March 13, 2025 • 43 mins
This episode is a replay from Dec 28th 2023. Just Make Art will be back with a brand new episode on March 20th.
What happens when an artist truly understands their medium? For Robert Rauschenberg, that's precisely when it was time to stop and move on. His philosophy—"I usually work in a direction until I know how to do it. Then I stop. At the time I am bored, or understand, and I use those words interchangeably"—serves as the launching point for a deep dive into artistic evolution and the creative mindset.
Ty Nathan Clark and Nathan Terborg unpack Rauschenberg's approach to creativity, exploring how his constant medium-shifting—from painting to sculpture, printmaking to performance—wasn't merely restlessness but a deliberate artistic strategy. They examine his famous "combines" that incorporated everyday objects and trash, born initially from economic necessity but evolving into a revolutionary artistic approach that bridged the gap between art and life.
The conversation takes fascinating turns through the concept of the "beginner's mind," the documentation of creative processes, and the tension between commercial success and artistic growth. Particularly compelling is their discussion about creating opportunities in today's art landscape—from organizing house shows to leveraging digital platforms—that echoes Rauschenberg's resourceful spirit.
Whether you're a working artist feeling stagnant in your current practice, or someone curious about the artistic mindset, this episode offers both philosophical insights and practical takeaways about embracing boredom as a creative signal, following your curiosity, and maintaining that crucial sense of wonder throughout your creative journey. Ready to transform your approach to making art? Listen now and discover why sometimes understanding something completely is your cue to move on to the next exciting possibility.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of
Just Make Art, a conversationabout making art and the
artist's journey, with myself,ty Nathan-Clark, from Waco,
texas, and my buddy, nathanTurborg, from Minneapolis,
minnesota.
We're just two artists tryingto navigate the art world, just
like you, and I am pretty pumpedup about the artists we're
(00:22):
going to talk about today, sosomebody that's one of my heroes
it's going to be a good one.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We're going to talk about a quote by the one and
only Robert Rauschenberg.
You know, one of these dayswe'll probably have a quote.
It's going to be a recurringtheme, like hey, really excited
to talk about this, but one ofthese days we'll have a quote.
It's like, eh, just not buildit up at all.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Like, I'm kind of so-so on this one, but we'll
give it our best shot.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
All right.
So here's the quote we're goingto discuss today.
I usually work in a directionuntil I know how to do it.
Then I stop.
At the time I am bored, orunderstand, and I use those
words interchangeably.
Another appetite has formed.
A lot of people try to think upideas.
I'm not one.
I'd rather accept theirresistible possibilities of
(01:07):
what I can't ignore.
So lots to unpack here.
Why don't you give us our firstpass?
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yeah, and you know that quote makes a lot of sense.
If you're a Rauschenberg fan, ifyou followed his career, you
know that he's definitely a guywhose appetite is constantly
changing from one form, onemedium to another.
You know, from painting tosculpture, to prints,
photography, performance, dancewhich a lot of people don't
(01:36):
really know, his performance anddance stuff that spanned over,
you know, 60 years, you know,and he really jumped onto the
scene during the Ab-X movementbut is kind of known as a
neo-Dadaist, as a pop artistWorked in what a lot of people
call combines, which are likeassemblage art, big collages,
(01:59):
three-dimensional stuff, stuff,black Mountain College in North
Carolina, working under JosephAlbers, to collaborators with
John Cage the composer, to hisdear friend Cy Twombly, and then
, of course, just the dialoguethat he and Jasper Johns really
(02:20):
shaped in their time togetherand their friendship is probably
what most artists reallyrecognize is that relationship
with he and Jasper Johns and theway that they really influenced
each other and each other'sstudios and sharing studios and
back and forth, and just thatrelationship of a true artist,
peer right, that is soinfluential.
(02:42):
In all you do, you run the ideasby and they critique your work.
You're in this constantdialogue on how to grow and how
to change and how to develop,and you know, both of those guys
were in that realm of you know,I'm not going to be thinking up
ideas, I'm just going to work,work, work, work, work.
And when I can't ignoresomething, I'm just going to
(03:05):
dive into it full, full force,right, yeah, yeah, it's
interesting.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
I think, um, I, I definitely in learning more
about uh Rauschenberg and Iwatched a couple of
documentaries and and gobble upas many interviews on on YouTube
as I could find but Idefinitely, uh, you know, I feel
a kinship with his philosophyand just approach to the art
making process.
And you know I feel a kinshipwith his philosophy and just
approach to the art makingprocess and you know almost
everything that I that I've reador heard him say.
It's like oh, yeah, you know,and he speaks you mentioned this
(03:30):
when we were, when we werepreparing but you know, he
speaks so eloquently and and andpoetically.
It's there's so many just gems.
You know that that, uh, thatwe've got to mine, so, um, we'll
probably, we'll probably sharea couple more of those as we go
through here today.
But, yeah, it's interesting.
I mean just in kind of breakingthis one down.
(03:50):
There's so much just in thisone quote.
But I think, you know, justgoing in kind of chronological
order, I think that at the timeI'm bored, or understand, and
using those two wordsinterchangeably.
You know, that's something forme that like immediately, just,
you know, yes, you know, I getthat, you know completely.
Like you know, understanding,you know, is boring, or when you
(04:14):
get to a certain point, and assomebody who's, you know, very
easily bored and very easilydistracted, you know, it seems
to me that, like you said,looking at his body of work over
his career and all thedifferent, you know, mediums
that he expressed himself, Imean that's pretty evident, you
know, in his approach to work.
But I think about, like, I'mcurious to hear your thoughts on
(04:37):
this too, but I personallydon't have any interest in
mastery, you know, and it seemsas though he really didn't
either.
If you think about that whole,um, you know, zen, buddhist, uh,
concept of, like, having thebeginner's mind, you know, um,
in fact, there's a quote thatcame to mind as I was thinking
about our conversation today.
I wanted to share, and this isfrom uh, uh, I'm going to I'm
(04:59):
going to mispronounce itprobably, but Shinryo Suzuki in
the beginner's mind mind, thereare many possibilities.
In the expert's mind there arefew.
I'm sure you've heard thatbefore too, but you know, you
think about rauchenberg and youknow he certainly uh, seems to
have had that beginner's mindapproach.
You know, the whole way throughmeaning that, or my
interpretation being um, youknow, once he, once he starts to
(05:21):
understand something, he getsbored you isn't interested in
pursuing.
You know, expert level at anyone thing, it's, it's onto the
next.
It's continuing to sort offoster that, that, um, you know,
fresh eyes and beginner's mindapproach to this process.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Sometimes we create things out of necessity, right?
And so it's like that.
That beginner's mind isnothing's off limits, right?
The, the person who leaves thebeginner and starts to become
more advanced, kind of focusesmore in on, like what you said,
mastery, and oh, okay, I got touse the best oil paints now, and
so I don't go, I don't inventthings because I don't have
(06:00):
necessity, right?
I don't have this forced thingupon me that I have to use
coffee this week because Icannot afford to go out and buy
brown or burnt sienna to use inmy painting.
So, it's like, and I waswatching another interview with
with Rauschenberg late lastnight and he talked about you
(06:21):
know.
The question was you know, whydid you use so many random
things in your work?
And he said well, you know,economy is why I did it.
You know, I started doing thesethings because I didn't have
the money.
So I lost my car.
You know.
He says in this interview withLeo Castelli, his art dealer and
friend, as he says, I lost mycar and so I had a blanket that
(06:47):
was over my car that kept theradiator warm in the winter when
it was cold, and so I used thatblanket to paint on, you know,
and I think Leo said that's mine, I have that, you know.
And he said oh yeah, you dohave that, that is yours, you
know, and so, but it's likenecessities, like I used a towel
to paint on and create on.
Have you ever tried to use atowel?
It's hard.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
But it also takes away the board, the mattress,
right from that sameconversation.
The mattress, yeah, yeah,exactly what was the concept?
It's what I had around, right?
What?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
I had around Necessity being the mother of
invention Yep.
Economy is why I started, and Ithink those conversations give
you permission to use whateverthe heck you want when you're
working Right.
And I do that, like, I run outof certain things and I go okay,
how in the world can I conveythis message?
Um, okay, let's use cardboard.
Let's, what do I have in thestudio around me that I could
(07:34):
bring into this piece and makesense of it?
And that helps me not get toobored as well.
Right, because I've gone backand looked at old series of work
and gone.
Man, I really liked thedirection I was going there.
Why am I not doing that anymore?
And I go oh well, cause it wasdone.
Right, I got bored.
Right.
So that same part where he saysI work in a direction until I
(07:57):
know how to do it.
Yeah, then I stop.
If you keep working in thedirection you know how to do,
you're never going to grow andyour work is just going to be
boring.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Well, there's so much excitement that comes from.
You know, as a, I mean I I loveworking with anything.
I can pretty much get my handson, but there's so much
excitement that comes from justa new material and not knowing
how it's going to behave, right,just being like we'll see how
this goes, we'll see what typeof marks this makes and how, you
know, everything interacts.
You know that was another quoteof his I wanted to bring up so
(08:25):
perfect introduction to that.
But you know he said I mostlywork in trash, and this is from
that same interview, by the way.
We'll link it in thedescription.
But fantastic interview, that'son YouTube here.
But I mostly work in trash and Ilove this.
The idea of a beautiful pieceof silk or beautiful color
consumed with its own vanitydidn't interest me, isn't that
(08:49):
great?
Like you know, this the, theidea that this material a
beautiful piece of silk or abeautiful color, consumed with
its own vanity, in other words,I mean the way I read that is
like you know something that'salready inherently beautiful,
just not interesting.
So just that whole idea ofworking with you know so many
different, uh, differentmaterials and and and trash is,
(09:10):
uh, is really interesting to me.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Well, and you know, if you've been to a museum,
especially in America, you'vecome across a Rauschenberg piece
, whether you realize it or not,right, you've either come
across a collage, um, large orsmall, or you've come across one
of his combines, one of hisassemblage pieces.
