August 22, 2024 • 50 mins
What happens when an artist's "unit" of work is rooted in "trouble"? Join us as we explore this fascinating concept through the insights of Amy Sillman, uncovered in an enlightening Art21 episode. We dive into the gripping narrative of how tension and contradiction can be both a hurdle and a muse, shaping the creative grammar that artists use to articulate their vision. By reflecting on Sillman's methodology and the wisdom of experienced artists, we uncover the power of understanding and defining our own unique artistic foundations.
Have you ever thought about the intimate relationship between an artist and their materials? Our journey continues as we traverse the dynamic landscape of artistic mediums, from the smell of fresh paint to the thrill of finding the perfect object in a thrift store. We emphasize the importance of experimentation, pushing boundaries, and feeling the materials in your hands. Like relationships tested through trials and imperfections, the artist's connection to their mediums evolves, leading to unexpected innovations and a renewed passion for creation.
Can embracing imperfections in your work actually propel you forward? We wrap up by reflecting on the significance of documentation and the evolution of one's artistic journey. Drawing inspiration from unconventional tools and the stories of transforming unsold pieces, we highlight the beauty of unpredictable art-making. By documenting progress and embracing both control and spontaneity, artists can continuously improve and grow. Balancing moments of struggle with bursts of inspiration, we stress the need to stay energized and committed, always pushing the boundaries of our creative potential.
Watch the Art21 video here: Amy Sillman Art 21
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@justmakeartpodcast @tynathanclark @nathanterborg
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
So, nathan, of course , about 30 minutes before we're
about to start this episode, Ihad an epiphany.
And so what did that make me do?
It made me sprint into my 180degree studio, cut a, cut, a
stretcher bars set of stretcherbars, put it together and
stretch a small canvas so that Icould put some clear primer on
(00:33):
it and ensure that it's dried bythe time that we stopped
recording.
So I'll do my best not to liftmy arms in the episode for
anybody watching video onYouTube or Spotify, because I
I'm soaked.
And now I'm in my office and Ihave the air conditioner turned
off so that we don't haveaudible noise, and so the heat
is starting to build, andbasically what I'm saying is I
(00:54):
just got myself into a lot oftrouble, and that really is
going to lead into an incrediblequote we have coming up.
I love this.
So when you and I talk aboutplanning episodes, we kind of go
back and forth, back and forth,back and forth, and I think
this is a great piggyback off ofthe learning episode we had on
the last one, because you and Iboth discovered an art 21
(01:15):
episode basically at the sametime, on the same day.
That made us go.
Oh my goodness, we have to talkabout Amy Sillman and that
episode.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Absolutely yeah.
And speaking of our previousepisode on being a student of
the game, this is one of the Iwould argue one of the easiest
ways to soak up a ton of wisdomaround credible artists, their
practice, the way that theythink about their work, which
we'll get into with this firstquote.
So let's just jump in, go aheadand hit us.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I used to always ask my students what is your unit?
You know, there's an atom,there's an inch, there's an hour
, there's a day, there's a hand,there's a year.
What is your base unit?
Because I'm assuming thateverybody's is totally different
and they would give me thesebeautiful answers that were
super concise, you know, likeone person would just say it's
(02:09):
one hour.
Whatever they said, I wouldtake it seriously and I thought,
like how do you build thelanguage out of those units?
Because everyone's kind ofmaking up a grammar for their
own work.
And what's your unit?
I don't know, I can't evenanswer the question.
I think my unit is trouble.
You go to trouble, then you getout of trouble, then you get
(02:31):
back in trouble.
So trouble or not trouble,getting to it and getting away
from it and getting from onetrouble to the other.
Trouble is the unit.
I'm always pretty much lookingfor something that contradicts
the layer that came before,creating a certain kind of
tension and creating somethingthat feels like it sort of holds
(02:54):
together and it's sort offalling apart at the same time
and creating something.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
So that's Amy Sillman , an incredible artist, educator
, printmaker, drawer, has beenaround New York for a very, very
long time as an educator.
Right, she's talking about howshe always presents these ideas
to her students and asks themwell, what's your unit?
And I think, try to get them toreally focus on something, some
(03:22):
reason why they're creatingwhere they're creating, from
what they're trying to say, andkind of packaging that all
together in something.
And obviously she's got a lotof little broad answers.
But as a great educator, youare always learning from your
students and the things theytell you, which I think is why
she's asking that question,because it's making her dig into
(03:42):
the answers and that's causingher, as somebody who's
continuing to educate herself,to grow in her work and how she
thinks about things.
And I love how the interviewersays well, what's your unit, amy
?
And she goes I don't know.
And then she goes.
I know it's trouble and that tome not an epiphany or highly
(04:03):
prophetic, but it went.
Yep, I absolutely am rightthere with her trouble.
I freaking love that as a unit.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yes, there's two parts of this quote, ty, that I
think are really interesting toexamine.
One is the whole idea that shebegins with of just creating a
grammar for your own work.
A grammar for your own work, Imean.
I think as artists, we're alltrying to find a way to I don't
want to say standardized, buthave a framework for how we
think about the work that we'redoing, and I think that's a very
(04:35):
practical way to approach theprocess of making work, because
we do have a lot ofconversations with ourself
around what am I doing here,what's my approach?
Sort of these.
If, then scenarios of if I getin trouble, when I create
trouble for myself, then I dot,dot, dot, and so I just really
like that idea in general,setting aside for the moment the
(04:57):
idea of trouble, but just theidea of really thinking about
for each of us as artists, ascreatives, what is our own
grammar for our own work, how dowe think about our work?
And I would say again, justpiggybacking on our last episode
, I think this is one of thegreatest benefits of doing
things like this, and by likethis I mean watching and
(05:20):
listening to other artists,phenomenal artists like Amy, who
have been doing it for quitesome time, hearing how the
language they use when theythink about art in general and
their work specifically.
I don't know about you, but Ihave a ton of moments, even just
in this, whatever, this is11-minute video that everybody
(05:41):
needs to watch for sure.
Maybe pause this and go listento it, watch it or wait till
after the episode, butdefinitely spend some time with
it.
But this and many others likeit.
I have so many moments wherejust like, oh yeah, that's it,
right, that's yes, that's how Ithink about it, and much like
(06:03):
the same way that when we talkabout, I think about it.
And much like the same way thatwhen we talk about how we are
going to be influenced by thework that we like the best, the
work that we're consuming, howimportant it is and you talk
about this all the time theimportance of just looking at a
lot of art.
I think this is a very similaridea, where the benefits of
listening to a lot of artiststalk about how they think about
(06:24):
their work is incrediblyvaluable, because it gives us
additional language to processand think about our own practice
.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Well, and that's one of the things that we're we hear
from artists all the time intheir studios, whether it's
beginning, emerging, whateverlevel of art you're at is oh my
gosh, I just want to feel morefreedom in the studio.
I want to feel less burden tofinish a piece or less burden to
create something new, or I justwant to go in there with like
this freedom and just make stuffand not feel pressure to have
to kind of perform for myself.
(06:53):
And I think I understood this.
But hearing her say it, likeyou say, listening to other
artists like helps you so much,because I went, hadn't even
thought about the fact that whenshe said so, trouble or not
trouble, getting to it andgetting away from it, and
getting from one trouble to theother, like that's what she's
always doing hitting the trouble, finding another one, searching
(07:15):
.
But for me I was like, oh mygosh.
Yeah, I'm always trying toembrace new challenges in my
work and I really am searchingfor uncertainty and trouble so
that I can create more troubleout of it.
Cause what does that do?
It kind of gives me a littlebit of freedom to kind of
breathe and not feel burdened bytrying to force something to
work and that's why I've chosencertain ways of creating through
(07:39):
different types of forms andtools and things which we'll
talk about later today.
Because I want that uncertainty, I want new trouble, because
maybe I can create a brand newidea out of that bit of trouble
that ends up existing on thecanvas and that only comes from
perspective True.
Yes.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
And perspective comes from paying attention.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yes, I had a moment recently where I was looking
back at a piece and a couple ofmoments that I really really
liked, and then I was thinkingabout how those came to be.
And then I remember the daythat that happened and feeling
like I was completely lost right, that I had no compass or true
(08:19):
north around the work or how itwas developing.
And so when I talk aboutperspective, really what I'm
talking about is realizing thatwe can use our past experiences
to coach our current and futureselves in the moment, Meaning
that and I remind myself of thisconstantly, I'm sure you do as
well which is when we feel likewe're in trouble in the moment,
(08:42):
when we feel like something'snot working, it's like, oh yeah,
well, that's okay.
It's okay to feel that waybecause this what's happening
right now could producesomething in the future that
really does work, that reallydoes Right.
So not getting too connected tohow we feel, you know, in the
moment.
We've talked about this before,but I think it's really
(09:02):
important to realize that.
I'll just keep this in firstperson, because I'm not sure if
this is universal or not, but,like I remind myself all the
time, how I feel in the momentwhile I'm creating is not
indicative of how good thework's going to be or how useful
you know those, those marks orlayers or whatever it is you
know might be, and that and thatgoes in both directions, right.
(09:23):
There's days when I'm just, youknow, had had eight hours of
sleep.
It's 72 degrees outside, thesun is shining.
I'm fully caffeinated, I'm justlike hell.
Yeah, I'm killing it.
Right, well, yeah, you'd lovethat right now, wouldn't you?
Um and uh, you know you comeback the next day or you'll go.
Oh, that actually wasn't thatgood.
I was just feeling good andhaving a good day.
But the opposite is also true,right, there's days when I feel
(09:45):
like crap, I'm down, I'm tired,I, you know whatever.
Fill in the blank with whateverlittle thing I might be whining
about on that particular day orfeeling sorry for me.
But, like you know, look backand be like oh okay, that wasn't
like a fun, enjoyable day, youknow, in the studio, but it did
produce work that I'm actuallyreally excited about.
So not confusing how we feelwith how productive not to use
(10:08):
that term or misuse that termbut how useful that time in the
studio could be.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah, and trouble right is a challenge with your
work or your medium, right, itcould be a mental challenge,
could be a physical medium ortechnique challenge medium,
right, it could be a mentalchallenge, it could be a
physical medium or techniquechallenge.
It's mistakes that mess up thatthing that you're really trying
to do and it's just not comingout the way you see it.
In your head it's coming outcompletely opposite and also
contradictions.
(10:35):
Oh, I meant to do that andsomething else happened
completely and really right.
What we talked about lastepisode, that artist who's
continuing to educate and learnall of that is going to feed in
right and be a catalyst forchange and evolution and new
ideas through those moments oftrouble.
I embrace those so much and I'malways teaching artists and
(10:57):
telling artists to embrace thosethings right Because, like you
said, you either come to thestudio on fire or you come worn
out.
