From Jan 2024. Dive into the provocative world of artistic "theft" as Ty and Nathan explore how creative innovation truly emerges from our influences. This conversation challenges the myth of pure originality, arguing instead that the greatest artists throughout history have been masterful collectors and transformers of ideas.
Beginning with Japanese fashion designer Yohji Yamamoto's transformative quote—"Start copying what you love... at the end of the copy you will find yourself"—the duo examines how creative development flourishes through strategic borrowing. From Quentin Tarantino's open acknowledgment of film references to David Bowie's musical influences, the most distinctive voices often emerge from those who've absorbed the most diverse inspirations.
They unpack wisdom from creative legends including Jim Jarmusch, Paul Schrader, and Jean-Luc Godard, who all emphasize that true originality lies not in where you take ideas from, but where you take them to. Art movements throughout history—from Impressionism to Abstract Expressionism—evolved through artists stealing ideas from each other while working side by side, proving that innovation rarely emerges in isolation.
What distinguishes mere imitation from transformative theft? When does copying become finding your voice? The conversation offers practical advice for artists at every stage: diversify your influences, document what moves you and why, maintain an "omnivorous" approach to inspiration, and create systems to capture ideas when they strike. Ultimately, the episode makes a compelling case that the most authentic artistic expression comes not from avoiding influence, but from embracing it wholeheartedly.
Follow us on Instagram @ty_nathan_clark and @nathanturborg to continue exploring how creative influences shape artistic development.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
what's going on?
Ty you ready?
Yeah, listen, I don't want tooversell it, but I do have my
creative juices flowing today,nice so awesome, you got this
for me and I'm pretty excited sothe caffeine kicks a little
harder when you drink it fromthe creative juice mug.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Yep, absolutely.
Mine's a little out of reachright now, so I'm just going to
have to weather the storm.
I didn't think about thatbefore I got set up, but I will
say today's topic, I think, isgoing to be full of quotes, not
just one or two.
I think we're going to probablyhave a pretty good-sized
backpack full of quotes.
So, if you're listening, writedown some of the names that you
(00:47):
hear, because there will be somethat you do know and there may
be some that you're not aware of, and we're probably going to
pull from artists, fashiondesigners, writers, poets, art
educators.
I mean, I think we're going tobe all over the board as we talk
about one of my favoritesubjects that at times can be
quite controversial, dependingon where you are in your art
(01:08):
journey, and so we're going togo to Japan for our initial
quote.
That's going to start ourconversation.
Are you ready to roll with that, nathan?
Let's rock and roll, yeah fireaway.
So this quote is coming from oneof the world's most known
fashion designers from Japan,yohi Yamamoto.
(01:29):
Part of my family is Japanese.
My sister-in-law is from Tokyoand she's in the fashion
industry, so I know she'll beexcited about this one.
Yohi is a Japanese fashiondesigner in Tokyo and Paris and
he started out really as amaster tailor alongside some
very well-known tailors andfashion designers and he's won
multiple awards for hiscontributions to fashion.
(01:52):
Born in Tokyo, graduated fromKeio University with a degree in
law actually in 1966, gave uphis legal career to help his mom
in the dressmaking business andI love this story and that's
where he learned how to be atailor, basically.
And then he further went on tostudy fashion design at Bunker
Fashion College and got a degreein 1969.
(02:14):
And this quote I've read inmultiple books, like they seem
to kind of bounce around inmultiple books and this quote
says multiple books.
And this quote says startcopying what you love, copy,
copy, copy, copy and at the endof the copy you will find
(02:39):
yourself and like I said, thisis a controversial subject
amongst artists Stealing,copying, looking at lots of art,
these things can create quitehefty conversations.
How do you feel about this?
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I'm for it, I'm pro-stealing, I'm pro-copying
Like screw it, just go for it.
No, it's not quite that simple,but you've had a lot of
conversations with young artistsin your mentorship program and
I know this is something thatyou talk about a lot.
So let's just maybe start withwhy it's pretty obvious, but
let's just break down why it'scontroversial or what the two
(03:13):
sides of the coin might be.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Well, no artist wants to be labeled another artist.
All artists want to be originaland want to find originality
within their work, and I thinkthe goal of every artist is can
I discover something new?
And you're probably not goingto.
There are new ideas in art,there are new things in art, but
(03:37):
completely rediscoveringsomething new that comes, those
are few and far between in thehistory of art.
Right, we know those names, wehave their pictures on our wall,
their quotes in our books.
But when you want to be a greatartist, you have got to steal
and copy.
That's practice, that'seducating yourself, not just
(03:59):
your brain, but also yourtechnique, your gesture, your
movement, how you paint.
And we're all influenced bysomething Our subconscious
stores the things that we lovein our head more and more.
So, even if you say I willnever copy, I will never steal,
you are copying and you arestealing because your
subconscious is holding on toyour observations and it's
(04:22):
coming through in what youcreate and what I'm saying and
what the quotes we're going totalk about today is saying.
There's nothing wrong with that.
That's how you go from beingokay to good to great, from weak
to strong.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
It's funny when you mentionedthat there's probably only one
artist in the history of historywho can actually claim
originality, and that would bewhichever cave, you know, man or
woman first, you know made themark on the wall, who probably
saw somebody draw with a stickin the sand.
You know before that.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Like but?
Speaker 1 (04:54):
but everything you know from that point forward has
been in some way inspired orinfluenced by by something else
or some other things.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, by something else or some other things.
Well, go ahead.
No, go for it, you go.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Well, what else do you like about like why I know
you love that quote what else doyou love about that Like, break
that down, even, I think, alittle bit further.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Well, you know, we should all know where we want to
be as an artist, but that takestime, right?
No-transcript at everything.
(05:55):
You should still be going tothe galleries and looking at the
best landscape artists inhistory.
Why did they do that?
How did they do this?
If you just go out and set upyour canvas and just start
painting, right, you're going tobe able to paint.
But you still have to learn,and that's why some artists go
to art school.
That's why some artists stayand get their MFAs and do those
things.
You know, as an abstract artist,there are so many artists that
(06:16):
I love and I have this wonder ofhow in the world did Cy Twombly
write the way he wrote oncanvas?
Or how did he do the marks thathe make?
How did Joan Mitchell build hergestures, or build the cooning,
create those gestures in theirwork?
And so you practice thembecause you love them and it
does something to and you wantyour art to be or fit within
(06:39):
that realm of those artists andhow their work looks, and you
have to practice.
So what are you going to do?
You're going to copy right,like Yohi says, or steal.
I'm stealing the way that Psymakes his whatever.
But here's the deal.
This is what I love about thequote At the end of the copy
you'll find yourself.
At the end of it, you'll findyourself Like I just love that
(07:00):
quote.
And then Jeff Goines, the writer, has a book, um, that is called
I have it right here, just so Ium, real artists don't starve.
And there's a, there's a quotethat he has in there where he
says the best artists steal, butthey do so elegantly, borrowing
ideas from many sources andarranging them in new and
interesting ways.
You have to know your craft sowell that you can build on the
(07:23):
work of your predecessors,adding to the body of existing
work.
So you're stealing, but you'redoing it elegantly.
You're borrowing ideas, butyou're rearranging those ideas
in new ways and interesting ways.
I can't tell you how many timesI've heard this and said it
myself, from art schoolgraduates or MFA students Not a
(07:43):
lot of MFA students, but a lotof art grads for sure Especially
when you're young.
I said it I'm not looking atart, I'm not going to go look at
any art, because I want to beoriginal.
And I love this Cicero quotewhere it says to be ignorant of
what occurred before you wereborn is to remain a child.
If you want to mature, youbetter be studying what came
before you.
You better be studying whatcame before you, you better be
looking, and if you really wantto be mature, grab all those
(08:06):
ideas and start to create youover time through all those
ideas.
Right, david Bowie, the onlyart I study is the art I can
steal from Quentin Tarantino.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
I've stolen from every movie ever made.
Yeah, I mean from every movieever made.
Yeah, I mean that's a great oneI don't know I've had a chance
to listen to.
I mean he's a great.
He's a great interview.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
I mean he loves the sound of his own voice.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
He's got interesting things to say, but when he talks
about, like his, hisconsumption of film and the
encyclopedia he is, you know, ofdifferent references is
astounding.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Astounding.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
So like, and his style is distinctive, you know,
to his own, like you know, Idon't think anyone's going to
accuse him of um, you know,being, you know whatever
derivative in a negative way, um, but because he can, he's
consumed so much and paidattention and studied.
You know what he loves fromdifferent elements of film.
That's what has, you know, tothe original quote.
(09:05):
Copying, copying, copying, justbeing influenced, absorbing,
you know, different ideas anddifferent styles and different
influences led him to what hasbecome, you know, one of the
most distinctive and most copiedstyles that there's ever been,
right.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
And he gives it credit, right.
Here's a difference.
Yeah, the difference is theartist who steals and copies and
claims it as completely theirown ideas, right, and it looks
just like X, y and Z's work,right.
So that's where Jerry Saltzwould say copy, steal, copy,
(09:40):
steal.
Keep trying, show it to afriend.
If your friend tells you itlooks just like somebody else's
work, keep going, bring it backto him again.
If over time, they're stillsaying it looks like somebody
else's work, go find anotherthing to do.
You just don't have it.
But I love like.
But Quentin Tarantino, he givesit credit, right.
(10:01):
Spaghetti, westerns, the oldKung Fu films, seven Samurai,
like he'll literally name.
This is where I got this.
This is where I got this.
I don't know if you've everwatched the side-to-side
comparisons of Wes Anderson'sinfluences and scenes in his
films.
It's magical Peanuts.
He was a huge Peanuts fan.
He was a huge Peanuts fan.
(10:21):
So there's scenes in his filmsthat are literally taken from
Charles Schultz cartoons andrepresented within the scene.
French films, a lot of Frenchfilms.
You can watch on YouTubeside-by-side comparisons of his
influences with certain scenesin his films and he's given
shout-outs, right.
Yeah, you've influenced me.
(10:42):
I give shout-outs, you knowwhat I mean, man, there's a lot
of sigh in this work and it cameout because I've been reading
all of his books and so it'scoming out in there, and I've
had people wow, that piece lookslike a side twombly piece.
Oh, that piece looks like anantony tapas piece, and I say
thank you so much for that.
They're one of my heroes and itdefinitely came out in my work
(11:03):
and I'm proud of it, so right.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yep, yeah, no, that's powerful.
Wes Anderson uh, another greatexample of, like a super
distinctive signature style.
But not, you know, he didn'twake up one day and just just,
it didn't just come out rightout of nowhere, it was a product
of, um, what he had collectedover time.
All right, I'm gonna throw oneout.
(11:27):
You're way ahead of me.
So this is one of my favoritequotes um, on this, on this
subject, and um.
This is a quote by paulschrader, who's a screenwriter,
director, uh, worked withscorsese on four different films
, including Raging Bull, taxiDriver, last Temptation of
(11:49):
Christ, american Gigolo.
Most recently did the CardCounter.
Have you seen that yet?
I haven't watched it yet.
It was Oscar Isaacs, right, isthat who?
Yeah, it's fantastic, yeah, andthen first performed with Ethan
Hawke from a couple of yearsago.
It was another, another awesomeone, but I didn't realize this
until I did a little homeworkhere.
He's from Grand Rapids,michigan, and graduated from
Calvin college, so I'm prettysure, uh, he's, uh, he's one of
(12:12):
my people, one of my Dutch,dutch descendants settled in.
Grand Rapids, michigan.
So anyway, here's a quote.
He said, um, and this is uh,I'm not going to read the entire
thing, but he referencesnumerous films that had
influenced, and this is aninterview after First Reform
came out.
He said I was stealing all overthe place.
The secret of stealing is thatyou have to steal around.
(12:34):
You can't go back to the same7-Eleven every time they catch
you.
So you go to the floral shop,then you go to the gas station,
then you go to that hot dogstand that nobody goes to, and
you keep grabbing this stuff andeventually somebody will think
you made it up.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I just love that, right.
So I mean, it's just.
It's just, you just think about, you know, somebody who's
literally going from store tostore and, and you know, trying
to diversify their uh, you knowwhere they're, where they're
pulling things from, but I justlove that.
And that's actually from apodcast that I would recommend
the Moment with Brian KoppelmanReally good podcast, but that
was an interview that he didback in May of 2018.
(13:12):
So that whole interview isfantastic, but I love that quote
because you just think aboutbeing diverse in your influences
.
I mean, this is going to be acommon theme, right.
If you pull from just one thing, then it is kind of just like
you know that one thing.
You know one of the things Iwant to ask you about, cause
you've talked about this.
You know as well, but early inyour art career, where you were,
(13:34):
you know, hard and heavy on onBasquiat, right?
Oh, and how did that what Imean?
So let me ask a better questionhow did that what I mean?
So let me ask a better questionhow did that sort of you know
evolve over time from and Idon't want to put words in your
mouth, but from what I?
What my understanding was thatwas your predominant, you know,
or primary influence to now.
(13:55):
You know, however, many yearslater, where it's a lot more
diverse and you've stolen frommore stores.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
I mean, we didn't know whoBosqueiat was in the 90s.
If you're in New York and youwere in the art scene, you knew
who Basquiat was.
If you were in places where theart scene was big, you knew who
Basquiat was, but he wasn't.
You know, jean-michel was notyour Jackson Pollock name at the
time in the 90s, right Like wein art school, we all knew who
(14:21):
Jackson Pollock was.
We didn't know who Basquiat wasand he wasn't talked about.
Well, the wonderful film byJulian Schnabel about Basquiat
came out, the narrative film,and it rocked my world, like
completely rocked my world.
I had no idea whatneo-expression is or was at that
time, no clue.
I didn't know who JulianSchnabel was.
I didn't know who any of the.
I didn't even know who theinformalists were at that time,
(14:43):
like, I had no idea.
I knew abstract art, abstractexpressionism, the things I
loved and they're the typicalnames that you would know, right
, an abstract art or abstractexpression.
And I love Dadaism, I lovesurrealism, those things as a
young, you know art student and,honestly, when I saw the film
Boschia, I don't know whathappened to me, Like something
(15:04):
inside, about this person who Icouldn't at that time I could
not name a black artist ifanybody asked me to.
And that is horrible.
And it wasn't just that Ididn't know any black artists,
they weren't being taught about.
Nobody knew Like it was.
Nobody was teaching about anyblack artists at that time in
(15:27):
art history books.
Right, this is terrible.
And so man diving and paintingon wood and building frames like
stretchers, like he did, Iemulated him and I started
(15:50):
writing around campus with chalkand markers.
I started writing my own quotes, my Samo-type quotes, and my
favorite quote from the film orone of his old Samo graffiti
pieces, was Samo for president,samo's political ideology, like
all the things that he wouldwrite all over New York with his
buddy Al Diaz.
And I started writing thingsand making up my own quotes.
(16:13):
Art is an oven at 450 degrees in15 minutes, like making up my
own things and writing Samo forprez, and my nickname kind of
became Samo for prez, and so itwas like it just, and everything
I did was that kind ofneo-expressionist style.
But that's what really excitedme about art and how I could
express myself in this way wasspray paint and oil sticks and
(16:36):
things I never even thought touse in art and I mean, that was
my, that was my big intro forsure, and I copied everything.
It didn't look just like it,but it looked.
You could tell.