And as you're saying that, youknow, I think about the quote
where he says you know, paintingrelates to both art and life,
(09:34):
either can be made.
But I act in the gap betweenthe two.
And that when I see his work, Ithink that because some of my
favorite pieces, you know, theymay have a ladder that's
attached to the, to the combine,or a chair and then a towel,
and then color and things, andit's almost as if he was in his
room and he was looking aroundor, you know, walked out the
(09:56):
door to the trash can and sawthis ladder.
So it's like he's combining thisgap of life, what exists,
what's out there, what istangible, but then kind of his
life as he's piecing together,you know, his philosophy behind
his work and he's a very he's aprocessor, right, he's not a
(10:29):
fast talker, not a quick.
He doesn't relay informationright away.
You know there's plenty ofmoments in interviews where he
disappears for a minute, yeah,and you're like it's a little
awkward.
Where's he going?
Right, and sometimes theinterviewer doesn't realize it
and starts to talk, and then,all of a sudden, rauschenberg
comes in with a full force.
You know like he catches hismoment and I think, when I see
(10:50):
his work, I feel that, yeah,that there's this deep
philosophy of processing eachthing that he's doing, each
piece that he puts on.
There is this slow, thought outprocess of that combination of
life and art.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that you remind me
of that, um, the interview umwith Charlie Rose.
That's actually quite.
I don't know if you watch thatone, but it's, it's pretty
awkward.
You know, and and and CharlieRose, a masterful interviewer
who's interviewed, you know,thousands of people from all,
all walks of life andbackgrounds, but he never quite
got the pacing down because,right as he was about to, as
(11:27):
Rauschenberg was about to sortof, you know, bring it home, or,
or, you know, catch that nextwave, as, as put it like, um,
charlie Rhodes is just trying to, you know, pull out.
You know, kind of the the nextthing, but that definitely I
liked that.
You said that.
That definitely does speak tothe sort of intentionality
around you know, his, uh, hisideas, and that's kind of the
next part.
Um, as we kind of work throughthis chronologically, I guess,
(11:47):
is just, I love the whole ideaof appetite and I wanted to talk
about that a little bit.
Like you know, another appetitehas formed.
So this is something where, um,you know the uh as a, as a
recovering addict myself, andknowing you know his, his
struggles with alcohol and hisstruggles to to get um to get
sober later in life.
I think there's something aboutthat appetite for more that
(12:08):
where you happen to have thatparticular background, you know
or not, but I think that'ssomething that a lot of artists
share.
We can call it you know, sortof that insatiable curiosity you
know of, oh, I wonder, you knowwhat if, um, what if this you
know?
And I think that when you'reopen and when you're curious,
which I think is probably one ofthe most common characteristics
that you know creatives of alltypes you know probably have, is
(12:30):
just that, that, that curiosity.
But I think when you're open tothat extent um, the way he
certainly was, you know theappetite, you know forms on its
own right.
It's not something that he hasto conjure up.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yep Well, and he says you make art, you are art, you
live art, you do art, you aredoing what no one can stop you
doing Art is your life.
If you are an artist and youmake art and you're making a lot
of it, that appetite continuesto grow and grow and grow the
more that you make it.
Because the more you make it,the more you go look at it.
(13:03):
Right, the more you go look atit, the more you start to read
about it and then, right, yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I study like crazy and Iwork like crazy, but for me that
(13:25):
appetite is.
I know why Rauschenberg had sucha wide range of mediums,
because when you're creating,you start thinking, well, what
could it be in this element?
How can I take it to thiselement?
How can I take this to thiselement?
I don't know if I believe thathe's not the person who tries to
(13:46):
think up ideas that he says.
A lot of people try to think upideas, and I'm not one man.
If you're an artist, you'reideating like crazy.
That new modern word that isn'treally in the dictionary, you
know ideation, it's become aword.
You're ideating all the time.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
It's one of my strength finders, by the way, so
thanks for bringing that up.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Appreciate it, and so it's like for me now that I'm
trying to go morethree-dimensional.
I started out in sculpture andceramics, I moved into painting
and have just been painting fora long time, but then have been
doing sculpture here and there,not a lot but small bodies of
sculptures and things.
But the more I paint, the moreI'm saying how do I get my work
(14:24):
more into the room than justflat on the wall?
Yeah, right.
So thinking through, how can Ido that with canvas?
Can I fold it?
Can I crumple it Right, can Ibring it off the painting more?
Okay, now, how do I get it intothe floor?
How do I have these things I'mworking on, these ideas I have
and these stories I'm telling?
How do I'm working on theseideas I have in these stories
(14:53):
I'm telling, how do I get theminto more space?
Right, so I can totally seeRauschenberg, right, wanting to
move into performance and dance,wanting to move into, you know,
sculpture and all you know allthese ideas and all these things
that he has in his artistmakeup.
How can I now bring them evenmore into the audience's senses
than just flat on a wall?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Totally does, yeah, and thinking about too, how you
know I mean a career of, of, ofhis length and magnitude.
He tried a lot of differentthings, you know.
A lot of them worked a lot ofthem.
A lot of them maybe didn'twrite like his photography.
That he did later in his careerwas something he clearly had a
passion for and loved, you know,with all the travels that he
did around, the sort ofhumanitarian efforts that he was
, that he was engaged in.
But everything leads to the nextthing, right, and I think
(15:30):
that's that's.
That's what's interesting isthat you know, maybe all of the
um, whatever let's just use anexample those, those, those
stills may not have been elitethat he ever set out to be great
at at that, but that then ledto the next thing, or was
informed by everything you know,sort of that came before it.
I'm going to disagree with youon something.
I actually believe him when hesays that he doesn't try to
(15:52):
think up ideas, like I believethat somebody like that, the
ideas just sort of come.
You know what I mean.
Like sure, their ideas arepresent, right.
So we're kind of, we're kind of, you know, splitting hairs a
little bit, but I think thatthere's a difference between.
When I read that sentence, alot of people try to think of
ideas.
I'm not one.
I think of him sort ofreferring to somebody who's like
(16:12):
all right, pen and a pad Let metry to figure this out and sort
of engineer.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Sure Conjure, exactly yeah, as opposed to just being
open.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
And something else he talks about is how he doesn't
really know what he's going todo.
You know before, but he'sdisciplined to to continue to
work Right A reoccurring themeof a lot of the quotes and
things that we discuss here.
But anyway, I believe him.
I believe him when he says thatthey just sort of come, as
opposed to having to generatethem, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Well, and maybe that's the wording to, a lot of
people try to think up ideas.
Maybe it's a lot of people tryto conjure and invent ideas,
right, right Cause I definitely.
I mean, I know my ideas arelisted in, you know, the the 50
journals that I'm constantlywriting down every idea I have.
So I don't forget stuff.
Because I forget stuff, right,like stories, books finished my
(17:06):
first novel this year, you know.
So it's like I've got all thesethings I want to do and I think
, too, like I want to encourageall the artists out there
listening, like don't let yourideas hold you back.
Right, because I know there areplenty of painters who want to
sculpt, plenty of sculptors whowant to paint, plenty of artists
who are like I've got an ideafor a film, short, right, I've
got an idea I'd love to write,I'd love to.
(17:28):
It's like no, don't not do that.
Like, find ways to create asmuch as you can create right in
your time that you have here onthis earth.
You know, and life is short,like we know that.
You know that very well justfrom stories in your life.
Life is short and that's, youknow, it's one of the reasons
why you decided I got to makethis jump and be a full-time
(17:51):
artist and make art in the timethat I have.
Don't let those things hold youback.
Right, like I love you know, hesays.
I'd rather accept theirresistible possibilities of
what I can't ignore.
Yeah, if those ideas are justcrushing your head and you
cannot ignore them, figure out away to make it.
Figure out a way to do it.
(18:12):
And today we have tools to dojust about anything.
You want to make music, youwant to make soundscapes, you
want to make a short?
You could use your phone to doall those things.
It's so much easier today thanin 1950, where it's a little
more difficult to have thisbroad range of things that
you're creating.
Um, I say, find a way to go forit.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
It's, there's never been a better time to be a
generalist as opposed to aspecialist.
You know, let's say I don'tknow if we've talked about this
before.
It probably be a good quote todiscuss at some point.
But there's a really, reallygreat book that I got a lot from
as I was considering, you know,transitioning, but it's a book
called A Range, by David EpsteinI think is the name of the
author.
But anyway, the basic premiseis that it's the generalist who
(18:58):
has a taste or a broad range ofexperiences and backgrounds that
can sort of find theintersection, you know, and pick
out some of those you knownovel uses for you know concepts
that make a ton of sense inother spaces, and so you think
about from a creative standpoint, from an artistic standpoint.
(19:19):
It just kind of makes sensethat the more things you try,
even if you're not great at thatthing like I love videography,
I love photography, I may or maynot ever try to do anything you
know that I put out in theworld, apart from just, you know
, filming myself, making art andtaking pictures, you know, but
that's like, just as an example,my understanding of my basic
(19:39):
understanding of lighting, youknow, from a, from a film or,
you know, photography standpoint, you know, certainly informs my
.
The way that I, you know, uselight, everything you know, one
hand washes the other,everything leads to the, to the
next thing, you know, and Ithink that, um, that's a really
um, yeah, that last part thatyou talked about, you know, just
the, I'd rather accept theirresistible possibilities of
(20:00):
what I can't ignore.
So I don't know for sure, Imean the fact that he was, you
know, an addict and struggledwith that.
That was, that's documented.
I don't know for sure if he'salso ADD or ADHD, as I identify,
but that's a very like ADD sortof thing to say.
Right, the irresistiblepossibilities, you know, and
(20:21):
that's I mean personally again,like why, why I feel a spirit to
so much, so many of hisphilosophies and ways of
thinking, is they areirresistible.
I think that's probably acharacteristic, the more I've
had a chance to get to know andlearn about other artists.
That seems to be another commonthread that not everybody
(20:42):
shares.
Common thread that noteverybody shares, but but
certainly just, uh, anexcitement of, of the mundane,
or the easily, easilydistractibility of, oh, I wonder
, wonder about this, or I wonderabout that, that he certainly
had.