You either create somethingreally really crappy one day and
something really strong thatmoves another day, and those can
completely happen in oppositeinstances and things.
And I think just being able tofeel a little bit more alive in
(11:20):
freedom for our growth and forthe expectations of what we may
be doing is just embracing whatshe's saying, just embracing
that, letting it happen, lettingit flow, but growing each step
of the way, which I know issomething we're always
encouraging.
When you walk away from thestudio, no matter where it is,
walk away knowing you grew today, yeah, even if the day sucked
(11:43):
and it was horrible andeverything looked like shit, you
can walk away knowing I ambetter than I was when I got
into the studio, and I thinkthat's what embracing the
trouble really, really is.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Just that idea of marks were made, layers were
added or subtracted, as we'lltalk about in a little bit here.
But something happened and youtalk about that word.
You know tension, the tensionthat's created in the work
itself, the tension that weexperience internally, and the
way that that gets resolved isinteresting.
It does lead to growth ofourselves and the work as a
(12:17):
whole, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Part of doing improvisational work is pitting
yourself against the materialsand the resistance that they
offer and trying to figure outhow to make something happen
where you're both working withthe materials and also very much
working against them andquestioning them.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, so you know, I love this one.
Yes For a lot of reasons, yep,working with so many different
types of materials.
That's one of the reasons whyI'm drawn to always looking for
the next thing that I'm going touse in my work is because I
love working with material thathas already lived a life, or
lives as what it was intended tobe.
(12:59):
For anyone not familiar with mywork, I use a lot of repurposed
material that I that I find andthen alter in in a variety of
different ways, but I reallythink it doesn't matter what.
Whatever you're using as your,as your, mediums of choice.
I think about it a lot as arelationship between myself and
the material, and it is it'sit's a push and a pull.
(13:23):
It's sometimes we're workinghand in hand and we myself and
the materials have the same ideaabout where it's supposed to go
, and other times, more often,if I'm being honest, it's very
much a contentious relationshipfor quite some time.
You know there is a what.
What do you have to?
(13:44):
What do you material have tosay?
How can we discover togetherwhat there is here, you know?
And so when she talks abouttrying to figure out how to make
something happen, where you'reboth working with the materials
and very much working againstthem and questioning them.
Back to that idea of askingquestions.
You know, what could you be,what?
What were you questions?
(14:04):
What could you be, what wereyou before, what could you be in
the future and how could therelationship that we have in the
process of trying to makesomething here, what could that
reveal about the material itself?
And help me say what I'm tryingto say as a whole?
Overall, right, but it's aconversation, it's a back and
forth, it's absolutely adialogue.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Well, and there's 100% resistance with material,
because material can only do asmuch as it can do.
Yeah, right, so there aremoments where you are going to
take paint medium, whatever asfar as it can go and it can't go
any further.
Whatever as far as it can goand it can't go any further.
Yeah, that's why I'm alwaysencouraging other artists Try
(14:48):
everything, try it all.
If you primarily work in paint,put the paint in your hands and
feel the difference betweenevery type of paint.
What does a pasto feel like?
What does an oil paint feellike?
What does acrylic, what does amore expensive acrylic feel like
?
What does a student acrylicpaint feel like?
What does a acrylic feel like?
(15:10):
What does a student acrylicpaint feel like?
What does a gel feel like?
What does molding paste feellike?
Feel it, touch it, know it.
That way, you kind of know howthat material may respond on
canvas and what it may or maynot be able to do when you start
to create with it.
Now, on the other hand, withsomebody who's mixed media, it's
let's go as far as we can go,right, let's find every type of
material we can find at HomeDepot, at the art store in the
backyard, at the dump, in thetrash can and let's play, play,
(15:32):
play, play, because the more youhave learned and tried, the
more you have in your arsenal topossibly solve a problem or
some trouble.
When you get there, it may ariseand go.
You know what Glad I messedwith cement a few months ago
because cement would work.
Perfect for what I really amtrying to get out of this
acrylic paint with molding paste, and it just doesn't have the
(15:55):
right feel or texture to me.
So I think for me it's reallybeing responsive and being able
to adapt during your processesand think through.
Just like she says, you have towork with the material, but
you're also working against it,because oftentimes we're trying
to do more than the materialwill allow us to do.
So we have to go, try newthings and new ideas, and that's
(16:18):
probably for you and I, one ofthe most exciting parts of being
an artist.
Something you and I love to domore than anything is just keep
trying new stuff.
It's the best.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
It's the best we were .
The family was.
We were in the city yesterdayfor our youngest birthday.
She loves thrifting, so we'rewalking downtown and anyway I
saw what I think was probablysome type of a filter.
I don't know what itsapplication was.
It was just sitting next tothis trash can and I kind of
stopped and I looked.
(16:50):
My wife and both daughters werelike keep, no, no, Dad, keep
going.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Please keep walking.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
A lot like I have to say to Leo you know, if we're
walking and he's sniffing aroundsomething that I don't want him
to start eating, like keepgoing.
No, but it's just that it thatan insatiable curiosity like
what would happen.
You know, when I slice that up,when I whatever heated it up,
carved it, whatever, manipulateit in some way.
But you know, when you weretalking to, I was thinking about
, like in a lot of ways, therelationship that we have with,
(17:18):
with our mediums, with our, withour material.
It's a lot like therelationships that we have with
other people in that thestrongest bonds that we have I
mean, if you think about thepeople that you're, whatever the
five people you're closest tofriends, family, partners,
whatever it might be thoserelationships are strong because
they've been tested, because wehave experienced things
(17:42):
together that were imperfect,that were outside the lines,
that were not just an averageday.
That's how we learn who we areindividually and who we are
together in terms of ourrelationship.
And so, when it comes tomaterials, I'm a big fan of
encouraging everybody to notjust use material, but misuse
(18:03):
material To your point get it inyour material, but misuse
material to your point, like,absolutely get it in your hands,
get it in your fingernails,right Like, see what happens
when you, when you do thingsthat are, you know, not written
on the, on the, on the package,the back of the box, just to you
never know, just just to pushit right, see how far you know
you can put.
You can always come back, youcan always come back to like you
know you can put.
(18:23):
You can always come back, youcan always come back to, like
you know, back inside the lines,back for its intended purpose.
And again, I don't know howmuch of this applies to what
everyone's you know doing or not, but I think that there's a
version of this that is usefulfor, you know, anyone who's
trying to explore, you know, newterritory.
Part of the video that we'retalking about here, you know,
she talks about how she doeshave a few brushes in her studio
(18:44):
, but most of what she uses are,you know, not traditional
materials.
You know what I'm saying and Iactually I would love to hear
you talk about that, because Iactually, you know, tell the
story about how, when, when didyou start using cardboard and
kind of what led to that.
I think that would be.
This would be a good sort ofyou know little use case.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
I think I've always fought with materials because I
want I've always wanted anunexpected thing to come out,
which is why, after studying alot of the more modern Japanese
calligraphists who would havethese brushes tied to pulleys,
that the brushes were like 10feet tall with a three or four
foot actual hair and brush tip,they dip an ink and they'd run
(19:22):
it across this pulley on thismassive piece of paper in a
studio, and I would go okay,they have control with their
body and gesture, but they don'tknow how the pulley is going to
swing right or left and theirmovement, how fast they're going
, and also there's ink drippingoff other parts of the brushes
while they're moving.
And then when you'd look atthat 20-foot piece at the end,
(19:43):
it was perfectly imperfect and Ithink I went that's what I want
in my work.
So I started using really longbrushes and things with a lack
of control, so that I'm gettingsome imperfections out of the
things I'm doing.
Cardboard back this is, I think, 2018, maybe 2019 from a solo
(20:05):
show that didn't sell any workin North Carolina and all the
work came back and all the boxesand I cut up all the boxes to
throw them out and I went.
I'm going to make somecardboard paintings.
So I just started cutting themout and building all these
cardboard canvases and stackingcardboard and ripping it and
painting on it and I didn't likehow one looks, so I pulled it
off and it had.
(20:26):
I was using paint to glue itand it left a mark and and I
went, huh, I wonder what thatwould do if I started doing that
as transfer on pieces.
So I had a couple pieces I wasworking on and so I started just
kind of painting on cardboardand then pressing it down and
pulling off as a transfer, and Iwas doing it with other things
(20:46):
and I went I kind of like thatidea.
I need to think more about thatFast forward.
That's a major part of my actualcreating, and creation today is
using material that's not anart material, using it in a way
that it's never really supposedto be used for and it's creating
something that I can't control.
(21:07):
I can control it up to a point,yeah, but as I pull it off,
there's going to be a surprisesomewhere in there, and that for
me has just become.
I love that.
It creates so much trouble forme and it's so freaking fun,
that surprise, and so, really,that tension exists now between
using a material that you don'treally know how it's going to
(21:27):
work every time.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
And I don't know.
It's fun, I love it.
It's so fun and it's a reallygood testament to the importance
and the value of leaving spacein our practice to be surprised
and to chase those surprisesdown, you know again, like you
know, I think, one of the, I hada studio visit earlier this
week with about half a dozenartists who came by.
(21:50):
They were part of a littlecoven little group.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, one of my current mentees in my program.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
That's exactly right, yes, and so they came by and we
were having an interestingconversation.
But one of the things that cameup is I believe the question
was something related to youknow, how do you make sure that
trying different things doesn't,you know, ruin a piece?
And I said I'm always happy toruin a piece, I'm not happy, I'm
(22:20):
always okay with ruining apiece.
Yep, because I have thatabiding belief that it is in
service to pushing the workforward.
So I think that, to your point,when something happened, when
one of those surprises happen,and maybe you chase it down on
what you're working on at thatmoment Maybe not, but capturing
that and doing something with it, starting other little studies
(22:43):
or other little things on theside, but doing it I think it's
close.
Now, I don't know, banking ideasis valuable.
But again, back to like, backto my idea of, or my point of,
not worrying about ruining thepiece or ruining the timeline
that I had in mind for finishingthe piece that I was working on
.
I'm not going to forget or if Idid, it probably was worth
(23:05):
forgetting.
Anyway I'm not going to likelose track of where I was at on
that.
I can look at it and see likehere's, here's, what's next.
But chasing down those littlediscoveries, I think, is so, so
valuable, because we just neverknow which one is going to
become the next big thing thatwe're going to be able to mine
for years and entire bodies ofwork.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah, well, and there's.
That's the balance betweencontrol and spontaneity.
Yep, right, if you'recompletely trying to control
your work, it's going to bereally, really frustrating,
because then you're just tryingto make a finished piece all the
time and it just doesn't workthat way all the time.
Right.
