July 10, 2025 • 54 mins
What if the path to becoming an artist wasn't shrouded in mystery but illuminated by practical wisdom? In this deep dive into Jerry Saltz's transformative book "How to Be an Artist," we explore the Pulitzer Prize-winning critic's generous, accessible, and remarkably grounded advice for creative souls at any stage of their journey.
"Art is for everyone," Saltz declares, immediately dismantling the barriers that keep so many from pursuing their creative calling. Whether you're wondering if you can be an artist without formal education, while working full-time, or while wrestling with crippling self-doubt, his answer rings clear: "Of course you can." Through our conversation, we unpack how Saltz's decades of observing artists have yielded insights that speak directly to the heart of the creative struggle.
The book's wisdom resonates powerfully throughout our discussion – from embracing the uncomfortable vulnerability of making art to recognizing that "the faster your work makes sense, the faster people will lose interest." We explore why certainty kills curiosity, how imagination forms the very essence of human existence, and why getting productively lost might be the most direct path to finding your voice. Saltz's practical advice – "cast your nets into the waters" of inspiration and "work, work, work" – offers a refreshing antidote to creative paralysis.
Perhaps most encouraging is Saltz's insistence that it's never too late to begin. Through stories of artists who found success later in life (including Saltz himself who didn't become serious about his calling until age 40), we confront the myth that artistic accomplishment requires early specialization. Whether you're just starting out or seeking to deepen your existing practice, this episode offers a roadmap filled with practical wisdom, compassionate encouragement, and the liberating reminder that "nothing happens if you're not working, but anything can happen when you are."
Buy "How to be an Artist" by Jerry Saltz
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Nathan, we've been talking about this for a while
and I'm pretty excited that weare about to embark on what we
think is going to be a prettylong little journey here.
I think this episode is goingto be multiple parts because
there's a lot of meat that we'reabout to go through and discuss
an incredible book by the artcritic, jerry salts, and it is
(00:29):
titled how to be an artist.
I know most of you haveprobably read it or have it on
your list or ordered it, orsomebody has told you to read it
, told you to read it, told youto go on Reddit, or has told you
to read the book and I wouldrecommend just go with the book.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I would say avoid Reddit for this application.
Yeah, avoid Reddit.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
In 2018, I came across an article in Vulture by
Jerry Saltz and it was titledhow to Be an Artist, and at the
time it was 33 rules to take youfrom clueless amateur to
generational talent, or at leasthelp you live a life more
creatively.
And I remember reading thatarticle and it just floored me.
I copied every single thing outof the article and I pasted it
(01:11):
in my notes and embraced everysingle word that Jerry wrote.
And then, a few years later,jerry adds 19 rules and the book
is published, and so I've readit countless times and I teach
out of it in my artistmentorship program as well, and
this is probably the first bookthat I recommend to any artist
who asks me what books do yousuggest to read?
(01:32):
I usually go number one, how toBe an Artist by Jerry Saltz,
and then it's usually StephenPressfield, the War of Art those
are kind of the two and thenArt and Fear by Ted Orlin and
David Bayless, that we've donetwo episodes or three episodes
on before, I can't remember howmany.
Another great book, but forthose of you that don't know
Jerry salts, he's a Pulitzerprize winning art critic.
(01:54):
I'm sure you all know him.
If you don't, you've heard ofhim.
He is the senior critic at NewYork magazine and he is married
to, I would say, the greatestliving art critic currently.
Roberta Smith is married to Iwould say, the greatest living
art critic currently, robertaSmith, and he has three honorary
doctoral degrees and has been avisiting critic at SVA,
columbia, yale Art Institute,chicago the list goes on and
(02:15):
probably the critic who hasembraced social media more than
any critic there is that exists,using Facebook and Instagram to
build a massively engagedaudience around numerous things,
but most of all, art and hisview on things, and he's
definitely a valuable resource.
I've got to hear him at lectures, I've got to meet him in person
(02:36):
and I watch and share hislectures and talks regularly.
So we are going to do our best,as two artists who have been
influenced by his writings andhis views on art and becoming an
artist, to really just do a bigbook report, to go through his
book section by section and talkabout things that have
(02:57):
motivated us, inspired us,things we agree with things.
We disagree with everythinginvolved, and I'm really excited
to go through this.
Are you everything involved?
And I'm really excited to gothrough this.
Are you excited?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Nathan.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I'm so excited Ty.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Thanks for asking.
I'm so excited.
This is a running joke with us.
At some point we may do anepisode where we're like I'm not
really, we're kind of blah onthis one, but we always come in
excited.
That's kind of the idea, yeah,and as with most books that we
talk about and artists that wediscuss, the idea is that we're
(03:29):
pointing you back towards getthis book, read this book,
reread this book, you know.
So we're going to do our best,take and give some examples, too
, about how we've put some ofthese things into practice, both
for ourselves and for you knowothers that we've had a chance
to interact with as well.
But long story short, it's avery I mean, it's super
digestible, right, it'ssomething that you can pick up
(03:49):
and read for a minute or two and, uh, and get a gem for for the
day, and and and roll with that.
So, yeah, I'm, uh, I'm stoked.
The stoke is high.
Okay, stoke is high.
I like that.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Are you ready?
Should we get rolling?
Let's do it.
Okay, we're going to start onthe introduction here, which
doesn't have a number, but itfaces an incredible image of the
amazing Agnes Martin, and thenit kind of goes through Roman
numerals that I just learned howto read right before this call.
Thanks, nathan, for educatingme no problem.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah, I was shocked and amazed to learn that you did
not know how roman numeralsworked so nothing I've ever
really thought about before inlife and I'm ashamed to admit it
surely you've encountered them,though, right like you're, just
like oh, that's not for me.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I don't know what that I don't know what to do
with those yeah, for the sportspeople it's like what superbowl
was that again can't remember.
X, xv1?
, vvi.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Are we buying diamonds now?
What's going on?
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, All right, back to art.
Here we go Back to art.
We're letting the sports sideof us take over again.
Okay, so we're going to startin the introduction, and I love
how Jerry just starts this offwith art is for everyone.
He's just saying listen, thisis something that's for
everybody.
And he goes down at the end ofthe page with a few questions
that artists may be asking orworrying about and it says can I
(05:10):
really be an artist if I didn'tgo to school, if I work full
time, if I'm a parent, if I'mcompletely terrified?
Of course you can.
There's no single road to glory.
Everyone takes a different path, and that's something that we
talk about quite a bit on thispodcast.
It doesn't matter what yourpath is, it's whatever's right
for you that works.
And on the next page he saysmost of these ideas come from a
(05:31):
simple act of looking at art,then looking some more, and from
my own motor memories of myyears as a fledgling artist, and
others come from listening toartists talk about their work
and the struggles.
I've even lifted some from mywife, roberta Smith, as I said,
the greatest living art criticin my eyes.
So he's really gathered hisintuition, his knowledge, his
(05:53):
wisdom, his observations and hisdiscussions with artists over
30, 40 years of time, includinghis time at Art Institute,
Chicago as an artist and onforward and really piece this
book together.
And on the next page, page nine,he kind of says a few things
like, deepest of all, what isart anyways?
Is it a tool the universe usesto become aware, as the painter
(06:15):
Carol Dunham said, a craft-basedtool for the study of
consciousness?
I say yes, and art is all ofthis and more.
And your talent is like a wildanimal that must be fed If you
want to make great art.
It helps to ask yourself whatart is.
And he has a few great littlemoments on page 16, which is X
(06:36):
in Roman numerals there, and hekind of goes through talking
about how artists reckon, withan uncanny feeling that by the
time they've finished a new work, we've often ended up creating
something different from whatwe've set out to do.
This feeling of surprise, ofunexpectedness, can delight or
disappoint us, but when you'recreating, as the painter Bryce
Martin observed, you don't knowwhat you're really going to get
(06:58):
until you finish a new work.
And this book really just goesinto.
Why are you creating?
What are you creating?
How are you creating?
What is this experience?
What are all these fears andquestions and confusions and
things that kind of continuallygo through an artist's head as
they're thinking about?
(07:18):
What am I going to do to makeit or get there or create
something new or be different?
And he says on page 12, ifyou're an aspiring artist, I
want you to remember nothinghappens if you're not working,
but anything can happen when youare, and that's what we're
going to talk a lot about here,and you hear us say that all the
time, nathan and I both.
(07:40):
If you're not working, thingsaren't happening and the working
is in your time.
We're not saying you have to bea full-time artist with 24
hours a day in the studio, orLeonardo drew 14 hours in the
studio.
When you have time to work,make sure you're working very,
very vital.
I'm going to jump in.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
There's one part that you skipped over.
I mean not skipped over, butone part that I want to
highlight on Roman numeral 10.
Doubt is a sign of faith.
It tests and humbles you,allows newness into your life.
Best of all, doubt banishes thestifling effect of certainty.
Certainty kills curiosity andchange.
I could talk about that for anentire episode, and actually we
(08:19):
have an entire episode on thebenefits of embracing doubt and
uncertainty.
As an artist, but I just lovethat Certainty kills curiosity
and change.
Yeah, so I just wanted to.
I wanted to touch on that,because that's that's so, so
powerful.
And he goes on to reinforcethat many times in a lot of the
passages that we're going toread going forward.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Absolutely.
And I think with that certainty, like kind of he says give your
work at least as much time,thought, energy and imagination
as you do other aspects of yourdaily routine.
And it's like with certainty beopen, be uncertain about where
you're going right, be anexplorer, look for things
constantly, be driving andfinding and we talk about that
(08:59):
all the time.
Don't sit down and go yes, thisis exactly where I am, this is
what I'm going to do forever.
It's like no.
Once you shut that door, you'rein trouble.
And he says here on page 13, Iwant you to trust yourself,
because that's what you're goingto need to get through the dark
hours of the creative night.
I want you to open yourself upto what the philosopher
Wittgenstein meant when he saidmy head often knows nothing
(09:21):
about what my hand is writing.
In other words, learn how tolisten and the work will tell
you what it wants.
So start your engines, jump in,fill your imagination engaging
with reality, push awayboundaries and conventions and
changing before your eyes.
Never feel intimidated.
Art is just a container youpour yourself into.
(09:41):
Now get to work.
And you're going to hear thismultiple times.
Jerry likes to say get to work,you big babies, quit crying,
quit whining, quit complaining,just get to work, people.
And so that's what we're goingto do now from this point on, is
we're going to jump into all ofthe things that Jerry's going
to tell you to do when you'regetting to work.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, and the book is broken down into six steps.
So yeah, just sections, butstep one.
You are a total amateur.
Things to think about beforeyou even get started.
Where do you want to jump intotype?
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Let's just jump in.
I love this.
On page three Don't beembarrassed.
Like I get it.
He says making art can behumiliating, terrifying.
It can leave you feelingexposed and vulnerable, like
getting naked in front ofanother person for the first
time.
It can reveal things aboutyourself you might find
appalling, weird, boring orstupid.
And listen, this is coming fromcurrently the biggest art
(10:39):
critic in America.
In the US is telling you thesethings.
Art doesn't have to make sense.
I get that question so manytimes like but what if I don't?
What if it's not understood?
What if people can't?
Really?
No, no, no, art doesn't have tomake sense.
It's like a bird song.
It's made of patterns,inflections, shading and shifts,
all things that have emotionaland perceptual impact, even if
(11:03):
we can never translate theirmeanings.
Every work is a culture scapeof you, your memories, the
moments you spent working, yourhopes, energies, your neuroses,
the times you live in, yourambitions.
Don't worry about if your artmakes sense.
The faster your work makessense, the faster people will
lose interest.
Let go of being good.
Start thinking about creating.
(11:23):
Nathan Jerry Saltz just saidthat.
