" perpetuate stigma by implying criminality or moral failure. "Individuals who die by suicide, they're not committing a crime," she explains. "You wouldn't say someone 'committed cancer.'" This subtle but crucial language shift acknowledges suicide as a health issue rather than a moral failing.
For those supporting suicide loss survivors, the discussion offers compassionate guidance: say the deceased person's name, understand that grief isn't linear, and recognize that checking in consistently matters. The episode concludes with information about the "Do You Have Eight Minutes?" campaign, which provides a simple code phrase people can use when they need support but struggle to directly express their pain.
Whether you're concerned about a loved one, supporting someone grieving a suicide loss, or simply want to be better prepared to help, this episode provides practical, life-saving information delivered with compassion and clarity. Remember: in a crisis, call or text 988 for immediate support.
If you are in an crisis or feel unsafe, call or text 988 or dial 911 for immediate support. There are people out there who will listen and can help.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Jessica G and this is the Just In Time
podcast.
If you're struggling today, Iwant you to know this podcast is
here for you, but it's not asubstitute for professional help
.
If you're in a crisis orfeeling unsafe, please call or
text 988 or dial 911 forimmediate support.
There are people out there whowill listen and can help.
On this show, I'll be sharingpersonal experiences, mindset
(00:22):
shifts, talking with key expertsand sharing real tools that
help me go from barely survivingto thriving.
This is not about quick fixesor one-size-fits-all advice.
It's raw, it's honest, it'swhat worked for me and what I
believe can help others too.
Let's walk together fromdarkness to hope.
Hello, hello everybody.
(00:45):
I'm Jessica G and this is theJust In Time podcast.
We are so excited about today'sepisode.
I know last episode we talkedabout bringing Jacqueline Sharp
on and she is here with us today.
Thank you so much for takingthe time and being here with us
today.
Thank you for having me.
She is the area director forAFSP and, for those of you that
(01:08):
don't know, afsp is the AmericanFoundation for Suicide
Prevention, so I guess we'll gointo a little bit about how we
met.
Yeah, okay, okay.
So I opened up the nonprofit.
I obviously had a mission andwhatnot, but I was very, very,
very scared about putting myselfout there.
I didn't know next steps and Iknow I wanted to make a
(01:30):
difference and an impact but Ijust wasn't sure how and I
didn't really have theconfidence to talk about.
You know, suicide, education,prevention and my story, yeah,
and we met a coffee shop.
Story, yeah, and we met acoffee shop and she looked at me
and she knew right where I wasat.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, for sure, and I was super pregnant, that's
right.
And so I got this.
I got a.
I think you called, maybe, andsaid, hey, I'm interested in
learning more information aboutsuicide and sharing my story and
talking about it safely.
And so I said, sure, sis, let'smeet for coffee.
And I just remember walking inand the one thing I remember
from that meeting was you werewilling and eager to learn, and
that's huge.
When you come across peoplethat want to learn the
(02:17):
appropriate ways to talk aboutsuicide, that is makes my job so
easy, because I can teach that,we can teach that.
That's why we're here.
So it was great.
And then it started a journeyof us just, you know, really
kind of working with each otherand it kind of spread to our
walks, our events, your eventsand advocacy side of stuff.
(02:39):
So it just grew from there,which is why I you know AFSP and
the grassroots movement of it.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yes, and I believe 1986 is when they were
established, yeah, and they'rebased a lot on research and
development and they havepresentations.
So we'll get into that in aminute.
But I became a presenter andJacqueline actually trained me
for Talk Save Lives, and so Ithink I did a presentation in a
(03:07):
minute.
But I became a presenter andJacqueline actually trained me
for Talk Save Lives, and so Ithink I did a presentation on a
couple of schools and I was sonervous you guys, just like I
was nervous to start thispodcast.
It took me months to get here.
But one of the things thatJacqueline really helped me with
was she looked at me and shewas like, okay, she's like, I
see where you're at, let's getyou educated properly, because
even at that time I'm just goingto give one example had been
(03:31):
five or six years, right, and Ijust was so afraid to perpetuate
a problem or I was afraid toput myself out there or say the
wrong thing, because you justnever know right and a lot of
people will go through loss andthey want to do something and
they want to make a difference,and I believe you guys have a
(03:52):
rule around that right.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, it's not a hard and fast rule, but suicide loss
grief is not linear and it'sreally important that we take
care of loss survivors.
Unfortunately, what we knowfrom research is that lost
survivors themselves are at agreater risk for suicide, and so
that's part of our mission isto take care of those that are
(04:16):
affected by suicide, and wenormally say you know, we want
you to wait about a year to twoyears after your loss, um, to
really engage with us, right?
But we also we we kind of weighthat according to the person.
Some loss survivors throwthemselves into the work because
that's what's going to helpthem heal, right, that's going
(04:38):
to be part of their healingjourney but then, within the
same token, you know you wantthem to be educated so they're
not causing harm.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, and we're going to.
We're going to dive in thattoday to like the do's and
don'ts with Miss JacquelineSharp and you know, you, you and
AFSP gave me the confidence toactually start moving that
needle forward, to to talk aboutit.
Yeah, you, you gave me theconfidence, and AFSP and to do
that, and even after goingthrough the training with you, I
(05:05):
was still nervous to about it.
You gave me the confidence inAFSP to do that and even after
going through the training withyou, I was still nervous to do
it right.
It's such a heavy topic.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
It's such a heavy topic, there's still so much
stigma associated with it, andwhen I train volunteers and law
survivors, I always talk to themabout listen.
We ask how far out you are fromyour loss, not to you know,
bring that back up or cause anypain, but really is to or
(05:34):
devalue what they want to do orany of that.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
It's just you're looking out for safety, correct,
yeah, and people, some peopleunderstand some people don't.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
And people will ask questions and they're not ever
questions that they're meaningto be inappropriate or mean.
It's just a lack of educationand you have to be prepared when
you go out into the communitythat you may get some, some
potentially offensive questions.
But that's why we do what we dois because we need to meet that
with education.
Yes, we need to meet that witheducation.
(06:04):
We need to meet that withcommon sense.
It has to be something thatpeople can understand, digest
and really be able to take outwork.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
And what is your thoughts with the health care
system?
Do you feel like our healthcare system is educated enough?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Well, I mean not just my thoughts.
We look at some of the datathat we pulled here in the state
of Arkansas.
You know, arkansas Children'sHospital always does an annual
review of the community.
What are the community needs?
But also internally, what arethe needs of their doctors and
their doctors and their medicalstaff?
And the number one thing thatcame up and this was a couple of
years ago is that they did notfeel prepared for all of the
(06:43):
behavioral health and the mentalhealth challenges that they're
seeing in the ER.
They've seen such an increaseand so they don't feel equipped.
I mean, my father is a retiredpediatrician and he even talks
about there's just not a ton oftraining that happened in
medical schools I have clientsthat are, you know, therapists,
psychologists, doctors, and theystill use some of the.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
You know, do not use words Correct, the no, no,
correct.
You know, yeah, and you know,when I met you I didn't even
know this, right, and I thinkthis is why education is so
important, and I will stopsomebody in their tracks.
I'll be like, hey, we don't usethe word commit because of X
and z.
Right, and we'll get into thatin a second, because I mean it
was, I think I met you aboutfive, five, six years after the
(07:27):
loss, yeah, um, and, and I thinkI was still using the word
commit, yeah, and I think maybeat that coffee shop you may have
told me that and I was like, ohmy gosh, I, I don't know.
And then it really hit me inthe training program I remember
you told us a story and you saidthere was a nine-year-old girl
(07:48):
that had died by suicide and themother, I believe, had seen it
reported on the news as thisnine-year-old committed suicide
and the mother was like mydaughter did not commit a crime
and so that's always stuck in myhead, yeah, yeah, I think you
shared that with us on ourtraining program.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
That's one of our lost survivors, lost her
daughter and you know, you thinkabout our language is ever
evolving.
One time I did a presentationat a pretty major corporation
and I got asked why is thatimportant to change our language
from committed to die bysuicide?
And I just said, you know,again, our language is ever
(08:29):
evolving and if there are waysthat we can change our language
to make it safer, to be moreinclusive of our lost survivors,
because individuals that die bysuicide, they're not committing
a crime, they're not committinga sin, right, like you wouldn't
say he committed brain cancer,right, correct?
Yeah, committing a crime.
They're not committing a sin,right, like you wouldn't say he
(08:50):
committed brain cancer, right,correct?
Yeah, that's the other.
That's what.
That's the narrative we'retrying to change.
Yes, if somebody dies from aheart attack, we're not, we're
not.
They committed a heart attack,exactly right right, and that's
ultimately where we're comingfrom is we want to take science,
yeah, and say, look, this iswhat we know from science.
This right, it is happening inthe brain and people.
When they are in suicidalcrisis, they're not able to
access the logistical side oftheir brain Correct and they're
(09:12):
experiencing the most painthey've ever experienced in
their whole life.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
And this reminds me of last episode we said we
talked about when someone's in acrisis, this is not the time to
tell somebody, hey, let'sreprogram your brain.
They cannot access that part oftheir brain.
When we were talking aboutneuroplasticity, harnessing
neuroplasticity to fight suicide, which is changing the way you
think.
That is not a crisis approachLike that comes.
(09:38):
That's like true preventionbefore somebody is in a crisis.
Right, and I want to touch onething I am in the presentation.
It talks about how brains ofsuicide.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Individuals die by suicide.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Yeah, they differ from their brains differ from
those that don't right, yes, soyeah, I think that, um, you know
dr joe dispensa.
He talks about harnessingneuroplasticity to fight suicide
and, um, our brains really domatter when it comes to this.
Yes, and I just I love the AFSP.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
It's backed up with research, oh yeah, and that you
know I'll expand on that.
So what we know of that is thatit differs specifically in the
impulsivity section of the brainwhich, if you think about a
suicidal crisis, it is thatmakes sense.
It's.
It's oftentimes an impulsivethought that happens or an
impulsive act that happens, andso what we know from research is
(10:35):
that that differs and so thathas also driven our education,
that we do in our training, thatwe do listen.
Somebody is can't access likethat thinking through process of
like right, oh, but I have afamily, oh, but I have they
can't access that right.
So what we?
They do not have control overthat part of their brain,
correct?
Yeah, what we have to do ismeet that with empathy,
(10:59):
compassion, a active listeningear.
We want to create time, becausewhat we do know about suicidal
crisis, when it's happening inthe brain, it's often temporary.
Now that time frame could befive minutes, it could be an
hour, it could be a day, but wewant to create time for the
brain to kick out of that and Ithink this is so important.
(11:41):
So right now, I just want toclarify we are talking about
what to do when we're in acrisis.
Behaviors have changed.
That's a big one that peopleoften say.
We often hear there were nowarning signs and oftentimes
warning signs are subtle.
So you shared that.
You use the word committedbefore meeting me.
(12:03):
I use that word before beinghere with AFSP being a member,
being educated.
It was not something that Iknew.
Yeah, we need to shift, sothat's a thing everyone has to
kind of learn and there'sdefinitely grace in learning
that.
But the same concept of youknow, when we're addressing
somebody who is in in activesuicidal crisis, we want to
(12:25):
start asking them questions likeI've noticed that you are
sleeping too much.
You want to call out behaviorsif they're doing, come out in a
place of love.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Correct, not judgment .
Yes, right, because it'salready such a hard topic and I
think the reason why I lostjustin and he didn't like reach
out to um, somebody that couldreally truly help him.
I mean, he did reach out to acouple of friends but a lot of
people say, oh, I had no ideathis and that.
