September 4, 2025 • 54 mins
Have you ever looked at your work-in-progress and thought it was absolutely hideous? According to acclaimed sculptor Arlene Shechet, that's exactly where the magic happens.
In this eye-opening exploration of artistic process, we dive deep into Shechet,'s philosophy of creation, where listening to your work becomes just as important as making it. The American sculptor, whose gravity-defying arrangements have earned places in the Metropolitan Museum of Art and the Whitney, reveals how embracing the "ugly" phases of creation leads to unexpected beauty.
"I have to have a real appetite for ugly," Shechet, confesses about her creative process. "There are so many points where this thing is just hideous and yet I have to believe in it." This sentiment resonates profoundly with our own artistic journeys—recognizing that every meaningful piece goes through an awkward adolescence before reaching maturity.
What truly sets Shechet, apart is her approach to artistic control. After carefully crafting her ceramic sculptures, she surrenders them to a 2,000-degree kiln where "all bets are off." This balance between meticulous creation and acceptance of unpredictability forms the heart of her practice. She meticulously documents every experiment in notebooks, creating a scientific approach to artistic discovery that allows her work to continually evolve.
We're particularly struck by Shechet,'s description of her studio as "both a farm and a factory"—a place that cultivates growth while producing tangible objects. Her commitment to pushing boundaries by creating open systems rather than settling into comfortable patterns mirrors our own philosophy of artistic development. When she declares, "I want to make something more than an idea," she articulates the ultimate challenge facing every serious artist: creating work that resists easy description and demands deeper engagement.
Join us in this fascinating conversation about embracing discomfort, fighting against creative stagnation, and finding joy in the uncertain journey of making art that matters. Whether you're a seasoned creator or just beginning your artistic path, Shechet,'s wisdom offers valuable perspective on sustaining growth through perpetual discovery.
Please visit:
https://art21.org/watch/art-in-the-twenty-first-century/s7/arlene-shechet-in-secrets-segment/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh_lDHY0ZO4
https://www.frieze.com/video/arlene-shechet-and-sheena-wagstaff-frieze-masters-podcast
Send us a message - we would love to hear from you!
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@justmakeartpodcast @tynathanclark @nathanterborg
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
one of the great things about making art is that
you get to make things and thenlisten to those things and pay
attention to those things yep, I, I agree.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Same, 100% sincere agreement.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Next quote we're adding a lot to this, and thanks
for listening.
I guess just go listen to theoriginal or watch the original
video.
No, so one thing that came tomind for me on that one, ty, was
just the call and responserelationship with the work,
something we've discussed manytimes before and certainly
(00:50):
something that we'll come backto certainly again.
But it's just that, you know,think about music, about public
gatherings, that call responserelationship between you know
two active parties, you know inthe, in the equation, and
there's something about thatthat as time goes on, my
(01:11):
relationship with the workdeepens, and the more I think I
know, the more I realize I don't.
And so that's where thelistening is so important, right
?
Yeah, you talked the other dayabout.
You texted me something to theeffect of what was it?
We should pull it up.
What did you text me?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
When, what day and what time?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Yeah, what word did you use, though?
It was battling?
It was fighting, yeah, fighting, yeah.
Yeah, all of the above, yeah,and I just I think I responded
with a pithy little.
Have you?
Have you thought about justsitting down and listening for a
minute?
You didn't need to hear thatfrom me, but it's okay.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I mean that's.
I feel like that's.
All I'm doing right now is justbeing excited Number one about
making art, right Cause I get to, like she says, but just
listening to everything andtrying to pay attention to what
I'm listening to.
Yeah, and it's, it's right now.
Everything is changing everyday.
I'm playing with new things,I'm adding new stuff, I'm taking
away, I'm deconstructing, I'mreconstructing, I'm listening,
(02:14):
I'm looking and then I'm justkind of going okay, where are
you going?
Where are you going?
Oh, okay, Rewind right back,try again, move on next thing.
So I mean, even this morningbefore you and I hopped on and I
was rearranging things andlooking at stuff, adding some
pastel, getting some oil sticksout, like making some stuff, and
then going oh, that definitelywasn't where it was telling me
(02:38):
to go.
Okay, later today, after we'redone recording, I'll go in and F
around with that stuff.
But it's so fun, it's so fun.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
I don't care, it's so fun.
And as both parties change, theconversation changes.
Yeah, you know, it's easy tosort of get stuck in a certain
mode of like, oh, this is maybewhere this is headed, but then,
in Arlene's words, make thesethings, then listen to those
(03:06):
things and pay attention tothose things.
So all right, we've donesomething.
The things that we're havingconversations with have changed,
so the conversation itselfneeds to change, and so the
listening and the payingattention is is critically
important.
Why don't you give us a quickintro on our featured artist of
the day?
I'm super excited for thisconversation.
Yeah, a lot of really fun stuffwe're going to unpack today.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, this was a great find.
Obviously, you all know thatNathan and I are massive Art21
fans, so this is a great littleshort that they did on the
artist Arlene Sheckett.
And she's an American sculptorknown for her inventive and
gravity-defying arrangements andexperimental use of diverse
materials.
Perfect for Nathan, right,everybody.
(03:50):
She was born in 1951, and herabstract figurative forms often
function as metaphors for bodilyexperience, the human condition
, touching upon imperfection anduncertainty with humor and
pathos.
That's from her artiststatement, and New York Times
critic Holland Cotter wrote thather career has encompassed both
more or less traditionalceramic pots and wildly
(04:12):
experimental abstract forms,often displayed on fantastically
inventive pedestals.
And he says this is some of themost imaginative American
sculpture of the last 20 years.
Her work has been in so manyplaces, from the Met to the
National Gallery, art LACMA.
She's exhibited in the WhitneyInstitute of Contemporary Art,
(04:35):
boston, the Frick Collection,and has been awarded so many
incredible things, like theGuggenheim Fellowship, she won
the Joan Mitchell Grant, I mean,her list just goes on and on.
And she's a native New Yorkerand lives and works in the
Hudson Valley.
And this was an incrediblediscovery, nathan finding Arlene
.
I don't know how I haven't seenher before or come across her
(04:56):
before.
But, like you and I were sayingearlier, we're absolutely in
love, completely in love.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Yeah, no, we'll talk a lot about this, but just, I
definitely feel the kindredspirit and a lot of the things
that she shares in the way thatshe thinks about and talks about
her work.
Uh, we'll come back to thepedestal part in particular,
because that really unlockedsomething for me just in
watching, watching this video aswe prepared for this.
So let's get into our nextquote from the art 21 video,
(05:22):
which, again, we always cite oursources and reference people
back to the source.
So this is a phenomenal video.
Of course, that's not just thequotes that we're going to share
audibly, but the video of thework and our process, and if
you're an art nerd, like Ty andI are, you'll love watching the
way she works and the entireprocess.
It's absolutely fascinating.
So here's our next quote.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I was thinking I have to have a real appetite for
ugly.
There are so many points wherethis thing is just hideous and
yet I have to believe in it andI have to go on with it.
But it might be something good.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Right, that's what I was saying when we opened, like
that's how I've been, like justgoing, uh, yeah, there's nothing
here and it just looks terrible, but I have to believe in it.
I have to believe in it becauseI'm going here for a reason and
a purpose.
Inside it's pushing me there.
So, no matter how shitty itlooks right now, how horrible
(06:27):
things are coming along, I haveto believe in it and go on with
it, because it might besomething good.
Yeah, and watching her.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
I don't want to be mean about it, but I you know.
You showed me a couple ofpictures.
It does look shitty right now.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
I don't want to be hard.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
I'm kidding, I'm joking, I'm joking.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
What did we talk about?
Curtis elephant skin rightRhino skin, rhino, skin, rhino,
skin.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Here we go.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
But watching her with the clay takes me back to art
school, and I started out inceramics.
I started out in clay andworked with clay for a long time
and just seeing her work withthe clay like it was bringing
back so many memories of thosemoments where you're like this
is just a blob, this is nothing,it's just form upon form upon
form upon form, with nothingthat's truly come to life yet.
(07:11):
But it's leading to life.
It's leading from these momentsof just wet glops of things
with fingerprints andthumbprints and movement in it.
That is leading somewhere and Ijust love, I love, I love when
people work with clay talk.
There's just it's, there's a,it's a different personality and
(07:31):
it's something that I justabsolutely adore hearing artists
that work with clay talk.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
I think we have to have that appetite for for ugly,
at least a tolerance for it.
I thought about this a whileback I don't remember when this
sort of like popped to mind, butI realized that every piece
goes through a very awkwardadolescence.
That's how I think about it.
If you ever looked atsomebody's photo wall, or if you
go to a graduation or somethingor a wedding where they show
(08:01):
the right every.
It was Ella's first day ofschool today.
We took first day photo right.
But as, as things progress,even adults every adult right
goes through this, these awkwardphases where you're like and
everyone probably has like that,those those two or three years,
great middle school, whateveryou're like, can we just leave
those pictures off right?
(08:21):
I mean, at one point I hadbraces, I had a bit of a mullet.
I don't know how this happenedin my school, but there guys
would get a perm in back.
So I can.
Now you're going to make meshare this photo.
I will, I'll find it, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
You're going to have to send it to me.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
That'd be great, um, but, uh, so braces, um, short
buzzed hair on the side, somelines, okay, okay.
And then short buzzed hair onthe side, some lines, okay, okay
.
And then a little bit of amullet in back with a perm okay,
that's not ever going to be myprofile photo.
That's not.
That's not a phase of life.
It should be.
It's just funny.
It should be, yeah, it's funnynow, you know.
But we all, we all as people, gothrough these, this adolescent
(09:00):
phase where we're changing from,we're transitioning from.
You know one phase of life whenwe're you know we're
transitioning from.
You know one phase of lifewhere you know, cute, adorable
kids, everything's just like thework, everything's free, it's
nothing but possibility, andthen, before it gets to be, it's
fully formed, you know,finished thing, it's, it's
something else and, in her words, ugly, hideous.
But it's that belief that it'sgoing to be coming back to the
(09:23):
work, it's that belief, it'sthat faith that it could be
something good which, even if wereally break down the way she
thinks about it, it might besomething good.
It might also not, and that'sokay.
We have to accept thatpossibility as well.
But it's that belief, thatfaith that it might be something
good that carries us throughthe hideous ugly phases.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Well, and I think I like that she uses the word an
appetite for ugly.
So it's just like I meanthinking about.
There's a natural desire, yeah,there's an appetite for that,
and she has to have itAbsolutely, because starting
with an idea is always ugly.
If you don't have an appetitefor what that beginning part is,
(10:11):
which is the hardest part towork through, there's an
ugliness to it, it's anawkwardness, it's a not natural
moment the new idea, the newthing, and so if you don't have
an appetite for it, you skip it,you move on, you go on to the
next thing and keep searchingfor what feels comfortable or
good, and I think that's why theartists like Arlene get to the
(10:33):
places where they're going,because that appetite is so
strong and it's always pushingthem Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
It's something the other source we're not going to
talk about it too much today.
We're mostly going to referencethe Art21 video.
But the other great podcastthat I would suggest people
listen to if you would like tohear Arlene discuss her work
more, is the Freeze Masterspodcast.
We'll reference that a couplemore times because there's some
really interesting things thatget discussed in that that
(10:59):
aren't covered in this art 21video.
But she talks about how and I'mgoing to paraphrase here but
she discusses how the process ofdiscovery for her is is crucial
to her work, especially for acareer that's that's spanned,
you know, as as long as as hersize.