Oh, he likes Basquiat.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Right, right, yeah, yeah, and I think that's
important to.
I mean, you got to startsomewhere, right, I mean.
But one of the things that youyou mentioned to me was, or that
you just said that that, uh,that really landed was just how
one thing leads to another,right, so maybe that film was
what led you to, you know,looking into the novels, right,
um, and I think it's importantto, if there's a um, you know,
(17:09):
probably a few differenttakeaways from today, but that's
one of the things that I thinkis really important to emphasize
is the value of chasing yourcuriosity and just going where
those rabbit holes lead, youknow, because one thing leads to
the next thing leads to thenext thing and, um, I mean,
there's there's never been abetter time to to be omnivorous
in your consumption of differentinfluences, right, like you
(17:32):
know, youtube's pretty damn goodat guessing.
You know, when you look at onething there, you know what I
didn't know.
I wanted to see that, but Iactually did and thank you very
much.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Instagram is terrible at it.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
As good as YouTube is .
That's about how bad Instagramis, that's.
That's, that's very, very true.
But, um, it just chased thoserabbit holes, you know, and and
and chased down you know where,where, where it might, because
it may be the original thingthat you stick with.
That becomes a major influence,but it's, it may be the third,
fourth, fifth, 17th thing downthe line that actually ends up
being, you know, a moresignificant.
(18:06):
You know long term, you knowinfluence.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah, and here's a quote that I love by Jean-Luc
Godard it's not where you takethings from, it's where you take
them to right, and that I lovethat.
Run that back.
I want to hear that again soit's not where you take things
from, it's where you take themto, because I mean, I look at so
much art, man.
(18:29):
I look at so much art and Iread about so much art every day
and I'm taking bits and pieceswith me from every section that
I read off.
And and what do I do?
I spent, you know, four, five,six, eight hours in the studio
every day painting, and I've gotthis collection of ideas and
techniques and how people usemedium and how they created, why
(18:53):
they did this, what size, whatscale, what material Like.
I've got all these things inthere that I'm grabbing and
taking and, oh my gosh, paper oncanvas, on paper, on cardboard.
But it's not about who I'mtaking it from.
It's like, where am I goingwith it?
And over time the goal is overtime it becomes you.
But you're also furthering theripple of water of what was
(19:16):
created before and you're takingit in places that maybe could
have never gone before.
Another quote I love by GaryPanter says, and it goes with
this one if you have one personyou're influenced by, everyone
will say you're the next whoever, but if you rip off a hundred
people, everyone will say you'reoriginal.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Yeah, well, and that's so important too.
Actually, I got two things.
I may be able to hold on toboth of them, I may not.
All right, I want to.
I don't want to forget this, soso talk.
So what your previous quote asfar as, uh, you know where you
take things to?
Um talk about how everysignificant movement, with very
(19:57):
few exceptions, came from agroup of artists who spent a lot
of time together, who spenttime in each other's studios,
who would show one another theirwork and would respond to Right
.
So, um, talk more about that.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, I mean go back and read art history and you'll
find those groups right, you'vegot, um.
I'll just go to theimpressionist Manny Monet, degas
(20:31):
, burt Madette, all around eachother's studios, all seen each
other's work, um, and allinfluenced the direction of
impressionism, which I thinkwe've talked about in a past
podcast.
But most people don't know thatBurt Madette, the female, was
one of the largest influences onthat group of men.
Right, and it's like the thingsshe started doing in painting.
They saw, they loved, theystole her ideas.
You know what I mean, becausethey're all in each other's
studios every day.
Wow, look at that, let's dothis, I'll do this Now.
They got credit for it.
(20:52):
She's starting to get creditfor it today, but they got the
most credit for it.
They're the most notable.
But it influenced what changedart at that time.
You know you fast forward, evento the Surrealists.
Get together and they createtheir own manifesto.
If you're going to createSurrealism, you must sign on the
dotted line and it must followthese things right.
You got the Dadaists, you gotthis group of artists.
(21:13):
You've got, you know, theabstract expressionists from New
York that all hung out togetherand spent time together and
influenced each other, and I canread so many artists from the
20s, from Joe Miro and all theguys around him.
We're like we're just trying tobe Picasso, like we were all
trying to be Picasso.
We copied everything he did fora while because we wanted to be
like him, and it's funny thatthe history of art is shaped by
(21:37):
these things and these movements.
Right, it's a group of artistsstealing ideas from each other,
you know, and working together,and obviously there's ugliness
that is a part of that as well,but it is how things become
developed over time.
But some of them havesimilarities in their work, but
you can tell who is who as well,because all those ideas still
(21:58):
came from them and all they weretaking.
They continued to develop theirown style out of these things
they were taking and stealingfrom.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Well, that's the other big thing that's worth
discussing.
On this, there's only one youthat's going to process and
express those influences acertain way.
Yep, it could only come fromyou at a certain point, when
(22:32):
you've looked to enoughdifferent sources.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Well, and the great educator and artist John
Baldessari said I think it'scopying when you don't add
anything to it.
Sure.
You know, and that's what you'resaying, right it's, you're
taking these ideas and you'redeveloping your own style out of
it.
You know we work on this a lotin my mentorship program, you
know, as artists are like well,I don't know what my voice is, I
(22:56):
don't know where I am.
Well, what do you love?
Yeah, I don't know what myvoice is, I don't know where I
am.
Well, what do you love?
Yeah, what work do you love?
You know what I have artistslike well, I don't know, but
this is what I feel, this is theart that I'm drawn to, and it's
like well, maybe you're more ofa minimalist than you are an
abstract expressionist, becausethe thoughts and the things
you're telling me fit more underminimalist ideas and things
(23:18):
than really heavy, thick,abstract expressionist ideas.
And that artist will go andthen study minimalism and go,
wow, yes and no, right, I dofeel this, but I also want to
express deep opinions and things.
Maybe I'm an abstractminimalist, right, and you kind
(23:39):
of create your own.
You know where you're going andwhat you're doing.
I've got another artist in aprogram right now who you know
is dealing with studying traumaand neuroscience, things like
that, and she's kind ofdeveloping her own terms for
what she is in her art and whatshe creates, and we're looking
(23:59):
at all these other artists andinfluences and practicing the
things that they do to turn theminto your ideas and into your
practice, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Well, it totally does .
Yeah, and one of the thingsthat, um, that I definitely
learned, um from my time in theprogram with you was how and
we've, we've, this has come up alot.
I suspect it probably will alot going forward as well.
But just that whole idea ofgetting permission to do it
because hey, so-and-so did it,yeah, right, like why, you know,
(24:32):
now, I'm not claiming to be asgood as whatever artist I might
be citing, whatever artists Imight be citing, but the fact
that they did it gives mepermission to do it as well and
to try it and to integrate itinto everything else that I'm,
that I'm taking in, right, well,um, good, and I mean, you know
we say that all the time.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
there's no nose in art.
Yeah, if you have the idea, ifyou like something, go do it.
Don't.
Don't wait for somebody to saythere's a right way and a wrong
way.
Now, on a material basis,there's a right way and a wrong
way.
Certain materials don't go withcertain materials Oils, acrylics
there's a right way to use it,there's a right way to.
You know what I mean.
So it's like materials isdifferent, but as far as ideas
(25:14):
what you want to create, how youwant to create it there are no
no's.
And if you spend time studyingart, you will realize there are
no no's.
So you know you've got a lot ofcrazy conceptual things that
happen out there that you canargue is an art, is art whatever
.
But they're not taking no foran answer.
(25:35):
They are creating what theyfeel like they should create and
putting it out into the worldand it's either accepted or it's
not.
But they're putting it out intothe world and it's either
accepted or it's not.
But they're putting it outthere and the boldness that
comes along with that is a wholenother.
Conversation for anotherepisode.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
I'm going to throw another quote out.
Yeah, um, that kind of pertainsto that.
This is by a Chris Doe, who isuh, are you familiar with him?
By the way, he's?
He's a great follow on YouTubeand Instagram.
He gives a lot of.
He's a designer and filmmaker,but he gives a lot of like,
really tactical input on how tomarket, how to sell, how to just
talk about your work and beproperly compensated for it.
(26:10):
So a lot of really good gems.
I recommend following him.
But he said this is a recentquote, I think I pulled from
Instagram but he saideverything's a remix To make
something new, copy combine andtransform, copy combine and
transform something old intosomething new.
(26:30):
Say or show something old in anew way.
And I think this, this kind of,speaks to the value of, of not
just diversifying yourinfluences within the art space,
for example, but also lookinglike inspiration is everywhere.
I mean when your radar is uplike it's all over.
Whatever you're into, there'ssomething in there.
Yeah, probably a whole bunch ofthings that you can, you know,
(26:51):
sprinkle in.
Maybe it's obvious, maybe itappears, or maybe it's just
something that you're becauseyou're taking in new things,
because you're a student of lifein general and just absorbing a
diverse set of information andinfluences, it's going to affect
you positively, right?
So it's funny as I, as I'mreading that just now, I'm
thinking about like music andyou know what?
Uh, you know when hip hopstarted to sample, you know
(27:13):
different things from, fromprevious.
You know eras from the sixtiesand the seventies specifically,
like that became the hook andthat became a thing, and taking
something totally old nottotally old, but something from
whatever generations previousand giving it a brand new spin,
which in some cases is, you know, much better known than the
original.
You know source material, right, yeah, but that's because,
(27:36):
again back to the, the, theTarantino reference, because you
know those artists wereconsuming a bunch of different
work, I want to stick with musicbecause you and.
I are both big fans of music,but I don't have a specific
reference here.
But you think about the numberof times that you hear one of
your favorite artists whenthey're asked who their
influences are, and they'll saysome obvious ones where you're
(27:58):
like, oh yeah, I totally hearthat.
But then you'll also hearsomebody like what?
Like yeah, that's totally, youcan't hear that in their sound
at all.
And I guess my point is thethings that, as visual artists,
the things that we take in itmay or may not express itself,
you know, in the work, but thatdoesn't mean that the influence
isn't there, right?
Speaker 2 (28:33):
And because we're taking those things in, it's
giving us a deeper well to kindof music.
Do you listen to what rockbands he's like I don't listen
to rock.
I don't listen to much musicoutside of classical or old
barbershop type, quartet typemusic and things.
And he would even say,obviously we weren't a rock band
, led Zeppelin, we were morejazz fusion.
(28:54):
He didn't even listen to rockand roll, didn't care for it.
You can't tell me that theclassical music and the things
he didn't listen to didn'tinfluence the progressions and
the timing and the things thatthey were doing at that time in
music.
That was different than so manyother people and still last
today.
On that there's a quote byMarcel Duchamp and he says you
(29:17):
think you're actually doingsomething entirely your own and
a year later you look at it andyou actually see the roots of
where your art comes from,without even knowing at all.
So the artist who is doingtheir homework over time will
prove they've done theirhomework, so to speak, right.
(29:38):
And there's plenty of quotes wecould go into on.
If you're only working withyour ideas, you're not going to
go very far.
But if you're working with awhole lot of ideas, everybody's
ideas and you're doing yourhomework.
Your work has ultimate room forgrowth.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
So I've definitely heard it just in conversation.
I've definitely heard artiststalk about how they genuinely
believe that that they have comeup with something completely
original.
I don't know how many I don'twant to use the word famous, but
successful.
Whatever well-known artists youknow would would claim that,
(30:16):
but there's some right.
So I wonder what's the case tobe made for trying to insulate,
go in the opposite direction,right?
The case for not copying?
The case for really trying togenuinely just come up with
something that is truly original?
Is there a case to be made forthat?
Because we're both clearly onteam copy and steal, right?
(30:40):
So let's talk about the otherside of the coin.
I would say good luck.
Is there a merit to thatargument is my question.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
I would say good luck , number one.
I hope you do it, because thatwould be amazing In my lifetime.
To see somebody createsomething completely new and
original would be fascinating tome.
But nobody's going to get therewithout copying.
Like every single artist inhistory who's developed
something new was copyingsomebody else at some point and
stealing from somebody else atsome point that helped them
(31:10):
transition to where they went.
You look at every facet of arthistory through time post, cave
painter that created theircolors from grounds and spit
them on a wall.
And I love when Jerry saltstalks about the, the origins of
art and the way things worked.
But it's like post that time.
It's stealing, copy and thengrow into your own.
(31:33):
So every, every major movementand art, you look at those
artists and then you look fiveyears prior to them changing the
face of art.
They look like somebody else orone of their hero's works,
right, I mean, that's anythingin life.
That's music, that'splaywriting, that's filmmaking,
that's anything in the creativearts, that's dance.
(31:55):
Right, there's been constantforms and evolution in dance,
and I think breakdancing,hip-hop, stomp, like all these
different new forms of dancethat have started to show up on
TV, show up in films and thingswhere they haven't been
recognized before.
They're still coming fromancient forms of dance, from
(32:15):
African tribes, dance fromthroughout history that start to
form cultural happenings andevolutions within it.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Yeah, I mean I'm sure we're going to get some
pushback in the comments andresponses to this.
I would love to ask thatanybody that wants to make a
case for that we're certainlyinterested in hearing it but
cite your sources, like we likeI'd love I mean we, we would
love to hear you know what wouldbe your examples, not just the,
not just being opposed to theidea, but also supporting that
(32:45):
with um, you know some, someartists and creatives that have
that have done that.
You know we talk about howthere's never been a better time
to to educate yourself and tobe influenced by you know a
number of different things.
There's also never been aneasier time for somebody to just
steal stuff like literally graban image and repurpose it.
Like we're not pushing for that.
(33:05):
That's completely differentthan what we're talking about.
Just as a full disclaimer, right, this is another quote that
came up when I was so.
Speaking of rabbit holes isanother quote that came up when
I was looking for that.
Paul Schrader quote, woodyAllen.
Well, I've stolen from the best.
I mean I've stolen from Bergman, I've stolen from Groucho, I've
stolen from Chaplin, I'vestolen from Keaton, from Martha
(33:25):
Graham, from Fellini.
I mean I'm a shameless thief,but again citing your sources
and just owning it like yep.
You know I've been influencedby a lot of different things.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I'm going to piggyback with another filmmaker
, since we're this is a quoteheavy episode.
This is from Jim Jarmusch, thegreat indie New York filmmaker
who has been around the New Yorkart scene for a long time with
fine artists visual artists, notjust musicians and filmmakers.
He says nothing's original.
Steal from anywhere thatresonates with inspiration or
(34:00):
fuels your imagination.
Devour old films, new films,music, books, paintings,
photographs, poems, dreams,random conversations,
architecture, bridges, streetsigns, trees, clouds, bodies of
water, light and shadows.
Select only things to stealfrom that speak directly to your
soul.
If you do this, your work andtheft will be authentic.
(34:21):
Authenticity is invaluable.
Originality is non-existent,and don't bother concealing your
thievery.
Celebrate it if you feel likeit.
In any case, always rememberwhat John Luke Goddard said it's
not where you take things from,it's where you take them to.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Yeah, that to me is just that really reinforces
something that you said earlier,which is, you know, cite your
sources, you know honor, youknow the nods and the homages
you know that you're making toother artists.
And funny, I think I wasinteracting with somebody on
Instagram recently and he hadsome beautiful work and I just
commented on this and he, he wasa uh, a newer, you know younger
artist and I say that'sbeautiful, like I definitely see
the you know X influence inthat, and he said, oh, I, just
someone just mentioned that tome, you know, the other day and
(35:10):
I was like, really, so I have noreason not to, not to, not to
believe them, you know.
