June 12, 2025 • 38 mins
Leonardo Drew invites us into the physical, philosophical, and sometimes painful world of material transformation. Unlike artists who work with found objects carrying built-in histories, Drew deliberately purchases new materials that he must personally weather and transform. "I need to become the weather," he explains, describing a process where he subjects materials to rigorous physical manipulation that often results in literal bloodshed.
This physical commitment reflects Drew's deeper philosophy about creation. He describes himself as "the crack addict of art," chasing the highs of creative breakthrough through persistent experimentation and a willingness to fail. His practice demands patience—it took seven years from his initial decision to create what would become his signature style before producing what he considered his first successful piece (which he numbered "8," acknowledging the previous attempts).
Drew conceptualizes artists as antennas receiving creative energy from the universe. He purposefully travels to "cradles of civilization" like China and Machu Picchu, absorbing experiences that later emerge organically in his work. "You don't have to say I'm making work about this specifically," he notes, "because that would cage and imprison the whole idea." This philosophy requires "getting out of the way" of one's own creative process—removing ego and preconceptions to allow authentic creation to happen.
By refusing to title his monumental works beyond simple numbering, Drew extends his transformation-based practice to the viewing experience itself. Each piece continues to transform through viewers' unique interpretations, creating an endless cycle of meaning-making that transcends the artist's original intent. As Drew profoundly states, "As I'm moving closer and closer to answering questions, at the same time I'm moving further away from the answers."
Want to experience this transformative approach in your own creative practice? Keep your channels open by constantly introducing new ideas and techniques. When feeling stuck, switch things up dramatically—if you're a painter, try sculpture; if you work abstractly, attempt representation. The discomfort of new approaches often leads to the most significant breakthroughs.
Sources:
Leonardo Drew in "Investigation" - Season 7 - "Art in the Twenty-First Century" | Art21
An Interview with Leonardo Drew | Wadsworth Antheneum
Woodcuts: Leonardo Drew | useum of Arts and Design (MAD)
Artist Talk: Leonardo Drew | Amon Carter Museum of American Art Fort Worth
Carrie Scott, SEEN Podcast | Leonardo Drew
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi there, Welcome to part two of Leonardo Drew Art as
Physical Transformation.
If you haven't listened to ityet, make sure to go back and
listen to part one.
You don't want to miss it.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
You know, all I know is that I don't take the
shortcuts, meaning found objects.
I don't like.
I have friends who work withthings, like you know, found
objects like Neri.
Neri Ward works with that.
He's a close friend of mine andit makes powerful work.
But's a close friend of mineand it makes powerful work.
But I need to become theweather in order to sort of make
these things become what theybecome.
(00:33):
So this is store-boughtmaterial that has to be
transformed.
So I have to align myself withhow things are made naturally
and understanding, evencosmically, how things where we
are.
In all this, it becomes aphilosophy.
Once you've sort of once you'vesort of how would I say,
committed to this journey, andit can be, you know, a lot of
(00:58):
bloodletting in this journey.
I mean it's like there's painnow, literally, and like, and
it's like, wow, it's like youknow, it's like you know I could
have had a V8.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
There's a lot of bloodletting in this process.
Yes, that's a fact.
I mean you talked, you spokebefore about the, the, the wear
and tear that he's put on hisbody.
He's he's spoken about that alot in different interviews as
well.
But you don't get those typesof results without some
bloodletting, without some painand a lot of process.
(01:35):
These transformations do nothappen quickly or easily.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Well, and he's.
You know I love the term thatI've heard a lot of interviewers
use, or critics that he's anartist who's weather Right, so
everything's weathered, but heis the weather.
He is planning these things.
Obviously there's weatherinvolved, but he's not just
grabbing something by chance.
He's purposely putting in thesun, purposely baking it
(02:00):
purposely.
And look at his.
I just want to read off some ofhis materials, and I don't have
this in the notes, but I dohave it wood, scrap metal,
cotton, paper, mud, rust,oxidation, non-organic rust,
cast paper, things that willbehave like paper, glass used
with the crushed paper, sand,porcelain, aluminum, buffalo,
(02:23):
fur, torn comics like thingslike he's.
There's so many thingsingrained too, and that's
something too.
Until you stand in front of thework, you may not even realize
that there's this many things insome of those pieces too, and I
mean, I don't know, the moreand more I dig, the more and
more I'm just like astounded byso many things wrapped up within
(02:45):
his work.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
As somebody who has been experimenting with, with
rusting and aging metal over thelast year, year and a half here
, I can tell you it's it's not asimple or or easy process.
Involves a lot of materialsthat may or may not shorten your
lifespan if you, if you don'tdo it.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Right, or wear a good mask.
Yeah, and this is somethingwith you as well that I really
love.
This correspondedness betweenthe two of you is he's using new
materials and making them lookold, and so a lot of people ask,
like, why are you using newmaterials?
Why aren't you just usingthings that are already old?
Right, and this is somethingthat is a little bit of a
(03:25):
difference between you two aswell, which I love about artists
who are using things that arefound or supposed to look found.
His reason is he wants to gothrough the rigor of touch and
manipulating and creating thehistory of each piece.
Now, right, rather than going,oh, these pieces had history and
so now I want to put them in mywork because of the story they
(03:47):
they're being told and beingdiscarded.
For me, there's that's such agreat analogy of the difference,
but beauty wrapped up insimilar ideas within art, like
that's just.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
I had to bring that up because to me, it's just so
freaking cool there's a there'sI was, I was talking to a friend
that we have in freaking cool.
There's a there's I was, I wastalking to a friend that we have
in common about this, butthere's a.
There's a continuum of processand material on on the one end,
you have found objects thatcompletely honors and displays
(04:21):
what it once was, and then youhave and drew, would be on this
end of the spectrum, takingalmost everything from its raw,
you know original state anddoing everything you know
himself.
And there's, there's there'sspace in between, but I was
thinking about this, like, whileI do have a lot of found, you
(04:45):
know, most of what I'm using hasbeen sourced from industrial
sources.
It definitely looks like thething that it was before of
years ago, where I would usesomething that I found to be
(05:05):
absolutely perfect and beautifulin its own right, but I just I
can't resist.
It's a compulsion.
I feel like I have to dosomething to it, to change it in
a, in a material way, to getdown to its its essence, and I
want to honor what it was before, but I don't want it to be at
(05:29):
all obvious what it was beforeand that's uh, but it's, it's
just interesting.
There's no, there's no right orwrong way, but it is a
challenge when you, when you,when one finds something that is
that could literally go fromthe stream or the dumpster and
ran onto a piece, I'm notcapable of just having it be
(05:50):
that found object, but it's afascinating thing to consider.
I'm going to stop babbling andshare another quote that
actually relates to this, betterthan I could communicate it
anyway Shut up, no matter whatmaterials you're going to be
working with it still has to gothrough this channel.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
This you're going to be working with it still has to
go through this channel, thischannel of you and you're.
You are stamping it.
Once you find your voice,that's it.
So the material is of no, of noconsequence, absolutely no
consequence.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
I just got done babbling for a while before that
, so you go ahead and take firstpass at this one.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Yeah, he's talking about the search.
Yeah, right, he's talking aboutthe hunt.
He's talking about us beingexplorers and being discoverers
and going out and doingeverything we can in this
channel where we're feeling ledRight and you think of a channel
.
It's something you kind of fallinto and it takes you somewhere
right in a lane.
(06:42):
So you're, you're doing allthese things, you're stamping it
, you're trying, you're playing,you're experimenting we talk
about this all the time and thenonce you find your voice,
that's it.
I found it.
Now I'm running, right now I'mgoing, and he's like now the
material doesn't mean anythingbecause you're just able to go.
And there's great quotes aboutyou know, if you're, if you're
(07:03):
always working, you're leavingroom for genius to enter in the
back door.
Right, I think that's from Artand Fear.
I think that's Ted Orlin andDavid Bayless that say that.
I can't remember, I'm prettysure, but it really is.