There's a quote that that's um,uh, another one of his that I
wanted to share, kind of alongthis same vein.
But uh, he said, I really feelsorry for people who think
things like soap dishes ormirrors or Coke bottles are ugly
(21:04):
because they're surrounded by.
Things like soap dishes ormirrors or coke bottles are ugly
because they're surrounded bythings like that all day long
and it must make them miserableand I think that's just a
fantastic quote.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yeah, it's great, you know it's like.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, it's like but kind of back to that whole um,
you know, idea of notnecessarily wanting to work with
materials that already had a,you know, were already beautiful
inherently, you know,necessarily, or considered, you
know, to fill in or, you know,meet the standard definition of
beauty.
You know, but that's just oneof those things.
You know that when you'rewilling to, you know, chase your
(21:38):
curiosity and try different, Imean, that's one of the things,
you know.
I shared this with you theother day.
But you know how we got to knoweach other and originally meet
with me.
You know how, how we got toknow each other and originally
meet with me.
You know, being in yourmentorship program, that was one
of the biggest things thatattracted me and I was like I
want to apply, you know, I wantto, I want to learn from this
guy, because I looked at yourbody of work and I looked at the
diversity of materials andmediums and different things
(21:59):
that you had worked and I said,okay, this is somebody who you
know can, definitely who I canlearn a lot from, because I, you
know, I'm still I'm stillfiguring things out, you know,
but one thing I know for sure isthat I'm never going to be, you
know, the artist that thatfinds one thing and just, you
know, does that one and doesthat one thing.
You know indefinitely, nodisrespect to people that that
(22:20):
have found their saying and andmine, that you know indefinitely
, but that's I know for sure.
That's not going to, you know,be me.
So, um, anyway, I just I lovehearing Rauschenberg talk about
just the irresistiblepossibilities of what I can't
ignore, because to me that's areally empowering thing to
realize.
Oh okay, what was back to theADD thing, what was a, uh, a
(22:42):
limitation to me, you know,certainly in other areas of life
, is actually a tremendousstrength that can be leveraged,
you know, especially in thiscreative space.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Sure, going back to you just talking about, you know
, my bodies of work and things,and just from a studio
perspective, I really identifywith what Robert Ruschenberg
says in that first part ofworking in the direction until I
know how to do it and then Istop part of working in the
direction until I know how to doit and then I stop when I.
When I first heard him say that,you know I really it hit home
(23:10):
for me because I don't know howI got to that point.
Maybe because I just spent somuch time when I really went
full time in the studio to studyand listening and watching and
learning from, as I call them,my dead peers from the past.
And you know I've really madethat a part of my practice.
It just became part of Iwouldn't say I made it, it
(23:30):
became part of it.
I will jump in on a directionand I will go full force and
make 20, 30 paintings, you know,in that direction, each one
hopefully growing after the next, and you know a lot of them.
Failures, some of themsuccesses very few, great, very
few.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Hopefully some good work there.
Those are all the places wherewe agree with something.
No, that's perfect.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
You know that's the support we need from our, from
our artist peers.
But all of a sudden, I get tothis point where, like Bobby
says he's bored or understandsit, I either go you know what
time for the next thing I'm, I'mover this or, oh my gosh, I
understand where I'm going andI'm not there yet.
So it's got to switch, it's gotto, it's got to change and now
develop this way, even though itdidn't work that way.
(24:18):
And so it's like you know,understanding using those
interchangeably right Boreddoesn't mean it's not working
right.
You know what I mean.
Board means I've used up allthat I have to give within this,
and it's taking me to thisplace now, and now I'm able to
go with this place and keeprolling.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
so you kind of mentioned it, but I think it'd
be valuable for um for you to totalk a little bit more about
how does one keep oneself fromgetting from feeling like they
have to stay in a certain youknow lane, right, because maybe
it comes more naturally to someyou know, than than others, but
there is sort of a certain youknow, uh, there are some
(24:59):
external pressures to you know,to get figure out your thing and
then, and then just do thatthing Right.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
For most of us, this is the most exciting time to be
an artist, you know, in thatemerging or beginning stages,
because you don't have thosepressures.
Um, you have your own personalon unneeded pressures of
performing for Instagram orperforming for social media or
what you think is watching youin the invisible shadows in your
(25:31):
studio or wherever you work.
If you find success in the artworld and by success I don't
mean being rich, I mean byhaving work that is being seen
and shown in galleries andthings like that and selling
here and there there's going tobe a pressure that's going to
settle in to perform or tocontinue to create that thing
(25:53):
which is selling.
Right, you sell three paintingsthat have similar feels.
A lot of artists get then stuckin the trap and I'm not saying
that this is wrong.
If an artist decides oh, I'mgoing to continue to do this
because I can make money,because, gosh, we're in this
because we love it, but we alsoneed to make money doing it.
We can't just flail at the windand not make any money with our
(26:15):
work.
So there is that pressure thatwill come of I need to continue
to create this, to sell work,and you can fall in a major trap
of just doing that and thengetting stuck there and not
leaving it.
And I have plenty of artists,friends, who get to that point
and are very unhappy with lifeand studio time because they're
(26:37):
performing and they're having tocreate what's selling rather
than creating their new ideasand the new experiments and
really growing beyond where theywere.
And a lot of them get bored withit.
I mean, imagine you know thetimes when you're working on
something and you're bored.
Imagine if that was your nineto five every day, right For a
(26:59):
year, creating work that you'rebored with.
I mean, we've lost so manyartists to suicide in the past
because that becomes adebilitating mental pressure on
top of the things that weexperience as artists as well in
our solitude.
So, yeah, be be really carefulIf I think.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I mean it's interesting too.
I mean, I think you know, oneof the things that that I think
is so inspiring about just theopportunity to, to be, uh, an
artist is is the um, thelifespan of, I mean, apart from
you know, I mean obviouslylifestyle choices, you know,
(27:42):
play into that, but you see somany artists that that um, that
continue working I mean mostright until until they die, and
that's not the kind of thing Imean.
If you think about a morewhatever nine to five or
traditional, you know career orjob path, you know we're
sprinting for that finish lineLike man.
As soon as I have 66 and a halfor whatever, whatever the
number, as soon as I can getthat pension, that retirement,
(28:04):
as soon as I don't have to dothis crap that I don't love
doing on a daily basis, I'm done.
You know art should never bethat way and of course there's
going to be mundane aspects ofthe day-to-day like I freaking
hate.
You know cleaning up andorganizing and all of the stuff
around.
You know emails and whatever,all the stuff that goes along
with just, you know, being aprofessional at whatever you're,
(28:27):
whatever you're trying to do,um, but the work itself, you
know, should, for the most part,really energize you.
You know, and I think it'sevident in Rauschenberg's work
that you know, he was excited tokeep creating, you know, as, as
long as he lived, when it's.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
You know, it's funny to me to always think back to
going.
Yeah, but he had Jasper Johnsinside Twombly in his studio
every day.
Right and so.
But you're like, but wait, notmany people knew who they were
at that point.
Maybe they, you know, were inBetty Parsons gallery and
getting you know some big showsand things, but this, the way
(29:02):
they're remembered today, isnowhere near how people viewed
them then.
Right and so you think about youknow yourself as a young artist
and you know we'll always saywe're not talking age, we're not
talking young as 20.
Like, we're talking work.
Young artists, immature, mature.
They were young artists then.
Right, they were immature intheir work.
They're feeding off of eachother.
(29:24):
And here you have Jasper Johns,cy Twombly and Robert
Rauschenberg who are in eachother's studios, traveling the
world together, you know,discussing things.
I mean some of my favoritephotographs of Cy Twombly, the
black and white piece.
You know, photographs werepictures that Rauschenberg took
in Rome, so it's like, that'slike they were.
(29:44):
They're in the same place thatwe're in and right today, when
you're visiting your buddy'sstudio or your girlfriend's
studio or your friend's studioand you're hanging out together
and doing these things, likethat's what they were doing then
.
But yet, because we know themnow in our history, we look back
and go what Are you kidding me?
They had no idea they weregoing to be where they are today
, had no idea, but they stayedwith it, kept working, kept
(30:06):
experimenting.
I mean I've been in rare formthis week in the studio.
I mean I've been in rare formthis week in the studio, like I
mean I've been dancing and justlike, so full of joy, creating.
And I've had a couplemonumental failures in
experiments in the last week,like monumental working, trying
to work with ash and acrylicsand make texture and it didn't
bond well and it all cracked.
(30:27):
It was great when it was wetand it looked fantastic, but it
all cracked and it's all.
So they're done right, theyright there.
I may hold on to them, I maytoss them, I don't know, but
I've still just been in thestate of joy and just, you know,
lou reed cranked up to 11 anddancing in the studio and just
having a blast, you know ton ofbowie records on and just like
(30:47):
enjoying life.
But then there are the momentsthat there's the weeks where
it's just like I feel, like Iweigh, you know, have 600 pounds
of lead on my shoulders when Iwalk in the studio and I'm
dragging my feet and not knowingwhat to do, and so it's funny
you mentioned Bowie, I was justI just last night I rewatched,
(31:24):
uh, the life aquatic with SteveZissou.
Oh yeah, it's just so good.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
So that's what made me think of that.
Yep, um, but you're talkingabout your time in the studio
and this, this reminds me ofsomething.
you had a chance to obviously bewith you, uh, for a couple of
days and visit your studio acouple of months ago, having
seen a lot of your work, ofcourse you know on a, on a
screen and online, but having achance to really get my nose in
it and see it, um, and you'vegot some work there from from
different periods, which wasreally cool.
(31:48):
You know some from from quitequite some time ago.
Yeah, I wanted to ask you aboutthis because you've been at
this a lot longer than I.