But when you really dive intoit, there were the signs and
there were a few people, butthose people, you know, did not
(12:56):
know what to do because theywere not educated and you know,
suicide is the second leadingcause of death in college
students.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
And so, but anyways, I don't want to get off track.
No, you're good, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
And that's I mean.
So anything we, what we educatepeople on, is, if you notice a
change, maybe it's the waythey're talking, maybe it's the
behavior that they're displayingor the mood that they're
displaying Anything that seemsabnormal or unusual.
Ask somebody hey, I noticed thiswas going on, Just want to
check in with you, Are you okay?
Yes, and then that is going toallow them the opportunity to
(13:28):
kind of open up and starttalking.
If you're sensing that they aresaying things like I feel like
a burden to my fam, I am in anoverwhelming amount of pain.
One thing that we do educatepeople on is you want to ask
about suicide directly?
Oftentimes, when I talk topeople, they'll say well, I
asked are you thinking ofharming yourself?
(13:49):
And while that is important,that can mean a myriad of things
too.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
To ask this question, but it's very empowering.
It's very scary, it's veryawkward, so it can be very
awkward.
You know what you?
I had to practice it.
I had to.
I literally had to practice itand it takes courage to actually
ask this question.
But I think the biggest reasonwhy people don't ask it people
(14:16):
are like what is, what is thequestion?
The question is um, are youthinking of killing yourself?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
yes, yeah, or are you thinking about suicide?
Are you thinking about suicidedirect?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
we want to, yes so you can say um, are you thinking
about killing yourself?
If are you suicidal right now,yes, what's another way to ask?
Speaker 2 (14:35):
um, do you have a plan to die by suicide?
Okay, so, and the plan part'simportant, which, if you say,
are you thinking about killingyourself?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
And they say yes, then the next ask do you have a
plan Right, so you can kind ofgauge where?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
they're at Correct and that leads to the second.
So the first big piece that wetalk about in suicide prevention
, there's two things that arevitally important that we found
through research Time.
We want to create time for thebrain to kick out of that
suicidal crisis right, so we canprovide resources and we can
get somebody to talk themselvesdown right, and that's why we
(15:12):
love 988.
That's why we love 988 yeah,it's such a vital resource.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
It really it truly is , and I mean, I think there's a
lot of people that don't don'tknow about it, but for sure, um.
So just to clarify yeah, it isokay to ask somebody are you
struggling with suicide?
Yeah, are you having thoughtsof suicide?
Do you want to kill yourself?
Do you have a plan in action?
Yep, and so I want everybody toremember this, because you may
(15:38):
be the only person that asksthat question yeah, you may be
the only person that ever asks.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Correct and expanding on that.
Oftentimes we'll all hear thisis a major myth in suicide
prevention is that well, if Iask somebody about suicide, then
I'm going to give them the ideaRight, which is not true.
It's not true.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Thank you for following it up, because that's
what I really wanted to say.
I was like that's where I wasgoing.
Yes, it is not true.
Can you say that again for us?
Yeah, I really want to drivethat in the brain.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
I love it.
Yeah, so there's a big myththat if we ask somebody directly
, are you thinking about suicideor are you thinking about
killing yourself, then you'regoing to give that person the
idea and it's not true.
That's not true.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
So don't be afraid to ask, don't be afraid to ask.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Ask the question and kind of following up on that and
expanding more on that.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
And don't feel bad about asking either.
Correct, because you could besaving a life.
I think for me I was like, ohmy gosh, they're going to be
offended, they're going to thinkthat I think that they're crazy
, right?
Because I think the reason whyJustin didn't reach out was
because I was labeled as thecrazy one in my family.
Okay, I struggled with suicidefrom the age of 13.
I was labeled crazy and he's myyounger brother, he's 10 years
(16:49):
younger than me, and he saw thatand he saw how, you know,
people around me treated mebecause I said I I am thinking
about killing myself.
You know the age of 13, I hadmy first attempt.
I was being bullied.
My parents are going through adivorce, like there was abuse
going on.
There's like multiple reasonswhy somebody you know would want
to die by suicide and whatnot,and it's because they are in so
(17:11):
much pain and like to.
You know, the brain obviouslyisn't fully developed and all
the things.
But I had struggled with thoseall the my whole life really and
I kept fighting and fighting,and fighting and fighting,
because I knew this is not theway, suicide is not the way,
right, and I, just, I, just, Iheld on until I found you know,
I went through the health caresystem I but I just feel like
(17:34):
there isn't enough education outthere, and that's why I wanted
to be part of an organizationthat truly helps people, because
I think what you do, jacqueline, is just amazing and I think,
like you don't even probablyknow the amount of lives that
you've changed.
Yeah, sorry, Nope.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
So I will say on that same vein you know and you can,
you can talk about this assomebody with lived experience.
Then I think it's important tohear from people with lived
experience, which is why I talkabout my lived experience and
you share, about yours.
When we ask somebody, are youthinking about suicide, somebody
(18:13):
who is thinking about suicideis given the opportunity to say
yes, right, and that is sopowerful, to say out loud, yeah,
that I'm not okay, yeah, and italso makes you feel seen, yeah,
which is huge.
I mean, do you agree withAbsolutely?
And if you had somebody at theage of 13 saying Jessica, yeah,
(18:36):
are you thinking about?
Speaker 1 (18:37):
suicide Right.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Nobody asked me that question, not in school, not any
of my counselors, and I alsothink that also speaks to a much
bigger thing that we could getinto.
But you know, oftentimes when Italk to people they're like
just cannot believe thatchildren would even remotely
have the thought around suicide,Right, Didn't you guys?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
just come up with a new program for kids.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yeah, what is it called so well, we've launched
an initiative here in Arkansascalled Project Renew, so it's a
high school initiative.
Yeah, it's a student-ledsuicide prevention initiative in
high schools.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, but then there's also another one for
kindergartners or for school.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
So we have it's Real Middle School, okay, and then
it's Real Teens and MentalHealth.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
I thought there was like a talking bear.
Oh.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Gizmo.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Gizmo.
Is it a bear?
Yes, no, he's a dog, yes.
So I haven't like updatedmyself with where you guys were
at with Gizmo.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
But Gizmo is a third party program that we use.
The idea behind it is it's asuper watered down safety plan.
Okay For, and it's third andfourth graders, third and fourth
graders.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
That's what I thought .
Okay, yeah, so the idea isCause Sheila, I think, is a
presenter for that, she wastalking about how much she loved
doing that.
Cause she was there as supportto help me do my first
presentation.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So Gizmo is great.
The idea behind it is we wantto start talking to kiddos and I
have a six year old and a twoyear old and I have already
started talking to my kids aboutyou know the worry monster.
And let's talk about, whenyou're feeling overwhelmed or
when you're feeling like youknow your stomach hurts, things
(20:20):
we can do to help that feelinggo away, to make it feel better.
What are some things?
And that's the same idea asgizmo.
Yeah, okay, when I'm feelingupset, can I go talk to a
trusted adult?
Right, who's that trusted adult?
I love that and I'm feelingoverwhelmed.
Can I do jumping jacks?
Will that help me?
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Or can I do some physical activity socials
available?
That would be super helpful forsomebody who's coming from a
very physically and verballyemotionally abusive family.
Yeah, and where in my family,um, you know, anytime something
went wrong, it's like, well,just let's just go, you know,
kill ourselves, and it's likethat, um, that's not what you
(21:14):
want to be teaching your child,and so that was a learned
behavior within my family, right, right, and you know, it's,
it's sad, but it's programmingand it's, yeah for sure, and I
think there's a lot of childrenout there that are abused.
I mean, I used to volunteer forthe children's shelter, yeah,
and my heart just goes out to.
My heart really just goes outto kids.
(21:35):
So I love that you guys havethat program.
That's beautiful, for sure.
Well, so I love that you guyshave that program.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
That's beautiful For sure.
Well, and you know that's partof that postvention piece.
You know, what we know is ACEsalso contribute to, so that's
adolescent childhood experiencesand those can or adverse
childhood experiences, excuse me, and those when those happen to
kiddos, that can actually putthem at a higher risk for
(21:59):
suicide, absolutely.
So that's super important forus in that prevention side of
things.
You know, you think of it as Ithink it's Desmond Tutu who
famously talked about withsuicide.
Think of it as a river.
We're all in a river and whatwe want is to stop folks from
(22:20):
getting down to the suicidalcrisis Right Way in advance.
True prevention.
Stop trying to pull them out ofthe river.
Let's stop them from evengetting in the river from yes In
the first place.
So that's that.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
That's huge, that's sure.
I mean that's huge, yeah,that's that's huge.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
And back on, you know we're talking about asking
somebody directly are youthinking about suicide?
And they say yes.
The next question has to be doyou have a plan?
And here's why that's important.
So the second thing is thefirst one was time.
The second thing is distance.
Okay, so we want to createdistance from the plan that has
been on somebody's mind and thatsuicidal individual.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
So removing firearms medication yes.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
What else?
Yeah, so we want to keep theenvironment safe, whatever that
looks like for that particularperson.
Right, we want to keep thatenvironment safe, right, and
here's what we've learned fromresearch is that individuals who
have been thinking aboutsuicide and have a plan, if you
remove that from theirenvironment, the likelihood of
them selecting another means,another lethal means, a way to
(23:26):
die by suicide is very low.
That is huge.
That is a huge factor insuicide prevention.
So, time and distance let'screate time for the brain to get
out of the suicidal crisis, yes, and let's create distance, yes
, so that we can continue to letthe brain get out of that
crisis, right, and that they nolonger have access to lethal
(23:49):
means I love how simple this is.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Right, it's such a heavy topic, right, but anybody
can understand what you'resaying.
That ain't now, yeah, correct,and anybody can choose to remove
that guy, right or right orright.
Move those pills, right orright, you know.
Remove the knife or whatever itis that is harmful to that
person, you know, yeah thingslike um, bridge barriers have
been incredibly impactful.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Uh, one community put up a bridge barrier.
They saw they were seeing anincrease in suicide rates and,
like on a specific bridge, yes,on a bridge and within the
community as a whole, right,right, and they put up bridge
barrier and they saw a 50%reduction in suicides in that
community.
Oh, wow, from one bridgebarrier.
Wow, so that's amazing.
(24:33):
We know that those things canmake a huge impact.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, oftentimes, when we hear from, yeah, it was
a mistake, it was a mistake, itwas a regret, yep, yeah, and so
that's, we're trying to createthat, and I believe that too,
(24:57):
and for, for my personalexperience, you know, um, keep
me on track here, because I wantto talk.
Yeah, I want, I want to.
I want to, like, talk about onething and then I want to talk
about, um, I don't know what wasthe community project that you
were working on to removefirearms from the house.
Yeah, the armory projectoryproject.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Is that still a thing ?
It's in full motion.
So what Jessica's talking aboutis last year we saw a report
actually it's been two years now, which is crazy we saw a CBS
report on a guy in Louisiana,who's a veteran, who owns a gun
shop in Louisiana.
Yes, and he had a friend thatshowed up one day and just was
(25:36):
kind of hanging around the shopand at the end of the visit said
do you mind holding my firearmsfor me?
And Caleb said sure, and thenthe guy disappeared and didn't
contact for like four months.
Caleb said man, what's going on?
Right?
And he says, struggling, I wasstruggling and I had nowhere
else to go and you're the onlyperson I knew that would take
(26:00):
this, take all my firearms and Icould keep myself safe.
And do we have a place likethat now in Arkansas?
We?
Speaker 1 (26:03):
have 12 locations.
