August 8, 2024 • 53 mins
Ever wondered what it truly means to be a perpetual student in the world of art, or more simply put, an Art Nerd? We're pulling back the curtain on the relentless pursuit of knowledge that fuels creativity. Join us as we share our personal stories of embracing the titles of "nerd" and "elitist" with pride, and reveal why there is a heavy responsibility on an artist of continuous self-education. We also reflect on wisdom from Winston Churchill, Gandhii, Haruki Murakami and others about the real journey of learning, urging you to never stop seeking new information and diversifying your avenue's.
Curiosity is the lifeblood of any artist, and this episode celebrates that insatiable hunger for knowledge. From the childlike wonder of exploring vintage bookstores for hidden gems to diving into the lives of influential artists like Joan Miró, we discuss how maintaining a curious mindset can lead to profound artistic discoveries. We also highlight the importance of asking questions and engaging with more knowledgeable individuals, reinforcing that the quest for knowledge is endless and ever-rewarding.
Finally, we delve into how diverse influences shape creative expression and why it's crucial to expand your horizons beyond the conventional. Learn from the past and discover the transformative power of blending different cultural and artistic elements. We share practical advice on networking, researching, and maximizing artistic growth through various mediums, emphasizing the necessity of being a lifelong learner. Whether it's through unconventional sources or engaging with the art community, this episode is packed with insights to help you grow as an artist and creative thinker.
Send us a message - we would love to hear from you!
Make sure to follow us on Instagram here:
@justmakeartpodcast @tynathanclark @nathanterborg
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
All right, ty, we're going to do something a little
bit different for today'sepisode.
We did this a little bit inseason one, where we sort of
drilled in on a topicspecifically, but we haven't
done it recently.
We actually got a couple offollow-up questions from people
from previous episodes where wereferenced this idea of being a
(00:28):
student of the game, and sotoday we're just going to really
dissect what do we mean by that, what does it look like and how
do we apply that as artists, ascreatives, in our daily
practice.
So I thought we'd start offjust by throwing out our
personal definitions of whatdoes it mean.
So that's what we're going tocover today is the.
(00:49):
What does it mean to be astudent of the game?
Why is being a student of thegame so important as an artist,
as a creative?
And then, how do we do it?
Some more tactical applicationor ideas on how we might apply
that in our day-to-day.
So let's just start by definingeach of us individually what
does it mean to be a student ofthe game?
I'll go ahead and take firstcrack here.
(01:11):
For me, when I think of thatidea of being a student of the
game, I think about obsessivelyseeking out and applying new
information from as many sourcesas possible.
That's kind of my first crackat that definition.
So, to be a student of the game, it's somebody who's
obsessively seeking out andapplying new information from as
(01:32):
many sources as possible.
What's yours?
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yeah, I think there's two things for me.
Number one would be a completeand total nerd.
Yeah, absolute, most amazingway.
Like a complete and total nerd.
Yeah, absolute, most amazingway, like a complete and total
nerd.
So I will tell people I am anart history nerd.
I have no reservations aboutsaying that at all.
It's a word I absolutely lovethe word nerd.
I think it's a beautiful word.
(01:57):
I absolutely love it.
And the second would probablybe that I would like to say that
I'm a self-proclaimed eitherhistorian critic, and I can't
think of the other word I wasgoing to use, just overall
badass.
Just an overall badass?
Yeah, no, I think.
(02:18):
Oh, a self-proclaimed.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
As we continue to push the limits of what actually
qualifies us as explicit.
We've acquired that labelbefore.
I think some of the BSreferences.
We'll see what they do with badass.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, I think like 10 or more BSs or 10 or more cuss
words, and then you're kind oflabeled explicit but I was going
to say a self-proclaimedelitist.
So there are times I will say,oh, I'm a self-proclaimed
(02:52):
musical elitist or art elitebecause I like what I like and I
love what I love, and you can'ttell me I don't like or love it
.
But I think, as far as thisstudent of the game, 100% I'm a
self-professed art history nerd.
I cannot get enough, I cannotstop and I want more, more, more
, more all the time.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, yeah Well, I want to talk about this at some
point, so let's just break theseal right now.
That whole idea of self fill inthe blank with anything.
I was thinking a lot aboutbeing self-taught, which I am
completely self-taught.
I didn't get any formaleducation surprising nobody
who's seen what I do.
(03:20):
But I think when you're going toclaim to be self-taught,
there's a responsibility there.
I mean that's what you'repaying for.
When you're going to claim tobe self-taught, there's a
responsibility there.
I mean that's what you'repaying for.
When you get a proper educationthat is given to you by an
institution or individual who is, you know, identifying as a
teacher, as a-taught, there's aresponsibility there to do that,
to teach yourself and to go out, and I wouldn't say necessarily
(03:49):
teach yourself, right, but togo out and find teachers.
And we're going to talk aboutthat a lot as the episode kind
of goes on.
But I think that that's reallya responsibility Whether you've
got a formal education in,whatever you're doing or not,
there's a responsibility for usto take ownership of that
continuing self-education.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, I honestly, not just in art but in life I just
think continuing to self-educateis vital.
It's so important and I knowwhere you have some quotes that
are going to kind of talk aboutthis later but, as artists,
being able to take that one stepfurther and go after those
avenues, search for thoseavenues, find those things, to
(04:27):
continue to feed yourselfknowledge, which then in turn
becomes wisdom.
You take all that informationin.
That's acquiring knowledge.
As that information settlesover time and comes out now it
becomes wisdom because you'velearned and you've grown and
you've evolved as an artist, asa human being, through that.
One of my favorite quotes thatI've ever read is by Winston
(04:48):
Churchill and it says I began myeducation at a very young age,
in fact right after I leftcollege.
It makes me kind of question dowe really study in school?
Do we really study?
(05:08):
Because usually when you're inschool and I'm talking about
college or art school orwhatever you're kind of going
through the motions and enjoyinglife.
You're doing a whole lot ofother things at that time while
you're studying and learning,and it's I wouldn't even call it
true study For me.
I just went through the motions,I made stuff when it came to
(05:29):
art history class, I kind of hadmy ears half open.
But I was thinking about what Iwas going to make in ceramics
or I was going to make when I'mpouring bronze and you know, in
postmodern sculpture class.
Whatever those things were onmy mind, it wasn't these artists
and their stories and how theydid it and what they did and all
those things.
And so when I read that quoteby Churchill, I went, oh my gosh
(05:49):
, that is so right.
Until this became real for me,I didn't really start digging in
and trying to acquire fromevery single source that I could
find.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
seeing, just seeing the different classes.
I mean, I was not the person, Icertainly wasn't the dad that
you wanted on your tour, if, if,for the poor kids that were
given this, because I was like,oh hold on, let me, let me you
(06:30):
know what, what have they gotfor tools back there, what you
know?
But just thinking about that toyour point, compared to how I
was, you know, when I was in,when I was in school, and just
sort of checking the box to thegrade and get the credits and
get the heck out of there, soyeah, I think there's a
different type of energy andintensity that one puts into
studying, when you're actuallyapplying it in real time and see
(06:53):
how you're going to be using itin whatever it is that you're
trying to do.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
I mean, the importance of that is just
insane.
And I think I was veryfortunate that I grew up in a
family where art was a part ofthe family, because my mom's
oldest brother was aworld-renowned sculptor and Raku
artist.
He'd shown all over the world,he had an ongoing practice but
also was the dean of an artprogram in Santa Barbara at UCSB
(07:20):
, and so it was a part of thefamily and my mom's grandparents
were huge in art.
So my grandfather was alwaysshowing me books and walking me
through things and literatureand poetry and art and they had,
you know, gauguin prints andhe'd have a Gauguin print next
to a Van Gogh print, framed andup, you know, above in the main
(07:40):
room by the dinner table.
And I knew about theirfriendship and I knew how they
pushed each other.
I knew those stories as a youngage.
They didn't hit me until lateron in life but I had that
knowledge inside me and I havestacks of his I even have them
here stacks of his art booksfrom his library, just these
huge books that you know what Imean.
(08:01):
Yeah, those big coffee tablebooks I've just got.
I've like 10 of them that hegave me and some that I got,
after he had passed from hisbookshelf, that I'd sit on his
lap and he'd show me these booksand we'd look through all these
famous paintings, and so thisknowledge continued to just fill
me as a child and as I grewolder, those interests were
(08:21):
always there and stayed there.
But honestly, nathan, I justtalked about not paying
attention to art school.
I knew stuff and I kind of wentoh yeah, I know that my grandpa
taught me about that stuff inart history class so it just
kind of went in and out the yearbut I didn't really know.
And it wasn't until 2014, when Iwent full-time in art, I really
realized that absoluteimportance of gathering as much
(08:46):
as I can and how much it wasgoing to impact, and then
impacted my practice 100%.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, I didn't have any artists in the family, but I
was certainly very fortunatethat my parents had two really
close friends who werepracticing artists, both of whom
gave me lessons.
I don't really remember howlong, but shout out to doug
wessendorp and julie smith, who,at different times when I was
quite young I mean, I feel likeI started with doug when I was
(09:14):
gosh, maybe just five or sixyears old and my parents saw
that I just really loved, youknow, drawing and all things
related to art, and I remembervividly he just'd just take me
out in the woods and say let'sdo you know, let's draw, let's
expose me to different materials.
And so, just from a young age,just that idea of you know
learning by doing, but havingthose influences was absolutely
(09:36):
tremendous and I'm sure you know, planted the seeds for you know
, whatever it's become sincethen.
What else you got for us in thequote department?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, there's a quote by Gandhi that I absolutely
love and he says live as if youwere to die tomorrow.
Learn as if you were to liveforever.
That is quintessential toacquiring knowledge over a
lifetime.
Right, he's saying doeverything you can do today,
(10:10):
because you don't know whattomorrow is going to hold.
Right, live as if you were todie tomorrow.
But I love that he packagesthat living live for everything
with learn as if you were goingto live forever.
Do not stop, keep learning,keep acquiring, keep going after
things.
And you know that that includesa lot of different things in
(10:32):
that right, in that learning asif you're going to live forever.
But as an artist to me, that'sif I transfer that to me
thinking as an artist, it is doeverything, experience
everything, look at everything,read everything, find everything
, watch everything, everything Ican, as if I've got this
eternal plane to just keep goingon as an artist, acquiring,
(10:56):
acquiring, acquiring, acquiring.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
The best way to stagnate at anything is to get
that fixed mindset of oh, I haveall the information I need to
stay the course.
And I think that it does becomemore challenging as we age
where you know we get to a pointwhere it's like I don't
probably need to reevaluate theway that I tie my shoes or gas
(11:19):
up my vehicle.