But you want to balance thatspontaneity of trying new things
with things that have beenworking and things that have
really been growing, and keepingthose in while you're adding
(23:48):
those new ideas and then thosenew things into it.
And, like you said, you'regoing to walk away at the end of
the day and know that you justlearned so much more.
And all artists discoveryyou're going to be discovering
something that's leading to thenext jump and the next big thing
.
And I love let's listen toanother quote by Amy, cause
she's really going to go intothese things pretty incredibly.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
You know it's not perfect.
It shows it scrape downs and itshows its revision and it shows
its finickiness, but it alsoshows its openness and this
maybe vain attempt to like pushfurther or dig deeper.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Oh, nathan, push further or dig deeper.
Wow, that I mean.
Come on, and I love that shesays this may be a vain attempt.
I mean it's like to pushfurther or dig deeper, showing
the imperfections and allowingthem to be seen as a form of
(24:48):
openness.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
What you just pointed out, like the acknowledgement
that it may be a vain attempt, Ithink is actually really,
really important.
Just sitting in that place oflike this may not work.
If we were putting odds on it,it probably won't, but it might,
but it might.
And even if it doesn't, it'sgoing to lead to something else.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Well and I think too, it's like when she's talking
about this, she's talking aboutshowing the process in the final
piece yeah, and that final workthat's on the gallery wall,
that's up there, andacknowledging that there's
mistakes in it.
It's not a perfect piece.
There aren't just absoluteperfect shininess or corners or
things.
She's allowing theimperfections to also speak for
(25:33):
themselves, which is something Iabsolutely embrace in my work
as well, and early on I knowI've talked about this before I
used to circle and put littlearrows on mess ups and scripts
and I'd put oops or a dumbpencil mark or little things
like that, just to kind of bevain and sarcasm for myself of
acknowledging I made mistakesbut actually really like this.
(25:55):
I might even like this betterthan the other pieces that I
really tried to control in thatpainting.
Right, well, how do you, how doyou feel about revision?
Because part of this, too, istalking about.
She says it shows its revisionsand shows its finickiness, you
know, and she's working over andworking over and working over
(26:16):
and constantly taking away andbuilding upon and taking it away
.
There's construction andthere's deconstruction of the
piece, and I know you and I bothdo some construction and
deconstruction within our work,and so I don't know if I
consider my deconstructionrevision.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Oh I, absolutely do Okay, it's probably my favorite
part, like.
So.
It's funny because when theearlier quote that we talked
about as far as what's your unit, I think the first thing that
came to mind for me wasexcavation, or extraction, which
(26:57):
is the removal, which is thescraping down.
Right like I, I've thought alot about the moments.
I had one earlier this weekwhere I finally got to it is
it's like, it's like my rewardfor the work that it takes to
build up different layers ofdifferent material, which can
also be fun but is also morejust like the sort of like task
oriented work part of theprocess for me.
(27:17):
But when I get to burn, carve,scrape, sand, when I get to pull
those things off with a generalidea about what's going to be
revealed, but nothing resemblingactual knowledge or certainty,
that's what I create, that'swhat I look forward to.
So when I hear the word revision, I think about addition and
(27:42):
subtraction.
That's one of the things that Ilove about working
three-dimensionally, or at leastworking on services, where I
have in most cases at least halfan inch, if not more than that,
to carve back down into or morematerial to put on top.
But it's just that process ofdiscovery, that process of
excavation of what's under here.
(28:03):
I've got an idea because I putit there, but I have no idea how
it's going to express itselfwhen those layers are removed
and when that's carved down.
I don't know if I answered yourquestion.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
But is that revising?
Is that revising the piece oris that continually?
Even though you'redeconstructing, you're still
building the piece.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah, I kind of reject that word, revision in
general, because revision to me,when I think about revision, I
think about all right, I've gota very specific intended outcome
here.
I'm revising an essay where I'mnot communicating my ideas
effectively, so I need to revisethe way that I'm, because I
have an intended message or idea.
(28:43):
You know that I'm attempting tocommunicate and the previous
revision wasn't doing the jobright.
So I've got to revise what I'vegot to better communicate
something in particular with thedesired outcome in mind, and
that's not.
You know, that's, that's not myprocess.
My my well, and that's what Iwas getting, and that's what I
was getting at.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
is that I don't.
I don't see myself as arevisionist when it comes to my
work, right, and that's.
That's a beauty of art.
We're all different in the waywe make things.
Right?
Amy is saying she revises andrebuilds and then she goes.
I want to clean that up somemore.
I want to take this to adifferent spot.
Whereas I am like I'll get to apoint where I feel like the
work is done and if I don't likeit, I don't go fix it.
(29:23):
I paint over it and I startover yeah, completely gone, and
the canvas is flipped over andit's something completely new.
So that but that's my process,and I'm not saying either is
right or wrong, because I knowthere are plenty of.
I have plenty of friends who areincredible painters and they
revise and revise, and revise,you know, and then all of a
(29:46):
sudden, when they really feelstrong about okay, I'm done
working on it and it's in itsfinished state for me, if I
don't like it, it's gone, itdoes not get revised, it does
not get fixed, it doesn't getanything addition, it didn't
work, it's time to move on tothe next thing.
But that's just me personally,and there is that.
That's that paradox that she'stalking about too right, there's
(30:08):
a paradox between striving forperfection while embracing
imperfection as well.
There's so many ways to try andthink through time with our
work when we're thinking aboutthis imperfection, the
perfection building, discovering, excavating all these things,
and really the only way toreally show us how we have grown
(30:31):
, how we have embraced, how wehave taken things from one place
to the next, right on thatjourney, that discovery, that
map making of our career, isreally to create a big stock of
documentation of what we'redoing, where it came from and
that journey that it went on,and I think Amy has something
(30:51):
really good to say about that.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
I always take photographs in my studio, like
with my phone, and just seemyself at night, like what the
sort of progression or animationis.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
So there's really for such a simple thing, right,
taking photographs in the studiowith the phone and looking at
them at night to see herprogression, whatever.
It's such a simple thing, but Ithink it's so valuably
important, and I have.
I myself, after I read AustinKleon's book Show your Work,
started documenting everything Ido and really as a way to
(31:25):
create kind of an encyclopediaby year of my progress, my
journey, techniques, things I'vetried, things I played with,
and for me to just go back andlook at how time has truly
affected the development of mywork and its things and how you
(31:46):
can see the narratives of life.
Right, because that's whatbeing a contemporary painter is
You're showing now, right,you're creating now and you're
showing now and today, and soI'm able to go back and go oh,
wow, yeah, 2014.
No more, no wonder I was makingmy work like that.
These things were happening,life was this way, the world was
this way and I hadn't knownthese things yet.
(32:07):
Oh my gosh, 2018.
Look at that work, look at theway that it grew, look at the
things I started doing.
And I always tell any of myartists in my program document
everything, even if you're notgoing to share it.
I don't care if you don't shareit on Instagram.
I don't care if you don't haveaccounts that you're sharing
stuff all the time.
Do it for yourself.
Do it for Our last episodelearn, be educated.
(32:30):
You need to be doing the samething with your own work that
you're doing with all theseother artists that you admire's
work as well.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Absolutely.
That was another part of theconversation with the studio
visitor this week was, I forgetsomebody had asked me if, you
know, recording things or havingthe phone on the tripod was
distracting or if it, you know,pulled me out of flow, and I
said not really just because I'mused to it.
Now I maybe did a little bit atfirst, but with the goal in
(33:01):
mind of pushing the work as farpossible, as quickly as possible
.
I want to accelerate mylearning curve, and so I know
that even if I'm not going toshare it which I often don't I
mean I do share some, but thatreally is not my primary
motivation for recording thesethings.
I watch back clips all the timeespecially when it's an in the
(33:24):
moment free flowing accident orintuitive thing like that.
Beautiful mistake, the beautifulmistake, and then you go back
and look at something thatyou're like well, that's that.
Actually, that's the, that'sthe strongest moment of this
entire piece.
How did I do?
How did I do that?
I'm not one that takes notes,necessarily.
I'm not.
That's not, that's not uh, uh.
(33:46):
About the work itself, I shouldsay or, or in the moment I'm
not writing recipes or thingslike that, but absolutely, you
know, there's, there's enough inthose video clips to be able to
remember like, oh yeah, that'sthe day that it was raining and
because it was raining, itimpacted the way that the
whatever would receive the flameand the marks that were made as
a result, or whatever it mightbe.
(34:07):
So that is the value, for sure,of documenting your process.
I don't know, I don't dodigital art much at all, but
once in a while I'll.
I'll open up a procreate on theiPad if I'm on a plane and just
kind of mess around, butthere's a feature on there where
you can just automaticallyrecords, yeah, a time lapse,
right yeah.
It's so fun to watch.
It's so fun Cause it's causeit's right there.
(34:36):
You're like, oh yeah, and itback.
But there's some interestingthings that can be observed and
learned about one's process indoing that.
So, whether it's withphotographs or video, or maybe
you are somebody who reallywants to take notes, but that's
so, so valuable, I think, to aperson's progression
artistically.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Well, and if you watch the Art in 21 episode,
which I suggest everybody does,we'll put the link in everything
.
What Amy did and I don't knowif this was on purpose or not or
because she does photographeverything, but she was able to
do that show where she showedthe actual progress from the
first layer to the last layer ofa painting in photographs in
(35:12):
prints Pretty freaking cool.
Layer of a painting inphotographs in prints Pretty
freaking cool.
Like I thought and I don't knowif she was just going through
her stuff one day, because shedocuments everything that much
that she went well, that'd be abadass show.
Yeah, I'm going to takepictures of the entire journey
of one painting and they're allright, they were good
photographs.
It wasn't, like you know,crooked yellow light studio
(35:33):
photographs are all really welldone, so she can make prints of
it and it showed from one layerto the next and they created
this easel system that put allof those prints across the
entire room in the middle.
So you, I mean that was that'samazing, that's breakthrough,
right.
That's that experimentation anddoing something.
She's doing something that'stech related within the work,
(35:53):
not with the purpose of creatingwork from that, but then
because she's experimenting anddoing things.
That then got involved.
It became a work of art, yeah,so you never know.
That's the thing, right?
That's why we're alwaysencouraging you all play, try,
do everything.
If you have different loves andthings you want to do, mess
around, see what happens.
Who knows what could come fromit?
I mean, this was a whole showfor her.
(36:15):
Those prints from thosephotographs of a painting taken
with her iPhone.
It all became a series andbecame an incredible show, and I
love that.
That's just beautiful, and thisis why we added this to this
episode.
This quote from Amy was takepictures of your stuff, capture
what you're doing for yourself.
Yeah, we want you to beeducated.
(36:38):
We want you to understand yourwork in a really, really great
way so you can talk about it andbe confident talking about it.