She's in her seventies Now.
She's been at this for a longtime, but she she says in that
(11:21):
podcast it's like if I, if I,had to start work knowing how it
was going to turn out, I wouldhave gotten bored a long time
ago.
It is the discovery of whatit's going to become.
That is where the excitementand the interest she talks about
, the joy of discovering how apiece is going to evolve over
time, which is, yeah, I lovethat.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
That's the natural order for the artists who have
made it.
Like that story is justrepeated throughout history.
That love and that search fordiscovery is the artists who
have made it and who've had along, lasting career.
That's there.
I was just reading this morningabout a young Picasso right
after he moved to Paris and hewas copying Toulouse-Lautrec.
(12:05):
It was his hero.
So everything he was doing wasalmost an absolute copy of
Lautrec, and then a couple otherthings started to influence him
.
And then the blue period cameand so other artists started to.
But there was like this search,he's in love with this, but
then this new place in Paris andthese new artists and writers
that he was around in Paris atthat time started to influence
(12:26):
this direction.
And then all of a sudden youhave Picasso's Blue Period,
because he's just constantlysearching for that discovery and
then he goes oh, that's it.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
The really out of control part is this thing that
I slave over or I play with willdry for several months and then
it will go into a kiln of over2,000 degrees and that's nuts.
And then all bets are off.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Been there so many times pulling broken clay out of
the kiln, pulling the piecesthat just all bets were off at
that moment, cause you justdon't know, like you're hoping
you have all the air bubbles outof the thicker parts, you're
hoping you have reinforcedmoments within spots that have
more weight or less weight, butthen at the end of the day you
(13:22):
put it in and you just wait and,honestly, all bets are off.
Did did it fire the way youwanted it to?
Did it actually do the thingsyou were hoping?
Was your structure reinforced?
Were you able to?
You know?
I mean every little thing thatgoes into that.
And then the next step too, justthe glaze.
Sometimes the glaze doesn'tcome out the way you want to,
(13:42):
it's completely, and then it'sruined because it's not the way
you wanted it to.
And I think that's what I loveabout, as I said before, artists
that work with clay, is thereare so many unknown factors that
with a painting, I can alwayspaint over it.
But for a sculptor and somebodyworking with clay, if all bets
are off and it breaks in thekiln, you're back to square root
, one again and you got torefigure it out or move on to
(14:05):
the next thing, and there's justa big daring element within
that that I just find wonderful.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
And just the fascination with the process is
what really strikes me aboutthat.
That particular quote, becauseyou know, obviously at this
point she has been working withyou know, ceramics and it deeply
engaged in this process forquite some time.
And just to hear the excitementand just that pure curiosity,
it's nuts.
It's 2,000 degrees.
(14:34):
It's nuts.
When I heard her say that, Iwas thinking about and I haven't
been working with metal castingcertainly as long as she's been
working with ceramics, butevery single time I fire it up,
and copper, primarily, is whatI've been working with up to
this point, and the meltingpoint is 1,984 degrees, to be
(14:56):
specific.
But it's crazy, it's like I'mmelting metal and it's
absolutely fascinating to thinkabout, like how is this even
possible?
No, just the, the alchemy of itis is so exciting and fun
because you can influence theresult, but you can't fully
control it.
(15:17):
It's a lot of life, really.
There's things we can influence, very few things that we can
control, and so it is one ofthose, one of the many things
about the artistic practice thatI think mirrors a lot of things
that are valuable to understandabout life as a whole.
But just, yeah, I can influencethis, you know there's, there's
things that I can certainly do.
There's, there's, there arevariables that I can try to
(15:37):
control, but the outcome we'llsee, and that's part of the
excitement as well, that's partof the discovery that we were
just talking about.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I'm literally staring at one of my ceramic pieces
from my freshman year of college.
That's just like sitting hereon my shelf.
It's a whole.
Let me grab it.
If you're listening, you'regoing to have to listen to us,
or you can pop over to Spotifyor YouTube and watch the video
version, cause I'm going to showyou here.
(16:06):
Listen because I'm going to showyou a piece here.
Listen to you being aprofessional doing a live read.
But she got me excited, likethinking of these old pieces
that I used to do in college andthese figures, you know, when I
was a huge.
Well, I still am a huge toolfan, but all of the tool videos
inspired me to do all theselittle figures.
And then I just look what'sthat?
Did you make that pedestal aswell?
No, that was an old somethingthat I found in a trash can.
(16:28):
A little ready-made, yeah, alittle ready-made, but yeah, I
mean gosh, everything about thatis just.
I love the nature of all.
Bets are off.
I'm going for it.
If it works out, it works out.
If it doesn't, it doesn't.
But I'm going to keep rollingfor it.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
If it works out, it works out.
If it doesn't, it doesn't.
But I'm going to keep rolling.
I have this reference book thathas photographs of every work
and then notes on what I did.
If one glaze is under anotherglaze or on top of it, it will
be chemically completelydifferent and fire completely
different.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
This is a great example of the intelligence of a
seasoned artist, to me Likekeeping a reference book on
every work that she has and thenotes on what she did.
She's keeping this record ofthings so that she knows how to
(17:26):
keep going and how to keep doingit.
Well, you know and I meanthat's we've talked about this
that we both keep track right.
I have a record of all my work.
I have notes on work.
I have little essays on workand bodies of work that I've
written.
I video everything I do.
I'd say 90% studies.
I don't really video as much,but 90% of everything I have
(17:47):
video records of, so I can goback and see how I did it, what
was I using, how did this work,what didn't work.
But I think too, if you make ithow wonderful that the world
gets all your notes and all yourrecords and all those images
and all those things, right, ifyou become a historical figure
in art, in history, the fact wecan go back and read Jack
(18:11):
Whitten's notes from thewoodshed and read all of his
notes in his journals on thethings he was doing, like those
things, like what a gift to theworld.
That's just my own personalopinion.
I'm like, hey, artists, what ifyou are the next person that
makes it?
Please record everything sothat some 20-year-old kid finds
it in a used bookshop or an artstore and then studies you and
(18:34):
you inspire their life and theirjourney as an artist.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
We've officially made our obligatory notes from the
woodshed reference for thisepisode and I think we're on a
really good streak with that.
We got to check that box.
You know, one of us has toswear so that we can maintain
our explicit rating.
Check and check.
We're good, it's all gravy fromhere.
You know, it's one of the thingsthat she references in that
(19:00):
Freeze Masters podcast that Ilove was she was talking about
inspiration and she said shejust kind of addresses the
misnomer of artists, just youknow, being inspired.
And she said a boringscientific method.
She's like it's just scientificmethod.
I record all the variables, youknow she writes it down, tracks
(19:20):
what works, what doesn't, and Ithink it's just to me the the
studying of her own practice andprocess.
You know we have to be expertsat our own craft and knowing
what we're doing that gets theresults that we want and those
that we don't.
And this is something that I didnot do when I first started.
(19:41):
It was just wildexperimentation and let's just
see what happens.
And I made a lot of progress interms of figuring certain
things out, but I got to a pointa few years ago where I was
like I have to start recordingthese things, because it happens
all the time where I make a lotof elements and pieces that I
don't know what I'm going to dowith them or how they're going
(20:01):
to coexist with other elementsthat haven't even been made yet,
for example.
But there's nothing worse thancoming back to something and
being like, oh, that'sphenomenal.
And being like how did I?
What was the ratio?
Because there are, becausethere are so many variables.
You know I don't work withglazes, but you know, when she
was talking about just thesequence of things, even if all
(20:22):
other variables remain constant,the sequence of things, the
timing of it, all of it matters,and so really studying our own
practice and really putting inthe time I mean that's something
I think that that has helped mejust in an attempt to, you know
, mature as an artist is to putin the time to be able to test
and record these things.
You know, I've got somesculptures that I'm working on
(20:44):
right now and I've got a piecethat's that's getting really
close and I don't know howexactly I'm going to finish it,
and so I spent the last weekjust making four individual, you
know test pieces that you knoware are close to what's going to
be the finished piece, so thatI can test A, b, c and D.
And then there'll be theirpaths will diverge and then I'll
(21:07):
do another step Right.
But it's all about justrecording it and really making
those decisions intentionally,with the ability to replicate or
revisit them at any point downthe road.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
One day I just felt how happy I was here and how I
was actually getting to live myfantasy that, being an artist
working in a studio, I hadcreated both a farm and a
factory.
In the studio I had createdboth a farm and a factory and
(21:43):
when I thought about it, theessence of that desire was
really wanting to know howthings were made.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
So there's two parts of that, ty, that really stuck
out to me.
That all is one quote, butthere's two distinctly separate
takeaways for me, anyway, thefirst thing that jumped out to
me was just the intensegratitude that we ought to carry
with us every day.
Yeah, I have so many just pinchmyself moments where it's like,
(22:09):
is this real?
Do I really get to just do thisall the time?
I mean, it's it's, it's such agift to be able to in our words,
you know, live my fantasy, andI think that that is a it's a
great default mindset in generalto to find things to be
(22:31):
grateful for.
To be thankful for, of course,but I think it's especially
important when we're not feelingthat, when we are like you were
the other day, fighting withthe work, feeling like nothing's
working.
You know, believe in all of theyou know shitty voices in our
head that are telling us all thelies about how this sucks.
(22:52):
We suck, blah, blah, blah.
To come back to like, yeah, butI get to do this and back to
what we were talking aboutbefore, with just the belief
that it may, it might not beworking right now, but it will,
it will again.
So just the thankfulness andjust that gratitude of like, wow
, we, we get to do this.
All right, yeah, let's suitback up and try again tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Like you said, like the other day when I sent you
that message and I was like I'mbattling, I'm fighting right now
, but I was able to step backbecause of time and go.
But man, I'm so glad I get tofight, so glad I get to battle.
I mean I'm spending an entireday cussing, pointing, standing,
(23:36):
looking, messing up and reallyliterally in a fistfight with
these two paintings and thengoing.
I get to fight with paintingsall day long.
Yeah, and I think I like thatshe says one day I just felt how
happy I was here.
It's like there was a momentwhen it clicked.
(23:57):
Yeah, right, and I think for somany of us it's part of being
an artist is learning how towait.
Like we talked about patience afew episodes ago, I think, and
we just talked about howpatience is so important.
The real art of art is patienceand that really is learning how
to wait.
And I think to me her sayingthat it's kind of like all of a
(24:19):
sudden, one day it clicked.
Because we're all fighting atsome point as an art, as as an
artist, we're fighting throughsomething that is so hard to try
to get to the point where we'rereally happy in the moment and
no matter what's going on, if wehave to go to work in the
morning and we're working on ourart at night, we need that
moment to click where we just go.
(24:40):
I'm so happy that I get to dothis and the moments I get to do
it and I'm here and I alwaystell artists that have gone
through my program who workfull-time jobs, part-time jobs,
multiple jobs figure out a wayto tell yourself at work.
I'm so glad I have this job.
That is pain for me to make art.
I'm so glad I have this abilityto wait tables.
(25:03):
I'm so glad I have this abilityto do X, y or Z, because it is
pain for me to make art.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
The second part of that clip that I really enjoyed.
That, I think, is kind of aseparate idea, at least for me,
is.
You know, when I thought aboutit, the essence of that desire
was really wanting to know howthings were made.
And this comes back to justthat insatiable curiosity that I
think we all have.
I mean, that's one of the mostcommon characteristics that all
artists share.