Oh my goodness, I literallyhave goosebumps, because when I
first met you, this didn't exist.
It was something that you guyswere really working on.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I got despondent, I know yes, we cry, so um, but we
saw the report.
Yeah, louisiana, and solouisiana started as a
grassroots movement in tandemwith their va, and so, um, they
made this network of what iscalled a community armory.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
So these look yes, community armory, that's what I
was.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
So it's locations where people can voluntarily
surrender firearms, yes, andthis can be for really a whole
myriad of things.
I'm nervous for myself.
I'm actively suicidal.
I want to keep my environmentsafe.
My husband is actually suicidal.
I want to keep our environmentsafe.
I'm a grandparent, my grandkidsare coming over and I want to
(26:54):
keep our environment safe forthem.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Absolutely, it has far instead of giving it to a
friend or something else likethat, because we just never know
.
I mean correct.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, yeah, and so we started working on it.
And what's funny?
Speaker 1 (27:09):
is because it helps with the stigma too.
It's like you may not want togive it to your friend Right
helps with the stigma too.
It's like you may not want togive it to your friend right,
like yeah, you may not want yourfriend to know, because it is
it's so hard to talk about.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Yeah, you know it's so hard.
And specifically, what we seemore often is you know, men are
at a higher risk for suicide,yep, and firearms are more often
used, yeah, and so this allowsthat opportunity where you're
not having to call up a buddyand say I am not good, can you
take all of these.
Instead, you're going tosomeone who is very familiar
with fire.
(27:41):
It's another person in thatcommunity.
The way we worked on it, it'skind of funny.
(28:02):
We started working on itindependently, had no idea that
while we were working on it,little Rock VA was working on it
, because it goes through the VARight and so.
And then we had a moment wherewe reached out and said, hey,
can we work with you guys?
And they said this is thecraziest timing because we're
already there in Arkansas, we'reexpanding to Arkansas, but now
we need legislation to help usexpand.
And that's where AFSP came in.
On our advocacy effort yes, Ithink that was the year before I
(28:23):
went, yeah, so we advocatedwith all of our legislators and
got legislation actuallypresented.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
And guys.
That just goes to show howadvocacy does matter.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
It does, and I'll be really transparent.
When I got the call from myboard chair who's just
incredible human being she saidDo you think we could do this in
Arkansas?
I kind of laughed and said no,and I was negative.
I was, I didn't think it goingto be possible.
And then we started makingphone calls and one after
another was no, that makes sense.
(28:58):
Damn, we love it.
That's a really smart idea.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
It's a great idea.
So and I think a lot of peopleare weird oh, the government's
going to take my guns away, orthis is going to happen, or
that's going to happen.
Right, I'm a macho man, youknow, I'm in really able.
It's crazy, it's that you don'thave to.
You can just drop your weaponsoff.
Drop your guns off, you don'thave to say the reasons why.
Yeah, um, you can just dropthem off, hold them and well,
right, you can say whatever youneed to say, correct, and I
(29:23):
think the other, or whatever,you want to say.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
The other important part of this that I think folks
need to hear is that you know,obviously, all lethal means are
something we want to focus on.
How can we can, can we createdistance?
We know that that saves lives,yes, so why?
Firearms is something that wefeel like is something we need
to focus on, specifically herein Arkansas.
So 65 percent of people thatdie by suicide here in the state
(29:49):
is by fair and the nationalaverage is 50 percent.
So we're higher than thenational average, and it just
was something that, when I camein, we had to talk about.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Yeah, we have to talk about it, yeah, it was a big
part of that I want to tap into.
Let's see.
Oh yeah, it was a personalexperience.
You said, when somebody was theGolden Gate Bridge, the first
moment they stepped on a ledge,yeah, their first.
Uh, can you repeat that?
Speaker 2 (30:17):
yeah, their first thought is regret.
What they said to us isimmediately they didn't want to
do it.
Are you talking about thesurvivors?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
survivors that jumped .
Yes, ma'am, okay, yeah.
So there's two things I want totalk about.
I want to talk about personalexperience and then I want to
talk about how we're notsupposed to talk about the way
in which someone died also.
So I want to tap into that.
So, um, but just to um referenceit, after I had found my
brother who died by suicide,which was like very traumatic,
(30:45):
and I dealt with ptsd for a very, very, very long time, and
that's again why it took me sucha long time to get to this
point, um, to to be in a placewhere I'm educated and I have
the confidence to talk about it,right, um, because we don't
want to make something worse and, unknowingly, we may have the
best intentions in the world,but we may not know.
But, um, I heard justin's voiceafterwards.
(31:06):
I, I ran down the stairs and Iran out the front yard.
I looked at the sky and Iscreamed.
I was like, why, god, why?
And I hear justin's voice, bigsis, big sis, I didn't mean to.
And I look over at my brotherand I said, john, he didn't mean
to.
As an accident, yes, he died bysuicide.
But let just, I think just thesame thing what you're saying.
(31:28):
That moment that happened, youknow, survivors were like you
know, and so it was just.
I do believe that it's a regret, but I do believe that people
are in so much pain.
And then again, you know, Ispoke to the college students.
I said you know drugs andalcohol, you know Adderall
drinking like I know that's likeAdderall and drinking is like a
(31:48):
big thing in college students.
You know they think they needto take Adderall to test, test,
and Justin had alcohol andAdderall in his system at the
time where he made that decision.
Yeah, and that alters our brain, right.
And so I spoke at his funeral.
You know, sigma Pi came to hisfuneral and their fraternity was
suicide prevention, yeah, yeah.
(32:09):
And I said you guys, you knowwe, you got to look at the drugs
and the alcohol that aregetting mixed together.
And he also had NyQuil in hissystem at the same time, yeah,
so, yes, I do believe thatpeople you know people that are
already gone or people that havesurvived a suicide, do regret
(32:30):
it, yeah absolutely and I thinkto your point.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
It is important for people to hear you know we we do
talk about kind of the do's anddon'ts is we don't want to talk
about lethal means.
Yes, and the reasoning behindthis is because it can be
triggering for law survivors.
Yes, we don't want tore-traumatize people in graphic.
You know details and what we'vefound with suicide prevention
(32:54):
is that part of the story isactually not important, it's not
critical.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
This is one of the biggest reasons why I'm so glad
that I found you, because Ithought the opposite when I
first met you, but I neverreally spoke about it right,
like because to be vulgar oraggressive or to explain what
you saw or do this or do thatlike I thought that that would
really drive the nail intopeople and I think a lot of
people think that Right, youknow Right and people want to
(33:20):
know how Right, correct andpeople also want to know how
it's like.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Fascination as human beings it is.
Yes, we're fascinated by that.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
It doesn't the perpetuate correct problem?
Yeah, and that's what we wantedto say today.
Yeah, it does it, and but Ithought like, oh my gosh, if I'm
so intense with it, I'm sographic with it, that's really
gonna, like you know, drive itin to, to, to, just like you
know, share my emotionalexperience and how painful that
(33:47):
was for me, and so other peoplecan feel it.
But that's not necessary, right?
It's not, it's absolutely notnecessary.
I'm so glad I found you guysbefore I decided to, yeah, share
any of my personal story yeah,and you know that's oftentimes
when I engage with the community.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
People just don't know.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I mean a great and I would say, like if you know
someone that died by suicide,don't try not to ask how correct
.
Yeah, I would definitely likelet's not do that, like
definitely not do that.
I mean I'm gonna say, when I dohear about it, like even my
brain goes, I wonder how.
But like, yeah, not I thinkeverybody's brains does that
maybe, but let's, let's not dothat, guys for sure.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
And and, um, I have a great, so do not ask how.
I have a great example of this.
I, my husband and I went outand did the bourbon tour.
What do you do for a living?
And she said I'm a fundraiser,which is wild for me to find
(34:57):
fundraisers out in the wild.
But she was like, whatorganization do you work with?
And I said I work for theAmerican Foundation for Suicide
Prevention.
And her fiance whips his headaround and immediately starts
sharing all of this livedexperience.
Oh no, and it went from coolparty vibes to like all the way
(35:19):
so, and I think it's one ofthose things when it's an honest
thing of like, oh, you'resomebody who's safe to talk to
about suicide, which is great.
We want those things, right,right, those things.
But also, you know, we want tolimit sharing graphic details.
It's not necessary.
We also want to.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
You know, as we talked about previously, we want
to avoid because you cantrigger other people correct,
and I think that was the onething that I loved about you so
much, because you were likejessica.
I remember you're like what areyou doing to protect yourself?
Yeah, like, I want to make surethat you also and I think you
know um.
I advocated last year um inWashington and it was such an
amazing experience.
(35:58):
I think we got 32 new sponsorsin the senate, something like
that.
Don't quote me on my numbers,but I remember there was a point
in which, like, I choose toshare my story when I feel like
it really means the most or it'sgoing to create impact, right,
but you taught me how to limitit and you also told me it's
okay if you do not want to.
Yep, oh yeah, and I think thatfor people who suicide survivors
(36:22):
you have a heart for them tooand and like us that are left
behind, like sometimes all wethink about is like justin or my
dad or that person, and we failto think about ourselves and
what we need and and whatnot.
And so I remember I was havinga little, I was having a tough
day in Washington, because Ilimit how much I'm sharing, how
(36:47):
much I'm talking about it too,because, like, yeah, you know
how you think, it's how you feel, and if you're thinking a
certain way and no matter likewhere I'm at in my healing
journey and even though I don'tstruggle with suicide ideation
anymore, like you always want tokeep an eye on your mental
health and you you want to likejust make sure that you're in a
safe space and if it's too much,you you can tell yourself it's
(37:07):
okay to like back off a littlebit.
Right, and I remember that dayyou actually called me.
I think Karen picked up on it.
Karen called me and you're likehey, how you doing?
I'm, like, I'm good, and I hadjust shared my story like four
times and they were like blankstare.
And there was like oh, yeah,yeah.
And then there was also um,somebody from a different state,
from AFSP.
(37:27):
That um was kind of uh,basically like what did you just
call it?
Just pouring all their lifeexperiences and not really like
following the rules, graphicdetails, and I was like I don't
know if you think that you don'tfollow the rules, because, like
, because I'm also and I feellike you probably get that a lot
(37:48):
too, because I'm educated aswell so we're like this is a
safe place to do that, but itwas a lot for me and it actually
did trigger me.
And or, like this is a safeplace to do that, but it was a
lot for me and it actually didtrigger me and I had to go and
like lay down and like take amoment and like breathe.
But I love that.
You know every step of the wayI'm tearing up, every step of
the way you guys have supportedthat journey to help us be in a
(38:11):
place to help others.
Yeah, we also have to like takethat time.
Yeah, so it's like all the goodthat we want to do in the world
, it's also important to do thatgood for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Oh, 15, that you taught me that it's like to take
the time, and I think you guyshave a program for suicide
survivors as well, we, we have,we have several programs, so a
couple of them that I think areimportant for people to hear,
and I also want to expand onthis in saying like it's really
important to take care of lostsurvivors.
Yeah, and the things that Ihear that get sent to lost
(38:44):
survivors horrify me, trulyhorrify me.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
There's a stigma.
For that, too, there's a stigma.
Oh, you're the girl that losther brother.
You're the girl that lost herdad.
It was hard to smile, right,right, correct.
Why are you smiling?
You just lost your dad andbrother, like there was so much,
correct.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
It is.
The sum of the stuff that getssaid is just.
It truly breaks my heart.
Yeah, because our lostsurvivors have experienced some
of the darkest days that you canas a human being and they need
support and they need communityand they need somebody to show
up.