Uh, in arenas where you mayhave the opportunity to discuss
and talk about your work,studying your own work, taking
pictures, videos, whatever youwant to do document it so that
you have it and so that you canlearn more about your process
and how you're doing things, andit just becomes second nature
(37:00):
in your head.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Yeah, so Ty, I'd like to close with the quote that
might just have excited me themost of this whole video so good
.
Let's just play it, all right.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
And the next thing depends on the thing play it
slippage between control andfinesse and form and wanting it
(37:37):
to be good and constantlyadjusting things and trying to
make it better, and between justlike first thought, best
thought, like let it all hangout, like do a thing.
See what you're surprised bythat tension is the tension of
me making my work so, yeah, sogood, that's so good.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
It's beautiful.
It's beautiful again, just forthe whatever the fifth time of
this episode.
Like listening to other artistswho, I mean, she has been
thinking about her work for 60years, maybe more, I don't know
but listening to people who havehad the time to really study
their own work and understand itand have the language for what
(38:19):
it's like for them.
Again, it's so, so importantbecause, like, oh yeah, like I
mentioned earlier in the episode, that's it.
That's how I think about it.
That's oh yeah, yeah, that'swhat it is right, because we
need to make.
It's one of those things thatyou probably understood
intuitively or kind of had ageneral sense of, but to
actually put precise language toit, I think, is so, so valuable
.
So, yeah, the next thingdepends on the thing before it.
(38:42):
You know, dealing with mistakes.
Let's talk about this wholeidea of dealing with regret,
because I think that's such animportant thing that every one
of us has.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Sorry, f-bomb almost came out, so we almost got an
explicit rating because I almostdropped an F-bomb right there.
Oh the regret.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Yeah, it's real right , I mean, and it's something
that.
So, again, we think about thework, what are we trying to say
with the work?
What are we trying to dovisually?
But we also think about theprocess of making the work and
anticipating how we're going tofeel, not if, but when certain
things happen.
(39:21):
And one of the things that isgoing to happen in everybody's
studio practice is that momentof regret of ah F.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Oh God, no, let me do that again.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Yeah, what's your thought process when you, when
you heard that?
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Well, when I, when I was watching it for the
umpteenth time I'm such a nerdand I'm such a visual person
that and I've watched so many ofthese videos and I've written a
few storyboards of creatingones for other artists and
things that kind of follow thatpattern of art 21.
I saw me walking in from aroundthe corner with a cappuccino to
hand to her to sit down and gogod, let's freaking dive in more
(40:01):
yeah let's dive in more to thattill, you know, because, oh it,
oh, regret, golly, the killerof dreams in the artist's mind
sometimes, and it's and I'm nottalking about just art your art
journey outside of the studio,I'm talking about in the studio.
Yeah, that it always happens tome at the end of the body of
work, like I'll create a body ofwork for an exhibition, a show
(40:24):
or just for myself, where I'mgoing with new ideas and I'll
create it's usually between 15and 35, 40 paintings when I
create a body of work and I'llstart so strong in my head yes,
okay, yeah, I'm resolving thesequestions and I'm answering
these problems and I'm gettinginto trouble and I'm finesse,
and then all of a sudden I dothe last three and I go those
(40:46):
are the ones F me.
I got 30 paintings.
Now that should have been thosethree.
Can I—oh God, no, let me dothat again.
It happens to me every time andI think, once I got comfortable
with realizing, the next thingdepends on the thing before it.
(41:11):
Yeah, like she says, I went.
No, I had to do those 30.
Those 30 got me to these threewhich are leading to the next 20
or the next 30.
If I hadn't have gone throughthose, that whole process of
making all that work and gettingto these last ones, I wouldn't
(41:31):
have had myself confidentlysaying the next thing is now
ready and it just led me there.
That's my process, that's how Igo through working in the
studio and fighting thatresistance and fighting regret
is I know this is taking me tothat next thing because it
flushed itself out and all thosethings and it's now.
(41:53):
It's the train reaction, it's achain reaction.
Each of those moments is just achain reaction to the next
artistic decision I'm going tomake in the next body of work.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
And insert your favorite cliche here trust the
process.
But just knowing that, like, Ithink that there's, that it's
back to that idea of perspectivewhere it's a little bit like
technology.
As you were talking, I wasthinking about how you know,
when you're talking aboutcreating that body of work and
not getting to the thing untilthe very end, I think the
perspective that comes fromaccepting that I don't yet have
(42:25):
a way to resolve this particularchallenge that I'm encountering
with the work.
But it's like technology, youknow, it's like there are there
are certainly thing, or medicine, for example where it's like
it's known that the things thatare needed to solve this
particular problem they kind ofexist but they're not quite
refined enough to use for thisparticular application, whatever
(42:46):
it might or whatever it mightbe.
But it will exist, it willdevelop over time.
We will get to a point wherethat will be there and so just
accepting that, you know I don't, I don't have, I don't know
about you, but I've got a numberof pieces that have just been
like I pulled one of them.
(43:07):
Now have a thing, I'll be realspecific.
This piece I just didn't havewhat I needed to really resolve
it in a way that made sense andsince starting it, I mean this
one's just been kind of hangingout in the maybe pile for a
couple of years.
I now know, because I startedworking with metal I'm like, oh
(43:28):
yeah, now I've got it, now Ihave the language, now I have
the thing to do it.
The other big thing from thatquote that, again, we've talked
about so many times this is thevalue of listening to and
reading autobiographies.
Listening to other artists talk, it's not just you reading
autobiographies.
Listening to other artists talk, it's not just you.
(43:48):
Even someone like Amy, who'sdone the work that she has the
body of work tremendous stillhas those moments.
So it's not necessarily goingto make those moments of regret
or any better.
It's still going to suck inthat moment, but having the
perspective of like, oh, this ispart of it, this is part of the
(44:10):
path that I'm on, this is partof the journey that I've chosen
to be on, and everybodyexperiences this a lot and will
continue to, for sure, for theduration of the time that we get
a chance to keep making stuff.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Well, and she says it right here so on the big level
and on the little level and onevery level in between, yeah,
how do you interpret that I hada couple of different big level,
little level.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
How do you read that?
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Yeah, I mean because she says the slippage between
control and finesse and form andwanting to be good yeah,
wanting it to be good, right,and constantly to be good yeah,
wanting it to be good, right,and constantly adjusting things
to make it better.
So, on the big level, the Ithink it's done, it's ready to
go to the tate.
We'll use places that she'sshown, for example whitney, the
tate moma, the biggest places.
(44:57):
Okay, on the big level, it'sgood.
Yeah, I'm right, it's, it'sgood and it's ready to go out.
I can send that to theexhibition at the Whitney, I can
send it to this Biennale withthis body of work.
But then, on the little level,is well, is it for just
something I'm making?
To get me to the next thing, isit just the piece that's not
(45:17):
going to leave the studio?
I think that's a big level, butin the grand terms of the art
world and where Amy is, that's asmaller level than sending it
out to the Whitney or the Tateor to a Biennale or something.
And then every level in between, that's maybe a gallery, maybe
an art dealer, maybe whatever.
(45:37):
So it's like there's controland finesse and you want it to
be good and you're constantlyadjusting things whether that's
in that piece or the next pieceor the next piece to improve it
so that it's able to be on allthose levels and you can go okay
, I'm okay with it on all thoselevels.
That's at least how I interpretit.
No, I like that a lot.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
That's the other thing too.
Ty is like this.
What I'm about to share, it'snot an antidote for regret, but
it is a treatment for it.
And the treatment for regret isback to the value of
documenting our process, knowingthat if we ruin a piece or if
we cover something up that wasmagical, that we want to try to
(46:17):
get back again.
I think that's the value ofdocumenting our process Because,
while we'll never be able tonecessarily create exactly the
same thing I don't know aboutyou, I probably wouldn't want to
anyway do the exact same thingbut there's oftentimes a mark, a
gesture, a technique, a texture, fill in the blank, where,
(46:38):
because I'll just talk about myown experience, because I've got
the video that I can go andwatch back, I can recreate the
conditions that led to that,sure, and then I can just say,
all right, I'm going, I'm goingall in on this particular thing
and I do it all the time, whichwas studies like I'll have okay,
let's do eight differentversions of this.
(46:59):
That's actually where I willtake a little bit of notes.
I'll write in a post-it notewhat I did, the timing, the
amount, the level of pressure,the tools, you know, whatever
all the variables that that Imight be be tweaking, but we can
recreate the conditions thatled to that thing and with
enough experimentation thathappy accident can then be
integrated into our visuallanguage.
(47:20):
Going forward it can become athing right that we can get back
to a point where we canrecreate that particular thing
over and over again and it justbecomes part of our overall
toolbox that we can pull from asneeded for different work going
forward.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
I think that's a great point, nathan, because we
want to grow, we want to evolve,we want to create new work, we
want to be in this journey wherewe're just constantly
discovering new ideas and things, but it doesn't mean that we
completely abandon certain ideasand certain things that really
worked for us last year, fiveyears ago, 10 years ago even.
(47:58):
You know, because they're partof you and you don't want to be
creating the same exactpaintings you were making 20
years ago.
Hopefully, you've grown andyou're creating new work, but I
did.
I just did this.
Last month I went through and Iwas going through all my hard
drives and I was organizingthings by year and making sure
all the videos were in place andeach folder was labeled by the
(48:21):
painting for the video that Itook.
And you know all that stuffBecause I have folders for
videos, I have folders forphotos, and then I have them all
separated by year 2014, 2015,20.
And then I have video photo andI was just making sure
everything.
But then I got caught andlooking at the work and going,
oh, I totally forgot about thatlittle thing and, man, I really
(48:45):
think that was a great idea Moveit into the folder of things to
think about folder and Istarted moving all these old
paintings and old ideas in there, forgot about that texture,
forgot about putting that inthere.
I forgot about those things andI went God those were.
Why did I abandon that?
Well, I was growing, I wasmoving and trying new things.
(49:05):
It doesn't mean we don'treintroduce old techniques and
older things that have workedfor us before and by documenting
you have the ability to knowand remember and revisiting them
, armed with all of the newknowledge, new techniques, new
information.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
Who knows where that absolutely from?
There, because of what youthere, because of the
information and ideas you'veacquired and practiced and
executed on in the meantime.
Love it, yeah, absolutely.
That feels like a good place toend for today.
Yes, I'm ready to get in thestudio.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
I'm fired up right now let's go.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
We say this all the time, but we really are just
doing this.
I mean, this is a, this is a a,both a selfless and a selfish
pursuit.
So I get, we get more energizedand excited about what we're
going to do.
Uh, you know, as a result,which is what makes us fun and
and why we're going to keepdoing it.