Right, the very first part ofthe book.
How can that not be one of themost encouraging things that any
artist could hear.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
It's so powerful to just remember like you don't
have to know what you're doing,and resisting the urge to feel
as though you do is one of themost powerful things about
getting started and stayingstarted and continuing right.
You say it all the time thisart game is a long, it's a long
game, it's a long haul.
It's not something that happensovernight, for even the
(11:56):
overnight successes who have, inmost cases, been toiling away
for decades before they,whatever pop right.
One of the earlier secondsentence, third sentence in that
section it can reveal thingsabout yourself that others might
find appalling, weird, boringor stupid.
You may feel that people willthink you're abnormal, dull,
untalented, fine, yep.
So just acknowledging likethat's just part of it.
(12:18):
That might be one of my, one ofmy more most reoccurring things
that I ended up saying that weended up talking about on the
podcast here, but that's justpart of it.
This is just part of the deal.
The feelings that we have, theself-doubt that we have, the
worry that we have.
That's just part of it.
Right, get to work anyway.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, and I love that he says don't be embarrassed,
like you're going to havesituations where it's going to
be absolutely embarrassing.
Yes, you know you're going tohave.
I've had this.
I've had solo shows where I'vedone a lecture and my mom and
dad and their friends showed upand that's it.
After an opening that maybe hada hundred people or 250 people
(12:55):
or 400 people, and then you havethe lecture where you really
get to talk about the work andnobody shows up but your parents
and their friends.
The first few times and a fewtimes I didn't just say once the
first few times that happened Iwas so embarrassed, like,
almost like it's that doubt whyam I doing this If nobody wants
to hear me talk?
What?
What am I doing?
And then I kind of went anotherstep, after honestly reading a
(13:19):
lot of what Jerry said and someother artists, and went you know
what, even if one person showedup or no people showed up, it's
a chance for me to practicetalking about my work.
So I have to take all thepositives out of a negative
situation and rearrange mythought pattern, my thought
process, and then push forwardfrom there, because as an artist
(13:39):
you're going to the amount oftimes you're going to have
moments of embarrassment orfeelings of failure or that's
just part of this, right, that'sbecause we can't have.
We can't not have those momentsbecause they're growth moments
and art is a long growth game.
So you're going to look back onthe years and go, oh man, I was
(14:00):
terrible at that point but I'mglad I stuck with it, because
now I am this much stronger thanI was four years ago.
Think back to your first showall the things you would do
different now compared to then.
It's night and day Thingschange.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Well, it's funny.
You talk about parents andparents friends being.
I was.
I'm thinking back even furtherto before my first show, to when
I just first started sharing mywork on Instagram, and I
vividly remember postingsomething that I was excited
about at the time, and it wouldbe whatever seven likes, one
(14:37):
comment from my mom Love you,mom.
Yeah, Thanks for that.
She's.
She's a big fan of the pot aswell, but, uh, and I was like
all right, you know it, it, it.
It took me back to that placeof just like being a, being a
little kid, and it was just likeall right, hey, mom likes what
I'm doing, but let's be real,Like mom's going to love pretty
much whatever you're doing.
So, while that that supportmeans everything, uh, as in
(15:02):
terms of critical recognitionand praise, doesn't quite carry
the same weight as your peers,necessarily, but at least she's
always there for support,absolutely, absolutely.
Let's move on to the second one.
Imagination is more importantthan knowledge.
That's an Einstein quote.
Imagination is more importantthan knowledge.
I'm going to skip down, I'vegot this highlighted.
(15:22):
This is William Blake.
More important than knowledgeI'm going to skip down, I've got
this highlighted the imagine,this is William Blake.
William Blake said theimagination is not a state, it
is the human existence itself.
So it's not, uh, I just.
I love everything about that,right, but imagination is not
this sort of place that we visit, it's where we live, it is who
(15:45):
we are, it is bait into our veryDNA.
And that, to me, is such animportant reminder that when we
start to think about, oh, how doI start to get creative, how do
I start to make?
It's not a trip we're taking tosome unknown land, it's getting
back to who we are and whowe've always been.
(16:06):
And then the next line, ty.
Creativity is what you do withyour imagination.
Write down your flights offancy, your moments of wonder
and fear, your dreams anddelusions of grandeur, then put
them to work.
So that's the, again areoccurring theme that we will
certainly touch on more thanonce as we go here.
But then put them to work.
(16:26):
Ideas are just ideas,imagination is just imagination.
Creativity in the sort ofgeneral sense is a necessary
component, but none of itactually comes to life until we
get to work.
There's one thing I wanted toadd after you did the intro,
which is now past and come gone,but I was thinking about this
book.
This is what mine looks like.
It's very lovely pink, and Idon't know if this ever came
(16:48):
with a cover or not.
Yeah, it did.
Okay, yeah, I always just takethose off because they're going
to kind of get beat up.
Anyway, I was talking aboutthis book and I have there it is
.
There's the proper title.
If you go and buy it, that'swhat it looks like.
So I was thinking aboutconversations that I've had
about this book and about Jerry.
So I'm thinking back to a.
I was referencing this book inconversation with another artist
(17:10):
, who I will not name, but theysaid why would I take advice
from a non-artist?
Why would I take advice from afailed artist?
Why would I take advice fromsomebody who's not actually, you
know, making art?
And I thought about that for aminute and I thought you know,
we've talked about the creativeact, rick Rubin's book.
We've talked about that one alot, and so I was thinking about
you know, what do?
(17:31):
What do Jerry and Rick have incommon?
So they're both non artists whounderstand artists as a whole
Better than I would argue, or asgood as anyone anyone because
they have so many different datapoints.
They've been around andinteracted with so many
(17:52):
different artists that theyunderstand the artistic practice
.
Jerry understands artists sowell just because you know like.
So you and I, we're experts,hopefully, on our practice,
which oftentimes extends to thepractice of others and art as a
whole.
But at the end of the day, I'mnot really thinking about or
(18:14):
studying what all art.
I mean I am, but the number ofpeople, the number of artists
that I get a chance to interactwith, it's way less, you know,
than Rick Rubin being in thestudio with, with countless
legends, with with Jerry, uh,knowing, interacting with,
reviewing work for, you know,for for decades, and so we can
(18:35):
learn a ton from other artists.
I mean, that's exactly what thispodcast about.
We talk about all the time.
We talk about quotes, videos,you know, books, but each one is
just, is just one Right, and sowhat Jerry's done is
consolidated his experience andhis observations and distilled
it down into sort of the commondenominators that apply to to
all of us, which is what I loveabout this book and that was my,
(18:57):
you know, one of those thingswhere, like you think about a
response after the fact, I thinkmy response in the moment was
like all right, well, you know,cool, no worries, it's not, it's
not for you, not for you.
But you know, having thoughtmore about it, that, I think, is
what is what is so magicalabout how Jerry puts these
things into practice, is that itis.
It's so many differentexperiences and observations and
(19:20):
studying, you know, what art isand how it's made.
Well, listen.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
If you want to be in the art world, you better be
learning from every data pointthat exists.
Art is one thing, the art worldis another thing.
The art world has artists,gallery owners, art dealers, art
critics, curators, collectorsright, there's like an entire
world that exists in thatecosystem.
Yeah, and if you're notlearning from all of those
(19:48):
things, right, you're going tomiss something somewhere down
the road.
And everybody within that is asvaluable as everything else,
because the artist doesn't existwithout them.
They don't exist without theartist.
So you have so many different,flowing and concurrent ideas and
(20:09):
thoughts and processes wrappedup in all that.
The artist needs the critic,the critic needs the artist, the
dealer needs the artist, theartist needs the dealer, et
cetera, et cetera.
But if you're not learning fromeach person's viewpoints, you're
really dumbing down your growthin the long term.
So anybody that says, well,what I want to listen to an art
critic, it's like, well, youbetter be listening.
(20:29):
I'm not saying you have to takeeverything as fact.
And even the best art criticslike Jerry would say what do I
know?
I'm just a dumb New York guytrying to write what I think and
most of the time I'm just anidiot.
He says that all the time.
It's like no, but you need tolisten.
He needed to take in what isfact and what could be truth and
what could be impacted intoyour work, and then throw the
(20:50):
rest out.
That's fine.
Throw the rest out, that's fine.
Yep, that's right.
But it's like anything in theworld If you're not learning
from every viewpoint, how areyou growing as a human being?
You're only growing so far.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yep, you know that's a whole nother podcast, maybe,
probably but this is what we doMake a note of this future
episode.
What's the?
Speaker 1 (21:08):
next thing that you had underlined.
Moving on to page seven, numberthree is that great quote by
Louise Bourgeois that we talkedabout in our Louise Bourgeois
episode.
Tell your own story and youwill be interesting.
I mean, I love that Jerry'shighlighting that and he says
Amen, louise.
Don't be reined in by otherpeople's definitions of skill or
beauty or be cramped by what issupposedly high or low art.
(21:32):
Don't stay in your own lane.
Supposedly high or low art.
Don't stay in your own lane.
Remember that just becauseyou're telling your own story,
you're not automaticallyentitled to applause.
You have to earn the audienceand don't expect to accomplish
that with a single definingproject.
Hear that again.
Everybody Don't expect toaccomplish applause with that
(21:52):
single defining project.
Artists can't capture everythingabout themselves in a single
work or reflect every side ofthemselves in every new work.
You have to be a littledetached from your art enough to
see what you're doing clearly,to witness it and follow it.
Take baby steps and takepleasure in those baby steps.
Even when you're making it up,make it your own.
(22:13):
That's kind of what we justtalked about.
On the other side too, of likeyou're going to have failures,
you're going to haveembarrassments, you're going to
have all these things that don'twork, baby steps.
It's taking time to get to thatpoint and I love that it be
detached a little bit, be alittle removed from what you're
making so that you have room tolisten, to take in critique, to
(22:37):
take in negative things andpositive things, and then gather
them together and then sit backand really look at those things
when they come from theaudience.
When you get there, that's agreat page.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
That line, don't expect to accomplish that with a
single defining project.
It's perfect that Louise is thequote that he has a section off
with right, Because, as wetalked about extensively in our
in our Louise episode, I meandecades, decades and decades of
of work, stacks and stacks of ofof work that she made before
(23:08):
she got anything resemblingproper recognition for the work
that she was doing, Right.
Imagine if she, or any artist,uh, on one of the greats of
history, had just said this isit, and I'm just going to wait
until this, this definingproject gets recognized.
It never would have happenedlike ever.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
No, not.
I've had projects, I've hadbodies of work that I've been so
ingrained in and like this isit.
And then nothing, right,nothing happens with it.
It's just all in storage nowand it's just sitting there and
none of it moved, haven't soldany of it.
And man, I was so confident inthat moment in it.
You know, maybe I was tooattached in the moment to really
see some things, I don't know,but I stayed the course and it
(23:51):
took me to new things, took meto new ideas.
If I hadn't stayed the coursewith that project and been so
deflated by the fact thatnothing happened, it would have
taken me even longer to get tothe next step, yep, which I'm
going to skip.
Do you have anything in pagefour?
I'm going to skip to page five,if not page eight.
There, number four, number four.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
I do actually go for it.
Go so.
Number four recognize theotherness of art.
I'm just going to skip to thebottom.
This Bob Dylan quote is justperfect.
It's like a ghost is writing,except the ghost picked me to
write the song.
Don't let this Jerry's wordsnow, don't let this creep you
out.
Instead, learn to trust it.
And this goes back again, asmany of the things we're going
(24:32):
to talk about today goes back tosomething that we've discussed
a lot.
