October 16, 2025 • 56 mins
The happiest day isn’t always the happiest season, and saying that out loud can save a life. We sit down with AFSP area director Jacqueline Sharp to trace a clear line between baby blues and postpartum depression, talk frankly about suicidal thoughts after birth, and map the small, practical choices that turn the tide. No clichés, no shaming, just lived experience, credible guidance, and the kind of details you can use today.
We explore why postpartum struggles often stay hidden behind “you should be so happy,” how bonding challenges and perfectionism fuel shame, and what partners can do to truly help. From miscarriage and the quiet grief of trying to conceive, to hormonal freefalls, thyroid shifts, and the myth of “bounce back,” we bring nuance to a spectrum of maternal mental health experiences. We also get specific about support: setting boundaries with visitors, using an “eight minutes” code to ask for help, deciding between breastfeeding and formula without guilt, and building routines that reconnect you with your body and the world.
Medication and therapy are on the table, with a reminder to consult your OB‑GYN about safe options and dosing, and to seek a second opinion when needed. We share the numbers every family should save: 988 for immediate crisis and the National Maternal Mental Health Hotline at 1-833-9-HELP4MOMS (1-833-943-5746), available 24/7 in multiple languages. If you’re navigating postpartum depression, or love someone who might be, this conversation offers clarity, comfort, and a path forward. If it resonates, subscribe, share it with your village, and leave a review to help more parents find real support.
If you are in an crisis or feel unsafe, call or text 988 or dial 911 for immediate support. There are people out there who will listen and can help.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Jessica G, and this is the Justin Time
podcast.
If you're struggling today, Iwant you to know this podcast is
here for you, but it's not asubstitute for professional
health.
If you're in a crisis or feelunsafe, please call or text 988
or dial in 911 for immediatesupport.
There are people out there whowill listen and can help.
On this show, I'll be sharingpersonal experiences, mindset
(00:22):
ships, talking with key experts,and sharing real tools that help
me go from barely surviving tothriving.
This is not about quick fixes orone size fits all advice.
It's raw, it's honest, it's whatworked for me and what I believe
can help others too.
Let's walk together fromdarkness to hope.
(00:45):
Hello, hello, everybody.
Thank you for tuning back in.
This is Justin Time Podcast, andwe are excited that Jacqueline
Sharp has joined the show onceagain.
She's the area director forAFSP, and we are so happy to
have you here, Jacqueline.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00):
Thank you.
I'm happy to be here again.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01):
Awesome.
Today we're going to be talkingabout postpartum depression and
suicide, um, signs to look for,and really, um, I believe
Jacqueline is going to share alittle bit about her lived
experience and gonna talk aboutawareness, triggers, early
recognition, and um just diveright in.
SPEAKER_01 (01:22):
Yeah, I'm really grateful to be here.
This is um my passion project.
Uh, you know, when I startedwith AFSP four years ago, um, I
just was swimming.
And after the first year, I wasable to go, okay, now I can
start talking about my story andsharing my lived experience
around.
Yeah.
And the more I did, what Inoticed was we have more and
(01:46):
more women that would come up tome afterwards and say, same.
SPEAKER_02 (01:50):
Mm-hmm, same.
SPEAKER_01 (01:51):
I've just never talked about it out loud.
And so um, I'm grateful thatyou've asked me to come and have
this conversation because Ithink this is a a very silent
epidemic that's happening in theUnited States.
SPEAKER_02 (02:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
Um, and thankfully I'm seeing more and more people
are willing to talk about it andplatforms want people to come on
to talk.
So thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00 (02:12):
No, uh, I just remember when I first met you,
um, I knew nothing really aboutpostpartum.
It's just something you kind ofhear about, but like you said,
women don't talk about it.
And I remember you kind ofsharing, we were talking about
like, you know, my whole thingwas like neuroplasticity and
using the power ofneuroplasticity fight suicide.
And you're like, I want AFSB tobuild a program around
(02:33):
postpartum.
And um, so I got really excitedabout that because I mean,
mental health is complex andevery tiny little avenue or um
opening that you know we cantalk about to create change and
bring awareness and break thestigma and just start that
conversation is just one steptowards uh healing and one step
(02:57):
towards um better success.
Yeah.
I agree with our mental health.
So can you start off uh byexplaining what postpartum
depression is and how it differsfrom the baby blues that many
women experience?
SPEAKER_01 (03:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I I think it's important tosay too up front, um you're
gonna get dual sides in thisepisode of uh Jacqueline who has
lived experience in postpartum,and and I'm gonna share my
experience.
And that's mostly where myexpertise comes from in this.
Um for the last four years, I'vebeen advocating for AFSP to put
(03:34):
a more focused effort intomaternal mental health and
postpartum.
Um, and and we've seen somemovement for sure.
Um, we still don't havenecessarily a main presentation
uh I have pieces.
So that's good.
There's definitely been fourmovement, but a lot of the
statistics, the information I'mgonna be sharing is from the
(03:54):
Mayo Clinic, um, maternal mentalhealth, um, national maternal
mental health uh website andtheir lifeline.
That's what we'll talk abouttoday.
So that needs to be said.
So you're gonna have kind of thedual things, but awesome.
According to the Mayo Clinic,here are the differences.
So baby blues is something thatyou hear often.
And um, to be frank, um, when Iwas in the throes of postpartum
(04:20):
and in the throes of um reallystruggling with suicide, that's
what was said to me.
It's just baby blues.
Right.
And baby blues, here's thedifferences.
So baby blues are defined asit's only a few days to a week
after you've had a baby.
So it's a very short time frame.
(04:42):
And the symptoms include moodswings, anxiety, sadness,
irritability, feelingoverwhelmed, crying, reduced
concentration, you can haveappetite problems, and you can
have trouble sleeping.
And I when I wrote this up, Ikind of giggled because trouble
sleeping is just part ofpostpartum.
You have a brand new baby thatdoesn't know, you know, night
(05:04):
and day regulation.
They don't know sleep and theyhave to get up every two hours
to eat.
So trouble sleeping just kind ofcomes with that.
But um, so remember that babyblues are it's a short time
span.
And then what Mayo Clinic saysabout postpartum is it's more
intense, it lasts longer, itinterferes with your baby to
(05:24):
your ability to care foryourself and your baby.
Okay.
So those are, I think, the bigthings that need to be, and it
can last for up to a year aftergiving birth.
So that's important.
Um, the symptoms that they listare depressed mood or severe
mood swings, crying too much.
Um, I often hear when I talk towomen, they're like, I I
couldn't stop crying.
(05:45):
I was crying over everything.
Right.
And that's a really importantsign to pay attention to.
Um, bonding with baby issues.
So this is fascinating.
Um, when I started sharing aboutum my postpartum struggles, um,
I was in a training and I hadsomeone share with me that they
(06:06):
had found out through theirgrandmother that their own
mother had struggled.
And for the first like twomonths after they were born, she
could not hold her baby.
She was in bed and could nothold her baby for two months
because she had these bondingissues and was just in the
(06:27):
throes of postpartum depression.
Now, at the time, they didn'tknow what that was.
SPEAKER_00 (06:31):
Right.
Well, and I I just want to jumpin here really quick because
that brings something to mind.
Hearing that would, I feel like,bring on so much judgment from
the outside world.
And I think that that's probablyone of the reasons why people
don't talk about it.
Correct.
Because they're like, what'swrong with you?
(06:52):
You have a new baby, what youknow what I mean, instead of
treating it as a mental illnessat the time.
SPEAKER_01 (06:56):
Correct.
That's exactly right.
And I think that's why I thinkthat's why people why it's as I
called it a silent epidemic.
Right.
Is because, you know, suicide'sstigmatized enough.
And then when you add maternalmental health and suicide around
matern maternity and having ababy postpartum, there's like a
whole nother layer of stigma.
(07:18):
Right.
Because people are like, Well,you just you should be so happy.
This should be the happiestmoment of your whole life.
And that's what I heard in myown experience.
And then what I did was Iinternalized because I'm a
perfectionist.
And I internalized, and I uh thenext thing I had was, what is
wrong with me?
Right.
What's wrong with me?
And um, and so that's it, that'sdefinitely an important piece to
(07:40):
call out.
Yeah.
Because there's this doublelayer of stigma to it.
But the bonding with babyissues, it's very real.
It's a very real thing thatwomen can experience.
Withdrawing from friend familyand friends, and what you're
gonna hear with these signs isthis is a lot of the same stuff
we talk about in just suicideprevention within the community
as well.
(08:01):
Loss of appetite or you'reeating too much, inability to
sleep or sleeping too much.
Again, I giggled at that one.
Um, loss of energy where it'slike feels overwhelming, um
fatigue, intense irritability,uh, fear you aren't a good mom.
This was a hundred percentsomething that I experienced.
Hopelessness, shame, guilt,inadequacy, worthlessness.
(08:24):
That was a big and the shame andguilt.
That is, I think what keeps uhactive mothers that are in
postpartum that they're in thatroom from reaching out and
getting help.
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
Yeah, I could I could I could see that that
would be hard, especially if youthink about mother-in-laws and
all the people that are aroundyou after you give you birth.
I mean, I haven't, but I canjust imagine the pressure.
The pressure, you know, oh yeah,oh yeah, for sure.
And having a really good partneris would be key in in this and
(08:56):
making sure your partner is um,you know, um reading about
postpartum and educating theirselves because that's the person
that's probably gonna pull youout.
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (09:06):
And I think too, I think women just knowing if I
could go back and talk tomyself, I'd be much kinder to
the Jacqueline before I had myfirst child.
But I would also educate myself.
I think that's that's one of thesteps to help preventing it is
just education that it it is athing that can happen.
(09:27):
You can prepare all day long.
But until you get to that momentand you have that baby, you
actually don't know how yourbody's gonna respond.
And there's several factors thatplay into that.
Yeah.
But just having a generalawareness and knowledge of it, I
think is so critical.
And I did it.
I did it going into it.
I had no, I had this like la dida, it's gonna be perfect, you
(09:49):
know.
I even was like, here's my birthplan, and it's gonna go exactly
to, and it didn't at all.
SPEAKER_00 (09:58):
Can I ask you a really personal question?
Sure, please.
Did you struggle with thoughtsof suicide during your
postpartum?
I did.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
I did.
Um, and had you ever struggleduh previously?
SPEAKER_01 (10:10):
I never struggled with thoughts of suicide.
SPEAKER_00 (10:12):
I um So that was your first time, though.
So that's that's kind of that'simportant, I think, to it is
important to note make note offor people.
SPEAKER_01 (10:21):
I have a history of um anxiety and depression.
When I was 16, I went to myparents and said, I don't know
what's wrong, but something'swrong.
SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:31):
And I started therapy in medicine uh when I
was 16.
And so um I'm familiar withthose things.
Yeah.
Um, but not once did I think,oh, I probably should have this
conversation with because at thetime when I went in, I was not
on medicine.
Um, I had stopped takingmedicine.
And um, so there weren't anyconversations about that.
(10:54):
And that I'll get to more ofthat in my second pregnancy and
what I feel like was thedifference maker for me
personally.
But um, I wasn't on anything.
And so in my head, I was justlike, you know, I didn't even
think, hey, you have a historywith anxiety.
Right.
Maybe maybe you should bepreparing for what that looks
(11:15):
like in the post side of things.
SPEAKER_00 (11:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's really important.
And I think for even people, Imean, I could just talk about
myself here for a second.
It's like, you know, at a youngage, I struggle with thoughts of
suicide.
And okay, one day if I have akid and I'm going through
postpartum, you know, that'slike a big fear for me.
It's like, what's gonna happen?
Yeah.
And so I think for those thathave struggled, you know, with
(11:40):
those thoughts that uh payingattention, educating yourself,
um, talking to your doctor,talking to a therapist, seeing
what medications might be right,yes, could really help.
Yes.
Um I think, yeah, because that'sI mean, that is terrifying just
for me alone, you know, to thinkabout.
Um, what are your thoughts onmiscarriages and women that um
(12:05):
say they lose three months in,four months in, five months in?
Do you think the postpartum, thehormonal drop um is as extreme?
Or would you say like look forthe same signs?
Because I think that also goesunder like overlooked.
Oh, it absolutely does.
Because then people arestruggling with a loss, but then
(12:26):
they also have the hormonaldrop.
Correct.
And then there's like a wholeother guilt and weirdness around
that.
And I found that um women don'ttalk about it.
No, we don't talk about it atall.
I was so surprised.
I mean, I I work in a hairsalon.
Right.
And women talk about everything,right?
Like literally everything.
And I I had a miscarriage at thebeginning of the year, and I
(12:50):
even I found myself kind ofbeing quiet and I'm kind of like
very talkative and very openperson.
And but I I had started talkingabout it.
And what I found in my chair wasthat women wanted to talk about
it.
They like to talk about it, butum, it's there's not like a
space really for women to talkabout it.
And then and then then thedepression that that led to, you
(13:12):
know?
And correct.
I I've seen, you know, ups anddowns.
I had a lady come in the otherday.
She's like, okay, I want to cutbangs, I want to cut my hair
here, and I want to dye itblack.