But I think we've shared abunch of tangible takeaways.
We don't need to spend too muchtime on this, but I think at the
at the very end here, I thinkI'm just going to reiterate what
we had said earlier, which isit's important for all of us to
(50:06):
pay attention to, of course, thework, what we're doing visually
, but also really pay attentionto the practice and the process
and the emotions and thethoughts, the feelings, you know
, some of which might bepositive, but a lot of which are
going to be on the morenegative or self-doubt side.
And just continuing to developour code, our mantra, our way of
(50:31):
thinking about how we make thework, will inevitably lead to us
making better work and pushingour work forward, getting closer
to the best work that we'recapable of making.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
Yep, love it.
I gotta go.
I gotta get in the studio.
I can't take this anymore.
So, nathan, of course , about 30 minutes before we're
about to start this episode, Ihad an epiphany.
And so what did that make me do?
It made me sprint into my 180degree studio, cut a, cut, a
stretcher bars set of stretcherbars, put it together and
stretch a small canvas so that Icould put some clear primer on
(00:33):
it and ensure that it's dried bythe time that we stopped
recording.
So I'll do my best not to liftmy arms in the episode for
anybody watching video onYouTube or Spotify, because I
I'm soaked.
And now I'm in my office and Ihave the air conditioner turned
off so that we don't haveaudible noise, and so the heat
is starting to build, andbasically what I'm saying is I
(00:54):
just got myself into a lot oftrouble, and that really is
going to lead into an incrediblequote we have coming up.
I love this.
So when you and I talk aboutplanning episodes, we kind of go
back and forth, back and forth,back and forth, and I think
this is a great piggyback off ofthe learning episode we had on
the last one, because you and Iboth discovered an art 21
(01:15):
episode basically at the sametime, on the same day.
That made us go.
Oh my goodness, we have to talkabout Amy Sillman and that
episode.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Absolutely yeah.
And speaking of our previousepisode on being a student of
the game, this is one of the Iwould argue one of the easiest
ways to soak up a ton of wisdomaround credible artists, their
practice, the way that theythink about their work, which
we'll get into with this firstquote.
So let's just jump in, go aheadand hit us.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I used to always ask my students what is your unit?
You know, there's an atom,there's an inch, there's an hour
, there's a day, there's a hand,there's a year.
What is your base unit?
Because I'm assuming thateverybody's is totally different
and they would give me thesebeautiful answers that were
super concise, you know, likeone person would just say it's
(02:09):
one hour.
Whatever they said, I wouldtake it seriously and I thought,
like how do you build thelanguage out of those units?
Because everyone's kind ofmaking up a grammar for their
own work.
And what's your unit?
I don't know, I can't evenanswer the question.
I think my unit is trouble.
You go to trouble, then you getout of trouble, then you get
(02:31):
back in trouble.
So trouble or not trouble,getting to it and getting away
from it and getting from onetrouble to the other.
Trouble is the unit.
I'm always pretty much lookingfor something that contradicts
the layer that came before,creating a certain kind of
tension and creating somethingthat feels like it sort of holds
(02:54):
together and it's sort offalling apart at the same time
and creating something.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
So that's Amy Sillman , an incredible artist, educator
, printmaker, drawer, has beenaround New York for a very, very
long time as an educator.
Right, she's talking about howshe always presents these ideas
to her students and asks themwell, what's your unit?
And I think, try to get them toreally focus on something, some
(03:22):
reason why they're creatingwhere they're creating, from
what they're trying to say, andkind of packaging that all
together in something.
And obviously she's got a lotof little broad answers.
But as a great educator, youare always learning from your
students and the things theytell you, which I think is why
she's asking that question,because it's making her dig into
(03:42):
the answers and that's causingher, as somebody who's
continuing to educate herself,to grow in her work and how she
thinks about things.
And I love how the interviewersays well, what's your unit, amy
?
And she goes I don't know.
And then she goes.
I know it's trouble and that tome not an epiphany or highly
(04:03):
prophetic, but it went.
Yep, I absolutely am rightthere with her trouble.
I freaking love that as a unit.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yes, there's two parts of this quote, ty, that I
think are really interesting toexamine.
One is the whole idea that shebegins with of just creating a
grammar for your own work.
A grammar for your own work, Imean.
I think as artists, we're alltrying to find a way to I don't
want to say standardized, buthave a framework for how we
think about the work that we'redoing, and I think that's a very
(04:35):
practical way to approach theprocess of making work, because
we do have a lot ofconversations with ourself
around what am I doing here,what's my approach?
Sort of these.
If, then scenarios of if I getin trouble, when I create
trouble for myself, then I dot,dot, dot, and so I just really
like that idea in general,setting aside for the moment the
(04:57):
idea of trouble, but just theidea of really thinking about
for each of us as artists, ascreatives, what is our own
grammar for our own work, how dowe think about our work?
And I would say again, justpiggybacking on our last episode
, I think this is one of thegreatest benefits of doing
things like this, and by likethis I mean watching and
(05:20):
listening to other artists,phenomenal artists like Amy, who
have been doing it for quitesome time, hearing how the
language they use when theythink about art in general and
their work specifically.
I don't know about you, but Ihave a ton of moments, even just
in this, whatever, this is11-minute video that everybody
(05:41):
needs to watch for sure.
Maybe pause this and go listento it, watch it or wait till
after the episode, butdefinitely spend some time with
it.
But this and many others likeit.
I have so many moments wherejust like, oh yeah, that's it,
right, that's yes, that's how Ithink about it, and much like
(06:03):
the same way that when we talkabout, I think about it.
And much like the same way thatwhen we talk about how we are
going to be influenced by thework that we like the best, the
work that we're consuming, howimportant it is and you talk
about this all the time theimportance of just looking at a
lot of art.
I think this is a very similaridea, where the benefits of
listening to a lot of artiststalk about how they think about
(06:24):
their work is incrediblyvaluable, because it gives us
additional language to processand think about our own practice
.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Well, and that's one of the things that we're we hear
from artists all the time intheir studios, whether it's
beginning, emerging, whateverlevel of art you're at is oh my
gosh, I just want to feel morefreedom in the studio.
I want to feel less burden tofinish a piece or less burden to
create something new, or I justwant to go in there with like
this freedom and just make stuffand not feel pressure to have
to kind of perform for myself.
(06:53):
And I think I understood this.
But hearing her say it, likeyou say, listening to other
artists like helps you so much,because I went, hadn't even
thought about the fact that whenshe said so, trouble or not
trouble, getting to it andgetting away from it, and
getting from one trouble to theother, like that's what she's
always doing hitting the trouble, finding another one, searching
(07:15):
.
But for me I was like, oh mygosh.
Yeah, I'm always trying toembrace new challenges in my
work and I really am searchingfor uncertainty and trouble so
that I can create more troubleout of it.
Cause what does that do?
It kind of gives me a littlebit of freedom to kind of
breathe and not feel burdened bytrying to force something to
work and that's why I've chosencertain ways of creating through
(07:39):
different types of forms andtools and things which we'll
talk about later today.
Because I want that uncertainty, I want new trouble, because
maybe I can create a brand newidea out of that bit of trouble
that ends up existing on thecanvas and that only comes from
perspective True.
Yes.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
And perspective comes from paying attention.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yes, I had a moment recently where I was looking
back at a piece and a couple ofmoments that I really really
liked, and then I was thinkingabout how those came to be.
And then I remember the daythat that happened and feeling
like I was completely lost right, that I had no compass or true
(08:19):
north around the work or how itwas developing.
And so when I talk aboutperspective, really what I'm
talking about is realizing thatwe can use our past experiences
to coach our current and futureselves in the moment, Meaning
that and I remind myself of thisconstantly, I'm sure you do as
well which is when we feel likewe're in trouble in the moment,
(08:42):
when we feel like something'snot working, it's like, oh yeah,
well, that's okay.
It's okay to feel that waybecause this what's happening
right now could producesomething in the future that
really does work, that reallydoes Right.
So not getting too connected tohow we feel, you know, in the
moment.
We've talked about this before,but I think it's really
(09:02):
important to realize that.
I'll just keep this in firstperson, because I'm not sure if
this is universal or not, but,like I remind myself all the
time, how I feel in the momentwhile I'm creating is not
indicative of how good thework's going to be or how useful
you know those, those marks orlayers or whatever it is you
know might be, and that and thatgoes in both directions, right.
(09:23):
There's days when I'm just, youknow, had had eight hours of
sleep.
It's 72 degrees outside, thesun is shining.
I'm fully caffeinated, I'm justlike hell.
Yeah, I'm killing it.
Right, well, yeah, you'd lovethat right now, wouldn't you?
Um and uh, you know you comeback the next day or you'll go.
Oh, that actually wasn't thatgood.
I was just feeling good andhaving a good day.
But the opposite is also true,right, there's days when I feel
(09:45):
like crap, I'm down, I'm tired,I, you know whatever.
Fill in the blank with whateverlittle thing I might be whining
about on that particular day orfeeling sorry for me.
But, like you know, look backand be like oh okay, that wasn't
like a fun, enjoyable day, youknow, in the studio, but it did
produce work that I'm actuallyreally excited about.
So not confusing how we feelwith how productive not to use
(10:08):
that term or misuse that termbut how useful that time in the
studio could be.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah, and trouble right is a challenge with your
work or your medium, right, itcould be a mental challenge,
could be a physical medium ortechnique challenge medium,
right, it could be a mentalchallenge, it could be a
physical medium or techniquechallenge.
It's mistakes that mess up thatthing that you're really trying
to do and it's just not comingout the way you see it.
In your head it's coming outcompletely opposite and also
contradictions.
(10:35):
Oh, I meant to do that andsomething else happened
completely and really right.
What we talked about lastepisode, that artist who's
continuing to educate and learnall of that is going to feed in
right and be a catalyst forchange and evolution and new
ideas through those moments oftrouble.
I embrace those so much and I'malways teaching artists and
(10:57):
telling artists to embrace thosethings right Because, like you
said, you either come to thestudio on fire or you come worn
out.
You either create somethingreally really crappy one day and
something really strong thatmoves another day, and those can
completely happen in oppositeinstances and things.
And I think just being able tofeel a little bit more alive in
(11:20):
freedom for our growth and forthe expectations of what we may
be doing is just embracing whatshe's saying, just embracing
that, letting it happen, lettingit flow, but growing each step
of the way, which I know issomething we're always
encouraging.
When you walk away from thestudio, no matter where it is,
walk away knowing you grew today, yeah, even if the day sucked
(11:43):
and it was horrible andeverything looked like shit, you
can walk away knowing I ambetter than I was when I got
into the studio, and I thinkthat's what embracing the
trouble really, really is.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Just that idea of marks were made, layers were
added or subtracted, as we'lltalk about in a little bit here.