It's like you're going, you'regoing, you're going, no matter
what materials you have, nomatter what you have in your
studio, what you can afford,what you can buy, you're doing
(07:27):
everything you can with it, andthen you're going to get into
this channel where you're trying, trying, experimenting, playing
, then you hit it your voice andthen you're just going to run
with it.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
It just occurred to me there's a very direct through
line between what he's sayinghere and what Amy Sillman talks
about when she describes thevocabulary that we're all
looking for from our Amy Sillmanepisode yes, maybe you know the
date of, I do not, but shetalks about and this is one of
those things that has stuck withme since I heard it but it's
(07:52):
that we're developing vocabularyand the commonality here
between what he's saying and howshe describes that is.
When we think about verbalcommunication.
We're not thinking about isthis, is this a noun, is this a
verb, is this an ad?
We're just, we have thelanguage available and it just
flows because we know what thewords mean and for people like
(08:15):
you and us, sometimes,occasionally we string them
together in an okay, coherentmanner, but you're not
occasionally, once in a while,but you're.
We're not thinking about the awhile, but you're.
We're not thinking about theback to leonard drew.
We're not thinking about thematerial.
We're not thinking it justbecomes all a part of our
vocabulary and much likelanguage, much like speaking,
(08:36):
the way that I think aboutmaterial and clearly the way
that he thinks about materialand one of the great lessons
that I've that I've learned from, from listening to him speak,
is that the more vocabulary iematerial that we can gather, the
better we're going to be ableto communicate right, the more
words we're going to have at ourdisposal to properly
(08:59):
communicate whatever it isthat's flowing through us.
I just love that.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
What I love, nathan, about Leonardo, is this constant
exploration of materials.
That fits into his voice right,so he spent all this time like
leading himself down thischannel of I know where my voice
is and where this fits andwhere this is going, and he's
always willing to add somethingnew to that, which means he is
(09:26):
that artist who is perceptiveand open and constantly
gathering and listening to whatmay be coming his way, and I
think there's a really greatmoment with him explaining this
to somebody.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I think that you realize life, life not just
through your eyes but throughyour pores also.
I mean, your body takes inthings.
So all the things that I'vegathered over the years that
I've been on this planet.
You know, like if you're areceiver of information, you
know if you imagine yourself asan antenna, you know it's like
all this stuff has traveledthrough me, goes through me and
it has to come out.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
When I heard that I was thinking okay, either he has
spent a lot of time with RickRubin, or Rick Rubin has spent a
lot of time with Leonardo Drew,or they both have spent a lot
of time listening to each otherover the years.
Right, because this isn't abrand new thought either.
So they could not even knoweach other.
And it's a pretty.
It's a pretty.
(10:24):
Through time this idea has beenkind of pushed around through
through the creative industries.
But I want to read a little bitfrom Rick Rubin's creative way
on that, and he says we're allantenna for creative thought.
Some transmissions come onstrong and others are more faint
.
If your antenna isn'tsensitively tuned, you're likely
to lose the data and the noise.
If your antenna isn'tsensitively tuned, you're likely
to lose the data and the noise,particularly since the signals
(10:46):
coming through are often moresubtle than the content we
collect through our sensoryawareness.
They're energetic more thantactile, intuitively perceived
more than recorded.
Most of the time, we'regathering data from the world
through our five senses.
With the information that'sbeing transmitted on higher
frequencies.
We're channeling this materialthat can't be physically grasped
(11:06):
.
It defies logic.
In the same way, an electroncan be in two places at one time
.
This energy is of great worth,though so few people are open
enough to hold it.
So how do we pick up on asignal that can neither be heard
nor defined?
The answer is not to look forit, nor do we attempt to predict
or analyze it or analyze ourway into it.
(11:27):
Instead, we create an openspace that allows it, a space so
free of the normal overpackedcondition of our minds that it
functions as a vacuum, drawingdown the idea that the universe
is making available.
And he says at the end of thisartists who are able to create
great works through their livesmanage to preserve this
(11:49):
childlike quality.
Practicing a way of being thatallows you to see the world
through uncorrupted, innocenteyes can free you to act in
concert with the universe'stimetable.
And I really do think that'swhat Leonardo is doing.
He has just created a spacethat is so open to idea and so
open to not worrying aboutfailing and making mistakes and
(12:11):
messing something up as a kid.
You don't care, you're justgoing for it.
You're receptive to everythingthat's happening around you.
You're not forcing it.
I think that's the key.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
The key line from that that I wrote down as you're
reading, that intuitivelyreceived rather than recorded,
yes, intuitively received ratherthan recorded yes.
And so I think about the amountof the degree to which one's
channel has to be open toreceive this information.
And we our our doubt episodethat you referenced before.
(12:46):
I talked about this a lot inthe Jack Whitten episode notes
from the woodshed.
He writes about this a lot inthe Jack Whitten episode Notes
from the Woodshed.
He writes about this atremendous amount in that
incredible book.
But how?
The more if we start from aplace of knowing, if we start
from a place of okay, here'severything, here's all the
things I know, right, all thatis doing is clogging up our
(13:07):
antenna.
If you think back to the dayswhen there were, you know,
satellite antennas and dishes,if there was a storm or if there
was whatever leaves that gotbuilt up on the receiver, it
wouldn't receive the information, you would not get a signal,
and we are very similar in thatregard.
So when I hear Leonardo talkabout that, that to me just
(13:30):
reinforces that truth of youknow.
When he talks about not knowingand not needing to know, that
to me is a necessary componentto being an elite receiver and
thinking about it like I don'tknow Morse code, for example.
But if, for some reason, therewas a message coming through in
(13:53):
Morse code, the information's inthere, right, and so the
process would be well.
I suppose I could look it upand figure out what it says
fairly easily.
But if we're talking about thisin terms of ideas and
inspiration and the things thatflow through us, the process is
is the, the decoding.
That's where the decodinghappens.
(14:14):
It happens by tactically right,touching things and moving
things around and being inmotion, um and and and sitting
with the work and listening aswell.
It's funny.
This clip, um, started openwith Leonardo sitting in his
studio chair and just sittingwith the work, doing the thing
(14:35):
that we all do, right, the, youknow, the cock of the head,
trying to orient ourselves,trying to see things from a
slightly different perspective.
But that's what it is.
It's receiving, it's listeningand it is working in service of
what we're receiving and workingthat out, you know, through the
work in front of us, when heeven takes that to a whole
(14:58):
nother length by travel, right,yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
That's part of his antenna that he figured out at a
very young age when I thinksomebody said, you got to go to
Europe.
And he's like how the heck do Iget to Europe?
I don't have any money.
I think he might've been 18years old and he went to Europe
for his first trip and had nomoney, stayed in hostels, you
know, and really didn't eat much.
But he was seeing all this artand just all these things are
just coming in, right, hisantenna was up and so all these
(15:21):
things he's just they're justflying in all over.
And so he took that as oh man,this needs to be a part of my
practice, you know.
So for him, like traveling andputting himself in these cradles
of civilization that are justfull of memory and full of story
China, manchu Pichu, gorillaIsland like he really believes
that all of these things willnaturally manifest in his art.
(15:42):
And I can say from seeing it,yes, let's hear him describe
that in his words.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
We got a great, great quote for that.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
You know if you're going to be a receiver or like
an antenna receiving information, right, it's not a bad idea to
place yourself in these placesso that you can benefit from.
You know from ground up what'scoming into you.
And then you get to the studioand these things they're going
to come out.
But you don't have to call it,you don't have to say I'm making
(16:16):
work about this specifically,because that would cage and
imprison the whole idea of howthese things have to come out
naturally.
So you just get out of the wayand it's like I guess it could
be three years, many years later.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Get out of the way.
Get out of the way, get out ofthe way.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
That's probably one of my favorite thing.
I tell a lot of my artists thathave gone through a mentorship
program maybe you just need toput a note up outside your
studio.
The door it says get out of theway, get out of my way.
You know what I mean, causethat that's probably one of the
most difficult things for us asartists is to stay out of our
own way in the studio.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
That reminds me of um , a Philip Guston quote that
we've got on our ever-growinglist of episodes.
We will, we will be doing aGuston episode, but he talks
about when you're I'm going toparaphrase here, obviously but
the you know when, when youstart, you're in the room and
the galleries and the curatorsand the dealers are in the room,
(17:08):
and then after a while theyleave, and when it's really
working, you leave too, right?
Yep, I think about that a lot.
How can, how can, how many egodeaths do I need to die in order
to really, you know, transcendto that point of not of truly
getting out of the way?