Have something you said earlier, and feel free to correct me,
cause I'm going to miss, youknow, uh, whatever quote you,
but you said something to theeffect of you know, once I take
something to a certain point andthen I decide to, you know,
move on from, from that, but youdon't forget, right, Like I,
(32:09):
I'm going to make a statementand then I'm going to put it to
you as a question, but, like I'mguessing, tell me, you know,
true or false, but I'm guessingyou don't forget the things that
you've tried, the things thatyou've worked, because, um, not
only do you have your journals,but you've got all the work to
look at and say, oh yeah, that'swhat I did.
You know with, with that and,and you can always sort of pick
up wherever you may have leftoff, even if it was multiple
(32:33):
years or series.
You know beforehand, right,like there's always going to be
that through line.
In other words, you've alreadyacquired that, it's in your,
it's in your, your arsenal, soto speak.
Is that?
Is that true?
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean.
And I, you know, I spend a lotof time really listening and
talking to the work too andreally taking mental inventory
of things while I'm working onit, before, after, during, you
know.
And there are times like I justmoved a lot of my work that I
have in my studio storage.
I moved it from the front halfto the back half this last week.
(33:07):
So going back while I'm movingeach piece, you know, and
thinking through when I made it,why I made it, why does that
not hold any anything todaycompared to then?
Why am I not, you know?
And there were certain pieces Igo, oh, I can't believe I did
that, but I'm glad I did.
And there are other pieces I go, oh, huh, interesting.
(33:29):
Okay, you know what I mean.
And and to have that inventorycome up in the story and you
know why I was doing it.
But the work that you make inthe past isn't for not, it's all
important.
It doesn't matter how shitty itis or how really strong it may
be.
It all has a place and it allhas a purpose.
Not only is that your personalhistory, that's your timeline
(33:54):
right.
Art intersects with life period.
There's no way anybody can sayit doesn't, it does.
So it's also your life storythat you're looking at in the
past too, and I'm constantlygoing back and looking at old
work, you know, and I think it'sa measure for me it's just a
measuring too of wow, I reallyhave grown yeah, I really have
(34:16):
grown from this from 2014 or2016, 2017.
And I go, man, I laid it, made alot of work.
Um, I think that's one thing Ialways look back on and I'm
always think I didn't make thatmuch work this year.
Man, have I even been doinganything?
Always think I didn't make thatmuch work this year.
Man, have I even been doinganything?
And then, all of a sudden, Ilook at my inventory list and I
(34:38):
go, whoa, I made a lot more workthan I thought I did, which I
think is a good thing, becauseit's means that mentally, I'm so
focused on what I'm doing I'mnot really realizing the output,
because I'm just constantlyaccepting those irresistible
possibilities of things I can'tignore and I'm just rolling with
work.
Way to bring it full circle.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Well done, you know that.
That's one thing too, that thatthat you definitely helped me
with was, um, I think, um andI'm sure we'll talk about some
some Austin Cleon, uh quotes atsome point but just the idea of
sharing your work, but whetheror not you choose to share it,
point, but just the idea ofsharing your work, but whether
or not you choose to share it.
You know, I've become a bigproponent for capturing video.
(35:18):
Um, you know, again, whether ornot you're going to post it or
share it, but man, that's,that's like game film.
I posted about this recently,but I was really thinking about,
like, all right, I was re, re,re editing a video that I'd done
and in preparation for a seriesthat I'm starting, where I had
experimented with a lot of newmaterial.
You know, like taking the, youknow the the burnt pallets and
dipping them in in in resin andtrying to figure out how it's
(35:40):
all going to going to work out.
And I'm not somebody who's like,my process is far from
scientific.
While I'm doing it, I'm notfreaking, taking notes and
measurements.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, but when you've got that,that game film, right, like you
know athletes, you know theywatch a lot of game film.
You know they watch back whatworked, what didn't.
(36:00):
Okay, let's do more of whatworked.
Hey, let's not do what whatdidn't work.
And what does it look like?
What does it feel like?
You know, in in in both, bothcamps.
But, you know, having thatavailable in addition to, of
course, the work and thejournals, but being able to
watch back and say, oh, okay,cool, because that for me, you
know, like, as I'm chasing downthose irresistible possibilities
that in many cases just sort of, like you know, occur in the
(36:23):
moment that I didn't haveplanned out I mean or or or
anticipated that's reallyvaluable, because I think that
that then lends itself to beingable to carry that forward into,
you know, future work, if youdo indeed want to try and you
know, replicate something thatactually, you know did indeed
work.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Well, we I mean, we have plenty of tools we can use
today to be our ownencyclopedias, right, as Austin
Cleon says, be a documentarianof what you do gather, gather,
gather, store, store, store andthen run it through a checklist
(37:00):
of um.
Is this worth sharing?
Is it not worth sharing?
Could it be worth sharing?
You know, and um, really, Ifilm for a lot of reasons.
You know, I'm kind of a uh, Idon't know how to word it uh, an
idiot dreamer, I guess.
In a way, it's like well, if Imake it someday and somebody
wants to make a documentary ofmy life, story and art, they're
going to have a ton of video tochoose from, you know, so, like,
I'm a big dreamer, though on alevel that I feel like I don't
(37:21):
know.
I mean, I was born a dreamer,I'm always dreaming things.
But I mean, deep inside, youknow, I want to be really great
at what I do, whether I'mrecognized or not.
Right, it's like I could be, weall could have that chance to
be recognized someday for whatwe create.
Um, a lot of us will, not veryfew of us will.
(37:42):
Man, I sure want to be thatwill, and so that just drives me
right, it drives me to createand to keep pushing, to keep
going, whether I'm recognized ornot, for myself right, for my
own sanity, for my ownconfidence, I'm going to drive
myself to the ground, working ashard as I can to try and be,
hopefully, that someday I don'tknow where I mean listen, we
(38:05):
don't know where we're going tofall.
We don't make the decisions ofthe art world right.
We're so far removed from thedecision makers that it's insane
.
But I do believe that if youwork your ass off and you
continually put time and effortinto growing and experimenting
and trying to find something inthere and you put it out to the
(38:27):
world and as many opportunitiesand ways that you can today,
there's a chance.
You're giving yourself a lotmore chance to be recognized or
be found if you're not puttingit out there to the world.
Yeah, you know, it's the.
In that conversation of thevideo, the interview we watched
with Leo Castelli, theinterviewer asked how did you
(38:49):
get into the Betty Parsonsgallery?
Yeah, right.
And he says oh, oh well, Iwalked in there with all my
heart and I said to hey, betty.
And she said I only look atwork on Tuesdays, or something
like that.
He goes well.
I'm here and she looked at hiswork.
Would you be willing to?
Speaker 2 (39:09):
pretend it's a Tuesday, right Right.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
So it's like you know that doesn't work today.
Don't do that.
Please don't do that.
Artists, if you're listening inthat, don't do that.
But the boldness, right, Likethat boldness of I'm going to
take my art to the people thatnotice art, Right, Right, we
have a lot of different ways wecan do that today, Intelligently
(39:33):
, not like the dumb artist I'msorry if I've just tabbed any of
you listening don't go into thegallery.
Don't go find the gallery ownerand tell them you're an artist
and ask if you can bring yourart in from your car.
Yeah, Um, unless they inviteyou to do that, Right, Um, and
and maybe we'll have an entireepisode just discussing those
things, um, down down the roadwith some with some good quotes
(39:57):
about how to how to actually dothat.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Well, I like that, though, as a, as a, as we kind
of wrap up and bring things intothe more you know, sort of
tangible takeaway, um, you knowcategory, just that.
I mean I'm just thinking aboutwhat we're doing right now, just
like we have no idea ifanyone's going to be interested
in.
I mean, as as of recording, wehave not posted a single episode
.
Yeah, we have no idea ifanyone's going to be interested
in this or if we're going to beable to, uh, whatever, if this
is going to go anywhere.
But it's worth trying.
We both enjoy havingconversations about art and are
(40:26):
willing to put it out there andjust kind of see what happens,
right?
So, um, I think thatirresistible possibility I mean,
if I were, I'll I'll turn itover to you in a moment for last
, last thoughts here, but Ithink if I had one, it would be
just, uh, just encouraging.
You know, anybody who's who'sgot a desire to do anything
creative like, keep chasing downthose irresistible
(40:47):
possibilities of of what youcan't, and don't be afraid, um,
you know, to try things thatthat may not ever work because,
as we've discussed this entireepisode, you just never know.
You know what's going to hit,what's going to kind of light
that fire or ignite the nextthing.
That could be the thing, right,even if the thing you're doing
at that moment, um, may not endup being quote, unquote it it's
(41:10):
gonna, it's, it's all, it's allpositive momentum, you know, in
the direction that you're tryingto go.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Well, yeah, and to piggyback on that, make your own
opportunities.
You can make your ownopportunities before
opportunities are created foryou.
Yeah, you know, do a house show.
You know I.
I did a house show here locallylast year with a group of
friends of mine.
Two incredible female artistsput on a house show of friends
of ours and they had emptied outthe house, had work in the
(41:39):
house, had work in the garage,set up a great area for people
to hang out in the middle inbetween.
It was just such a I mean, oh,I will do a house show any day
of the week.
There's nothing more enjoyablethan just hanging out with
people and talking about art ina non-pressure filled
environment where it's literallyjust focused on the art,
(42:01):
nothing else.
It's not focused on work,selling, not focusing on is the
press going to write a goodstory?
You know what I mean.
It's like just fun, you know,drinking wine, sitting outside,
talking about your work, talkingabout the other artists, work,
meeting people you don't knowfrom timing.
Create your own opportunities.
You can.
You know I, you know I say thisall the time to everybody like
(42:25):
show, work, show, work, show,work, show, work, show, work.
Doesn't matter where it is Caferestaurant gallery.
One of my One of my formermentees had her first solo show
in Germany and she approached arestaurant hey, can I do a show?
They said yes and she had asolo show.
It doesn't matter if it's at arestaurant, it doesn't matter
(42:46):
where it is it's a show.
A show is a show is a show.
Fill that resume out your own,your own opportunities.
Do something fun.
Go set up work at a park andinvite all your friends and do
an outdoor show to park like.
Create your opportunities.
You can.