But I think it's important torealize that some of the
influences that we have are veryconscious, but there's plenty
of others that you're soakingstuff up on a subconscious level
regardless.
So might as well educateyourself and give proper
(35:31):
recognition to where thosethings are coming from.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Well, and I think we talked about just proving that
you do your homework, man, thatstands out.
I'm sorry, but the artist whogoes to museums, goes to
galleries on a regular basis,studies art, is just fascinated
and endowed completely into artoutside of their studio practice
(35:56):
.
Not just in the studio practice, but outside it shows.
Not just in the studio practice, but outside it shows.
I mean, if I'm a curator andyou put an uninformed artist
next to an informed artist and Ihave to choose which artist to
do a solo exhibition with in mygallery or in my museum and I go
and meet with this artist anddo a studio visit and talk about
(36:18):
art and influence, the artiststoo can prove their homework.
That can talk through thesethings.
That can.
I'm not saying educated right,I'm not saying school like MFA,
undergrad.
You can self-educate and learntoday as much as you can in an
undergrad and MFA program.
You just have to take the timeto do it.
(36:38):
So if I'm a curator and I'm ina space with the person and
they're informed about theirwork and why they do it, how
they do it, who they study, whatartists have influenced, what
they're doing, where they'vecome to and the other artist who
takes five minutes to justexplain their work.
I'm sorry, I'm going with theinformed artist.
I mean, and there's more tojust being a studio artist if
(37:00):
you want to be in the galleryworld.
There's more than just creating, there's also learning, there's
also showing up as well.
Trust me, it goes far.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Yeah, and that's something too, I think, where
you have the ability to just getyourself in more conversations,
right when you're contributing.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
Just get yourself in moreconversations, right when you're
contributing.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
But also where you're absorbing and learning and it
opens up a dialogue.
I wonder if you wouldn't mindsharing an example or two
because I know you have with meand other conversations, but
where you've had a chance toopen up some of those dialogues
when you're at a museum, whenyou're at a gallery and just
where that's opened the door tohave a new conversation and
build a new relationship.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Well, my, my first solo exhibition in Charlotte,
north Carolina.
My mentor came out to the show.
Mako Fujimura, a Japanese,american abstract artist
brilliant, definitely, look himup, possibly read a few of his
books as well, if you want toread came to the show.
But we gave a lecture, a publiclecture, one day, with a big
(38:04):
curator from the North Carolinaarea who has been a curator at
major museums contemporarymuseums brilliant woman, and you
know.
We walked the gallery togetherand she asked tons of questions
about my art, tons Archivalquestions.
Right, every major curator froma museum is going to ask
Archival questions.
Right, every major curate froma museum is going to ask you
archival questions.
(38:24):
And why is your work archival?
Why is it not?
What are you using?
Is that archival?
Like things like that?
Right, but also, I see someinfluence here.
Yes, this influence is comingfrom here, and she was doing it
right, she was not leading me.
She was like prove yourself.
Those moments are going tohappen in art.
You're going to have peoplethat are going to just talk with
(38:45):
you and you have others who aregoing to come in and say prove
yourself.
And so be prepared.
And luckily, I was prepared, andso we were able to talk about
these influences and how I'vechanged them and how they've
adapted in my work.
Why am I sewing?
Why am I not using these things?
What are the reasons for that?
Not just story, but I'mbringing art history, but we
gave a lecture the next day tothe community to talk about
(39:09):
these things.
It made that lecture a loteasier.
Here I am with my mentor on thepanel right, who is a very
educated artist who speaks allover the world about art and his
work and how he creates and whyhe creates, and then this
curator on the panel as well,and I was included in that
(39:29):
conversation.
I could actually answer andtalk and I could hold my own in
conversation.
And it's not because I'm somegenius, it's because I study.
I actually spend time in mystudio studying work, going to
museums, going to galleries,asking questions, talking to
artists on Instagram or on Zoomor whatever, and just
(39:50):
surrounding myself with art anyminute I have.
And I'm a nerd.
I'm an art nerd, a hundredpercent.
But it helps.
It does help in thosesituations, career wise.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Well, and that's that's a great case to be made
for.
So you talk about your mentor.
That's a great case to be madefor just proactively seeking out
influences and getting yourselfaround people who know more
than you, right, Like I've beenvery open with you about part of
my motivation for doing thiswith you is.
it's going to motivate me, youknow, to educate myself better,
to learn more, and you knowyou've been at this longer than
(40:23):
I have, so I'm learning from youevery, every conversation.
You know that that we haveright.
So you know that's, I think, aproduct of just being willing to
ask the question of hey, can?
think a product of just beingwilling to ask the question of
hey, can we whatever dot dot dot, interact more?
Can I throw questions your way?
I mean, I think that that'spart of the response.
I don't want to sayresponsibility, that might be a
little bit too strong, but of anartist or ever creative is to
(40:48):
to, to be aware that I keepusing that.
I keep coming back to that ideaof having your radar up.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
But to look for other , you know, mentors, peers, I
mean whatever you want to callit but just people in your life
who are going to to push youforward, who are going to
motivate you, who are going toinspire you to, you know, raise
the bar and keep.
You know, moving things forwardright and adding to the
conversation, as opposed to just, you know, pulling from it.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
I'm still growing.
I mean I'm.
I haven't made it, made itright, I'm trying, like that's
my goal, you know.
Whatever that looks like, Ijust want to be able to support
myself and continue to grow andmake art, and so I don't have
all the answers, I'm stilllearning.
You know all these things and Ithink and there's another quote
I was looking for here that Ihad that really kind of goes oh
(41:37):
yeah, don't worry about peoplestealing your ideas.
If they're any good, you'llhave to ram them down their
throats.
Anyways, howard Aiken who saidthat, howard Aiken, don't worry
about people stealing your ideas.
If they're any good, you'llhave to ram them down people's
throats anyways, howard Akin,and the reason I'm saying that
(41:59):
is because the reason I startedmy mentorship program.
I believe apprenticeship,mentorship, the willing to give
advice and help is a lost arttoday and, I think, especially
in the art world.
It's something that used toexist for centuries the
apprentice, the master, theteacher, the student.
And there's so much fear in theart world that artists are
(42:23):
afraid to share ideas.
Artists are afraid to say wheretheir ideas come from.
Artists are afraid to open upto the 15-year-old kid that
loves your work and send you anInstagram message how did you do
this?
What materials did you use?
Why do you do it?
And they don't answer.
You know, I've kind of myself,I've kind of made a personal
(42:45):
statement of I'm not going to bethat person.
I'm going to be the person thatanswers the questions, that
shares ideas, that's willing andthat's open to teach and help
others learn, because the artworld is scary and everybody
doesn't know where it's goingand how it works and it's
constantly changing and adaptingand there's new rules,
unwritten rules, and there's newthings to do that happen all
(43:07):
the time.
Do something wrong, you dosomething right.
You don't know, it changesovernight, Like I guess I just
made up a poem, an art poem, um,but it's like, who gives a shit
if people steal your ideas, ifyour ideas are?
good they're going to be stolennumber one yeah if your ideas
are good, somebody's going tosteal them, so that should be a
confidence builder.
Wow, I must have done something, because a ton of people are
(43:30):
starting to do this.
But how do you really knowpeople are going to steal your
ideas and how do you really knowif it's good in the first place
?
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Well to me that I'm sorry.
Keep going.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
I cut you off.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
No, go for it, go.
I just I got so excited.
To me that comes down to youknow.
Are you thinking about thingsthrough the lens of abundance
versus scarcity, right?
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Like in other, words.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
You know if, if, if you're worried about somebody
copying your, you know, whateveryou got going on, you're
probably in a static mode rightOf like this is kind of my thing
and it's and that's fine.
I mean there's, there's not thesame thing.
You know against that approachto, uh, to art making.
But I think that, just morebroadly, you know thinking about
(44:16):
if you approach your art and Iwould argue you know life as
well um, from an abundancementality versus a scarcity
mentality.
It's a completely differentparadigm in terms of how you
think about things.
Right, like, you know, I alwayscome back to some of the, you
know, recovery principles.
You know that I've had tounderstand very well from a
12-step standpoint.
(44:37):
But you know, one of thesayings in AA is you can't keep
it unless you give it away.
Right, like, in other words,you know you sharing that.
You know with that, you know15-year-old kid, like that
energizes you.
I mean even just you explainingthat.
You know I've had that even asas young as I am in this whole
process.
You know even that experiencethat I've had of, you know,
because I like to experimentwith a lot of different, you
(44:58):
know materials and processes Iget DMs about oh, how does this
behave and what is?
Even just having to explainthat and answer those questions
it deepens my own understanding,you know.
It forces, it, forces you, itforces me to think about like,
oh, what is, how am I doing that?
Or what is you know?
So it's a, it's a, it's areciprocating, you know sort of
(45:20):
sort of cycle, completeownership of any it's.
It is just that sort of broad,you know collection of things
that you've absorbed, you know,over time.
I think about, um, you know, uh,again back to just diversifying
(45:44):
influences.
You know from all my time inthe business world you know
there's a lot of different.
You know writers and books thathad I been on the artistic you
know, full-time artist path, youknow from the beginning I never
would have been exposed to butone of those guys.
Uh, uh, authors.
You know Tony Robbins, but oneof my favorite Tony Robbins
quotes is success leaves clues.
Success leaves clues.
(46:04):
In other words, all right, thisworked for somebody.
Yeah, presumably at a highlevel, if you're aware of it.
So what are the clues?
What are the commondenominators and how can you
connect some of those seeminglydisparate concepts you know in a
novel and unique way?
The only way you're going to beable to connect those dots is
(46:26):
if you're freaking, payingattention to what is working for
other people, not just in thespace that you're trying to be
successful in, but broadly right, just paint Interesting, what
about that works for that person?
What about this thing over here?
Could I apply to this thingthat I'm doing over here?
Because I think the more randomor the more out there that
(46:51):
connection, know that thatconnection might be, the more
novel it's going to appear whenyou, when you bring it to a
different space, you know, youthink about food, for example,
right, like I don't know whenexactly the whole I think you're
more of a foodie than I am, butwhen the whole, you know, trend
of of fusion came out, right, Idon't know when that was, but
maybe it's been around for along time, it, but maybe it's
(47:19):
been around for a long time.
It probably hasn't before itwas even called that, right.
But when we're combining, youknow these, these different um,
you know ethnic cuisines and andseasonings and things like that
, oh my gosh, when you combine Aand B now, you get something
that's completely unique butthat comes from absorbing,
consuming a lot of differentinfluences and paying attention
to what about this works overthere and what might I be able
to apply over here.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
Right.
Well, and you know to piggybackon your Robbins quote of
success leaves clues.
I'll also add that failureproves you're trying, and I love
we were discussing thismentorship group this last
Saturday.
Sylvia Plath had a quote thatsaid all of my rejection letters
proved to me, in trying, youknow, and it's like you know,
(48:00):
taking that a step further islike if you're successful in
becoming you through all yourcopy and your theft of things,
like there will be clues of whyyou're being successful.
Right, all those things, butthen also you still, in order to
get there, you got to putyourself out there.
You know what I mean, and inthe art world there's a lot more
failure than success.
(48:20):
So, thinking about Sylvia Plath, talking about her recognizing
that she's trying by herrejection letters, right, so for
her books, for her poetry andputting them out there to
publishers and constantlygetting rejected, right To her.
That proves I'm doing something, I'm trying.
(48:42):
You know, when we talk aboutsuccess, leaving those clues,
you know that failure I mean youhave to put it out there.
You have to try to fail first.
Right, to find some success,especially in you know pretty
much any of the arts.
You're going to get a lot moreno's than yes's most of the time
, but a lot of artists don'teven put stuff out there in a
(49:03):
manner that they're going to getrejected or find success.
You know, and that's you know.
We got to spend all that timefinding us and everything else
out there that we love andconstantly putting those pieces
together to form the work thatwe are confident enough in it
being our work and not just copyof so much other work.
(49:26):
Right, and then we put it outthere and see.
You know how the audience, howthe art world, takes, and
sometimes it might be you gotmore work to do and other times
it might be wow, this isfantastic and this fits, and
we're going to run with you.
So don't let rejection spoilwhat you're doing in the studio
and how you're pushing andlearning and working.
(49:48):
Don't let those.
I experience it every month.
I feel like like rejection forsome level in the art world and
it'd be very easy for me to getdown on myself and not continue
to study and not continue tocopy and practice and grow in my
work.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
You know, that brings up a whole nother element of
this which is worth talkingabout.
I didn't think about it tilljust now.
But just, you know, not justfear forgive me not just
rejection, but fear of rejectionor, in the context of this
conversation, fear of beingcalled out for, you know, being
too derivative, or whatever termyou might want to use, of
copying or, or, you know,stealing.
You know, in the uh, in thenegative sense, right Like
(50:27):
that's a thing.
Sure, it's certainly somethingthat that I've experienced, you
know a lot, especially when I'm,I'm, and and that's certainly
something that I've experienceda lot, especially when I'm
intentionally exploringsomething that I've gotten
picked up from another source.
There is that fear of like.
Oh well, and I think to yourpoint earlier.
I'll ask you too if there'sanything you would add to this.
(50:49):
But you said something to theeffect of just making sure that
we're citing our sources, thatwe're being open about.
Yep, I'm influenced by this andand not trying to hide from it,
but actually owning it andcelebrating that.
You know, did I understand thatcorrectly from what you
mentioned before, or in part one, probably?
Speaker 2 (51:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, talking about likethose things.
I finished my first novelduring the pandemic and it took
me 13 years to write because Iwould stop and then I'd work on
it again and I'd stop, I'd workon it again over the years and
my goal is art.
So I'd definitely beinterrupted with a lot of art
making and then sitting down towrite.
There's tons of ideas within mynovel that I've taken from
(51:26):
other artists, my favoritewriters, David Eggers, Nick
Hornby, the poet, Mary Oliver,and then my favorite fiction
writers, and from my favoritefilmmakers, from Wes Anderson
and from stories that I loveCharlie Kaufman, screenwriters
and things.
And William Burroughs says allwriting is facts.
Just cut up, it's a collage ofwords that you've read or that
(51:47):
are overheard and so it's like.
But when I wrote my queryletter for publishers, I also
have to put in this letter whatis this book like?
What are the similarities?
I cite my sources.
I'm not going to hide from.
I wanted to start writing booksafter I read High Fidelity by
Nick Hornby.
I want to write because of, andI'm taking all these ideas and
(52:10):
facts and things I've gatheredand the way other guys have
written and the way that othergals have written and I combine
it into how I wrote.
Same thing with art, but it wasfor me.
It was just another newlearning experience of that copy
, that theft, that how to begreat at something you do by
taking the wealth of informationthat others have done before
you and then finding your voicewithin that, Totally.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
Yeah, that's a perfect segue into the uh.
One of the last quotes that Iwanted to share and this is one
of my favorites that I just cameacross yesterday because I went
down the rabbit hole because Iwas preparing for this
conversation.
So this is a quote by Paul Rand, the legendary designer, uh,
who said the artist is acollector of things, imaginary
or real.
He accumulates things with thesame enthusiasm that a little
(52:54):
boy stuffs his pockets.