(17:28):
That will, of course, be alifelong, a lifelong pursuit.
But when a genius like drewthis is just a little tip for
the kids when a genius says it'snot a bad idea, listen right.
People with wisdom, people withtrue wisdom and knowledge
generally, don't say here'sexactly what you need to do,
(17:50):
it's not a bad idea is a greatprecursor to put your antenna
all the way up.
When someone like that says it'snot a bad idea, it means it's a
really good fucking idea andyou should probably pay really
close attention to whatevercomes next.
Yeah, they're going to come out.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
He's an alchemist.
Yeah, I mean, really, I thinkthat's something that's so
beautiful.
Is he's able to kind of get outof the way and let the process
happen?
Yes, being an alchemist, right.
So he's taking these competingelements and combining elements
and letting the actual elementsstart to create this process
within everything that ends updriving him to put it together
(18:31):
after it's done its work.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
You don't have to call on it, you don't have to
say I'm making work about thisspecifically, because that would
cage and imprison the wholeidea.
These things have to come outnaturally, so you get out of the
way.
And that just goes back to whatyou're saying before about
whether it be travel, whether itbe you know, you're, you're so
great at reminding us to just golook at more art, go talk to
(18:53):
more artists, Right?
But the more we fill ourselvesup, the more we'll be there to
be called upon when it's, whenit's ready to come out.
And it'll come out However it's, however it's supposed to, as
opposed to no, this is the ideathat I manufactured, that I've
engineered in advance.
No thanks, that's not, that'snot, that's not for me.
(19:16):
Yep, All right, I gotta, I'vegot to include this one and
you'll.
You'll know pretty, prettyquickly why.
What were you making it for?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
I'm an addict.
What a question.
I mean you look around, I meanyou can see it's a serious
addiction, it's like crack.
So I am definitely the crackaddict of ours.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
So that was a CBS this Morning piece and, ty, you
can include that the follow-upquestion, which had nothing to
do with what he just said.
The interviewer was like Idon't know what to do with that.
Yeah, next question listen,this is a three-minute piece.
This is we don't have time tounpack what you just threw at me
.
He's uh, you know, drew saysthat in in multiple talks.
(20:01):
Uh describes himself as thecrack addict of art.
It's interesting.
As a, as an addict in recoveryin the, in the traditional
definition of the word, I cantell you that what I discovered
in art is there are a lot ofsimilarities.
Art's a lot like crack, as amatter of fact.
(20:21):
Specifically, there are somebrief highs with a lot of
struggle, with a lot of pain,and I think I mentioned this
before.
I didn't really tie it back tothe addiction piece, but I don't
know.
But I'd be curious to hear yourexperience with this as well.
We're chasing those highs.
We're chasing those, yes,moments where the clouds part
(20:43):
and it's just better than whatwe could have imagined, because
that's, you know, when, thosemoments when something comes
together, just so.
That's what we're chasing andit is a chase.
I mean, that's what addicts do.
We chase the next high andwe'll do pretty much anything to
to get that next high.
(21:05):
And my experience with actualdrugs that that gets pretty ugly
for me very quickly.
But when you put it in thecontext of an artist in the
studio, it is.
It's that constant striving andI think about it as a belief
and just a knowledge.
(21:25):
That's the hope that keeps megoing.
In those down times when thingsaren't working and I haven't
had a hit for a while, yeah, I'mlike it's coming.
It's coming the next, the next.
Just just keep working, justkeep doing.
The next thing.
The next right thing will leadto that next.
Yes, aha, moment, moment.
(21:51):
And then every time we get oneof those, however frequent or
infrequent they may be atdifferent periods of our process
, that's the fuel that keeps megoing.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
But how does that resonate with you as a
non-advent?
Yeah, the drive isn't to havethe same high you had before.
Yeah, the drive is the next bighigh, the one that's better
than the last one, right and sothat's better than the last one,
right, and so that's the push.
It's like, how do I get there?
How do I get there?
You know and so, but I thinkwhat drew has nailed, and so
(22:21):
many great artists like hismentor, jack Whitten, who was
one of his professors at Cooperunion, that became a father
figure and a mentor and also heshared studios with for a long
time as well in the beginning,that's something that Witten had
too, and I'm sure that Wittencompletely passed that down to
Leonardo.
In that relationship of if yourchannel is really small, then
(22:44):
that high or that feeling isgoing to be very small and
you're not going to achieve whatyou're really wanting.
But if that channel is reallywide and open and you're
receptive to trying anything andeverything and taking ideas
from here and there andgathering all these things and
being willing to absolutely failmiserably at it to get there,
(23:05):
you're going to get there.
You're probably going to getthere Now.
Time is of essence in thatpatient, slow, slow, unbridled,
frustrating time is all a partof that and I can guarantee you
cause we've read what, so weknow exactly what Jack would say
is because we've read him likeover a year's period of time in
(23:26):
notes from the woodshednothing's working, I can't do it
, what's wrong, something Ican't find it, blah, blah, blah.
And then he says I scrapped itall and went this way.
And then a few months later,what is?
I did it, I found it, Idiscovered it.
You know what I mean and so youknow that's that's hard, that's
a hard realization and it hastaken.
(23:47):
I mean, leonardo drew is in his, uh, young 60s and I think 63,
62, yeah, I would say.
He would say I'm stilldiscovering it, yeah, yeah, and
I would be empty without thefeeling of still discovering it.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Seven years, right Seven years from him making that
decision that it took him tomake what he decided was a
finished successful piece.
Number eight was the title ofthat first piece and he jokes
about that in one of the talks.
Obviously, obviously, if thefirst one that I did was number
eight, obviously there wereseven at least seven before that
(24:22):
came before it and they're allin there.
It's that absolute commitmentto the work and to the chase,
with the hope and the beliefthat there will be something on
the other side.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
One of my favorite things about Drew I don't think
really get into this, so I hopethat you guys really dig into it
when you listen to any of theseinterviews and more interviews
from Leonardo is he doesn'ttitle his work.
He leaves that up to the viewer.
And now I'm not that artist,I'm totally different.
I want I believe I want my workto have context in the title.
(24:58):
So oftentimes my titles areparagraphs long, or really, or
four or five sentences in yourtitle.
He's all the words Um.
And I think that's for me alsoas a poet, and a lot of my work
is based on poetry and differentthings that I've written in
memories.
I would do want some context inthere.
Now, it's the viewer's choiceif they want to read the title
card first or look at the workfirst.
That's up to them.
(25:18):
Yeah, but for leonardo henumbers his pieces like just
like still just like clifford hesays right no, the work is what
you make of it, not what I makeof it.
But if you were wrapped upwithin the work, what I have in
it somewhere will be baked in.
But you're also now baking moreinto it than I could have ever
(25:40):
created, and I love that.
He even calls out critics andcurators as lazy for trying to
put into it what they reallythink in articles and in things
that cause the audience toalready have a view of what the
work may be without reallyseeing it.
And he calls that lazy on theirpart a lot of times.
(26:02):
But that's the thing that Ilove about his work too it's not
small, so you're not walking upto a tiny little piece.
Now I've seen some Drew pieces.
I actually was at Ruby City inSan Antonio, which is the
collection of the artist LindaPace and her museum of her
collection in San Antonio.
It's a wonderful collection,and I walked around the corner
(26:24):
and I saw this two-dimensionalwith some three-dimensional
objects, square piece on a wall,I think 74 by 74 inches, and I
went this looks really familiar,something about this piece, and
so I got up really close to itand I was like, is this a Witten
was?
The first thing I thought isthis a Jack Witten piece and it
was a Leonardo drew piece from1997 and it's glass and paint
(26:44):
and wood, but I could see in itwhere he's going.
Yeah, so you think of thatwhole journey through, and I
think it's titled.
It's number 59, all of his worknumbered, numbered, so that's
number 59.
I think he's at like 920 orsomething at this point, or 960,
I don't know what he's at.
Yeah, but you can see thisjourney now, when I stand in
(27:06):
front of these pieces and I'mgoing, you're it, you're
literally in it, like you can'tnot be in it.
So that causes you, like one ofLouise Bourgeois rooms, to have
to go inside this artist andinside this artist's thoughts
and mind.
But now you're having todecipher what it's doing to you,
(27:27):
being surrounded by it, and whothis artist is, what they may
be, I don't know.