I mean, there are certainlysome you know basic things that
we can do on autopilot, but whenit comes to being in the game
that we're playing of you know,creativity and art and pushing
our own work to make the bestwork that we're capable of in
our lifetime, there's never timeto stop acquiring, you know,
new information.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Absolutely, and I think that piggybacks great with
this Thomas Kuhn quote thatsays the answers you get depend
on the questions you ask.
Yeah, and I truly believe thatif you're not acquiring
knowledge and self-educatingyourself, you're going to have
very, very few questions to ask,which means you're going to
(11:58):
have very few answers to rely onas an artist, and I think I
really took that to heart yearsago.
I believe I read that in Art andFear, maybe 10 years ago, and
that's when I went I need tostep up my game, because I have
all these questions about makingand being as an artist that I
(12:21):
cannot find answers for anywherebecause artists don't like to
talk about them Most times.
The art world doesn't talk aboutthose things a lot of times,
and even when I was askingquestions to individuals, they
weren't really giving me fullanswers, and so I went well, why
don't I start studying allthese artists that I love over
(12:42):
time and reading about them andreading their stories?
All of a sudden, I startedgetting all these answers.
You know, like when I read JoeMiro's book and Joe Miro's
journals.
Oh, my gosh, all thesequestions I had for years, um,
joe Miro was all of a suddengiving me the answers to as a
young artist in his 20s in Spain, and it was so.
(13:04):
It's like, oh, just so muchstuff started coming to me once
I started going to books andgoing to these things to try and
acquire answers to all thesequestions I have.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
And it all starts with curiosity.
Yeah, I don't think that I haveany natural gifts, apart from
just an absolute superpower foran insane level of curiosity
about everything, and sometimesthat can absolutely be
distracting and that can be ahindrance to actually getting
things done and executing.
(13:36):
But I think that as I've agedand hopefully matured just a
little bit, identifying you knowwhich of those curiosities to
chase and do something with andwhich ones to sort of set aside.
But all questions start fromthat place of hmm, I wonder, I
just wonder you know what woulddot dot dot fill in the blank?
You know what comes from there,but it all begins from that
(13:58):
place, I mean, because there'sno question to ask if there's
not something that we arecurious about.
That is the well from which thequestions flow and, of course,
to your point, that's whatproduces answers that can then
push us forward and move thingsalong.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, and that goes into something we talked about
recently, right, actually, youtalked about it in the episode
with Jeremy Cowart where youtalked about just that childlike
wonder, yeah, and just that,that curiosity of children and
you know, no pressure and justcreating.
But what's one thing thatchildren do better than anything
?
They ask a ton of questions,right, some of the best film
(14:36):
moments in comedies are the kidsasking questions and questions
and questions and questionsRight To the adult and it just
becomes.
I mean, there's been TV showsthat have been designed on kids
asking questions, right,comedies and things.
So it's like having thatchildlike wonder as an adult.
That enthusiasm to learn, thatenthusiasm to ask, I think for
(14:58):
an artist is extremely,extremely powerful because
you're going to go searching.
If you're not going searching,you're going to kind of stall
out at some point and thenthings are going to get really
hard because they're going to behard already.
But that total search, I liketo think of it sometimes.
As you know, I love vintagebookstores.
I've talked about this before.
(15:18):
It's one of my favorite things.
Anytime I travel, I look upvintage bookstores and I go
visit them and I search for artbooks.
For me, the search and the huntfor books rather than ordering
them on Amazon sometimes is partof this whole process for me of
learning, and so if there's acertain book I want, I'll put it
(15:39):
to my list of my search and myhunt.
And I find it in these vintagebookstores and for me it brings
even more of a spark of wantingto read it because I waited and
I searched and I found it.
Rather than the instantgratification of buying it on
Amazon it just comes because inart we don't get instant
gratification that often.
Usually it's a very longprocess.
(15:59):
Because in art we don't getinstant gratification that often
.
Usually it's a very longprocess.
It's a long, long road ofworking and trying things until
you hit that moment and thenit's so beautiful because all
the hard work you put in.
So that's just something I loveto do.
That creates even more of a fun, exciting part of learning for
(16:20):
me, even though I love itanyways.
It just adds a little somethingelse exciting part of learning
for me, even though.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I love it anyways.
It just adds a little somethingelse when you bring up the
childlike wonder and curiositythat we all have, you know, when
we're kids.
That made me think of somethingI was just noodling on the idea
of what prevents us fromcontinuing to ask a lot of
questions as we age, and I thinkit's mostly just fear of
(16:43):
looking dumb, feeling as thoughwe're supposed to have the
answer to the question thatwe're asking.
And there is something to besaid for fake it until you make
it.
But when you're in the presenceor when you have access to
people that have an answer orcertainly a better answer that
is informed by more experienceLike, why not ask?
(17:05):
So there is confidence.
It's an interesting thing.
I think it does require a levelof confidence to be okay with
maybe looking a little dumb ormaybe looking a little silly in
the moment, but at the endyou're going to have more
information than you had beforeand I think that, generally
speaking, people that haveknowledge especially when you're
with them in person they'rehappy to share it.
(17:27):
They're excited to share.
It's fun to share what you'velearned and to help other people
learn.
That's just an enjoyable thingto be on either end of that
equation.
No-transcript, not an expert,never claimed to be, never want
(18:11):
to be.
I'm an amateur, you know, forlife and you're like I kind of
am.
So you know asking questions,looking for more information and
trying to increase you knowwhat we can, what we can
contribute.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
You know, with that as well, absolutely, and I'm
such a nerd with it that I takeit to practice.
And I'm sure at times inmuseums I'm quite annoying
because sometimes the museumattendants love to talk to me
because I go in and I ask themquestions about the work that
they're standing in front of dayafter day after day and testing
their knowledge, because someabsolutely love the art and
(18:48):
they're there because they lovethe art so much and so, man,
I've had some conversations withsome 70 and 80-year-old
retirees, men and women atmuseums who know everything
about the exhibition and we justgo back and forth about the
artists and what they're doingand the timelines and those
things.
Then there are others that arejust kind of like, really, oh my
gosh, get away from me.
(19:08):
And I do it also with museumpeople that are just standing
there, random museum goersstanding in front of work and
talking about it, and I maypractice my own knowledge.
Go, hey, you want to learn alittle more about this piece and
maybe why the room is curatedthe way it is.
And sometimes I had people thatgo, oh, I'd love to.
And then another time, peopleyou know kind of get away from
me, look.
So we can also be annoying withour knowledge at times too, but
(19:30):
it's true.
Hey, I love art so much that Ijust want to talk about it all
the time, which I'm sure isannoying for some people as well
.
But you know what People get totalk about their lives and the
things they do at dinner all thetime and their jobs and what
they're doing and theirpromotions and these things.
I'm an artist.
That's what I have to talkabout is art.
So, while you guys talk aboutyour law firms and all these
things at dinner, I'm going totalk about being an artist and
(19:52):
the art that I love and thebooks I've read.
So sorry if you're at dinnerwith me, because that's what
you're going to get.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Well, we've already blown up our outline, but that's
okay.
We're kind of into part two,which was kind of us making the
pitch for why being a student ofthe game is so important.
I think we and your learningcurve than doing what we're
talking about right To seekingout new information.
(20:32):
I think about it a lot as justgathering seeds and picking up
new little seeds, little ideas,little things that just kind of
get planted along the way.
Little seeds, little ideas,little things that just kind of
get planted along the way.
And when I'm doing it right andby right I mean in a way that
works for me, I don't have anyreal concern for is there going
(20:52):
to be a harvest or when is thatharvest going to be?
I see this quote in the mix.
I'll share it now.
Robert Louis Stevenson saiddon't judge each day by the
harvest you reap, but by theseeds that you plant.
That, to me, requires patienceand that's going to be something
completely different.
Waiting for when the harvest,all of those things are somewhat
(21:13):
known.
It's a different kind of seed.
It's the kind where we justdon't know when it's going to
come to harvest or how it'sgoing to be useful.
(21:54):
But we just have to trust thatenough of them are going to grow
and are going to be able to beharvested in some way at some
point down the road.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Absolutely.
I mean, that's part of this.
That's why I love my one of mymentors.
Makoto Fujimura, japaneseAmerican abstract artist, always
uses the correlation ofgardening with art making,
always.
It's just there's no closercorrelation to anything than
gardening with art making.
(22:26):
It's just they go hand in hand.
And so from planting seeds toinvesting time and care to
nurture what you planted andthen to watch those things
sprout and like sometimes theydon't bloom, sometimes they
sprout and then they die and thenext one comes in, the next one
comes in.
But you have to constantly bere-harvesting that.
(22:47):
You have to constantly bereplanting seeds and nurturing
and doing those things.
And I think if you want thatfully tending garden, that fully
bloomed garden, like some ofthose beautiful gardens in
Europe that have taken 50, 60,100, 120, 200 years to just
continually bloom and be caredfor, and they're insane mazes of
(23:08):
gardens and flowers and I meanit's just absolutely fabulous
and I think those do you wantthe little teeny potted plants
on your porch or do you want oneof those blooming gardens in
your art practice?
And that kind of goes hand inhand with what you're going to
put in and what's going to comeout of it over time.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
I think it's probably a product of being a certain
age when the first Karate Kidcame out, but I became obsessed
with bonsai this age.
What age?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Like my Ferris Bueller shirt age 100%.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yeah, yeah, but I became completely I think that's
when that seed was planted theidea of like, oh, bonsai is
incredibly cool and someday andso I think I'm now on my third I
have successfully killed twothat I have bought.
(24:05):
I don't know, maybe it's justwhere I live up here, probably
this is everywhere, but everyonce in a while you see somebody
on the side of the road.
Well, no, no, you see somebodyon the side of the road just set
up in a parking lot sellingthem out of the back of the van.
But there's something aboutthat.
I bought books about it.
Whatever, at this point I'mjust like bonsai, curious.
It hurt me so bad when the mostrecent one, when it was clear
(24:32):
that I wasn't going tosuccessfully be able to continue
to keep this thing alive.
But the idea of something thatgrows and continuously gets
pruned very specifically overtime and deciding you know which
branches to nurture and whichones to remove, is just such a
such a beautiful, beautiful idea.
But that to me is sort of theyou know, if we, if we put it
(24:55):
into one, whatever thing, one,one plant, it would be that you
know in, in terms of thepractice overall, something that
develops gradually over time,certain things stay and become a
very meaningful branch of ourpractice and other things just
exist for a little while, stillserve the greater good for a
(25:16):
period of time and then getremoved or pruned or just don't
last.
But I just think abouteverything that we acquire along
the way.
It's purposeful, even if it'snot in the moment, because we
just never know.
I mean, I don't know about you,but I have moments all the time
in the studio I'm like, oh,this is like that other thing,
or this is like that one thingthat I saw, or that one.
(25:38):
I mean fill in the blank.
I wonder if I could apply thatidea.