For her, it expresses itself inthat how are these things made?
(25:34):
It's one of the cool we're notgoing to play this quote but one
of the cool stories she shares,you know, in this video is just
, even as a kid, just alwayswondering like where'd this come
from?
How was, how was this even made?
You know, and that's just areally it's a cool sort of
origin story.
Thinking back to our LeonardoDrew episode, you know, where he
talks about just hisfascination with different
(25:54):
things and the things that he'sexposed to, you know, in
childhood, you know, living nearthe dump, and just how those
things really they make veryimpactful imprints on us.
That, again, just the blessingthat is to be to be an artist we
get to spend time with andexplore and pack as adults.
It's, it's, it's incredible.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Well, in the right, in the middle of the first quote
we talked about and this one,in this last quote she says I
created both a farm and afactory, and she talked about it
as a child.
My parents say what do you wantto do?
She said I want to work in afactory because she had that
interest in how things are made.
So I want to work in thefactory and find out how all
this stuff's made.
(26:35):
But I love that.
She says it's just like one dayoh my gosh, I've created a farm
and a factory.
She created a place thatcultivates growth.
Yeah, right, a farm, like you'regrowing things, whether that's
crops or whether that's animals,something that's you're
planting a seed and you'regrowing it to its full, and then
it's a factory because, at theend of the day, she made
(26:56):
something that she's putting outinto the world for somebody
else.
Right, the factory.
So I just love that.
Her childhood caught up to her,her childhood dream of wanting
to work in a factory.
Well, she actually created it.
Yeah, I don't know.
It's pretty awesome.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
I laugh when I heard her say that because my she
laughed too.
Yes, she sure did.
From the ages of, I think,maybe just for two years or so,
but when I was between two andfive maybe two and a half, three
years, but very impactful sortof toddlerhood years we lived on
my uncle and aunt's farm, mymom's brother, and we lived like
(27:36):
a half mile down from the mainfarm house and like an old house
that hadn't been lived in andhasn't been since.
There was cardboard on thewindows to keep the cold out in
the Minnesota winters.
But I would ride my Hot Wheelsand so if mom lost track of me
during the day whatever three,four years old so I would get on
(27:57):
my little Hot Wheels and Iwould ride down to the main farm
and I would watch my uncle andmy older cousins, you know, feed
the cows, milk the cows.
But being in the tool shedbecause when you're a farmer
almost everything happens.
Unfortunately, the age of thefamily-owned farm is going the
(28:20):
way of the dinosaur.
But for a family-owned farm youhave to do everything.
You're fabricating, you'rewelding, you're fixing
everything yourself.
Every trip to the implement todo a proper repair is really
expensive and those farmersaren't making a ton of money,
most of them.
So it was just so interestingto see to be in the tool shed.
What's, what's this for, uncle?
(28:41):
No, what's this?
What does this?
Do you know?
And just the imprint that thatmakes, uh, but I would tell my.
I remember telling my mom anddad I want to be a farmer.
You know, when I grow, becauseI was just fascinated with
everything that was involved in,not just whatever raising corn
or having a dairy farm, buteverything that went around, the
(29:01):
whole mechanics of it, thewhole machine that was working
farm.
It left an imprint on me forsure.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
I love every kind of industrial architecture,
industry in general, tools.
What some person might think ofas mechanized and frightening,
I think of as mechanized andfascinating.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Okay, I mean, this just lit me up.
What was it made for?
How was this meant to be used?
And then, how could I?
Where my mind goes is, howcould I misuse it?
I was at there's a new, a newstore in my area called Acme
tool, and so, you know, I spenta lot of time on.
(29:48):
I spend a lot of time at homeDepot.
I buy a lot of my tools, youknow, online if I can't, if
they're more specialized.
But this Acme tool place, uh,they've got like proper
industrial tools for you know,real, Are they down there as
well in Texas?
Yeah, Are they over?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
there, okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
So I should have recorded this.
So I'll go there looking forone thing in particular that I
need, and then I'll just walkaround and Dream about how you
could utilize everything else.
Yes, and I'll ask an employee Iusually look for the older the
employee, the more they know.
You know, if it's a young kid,they're just it's a job and
(30:26):
they've never used these tools.
But so the other day this isthis last week I found this I
mean you can usually tell bylike the size of their wrists
how grizzled their hands are.
I was like, okay, larry's myguy, he's welding, he's this
guy's seen some shit, he's useda lot of these tools, right.
So I was like, hey, what's thisfor?
Just like a little kid, justlike, hey, what's this for?
(30:50):
I mean, I know enough abouttools to have a general idea,
but just asking like, okay, howdoes it work If it's a rotary
tool of some kind?
What's the RPM range?
Like, how does so?
I'm not in most cases obviouslygonna, you know, start, uh,
become a general contractor andstart using all these things for
their intended purpose.
But it's just that like, ooh,what could this be?
(31:11):
You know that fascinate, that,that that thinking of it, as you
know, mechanized andfascinating is just, you know,
that's that's where I feel areal kindred spirit with Arlene,
when I was growing up workingconstruction in high school and
college, just as a grunt on jobsites.
This brought back a memory forme I would.
(31:32):
One of the common things whenyou're building homes is using
expanding foam for installingwindows or really all over the
house just for insulationpurposes, and it's a really fun.
I've got some.
I use it in the studio now aswell, but it's so fun because it
comes out in a liquid right.
It expands, it hardens, and sowhat I would do while I was on
(31:52):
the clock and getting paid to dothe work is I would use the
expanding foam.
Or if somebody else had donesomething on you know, installed
some windows in a certain area,I'd clock at my mind and then
during the coffee break or lunchbreak I would go over with my
utility knife and I would justcarve out little sculptures and
make little installations.
(32:12):
So it was like all right, howquickly can I hydrate and get
some food in me and then playfor the remaining whatever 10 or
15 minutes that I had beforethe foreman said, all right,
gang back to work.
But it's just so fun.
You know, I mean the YouTuberabbit holes that I go down.
I learned way more about what Iwant to try back here from you
know tutorials and YouTubevideos on everything from
(32:34):
manufacturing to fabrication.
To what was I watching theother day?
Yeah, it was a lot of uh uh,auto body part fabrication for,
like, restoring old vehicles,and how they take you know sheet
metal and make you know fendersor any parts that they couldn't
buy even if they wanted to.
Yeah, and it's just the the,the fascination with that and
(32:54):
like again, what?
What?
It's funny, I told larry atacme the other day I said yeah,
he's like what do you do?
I said so, I kind of explainedmy yeah, he's like what do you
do?
I said so, I kind of explainedmy thing and he's like oh, okay,
and I said yeah, so for me, ifI can get like 20 to 30% of the
skill of a proper you knowtrades person, that that's,
that's enough for me If I canjust get it to work and get a
(33:16):
little bit.
Yeah, exactly.
So I was talking to him aboutwelding and he's like well, so I
was kind of picking his brainabout rebar, which I I've.
I got an amazing batch of rebarfrom a demolition site that I
um let myself onto and uh yeah,you sent me pictures.
Yeah, um, and so I was askinghim some questions about that,
cause he had some experiencewith with well, and he goes.
(33:38):
So he's kind of walking methrough it and and he goes.
I mean you got to be careful.
This might not be structurallysound and I was like it's all
right as long as it stands up,I'm good, this is not going to
be.
you know, this is not amotivation situation Correct and
so, again, just getting to that20, 30%.
You know range of skill, butit's it's going back to that
fascination with the um, withthe manufacturing, with the
(34:01):
mechanization, how things aremeant to be made.
That just lit me up.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah, when I was in Marfa for the Marfa Invitational
a while back, our buddy, eric,and I were at the Arbor's print
shop and Robert Arbor was DonaldJudd's printer and he's one of
the most known printers in ourhistory who's printed for
numerous historical figures, andso he had a lot of different
(34:28):
toys and different things inthere, and eric and I, of course
, were geeking out over everylittle possibility we could use
it for in our work.
Could this work for us?
And he had, uh, I think it wasan atomizer or forget what the
name of that gun that we sentyou pictures of, and we were
looking it up on eBay where youcan take two different materials
and it melts it and sprays itout onto things.
(34:49):
So you can.
It's an incredible tool.
And he had shown us how hesprayed it on insulation and
foam and it made it look metaland gold and silver and platinum
and so, but, yeah, any of thosethings you know, eric and I
were going, oh, I bet we could.
Oh, how would that work on?
Ooh, that work on canvas, couldwe?
You know so, but I love that.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
It's on my wishlist for sure.
It is not, uh, an a cheap oraffordable toy.
No, not at all.
I was joking with Eric.
I said you know what if we madelike some balloon animals and
then we sprayed it with thisshiny metal material?
I mean, has anybody done that?
Speaker 1 (35:26):
I mean we could actually sell it just like in
gift shops in the world and justit's funny.
The installation is the wholething, and that's a very big
idea.
I think actually I'm aninstallation artist who makes
objects.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
In that scene there's a guy walking around her work
in a museum who looks exactlylike.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
Nathan Felder, by the way.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Nathan, for you he did?
Speaker 3 (35:56):
He did Right, I had an adult take.
I'm like, is that?
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Is that Nathan Felder ?
Something funny is going tohappen here really quick.
But so this gentleman iswalking around looking at the
work and moving through, as shesays, the installation is the
whole thing and that's a verybig idea.
I think actually I'm aninstallation artist who makes
objects, that whole.
I kept rewinding that back andkind of listening and looking
(36:23):
because they're sculptures,right, and they're not.
It's not a full room with likeone thing that you kind of walk
in and move around right, like atypical installation would be.
But yet the way that she'sviewing how somebody is going to
view her work, she's definingwho she is as an artist.
She's saying, yeah, I sculpt,yes, I use clay, but I'm not a
(36:49):
ceramicist, I'm not just asculptor, and I love that she's
actually defining herself,because I think it's really easy
for us to get wrapped up in howsomebody else defines us as
artists, or how history shoulddefine you, or what this,
whatever, whatever, whatever.
And I'm always encouragingartists that go through my
(37:10):
mentorship program.
No, no, no, let's defineyourself.
Don't just say I'm X.
Let's figure out, like, whatare the things you love, what
are the emotions that are goinginto it, what is inspiring you,
what are elements that arewrapped up within you from
history, and let's figure out away to define yourself, and I
love how she does that.
I just think that's reallyimportant.
I think it's absolutelywonderful when I heard her
(37:32):
define herself, and that playsinto the next quote as well that
we'll talk about in a minute.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
I wanted to reference something from the Freeze
Masters podcast, so she goesinto depth with the interviewer
about her relationship with howthe work is experienced to your
point, about installation,specifically the viewing angle
and the height at which it isseen, and hopefully you all will
go and watch this R21 video aswell, but you'll notice that
(37:58):
pedestals are at very differentheights.
Some of the pieces are on thefloor, Some of them are at eye
level even for me and Ty andeverything in between, and so
she talks about how she wantedto.
When she was trying to figureout how these were going to live
in space and how they're goingto be seen, how she wanted to
(38:19):
have control over that andreally direct the viewing angles
and the experience, and shesaid so I realized I just had to
make my own pedestals, and sothe pedestal is part of the work
itself, and so it was a superwide range of metal and
plexiglass and wood and cementthat she uses for that purpose.
(38:40):
But that really that reallyunlocked something for me and
and I think this, this, this iswhy I mean selfishly, why we do
this tie, these conversationsthat we have, even if we weren't
, you know whatever recording itand putting it out into the
world.