It's just as a title person, Ilove that his work is not titled
.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Well, it's an experience, right?
I mean, you mentioned CliffordStill.
I'm going to be back in Denverin a couple of weeks, so I'll be
taking another fourth or fifthvisit through the Clifford Still
Museum, which I'm super excitedfor, but his work of course as
well is incredibly large.
It's an experience.
It's to be taken in, and so thelack of information about what
(28:00):
it may or may not be about isperfect.
It's exactly the way that it'ssupposed to be and the way the
artist intended it.
I want to share a quote wherehe talks about what do you say
to people who ask what thework's about?
Yeah, and this is his response.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Oh, this is what I'm saying.
Do not do this.
Oh, this is what I'm saying, donot do this.
That's me pushing a bale ofcotton To Jack Whitten's studio.
Jack was my teacher at CooperUnion and he had a studio on
Lisbon Art, which is here.
I was pushing 30 blocks from26th Street, so that's Canal
Street Will be the next block.
I'm already here on Broadway,headed towards Canal, and so
(28:37):
Jack was on Lisbon Art, which isright after Canal.
So I would push these bales ofcotton.
This guy was smart enough,because this is a political
statement right there, you know.
But this guy took that photo.
If I was smart enough I wouldhave set it up, but I did not
set that up.
But he saw that I was doingthis every other day, pushing
his bale of cotton.
You guys saw the cotton piecein there earlier.
That's how it got done.
(28:58):
That very piece is that one.
And but let's get to thatstudio shot.
That's it Ridiculous,ridiculous.
It's like come on, you thinking.
I mean like, about what I mean.
It's like you know what aquestion that's, that's the
self-explanatory, you know.
It's like okay, this has to go.
(29:19):
That's behind you, also needingattention, and you're like, oh
God, what's next?
But that's the truth.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
That's the photo, that's the truth Thinking.
So the question was what areyou thinking about when you're
making his work?
And then, for context, here itshows some photos of him in the
studio, just completely immersedand surrounded by materials and
any number of the seven cryingbabies that he talks about.
But it's just.
His response is so, it's soincredible.
Like what a question.
It's self-explanatory.
(29:52):
It's like, okay, this has to gohere and do you need attention?
You know it's, it's attendingto those, each of those, each of
those babies.
But I just, I love thatresponse.
We're close here, which is acouple more quotes that speak to
the way that Drew thinks aboutthe work and just kind of his
philosophy around the creativeprocess.
(30:14):
This is from that Art 21 videothat we mentioned before.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
We're all reaching.
I mean I'm not talking justabout artists, but I mean we all
are reaching.
As I'm creating, I know that Ihave the opportunity, whatever I
feel or know I make intomaterial.
We're all reaching.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Ty, not just with art .
We're all reaching.
We're all reaching Ty, not justwith art, we're all reaching.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Absolutely.
I agree with thatwholeheartedly and I think you
know that's human nature.
I think we were all born toreach and strive for something
and reach for something,whatever you think that might be
.
That's part of what thisjourney is and I think that's
something that I had completelytaken to my art.
Practice is that I want toreflect that same reach and that
(31:00):
same strive and push towardssomething you know, whether that
is existence or supernatural orspiritual that you may think
Like, I do think we're innatelycreated for that and that's
something that I 100% take intomy practice, and I really do
think that Leonardo does as well.
And I think, when you have thatside in you of that constant
(31:21):
reaching and searching forsomething, that should be
reflected in your work, whichmeans your work should not stop
growing, it should not stopchanging and it should not stop
evolving.
It should be in this constanttransformation, right this
catalyst of the story of acocoon, right the caterpillar
blooming into a butterfly.
(31:42):
I talked about this with myartist this last Saturday and
you have something that can't dovery much in the beginning the
caterpillar on a branch doesn'tgo very far, can't do too much,
can't move very fast, not goingto see very many things.
Then through this process, itnow transforms into something
(32:02):
over a period of time.
It's not overnight.
It takes some time for thatcocoon to build and for it to
change and metamorphosize insideit.
That's Leonardo's seven yearsright.
And then all of a sudden thatcocoon opens and he's able to go
and do whatever he wantsanywhere, and I just think
that's a beautiful thing.
That's how we should be in ourstudios.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
I have a thought on that, but I'm going to share one
more quote, and then we'llshare our final thoughts.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
As I'm moving closer and closer to answering
questions, at the same time I'mmoving further away from the
answers.
So all I have to do at thispoint is continue to sort of
place my body in the act ofattempting to know.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
I think that's a great quote for us to end on.
Absolutely so.
You know we like to try and attimes give people a whatever
tangible takeaway.
I think for me it would be.
Are you asking those questions?
No, are you spending time?
You are, dear listener, not you, ty Nathan Clark, but you too,
(33:16):
ty TNC.
Okay, listener, not you, tyNathan Clark, but you too, ty
TNC.
Are you seeking, are youreaching, are you receiving?
You know, ask that question inthe first part Am I seeking, am
I reaching, am I receiving?
You know spending time?
You know you and I are bothpretty dedicated journalers and
writers and processing ourexperience in some attempt, you
(33:38):
know, to make sense of things.
But that's a really goodintrospective question to bring
into that practice, whateverthat looks like for you.
But it's a.
It's a big challenge, you know,like we talked about before, am
I too comfortable, you know,and when I'm feeling
uncomfortable, while thatdoesn't change the, the
discomfort and that that is notan enjoyable feeling, oftentimes
(34:00):
embracing that discomfort aspart of the journey to get from
where we're at to where we'remeant to be your thoughts.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, and I think if you are starting to feel really
uncomfortable and stuck, switchit up.
Do something different for awhile.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Tie your hands behind your back.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Yeah, tie your hands behind your back, do something
totally random.
Go make some found objectpieces.
If you're a painter, if you'rean abstract painter, do a still
life, set up a still life inyour studio and go back to the
basics.
Just do something different fora little bit.
Sometimes we do need to justswitch it up and do something
different, and I think that'snot leaving the road you're on,
that's just assisting yourselfwith getting some, uh, some
(34:46):
breaths of fresh air to bringinto your space and your studio.
And I think Leonardo is a greatexample that he mastered
something.
It was very good at it, itcould have been very successful
in it, and he went oh, no, no, Iwant to go, I want to do this.
No, no, no, I want to go thisway.
I don't want to have my handstied anymore, I want to just
keep rolling and rolling androlling.
And so you know, I would sayhey, you just got to enter new
(35:11):
ideas and things regularly.
Regularly, not just once a year, not just twice a year.
While you're working on whatyou're working on, be messing
around with something else inthe studio, because I had just.
That quote is just so great, asI'm moving closer and closer to
answering questions, which he'sthrowing out a lot of questions
regularly.
You'll hear that when youlisten to him.
(35:32):
At the same time, I'm movingfurther and further away from
the answers because he's soreceptive to new ideas and new
thoughts and new things.
They're always coming in.
So each time stuff starts toget solved, he gets further away
from solving it because he'sconstantly entering in new
things.
And I would say, if you cantake anything from this episode,
take that into your studiopractice.
(35:55):
That way those walls stay openand they don't get closer and
closer and closer and startclosing you in.
So if you have the opportunityto go to a museum because you
live in a city where there aremuseums get online.
Go to their archive, see what'sin their collection, search for
Leonardo Drew, see if they havea piece.
If you're traveling to anothercity that has museums, do a
(36:16):
little search.
Who has Leonardo Drew's?
I'm telling you.
You're traveling to anothercity that has museums, do a
little search.
Who has leonardo drews?
I'm telling you here you'regoing to be blown away.
Even if you don't, even ifyou're like I don't even like
installation art, I don't you'regoing to be blown away.
I don't care, you need to gosee his work.
Somehow, if not, just getonline, do some searches, you're
, you're gonna yeah you're gonnalose it.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
He's incredible look at more art, listen to more
artists.
You know, don't take our wordfor it.
I mean what, you know, what,what?
Speaker 1 (36:41):
what are we?
Speaker 3 (36:43):
you know.
But but honestly, I mean all ofthe you know.
So we'll, we'll just share.
We'll share all of all of the,the, all of our sources in the
show notes here.
But the art 21 video isphenomenal.