And I was like, What's going on?
Like, are you okay?
Just pause and talk about yourlife.
Let's send it.
We need therapy.
Yeah.
And she had gone through amiscarriage.
Yeah.
(13:32):
And so I was like, okay, we'renot cutting your hair.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We're gonna later.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's like you're just noteven in your right mind.
And that was and it was an earlyloss for her too.
So it's like, yeah, mentalhealth is so complex.
SPEAKER_01 (13:46):
So I'll share with you, I had a miscarriage.
Yeah.
Um, but it was early in myhusband and I's marriage, we
were not trying.
And I think this is a a crucialthing to absolutely talk about
as part of this maternal mentalhealth spectrum.
Um it was heartbreaking, butalso it was one of those things
(14:09):
where I was grateful, whichsounds weird because we were in
a place where we we couldn'tafford to take care of a child.
There was no way.
There was no way.
Um, so I had this like guilt andshame and all the like stuff
that kind of goes with that.
And we're mourning loss, right?
Yeah.
Skip forward to okay, we'reready to start a family, so
(14:29):
we're gonna start trying.
Um I did not know that onaverage, it takes a woman about
a year and a half on average toget pregnant.
Wow.
Nobody tells you that.
No, nobody says that to you now.
When I have friends that arelike, I'm trying to get
(14:50):
pregnant, that's the first thingI'll say is start now.
You know, it takes about a yearand a half to get pregnant on
average.
Yeah.
And I think that's important forwomen to know because this was
my experience.
So it took us about a year forme to get pregnant with our son.
And um in that year, I would, wewould try, and then I would not
(15:17):
be pregnant and I would cry.
And then we try again and Iwouldn't be pregnant and I would
cry.
And I did that and back andforth and back and forth every
single month.
The same thing.
It got worse as you were goingas I was going through, because
I was like, oh my gosh, issomething wrong with me?
Is something wrong with him?
Like, it's this whole like quietthing that you're dealing with
(15:40):
of like, what's going on?
Mm-hmm.
Am I broken?
Right.
Had I known that it takes onaverage a year and a half, I'd
have been so much nicer tomyself.
SPEAKER_00 (15:53):
Yeah.
And it just goes back toeducating ourselves and correct,
reading and like the knowledgeis out there and just knowledge,
seeking and finding and notbeing afraid to reach out.
I mean, yes, these days you canask chat GPT anything.
SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
Oh, yeah.
That's true.
This is true.
I I will tell you, like, I thinkbeing willing to be the person
that opens up and says, this iswhat's going on.
That's helping to change thenarrative and opening it up
100%.
Um now, as far as do I thinkit's on the same level?
I think it's a spectrum, right?
(16:26):
And that's I often talk aboutpostpartum depression and how
women their bodies react afterhaving a baby.
It's all on a spectrum.
Everyone used to be.
You could have nothing.
Right.
It could be absolutely nothing.
Or it could be, you know, myexperience, or even where I've
(16:47):
seen worse, you know, where it'sit is a we are in a huge fight
and battle for our mind and ourbaby and our health and all of
those things.
Yeah.
Um, just like when you getpregnant, your symptoms that you
can have are on a spectrum.
Yeah.
You can have nothing, or you canbe like Amy Schumer, who was
this literally vomiting everyday for nine months.
(17:09):
You know, it could be all ofthose things.
So um, I think it's on aspectrum, and I think more
people need to talk aboutmiscarrying.
SPEAKER_00 (17:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was, I was really shocked.
I was like, gosh, I've beendoing hair for 20 years.
And like, I was like, nobodyever hardly would tell me.
I mean, here and there, butthey're like, oh yeah, I had
five.
I had 20.
Correct.
I'm like, what?
SPEAKER_01 (17:32):
That's certainly so common.
And that's when I talk about it,that's normal.
People are like, oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:37):
I had like five before we had something it makes
you feel like you're not alone.
There's nothing wrong.
And like, you know, I have areally great doctor right now,
and he was like, Look, it wasjust probably not a great egg.
You're healthy, there's nothing.
Correct.
Yeah, it's correct.
Yeah.
Like, you know, uh, life justhas a way of ridding itself, and
then you know, so somethinggreat can form, and something
(17:59):
more perfect, like the egg hasto be perfect, he said.
Correct.
And you know, so correct.
SPEAKER_01 (18:03):
And that's, you know, I will say this, and
there's a little levity in thisconversation.
Um just circle of life kind ofthing.
It did make me question how onenight stand babies happen.
Honestly.
SPEAKER_00 (18:15):
Like how?
But it's it is because if youlike actually think about it,
it's like very rare to cut ahair rare in the has to be here.
This has to be there in theline.
SPEAKER_01 (18:27):
You know?
Yeah.
So if you're a one-night standbaby, you are very rare in this
world.
Yes, you're a miracle child.
SPEAKER_00 (18:34):
It was just meant to be you're just meant to be here.
That's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
Yeah, that's funny.
Um, let's see.
Okay, let's talk about triggers.
What are some of the main riskfactors that might increase a
woman's likelihood of developingpostpartum depression?
SPEAKER_01 (18:51):
So, again, Mayo Clinic, not mine specific.
So, um, what the Mayo Clinic hadto say was that triggers can
often be genetics.
Oh, okay.
So there can be um some links tofamily history.
Uh, see, that's what scares methe most.
(19:13):
But now listen, and I'll saythis to you, but also anyone
else who's had lived experiencewith suicide.
We know in our our suicideresearch that even if you have
attempted previously, does thatdoes not mean that you are going
to die by suicide.
Right.
The other thing that needs to besaid is you are educating
(19:34):
yourself and those around you.
So the second you start feelingthose things, and even me,
uneducated me, I have a clearmoment in my head of the night
that I had suicidal thinking andI was like, okay, I'm gonna do
this, it's clear in my brain.
(19:56):
And I don't think I'll ever beable to remove the images, what
was happening, what I was doingfrom my head.
But even then, I remember havingthose thoughts and going, I'm
not okay.
Something is wrong.
SPEAKER_00 (20:14):
Cause in that moment you can't really access that
part of brain.
That's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
And that's why you needed time.
Correct.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
And so it was this days, weeks, I mean, of me kind
of reaching out for help, butnot really.
Like I was asking the people Iwas close to, have you ever
experienced this?
Like, what have you done?
Like trying to like gauge.
Yeah.
Is this me?
(20:43):
Yeah.
Am I am I the only one who feelsthis way?
And when I got back, it was kindof fascinating because it was a
mixture of it's baby plugs.
It's just baby plugs.
Everybody experiences babyblues.
Get outside, you know, do this,do that.
And I implemented some of thosestrategies.
And you're like, okay, helped.
(21:04):
Coping mechanisms.
Coping mechanisms.
That's exactly right.
Yeah.
But what actually helped me,there's something deeper going
on.
Correct.
What actually helped me, andthis, and this is she still to
this day, I don't think knowsthat she was my what really
caught me.
Um, it was about probably sixmonths after I gave him birth.
(21:24):
And I've been struggling forprobably all three months.
And um, we were at an event, andI I had my baby with me and my
husband, and my husband washolding a baby, and I was
standing next to a woman that Iserved on a board with for
another nonprofit.
And without saying anything, shesaid, you know, I hated the
(21:45):
newborn face.
And I whipped my head around sofast and I said, What did you
just say?
And she was an older woman, andand what I was getting from
older women was that rhetoric ofaren't you so happy?
Mm-hmm.
You have a baby, you should beso happy.
Right.
I would give anything to be backin that.
And I get that now.
I being out of it, I get that.
(22:06):
Yeah, yeah, I do.
But I said, I'm sorry, what didyou just say?
And she said, Oh, I hated thenewborn phase.
She was like, But after, youknow, seven, eight months, every
phase after was my favorite.
SPEAKER_00 (22:20):
Oh.
She was probably startstruggling with postpartum.
SPEAKER_01 (22:23):
And it was this moment of like, oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_00 (22:27):
I'm half postpartum depression.
SPEAKER_01 (22:29):
I'm not alone.
Yeah.
But other people experience thisbecause I hated the newborn
phase.
Wow.
What I didn't recognize then andwhat my my second pregnancy and
and what I did to help myself inthat second pregnancy was like,
I needed help.
SPEAKER_00 (22:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
I needed to have um for me, I needed to be on
medicine.
SPEAKER_00 (22:50):
Yeah, I think, yeah, I remember you telling me that
your your first pregnancy youdidn't didn't.
And then after so secondpregnancy, you started medicine
after delivery.
So I was on medicine before.
SPEAKER_01 (23:01):
And um, and actually PCP said, you gotta get off,
which is not true.
Talk to your OBGYN.
He'll tell you whether or notyou need to get off because it
just depends on dosage and whatyou're on.
Okay, that's important to sayhello.
These are all importantconversations to have with your
OBGYN.
But um, we were in post op and Isaid, Hey doc, I struggle with
(23:26):
postpartum and suicide.
Um, I'm worried for myself.
What can I do?
Was this um after you literallyafter I got out of the OR, I'm
in the post-op room, okay,holding my daughter.
And you and this is when you saythis is what I say to her.
Yes, because she comes in forlike the checkup.
SPEAKER_00 (23:48):
Because you're like, I don't want to go through
another seven months of hell.
I don't.
SPEAKER_01 (23:51):
Yeah.
And she said, Well, what dosageare you on?
I said, 25 milligrams.
And she said, Girl, that'slicking it.
And I laughed and I go, what?
And she laughed at herself andshe said, I'm sorry.
That dosage is about the same asif you took the pill and licked
it.
She said, Let's let's up yourdosage.
Okay.
And I said, Okay.
(24:11):
And we did.
And it makes me sad.
But it also I'm so gratefulbecause my postpartum, like my
time with my daughter was anight and day difference.
Because I had the courage to saythat to my OBGYN.
(24:33):
And because I was taking care ofmyself, I knew the things to
like okay when these thoughtsstart coming in my mind.
You know, I was crying all thetime within it.
I was I would look at him andcry and be like, I'm sorry, I
can't be a better mom to you.
Right.
I felt so much shame and guilt.
(24:54):
And I think some of it too is,you know, I brought in that I
had that perfectionist piece.
I'm a high achieving person.
Yeah.
That's just who I am.
And we have this campaign inAFSP and it's check on your
strong friends.
And this is, I think, one of thethings that with maternal mental
health is so critical.
SPEAKER_02 (25:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:13):
And I think oftentimes when women are these
strong, powerful get stuff donewomen, we think they're fine.
And when they say they're fine,which is what I was doing, I'm
fine, I'm fine.
Everything's fine.
I'm fine.
SPEAKER_00 (25:29):
Everything's fine.
SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
We take that for what it is.
And we don't yeah, we don't tryto examine further.
Um and so for me, uh looking atthe differences, it was such a
stark contrast between my son's,you know, post and my
daughter's.
I was I enjoy the newborn phasewith her.
(25:52):
And so I think um those arecritical things to kind of pay
attention to, genetics, all ofthose things.
Um, other triggers and otherthings that can cause.
Yes.
So physical changes.
So, you know, that was one thingalso that I don't know why.
It took me it took me a year anda half to feel like I was in my
(26:16):
body again.
Really?
So there's this weirdexperience.
SPEAKER_00 (26:20):
I hear everybody say that.
I mean I hear everybody saythat.
It's so scary.
I'm like, oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_01 (26:25):
It's this weird experience you have where you go
like your body's not your own.
Your body's not your own, right?
Um, and that's because your bodyis physically giving so much to
this baby, to the creation ofthis baby, to the building of
its foundation that it needs,right?
And you give birth to this baby,and there's a huge drop in
(26:49):
hormones, right?
Testosterone and progestion.
So had I known that, Idefinitely think I would have
given myself more grace of like,oh my gosh.
Yeah, girl, you took nine monthsto create this baby.
And you thought you were gonnabe back to normal in two.
Yeah.
(27:10):
That's why that bounce back.
SPEAKER_00 (27:12):
Oh, I hate that word.
SPEAKER_01 (27:13):
I hate that term.
It's literally horrible.
Oh, you'll bounce back.
And I'm like, when you get ridof it.
SPEAKER_00 (27:17):
Oh my gosh, I hate that word.
I think it's like, I think Iheard my grandparents say it and
my mom say it, and it was like aword from their era.
Yes, it's and I'm like, I noteverybody, you know, can just do
that like you did.
Correct.
Like everyone has their ownjourney, correct.
SPEAKER_01 (27:33):
And and bodies are built differently, and all those
things, it's not fair.
It's a very not fair term towomen, um, especially postpartum
women.
And um, but you have this thisnine months of creating life,
and we I put it in my head, atleast with my son, that I bounce
back immediately.
SPEAKER_00 (27:54):
Because it puts like this pressure on you.
And if you don't bounce back,there's something wrong with
your wrong with you.
So you're dealing with what'swrong with me that I can't stop
crying?
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
What's wrong with me that I'm not happy because I've
just had this baby?
What's wrong with me that I'mnot rail thin?
Right.
Right?
Exactly.
Um, and I also struggle withbreastfeeding, which can also
add more guilt.