But it's like we can learn somuch about our practice by
listening to other artists talkabout theirs.
Yes, so what that unlocked forme.
(39:02):
So, as I've been moving intosculpture, that's a thought that
I've been really wrestling withis like, okay, how, based on
how, how tall or big they I meansomething's gonna hang on the
wall you put it at whatever theappropriate height would be for
the space.
Pretty simple, Sculpture'sdifferent, you know, and so I'm
(39:24):
just like how are these going tolive and exist in space when
they're seen?
And this just unlocks somethingfor me.
So, again, it just goes to whenwe can listen to and learn from
masters like Arlene who havebeen doing this for over five
decades, that's how we canreally accelerate our own
understanding of what we'retrying to do.
Like that, really, for me, Iwill.
I will think about this and Iwill reference this for years to
come, just because we areactively in the game of studying
(39:49):
and learning from others.
That's the magic, you know, ofreally diving into and we talk
about all the time, whether it's, you know, reading books,
listening to interviews.
I mean we're we're superfortunate to live in an age
where videos like this exist.
I mean, imagine if YouTube andvideo, whatever formats like
this, had existed for the last200 years or 2000 years.
(40:13):
I mean, how amazing would it beto be able to see and hear the
greats that we can only reallystudy the work and maybe some of
their writings from years ago.
It's such a tremendousadvantage that we have in the
modern era, so take advantage ofit.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Well, we learned last week or last episode.
Roberta Smith said once thework leaves your studio, it's no
longer yours, right, and wetalk about that at length.
But there are certain things wecan control as artists.
We can control the work, whatwe're making, how we're making
it, but we can also control howthat works displayed.
(40:52):
Yeah, and you should controlthat.
If you're a sculptor, you haveeven more emphasis on how your
work is displayed than a painter, right, unless you're painting
something that's supposed to beon the ceiling or on the floor
or whatever.
But for a sculptor, right, foran installation artist, you have
to control the setting.
(41:12):
Like that's part of the piece,that's part of it.
So I've talked to you aboutthis, I've talked to Allison
about this, our friend Eric,other artists in my program who
sculpt and do things like youneed to make sure you have
complete control over how it'slit, how it's featured.
Is it hanging from the ceiling,is it on the floor, is it up
against the walls and in thecorners and middle of the room?
(41:32):
You need to control thosethings because once it's out and
there, you can't control howthe viewers thinks, what they
think about it, how they view it, all those things, but you need
to have it in its right naturalsetting and how you intended
that work to be shown, and Ithink that's what she did.
That's the beauty of thepedestals is she knew there's
(41:53):
still another step missing here.
For me, I need to create thepedestals because I want my work
to be viewed as an installation, not as a sculpture, on a 24 by
24, four foot pedestal right.
No, it's all different Low,high, wide, big, all those
things and I think that's shefigured it out and said no, no,
no, the essence of my work isn'tjust the work, but it's how
(42:16):
it's displayed as well.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
I want to make something more than an idea.
I don't want anybody to be ableto describe the pieces too
easily.
I want to make things that aremore open-ended than that.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
That's the big challenge.
That is the big challenge, likethat's what keeps me up at
night.
That, right there, I do, I wantto make something that's more
than just the idea.
That, right there, I do, I wantto make something that's more
than just the idea.
I want to make something thatyou can't just answer right away
.
You can't have like a oh that'sit, walk away.
(42:53):
Right, I want it to beopen-ended.
I want somebody to walk awayand then have to come back.
I want discovery, I want thingsin there.
You know, and as a painter,that's that's a.
That's a big, big challenge, Ithink.
(43:13):
I personally believe thatsculptors, three-dimensional
artists, have a lot easier wayof doing that than painters.
Because it is three-dimensional, it can be viewed in multiple
things.
A person can move around it andsee from four, five, six
different angles and continue tosearch and fight, rather than
just a two-dimensional plane,which is why I still love to
sculpt.
(43:34):
But to me, that just bringssuch an even greater challenge
of how do I find things inmaterial, not just how it looks
in the finished product, but byadding material and adding
texture, and adding layers anddifferent types of mediums and
things, non-traditional elements, into it in order to allow
(43:57):
those moments to happen.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Yeah, I'm always saying yes to new situations.
If I keep creating a closedsystem, then I'm not
uncomfortable enough to pushsome boundary.
Here we go.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
I mean, that's it so much, goodness.
Oh, you know the the.
The important thing about thatto me is is what we want to
avoid in order to get what wewant.
We want to avoid a closedsystem.
We want to avoid somethingwhere it's.
This is what it is, this is howit goes, and we're staying on
(44:38):
the interstate, the well-wornpath, and so what we want is to
continue to keep pushingboundaries right.
So, acknowledging what we don'twant, acknowledging what the
potential obstacles to what wewant might be, in this case,
falling into a certain I don'twant to say groove, but the trap
(44:58):
of replicating a slightlydifferent version of what we've
done, you know, indefinitely.
That, to me, is that's whywe're doing this, that's what
gets me fired up, that's whatgets you know, seeking that
(45:21):
discomfort, something we'vetalked about many times, you
know before.
But we have to seek thatdiscomfort in order to push
those boundaries.
It's necessary.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
I hate comfort.
I really do personally, I justdon't like it.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
That's the thing, though you don't hate it.
We all.
We all seek comfort.
I mean, that's not.
That's not.
I'm going to one of the raremoments where you and I are
going to disagree.
You love comfort, we all Let melay it out for you.
We're wired for it.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
I never stayed at one job too long Okay, because the
second and even in in businessesthat I started, or even in
places I've gone and helpedbuild the second, I got
comfortable.
I was out.
The challenge didn't existanymore.
I've lived plenty of places allover the world, constantly
moved, constantly gone to places, new things.
(46:13):
Even as a kid I even hadmentors who were like I'm really
worried about you.
I remember the first teacher whowas one of my heroes growing up
, in fourth grade it was mydad's best friend as well.
This was on Mr Davis' deathbedbecause he had cancer.
It was my first experience withcancer and death as a child.
But fourth grade actually Ithink it was seventh grade I was
(46:43):
sitting on his bed at his house.
I was in the living room and Iwas just kind of the last chance
ever talking with him.
You know, time was coming and Iwas sitting with Mr Davis and
he said you know, ty, I'm reallyworried about you.
And I was like why?
And he's like because you haveso many things you like and so
(47:04):
many avenues you want to chaseand you're always fighting
comfort that I'm worried, you'renever going to find something.
This is like seventh grade,right and he was saying you're
very good at a lot of differentthings that you have a passion
for, but find something andreally stick with it and really
go for it.
That's lasted with me to thisday, mr Davis saying that on his
(47:27):
deathbed like justa monumentalmoment in my life.
I still talk to his daughter,nikki we're the same age pretty
regularly and she's followed myart all these years, but I have
my whole life.
I've found like when thingsstart to get comfortable, I get
very uncomfortable and I thinkit's because I have this pursuit
(47:48):
of growth that I've always hadkind of burned in me, this
pursuit of discovery and newthings, and so anytime I feel
stagnant and that can be fromanything, that could be from my
own personal faith, that can befrom my own personal like
journeys, all these differentthings If I start to get
comfortable, I don't want to bein a place of diluted personal
(48:11):
growth where I get stagnant, mythoughts get stagnant, what I'm
learning becomes stagnantBecause all of a sudden I'm in
that comfortable zone and I feellike I'm going to die, like I
really have, I don't knowwhatever that is within me and
my character, personality.
I feel like that's death for me, and so I think that's also for
(48:33):
my art, kind of a superpowerthat anytime I start to feel
comfortable, I switch.
Yeah, all of a sudden I go.
I've been doing this too long.
I'm starting to kind of getinto a zone of comfort here.
It's time to just switch.
You know, and I there's been adetriment to that at times
because I've I when I go backand I was cataloging all my work
(48:55):
, I was like I sold almost everysingle piece in that entire
collection.
Why didn't I keep making it foranother six months, right, and
make more money off what wasworking?
Well, it's because I got tothat point where that comfort
started to kind of come in and Iwent no, no, no, no, it's time
to grow complete cutoff and justmove on.
So, um, but I think that's.
(49:16):
But because of that I'm pushingthe boundary, some boundary
Don't know what that is, but I'mpushing that boundary because I
don't want that boundary tocreep up on me.
I want to keep chasing it.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (49:29):
It does, yeah, and I mean you're more of an expert on
you than I am, so I'm not goingto tell you what's true for you
.
I was referencing, more broadlyspeaking, just the human nature
what's baked into our DNA from,just from a survival standpoint,
you know, you think aboutMaslow's hierarchy of needs.
I mean, a lot of basic thingsneed to be in place.
(49:49):
You know our physiologicalneeds, you know safety needs, et
cetera, before we get to thepinnacle of self-actualization,
right?
So there's a lot to be said forjust acknowledging that, as
humans, we are oriented towardssafety.
And what I'm hearing from whatyou're saying is that you have
(50:12):
prioritized the pursuit ofgrowth, would argue as a, as a
preeminent expert on you, Iwould.
I would tell you that becauseyou've prioritized what
discomfort does for you, it'smore natural for you to get out
(50:33):
of comfort, right, or to toalmost be put off by it, because
you're so consumed and excitedabout what discomfort does.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
Yeah, Well, it's kind of like I think it's Carl Jung
who said if you don't act, thenyou're stuck in this hell, Right
.
So it's like that.
If you're not constantly likepushing and actually doing
something, then you're stuck inthat.
And I've always kind of viewedthat as like and maybe comfort's
not the right word I don't wantto not be growing.
Yeah, Yep, I don't want to not.
(51:06):
I was telling Mandy this theother day we were sitting and
talking about it because I havea five-week residency coming up
and it's like I don't want tostop traveling.
And as I get older, right,those things become less and
less.
And all my artists that I loveand I'm reading, they're
constantly traveling, they'reconstantly experiencing new
cultures.
They're even the ones whocouldn't afford it or forcing
(51:28):
their way to go be in anotherculture and do things.
Right.
Jack Whitten spent every summerin Greece sculpting and doing
ceramics and that part of thatculture, just like, captivated
him and help, you know, it helpshis work grow and move and
change.
And so, you know, I kind of fallinto that and it's not easy.
It's easy to do that today.
You can hop on a plane and goanywhere you want, but
(51:48):
financially it's not as easy todo that today either.
So you know, you get kind ofcaught in that.
I got to figure out oh, I needto go to Houston, when do I need
to go?
I need to go do something likethat extrovert in me which we'll
talk about this probably nextweek, when you're here at my
house at my studio and we recorda few episodes.
But that, uh, that forcedintrovert in me, the real me,
(52:10):
the extrovert house, is fightingthat all the time, constantly
fighting and pushing me to go.
You need to go, you need to go.
But then it's like, ah, but Ineed to work 10 hours today, I
need to get all this work donein the studio.
Speaker 3 (52:23):
There's constant battle which is going to be a
good conversation next week.
I'm excited to have it becausewe are on opposite end of that
spectrum for sure.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
You know, what you're saying reminds me of a book
that I'm just wrapping up rightnow.
I think I might've referencedit a few pods ago the Explorer's
Gene by Alex Hutchinson.
Yeah, I'm going to do a littlesolo episode on it because there
are a lot of really interestingparallels into art and our
practices as artists.
But I'm going to share a quotefrom that Exploration is the
anti-habit, the antidote to adiminished palette of life
(52:50):
choices.