But it's trusting, it'slistening, it's being that
vessel.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
I think, nathan, that really moves into section five
here, where art is not aboutunderstanding or mastery, being
in that state of flow, thatstate of just letting whatever
just take you, rather than beingso hyper-focused on something.
I love that he says it's aboutdoing an experience.
No one asks what Mozart orMatisse means, or an Indian Raga
(25:03):
, or a little tripping dance ofFred Astaire or Ginger Rogers
cheek to cheek and top hat.
Forget about making things tobe understood.
I don't know what ABBA's musicmeans, but I love it.
Oscar Wilde said the moment youthink you understand a great
work of art, it's dead for you.
Wow, imagination is your creed,sentimentality and the lack of
(25:26):
feeling your foes.
All art comes from love, loveof doing something.
And the very last sentence hesays even if we're in agony
while working, there's stillsome kind of love that drives us
on against the current.
And I tell my artists that havebeen in my program I've said
this to numerous of them when wedo our one-on-ones and we're
(25:46):
talking just about their workand our work Whenever they're
frustrated, I always bring thatup, don't you still love that?
You have the ability to befrustrated about making art.
Yeah, you have the ability togo into a space and make
something that nobody's madebefore, with skills that you
have, with technique that youhave, and you're failing and
(26:09):
you're frustrated and it's notworking.
But how amazing is it that youhave the ability to do that?
Yeah, and the reason you'redoing it is because you love it
so much.
So how can we maintain at leastthe essence of that feeling
more regularly?
That's a question that I askthem quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
It's a hundred percent, it's.
It's embracing the mystery,right, it's, it's, it's just
leaning into.
I don't know, but I might, Imight get closer.
Yeah, I don't know now, I maynot know ever, but it's not
about mastery, it's about doingan experience, and so it's
really leaning into.
I think that that just thatexcitement of discovery, you
(26:54):
know, like you said, just theidea that I don't know what
you're going to do after thisI'm going to get back there and
get after it Same and the factthat something that we touch
today, everything we touch today, will be hopefully something
that's never been made beforeNever Doesn't mean it's going to
be good, doesn't mean it'sgoing to be recognized, doesn't
(27:15):
mean any of those things, butit's never been made before, and
that is just, is just so, soexciting.
And so, you know talk back tothat last sentence even if we're
in agony while working, it'sstill some kind of love that
drives us on against the current, and so to me, that's a really
important reminder of the valueof figuring out how we can I
(27:38):
think I've used this example ina previous episode, but how we
can run on multiple sources.
Yeah, in other words, it's notso much.
I had to learn this early on.
It's not so much a matter ofgetting into a certain state of,
oh, I have to be feeling acertain way to create or to make
good work.
No, no, no.
(28:00):
I have to be present to what I'mexperiencing, what I'm thinking
, what I'm feeling and figureout how to just channel whatever
that is into whatever I'm doing.
Because what that means is thatI've taken myself from, we've
taken ourselves from a place of,oh, I've got to be in a certain
state, I've got to have thesecertain conditions present to be
(28:24):
able to work, and we're takingourselves revolving to a place
of when it's time to work, wejust go to work and whatever
we're, whatever we've got,whatever we're experiencing is
available to us to be, to bechallenged, even when it is
painful, even when, whether,whether, whether the discomfort
(28:48):
or pain or whatever is somethingthat we had, you know, hanging
over us or or brewing inside ofus when we walked in the door,
or, in many cases, if it's aproduct of things not working or
what isn't going well in thestudio.
It's all, it's all.
Fuel, right, it's.
How can, how can I run onmultiple fuel sources?
You know, if I'm only, if I'mstrictly a whatever vegetarian
or vegan or carnivore, orwhatever benefits you may find
(29:12):
from what you choose to eat ornot eat, but from a survival
standpoint, the best survivalstrategy is being able to use
whatever you can get your handson as a fuel source.
If this is edible and if it'sgoing to provide me energy, I
can consume it, or I can, inthis case, acknowledge what's
there, embrace it and let itflow out of me, as opposed to
(29:34):
only being able to run on onespecific fuel source.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
And one way to do that.
As we move into number six here, embrace genre and he kind of
gives a little definition hereof genre is a major factor in
the way we think about art.
The portrait is a genre, and sothere's still lifes, landscapes
, animal painting, historypainting, comedy and tragedy are
also genres.
So are sonnets, science fiction, pop, hip-hop.
(30:01):
It possesses its own formallogic, tropes and principles.
They create usefulcommonalities of response and
place your work in the flow ofhistory.
Mary Wollstonecraft, shelley,invented the modern gothic in a
fever dream of writing thatbecame Frankenstein, and horror
writers have been revisitingthis story of the doctor and his
lonely monster ever since.
(30:23):
What is the difference betweengenre and style?
Style is the unstable essencethat an artist brings to genre.
What ensures that no twocrucifixions say look the same.
Oscar Wilde said that style iswhat makes us believe in a thing
, and I love how he says DollyParton's Jolene is a classic
(30:43):
country story song, but thevulnerability of her performance
is what makes you die insidewhen you hear it.
A fresh style breathes lifeinto genre.
We're all inspired by somegenre of art, all of us.
There's something we love,whether it's neo-expressionism,
abstract expressionism, cubism,portraiture, landscape painting,
(31:05):
installation sculpture,abstract sculpture, portraits I
mean all of these things aregenre and so we're drawn to it
and so our work brings out theseideas of others that have been
done before, that have gonebefore.
But our job is to take a freshstyle and breathe life into that
(31:25):
genre that we're inspired by.
And I love how he said embraceit, embrace the genre, but then
breathe new life into it, thegenre, but then breathe new life
into it.
I'm just going to skip tosection seven here and read the
last sentence real quick,because I think it kind of
follows up well and he saysquestion your assumptions, push
back on them, play around withthem.
Any convention can be turnedinto a great tool, hijacked in
(31:47):
service of your own vision.
And I kind of love how he'spiggybacking that on genre,
because you're working withingenres that have inspired you or
you like, or artists that havekind of influenced you, and he's
like hijack those things inservice of your own vision.
Don't hijack it in service ofde kooning's vision or in lee
krasner's vision.
(32:08):
Hijack things that they've doneinto ty nathan clark's vision
or Nathan Turborg's vision.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
That relates really well to our episode on.
What was the title of thatepisode?
Steal copy, yeah.
Steal copy whatever, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Those words are definitely in the title, which
is just the benefit of stealingaround and really diversifying
our influence as much aspossible.
And yeah, question theassumptions, push back, play
around with them.
Earlier in that section I hadhighlighted convention can be
good or bad.
Used consciously andinventively, it can be beautiful
(32:46):
.
So it's just being intentionalabout the ways that we embrace
convention and, from there, theways that we choose to deviate.
That's where things getinteresting.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Absolutely, and that's part eight and nine cast
your nets into the waters anddevelop forms of practice.
So he's piggybacking thosethings and saying but listen,
you're a diver, you're acollector, you're a shell hunter
looking for inspirations.
Go everywhere, Look ateverything, Find anything you
can Materials, meanings,metaphors Just gather, gather,
(33:21):
gather, gather, gather.
And then, once you gather allthose things in, once you've
learned how to look and then todescribe what you're doing now
draw, now paint, now create,right those forms of practice.
So cast those nets as wide aspossible genre, material,
technique, all those things.
(33:41):
And as you start to gather, nowyou start to develop the form
of your practice.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
A pattern recognition machine and code breaker.
Probing for ideas Even if youdon't know what you're hoping to
find.
Care, probing for ideas even ifyou don't know what you're
hoping to find.
Never stop throwing your netsinto those fundamental waters,
throwing them all.
Haul them back in again, evenwhen they're empty.
That frantic energy, thatperverse need to keep looking
till you can't imagine findingmore, can keep you receptive to
(34:07):
new metaphors, materials andmeaning.
I'm going to share a story I'mprobably going to reference this
conversation I had with a goodfriend of mine, a brother in
recovery who had mentioned to methat he had some ideas and he
wanted to start making work ofhis own.
And he came in.
We did a studio visit earlierthis week and we had a great
conversation and one of thethings we talked about was this
(34:31):
One of the things I shared withhim was you know, really start
to fine tune your antenna, andand by fine tune I mean just
turn it on.
You know, just start looking ateverything, start interpreting
every experience through thelens of what could I do with
this, whether that be materials,experiences, ideas,
(34:52):
inspirations.
You know all of the above.
Materials, experiences, ideas,inspirations.
You know all of the above andit was one of the coolest things
.
He texted me later that day apicture of something that he was
really excited about, somethingthat he had noticed, you know,
while he was out for a walk, andI was like, yeah, that's.
Yeah, man, that's it.
You're looking now, and becauseyou're looking, you're going to
(35:14):
start seeing.
But that's it.
That's what now, and becauseyou're looking, you're going to
start seeing.
Yep, but that's it.
That's what we're talking about.
We throw the nets in the waters.
We think there's fish in there,we hope there are.
Back to our David Lynch episodecatching the big fish.
Just that idea of there's fishin those waters.
And the deeper we go, thebigger the fish are.
(35:36):
But nothing comes in the boatIf we don't cast those nets into
the water and continue to castthose nets continuously, over
and over, even when they comeback empty, the first hundred
hundred tries hey, you know,find a new spot.
Keep throwing that net outthere, because inevitably they
will come back.
They will come back withsomething and, uh, yeah, it's
just, it's repetition alwayswins.
(35:57):
It's being in the game oflooking and seeing and absorbing
as we go, because, whetherwe're conscious of it or not,
that's going to make an impact.
It's going to affect what we doin a positive way.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
And then get lost.
And then just get lost in itall, which is section 10.
And he says predictability isgood for computers but it's
death for artists.
That's pretty good.
Don't get caught in acul-de-sac, don't get stuck in
one little area.
Avoid lingering on thewell-worn path.
(36:32):
You don't want to be a minorexample of someone else's major
style or idea.
It's far better to let yourselfget lost than to never stray at
all.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Yeah, this goes back to that hiking metaphor that I
love to use.
It's just the way that it makessense in my mind.
But it's you know, we start offon the interstate and then we
get off on some side roads andwe pull into, you know, whatever
the state park, the nationalpark, the, anywhere where
there's trails.
We look at the map, we decidewhere we want to start, but then
(37:04):
it's a matter Okay.
So as we go the, the, the path,the route, the trail gets less
and less worn, which means therehave been fewer footsteps there
, and that's when it's time togo explore.
That's when it's time to getoff the path and see what else
is there.
That's where the gems are,that's where, even if it is I
(37:25):
think about this all the timeit's like all right, there's
there, looks like there might besomething interesting over
there.
There's not a path, but I knowwhere the path is so I can go
explore.
We can go see what's what'sover that next crest, what's
what's there.
It may or may not be the thingthat we thought was going to be
there.
Hopefully it's not right.
(37:46):
I mean, that's what discoveryis all about, but in terms of
getting lost, the, the well-worntrail is always there.
So think about our practice.
You know we can deviate, we canstray, and we should
consistently be doing that,trying new things, you know,
following those little veins,those little threads that that
(38:07):
pull us off of what we may havethought we were doing initially,
but we always know where the,where the trail is right.
Hey, okay, I took a left offthe path and got off, got off
into the, into the wilderness.
Well, that means I just need tokeep going right until I hit
the path again and then I canwrite so whenever truly lost is
right.
It's kind of the point, youknow, when he says there's no
road map for art.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
I tell artists I'm like be encouraged.
Yeah, there's no road map forart.
You can make whatever you wantto make.
You can use whatever you wantto use.
You can make whatever you wantto make.
You can use whatever you wantto use.
You can do whatever you want todo.
There's artists and majormuseums that are doing things
that are unconventional.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
They got lost.
The goal is to create apractice that allows a constant
recalibration between yourimagination and the world around
you.