You can do it yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
And then back to what we said before too right,
there's never been a better time, you know.
There's never been fewer, youknow, sticking points or
gatekeepers to like we didn'thave to ask anybody's permission
to start making a podcast.
We don't again.
I have no idea if anyone'sgoing to be interested in
listening to it or watching it,but nothing prevented us from
trying and starting it, and justyou and I do this.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Yeah, we do this on a regular basis anyways on the
phone, so it's like or by textmessage hey, did you see this
quote?
Hey, we watched this interview,so why not just talk about it
and see if anybody else isinterested?
That's it.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
That's it.
Um, that's awesome.
I think that.
Uh, that wraps it up for me,Unless you have anything else
you want to close out with.
Nope Go make smart Love it.
See y'all next time.
Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of
Just Make Art, a conversationabout making art and the
artist's journey, with myself,ty Nathan-Clark, from Waco,
texas, and my buddy, nathanTurborg, from Minneapolis,
minnesota.
We're just two artists tryingto navigate the art world, just
like you, and I am pretty pumpedup about the artists we're
(00:22):
going to talk about today, sosomebody that's one of my heroes
it's going to be a good one.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We're going to talk about a quote by the one and
only Robert Rauschenberg.
You know, one of these dayswe'll probably have a quote.
It's going to be a recurringtheme, like hey, really excited
to talk about this, but one ofthese days we'll have a quote.
It's like, eh, just not buildit up at all.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Like, I'm kind of so-so on this one, but we'll
give it our best shot.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
All right.
So here's the quote we're goingto discuss today.
I usually work in a directionuntil I know how to do it.
Then I stop.
At the time I am bored, orunderstand, and I use those
words interchangeably.
Another appetite has formed.
A lot of people try to think upideas.
I'm not one.
I'd rather accept theirresistible possibilities of
(01:07):
what I can't ignore.
So lots to unpack here.
Why don't you give us our firstpass?
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yeah, and you know that quote makes a lot of sense.
If you're a Rauschenberg fan, ifyou followed his career, you
know that he's definitely a guywhose appetite is constantly
changing from one form, onemedium to another.
You know, from painting tosculpture, to prints,
photography, performance, dancewhich a lot of people don't
(01:36):
really know, his performance anddance stuff that spanned over,
you know, 60 years, you know,and he really jumped onto the
scene during the Ab-X movementbut is kind of known as a
neo-Dadaist, as a pop artistWorked in what a lot of people
call combines, which are likeassemblage art, big collages,
(01:59):
three-dimensional stuff, stuff,black Mountain College in North
Carolina, working under JosephAlbers, to collaborators with
John Cage the composer, to hisdear friend Cy Twombly, and then
, of course, just the dialoguethat he and Jasper Johns really
(02:20):
shaped in their time togetherand their friendship is probably
what most artists reallyrecognize is that relationship
with he and Jasper Johns and theway that they really influenced
each other and each other'sstudios and sharing studios and
back and forth, and just thatrelationship of a true artist,
peer right, that is soinfluential.
(02:42):
In all you do, you run the ideasby and they critique your work.
You're in this constantdialogue on how to grow and how
to change and how to develop,and you know, both of those guys
were in that realm of you know,I'm not going to be thinking up
ideas, I'm just going to work,work, work, work, work.
And when I can't ignoresomething, I'm just going to
(03:05):
dive into it full, full force,right, yeah, yeah, it's
interesting.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
I think, um, I, I definitely in learning more
about uh Rauschenberg and Iwatched a couple of
documentaries and and gobble upas many interviews on on YouTube
as I could find but Idefinitely, uh, you know, I feel
a kinship with his philosophyand just approach to the art
making process.
And you know I feel a kinshipwith his philosophy and just
approach to the art makingprocess and you know almost
everything that I that I've reador heard him say.
It's like oh, yeah, you know,and he speaks you mentioned this
(03:30):
when we were, when we werepreparing but you know, he
speaks so eloquently and and andpoetically.
It's there's so many just gems.
You know that that, uh, thatwe've got to mine, so, um, we'll
probably, we'll probably sharea couple more of those as we go
through here today.
But, yeah, it's interesting.
I mean just in kind of breakingthis one down.
(03:50):
There's so much just in thisone quote.
But I think, you know, justgoing in kind of chronological
order, I think that at the timeI'm bored, or understand, and
using those two wordsinterchangeably.
You know, that's something forme that like immediately, just,
you know, yes, you know, I getthat, you know completely.
Like you know, understanding,you know, is boring, or when you
(04:14):
get to a certain point, and assomebody who's, you know, very
easily bored and very easilydistracted, you know, it seems
to me that, like you said,looking at his body of work over
his career and all thedifferent, you know, mediums
that he expressed himself, Imean that's pretty evident, you
know, in his approach to work.
But I think about, like, I'mcurious to hear your thoughts on
(04:37):
this too, but I personallydon't have any interest in
mastery, you know, and it seemsas though he really didn't
either.
If you think about that whole,um, you know, zen, buddhist, uh,
concept of, like, having thebeginner's mind, you know, um,
in fact, there's a quote thatcame to mind as I was thinking
about our conversation today.
I wanted to share, and this isfrom uh, uh, I'm going to I'm
(04:59):
going to mispronounce itprobably, but Shinryo Suzuki in
the beginner's mind mind, thereare many possibilities.
In the expert's mind there arefew.
I'm sure you've heard thatbefore too, but you know, you
think about rauchenberg and youknow he certainly uh, seems to
have had that beginner's mindapproach.
You know, the whole way throughmeaning that, or my
interpretation being um, youknow, once he, once he starts to
(05:21):
understand something, he getsbored you isn't interested in
pursuing.
You know, expert level at anyone thing, it's, it's onto the
next.
It's continuing to sort offoster that, that, um, you know,
fresh eyes and beginner's mindapproach to this process.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Sometimes we create things out of necessity, right?
And so it's like that.
That beginner's mind isnothing's off limits, right?
The, the person who leaves thebeginner and starts to become
more advanced, kind of focusesmore in on, like what you said,
mastery, and oh, okay, I got touse the best oil paints now, and
so I don't go, I don't inventthings because I don't have
(06:00):
necessity, right?
I don't have this forced thingupon me that I have to use
coffee this week because Icannot afford to go out and buy
brown or burnt sienna to use inmy painting.
So, it's like, and I waswatching another interview with
with Rauschenberg late lastnight and he talked about you
(06:21):
know.
The question was you know, whydid you use so many random
things in your work?
And he said well, you know,economy is why I did it.
You know, I started doing thesethings because I didn't have
the money.
So I lost my car.
You know.
He says in this interview withLeo Castelli, his art dealer and
friend, as he says, I lost mycar and so I had a blanket that
(06:47):
was over my car that kept theradiator warm in the winter when
it was cold, and so I used thatblanket to paint on, you know,
and I think Leo said that's mine, I have that, you know.
And he said oh yeah, you dohave that, that is yours, you
know, and so, but it's likenecessities, like I used a towel
to paint on and create on.
Have you ever tried to use atowel?
It's hard.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
But it also takes away the board, the mattress,
right from that sameconversation.
The mattress, yeah, yeah,exactly what was the concept?
It's what I had around, right?
What?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
I had around Necessity being the mother of
invention Yep.
Economy is why I started, and Ithink those conversations give
you permission to use whateverthe heck you want when you're
working Right.
And I do that, like, I run outof certain things and I go okay,
how in the world can I conveythis message?
Um, okay, let's use cardboard.
Let's, what do I have in thestudio around me that I could
(07:34):
bring into this piece and makesense of it?
And that helps me not get toobored as well.
Right, because I've gone backand looked at old series of work
and gone.
Man, I really liked thedirection I was going there.
Why am I not doing that anymore?
And I go oh well, cause it wasdone.
Right, I got bored.
Right.
So that same part where he saysI work in a direction until I
(07:57):
know how to do it.
Yeah, then I stop.
If you keep working in thedirection you know how to do,
you're never going to grow andyour work is just going to be
boring.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Well, there's so much excitement that comes from.
You know, as a, I mean I I loveworking with anything.
I can pretty much get my handson, but there's so much
excitement that comes from justa new material and not knowing
how it's going to behave, right,just being like we'll see how
this goes, we'll see what typeof marks this makes and how, you
know, everything interacts.
You know that was another quoteof his I wanted to bring up so
(08:25):
perfect introduction to that.
But you know he said I mostlywork in trash, and this is from
that same interview, by the way.
We'll link it in thedescription.
But fantastic interview, that'son YouTube here.
But I mostly work in trash and Ilove this.
The idea of a beautiful pieceof silk or beautiful color
consumed with its own vanitydidn't interest me, isn't that
(08:49):
great?
Like you know, this the, theidea that this material a
beautiful piece of silk or abeautiful color, consumed with
its own vanity, in other words,I mean the way I read that is
like you know something that'salready inherently beautiful,
just not interesting.
So just that whole idea ofworking with you know so many
different, uh, differentmaterials and and and trash is,
(09:10):
uh, is really interesting to me.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Well, and you know, if you've been to a museum,
especially in America, you'vecome across a Rauschenberg piece
, whether you realize it or not,right, you've either come
across a collage, um, large orsmall, or you've come across one
of his combines, one of hisassemblage pieces.
And as you're saying that, youknow, I think about the quote
where he says you know, paintingrelates to both art and life,
(09:34):
either can be made.
But I act in the gap betweenthe two.
And that when I see his work, Ithink that because some of my
favorite pieces, you know, theymay have a ladder that's
attached to the, to the combine,or a chair and then a towel,
and then color and things, andit's almost as if he was in his
room and he was looking aroundor, you know, walked out the
(09:56):
door to the trash can and sawthis ladder.
So it's like he's combining thisgap of life, what exists,
what's out there, what istangible, but then kind of his
life as he's piecing together,you know, his philosophy behind
his work and he's a very he's aprocessor, right, he's not a
(10:29):
fast talker, not a quick.
He doesn't relay informationright away.