But something happened and youtalk about that word.
You know tension, the tensionthat's created in the work
itself, the tension that weexperience internally, and the
way that that gets resolved isinteresting.
It does lead to growth ofourselves and the work as a
(12:17):
whole, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Part of doing improvisational work is pitting
yourself against the materialsand the resistance that they
offer and trying to figure outhow to make something happen
where you're both working withthe materials and also very much
working against them andquestioning them.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, so you know, I love this one.
Yes For a lot of reasons, yep,working with so many different
types of materials.
That's one of the reasons whyI'm drawn to always looking for
the next thing that I'm going touse in my work is because I
love working with material thathas already lived a life, or
lives as what it was intended tobe.
(12:59):
For anyone not familiar with mywork, I use a lot of repurposed
material that I that I find andthen alter in in a variety of
different ways, but I reallythink it doesn't matter what.
Whatever you're using as your,as your, mediums of choice.
I think about it a lot as arelationship between myself and
the material, and it is it'sit's a push and a pull.
(13:23):
It's sometimes we're workinghand in hand and we myself and
the materials have the same ideaabout where it's supposed to go
, and other times, more often,if I'm being honest, it's very
much a contentious relationshipfor quite some time.
You know there is a what.
What do you have to?
(13:44):
What do you material have tosay?
How can we discover togetherwhat there is here, you know?
And so when she talks abouttrying to figure out how to make
something happen, where you'reboth working with the materials
and very much working againstthem and questioning them.
Back to that idea of askingquestions.
You know, what could you be,what?
What were you questions?
(14:04):
What could you be, what wereyou before, what could you be in
the future and how could therelationship that we have in the
process of trying to makesomething here, what could that
reveal about the material itself?
And help me say what I'm tryingto say as a whole?
Overall, right, but it's aconversation, it's a back and
forth, it's absolutely adialogue.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Well, and there's 100% resistance with material,
because material can only do asmuch as it can do.
Yeah, right, so there aremoments where you are going to
take paint medium, whatever asfar as it can go and it can't go
any further.
Whatever as far as it can goand it can't go any further.
Yeah, that's why I'm alwaysencouraging other artists Try
(14:48):
everything, try it all.
If you primarily work in paint,put the paint in your hands and
feel the difference betweenevery type of paint.
What does a pasto feel like?
What does an oil paint feellike?
What does acrylic, what does amore expensive acrylic feel like
?
What does a student acrylicpaint feel like?
What does a acrylic feel like?
(15:10):
What does a student acrylicpaint feel like?
What does a gel feel like?
What does molding paste feellike?
Feel it, touch it, know it.
That way, you kind of know howthat material may respond on
canvas and what it may or maynot be able to do when you start
to create with it.
Now, on the other hand, withsomebody who's mixed media, it's
let's go as far as we can go,right, let's find every type of
material we can find at HomeDepot, at the art store in the
backyard, at the dump, in thetrash can and let's play, play,
(15:32):
play, play, because the more youhave learned and tried, the
more you have in your arsenal topossibly solve a problem or
some trouble.
When you get there, it may ariseand go.
You know what Glad I messedwith cement a few months ago
because cement would work.
Perfect for what I really amtrying to get out of this
acrylic paint with molding paste, and it just doesn't have the
(15:55):
right feel or texture to me.
So I think for me it's reallybeing responsive and being able
to adapt during your processesand think through.
Just like she says, you have towork with the material, but
you're also working against it,because oftentimes we're trying
to do more than the materialwill allow us to do.
So we have to go, try newthings and new ideas, and that's
(16:18):
probably for you and I, one ofthe most exciting parts of being
an artist.
Something you and I love to domore than anything is just keep
trying new stuff.
It's the best.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
It's the best we were .
The family was.
We were in the city yesterdayfor our youngest birthday.
She loves thrifting, so we'rewalking downtown and anyway I
saw what I think was probablysome type of a filter.
I don't know what itsapplication was.
It was just sitting next tothis trash can and I kind of
stopped and I looked.
(16:50):
My wife and both daughters werelike keep, no, no, Dad, keep
going.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Please keep walking.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
A lot like I have to say to Leo you know, if we're
walking and he's sniffing aroundsomething that I don't want him
to start eating, like keepgoing.
No, but it's just that it thatan insatiable curiosity like
what would happen.
You know, when I slice that up,when I whatever heated it up,
carved it, whatever, manipulateit in some way.
But you know, when you weretalking to, I was thinking about
, like in a lot of ways, therelationship that we have with,
(17:18):
with our mediums, with our, withour material.
It's a lot like therelationships that we have with
other people in that thestrongest bonds that we have I
mean, if you think about thepeople that you're, whatever the
five people you're closest tofriends, family, partners,
whatever it might be thoserelationships are strong because
they've been tested, because wehave experienced things
(17:42):
together that were imperfect,that were outside the lines,
that were not just an averageday.
That's how we learn who we areindividually and who we are
together in terms of ourrelationship.
And so, when it comes tomaterials, I'm a big fan of
encouraging everybody to notjust use material, but misuse
(18:03):
material To your point get it inyour material, but misuse
material to your point, like,absolutely get it in your hands,
get it in your fingernails,right Like, see what happens
when you, when you do thingsthat are, you know, not written
on the, on the, on the package,the back of the box, just to you
never know, just just to pushit right, see how far you know
you can put.
You can always come back, youcan always come back to like you
know you can put.
(18:23):
You can always come back, youcan always come back to, like
you know, back inside the lines,back for its intended purpose.
And again, I don't know howmuch of this applies to what
everyone's you know doing or not, but I think that there's a
version of this that is usefulfor, you know, anyone who's
trying to explore, you know, newterritory.
Part of the video that we'retalking about here, you know,
she talks about how she doeshave a few brushes in her studio
(18:44):
, but most of what she uses are,you know, not traditional
materials.
You know what I'm saying and Iactually I would love to hear
you talk about that, because Iactually, you know, tell the
story about how, when, when didyou start using cardboard and
kind of what led to that.
I think that would be.
This would be a good sort ofyou know little use case.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
I think I've always fought with materials because I
want I've always wanted anunexpected thing to come out,
which is why, after studying alot of the more modern Japanese
calligraphists who would havethese brushes tied to pulleys,
that the brushes were like 10feet tall with a three or four
foot actual hair and brush tip,they dip an ink and they'd run
(19:22):
it across this pulley on thismassive piece of paper in a
studio, and I would go okay,they have control with their
body and gesture, but they don'tknow how the pulley is going to
swing right or left and theirmovement, how fast they're going
, and also there's ink drippingoff other parts of the brushes
while they're moving.
And then when you'd look atthat 20-foot piece at the end,
(19:43):
it was perfectly imperfect and Ithink I went that's what I want
in my work.
So I started using really longbrushes and things with a lack
of control, so that I'm gettingsome imperfections out of the
things I'm doing.
Cardboard back this is, I think, 2018, maybe 2019 from a solo
(20:05):
show that didn't sell any workin North Carolina and all the
work came back and all the boxesand I cut up all the boxes to
throw them out and I went.
I'm going to make somecardboard paintings.
So I just started cutting themout and building all these
cardboard canvases and stackingcardboard and ripping it and
painting on it and I didn't likehow one looks, so I pulled it
off and it had.
(20:26):
I was using paint to glue itand it left a mark and and I
went, huh, I wonder what thatwould do if I started doing that
as transfer on pieces.
So I had a couple pieces I wasworking on and so I started just
kind of painting on cardboardand then pressing it down and
pulling off as a transfer, and Iwas doing it with other things
(20:46):
and I went I kind of like thatidea.
I need to think more about thatFast forward.
That's a major part of my actualcreating, and creation today is
using material that's not anart material, using it in a way
that it's never really supposedto be used for and it's creating
something that I can't control.
(21:07):
I can control it up to a point,yeah, but as I pull it off,
there's going to be a surprisesomewhere in there, and that for
me has just become.
I love that.
It creates so much trouble forme and it's so freaking fun,
that surprise, and so, really,that tension exists now between
using a material that you don'treally know how it's going to
(21:27):
work every time.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
And I don't know.
It's fun, I love it.
It's so fun and it's a reallygood testament to the importance
and the value of leaving spacein our practice to be surprised
and to chase those surprisesdown, you know again, like you
know, I think, one of the, I hada studio visit earlier this
week with about half a dozenartists who came by.
(21:50):
They were part of a littlecoven little group.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, one of my current mentees in my program.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
That's exactly right, yes, and so they came by and we
were having an interestingconversation.
But one of the things that cameup is I believe the question
was something related to youknow, how do you make sure that
trying different things doesn't,you know, ruin a piece?
And I said I'm always happy toruin a piece, I'm not happy, I'm
(22:20):
always okay with ruining apiece.
Yep, because I have thatabiding belief that it is in
service to pushing the workforward.
So I think that, to your point,when something happened, when
one of those surprises happen,and maybe you chase it down on
what you're working on at thatmoment Maybe not, but capturing
that and doing something with it, starting other little studies
(22:43):
or other little things on theside, but doing it I think it's
close.
Now, I don't know, banking ideasis valuable.
But again, back to like, backto my idea of, or my point of,
not worrying about ruining thepiece or ruining the timeline
that I had in mind for finishingthe piece that I was working on
.
I'm not going to forget or if Idid, it probably was worth
(23:05):
forgetting.
Anyway I'm not going to likelose track of where I was at on
that.
I can look at it and see likehere's, here's, what's next.
But chasing down those littlediscoveries, I think, is so, so
valuable, because we just neverknow which one is going to
become the next big thing thatwe're going to be able to mine
for years and entire bodies ofwork.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah, well, and there's.
That's the balance betweencontrol and spontaneity.
Yep, right, if you'recompletely trying to control
your work, it's going to bereally, really frustrating,
because then you're just tryingto make a finished piece all the
time and it just doesn't workthat way all the time.
Right.
But you want to balance thatspontaneity of trying new things
with things that have beenworking and things that have
really been growing, and keepingthose in while you're adding
(23:48):
those new ideas and then thosenew things into it.
And, like you said, you'regoing to walk away at the end of
the day and know that you justlearned so much more.
And all artists discoveryyou're going to be discovering
something that's leading to thenext jump and the next big thing
.
And I love let's listen toanother quote by Amy, cause
she's really going to go intothese things pretty incredibly.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
You know it's not perfect.
It shows it scrape downs and itshows its revision and it shows
its finickiness, but it alsoshows its openness and this
maybe vain attempt to like pushfurther or dig deeper.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Oh, nathan, push further or dig deeper.
Wow, that I mean.
Come on, and I love that shesays this may be a vain attempt.