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Let's go.
I mean I'm getting lost rightnow.
I'm doing stuff that.
There's things I did yesterday.
I'm like that's really cheesy.
Yeah, don't know if I like thatShoot, that's all glued on and
I just wasted all that material.
But then I went.
Well, I know from my past thatby working through these things
and getting completely lost inthis, you know I'm going to get
(39:12):
somewhere.
I mean I'm going to getsomewhere.
I mean, I'm literally right now,I'm making these bundles of
yarn scraps and I'm trying and Ifeel like I need to use them in
the work.
So I'm literally like figuringout ways with all the scraps of
my yarn that I'm experimentingwith, like putting it back into
the work, and I'm so lost rightnow.
I'm so lost in it, but I knowthat it's going to get me
(39:36):
somewhere.
I'm gathering, gathering,gathering, trying, experimenting
, and I know, I know, in mylostness I'm going to find
something.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
I know it.
I felt that, I felt that I feellike I need to use them.
Yeah, yeah, you do, I do, Iknow, and even if that net comes
back empty, it's never reallyempty.
I mean, we'll get into that ina future section that I'm
excited to talk about, butthere's no wasted days, but it's
all part of it.
(40:05):
It's all part of it and it'slistening to that voice, that
urge, that compulsion I feellike I need.
Then you do Right, even if itdoes pull you off of the thing
that maybe was going to get workcompleted sooner or get you
that feeling of all right, thisone's done.
That's not the game I'm playing.
(40:25):
It's not the game you'replaying, you know.
I mean, obviously we, we, weare finishing work and being
intentional about, but it'salways continuing to to get lost
.
Yeah, I love that.
Number 11, work, work, work.
The artist sister, mary CaritaKent, said the only rule is work
.
If you work, it will lead tosomething.
It's the people who do all thework all the time who eventually
(40:48):
catch on to things.
I mean that's it right?
Yes, it's, it's that's.
You know.
Getting getting lost is not,you know, taking one step out of
the, out of the vehicle when weget to the trail and saying, oh
where am I?
No, no, no.
There's a lot of steps involved.
There's a lot of, there's a lotof movement, a lot of work, a
lot of momentum that needs to begenerated to get from here to
(41:10):
wherever we may end up towherever we may end up.
But I absolutely, I absolutelylove that.
I mean, that's, it's all rightthere.
It's the people who do all thework all the time who eventually
catch on to things.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Yep, when this?
I love this because for tworeasons.
Number one in art school wewatched a lot of sister Mary
created Kent videos when I wasin art school, so she was
somebody that we were constantlywatching in school.
So, number one I was like ohyeah her.
Oh my gosh, it's been foreversince when I read about this
little quote.
But I figured this out earlymyself, before I read this.
(41:46):
And then I read it and it waslike moved into that foundation
level, right Of your personaldiscipline and I went yeah,
because the more that I've beenworking once I went full-time as
an artist, the more I wasworking, the more I was catching
on to things regularly.
And unfortunately I'm not tryingto point fingers at people who
can't be full-time, because ifyou're an artist, you're doing
(42:08):
something else.
You and I both have sidehustles with our practice.
Our practice is number one, butwe have side hustles that we're
bringing in money as patronageto support our families and
support our practice and thingslike that.
But we do get to spend moretime than most artists in our
studio and I'm not saying thisin a negative way to those that
can't, but I am telling you, themore you work, the more time
(42:32):
you put in, the quicker you willarrive than those who don't.
It's a known fact.
The more time you're able toput into making, the faster Now
we're talking fast and slowterms the faster you will arrive
at things than those who arenot putting in the time and not
(42:52):
working.
You will, because it is aboutthe work.
It really is.
And I love how he says here too,just work and keep working.
That's the method.
That's the method that works.
There's no shortcuts here.
The method that works is justwork and keep working.
And I love a little bit downfurther.
He says it doesn't matter howscared.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
You are, everyone's scared, so get to work.
Everybody's scared.
Find that in the moment.
Or are you interested inaccelerating your learning curve
and getting as close aspossible to your voice and your
work as quickly as possible?
Not that the two are mutuallyexclusive, but they kind of are.
(43:50):
I'll use an example.
So when I was talking to thefriend that I mentioned earlier,
he said, hey, I've got someideas of things I want to, I
want to do, but I, you know hewas really trying to, and, and
he was really trying toconceptualize, like, what the
work was going to look like andwhere it was going to to go.
Once he got to, you know thatthat place or that destination,
(44:11):
and what I was trying to sharewith him was that it's much more
about how much can youexperiment?
How many nets can you cast out?
How, how lost can you get earlyon to even get a foothold
somewhere?
In other words, you just needto know where you're going to
start and, and again, whetheryou've got, you know, 60 hours a
(44:32):
week or 60 minutes on a weekend, how are you going to use that
valuable time, however much timethat is to create, and what's
the focus going to be.
Do you agree with that?
Am I off there?
Speaker 1 (44:47):
No, I think no.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
I'm totally right on, but I just want to hear you.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
No, I think you're right on with that and that's
really everything that Jerry'ssaying.
You know, and it's like I dolove that you're sharing the
story, cause this really fitsinto number 12.
Um, start now, because Joss,coming to these ideas now and
saying, hey, I think I reallywant to do these things, and
(45:14):
then you, everybody's scared.
There's not one single personthat's not scared.
That's an artist and it's like.
But that being scared can stopus from really starting when we
feel like we want to dosomething.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Before you move on, that last quote.
I've got to read that, so thisis an Anne Lamott quote.
Uh, but in chair, start eachday anywhere, let yourself do it
badly.
Just take it one passage at atime.
Get butt back in chair, yep, sothat was really what I was
going for with Joss, was, youknow, take, take the time that
(45:42):
you need to, like, figure outwhere you want to start, what
materials you want.
I mean there, there is aobviously some certain uh, a
level of logistical planningthat's required to even get
going, but get into it as soonas you can.
In other words, don't spend allthis time planning and
conceptualizing what you mightdo, just start doing.
That's the point.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Yeah, well, and this is key too, because I love that
he says here, so many peoplewaste too much time worrying
that it's too late to start.
Or, like you said, gathering,gathering, gathering for so long
, and that gathering justbecomes, you know, a crutch to
actually starting Right, theidea that conceptual is
conceptualization of oh, I'm notready, I need to get any more,
(46:21):
I need more, I'm not ready, I'mnot ready, and then pretty soon,
10 years later, you're stillnot ready.
You know and I love he gives acouple examples here that a lot
of great artists and writers andactors started late.
Henry Rousseau didn't beginpainting until his forties.
Julia Margaret Cameron didn'tbecome a photographer until she
was 48.
One of America's greatestso-called outsider artists, bill
Traylor, a former slave, didn'tstart making art until he was
(46:44):
85.
And it's like start anytime, itdoesn't matter.
Like the art world doesn't seeage, it sees work, sees the art,
it sees the work.
And I'm going to give anexample here and throw one of
our friends out to the wolveshere.
But one of my former mentees,moksananda, who's a dear friend
of ours now, was one of the mostfearful artists I've had in the
(47:07):
program and he started.
He's made art for a long time,but he didn't really get serious
until he retired in his 60s andhe was constantly so frightened
of how much time do I have leftto actually do this?
Is it worth it to really go forit?
I don't know how much longer Ihave left on this earth as I'm
getting older.
I have less time than I'velived.
(47:27):
And is it worth it?
Should I do this?
And really it's been sobeautiful to watch that fear
transform into confidence towhere he's had, I think, four or
five solo shows since he was inmy program three years ago I
think it was three, three and ahalf years ago four or five solo
(47:48):
shows, multiple group shows,and his work is just I you, I
know you would agree it'sabsolutely stunning, like
masterfully stunning, and he hadthe skills.
He had the skills.
He's a painterly painter, buthe hadn't arrived at who he is
yet in his work and there was somuch fear.
There's like do I?
It's like no, start, just gonow.
(48:10):
And then he put in the work andthe work.
And this is where and and andno one mo.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
And then he put in the work and the work.
And this is where, and, and,and no one mocks that we were in
the same mentorship class aswell.
So so I was, I was along forthe ride, you know for a lot of
that, and and I think he's socerebral, he's so thoughtful and
(48:39):
intentional.
I think that now that he's, nowthat he's in a place where he's
there, he's doing it, he'sapplying all of those qualities
as well.
But there is a time whereover-intellectualizing,
over-planning, over-consideringcan absolutely be a detriment.
Yep, yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
So, if you're thinking it, if you've got it,
if you're planning to gosomewhere, start right now.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Start now Get rolling .
Well, jerry's story isfantastic too, so started as
tried to make it as an art.
It's a very abbreviated version.
Feel free to fill in any blanksthat you're aware of, but the
quick version is loved, artpursued art, tried to make it,
had a little bit of momentum andlost.
It stopped, became an over theroad truck driver for for for
(49:20):
quite some time and, uh, didn'treally start writing and doing
what he's met was meant to dountil he was 40.
Yeah, and he writes.
So at 40, I finally got seriousliving proof that it's never too
late and I love that.
I love that about a story, youknow, because that's not unlike
mine.
I didn't really get starteduntil I was about that age as
(49:40):
well, and I had a lot of thosesame concerns, those same fears.
Yeah, what if my best years,what if the best art making
years that might have been, arebehind me?
And I think I've talked aboutthis before, but I think one of
the advantages to starting late.
(50:03):
So if this point, the way thatyou've grown and evolved as a
human being, the experiencesthat you've had, they definitely
do lend themselves to, once youget momentum, really really
(50:28):
finding your stride, I wouldargue like I can only speak from
personal experience, but I, butI'm certain that let's say that
I had taken the more whatevertraditional direct route, gone
to art school and started, youknow, making work in my whatever
full-time post art school in my, in my twenties.
There's no way of knowing,obviously, but I wouldn't have
(50:48):
had that extra two decades worthof, you know, knowing myself
better, understanding my idea ofwhat I might want to
communicate far, far better thanI did, you know, much, much
later in life when I ultimatelystarted.
So there's no, there's no,there's no roadmap right,
there's no perfect path, there'snothing right or wrong about
anything, but if you're in aspot where you're at an age,
(51:10):
you're at a place in life where,oh, maybe it's passed me by, no
, it hasn't.
And the fact that you have donewhat you've done, experience
what you've experienced up tothis point, really is an
advantage much more than adisadvantage.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Yeah, and I think you know another story from another
um, former mentee in my program, alison Hudson, another dear
friend of both of ours.
She has that story too.
She went to art school, she gotan MFA and then, you know, she
ended up getting married, hadkids and went into, became a
decorated baker and cakedesigner.
(51:42):
Um, it was very well known.
I don't know if you know thisstory about Allison.
Yeah, she was a bad-ass cakedesigner and decorator but all
this time, right, art's justlingering, like you know the
things in her head, all thisstuff.
And then finally, years later,after the kids are out, she gets
back into sculpting and getsback into making art.
And I think she just she justhad was in a group show at the
(52:04):
Delaware contemporary museum ofart just recently opened last
weekend, and the work was mindblowing, her work.
I mean, I've been able to watchher evolve and develop over the
years and I always tell artistsI don't think I get any more joy
in life than seeing artistswhose story I'm a part of really
just bloom in their work andget shows and grow to places
(52:27):
that I I imagine they could beand really because they got to
work and but I think all of thattime and experience of life
that had major ups and majordowns for her filled in when she
started really getting to workand going for it and starting.
(52:49):
I think all of those thingsjust compartmentalize and came
into the work and became amotivating factor and increase
that imagination and increasethat story and that voice and
mind blowing.
We'll put a few pictures ofAllison's work up as we're
talking about this and Moxa andthe other artists we've talked
about.