That was meant for somethingelse, you know here, and the
answer is almost always yes, orit leads to a glorious mistake
and failure.
That still contributes to theoverall learning and progression
.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Absolutely, and just for a frame of Karate Kid
reference.
Saw the movie in the theaterwith my I believe it was my mom
and dad it might've just been mymom, so we used to go to movies
all the time together saw it inthe theater and then, I believe
it was the next day, I wentstraight to the library to check
out bonsai tree books.
Did you Cause I?
had to learn about them.
I had to know more about this,you know, and that was the first
(26:18):
time I'd ever heard aboutbonsai trees.
At that point in time too,right.
But anyways.
I want to read this quote byHaruki Murakami that says if you
only read the books thateveryone else is reading, you
can only think what everyoneelse is thinking.
I love that idea of goingoutside the box and just not
(26:42):
reading Rick Rubin's new book orreading the one that
everybody's reading right now.
Extend that collection.
I think it was a CS Lewis quotethat said for every new book
you read, read two old books, orread two classics.
It's something along that line.
But it's like, for every newbook you read, read something
(27:02):
old as well.
Because there's so much lifebefore right now, why just read
the new things, the new ideas?
There's a whole lot to learnfrom for centuries before us,
and so my books are new and old,and I've been reading a lot of
(27:23):
old books lately because they'reartists' lives when things were
different and things wereharder than they were now.
So if I can take some thingsfrom Jomiro and take some things
from Mogdiliani and take somethings from some older artists
from way back ideas and thatgrit and determination they had
to do things and make things inways that are 5 million times
(27:44):
more difficult to do.
If I can instill some of thatmindset into my practice today.
I know it's going to help me.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah, thinking about how much closer you can get to
the source of the original.
I'm using air quotes here forthe people that aren't watching
us on YouTube, which, by the way, if you're just listening, you
can watch us on YouTube.
All right, there, check.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
You can watch us on Spotify as well now.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Oh yeah, that's right .
What was I using air quotesabout?
That's why I don't do that.
That's why I don't pretend that.
Make a little side quest.
Yeah, son of a, I literallydon't remember.
Yeah, I think the core idea wasthe closer we can get to the
source of the thing.
I can't attribute this quote, Idon't know where it came from,
but the idea is just that,rather than whether it's art or
(28:33):
literature, rather than beinginfluenced by the latest,
greatest iteration of that, beinfluenced by what they were
influenced by.
How far back, how much closerto the original that's what I
was using air quotes about.
However, however much closer wecan get to the original idea or
the original practitioner of anidea that just speaks to the
(28:55):
value of of, not just, not justinputting.
You know the newest, shiniestthing.
That reminds me of another quote, ty, by Douglas Adams, and he
said human beings, who arealmost unique in having the
ability to learn from theexperience of others, are also
remarkable for their apparentdisinclination to do so, which
(29:17):
is hilarious because of how trueit is.
You think about how muchinformation, how much experience
of other people is out thereand just available for us to
learn from.
But let me pose that as aquestion A do you agree with
that?
And B if so, why do you thinkit is that we have a tendency to
(29:39):
not learn from others.
To the extent that we probablycould Question one was do you
agree with that quote?
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yeah, I absolutely do , because I see it all the time.
I think there are multiplethings here because culturally,
socioeconomically, there are alot of things that can go into
that quote when you grew up,where you're from, your
socionomic level, your educationlevel, your access to education
(30:09):
and, for me, all those thingswhere I can kind of go into this
.
But I think a lot of times it'stime you have to spend a lot of
time to learn and grow andlearn from the experience of
others.
You also have to listen and youhave to be present in order to
do so.
And I think in today, in moderntime, contemporary culture,
today, there's so much noise andthere's so much busyness and
(30:32):
there's so many things todistract us from actually being
present and paying attention andlearning from others that too
many people just kind of go withthe flow and follow the sheep
and herd and that's dangerous.
Historically we know that'sdangerous and I think it's just
difficult.
I think it's just a tough thingto do and so I think a lot of
(30:54):
that is just the time involvedto do that and being present and
not distracted by life, and aswe get older it gets really hard
to not be distracted by life.
I think about that all the time, about all the things and doing
this and filling in thechecking the boxes and doing
this thing and making sure I getthat done, that.
Sometimes it's really hard tojust be totally present.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Especially when you already know enough to do the
thing the way you've always doneit at least Right, absolutely.
Do the thing the way you'vealways done it at least right,
absolutely.
I mean I think about the.
That was part of my.
My definition of being astudent of the game is just
diversifying your influencesfrom as many different sources
as possible, maximizing ourinputs.
(31:37):
I've shared this quote before umon a earlier episode, I think
in our first season, but this isa quote by Paul Schrader, the
writer and director, but I loveit so much I'm going to share it
again.
That's the secret of creativityyou have to steal around.
If you keep going back to thesame 7-Eleven, they're going to
catch you.
So you go over to the floralshop, the gas station that
(31:59):
nobody ever goes to, you stealall this shit and you put it
together and people say, wow,they think it's yours.
I love that quote for a lot ofreasons, but I think that just
that last part right, like wow,they think it's yours because it
is, it is yours.
Once you have diversified, onceyou pulled seemingly disparate
ideas, ways of doing things andput them together in a novel way
(32:23):
, you have created somethingthat hasn't been created before
Because you're takingingredients from so many
different places.
It's going to look different,it's going to be unique, it's
going to be authentic to yourpersonal voice, setting aside
for the moment, the idea ofsomething that's never been done
before complete originality.
(32:43):
You wouldn't look at at tradersmovies and say, oh they, they
completely redefined.
You know cinema from the groundup, but they're absolutely
unique to his voice and hisvision because of the diversity
the diversity, um, of where he'sstealing those ideas from.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Well, I think one of the best examples of this that
you can use is DJs, andparticularly the origin of hip
hop.
Djs from DJ Kool Herc andGrandmaster Flash, I mean
African Bambaataa Kid K, allthese old school guys.
And DJ Spooky says you're onlyas good as your record
collection.
Yeah, but you have to thinkabout the fact that a great DJ's
(33:29):
record collection is moreeclectic than the next DJ's
record collection, because ifthey were all spinning the same
records, it's all going to soundthe same same records.
It's all going to sound thesame.
And you look at some of theguys that innovated in hip hop
as DJs, as disc jockeys,spinners.
They're taking old stuff, newstuff, they're mixing it
(33:51):
together.
They're taking classical musicand golden oldies and blues and
they're creating something newthat is theirs out of somebody
else's sounds.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
As opposed to just pulling from what's popular at
the moment and trying to dotheir version of that.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Hip hop is a perfect example of that.
We were out in Ohio last month.
We were in the Cleveland areafor a softball tournament, but I
took my daughter to the rockand roll hall of fame and if you
haven't seen their, their,their hip-hop exhibit is
phenomenal because it doesexactly that.
It starts at the very, the verybeginning, the very roots, and
(34:35):
you can see, especially if youhave even even uh, passing
knowledge of of that genre andof those artists, you can see
the through line, what startedhere and how they then took this
here and artist B took it hereand artist C took it, and it's.
It's fascinating to think, butit's funny how often our
conversations come back to musicand musicians.
But I've always been interestedin reading, you know, back in
(34:58):
the back in the day when Isubscribed to what were all the
spin Rolling Stone, readingabout the artists.
But it always caught myattention when asked who are
your biggest influences, howoften it's from a completely
different genre, how often it'slike, oh, I never would have
(35:20):
thought.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Almost always.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Almost always that they'd be influenced by
something that is completelyover here.
And then you think about it,you listen back.
Maybe you weren't educatedabout that particular you know
artist or or Johnny in it.
Oh, there is a little bit there, and there's a little bit of
that and there's a little bit,but they put it together in this
in this unique and novel way,and made it their own.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Well, and I think Jimmy Page is a great example of
that I think he talks about inthe documentary.
It might get loud with JackBlack and the Edge.
He listened to classical music.
Barbershop quartets, old schoolstuff that he grew up on is
where his passion was.
But then he played and I guessthey would say we were not rock
(36:04):
and roll, we weren't progressiverock, we were more jazz fusion,
more than anything, justbecause of their time,
signatures and things that theyplayed.
But his influence was not rockand roll.
He's one of the greatestconsidered, if not the greatest,
one of the greatest rockguitarists of all time and he
didn't even listen to the musicthey played.
So great example.
(36:30):
Well, nathan, how in the worlddo artists do this?
Like?
What are ways for artists todeepen their knowledge, to feed
into a world and a historicworld that goes on for centuries
?
What are ways that they canattain this knowledge and bring
things in and attain wisdom thathelps their practice?
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Well, let me kick out .
That's a great question.
We'll close out by giving sometactical ideas on how to do this
.
I think I want to throw atleast one more quote in the mix
here, mark Twain said this is agreat one.
The person who does not read hasno advantage over the person
who cannot read.
The person who does not readhas no advantage over the person
who cannot read.
The person who does not readhas no advantage over the person
(37:08):
who cannot read.
In other words, if we are not,and replace read with listen,
watch, whatever input or inputswork best for you, but if we're
not doing that thing, it's thesame as not being able to.
If we're not actively reading,it's the same as being
illiterate, which I don't knowabout you, but I can't imagine
(37:29):
anybody actually activelychoosing but you are effectively
illiterate if you are notreading and absorbing and
consuming new ideas and oldideas consistently.
So, tactically, I think thatdiversity is the name of the
game.
I'm just going to list off someways, and most of these are
super, super obvious.
(37:50):
But there's probably at leastone on this list that our
listener you, dear listener,whose ears we are in right now,
may or may not be doingcurrently.
So I'm just going to rattlethese off time.
You can pick up wherever you'dlike, but I think so let's just
start with reading the obviousones.
So, whether that be books aboutthe art world, biographies,
(38:11):
journals, autobiographies,history, watching art,
documentaries, listening toaudio books.
I'm a listener, I do like toread and I always buy the
physical copy so that I canespecially if it's a book that
really resonates with me.
I'll then go back and read it,which I'm then able to get
through a lot quickly because Ialready have listened to
highlight, make my marks andmake my notes and then translate
(38:33):
different ideas into journals.
But audio books are fantasticand since Spotify added, I mean
there's a veritable library onSpotify.
If that's something that yousubscribe to that you can get
for free.
Listening to podcasts I mean welisten to a ton of different
podcasts in the art space andoutside the art space, partially
(38:56):
just to get ideas on how to bebetter at what we're doing and
get ideas about how we canimprove.
You know what we're doing.
That's a great one.
This is one.
You know following people onsocial media and that kind of
thing who give valuableinformation.
You know there's some reallygreat follows and we can maybe
list them off in a differentepisode or right now if you got
(39:16):
some top of mind.
But just, you know followingpeople.
And then you know DMing andreaching out.