It was so much guilt of like, ohmy gosh, I can't do this.
I mean, I remember, which we canwe'll talk about this a little
bit more about, you know, whatare some of the gaps in care
(28:26):
here?
And there are gaps in our care,110%.
Yeah.
I remember being in thepediatrician's office and being
like, they had a a breastconsultant come in and a
breastfeeding consultant come inand talk to me about
breastfeeding.
And she, she, you know, tryingto breastfeed my son.
Yeah.
And he is, he just grab takesboth hands, grabs my boob, and
(28:47):
just shoves it.
He's like, No.
I laughed so hard that myhusband came around the corner
and he goes, What is wrong?
And I said, What am I doing?
Yeah.
Why am I forcing this so hard?
Yeah.
It's clearly not working for us.
Why am I doing this to myself?
(29:09):
And we started formula.
Yeah.
I was a formula baby and it wasgiving me huge.
Yeah.
I mean, it was it was a nine-daydifference.
And that, you know, that'ssomething that our pediatrician
now has said.
And and again, in my second, inmy second delivery, um, he said,
Did you breastfeed the firsttime?
I breastfed for six weeks thefirst time because I forced
(29:30):
myself.
Okay, okay.
Forced it.
Forced it.
Because I was pumping.
Also.
Yeah.
To try to make it work.
And the contraptions that thehospital put me on was wild.
When I tell people what they hadus do when we left, a lot of
people are like, why, why, whywould you do that?
And I was like, because Ithought that's what was the best
(29:52):
thing.
And it had to be that.
You know, it had to be that.
SPEAKER_00 (29:55):
Everything that I read right now about like
pregnancy and like even likebirth positions, like, oh yeah.
I hear like laying on your backis one of the worst positions.
And there's like, don't rub thevernix off.
Right.
Right.
Wait till the umbilical cordturns white.
And so the baby can get all theblood.
And then let your husband cutit.
And then, like, what else isthere?
(30:16):
Oh, the vaccines.
Like, the baby isn't evenhepatized.
I'm like, right, I'm likebombarded with so much
information, you know, aboutpregnancy and giving birth and
all this.
And it's like, I can see wherethere's so much pressure and
like pull.
And I feel like at the end ofthe day, you just kind of have
to educate yourself oneverything, like literally
(30:38):
everything.
And then you and your partnerjust make the best decision that
you think is possible and youjust roll with it.
You roll with it, right?
Exactly right.
Yeah.
I mean, we even Because mygoodness, you can't make, you
know, everyone's gonna disagreewith something.
SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
Correct, correct.
So it's yeah.
And I think that's what it'sthat's that other level of guilt
that comes in with postpartumand just like that kind of
there's there's so much that youhave to figure out.
There's also you don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (31:03):
Yeah.
And then like I know um some ofyou know, um, pregnant women
that I know, their husbands arelike, so like you need a
breastfeed, you need abreastfeed.
This is the best for the baby,this is best for the baby.
And there's like a certainamount of pressure that even the
husbands are putting on thewives, and it's like they need
to go to baby school, parenting,correct, like educate
(31:25):
everything, mental health, likeso it's like all inclusive.
Yeah, because it's not justabout, you know, formula or not
formula, or you know, so I feelI feel like there's a lot of
that out there too.
SPEAKER_01 (31:38):
There is a lot of that out there, and that can add
a lot of unnecessary pressurebecause again, you don't know.
I mean, I've had friends thatare like cows, they produce,
it's insane.
Yeah, they're jealous of it,it's incredible.
Selling their milk online ordonating.
It's incredible, yeah.
And then there are like peoplelike me where if I got four
(31:59):
milliliters, I was crying.
SPEAKER_00 (32:01):
I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing, you know,
like it it's and it's all ofthose things, and that just it's
like a balance of like takingcare of yourself, it sounds like
yeah, and then also your baby.
Yep, yep.
SPEAKER_01 (32:13):
Oh, it's all those, all those mix of things, and
then um thyroid hormones droptoo, which can lead to like that
sluggish feeling that you feel.
Yeah.
Um, I had so I had a birth plan,I think I mentioned this, and um
was convinced that it was gonnago exactly like that.
Um, it did not.
(32:35):
So um I went in and um theyinduced me.
Um, it was a Monday morning at 5a.m.
And um I did not have our sonuntil um that Thursday morning.
Oh my gosh.
At 12.
Oh wow.
(32:55):
So I labored for three days.
Oh my gosh.
And part of that was because mybody wasn't ready.
Okay, right?
So um that was a big portion ofit.
And and at the time I had anOBGYN that came in, she was
hilarious.
I loved her.
Um, and she she just said, youknow, I don't know why we
(33:18):
induced you, we should not havedone this.
And she wasn't my normal OBGYN.
And she said, but you know,we're gonna keep trying, we're
gonna keep trying.
And I got to a point, my um myheartbeat dropped, my son's
heartbeat dropped, and I wasright at nine centimeters, and
the teen came in and she justlooked at me and she said, It's
(33:42):
not gonna happen.
I need I need to take this baby.
We need to go to the OR.
And um So C-section.
So C-section.
And you know, again, I my planwas this is how it's gonna go.
Yeah.
I didn't even read aboutC-section, like truly educate
myself.
Right, you're like, I don't wantto.
(34:05):
That's not even a thought in mybrain.
Maybe it's because you didn't.
I don't know.
It looks pretty scary to me.
I whip my head around and I'mI'll probably cry.
But I whip my head around and Ilooked at my husband and I said,
I can't do this.
And he said, You can do this.
And all three of us are comingout of this hospital.
(34:26):
And I said, Okay.
And the minute we were like,Okay, it was it probably took
five minutes for us to get tothe OR.
Um they pulled the baby out.
Of course, my husband, y'all,he's the the funniest, most
amazing man, but he did not wantto see any part of the C
(34:47):
section.
And he's tall, so he's likecrouching down next to me.
And and the OBGYN, she justshe's the excellent surgeon, and
just she was like, Oh my gosh,he has red hair.
Do you want to see?
And my husband's like, nope,that's fine, it's fine.
We'll see in a minute, you know.
And um, and then we were in thehospital for about a week.
(35:10):
We didn't leave until that waslike I say a week.
We didn't leave until Fridayafternoon.
Um it so it was a lot, it was alot.
And you know, we had them anearly in the morning, and they
get you up every two hours tofeed and to like, so we our
clocks were all off.
And you know, I had just beenthrough a major surgery surgery.
(35:34):
Yeah.
That's the other thing that Ithink it just gets passed over,
is the rhetoric of C-section'san easy way out.
Absolutely not, right?
None of them are easy ways out,right?
SPEAKER_00 (35:47):
Right, yeah, I know it seems more intense
transaction to me that hashappened.
SPEAKER_01 (35:52):
I said I don't have experience in this, but it seems
a lot more intense.
It's more intense, and you'vegot now you are recovering from
a surgery and birth.
And birth, and now we have ababy, and you can only pick up
so many pounds.
Correct.
Yeah, correct.
Yep.
If you have surgery, youactually cannot pick up, you're
not supposed to pick up thecare.
(36:13):
Um so um, yeah, I think all thatkind of plays into it as well.
SPEAKER_00 (36:18):
And do you think they push C-sections in a lot
more now?
I I I I asked that questionbecause like I have this overall
general feeling.
I have no evidence or anythinglike that, other than just like
things that I hear.
Um so I have no um statisticalbackground of this information.
SPEAKER_01 (36:40):
That needs to be said out loud.
So people please fact check meand you can look this up
yourself.
But um, I do think at one pointI heard that Northwest Arkansas
has a very high rate ofC-sections.
SPEAKER_00 (36:52):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (36:52):
A very, very high rate of the same.
SPEAKER_00 (36:53):
I have a feeling that, yeah, we'll have to push
fact-check that.
SPEAKER_01 (36:57):
Pushing you, I don't know because and I say this to
people all the time.
Um, you know, I grew up as adaughter of a physician who was
trained.
That just because a physician issaying that does not mean that
that's the end all be all.
Right.
It's your body, you know yourbody.
And so when I went to my secondone, I was like, I'm gonna do V
(37:18):
back.
Yeah, I'm gonna do it.
And my doctor and I came to thatagreement.
We were like, okay, great, let'sdo VBAC, it's gonna happen.
But then in emergencysituations, just you had that's
what you had to do.
Well, so but my second one, wegot closer to time and my OEGY
and said, Hey, you're notdilated.
(37:39):
You should be.
We should already see be seeingit.
In fact, you're negative, whichI don't even know what that
means.
To this day, I still don't knowwhat that means.
That I did I just was I justlike sucking it back up.
I don't know what's happening,but it's not happening.
I'm not coming out today.
I I like to joke that I made toogood of a home for my lobbies,
but um, but he said, listen, wecan try.
(38:04):
Mm-hmm.
Or you can move your date up.
And we'll because they they puta C section date out for me.
But I was like, be back, it'shappening.
Did you deliver at 40 weeks?
I delivered at 39 weeks, Ithink, with her.
I was right at.
And um, I was in the OR becausewe went ahead and moved it up.
I was in the OR and I waspissed.
(38:26):
Sitting in the OR, prepped,ready to go.
I was like, I was gonna be back.
And they get her out.
And my OBGYN said, Oh my gosh.
And I was like, Of course,that's what you want to hear
when you're on an OR likethey're they're doing surgery on
you.
She goes, You're like, What?
What what?
So glad we did the C-section.
(38:46):
Why?
My daughter had wrapped herumbilical cord around her neck
twice.
Oh my gosh.
And she had pretzeled, literallypretzeled the umbilical cord,
and my OGYN pulls it up and shegoes, I've only seen this twice
in my 20 years of doing this.
Wow.
And so it was one of thosemoments of like, okay, well, I
(39:07):
was supposed to do this.
Yeah.
But this is what we weresupposed to be.
Yeah.
And she's safe and she'shealthy, and I'm safe and
healthy, and all the things.
So I say all those things,tassage those fears.
Yeah.
Now, can I speak to is it push?
I think that's relevant to you.
Yeah.
What do you want?
(39:28):
Communicate that.
Yeah.
And then also be willing to oneeducate yourself, be better than
me, educate yourself onC-section, but also know that
like your plan, yes, that'sgreat.
That's but it can change.
But it can change.
Yeah.
For the health of you and thehealth of the baby.
SPEAKER_00 (39:42):
Yeah.
Actually, um, one of my friends,uh, she kind of told me a very
similar story.
She had her whole birth plan.
Yeah, it's how she thought itwas gonna go.
And she's like, Well, I guessGod had different plans for me.
And she's got a beautiful,healthy boy.
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah.
Those are good things.
Um, let's see, what else?
Um, hope and recovery.
For women listening who might besilently struggling right now,
(40:04):
what would you want them toknow?
SPEAKER_01 (40:08):
So um I think an important thing for women
listening who are in the throesof this is you're not alone.
In fact, there are probably morewomen in your life that have
struggled with this than youhave any.
SPEAKER_00 (40:25):
And reach out and talk to them.
Yeah, oh, a hundred percent.
Tell somebody start talking topeople, talk to your doctor.
SPEAKER_01 (40:31):
Start talking.
If you are a high achiever or aperfectionist like me, it is
okay to say and be vulnerable, Idon't think I'm doing okay.
Yeah.
It truly is okay to say that.
And I it it it's a strength, youknow, it's a strength.
100% it's a strength.
SPEAKER_00 (40:49):
And I think that it's even more important in
these moments because you're notonly caring for yourself, but
you're caring for, you know, umcorrect, a baby baby.
SPEAKER_01 (40:59):
This brand new baby, this brand new and it's a whole
new life.
I think give yourself the space.
SPEAKER_00 (41:04):
Let the shame go.
Yes, let's let the guilt go.
Yeah.
Just say screw it.
Yes.
Be afraid to for themother-in-law to judge you.
Right.
Like that's another thing.
Whatever.
Because I feel like the wholemother-in-law pressure is
probably.
I hear this through, you know,working in a salon when we talk.
Yes, yes.
I hear that.
Well, my mother-in-law or mymother, my own mother, you know,
(41:27):
that everyone has these, allthese ideas of how you should
be, but who's actually listeningto you?
Correct.
And what you need.
And it's like sometimes it'slike your voice just gets it, it
sounds like their voice justgets muffled.
Yes.
And I think that for mothers,mother-in-laws, everybody out
there, like to kind of keep thatin mind.
And like, what's the one thing Ihear is like when you first get
(41:48):
to the hospital, don't go seethe baby right away.
Like see the mom first and say,Hey, how are you doing?
You know, like that's that's thebest etiquette that you can have
after because everyone justwants to see the baby, but then
like the mom's like just there.
SPEAKER_01 (42:01):
Right.
You know?
Yeah, correct.
Which nowadays the baby is inthe room with you all the time.
So is it?
Oh yeah.
Oh, good.
There's no thing.
Oh yeah.
And there's no going into ayou're not gonna get mixed up in
the nursery.
Now, unless you have unless youhave like an a a situation where
we need to go right like theNikki or whatever.
Yeah.