A lot of our quotes were takenfrom that.
The Carrie Scott episode on herpodcast scene is phenomenal,
and there's a lot of other greatones out there as well, many of
which we referenced.
But just again, one of thereoccurring themes of the
(37:07):
podcast is just listen likediscover, you know, try to
really understand, and just geta that of that excitement, that
energy, that juice that comesfrom really understanding how,
not just art itself, but howartists think about their art,
how they approach you know,their, their practice.
(37:30):
I mean I'm I'll be able tofloat a good couple months just
on, just on all the researchthat we've done from this and
having this, having this, havingthis conversation as well, it's
, uh, it's, it's, it'sincredible.
So with that we'll wrap up.
Thank you so much for uh forlistening.
Thanks for hanging out.
Check us out on the uh onyoutube if you want to see.
Ty does an amazing job of theedit.
So if you're not going to doyour own homework, ty will
(37:52):
include some uh, some greatclips of different, uh,
different pieces of leonardoworking, as well as a lot of his
incredible finish work as well.
So with that, join us next timefor another episode of Just
Make Art Bye.
Hi there, Welcome to part two of Leonardo Drew Art as
Physical Transformation.
If you haven't listened to ityet, make sure to go back and
listen to part one.
You don't want to miss it.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
You know, all I know is that I don't take the
shortcuts, meaning found objects.
I don't like.
I have friends who work withthings, like you know, found
objects like Neri.
Neri Ward works with that.
He's a close friend of mine andit makes powerful work.
But's a close friend of mineand it makes powerful work.
But I need to become theweather in order to sort of make
these things become what theybecome.
(00:33):
So this is store-boughtmaterial that has to be
transformed.
So I have to align myself withhow things are made naturally
and understanding, evencosmically, how things where we
are.
In all this, it becomes aphilosophy.
Once you've sort of once you'vesort of how would I say,
committed to this journey, andit can be, you know, a lot of
(00:58):
bloodletting in this journey.
I mean it's like there's painnow, literally, and like, and
it's like, wow, it's like youknow, it's like you know I could
have had a V8.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
There's a lot of bloodletting in this process.
Yes, that's a fact.
I mean you talked, you spokebefore about the, the, the wear
and tear that he's put on hisbody.
He's he's spoken about that alot in different interviews as
well.
But you don't get those typesof results without some
bloodletting, without some painand a lot of process.
(01:35):
These transformations do nothappen quickly or easily.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Well, and he's.
You know I love the term thatI've heard a lot of interviewers
use, or critics that he's anartist who's weather Right, so
everything's weathered, but heis the weather.
He is planning these things.
Obviously there's weatherinvolved, but he's not just
grabbing something by chance.
He's purposely putting in thesun, purposely baking it
(02:00):
purposely.
And look at his.
I just want to read off some ofhis materials, and I don't have
this in the notes, but I dohave it wood, scrap metal,
cotton, paper, mud, rust,oxidation, non-organic rust,
cast paper, things that willbehave like paper, glass used
with the crushed paper, sand,porcelain, aluminum, buffalo,
(02:23):
fur, torn comics like thingslike he's.
There's so many thingsingrained too, and that's
something too.
Until you stand in front of thework, you may not even realize
that there's this many things insome of those pieces too, and I
mean, I don't know, the moreand more I dig, the more and
more I'm just like astounded byso many things wrapped up within
(02:45):
his work.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
As somebody who has been experimenting with, with
rusting and aging metal over thelast year, year and a half here
, I can tell you it's it's not asimple or or easy process.
Involves a lot of materialsthat may or may not shorten your
lifespan if you, if you don'tdo it.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Right, or wear a good mask.
Yeah, and this is somethingwith you as well that I really
love.
This correspondedness betweenthe two of you is he's using new
materials and making them lookold, and so a lot of people ask,
like, why are you using newmaterials?
Why aren't you just usingthings that are already old?
Right, and this is somethingthat is a little bit of a
(03:25):
difference between you two aswell, which I love about artists
who are using things that arefound or supposed to look found.
His reason is he wants to gothrough the rigor of touch and
manipulating and creating thehistory of each piece.
Now, right, rather than going,oh, these pieces had history and
so now I want to put them in mywork because of the story they
(03:47):
they're being told and beingdiscarded.
For me, there's that's such agreat analogy of the difference,
but beauty wrapped up insimilar ideas within art, like
that's just.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
I had to bring that up because to me, it's just so
freaking cool there's a there'sI was, I was talking to a friend
that we have in freaking cool.
There's a there's I was, I wastalking to a friend that we have
in common about this, butthere's a.
There's a continuum of processand material on on the one end,
you have found objects thatcompletely honors and displays
(04:21):
what it once was, and then youhave and drew, would be on this
end of the spectrum, takingalmost everything from its raw,
you know original state anddoing everything you know
himself.
And there's, there's there'sspace in between, but I was
thinking about this, like, whileI do have a lot of found, you
(04:45):
know, most of what I'm using hasbeen sourced from industrial
sources.
It definitely looks like thething that it was before of
years ago, where I would usesomething that I found to be
(05:05):
absolutely perfect and beautifulin its own right, but I just I
can't resist.
It's a compulsion.
I feel like I have to dosomething to it, to change it in
a, in a material way, to getdown to its its essence, and I
want to honor what it was before, but I don't want it to be at
(05:29):
all obvious what it was beforeand that's uh, but it's, it's
just interesting.
There's no, there's no right orwrong way, but it is a
challenge when you, when you,when one finds something that is
that could literally go fromthe stream or the dumpster and
ran onto a piece, I'm notcapable of just having it be
(05:50):
that found object, but it's afascinating thing to consider.
I'm going to stop babbling andshare another quote that
actually relates to this, betterthan I could communicate it
anyway Shut up, no matter whatmaterials you're going to be
working with it still has to gothrough this channel.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
This you're going to be working with it still has to
go through this channel, thischannel of you and you're.
You are stamping it.
Once you find your voice,that's it.
So the material is of no, of noconsequence, absolutely no
consequence.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
I just got done babbling for a while before that
, so you go ahead and take firstpass at this one.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Yeah, he's talking about the search.
Yeah, right, he's talking aboutthe hunt.
He's talking about us beingexplorers and being discoverers
and going out and doingeverything we can in this
channel where we're feeling ledRight and you think of a channel
.
It's something you kind of fallinto and it takes you somewhere
right in a lane.
(06:42):
So you're, you're doing allthese things, you're stamping it
, you're trying, you're playing,you're experimenting we talk
about this all the time and thenonce you find your voice,
that's it.
I found it.
Now I'm running, right now I'mgoing, and he's like now the
material doesn't mean anythingbecause you're just able to go.
And there's great quotes aboutyou know, if you're, if you're
(07:03):
always working, you're leavingroom for genius to enter in the
back door.
Right, I think that's from Artand Fear.
I think that's Ted Orlin andDavid Bayless that say that.
I can't remember, I'm prettysure, but it really is.
It's like you're going, you'regoing, you're going, no matter
what materials you have, nomatter what you have in your
studio, what you can afford,what you can buy, you're doing
(07:27):
everything you can with it, andthen you're going to get into
this channel where you're trying, trying, experimenting, playing
, then you hit it your voice andthen you're just going to run
with it.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
It just occurred to me there's a very direct through
line between what he's sayinghere and what Amy Sillman talks
about when she describes thevocabulary that we're all
looking for from our Amy Sillmanepisode yes, maybe you know the
date of, I do not, but shetalks about and this is one of
those things that has stuck withme since I heard it but it's
(07:52):
that we're developing vocabularyand the commonality here
between what he's saying and howshe describes that is.
When we think about verbalcommunication.
We're not thinking about isthis, is this a noun, is this a
verb, is this an ad?
We're just, we have thelanguage available and it just
flows because we know what thewords mean and for people like
(08:15):
you and us, sometimes,occasionally we string them
together in an okay, coherentmanner, but you're not
occasionally, once in a while,but you're.
We're not thinking about the awhile, but you're.
We're not thinking about theback to leonard drew.
We're not thinking about thematerial.