The scrap heap and the museumare embraced with equal
curiosity.
He takes snapshots, makes notesand records impressions on
tablecloths or newspapers, onbacks of envelopes or matchbooks
.
Why one thing and not anotheris part of the mystery, but he
is omnivorous.
And uh.
(53:16):
There's a couple of things fromthat, based on what you just
said, and and and uh, that Iwant to add as well.
But to your point, like you mayor may not ever be a, it may or
may not be your goal, I don'tknow to to be a, you know
published, you know author, orto to take, I don't know how far
you want to take that, but I doknow about you, that you know
you've been involved in filmthat you, you know, produced an
(53:37):
award award-winning documentarythat you're involved in in
writing and um, and I think thatthere's so much to be said for
for just trying different things, even if it's not going to be
your thing, right, like sure.
I think about just thecompletely random interest in
things, that that or you canconnect the dots, you know.
I think about how you know mypassion for you know,
(54:00):
photography and videography, howthat lends to my understanding
of composition and understandingmy exploration and my attempt
at understanding composition andlighting, you know, and things
along those lines.
But one hand always washes theother right, like it's
impossible to sort of, you know,separate out.
Oh, this is just, you know,writing, this is just writing
(54:23):
tie.
This is just filmmaking tie,this is just artist tie, or even
broadly, even beyond, you know,in things that may or may not,
on the surface, have anything todo with anything else.
You know we're, we're collecting, we're stuffing our pockets.
You know whether it comes fromthe scrap heap or the museum,
you know it doesn't even matter.
And the thing I love about thatis the very last word
(54:44):
omnivorous.
In other words, I can take, Ican take meat, I can take fruit,
I can take vegetables, I cantake any food, anything edible,
and I can convert that into fuel.
Yeah Right, yep.
As opposed to if you're limitedto just one specific food
source, survival becomes a lotmore difficult.
(55:06):
So I love that idea of justbeing an omnivorous consumer,
just being an omnivorousconsumer, and the part of this
as we kind of begin to wrap upand think about what we can do
with this or what might be.
The tactical application to meis taking snapshots, making
notes, recording impressions,capturing those things as they
come along, so that it's in thewell right.
(55:28):
So there's a subconsciousabsorbing of just things that
sort of wash over us andinfluence us without our
necessarily seeking it out orthinking in those terms.
But to me, this quote here is areminder that it's also
incumbent upon us as creators,as artists, to be intentional
about capturing those things,about writing those things down,
(55:50):
about taking those pictures andI've got random folders and
notes and things like I mean itain't organized.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
I love it.
I love it if it was, butthey're there.
Speaker 1 (55:59):
you know and and I'm sure you've had, actually I know
you have the experience oflooking back at journals and and
capturing little things thatwere influencing you.
You know years, I mean, I knowyou know a current work is based
on, you know poetry, that youwrote what 20 years plus ago, 25
years ago, right, so anyway.
So I just I think it'simportant for us to be aware of
yep, we're going to absorb somethings just naturally by
(56:20):
consuming them, but we also needto be aware that there's a lot
of value in proactivelycapturing those things and
writing those things down.
Yep, your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (56:30):
Yeah, I mean that's my life, that's what I do.
So it's like.
I mean I have amassed books,photographs, pictures, folders
on my desktop, folders in mydesk drawer, journals, notebooks
.
I should probably invest insticky notes because I've got
(56:50):
thousands of these all over theplace and all my books are just
lined with arrows and notes andnote cards within books.
And my favorite thing aboutgoing to art museums is going to
the art museum library if theyhave it.
Some art museums have massivelibraries of books and I go
through the museum and then I gointo the library and I grab,
(57:14):
and then I go into the libraryand I grab and I make a stack on
the table and I have my phoneout and I'm just taking
snapshots of everything thatspeaks to me.
Right, this collection of ideas.
And we should be mentalhoarders as artists and I truly,
truly believe that, becausethat influences our work and
informs how we talk and thinkand create and all these things,
and I mean that's all I doevery day.
(57:34):
I mean I'm blessed to be ableto do that and it's taken me a
long time to get to this point,to be able to hoard regularly
ideas and art and consume thesethings in such a way that helps
me create out of the chaos,which I have a quote I want to
read about Lewis Hyde, one of myfavorite books, the Gift.
I suggest every artist readsthe Gift and it talks about
(57:57):
really kind of the history ofart coming from a gift, like a
tradable gift that was used inancient history to kind of
commissioned work rightMichelangelo, and being hired as
a trade things, and then to artas a commodity and how to
balance that art is truly stilla gift but yet it also is a
(58:19):
commodity and how do you balancethat between the two.
So I suggest everybody go outand buy that book.
So this quote says Most artistsare brought to their vocation
when their own nascent gifts areawakened by the work of a
master, an influence.
That is to say, most artistsare converted to art by art
itself.
(58:40):
Now, finding one's voice isn'tjust an emptying and purifying
oneself of the words of others,but an adopting and embracing of
affiliations, communities anddiscourses.
Embracing affiliations,communities and discourses
Inspiration could be calledinhaling the memory of an act
never experienced.
Invention, it must be humblyadmitted, does not consist in
(59:04):
creating out of the void but outof chaos.
So what he's saying at the endthere, invention, the
originality, the newness, the,your voice, that is your work
and does no longer look justlike other pieces of work.
It looks like your work.
It does not consist in creatingout of the void, the just
(59:27):
yourself, the just this, thejust this.
It comes out of the chaos, thehoarding, the collecting, the
ravaging of thoughts and ideasfrom so many other things and
other cultures and other.
All of that is where inventioncomes from, Not out of the void
of just trying to do it aloneand by yourself.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
That's pretty deep Very deep.
Speaker 2 (59:48):
There's a lot there, a lot there Very deep.
Speaker 1 (59:51):
That could be a whole .
We could have a number ofspinoff episodes of just this
topic alone.
I suspect that we'll probablyend up coming back to it.
Speaker 2 (59:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
You know, and at some point as well I was trying to
find that actually made me thinkof another quote that I wanted
to find specifically there's aScott Adams who's responsible
for most notably Dilbert youknow, the I don't know how long
that that um cartoon has beengoing, but I remember him.
(01:00:20):
I think it was on the TimFerriss podcast.
But he talks about how he's notthe best.
I'm paraphrasing based on mymemory.
But I'm not the best artist.
They're way better, you know,artists than me or people.
People draw much bettercartoonists.
I'm not the funniest there's.
There's people who are way, way, you know, way better at comedy
and much funnier.
(01:00:41):
But the combination, but I'm,I'm okay, I'm pretty good as an
artist and I'm I'm pretty funny,and so it's the combination of
those things right.
So it's kind of that Venndiagram of influences and life
experiences too, where I mean,like I've kicked myself, I spent
some time, you know, in in allthe you know 20 plus years that
(01:01:02):
I spent, you know, really in thebusiness world and not really
doing much of anything with art,you know, and I did for a
period of time have some regret,like man.
I, you know where, where, wherecould I be, you know, had I just
taken the more you knowtraditional route to, to, to, to
get to here, um, you know, andand I didn't spend too much time
there because I quicklyrealized it all, it all leads to
(01:01:24):
this, right, all, the, the, the, the, the Venn dot.
It's not just two circles,right, it's, it's a number of
different.
You know things and experiencesand influences, right, like you
know, I use a lot of.
You know constructiontechniques and materials.
You know, in in my work, I'm ashitty.
You know a trades person, right, like, ain't nobody hiring me
to do anything, but you know,maybe haul haul some heavy stuff
(01:01:45):
around and even that is thatthat windows probably passes.
I hate here, but you know, but Iknow enough about, like, kind
of how to, how to use differentmaterials and how to use
different.
You know different techniques.
I mean, that's just one exampleof many, but you know, to your
example of your, your experienceand your knowledge base as a
writer, you know your experienceand knowledge base.
You know that you spent inmarketing and advertising and
(01:02:07):
those types of things.
Right, like it all.
It all leads to wherever you'reat today and how you're going
to filter that's a great,another great way of that.
I like to think about it howyou're going to sort of you know
process the influences thatyou've received, you know, in a
new and novel, you know way.
The last quote that I wanted toshare, unless something else
(01:02:27):
comes to me, which is possible,but this is from, uh uh, one of
my favorite books, catching thebig fish, by david lynch who
started out as a painter, right,right, an artist and then
worked and then decided whoa, Ithink film is where I can really
tell my story and he stillcreates.
Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
Right, he still paints.
There's a great documentarythat's out about his life as an
artist as well and a painter.
But, as we were saying earlier,try lots of things and find
where your art works, where yourvoice really can be used.
Right with your art.
And so I love David Lynch.
I'm a Lynchian and thataesthetic is yeah, his
(01:03:10):
sensibilities are.
Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
I'm going to take credit for recommending that
book to you.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm surprised you hadn'talready, but I highly recommend,
right?
I mean, I think it's just theway he communicates.
The audio version is fantasticas well, because he reads it
himself and he's just so matterof fact about the way that he
breaks down really complex andsophisticated ideas.
So this is a quote from thatbook.
This idea comes to you, you cansee it, but to accomplish it you
(01:03:34):
need what I call a setup.
For example, you may need aworking shop or a working
painting studio, you may need aworking music studio or a
computer room where you canwrite something.
It's crucial to have a setup sothat at any given moment when
you get an idea, you have theplace and the tools to make it
happen.
If you don't have a setup,there are many times when you
(01:03:54):
get the inspiration, the idea,but you have no tools, no place
to put it together, and the ideajust sits there and festers.
Over time it will go away.
You didn't fulfill it, andthat's just a heartache, all
right.
So I'm kind of dovetailing theprevious quote of being
omnivorous, of capturingdifferent things but then doing
something you know with it.
And I think it's important tonote that it doesn't really
(01:04:16):
matter what your like.
You don't need a studio space,you don't need.
You know, like, again, there'snever been a better time to
capture, you know, ideas.
We all have a freakingrecording studio in our pocket
that is more advanced and morepowerful than what you know
would take up an entire you knowbuilding from decades previous.
Right, like, there's never beena better time to pick up.
(01:04:37):
But capturing those things,right, like, catching it.
You don't need to, you don'teven need to develop it, right?
Just catch that fish, catchthat idea, you know.
Put it somewhere where it'sgoing to.
You know, have some again,whether that's your idea or
something you know that you'vecopied or stolen from somebody
else.
But catch it, have it somewhere.
Again.
My system and I'm using airquotes here for anybody who's
(01:04:59):
just listening it's I don'treally have one, but I know I've
got all of these, you know, andeven just with modern
technology, I've got, you know,I don't even know how many
different folders on YouTube,for example, of different
categories that I can listenback to.
I've got, when I save thingsfrom Instagram, different
(01:05:19):
journaling, all of thosedifferent.
You capture those things andthen you've got this diverse
collection of back to that foodmetaphor.
You've got all the ingredientsyou could ever, and you
continuously are collecting moreand more ingredients to make
your unique dish, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
Well, yeah, and it's important, you know and this,
this is a whole other episode atsome point, right, just that,
taking the copy, the theftbeyond, and really documenting
who you are, why you're doing it, what are the things you want
to do, holding onto those thingsand using them, that they come
back and use them later and workdown the road, these ideas and
(01:05:59):
things.
Why did Basquiat mean so muchto me at the time that it did?
Why, when I see his work, doesmy soul move in such a way?
You know what I mean, thatother work doesn't do it.
But writing about it andjotting those notes down about
those things and my discoveryand love, after I hated
impressionism for so long,writing about why certain pieces
(01:06:21):
move me the way they do.
Why does Degas' ballerina piecesmove me in the way they do?
What is it about those things?
What is it about the pastels?
What is it about those things?
What is it about the pastels?
What is it about you know?
So it's like it's not just theideas too, but write out what
you're thinking and why you'rethinking about these things,
cause, though, man, I'm a bigsenses guy.
(01:06:41):
Activating all of my senses, Ifeel like, enhances me as a
person on a regular basis.
If I'm just on the computer andon my phone all the time and
that's where all my senses areengaging, I feel like I'm going
to die really soon mentally.
That's why I still love to usepens and pencils and journals
and paper and buy books and readbooks and not that I'm not on
my computer a lot or my phone,but I try to offset that with
(01:07:05):
ordering magazines and reading.
You know, having mysubscription to magazines and
local art newsletters and touch,feel, listen, see, like I like
engaging all those thingsbecause I do think it enhances
everything, that's a whole otherconversation for us as well.
I think that would be a fun one, enacting all five senses.
Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
It totally is.
But from that, I think, ontoday's topic of just of copying
and stealing, you know that's areally interesting point that
you make.
That's, that's that's worthacknowledging is just the value
of not just identifying andbecoming aware of, of what moves
you or what you like, but whydo I like that?
You know, and and I've heardyou say before, you know, not
(01:07:49):
just you know, why do I likethis, but why do I not like you
know certain things and reallyunpacking, like what is it about
?
You know the essence of thething?
You know, that really capturesme, because when you get down to
sort of the elemental nature ofsomething, the likelihood of
how you then express that um isgoing to be a lot more unique to
(01:08:11):
your own, your own voice andreally thinking about I'm just.
You know you triggered anotherthought of like I've become
obsessed lately with just tryingto understand how.
So I live in Minnesota.
It was, you know whatever,minus four when I, when I drove,
you know, to the studio thismorning.
But there's something thathappens, um, in cold weather
states that use salt, you know,for the ice on the roads where,
(01:08:34):
as it evaporates, it just makesthe most beautiful marks.
And I posted a bunch of justlike accidental artwork.
I'm just like dang but justthinking about like, okay, I
love that, it's gorgeous.
Why do?
I love that.
And then what could Ipotentially do with that?
So that led me down a wholenother rabbit hole of like I got
a bunch of different littlescience experiments laying
around of you know tryingdifferent types of table salt
(01:08:57):
and kosher salt and road salt,like what is it going to take
for me to maybe capture that andrecreate, not necessarily the
exact look, but the essence youknow, and that sort of like
literally elemental nature youknow of that?
Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
And just to add to that, you know one of my former
mentees, christine, and just toadd to that, one of my former
mentees, christine Anderson wetalked about this a lot with her
work the tar paper, the wood,the foundation, the rebar, this
(01:09:41):
is what moves her.
It's like these things, they'rejust to me.
There's beauty in there.
I'm like then why don't youmake that?
And she's like what do you mean?
And I said why do you needpermission to make that?
If that's what you love, ifthat's what moves your soul,
then go make art that moves yoursoul.
And she was like, oh my gosh,so that's what she's working on.
And I mean she's using thoseraw materials.
Like, listen, mark Bradfordgives you permission to use
(01:10:04):
those materials.
The biggest artists in theworld give you permission to do
these things.
And I'm like man, I want to seeyou doing massive installations
that look like unfinished homes, that have your touch and your
feel and your story as to whyand I can walk in it and move
around Do it.
And that's the whole point.
Right of what we're doing herewith this podcast is we're
(01:10:25):
finding quotes, we're gatheringall this information and ideas
from people that we love or haveinfluenced us and we're like
listen, all everybody's sayingis just go make some damn art.
Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, as we wrap up, uh, you know you may
not like anything about thisepisode, but I am, I'm confident
that never before has thiscollection of quotes and ideas
been shared, uh, in the same,whatever uh hour, and change, so
for what it's worth, you know,yeah, we uh, you know, if you
want to argue with us, bring it.
Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
We'd love to argue with you or debate it.
But you can also go ahead anddebate with some of the most
known artists, writers,filmmakers, musicians, poets in
the history of humankind, if youwant, as because they all say,
if it's going to be a battle, weput some monoliths on the front
(01:11:18):
lines ahead of us.
Speaker 1 (01:11:21):
You can argue with us , but you're really arguing with
these legends of history.
Speaker 2 (01:11:27):
Find us on Instagram Ty Nathan Clark, nathan Turborg.
We'd love to chat with you,send us DMs, and we're looking
forward to what we're going tobring you next time as well
thanks for joining us have agreat one.
Go, make some more.
See you from not negative toweather peace.
what's going on?
Ty you ready?
Yeah, listen, I don't want tooversell it, but I do have my
creative juices flowing today,nice so awesome, you got this
for me and I'm pretty excited sothe caffeine kicks a little
harder when you drink it fromthe creative juice mug.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Yep, absolutely.
Mine's a little out of reachright now, so I'm just going to
have to weather the storm.
I didn't think about thatbefore I got set up, but I will
say today's topic, I think, isgoing to be full of quotes, not
just one or two.
I think we're going to probablyhave a pretty good-sized
backpack full of quotes.
So, if you're listening, writedown some of the names that you
(00:47):
hear, because there will be somethat you do know and there may
be some that you're not aware of, and we're probably going to
pull from artists, fashiondesigners, writers, poets, art
educators.
I mean, I think we're going tobe all over the board as we talk
about one of my favoritesubjects that at times can be
quite controversial, dependingon where you are in your art
(01:08):
journey, and so we're going togo to Japan for our initial
quote.
That's going to start ourconversation.
Are you ready to roll with that, nathan?
Let's rock and roll, yeah fireaway.
So this quote is coming from oneof the world's most known
fashion designers from Japan,yohi Yamamoto.
(01:29):
Part of my family is Japanese.
My sister-in-law is from Tokyoand she's in the fashion
industry, so I know she'll beexcited about this one.
Yohi is a Japanese fashiondesigner in Tokyo and Paris and
he started out really as amaster tailor alongside some
very well-known tailors andfashion designers and he's won
multiple awards for hiscontributions to fashion.
(01:52):
Born in Tokyo, graduated fromKeio University with a degree in
law actually in 1966, gave uphis legal career to help his mom
in the dressmaking business andI love this story and that's
where he learned how to be atailor, basically.
And then he further went on tostudy fashion design at Bunker
Fashion College and got a degreein 1969.
(02:14):
And this quote I've read inmultiple books, like they seem
to kind of bounce around inmultiple books and this quote
says multiple books.
And this quote says startcopying what you love, copy,
copy, copy, copy and at the endof the copy you will find
(02:39):
yourself and like I said, thisis a controversial subject
amongst artists Stealing,copying, looking at lots of art,
these things can create quitehefty conversations.
How do you feel about this?
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I'm for it, I'm pro-stealing, I'm pro-copying
Like screw it, just go for it.
No, it's not quite that simple,but you've had a lot of
conversations with young artistsin your mentorship program and
I know this is something thatyou talk about a lot.
So let's just maybe start withwhy it's pretty obvious, but
let's just break down why it'scontroversial or what the two
(03:13):
sides of the coin might be.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Well, no artist wants to be labeled another artist.
All artists want to be originaland want to find originality
within their work, and I thinkthe goal of every artist is can
I discover something new?
And you're probably not goingto.
There are new ideas in art,there are new things in art, but
(03:37):
completely rediscoveringsomething new that comes, those
are few and far between in thehistory of art.
Right, we know those names, wehave their pictures on our wall,
their quotes in our books.
But when you want to be a greatartist, you have got to steal
and copy.
That's practice, that'seducating yourself, not just
(03:59):
your brain, but also yourtechnique, your gesture, your
movement, how you paint.
And we're all influenced bysomething Our subconscious
stores the things that we lovein our head more and more.
So, even if you say I willnever copy, I will never steal,
you are copying and you arestealing because your
subconscious is holding on toyour observations and it's
(04:22):
coming through in what youcreate and what I'm saying and
what the quotes we're going totalk about today is saying.
There's nothing wrong with that.
That's how you go from beingokay to good to great, from weak
to strong.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
It's funny when you mentionedthat there's probably only one
artist in the history of historywho can actually claim
originality, and that would bewhichever cave, you know, man or
woman first, you know made themark on the wall, who probably
saw somebody draw with a stickin the sand.
You know before that.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Like but?
Speaker 1 (04:54):
but everything you know from that point forward has
been in some way inspired orinfluenced by by something else
or some other things.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, by something else or some other things.
Well, go ahead.
No, go for it, you go.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Well, what else do you like about like why I know
you love that quote what else doyou love about that Like, break
that down, even, I think, alittle bit further.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Well, you know, we should all know where we want to
be as an artist, but that takestime, right?
No-transcript at everything.
(05:55):
You should still be going tothe galleries and looking at the
best landscape artists inhistory.
Why did they do that?
How did they do this?
If you just go out and set upyour canvas and just start
painting, right, you're going tobe able to paint.
But you still have to learn,and that's why some artists go
to art school.
That's why some artists stayand get their MFAs and do those
things.
You know, as an abstract artist,there are so many artists that
(06:16):
I love and I have this wonder ofhow in the world did Cy Twombly
write the way he wrote oncanvas?
Or how did he do the marks thathe make?
How did Joan Mitchell build hergestures, or build the cooning,
create those gestures in theirwork?
And so you practice thembecause you love them and it
does something to and you wantyour art to be or fit within
(06:39):
that realm of those artists andhow their work looks, and you
have to practice.
So what are you going to do?
You're going to copy right,like Yohi says, or steal.
I'm stealing the way that Psymakes his whatever.
But here's the deal.
This is what I love about thequote At the end of the copy
you'll find yourself.
At the end of it, you'll findyourself Like I just love that
(07:00):
quote.
And then Jeff Goines, the writer, has a book, um, that is called
I have it right here, just so Ium, real artists don't starve.
And there's a, there's a quotethat he has in there where he
says the best artists steal, butthey do so elegantly, borrowing
ideas from many sources andarranging them in new and
interesting ways.
You have to know your craft sowell that you can build on the
(07:23):
work of your predecessors,adding to the body of existing
work.
So you're stealing, but you'redoing it elegantly.
You're borrowing ideas, butyou're rearranging those ideas
in new ways and interesting ways.
I can't tell you how many timesI've heard this and said it
myself, from art schoolgraduates or MFA students Not a
(07:43):
lot of MFA students, but a lotof art grads for sure Especially
when you're young.
I said it I'm not looking atart, I'm not going to go look at
any art, because I want to beoriginal.
And I love this Cicero quotewhere it says to be ignorant of
what occurred before you wereborn is to remain a child.
If you want to mature, youbetter be studying what came
before you.
You better be studying whatcame before you, you better be
looking, and if you really wantto be mature, grab all those
(08:06):
ideas and start to create youover time through all those
ideas.
Right, david Bowie, the onlyart I study is the art I can
steal from Quentin Tarantino.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
I've stolen from every movie ever made.
Yeah, I mean from every movieever made.
Yeah, I mean that's a great oneI don't know I've had a chance
to listen to.
I mean he's a great.
He's a great interview.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
I mean he loves the sound of his own voice.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
He's got interesting things to say, but when he talks
about, like his, hisconsumption of film and the
encyclopedia he is, you know, ofdifferent references is
astounding.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Astounding.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
So like, and his style is distinctive, you know,
to his own, like you know, Idon't think anyone's going to
accuse him of um, you know,being, you know whatever
derivative in a negative way, um, but because he can, he's
consumed so much and paidattention and studied.
You know what he loves fromdifferent elements of film.
That's what has, you know, tothe original quote.
(09:05):
Copying, copying, copying, justbeing influenced, absorbing,
you know, different ideas anddifferent styles and different
influences led him to what hasbecome, you know, one of the
most distinctive and most copiedstyles that there's ever been,
right.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
And he gives it credit, right.
Here's a difference.
Yeah, the difference is theartist who steals and copies and
claims it as completely theirown ideas, right, and it looks
just like X, y and Z's work,right.
So that's where Jerry Saltzwould say copy, steal, copy,
(09:40):
steal.
Keep trying, show it to afriend.
If your friend tells you itlooks just like somebody else's
work, keep going, bring it backto him again.
If over time, they're stillsaying it looks like somebody
else's work, go find anotherthing to do.
You just don't have it.
But I love like.
But Quentin Tarantino, he givesit credit, right.
(10:01):
Spaghetti, westerns, the oldKung Fu films, seven Samurai,
like he'll literally name.
This is where I got this.
This is where I got this.
I don't know if you've everwatched the side-to-side
comparisons of Wes Anderson'sinfluences and scenes in his
films.
It's magical Peanuts.
He was a huge Peanuts fan.
He was a huge Peanuts fan.
(10:21):
So there's scenes in his filmsthat are literally taken from
Charles Schultz cartoons andrepresented within the scene.
French films, a lot of Frenchfilms.
You can watch on YouTubeside-by-side comparisons of his
influences with certain scenesin his films and he's given
shout-outs, right.
Yeah, you've influenced me.
(10:42):
I give shout-outs, you knowwhat I mean, man, there's a lot
of sigh in this work and it cameout because I've been reading
all of his books and so it'scoming out in there, and I've
had people wow, that piece lookslike a side twombly piece.
Oh, that piece looks like anantony tapas piece, and I say
thank you so much for that.
They're one of my heroes and itdefinitely came out in my work
(11:03):
and I'm proud of it, so right.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yep, yeah, no, that's powerful.
Wes Anderson uh, another greatexample of, like a super
distinctive signature style.
But not, you know, he didn'twake up one day and just just,
it didn't just come out rightout of nowhere, it was a product
of, um, what he had collectedover time.
All right, I'm gonna throw oneout.
(11:27):
You're way ahead of me.
So this is one of my favoritequotes um, on this, on this
subject, and um.
This is a quote by paulschrader, who's a screenwriter,
director, uh, worked withscorsese on four different films
, including Raging Bull, taxiDriver, last Temptation of
(11:49):
Christ, american Gigolo.
Most recently did the CardCounter.
Have you seen that yet?
I haven't watched it yet.
It was Oscar Isaacs, right, isthat who?
Yeah, it's fantastic, yeah, andthen first performed with Ethan
Hawke from a couple of yearsago.
It was another, another awesomeone, but I didn't realize this
until I did a little homeworkhere.
He's from Grand Rapids,michigan, and graduated from
Calvin college, so I'm prettysure, uh, he's, uh, he's one of
(12:12):
my people, one of my Dutch,dutch descendants settled in.
Grand Rapids, michigan.
So anyway, here's a quote.
He said, um, and this is uh,I'm not going to read the entire
thing, but he referencesnumerous films that had
influenced, and this is aninterview after First Reform
came out.
He said I was stealing all overthe place.
The secret of stealing is thatyou have to steal around.
(12:34):
You can't go back to the same7-Eleven every time they catch
you.
So you go to the floral shop,then you go to the gas station,
then you go to that hot dogstand that nobody goes to, and
you keep grabbing this stuff andeventually somebody will think
you made it up.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I just love that, right.
So I mean, it's just.
It's just, you just think about, you know, somebody who's
literally going from store tostore and, and you know, trying
to diversify their uh, you knowwhere they're, where they're
pulling things from, but I justlove that.
And that's actually from apodcast that I would recommend
the Moment with Brian KoppelmanReally good podcast, but that
was an interview that he didback in May of 2018.
(13:12):
So that whole interview isfantastic, but I love that quote
because you just think aboutbeing diverse in your influences
.
I mean, this is going to be acommon theme, right.
If you pull from just one thing, then it is kind of just like
you know that one thing.
You know one of the things Iwant to ask you about, cause
you've talked about this.
You know as well, but early inyour art career, where you were,
(13:34):
you know, hard and heavy on onBasquiat, right?
Oh, and how did that what Imean?
So let me ask a better questionhow did that what I mean?
So let me ask a better questionhow did that sort of you know
evolve over time from and Idon't want to put words in your
mouth, but from what I?
What my understanding was thatwas your predominant, you know,
or primary influence to now.
(13:55):
You know, however, many yearslater, where it's a lot more
diverse and you've stolen frommore stores.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
I mean, we didn't know whoBosqueiat was in the 90s.
If you're in New York and youwere in the art scene, you knew
who Basquiat was.
If you were in places where theart scene was big, you knew who
Basquiat was, but he wasn't.
You know, jean-michel was notyour Jackson Pollock name at the
time in the 90s, right Like wein art school, we all knew who
(14:21):
Jackson Pollock was.
We didn't know who Basquiat wasand he wasn't talked about.
Well, the wonderful film byJulian Schnabel about Basquiat
came out, the narrative film,and it rocked my world, like
completely rocked my world.
I had no idea whatneo-expression is or was at that
time, no clue.
I didn't know who JulianSchnabel was.
I didn't know who any of the.
I didn't even know who theinformalists were at that time,
(14:43):
like, I had no idea.
I knew abstract art, abstractexpressionism, the things I
loved and they're the typicalnames that you would know, right
, an abstract art or abstractexpression.
And I love Dadaism, I lovesurrealism, those things as a
young, you know art student and,honestly, when I saw the film
Boschia, I don't know whathappened to me, Like something
(15:04):
inside, about this person who Icouldn't at that time I could
not name a black artist ifanybody asked me to.
And that is horrible.
And it wasn't just that Ididn't know any black artists,
they weren't being taught about.
Nobody knew Like it was.
Nobody was teaching about anyblack artists at that time in
(15:27):
art history books.
Right, this is terrible.
And so man diving and paintingon wood and building frames like
stretchers, like he did, Iemulated him and I started
(15:50):
writing around campus with chalkand markers.
I started writing my own quotes, my Samo-type quotes, and my
favorite quote from the film orone of his old Samo graffiti
pieces, was Samo for president,samo's political ideology, like
all the things that he wouldwrite all over New York with his
buddy Al Diaz.
And I started writing thingsand making up my own quotes.
(16:13):
Art is an oven at 450 degrees in15 minutes, like making up my
own things and writing Samo forprez, and my nickname kind of
became Samo for prez, and so itwas like it just, and everything
I did was that kind ofneo-expressionist style.
But that's what really excitedme about art and how I could
express myself in this way wasspray paint and oil sticks and
(16:36):
things I never even thought touse in art and I mean, that was
my, that was my big intro forsure, and I copied everything.
It didn't look just like it,but it looked.
You could tell.
Oh, he likes Basquiat.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Right, right, yeah, yeah, and I think that's
important to.
I mean, you got to startsomewhere, right, I mean.
But one of the things that youyou mentioned to me was, or that
you just said that that, uh,that really landed was just how
one thing leads to another,right, so maybe that film was
what led you to, you know,looking into the novels, right,
um, and I think it's importantto, if there's a um, you know,
(17:09):
probably a few differenttakeaways from today, but that's
one of the things that I thinkis really important to emphasize
is the value of chasing yourcuriosity and just going where
those rabbit holes lead, youknow, because one thing leads to
the next thing leads to thenext thing and, um, I mean,
there's there's never been abetter time to to be omnivorous
in your consumption of differentinfluences, right, like you
(17:32):
know, youtube's pretty damn goodat guessing.