You know I I love it when I,when I come across a new
technique, a new idea, just anartist that I really dig, just
DMing, saying, hey, I really digyour work, you know, like I
really I really love what you'redoing and let that be that and
maybe that starts a conversationthat you know leads somewhere.
Just a new, a new connection toyou know, be able to comment or
(39:41):
receive different ideas at somepoint down the future.
But a few of those have actuallyQuite a few, as a matter of
fact, have developed into realconnections where we can
communicate about art and whatwe're up to.
Showing up is a huge one Goingto openings, going to events,
right, rubbing elbowsface-to-face, sharing oxygen
with people that are doing thethings that, that, uh, that
(40:04):
you're doing in the same world,that you're trying to be a part
of networking.
We've talked about that onebefore, but that's absolutely
critical.
Just, you know, making thoseconnections.
And then this is something thatwe've heard from you many, many
times before and we'll againbut just looking at a ton of art
.
That was the list that I kindof put together.
What did I miss?
Or which of those do you wantto unpack and talk more?
Speaker 2 (40:26):
about, if any you know on the looking at art.
Why go look at art?
Because it piques your interestin learning more about that
artist.
Number one it teaches you aboutyour own work.
When you get back to yourstudio and you're looking at
work and you've been looking atothers' work it teaches you.
But one of the things that I doin my mentorship program is
probably one of the favoritethings that I do outside of our
(40:49):
calls and the time I spend withthe mentees is I create a
research document artists fromcontemporary culture to art
history that is based on theartist's work.
So your personal work, whatyour work looks like, what feels
(41:10):
on the art timeline it has.
Does it have someneo-expression or some
minimalism?
Is there a little bit of favismor what is it in this artist's
work?
And I put together a list basedon artists in history and in
contemporary culture who havework and similar ideas.
It may not be exactly workideas, it may be thought process
and philosophy ideas in thework.
(41:32):
And then I also take a listfrom the artists on work they
love.
What do they love?
If they could take a techniquefrom anybody, who would they
take it from?
And I take all these ideas andI create a list of probably
depends on the arts between 50to 200 artists over time and I
also give them a list of genresand movements and art that fits
(41:56):
with their work and thenarrative in their work, so that
they have something to spend anenormous amount of time looking
at and researching and goingdown rabbit holes, because at
the end of the day, this is a100% Neo from the matrix thing
of following that rabbit holeright, going down that rabbit
hole and following it andfollowing it and following it
(42:17):
and following it.
And usually when an artiststarts researching art, they get
addicted and they want toresearch more because they see
how it impacts their practice.
Another part of this researchdocument is I do a YouTube
playlist based on that documenthas artists, studios, lectures,
(42:38):
certain movements, all kinds ofhistoric documentaries and
things in a YouTube playlistthat may be between 40 to 100
videos for them to even go intoa more visual route rather than
a reading and researching route.
But I would say, find ways to dothat on your own.
I mean, I do it regularly andthis is what I love about doing
it for my artists is I'll havean artist from the Middle East.
(43:00):
Well, I don't spend a lot oftime studying Middle Eastern art
, the history of Middle Easternart, or do I even get to go see
very much Middle Eastern art,and so I have to spend time
researching artists from thatartist's culture, from their
historic culture in the artmovement and contemporary
artists, and I've been able tofind artists from all over the
(43:21):
world in areas I've never eventhought about that have
influenced my work, and some ofthem I've been able to reach out
to and now talk work with onInstagram at times, and so for
me, that's just like wow, I justfound this artist from Ghana,
or somebody who's absolutelyinsane, that inspires me and
they're creating.
Now I follow them and askquestions how did you do this?
(43:45):
How did you sew this?
How did this work?
This work is incredible andtrying to build that network and
build those relationships, andI can't always go to places and
see the work, so that'ssomething for me that I love and
it's just really exciting forme to do.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
That's a big one.
And you talk about YouTube,youtube University.
Following the rabbit hole,youtube's search function or
algorithm in terms of what youmight like to watch next is
pretty damn.
Oh yeah, it's insane, it'sreally good.
So when you get on one littlething, it's going to do a pretty
good job of suggesting hey, youmight like this.
Hey, you know what YouTube Imight?
Thank you, let me give that atry.
(44:21):
I think, just in terms ofseeing other artists make work,
the Art21 videos are phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Phenomenal.
Louisiana channel Louisianachannel.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Those are great.
And you think about just seeingthose little mini documentaries
of artists working in theirstudio.
You see a tool, you see atechnique, you see something
like, ooh, what about that?
I get a lot of DMs or questionsabout, like somebody asked me
do you think you'll ever?
Would you ever teach classes?
And I'm like I wouldn't.
The answer is no.
I mean, I wouldn't even knowhow to begin to, because all I'm
(44:56):
doing is just trying all of thedifferent things that I'm
seeing on YouTube, most of whichhave nothing to do with art,
most of which are in the sort ofconstruction or manufacturing
space to think about.
Okay, how could I I'm alwaysthinking about how could I
misuse a technique and I saythat term somewhat tongue in
cheek but how could I take atechnique and repurpose it for
(45:17):
something completely different,that being art, and just see
what happens?
I've talked to about justwalking through the halls of
your the halls, the aisles therewe go, of your local hardware
store and home improvement,saying what could I do with this
?
And just going nuts, becausewhen you watch some of those
videos and you see the thingsthat some of these artists are
(45:39):
using, it's not the typicalmaterials that you're going to
find at your local art supplystore necessarily.
So just being a nerd back toour original point, probably a
good place to close.
But just being a nerd about howmuch can I learn, and not just
acquiring new information butthen thinking about how to apply
it, like that's probably whereI would, you know, plant my flag
(46:03):
and close out today.
But just, it's one thing toacquire new information and I
would argue that, just again,collecting a bunch of new seeds
has value for sure, because justhaving those seeds means that
they're probably plantedsomewhere in your subconscious.
You've got it in there.
However, there is another stepthat is more proactive.
(46:26):
It's more than it is passive,just like waiting for the seeds
to kind of grow on their own.
And the proactive portion ofthis becomes a matter of how do
I apply these, how do I takethis and actually do something
with it?
And have little sideexperiments going that nobody
sees, that may have nothing todo with the work that you're
trying to move forward, but justlittle side quests, little
(46:48):
experiments, because some ofthose will absolutely bear
tremendous fruit.
But you got to apply it, yougot to try to do something with
these ideas, whether they'retechnique related, or whether
they're more habits or the waywe think about the work.
All of those.
It's holistic right.
It's sort of that holisticapproach to how can we grow as
(47:11):
individuals and how can thosetechniques, those ideas, all of
that new information translateinto something that we apply.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
And there's no better time than now to start learning
again.
So for any of you out there whohave just put it to the curb or
haven't even thought about it,or thought about it and hadn't
started, there's no better timethan today to order a new book.
Go find a new book, add somenew audio books to your playlist
, get on there and search artbooks artist books on Spotify or
(47:43):
iTunes, whatever and startlistening.
Or on Netflix, do a searchartist on Netflix or Amazon,
prime, whatever and find artdocumentaries old ones, new ones
, gather as much.
And for those of you that aresaying, well, I just don't have
the money to go buy new books,well, you can order used books
on Amazon.
So there's a lot of books youcan find at $5, $6 that are used
(48:06):
.
Museums have incredible bookslibraries Most museums have
libraries within them, and soyou can go sit down in a museum
library and just pull books.
I used to do this all the timewhen I couldn't buy books.
I'd go to museums around me andI'd go sit in the library for
two or three hours and I wouldjust have books out and I'd take
(48:26):
pictures with my phone of workand pages and things, because I
couldn't go buy the book.
So there are plenty of waysthat you don't have to spend
money to buy things andlibraries still exist.
So there are libraries,probably in your city or your
town, where you can go check outbooks for a period of time and
(48:47):
read them.
I know that sounds very archaicand old, but they do exist and
you can actually go check out abook for a month and read a book
if you can't afford to buy onefor free.
So plenty of ways to do it.
There's no excuses.
And the reason we're doing thisbecause we want you to grow.
We want you to grow in yourwork and your practice, and we
know that attaining thatknowledge and growing your
(49:11):
knowledge becomes wisdom and itwill impact your work.
It will help your work.
Do a little bit of research, gosee some art, go read some
books, listen to audio books,watch some documentaries and
just fill that brain.
And what's going to happen isthe moment inspiration strikes
in the studio.
You are well prepared to go onlike the blazes with your work.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
That would have been a great place to close, but I
thought of one more thing.
Yes, it occurs to me that we'retalking a lot about thinking
about art and art technique, butone of the things that I think
is so invaluable about gettinginto the biographies, the
autobiographies, and hearingabout what it was actually like
for these legendary artistswhose names are engraved beneath
(49:55):
their pieces in the most whatam I trying to say?
All of these artists, theartists that hang in museums,
the ones whose names we wouldall know and aspire to, whatever
be like being an artist, can bereally lonely.
We can get stuck in our headsometimes.
(50:16):
I mean, there's a lot of.
It's an emotional process.
We're trying to put somethinginto our work, to make it
uniquely ours.
There's going to be a lot ofemotion around that, and so I
think that that sense that I getfrom reading about what it was
like for those artists when theywere making the work which is
oh, by the way, where we're atright now we are I don't mean to
(50:36):
say this, but we are in thetime where we are making the
work, and so hearing about whatit was like to make the work I
mean this comes up often.
I think that we referenced itmost recently in our Helen
Frankenthaler episode.
But just like even Helen, evena badass like Helen, who, if you
just saw the work, if you justread a couple of the most common
(50:58):
quotes, you'd think never dealtwith any fear and security
absolutely did.
I'm listening to Ninth StreetWomen right now in the studio
and just hearing about like, wow, the de Koonings didn't know
how they were going to.
Elaine had to have how manydifferent side jobs just to keep
things afloat, just to keep thelights on.
They had to move because theycouldn't afford.
(51:18):
And so here I am worried aboutwhatever little, whatever little
little thing that I'm, you knowpoor me about on that
particular day and you're like,oh, okay, it's, it's not just,
it's not just me, this is, thisis the path, this is, this is
kind of what we've chosen.
And so just understanding thatwhat we're feeling, what we're
thinking, the struggles that wehave, it's nothing new, it's
(51:38):
countless others that have comebefore us and everyone who's
doing what we're doing or aversion of it has and is walking
a similar path, which in and ofitself is incredibly
encouraging just to realize like, oh, this is just part of it,
it's not just me, this is justpart of it, and here we go.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
I'm going to close on your thing with something I
learned.
Speaker 1 (51:59):
No, you're not.
I'm going to close after youclose.
No, this is it.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
I'm going to close your close, I'm coming over the
top.
So, mentioning de Kooning, I'mcurrently reading de Kooning, an
American Master, which was aPulitzer Prize winning book, and
it's insane.