So if you watch us on videoyou'll be able to see some of
(53:11):
the work that we're talkingabout.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
Which, if you're only listening, find us on YouTube
If you want to see our mugs.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
Yeah, YouTube and Spotify.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Yes, and the oh yeah, that's right, spotify does a
video as well, but Ty, editor,tied as a phenomenal job of
adding in a lot of really goodpeople of the artists we're
talking about and, yeah, checkit out.
Well, ty, that sounds like apretty good place to land the
plane.
For part one, we are justapproaching step two in the book
.
So with that, join us for parttwo of the how to Be an Artist
(53:46):
book series written by JerrySaltz.
Thanks for joining us today andcatch up with us for part two
in our next episode.
Get to work, you big babies.
Get to work, you big babies.
Get to work, you big babies.
Nathan, we've been talking about this for a while
and I'm pretty excited that weare about to embark on what we
think is going to be a prettylong little journey here.
I think this episode is goingto be multiple parts because
there's a lot of meat that we'reabout to go through and discuss
an incredible book by the artcritic, jerry salts, and it is
(00:29):
titled how to be an artist.
I know most of you haveprobably read it or have it on
your list or ordered it, orsomebody has told you to read it
, told you to read it, told youto go on Reddit, or has told you
to read the book and I wouldrecommend just go with the book.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I would say avoid Reddit for this application.
Yeah, avoid Reddit.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
In 2018, I came across an article in Vulture by
Jerry Saltz and it was titledhow to Be an Artist, and at the
time it was 33 rules to take youfrom clueless amateur to
generational talent, or at leasthelp you live a life more
creatively.
And I remember reading thatarticle and it just floored me.
I copied every single thing outof the article and I pasted it
(01:11):
in my notes and embraced everysingle word that Jerry wrote.
And then, a few years later,jerry adds 19 rules and the book
is published, and so I've readit countless times and I teach
out of it in my artistmentorship program as well, and
this is probably the first bookthat I recommend to any artist
who asks me what books do yousuggest to read?
(01:32):
I usually go number one, how toBe an Artist by Jerry Saltz,
and then it's usually StephenPressfield, the War of Art those
are kind of the two and thenArt and Fear by Ted Orlin and
David Bayless, that we've donetwo episodes or three episodes
on before, I can't remember howmany.
Another great book, but forthose of you that don't know
Jerry salts, he's a Pulitzerprize winning art critic.
(01:54):
I'm sure you all know him.
If you don't, you've heard ofhim.
He is the senior critic at NewYork magazine and he is married
to, I would say, the greatestliving art critic currently.
Roberta Smith is married to Iwould say, the greatest living
art critic currently, robertaSmith, and he has three honorary
doctoral degrees and has been avisiting critic at SVA,
columbia, yale Art Institute,chicago the list goes on and
(02:15):
probably the critic who hasembraced social media more than
any critic there is that exists,using Facebook and Instagram to
build a massively engagedaudience around numerous things,
but most of all, art and hisview on things, and he's
definitely a valuable resource.
I've got to hear him at lectures, I've got to meet him in person
(02:36):
and I watch and share hislectures and talks regularly.
So we are going to do our best,as two artists who have been
influenced by his writings andhis views on art and becoming an
artist, to really just do a bigbook report, to go through his
book section by section and talkabout things that have
(02:57):
motivated us, inspired us,things we agree with things.
We disagree with everythinginvolved, and I'm really excited
to go through this.
Are you everything involved?
And I'm really excited to gothrough this.
Are you excited?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Nathan.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I'm so excited Ty.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Thanks for asking.
I'm so excited.
This is a running joke with us.
At some point we may do anepisode where we're like I'm not
really, we're kind of blah onthis one, but we always come in
excited.
That's kind of the idea, yeah,and as with most books that we
talk about and artists that wediscuss, the idea is that we're
(03:29):
pointing you back towards getthis book, read this book,
reread this book, you know.
So we're going to do our best,take and give some examples, too
, about how we've put some ofthese things into practice, both
for ourselves and for you knowothers that we've had a chance
to interact with as well.
But long story short, it's avery I mean, it's super
digestible, right, it'ssomething that you can pick up
(03:49):
and read for a minute or two and, uh, and get a gem for for the
day, and and and roll with that.
So, yeah, I'm, uh, I'm stoked.
The stoke is high.
Okay, stoke is high.
I like that.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Are you ready?
Should we get rolling?
Let's do it.
Okay, we're going to start onthe introduction here, which
doesn't have a number, but itfaces an incredible image of the
amazing Agnes Martin, and thenit kind of goes through Roman
numerals that I just learned howto read right before this call.
Thanks, nathan, for educatingme no problem.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah, I was shocked and amazed to learn that you did
not know how roman numeralsworked so nothing I've ever
really thought about before inlife and I'm ashamed to admit it
surely you've encountered them,though, right like you're, just
like oh, that's not for me.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I don't know what that I don't know what to do
with those yeah, for the sportspeople it's like what superbowl
was that again can't remember.
X, xv1?
, vvi.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Are we buying diamonds now?
What's going on?
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, All right, back to art.
Here we go Back to art.
We're letting the sports sideof us take over again.
Okay, so we're going to startin the introduction, and I love
how Jerry just starts this offwith art is for everyone.
He's just saying listen, thisis something that's for
everybody.
And he goes down at the end ofthe page with a few questions
that artists may be asking orworrying about and it says can I
(05:10):
really be an artist if I didn'tgo to school, if I work full
time, if I'm a parent, if I'mcompletely terrified?
Of course you can.
There's no single road to glory.
Everyone takes a different path, and that's something that we
talk about quite a bit on thispodcast.
It doesn't matter what yourpath is, it's whatever's right
for you that works.
And on the next page he saysmost of these ideas come from a
(05:31):
simple act of looking at art,then looking some more, and from
my own motor memories of myyears as a fledgling artist, and
others come from listening toartists talk about their work
and the struggles.
I've even lifted some from mywife, roberta Smith, as I said,
the greatest living art criticin my eyes.
So he's really gathered hisintuition, his knowledge, his
(05:53):
wisdom, his observations and hisdiscussions with artists over
30, 40 years of time, includinghis time at Art Institute,
Chicago as an artist and onforward and really piece this
book together.
And on the next page, page nine,he kind of says a few things
like, deepest of all, what isart anyways?
Is it a tool the universe usesto become aware, as the painter
(06:15):
Carol Dunham said, a craft-basedtool for the study of
consciousness?
I say yes, and art is all ofthis and more.
And your talent is like a wildanimal that must be fed If you
want to make great art.
It helps to ask yourself whatart is.
And he has a few great littlemoments on page 16, which is X
(06:36):
in Roman numerals there, and hekind of goes through talking
about how artists reckon, withan uncanny feeling that by the
time they've finished a new work, we've often ended up creating
something different from whatwe've set out to do.
This feeling of surprise, ofunexpectedness, can delight or
disappoint us, but when you'recreating, as the painter Bryce
Martin observed, you don't knowwhat you're really going to get
(06:58):
until you finish a new work.
And this book really just goesinto.
Why are you creating?
What are you creating?
How are you creating?
What is this experience?
What are all these fears andquestions and confusions and
things that kind of continuallygo through an artist's head as
they're thinking about?
(07:18):
What am I going to do to makeit or get there or create
something new or be different?
And he says on page 12, ifyou're an aspiring artist, I
want you to remember nothinghappens if you're not working,
but anything can happen when youare, and that's what we're
going to talk a lot about here,and you hear us say that all the
time, nathan and I both.
(07:40):
If you're not working, thingsaren't happening and the working
is in your time.
We're not saying you have to bea full-time artist with 24
hours a day in the studio, orLeonardo drew 14 hours in the
studio.
When you have time to work,make sure you're working very,
very vital.
I'm going to jump in.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
There's one part that you skipped over.
I mean not skipped over, butone part that I want to
highlight on Roman numeral 10.
Doubt is a sign of faith.
It tests and humbles you,allows newness into your life.
Best of all, doubt banishes thestifling effect of certainty.
Certainty kills curiosity andchange.
I could talk about that for anentire episode, and actually we
(08:19):
have an entire episode on thebenefits of embracing doubt and
uncertainty.
As an artist, but I just lovethat Certainty kills curiosity
and change.
Yeah, so I just wanted to.
I wanted to touch on that,because that's that's so, so
powerful.
And he goes on to reinforcethat many times in a lot of the
passages that we're going toread going forward.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Absolutely.
And I think with that certainty, like kind of he says give your
work at least as much time,thought, energy and imagination
as you do other aspects of yourdaily routine.
And it's like with certainty beopen, be uncertain about where
you're going right, be anexplorer, look for things
constantly, be driving andfinding and we talk about that
(08:59):
all the time.
Don't sit down and go yes, thisis exactly where I am, this is
what I'm going to do forever.
It's like no.
Once you shut that door, you'rein trouble.
And he says here on page 13, Iwant you to trust yourself,
because that's what you're goingto need to get through the dark
hours of the creative night.
I want you to open yourself upto what the philosopher
Wittgenstein meant when he saidmy head often knows nothing
(09:21):
about what my hand is writing.
In other words, learn how tolisten and the work will tell
you what it wants.
So start your engines, jump in,fill your imagination engaging
with reality, push awayboundaries and conventions and
changing before your eyes.
Never feel intimidated.
Art is just a container youpour yourself into.
(09:41):
Now get to work.
And you're going to hear thismultiple times.
Jerry likes to say get to work,you big babies, quit crying,
quit whining, quit complaining,just get to work, people.
And so that's what we're goingto do now from this point on, is
we're going to jump into all ofthe things that Jerry's going
to tell you to do when you'regetting to work.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, and the book is broken down into six steps.
So yeah, just sections, butstep one.
You are a total amateur.
Things to think about beforeyou even get started.
Where do you want to jump intotype?
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Let's just jump in.
I love this.
On page three Don't beembarrassed.
Like I get it.
He says making art can behumiliating, terrifying.
It can leave you feelingexposed and vulnerable, like
getting naked in front ofanother person for the first
time.
It can reveal things aboutyourself you might find
appalling, weird, boring orstupid.
And listen, this is coming fromcurrently the biggest art
(10:39):
critic in America.
In the US is telling you thesethings.
Art doesn't have to make sense.
I get that question so manytimes like but what if I don't?
What if it's not understood?
What if people can't?
Really?
No, no, no, art doesn't have tomake sense.
It's like a bird song.
It's made of patterns,inflections, shading and shifts,
all things that have emotionaland perceptual impact, even if
(11:03):
we can never translate theirmeanings.
Every work is a culture scapeof you, your memories, the
moments you spent working, yourhopes, energies, your neuroses,
the times you live in, yourambitions.
Don't worry about if your artmakes sense.
The faster your work makessense, the faster people will
lose interest.
Let go of being good.
Start thinking about creating.
(11:23):
Nathan Jerry Saltz just saidthat.
Right, the very first part ofthe book.
How can that not be one of themost encouraging things that any
artist could hear.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
It's so powerful to just remember like you don't
have to know what you're doing,and resisting the urge to feel
as though you do is one of themost powerful things about
getting started and stayingstarted and continuing right.
You say it all the time thisart game is a long, it's a long
game, it's a long haul.
It's not something that happensovernight, for even the
(11:56):
overnight successes who have, inmost cases, been toiling away
for decades before they,whatever pop right.
One of the earlier secondsentence, third sentence in that
section it can reveal thingsabout yourself that others might
find appalling, weird, boringor stupid.
You may feel that people willthink you're abnormal, dull,
untalented, fine, yep.
So just acknowledging likethat's just part of it.