You know, when you look at onething there, you know what I
didn't know.
I wanted to see that, but Iactually did and thank you very
much.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Instagram is terrible at it.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
As good as YouTube is .
That's about how bad Instagramis, that's.
That's, that's very, very true.
But, um, it just chased thoserabbit holes, you know, and and
and chased down you know where,where, where it might, because
it may be the original thingthat you stick with.
That becomes a major influence,but it's, it may be the third,
fourth, fifth, 17th thing downthe line that actually ends up
being, you know, a moresignificant.
(18:06):
You know long term, you knowinfluence.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah, and here's a quote that I love by Jean-Luc
Godard it's not where you takethings from, it's where you take
them to right, and that I lovethat.
Run that back.
I want to hear that again soit's not where you take things
from, it's where you take themto, because I mean, I look at so
much art, man.
(18:29):
I look at so much art and Iread about so much art every day
and I'm taking bits and pieceswith me from every section that
I read off.
And and what do I do?
I spent, you know, four, five,six, eight hours in the studio
every day painting, and I've gotthis collection of ideas and
techniques and how people usemedium and how they created, why
(18:53):
they did this, what size, whatscale, what material Like.
I've got all these things inthere that I'm grabbing and
taking and, oh my gosh, paper oncanvas, on paper, on cardboard.
But it's not about who I'mtaking it from.
It's like, where am I goingwith it?
And over time the goal is overtime it becomes you.
But you're also furthering theripple of water of what was
(19:16):
created before and you're takingit in places that maybe could
have never gone before.
Another quote I love by GaryPanter says, and it goes with
this one if you have one personyou're influenced by, everyone
will say you're the next whoever, but if you rip off a hundred
people, everyone will say you'reoriginal.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Yeah, well, and that's so important too.
Actually, I got two things.
I may be able to hold on toboth of them, I may not.
All right, I want to.
I don't want to forget this, soso talk.
So what your previous quote asfar as, uh, you know where you
take things to?
Um talk about how everysignificant movement, with very
(19:57):
few exceptions, came from agroup of artists who spent a lot
of time together, who spenttime in each other's studios,
who would show one another theirwork and would respond to Right
.
So, um, talk more about that.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, I mean go back and read art history and you'll
find those groups right, you'vegot, um.
I'll just go to theimpressionist Manny Monet, degas
(20:31):
, burt Madette, all around eachother's studios, all seen each
other's work, um, and allinfluenced the direction of
impressionism, which I thinkwe've talked about in a past
podcast.
But most people don't know thatBurt Madette, the female, was
one of the largest influences onthat group of men.
Right, and it's like the thingsshe started doing in painting.
They saw, they loved, theystole her ideas.
You know what I mean, becausethey're all in each other's
studios every day.
Wow, look at that, let's dothis, I'll do this Now.
They got credit for it.
(20:52):
She's starting to get creditfor it today, but they got the
most credit for it.
They're the most notable.
But it influenced what changedart at that time.
You know you fast forward, evento the Surrealists.
Get together and they createtheir own manifesto.
If you're going to createSurrealism, you must sign on the
dotted line and it must followthese things right.
You got the Dadaists, you gotthis group of artists.
(21:13):
You've got, you know, theabstract expressionists from New
York that all hung out togetherand spent time together and
influenced each other, and I canread so many artists from the
20s, from Joe Miro and all theguys around him.
We're like we're just trying tobe Picasso, like we were all
trying to be Picasso.
We copied everything he did fora while because we wanted to be
like him, and it's funny thatthe history of art is shaped by
(21:37):
these things and these movements.
Right, it's a group of artistsstealing ideas from each other,
you know, and working together,and obviously there's ugliness
that is a part of that as well,but it is how things become
developed over time.
But some of them havesimilarities in their work, but
you can tell who is who as well,because all those ideas still
(21:58):
came from them and all they weretaking.
They continued to develop theirown style out of these things
they were taking and stealingfrom.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Well, that's the other big thing that's worth
discussing.
On this, there's only one youthat's going to process and
express those influences acertain way.
Yep, it could only come fromyou at a certain point, when
(22:32):
you've looked to enoughdifferent sources.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Well, and the great educator and artist John
Baldessari said I think it'scopying when you don't add
anything to it.
Sure.
You know, and that's what you'resaying, right it's, you're
taking these ideas and you'redeveloping your own style out of
it.
You know we work on this a lotin my mentorship program, you
know, as artists are like well,I don't know what my voice is, I
(22:56):
don't know where I am.
Well, what do you love?
Yeah, I don't know what myvoice is, I don't know where I
am.
Well, what do you love?
Yeah, what work do you love?
You know what I have artistslike well, I don't know, but
this is what I feel, this is theart that I'm drawn to, and it's
like well, maybe you're more ofa minimalist than you are an
abstract expressionist, becausethe thoughts and the things
you're telling me fit more underminimalist ideas and things
(23:18):
than really heavy, thick,abstract expressionist ideas.
And that artist will go andthen study minimalism and go,
wow, yes and no, right, I dofeel this, but I also want to
express deep opinions and things.
Maybe I'm an abstractminimalist, right, and you kind
(23:39):
of create your own.
You know where you're going andwhat you're doing.
I've got another artist in aprogram right now who you know
is dealing with studying traumaand neuroscience, things like
that, and she's kind ofdeveloping her own terms for
what she is in her art and whatshe creates, and we're looking
(23:59):
at all these other artists andinfluences and practicing the
things that they do to turn theminto your ideas and into your
practice, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Well, it totally does .
Yeah, and one of the thingsthat, um, that I definitely
learned, um from my time in theprogram with you was how and
we've, we've, this has come up alot.
I suspect it probably will alot going forward as well.
But just that whole idea ofgetting permission to do it
because hey, so-and-so did it,yeah, right, like why, you know,
(24:32):
now, I'm not claiming to be asgood as whatever artist I might
be citing, whatever artists Imight be citing, but the fact
that they did it gives mepermission to do it as well and
to try it and to integrate itinto everything else that I'm,
that I'm taking in, right, well,um, good, and I mean, you know
we say that all the time.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
there's no nose in art.
Yeah, if you have the idea, ifyou like something, go do it.
Don't.
Don't wait for somebody to saythere's a right way and a wrong
way.
Now, on a material basis,there's a right way and a wrong
way.
Certain materials don't go withcertain materials Oils, acrylics
there's a right way to use it,there's a right way to.
You know what I mean.
So it's like materials isdifferent, but as far as ideas
(25:14):
what you want to create, how youwant to create it there are no
no's.
And if you spend time studyingart, you will realize there are
no no's.
So you know you've got a lot ofcrazy conceptual things that
happen out there that you canargue is an art, is art whatever
.
But they're not taking no foran answer.
(25:35):
They are creating what theyfeel like they should create and
putting it out into the worldand it's either accepted or it's
not.
But they're putting it out intothe world and it's either
accepted or it's not.
But they're putting it outthere and the boldness that
comes along with that is a wholenother.
Conversation for anotherepisode.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
I'm going to throw another quote out.
Yeah, um, that kind of pertainsto that.
This is by a Chris Doe, who isuh, are you familiar with him?
By the way, he's?
He's a great follow on YouTubeand Instagram.
He gives a lot of.
He's a designer and filmmaker,but he gives a lot of like,
really tactical input on how tomarket, how to sell, how to just
talk about your work and beproperly compensated for it.
(26:10):
So a lot of really good gems.
I recommend following him.
But he said this is a recentquote, I think I pulled from
Instagram but he saideverything's a remix To make
something new, copy combine andtransform, copy combine and
transform something old intosomething new.
(26:30):
Say or show something old in anew way.
And I think this, this kind of,speaks to the value of, of not
just diversifying yourinfluences within the art space,
for example, but also lookinglike inspiration is everywhere.
I mean when your radar is uplike it's all over.
Whatever you're into, there'ssomething in there.
Yeah, probably a whole bunch ofthings that you can, you know,
(26:51):
sprinkle in.
Maybe it's obvious, maybe itappears, or maybe it's just
something that you're becauseyou're taking in new things,
because you're a student of lifein general and just absorbing a
diverse set of information andinfluences, it's going to affect
you positively, right?
So it's funny as I, as I'mreading that just now, I'm
thinking about like music andyou know what?
Uh, you know when hip hopstarted to sample, you know
(27:13):
different things from, fromprevious.
You know eras from the sixtiesand the seventies specifically,
like that became the hook andthat became a thing, and taking
something totally old nottotally old, but something from
whatever generations previousand giving it a brand new spin,
which in some cases is, you know, much better known than the
original.
You know source material, right, yeah, but that's because,
(27:36):
again back to the, the, theTarantino reference, because you
know those artists wereconsuming a bunch of different
work, I want to stick with musicbecause you and.
I are both big fans of music,but I don't have a specific
reference here.
But you think about the numberof times that you hear one of
your favorite artists whenthey're asked who their
influences are, and they'll saysome obvious ones where you're
(27:58):
like, oh yeah, I totally hearthat.
But then you'll also hearsomebody like what?
Like yeah, that's totally, youcan't hear that in their sound
at all.
And I guess my point is thethings that, as visual artists,
the things that we take in itmay or may not express itself,
you know, in the work, but thatdoesn't mean that the influence
isn't there, right?
Speaker 2 (28:33):
And because we're taking those things in, it's
giving us a deeper well to kindof music.
Do you listen to what rockbands he's like I don't listen
to rock.
I don't listen to much musicoutside of classical or old
barbershop type, quartet typemusic and things.
And he would even say,obviously we weren't a rock band
, led Zeppelin, we were morejazz fusion.
(28:54):
He didn't even listen to rockand roll, didn't care for it.
You can't tell me that theclassical music and the things
he didn't listen to didn'tinfluence the progressions and
the timing and the things thatthey were doing at that time in
music.
That was different than so manyother people and still last
today.
On that there's a quote byMarcel Duchamp and he says you
(29:17):
think you're actually doingsomething entirely your own and
a year later you look at it andyou actually see the roots of
where your art comes from,without even knowing at all.
So the artist who is doingtheir homework over time will
prove they've done theirhomework, so to speak, right.
(29:38):
And there's plenty of quotes wecould go into on.
If you're only working withyour ideas, you're not going to
go very far.
But if you're working with awhole lot of ideas, everybody's
ideas and you're doing yourhomework.
Your work has ultimate room forgrowth.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
So I've definitely heard it just in conversation.
I've definitely heard artiststalk about how they genuinely
believe that that they have comeup with something completely
original.
I don't know how many I don'twant to use the word famous, but
successful.
Whatever well-known artists youknow would would claim that,
(30:16):
but there's some right.
So I wonder what's the case tobe made for trying to insulate,
go in the opposite direction,right?
The case for not copying?
The case for really trying togenuinely just come up with
something that is truly original?
Is there a case to be made forthat?
Because we're both clearly onteam copy and steal, right?
(30:40):
So let's talk about the otherside of the coin.
I would say good luck.
Is there a merit to thatargument is my question.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
I would say good luck , number one.
I hope you do it, because thatwould be amazing In my lifetime.
To see somebody createsomething completely new and
original would be fascinating tome.
But nobody's going to get therewithout copying.
Like every single artist inhistory who's developed
something new was copyingsomebody else at some point and
stealing from somebody else atsome point that helped them
(31:10):
transition to where they went.
You look at every facet of arthistory through time post, cave
painter that created theircolors from grounds and spit
them on a wall.
And I love when Jerry saltstalks about the, the origins of
art and the way things worked.
But it's like post that time.
It's stealing, copy and thengrow into your own.
(31:33):
So every, every major movementand art, you look at those
artists and then you look fiveyears prior to them changing the
face of art.
They look like somebody else orone of their hero's works,
right, I mean, that's anythingin life.
That's music, that'splaywriting, that's filmmaking,
that's anything in the creativearts, that's dance.
(31:55):
Right, there's been constantforms and evolution in dance,
and I think breakdancing,hip-hop, stomp, like all these
different new forms of dancethat have started to show up on
TV, show up in films and thingswhere they haven't been
recognized before.
They're still coming fromancient forms of dance, from
(32:15):
African tribes, dance fromthroughout history that start to
form cultural happenings andevolutions within it.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Yeah, I mean I'm sure we're going to get some
pushback in the comments andresponses to this.
I would love to ask thatanybody that wants to make a
case for that we're certainlyinterested in hearing it but
cite your sources, like we likeI'd love I mean we, we would
love to hear you know what wouldbe your examples, not just the,
not just being opposed to theidea, but also supporting that
(32:45):
with um, you know some, someartists and creatives that have
that have done that.
You know we talk about howthere's never been a better time
to to educate yourself and tobe influenced by you know a
number of different things.
There's also never been aneasier time for somebody to just
steal stuff like literally graban image and repurpose it.
Like we're not pushing for that.
(33:05):
That's completely differentthan what we're talking about.
Just as a full disclaimer, right, this is another quote that
came up when I was so.
Speaking of rabbit holes isanother quote that came up when
I was looking for that.
Paul Schrader quote, woodyAllen.
Well, I've stolen from the best.
I mean I've stolen from Bergman, I've stolen from Groucho, I've
stolen from Chaplin, I'vestolen from Keaton, from Martha
(33:25):
Graham, from Fellini.
I mean I'm a shameless thief,but again citing your sources
and just owning it like yep.
You know I've been influencedby a lot of different things.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I'm going to piggyback with another filmmaker
, since we're this is a quoteheavy episode.
This is from Jim Jarmusch, thegreat indie New York filmmaker
who has been around the New Yorkart scene for a long time with
fine artists visual artists, notjust musicians and filmmakers.
He says nothing's original.
Steal from anywhere thatresonates with inspiration or
(34:00):
fuels your imagination.
Devour old films, new films,music, books, paintings,
photographs, poems, dreams,random conversations,
architecture, bridges, streetsigns, trees, clouds, bodies of
water, light and shadows.
Select only things to stealfrom that speak directly to your
soul.
If you do this, your work andtheft will be authentic.
(34:21):
Authenticity is invaluable.
Originality is non-existent,and don't bother concealing your
thievery.
Celebrate it if you feel likeit.
In any case, always rememberwhat John Luke Goddard said it's
not where you take things from,it's where you take them to.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Yeah, that to me is just that really reinforces
something that you said earlier,which is, you know, cite your
sources, you know honor, youknow the nods and the homages
you know that you're making toother artists.
And funny, I think I wasinteracting with somebody on
Instagram recently and he hadsome beautiful work and I just
commented on this and he, he wasa uh, a newer, you know younger
artist and I say that'sbeautiful, like I definitely see
the you know X influence inthat, and he said, oh, I, just
someone just mentioned that tome, you know, the other day and
(35:10):
I was like, really, so I have noreason not to, not to, not to
believe them, you know.
But I think it's important torealize that some of the
influences that we have are veryconscious, but there's plenty
of others that you're soakingstuff up on a subconscious level
regardless.
So might as well educateyourself and give proper
(35:31):
recognition to where thosethings are coming from.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Well, and I think we talked about just proving that
you do your homework, man, thatstands out.
I'm sorry, but the artist whogoes to museums, goes to
galleries on a regular basis,studies art, is just fascinated
and endowed completely into artoutside of their studio practice
(35:56):
.
Not just in the studio practice, but outside it shows.
Not just in the studio practice, but outside it shows.