We're wired to seek out theunknown, to embrace the
challenges we find there and tofind meaning in the pursuit.
So I will co-sign your reframein terms of, of, of, because you
needed me to do that to moveabout your day.
But uh, you know, it's that'swhat.
(53:12):
It is right, it's the, it's thechallenges that we're seeking
out, finding meaning in thepursuit of possibility, of what
could be, what could.
That's, that's what it's about.
Yep, thanks for joining us.
That concludes today's episode,does it no, or?
Speaker 2 (53:28):
doesn't it, it does, it does hey, all right, hey,
that's it thanks for joining usfor today's episode of just make
our podcast.
Speaker 3 (53:37):
You can find us on youtube.
Definitely go watch this Art21video.
It's phenomenal, and I wouldalso recommend checking out that
Freeze Masters podcast as well.
That's on all the podcastplaces that you would find.
And join us next time forwhatever's next.
Actually, we know what's goingto be next.
I'm coming to you in just a fewdays.
(53:58):
We're going to record a coupleof episodes live in that very
studio, so I'm excited for that,yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
So go be uncomfortable in your studio
today.
Here we go, all right.
one of the great things about making art is that
you get to make things and thenlisten to those things and pay
attention to those things yep, I, I agree.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Same, 100% sincere agreement.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Next quote we're adding a lot to this, and thanks
for listening.
I guess just go listen to theoriginal or watch the original
video.
No, so one thing that came tomind for me on that one, ty, was
just the call and responserelationship with the work,
something we've discussed manytimes before and certainly
(00:50):
something that we'll come backto certainly again.
But it's just that, you know,think about music, about public
gatherings, that call responserelationship between you know
two active parties, you know inthe, in the equation, and
there's something about thatthat as time goes on, my
(01:11):
relationship with the workdeepens, and the more I think I
know, the more I realize I don't.
And so that's where thelistening is so important, right
?
Yeah, you talked the other dayabout.
You texted me something to theeffect of what was it?
We should pull it up.
What did you text me?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
When, what day and what time?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Yeah, what word did you use, though?
It was battling?
It was fighting, yeah, fighting, yeah.
Yeah, all of the above, yeah,and I just I think I responded
with a pithy little.
Have you?
Have you thought about justsitting down and listening for a
minute?
You didn't need to hear thatfrom me, but it's okay.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I mean that's.
I feel like that's.
All I'm doing right now is justbeing excited Number one about
making art, right Cause I get to, like she says, but just
listening to everything andtrying to pay attention to what
I'm listening to.
Yeah, and it's, it's right now.
Everything is changing everyday.
I'm playing with new things,I'm adding new stuff, I'm taking
away, I'm deconstructing, I'mreconstructing, I'm listening,
(02:14):
I'm looking and then I'm justkind of going okay, where are
you going?
Where are you going?
Oh, okay, Rewind right back,try again, move on next thing.
So I mean, even this morningbefore you and I hopped on and I
was rearranging things andlooking at stuff, adding some
pastel, getting some oil sticksout, like making some stuff, and
then going oh, that definitelywasn't where it was telling me
(02:38):
to go.
Okay, later today, after we'redone recording, I'll go in and F
around with that stuff.
But it's so fun, it's so fun.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
I don't care, it's so fun.
And as both parties change, theconversation changes.
Yeah, you know, it's easy tosort of get stuck in a certain
mode of like, oh, this is maybewhere this is headed, but then,
in Arlene's words, make thesethings, then listen to those
(03:06):
things and pay attention tothose things.
So all right, we've donesomething.
The things that we're havingconversations with have changed,
so the conversation itselfneeds to change, and so the
listening and the payingattention is is critically
important.
Why don't you give us a quickintro on our featured artist of
the day?
I'm super excited for thisconversation.
Yeah, a lot of really fun stuffwe're going to unpack today.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, this was a great find.
Obviously, you all know thatNathan and I are massive Art21
fans, so this is a great littleshort that they did on the
artist Arlene Sheckett.
And she's an American sculptorknown for her inventive and
gravity-defying arrangements andexperimental use of diverse
materials.
Perfect for Nathan, right,everybody.
(03:50):
She was born in 1951, and herabstract figurative forms often
function as metaphors for bodilyexperience, the human condition
, touching upon imperfection anduncertainty with humor and
pathos.
That's from her artiststatement, and New York Times
critic Holland Cotter wrote thather career has encompassed both
more or less traditionalceramic pots and wildly
(04:12):
experimental abstract forms,often displayed on fantastically
inventive pedestals.
And he says this is some of themost imaginative American
sculpture of the last 20 years.
Her work has been in so manyplaces, from the Met to the
National Gallery, art LACMA.
She's exhibited in the WhitneyInstitute of Contemporary Art,
(04:35):
boston, the Frick Collection,and has been awarded so many
incredible things, like theGuggenheim Fellowship, she won
the Joan Mitchell Grant, I mean,her list just goes on and on.
And she's a native New Yorkerand lives and works in the
Hudson Valley.
And this was an incrediblediscovery, nathan finding Arlene
.
I don't know how I haven't seenher before or come across her
(04:56):
before.
But, like you and I were sayingearlier, we're absolutely in
love, completely in love.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Yeah, no, we'll talk a lot about this, but just, I
definitely feel the kindredspirit and a lot of the things
that she shares in the way thatshe thinks about and talks about
her work.
Uh, we'll come back to thepedestal part in particular,
because that really unlockedsomething for me just in
watching, watching this video aswe prepared for this.
So let's get into our nextquote from the art 21 video,
(05:22):
which, again, we always cite oursources and reference people
back to the source.
So this is a phenomenal video.
Of course, that's not just thequotes that we're going to share
audibly, but the video of thework and our process, and if
you're an art nerd, like Ty andI are, you'll love watching the
way she works and the entireprocess.
It's absolutely fascinating.
So here's our next quote.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I was thinking I have to have a real appetite for
ugly.
There are so many points wherethis thing is just hideous and
yet I have to believe in it andI have to go on with it.
But it might be something good.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Right, that's what I was saying when we opened, like
that's how I've been, like justgoing, uh, yeah, there's nothing
here and it just looks terrible, but I have to believe in it.
I have to believe in it becauseI'm going here for a reason and
a purpose.
Inside it's pushing me there.
So, no matter how shitty itlooks right now, how horrible
(06:27):
things are coming along, I haveto believe in it and go on with
it, because it might besomething good.
Yeah, and watching her.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
I don't want to be mean about it, but I you know.
You showed me a couple ofpictures.
It does look shitty right now.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
I don't want to be hard.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
I'm kidding, I'm joking, I'm joking.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
What did we talk about?
Curtis elephant skin rightRhino skin, rhino, skin, rhino,
skin.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Here we go.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
But watching her with the clay takes me back to art
school, and I started out inceramics.
I started out in clay andworked with clay for a long time
and just seeing her work withthe clay like it was bringing
back so many memories of thosemoments where you're like this
is just a blob, this is nothing,it's just form upon form upon
form upon form, with nothingthat's truly come to life yet.
(07:11):
But it's leading to life.
It's leading from these momentsof just wet glops of things
with fingerprints andthumbprints and movement in it.
That is leading somewhere and Ijust love, I love, I love when
people work with clay talk.
There's just it's, there's a,it's a different personality and
(07:31):
it's something that I justabsolutely adore hearing artists
that work with clay talk.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
I think we have to have that appetite for for ugly,
at least a tolerance for it.
I thought about this a whileback I don't remember when this
sort of like popped to mind, butI realized that every piece
goes through a very awkwardadolescence.
That's how I think about it.
If you ever looked atsomebody's photo wall, or if you
go to a graduation or somethingor a wedding where they show
(08:01):
the right every.
It was Ella's first day ofschool today.
We took first day photo right.
But as, as things progress,even adults every adult right
goes through this, these awkwardphases where you're like and
everyone probably has like that,those those two or three years,
great middle school, whateveryou're like, can we just leave
those pictures off right?
(08:21):
I mean, at one point I hadbraces, I had a bit of a mullet.
I don't know how this happenedin my school, but there guys
would get a perm in back.
So I can.
Now you're going to make meshare this photo.
I will, I'll find it, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
You're going to have to send it to me.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
That'd be great, um, but, uh, so braces, um, short
buzzed hair on the side, somelines, okay, okay.
And then short buzzed hair onthe side, some lines, okay, okay
.
And then a little bit of amullet in back with a perm okay,
that's not ever going to be myprofile photo.
That's not.
That's not a phase of life.
It should be.
It's just funny.
It should be, yeah, it's funnynow, you know.
But we all, we all as people, gothrough these, this adolescent
(09:00):
phase where we're changing from,we're transitioning from.
You know one phase of life whenwe're you know we're
transitioning from.
You know one phase of lifewhere you know, cute, adorable
kids, everything's just like thework, everything's free, it's
nothing but possibility, andthen, before it gets to be, it's
fully formed, you know,finished thing, it's, it's
something else and, in her words, ugly, hideous.
But it's that belief that it'sgoing to be coming back to the
(09:23):
work, it's that belief, it'sthat faith that it could be
something good which, even if wereally break down the way she
thinks about it, it might besomething good.
It might also not, and that'sokay.
We have to accept thatpossibility as well.
But it's that belief, thatfaith that it might be something
good that carries us throughthe hideous ugly phases.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Well, and I think I like that she uses the word an
appetite for ugly.
So it's just like I meanthinking about.
There's a natural desire, yeah,there's an appetite for that,
and she has to have itAbsolutely, because starting
with an idea is always ugly.
If you don't have an appetitefor what that beginning part is,
(10:11):
which is the hardest part towork through, there's an
ugliness to it, it's anawkwardness, it's a not natural
moment the new idea, the newthing, and so if you don't have
an appetite for it, you skip it,you move on, you go on to the
next thing and keep searchingfor what feels comfortable or
good, and I think that's why theartists like Arlene get to the
(10:33):
places where they're going,because that appetite is so
strong and it's always pushingthem Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
It's something the other source we're not going to
talk about it too much today.
We're mostly going to referencethe Art21 video.
But the other great podcastthat I would suggest people
listen to if you would like tohear Arlene discuss her work
more, is the Freeze Masterspodcast.
We'll reference that a couplemore times because there's some
really interesting things thatget discussed in that that
(10:59):
aren't covered in this art 21video.
But she talks about how and I'mgoing to paraphrase here but
she discusses how the process ofdiscovery for her is is crucial
to her work, especially for acareer that's that's spanned,
you know, as as long as as hersize.
She's in her seventies Now.
She's been at this for a longtime, but she she says in that
(11:21):
podcast it's like if I, if I,had to start work knowing how it
was going to turn out, I wouldhave gotten bored a long time
ago.
It is the discovery of whatit's going to become.
That is where the excitementand the interest she talks about
, the joy of discovering how apiece is going to evolve over
time, which is, yeah, I lovethat.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
That's the natural order for the artists who have
made it.
Like that story is justrepeated throughout history.
That love and that search fordiscovery is the artists who
have made it and who've had along, lasting career.
That's there.
I was just reading this morningabout a young Picasso right
after he moved to Paris and hewas copying Toulouse-Lautrec.
(12:05):
It was his hero.
So everything he was doing wasalmost an absolute copy of
Lautrec, and then a couple otherthings started to influence him
.
And then the blue period cameand so other artists started to.
But there was like this search,he's in love with this, but
then this new place in Paris andthese new artists and writers
that he was around in Paris atthat time started to influence
(12:26):
this direction.