We're not thinking it justbecomes all a part of our
vocabulary and much likelanguage, much like speaking,
(08:36):
the way that I think aboutmaterial and clearly the way
that he thinks about materialand one of the great lessons
that I've that I've learned from, from listening to him speak,
is that the more vocabulary iematerial that we can gather, the
better we're going to be ableto communicate right, the more
words we're going to have at ourdisposal to properly
(08:59):
communicate whatever it isthat's flowing through us.
I just love that.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
What I love, nathan, about Leonardo, is this constant
exploration of materials.
That fits into his voice right,so he spent all this time like
leading himself down thischannel of I know where my voice
is and where this fits andwhere this is going, and he's
always willing to add somethingnew to that, which means he is
(09:26):
that artist who is perceptiveand open and constantly
gathering and listening to whatmay be coming his way, and I
think there's a really greatmoment with him explaining this
to somebody.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I think that you realize life, life not just
through your eyes but throughyour pores also.
I mean, your body takes inthings.
So all the things that I'vegathered over the years that
I've been on this planet.
You know, like if you're areceiver of information, you
know if you imagine yourself asan antenna, you know it's like
all this stuff has traveledthrough me, goes through me and
it has to come out.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
When I heard that I was thinking okay, either he has
spent a lot of time with RickRubin, or Rick Rubin has spent a
lot of time with Leonardo Drew,or they both have spent a lot
of time listening to each otherover the years.
Right, because this isn't abrand new thought either.
So they could not even knoweach other.
And it's a pretty.
It's a pretty.
(10:24):
Through time this idea has beenkind of pushed around through
through the creative industries.
But I want to read a little bitfrom Rick Rubin's creative way
on that, and he says we're allantenna for creative thought.
Some transmissions come onstrong and others are more faint
.
If your antenna isn'tsensitively tuned, you're likely
to lose the data and the noise.
If your antenna isn'tsensitively tuned, you're likely
to lose the data and the noise,particularly since the signals
(10:46):
coming through are often moresubtle than the content we
collect through our sensoryawareness.
They're energetic more thantactile, intuitively perceived
more than recorded.
Most of the time, we'regathering data from the world
through our five senses.
With the information that'sbeing transmitted on higher
frequencies.
We're channeling this materialthat can't be physically grasped
(11:06):
.
It defies logic.
In the same way, an electroncan be in two places at one time
.
This energy is of great worth,though so few people are open
enough to hold it.
So how do we pick up on asignal that can neither be heard
nor defined?
The answer is not to look forit, nor do we attempt to predict
or analyze it or analyze ourway into it.
(11:27):
Instead, we create an openspace that allows it, a space so
free of the normal overpackedcondition of our minds that it
functions as a vacuum, drawingdown the idea that the universe
is making available.
And he says at the end of thisartists who are able to create
great works through their livesmanage to preserve this
(11:49):
childlike quality.
Practicing a way of being thatallows you to see the world
through uncorrupted, innocenteyes can free you to act in
concert with the universe'stimetable.
And I really do think that'swhat Leonardo is doing.
He has just created a spacethat is so open to idea and so
open to not worrying aboutfailing and making mistakes and
(12:11):
messing something up as a kid.
You don't care, you're justgoing for it.
You're receptive to everythingthat's happening around you.
You're not forcing it.
I think that's the key.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
The key line from that that I wrote down as you're
reading, that intuitivelyreceived rather than recorded,
yes, intuitively received ratherthan recorded yes.
And so I think about the amountof the degree to which one's
channel has to be open toreceive this information.
And we our our doubt episodethat you referenced before.
(12:46):
I talked about this a lot inthe Jack Whitten episode notes
from the woodshed.
He writes about this a lot inthe Jack Whitten episode Notes
from the Woodshed.
He writes about this atremendous amount in that
incredible book.
But how?
The more if we start from aplace of knowing, if we start
from a place of okay, here'severything, here's all the
things I know, right, all thatis doing is clogging up our
(13:07):
antenna.
If you think back to the dayswhen there were, you know,
satellite antennas and dishes,if there was a storm or if there
was whatever leaves that gotbuilt up on the receiver, it
wouldn't receive the information, you would not get a signal,
and we are very similar in thatregard.
So when I hear Leonardo talkabout that, that to me just
(13:30):
reinforces that truth of youknow.
When he talks about not knowingand not needing to know, that
to me is a necessary componentto being an elite receiver and
thinking about it like I don'tknow Morse code, for example.
But if, for some reason, therewas a message coming through in
(13:53):
Morse code, the information's inthere, right, and so the
process would be well.
I suppose I could look it upand figure out what it says
fairly easily.
But if we're talking about thisin terms of ideas and
inspiration and the things thatflow through us, the process is
is the, the decoding.
That's where the decodinghappens.
(14:14):
It happens by tactically right,touching things and moving
things around and being inmotion, um and and and sitting
with the work and listening aswell.
It's funny.
This clip, um, started openwith Leonardo sitting in his
studio chair and just sittingwith the work, doing the thing
(14:35):
that we all do, right, the, youknow, the cock of the head,
trying to orient ourselves,trying to see things from a
slightly different perspective.
But that's what it is.
It's receiving, it's listeningand it is working in service of
what we're receiving and workingthat out, you know, through the
work in front of us, when heeven takes that to a whole
(14:58):
nother length by travel, right,yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
That's part of his antenna that he figured out at a
very young age when I thinksomebody said, you got to go to
Europe.
And he's like how the heck do Iget to Europe?
I don't have any money.
I think he might've been 18years old and he went to Europe
for his first trip and had nomoney, stayed in hostels, you
know, and really didn't eat much.
But he was seeing all this artand just all these things are
just coming in, right, hisantenna was up and so all these
(15:21):
things he's just they're justflying in all over.
And so he took that as oh man,this needs to be a part of my
practice, you know.
So for him, like traveling andputting himself in these cradles
of civilization that are justfull of memory and full of story
China, manchu Pichu, gorillaIsland like he really believes
that all of these things willnaturally manifest in his art.
(15:42):
And I can say from seeing it,yes, let's hear him describe
that in his words.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
We got a great, great quote for that.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
You know if you're going to be a receiver or like
an antenna receiving information, right, it's not a bad idea to
place yourself in these placesso that you can benefit from.
You know from ground up what'scoming into you.
And then you get to the studioand these things they're going
to come out.
But you don't have to call it,you don't have to say I'm making
(16:16):
work about this specifically,because that would cage and
imprison the whole idea of howthese things have to come out
naturally.
So you just get out of the wayand it's like I guess it could
be three years, many years later.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Get out of the way.
Get out of the way, get out ofthe way.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
That's probably one of my favorite thing.
I tell a lot of my artists thathave gone through a mentorship
program maybe you just need toput a note up outside your
studio.
The door it says get out of theway, get out of my way.
You know what I mean, causethat that's probably one of the
most difficult things for us asartists is to stay out of our
own way in the studio.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
That reminds me of um , a Philip Guston quote that
we've got on our ever-growinglist of episodes.
We will, we will be doing aGuston episode, but he talks
about when you're I'm going toparaphrase here, obviously but
the you know when, when youstart, you're in the room and
the galleries and the curatorsand the dealers are in the room,
(17:08):
and then after a while theyleave, and when it's really
working, you leave too, right?
Yep, I think about that a lot.
How can, how can, how many egodeaths do I need to die in order
to really, you know, transcendto that point of not of truly
getting out of the way?
(17:28):
That will, of course, be alifelong, a lifelong pursuit.
But when a genius like drewthis is just a little tip for
the kids when a genius says it'snot a bad idea, listen right.
People with wisdom, people withtrue wisdom and knowledge
generally, don't say here'sexactly what you need to do,
(17:50):
it's not a bad idea is a greatprecursor to put your antenna
all the way up.
When someone like that says it'snot a bad idea, it means it's a
really good fucking idea andyou should probably pay really
close attention to whatevercomes next.
Yeah, they're going to come out.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
He's an alchemist.
Yeah, I mean, really, I thinkthat's something that's so
beautiful.
Is he's able to kind of get outof the way and let the process
happen?
Yes, being an alchemist, right.
So he's taking these competingelements and combining elements
and letting the actual elementsstart to create this process
within everything that ends updriving him to put it together
(18:31):
after it's done its work.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
You don't have to call on it, you don't have to
say I'm making work about thisspecifically, because that would
cage and imprison the wholeidea.
These things have to come outnaturally, so you get out of the
way.