I mean, if I'm a curator andyou put an uninformed artist
next to an informed artist and Ihave to choose which artist to
do a solo exhibition with in mygallery or in my museum and I go
and meet with this artist anddo a studio visit and talk about
(36:18):
art and influence, the artiststoo can prove their homework.
That can talk through thesethings.
That can.
I'm not saying educated right,I'm not saying school like MFA,
undergrad.
You can self-educate and learntoday as much as you can in an
undergrad and MFA program.
You just have to take the timeto do it.
(36:38):
So if I'm a curator and I'm ina space with the person and
they're informed about theirwork and why they do it, how
they do it, who they study, whatartists have influenced, what
they're doing, where they'vecome to and the other artist who
takes five minutes to justexplain their work.
I'm sorry, I'm going with theinformed artist.
I mean, and there's more tojust being a studio artist if
(37:00):
you want to be in the galleryworld.
There's more than just creating, there's also learning, there's
also showing up as well.
Trust me, it goes far.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Yeah, and that's something too, I think, where
you have the ability to just getyourself in more conversations,
right when you're contributing.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
Just get yourself in moreconversations, right when you're
contributing.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
But also where you're absorbing and learning and it
opens up a dialogue.
I wonder if you wouldn't mindsharing an example or two
because I know you have with meand other conversations, but
where you've had a chance toopen up some of those dialogues
when you're at a museum, whenyou're at a gallery and just
where that's opened the door tohave a new conversation and
build a new relationship.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Well, my, my first solo exhibition in Charlotte,
north Carolina.
My mentor came out to the show.
Mako Fujimura, a Japanese,american abstract artist
brilliant, definitely, look himup, possibly read a few of his
books as well, if you want toread came to the show.
But we gave a lecture, a publiclecture, one day, with a big
(38:04):
curator from the North Carolinaarea who has been a curator at
major museums contemporarymuseums brilliant woman, and you
know.
We walked the gallery togetherand she asked tons of questions
about my art, tons Archivalquestions.
Right, every major curator froma museum is going to ask
Archival questions.
Right, every major curate froma museum is going to ask you
archival questions.
(38:24):
And why is your work archival?
Why is it not?
What are you using?
Is that archival?
Like things like that?
Right, but also, I see someinfluence here.
Yes, this influence is comingfrom here, and she was doing it
right, she was not leading me.
She was like prove yourself.
Those moments are going tohappen in art.
You're going to have peoplethat are going to just talk with
(38:45):
you and you have others who aregoing to come in and say prove
yourself.
And so be prepared.
And luckily, I was prepared, andso we were able to talk about
these influences and how I'vechanged them and how they've
adapted in my work.
Why am I sewing?
Why am I not using these things?
What are the reasons for that?
Not just story, but I'mbringing art history, but we
gave a lecture the next day tothe community to talk about
(39:09):
these things.
It made that lecture a loteasier.
Here I am with my mentor on thepanel right, who is a very
educated artist who speaks allover the world about art and his
work and how he creates and whyhe creates, and then this
curator on the panel as well,and I was included in that
(39:29):
conversation.
I could actually answer andtalk and I could hold my own in
conversation.
And it's not because I'm somegenius, it's because I study.
I actually spend time in mystudio studying work, going to
museums, going to galleries,asking questions, talking to
artists on Instagram or on Zoomor whatever, and just
(39:50):
surrounding myself with art anyminute I have.
And I'm a nerd.
I'm an art nerd, a hundredpercent.
But it helps.
It does help in thosesituations, career wise.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Well, and that's that's a great case to be made
for.
So you talk about your mentor.
That's a great case to be madefor just proactively seeking out
influences and getting yourselfaround people who know more
than you, right, Like I've beenvery open with you about part of
my motivation for doing thiswith you is.
it's going to motivate me, youknow, to educate myself better,
to learn more, and you knowyou've been at this longer than
(40:23):
I have, so I'm learning from youevery, every conversation.
You know that that we haveright.
So you know that's, I think, aproduct of just being willing to
ask the question of hey, can?
think a product of just beingwilling to ask the question of
hey, can we whatever dot dot dot, interact more?
Can I throw questions your way?
I mean, I think that that'spart of the response.
I don't want to sayresponsibility, that might be a
little bit too strong, but of anartist or ever creative is to
(40:48):
to, to be aware that I keepusing that.
I keep coming back to that ideaof having your radar up.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
But to look for other , you know, mentors, peers, I
mean whatever you want to callit but just people in your life
who are going to to push youforward, who are going to
motivate you, who are going toinspire you to, you know, raise
the bar and keep.
You know, moving things forwardright and adding to the
conversation, as opposed to just, you know, pulling from it.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
I'm still growing.
I mean I'm.
I haven't made it, made itright, I'm trying, like that's
my goal, you know.
Whatever that looks like, Ijust want to be able to support
myself and continue to grow andmake art, and so I don't have
all the answers, I'm stilllearning.
You know all these things and Ithink and there's another quote
I was looking for here that Ihad that really kind of goes oh
(41:37):
yeah, don't worry about peoplestealing your ideas.
If they're any good, you'llhave to ram them down their
throats.
Anyways, howard Aiken who saidthat, howard Aiken, don't worry
about people stealing your ideas.
If they're any good, you'llhave to ram them down people's
throats anyways, howard Akin,and the reason I'm saying that
(41:59):
is because the reason I startedmy mentorship program.
I believe apprenticeship,mentorship, the willing to give
advice and help is a lost arttoday and, I think, especially
in the art world.
It's something that used toexist for centuries the
apprentice, the master, theteacher, the student.
And there's so much fear in theart world that artists are
(42:23):
afraid to share ideas.
Artists are afraid to say wheretheir ideas come from.
Artists are afraid to open upto the 15-year-old kid that
loves your work and send you anInstagram message how did you do
this?
What materials did you use?
Why do you do it?
And they don't answer.
You know, I've kind of myself,I've kind of made a personal
(42:45):
statement of I'm not going to bethat person.
I'm going to be the person thatanswers the questions, that
shares ideas, that's willing andthat's open to teach and help
others learn, because the artworld is scary and everybody
doesn't know where it's goingand how it works and it's
constantly changing and adaptingand there's new rules,
unwritten rules, and there's newthings to do that happen all
(43:07):
the time.
Do something wrong, you dosomething right.
You don't know, it changesovernight, Like I guess I just
made up a poem, an art poem, um,but it's like, who gives a shit
if people steal your ideas, ifyour ideas are?
good they're going to be stolennumber one yeah if your ideas
are good, somebody's going tosteal them, so that should be a
confidence builder.
Wow, I must have done something, because a ton of people are
(43:30):
starting to do this.
But how do you really knowpeople are going to steal your
ideas and how do you really knowif it's good in the first place
?
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Well to me that I'm sorry.
Keep going.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
I cut you off.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
No, go for it, go.
I just I got so excited.
To me that comes down to youknow.
Are you thinking about thingsthrough the lens of abundance
versus scarcity, right?
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Like in other, words.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
You know if, if, if you're worried about somebody
copying your, you know, whateveryou got going on, you're
probably in a static mode rightOf like this is kind of my thing
and it's and that's fine.
I mean there's, there's not thesame thing.
You know against that approachto, uh, to art making.
But I think that, just morebroadly, you know thinking about
(44:16):
if you approach your art and Iwould argue you know life as
well um, from an abundancementality versus a scarcity
mentality.
It's a completely differentparadigm in terms of how you
think about things.
Right, like, you know, I alwayscome back to some of the, you
know, recovery principles.
You know that I've had tounderstand very well from a
12-step standpoint.
(44:37):
But you know, one of thesayings in AA is you can't keep
it unless you give it away.
Right, like, in other words,you know you sharing that.
You know with that, you know15-year-old kid, like that
energizes you.
I mean even just you explainingthat.
You know I've had that even asas young as I am in this whole
process.
You know even that experiencethat I've had of, you know,
because I like to experimentwith a lot of different, you
(44:58):
know materials and processes Iget DMs about oh, how does this
behave and what is?
Even just having to explainthat and answer those questions
it deepens my own understanding,you know.
It forces, it, forces you, itforces me to think about like,
oh, what is, how am I doing that?
Or what is you know?
So it's a, it's a, it's areciprocating, you know sort of
(45:20):
sort of cycle, completeownership of any it's.
It is just that sort of broad,you know collection of things
that you've absorbed, you know,over time.
I think about, um, you know, uh,again back to just diversifying
(45:44):
influences.
You know from all my time inthe business world you know
there's a lot of different.
You know writers and books thathad I been on the artistic you
know, full-time artist path, youknow from the beginning I never
would have been exposed to butone of those guys.
Uh, uh, authors.
You know Tony Robbins, but oneof my favorite Tony Robbins
quotes is success leaves clues.
Success leaves clues.
(46:04):
In other words, all right, thisworked for somebody.
Yeah, presumably at a highlevel, if you're aware of it.
So what are the clues?
What are the commondenominators and how can you
connect some of those seeminglydisparate concepts you know in a
novel and unique way?
The only way you're going to beable to connect those dots is
(46:26):
if you're freaking, payingattention to what is working for
other people, not just in thespace that you're trying to be
successful in, but broadly right, just paint Interesting, what
about that works for that person?
What about this thing over here?
Could I apply to this thingthat I'm doing over here?
Because I think the more randomor the more out there that
(46:51):
connection, know that thatconnection might be, the more
novel it's going to appear whenyou, when you bring it to a
different space, you know, youthink about food, for example,
right, like I don't know whenexactly the whole I think you're
more of a foodie than I am, butwhen the whole, you know, trend
of of fusion came out, right, Idon't know when that was, but
maybe it's been around for along time, it, but maybe it's
(47:19):
been around for a long time.
It probably hasn't before itwas even called that, right.
But when we're combining, youknow these, these different um,
you know ethnic cuisines and andseasonings and things like that
, oh my gosh, when you combine Aand B now, you get something
that's completely unique butthat comes from absorbing,
consuming a lot of differentinfluences and paying attention
to what about this works overthere and what might I be able
to apply over here.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
Right.
Well, and you know to piggybackon your Robbins quote of
success leaves clues.
I'll also add that failureproves you're trying, and I love
we were discussing thismentorship group this last
Saturday.
Sylvia Plath had a quote thatsaid all of my rejection letters
proved to me, in trying, youknow, and it's like you know,
(48:00):
taking that a step further islike if you're successful in
becoming you through all yourcopy and your theft of things,
like there will be clues of whyyou're being successful.
Right, all those things, butthen also you still, in order to
get there, you got to putyourself out there.
You know what I mean, and inthe art world there's a lot more
failure than success.
(48:20):
So, thinking about Sylvia Plath, talking about her recognizing
that she's trying by herrejection letters, right, so for
her books, for her poetry andputting them out there to
publishers and constantlygetting rejected, right To her.
That proves I'm doing something, I'm trying.
(48:42):
You know, when we talk aboutsuccess, leaving those clues,
you know that failure I mean youhave to put it out there.
You have to try to fail first.
Right, to find some success,especially in you know pretty
much any of the arts.
You're going to get a lot moreno's than yes's most of the time
, but a lot of artists don'teven put stuff out there in a
(49:03):
manner that they're going to getrejected or find success.
You know, and that's you know.
We got to spend all that timefinding us and everything else
out there that we love andconstantly putting those pieces
together to form the work thatwe are confident enough in it
being our work and not just copyof so much other work.
(49:26):
Right, and then we put it outthere and see.
You know how the audience, howthe art world, takes, and
sometimes it might be you gotmore work to do and other times
it might be wow, this isfantastic and this fits, and
we're going to run with you.
So don't let rejection spoilwhat you're doing in the studio
and how you're pushing andlearning and working.
(49:48):
Don't let those.
I experience it every month.
I feel like like rejection forsome level in the art world and
it'd be very easy for me to getdown on myself and not continue
to study and not continue tocopy and practice and grow in my
work.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
You know, that brings up a whole nother element of
this which is worth talkingabout.
I didn't think about it tilljust now.
But just, you know, not justfear forgive me not just
rejection, but fear of rejectionor, in the context of this
conversation, fear of beingcalled out for, you know, being
too derivative, or whatever termyou might want to use, of
copying or, or, you know,stealing.
You know, in the uh, in thenegative sense, right Like
(50:27):
that's a thing.
Sure, it's certainly somethingthat that I've experienced, you
know a lot, especially when I'm,I'm, and and that's certainly
something that I've experienceda lot, especially when I'm
intentionally exploringsomething that I've gotten
picked up from another source.
There is that fear of like.
Oh well, and I think to yourpoint earlier.
I'll ask you too if there'sanything you would add to this.
(50:49):
But you said something to theeffect of just making sure that
we're citing our sources, thatwe're being open about.
Yep, I'm influenced by this andand not trying to hide from it,
but actually owning it andcelebrating that.
You know, did I understand thatcorrectly from what you
mentioned before, or in part one, probably?
Speaker 2 (51:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, talking about likethose things.
I finished my first novelduring the pandemic and it took
me 13 years to write because Iwould stop and then I'd work on
it again and I'd stop, I'd workon it again over the years and
my goal is art.
So I'd definitely beinterrupted with a lot of art
making and then sitting down towrite.
There's tons of ideas within mynovel that I've taken from
(51:26):
other artists, my favoritewriters, David Eggers, Nick
Hornby, the poet, Mary Oliver,and then my favorite fiction
writers, and from my favoritefilmmakers, from Wes Anderson
and from stories that I loveCharlie Kaufman, screenwriters
and things.
And William Burroughs says allwriting is facts.
Just cut up, it's a collage ofwords that you've read or that
(51:47):
are overheard and so it's like.
But when I wrote my queryletter for publishers, I also
have to put in this letter whatis this book like?
What are the similarities?
I cite my sources.
I'm not going to hide from.
I wanted to start writing booksafter I read High Fidelity by
Nick Hornby.
I want to write because of, andI'm taking all these ideas and
(52:10):
facts and things I've gatheredand the way other guys have
written and the way that othergals have written and I combine
it into how I wrote.
Same thing with art, but it wasfor me.
It was just another newlearning experience of that copy
, that theft, that how to begreat at something you do by
taking the wealth of informationthat others have done before
you and then finding your voicewithin that, Totally.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
Yeah, that's a perfect segue into the uh.
One of the last quotes that Iwanted to share and this is one
of my favorites that I just cameacross yesterday because I went
down the rabbit hole because Iwas preparing for this
conversation.
So this is a quote by Paul Rand, the legendary designer, uh,
who said the artist is acollector of things, imaginary
or real.
He accumulates things with thesame enthusiasm that a little
(52:54):
boy stuffs his pockets.
The scrap heap and the museumare embraced with equal
curiosity.
He takes snapshots, makes notesand records impressions on
tablecloths or newspapers, onbacks of envelopes or matchbooks
.
Why one thing and not anotheris part of the mystery, but he
is omnivorous.
And uh.
(53:16):
There's a couple of things fromthat, based on what you just
said, and and and uh, that Iwant to add as well.
But to your point, like you mayor may not ever be a, it may or
may not be your goal, I don'tknow to to be a, you know
published, you know author, orto to take, I don't know how far
you want to take that, but I doknow about you, that you know
you've been involved in filmthat you, you know, produced an
(53:37):
award award-winning documentarythat you're involved in in
writing and um, and I think thatthere's so much to be said for
for just trying different things, even if it's not going to be
your thing, right, like sure.