And then all of a sudden youhave Picasso's Blue Period,
because he's just constantlysearching for that discovery and
then he goes oh, that's it.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
The really out of control part is this thing that
I slave over or I play with willdry for several months and then
it will go into a kiln of over2,000 degrees and that's nuts.
And then all bets are off.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Been there so many times pulling broken clay out of
the kiln, pulling the piecesthat just all bets were off at
that moment, cause you justdon't know, like you're hoping
you have all the air bubbles outof the thicker parts, you're
hoping you have reinforcedmoments within spots that have
more weight or less weight, butthen at the end of the day you
(13:22):
put it in and you just wait and,honestly, all bets are off.
Did did it fire the way youwanted it to?
Did it actually do the thingsyou were hoping?
Was your structure reinforced?
Were you able to?
You know?
I mean every little thing thatgoes into that.
And then the next step too, justthe glaze.
Sometimes the glaze doesn'tcome out the way you want to,
(13:42):
it's completely, and then it'sruined because it's not the way
you wanted it to.
And I think that's what I loveabout, as I said before, artists
that work with clay, is thereare so many unknown factors that
with a painting, I can alwayspaint over it.
But for a sculptor and somebodyworking with clay, if all bets
are off and it breaks in thekiln, you're back to square root
, one again and you got torefigure it out or move on to
(14:05):
the next thing, and there's justa big daring element within
that that I just find wonderful.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
And just the fascination with the process is
what really strikes me aboutthat.
That particular quote, becauseyou know, obviously at this
point she has been working withyou know, ceramics and it deeply
engaged in this process forquite some time.
And just to hear the excitementand just that pure curiosity,
it's nuts.
It's 2,000 degrees.
(14:34):
It's nuts.
When I heard her say that, Iwas thinking about and I haven't
been working with metal castingcertainly as long as she's been
working with ceramics, butevery single time I fire it up,
and copper, primarily, is whatI've been working with up to
this point, and the meltingpoint is 1,984 degrees, to be
(14:56):
specific.
But it's crazy, it's like I'mmelting metal and it's
absolutely fascinating to thinkabout, like how is this even
possible?
No, just the, the alchemy of itis is so exciting and fun
because you can influence theresult, but you can't fully
control it.
(15:17):
It's a lot of life, really.
There's things we can influence, very few things that we can
control, and so it is one ofthose, one of the many things
about the artistic practice thatI think mirrors a lot of things
that are valuable to understandabout life as a whole.
But just, yeah, I can influencethis, you know there's, there's
things that I can certainly do.
There's, there's, there arevariables that I can try to
(15:37):
control, but the outcome we'llsee, and that's part of the
excitement as well, that's partof the discovery that we were
just talking about.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I'm literally staring at one of my ceramic pieces
from my freshman year of college.
That's just like sitting hereon my shelf.
It's a whole.
Let me grab it.
If you're listening, you'regoing to have to listen to us,
or you can pop over to Spotifyor YouTube and watch the video
version, cause I'm going to showyou here.
(16:06):
Listen because I'm going to showyou a piece here.
Listen to you being aprofessional doing a live read.
But she got me excited, likethinking of these old pieces
that I used to do in college andthese figures, you know, when I
was a huge.
Well, I still am a huge toolfan, but all of the tool videos
inspired me to do all theselittle figures.
And then I just look what'sthat?
Did you make that pedestal aswell?
No, that was an old somethingthat I found in a trash can.
(16:28):
A little ready-made, yeah, alittle ready-made, but yeah, I
mean gosh, everything about thatis just.
I love the nature of all.
Bets are off.
I'm going for it.
If it works out, it works out.
If it doesn't, it doesn't.
But I'm going to keep rollingfor it.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
If it works out, it works out.
If it doesn't, it doesn't.
But I'm going to keep rolling.
I have this reference book thathas photographs of every work
and then notes on what I did.
If one glaze is under anotherglaze or on top of it, it will
be chemically completelydifferent and fire completely
different.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
This is a great example of the intelligence of a
seasoned artist, to me Likekeeping a reference book on
every work that she has and thenotes on what she did.
She's keeping this record ofthings so that she knows how to
(17:26):
keep going and how to keep doingit.
Well, you know and I meanthat's we've talked about this
that we both keep track right.
I have a record of all my work.
I have notes on work.
I have little essays on workand bodies of work that I've
written.
I video everything I do.
I'd say 90% studies.
I don't really video as much,but 90% of everything I have
(17:47):
video records of, so I can goback and see how I did it, what
was I using, how did this work,what didn't work.
But I think too, if you make ithow wonderful that the world
gets all your notes and all yourrecords and all those images
and all those things, right, ifyou become a historical figure
in art, in history, the fact wecan go back and read Jack
(18:11):
Whitten's notes from thewoodshed and read all of his
notes in his journals on thethings he was doing, like those
things, like what a gift to theworld.
That's just my own personalopinion.
I'm like, hey, artists, what ifyou are the next person that
makes it?
Please record everything sothat some 20-year-old kid finds
it in a used bookshop or an artstore and then studies you and
(18:34):
you inspire their life and theirjourney as an artist.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
We've officially made our obligatory notes from the
woodshed reference for thisepisode and I think we're on a
really good streak with that.
We got to check that box.
You know, one of us has toswear so that we can maintain
our explicit rating.
Check and check.
We're good, it's all gravy fromhere.
You know, it's one of the thingsthat she references in that
(19:00):
Freeze Masters podcast that Ilove was she was talking about
inspiration and she said shejust kind of addresses the
misnomer of artists, just youknow, being inspired.
And she said a boringscientific method.
She's like it's just scientificmethod.
I record all the variables, youknow she writes it down, tracks
(19:20):
what works, what doesn't, and Ithink it's just to me the the
studying of her own practice andprocess.
You know we have to be expertsat our own craft and knowing
what we're doing that gets theresults that we want and those
that we don't.
And this is something that I didnot do when I first started.
(19:41):
It was just wildexperimentation and let's just
see what happens.
And I made a lot of progress interms of figuring certain
things out, but I got to a pointa few years ago where I was
like I have to start recordingthese things, because it happens
all the time where I make a lotof elements and pieces that I
don't know what I'm going to dowith them or how they're going
(20:01):
to coexist with other elementsthat haven't even been made yet,
for example.
But there's nothing worse thancoming back to something and
being like, oh, that'sphenomenal.
And being like how did I?
What was the ratio?
Because there are, becausethere are so many variables.
You know I don't work withglazes, but you know, when she
was talking about just thesequence of things, even if all
(20:22):
other variables remain constant,the sequence of things, the
timing of it, all of it matters,and so really studying our own
practice and really putting inthe time I mean that's something
I think that that has helped mejust in an attempt to, you know
, mature as an artist is to putin the time to be able to test
and record these things.
You know, I've got somesculptures that I'm working on
(20:44):
right now and I've got a piecethat's that's getting really
close and I don't know howexactly I'm going to finish it,
and so I spent the last weekjust making four individual, you
know test pieces that you knoware are close to what's going to
be the finished piece, so thatI can test A, b, c and D.
And then there'll be theirpaths will diverge and then I'll
(21:07):
do another step Right.
But it's all about justrecording it and really making
those decisions intentionally,with the ability to replicate or
revisit them at any point downthe road.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
One day I just felt how happy I was here and how I
was actually getting to live myfantasy that, being an artist
working in a studio, I hadcreated both a farm and a
factory.
In the studio I had createdboth a farm and a factory and
(21:43):
when I thought about it, theessence of that desire was
really wanting to know howthings were made.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
So there's two parts of that, ty, that really stuck
out to me.
That all is one quote, butthere's two distinctly separate
takeaways for me, anyway, thefirst thing that jumped out to
me was just the intensegratitude that we ought to carry
with us every day.
Yeah, I have so many just pinchmyself moments where it's like,
(22:09):
is this real?
Do I really get to just do thisall the time?
I mean, it's it's, it's such agift to be able to in our words,
you know, live my fantasy, andI think that that is a it's a
great default mindset in generalto to find things to be
(22:31):
grateful for.
To be thankful for, of course,but I think it's especially
important when we're not feelingthat, when we are like you were
the other day, fighting withthe work, feeling like nothing's
working.
You know, believe in all of theyou know shitty voices in our
head that are telling us all thelies about how this sucks.
(22:52):
We suck, blah, blah, blah.
To come back to like, yeah, butI get to do this and back to
what we were talking aboutbefore, with just the belief
that it may, it might not beworking right now, but it will,
it will again.
So just the thankfulness andjust that gratitude of like, wow
, we, we get to do this.
All right, yeah, let's suitback up and try again tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Like you said, like the other day when I sent you
that message and I was like I'mbattling, I'm fighting right now
, but I was able to step backbecause of time and go.
But man, I'm so glad I get tofight, so glad I get to battle.
I mean I'm spending an entireday cussing, pointing, standing,
(23:36):
looking, messing up and reallyliterally in a fistfight with
these two paintings and thengoing.
I get to fight with paintingsall day long.
Yeah, and I think I like thatshe says one day I just felt how
happy I was here.
It's like there was a momentwhen it clicked.
(23:57):
Yeah, right, and I think for somany of us it's part of being
an artist is learning how towait.
Like we talked about patience afew episodes ago, I think, and
we just talked about howpatience is so important.
The real art of art is patienceand that really is learning how
to wait.
And I think to me her sayingthat it's kind of like all of a
(24:19):
sudden, one day it clicked.
Because we're all fighting atsome point as an art, as as an
artist, we're fighting throughsomething that is so hard to try
to get to the point where we'rereally happy in the moment and
no matter what's going on, if wehave to go to work in the
morning and we're working on ourart at night, we need that
moment to click where we just go.
(24:40):
I'm so happy that I get to dothis and the moments I get to do
it and I'm here and I alwaystell artists that have gone
through my program who workfull-time jobs, part-time jobs,
multiple jobs figure out a wayto tell yourself at work.
I'm so glad I have this job.
That is pain for me to make art.
I'm so glad I have this abilityto wait tables.
(25:03):
I'm so glad I have this abilityto do X, y or Z, because it is
pain for me to make art.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
The second part of that clip that I really enjoyed.
That, I think, is kind of aseparate idea, at least for me,
is.
You know, when I thought aboutit, the essence of that desire
was really wanting to know howthings were made.
And this comes back to justthat insatiable curiosity that I
think we all have.
I mean, that's one of the mostcommon characteristics that all
artists share.
For her, it expresses itself inthat how are these things made?
(25:34):
It's one of the cool we're notgoing to play this quote but one
of the cool stories she shares,you know, in this video is just
, even as a kid, just alwayswondering like where'd this come
from?
How was, how was this even made?
You know, and that's just areally it's a cool sort of
origin story.
Thinking back to our LeonardoDrew episode, you know, where he
talks about just hisfascination with different
(25:54):
things and the things that he'sexposed to, you know, in
childhood, you know, living nearthe dump, and just how those
things really they make veryimpactful imprints on us.
That, again, just the blessingthat is to be to be an artist we
get to spend time with andexplore and pack as adults.
It's, it's, it's incredible.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Well, in the right, in the middle of the first quote
we talked about and this one,in this last quote she says I
created both a farm and afactory, and she talked about it
as a child.
My parents say what do you wantto do?
She said I want to work in afactory because she had that
interest in how things are made.
So I want to work in thefactory and find out how all
this stuff's made.
(26:35):
But I love that.
She says it's just like one dayoh my gosh, I've created a farm
and a factory.
She created a place thatcultivates growth.