And that just goes back to whatyou're saying before about
whether it be travel, whether itbe you know, you're, you're so
great at reminding us to just golook at more art, go talk to
(18:53):
more artists, Right?
But the more we fill ourselvesup, the more we'll be there to
be called upon when it's, whenit's ready to come out.
And it'll come out However it's, however it's supposed to, as
opposed to no, this is the ideathat I manufactured, that I've
engineered in advance.
No thanks, that's not, that'snot, that's not for me.
(19:16):
Yep, All right, I gotta, I'vegot to include this one and
you'll.
You'll know pretty, prettyquickly why.
What were you making it for?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
I'm an addict.
What a question.
I mean you look around, I meanyou can see it's a serious
addiction, it's like crack.
So I am definitely the crackaddict of ours.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
So that was a CBS this Morning piece and, ty, you
can include that the follow-upquestion, which had nothing to
do with what he just said.
The interviewer was like Idon't know what to do with that.
Yeah, next question listen,this is a three-minute piece.
This is we don't have time tounpack what you just threw at me
.
He's uh, you know, drew saysthat in in multiple talks.
(20:01):
Uh describes himself as thecrack addict of art.
It's interesting.
As a, as an addict in recoveryin the, in the traditional
definition of the word, I cantell you that what I discovered
in art is there are a lot ofsimilarities.
Art's a lot like crack, as amatter of fact.
(20:21):
Specifically, there are somebrief highs with a lot of
struggle, with a lot of pain,and I think I mentioned this
before.
I didn't really tie it back tothe addiction piece, but I don't
know.
But I'd be curious to hear yourexperience with this as well.
We're chasing those highs.
We're chasing those, yes,moments where the clouds part
(20:43):
and it's just better than whatwe could have imagined, because
that's, you know, when, thosemoments when something comes
together, just so.
That's what we're chasing andit is a chase.
I mean, that's what addicts do.
We chase the next high andwe'll do pretty much anything to
to get that next high.
(21:05):
And my experience with actualdrugs that that gets pretty ugly
for me very quickly.
But when you put it in thecontext of an artist in the
studio, it is.
It's that constant striving andI think about it as a belief
and just a knowledge.
(21:25):
That's the hope that keeps megoing.
In those down times when thingsaren't working and I haven't
had a hit for a while, yeah, I'mlike it's coming.
It's coming the next, the next.
Just just keep working, justkeep doing.
The next thing.
The next right thing will leadto that next.
Yes, aha, moment, moment.
(21:51):
And then every time we get oneof those, however frequent or
infrequent they may be atdifferent periods of our process
, that's the fuel that keeps megoing.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
But how does that resonate with you as a
non-advent?
Yeah, the drive isn't to havethe same high you had before.
Yeah, the drive is the next bighigh, the one that's better
than the last one, right and sothat's better than the last one,
right, and so that's the push.
It's like, how do I get there?
How do I get there?
You know and so, but I thinkwhat drew has nailed, and so
(22:21):
many great artists like hismentor, jack Whitten, who was
one of his professors at Cooperunion, that became a father
figure and a mentor and also heshared studios with for a long
time as well in the beginning,that's something that Witten had
too, and I'm sure that Wittencompletely passed that down to
Leonardo.
In that relationship of if yourchannel is really small, then
(22:44):
that high or that feeling isgoing to be very small and
you're not going to achieve whatyou're really wanting.
But if that channel is reallywide and open and you're
receptive to trying anything andeverything and taking ideas
from here and there andgathering all these things and
being willing to absolutely failmiserably at it to get there,
(23:05):
you're going to get there.
You're probably going to getthere Now.
Time is of essence in thatpatient, slow, slow, unbridled,
frustrating time is all a partof that and I can guarantee you
cause we've read what, so weknow exactly what Jack would say
is because we've read him likeover a year's period of time in
(23:26):
notes from the woodshednothing's working, I can't do it
, what's wrong, something Ican't find it, blah, blah, blah.
And then he says I scrapped itall and went this way.
And then a few months later,what is?
I did it, I found it, Idiscovered it.
You know what I mean and so youknow that's that's hard, that's
a hard realization and it hastaken.
(23:47):
I mean, leonardo drew is in his, uh, young 60s and I think 63,
62, yeah, I would say.
He would say I'm stilldiscovering it, yeah, yeah, and
I would be empty without thefeeling of still discovering it.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Seven years, right Seven years from him making that
decision that it took him tomake what he decided was a
finished successful piece.
Number eight was the title ofthat first piece and he jokes
about that in one of the talks.
Obviously, obviously, if thefirst one that I did was number
eight, obviously there wereseven at least seven before that
(24:22):
came before it and they're allin there.
It's that absolute commitmentto the work and to the chase,
with the hope and the beliefthat there will be something on
the other side.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
One of my favorite things about Drew I don't think
really get into this, so I hopethat you guys really dig into it
when you listen to any of theseinterviews and more interviews
from Leonardo is he doesn'ttitle his work.
He leaves that up to the viewer.
And now I'm not that artist,I'm totally different.
I want I believe I want my workto have context in the title.
(24:58):
So oftentimes my titles areparagraphs long, or really, or
four or five sentences in yourtitle.
He's all the words Um.
And I think that's for me alsoas a poet, and a lot of my work
is based on poetry and differentthings that I've written in
memories.
I would do want some context inthere.
Now, it's the viewer's choiceif they want to read the title
card first or look at the workfirst.
That's up to them.
(25:18):
Yeah, but for leonardo henumbers his pieces like just
like still just like clifford hesays right no, the work is what
you make of it, not what I makeof it.
But if you were wrapped upwithin the work, what I have in
it somewhere will be baked in.
But you're also now baking moreinto it than I could have ever
(25:40):
created, and I love that.
He even calls out critics andcurators as lazy for trying to
put into it what they reallythink in articles and in things
that cause the audience toalready have a view of what the
work may be without reallyseeing it.
And he calls that lazy on theirpart a lot of times.
(26:02):
But that's the thing that Ilove about his work too it's not
small, so you're not walking upto a tiny little piece.
Now I've seen some Drew pieces.
I actually was at Ruby City inSan Antonio, which is the
collection of the artist LindaPace and her museum of her
collection in San Antonio.
It's a wonderful collection,and I walked around the corner
(26:24):
and I saw this two-dimensionalwith some three-dimensional
objects, square piece on a wall,I think 74 by 74 inches, and I
went this looks really familiar,something about this piece, and
so I got up really close to itand I was like, is this a Witten
was?
The first thing I thought isthis a Jack Witten piece and it
was a Leonardo drew piece from1997 and it's glass and paint
(26:44):
and wood, but I could see in itwhere he's going.
Yeah, so you think of thatwhole journey through, and I
think it's titled.
It's number 59, all of his worknumbered, numbered, so that's
number 59.
I think he's at like 920 orsomething at this point, or 960,
I don't know what he's at.
Yeah, but you can see thisjourney now, when I stand in
(27:06):
front of these pieces and I'mgoing, you're it, you're
literally in it, like you can'tnot be in it.
So that causes you, like one ofLouise Bourgeois rooms, to have
to go inside this artist andinside this artist's thoughts
and mind.
But now you're having todecipher what it's doing to you,
(27:27):
being surrounded by it, and whothis artist is, what they may
be, I don't know.
It's just as a title person, Ilove that his work is not titled
.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Well, it's an experience, right?
I mean, you mentioned CliffordStill.
I'm going to be back in Denverin a couple of weeks, so I'll be
taking another fourth or fifthvisit through the Clifford Still
Museum, which I'm super excitedfor, but his work of course as
well is incredibly large.
It's an experience.
It's to be taken in, and so thelack of information about what
(28:00):
it may or may not be about isperfect.
It's exactly the way that it'ssupposed to be and the way the
artist intended it.
I want to share a quote wherehe talks about what do you say
to people who ask what thework's about?
Yeah, and this is his response.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Oh, this is what I'm saying.
Do not do this.
Oh, this is what I'm saying, donot do this.
That's me pushing a bale ofcotton To Jack Whitten's studio.
Jack was my teacher at CooperUnion and he had a studio on
Lisbon Art, which is here.
I was pushing 30 blocks from26th Street, so that's Canal
Street Will be the next block.