I think about just thecompletely random interest in
things, that that or you canconnect the dots, you know.
I think about how you know mypassion for you know,
(54:00):
photography and videography, howthat lends to my understanding
of composition and understandingmy exploration and my attempt
at understanding composition andlighting, you know, and things
along those lines.
But one hand always washes theother right, like it's
impossible to sort of, you know,separate out.
Oh, this is just, you know,writing, this is just writing
(54:23):
tie.
This is just filmmaking tie,this is just artist tie, or even
broadly, even beyond, you know,in things that may or may not,
on the surface, have anything todo with anything else.
You know we're, we're collecting, we're stuffing our pockets.
You know whether it comes fromthe scrap heap or the museum,
you know it doesn't even matter.
And the thing I love about thatis the very last word
(54:44):
omnivorous.
In other words, I can take, Ican take meat, I can take fruit,
I can take vegetables, I cantake any food, anything edible,
and I can convert that into fuel.
Yeah Right, yep.
As opposed to if you're limitedto just one specific food
source, survival becomes a lotmore difficult.
(55:06):
So I love that idea of justbeing an omnivorous consumer,
just being an omnivorousconsumer, and the part of this
as we kind of begin to wrap upand think about what we can do
with this or what might be.
The tactical application to meis taking snapshots, making
notes, recording impressions,capturing those things as they
come along, so that it's in thewell right.
(55:28):
So there's a subconsciousabsorbing of just things that
sort of wash over us andinfluence us without our
necessarily seeking it out orthinking in those terms.
But to me, this quote here is areminder that it's also
incumbent upon us as creators,as artists, to be intentional
about capturing those things,about writing those things down,
(55:50):
about taking those pictures andI've got random folders and
notes and things like I mean itain't organized.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
I love it.
I love it if it was, butthey're there.
Speaker 1 (55:59):
you know and and I'm sure you've had, actually I know
you have the experience oflooking back at journals and and
capturing little things thatwere influencing you.
You know years, I mean, I knowyou know a current work is based
on, you know poetry, that youwrote what 20 years plus ago, 25
years ago, right, so anyway.
So I just I think it'simportant for us to be aware of
yep, we're going to absorb somethings just naturally by
(56:20):
consuming them, but we also needto be aware that there's a lot
of value in proactivelycapturing those things and
writing those things down.
Yep, your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (56:30):
Yeah, I mean that's my life, that's what I do.
So it's like.
I mean I have amassed books,photographs, pictures, folders
on my desktop, folders in mydesk drawer, journals, notebooks
.
I should probably invest insticky notes because I've got
(56:50):
thousands of these all over theplace and all my books are just
lined with arrows and notes andnote cards within books.
And my favorite thing aboutgoing to art museums is going to
the art museum library if theyhave it.
Some art museums have massivelibraries of books and I go
through the museum and then I gointo the library and I grab,
(57:14):
and then I go into the libraryand I grab and I make a stack on
the table and I have my phoneout and I'm just taking
snapshots of everything thatspeaks to me.
Right, this collection of ideas.
And we should be mentalhoarders as artists and I truly,
truly believe that, becausethat influences our work and
informs how we talk and thinkand create and all these things,
and I mean that's all I doevery day.
(57:34):
I mean I'm blessed to be ableto do that and it's taken me a
long time to get to this point,to be able to hoard regularly
ideas and art and consume thesethings in such a way that helps
me create out of the chaos,which I have a quote I want to
read about Lewis Hyde, one of myfavorite books, the Gift.
I suggest every artist readsthe Gift and it talks about
(57:57):
really kind of the history ofart coming from a gift, like a
tradable gift that was used inancient history to kind of
commissioned work rightMichelangelo, and being hired as
a trade things, and then to artas a commodity and how to
balance that art is truly stilla gift but yet it also is a
(58:19):
commodity and how do you balancethat between the two.
So I suggest everybody go outand buy that book.
So this quote says Most artistsare brought to their vocation
when their own nascent gifts areawakened by the work of a
master, an influence.
That is to say, most artistsare converted to art by art
itself.
(58:40):
Now, finding one's voice isn'tjust an emptying and purifying
oneself of the words of others,but an adopting and embracing of
affiliations, communities anddiscourses.
Embracing affiliations,communities and discourses
Inspiration could be calledinhaling the memory of an act
never experienced.
Invention, it must be humblyadmitted, does not consist in
(59:04):
creating out of the void but outof chaos.
So what he's saying at the endthere, invention, the
originality, the newness, the,your voice, that is your work
and does no longer look justlike other pieces of work.
It looks like your work.
It does not consist in creatingout of the void, the just
(59:27):
yourself, the just this, thejust this.
It comes out of the chaos, thehoarding, the collecting, the
ravaging of thoughts and ideasfrom so many other things and
other cultures and other.
All of that is where inventioncomes from, Not out of the void
of just trying to do it aloneand by yourself.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
That's pretty deep Very deep.
Speaker 2 (59:48):
There's a lot there, a lot there Very deep.
Speaker 1 (59:51):
That could be a whole .
We could have a number ofspinoff episodes of just this
topic alone.
I suspect that we'll probablyend up coming back to it.
Speaker 2 (59:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
You know, and at some point as well I was trying to
find that actually made me thinkof another quote that I wanted
to find specifically there's aScott Adams who's responsible
for most notably Dilbert youknow, the I don't know how long
that that um cartoon has beengoing, but I remember him.
(01:00:20):
I think it was on the TimFerriss podcast.
But he talks about how he's notthe best.
I'm paraphrasing based on mymemory.
But I'm not the best artist.
They're way better, you know,artists than me or people.
People draw much bettercartoonists.
I'm not the funniest there's.
There's people who are way, way, you know, way better at comedy
and much funnier.
(01:00:41):
But the combination, but I'm,I'm okay, I'm pretty good as an
artist and I'm I'm pretty funny,and so it's the combination of
those things right.
So it's kind of that Venndiagram of influences and life
experiences too, where I mean,like I've kicked myself, I spent
some time, you know, in in allthe you know 20 plus years that
(01:01:02):
I spent, you know, really in thebusiness world and not really
doing much of anything with art,you know, and I did for a
period of time have some regret,like man.
I, you know where, where, wherecould I be, you know, had I just
taken the more you knowtraditional route to, to, to, to
get to here, um, you know, andand I didn't spend too much time
there because I quicklyrealized it all, it all leads to
(01:01:24):
this, right, all, the, the, the, the, the Venn dot.
It's not just two circles,right, it's, it's a number of
different.
You know things and experiencesand influences, right, like you
know, I use a lot of.
You know constructiontechniques and materials.
You know, in in my work, I'm ashitty.
You know a trades person, right, like, ain't nobody hiring me
to do anything, but you know,maybe haul haul some heavy stuff
(01:01:45):
around and even that is thatthat windows probably passes.
I hate here, but you know, but Iknow enough about, like, kind
of how to, how to use differentmaterials and how to use
different.
You know different techniques.
I mean, that's just one exampleof many, but you know, to your
example of your, your experienceand your knowledge base as a
writer, you know your experienceand knowledge base.
You know that you spent inmarketing and advertising and
(01:02:07):
those types of things.
Right, like it all.
It all leads to wherever you'reat today and how you're going
to filter that's a great,another great way of that.
I like to think about it howyou're going to sort of you know
process the influences thatyou've received, you know, in a
new and novel, you know way.
The last quote that I wanted toshare, unless something else
(01:02:27):
comes to me, which is possible,but this is from, uh uh, one of
my favorite books, catching thebig fish, by david lynch who
started out as a painter, right,right, an artist and then
worked and then decided whoa, Ithink film is where I can really
tell my story and he stillcreates.
Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
Right, he still paints.
There's a great documentarythat's out about his life as an
artist as well and a painter.
But, as we were saying earlier,try lots of things and find
where your art works, where yourvoice really can be used.
Right with your art.
And so I love David Lynch.
I'm a Lynchian and thataesthetic is yeah, his
(01:03:10):
sensibilities are.
Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
I'm going to take credit for recommending that
book to you.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm surprised you hadn'talready, but I highly recommend,
right?
I mean, I think it's just theway he communicates.
The audio version is fantasticas well, because he reads it
himself and he's just so matterof fact about the way that he
breaks down really complex andsophisticated ideas.
So this is a quote from thatbook.
This idea comes to you, you cansee it, but to accomplish it you
(01:03:34):
need what I call a setup.
For example, you may need aworking shop or a working
painting studio, you may need aworking music studio or a
computer room where you canwrite something.
It's crucial to have a setup sothat at any given moment when
you get an idea, you have theplace and the tools to make it
happen.
If you don't have a setup,there are many times when you
(01:03:54):
get the inspiration, the idea,but you have no tools, no place
to put it together, and the ideajust sits there and festers.
Over time it will go away.
You didn't fulfill it, andthat's just a heartache, all
right.
So I'm kind of dovetailing theprevious quote of being
omnivorous, of capturingdifferent things but then doing
something you know with it.
And I think it's important tonote that it doesn't really
(01:04:16):
matter what your like.
You don't need a studio space,you don't need.
You know, like, again, there'snever been a better time to
capture, you know, ideas.
We all have a freakingrecording studio in our pocket
that is more advanced and morepowerful than what you know
would take up an entire you knowbuilding from decades previous.
Right, like, there's never beena better time to pick up.
(01:04:37):
But capturing those things,right, like, catching it.
You don't need to, you don'teven need to develop it, right?
Just catch that fish, catchthat idea, you know.
Put it somewhere where it'sgoing to.
You know, have some again,whether that's your idea or
something you know that you'vecopied or stolen from somebody
else.
But catch it, have it somewhere.
Again.
My system and I'm using airquotes here for anybody who's
(01:04:59):
just listening it's I don'treally have one, but I know I've
got all of these, you know, andeven just with modern
technology, I've got, you know,I don't even know how many
different folders on YouTube,for example, of different
categories that I can listenback to.
I've got, when I save thingsfrom Instagram, different
(01:05:19):
journaling, all of thosedifferent.
You capture those things andthen you've got this diverse
collection of back to that foodmetaphor.
You've got all the ingredientsyou could ever, and you
continuously are collecting moreand more ingredients to make
your unique dish, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
Well, yeah, and it's important, you know and this,
this is a whole other episode atsome point, right, just that,
taking the copy, the theftbeyond, and really documenting
who you are, why you're doing it, what are the things you want
to do, holding onto those thingsand using them, that they come
back and use them later and workdown the road, these ideas and
(01:05:59):
things.
Why did Basquiat mean so muchto me at the time that it did?
Why, when I see his work, doesmy soul move in such a way?
You know what I mean, thatother work doesn't do it.
But writing about it andjotting those notes down about
those things and my discoveryand love, after I hated
impressionism for so long,writing about why certain pieces
(01:06:21):
move me the way they do.
Why does Degas' ballerina piecesmove me in the way they do?
What is it about those things?
What is it about the pastels?
What is it about those things?
What is it about the pastels?
What is it about you know?
So it's like it's not just theideas too, but write out what
you're thinking and why you'rethinking about these things,
cause, though, man, I'm a bigsenses guy.
(01:06:41):
Activating all of my senses, Ifeel like, enhances me as a
person on a regular basis.
If I'm just on the computer andon my phone all the time and
that's where all my senses areengaging, I feel like I'm going
to die really soon mentally.
That's why I still love to usepens and pencils and journals
and paper and buy books and readbooks and not that I'm not on
my computer a lot or my phone,but I try to offset that with
(01:07:05):
ordering magazines and reading.
You know, having mysubscription to magazines and
local art newsletters and touch,feel, listen, see, like I like
engaging all those thingsbecause I do think it enhances
everything, that's a whole otherconversation for us as well.
I think that would be a fun one, enacting all five senses.
Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
It totally is.
But from that, I think, ontoday's topic of just of copying
and stealing, you know that's areally interesting point that
you make.
That's, that's that's worthacknowledging is just the value
of not just identifying andbecoming aware of, of what moves
you or what you like, but whydo I like that?
You know, and and I've heardyou say before, you know, not
(01:07:49):
just you know, why do I likethis, but why do I not like you
know certain things and reallyunpacking, like what is it about
?
You know the essence of thething?
You know, that really capturesme, because when you get down to
sort of the elemental nature ofsomething, the likelihood of
how you then express that um isgoing to be a lot more unique to
(01:08:11):
your own, your own voice andreally thinking about I'm just.
You know you triggered anotherthought of like I've become
obsessed lately with just tryingto understand how.
So I live in Minnesota.
It was, you know whatever,minus four when I, when I drove,
you know, to the studio thismorning.
But there's something thathappens, um, in cold weather
states that use salt, you know,for the ice on the roads where,
(01:08:34):
as it evaporates, it just makesthe most beautiful marks.
And I posted a bunch of justlike accidental artwork.
I'm just like dang but justthinking about like, okay, I
love that, it's gorgeous.
Why do?
I love that.
And then what could Ipotentially do with that?
So that led me down a wholenother rabbit hole of like I got
a bunch of different littlescience experiments laying
around of you know tryingdifferent types of table salt
(01:08:57):
and kosher salt and road salt,like what is it going to take
for me to maybe capture that andrecreate, not necessarily the
exact look, but the essence youknow, and that sort of like
literally elemental nature youknow of that?
Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
And just to add to that, you know one of my former
mentees, christine, and just toadd to that, one of my former
mentees, christine Anderson wetalked about this a lot with her
work the tar paper, the wood,the foundation, the rebar, this
(01:09:41):
is what moves her.
It's like these things, they'rejust to me.
There's beauty in there.
I'm like then why don't youmake that?
And she's like what do you mean?
And I said why do you needpermission to make that?
If that's what you love, ifthat's what moves your soul,
then go make art that moves yoursoul.
And she was like, oh my gosh,so that's what she's working on.
And I mean she's using thoseraw materials.
Like, listen, mark Bradfordgives you permission to use
(01:10:04):
those materials.
The biggest artists in theworld give you permission to do
these things.
And I'm like man, I want to seeyou doing massive installations
that look like unfinished homes, that have your touch and your
feel and your story as to whyand I can walk in it and move
around Do it.
And that's the whole point.
Right of what we're doing herewith this podcast is we're
(01:10:25):
finding quotes, we're gatheringall this information and ideas
from people that we love or haveinfluenced us and we're like
listen, all everybody's sayingis just go make some damn art.
Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, as we wrap up, uh, you know you may
not like anything about thisepisode, but I am, I'm confident
that never before has thiscollection of quotes and ideas
been shared, uh, in the same,whatever uh hour, and change, so
for what it's worth, you know,yeah, we uh, you know, if you
want to argue with us, bring it.
Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
We'd love to argue with you or debate it.
But you can also go ahead anddebate with some of the most
known artists, writers,filmmakers, musicians, poets in
the history of humankind, if youwant, as because they all say,
if it's going to be a battle, weput some monoliths on the front
(01:11:18):
lines ahead of us.
Speaker 1 (01:11:21):
You can argue with us , but you're really arguing with
these legends of history.
Speaker 2 (01:11:27):
Find us on Instagram Ty Nathan Clark, nathan Turborg.
We'd love to chat with you,send us DMs, and we're looking
forward to what we're going tobring you next time as well
thanks for joining us have agreat one.
Go, make some more.
See you from not negative toweather peace.
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