But um, no, I think, and I thinktalking about it, I think on the
(42:24):
mother-in-law side, this iswhere the partner comes into
play significantly.
And if you don't have a partner,um, if you're a badass having a
baby on your own, kudos to you.
But also having a friend or sometype of support that can be
your, I guess, gate is the bestway.
SPEAKER_00 (42:48):
What was it, the thing that you said?
Do you have eight minutes?
Or seven minutes?
Yeah, what do you have eightminutes?
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (42:54):
That can be your person.
SPEAKER_00 (42:55):
Or you can say, or the person can say, Do you need
eight minutes?
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (42:59):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (42:59):
Do you have eight minutes or do you need eight
minutes?
SPEAKER_01 (43:01):
Eight minutes.
Yeah, that's good.
Yeah.
But and that comes from a umcampaign we did of like just
really setting up those systemsthat if you're struggling to be
able to say, Hey, do you haveeight minutes?
Kind of a code word for like,I'm struggling with suicide.
Yeah.
And say out loud, like, I'm not,I'm not okay.
Right.
Right.
Right.
So no, but I think the partneror the friend that can help
(43:24):
gatekeep you and the baby.
What I mean by that is ifmother-in-law is not respecting
boundaries, this is where thepartner comes into play.
Right.
And needs to play that role.
Yep.
Has to play that role.
SPEAKER_00 (43:38):
Yeah, like ask the mother first if it's okay for
somebody to come into the room.
Correct.
Is what I was reading about thislast night, turned to prep for
this.
But it was like the mother is ina very vulnerable place.
She's healing.
Right.
Um, she just went through likethe biggest hardest thing she'll
ever go through.
Her body has been pushed to thelimits.
(43:59):
And so making sure that thatevery single person that enters
that room, it's you, you'veyou've asked.
Yeah.
Are you ready?
Is it okay?
And if and like, don't put anypressure, don't push, and just
be super respectful for is whatI've read.
SPEAKER_01 (44:13):
Yeah.
And that's I wrote in here taketake lead from mom.
Yeah.
Right.
And and and what I wouldencourage women who maybe aren't
in postpartum but are pregnantand expecting is start
communicating what you wantduring postpartum.
SPEAKER_00 (44:28):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (44:28):
Clearly.
Way before.
Way before.
These are gonna be theboundaries, these are gonna be,
you know, a lot of times becausethat could give somebody a lot
of anxiety if those thingsaren't in place.
SPEAKER_00 (44:39):
Like I think I would freak out.
Yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (44:42):
I didn't have um necessarily mother-in-law, dance
mom passed, and I didn't have amother-in-law that, you know,
came over, but um, you know, wewere very clear.
We this is you're welcome tocome and visit, please Alice,
you know, you know, all thesethings.
Yeah.
And then, you know, I had peoplethat were like, we want to do a
meal train for you.
So you kind of have to decidethose things too, but just
(45:04):
communicate that clearly inadvance would be my my uh two
cents on that.
Um, but that's where partnercomes into play, where we can
kind of help gatekeep baby andmom just because this is a
really sensitive time of you'rerecovering, there's all these,
it's all newness.
Also, you know, you'rebreastfeeding on demand.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:24):
And I think some cultures like do this 40-day
thing.
SPEAKER_01 (45:28):
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Some cultures do 40 days of justthem and then there's a really
great book, and I cannot thinkof it right now, that I read um
when I was expecting our son.
And it starts up, it's writtenby a British woman.
It's very good.
But I giggled at her and nowbeing out of sight of all of it,
(45:48):
and I actually did it.
Um, but she talks about walkinginto your home and walking your
baby around and showing them thehouse like you would uh a new
guest.
Oh my gosh, it's so she waslike, I just laugh, I remember
laughing, reading that becausewhen I was pregnant, because I
was like, but I did it.
I did it with the I just walkedhim around and I was like, this
(46:09):
is the dining room and this isthe and it just was one of those
things where it's like this isour moment to like we're
building this life with him.
Yeah, you know, so um definitelydo boundaries.
I I think if anyone's listeningand they're in the throes at
this, the other really importantthing for you to know is, and a
lot of people don't know this,there's actually a national
(46:30):
maternal mental health hotline.
It is 24-7, it's over 250languages, and it is designed
for um anybody that isstruggling with anything around
postpartum.
You're pregnant, you know, thereare some women that struggle
with depression and suicidewhile they're pregnant.
(46:51):
Any of that breastfeeding.
What is this hotline?
So it's 1-800 TLC mama, t 1-800TLC mama, and I did the lifting,
so it's 1-800-852-6262.
SPEAKER_00 (47:07):
Okay, and let me ask you a question.
If somebody can't remember thatin the moment, um, can they call
998-988 and get this number?
They can get the six they'llconnect them with that number.
Yep, yep, yep.
Okay, perfect.
So 988 is so easy to remember.
SPEAKER_01 (47:20):
And then if you want to repeat that one more time to
our listeners, 1-800-TLC Mama.
And it's great.
And and and if you're a partneror friend listening, go ahead
and take that down.
SPEAKER_00 (47:32):
Put it in your phone.
If you're seeing signs ofpostpartum and you're worried,
call that number and they canhelp walk you through what to
do, what the signs are, and likerefresh your memory.
Cause I mean, even myself beingeducated, when somebody comes up
and says, Hey, I'm struggling,I'm like, okay, what are the
steps?
Da da da.
And sometimes you get in likethis, you know, fright mode, and
(47:54):
you're like, I want to doeverything right.
And it's so nice to just havethat number to call, be like,
hold on one second, and it cankind of like calmly like walk
you through it.
Yeah, you know?
Yeah.
Cause like we all go throughthings, but we want to make sure
that we're um, you know, doingour best to help other people
that actually do reach outbecause you may be the only
person, you may be the onlyperson that um they reach out
(48:16):
to.
100%.
You may be their only lifeline.
A hundred percent.
So and and and knowing what todo and calling those numbers, I
think, is can be life or deathsometimes for people for just
never know.
SPEAKER_01 (48:27):
For sure.
And I'll add to like in my firstpregnancy, some of the things
that helped me um kind of getout of the hole.
Yeah.
Um, is I I akin it to when weshut down completely for the
COVID pandemic and everyone wasisolated and it was it was hard
(48:47):
because we as human beings, weneed connection, right?
Yeah.
So um, you're kind of goingthrough the same thing when
you're in postpartum.
It's very isolating.
It's all the like kind of riskfactors that we talk about that
can kind of combine to createthis perfect storm.
And so I started going, uh, Iwould I made myself a schedule.
(49:09):
I'm such a type A personalitythat I made myself a schedule
every day and it made me lookforward to the same thing.
And I matched it with my son'ssleep schedule.
So we got up in the morning, wewent for a walk.
I got outside.
I wasn't doing that.
You know, when I first got home,I was just kind of in the habit.
SPEAKER_00 (49:29):
Force yourself to get out.
I was just here.
SPEAKER_01 (49:31):
But I was like, we got we gotta get out and go.
Yeah.
Um, I started forcing myself touh plan moments throughout the
week where I would go to Targetor I would go get lunch with
somebody, or I would, and itfelt daunting because you pack
all the things, there's a lot ofstuff there with tapies that you
(49:53):
had to carry.
And I was, you know, early on Iwas like, why would I do that to
myself?
But I started forcing myselfbecause I just realized I needed
a moment to just interact, lookat something else, you know,
engage with the world around me.
And so I started putting thosethings on my calendar, which was
so helpful for my brain to belike, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (50:16):
And I feel like something that comes to mind
too.
Um if you can't get to thatpoint even, yes, invite somebody
over and have coffee, have tea,and maybe have them help you get
out of the house and pack thatbag and go on that walk.
Or just like phone a friend andbe like, look, I need you to
come over once a week and justhelp me take this next step
(50:39):
because I don't want to fall inthis hole.
Yep.
Making like a pact like thatwith somebody could make a huge
difference.
Huge difference.
Because like what you're seeingis great and and I think it
shows a lot of strength that youcould do that.
But I know like when I wasreally struggling, like I I
didn't even have the strength tobarely like let my dog out the
door.
Right.
(50:59):
You know?
So it's like I feel it justreminded me of like, I probably
should have invited somebodyover to my house, but I was
still embarrassed in thatmoment.
Right.
I was like, my house is a mess.
This is, but I think just likegetting over the fear of
reaching out and just think,okay, I need help.
So come over and help me.
Yes, yes.
And just a trusted friend.
(51:19):
Yes.
Or someone.
SPEAKER_01 (51:21):
I think you bring up a really good point.
So um I have this thing that Ido.
I've done it, I learned it fromsomebody, so it's not original.
Um, but I do this thing calledpick three for lunch.
So, or dinner, if I'm going tocoffee with somebody, I'm like,
pick three places and then I'llpick one.
Okay.
But my concept here is let'sflip that.
(51:41):
Pick one.
So you're going to send to yourfriend, if you are a friend or a
mother-in-law, or um, you know,a church member or neighbor, and
you want to help your um personwho's just had a baby, send them
three options of what you couldor want to do uh-huh and let
(52:04):
them pick one.
I think what happens is we wantto help women that are in these
periods of time, but we go, tellme what you need.
And they you they don't knowwhat they need.
I don't know what I need.
Yeah.
I have no idea.
SPEAKER_00 (52:16):
We need somebody to just tell us what to do.
I need some.
SPEAKER_01 (52:19):
Or do some laundry.
I need somebody to do, you know,it's like it's it's all these
things.
Yeah.
Um, and make them like thosethings that you offer.
SPEAKER_00 (52:27):
Make them I think that's I think that's key too,
is that sometimes people justdon't have enough help.
Correct.
Enough community.
Correct.
Enough, you know, women or otherwomen around them to to help.
I think um, you know, they sayit takes a village, but I think
there's something to that.
So I think, you know, just notbeing afraid to reach out,
(52:49):
trying to build a community ofwomen around you, or, you know,
um, maybe calling the hotlineand saying, hey, is there like a
local group?
SPEAKER_02 (52:58):
Support groups.
SPEAKER_00 (52:59):
Support groups that I could connect with because
like I'm really struggling.
Something, just something.
SPEAKER_01 (53:05):
Yeah, something is huge.
I think for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (53:07):
Yeah.
For sure, for sure.
Well, I do you have anythingelse that you want to share with
our listeners?
SPEAKER_01 (53:13):
Trying to think if there's anything else.
Um know that with appropriatetreatment, yeah, percent of
women who struggle withpostpartum um recover.
SPEAKER_00 (53:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:27):
So that's a really important thing to hear now.
SPEAKER_00 (53:29):
And you said too, like for you, it was like the
first seven months, especially,and then you were able to dial
it back down.
I think like letting go of thatfear, is this medication gonna
affect the baby?
Is it gonna affect me?
Is it gonna did you takemedication while you were
pregnant?
SPEAKER_01 (53:42):
I did, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (53:43):
Okay, and it was and your doctors are like, it's a
safe, it's okay, all the things.
And I think that there's astigma around taking medication
also while you're pregnant.
SPEAKER_01 (53:50):
There is.
SPEAKER_00 (53:51):
Um, and so I think there's confusion.
SPEAKER_01 (53:53):
And there's a lot of confusion, right?
You need to have a conversationwith the OBGYN.
SPEAKER_00 (54:01):
You're like, wait, can I take a Tylenol?
SPEAKER_01 (54:03):
Yeah, when I when I talk to you by OBGYN, she was
like, No, no, you're fine.
That's fine.
You're fine.
SPEAKER_00 (54:08):
Yeah.
So I mean, I think that's well,and I think also to your point
though, some people saydifferent things.
They do.
You know, I have I have heardthat.
Um one of my clients, she hadone doctor said one thing,
another doctor said the otherthing.
And so I think it's reallyfinding the right doctor for
you, making sure you connectwith that person, um, and doing
(54:31):
your research and for sure, notbeing afraid to ask all of the
questions.
Like even if you think they'restupid, yeah, ask, ask, ask.
Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (54:39):
And I would, I think the last two things to end on I
think would be important to sayis if you are someone who's
already gone through postpartumand you had postpartum
depression, um, don't be afraidto share it, but also share it
in a way where we're talkingabout it as a spectrum.
(55:00):
Right.
We're not all gonna experiencethe same thing.
But because you did experienceit, letting somebody know that
I'm a safe person to have thisconversation with.
I'm willing to share mine.
So if you need to share yours,please come to me.
Yeah.
I mean, I had I I startedtalking about it openly and
(55:21):
talking about being on medicineopenly.
And I actually had a closefriend come to me and talk to
me, like, hey, I think I need todo this.
Yeah.
And we had that conversation.
And it was all because I waswilling to share it, but share
it on a spectrum perspective.
SPEAKER_00 (55:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (55:36):
This may not be how you experience it, but it was
how I did.
SPEAKER_00 (55:39):
Yeah.
And again, like even just on theshow, it's like we're not here
to, you know, we're not keyexperts and doctors and all of
these things.
We're here to share livedexperience.
Right.
What worked for us may not workfor you, you know.
So it's like always talk to yourhealthcare provider, but we're
here to help break the stigmasand just start that conversation
and um educate people on what wedo know for sure around suicide.