And today I read de Kooningsaid I always wondered why
Americans pronounce my name deKooning.
It's so funny because theactual proper way to say my name
(52:24):
is de Kooning.
That's the way you say it inDutch.
It's actually de Kooning.
But because the Americanscouldn't figure it out, because
there's two O's and said deKooning, he just went with it.
So I learned that this morningin my reading.
Anyways, for all the de Kooningfans out there, we'll see you
next time.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
I'm sorry.
Do people struggle with ClarkAll the?
Speaker 2 (52:46):
time.
Do you experience thatpersonally?
Speaker 1 (52:48):
Only if you're Scottish.
I love it.
Thanks for listening.
Join us next time for whateverwe decide to talk about then.
Have a great one.
Speaker 2 (52:57):
Freaking Deconing.
All right, ty, we're going to do something a little
bit different for today'sepisode.
We did this a little bit inseason one, where we sort of
drilled in on a topicspecifically, but we haven't
done it recently.
We actually got a couple offollow-up questions from people
from previous episodes where wereferenced this idea of being a
(00:28):
student of the game, and sotoday we're just going to really
dissect what do we mean by that, what does it look like and how
do we apply that as artists, ascreatives, in our daily
practice.
So I thought we'd start offjust by throwing out our
personal definitions of whatdoes it mean.
So that's what we're going tocover today is the.
(00:49):
What does it mean to be astudent of the game?
Why is being a student of thegame so important as an artist,
as a creative?
And then, how do we do it?
Some more tactical applicationor ideas on how we might apply
that in our day-to-day.
So let's just start by definingeach of us individually what
does it mean to be a student ofthe game?
I'll go ahead and take firstcrack here.
(01:11):
For me, when I think of thatidea of being a student of the
game, I think about obsessivelyseeking out and applying new
information from as many sourcesas possible.
That's kind of my first crackat that definition.
So, to be a student of the game, it's somebody who's
obsessively seeking out andapplying new information from as
(01:32):
many sources as possible.
What's yours?
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yeah, I think there's two things for me.
Number one would be a completeand total nerd.
Yeah, absolute, most amazingway.
Like a complete and total nerd.
Yeah, absolute, most amazingway, like a complete and total
nerd.
So I will tell people I am anart history nerd.
I have no reservations aboutsaying that at all.
It's a word I absolutely lovethe word nerd.
I think it's a beautiful word.
(01:57):
I absolutely love it.
And the second would probablybe that I would like to say that
I'm a self-proclaimed eitherhistorian critic, and I can't
think of the other word I wasgoing to use, just overall
badass.
Just an overall badass?
Yeah, no, I think.
(02:18):
Oh, a self-proclaimed.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
As we continue to push the limits of what actually
qualifies us as explicit.
We've acquired that labelbefore.
I think some of the BSreferences.
We'll see what they do with badass.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, I think like 10 or more BSs or 10 or more cuss
words, and then you're kind oflabeled explicit but I was going
to say a self-proclaimedelitist.
So there are times I will say,oh, I'm a self-proclaimed
(02:52):
musical elitist or art elitebecause I like what I like and I
love what I love, and you can'ttell me I don't like or love it
.
But I think, as far as thisstudent of the game, 100% I'm a
self-professed art history nerd.
I cannot get enough, I cannotstop and I want more, more, more
, more all the time.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, yeah Well, I want to talk about this at some
point, so let's just break theseal right now.
That whole idea of self fill inthe blank with anything.
I was thinking a lot aboutbeing self-taught, which I am
completely self-taught.
I didn't get any formaleducation surprising nobody
who's seen what I do.
(03:20):
But I think when you're going toclaim to be self-taught,
there's a responsibility there.
I mean that's what you'repaying for.
When you're going to claim tobe self-taught, there's a
responsibility there.
I mean that's what you'repaying for.
When you get a proper educationthat is given to you by an
institution or individual who is, you know, identifying as a
teacher, as a-taught, there's aresponsibility there to do that,
to teach yourself and to go out, and I wouldn't say necessarily
(03:49):
teach yourself, right, but togo out and find teachers.
And we're going to talk aboutthat a lot as the episode kind
of goes on.
But I think that that's reallya responsibility Whether you've
got a formal education in,whatever you're doing or not,
there's a responsibility for usto take ownership of that
continuing self-education.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, I honestly, not just in art but in life I just
think continuing to self-educateis vital.
It's so important and I knowwhere you have some quotes that
are going to kind of talk aboutthis later but, as artists,
being able to take that one stepfurther and go after those
avenues, search for thoseavenues, find those things, to
(04:27):
continue to feed yourselfknowledge, which then in turn
becomes wisdom.
You take all that informationin.
That's acquiring knowledge.
As that information settlesover time and comes out now it
becomes wisdom because you'velearned and you've grown and
you've evolved as an artist, asa human being, through that.
One of my favorite quotes thatI've ever read is by Winston
(04:48):
Churchill and it says I began myeducation at a very young age,
in fact right after I leftcollege.
It makes me kind of question dowe really study in school?
Do we really study?
(05:08):
Because usually when you're inschool and I'm talking about
college or art school orwhatever you're kind of going
through the motions and enjoyinglife.
You're doing a whole lot ofother things at that time while
you're studying and learning,and it's I wouldn't even call it
true study For me.
I just went through the motions,I made stuff when it came to
(05:29):
art history class, I kind of hadmy ears half open.
But I was thinking about what Iwas going to make in ceramics
or I was going to make when I'mpouring bronze and you know, in
postmodern sculpture class.
Whatever those things were onmy mind, it wasn't these artists
and their stories and how theydid it and what they did and all
those things.
And so when I read that quoteby Churchill, I went, oh my gosh
(05:49):
, that is so right.
Until this became real for me,I didn't really start digging in
and trying to acquire fromevery single source that I could
find.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
seeing, just seeing the different classes.
I mean, I was not the person, Icertainly wasn't the dad that
you wanted on your tour, if, if,for the poor kids that were
given this, because I was like,oh hold on, let me, let me you
(06:30):
know what, what have they gotfor tools back there, what you
know?
But just thinking about that toyour point, compared to how I
was, you know, when I was in,when I was in school, and just
sort of checking the box to thegrade and get the credits and
get the heck out of there, soyeah, I think there's a
different type of energy andintensity that one puts into
studying, when you're actuallyapplying it in real time and see
(06:53):
how you're going to be using itin whatever it is that you're
trying to do.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
I mean, the importance of that is just
insane.
And I think I was veryfortunate that I grew up in a
family where art was a part ofthe family, because my mom's
oldest brother was aworld-renowned sculptor and Raku
artist.
He'd shown all over the world,he had an ongoing practice but
also was the dean of an artprogram in Santa Barbara at UCSB
(07:20):
, and so it was a part of thefamily and my mom's grandparents
were huge in art.
So my grandfather was alwaysshowing me books and walking me
through things and literatureand poetry and art and they had,
you know, gauguin prints andhe'd have a Gauguin print next
to a Van Gogh print, framed andup, you know, above in the main
(07:40):
room by the dinner table.
And I knew about theirfriendship and I knew how they
pushed each other.
I knew those stories as a youngage.
They didn't hit me until lateron in life but I had that
knowledge inside me and I havestacks of his I even have them
here stacks of his art booksfrom his library, just these
huge books that you know what Imean.
(08:01):
Yeah, those big coffee tablebooks I've just got.
I've like 10 of them that hegave me and some that I got,
after he had passed from hisbookshelf, that I'd sit on his
lap and he'd show me these booksand we'd look through all these
famous paintings, and so thisknowledge continued to just fill
me as a child and as I grewolder, those interests were
(08:21):
always there and stayed there.
But honestly, nathan, I justtalked about not paying
attention to art school.
I knew stuff and I kind of wentoh yeah, I know that my grandpa
taught me about that stuff inart history class so it just
kind of went in and out the yearbut I didn't really know.
And it wasn't until 2014, when Iwent full-time in art, I really
realized that absoluteimportance of gathering as much
(08:46):
as I can and how much it wasgoing to impact, and then
impacted my practice 100%.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, I didn't have any artists in the family, but I
was certainly very fortunatethat my parents had two really
close friends who werepracticing artists, both of whom
gave me lessons.
I don't really remember howlong, but shout out to doug
wessendorp and julie smith, who,at different times when I was
quite young I mean, I feel likeI started with doug when I was
(09:14):
gosh, maybe just five or sixyears old and my parents saw
that I just really loved, youknow, drawing and all things
related to art, and I remembervividly he just'd just take me
out in the woods and say let'sdo you know, let's draw, let's
expose me to different materials.
And so, just from a young age,just that idea of you know
learning by doing, but havingthose influences was absolutely
(09:36):
tremendous and I'm sure you know, planted the seeds for you know
, whatever it's become sincethen.
What else you got for us in thequote department?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, there's a quote by Gandhi that I absolutely
love and he says live as if youwere to die tomorrow.
Learn as if you were to liveforever.
That is quintessential toacquiring knowledge over a
lifetime.
Right, he's saying doeverything you can do today,
(10:10):
because you don't know whattomorrow is going to hold.
Right, live as if you were todie tomorrow.
But I love that he packagesthat living live for everything
with learn as if you were goingto live forever.
Do not stop, keep learning,keep acquiring, keep going after
things.
And you know that that includesa lot of different things in
(10:32):
that right, in that learning asif you're going to live forever.
But as an artist to me, that'sif I transfer that to me
thinking as an artist, it is doeverything, experience
everything, look at everything,read everything, find everything
, watch everything, everything Ican, as if I've got this
eternal plane to just keep goingon as an artist, acquiring,
(10:56):
acquiring, acquiring, acquiring.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
The best way to stagnate at anything is to get
that fixed mindset of oh, I haveall the information I need to
stay the course.
And I think that it does becomemore challenging as we age
where you know we get to a pointwhere it's like I don't
probably need to reevaluate theway that I tie my shoes or gas
(11:19):
up my vehicle.
I mean, there are certainlysome you know basic things that
we can do on autopilot, but whenit comes to being in the game
that we're playing of you know,creativity and art and pushing
our own work to make the bestwork that we're capable of in
our lifetime, there's never timeto stop acquiring, you know,
new information.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Absolutely, and I think that piggybacks great with
this Thomas Kuhn quote thatsays the answers you get depend
on the questions you ask.
Yeah, and I truly believe thatif you're not acquiring
knowledge and self-educatingyourself, you're going to have
very, very few questions to ask,which means you're going to
(11:58):
have very few answers to rely onas an artist, and I think I
really took that to heart yearsago.
I believe I read that in Art andFear, maybe 10 years ago, and
that's when I went I need tostep up my game, because I have
all these questions about makingand being as an artist that I
(12:21):
cannot find answers for anywherebecause artists don't like to
talk about them Most times.