You know there's plenty ofmoments in interviews where he
disappears for a minute, yeah,and you're like it's a little
awkward.
Where's he going?
Right, and sometimes theinterviewer doesn't realize it
and starts to talk, and then,all of a sudden, rauschenberg
comes in with a full force.
You know like he catches hismoment and I think, when I see
(10:50):
his work, I feel that, yeah,that there's this deep
philosophy of processing eachthing that he's doing, each
piece that he puts on.
There is this slow, thought outprocess of that combination of
life and art.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that you remind me
of that, um, the interview umwith Charlie Rose.
That's actually quite.
I don't know if you watch thatone, but it's, it's pretty
awkward.
You know, and and and CharlieRose, a masterful interviewer
who's interviewed, you know,thousands of people from all,
all walks of life andbackgrounds, but he never quite
got the pacing down because,right as he was about to, as
(11:27):
Rauschenberg was about to sortof, you know, bring it home, or,
or, you know, catch that nextwave, as, as put it like, um,
charlie Rhodes is just trying to, you know, pull out.
You know, kind of the the nextthing, but that definitely I
liked that.
You said that.
That definitely does speak tothe sort of intentionality
around you know, his, uh, hisideas, and that's kind of the
next part.
Um, as we kind of work throughthis chronologically, I guess,
(11:47):
is just, I love the whole ideaof appetite and I wanted to talk
about that a little bit.
Like you know, another appetitehas formed.
So this is something where, um,you know the uh as a, as a
recovering addict myself, andknowing you know his, his
struggles with alcohol and hisstruggles to to get um to get
sober later in life.
I think there's something aboutthat appetite for more that
(12:08):
where you happen to have thatparticular background, you know
or not, but I think that'ssomething that a lot of artists
share.
We can call it you know, sortof that insatiable curiosity you
know of, oh, I wonder, you knowwhat if, um, what if this you
know?
And I think that when you'reopen and when you're curious,
which I think is probably one ofthe most common characteristics
that you know creatives of alltypes you know probably have, is
(12:30):
just that, that, that curiosity.
But I think when you're open tothat extent um, the way he
certainly was, you know theappetite, you know forms on its
own right.
It's not something that he hasto conjure up.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yep Well, and he says you make art, you are art, you
live art, you do art, you aredoing what no one can stop you
doing Art is your life.
If you are an artist and youmake art and you're making a lot
of it, that appetite continuesto grow and grow and grow the
more that you make it.
Because the more you make it,the more you go look at it.
(13:03):
Right, the more you go look atit, the more you start to read
about it and then, right, yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I study like crazy and Iwork like crazy, but for me that
(13:25):
appetite is.
I know why Rauschenberg had sucha wide range of mediums,
because when you're creating,you start thinking, well, what
could it be in this element?
How can I take it to thiselement?
How can I take this to thiselement?
I don't know if I believe thathe's not the person who tries to
(13:46):
think up ideas that he says.
A lot of people try to think upideas, and I'm not one man.
If you're an artist, you'reideating like crazy.
That new modern word that isn'treally in the dictionary, you
know ideation, it's become aword.
You're ideating all the time.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
It's one of my strength finders, by the way, so
thanks for bringing that up.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Appreciate it, and so it's like for me now that I'm
trying to go morethree-dimensional.
I started out in sculpture andceramics, I moved into painting
and have just been painting fora long time, but then have been
doing sculpture here and there,not a lot but small bodies of
sculptures and things.
But the more I paint, the moreI'm saying how do I get my work
(14:24):
more into the room than justflat on the wall?
Yeah, right.
So thinking through, how can Ido that with canvas?
Can I fold it?
Can I crumple it Right, can Ibring it off the painting more?
Okay, now, how do I get it intothe floor?
How do I have these things I'mworking on, these ideas I have
and these stories I'm telling?
How do I'm working on theseideas I have in these stories
(14:53):
I'm telling, how do I get theminto more space?
Right, so I can totally seeRauschenberg, right, wanting to
move into performance and dance,wanting to move into, you know,
sculpture and all you know allthese ideas and all these things
that he has in his artistmakeup.
How can I now bring them evenmore into the audience's senses
than just flat on a wall?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Totally does, yeah, and thinking about too, how you
know I mean a career of, of, ofhis length and magnitude.
He tried a lot of differentthings, you know.
A lot of them worked a lot ofthem.
A lot of them maybe didn'twrite like his photography.
That he did later in his careerwas something he clearly had a
passion for and loved, you know,with all the travels that he
did around, the sort ofhumanitarian efforts that he was
, that he was engaged in.
But everything leads to the nextthing, right, and I think
(15:30):
that's that's.
That's what's interesting isthat you know, maybe all of the
um, whatever let's just use anexample those, those, those
stills may not have been elitethat he ever set out to be great
at at that, but that then ledto the next thing, or was
informed by everything you know,sort of that came before it.
I'm going to disagree with youon something.
I actually believe him when hesays that he doesn't try to
(15:52):
think up ideas, like I believethat somebody like that, the
ideas just sort of come.
You know what I mean.
Like sure, their ideas arepresent, right.
So we're kind of, we're kind of, you know, splitting hairs a
little bit, but I think thatthere's a difference between.
When I read that sentence, alot of people try to think of
ideas.
I'm not one.
I think of him sort ofreferring to somebody who's like
(16:12):
all right, pen and a pad Let metry to figure this out and sort
of engineer.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Sure Conjure, exactly yeah, as opposed to just being
open.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
And something else he talks about is how he doesn't
really know what he's going todo.
You know before, but he'sdisciplined to to continue to
work Right A reoccurring themeof a lot of the quotes and
things that we discuss here.
But anyway, I believe him.
I believe him when he says thatthey just sort of come, as
opposed to having to generatethem, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Well, and maybe that's the wording to, a lot of
people try to think up ideas.
Maybe it's a lot of people tryto conjure and invent ideas,
right, right Cause I definitely.
I mean, I know my ideas arelisted in, you know, the the 50
journals that I'm constantlywriting down every idea I have.
So I don't forget stuff.
Because I forget stuff, right,like stories, books finished my
(17:06):
first novel this year, you know.
So it's like I've got all thesethings I want to do and I think
, too, like I want to encourageall the artists out there
listening, like don't let yourideas hold you back.
Right, because I know there areplenty of painters who want to
sculpt, plenty of sculptors whowant to paint, plenty of artists
who are like I've got an ideafor a film, short, right, I've
got an idea I'd love to write,I'd love to.
(17:28):
It's like no, don't not do that.
Like, find ways to create asmuch as you can create right in
your time that you have here onthis earth.
You know, and life is short,like we know that.
You know that very well justfrom stories in your life.
Life is short and that's, youknow, it's one of the reasons
why you decided I got to makethis jump and be a full-time
(17:51):
artist and make art in the timethat I have.
Don't let those things hold youback.
Right, like I love you know, hesays.
I'd rather accept theirresistible possibilities of
what I can't ignore.
Yeah, if those ideas are justcrushing your head and you
cannot ignore them, figure out away to make it.
Figure out a way to do it.
(18:12):
And today we have tools to dojust about anything.
You want to make music, youwant to make soundscapes, you
want to make a short?
You could use your phone to doall those things.
It's so much easier today thanin 1950, where it's a little
more difficult to have thisbroad range of things that
you're creating.
Um, I say, find a way to go forit.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
It's, there's never been a better time to be a
generalist as opposed to aspecialist.
You know, let's say I don'tknow if we've talked about this
before.
It probably be a good quote todiscuss at some point.
But there's a really, reallygreat book that I got a lot from
as I was considering, you know,transitioning, but it's a book
called A Range, by David EpsteinI think is the name of the
author.
But anyway, the basic premiseis that it's the generalist who
(18:58):
has a taste or a broad range ofexperiences and backgrounds that
can sort of find theintersection, you know, and pick
out some of those you knownovel uses for you know concepts
that make a ton of sense inother spaces, and so you think
about from a creative standpoint, from an artistic standpoint.
(19:19):
It just kind of makes sensethat the more things you try,
even if you're not great at thatthing like I love videography,
I love photography, I may or maynot ever try to do anything you
know that I put out in theworld, apart from just, you know
, filming myself, making art andtaking pictures, you know, but
that's like, just as an example,my understanding of my basic
(19:39):
understanding of lighting, youknow, from a, from a film or,
you know, photography standpoint, you know, certainly informs my
.
The way that I, you know, uselight, everything you know, one
hand washes the other,everything leads to the, to the
next thing, you know, and Ithink that, um, that's a really
um, yeah, that last part thatyou talked about, you know, just
the, I'd rather accept theirresistible possibilities of
(20:00):
what I can't ignore.
So I don't know for sure, Imean the fact that he was, you
know, an addict and struggledwith that.
That was, that's documented.
I don't know for sure if he'salso ADD or ADHD, as I identify,
but that's a very like ADD sortof thing to say.
Right, the irresistiblepossibilities, you know, and
(20:21):
that's I mean personally again,like why, why I feel a spirit to
so much, so many of hisphilosophies and ways of
thinking, is they areirresistible.
I think that's probably acharacteristic, the more I've
had a chance to get to know andlearn about other artists.
That seems to be another commonthread that not everybody
(20:42):
shares.
Common thread that noteverybody shares, but but
certainly just, uh, anexcitement of, of the mundane,
or the easily, easilydistractibility of, oh, I wonder
, wonder about this, or I wonderabout that, that he certainly
had.
There's a quote that that's um,uh, another one of his that I
wanted to share, kind of alongthis same vein.
But uh, he said, I really feelsorry for people who think
things like soap dishes ormirrors or Coke bottles are ugly
(21:04):
because they're surrounded by.
Things like soap dishes ormirrors or coke bottles are ugly
because they're surrounded bythings like that all day long
and it must make them miserableand I think that's just a
fantastic quote.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yeah, it's great, you know it's like.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, it's like but kind of back to that whole um,
you know, idea of notnecessarily wanting to work with
materials that already had a,you know, were already beautiful
inherently, you know,necessarily, or considered, you
know, to fill in or, you know,meet the standard definition of
beauty.