I mean it's like to pushfurther or dig deeper, showing
the imperfections and allowingthem to be seen as a form of
(24:48):
openness.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
What you just pointed out, like the acknowledgement
that it may be a vain attempt, Ithink is actually really,
really important.
Just sitting in that place oflike this may not work.
If we were putting odds on it,it probably won't, but it might,
but it might.
And even if it doesn't, it'sgoing to lead to something else.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Well and I think too, it's like when she's talking
about this, she's talking aboutshowing the process in the final
piece yeah, and that final workthat's on the gallery wall,
that's up there, andacknowledging that there's
mistakes in it.
It's not a perfect piece.
There aren't just absoluteperfect shininess or corners or
things.
She's allowing theimperfections to also speak for
(25:33):
themselves, which is something Iabsolutely embrace in my work
as well, and early on I knowI've talked about this before I
used to circle and put littlearrows on mess ups and scripts
and I'd put oops or a dumbpencil mark or little things
like that, just to kind of bevain and sarcasm for myself of
acknowledging I made mistakesbut actually really like this.
(25:55):
I might even like this betterthan the other pieces that I
really tried to control in thatpainting.
Right, well, how do you, how doyou feel about revision?
Because part of this, too, istalking about.
She says it shows its revisionsand shows its finickiness, you
know, and she's working over andworking over and working over
(26:16):
and constantly taking away andbuilding upon and taking it away
.
There's construction andthere's deconstruction of the
piece, and I know you and I bothdo some construction and
deconstruction within our work,and so I don't know if I
consider my deconstructionrevision.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Oh I, absolutely do Okay, it's probably my favorite
part, like.
So.
It's funny because when theearlier quote that we talked
about as far as what's your unit, I think the first thing that
came to mind for me wasexcavation, or extraction, which
(26:57):
is the removal, which is thescraping down.
Right like I, I've thought alot about the moments.
I had one earlier this weekwhere I finally got to it is
it's like, it's like my rewardfor the work that it takes to
build up different layers ofdifferent material, which can
also be fun but is also morejust like the sort of like task
oriented work part of theprocess for me.
(27:17):
But when I get to burn, carve,scrape, sand, when I get to pull
those things off with a generalidea about what's going to be
revealed, but nothing resemblingactual knowledge or certainty,
that's what I create, that'swhat I look forward to.
So when I hear the word revision, I think about addition and
(27:42):
subtraction.
That's one of the things that Ilove about working
three-dimensionally, or at leastworking on services, where I
have in most cases at least halfan inch, if not more than that,
to carve back down into or morematerial to put on top.
But it's just that process ofdiscovery, that process of
excavation of what's under here.
(28:03):
I've got an idea because I putit there, but I have no idea how
it's going to express itselfwhen those layers are removed
and when that's carved down.
I don't know if I answered yourquestion.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
But is that revising?
Is that revising the piece oris that continually?
Even though you'redeconstructing, you're still
building the piece.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah, I kind of reject that word, revision in
general, because revision to me,when I think about revision, I
think about all right, I've gota very specific intended outcome
here.
I'm revising an essay where I'mnot communicating my ideas
effectively, so I need to revisethe way that I'm, because I
have an intended message or idea.
(28:43):
You know that I'm attempting tocommunicate and the previous
revision wasn't doing the jobright.
So I've got to revise what I'vegot to better communicate
something in particular with thedesired outcome in mind, and
that's not.
You know, that's, that's not myprocess.
My my well, and that's what Iwas getting, and that's what I
was getting at.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
is that I don't.
I don't see myself as arevisionist when it comes to my
work, right, and that's.
That's a beauty of art.
We're all different in the waywe make things.
Right?
Amy is saying she revises andrebuilds and then she goes.
I want to clean that up somemore.
I want to take this to adifferent spot.
Whereas I am like I'll get to apoint where I feel like the
work is done and if I don't likeit, I don't go fix it.
(29:23):
I paint over it and I startover yeah, completely gone, and
the canvas is flipped over andit's something completely new.
So that but that's my process,and I'm not saying either is
right or wrong, because I knowthere are plenty of.
I have plenty of friends who areincredible painters and they
revise and revise, and revise,you know, and then all of a
(29:46):
sudden, when they really feelstrong about okay, I'm done
working on it and it's in itsfinished state for me, if I
don't like it, it's gone, itdoes not get revised, it does
not get fixed, it doesn't getanything addition, it didn't
work, it's time to move on tothe next thing.
But that's just me personally,and there is that.
That's that paradox that she'stalking about too right, there's
(30:08):
a paradox between striving forperfection while embracing
imperfection as well.
There's so many ways to try andthink through time with our
work when we're thinking aboutthis imperfection, the
perfection building, discovering, excavating all these things,
and really the only way toreally show us how we have grown
(30:31):
, how we have embraced, how wehave taken things from one place
to the next, right on thatjourney, that discovery, that
map making of our career, isreally to create a big stock of
documentation of what we'redoing, where it came from and
that journey that it went on,and I think Amy has something
(30:51):
really good to say about that.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
I always take photographs in my studio, like
with my phone, and just seemyself at night, like what the
sort of progression or animationis.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
So there's really for such a simple thing, right,
taking photographs in the studiowith the phone and looking at
them at night to see herprogression, whatever.
It's such a simple thing, but Ithink it's so valuably
important, and I have.
I myself, after I read AustinKleon's book Show your Work,
started documenting everything Ido and really as a way to
(31:25):
create kind of an encyclopediaby year of my progress, my
journey, techniques, things I'vetried, things I played with,
and for me to just go back andlook at how time has truly
affected the development of mywork and its things and how you
(31:46):
can see the narratives of life.
Right, because that's whatbeing a contemporary painter is
You're showing now, right,you're creating now and you're
showing now and today, and soI'm able to go back and go oh,
wow, yeah, 2014.
No more, no wonder I was makingmy work like that.
These things were happening,life was this way, the world was
this way and I hadn't knownthese things yet.
(32:07):
Oh my gosh, 2018.
Look at that work, look at theway that it grew, look at the
things I started doing.
And I always tell any of myartists in my program document
everything, even if you're notgoing to share it.
I don't care if you don't shareit on Instagram.
I don't care if you don't haveaccounts that you're sharing
stuff all the time.
Do it for yourself.
Do it for Our last episodelearn, be educated.
(32:30):
You need to be doing the samething with your own work that
you're doing with all theseother artists that you admire's
work as well.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Absolutely.
That was another part of theconversation with the studio
visitor this week was, I forgetsomebody had asked me if, you
know, recording things or havingthe phone on the tripod was
distracting or if it, you know,pulled me out of flow, and I
said not really just because I'mused to it.
Now I maybe did a little bit atfirst, but with the goal in
(33:01):
mind of pushing the work as farpossible, as quickly as possible
.
I want to accelerate mylearning curve, and so I know
that even if I'm not going toshare it which I often don't I
mean I do share some, but thatreally is not my primary
motivation for recording thesethings.
I watch back clips all the timeespecially when it's an in the
(33:24):
moment free flowing accident orintuitive thing like that.
Beautiful mistake, the beautifulmistake, and then you go back
and look at something thatyou're like well, that's that.
Actually, that's the, that'sthe strongest moment of this
entire piece.
How did I do?
How did I do that?
I'm not one that takes notes,necessarily.
I'm not.
That's not, that's not uh, uh.
(33:46):
About the work itself, I shouldsay or, or in the moment I'm
not writing recipes or thingslike that, but absolutely, you
know, there's, there's enough inthose video clips to be able to
remember like, oh yeah, that'sthe day that it was raining and
because it was raining, itimpacted the way that the
whatever would receive the flameand the marks that were made as
a result, or whatever it mightbe.
(34:07):
So that is the value, for sure,of documenting your process.
I don't know, I don't dodigital art much at all, but
once in a while I'll.
I'll open up a procreate on theiPad if I'm on a plane and just
kind of mess around, butthere's a feature on there where
you can just automaticallyrecords, yeah, a time lapse,
right yeah.
It's so fun to watch.
It's so fun Cause it's causeit's right there.
(34:36):
You're like, oh yeah, and itback.
But there's some interestingthings that can be observed and
learned about one's process indoing that.
So, whether it's withphotographs or video, or maybe
you are somebody who reallywants to take notes, but that's
so, so valuable, I think, to aperson's progression
artistically.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Well, and if you watch the Art in 21 episode,
which I suggest everybody does,we'll put the link in everything
.
What Amy did and I don't knowif this was on purpose or not or
because she does photographeverything, but she was able to
do that show where she showedthe actual progress from the
first layer to the last layer ofa painting in photographs in
(35:12):
prints Pretty freaking cool.
Layer of a painting inphotographs in prints Pretty
freaking cool.
Like I thought and I don't knowif she was just going through
her stuff one day, because shedocuments everything that much
that she went well, that'd be abadass show.
Yeah, I'm going to takepictures of the entire journey
of one painting and they're allright, they were good
photographs.
It wasn't, like you know,crooked yellow light studio
(35:33):
photographs are all really welldone, so she can make prints of
it and it showed from one layerto the next and they created
this easel system that put allof those prints across the
entire room in the middle.
So you, I mean that was that'samazing, that's breakthrough,
right.
That's that experimentation anddoing something.
She's doing something that'stech related within the work,
(35:53):
not with the purpose of creatingwork from that, but then
because she's experimenting anddoing things.
That then got involved.
It became a work of art, yeah,so you never know.
That's the thing, right?
That's why we're alwaysencouraging you all play, try,
do everything.
If you have different loves andthings you want to do, mess
around, see what happens.
Who knows what could come fromit?
I mean, this was a whole showfor her.
(36:15):
Those prints from thosephotographs of a painting taken
with her iPhone.
It all became a series andbecame an incredible show, and I
love that.
That's just beautiful, and thisis why we added this to this
episode.
This quote from Amy was takepictures of your stuff, capture
what you're doing for yourself.
Yeah, we want you to beeducated.
(36:38):
We want you to understand yourwork in a really, really great
way so you can talk about it andbe confident talking about it.
Uh, in arenas where you mayhave the opportunity to discuss
and talk about your work,studying your own work, taking
pictures, videos, whatever youwant to do document it so that
you have it and so that you canlearn more about your process
and how you're doing things, andit just becomes second nature
(37:00):
in your head.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Yeah, so Ty, I'd like to close with the quote that
might just have excited me themost of this whole video so good
.
Let's just play it, all right.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
And the next thing depends on the thing play it
slippage between control andfinesse and form and wanting it
(37:37):
to be good and constantlyadjusting things and trying to
make it better, and between justlike first thought, best
thought, like let it all hangout, like do a thing.
See what you're surprised bythat tension is the tension of
me making my work so, yeah, sogood, that's so good.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
It's beautiful.