The art world doesn't talk aboutthose things a lot of times,
and even when I was askingquestions to individuals, they
weren't really giving me fullanswers, and so I went well, why
don't I start studying allthese artists that I love over
(12:42):
time and reading about them andreading their stories?
All of a sudden, I startedgetting all these answers.
You know, like when I read JoeMiro's book and Joe Miro's
journals.
Oh, my gosh, all thesequestions I had for years, um,
joe Miro was all of a suddengiving me the answers to as a
young artist in his 20s in Spain, and it was so.
(13:04):
It's like, oh, just so muchstuff started coming to me once
I started going to books andgoing to these things to try and
acquire answers to all thesequestions I have.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
And it all starts with curiosity.
Yeah, I don't think that I haveany natural gifts, apart from
just an absolute superpower foran insane level of curiosity
about everything, and sometimesthat can absolutely be
distracting and that can be ahindrance to actually getting
things done and executing.
(13:36):
But I think that as I've agedand hopefully matured just a
little bit, identifying you knowwhich of those curiosities to
chase and do something with andwhich ones to sort of set aside.
But all questions start fromthat place of hmm, I wonder, I
just wonder you know what woulddot dot dot fill in the blank?
You know what comes from there,but it all begins from that
(13:58):
place, I mean, because there'sno question to ask if there's
not something that we arecurious about.
That is the well from which thequestions flow and, of course,
to your point, that's whatproduces answers that can then
push us forward and move thingsalong.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, and that goes into something we talked about
recently, right, actually, youtalked about it in the episode
with Jeremy Cowart where youtalked about just that childlike
wonder, yeah, and just that,that curiosity of children and
you know, no pressure and justcreating.
But what's one thing thatchildren do better than anything
?
They ask a ton of questions,right, some of the best film
(14:36):
moments in comedies are the kidsasking questions and questions
and questions and questionsRight To the adult and it just
becomes.
I mean, there's been TV showsthat have been designed on kids
asking questions, right,comedies and things.
So it's like having thatchildlike wonder as an adult.
That enthusiasm to learn, thatenthusiasm to ask, I think for
(14:58):
an artist is extremely,extremely powerful because
you're going to go searching.
If you're not going searching,you're going to kind of stall
out at some point and thenthings are going to get really
hard because they're going to behard already.
But that total search, I liketo think of it sometimes.
As you know, I love vintagebookstores.
I've talked about this before.
(15:18):
It's one of my favorite things.
Anytime I travel, I look upvintage bookstores and I go
visit them and I search for artbooks.
For me, the search and the huntfor books rather than ordering
them on Amazon sometimes is partof this whole process for me of
learning, and so if there's acertain book I want, I'll put it
(15:39):
to my list of my search and myhunt.
And I find it in these vintagebookstores and for me it brings
even more of a spark of wantingto read it because I waited and
I searched and I found it.
Rather than the instantgratification of buying it on
Amazon it just comes because inart we don't get instant
gratification that often.
Usually it's a very longprocess.
(15:59):
Because in art we don't getinstant gratification that often
.
Usually it's a very longprocess.
It's a long, long road ofworking and trying things until
you hit that moment and thenit's so beautiful because all
the hard work you put in.
So that's just something I loveto do.
That creates even more of a fun, exciting part of learning for
(16:20):
me, even though I love itanyways.
It just adds a little somethingelse exciting part of learning
for me, even though.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I love it anyways.
It just adds a little somethingelse when you bring up the
childlike wonder and curiositythat we all have, you know, when
we're kids.
That made me think of somethingI was just noodling on the idea
of what prevents us fromcontinuing to ask a lot of
questions as we age, and I thinkit's mostly just fear of
(16:43):
looking dumb, feeling as thoughwe're supposed to have the
answer to the question thatwe're asking.
And there is something to besaid for fake it until you make
it.
But when you're in the presenceor when you have access to
people that have an answer orcertainly a better answer that
is informed by more experienceLike, why not ask?
(17:05):
So there is confidence.
It's an interesting thing.
I think it does require a levelof confidence to be okay with
maybe looking a little dumb ormaybe looking a little silly in
the moment, but at the endyou're going to have more
information than you had beforeand I think that, generally
speaking, people that haveknowledge especially when you're
with them in person they'rehappy to share it.
(17:27):
They're excited to share.
It's fun to share what you'velearned and to help other people
learn.
That's just an enjoyable thingto be on either end of that
equation.
No-transcript, not an expert,never claimed to be, never want
(18:11):
to be.
I'm an amateur, you know, forlife and you're like I kind of
am.
So you know asking questions,looking for more information and
trying to increase you knowwhat we can, what we can
contribute.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
You know, with that as well, absolutely, and I'm
such a nerd with it that I takeit to practice.
And I'm sure at times inmuseums I'm quite annoying
because sometimes the museumattendants love to talk to me
because I go in and I ask themquestions about the work that
they're standing in front of dayafter day after day and testing
their knowledge, because someabsolutely love the art and
(18:48):
they're there because they lovethe art so much and so, man,
I've had some conversations withsome 70 and 80-year-old
retirees, men and women atmuseums who know everything
about the exhibition and we justgo back and forth about the
artists and what they're doingand the timelines and those
things.
Then there are others that arejust kind of like, really, oh my
gosh, get away from me.
(19:08):
And I do it also with museumpeople that are just standing
there, random museum goersstanding in front of work and
talking about it, and I maypractice my own knowledge.
Go, hey, you want to learn alittle more about this piece and
maybe why the room is curatedthe way it is.
And sometimes I had people thatgo, oh, I'd love to.
And then another time, peopleyou know kind of get away from
me, look.
So we can also be annoying withour knowledge at times too, but
(19:30):
it's true.
Hey, I love art so much that Ijust want to talk about it all
the time, which I'm sure isannoying for some people as well
.
But you know what People get totalk about their lives and the
things they do at dinner all thetime and their jobs and what
they're doing and theirpromotions and these things.
I'm an artist.
That's what I have to talkabout is art.
So, while you guys talk aboutyour law firms and all these
things at dinner, I'm going totalk about being an artist and
(19:52):
the art that I love and thebooks I've read.
So sorry if you're at dinnerwith me, because that's what
you're going to get.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Well, we've already blown up our outline, but that's
okay.
We're kind of into part two,which was kind of us making the
pitch for why being a student ofthe game is so important.
I think we and your learningcurve than doing what we're
talking about right To seekingout new information.
(20:32):
I think about it a lot as justgathering seeds and picking up
new little seeds, little ideas,little things that just kind of
get planted along the way.
Little seeds, little ideas,little things that just kind of
get planted along the way.
And when I'm doing it right andby right I mean in a way that
works for me, I don't have anyreal concern for is there going
(20:52):
to be a harvest or when is thatharvest going to be?
I see this quote in the mix.
I'll share it now.
Robert Louis Stevenson saiddon't judge each day by the
harvest you reap, but by theseeds that you plant.
That, to me, requires patienceand that's going to be something
completely different.
Waiting for when the harvest,all of those things are somewhat
(21:13):
known.
It's a different kind of seed.
It's the kind where we justdon't know when it's going to
come to harvest or how it'sgoing to be useful.
(21:54):
But we just have to trust thatenough of them are going to grow
and are going to be able to beharvested in some way at some
point down the road.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Absolutely.
I mean, that's part of this.
That's why I love my one of mymentors.
Makoto Fujimura, japaneseAmerican abstract artist, always
uses the correlation ofgardening with art making,
always.
It's just there's no closercorrelation to anything than
gardening with art making.
(22:26):
It's just they go hand in hand.
And so from planting seeds toinvesting time and care to
nurture what you planted andthen to watch those things
sprout and like sometimes theydon't bloom, sometimes they
sprout and then they die and thenext one comes in, the next one
comes in.
But you have to constantly bere-harvesting that.
(22:47):
You have to constantly bereplanting seeds and nurturing
and doing those things.
And I think if you want thatfully tending garden, that fully
bloomed garden, like some ofthose beautiful gardens in
Europe that have taken 50, 60,100, 120, 200 years to just
continually bloom and be caredfor, and they're insane mazes of
(23:08):
gardens and flowers and I meanit's just absolutely fabulous
and I think those do you wantthe little teeny potted plants
on your porch or do you want oneof those blooming gardens in
your art practice?
And that kind of goes hand inhand with what you're going to
put in and what's going to comeout of it over time.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
I think it's probably a product of being a certain
age when the first Karate Kidcame out, but I became obsessed
with bonsai this age.
What age?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Like my Ferris Bueller shirt age 100%.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yeah, yeah, but I became completely I think that's
when that seed was planted theidea of like, oh, bonsai is
incredibly cool and someday andso I think I'm now on my third I
have successfully killed twothat I have bought.
(24:05):
I don't know, maybe it's justwhere I live up here, probably
this is everywhere, but everyonce in a while you see somebody
on the side of the road.
Well, no, no, you see somebodyon the side of the road just set
up in a parking lot sellingthem out of the back of the van.
But there's something aboutthat.
I bought books about it.
Whatever, at this point I'mjust like bonsai, curious.
It hurt me so bad when the mostrecent one, when it was clear
(24:32):
that I wasn't going tosuccessfully be able to continue
to keep this thing alive.
But the idea of something thatgrows and continuously gets
pruned very specifically overtime and deciding you know which
branches to nurture and whichones to remove, is just such a
such a beautiful, beautiful idea.
But that to me is sort of theyou know, if we, if we put it
(24:55):
into one, whatever thing, one,one plant, it would be that you
know in, in terms of thepractice overall, something that
develops gradually over time,certain things stay and become a
very meaningful branch of ourpractice and other things just
exist for a little while, stillserve the greater good for a
(25:16):
period of time and then getremoved or pruned or just don't
last.
But I just think abouteverything that we acquire along
the way.
It's purposeful, even if it'snot in the moment, because we
just never know.
I mean, I don't know about you,but I have moments all the time
in the studio I'm like, oh,this is like that other thing,
or this is like that one thingthat I saw, or that one.
(25:38):
I mean fill in the blank.
I wonder if I could apply thatidea.
That was meant for somethingelse, you know here, and the
answer is almost always yes, orit leads to a glorious mistake
and failure.
That still contributes to theoverall learning and progression
.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Absolutely, and just for a frame of Karate Kid
reference.
Saw the movie in the theaterwith my I believe it was my mom
and dad it might've just been mymom, so we used to go to movies
all the time together saw it inthe theater and then, I believe
it was the next day, I wentstraight to the library to check
out bonsai tree books.
Did you Cause I?
had to learn about them.
I had to know more about this,you know, and that was the first
(26:18):
time I'd ever heard aboutbonsai trees.
At that point in time too,right.
But anyways.
I want to read this quote byHaruki Murakami that says if you
only read the books thateveryone else is reading, you
can only think what everyoneelse is thinking.