(56:03):
So thank you so much for beinghere, Jaclyn.
I appreciate you.
It's been, it's been the best.
Um, and for those of youlistening, I hope that this
helps.
If you know somebody that'sstruggling, send them this uh
podcast and tell them we'll seeyou next time.
If you're struggling, rememberhow you think is how you feel.
If your feelings feel heavy,start by shifting the thought.
(56:23):
You're not stuck, your brain canchange, so can your story.
I'm Jessica G.
This is the Justin Time Podcast,and I'll see you next time.
Until then, keep going.
Never give up.
And remember, the world isbetter with you in it, whether
you believe it or not.
To help reach others, pleaseshare this with your friends,
family, and don't forget tolike, subscribe, and donate.
Hi, I'm Jessica G, and this is the Justin Time
podcast.
If you're struggling today, Iwant you to know this podcast is
here for you, but it's not asubstitute for professional
health.
If you're in a crisis or feelunsafe, please call or text 988
or dial in 911 for immediatesupport.
There are people out there whowill listen and can help.
On this show, I'll be sharingpersonal experiences, mindset
(00:22):
ships, talking with key experts,and sharing real tools that help
me go from barely surviving tothriving.
This is not about quick fixes orone size fits all advice.
It's raw, it's honest, it's whatworked for me and what I believe
can help others too.
Let's walk together fromdarkness to hope.
(00:45):
Hello, hello, everybody.
Thank you for tuning back in.
This is Justin Time Podcast, andwe are excited that Jacqueline
Sharp has joined the show onceagain.
She's the area director forAFSP, and we are so happy to
have you here, Jacqueline.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00):
Thank you.
I'm happy to be here again.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01):
Awesome.
Today we're going to be talkingabout postpartum depression and
suicide, um, signs to look for,and really, um, I believe
Jacqueline is going to share alittle bit about her lived
experience and gonna talk aboutawareness, triggers, early
recognition, and um just diveright in.
SPEAKER_01 (01:22):
Yeah, I'm really grateful to be here.
This is um my passion project.
Uh, you know, when I startedwith AFSP four years ago, um, I
just was swimming.
And after the first year, I wasable to go, okay, now I can
start talking about my story andsharing my lived experience
around.
Yeah.
And the more I did, what Inoticed was we have more and
(01:46):
more women that would come up tome afterwards and say, same.
SPEAKER_02 (01:50):
Mm-hmm, same.
SPEAKER_01 (01:51):
I've just never talked about it out loud.
And so um, I'm grateful thatyou've asked me to come and have
this conversation because Ithink this is a a very silent
epidemic that's happening in theUnited States.
SPEAKER_02 (02:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
Um, and thankfully I'm seeing more and more people
are willing to talk about it andplatforms want people to come on
to talk.
So thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00 (02:12):
No, uh, I just remember when I first met you,
um, I knew nothing really aboutpostpartum.
It's just something you kind ofhear about, but like you said,
women don't talk about it.
And I remember you kind ofsharing, we were talking about
like, you know, my whole thingwas like neuroplasticity and
using the power ofneuroplasticity fight suicide.
And you're like, I want AFSB tobuild a program around
(02:33):
postpartum.
And um, so I got really excitedabout that because I mean,
mental health is complex andevery tiny little avenue or um
opening that you know we cantalk about to create change and
bring awareness and break thestigma and just start that
conversation is just one steptowards uh healing and one step
(02:57):
towards um better success.
Yeah.
I agree with our mental health.
So can you start off uh byexplaining what postpartum
depression is and how it differsfrom the baby blues that many
women experience?
SPEAKER_01 (03:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I I think it's important tosay too up front, um you're
gonna get dual sides in thisepisode of uh Jacqueline who has
lived experience in postpartum,and and I'm gonna share my
experience.
And that's mostly where myexpertise comes from in this.
Um for the last four years, I'vebeen advocating for AFSP to put
(03:34):
a more focused effort intomaternal mental health and
postpartum.
Um, and and we've seen somemovement for sure.
Um, we still don't havenecessarily a main presentation
uh I have pieces.
So that's good.
There's definitely been fourmovement, but a lot of the
statistics, the information I'mgonna be sharing is from the
(03:54):
Mayo Clinic, um, maternal mentalhealth, um, national maternal
mental health uh website andtheir lifeline.
That's what we'll talk abouttoday.
So that needs to be said.
So you're gonna have kind of thedual things, but awesome.
According to the Mayo Clinic,here are the differences.
So baby blues is something thatyou hear often.
And um, to be frank, um, when Iwas in the throes of postpartum
(04:20):
and in the throes of um reallystruggling with suicide, that's
what was said to me.
It's just baby blues.
Right.
And baby blues, here's thedifferences.
So baby blues are defined asit's only a few days to a week
after you've had a baby.
So it's a very short time frame.
(04:42):
And the symptoms include moodswings, anxiety, sadness,
irritability, feelingoverwhelmed, crying, reduced
concentration, you can haveappetite problems, and you can
have trouble sleeping.
And I when I wrote this up, Ikind of giggled because trouble
sleeping is just part ofpostpartum.
You have a brand new baby thatdoesn't know, you know, night
(05:04):
and day regulation.
They don't know sleep and theyhave to get up every two hours
to eat.
So trouble sleeping just kind ofcomes with that.
But um, so remember that babyblues are it's a short time
span.
And then what Mayo Clinic saysabout postpartum is it's more
intense, it lasts longer, itinterferes with your baby to
(05:24):
your ability to care foryourself and your baby.
Okay.
So those are, I think, the bigthings that need to be, and it
can last for up to a year aftergiving birth.
So that's important.
Um, the symptoms that they listare depressed mood or severe
mood swings, crying too much.
Um, I often hear when I talk towomen, they're like, I I
couldn't stop crying.
(05:45):
I was crying over everything.
Right.
And that's a really importantsign to pay attention to.
Um, bonding with baby issues.
So this is fascinating.
Um, when I started sharing aboutum my postpartum struggles, um,
I was in a training and I hadsomeone share with me that they
(06:06):
had found out through theirgrandmother that their own
mother had struggled.
And for the first like twomonths after they were born, she
could not hold her baby.
She was in bed and could nothold her baby for two months
because she had these bondingissues and was just in the
(06:27):
throes of postpartum depression.
Now, at the time, they didn'tknow what that was.
SPEAKER_00 (06:31):
Right.
Well, and I I just want to jumpin here really quick because
that brings something to mind.
Hearing that would, I feel like,bring on so much judgment from
the outside world.
And I think that that's probablyone of the reasons why people
don't talk about it.
Correct.
Because they're like, what'swrong with you?
(06:52):
You have a new baby, what youknow what I mean, instead of
treating it as a mental illnessat the time.
SPEAKER_01 (06:56):
Correct.
That's exactly right.
And I think that's why I thinkthat's why people why it's as I
called it a silent epidemic.
Right.
Is because, you know, suicide'sstigmatized enough.
And then when you add maternalmental health and suicide around
matern maternity and having ababy postpartum, there's like a
whole nother layer of stigma.
(07:18):
Right.
Because people are like, Well,you just you should be so happy.
This should be the happiestmoment of your whole life.
And that's what I heard in myown experience.
And then what I did was Iinternalized because I'm a
perfectionist.
And I internalized, and I uh thenext thing I had was, what is
wrong with me?
Right.
What's wrong with me?
And um, and so that's it, that'sdefinitely an important piece to
(07:40):
call out.
Yeah.
Because there's this doublelayer of stigma to it.
But the bonding with babyissues, it's very real.
It's a very real thing thatwomen can experience.
Withdrawing from friend familyand friends, and what you're
gonna hear with these signs isthis is a lot of the same stuff
we talk about in just suicideprevention within the community
as well.
(08:01):
Loss of appetite or you'reeating too much, inability to
sleep or sleeping too much.
Again, I giggled at that one.
Um, loss of energy where it'slike feels overwhelming, um
fatigue, intense irritability,uh, fear you aren't a good mom.
This was a hundred percentsomething that I experienced.
Hopelessness, shame, guilt,inadequacy, worthlessness.
(08:24):
That was a big and the shame andguilt.
That is, I think what keeps uhactive mothers that are in
postpartum that they're in thatroom from reaching out and
getting help.
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
Yeah, I could I could I could see that that
would be hard, especially if youthink about mother-in-laws and
all the people that are aroundyou after you give you birth.
I mean, I haven't, but I canjust imagine the pressure.
The pressure, you know, oh yeah,oh yeah, for sure.
And having a really good partneris would be key in in this and
(08:56):
making sure your partner is um,you know, um reading about
postpartum and educating theirselves because that's the person
that's probably gonna pull youout.
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (09:06):
And I think too, I think women just knowing if I
could go back and talk tomyself, I'd be much kinder to
the Jacqueline before I had myfirst child.
But I would also educate myself.
I think that's that's one of thesteps to help preventing it is
just education that it it is athing that can happen.
(09:27):
You can prepare all day long.
But until you get to that momentand you have that baby, you
actually don't know how yourbody's gonna respond.
And there's several factors thatplay into that.
Yeah.
But just having a generalawareness and knowledge of it, I
think is so critical.
And I did it.
I did it going into it.
I had no, I had this like la dida, it's gonna be perfect, you
(09:49):
know.
I even was like, here's my birthplan, and it's gonna go exactly
to, and it didn't at all.
SPEAKER_00 (09:58):
Can I ask you a really personal question?
Sure, please.
Did you struggle with thoughtsof suicide during your
postpartum?
I did.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
I did.
Um, and had you ever struggleduh previously?
SPEAKER_01 (10:10):
I never struggled with thoughts of suicide.
SPEAKER_00 (10:12):
I um So that was your first time, though.
So that's that's kind of that'simportant, I think, to it is
important to note make note offor people.
SPEAKER_01 (10:21):
I have a history of um anxiety and depression.
When I was 16, I went to myparents and said, I don't know
what's wrong, but something'swrong.
SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:31):
And I started therapy in medicine uh when I
was 16.
And so um I'm familiar withthose things.
Yeah.
Um, but not once did I think,oh, I probably should have this
conversation with because at thetime when I went in, I was not
on medicine.
Um, I had stopped takingmedicine.
And um, so there weren't anyconversations about that.
(10:54):
And that I'll get to more ofthat in my second pregnancy and
what I feel like was thedifference maker for me
personally.
But um, I wasn't on anything.
And so in my head, I was justlike, you know, I didn't even
think, hey, you have a historywith anxiety.
Right.
Maybe maybe you should bepreparing for what that looks
(11:15):
like in the post side of things.
SPEAKER_00 (11:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's really important.
And I think for even people, Imean, I could just talk about
myself here for a second.
It's like, you know, at a youngage, I struggle with thoughts of
suicide.
And okay, one day if I have akid and I'm going through
postpartum, you know, that'slike a big fear for me.
It's like, what's gonna happen?
Yeah.
And so I think for those thathave struggled, you know, with
(11:40):
those thoughts that uh payingattention, educating yourself,
um, talking to your doctor,talking to a therapist, seeing
what medications might be right,yes, could really help.
Yes.
Um I think, yeah, because that'sI mean, that is terrifying just
for me alone, you know, to thinkabout.
Um, what are your thoughts onmiscarriages and women that um
(12:05):
say they lose three months in,four months in, five months in?
Do you think the postpartum, thehormonal drop um is as extreme?
Or would you say like look forthe same signs?
Because I think that also goesunder like overlooked.
Oh, it absolutely does.
Because then people arestruggling with a loss, but then
(12:26):
they also have the hormonaldrop.
Correct.
And then there's like a wholeother guilt and weirdness around
that.
And I found that um women don'ttalk about it.
No, we don't talk about it atall.
I was so surprised.
I mean, I I work in a hairsalon.
Right.
And women talk about everything,right?
Like literally everything.
And I I had a miscarriage at thebeginning of the year, and I
(12:50):
even I found myself kind ofbeing quiet and I'm kind of like
very talkative and very openperson.
And but I I had started talkingabout it.
And what I found in my chair wasthat women wanted to talk about
it.
They like to talk about it, butum, it's there's not like a
space really for women to talkabout it.
And then and then then thedepression that that led to, you
(13:12):
know?
And correct.
I I've seen, you know, ups anddowns.
I had a lady come in the otherday.
She's like, okay, I want to cutbangs, I want to cut my hair
here, and I want to dye itblack.
And I was like, What's going on?
Like, are you okay?
Just pause and talk about yourlife.
Let's send it.
We need therapy.
Yeah.
And she had gone through amiscarriage.
Yeah.
(13:32):
And so I was like, okay, we'renot cutting your hair.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We're gonna later.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's like you're just noteven in your right mind.
And that was and it was an earlyloss for her too.
So it's like, yeah, mentalhealth is so complex.
SPEAKER_01 (13:46):
So I'll share with you, I had a miscarriage.
Yeah.
Um, but it was early in myhusband and I's marriage, we
were not trying.
And I think this is a a crucialthing to absolutely talk about
as part of this maternal mentalhealth spectrum.