Yeah, right, a farm, like you'regrowing things, whether that's
crops or whether that's animals,something that's you're
planting a seed and you'regrowing it to its full, and then
it's a factory because, at theend of the day, she made
(26:56):
something that she's putting outinto the world for somebody
else.
Right, the factory.
So I just love that.
Her childhood caught up to her,her childhood dream of wanting
to work in a factory.
Well, she actually created it.
Yeah, I don't know.
It's pretty awesome.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
I laugh when I heard her say that because my she
laughed too.
Yes, she sure did.
From the ages of, I think,maybe just for two years or so,
but when I was between two andfive maybe two and a half, three
years, but very impactful sortof toddlerhood years we lived on
my uncle and aunt's farm, mymom's brother, and we lived like
(27:36):
a half mile down from the mainfarm house and like an old house
that hadn't been lived in andhasn't been since.
There was cardboard on thewindows to keep the cold out in
the Minnesota winters.
But I would ride my Hot Wheelsand so if mom lost track of me
during the day whatever three,four years old so I would get on
(27:57):
my little Hot Wheels and Iwould ride down to the main farm
and I would watch my uncle andmy older cousins, you know, feed
the cows, milk the cows.
But being in the tool shedbecause when you're a farmer
almost everything happens.
Unfortunately, the age of thefamily-owned farm is going the
(28:20):
way of the dinosaur.
But for a family-owned farm youhave to do everything.
You're fabricating, you'rewelding, you're fixing
everything yourself.
Every trip to the implement todo a proper repair is really
expensive and those farmersaren't making a ton of money,
most of them.
So it was just so interestingto see to be in the tool shed.
What's, what's this for, uncle?
(28:41):
No, what's this?
What does this?
Do you know?
And just the imprint that thatmakes, uh, but I would tell my.
I remember telling my mom anddad I want to be a farmer.
You know, when I grow, becauseI was just fascinated with
everything that was involved in,not just whatever raising corn
or having a dairy farm, buteverything that went around, the
(29:01):
whole mechanics of it, thewhole machine that was working
farm.
It left an imprint on me forsure.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
I love every kind of industrial architecture,
industry in general, tools.
What some person might think ofas mechanized and frightening,
I think of as mechanized andfascinating.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Okay, I mean, this just lit me up.
What was it made for?
How was this meant to be used?
And then, how could I?
Where my mind goes is, howcould I misuse it?
I was at there's a new, a newstore in my area called Acme
tool, and so, you know, I spenta lot of time on.
(29:48):
I spend a lot of time at homeDepot.
I buy a lot of my tools, youknow, online if I can't, if
they're more specialized.
But this Acme tool place, uh,they've got like proper
industrial tools for you know,real, Are they down there as
well in Texas?
Yeah, Are they over?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
there, okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
So I should have recorded this.
So I'll go there looking forone thing in particular that I
need, and then I'll just walkaround and Dream about how you
could utilize everything else.
Yes, and I'll ask an employee Iusually look for the older the
employee, the more they know.
You know, if it's a young kid,they're just it's a job and
(30:26):
they've never used these tools.
But so the other day this isthis last week I found this I
mean you can usually tell bylike the size of their wrists
how grizzled their hands are.
I was like, okay, larry's myguy, he's welding, he's this
guy's seen some shit, he's useda lot of these tools, right.
So I was like, hey, what's thisfor?
Just like a little kid, justlike, hey, what's this for?
(30:50):
I mean, I know enough abouttools to have a general idea,
but just asking like, okay, howdoes it work If it's a rotary
tool of some kind?
What's the RPM range?
Like, how does so?
I'm not in most cases obviouslygonna, you know, start, uh,
become a general contractor andstart using all these things for
their intended purpose.
But it's just that like, ooh,what could this be?
(31:11):
You know that fascinate, that,that that thinking of it, as you
know, mechanized andfascinating is just, you know,
that's that's where I feel areal kindred spirit with Arlene,
when I was growing up workingconstruction in high school and
college, just as a grunt on jobsites.
This brought back a memory forme I would.
(31:32):
One of the common things whenyou're building homes is using
expanding foam for installingwindows or really all over the
house just for insulationpurposes, and it's a really fun.
I've got some.
I use it in the studio now aswell, but it's so fun because it
comes out in a liquid right.
It expands, it hardens, and sowhat I would do while I was on
(31:52):
the clock and getting paid to dothe work is I would use the
expanding foam.
Or if somebody else had donesomething on you know, installed
some windows in a certain area,I'd clock at my mind and then
during the coffee break or lunchbreak I would go over with my
utility knife and I would justcarve out little sculptures and
make little installations.
(32:12):
So it was like all right, howquickly can I hydrate and get
some food in me and then playfor the remaining whatever 10 or
15 minutes that I had beforethe foreman said, all right,
gang back to work.
But it's just so fun.
You know, I mean the YouTuberabbit holes that I go down.
I learned way more about what Iwant to try back here from you
know tutorials and YouTubevideos on everything from
(32:34):
manufacturing to fabrication.
To what was I watching theother day?
Yeah, it was a lot of uh uh,auto body part fabrication for,
like, restoring old vehicles,and how they take you know sheet
metal and make you know fendersor any parts that they couldn't
buy even if they wanted to.
Yeah, and it's just the the,the fascination with that and
(32:54):
like again, what?
What?
It's funny, I told larry atacme the other day I said yeah,
he's like what do you do?
I said so, I kind of explainedmy yeah, he's like what do you
do?
I said so, I kind of explainedmy thing and he's like oh, okay,
and I said yeah, so for me, ifI can get like 20 to 30% of the
skill of a proper you knowtrades person, that that's,
that's enough for me If I canjust get it to work and get a
(33:16):
little bit.
Yeah, exactly.
So I was talking to him aboutwelding and he's like well, so I
was kind of picking his brainabout rebar, which I I've.
I got an amazing batch of rebarfrom a demolition site that I
um let myself onto and uh yeah,you sent me pictures.
Yeah, um, and so I was askinghim some questions about that,
cause he had some experiencewith with well, and he goes.
(33:38):
So he's kind of walking methrough it and and he goes.
I mean you got to be careful.
This might not be structurallysound and I was like it's all
right as long as it stands up,I'm good, this is not going to
be.
you know, this is not amotivation situation Correct and
so, again, just getting to that20, 30%.
You know range of skill, butit's it's going back to that
fascination with the um, withthe manufacturing, with the
(34:01):
mechanization, how things aremeant to be made.
That just lit me up.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah, when I was in Marfa for the Marfa Invitational
a while back, our buddy, eric,and I were at the Arbor's print
shop and Robert Arbor was DonaldJudd's printer and he's one of
the most known printers in ourhistory who's printed for
numerous historical figures, andso he had a lot of different
(34:28):
toys and different things inthere, and eric and I, of course
, were geeking out over everylittle possibility we could use
it for in our work.
Could this work for us?
And he had, uh, I think it wasan atomizer or forget what the
name of that gun that we sentyou pictures of, and we were
looking it up on eBay where youcan take two different materials
and it melts it and sprays itout onto things.
(34:49):
So you can.
It's an incredible tool.
And he had shown us how hesprayed it on insulation and
foam and it made it look metaland gold and silver and platinum
and so, but, yeah, any of thosethings you know, eric and I
were going, oh, I bet we could.
Oh, how would that work on?
Ooh, that work on canvas, couldwe?
You know so, but I love that.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
It's on my wishlist for sure.
It is not, uh, an a cheap oraffordable toy.
No, not at all.
I was joking with Eric.
I said you know what if we madelike some balloon animals and
then we sprayed it with thisshiny metal material?
I mean, has anybody done that?
Speaker 1 (35:26):
I mean we could actually sell it just like in
gift shops in the world and justit's funny.
The installation is the wholething, and that's a very big
idea.
I think actually I'm aninstallation artist who makes
objects.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
In that scene there's a guy walking around her work
in a museum who looks exactlylike.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
Nathan Felder, by the way.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Nathan, for you he did?
Speaker 3 (35:56):
He did Right, I had an adult take.
I'm like, is that?
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Is that Nathan Felder ?
Something funny is going tohappen here really quick.
But so this gentleman iswalking around looking at the
work and moving through, as shesays, the installation is the
whole thing and that's a verybig idea.
I think actually I'm aninstallation artist who makes
objects, that whole.
I kept rewinding that back andkind of listening and looking
(36:23):
because they're sculptures,right, and they're not.
It's not a full room with likeone thing that you kind of walk
in and move around right, like atypical installation would be.
But yet the way that she'sviewing how somebody is going to
view her work, she's definingwho she is as an artist.
She's saying, yeah, I sculpt,yes, I use clay, but I'm not a
(36:49):
ceramicist, I'm not just asculptor, and I love that she's
actually defining herself,because I think it's really easy
for us to get wrapped up in howsomebody else defines us as
artists, or how history shoulddefine you, or what this,
whatever, whatever, whatever.
And I'm always encouragingartists that go through my
(37:10):
mentorship program.
No, no, no, let's defineyourself.
Don't just say I'm X.
Let's figure out, like, whatare the things you love, what
are the emotions that are goinginto it, what is inspiring you,
what are elements that arewrapped up within you from
history, and let's figure out away to define yourself, and I
love how she does that.
I just think that's reallyimportant.
I think it's absolutelywonderful when I heard her
(37:32):
define herself, and that playsinto the next quote as well that
we'll talk about in a minute.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
I wanted to reference something from the Freeze
Masters podcast, so she goesinto depth with the interviewer
about her relationship with howthe work is experienced to your
point, about installation,specifically the viewing angle
and the height at which it isseen, and hopefully you all will
go and watch this R21 video aswell, but you'll notice that
(37:58):
pedestals are at very differentheights.
Some of the pieces are on thefloor, Some of them are at eye
level even for me and Ty andeverything in between, and so
she talks about how she wantedto.
When she was trying to figureout how these were going to live
in space and how they're goingto be seen, how she wanted to
(38:19):
have control over that andreally direct the viewing angles
and the experience, and shesaid so I realized I just had to
make my own pedestals, and sothe pedestal is part of the work
itself, and so it was a superwide range of metal and
plexiglass and wood and cementthat she uses for that purpose.
(38:40):
But that really that reallyunlocked something for me and
and I think this, this, this iswhy I mean selfishly, why we do
this tie, these conversationsthat we have, even if we weren't
, you know whatever recording itand putting it out into the
world.
But it's like we can learn somuch about our practice by
listening to other artists talkabout theirs.
Yes, so what that unlocked forme.
(39:02):
So, as I've been moving intosculpture, that's a thought that
I've been really wrestling withis like, okay, how, based on
how, how tall or big they I meansomething's gonna hang on the
wall you put it at whatever theappropriate height would be for
the space.
Pretty simple, Sculpture'sdifferent, you know, and so I'm
(39:24):
just like how are these going tolive and exist in space when
they're seen?
And this just unlocks somethingfor me.
So, again, it just goes to whenwe can listen to and learn from
masters like Arlene who havebeen doing this for over five
decades, that's how we canreally accelerate our own
understanding of what we'retrying to do.
Like that, really, for me, Iwill.
I will think about this and Iwill reference this for years to
come, just because we areactively in the game of studying
(39:49):
and learning from others.
That's the magic, you know, ofreally diving into and we talk
about all the time, whether it's, you know, reading books,
listening to interviews.
I mean we're we're superfortunate to live in an age
where videos like this exist.