I love that idea of goingoutside the box and just not
(26:42):
reading Rick Rubin's new book orreading the one that
everybody's reading right now.
Extend that collection.
I think it was a CS Lewis quotethat said for every new book
you read, read two old books, orread two classics.
It's something along that line.
But it's like, for every newbook you read, read something
(27:02):
old as well.
Because there's so much lifebefore right now, why just read
the new things, the new ideas?
There's a whole lot to learnfrom for centuries before us,
and so my books are new and old,and I've been reading a lot of
(27:23):
old books lately because they'reartists' lives when things were
different and things wereharder than they were now.
So if I can take some thingsfrom Jomiro and take some things
from Mogdiliani and take somethings from some older artists
from way back ideas and thatgrit and determination they had
to do things and make things inways that are 5 million times
(27:44):
more difficult to do.
If I can instill some of thatmindset into my practice today.
I know it's going to help me.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah, thinking about how much closer you can get to
the source of the original.
I'm using air quotes here forthe people that aren't watching
us on YouTube, which, by the way, if you're just listening, you
can watch us on YouTube.
All right, there, check.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
You can watch us on Spotify as well now.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Oh yeah, that's right .
What was I using air quotesabout?
That's why I don't do that.
That's why I don't pretend that.
Make a little side quest.
Yeah, son of a, I literallydon't remember.
Yeah, I think the core idea wasthe closer we can get to the
source of the thing.
I can't attribute this quote, Idon't know where it came from,
but the idea is just that,rather than whether it's art or
(28:33):
literature, rather than beinginfluenced by the latest,
greatest iteration of that, beinfluenced by what they were
influenced by.
How far back, how much closerto the original that's what I
was using air quotes about.
However, however much closer wecan get to the original idea or
the original practitioner of anidea that just speaks to the
(28:55):
value of of, not just, not justinputting.
You know the newest, shiniestthing.
That reminds me of another quote, ty, by Douglas Adams, and he
said human beings, who arealmost unique in having the
ability to learn from theexperience of others, are also
remarkable for their apparentdisinclination to do so, which
(29:17):
is hilarious because of how trueit is.
You think about how muchinformation, how much experience
of other people is out thereand just available for us to
learn from.
But let me pose that as aquestion A do you agree with
that?
And B if so, why do you thinkit is that we have a tendency to
(29:39):
not learn from others.
To the extent that we probablycould Question one was do you
agree with that quote?
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yeah, I absolutely do , because I see it all the time.
I think there are multiplethings here because culturally,
socioeconomically, there are alot of things that can go into
that quote when you grew up,where you're from, your
socionomic level, your educationlevel, your access to education
(30:09):
and, for me, all those thingswhere I can kind of go into this
.
But I think a lot of times it'stime you have to spend a lot of
time to learn and grow andlearn from the experience of
others.
You also have to listen and youhave to be present in order to
do so.
And I think in today, in moderntime, contemporary culture,
today, there's so much noise andthere's so much busyness and
(30:32):
there's so many things todistract us from actually being
present and paying attention andlearning from others that too
many people just kind of go withthe flow and follow the sheep
and herd and that's dangerous.
Historically we know that'sdangerous and I think it's just
difficult.
I think it's just a tough thingto do and so I think a lot of
(30:54):
that is just the time involvedto do that and being present and
not distracted by life, and aswe get older it gets really hard
to not be distracted by life.
I think about that all the time, about all the things and doing
this and filling in thechecking the boxes and doing
this thing and making sure I getthat done, that.
Sometimes it's really hard tojust be totally present.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Especially when you already know enough to do the
thing the way you've always doneit at least Right, absolutely.
Do the thing the way you'vealways done it at least right,
absolutely.
I mean I think about the.
That was part of my.
My definition of being astudent of the game is just
diversifying your influencesfrom as many different sources
as possible, maximizing ourinputs.
(31:37):
I've shared this quote before umon a earlier episode, I think
in our first season, but this isa quote by Paul Schrader, the
writer and director, but I loveit so much I'm going to share it
again.
That's the secret of creativityyou have to steal around.
If you keep going back to thesame 7-Eleven, they're going to
catch you.
So you go over to the floralshop, the gas station that
(31:59):
nobody ever goes to, you stealall this shit and you put it
together and people say, wow,they think it's yours.
I love that quote for a lot ofreasons, but I think that just
that last part right, like wow,they think it's yours because it
is, it is yours.
Once you have diversified, onceyou pulled seemingly disparate
ideas, ways of doing things andput them together in a novel way
(32:23):
, you have created somethingthat hasn't been created before
Because you're takingingredients from so many
different places.
It's going to look different,it's going to be unique, it's
going to be authentic to yourpersonal voice, setting aside
for the moment, the idea ofsomething that's never been done
before complete originality.
(32:43):
You wouldn't look at at tradersmovies and say, oh they, they
completely redefined.
You know cinema from the groundup, but they're absolutely
unique to his voice and hisvision because of the diversity
the diversity, um, of where he'sstealing those ideas from.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Well, I think one of the best examples of this that
you can use is DJs, andparticularly the origin of hip
hop.
Djs from DJ Kool Herc andGrandmaster Flash, I mean
African Bambaataa Kid K, allthese old school guys.
And DJ Spooky says you're onlyas good as your record
collection.
Yeah, but you have to thinkabout the fact that a great DJ's
(33:29):
record collection is moreeclectic than the next DJ's
record collection, because ifthey were all spinning the same
records, it's all going to soundthe same same records.
It's all going to sound thesame.
And you look at some of theguys that innovated in hip hop
as DJs, as disc jockeys,spinners.
They're taking old stuff, newstuff, they're mixing it
(33:51):
together.
They're taking classical musicand golden oldies and blues and
they're creating something newthat is theirs out of somebody
else's sounds.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
As opposed to just pulling from what's popular at
the moment and trying to dotheir version of that.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Hip hop is a perfect example of that.
We were out in Ohio last month.
We were in the Cleveland areafor a softball tournament, but I
took my daughter to the rockand roll hall of fame and if you
haven't seen their, their,their hip-hop exhibit is
phenomenal because it doesexactly that.
It starts at the very, the verybeginning, the very roots, and
(34:35):
you can see, especially if youhave even even uh, passing
knowledge of of that genre andof those artists, you can see
the through line, what startedhere and how they then took this
here and artist B took it hereand artist C took it, and it's.
It's fascinating to think, butit's funny how often our
conversations come back to musicand musicians.
But I've always been interestedin reading, you know, back in
(34:58):
the back in the day when Isubscribed to what were all the
spin Rolling Stone, readingabout the artists.
But it always caught myattention when asked who are
your biggest influences, howoften it's from a completely
different genre, how often it'slike, oh, I never would have
(35:20):
thought.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Almost always.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Almost always that they'd be influenced by
something that is completelyover here.
And then you think about it,you listen back.
Maybe you weren't educatedabout that particular you know
artist or or Johnny in it.
Oh, there is a little bit there, and there's a little bit of
that and there's a little bit,but they put it together in this
in this unique and novel way,and made it their own.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Well, and I think Jimmy Page is a great example of
that I think he talks about inthe documentary.
It might get loud with JackBlack and the Edge.
He listened to classical music.
Barbershop quartets, old schoolstuff that he grew up on is
where his passion was.
But then he played and I guessthey would say we were not rock
(36:04):
and roll, we weren't progressiverock, we were more jazz fusion,
more than anything, justbecause of their time,
signatures and things that theyplayed.
But his influence was not rockand roll.
He's one of the greatestconsidered, if not the greatest,
one of the greatest rockguitarists of all time and he
didn't even listen to the musicthey played.
So great example.
(36:30):
Well, nathan, how in the worlddo artists do this?
Like?
What are ways for artists todeepen their knowledge, to feed
into a world and a historicworld that goes on for centuries
?
What are ways that they canattain this knowledge and bring
things in and attain wisdom thathelps their practice?
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Well, let me kick out .
That's a great question.
We'll close out by giving sometactical ideas on how to do this
.
I think I want to throw atleast one more quote in the mix
here, mark Twain said this is agreat one.
The person who does not read hasno advantage over the person
who cannot read.
The person who does not readhas no advantage over the person
who cannot read.
The person who does not readhas no advantage over the person
(37:08):
who cannot read.
In other words, if we are not,and replace read with listen,
watch, whatever input or inputswork best for you, but if we're
not doing that thing, it's thesame as not being able to.
If we're not actively reading,it's the same as being
illiterate, which I don't knowabout you, but I can't imagine
(37:29):
anybody actually activelychoosing but you are effectively
illiterate if you are notreading and absorbing and
consuming new ideas and oldideas consistently.
So, tactically, I think thatdiversity is the name of the
game.
I'm just going to list off someways, and most of these are
super, super obvious.
(37:50):
But there's probably at leastone on this list that our
listener you, dear listener,whose ears we are in right now,
may or may not be doingcurrently.
So I'm just going to rattlethese off time.
You can pick up wherever you'dlike, but I think so let's just
start with reading the obviousones.
So, whether that be books aboutthe art world, biographies,
(38:11):
journals, autobiographies,history, watching art,
documentaries, listening toaudio books.
I'm a listener, I do like toread and I always buy the
physical copy so that I canespecially if it's a book that
really resonates with me.
I'll then go back and read it,which I'm then able to get
through a lot quickly because Ialready have listened to
highlight, make my marks andmake my notes and then translate
(38:33):
different ideas into journals.
But audio books are fantasticand since Spotify added, I mean
there's a veritable library onSpotify.
If that's something that yousubscribe to that you can get
for free.
Listening to podcasts I mean welisten to a ton of different
podcasts in the art space andoutside the art space, partially
(38:56):
just to get ideas on how to bebetter at what we're doing and
get ideas about how we canimprove.
You know what we're doing.
That's a great one.
This is one.
You know following people onsocial media and that kind of
thing who give valuableinformation.
You know there's some reallygreat follows and we can maybe
list them off in a differentepisode or right now if you got
(39:16):
some top of mind.
But just, you know followingpeople.
And then you know DMing andreaching out.
You know I I love it when I,when I come across a new
technique, a new idea, just anartist that I really dig, just
DMing, saying, hey, I really digyour work, you know, like I
really I really love what you'redoing and let that be that and
maybe that starts a conversationthat you know leads somewhere.
Just a new, a new connection toyou know, be able to comment or
(39:41):
receive different ideas at somepoint down the future.
But a few of those have actuallyQuite a few, as a matter of
fact, have developed into realconnections where we can
communicate about art and whatwe're up to.
Showing up is a huge one Goingto openings, going to events,
right, rubbing elbowsface-to-face, sharing oxygen
with people that are doing thethings that, that, uh, that
(40:04):
you're doing in the same world,that you're trying to be a part
of networking.
We've talked about that onebefore, but that's absolutely
critical.
Just, you know, making thoseconnections.