Um it was heartbreaking, butalso it was one of those things
(14:09):
where I was grateful, whichsounds weird because we were in
a place where we we couldn'tafford to take care of a child.
There was no way.
There was no way.
Um, so I had this like guilt andshame and all the like stuff
that kind of goes with that.
And we're mourning loss, right?
Yeah.
Skip forward to okay, we'reready to start a family, so
(14:29):
we're gonna start trying.
Um I did not know that onaverage, it takes a woman about
a year and a half on average toget pregnant.
Wow.
Nobody tells you that.
No, nobody says that to you now.
When I have friends that arelike, I'm trying to get
(14:50):
pregnant, that's the first thingI'll say is start now.
You know, it takes about a yearand a half to get pregnant on
average.
Yeah.
And I think that's important forwomen to know because this was
my experience.
So it took us about a year forme to get pregnant with our son.
And um in that year, I would, wewould try, and then I would not
(15:17):
be pregnant and I would cry.
And then we try again and Iwouldn't be pregnant and I would
cry.
And I did that and back andforth and back and forth every
single month.
The same thing.
It got worse as you were goingas I was going through, because
I was like, oh my gosh, issomething wrong with me?
Is something wrong with him?
Like, it's this whole like quietthing that you're dealing with
(15:40):
of like, what's going on?
Mm-hmm.
Am I broken?
Right.
Had I known that it takes onaverage a year and a half, I'd
have been so much nicer tomyself.
SPEAKER_00 (15:53):
Yeah.
And it just goes back toeducating ourselves and correct,
reading and like the knowledgeis out there and just knowledge,
seeking and finding and notbeing afraid to reach out.
I mean, yes, these days you canask chat GPT anything.
SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
Oh, yeah.
That's true.
This is true.
I I will tell you, like, I thinkbeing willing to be the person
that opens up and says, this iswhat's going on.
That's helping to change thenarrative and opening it up
100%.
Um now, as far as do I thinkit's on the same level?
I think it's a spectrum, right?
(16:26):
And that's I often talk aboutpostpartum depression and how
women their bodies react afterhaving a baby.
It's all on a spectrum.
Everyone used to be.
You could have nothing.
Right.
It could be absolutely nothing.
Or it could be, you know, myexperience, or even where I've
(16:47):
seen worse, you know, where it'sit is a we are in a huge fight
and battle for our mind and ourbaby and our health and all of
those things.
Yeah.
Um, just like when you getpregnant, your symptoms that you
can have are on a spectrum.
Yeah.
You can have nothing, or you canbe like Amy Schumer, who was
this literally vomiting everyday for nine months.
(17:09):
You know, it could be all ofthose things.
So um, I think it's on aspectrum, and I think more
people need to talk aboutmiscarrying.
SPEAKER_00 (17:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was, I was really shocked.
I was like, gosh, I've beendoing hair for 20 years.
And like, I was like, nobodyever hardly would tell me.
I mean, here and there, butthey're like, oh yeah, I had
five.
I had 20.
Correct.
I'm like, what?
SPEAKER_01 (17:32):
That's certainly so common.
And that's when I talk about it,that's normal.
People are like, oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:37):
I had like five before we had something it makes
you feel like you're not alone.
There's nothing wrong.
And like, you know, I have areally great doctor right now,
and he was like, Look, it wasjust probably not a great egg.
You're healthy, there's nothing.
Correct.
Yeah, it's correct.
Yeah.
Like, you know, uh, life justhas a way of ridding itself, and
then you know, so somethinggreat can form, and something
(17:59):
more perfect, like the egg hasto be perfect, he said.
Correct.
And you know, so correct.
SPEAKER_01 (18:03):
And that's, you know, I will say this, and
there's a little levity in thisconversation.
Um just circle of life kind ofthing.
It did make me question how onenight stand babies happen.
Honestly.
SPEAKER_00 (18:15):
Like how?
But it's it is because if youlike actually think about it,
it's like very rare to cut ahair rare in the has to be here.
This has to be there in theline.
SPEAKER_01 (18:27):
You know?
Yeah.
So if you're a one-night standbaby, you are very rare in this
world.
Yes, you're a miracle child.
SPEAKER_00 (18:34):
It was just meant to be you're just meant to be here.
That's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
Yeah, that's funny.
Um, let's see.
Okay, let's talk about triggers.
What are some of the main riskfactors that might increase a
woman's likelihood of developingpostpartum depression?
SPEAKER_01 (18:51):
So, again, Mayo Clinic, not mine specific.
So, um, what the Mayo Clinic hadto say was that triggers can
often be genetics.
Oh, okay.
So there can be um some links tofamily history.
Uh, see, that's what scares methe most.
(19:13):
But now listen, and I'll saythis to you, but also anyone
else who's had lived experiencewith suicide.
We know in our our suicideresearch that even if you have
attempted previously, does thatdoes not mean that you are going
to die by suicide.
Right.
The other thing that needs to besaid is you are educating
(19:34):
yourself and those around you.
So the second you start feelingthose things, and even me,
uneducated me, I have a clearmoment in my head of the night
that I had suicidal thinking andI was like, okay, I'm gonna do
this, it's clear in my brain.
(19:56):
And I don't think I'll ever beable to remove the images, what
was happening, what I was doingfrom my head.
But even then, I remember havingthose thoughts and going, I'm
not okay.
Something is wrong.
SPEAKER_00 (20:14):
Cause in that moment you can't really access that
part of brain.
That's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
And that's why you needed time.
Correct.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
And so it was this days, weeks, I mean, of me kind
of reaching out for help, butnot really.
Like I was asking the people Iwas close to, have you ever
experienced this?
Like, what have you done?
Like trying to like gauge.
Yeah.
Is this me?
(20:43):
Yeah.
Am I am I the only one who feelsthis way?
And when I got back, it was kindof fascinating because it was a
mixture of it's baby plugs.
It's just baby plugs.
Everybody experiences babyblues.
Get outside, you know, do this,do that.
And I implemented some of thosestrategies.
And you're like, okay, helped.
(21:04):
Coping mechanisms.
Coping mechanisms.
That's exactly right.
Yeah.
But what actually helped me,there's something deeper going
on.
Correct.
What actually helped me, andthis, and this is she still to
this day, I don't think knowsthat she was my what really
caught me.
Um, it was about probably sixmonths after I gave him birth.
(21:24):
And I've been struggling forprobably all three months.
And um, we were at an event, andI I had my baby with me and my
husband, and my husband washolding a baby, and I was
standing next to a woman that Iserved on a board with for
another nonprofit.
And without saying anything, shesaid, you know, I hated the
(21:45):
newborn face.
And I whipped my head around sofast and I said, What did you
just say?
And she was an older woman, andand what I was getting from
older women was that rhetoric ofaren't you so happy?
Mm-hmm.
You have a baby, you should beso happy.
Right.
I would give anything to be backin that.
And I get that now.
I being out of it, I get that.
(22:06):
Yeah, yeah, I do.
But I said, I'm sorry, what didyou just say?
And she said, Oh, I hated thenewborn phase.
She was like, But after, youknow, seven, eight months, every
phase after was my favorite.
SPEAKER_00 (22:20):
Oh.
She was probably startstruggling with postpartum.
SPEAKER_01 (22:23):
And it was this moment of like, oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_00 (22:27):
I'm half postpartum depression.
SPEAKER_01 (22:29):
I'm not alone.
Yeah.
But other people experience thisbecause I hated the newborn
phase.
Wow.
What I didn't recognize then andwhat my my second pregnancy and
and what I did to help myself inthat second pregnancy was like,
I needed help.
SPEAKER_00 (22:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
I needed to have um for me, I needed to be on
medicine.
SPEAKER_00 (22:50):
Yeah, I think, yeah, I remember you telling me that
your your first pregnancy youdidn't didn't.
And then after so secondpregnancy, you started medicine
after delivery.
So I was on medicine before.
SPEAKER_01 (23:01):
And um, and actually PCP said, you gotta get off,
which is not true.
Talk to your OBGYN.
He'll tell you whether or notyou need to get off because it
just depends on dosage and whatyou're on.
Okay, that's important to sayhello.
These are all importantconversations to have with your
OBGYN.
But um, we were in post op and Isaid, Hey doc, I struggle with
(23:26):
postpartum and suicide.
Um, I'm worried for myself.
What can I do?
Was this um after you literallyafter I got out of the OR, I'm
in the post-op room, okay,holding my daughter.
And you and this is when you saythis is what I say to her.
Yes, because she comes in forlike the checkup.
SPEAKER_00 (23:48):
Because you're like, I don't want to go through
another seven months of hell.
I don't.
SPEAKER_01 (23:51):
Yeah.
And she said, Well, what dosageare you on?
I said, 25 milligrams.
And she said, Girl, that'slicking it.
And I laughed and I go, what?
And she laughed at herself andshe said, I'm sorry.
That dosage is about the same asif you took the pill and licked
it.
She said, Let's let's up yourdosage.
Okay.
And I said, Okay.
(24:11):
And we did.
And it makes me sad.
But it also I'm so gratefulbecause my postpartum, like my
time with my daughter was anight and day difference.
Because I had the courage to saythat to my OBGYN.
(24:33):
And because I was taking care ofmyself, I knew the things to
like okay when these thoughtsstart coming in my mind.
You know, I was crying all thetime within it.
I was I would look at him andcry and be like, I'm sorry, I
can't be a better mom to you.
Right.
I felt so much shame and guilt.
(24:54):
And I think some of it too is,you know, I brought in that I
had that perfectionist piece.
I'm a high achieving person.
Yeah.
That's just who I am.
And we have this campaign inAFSP and it's check on your
strong friends.
And this is, I think, one of thethings that with maternal mental
health is so critical.
SPEAKER_02 (25:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:13):
And I think oftentimes when women are these
strong, powerful get stuff donewomen, we think they're fine.
And when they say they're fine,which is what I was doing, I'm
fine, I'm fine.
Everything's fine.
I'm fine.
SPEAKER_00 (25:29):
Everything's fine.
SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
We take that for what it is.
And we don't yeah, we don't tryto examine further.
Um and so for me, uh looking atthe differences, it was such a
stark contrast between my son's,you know, post and my
daughter's.
I was I enjoy the newborn phasewith her.
(25:52):
And so I think um those arecritical things to kind of pay
attention to, genetics, all ofthose things.
Um, other triggers and otherthings that can cause.
Yes.
So physical changes.
So, you know, that was one thingalso that I don't know why.
It took me it took me a year anda half to feel like I was in my
(26:16):
body again.
Really?
So there's this weirdexperience.
SPEAKER_00 (26:20):
I hear everybody say that.
I mean I hear everybody saythat.
It's so scary.
I'm like, oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_01 (26:25):
It's this weird experience you have where you go
like your body's not your own.
Your body's not your own, right?
Um, and that's because your bodyis physically giving so much to
this baby, to the creation ofthis baby, to the building of
its foundation that it needs,right?
And you give birth to this baby,and there's a huge drop in
(26:49):
hormones, right?
Testosterone and progestion.
So had I known that, Idefinitely think I would have
given myself more grace of like,oh my gosh.
Yeah, girl, you took nine monthsto create this baby.
And you thought you were gonnabe back to normal in two.
Yeah.
(27:10):
That's why that bounce back.
SPEAKER_00 (27:12):
Oh, I hate that word.
SPEAKER_01 (27:13):
I hate that term.
It's literally horrible.
Oh, you'll bounce back.
And I'm like, when you get ridof it.
SPEAKER_00 (27:17):
Oh my gosh, I hate that word.
I think it's like, I think Iheard my grandparents say it and
my mom say it, and it was like aword from their era.
Yes, it's and I'm like, I noteverybody, you know, can just do
that like you did.
Correct.
Like everyone has their ownjourney, correct.
SPEAKER_01 (27:33):
And and bodies are built differently, and all those
things, it's not fair.
It's a very not fair term towomen, um, especially postpartum
women.
And um, but you have this thisnine months of creating life,
and we I put it in my head, atleast with my son, that I bounce
back immediately.
SPEAKER_00 (27:54):
Because it puts like this pressure on you.
And if you don't bounce back,there's something wrong with
your wrong with you.
So you're dealing with what'swrong with me that I can't stop
crying?
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
What's wrong with me that I'm not happy because I've
just had this baby?
What's wrong with me that I'mnot rail thin?
Right.
Right?
Exactly.
Um, and I also struggle withbreastfeeding, which can also
add more guilt.
It was so much guilt of like, ohmy gosh, I can't do this.
I mean, I remember, which we canwe'll talk about this a little
bit more about, you know, whatare some of the gaps in care
(28:26):
here?
And there are gaps in our care,110%.
Yeah.
I remember being in thepediatrician's office and being
like, they had a a breastconsultant come in and a
breastfeeding consultant come inand talk to me about
breastfeeding.
And she, she, you know, tryingto breastfeed my son.
Yeah.
And he is, he just grab takesboth hands, grabs my boob, and
(28:47):
just shoves it.
He's like, No.
I laughed so hard that myhusband came around the corner
and he goes, What is wrong?
And I said, What am I doing?
Yeah.
Why am I forcing this so hard?
Yeah.
It's clearly not working for us.