And the other thing they needis they need you to say their
(39:21):
name.
Say the lost person's name.
Wait, say your brother's name.
Oh really, when somebody istalking to you, yeah, oftentimes
what we hear from lostsurvivors is they won't say
their name.
Yeah, oftentimes what we hearfrom lost survivors is they
won't say their name.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
They won't talk about justin they.
Just how ironic is it that wemade the non-profit just in time
?
Speaker 2 (39:43):
they just say your brother, yeah, they won't talk
about it, and I think it's agenuine people are truly.
They don't want to upset you asa lot of survivor.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
That's all again like they.
People don't know how to talk,but they don't want to talk
about it, so they don't talkabout it, and that's why we're
here, that's why the podcastexists, so they don't talk about
it.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
But the thing is, it's like you need to hear me
say justin's name.
You know that's we need to usetheir names well, and do you
like what they do with the sim?
I love it.
Actually, I thought before westarted I was like did you
change the logo?
Because I love it.
It's great.
It's literally great.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
I did, oh, I love it, my podcast manager.
It's great.
I love it so much, it's so good.
Yeah, you know, like that it'sreally going to resonate and
yeah, it's a really great,really great podcast.
Then I will also do the oh forsure.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
But I will also say you know law survivors, couple
things.
If you have a law survivor inyour community or in your friend
group, talk to them about theirperson, check in on them, how
you doing.
Yes, because suicide loss isdifferent than other grief and
other loss grief, yeah, and it'sreally important that you
(41:01):
understand it's not linear.
So oftentimes I have lostsurvivors who you know.
One month we're going to setthe world on fire, we're going
to advocate, we're going to getin all the prevention, education
, we're gonna do all the, andthen boom, it hits them.
And then the next one crickets,totally silent.
Yeah, and it's because we'reback in being, or we're back in
(41:22):
being.
I don't, I'm not processing,and that's okay.
All those things are okay.
See, that's what I love aboutyou guys.
You know it's important to knowthose things, though it is
Interacting with lost survivors,right?
Yeah, it really is.
And it's also important to sayhey, jessica, if you don't want
to share your story at this time, that's okay.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
I need you to listen to that voice inside you that's
saying you told me that at theCapitol and I was like, no, I
want to do it.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
But I'll also say so.
The Saturday beforeThanksgiving is the
International Survivors ofSuicide Law Day, and we have
events take place all over thenation.
But the idea behind itoftentimes what I hear from law
survivors and reallyspecifically it's all law
survivors, but specifically Ihear this from parents that have
(42:09):
lost children yeah, is I justwant to talk to another parent.
I just want to talk to someoneelse who's experienced this
right.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
So you don't feel so alone, and it's true it's true,
it's.
It's weird how people have cometo me through the salon and sat
in my chair and yes, um, haveyou know, read the story and
they felt like it was a safeplace to talk to.
It's like it's just.
It's just it's kind of amazing,um, yeah, and I so how many
lives it's already touching andhow communities coming together.
(42:37):
One of the things, though, thatreally blew my mind was, for
every suicide, 25 others attemptCorrect.
Can you explain that?
Speaker 2 (42:49):
Yeah, there's like how did they figure that out?
Over a million families areaffected by suicide attempts.
Yeah, so that's the other thing.
When we're talking about youknow, I'm scared to ask somebody
if they're thinking aboutsuicide directly.
Oftentimes we'll tell peopleand you'll laugh at this.
And I've even said this in likepretty major meetings.
(43:09):
But we used to have this theoryabout sex education and if we
don't talk about sex, no onewill have it.
Same concept with suicide.
You can't sit here and say,well, if we don't talk about it,
then no one will do, no onewill die by suicide, nobody will
kill themselves, nobody's goingto think about suicide, and the
reality is it's already here.
(43:29):
People are thinking aboutsuicide.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Yeah, it is something that has to be addressed, it's
one of the largest aiding causesof death in the United States.
Yeah, and, and we're nottalking about it like we're
right to, we're not asking theright questions, correct?
Speaker 2 (43:43):
So that's, that's why we're you know, getting back on
Survivor Day and giving themopportunities to connect with
each other, because you needthat support.
You know I talk about you know,one month you may be great,
(44:05):
next month you're not so great.
And we launched a campaign lastyear in response, actually, to
a loss that happened here inArkansas.
That was pretty significant andit was someone from the mental
health community that died bysuicide and it just rocked us,
honestly, because what it saidto us was that, out of anyone,
that person should have knownthey could have reached out.
(44:28):
And there was an article thatcame out in January of last year
talking about the power ofeight minutes and the importance
of you know typically it takespeople's brains about eight
minutes to debrief and theimportance of having friends
that you can reach out to andset up.
(44:49):
Do you have eight minutes?
Yeah, and so we launched a doyou have eight minutes campaign.
And I don't know if you'refamiliar with simon cynic yeah,
but okay, cool, I love it.
Um, he put out on tiktok um avideo and he was being
interviewed.
Um, he had had a friend thattexted him and or they were
(45:09):
talking one day and she saidI've, I've really been
struggling like I've not beenokay.
And he said I kind of got madat her what do you mean you're
not okay, why don't you tell me?
And she said I've really beenstruggling Like I've not been
okay.
And he said I kind of got madat her what do you mean you're
not okay?
Why didn't you tell me?
And she said I did.
And he went back through histext messages and said where.
And she said when I asked doyou want to come over for dinner
?
And he goes how am I supposedto know that that's like you're
(45:30):
not okay.
That could be another Tuesday,right.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
And so now the code for that is do you have eight
minutes?
Do you have eight minutes?
Speaker 2 (45:37):
I love that, because then it's not you having to be
verbal and say I'm not okay,yeah, it's just.
Do you have eight minutes thatyou pick up the phone and call
me and talk to me?
Speaker 1 (45:51):
I love how creative that you guys got with that too,
because's like, okay, we knowthere's a segment, we know
people are afraid to reach out,so you created all these little
things in order for people tokind of, you know, reach out.
We just need to get them outinto the world, yeah, so, yeah,
um, I have, I'm just over themoon about having you on this
podcast.
I am so excited.
I feel like we could talk forhours and hours and hours, and,
(46:13):
um, I want to invite you back onthe show because I feel like we
have more to talk about and youbring so much value to the
world and so much education and,um, you know, my goal is that
the people that are listeningthat this, this, will help, or,
if you know somebody that'sstruggling, send them this video
.
You know, that's why we'redoing this.
Yeah, um, I know that we wantedto talk a little bit about right
(46:35):
before we get off.
Um, I don't know if you wantedto share a little bit about the
postpartum journey.
I know that that was a reallyimportant cause when I first met
you.
Yeah, um, and a program thatyou you wanted AFSP to possibly
create.
Yeah, and so where are you atwith that and and listeners
don't know what I'm talkingabout.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
So go ahead okay.
So, um, part of the reason whyI?
Um got really interested inafsp and why I'm here is I have
lived experience.
So what that means is I havestruggled with suicidal thinking
, um, and specifically aroundpostpartum.
So, uh, my first child.
He's six years old now.
I had no idea what I wasgetting myself into.
(47:14):
I was so excited to have a babyand be a mom and all the things
, and I just found myself in avery, very dark place.
And you know, I think we canexpand on that on another
project.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Yes, yes, but I am.
We'll keep the listenerslistening.
Yes, I tease you, but yeah, youknow one of the things that
there's a lot of women out therethat have postpartum and
probably need to hear what youhave to say, correct?
Speaker 2 (47:43):
And I think what you touched on briefly and what I'll
expand on is that, as we shareour story safely, yes, what I'm
finding is that women are saying, oh my gosh, me too, but I
didn't think I'd talk about itRight and there's this level of
extra stigma on postpartum thathas been a lot Like you're
supposed to be a mom.
Speaker 1 (48:04):
You're supposed to have a baby.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
You're supposed to be like taking care of complicated
.
And again going back to thecallback of when you ask
somebody if they're thinkingabout suicide, for them to say,
be able to say yes and feel seen, that's great.
So for me to hear from anotherperson and that's what kind of
(48:29):
pulled me out of it is I heardfrom another person, wow, the
same thoughts that I was feelingand the same things I was, and
you're like, okay, I'm not alonein this.
And I thought, oh, I'm not,weird, it's not me, it's not
just me, other people deal withthis.
And that's the whole point ofthat sharing that lived
experience.
Thankfully, we want to kind ofnormalize the conversation
around it.
Absolutely, people can go, oh,oh, okay, that's not just me.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
Yeah, and these conversations may be hard to
have, but people need to hearthem.
I think we're going to have alot of people listening to this
and a lot of people are going toget help from it.
Speaking of help, can you tellour listeners where they can go
to find, I guess, afspcom?
Yep, there's 988, all of thosethings that's going to be in our
intro and outro, and thenspecifically for suicide
(49:15):
survivors.
So everything is on the AFSPcomwebsite.
Yeah, it's AFSPorg Dot org.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
I'm sorry, you're good, you're good and it's got.
I mean, I will say our websiteis a plethora of information, so
if you're a law survivor,there's tons of free resources
on that website.
A lot of times, our lostsurvivors will say something
that was super helpful to themis we have two minute clips of
all of our researchers and whatthey have specifically studied.
(49:43):
Yes, and that is fascinating tome.
I enjoy watching those, butit's also been helpful for our
lost survivors that are reallybattling with that statement of
why, yeah, so going throughthose and kind of seeing those,
that's all on the website.
Volunteering with AFSP is onthe website.
If you're not in Arkansasspecifically, we have chapters
all over the nation so you canlook to see which chapter and we
(50:06):
have events coming up this fallcalled the Out of the Darkness
Walk, so you can engage that.
Yeah, just in time, did thewalk?
Yeah, it was amazing.
So, yeah, afsp, engage that.
Yeah, just in time, did thewalk.
Yeah, it was amazing.
So, um, yeah, apsborg, but then988, 988 is really an important
tool for people to know aboutand it's private, right, so
right, and it's important too,and this is something I shared
with jessica when we first metum was that 988 is not just for
(50:29):
the person that's in crisis.
It's for someone who might betaking care of somebody in
crisis, or if you're worriedabout something.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Right, you can call 988.
Yes, I had a friend in OrangeCounty.
She calls me and she says, hey,my husband is suicidal, I don't
know what to do.
I was like, oh my gosh,jacqueline, what do I do?
And she's like get 988 on thephone.
I was like, so we three-way 988.
And I said, hey, this is myfriend, her husband has lethal
(50:57):
means.
Like, can you please help me?
I have so much anxiety rightnow.
I want to help my friend butlike I'm.
I'm like kind of frozen rightnow.
I need your help.
And they walked us.
They stayed on the phoneprobably for an hour and 45
minutes, walked us througheverything Actually, like found
her a number to call her husband, went down to the clinic, got
the help that he needed.
(51:18):
He's here with us today.
That was gonna make me cry.
Yeah, he's here with us today.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
So yeah, but those are the things that are for
people.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
Yeah here, yeah and the thing is like a suicide.
It affects every single person.
It's not just, you know, poorpeople, rich people, middle
class good looking people notgood looking people, like
whatever it's it's, it's, it'severy single person.
Like you know, people couldlook at somebody and go.
They look like they have it alltogether, they're doing totally
(51:51):
fine, like gosh, I wish I couldbe them, but you have no idea
what they're struggling with.
You have no idea.
So, like you know, it's.
It's something that can affecteveryone at some point in their
life.
So well, I think this wraps upour episode.
Thank you for having me on.
Oh, my gosh, I can't wait tohave you on again.