And then this is something thatwe've heard from you many, many
times before and we'll againbut just looking at a ton of art
.
That was the list that I kindof put together.
What did I miss?
Or which of those do you wantto unpack and talk more?
Speaker 2 (40:26):
about, if any you know on the looking at art.
Why go look at art?
Because it piques your interestin learning more about that
artist.
Number one it teaches you aboutyour own work.
When you get back to yourstudio and you're looking at
work and you've been looking atothers' work it teaches you.
But one of the things that I doin my mentorship program is
probably one of the favoritethings that I do outside of our
(40:49):
calls and the time I spend withthe mentees is I create a
research document artists fromcontemporary culture to art
history that is based on theartist's work.
So your personal work, whatyour work looks like, what feels
(41:10):
on the art timeline it has.
Does it have someneo-expression or some
minimalism?
Is there a little bit of favismor what is it in this artist's
work?
And I put together a list basedon artists in history and in
contemporary culture who havework and similar ideas.
It may not be exactly workideas, it may be thought process
and philosophy ideas in thework.
(41:32):
And then I also take a listfrom the artists on work they
love.
What do they love?
If they could take a techniquefrom anybody, who would they
take it from?
And I take all these ideas andI create a list of probably
depends on the arts between 50to 200 artists over time and I
also give them a list of genresand movements and art that fits
(41:56):
with their work and thenarrative in their work, so that
they have something to spend anenormous amount of time looking
at and researching and goingdown rabbit holes, because at
the end of the day, this is a100% Neo from the matrix thing
of following that rabbit holeright, going down that rabbit
hole and following it andfollowing it and following it
(42:17):
and following it.
And usually when an artiststarts researching art, they get
addicted and they want toresearch more because they see
how it impacts their practice.
Another part of this researchdocument is I do a YouTube
playlist based on that documenthas artists, studios, lectures,
(42:38):
certain movements, all kinds ofhistoric documentaries and
things in a YouTube playlistthat may be between 40 to 100
videos for them to even go intoa more visual route rather than
a reading and researching route.
But I would say, find ways to dothat on your own.
I mean, I do it regularly andthis is what I love about doing
it for my artists is I'll havean artist from the Middle East.
(43:00):
Well, I don't spend a lot oftime studying Middle Eastern art
, the history of Middle Easternart, or do I even get to go see
very much Middle Eastern art,and so I have to spend time
researching artists from thatartist's culture, from their
historic culture in the artmovement and contemporary
artists, and I've been able tofind artists from all over the
(43:21):
world in areas I've never eventhought about that have
influenced my work, and some ofthem I've been able to reach out
to and now talk work with onInstagram at times, and so for
me, that's just like wow, I justfound this artist from Ghana,
or somebody who's absolutelyinsane, that inspires me and
they're creating.
Now I follow them and askquestions how did you do this?
(43:45):
How did you sew this?
How did this work?
This work is incredible andtrying to build that network and
build those relationships, andI can't always go to places and
see the work, so that'ssomething for me that I love and
it's just really exciting forme to do.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
That's a big one.
And you talk about YouTube,youtube University.
Following the rabbit hole,youtube's search function or
algorithm in terms of what youmight like to watch next is
pretty damn.
Oh yeah, it's insane, it'sreally good.
So when you get on one littlething, it's going to do a pretty
good job of suggesting hey, youmight like this.
Hey, you know what YouTube Imight?
Thank you, let me give that atry.
(44:21):
I think, just in terms ofseeing other artists make work,
the Art21 videos are phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Phenomenal.
Louisiana channel Louisianachannel.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Those are great.
And you think about just seeingthose little mini documentaries
of artists working in theirstudio.
You see a tool, you see atechnique, you see something
like, ooh, what about that?
I get a lot of DMs or questionsabout, like somebody asked me
do you think you'll ever?
Would you ever teach classes?
And I'm like I wouldn't.
The answer is no.
I mean, I wouldn't even knowhow to begin to, because all I'm
(44:56):
doing is just trying all of thedifferent things that I'm
seeing on YouTube, most of whichhave nothing to do with art,
most of which are in the sort ofconstruction or manufacturing
space to think about.
Okay, how could I I'm alwaysthinking about how could I
misuse a technique and I saythat term somewhat tongue in
cheek but how could I take atechnique and repurpose it for
(45:17):
something completely different,that being art, and just see
what happens?
I've talked to about justwalking through the halls of
your the halls, the aisles therewe go, of your local hardware
store and home improvement,saying what could I do with this
?
And just going nuts, becausewhen you watch some of those
videos and you see the thingsthat some of these artists are
(45:39):
using, it's not the typicalmaterials that you're going to
find at your local art supplystore necessarily.
So just being a nerd back toour original point, probably a
good place to close.
But just being a nerd about howmuch can I learn, and not just
acquiring new information butthen thinking about how to apply
it, like that's probably whereI would, you know, plant my flag
(46:03):
and close out today.
But just, it's one thing toacquire new information and I
would argue that, just again,collecting a bunch of new seeds
has value for sure, because justhaving those seeds means that
they're probably plantedsomewhere in your subconscious.
You've got it in there.
However, there is another stepthat is more proactive.
(46:26):
It's more than it is passive,just like waiting for the seeds
to kind of grow on their own.
And the proactive portion ofthis becomes a matter of how do
I apply these, how do I takethis and actually do something
with it?
And have little sideexperiments going that nobody
sees, that may have nothing todo with the work that you're
trying to move forward, but justlittle side quests, little
(46:48):
experiments, because some ofthose will absolutely bear
tremendous fruit.
But you got to apply it, yougot to try to do something with
these ideas, whether they'retechnique related, or whether
they're more habits or the waywe think about the work.
All of those.
It's holistic right.
It's sort of that holisticapproach to how can we grow as
(47:11):
individuals and how can thosetechniques, those ideas, all of
that new information translateinto something that we apply.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
And there's no better time than now to start learning
again.
So for any of you out there whohave just put it to the curb or
haven't even thought about it,or thought about it and hadn't
started, there's no better timethan today to order a new book.
Go find a new book, add somenew audio books to your playlist
, get on there and search artbooks artist books on Spotify or
(47:43):
iTunes, whatever and startlistening.
Or on Netflix, do a searchartist on Netflix or Amazon,
prime, whatever and find artdocumentaries old ones, new ones
, gather as much.
And for those of you that aresaying, well, I just don't have
the money to go buy new books,well, you can order used books
on Amazon.
So there's a lot of books youcan find at $5, $6 that are used
(48:06):
.
Museums have incredible bookslibraries Most museums have
libraries within them, and soyou can go sit down in a museum
library and just pull books.
I used to do this all the timewhen I couldn't buy books.
I'd go to museums around me andI'd go sit in the library for
two or three hours and I wouldjust have books out and I'd take
(48:26):
pictures with my phone of workand pages and things, because I
couldn't go buy the book.
So there are plenty of waysthat you don't have to spend
money to buy things andlibraries still exist.
So there are libraries,probably in your city or your
town, where you can go check outbooks for a period of time and
(48:47):
read them.
I know that sounds very archaicand old, but they do exist and
you can actually go check out abook for a month and read a book
if you can't afford to buy onefor free.
So plenty of ways to do it.
There's no excuses.
And the reason we're doing thisbecause we want you to grow.
We want you to grow in yourwork and your practice, and we
know that attaining thatknowledge and growing your
(49:11):
knowledge becomes wisdom and itwill impact your work.
It will help your work.
Do a little bit of research, gosee some art, go read some
books, listen to audio books,watch some documentaries and
just fill that brain.
And what's going to happen isthe moment inspiration strikes
in the studio.
You are well prepared to go onlike the blazes with your work.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
That would have been a great place to close, but I
thought of one more thing.
Yes, it occurs to me that we'retalking a lot about thinking
about art and art technique, butone of the things that I think
is so invaluable about gettinginto the biographies, the
autobiographies, and hearingabout what it was actually like
for these legendary artistswhose names are engraved beneath
(49:55):
their pieces in the most whatam I trying to say?
All of these artists, theartists that hang in museums,
the ones whose names we wouldall know and aspire to, whatever
be like being an artist, can bereally lonely.
We can get stuck in our headsometimes.
(50:16):
I mean, there's a lot of.
It's an emotional process.
We're trying to put somethinginto our work, to make it
uniquely ours.
There's going to be a lot ofemotion around that, and so I
think that that sense that I getfrom reading about what it was
like for those artists when theywere making the work which is
oh, by the way, where we're atright now we are I don't mean to
(50:36):
say this, but we are in thetime where we are making the
work, and so hearing about whatit was like to make the work I
mean this comes up often.
I think that we referenced itmost recently in our Helen
Frankenthaler episode.
But just like even Helen, evena badass like Helen, who, if you
just saw the work, if you justread a couple of the most common
(50:58):
quotes, you'd think never dealtwith any fear and security
absolutely did.
I'm listening to Ninth StreetWomen right now in the studio
and just hearing about like, wow, the de Koonings didn't know
how they were going to.
Elaine had to have how manydifferent side jobs just to keep
things afloat, just to keep thelights on.
They had to move because theycouldn't afford.
(51:18):
And so here I am worried aboutwhatever little, whatever little
little thing that I'm, you knowpoor me about on that
particular day and you're like,oh, okay, it's, it's not just,
it's not just me, this is, thisis the path, this is, this is
kind of what we've chosen.
And so just understanding thatwhat we're feeling, what we're
thinking, the struggles that wehave, it's nothing new, it's
(51:38):
countless others that have comebefore us and everyone who's
doing what we're doing or aversion of it has and is walking
a similar path, which in and ofitself is incredibly
encouraging just to realize like, oh, this is just part of it,
it's not just me, this is justpart of it, and here we go.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
I'm going to close on your thing with something I
learned.
Speaker 1 (51:59):
No, you're not.
I'm going to close after youclose.
No, this is it.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
I'm going to close your close, I'm coming over the
top.
So, mentioning de Kooning, I'mcurrently reading de Kooning, an
American Master, which was aPulitzer Prize winning book, and
it's insane.
And today I read de Kooningsaid I always wondered why
Americans pronounce my name deKooning.
It's so funny because theactual proper way to say my name
(52:24):
is de Kooning.
That's the way you say it inDutch.
It's actually de Kooning.
But because the Americanscouldn't figure it out, because
there's two O's and said deKooning, he just went with it.
So I learned that this morningin my reading.
Anyways, for all the de Kooningfans out there, we'll see you
next time.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
I'm sorry.
Do people struggle with ClarkAll the?
Speaker 2 (52:46):
time.
Do you experience thatpersonally?
Speaker 1 (52:48):
Only if you're Scottish.
I love it.
Thanks for listening.
Join us next time for whateverwe decide to talk about then.
Have a great one.
Speaker 2 (52:57):
Freaking Deconing.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com