Why am I doing this to myself?
(29:09):
And we started formula.
Yeah.
I was a formula baby and it wasgiving me huge.
Yeah.
I mean, it was it was a nine-daydifference.
And that, you know, that'ssomething that our pediatrician
now has said.
And and again, in my second, inmy second delivery, um, he said,
Did you breastfeed the firsttime?
I breastfed for six weeks thefirst time because I forced
(29:30):
myself.
Okay, okay.
Forced it.
Forced it.
Because I was pumping.
Also.
Yeah.
To try to make it work.
And the contraptions that thehospital put me on was wild.
When I tell people what they hadus do when we left, a lot of
people are like, why, why, whywould you do that?
And I was like, because Ithought that's what was the best
(29:52):
thing.
And it had to be that.
You know, it had to be that.
SPEAKER_00 (29:55):
Everything that I read right now about like
pregnancy and like even likebirth positions, like, oh yeah.
I hear like laying on your backis one of the worst positions.
And there's like, don't rub thevernix off.
Right.
Right.
Wait till the umbilical cordturns white.
And so the baby can get all theblood.
And then let your husband cutit.
And then, like, what else isthere?
(30:16):
Oh, the vaccines.
Like, the baby isn't evenhepatized.
I'm like, right, I'm likebombarded with so much
information, you know, aboutpregnancy and giving birth and
all this.
And it's like, I can see wherethere's so much pressure and
like pull.
And I feel like at the end ofthe day, you just kind of have
to educate yourself oneverything, like literally
(30:38):
everything.
And then you and your partnerjust make the best decision that
you think is possible and youjust roll with it.
You roll with it, right?
Exactly right.
Yeah.
I mean, we even Because mygoodness, you can't make, you
know, everyone's gonna disagreewith something.
SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
Correct, correct.
So it's yeah.
And I think that's what it'sthat's that other level of guilt
that comes in with postpartumand just like that kind of
there's there's so much that youhave to figure out.
There's also you don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (31:03):
Yeah.
And then like I know um some ofyou know, um, pregnant women
that I know, their husbands arelike, so like you need a
breastfeed, you need abreastfeed.
This is the best for the baby,this is best for the baby.
And there's like a certainamount of pressure that even the
husbands are putting on thewives, and it's like they need
to go to baby school, parenting,correct, like educate
(31:25):
everything, mental health, likeso it's like all inclusive.
Yeah, because it's not justabout, you know, formula or not
formula, or you know, so I feelI feel like there's a lot of
that out there too.
SPEAKER_01 (31:38):
There is a lot of that out there, and that can add
a lot of unnecessary pressurebecause again, you don't know.
I mean, I've had friends thatare like cows, they produce,
it's insane.
Yeah, they're jealous of it,it's incredible.
Selling their milk online ordonating.
It's incredible, yeah.
And then there are like peoplelike me where if I got four
(31:59):
milliliters, I was crying.
SPEAKER_00 (32:01):
I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing, you know,
like it it's and it's all ofthose things, and that just it's
like a balance of like takingcare of yourself, it sounds like
yeah, and then also your baby.
Yep, yep.
SPEAKER_01 (32:13):
Oh, it's all those, all those mix of things, and
then um thyroid hormones droptoo, which can lead to like that
sluggish feeling that you feel.
Yeah.
Um, I had so I had a birth plan,I think I mentioned this, and um
was convinced that it was gonnago exactly like that.
Um, it did not.
(32:35):
So um I went in and um theyinduced me.
Um, it was a Monday morning at 5a.m.
And um I did not have our sonuntil um that Thursday morning.
Oh my gosh.
At 12.
Oh wow.
(32:55):
So I labored for three days.
Oh my gosh.
And part of that was because mybody wasn't ready.
Okay, right?
So um that was a big portion ofit.
And and at the time I had anOBGYN that came in, she was
hilarious.
I loved her.
Um, and she she just said, youknow, I don't know why we
(33:18):
induced you, we should not havedone this.
And she wasn't my normal OBGYN.
And she said, but you know,we're gonna keep trying, we're
gonna keep trying.
And I got to a point, my um myheartbeat dropped, my son's
heartbeat dropped, and I wasright at nine centimeters, and
the teen came in and she justlooked at me and she said, It's
(33:42):
not gonna happen.
I need I need to take this baby.
We need to go to the OR.
And um So C-section.
So C-section.
And you know, again, I my planwas this is how it's gonna go.
Yeah.
I didn't even read aboutC-section, like truly educate
myself.
Right, you're like, I don't wantto.
(34:05):
That's not even a thought in mybrain.
Maybe it's because you didn't.
I don't know.
It looks pretty scary to me.
I whip my head around and I'mI'll probably cry.
But I whip my head around and Ilooked at my husband and I said,
I can't do this.
And he said, You can do this.
And all three of us are comingout of this hospital.
(34:26):
And I said, Okay.
And the minute we were like,Okay, it was it probably took
five minutes for us to get tothe OR.
Um they pulled the baby out.
Of course, my husband, y'all,he's the the funniest, most
amazing man, but he did not wantto see any part of the C
(34:47):
section.
And he's tall, so he's likecrouching down next to me.
And and the OBGYN, she justshe's the excellent surgeon, and
just she was like, Oh my gosh,he has red hair.
Do you want to see?
And my husband's like, nope,that's fine, it's fine.
We'll see in a minute, you know.
And um, and then we were in thehospital for about a week.
(35:10):
We didn't leave until that waslike I say a week.
We didn't leave until Fridayafternoon.
Um it so it was a lot, it was alot.
And you know, we had them anearly in the morning, and they
get you up every two hours tofeed and to like, so we our
clocks were all off.
And you know, I had just beenthrough a major surgery surgery.
(35:34):
Yeah.
That's the other thing that Ithink it just gets passed over,
is the rhetoric of C-section'san easy way out.
Absolutely not, right?
None of them are easy ways out,right?
SPEAKER_00 (35:47):
Right, yeah, I know it seems more intense
transaction to me that hashappened.
SPEAKER_01 (35:52):
I said I don't have experience in this, but it seems
a lot more intense.
It's more intense, and you'vegot now you are recovering from
a surgery and birth.
And birth, and now we have ababy, and you can only pick up
so many pounds.
Correct.
Yeah, correct.
Yep.
If you have surgery, youactually cannot pick up, you're
not supposed to pick up thecare.
(36:13):
Um so um, yeah, I think all thatkind of plays into it as well.
SPEAKER_00 (36:18):
And do you think they push C-sections in a lot
more now?
I I I I asked that questionbecause like I have this overall
general feeling.
I have no evidence or anythinglike that, other than just like
things that I hear.
Um so I have no um statisticalbackground of this information.
SPEAKER_01 (36:40):
That needs to be said out loud.
So people please fact check meand you can look this up
yourself.
But um, I do think at one pointI heard that Northwest Arkansas
has a very high rate ofC-sections.
SPEAKER_00 (36:52):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (36:52):
A very, very high rate of the same.
SPEAKER_00 (36:53):
I have a feeling that, yeah, we'll have to push
fact-check that.
SPEAKER_01 (36:57):
Pushing you, I don't know because and I say this to
people all the time.
Um, you know, I grew up as adaughter of a physician who was
trained.
That just because a physician issaying that does not mean that
that's the end all be all.
Right.
It's your body, you know yourbody.
And so when I went to my secondone, I was like, I'm gonna do V
(37:18):
back.
Yeah, I'm gonna do it.
And my doctor and I came to thatagreement.
We were like, okay, great, let'sdo VBAC, it's gonna happen.
But then in emergencysituations, just you had that's
what you had to do.
Well, so but my second one, wegot closer to time and my OEGY
and said, Hey, you're notdilated.
(37:39):
You should be.
We should already see be seeingit.
In fact, you're negative, whichI don't even know what that
means.
To this day, I still don't knowwhat that means.
That I did I just was I justlike sucking it back up.
I don't know what's happening,but it's not happening.
I'm not coming out today.
I I like to joke that I made toogood of a home for my lobbies,
but um, but he said, listen, wecan try.
(38:04):
Mm-hmm.
Or you can move your date up.
And we'll because they they puta C section date out for me.
But I was like, be back, it'shappening.
Did you deliver at 40 weeks?
I delivered at 39 weeks, Ithink, with her.
I was right at.
And um, I was in the OR becausewe went ahead and moved it up.
I was in the OR and I waspissed.
(38:26):
Sitting in the OR, prepped,ready to go.
I was like, I was gonna be back.
And they get her out.
And my OBGYN said, Oh my gosh.
And I was like, Of course,that's what you want to hear
when you're on an OR likethey're they're doing surgery on
you.
She goes, You're like, What?
What what?
So glad we did the C-section.
(38:46):
Why?
My daughter had wrapped herumbilical cord around her neck
twice.
Oh my gosh.
And she had pretzeled, literallypretzeled the umbilical cord,
and my OGYN pulls it up and shegoes, I've only seen this twice
in my 20 years of doing this.
Wow.
And so it was one of thosemoments of like, okay, well, I
(39:07):
was supposed to do this.
Yeah.
But this is what we weresupposed to be.
Yeah.
And she's safe and she'shealthy, and I'm safe and
healthy, and all the things.
So I say all those things,tassage those fears.
Yeah.
Now, can I speak to is it push?
I think that's relevant to you.
Yeah.
What do you want?
(39:28):
Communicate that.
Yeah.
And then also be willing to oneeducate yourself, be better than
me, educate yourself onC-section, but also know that
like your plan, yes, that'sgreat.
That's but it can change.
But it can change.
Yeah.
For the health of you and thehealth of the baby.
SPEAKER_00 (39:42):
Yeah.
Actually, um, one of my friends,uh, she kind of told me a very
similar story.
She had her whole birth plan.
Yeah, it's how she thought itwas gonna go.
And she's like, Well, I guessGod had different plans for me.
And she's got a beautiful,healthy boy.
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah.
Those are good things.
Um, let's see, what else?
Um, hope and recovery.
For women listening who might besilently struggling right now,
(40:04):
what would you want them toknow?
SPEAKER_01 (40:08):
So um I think an important thing for women
listening who are in the throesof this is you're not alone.
In fact, there are probably morewomen in your life that have
struggled with this than youhave any.
SPEAKER_00 (40:25):
And reach out and talk to them.
Yeah, oh, a hundred percent.
Tell somebody start talking topeople, talk to your doctor.
SPEAKER_01 (40:31):
Start talking.
If you are a high achiever or aperfectionist like me, it is
okay to say and be vulnerable, Idon't think I'm doing okay.
Yeah.
It truly is okay to say that.
And I it it it's a strength, youknow, it's a strength.
100% it's a strength.
SPEAKER_00 (40:49):
And I think that it's even more important in
these moments because you're notonly caring for yourself, but
you're caring for, you know, umcorrect, a baby baby.
SPEAKER_01 (40:59):
This brand new baby, this brand new and it's a whole
new life.
I think give yourself the space.
SPEAKER_00 (41:04):
Let the shame go.
Yes, let's let the guilt go.
Yeah.
Just say screw it.
Yes.
Be afraid to for themother-in-law to judge you.
Right.
Like that's another thing.
Whatever.
Because I feel like the wholemother-in-law pressure is
probably.
I hear this through, you know,working in a salon when we talk.
Yes, yes.
I hear that.
Well, my mother-in-law or mymother, my own mother, you know,
(41:27):
that everyone has these, allthese ideas of how you should
be, but who's actually listeningto you?
Correct.
And what you need.
And it's like sometimes it'slike your voice just gets it, it
sounds like their voice justgets muffled.
Yes.
And I think that for mothers,mother-in-laws, everybody out
there, like to kind of keep thatin mind.
And like, what's the one thing Ihear is like when you first get
(41:48):
to the hospital, don't go seethe baby right away.
Like see the mom first and say,Hey, how are you doing?
You know, like that's that's thebest etiquette that you can have
after because everyone justwants to see the baby, but then
like the mom's like just there.
SPEAKER_01 (42:01):
Right.
You know?
Yeah, correct.
Which nowadays the baby is inthe room with you all the time.
So is it?
Oh yeah.
Oh, good.
There's no thing.
Oh yeah.
And there's no going into ayou're not gonna get mixed up in
the nursery.
Now, unless you have unless youhave like an a a situation where
we need to go right like theNikki or whatever.
Yeah.
But um, no, I think, and I thinktalking about it, I think on the
(42:24):
mother-in-law side, this iswhere the partner comes into
play significantly.
And if you don't have a partner,um, if you're a badass having a
baby on your own, kudos to you.
But also having a friend or sometype of support that can be
your, I guess, gate is the bestway.
SPEAKER_00 (42:48):
What was it, the thing that you said?
Do you have eight minutes?
Or seven minutes?
Yeah, what do you have eightminutes?
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (42:54):
That can be your person.
SPEAKER_00 (42:55):
Or you can say, or the person can say, Do you need
eight minutes?
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (42:59):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (42:59):
Do you have eight minutes or do you need eight
minutes?
SPEAKER_01 (43:01):
Eight minutes.
Yeah, that's good.
Yeah.