If you're struggling, rememberhow you think is how you feel.
(52:12):
If you're feeling still heavy,start by shifting the thought.
You're not stuck.
Your brain can change, so canyour story.
I'm Jessica G.
This is the Just In Timepodcast and I'll see you next
time.
Until then, keep going, nevergive up and remember the world
is better with you in it,whether you believe it or not.
To help reach others, pleaseshare this with your friends,
family, and don't forget to like, subscribe and donate.
Hi, I'm Jessica G and this is the Just In Time
podcast.
If you're struggling today, Iwant you to know this podcast is
here for you, but it's not asubstitute for professional help
.
If you're in a crisis orfeeling unsafe, please call or
text 988 or dial 911 forimmediate support.
There are people out there whowill listen and can help.
On this show, I'll be sharingpersonal experiences, mindset
(00:22):
shifts, talking with key expertsand sharing real tools that
help me go from barely survivingto thriving.
This is not about quick fixesor one-size-fits-all advice.
It's raw, it's honest, it'swhat worked for me and what I
believe can help others too.
Let's walk together fromdarkness to hope.
Hello, hello everybody.
(00:45):
I'm Jessica G and this is theJust In Time podcast.
We are so excited about today'sepisode.
I know last episode we talkedabout bringing Jacqueline Sharp
on and she is here with us today.
Thank you so much for takingthe time and being here with us
today.
Thank you for having me.
She is the area director forAFSP and, for those of you that
(01:08):
don't know, afsp is the AmericanFoundation for Suicide
Prevention, so I guess we'll gointo a little bit about how we
met.
Yeah, okay, okay.
So I opened up the nonprofit.
I obviously had a mission andwhatnot, but I was very, very,
very scared about putting myselfout there.
I didn't know next steps and Iknow I wanted to make a
(01:30):
difference and an impact but Ijust wasn't sure how and I
didn't really have theconfidence to talk about.
You know, suicide, education,prevention and my story, yeah,
and we met a coffee shop.
Story, yeah, and we met acoffee shop and she looked at me
and she knew right where I wasat.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, for sure, and I was super pregnant, that's
right.
And so I got this.
I got a.
I think you called, maybe, andsaid, hey, I'm interested in
learning more information aboutsuicide and sharing my story and
talking about it safely.
And so I said, sure, sis, let'smeet for coffee.
And I just remember walking inand the one thing I remember
from that meeting was you werewilling and eager to learn, and
that's huge.
When you come across peoplethat want to learn the
(02:17):
appropriate ways to talk aboutsuicide, that is makes my job so
easy, because I can teach that,we can teach that.
That's why we're here.
So it was great.
And then it started a journeyof us just, you know, really
kind of working with each otherand it kind of spread to our
walks, our events, your eventsand advocacy side of stuff.
(02:39):
So it just grew from there,which is why I you know AFSP and
the grassroots movement of it.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yes, and I believe 1986 is when they were
established, yeah, and they'rebased a lot on research and
development and they havepresentations.
So we'll get into that in aminute.
But I became a presenter andJacqueline actually trained me
for Talk Save Lives, and so Ithink I did a presentation in a
(03:07):
minute.
But I became a presenter andJacqueline actually trained me
for Talk Save Lives, and so Ithink I did a presentation on a
couple of schools and I was sonervous you guys, just like I
was nervous to start thispodcast.
It took me months to get here.
But one of the things thatJacqueline really helped me with
was she looked at me and shewas like, okay, she's like, I
see where you're at, let's getyou educated properly, because
even at that time I'm just goingto give one example had been
(03:31):
five or six years, right, and Ijust was so afraid to perpetuate
a problem or I was afraid toput myself out there or say the
wrong thing, because you justnever know right and a lot of
people will go through loss andthey want to do something and
they want to make a difference,and I believe you guys have a
(03:52):
rule around that right.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, it's not a hard and fast rule, but suicide loss
grief is not linear and it'sreally important that we take
care of loss survivors.
Unfortunately, what we knowfrom research is that lost
survivors themselves are at agreater risk for suicide, and so
that's part of our mission isto take care of those that are
(04:16):
affected by suicide, and wenormally say you know, we want
you to wait about a year to twoyears after your loss, um, to
really engage with us, right?
But we also we we kind of weighthat according to the person.
Some loss survivors throwthemselves into the work because
that's what's going to helpthem heal, right, that's going
(04:38):
to be part of their healingjourney but then, within the
same token, you know you wantthem to be educated so they're
not causing harm.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, and we're going to.
We're going to dive in thattoday to like the do's and
don'ts with Miss JacquelineSharp and you know, you, you and
AFSP gave me the confidence toactually start moving that
needle forward, to to talk aboutit.
Yeah, you, you gave me theconfidence, and AFSP and to do
that, and even after goingthrough the training with you, I
(05:05):
was still nervous to about it.
You gave me the confidence inAFSP to do that and even after
going through the training withyou, I was still nervous to do
it right.
It's such a heavy topic.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
It's such a heavy topic, there's still so much
stigma associated with it, andwhen I train volunteers and law
survivors, I always talk to themabout listen.
We ask how far out you are fromyour loss, not to you know,
bring that back up or cause anypain, but really is to or
(05:34):
devalue what they want to do orany of that.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
It's just you're looking out for safety, correct,
yeah, and people, some peopleunderstand some people don't.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
And people will ask questions and they're not ever
questions that they're meaningto be inappropriate or mean.
It's just a lack of educationand you have to be prepared when
you go out into the communitythat you may get some, some
potentially offensive questions.
But that's why we do what we dois because we need to meet that
with education.
Yes, we need to meet that witheducation.
(06:04):
We need to meet that withcommon sense.
It has to be something thatpeople can understand, digest
and really be able to take outwork.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
And what is your thoughts with the health care
system?
Do you feel like our healthcare system is educated enough?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Well, I mean not just my thoughts.
We look at some of the datathat we pulled here in the state
of Arkansas.
You know, arkansas Children'sHospital always does an annual
review of the community.
What are the community needs?
But also internally, what arethe needs of their doctors and
their doctors and their medicalstaff?
And the number one thing thatcame up and this was a couple of
years ago is that they did notfeel prepared for all of the
(06:43):
behavioral health and the mentalhealth challenges that they're
seeing in the ER.
They've seen such an increaseand so they don't feel equipped.
I mean, my father is a retiredpediatrician and he even talks
about there's just not a ton oftraining that happened in
medical schools I have clientsthat are, you know, therapists,
psychologists, doctors, and theystill use some of the.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
You know, do not use words Correct, the no, no,
correct.
You know, yeah, and you know,when I met you I didn't even
know this, right, and I thinkthis is why education is so
important, and I will stopsomebody in their tracks.
I'll be like, hey, we don't usethe word commit because of X
and z.
Right, and we'll get into thatin a second, because I mean it
was, I think I met you aboutfive, five, six years after the
(07:27):
loss, yeah, um, and, and I thinkI was still using the word
commit, yeah, and I think maybeat that coffee shop you may have
told me that and I was like, ohmy gosh, I, I don't know.
And then it really hit me inthe training program I remember
you told us a story and you saidthere was a nine-year-old girl
(07:48):
that had died by suicide and themother, I believe, had seen it
reported on the news as thisnine-year-old committed suicide
and the mother was like mydaughter did not commit a crime
and so that's always stuck in myhead, yeah, yeah, I think you
shared that with us on ourtraining program.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
That's one of our lost survivors, lost her
daughter and you know, you thinkabout our language is ever
evolving.
One time I did a presentationat a pretty major corporation
and I got asked why is thatimportant to change our language
from committed to die bysuicide?
And I just said, you know,again, our language is ever
(08:29):
evolving and if there are waysthat we can change our language
to make it safer, to be moreinclusive of our lost survivors,
because individuals that die bysuicide, they're not committing
a crime, they're not committinga sin, right, like you wouldn't
say he committed brain cancer,right, correct?
Yeah, committing a crime.
They're not committing a sin,right, like you wouldn't say he
(08:50):
committed brain cancer, right,correct?
Yeah, that's the other.
That's what.
That's the narrative we'retrying to change.
Yes, if somebody dies from aheart attack, we're not, we're
not.
They committed a heart attack,exactly right right, and that's
ultimately where we're comingfrom is we want to take science,
yeah, and say, look, this iswhat we know from science.
This right, it is happening inthe brain and people.
When they are in suicidalcrisis, they're not able to
access the logistical side oftheir brain Correct and they're
(09:12):
experiencing the most painthey've ever experienced in
their whole life.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
And this reminds me of last episode we said we
talked about when someone's in acrisis, this is not the time to
tell somebody, hey, let'sreprogram your brain.
They cannot access that part oftheir brain.
When we were talking aboutneuroplasticity, harnessing
neuroplasticity to fight suicide, which is changing the way you
think.
That is not a crisis approachLike that comes.
(09:38):
That's like true preventionbefore somebody is in a crisis.
Right, and I want to touch onething I am in the presentation.
It talks about how brains ofsuicide.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Individuals die by suicide.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Yeah, they differ from their brains differ from
those that don't right, yes, soyeah, I think that, um, you know
dr joe dispensa.
He talks about harnessingneuroplasticity to fight suicide
and, um, our brains really domatter when it comes to this.
Yes, and I just I love the AFSP.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
It's backed up with research, oh yeah, and that you
know I'll expand on that.
So what we know of that is thatit differs specifically in the
impulsivity section of the brainwhich, if you think about a
suicidal crisis, it is thatmakes sense.
It's.
It's oftentimes an impulsivethought that happens or an
impulsive act that happens, andso what we know from research is
(10:35):
that that differs and so thathas also driven our education,
that we do in our training, thatwe do listen.
Somebody is can't access likethat thinking through process of
like right, oh, but I have afamily, oh, but I have they
can't access that right.
So what we?
They do not have control overthat part of their brain,
correct?
Yeah, what we have to do ismeet that with empathy,
(10:59):
compassion, a active listeningear.
We want to create time, becausewhat we do know about suicidal
crisis, when it's happening inthe brain, it's often temporary.
Now that time frame could befive minutes, it could be an
hour, it could be a day, but wewant to create time for the
brain to kick out of that and Ithink this is so important.
(11:41):
So right now, I just want toclarify we are talking about
what to do when we're in acrisis.
Behaviors have changed.
That's a big one that peopleoften say.
We often hear there were nowarning signs and oftentimes
warning signs are subtle.
So you shared that.
You use the word committedbefore meeting me.
(12:03):
I use that word before beinghere with AFSP being a member,
being educated.
It was not something that Iknew.
Yeah, we need to shift, sothat's a thing everyone has to
kind of learn and there'sdefinitely grace in learning
that.
But the same concept of youknow, when we're addressing
somebody who is in in activesuicidal crisis, we want to
(12:25):
start asking them questions likeI've noticed that you are
sleeping too much.
You want to call out behaviorsif they're doing, come out in a
place of love.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Correct, not judgment .
Yes, right, because it'salready such a hard topic and I
think the reason why I lostjustin and he didn't like reach
out to um, somebody that couldreally truly help him.
I mean, he did reach out to acouple of friends but a lot of
people say, oh, I had no ideathis and that.
But when you really dive intoit, there were the signs and
there were a few people, butthose people, you know, did not
(12:56):
know what to do because theywere not educated and you know,
suicide is the second leadingcause of death in college
students.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
And so, but anyways, I don't want to get off track.
No, you're good, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
And that's I mean.
So anything we, what we educatepeople on, is, if you notice a
change, maybe it's the waythey're talking, maybe it's the
behavior that they're displayingor the mood that they're
displaying Anything that seemsabnormal or unusual.