I mean, imagine if YouTube andvideo, whatever formats like
this, had existed for the last200 years or 2000 years.
(40:13):
I mean, how amazing would it beto be able to see and hear the
greats that we can only reallystudy the work and maybe some of
their writings from years ago.
It's such a tremendousadvantage that we have in the
modern era, so take advantage ofit.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Well, we learned last week or last episode.
Roberta Smith said once thework leaves your studio, it's no
longer yours, right, and wetalk about that at length.
But there are certain things wecan control as artists.
We can control the work, whatwe're making, how we're making
it, but we can also control howthat works displayed.
(40:52):
Yeah, and you should controlthat.
If you're a sculptor, you haveeven more emphasis on how your
work is displayed than a painter, right, unless you're painting
something that's supposed to beon the ceiling or on the floor
or whatever.
But for a sculptor, right, foran installation artist, you have
to control the setting.
(41:12):
Like that's part of the piece,that's part of it.
So I've talked to you aboutthis, I've talked to Allison
about this, our friend Eric,other artists in my program who
sculpt and do things like youneed to make sure you have
complete control over how it'slit, how it's featured.
Is it hanging from the ceiling,is it on the floor, is it up
against the walls and in thecorners and middle of the room?
(41:32):
You need to control thosethings because once it's out and
there, you can't control howthe viewers thinks, what they
think about it, how they view it, all those things, but you need
to have it in its right naturalsetting and how you intended
that work to be shown, and Ithink that's what she did.
That's the beauty of thepedestals is she knew there's
(41:53):
still another step missing here.
For me, I need to create thepedestals because I want my work
to be viewed as an installation, not as a sculpture, on a 24 by
24, four foot pedestal right.
No, it's all different Low,high, wide, big, all those
things and I think that's shefigured it out and said no, no,
no, the essence of my work isn'tjust the work, but it's how
(42:16):
it's displayed as well.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
I want to make something more than an idea.
I don't want anybody to be ableto describe the pieces too
easily.
I want to make things that aremore open-ended than that.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
That's the big challenge.
That is the big challenge, likethat's what keeps me up at
night.
That, right there, I do, I wantto make something that's more
than just the idea.
That, right there, I do, I wantto make something that's more
than just the idea.
I want to make something thatyou can't just answer right away
.
You can't have like a oh that'sit, walk away.
(42:53):
Right, I want it to beopen-ended.
I want somebody to walk awayand then have to come back.
I want discovery, I want thingsin there.
You know, and as a painter,that's that's a.
That's a big, big challenge, Ithink.
(43:13):
I personally believe thatsculptors, three-dimensional
artists, have a lot easier wayof doing that than painters.
Because it is three-dimensional, it can be viewed in multiple
things.
A person can move around it andsee from four, five, six
different angles and continue tosearch and fight, rather than
just a two-dimensional plane,which is why I still love to
sculpt.
(43:34):
But to me, that just bringssuch an even greater challenge
of how do I find things inmaterial, not just how it looks
in the finished product, but byadding material and adding
texture, and adding layers anddifferent types of mediums and
things, non-traditional elements, into it in order to allow
(43:57):
those moments to happen.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Yeah, I'm always saying yes to new situations.
If I keep creating a closedsystem, then I'm not
uncomfortable enough to pushsome boundary.
Here we go.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
I mean, that's it so much, goodness.
Oh, you know the the.
The important thing about thatto me is is what we want to
avoid in order to get what wewant.
We want to avoid a closedsystem.
We want to avoid somethingwhere it's.
This is what it is, this is howit goes, and we're staying on
(44:38):
the interstate, the well-wornpath, and so what we want is to
continue to keep pushingboundaries right.
So, acknowledging what we don'twant, acknowledging what the
potential obstacles to what wewant might be, in this case,
falling into a certain I don'twant to say groove, but the trap
(44:58):
of replicating a slightlydifferent version of what we've
done, you know, indefinitely.
That, to me, is that's whywe're doing this, that's what
gets me fired up, that's whatgets you know, seeking that
(45:21):
discomfort, something we'vetalked about many times, you
know before.
But we have to seek thatdiscomfort in order to push
those boundaries.
It's necessary.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
I hate comfort.
I really do personally, I justdon't like it.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
That's the thing, though you don't hate it.
We all.
We all seek comfort.
I mean, that's not.
That's not.
I'm going to one of the raremoments where you and I are
going to disagree.
You love comfort, we all Let melay it out for you.
We're wired for it.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
I never stayed at one job too long Okay, because the
second and even in in businessesthat I started, or even in
places I've gone and helpedbuild the second, I got
comfortable.
I was out.
The challenge didn't existanymore.
I've lived plenty of places allover the world, constantly
moved, constantly gone to places, new things.
(46:13):
Even as a kid I even hadmentors who were like I'm really
worried about you.
I remember the first teacher whowas one of my heroes growing up
, in fourth grade it was mydad's best friend as well.
This was on Mr Davis' deathbedbecause he had cancer.
It was my first experience withcancer and death as a child.
But fourth grade actually Ithink it was seventh grade I was
(46:43):
sitting on his bed at his house.
I was in the living room and Iwas just kind of the last chance
ever talking with him.
You know, time was coming and Iwas sitting with Mr Davis and
he said you know, ty, I'm reallyworried about you.
And I was like why?
And he's like because you haveso many things you like and so
(47:04):
many avenues you want to chaseand you're always fighting
comfort that I'm worried, you'renever going to find something.
This is like seventh grade,right and he was saying you're
very good at a lot of differentthings that you have a passion
for, but find something andreally stick with it and really
go for it.
That's lasted with me to thisday, mr Davis saying that on his
(47:27):
deathbed like justa monumentalmoment in my life.
I still talk to his daughter,nikki we're the same age pretty
regularly and she's followed myart all these years, but I have
my whole life.
I've found like when thingsstart to get comfortable, I get
very uncomfortable and I thinkit's because I have this pursuit
(47:48):
of growth that I've always hadkind of burned in me, this
pursuit of discovery and newthings, and so anytime I feel
stagnant and that can be fromanything, that could be from my
own personal faith, that can befrom my own personal like
journeys, all these differentthings If I start to get
comfortable, I don't want to bein a place of diluted personal
(48:11):
growth where I get stagnant, mythoughts get stagnant, what I'm
learning becomes stagnantBecause all of a sudden I'm in
that comfortable zone and I feellike I'm going to die, like I
really have, I don't knowwhatever that is within me and
my character, personality.
I feel like that's death for me, and so I think that's also for
(48:33):
my art, kind of a superpowerthat anytime I start to feel
comfortable, I switch.
Yeah, all of a sudden I go.
I've been doing this too long.
I'm starting to kind of getinto a zone of comfort here.
It's time to just switch.
You know, and I there's been adetriment to that at times
because I've I when I go backand I was cataloging all my work
(48:55):
, I was like I sold almost everysingle piece in that entire
collection.
Why didn't I keep making it foranother six months, right, and
make more money off what wasworking?
Well, it's because I got tothat point where that comfort
started to kind of come in and Iwent no, no, no, no, it's time
to grow complete cutoff and justmove on.
So, um, but I think that's.
(49:16):
But because of that I'm pushingthe boundary, some boundary
Don't know what that is, but I'mpushing that boundary because I
don't want that boundary tocreep up on me.
I want to keep chasing it.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (49:29):
It does, yeah, and I mean you're more of an expert on
you than I am, so I'm not goingto tell you what's true for you
.
I was referencing, more broadlyspeaking, just the human nature
what's baked into our DNA from,just from a survival standpoint,
you know, you think aboutMaslow's hierarchy of needs.
I mean, a lot of basic thingsneed to be in place.
(49:49):
You know our physiologicalneeds, you know safety needs, et
cetera, before we get to thepinnacle of self-actualization,
right?
So there's a lot to be said forjust acknowledging that, as
humans, we are oriented towardssafety.
And what I'm hearing from whatyou're saying is that you have
(50:12):
prioritized the pursuit ofgrowth, would argue as a, as a
preeminent expert on you, Iwould.
I would tell you that becauseyou've prioritized what
discomfort does for you, it'smore natural for you to get out
(50:33):
of comfort, right, or to toalmost be put off by it, because
you're so consumed and excitedabout what discomfort does.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
Yeah, Well, it's kind of like I think it's Carl Jung
who said if you don't act, thenyou're stuck in this hell, Right
.
So it's like that.
If you're not constantly likepushing and actually doing
something, then you're stuck inthat.
And I've always kind of viewedthat as like and maybe comfort's
not the right word I don't wantto not be growing.
Yeah, Yep, I don't want to not.
(51:06):
I was telling Mandy this theother day we were sitting and
talking about it because I havea five-week residency coming up
and it's like I don't want tostop traveling.
And as I get older, right,those things become less and
less.
And all my artists that I loveand I'm reading, they're
constantly traveling, they'reconstantly experiencing new
cultures.
They're even the ones whocouldn't afford it or forcing
(51:28):
their way to go be in anotherculture and do things.
Right.
Jack Whitten spent every summerin Greece sculpting and doing
ceramics and that part of thatculture, just like, captivated
him and help, you know, it helpshis work grow and move and
change.
And so, you know, I kind of fallinto that and it's not easy.
It's easy to do that today.
You can hop on a plane and goanywhere you want, but
(51:48):
financially it's not as easy todo that today either.
So you know, you get kind ofcaught in that.
I got to figure out oh, I needto go to Houston, when do I need
to go?
I need to go do something likethat extrovert in me which we'll
talk about this probably nextweek, when you're here at my
house at my studio and we recorda few episodes.
But that, uh, that forcedintrovert in me, the real me,
(52:10):
the extrovert house, is fightingthat all the time, constantly
fighting and pushing me to go.
You need to go, you need to go.
But then it's like, ah, but Ineed to work 10 hours today, I
need to get all this work donein the studio.
Speaker 3 (52:23):
There's constant battle which is going to be a
good conversation next week.
I'm excited to have it becausewe are on opposite end of that
spectrum for sure.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
You know, what you're saying reminds me of a book
that I'm just wrapping up rightnow.
I think I might've referencedit a few pods ago the Explorer's
Gene by Alex Hutchinson.
Yeah, I'm going to do a littlesolo episode on it because there
are a lot of really interestingparallels into art and our
practices as artists.
But I'm going to share a quotefrom that Exploration is the
anti-habit, the antidote to adiminished palette of life
(52:50):
choices.
We're wired to seek out theunknown, to embrace the
challenges we find there and tofind meaning in the pursuit.
So I will co-sign your reframein terms of, of, of, because you
needed me to do that to moveabout your day.
But uh, you know, it's that'swhat.
(53:12):
It is right, it's the, it's thechallenges that we're seeking
out, finding meaning in thepursuit of possibility, of what
could be, what could.
That's, that's what it's about.
Yep, thanks for joining us.
That concludes today's episode,does it no, or?
Speaker 2 (53:28):
doesn't it, it does, it does hey, all right, hey,
that's it thanks for joining usfor today's episode of just make
our podcast.
Speaker 3 (53:37):
You can find us on youtube.
Definitely go watch this Art21video.
It's phenomenal, and I wouldalso recommend checking out that
Freeze Masters podcast as well.
That's on all the podcastplaces that you would find.
And join us next time forwhatever's next.
Actually, we know what's goingto be next.
I'm coming to you in just a fewdays.
(53:58):
We're going to record a coupleof episodes live in that very
studio, so I'm excited for that,yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
So go be uncomfortable in your studio
today.
Here we go, all right.
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