But and that comes from a umcampaign we did of like just
really setting up those systemsthat if you're struggling to be
able to say, Hey, do you haveeight minutes?
Kind of a code word for like,I'm struggling with suicide.
Yeah.
And say out loud, like, I'm not,I'm not okay.
Right.
Right.
Right.
So no, but I think the partneror the friend that can help
(43:24):
gatekeep you and the baby.
What I mean by that is ifmother-in-law is not respecting
boundaries, this is where thepartner comes into play.
Right.
And needs to play that role.
Yep.
Has to play that role.
SPEAKER_00 (43:38):
Yeah, like ask the mother first if it's okay for
somebody to come into the room.
Correct.
Is what I was reading about thislast night, turned to prep for
this.
But it was like the mother is ina very vulnerable place.
She's healing.
Right.
Um, she just went through likethe biggest hardest thing she'll
ever go through.
Her body has been pushed to thelimits.
(43:59):
And so making sure that thatevery single person that enters
that room, it's you, you'veyou've asked.
Yeah.
Are you ready?
Is it okay?
And if and like, don't put anypressure, don't push, and just
be super respectful for is whatI've read.
SPEAKER_01 (44:13):
Yeah.
And that's I wrote in here taketake lead from mom.
Yeah.
Right.
And and and what I wouldencourage women who maybe aren't
in postpartum but are pregnantand expecting is start
communicating what you wantduring postpartum.
SPEAKER_00 (44:28):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (44:28):
Clearly.
Way before.
Way before.
These are gonna be theboundaries, these are gonna be,
you know, a lot of times becausethat could give somebody a lot
of anxiety if those thingsaren't in place.
SPEAKER_00 (44:39):
Like I think I would freak out.
Yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (44:42):
I didn't have um necessarily mother-in-law, dance
mom passed, and I didn't have amother-in-law that, you know,
came over, but um, you know, wewere very clear.
We this is you're welcome tocome and visit, please Alice,
you know, you know, all thesethings.
Yeah.
And then, you know, I had peoplethat were like, we want to do a
meal train for you.
So you kind of have to decidethose things too, but just
(45:04):
communicate that clearly inadvance would be my my uh two
cents on that.
Um, but that's where partnercomes into play, where we can
kind of help gatekeep baby andmom just because this is a
really sensitive time of you'rerecovering, there's all these,
it's all newness.
Also, you know, you'rebreastfeeding on demand.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:24):
And I think some cultures like do this 40-day
thing.
SPEAKER_01 (45:28):
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Some cultures do 40 days of justthem and then there's a really
great book, and I cannot thinkof it right now, that I read um
when I was expecting our son.
And it starts up, it's writtenby a British woman.
It's very good.
But I giggled at her and nowbeing out of sight of all of it,
(45:48):
and I actually did it.
Um, but she talks about walkinginto your home and walking your
baby around and showing them thehouse like you would uh a new
guest.
Oh my gosh, it's so she waslike, I just laugh, I remember
laughing, reading that becausewhen I was pregnant, because I
was like, but I did it.
I did it with the I just walkedhim around and I was like, this
(46:09):
is the dining room and this isthe and it just was one of those
things where it's like this isour moment to like we're
building this life with him.
Yeah, you know, so um definitelydo boundaries.
I I think if anyone's listeningand they're in the throes at
this, the other really importantthing for you to know is, and a
lot of people don't know this,there's actually a national
(46:30):
maternal mental health hotline.
It is 24-7, it's over 250languages, and it is designed
for um anybody that isstruggling with anything around
postpartum.
You're pregnant, you know, thereare some women that struggle
with depression and suicidewhile they're pregnant.
(46:51):
Any of that breastfeeding.
What is this hotline?
So it's 1-800 TLC mama, t 1-800TLC mama, and I did the lifting,
so it's 1-800-852-6262.
SPEAKER_00 (47:07):
Okay, and let me ask you a question.
If somebody can't remember thatin the moment, um, can they call
998-988 and get this number?
They can get the six they'llconnect them with that number.
Yep, yep, yep.
Okay, perfect.
So 988 is so easy to remember.
SPEAKER_01 (47:20):
And then if you want to repeat that one more time to
our listeners, 1-800-TLC Mama.
And it's great.
And and and if you're a partneror friend listening, go ahead
and take that down.
SPEAKER_00 (47:32):
Put it in your phone.
If you're seeing signs ofpostpartum and you're worried,
call that number and they canhelp walk you through what to
do, what the signs are, and likerefresh your memory.
Cause I mean, even myself beingeducated, when somebody comes up
and says, Hey, I'm struggling,I'm like, okay, what are the
steps?
Da da da.
And sometimes you get in likethis, you know, fright mode, and
(47:54):
you're like, I want to doeverything right.
And it's so nice to just havethat number to call, be like,
hold on one second, and it cankind of like calmly like walk
you through it.
Yeah, you know?
Yeah.
Cause like we all go throughthings, but we want to make sure
that we're um, you know, doingour best to help other people
that actually do reach outbecause you may be the only
person, you may be the onlyperson that um they reach out
(48:16):
to.
100%.
You may be their only lifeline.
A hundred percent.
So and and and knowing what todo and calling those numbers, I
think, is can be life or deathsometimes for people for just
never know.
SPEAKER_01 (48:27):
For sure.
And I'll add to like in my firstpregnancy, some of the things
that helped me um kind of getout of the hole.
Yeah.
Um, is I I akin it to when weshut down completely for the
COVID pandemic and everyone wasisolated and it was it was hard
(48:47):
because we as human beings, weneed connection, right?
Yeah.
So um, you're kind of goingthrough the same thing when
you're in postpartum.
It's very isolating.
It's all the like kind of riskfactors that we talk about that
can kind of combine to createthis perfect storm.
And so I started going, uh, Iwould I made myself a schedule.
(49:09):
I'm such a type A personalitythat I made myself a schedule
every day and it made me lookforward to the same thing.
And I matched it with my son'ssleep schedule.
So we got up in the morning, wewent for a walk.
I got outside.
I wasn't doing that.
You know, when I first got home,I was just kind of in the habit.
SPEAKER_00 (49:29):
Force yourself to get out.
I was just here.
SPEAKER_01 (49:31):
But I was like, we got we gotta get out and go.
Yeah.
Um, I started forcing myself touh plan moments throughout the
week where I would go to Targetor I would go get lunch with
somebody, or I would, and itfelt daunting because you pack
all the things, there's a lot ofstuff there with tapies that you
(49:53):
had to carry.
And I was, you know, early on Iwas like, why would I do that to
myself?
But I started forcing myselfbecause I just realized I needed
a moment to just interact, lookat something else, you know,
engage with the world around me.
And so I started putting thosethings on my calendar, which was
so helpful for my brain to belike, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (50:16):
And I feel like something that comes to mind
too.
Um if you can't get to thatpoint even, yes, invite somebody
over and have coffee, have tea,and maybe have them help you get
out of the house and pack thatbag and go on that walk.
Or just like phone a friend andbe like, look, I need you to
come over once a week and justhelp me take this next step
(50:39):
because I don't want to fall inthis hole.
Yep.
Making like a pact like thatwith somebody could make a huge
difference.
Huge difference.
Because like what you're seeingis great and and I think it
shows a lot of strength that youcould do that.
But I know like when I wasreally struggling, like I I
didn't even have the strength tobarely like let my dog out the
door.
Right.
(50:59):
You know?
So it's like I feel it justreminded me of like, I probably
should have invited somebodyover to my house, but I was
still embarrassed in thatmoment.
Right.
I was like, my house is a mess.
This is, but I think just likegetting over the fear of
reaching out and just think,okay, I need help.
So come over and help me.
Yes, yes.
And just a trusted friend.
(51:19):
Yes.
Or someone.
SPEAKER_01 (51:21):
I think you bring up a really good point.
So um I have this thing that Ido.
I've done it, I learned it fromsomebody, so it's not original.
Um, but I do this thing calledpick three for lunch.
So, or dinner, if I'm going tocoffee with somebody, I'm like,
pick three places and then I'llpick one.
Okay.
But my concept here is let'sflip that.
(51:41):
Pick one.
So you're going to send to yourfriend, if you are a friend or a
mother-in-law, or um, you know,a church member or neighbor, and
you want to help your um personwho's just had a baby, send them
three options of what you couldor want to do uh-huh and let
(52:04):
them pick one.
I think what happens is we wantto help women that are in these
periods of time, but we go, tellme what you need.
And they you they don't knowwhat they need.
I don't know what I need.
Yeah.
I have no idea.
SPEAKER_00 (52:16):
We need somebody to just tell us what to do.
I need some.
SPEAKER_01 (52:19):
Or do some laundry.
I need somebody to do, you know,it's like it's it's all these
things.
Yeah.
Um, and make them like thosethings that you offer.
SPEAKER_00 (52:27):
Make them I think that's I think that's key too,
is that sometimes people justdon't have enough help.
Correct.
Enough community.
Correct.
Enough, you know, women or otherwomen around them to to help.
I think um, you know, they sayit takes a village, but I think
there's something to that.
So I think, you know, just notbeing afraid to reach out,
(52:49):
trying to build a community ofwomen around you, or, you know,
um, maybe calling the hotlineand saying, hey, is there like a
local group?
SPEAKER_02 (52:58):
Support groups.
SPEAKER_00 (52:59):
Support groups that I could connect with because
like I'm really struggling.
Something, just something.
SPEAKER_01 (53:05):
Yeah, something is huge.
I think for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (53:07):
Yeah.
For sure, for sure.
Well, I do you have anythingelse that you want to share with
our listeners?
SPEAKER_01 (53:13):
Trying to think if there's anything else.
Um know that with appropriatetreatment, yeah, percent of
women who struggle withpostpartum um recover.
SPEAKER_00 (53:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:27):
So that's a really important thing to hear now.
SPEAKER_00 (53:29):
And you said too, like for you, it was like the
first seven months, especially,and then you were able to dial
it back down.
I think like letting go of thatfear, is this medication gonna
affect the baby?
Is it gonna affect me?
Is it gonna did you takemedication while you were
pregnant?
SPEAKER_01 (53:42):
I did, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (53:43):
Okay, and it was and your doctors are like, it's a
safe, it's okay, all the things.
And I think that there's astigma around taking medication
also while you're pregnant.
SPEAKER_01 (53:50):
There is.
SPEAKER_00 (53:51):
Um, and so I think there's confusion.
SPEAKER_01 (53:53):
And there's a lot of confusion, right?
You need to have a conversationwith the OBGYN.
SPEAKER_00 (54:01):
You're like, wait, can I take a Tylenol?
SPEAKER_01 (54:03):
Yeah, when I when I talk to you by OBGYN, she was
like, No, no, you're fine.
That's fine.
You're fine.
SPEAKER_00 (54:08):
Yeah.
So I mean, I think that's well,and I think also to your point
though, some people saydifferent things.
They do.
You know, I have I have heardthat.
Um one of my clients, she hadone doctor said one thing,
another doctor said the otherthing.
And so I think it's reallyfinding the right doctor for
you, making sure you connectwith that person, um, and doing
(54:31):
your research and for sure, notbeing afraid to ask all of the
questions.
Like even if you think they'restupid, yeah, ask, ask, ask.
Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (54:39):
And I would, I think the last two things to end on I
think would be important to sayis if you are someone who's
already gone through postpartumand you had postpartum
depression, um, don't be afraidto share it, but also share it
in a way where we're talkingabout it as a spectrum.
(55:00):
Right.
We're not all gonna experiencethe same thing.
But because you did experienceit, letting somebody know that
I'm a safe person to have thisconversation with.
I'm willing to share mine.
So if you need to share yours,please come to me.
Yeah.
I mean, I had I I startedtalking about it openly and
(55:21):
talking about being on medicineopenly.
And I actually had a closefriend come to me and talk to
me, like, hey, I think I need todo this.
Yeah.
And we had that conversation.
And it was all because I waswilling to share it, but share
it on a spectrum perspective.
SPEAKER_00 (55:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (55:36):
This may not be how you experience it, but it was
how I did.
SPEAKER_00 (55:39):
Yeah.
And again, like even just on theshow, it's like we're not here
to, you know, we're not keyexperts and doctors and all of
these things.
We're here to share livedexperience.
Right.
What worked for us may not workfor you, you know.
So it's like always talk to yourhealthcare provider, but we're
here to help break the stigmasand just start that conversation
and um educate people on what wedo know for sure around suicide.
(56:03):
So thank you so much for beinghere, Jaclyn.
I appreciate you.
It's been, it's been the best.
Um, and for those of youlistening, I hope that this
helps.
If you know somebody that'sstruggling, send them this uh
podcast and tell them we'll seeyou next time.
If you're struggling, rememberhow you think is how you feel.
If your feelings feel heavy,start by shifting the thought.
(56:23):
You're not stuck, your brain canchange, so can your story.
I'm Jessica G.
This is the Justin Time Podcast,and I'll see you next time.
Until then, keep going.
Never give up.
And remember, the world isbetter with you in it, whether
you believe it or not.
To help reach others, pleaseshare this with your friends,
family, and don't forget tolike, subscribe, and donate.
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