It's beautiful again, just forthe whatever the fifth time of
this episode.
Like listening to other artistswho, I mean, she has been
thinking about her work for 60years, maybe more, I don't know
but listening to people who havehad the time to really study
their own work and understand itand have the language for what
(38:19):
it's like for them.
Again, it's so, so importantbecause, like, oh yeah, like I
mentioned earlier in the episode, that's it.
That's how I think about it.
That's oh yeah, yeah, that'swhat it is right, because we
need to make.
It's one of those things thatyou probably understood
intuitively or kind of had ageneral sense of, but to
actually put precise language toit, I think, is so, so valuable
.
So, yeah, the next thingdepends on the thing before it.
(38:42):
You know, dealing with mistakes.
Let's talk about this wholeidea of dealing with regret,
because I think that's such animportant thing that every one
of us has.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Sorry, f-bomb almost came out, so we almost got an
explicit rating because I almostdropped an F-bomb right there.
Oh the regret.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Yeah, it's real right , I mean, and it's something
that.
So, again, we think about thework, what are we trying to say
with the work?
What are we trying to dovisually?
But we also think about theprocess of making the work and
anticipating how we're going tofeel, not if, but when certain
things happen.
(39:21):
And one of the things that isgoing to happen in everybody's
studio practice is that momentof regret of ah F.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Oh God, no, let me do that again.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Yeah, what's your thought process when you, when
you heard that?
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Well, when I, when I was watching it for the
umpteenth time I'm such a nerdand I'm such a visual person
that and I've watched so many ofthese videos and I've written a
few storyboards of creatingones for other artists and
things that kind of follow thatpattern of art 21.
I saw me walking in from aroundthe corner with a cappuccino to
hand to her to sit down and gogod, let's freaking dive in more
(40:01):
yeah let's dive in more to thattill, you know, because, oh it,
oh, regret, golly, the killerof dreams in the artist's mind
sometimes, and it's and I'm nottalking about just art your art
journey outside of the studio,I'm talking about in the studio.
Yeah, that it always happens tome at the end of the body of
work, like I'll create a body ofwork for an exhibition, a show
(40:24):
or just for myself, where I'mgoing with new ideas and I'll
create it's usually between 15and 35, 40 paintings when I
create a body of work and I'llstart so strong in my head yes,
okay, yeah, I'm resolving thesequestions and I'm answering
these problems and I'm gettinginto trouble and I'm finesse,
and then all of a sudden I dothe last three and I go those
(40:46):
are the ones F me.
I got 30 paintings.
Now that should have been thosethree.
Can I—oh God, no, let me dothat again.
It happens to me every time andI think, once I got comfortable
with realizing, the next thingdepends on the thing before it.
(41:11):
Yeah, like she says, I went.
No, I had to do those 30.
Those 30 got me to these threewhich are leading to the next 20
or the next 30.
If I hadn't have gone throughthose, that whole process of
making all that work and gettingto these last ones, I wouldn't
(41:31):
have had myself confidentlysaying the next thing is now
ready and it just led me there.
That's my process, that's how Igo through working in the
studio and fighting thatresistance and fighting regret
is I know this is taking me tothat next thing because it
flushed itself out and all thosethings and it's now.
(41:53):
It's the train reaction, it's achain reaction.
Each of those moments is just achain reaction to the next
artistic decision I'm going tomake in the next body of work.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
And insert your favorite cliche here trust the
process.
But just knowing that, like, Ithink that there's, that it's
back to that idea of perspectivewhere it's a little bit like
technology.
As you were talking, I wasthinking about how you know,
when you're talking aboutcreating that body of work and
not getting to the thing untilthe very end, I think the
perspective that comes fromaccepting that I don't yet have
(42:25):
a way to resolve this particularchallenge that I'm encountering
with the work.
But it's like technology, youknow, it's like there are there
are certainly thing, or medicine, for example where it's like
it's known that the things thatare needed to solve this
particular problem they kind ofexist but they're not quite
refined enough to use for thisparticular application, whatever
(42:46):
it might or whatever it mightbe.
But it will exist, it willdevelop over time.
We will get to a point wherethat will be there and so just
accepting that, you know I don't, I don't have, I don't know
about you, but I've got a numberof pieces that have just been
like I pulled one of them.
(43:07):
Now have a thing, I'll be realspecific.
This piece I just didn't havewhat I needed to really resolve
it in a way that made sense andsince starting it, I mean this
one's just been kind of hangingout in the maybe pile for a
couple of years.
I now know, because I startedworking with metal I'm like, oh
(43:28):
yeah, now I've got it, now Ihave the language, now I have
the thing to do it.
The other big thing from thatquote that, again, we've talked
about so many times this is thevalue of listening to and
reading autobiographies.
Listening to other artists talk, it's not just you reading
autobiographies.
Listening to other artists talk, it's not just you.
(43:48):
Even someone like Amy, who'sdone the work that she has the
body of work tremendous stillhas those moments.
So it's not necessarily goingto make those moments of regret
or any better.
It's still going to suck inthat moment, but having the
perspective of like, oh, this ispart of it, this is part of the
(44:10):
path that I'm on, this is partof the journey that I've chosen
to be on, and everybodyexperiences this a lot and will
continue to, for sure, for theduration of the time that we get
a chance to keep making stuff.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Well, and she says it right here so on the big level
and on the little level and onevery level in between, yeah,
how do you interpret that I hada couple of different big level,
little level.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
How do you read that?
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Yeah, I mean because she says the slippage between
control and finesse and form andwanting to be good yeah,
wanting it to be good, right,and constantly to be good yeah,
wanting it to be good, right,and constantly adjusting things
to make it better.
So, on the big level, the Ithink it's done, it's ready to
go to the tate.
We'll use places that she'sshown, for example whitney, the
tate moma, the biggest places.
(44:57):
Okay, on the big level, it'sgood.
Yeah, I'm right, it's, it'sgood and it's ready to go out.
I can send that to theexhibition at the Whitney, I can
send it to this Biennale withthis body of work.
But then, on the little level,is well, is it for just
something I'm making?
To get me to the next thing, isit just the piece that's not
(45:17):
going to leave the studio?
I think that's a big level, butin the grand terms of the art
world and where Amy is, that's asmaller level than sending it
out to the Whitney or the Tateor to a Biennale or something.
And then every level in between, that's maybe a gallery, maybe
an art dealer, maybe whatever.
(45:37):
So it's like there's controland finesse and you want it to
be good and you're constantlyadjusting things whether that's
in that piece or the next pieceor the next piece to improve it
so that it's able to be on allthose levels and you can go okay
, I'm okay with it on all thoselevels.
That's at least how I interpretit.
No, I like that a lot.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
That's the other thing too.
Ty is like this.
What I'm about to share, it'snot an antidote for regret, but
it is a treatment for it.
And the treatment for regret isback to the value of
documenting our process, knowingthat if we ruin a piece or if
we cover something up that wasmagical, that we want to try to
(46:17):
get back again.
I think that's the value ofdocumenting our process Because,
while we'll never be able tonecessarily create exactly the
same thing I don't know aboutyou, I probably wouldn't want to
anyway do the exact same thingbut there's oftentimes a mark, a
gesture, a technique, a texture, fill in the blank, where,
(46:38):
because I'll just talk about myown experience, because I've got
the video that I can go andwatch back, I can recreate the
conditions that led to that,sure, and then I can just say,
all right, I'm going, I'm goingall in on this particular thing
and I do it all the time, whichwas studies like I'll have okay,
let's do eight differentversions of this.
(46:59):
That's actually where I willtake a little bit of notes.
I'll write in a post-it notewhat I did, the timing, the
amount, the level of pressure,the tools, you know, whatever
all the variables that that Imight be be tweaking, but we can
recreate the conditions thatled to that thing and with
enough experimentation thathappy accident can then be
integrated into our visuallanguage.
(47:20):
Going forward it can become athing right that we can get back
to a point where we canrecreate that particular thing
over and over again and it justbecomes part of our overall
toolbox that we can pull from asneeded for different work going
forward.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
I think that's a great point, nathan, because we
want to grow, we want to evolve,we want to create new work, we
want to be in this journey wherewe're just constantly
discovering new ideas and things, but it doesn't mean that we
completely abandon certain ideasand certain things that really
worked for us last year, fiveyears ago, 10 years ago even.
(47:58):
You know, because they're partof you and you don't want to be
creating the same exactpaintings you were making 20
years ago.
Hopefully, you've grown andyou're creating new work, but I
did.
I just did this.
Last month I went through and Iwas going through all my hard
drives and I was organizingthings by year and making sure
all the videos were in place andeach folder was labeled by the
(48:21):
painting for the video that Itook.
And you know all that stuffBecause I have folders for
videos, I have folders forphotos, and then I have them all
separated by year 2014, 2015,20.
And then I have video photo andI was just making sure
everything.
But then I got caught andlooking at the work and going,
oh, I totally forgot about thatlittle thing and, man, I really
(48:45):
think that was a great idea Moveit into the folder of things to
think about folder and Istarted moving all these old
paintings and old ideas in there, forgot about that texture,
forgot about putting that inthere.
I forgot about those things andI went God those were.
Why did I abandon that?
Well, I was growing, I wasmoving and trying new things.
(49:05):
It doesn't mean we don'treintroduce old techniques and
older things that have workedfor us before and by documenting
you have the ability to knowand remember and revisiting them
, armed with all of the newknowledge, new techniques, new
information.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
Who knows where that absolutely from?
There, because of what youthere, because of the
information and ideas you'veacquired and practiced and
executed on in the meantime.
Love it, yeah, absolutely.
That feels like a good place toend for today.
Yes, I'm ready to get in thestudio.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
I'm fired up right now let's go.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
We say this all the time, but we really are just
doing this.
I mean, this is a, this is a a,both a selfless and a selfish
pursuit.
So I get, we get more energizedand excited about what we're
going to do.
Uh, you know, as a result,which is what makes us fun and
and why we're going to keepdoing it.
But I think we've shared abunch of tangible takeaways.
We don't need to spend too muchtime on this, but I think at the
at the very end here, I thinkI'm just going to reiterate what
we had said earlier, which isit's important for all of us to
(50:06):
pay attention to, of course, thework, what we're doing visually
, but also really pay attentionto the practice and the process
and the emotions and thethoughts, the feelings, you know
, some of which might bepositive, but a lot of which are
going to be on the morenegative or self-doubt side.
And just continuing to developour code, our mantra, our way of
(50:31):
thinking about how we make thework, will inevitably lead to us
making better work and pushingour work forward, getting closer
to the best work that we'recapable of making.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
Yep, love it.
I gotta go.
I gotta get in the studio.
I can't take this anymore.
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