You know, but that's just oneof those things.
You know that when you'rewilling to, you know, chase your
(21:38):
curiosity and try different, Imean, that's one of the things,
you know.
I shared this with you theother day.
But you know how we got to knoweach other and originally meet
with me.
You know how, how we got toknow each other and originally
meet with me.
You know, being in yourmentorship program, that was one
of the biggest things thatattracted me and I was like I
want to apply, you know, I wantto, I want to learn from this
guy, because I looked at yourbody of work and I looked at the
diversity of materials andmediums and different things
(21:59):
that you had worked and I said,okay, this is somebody who you
know can, definitely who I canlearn a lot from, because I, you
know, I'm still I'm stillfiguring things out, you know,
but one thing I know for sure isthat I'm never going to be, you
know, the artist that thatfinds one thing and just, you
know, does that one and doesthat one thing.
You know indefinitely, nodisrespect to people that that
(22:20):
have found their saying and andmine, that you know indefinitely
, but that's I know for sure.
That's not going to, you know,be me.
So, um, anyway, I just I lovehearing Rauschenberg talk about
just the irresistiblepossibilities of what I can't
ignore, because to me that's areally empowering thing to
realize.
Oh okay, what was back to theADD thing, what was a, uh, a
(22:42):
limitation to me, you know,certainly in other areas of life
, is actually a tremendousstrength that can be leveraged,
you know, especially in thiscreative space.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Sure, going back to you just talking about, you know
, my bodies of work and things,and just from a studio
perspective, I really identifywith what Robert Ruschenberg
says in that first part ofworking in the direction until I
know how to do it and then Istop part of working in the
direction until I know how to doit and then I stop when I.
When I first heard him say that,you know I really it hit home
(23:10):
for me because I don't know howI got to that point.
Maybe because I just spent somuch time when I really went
full time in the studio to studyand listening and watching and
learning from, as I call them,my dead peers from the past.
And you know I've really madethat a part of my practice.
It just became part of Iwouldn't say I made it, it
(23:30):
became part of it.
I will jump in on a directionand I will go full force and
make 20, 30 paintings, you know,in that direction, each one
hopefully growing after the next, and you know a lot of them.
Failures, some of themsuccesses very few, great, very
few.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Hopefully some good work there.
Those are all the places wherewe agree with something.
No, that's perfect.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
You know that's the support we need from our, from
our artist peers.
But all of a sudden, I get tothis point where, like Bobby
says he's bored or understandsit, I either go you know what
time for the next thing I'm, I'mover this or, oh my gosh, I
understand where I'm going andI'm not there yet.
So it's got to switch, it's gotto, it's got to change and now
develop this way, even though itdidn't work that way.
(24:18):
And so it's like you know,understanding using those
interchangeably right Boreddoesn't mean it's not working
right.
You know what I mean.
Board means I've used up allthat I have to give within this,
and it's taking me to thisplace now, and now I'm able to
go with this place and keeprolling.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
so you kind of mentioned it, but I think it'd
be valuable for um for you to totalk a little bit more about
how does one keep oneself fromgetting from feeling like they
have to stay in a certain youknow lane, right, because maybe
it comes more naturally to someyou know, than than others, but
there is sort of a certain youknow, uh, there are some
(24:59):
external pressures to you know,to get figure out your thing and
then, and then just do thatthing Right.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
For most of us, this is the most exciting time to be
an artist, you know, in thatemerging or beginning stages,
because you don't have thosepressures.
Um, you have your own personalon unneeded pressures of
performing for Instagram orperforming for social media or
what you think is watching youin the invisible shadows in your
(25:31):
studio or wherever you work.
If you find success in the artworld and by success I don't
mean being rich, I mean byhaving work that is being seen
and shown in galleries andthings like that and selling
here and there there's going tobe a pressure that's going to
settle in to perform or tocontinue to create that thing
(25:53):
which is selling.
Right, you sell three paintingsthat have similar feels.
A lot of artists get then stuckin the trap and I'm not saying
that this is wrong.
If an artist decides oh, I'mgoing to continue to do this
because I can make money,because, gosh, we're in this
because we love it, but we alsoneed to make money doing it.
We can't just flail at the windand not make any money with our
(26:15):
work.
So there is that pressure thatwill come of I need to continue
to create this, to sell work,and you can fall in a major trap
of just doing that and thengetting stuck there and not
leaving it.
And I have plenty of artists,friends, who get to that point
and are very unhappy with lifeand studio time because they're
(26:37):
performing and they're having tocreate what's selling rather
than creating their new ideasand the new experiments and
really growing beyond where theywere.
And a lot of them get bored withit.
I mean, imagine you know thetimes when you're working on
something and you're bored.
Imagine if that was your nineto five every day, right For a
(26:59):
year, creating work that you'rebored with.
I mean, we've lost so manyartists to suicide in the past
because that becomes adebilitating mental pressure on
top of the things that weexperience as artists as well in
our solitude.
So, yeah, be be really carefulIf I think.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I mean it's interesting too.
I mean, I think you know, oneof the things that that I think
is so inspiring about just theopportunity to, to be, uh, an
artist is is the um, thelifespan of, I mean, apart from
you know, I mean obviouslylifestyle choices, you know,
(27:42):
play into that, but you see somany artists that that um, that
continue working I mean mostright until until they die, and
that's not the kind of thing Imean.
If you think about a morewhatever nine to five or
traditional, you know career orjob path, you know we're
sprinting for that finish lineLike man.
As soon as I have 66 and a halfor whatever, whatever the
number, as soon as I can getthat pension, that retirement,
(28:04):
as soon as I don't have to dothis crap that I don't love
doing on a daily basis, I'm done.
You know art should never bethat way and of course there's
going to be mundane aspects ofthe day-to-day like I freaking
hate.
You know cleaning up andorganizing and all of the stuff
around.
You know emails and whatever,all the stuff that goes along
with just, you know, being aprofessional at whatever you're,
(28:27):
whatever you're trying to do,um, but the work itself, you
know, should, for the most part,really energize you.
You know, and I think it'sevident in Rauschenberg's work
that you know, he was excited tokeep creating, you know, as, as
long as he lived, when it's.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
You know, it's funny to me to always think back to
going.
Yeah, but he had Jasper Johnsinside Twombly in his studio
every day.
Right and so.
But you're like, but wait, notmany people knew who they were
at that point.
Maybe they, you know, were inBetty Parsons gallery and
getting you know some big showsand things, but this, the way
(29:02):
they're remembered today, isnowhere near how people viewed
them then.
Right and so you think about youknow yourself as a young artist
and you know we'll always saywe're not talking age, we're not
talking young as 20.
Like, we're talking work.
Young artists, immature, mature.
They were young artists then.
Right, they were immature intheir work.
They're feeding off of eachother.
(29:24):
And here you have Jasper Johns,cy Twombly and Robert
Rauschenberg who are in eachother's studios, traveling the
world together, you know,discussing things.
I mean some of my favoritephotographs of Cy Twombly, the
black and white piece.
You know, photographs werepictures that Rauschenberg took
in Rome, so it's like, that'slike they were.
(29:44):
They're in the same place thatwe're in and right today, when
you're visiting your buddy'sstudio or your girlfriend's
studio or your friend's studioand you're hanging out together
and doing these things, likethat's what they were doing then
.
But yet, because we know themnow in our history, we look back
and go what Are you kidding me?
They had no idea they weregoing to be where they are today
, had no idea, but they stayedwith it, kept working, kept
(30:06):
experimenting.
I mean I've been in rare formthis week in the studio.
I mean I've been in rare formthis week in the studio, like I
mean I've been dancing and justlike, so full of joy, creating.
And I've had a couplemonumental failures in
experiments in the last week,like monumental working, trying
to work with ash and acrylicsand make texture and it didn't
bond well and it all cracked.
(30:27):
It was great when it was wetand it looked fantastic, but it
all cracked and it's all.
So they're done right, theyright there.
I may hold on to them, I maytoss them, I don't know, but
I've still just been in thestate of joy and just, you know,
lou reed cranked up to 11 anddancing in the studio and just
having a blast, you know ton ofbowie records on and just like
(30:47):
enjoying life.
But then there are the momentsthat there's the weeks where
it's just like I feel, like Iweigh, you know, have 600 pounds
of lead on my shoulders when Iwalk in the studio and I'm
dragging my feet and not knowingwhat to do, and so it's funny
you mentioned Bowie, I was justI just last night I rewatched,
(31:24):
uh, the life aquatic with SteveZissou.
Oh yeah, it's just so good.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
So that's what made me think of that.
Yep, um, but you're talkingabout your time in the studio
and this, this reminds me ofsomething.
you had a chance to obviously bewith you, uh, for a couple of
days and visit your studio acouple of months ago, having
seen a lot of your work, ofcourse you know on a, on a
screen and online, but having achance to really get my nose in
it and see it, um, and you'vegot some work there from from
different periods, which wasreally cool.
(31:48):
You know some from from quitequite some time ago.
Yeah, I wanted to ask you aboutthis because you've been at
this a lot longer than I.
Have something you said earlier, and feel free to correct me,
cause I'm going to miss, youknow, uh, whatever quote you,
but you said something to theeffect of you know, once I take
something to a certain point andthen I decide to, you know,
move on from, from that, but youdon't forget, right, Like I,
(32:09):
I'm going to make a statementand then I'm going to put it to
you as a question, but, like I'mguessing, tell me, you know,
true or false, but I'm guessingyou don't forget the things that
you've tried, the things thatyou've worked, because, um, not
only do you have your journals,but you've got all the work to
look at and say, oh yeah, that'swhat I did.
You know with, with that and,and you can always sort of pick
up wherever you may have leftoff, even if it was multiple
(32:33):
years or series.
You know beforehand, right,like there's always going to be
that through line.
In other words, you've alreadyacquired that, it's in your,
it's in your, your arsenal, soto speak.
Is that?
Is that true?
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean.
And I, you know, I spend a lotof time really listening and
talking to the work too andreally taking mental inventory
of things while I'm working onit, before, after, during, you
know.