Ask somebody hey, I noticed thiswas going on, Just want to
check in with you, Are you okay?
Yes, and then that is going toallow them the opportunity to
(13:28):
kind of open up and starttalking.
If you're sensing that they aresaying things like I feel like
a burden to my fam, I am in anoverwhelming amount of pain.
One thing that we do educatepeople on is you want to ask
about suicide directly?
Oftentimes, when I talk topeople, they'll say well, I
asked are you thinking ofharming yourself?
(13:49):
And while that is important,that can mean a myriad of things
too.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
To ask this question, but it's very empowering.
It's very scary, it's veryawkward, so it can be very
awkward.
You know what you?
I had to practice it.
I had to.
I literally had to practice itand it takes courage to actually
ask this question.
But I think the biggest reasonwhy people don't ask it people
(14:16):
are like what is, what is thequestion?
The question is um, are youthinking of killing yourself?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
yes, yeah, or are you thinking about suicide?
Are you thinking about suicidedirect?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
we want to, yes so you can say um, are you thinking
about killing yourself?
If are you suicidal right now,yes, what's another way to ask?
Speaker 2 (14:35):
um, do you have a plan to die by suicide?
Okay, so, and the plan part'simportant, which, if you say,
are you thinking about killingyourself?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
And they say yes, then the next ask do you have a
plan Right, so you can kind ofgauge where?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
they're at Correct and that leads to the second.
So the first big piece that wetalk about in suicide prevention
, there's two things that arevitally important that we found
through research Time.
We want to create time for thebrain to kick out of that
suicidal crisis right, so we canprovide resources and we can
get somebody to talk themselvesdown right, and that's why we
(15:12):
love 988.
That's why we love 988 yeah,it's such a vital resource.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
It really it truly is , and I mean, I think there's a
lot of people that don't don'tknow about it, but for sure, um.
So just to clarify yeah, it isokay to ask somebody are you
struggling with suicide?
Yeah, are you having thoughtsof suicide?
Do you want to kill yourself?
Do you have a plan in action?
Yep, and so I want everybody toremember this, because you may
(15:38):
be the only person that asksthat question yeah, you may be
the only person that ever asks.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Correct and expanding on that.
Oftentimes we'll all hear thisis a major myth in suicide
prevention is that well, if Iask somebody about suicide, then
I'm going to give them the ideaRight, which is not true.
It's not true.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Thank you for following it up, because that's
what I really wanted to say.
I was like that's where I wasgoing.
Yes, it is not true.
Can you say that again for us?
Yeah, I really want to drivethat in the brain.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
I love it.
Yeah, so there's a big myththat if we ask somebody directly
, are you thinking about suicideor are you thinking about
killing yourself, then you'regoing to give that person the
idea and it's not true.
That's not true.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
So don't be afraid to ask, don't be afraid to ask.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Ask the question and kind of following up on that and
expanding more on that.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
And don't feel bad about asking either.
Correct, because you could besaving a life.
I think for me I was like, ohmy gosh, they're going to be
offended, they're going to thinkthat I think that they're crazy
, right?
Because I think the reason whyJustin didn't reach out was
because I was labeled as thecrazy one in my family.
Okay, I struggled with suicidefrom the age of 13.
I was labeled crazy and he's myyounger brother, he's 10 years
(16:49):
younger than me, and he saw thatand he saw how, you know,
people around me treated mebecause I said I I am thinking
about killing myself.
You know the age of 13, I hadmy first attempt.
I was being bullied.
My parents are going through adivorce, like there was abuse
going on.
There's like multiple reasonswhy somebody you know would want
to die by suicide and whatnot,and it's because they are in so
(17:11):
much pain and like to.
You know, the brain obviouslyisn't fully developed and all
the things.
But I had struggled with thoseall the my whole life really and
I kept fighting and fighting,and fighting and fighting,
because I knew this is not theway, suicide is not the way,
right, and I, just, I, just, Iheld on until I found you know,
I went through the health caresystem I but I just feel like
(17:34):
there isn't enough education outthere, and that's why I wanted
to be part of an organizationthat truly helps people, because
I think what you do, jacqueline, is just amazing and I think,
like you don't even probablyknow the amount of lives that
you've changed.
Yeah, sorry, Nope.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
So I will say on that same vein you know and you can,
you can talk about this assomebody with lived experience.
Then I think it's important tohear from people with lived
experience, which is why I talkabout my lived experience and
you share, about yours.
When we ask somebody, are youthinking about suicide, somebody
(18:13):
who is thinking about suicideis given the opportunity to say
yes, right, and that is sopowerful, to say out loud, yeah,
that I'm not okay, yeah, and italso makes you feel seen, yeah,
which is huge.
I mean, do you agree withAbsolutely?
And if you had somebody at theage of 13 saying Jessica, yeah,
(18:36):
are you thinking about?
Speaker 1 (18:37):
suicide Right.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Nobody asked me that question, not in school, not any
of my counselors, and I alsothink that also speaks to a much
bigger thing that we could getinto.
But you know, oftentimes when Italk to people they're like
just cannot believe thatchildren would even remotely
have the thought around suicide,Right, Didn't you guys?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
just come up with a new program for kids.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yeah, what is it called so well, we've launched
an initiative here in Arkansascalled Project Renew, so it's a
high school initiative.
Yeah, it's a student-ledsuicide prevention initiative in
high schools.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, but then there's also another one for
kindergartners or for school.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
So we have it's Real Middle School, okay, and then
it's Real Teens and MentalHealth.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
I thought there was like a talking bear.
Oh.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Gizmo.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Gizmo.
Is it a bear?
Yes, no, he's a dog, yes.
So I haven't like updatedmyself with where you guys were
at with Gizmo.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
But Gizmo is a third party program that we use.
The idea behind it is it's asuper watered down safety plan.
Okay For, and it's third andfourth graders, third and fourth
graders.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
That's what I thought .
Okay, yeah, so the idea isCause Sheila, I think, is a
presenter for that, she wastalking about how much she loved
doing that.
Cause she was there as supportto help me do my first
presentation.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So Gizmo is great.
The idea behind it is we wantto start talking to kiddos and I
have a six year old and a twoyear old and I have already
started talking to my kids aboutyou know the worry monster.
And let's talk about, whenyou're feeling overwhelmed or
when you're feeling like youknow your stomach hurts, things
(20:20):
we can do to help that feelinggo away, to make it feel better.
What are some things?
And that's the same idea asgizmo.
Yeah, okay, when I'm feelingupset, can I go talk to a
trusted adult?
Right, who's that trusted adult?
I love that and I'm feelingoverwhelmed.
Can I do jumping jacks?
Will that help me?
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Or can I do some physical activity socials
available?
That would be super helpful forsomebody who's coming from a
very physically and verballyemotionally abusive family.
Yeah, and where in my family,um, you know, anytime something
went wrong, it's like, well,just let's just go, you know,
kill ourselves, and it's likethat, um, that's not what you
(21:14):
want to be teaching your child,and so that was a learned
behavior within my family, right, right, and you know, it's,
it's sad, but it's programmingand it's, yeah for sure, and I
think there's a lot of childrenout there that are abused.
I mean, I used to volunteer forthe children's shelter, yeah,
and my heart just goes out to.
My heart really just goes outto kids.
(21:35):
So I love that you guys havethat program.
That's beautiful, for sure.
Well, so I love that you guyshave that program.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
That's beautiful For sure.
Well, and you know that's partof that postvention piece.
You know, what we know is ACEsalso contribute to, so that's
adolescent childhood experiencesand those can or adverse
childhood experiences, excuse me, and those when those happen to
kiddos, that can actually putthem at a higher risk for
(21:59):
suicide, absolutely.
So that's super important forus in that prevention side of
things.
You know, you think of it as Ithink it's Desmond Tutu who
famously talked about withsuicide.
Think of it as a river.
We're all in a river and whatwe want is to stop folks from
(22:20):
getting down to the suicidalcrisis Right Way in advance.
True prevention.
Stop trying to pull them out ofthe river.
Let's stop them from evengetting in the river from yes In
the first place.
So that's that.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
That's huge, that's sure.
I mean that's huge, yeah,that's that's huge.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
And back on, you know we're talking about asking
somebody directly are youthinking about suicide?
And they say yes.
The next question has to be doyou have a plan?
And here's why that's important.
So the second thing is thefirst one was time.
The second thing is distance.
Okay, so we want to createdistance from the plan that has
been on somebody's mind and thatsuicidal individual.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
So removing firearms medication yes.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
What else?
Yeah, so we want to keep theenvironment safe, whatever that
looks like for that particularperson.
Right, we want to keep thatenvironment safe, right, and
here's what we've learned fromresearch is that individuals who
have been thinking aboutsuicide and have a plan, if you
remove that from theirenvironment, the likelihood of
them selecting another means,another lethal means, a way to
(23:26):
die by suicide is very low.
That is huge.
That is a huge factor insuicide prevention.
So, time and distance let'screate time for the brain to get
out of the suicidal crisis, yes, and let's create distance, yes
, so that we can continue to letthe brain get out of that
crisis, right, and that they nolonger have access to lethal
(23:49):
means I love how simple this is.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Right, it's such a heavy topic, right, but anybody
can understand what you'resaying.
That ain't now, yeah, correct,and anybody can choose to remove
that guy, right or right orright.
Move those pills, right orright, you know.
Remove the knife or whatever itis that is harmful to that
person, you know, yeah thingslike um, bridge barriers have
been incredibly impactful.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Uh, one community put up a bridge barrier.
They saw they were seeing anincrease in suicide rates and,
like on a specific bridge, yes,on a bridge and within the
community as a whole, right,right, and they put up bridge
barrier and they saw a 50%reduction in suicides in that
community.
Oh, wow, from one bridgebarrier.
Wow, so that's amazing.
(24:33):
We know that those things canmake a huge impact.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, oftentimes, when we hear from, yeah, it was
a mistake, it was a mistake, itwas a regret, yep, yeah, and so
that's, we're trying to createthat, and I believe that too,
(24:57):
and for, for my personalexperience, you know, um, keep
me on track here, because I wantto talk.
Yeah, I want, I want to.
I want to, like, talk about onething and then I want to talk
about, um, I don't know what wasthe community project that you
were working on to removefirearms from the house.
Yeah, the armory projectoryproject.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Is that still a thing ?
It's in full motion.
So what Jessica's talking aboutis last year we saw a report
actually it's been two years now, which is crazy we saw a CBS
report on a guy in Louisiana,who's a veteran, who owns a gun
shop in Louisiana.
Yes, and he had a friend thatshowed up one day and just was
(25:36):
kind of hanging around the shopand at the end of the visit said
do you mind holding my firearmsfor me?
And Caleb said sure, and thenthe guy disappeared and didn't
contact for like four months.
Caleb said man, what's going on?
Right?
And he says, struggling, I wasstruggling and I had nowhere
else to go and you're the onlyperson I knew that would take
(26:00):
this, take all my firearms and Icould keep myself safe.
And do we have a place likethat now in Arkansas?
We?
Speaker 1 (26:03):
have 12 locations.
Oh my goodness, I literallyhave goosebumps, because when I
first met you, this didn't exist.
It was something that you guyswere really working on.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I got despondent, I know yes, we cry, so um, but we
saw the report.
Yeah, louisiana, and solouisiana started as a
grassroots movement in tandemwith their va, and so, um, they
made this network of what iscalled a community armory.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
So these look yes, community armory, that's what I
was.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
So it's locations where people can voluntarily
surrender firearms, yes, andthis can be for really a whole
myriad of things.