(12:18):
That might be one of my, one ofmy more most reoccurring things
that I ended up saying that weended up talking about on the
podcast here, but that's justpart of it.
This is just part of the deal.
The feelings that we have, theself-doubt that we have, the
worry that we have.
That's just part of it.
Right, get to work anyway.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, and I love that he says don't be embarrassed,
like you're going to havesituations where it's going to
be absolutely embarrassing.
Yes, you know you're going tohave.
I've had this.
I've had solo shows where I'vedone a lecture and my mom and
dad and their friends showed upand that's it.
After an opening that maybe hada hundred people or 250 people
(12:55):
or 400 people, and then you havethe lecture where you really
get to talk about the work andnobody shows up but your parents
and their friends.
The first few times and a fewtimes I didn't just say once the
first few times that happened Iwas so embarrassed, like,
almost like it's that doubt whyam I doing this If nobody wants
to hear me talk?
What?
What am I doing?
And then I kind of went anotherstep, after honestly reading a
(13:19):
lot of what Jerry said and someother artists, and went you know
what, even if one person showedup or no people showed up, it's
a chance for me to practicetalking about my work.
So I have to take all thepositives out of a negative
situation and rearrange mythought pattern, my thought
process, and then push forwardfrom there, because as an artist
(13:39):
you're going to the amount oftimes you're going to have
moments of embarrassment orfeelings of failure or that's
just part of this, right, that'sbecause we can't have.
We can't not have those momentsbecause they're growth moments
and art is a long growth game.
So you're going to look back onthe years and go, oh man, I was
(14:00):
terrible at that point but I'mglad I stuck with it, because
now I am this much stronger thanI was four years ago.
Think back to your first showall the things you would do
different now compared to then.
It's night and day Thingschange.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Well, it's funny.
You talk about parents andparents friends being.
I was.
I'm thinking back even furtherto before my first show, to when
I just first started sharing mywork on Instagram, and I
vividly remember postingsomething that I was excited
about at the time, and it wouldbe whatever seven likes, one
(14:37):
comment from my mom Love you,mom.
Yeah, Thanks for that.
She's.
She's a big fan of the pot aswell, but, uh, and I was like
all right, you know it, it, it.
It took me back to that placeof just like being a, being a
little kid, and it was just likeall right, hey, mom likes what
I'm doing, but let's be real,Like mom's going to love pretty
much whatever you're doing.
So, while that that supportmeans everything, uh, as in
(15:02):
terms of critical recognitionand praise, doesn't quite carry
the same weight as your peers,necessarily, but at least she's
always there for support,absolutely, absolutely.
Let's move on to the second one.
Imagination is more importantthan knowledge.
That's an Einstein quote.
Imagination is more importantthan knowledge.
I'm going to skip down, I'vegot this highlighted.
(15:22):
This is William Blake.
More important than knowledgeI'm going to skip down, I've got
this highlighted the imagine,this is William Blake.
William Blake said theimagination is not a state, it
is the human existence itself.
So it's not, uh, I just.
I love everything about that,right, but imagination is not
this sort of place that we visit, it's where we live, it is who
(15:45):
we are, it is bait into our veryDNA.
And that, to me, is such animportant reminder that when we
start to think about, oh, how doI start to get creative, how do
I start to make?
It's not a trip we're taking tosome unknown land, it's getting
back to who we are and whowe've always been.
(16:06):
And then the next line, ty.
Creativity is what you do withyour imagination.
Write down your flights offancy, your moments of wonder
and fear, your dreams anddelusions of grandeur, then put
them to work.
So that's the, again areoccurring theme that we will
certainly touch on more thanonce as we go here.
But then put them to work.
(16:26):
Ideas are just ideas,imagination is just imagination.
Creativity in the sort ofgeneral sense is a necessary
component, but none of itactually comes to life until we
get to work.
There's one thing I wanted toadd after you did the intro,
which is now past and come gone,but I was thinking about this
book.
This is what mine looks like.
It's very lovely pink, and Idon't know if this ever came
(16:48):
with a cover or not.
Yeah, it did.
Okay, yeah, I always just takethose off because they're going
to kind of get beat up.
Anyway, I was talking aboutthis book and I have there it is
.
There's the proper title.
If you go and buy it, that'swhat it looks like.
So I was thinking aboutconversations that I've had
about this book and about Jerry.
So I'm thinking back to a.
I was referencing this book inconversation with another artist
(17:10):
, who I will not name, but theysaid why would I take advice
from a non-artist?
Why would I take advice from afailed artist?
Why would I take advice fromsomebody who's not actually, you
know, making art?
And I thought about that for aminute and I thought you know,
we've talked about the creativeact, rick Rubin's book.
We've talked about that one alot, and so I was thinking about
you know, what do?
(17:31):
What do Jerry and Rick have incommon?
So they're both non artists whounderstand artists as a whole
Better than I would argue, or asgood as anyone anyone because
they have so many different datapoints.
They've been around andinteracted with so many
(17:52):
different artists that theyunderstand the artistic practice
.
Jerry understands artists sowell just because you know like.
So you and I, we're experts,hopefully, on our practice,
which oftentimes extends to thepractice of others and art as a
whole.
But at the end of the day, I'mnot really thinking about or
(18:14):
studying what all art.
I mean I am, but the number ofpeople, the number of artists
that I get a chance to interactwith, it's way less, you know,
than Rick Rubin being in thestudio with, with countless
legends, with with Jerry, uh,knowing, interacting with,
reviewing work for, you know,for for decades, and so we can
(18:35):
learn a ton from other artists.
I mean, that's exactly what thispodcast about.
We talk about all the time.
We talk about quotes, videos,you know, books, but each one is
just, is just one Right, and sowhat Jerry's done is
consolidated his experience andhis observations and distilled
it down into sort of the commondenominators that apply to to
all of us, which is what I loveabout this book and that was my,
(18:57):
you know, one of those thingswhere, like you think about a
response after the fact, I thinkmy response in the moment was
like all right, well, you know,cool, no worries, it's not, it's
not for you, not for you.
But you know, having thoughtmore about it, that, I think, is
what is what is so magicalabout how Jerry puts these
things into practice, is that itis.
It's so many differentexperiences and observations and
(19:20):
studying, you know, what art isand how it's made.
Well, listen.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
If you want to be in the art world, you better be
learning from every data pointthat exists.
Art is one thing, the art worldis another thing.
The art world has artists,gallery owners, art dealers, art
critics, curators, collectorsright, there's like an entire
world that exists in thatecosystem.
Yeah, and if you're notlearning from all of those
(19:48):
things, right, you're going tomiss something somewhere down
the road.
And everybody within that is asvaluable as everything else,
because the artist doesn't existwithout them.
They don't exist without theartist.
So you have so many different,flowing and concurrent ideas and
(20:09):
thoughts and processes wrappedup in all that.
The artist needs the critic,the critic needs the artist, the
dealer needs the artist, theartist needs the dealer, et
cetera, et cetera.
But if you're not learning fromeach person's viewpoints, you're
really dumbing down your growthin the long term.
So anybody that says, well,what I want to listen to an art
critic, it's like, well, youbetter be listening.
(20:29):
I'm not saying you have to takeeverything as fact.
And even the best art criticslike Jerry would say what do I
know?
I'm just a dumb New York guytrying to write what I think and
most of the time I'm just anidiot.
He says that all the time.
It's like no, but you need tolisten.
He needed to take in what isfact and what could be truth and
what could be impacted intoyour work, and then throw the
(20:50):
rest out.
That's fine.
Throw the rest out, that's fine.
Yep, that's right.
But it's like anything in theworld If you're not learning
from every viewpoint, how areyou growing as a human being?
You're only growing so far.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yep, you know that's a whole nother podcast, maybe,
probably but this is what we doMake a note of this future
episode.
What's the?
Speaker 1 (21:08):
next thing that you had underlined.
Moving on to page seven, numberthree is that great quote by
Louise Bourgeois that we talkedabout in our Louise Bourgeois
episode.
Tell your own story and youwill be interesting.
I mean, I love that Jerry'shighlighting that and he says
Amen, louise.
Don't be reined in by otherpeople's definitions of skill or
beauty or be cramped by what issupposedly high or low art.
(21:32):
Don't stay in your own lane.
Supposedly high or low art.
Don't stay in your own lane.
Remember that just becauseyou're telling your own story,
you're not automaticallyentitled to applause.
You have to earn the audienceand don't expect to accomplish
that with a single definingproject.
Hear that again.
Everybody Don't expect toaccomplish applause with that
(21:52):
single defining project.
Artists can't capture everythingabout themselves in a single
work or reflect every side ofthemselves in every new work.
You have to be a littledetached from your art enough to
see what you're doing clearly,to witness it and follow it.
Take baby steps and takepleasure in those baby steps.
Even when you're making it up,make it your own.
(22:13):
That's kind of what we justtalked about.
On the other side too, of likeyou're going to have failures,
you're going to haveembarrassments, you're going to
have all these things that don'twork, baby steps.
It's taking time to get to thatpoint and I love that it be
detached a little bit, be alittle removed from what you're
making so that you have room tolisten, to take in critique, to
(22:37):
take in negative things andpositive things, and then gather
them together and then sit backand really look at those things
when they come from theaudience.
When you get there, that's agreat page.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
That line, don't expect to accomplish that with a
single defining project.
It's perfect that Louise is thequote that he has a section off
with right, Because, as wetalked about extensively in our
in our Louise episode, I meandecades, decades and decades of
of work, stacks and stacks of ofof work that she made before
(23:08):
she got anything resemblingproper recognition for the work
that she was doing, Right.
Imagine if she, or any artist,uh, on one of the greats of
history, had just said this isit, and I'm just going to wait
until this, this definingproject gets recognized.
It never would have happenedlike ever.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
No, not.
I've had projects, I've hadbodies of work that I've been so
ingrained in and like this isit.
And then nothing, right,nothing happens with it.
It's just all in storage nowand it's just sitting there and
none of it moved, haven't soldany of it.
And man, I was so confident inthat moment in it.
You know, maybe I was tooattached in the moment to really
see some things, I don't know,but I stayed the course and it
(23:51):
took me to new things, took meto new ideas.
If I hadn't stayed the coursewith that project and been so
deflated by the fact thatnothing happened, it would have
taken me even longer to get tothe next step, yep, which I'm
going to skip.
Do you have anything in pagefour?
I'm going to skip to page five,if not page eight.
There, number four, number four.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
I do actually go for it.
Go so.
Number four recognize theotherness of art.
I'm just going to skip to thebottom.
This Bob Dylan quote is justperfect.
It's like a ghost is writing,except the ghost picked me to
write the song.
Don't let this Jerry's wordsnow, don't let this creep you
out.
Instead, learn to trust it.
And this goes back again, asmany of the things we're going
(24:32):
to talk about today goes back tosomething that we've discussed
a lot.
But it's trusting, it'slistening, it's being that
vessel.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
I think, nathan, that really moves into section five
here, where art is not aboutunderstanding or mastery, being
in that state of flow, thatstate of just letting whatever
just take you, rather than beingso hyper-focused on something.
I love that he says it's aboutdoing an experience.
No one asks what Mozart orMatisse means, or an Indian Raga
(25:03):
, or a little tripping dance ofFred Astaire or Ginger Rogers
cheek to cheek and top hat.
Forget about making things tobe understood.
I don't know what ABBA's musicmeans, but I love it.
Oscar Wilde said the moment youthink you understand a great
work of art, it's dead for you.
Wow, imagination is your creed,sentimentality and the lack of
(25:26):
feeling your foes.
All art comes from love, loveof doing something.
And the very last sentence hesays even if we're in agony
while working, there's stillsome kind of love that drives us
on against the current.