And there are times like I justmoved a lot of my work that I
have in my studio storage.
I moved it from the front halfto the back half this last week.
(33:07):
So going back while I'm movingeach piece, you know, and
thinking through when I made it,why I made it, why does that
not hold any anything todaycompared to then?
Why am I not, you know?
And there were certain pieces Igo, oh, I can't believe I did
that, but I'm glad I did.
And there are other pieces I go, oh, huh, interesting.
(33:29):
Okay, you know what I mean.
And and to have that inventorycome up in the story and you
know why I was doing it.
But the work that you make inthe past isn't for not, it's all
important.
It doesn't matter how shitty itis or how really strong it may
be.
It all has a place and it allhas a purpose.
Not only is that your personalhistory, that's your timeline
(33:54):
right.
Art intersects with life period.
There's no way anybody can sayit doesn't, it does.
So it's also your life storythat you're looking at in the
past too, and I'm constantlygoing back and looking at old
work, you know, and I think it'sa measure for me it's just a
measuring too of wow, I reallyhave grown yeah, I really have
(34:16):
grown from this from 2014 or2016, 2017.
And I go, man, I laid it, made alot of work.
Um, I think that's one thing Ialways look back on and I'm
always think I didn't make thatmuch work this year.
Man, have I even been doinganything?
Always think I didn't make thatmuch work this year.
Man, have I even been doinganything?
And then, all of a sudden, Ilook at my inventory list and I
(34:38):
go, whoa, I made a lot more workthan I thought I did, which I
think is a good thing, becauseit's means that mentally, I'm so
focused on what I'm doing I'mnot really realizing the output,
because I'm just constantlyaccepting those irresistible
possibilities of things I can'tignore and I'm just rolling with
work.
Way to bring it full circle.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Well done, you know that.
That's one thing too, that thatthat you definitely helped me
with was, um, I think, um andI'm sure we'll talk about some
some Austin Cleon, uh quotes atsome point but just the idea of
sharing your work, but whetheror not you choose to share it,
point, but just the idea ofsharing your work, but whether
or not you choose to share it.
You know, I've become a bigproponent for capturing video.
(35:18):
Um, you know, again, whether ornot you're going to post it or
share it, but man, that's,that's like game film.
I posted about this recently,but I was really thinking about,
like, all right, I was re, re,re editing a video that I'd done
and in preparation for a seriesthat I'm starting, where I had
experimented with a lot of newmaterial.
You know, like taking the, youknow the the burnt pallets and
dipping them in in in resin andtrying to figure out how it's
(35:40):
all going to going to work out.
And I'm not somebody who's like,my process is far from
scientific.
While I'm doing it, I'm notfreaking, taking notes and
measurements.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, but when you've got that,that game film, right, like you
know athletes, you know theywatch a lot of game film.
You know they watch back whatworked, what didn't.
(36:00):
Okay, let's do more of whatworked.
Hey, let's not do what whatdidn't work.
And what does it look like?
What does it feel like?
You know, in in in both, bothcamps.
But, you know, having thatavailable in addition to, of
course, the work and thejournals, but being able to
watch back and say, oh, okay,cool, because that for me, you
know, like, as I'm chasing downthose irresistible possibilities
that in many cases just sort of, like you know, occur in the
(36:23):
moment that I didn't haveplanned out I mean or or or
anticipated that's reallyvaluable, because I think that
that then lends itself to beingable to carry that forward into,
you know, future work, if youdo indeed want to try and you
know, replicate something thatactually, you know did indeed
work.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Well, we I mean, we have plenty of tools we can use
today to be our ownencyclopedias, right, as Austin
Cleon says, be a documentarianof what you do gather, gather,
gather, store, store, store andthen run it through a checklist
(37:00):
of um.
Is this worth sharing?
Is it not worth sharing?
Could it be worth sharing?
You know, and um, really, Ifilm for a lot of reasons.
You know, I'm kind of a uh, Idon't know how to word it uh, an
idiot dreamer, I guess.
In a way, it's like well, if Imake it someday and somebody
wants to make a documentary ofmy life, story and art, they're
going to have a ton of video tochoose from, you know, so, like,
I'm a big dreamer, though on alevel that I feel like I don't
(37:21):
know.
I mean, I was born a dreamer,I'm always dreaming things.
But I mean, deep inside, youknow, I want to be really great
at what I do, whether I'mrecognized or not.
Right, it's like I could be, weall could have that chance to
be recognized someday for whatwe create.
Um, a lot of us will, not veryfew of us will.
(37:42):
Man, I sure want to be thatwill, and so that just drives me
right, it drives me to createand to keep pushing, to keep
going, whether I'm recognized ornot, for myself right, for my
own sanity, for my ownconfidence, I'm going to drive
myself to the ground, working ashard as I can to try and be,
hopefully, that someday I don'tknow where I mean listen, we
(38:05):
don't know where we're going tofall.
We don't make the decisions ofthe art world right.
We're so far removed from thedecision makers that it's insane
.
But I do believe that if youwork your ass off and you
continually put time and effortinto growing and experimenting
and trying to find something inthere and you put it out to the
(38:27):
world and as many opportunitiesand ways that you can today,
there's a chance.
You're giving yourself a lotmore chance to be recognized or
be found if you're not puttingit out there to the world.
Yeah, you know, it's the.
In that conversation of thevideo, the interview we watched
with Leo Castelli, theinterviewer asked how did you
(38:49):
get into the Betty Parsonsgallery?
Yeah, right.
And he says oh, oh well, Iwalked in there with all my
heart and I said to hey, betty.
And she said I only look atwork on Tuesdays, or something
like that.
He goes well.
I'm here and she looked at hiswork.
Would you be willing to?
Speaker 2 (39:09):
pretend it's a Tuesday, right Right.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
So it's like you know that doesn't work today.
Don't do that.
Please don't do that.
Artists, if you're listening inthat, don't do that.
But the boldness, right, Likethat boldness of I'm going to
take my art to the people thatnotice art, Right, Right, we
have a lot of different ways wecan do that today, Intelligently
(39:33):
, not like the dumb artist I'msorry if I've just tabbed any of
you listening don't go into thegallery.
Don't go find the gallery ownerand tell them you're an artist
and ask if you can bring yourart in from your car.
Yeah, Um, unless they inviteyou to do that, Right, Um, and
and maybe we'll have an entireepisode just discussing those
things, um, down down the roadwith some with some good quotes
(39:57):
about how to how to actually dothat.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Well, I like that, though, as a, as a, as we kind
of wrap up and bring things intothe more you know, sort of
tangible takeaway, um, you knowcategory, just that.
I mean I'm just thinking aboutwhat we're doing right now, just
like we have no idea ifanyone's going to be interested
in.
I mean, as as of recording, wehave not posted a single episode
.
Yeah, we have no idea ifanyone's going to be interested
in this or if we're going to beable to, uh, whatever, if this
is going to go anywhere.
But it's worth trying.
We both enjoy havingconversations about art and are
(40:26):
willing to put it out there andjust kind of see what happens,
right?
So, um, I think thatirresistible possibility I mean,
if I were, I'll I'll turn itover to you in a moment for last
, last thoughts here, but Ithink if I had one, it would be
just, uh, just encouraging.
You know, anybody who's who'sgot a desire to do anything
creative like, keep chasing downthose irresistible
(40:47):
possibilities of of what youcan't, and don't be afraid, um,
you know, to try things thatthat may not ever work because,
as we've discussed this entireepisode, you just never know.
You know what's going to hit,what's going to kind of light
that fire or ignite the nextthing.
That could be the thing, right,even if the thing you're doing
at that moment, um, may not endup being quote, unquote it it's
(41:10):
gonna, it's, it's all, it's allpositive momentum, you know, in
the direction that you're tryingto go.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Well, yeah, and to piggyback on that, make your own
opportunities.
You can make your ownopportunities before
opportunities are created foryou.
Yeah, you know, do a house show.
You know I.
I did a house show here locallylast year with a group of
friends of mine.
Two incredible female artistsput on a house show of friends
of ours and they had emptied outthe house, had work in the
(41:39):
house, had work in the garage,set up a great area for people
to hang out in the middle inbetween.
It was just such a I mean, oh,I will do a house show any day
of the week.
There's nothing more enjoyablethan just hanging out with
people and talking about art ina non-pressure filled
environment where it's literallyjust focused on the art,
(42:01):
nothing else.
It's not focused on work,selling, not focusing on is the
press going to write a goodstory?
You know what I mean.
It's like just fun, you know,drinking wine, sitting outside,
talking about your work, talkingabout the other artists, work,
meeting people you don't knowfrom timing.
Create your own opportunities.
You can.
You know I, you know I say thisall the time to everybody like
(42:25):
show, work, show, work, show,work, show, work, show, work.
Doesn't matter where it is Caferestaurant gallery.
One of my One of my formermentees had her first solo show
in Germany and she approached arestaurant hey, can I do a show?
They said yes and she had asolo show.
It doesn't matter if it's at arestaurant, it doesn't matter
(42:46):
where it is it's a show.
A show is a show is a show.
Fill that resume out your own,your own opportunities.
Do something fun.
Go set up work at a park andinvite all your friends and do
an outdoor show to park like.
Create your opportunities.
You can.
You can do it yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
And then back to what we said before too right,
there's never been a better time, you know.
There's never been fewer, youknow, sticking points or
gatekeepers to like we didn'thave to ask anybody's permission
to start making a podcast.
We don't again.
I have no idea if anyone'sgoing to be interested in
listening to it or watching it,but nothing prevented us from
trying and starting it, and justyou and I do this.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Yeah, we do this on a regular basis anyways on the
phone, so it's like or by textmessage hey, did you see this
quote?
Hey, we watched this interview,so why not just talk about it
and see if anybody else isinterested?
That's it.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
That's it.
Um, that's awesome.
I think that.
Uh, that wraps it up for me,Unless you have anything else
you want to close out with.
Nope Go make smart Love it.
See y'all next time.
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