I'm nervous for myself.
I'm actively suicidal.
I want to keep my environmentsafe.
My husband is actually suicidal.
I want to keep our environmentsafe.
I'm a grandparent, my grandkidsare coming over and I want to
(26:54):
keep our environment safe forthem.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Absolutely, it has far instead of giving it to a
friend or something else likethat, because we just never know
.
I mean correct.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, yeah, and so we started working on it.
And what's funny?
Speaker 1 (27:09):
is because it helps with the stigma too.
It's like you may not want togive it to your friend Right
helps with the stigma too.
It's like you may not want togive it to your friend right,
like yeah, you may not want yourfriend to know, because it is
it's so hard to talk about.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Yeah, you know it's so hard.
And specifically, what we seemore often is you know, men are
at a higher risk for suicide,yep, and firearms are more often
used, yeah, and so this allowsthat opportunity where you're
not having to call up a buddyand say I am not good, can you
take all of these.
Instead, you're going tosomeone who is very familiar
with fire.
(27:41):
It's another person in thatcommunity.
The way we worked on it, it'skind of funny.
(28:02):
We started working on itindependently, had no idea that
while we were working on it,little Rock VA was working on it
, because it goes through the VARight and so.
And then we had a moment wherewe reached out and said, hey,
can we work with you guys?
And they said this is thecraziest timing because we're
already there in Arkansas, we'reexpanding to Arkansas, but now
we need legislation to help usexpand.
And that's where AFSP came in.
On our advocacy effort yes, Ithink that was the year before I
(28:23):
went, yeah, so we advocatedwith all of our legislators and
got legislation actuallypresented.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
And guys.
That just goes to show howadvocacy does matter.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
It does, and I'll be really transparent.
When I got the call from myboard chair who's just
incredible human being she saidDo you think we could do this in
Arkansas?
I kind of laughed and said no,and I was negative.
I was, I didn't think it goingto be possible.
And then we started makingphone calls and one after
another was no, that makes sense.
(28:58):
Damn, we love it.
That's a really smart idea.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
It's a great idea.
So and I think a lot of peopleare weird oh, the government's
going to take my guns away, orthis is going to happen, or
that's going to happen.
Right, I'm a macho man, youknow, I'm in really able.
It's crazy, it's that you don'thave to.
You can just drop your weaponsoff.
Drop your guns off, you don'thave to say the reasons why.
Yeah, um, you can just dropthem off, hold them and well,
right, you can say whatever youneed to say, correct, and I
(29:23):
think the other, or whatever,you want to say.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
The other important part of this that I think folks
need to hear is that you know,obviously, all lethal means are
something we want to focus on.
How can we can, can we createdistance?
We know that that saves lives,yes, so why?
Firearms is something that wefeel like is something we need
to focus on, specifically herein Arkansas.
So 65 percent of people thatdie by suicide here in the state
(29:49):
is by fair and the nationalaverage is 50 percent.
So we're higher than thenational average, and it just
was something that, when I camein, we had to talk about.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Yeah, we have to talk about it, yeah, it was a big
part of that I want to tap into.
Let's see.
Oh yeah, it was a personalexperience.
You said, when somebody was theGolden Gate Bridge, the first
moment they stepped on a ledge,yeah, their first.
Uh, can you repeat that?
Speaker 2 (30:17):
yeah, their first thought is regret.
What they said to us isimmediately they didn't want to
do it.
Are you talking about thesurvivors?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
survivors that jumped .
Yes, ma'am, okay, yeah.
So there's two things I want totalk about.
I want to talk about personalexperience and then I want to
talk about how we're notsupposed to talk about the way
in which someone died also.
So I want to tap into that.
So, um, but just to um referenceit, after I had found my
brother who died by suicide,which was like very traumatic,
(30:45):
and I dealt with ptsd for a very, very, very long time, and
that's again why it took me sucha long time to get to this
point, um, to to be in a placewhere I'm educated and I have
the confidence to talk about it,right, um, because we don't
want to make something worse and, unknowingly, we may have the
best intentions in the world,but we may not know.
But, um, I heard justin's voiceafterwards.
(31:06):
I, I ran down the stairs and Iran out the front yard.
I looked at the sky and Iscreamed.
I was like, why, god, why?
And I hear justin's voice, bigsis, big sis, I didn't mean to.
And I look over at my brotherand I said, john, he didn't mean
to.
As an accident, yes, he died bysuicide.
But let just, I think just thesame thing what you're saying.
(31:28):
That moment that happened, youknow, survivors were like you
know, and so it was just.
I do believe that it's a regret, but I do believe that people
are in so much pain.
And then again, you know, Ispoke to the college students.
I said you know drugs andalcohol, you know Adderall
drinking like I know that's likeAdderall and drinking is like a
(31:48):
big thing in college students.
You know they think they needto take Adderall to test, test,
and Justin had alcohol andAdderall in his system at the
time where he made that decision.
Yeah, and that alters our brain, right.
And so I spoke at his funeral.
You know, sigma Pi came to hisfuneral and their fraternity was
suicide prevention, yeah, yeah.
(32:09):
And I said you guys, you knowwe, you got to look at the drugs
and the alcohol that aregetting mixed together.
And he also had NyQuil in hissystem at the same time, yeah,
so, yes, I do believe thatpeople you know people that are
already gone or people that havesurvived a suicide, do regret
(32:30):
it, yeah absolutely and I thinkto your point.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
It is important for people to hear you know we we do
talk about kind of the do's anddon'ts is we don't want to talk
about lethal means.
Yes, and the reasoning behindthis is because it can be
triggering for law survivors.
Yes, we don't want tore-traumatize people in graphic.
You know details and what we'vefound with suicide prevention
(32:54):
is that part of the story isactually not important, it's not
critical.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
This is one of the biggest reasons why I'm so glad
that I found you, because Ithought the opposite when I
first met you, but I neverreally spoke about it right,
like because to be vulgar oraggressive or to explain what
you saw or do this or do thatlike I thought that that would
really drive the nail intopeople and I think a lot of
people think that Right, youknow Right and people want to
(33:20):
know how Right, correct andpeople also want to know how
it's like.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Fascination as human beings it is.
Yes, we're fascinated by that.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
It doesn't the perpetuate correct problem?
Yeah, and that's what we wantedto say today.
Yeah, it does it, and but Ithought like, oh my gosh, if I'm
so intense with it, I'm sographic with it, that's really
gonna, like you know, drive itin to, to, to, just like you
know, share my emotionalexperience and how painful that
(33:47):
was for me, and so other peoplecan feel it.
But that's not necessary, right?
It's not, it's absolutely notnecessary.
I'm so glad I found you guysbefore I decided to, yeah, share
any of my personal story yeah,and you know that's oftentimes
when I engage with the community.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
People just don't know.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I mean a great and I would say, like if you know
someone that died by suicide,don't try not to ask how correct
.
Yeah, I would definitely likelet's not do that, like
definitely not do that.
I mean I'm gonna say, when I dohear about it, like even my
brain goes, I wonder how.
But like, yeah, not I thinkeverybody's brains does that
maybe, but let's, let's not dothat, guys for sure.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
And and, um, I have a great, so do not ask how.
I have a great example of this.
I, my husband and I went outand did the bourbon tour.
What do you do for a living?
And she said I'm a fundraiser,which is wild for me to find
(34:57):
fundraisers out in the wild.
But she was like, whatorganization do you work with?
And I said I work for theAmerican Foundation for Suicide
Prevention.
And her fiance whips his headaround and immediately starts
sharing all of this livedexperience.
Oh no, and it went from coolparty vibes to like all the way
(35:19):
so, and I think it's one ofthose things when it's an honest
thing of like, oh, you'resomebody who's safe to talk to
about suicide, which is great.
We want those things, right,right, those things.
But also, you know, we want tolimit sharing graphic details.
It's not necessary.
We also want to.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
You know, as we talked about previously, we want
to avoid because you cantrigger other people correct,
and I think that was the onething that I loved about you so
much, because you were likejessica.
I remember you're like what areyou doing to protect yourself?
Yeah, like, I want to make surethat you also and I think you
know um.
I advocated last year um inWashington and it was such an
amazing experience.
(35:58):
I think we got 32 new sponsorsin the senate, something like
that.
Don't quote me on my numbers,but I remember there was a point
in which, like, I choose toshare my story when I feel like
it really means the most or it'sgoing to create impact, right,
but you taught me how to limitit and you also told me it's
okay if you do not want to.
Yep, oh yeah, and I think thatfor people who suicide survivors
(36:22):
you have a heart for them tooand and like us that are left
behind, like sometimes all wethink about is like justin or my
dad or that person, and we failto think about ourselves and
what we need and and whatnot.
And so I remember I was havinga little, I was having a tough
day in Washington, because Ilimit how much I'm sharing, how
(36:47):
much I'm talking about it too,because, like, yeah, you know
how you think, it's how you feel, and if you're thinking a
certain way and no matter likewhere I'm at in my healing
journey and even though I don'tstruggle with suicide ideation
anymore, like you always want tokeep an eye on your mental
health and you you want to likejust make sure that you're in a
safe space and if it's too much,you you can tell yourself it's
(37:07):
okay to like back off a littlebit.
Right, and I remember that dayyou actually called me.
I think Karen picked up on it.
Karen called me and you're likehey, how you doing?
I'm, like, I'm good, and I hadjust shared my story like four
times and they were like blankstare.
And there was like oh, yeah,yeah.
And then there was also um,somebody from a different state,
from AFSP.
(37:27):
That um was kind of uh,basically like what did you just
call it?
Just pouring all their lifeexperiences and not really like
following the rules, graphicdetails, and I was like I don't
know if you think that you don'tfollow the rules, because, like
, because I'm also and I feellike you probably get that a lot
(37:48):
too, because I'm educated aswell so we're like this is a
safe place to do that, but itwas a lot for me and it actually
did trigger me.
And or, like this is a safeplace to do that, but it was a
lot for me and it actually didtrigger me and I had to go and
like lay down and like take amoment and like breathe.
But I love that.
You know every step of the wayI'm tearing up, every step of
the way you guys have supportedthat journey to help us be in a
(38:11):
place to help others.
Yeah, we also have to like takethat time.
Yeah, so it's like all the goodthat we want to do in the world
, it's also important to do thatgood for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Oh, 15, that you taught me that it's like to take
the time, and I think you guyshave a program for suicide
survivors as well, we, we have,we have several programs, so a
couple of them that I think areimportant for people to hear,
and I also want to expand onthis in saying like it's really
important to take care of lostsurvivors.
Yeah, and the things that Ihear that get sent to lost
(38:44):
survivors horrify me, trulyhorrify me.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
There's a stigma.
For that, too, there's a stigma.
Oh, you're the girl that losther brother.
You're the girl that lost herdad.
It was hard to smile, right,right, correct.
Why are you smiling?
You just lost your dad andbrother, like there was so much,
correct.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
It is.
The sum of the stuff that getssaid is just.
It truly breaks my heart.
Yeah, because our lostsurvivors have experienced some
of the darkest days that you canas a human being and they need
support and they need communityand they need somebody to show
up.
And the other thing they needis they need you to say their
(39:21):
name.
Say the lost person's name.
Wait, say your brother's name.
Oh really, when somebody istalking to you, yeah, oftentimes
what we hear from lostsurvivors is they won't say
their name.
Yeah, oftentimes what we hearfrom lost survivors is they
won't say their name.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
They won't talk about justin they.
Just how ironic is it that wemade the non-profit just in time
?