And I tell my artists that havebeen in my program I've said
this to numerous of them when wedo our one-on-ones and we're
(25:46):
talking just about their workand our work Whenever they're
frustrated, I always bring thatup, don't you still love that?
You have the ability to befrustrated about making art.
Yeah, you have the ability togo into a space and make
something that nobody's madebefore, with skills that you
have, with technique that youhave, and you're failing and
(26:09):
you're frustrated and it's notworking.
But how amazing is it that youhave the ability to do that?
Yeah, and the reason you'redoing it is because you love it
so much.
So how can we maintain at leastthe essence of that feeling
more regularly?
That's a question that I askthem quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
It's a hundred percent, it's.
It's embracing the mystery,right, it's, it's, it's just
leaning into.
I don't know, but I might, Imight get closer.
Yeah, I don't know now, I maynot know ever, but it's not
about mastery, it's about doingan experience, and so it's
really leaning into.
I think that that just thatexcitement of discovery, you
(26:54):
know, like you said, just theidea that I don't know what
you're going to do after thisI'm going to get back there and
get after it Same and the factthat something that we touch
today, everything we touch today, will be hopefully something
that's never been made beforeNever Doesn't mean it's going to
be good, doesn't mean it'sgoing to be recognized, doesn't
(27:15):
mean any of those things, butit's never been made before, and
that is just, is just so, soexciting.
And so, you know talk back tothat last sentence even if we're
in agony while working, it'sstill some kind of love that
drives us on against the current, and so to me, that's a really
important reminder of the valueof figuring out how we can I
(27:38):
think I've used this example ina previous episode, but how we
can run on multiple sources.
Yeah, in other words, it's notso much.
I had to learn this early on.
It's not so much a matter ofgetting into a certain state of,
oh, I have to be feeling acertain way to create or to make
good work.
No, no, no.
(28:00):
I have to be present to what I'mexperiencing, what I'm thinking
, what I'm feeling and figureout how to just channel whatever
that is into whatever I'm doing.
Because what that means is thatI've taken myself from, we've
taken ourselves from a place of,oh, I've got to be in a certain
state, I've got to have thesecertain conditions present to be
(28:24):
able to work, and we're takingourselves revolving to a place
of when it's time to work, wejust go to work and whatever
we're, whatever we've got,whatever we're experiencing is
available to us to be, to bechallenged, even when it is
painful, even when, whether,whether, whether the discomfort
(28:48):
or pain or whatever is somethingthat we had, you know, hanging
over us or or brewing inside ofus when we walked in the door,
or, in many cases, if it's aproduct of things not working or
what isn't going well in thestudio.
It's all, it's all.
Fuel, right, it's.
How can, how can I run onmultiple fuel sources?
You know, if I'm only, if I'mstrictly a whatever vegetarian
or vegan or carnivore, orwhatever benefits you may find
(29:12):
from what you choose to eat ornot eat, but from a survival
standpoint, the best survivalstrategy is being able to use
whatever you can get your handson as a fuel source.
If this is edible and if it'sgoing to provide me energy, I
can consume it, or I can, inthis case, acknowledge what's
there, embrace it and let itflow out of me, as opposed to
(29:34):
only being able to run on onespecific fuel source.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
And one way to do that.
As we move into number six here, embrace genre and he kind of
gives a little definition hereof genre is a major factor in
the way we think about art.
The portrait is a genre, and sothere's still lifes, landscapes
, animal painting, historypainting, comedy and tragedy are
also genres.
So are sonnets, science fiction, pop, hip-hop.
(30:01):
It possesses its own formallogic, tropes and principles.
They create usefulcommonalities of response and
place your work in the flow ofhistory.
Mary Wollstonecraft, shelley,invented the modern gothic in a
fever dream of writing thatbecame Frankenstein, and horror
writers have been revisitingthis story of the doctor and his
lonely monster ever since.
(30:23):
What is the difference betweengenre and style?
Style is the unstable essencethat an artist brings to genre.
What ensures that no twocrucifixions say look the same.
Oscar Wilde said that style iswhat makes us believe in a thing
, and I love how he says DollyParton's Jolene is a classic
(30:43):
country story song, but thevulnerability of her performance
is what makes you die insidewhen you hear it.
A fresh style breathes lifeinto genre.
We're all inspired by somegenre of art, all of us.
There's something we love,whether it's neo-expressionism,
abstract expressionism, cubism,portraiture, landscape painting,
(31:05):
installation sculpture,abstract sculpture, portraits I
mean all of these things aregenre and so we're drawn to it
and so our work brings out theseideas of others that have been
done before, that have gonebefore.
But our job is to take a freshstyle and breathe life into that
(31:25):
genre that we're inspired by.
And I love how he said embraceit, embrace the genre, but then
breathe new life into it, thegenre, but then breathe new life
into it.
I'm just going to skip tosection seven here and read the
last sentence real quick,because I think it kind of
follows up well and he saysquestion your assumptions, push
back on them, play around withthem.
Any convention can be turnedinto a great tool, hijacked in
(31:47):
service of your own vision.
And I kind of love how he'spiggybacking that on genre,
because you're working withingenres that have inspired you or
you like, or artists that havekind of influenced you, and he's
like hijack those things inservice of your own vision.
Don't hijack it in service ofde kooning's vision or in lee
krasner's vision.
(32:08):
Hijack things that they've doneinto ty nathan clark's vision
or Nathan Turborg's vision.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
That relates really well to our episode on.
What was the title of thatepisode?
Steal copy, yeah.
Steal copy whatever, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Those words are definitely in the title, which
is just the benefit of stealingaround and really diversifying
our influence as much aspossible.
And yeah, question theassumptions, push back, play
around with them.
Earlier in that section I hadhighlighted convention can be
good or bad.
Used consciously andinventively, it can be beautiful
(32:46):
.
So it's just being intentionalabout the ways that we embrace
convention and, from there, theways that we choose to deviate.
That's where things getinteresting.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Absolutely, and that's part eight and nine cast
your nets into the waters anddevelop forms of practice.
So he's piggybacking thosethings and saying but listen,
you're a diver, you're acollector, you're a shell hunter
looking for inspirations.
Go everywhere, Look ateverything, Find anything you
can Materials, meanings,metaphors Just gather, gather,
(33:21):
gather, gather, gather.
And then, once you gather allthose things in, once you've
learned how to look and then todescribe what you're doing now
draw, now paint, now create,right those forms of practice.
So cast those nets as wide aspossible genre, material,
technique, all those things.
(33:41):
And as you start to gather, nowyou start to develop the form
of your practice.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
A pattern recognition machine and code breaker.
Probing for ideas Even if youdon't know what you're hoping to
find.
Care, probing for ideas even ifyou don't know what you're
hoping to find.
Never stop throwing your netsinto those fundamental waters,
throwing them all.
Haul them back in again, evenwhen they're empty.
That frantic energy, thatperverse need to keep looking
till you can't imagine findingmore, can keep you receptive to
(34:07):
new metaphors, materials andmeaning.
I'm going to share a story I'mprobably going to reference this
conversation I had with a goodfriend of mine, a brother in
recovery who had mentioned to methat he had some ideas and he
wanted to start making work ofhis own.
And he came in.
We did a studio visit earlierthis week and we had a great
conversation and one of thethings we talked about was this
(34:31):
One of the things I shared withhim was you know, really start
to fine tune your antenna, andand by fine tune I mean just
turn it on.
You know, just start looking ateverything, start interpreting
every experience through thelens of what could I do with
this, whether that be materials,experiences, ideas,
(34:52):
inspirations.
You know all of the above.
Materials, experiences, ideas,inspirations.
You know all of the above andit was one of the coolest things
.
He texted me later that day apicture of something that he was
really excited about, somethingthat he had noticed, you know,
while he was out for a walk, andI was like, yeah, that's.
Yeah, man, that's it.
You're looking now, and becauseyou're looking, you're going to
(35:14):
start seeing.
But that's it.
That's what now, and becauseyou're looking, you're going to
start seeing.
Yep, but that's it.
That's what we're talking about.
We throw the nets in the waters.
We think there's fish in there,we hope there are.
Back to our David Lynch episodecatching the big fish.
Just that idea of there's fishin those waters.
And the deeper we go, thebigger the fish are.
(35:36):
But nothing comes in the boatIf we don't cast those nets into
the water and continue to castthose nets continuously, over
and over, even when they comeback empty, the first hundred
hundred tries hey, you know,find a new spot.
Keep throwing that net outthere, because inevitably they
will come back.
They will come back withsomething and, uh, yeah, it's
just, it's repetition alwayswins.
(35:57):
It's being in the game oflooking and seeing and absorbing
as we go, because, whetherwe're conscious of it or not,
that's going to make an impact.
It's going to affect what we doin a positive way.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
And then get lost.
And then just get lost in itall, which is section 10.
And he says predictability isgood for computers but it's
death for artists.
That's pretty good.
Don't get caught in acul-de-sac, don't get stuck in
one little area.
Avoid lingering on thewell-worn path.
(36:32):
You don't want to be a minorexample of someone else's major
style or idea.
It's far better to let yourselfget lost than to never stray at
all.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Yeah, this goes back to that hiking metaphor that I
love to use.
It's just the way that it makessense in my mind.
But it's you know, we start offon the interstate and then we
get off on some side roads andwe pull into, you know, whatever
the state park, the nationalpark, the, anywhere where
there's trails.
We look at the map, we decidewhere we want to start, but then
(37:04):
it's a matter Okay.
So as we go the, the, the path,the route, the trail gets less
and less worn, which means therehave been fewer footsteps there
, and that's when it's time togo explore.
That's when it's time to getoff the path and see what else
is there.
That's where the gems are,that's where, even if it is I
(37:25):
think about this all the timeit's like all right, there's
there, looks like there might besomething interesting over
there.
There's not a path, but I knowwhere the path is so I can go
explore.
We can go see what's what'sover that next crest, what's
what's there.
It may or may not be the thingthat we thought was going to be
there.
Hopefully it's not right.
(37:46):
I mean, that's what discoveryis all about, but in terms of
getting lost, the, the well-worntrail is always there.
So think about our practice.
You know we can deviate, we canstray, and we should
consistently be doing that,trying new things, you know,
following those little veins,those little threads that that
(38:07):
pull us off of what we may havethought we were doing initially,
but we always know where the,where the trail is right.
Hey, okay, I took a left offthe path and got off, got off
into the, into the wilderness.
Well, that means I just need tokeep going right until I hit
the path again and then I canwrite so whenever truly lost is
right.
It's kind of the point, youknow, when he says there's no
road map for art.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
I tell artists I'm like be encouraged.
Yeah, there's no road map forart.
You can make whatever you wantto make.
You can use whatever you wantto use.
You can make whatever you wantto make.
You can use whatever you wantto use.
You can do whatever you want todo.
There's artists and majormuseums that are doing things
that are unconventional.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
They got lost.
The goal is to create apractice that allows a constant
recalibration between yourimagination and the world around
you.
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Let's go.
I mean I'm getting lost rightnow.
I'm doing stuff that.
There's things I did yesterday.
I'm like that's really cheesy.
Yeah, don't know if I like thatShoot, that's all glued on and
I just wasted all that material.
But then I went.
Well, I know from my past thatby working through these things
and getting completely lost inthis, you know I'm going to get
(39:12):
somewhere.
I mean I'm going to getsomewhere.
I mean, I'm literally right now,I'm making these bundles of
yarn scraps and I'm trying and Ifeel like I need to use them in
the work.
So I'm literally like figuringout ways with all the scraps of
my yarn that I'm experimentingwith, like putting it back into
the work, and I'm so lost rightnow.
I'm so lost in it, but I knowthat it's going to get me
(39:36):
somewhere.