I'm already here on Broadway,headed towards Canal, and so
(28:37):
Jack was on Lisbon Art, which isright after Canal.
So I would push these bales ofcotton.
This guy was smart enough,because this is a political
statement right there, you know.
But this guy took that photo.
If I was smart enough I wouldhave set it up, but I did not
set that up.
But he saw that I was doingthis every other day, pushing
his bale of cotton.
You guys saw the cotton piecein there earlier.
That's how it got done.
(28:58):
That very piece is that one.
And but let's get to thatstudio shot.
That's it Ridiculous,ridiculous.
It's like come on, you thinking.
I mean like, about what I mean.
It's like you know what aquestion that's, that's the
self-explanatory, you know.
It's like okay, this has to go.
(29:19):
That's behind you, also needingattention, and you're like, oh
God, what's next?
But that's the truth.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
That's the photo, that's the truth Thinking.
So the question was what areyou thinking about when you're
making his work?
And then, for context, here itshows some photos of him in the
studio, just completely immersedand surrounded by materials and
any number of the seven cryingbabies that he talks about.
But it's just.
His response is so, it's soincredible.
Like what a question.
It's self-explanatory.
(29:52):
It's like, okay, this has to gohere and do you need attention?
You know it's, it's attendingto those, each of those, each of
those babies.
But I just, I love thatresponse.
We're close here, which is acouple more quotes that speak to
the way that Drew thinks aboutthe work and just kind of his
philosophy around the creativeprocess.
(30:14):
This is from that Art 21 videothat we mentioned before.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
We're all reaching.
I mean I'm not talking justabout artists, but I mean we all
are reaching.
As I'm creating, I know that Ihave the opportunity, whatever I
feel or know I make intomaterial.
We're all reaching.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Ty, not just with art .
We're all reaching.
We're all reaching Ty, not justwith art, we're all reaching.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Absolutely.
I agree with thatwholeheartedly and I think you
know that's human nature.
I think we were all born toreach and strive for something
and reach for something,whatever you think that might be
.
That's part of what thisjourney is and I think that's
something that I had completelytaken to my art.
Practice is that I want toreflect that same reach and that
(31:00):
same strive and push towardssomething you know, whether that
is existence or supernatural orspiritual that you may think
Like, I do think we're innatelycreated for that and that's
something that I 100% take intomy practice, and I really do
think that Leonardo does as well.
And I think, when you have thatside in you of that constant
(31:21):
reaching and searching forsomething, that should be
reflected in your work, whichmeans your work should not stop
growing, it should not stopchanging and it should not stop
evolving.
It should be in this constanttransformation, right this
catalyst of the story of acocoon, right the caterpillar
blooming into a butterfly.
(31:42):
I talked about this with myartist this last Saturday and
you have something that can't dovery much in the beginning the
caterpillar on a branch doesn'tgo very far, can't do too much,
can't move very fast, not goingto see very many things.
Then through this process, itnow transforms into something
(32:02):
over a period of time.
It's not overnight.
It takes some time for thatcocoon to build and for it to
change and metamorphosize insideit.
That's Leonardo's seven yearsright.
And then all of a sudden thatcocoon opens and he's able to go
and do whatever he wantsanywhere, and I just think
that's a beautiful thing.
That's how we should be in ourstudios.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
I have a thought on that, but I'm going to share one
more quote, and then we'llshare our final thoughts.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
As I'm moving closer and closer to answering
questions, at the same time I'mmoving further away from the
answers.
So all I have to do at thispoint is continue to sort of
place my body in the act ofattempting to know.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
I think that's a great quote for us to end on.
Absolutely so.
You know we like to try and attimes give people a whatever
tangible takeaway.
I think for me it would be.
Are you asking those questions?
No, are you spending time?
You are, dear listener, not you, ty Nathan Clark, but you too,
(33:16):
ty TNC.
Okay, listener, not you, tyNathan Clark, but you too, ty
TNC.
Are you seeking, are youreaching, are you receiving?
You know, ask that question inthe first part Am I seeking, am
I reaching, am I receiving?
You know spending time?
You know you and I are bothpretty dedicated journalers and
writers and processing ourexperience in some attempt, you
(33:38):
know, to make sense of things.
But that's a really goodintrospective question to bring
into that practice, whateverthat looks like for you.
But it's a.
It's a big challenge, you know,like we talked about before, am
I too comfortable, you know,and when I'm feeling
uncomfortable, while thatdoesn't change the, the
discomfort and that that is notan enjoyable feeling, oftentimes
(34:00):
embracing that discomfort aspart of the journey to get from
where we're at to where we'remeant to be your thoughts.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, and I think if you are starting to feel really
uncomfortable and stuck, switchit up.
Do something different for awhile.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Tie your hands behind your back.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Yeah, tie your hands behind your back, do something
totally random.
Go make some found objectpieces.
If you're a painter, if you'rean abstract painter, do a still
life, set up a still life inyour studio and go back to the
basics.
Just do something different fora little bit.
Sometimes we do need to justswitch it up and do something
different, and I think that'snot leaving the road you're on,
that's just assisting yourselfwith getting some, uh, some
(34:46):
breaths of fresh air to bringinto your space and your studio.
And I think Leonardo is a greatexample that he mastered
something.
It was very good at it, itcould have been very successful
in it, and he went oh, no, no, Iwant to go, I want to do this.
No, no, no, I want to go thisway.
I don't want to have my handstied anymore, I want to just
keep rolling and rolling androlling.
And so you know, I would sayhey, you just got to enter new
(35:11):
ideas and things regularly.
Regularly, not just once a year, not just twice a year.
While you're working on whatyou're working on, be messing
around with something else inthe studio, because I had just.
That quote is just so great, asI'm moving closer and closer to
answering questions, which he'sthrowing out a lot of questions
regularly.
You'll hear that when youlisten to him.
(35:32):
At the same time, I'm movingfurther and further away from
the answers because he's soreceptive to new ideas and new
thoughts and new things.
They're always coming in.
So each time stuff starts toget solved, he gets further away
from solving it because he'sconstantly entering in new
things.
And I would say, if you cantake anything from this episode,
take that into your studiopractice.
(35:55):
That way those walls stay openand they don't get closer and
closer and closer and startclosing you in.
So if you have the opportunityto go to a museum because you
live in a city where there aremuseums get online.
Go to their archive, see what'sin their collection, search for
Leonardo Drew, see if they havea piece.
If you're traveling to anothercity that has museums, do a
(36:16):
little search.
Who has Leonardo Drew's?
I'm telling you.
You're traveling to anothercity that has museums, do a
little search.
Who has leonardo drews?
I'm telling you here you'regoing to be blown away.
Even if you don't, even ifyou're like I don't even like
installation art, I don't you'regoing to be blown away.
I don't care, you need to gosee his work.
Somehow, if not, just getonline, do some searches, you're
, you're gonna yeah you're gonnalose it.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
He's incredible look at more art, listen to more
artists.
You know, don't take our wordfor it.
I mean what, you know, what,what?
Speaker 1 (36:41):
what are we?
Speaker 3 (36:43):
you know.
But but honestly, I mean all ofthe you know.
So we'll, we'll just share.
We'll share all of all of the,the, all of our sources in the
show notes here.
But the art 21 video isphenomenal.
A lot of our quotes were takenfrom that.
The Carrie Scott episode on herpodcast scene is phenomenal,
and there's a lot of other greatones out there as well, many of
which we referenced.
But just again, one of thereoccurring themes of the
(37:07):
podcast is just listen likediscover, you know, try to
really understand, and just geta that of that excitement, that
energy, that juice that comesfrom really understanding how,
not just art itself, but howartists think about their art,
how they approach you know,their, their practice.
(37:30):
I mean I'm I'll be able tofloat a good couple months just
on, just on all the researchthat we've done from this and
having this, having this, havingthis conversation as well, it's
, uh, it's, it's, it'sincredible.
So with that we'll wrap up.
Thank you so much for uh forlistening.
Thanks for hanging out.
Check us out on the uh onyoutube if you want to see.
Ty does an amazing job of theedit.
So if you're not going to doyour own homework, ty will
(37:52):
include some uh, some greatclips of different, uh,
different pieces of leonardoworking, as well as a lot of his
incredible finish work as well.
So with that, join us next timefor another episode of Just
Make Art Bye.
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