Speaker 2 (39:43):
they just say your brother, yeah, they won't talk
about it, and I think it's agenuine people are truly.
They don't want to upset you asa lot of survivor.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
That's all again like they.
People don't know how to talk,but they don't want to talk
about it, so they don't talkabout it, and that's why we're
here, that's why the podcastexists, so they don't talk about
it.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
But the thing is, it's like you need to hear me
say justin's name.
You know that's we need to usetheir names well, and do you
like what they do with the sim?
I love it.
Actually, I thought before westarted I was like did you
change the logo?
Because I love it.
It's great.
It's literally great.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
I did, oh, I love it, my podcast manager.
It's great.
I love it so much, it's so good.
Yeah, you know, like that it'sreally going to resonate and
yeah, it's a really great,really great podcast.
Then I will also do the oh forsure.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
But I will also say you know law survivors, couple
things.
If you have a law survivor inyour community or in your friend
group, talk to them about theirperson, check in on them, how
you doing.
Yes, because suicide loss isdifferent than other grief and
other loss grief, yeah, and it'sreally important that you
(41:01):
understand it's not linear.
So oftentimes I have lostsurvivors who you know.
One month we're going to setthe world on fire, we're going
to advocate, we're going to getin all the prevention, education
, we're gonna do all the, andthen boom, it hits them.
And then the next one crickets,totally silent.
Yeah, and it's because we'reback in being, or we're back in
(41:22):
being.
I don't, I'm not processing,and that's okay.
All those things are okay.
See, that's what I love aboutyou guys.
You know it's important to knowthose things, though it is
Interacting with lost survivors,right?
Yeah, it really is.
And it's also important to sayhey, jessica, if you don't want
to share your story at this time, that's okay.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
I need you to listen to that voice inside you that's
saying you told me that at theCapitol and I was like, no, I
want to do it.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
But I'll also say so.
The Saturday beforeThanksgiving is the
International Survivors ofSuicide Law Day, and we have
events take place all over thenation.
But the idea behind itoftentimes what I hear from law
survivors and reallyspecifically it's all law
survivors, but specifically Ihear this from parents that have
(42:09):
lost children yeah, is I justwant to talk to another parent.
I just want to talk to someoneelse who's experienced this
right.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
So you don't feel so alone, and it's true it's true,
it's.
It's weird how people have cometo me through the salon and sat
in my chair and yes, um, haveyou know, read the story and
they felt like it was a safeplace to talk to.
It's like it's just.
It's just it's kind of amazing,um, yeah, and I so how many
lives it's already touching andhow communities coming together.
(42:37):
One of the things, though, thatreally blew my mind was, for
every suicide, 25 others attemptCorrect.
Can you explain that?
Speaker 2 (42:49):
Yeah, there's like how did they figure that out?
Over a million families areaffected by suicide attempts.
Yeah, so that's the other thing.
When we're talking about youknow, I'm scared to ask somebody
if they're thinking aboutsuicide directly.
Oftentimes we'll tell peopleand you'll laugh at this.
And I've even said this in likepretty major meetings.
(43:09):
But we used to have this theoryabout sex education and if we
don't talk about sex, no onewill have it.
Same concept with suicide.
You can't sit here and say,well, if we don't talk about it,
then no one will do, no onewill die by suicide, nobody will
kill themselves, nobody's goingto think about suicide, and the
reality is it's already here.
(43:29):
People are thinking aboutsuicide.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Yeah, it is something that has to be addressed, it's
one of the largest aiding causesof death in the United States.
Yeah, and, and we're nottalking about it like we're
right to, we're not asking theright questions, correct?
Speaker 2 (43:43):
So that's, that's why we're you know, getting back on
Survivor Day and giving themopportunities to connect with
each other, because you needthat support.
You know I talk about you know,one month you may be great,
(44:05):
next month you're not so great.
And we launched a campaign lastyear in response, actually, to
a loss that happened here inArkansas.
That was pretty significant andit was someone from the mental
health community that died bysuicide and it just rocked us,
honestly, because what it saidto us was that, out of anyone,
that person should have knownthey could have reached out.
(44:28):
And there was an article thatcame out in January of last year
talking about the power ofeight minutes and the importance
of you know typically it takespeople's brains about eight
minutes to debrief and theimportance of having friends
that you can reach out to andset up.
(44:49):
Do you have eight minutes?
Yeah, and so we launched a doyou have eight minutes campaign.
And I don't know if you'refamiliar with simon cynic yeah,
but okay, cool, I love it.
Um, he put out on tiktok um avideo and he was being
interviewed.
Um, he had had a friend thattexted him and or they were
(45:09):
talking one day and she saidI've, I've really been
struggling like I've not beenokay.
And he said I kind of got madat her what do you mean you're
not okay, why don't you tell me?
And she said I've really beenstruggling Like I've not been
okay.
And he said I kind of got madat her what do you mean you're
not okay?
Why didn't you tell me?
And she said I did.
And he went back through histext messages and said where.
And she said when I asked doyou want to come over for dinner
?
And he goes how am I supposedto know that that's like you're
(45:30):
not okay.
That could be another Tuesday,right.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
And so now the code for that is do you have eight
minutes?
Do you have eight minutes?
Speaker 2 (45:37):
I love that, because then it's not you having to be
verbal and say I'm not okay,yeah, it's just.
Do you have eight minutes thatyou pick up the phone and call
me and talk to me?
Speaker 1 (45:51):
I love how creative that you guys got with that too,
because's like, okay, we knowthere's a segment, we know
people are afraid to reach out,so you created all these little
things in order for people tokind of, you know, reach out.
We just need to get them outinto the world, yeah, so, yeah,
um, I have, I'm just over themoon about having you on this
podcast.
I am so excited.
I feel like we could talk forhours and hours and hours, and,
(46:13):
um, I want to invite you back onthe show because I feel like we
have more to talk about and youbring so much value to the
world and so much education and,um, you know, my goal is that
the people that are listeningthat this, this, will help, or,
if you know somebody that'sstruggling, send them this video
.
You know, that's why we'redoing this.
Yeah, um, I know that we wantedto talk a little bit about right
(46:35):
before we get off.
Um, I don't know if you wantedto share a little bit about the
postpartum journey.
I know that that was a reallyimportant cause when I first met
you.
Yeah, um, and a program thatyou you wanted AFSP to possibly
create.
Yeah, and so where are you atwith that and and listeners
don't know what I'm talkingabout.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
So go ahead okay.
So, um, part of the reason whyI?
Um got really interested inafsp and why I'm here is I have
lived experience.
So what that means is I havestruggled with suicidal thinking
, um, and specifically aroundpostpartum.
So, uh, my first child.
He's six years old now.
I had no idea what I wasgetting myself into.
(47:14):
I was so excited to have a babyand be a mom and all the things
, and I just found myself in avery, very dark place.
And you know, I think we canexpand on that on another
project.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Yes, yes, but I am.
We'll keep the listenerslistening.
Yes, I tease you, but yeah, youknow one of the things that
there's a lot of women out therethat have postpartum and
probably need to hear what youhave to say, correct?
Speaker 2 (47:43):
And I think what you touched on briefly and what I'll
expand on is that, as we shareour story safely, yes, what I'm
finding is that women are saying, oh my gosh, me too, but I
didn't think I'd talk about itRight and there's this level of
extra stigma on postpartum thathas been a lot Like you're
supposed to be a mom.
Speaker 1 (48:04):
You're supposed to have a baby.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
You're supposed to be like taking care of complicated
.
And again going back to thecallback of when you ask
somebody if they're thinkingabout suicide, for them to say,
be able to say yes and feel seen, that's great.
So for me to hear from anotherperson and that's what kind of
(48:29):
pulled me out of it is I heardfrom another person, wow, the
same thoughts that I was feelingand the same things I was, and
you're like, okay, I'm not alonein this.
And I thought, oh, I'm not,weird, it's not me, it's not
just me, other people deal withthis.
And that's the whole point ofthat sharing that lived
experience.
Thankfully, we want to kind ofnormalize the conversation
around it.
Absolutely, people can go, oh,oh, okay, that's not just me.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
Yeah, and these conversations may be hard to
have, but people need to hearthem.
I think we're going to have alot of people listening to this
and a lot of people are going toget help from it.
Speaking of help, can you tellour listeners where they can go
to find, I guess, afspcom?
Yep, there's 988, all of thosethings that's going to be in our
intro and outro, and thenspecifically for suicide
(49:15):
survivors.
So everything is on the AFSPcomwebsite.
Yeah, it's AFSPorg Dot org.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
I'm sorry, you're good, you're good and it's got.
I mean, I will say our websiteis a plethora of information, so
if you're a law survivor,there's tons of free resources
on that website.
A lot of times, our lostsurvivors will say something
that was super helpful to themis we have two minute clips of
all of our researchers and whatthey have specifically studied.
(49:43):
Yes, and that is fascinating tome.
I enjoy watching those, butit's also been helpful for our
lost survivors that are reallybattling with that statement of
why, yeah, so going throughthose and kind of seeing those,
that's all on the website.
Volunteering with AFSP is onthe website.
If you're not in Arkansasspecifically, we have chapters
all over the nation so you canlook to see which chapter and we
(50:06):
have events coming up this fallcalled the Out of the Darkness
Walk, so you can engage that.
Yeah, just in time, did thewalk?
Yeah, it was amazing.
So, yeah, afsp, engage that.
Yeah, just in time, did thewalk.
Yeah, it was amazing.
So, um, yeah, apsborg, but then988, 988 is really an important
tool for people to know aboutand it's private, right, so
right, and it's important too,and this is something I shared
with jessica when we first metum was that 988 is not just for
(50:29):
the person that's in crisis.
It's for someone who might betaking care of somebody in
crisis, or if you're worriedabout something.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Right, you can call 988.
Yes, I had a friend in OrangeCounty.
She calls me and she says, hey,my husband is suicidal, I don't
know what to do.
I was like, oh my gosh,jacqueline, what do I do?
And she's like get 988 on thephone.
I was like, so we three-way 988.
And I said, hey, this is myfriend, her husband has lethal
(50:57):
means.
Like, can you please help me?
I have so much anxiety rightnow.
I want to help my friend butlike I'm.
I'm like kind of frozen rightnow.
I need your help.
And they walked us.
They stayed on the phoneprobably for an hour and 45
minutes, walked us througheverything Actually, like found
her a number to call her husband, went down to the clinic, got
the help that he needed.
(51:18):
He's here with us today.
That was gonna make me cry.
Yeah, he's here with us today.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
So yeah, but those are the things that are for
people.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
Yeah here, yeah and the thing is like a suicide.
It affects every single person.
It's not just, you know, poorpeople, rich people, middle
class good looking people notgood looking people, like
whatever it's it's, it's, it'severy single person.
Like you know, people couldlook at somebody and go.
They look like they have it alltogether, they're doing totally
(51:51):
fine, like gosh, I wish I couldbe them, but you have no idea
what they're struggling with.
You have no idea.
So, like you know, it's.
It's something that can affecteveryone at some point in their
life.
So well, I think this wraps upour episode.
Thank you for having me on.
Oh, my gosh, I can't wait tohave you on again.
If you're struggling, rememberhow you think is how you feel.
(52:12):
If you're feeling still heavy,start by shifting the thought.
You're not stuck.
Your brain can change, so canyour story.
I'm Jessica G.
This is the Just In Timepodcast and I'll see you next
time.
Until then, keep going, nevergive up and remember the world
is better with you in it,whether you believe it or not.
To help reach others, pleaseshare this with your friends,
family, and don't forget to like, subscribe and donate.
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