I'm gathering, gathering,gathering, trying, experimenting
, and I know, I know, in mylostness I'm going to find
something.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
I know it.
I felt that, I felt that I feellike I need to use them.
Yeah, yeah, you do, I do, Iknow, and even if that net comes
back empty, it's never reallyempty.
I mean, we'll get into that ina future section that I'm
excited to talk about, butthere's no wasted days, but it's
all part of it.
(40:05):
It's all part of it and it'slistening to that voice, that
urge, that compulsion I feellike I need.
Then you do Right, even if itdoes pull you off of the thing
that maybe was going to get workcompleted sooner or get you
that feeling of all right, thisone's done.
That's not the game I'm playing.
(40:25):
It's not the game you'replaying, you know.
I mean, obviously we, we, weare finishing work and being
intentional about, but it'salways continuing to to get lost
.
Yeah, I love that.
Number 11, work, work, work.
The artist sister, mary CaritaKent, said the only rule is work
.
If you work, it will lead tosomething.
It's the people who do all thework all the time who eventually
(40:48):
catch on to things.
I mean that's it right?
Yes, it's, it's that's.
You know.
Getting getting lost is not,you know, taking one step out of
the, out of the vehicle when weget to the trail and saying, oh
where am I?
No, no, no.
There's a lot of steps involved.
There's a lot of, there's a lotof movement, a lot of work, a
lot of momentum that needs to begenerated to get from here to
(41:10):
wherever we may end up towherever we may end up.
But I absolutely, I absolutelylove that.
I mean, that's, it's all rightthere.
It's the people who do all thework all the time who eventually
catch on to things.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Yep, when this?
I love this because for tworeasons.
Number one in art school wewatched a lot of sister Mary
created Kent videos when I wasin art school, so she was
somebody that we were constantlywatching in school.
So, number one I was like ohyeah her.
Oh my gosh, it's been foreversince when I read about this
little quote.
But I figured this out earlymyself, before I read this.
(41:46):
And then I read it and it waslike moved into that foundation
level, right Of your personaldiscipline and I went yeah,
because the more that I've beenworking once I went full-time as
an artist, the more I wasworking, the more I was catching
on to things regularly.
And unfortunately I'm not tryingto point fingers at people who
can't be full-time, because ifyou're an artist, you're doing
(42:08):
something else.
You and I both have sidehustles with our practice.
Our practice is number one, butwe have side hustles that we're
bringing in money as patronageto support our families and
support our practice and thingslike that.
But we do get to spend moretime than most artists in our
studio and I'm not saying thisin a negative way to those that
can't, but I am telling you, themore you work, the more time
(42:32):
you put in, the quicker you willarrive than those who don't.
It's a known fact.
The more time you're able toput into making, the faster Now
we're talking fast and slowterms the faster you will arrive
at things than those who arenot putting in the time and not
(42:52):
working.
You will, because it is aboutthe work.
It really is.
And I love how he says here too,just work and keep working.
That's the method.
That's the method that works.
There's no shortcuts here.
The method that works is justwork and keep working.
And I love a little bit downfurther.
He says it doesn't matter howscared.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
You are, everyone's scared, so get to work.
Everybody's scared.
Find that in the moment.
Or are you interested inaccelerating your learning curve
and getting as close aspossible to your voice and your
work as quickly as possible?
Not that the two are mutuallyexclusive, but they kind of are.
(43:50):
I'll use an example.
So when I was talking to thefriend that I mentioned earlier,
he said, hey, I've got someideas of things I want to, I
want to do, but I, you know hewas really trying to, and, and
he was really trying toconceptualize, like, what the
work was going to look like andwhere it was going to to go.
Once he got to, you know thatthat place or that destination,
(44:11):
and what I was trying to sharewith him was that it's much more
about how much can youexperiment?
How many nets can you cast out?
How, how lost can you get earlyon to even get a foothold
somewhere?
In other words, you just needto know where you're going to
start and, and again, whetheryou've got, you know, 60 hours a
(44:32):
week or 60 minutes on a weekend, how are you going to use that
valuable time, however much timethat is to create, and what's
the focus going to be.
Do you agree with that?
Am I off there?
Speaker 1 (44:47):
No, I think no.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
I'm totally right on, but I just want to hear you.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
No, I think you're right on with that and that's
really everything that Jerry'ssaying.
You know, and it's like I dolove that you're sharing the
story, cause this really fitsinto number 12.
Um, start now, because Joss,coming to these ideas now and
saying, hey, I think I reallywant to do these things, and
(45:14):
then you, everybody's scared.
There's not one single personthat's not scared.
That's an artist and it's like.
But that being scared can stopus from really starting when we
feel like we want to dosomething.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Before you move on, that last quote.
I've got to read that, so thisis an Anne Lamott quote.
Uh, but in chair, start eachday anywhere, let yourself do it
badly.
Just take it one passage at atime.
Get butt back in chair, yep, sothat was really what I was
going for with Joss, was, youknow, take, take the time that
(45:42):
you need to, like, figure outwhere you want to start, what
materials you want.
I mean there, there is aobviously some certain uh, a
level of logistical planningthat's required to even get
going, but get into it as soonas you can.
In other words, don't spend allthis time planning and
conceptualizing what you mightdo, just start doing.
That's the point.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Yeah, well, and this is key too, because I love that
he says here, so many peoplewaste too much time worrying
that it's too late to start.
Or, like you said, gathering,gathering, gathering for so long
, and that gathering justbecomes, you know, a crutch to
actually starting Right, theidea that conceptual is
conceptualization of oh, I'm notready, I need to get any more,
(46:21):
I need more, I'm not ready, I'mnot ready, and then pretty soon,
10 years later, you're stillnot ready.
You know and I love he gives acouple examples here that a lot
of great artists and writers andactors started late.
Henry Rousseau didn't beginpainting until his forties.
Julia Margaret Cameron didn'tbecome a photographer until she
was 48.
One of America's greatestso-called outsider artists, bill
Traylor, a former slave, didn'tstart making art until he was
(46:44):
85.
And it's like start anytime, itdoesn't matter.
Like the art world doesn't seeage, it sees work, sees the art,
it sees the work.
And I'm going to give anexample here and throw one of
our friends out to the wolveshere.
But one of my former mentees,moksananda, who's a dear friend
of ours now, was one of the mostfearful artists I've had in the
(47:07):
program and he started.
He's made art for a long time,but he didn't really get serious
until he retired in his 60s andhe was constantly so frightened
of how much time do I have leftto actually do this?
Is it worth it to really go forit?
I don't know how much longer Ihave left on this earth as I'm
getting older.
I have less time than I'velived.
(47:27):
And is it worth it?
Should I do this?
And really it's been sobeautiful to watch that fear
transform into confidence towhere he's had, I think, four or
five solo shows since he was inmy program three years ago I
think it was three, three and ahalf years ago four or five solo
(47:48):
shows, multiple group shows,and his work is just I you, I
know you would agree it'sabsolutely stunning, like
masterfully stunning, and he hadthe skills.
He had the skills.
He's a painterly painter, buthe hadn't arrived at who he is
yet in his work and there was somuch fear.
There's like do I?
It's like no, start, just gonow.
(48:10):
And then he put in the work andthe work.
And this is where and and andno one mo.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
And then he put in the work and the work.
And this is where, and, and,and no one mocks that we were in
the same mentorship class aswell.
So so I was, I was along forthe ride, you know for a lot of
that, and and I think he's socerebral, he's so thoughtful and
(48:39):
intentional.
I think that now that he's, nowthat he's in a place where he's
there, he's doing it, he'sapplying all of those qualities
as well.
But there is a time whereover-intellectualizing,
over-planning, over-consideringcan absolutely be a detriment.
Yep, yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
So, if you're thinking it, if you've got it,
if you're planning to gosomewhere, start right now.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Start now Get rolling .
Well, jerry's story isfantastic too, so started as
tried to make it as an art.
It's a very abbreviated version.
Feel free to fill in any blanksthat you're aware of, but the
quick version is loved, artpursued art, tried to make it,
had a little bit of momentum andlost.
It stopped, became an over theroad truck driver for for for
(49:20):
quite some time and, uh, didn'treally start writing and doing
what he's met was meant to dountil he was 40.
Yeah, and he writes.
So at 40, I finally got seriousliving proof that it's never too
late and I love that.
I love that about a story, youknow, because that's not unlike
mine.
I didn't really get starteduntil I was about that age as
(49:40):
well, and I had a lot of thosesame concerns, those same fears.
Yeah, what if my best years,what if the best art making
years that might have been, arebehind me?
And I think I've talked aboutthis before, but I think one of
the advantages to starting late.
(50:03):
So if this point, the way thatyou've grown and evolved as a
human being, the experiencesthat you've had, they definitely
do lend themselves to, once youget momentum, really really
(50:28):
finding your stride, I wouldargue like I can only speak from
personal experience, but I, butI'm certain that let's say that
I had taken the more whatevertraditional direct route, gone
to art school and started, youknow, making work in my whatever
full-time post art school in my, in my twenties.
There's no way of knowing,obviously, but I wouldn't have
(50:48):
had that extra two decades worthof, you know, knowing myself
better, understanding my idea ofwhat I might want to
communicate far, far better thanI did, you know, much, much
later in life when I ultimatelystarted.
So there's no, there's no,there's no roadmap right,
there's no perfect path, there'snothing right or wrong about
anything, but if you're in aspot where you're at an age,
(51:10):
you're at a place in life where,oh, maybe it's passed me by, no
, it hasn't.
And the fact that you have donewhat you've done, experience
what you've experienced up tothis point, really is an
advantage much more than adisadvantage.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Yeah, and I think you know another story from another
um, former mentee in my program, alison Hudson, another dear
friend of both of ours.
She has that story too.
She went to art school, she gotan MFA and then, you know, she
ended up getting married, hadkids and went into, became a
decorated baker and cakedesigner.
(51:42):
Um, it was very well known.
I don't know if you know thisstory about Allison.
Yeah, she was a bad-ass cakedesigner and decorator but all
this time, right, art's justlingering, like you know the
things in her head, all thisstuff.
And then finally, years later,after the kids are out, she gets
back into sculpting and getsback into making art.
And I think she just she justhad was in a group show at the
(52:04):
Delaware contemporary museum ofart just recently opened last
weekend, and the work was mindblowing, her work.
I mean, I've been able to watchher evolve and develop over the
years and I always tell artistsI don't think I get any more joy
in life than seeing artistswhose story I'm a part of really
just bloom in their work andget shows and grow to places
(52:27):
that I I imagine they could beand really because they got to
work and but I think all of thattime and experience of life
that had major ups and majordowns for her filled in when she
started really getting to workand going for it and starting.
(52:49):
I think all of those thingsjust compartmentalize and came
into the work and became amotivating factor and increase
that imagination and increasethat story and that voice and
mind blowing.
We'll put a few pictures ofAllison's work up as we're
talking about this and Moxa andthe other artists we've talked
about.
So if you watch us on videoyou'll be able to see some of
(53:11):
the work that we're talkingabout.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
Which, if you're only listening, find us on YouTube
If you want to see our mugs.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
Yeah, YouTube and Spotify.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Yes, and the oh yeah, that's right, spotify does a
video as well, but Ty, editor,tied as a phenomenal job of
adding in a lot of really goodpeople of the artists we're
talking about and, yeah, checkit out.
Well, ty, that sounds like apretty good place to land the
plane.
For part one, we are justapproaching step two in the book
.
So with that, join us for parttwo of the how to Be an Artist
(53:46):
book series written by JerrySaltz.
Thanks for joining us today andcatch up with us for part two
in our next episode.
Get to work, you big babies.
Get to work, you big babies.
Get to work, you big babies.
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