Coffee, rain, and a table full of half-built ideas set the stage for a candid deep dive into how artists actually move work forward in our second conversation at Poolhaus studio. We trade the comfort of endless polishing for a stubborn rule—get to the next step sooner—and unpack how that one shift stops overworking, preserves strong moments, and helps a real body of work take shape. Along the way, we turn useful decisions into mantras, write them on the wall, and repeat them when stamina dips. The goal isn’t perfection; it’s momentum with intention.
We also open the door on critique: how to build a trusted brain trust, weight feedback from mentors versus peers, and curate with clear eyes when your favorite new experiment ranks dead last. Likes are not the art world, and honest notes from people who know your context can be the difference between a scattered show and a resonant one. Confidence matters too—not as posturing, but as fluency in your own language. We talk about answering tough questions from curators, claiming simple choices with conviction, and studying both your work and the person making it.
Life intrudes. A recent loss in the recovery community brings the conversation to grief, meaning, and the privilege of making anyway. Borrowing strength from Nick Cave’s reflections on grief as an exalted, remaking state, we choose boldness over hesitation and practice that isn’t conditional on perfect circumstances. Stock your studio with wisdom like winter coats: books, notes, mentors, and sentences that steady you when the weather turns. Then finish the damn thing, explore the dancing sparks, and move to the next with courage and care.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with an artist who needs a nudge, and leave a quick review so more makers can find it. What mantra keeps you moving?
Send us a message - we would love to hear from you!
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@justmakeartpodcast @tynathanclark @nathanterborg
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:11):
We're back.
Here we are in my studio, daytwo.
I'm excited.
It is pouring rain outside.
And uh we were sitting outsidethis morning having coffee and
laughing, talking about art,making fun of uh art dealers
from early 1800s, Paris.
(00:31):
Yeah.
Uh yeah, just some fun storiesfor sure.
Some Gertrude Stein and Leostories, shopping and trying to
buy a Saison landscape, and theart dealer uh kept bringing them
uh apples.
Yeah.
Paintings of apples, paintingsof nudes, and Gertrude and Leo
laughing at Volaire.
And that these are the type ofthings that happen when artists
(00:52):
get together.
These things that should happen.
You should go back and talkabout funny stories from art
history.
At the Thai Nathan Clarkcompound.
That's right.
I think it's gonna be a goodday.
I think we've got some goodstuff to talk about.
I know you've got some stuffthat's jumping off in your head
this morning as we've beenitching to get in here.
So go for it.
SPEAKER_02 (01:13):
So I think the first thing I wanted to get into today
was um, and this is justsomething that we had talked
about when we were like, hey,let's do a couple of of episodes
in person since we're gonna be,you know, hanging out anyway,
was just kind of taking theapproach of what's been what's
been fresh for us, what are someaha moments or just sort of
light bulb realizations of like,oh, this is what works for me.
(01:35):
Yeah.
And understanding that, youknow, what works for one of us
may be transferable to others.
Maybe.
Um, and uh, if nothing else,just like all the stories that
we read of other artists andthat we talk about, living
living in and past, there'svalue in really, I think, being
a student of our own practiceand of our own process.
(01:57):
Yeah.
Because at the end of the day, Imean, that's the only thing we
really need to be experts on.
Yeah.
You know, yep.
It's fun to be in your studiohere to just kind of see even
the little, you know, nerdythings that only artists would
even pick up on or recognize,but how you got your cart
organized.
And I was playing with a littlecouple of little sculpture
models, and I didn't bring a uhwire cutting wire cutter.
(02:19):
I'm like, if I was Thai, wherewould I keep my wire cutters?
And I went right to it.
SPEAKER_01 (02:24):
So just channeled my inner TNC and was like, if I was
Thai, where would nice?
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
But anyway, so yeah, just kind of you know thinking
about you know what works for usand continuing to iterate and
refine that over time, I thinkis is super valuable.
So one of the things that Ithink about a lot is just the
value of making rules formyself.
I'm a big fan of rules that Iget to decide for me.
(02:51):
Much less a fan of rules thatare you know imposed on by
anybody or anything else,really, um, which is you know
probably why being an artistmakes a lot of sense.
But I think the the benefits ofyou know governing ourselves,
being aware of the things thatthat lend themselves into just
in terms of our our our wiring,our internal DNA, our
(03:13):
characteristics and characterthat work, and the things that
we need to sort of work against.
SPEAKER_03 (03:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:20):
You know, uh the the the the wild nature of the beast
that sometimes needs to bereined in.
So anyway, so for me, one of thebig moments that I had recently
was just the benefits of and theimportance for me of getting to
the next step sooner.
And so I'll just kind of sharehow this applies in my practice,
(03:43):
and I'm I'm curious to hear yourthoughts on it as well.
But like what I learned is thatI have a tendency to want to
overwork certain areas, or Ishouldn't even say overwork, but
spend way more time than isnecessary for something that may
very well be, uh, in my case,covered up, cut away, or or
(04:08):
blocked by another layer orelement on top.
SPEAKER_03 (04:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:12):
And so the rule that I've really been thinking about
is get to the next step sooner.
If I can get to the next stepsooner.
So rather than before I wouldprioritize, I would just and and
it's not, it was, it wasn't bad,but I would spend way more time
(04:32):
than necessary to get an elementor get a component of a piece,
you know, much further alongthan it needed to be, because it
hadn't yet met its partners inthis particular work, right?
And so instead of before, I'dwork something to 90-95%, which
created problems for me becausethen I would fall in love with
(04:54):
certain moments.
So you'd keep going.
Yep.
Yeah.
That may or may not serve thepiece as a role.
Right.
And so I would create someunnecessary dilemmas for myself
of like, oh, how do I retainthat moment there when it didn't
serve the composition overall orwhat I was trying to say with
that with that particular pieceas it moves further along.
(05:17):
So my new goal is if I can justget something two-thirds of the
way there, you know, 70, maybe80% of the way along.
And then knowing that I alwayshave the ability to, you know,
circle back once it comestogether to the components and
the areas and the moments thatare gonna shine, that are gonna
have a voice, you know, in thein the finished work.
(05:38):
That's that's really, reallyvaluable for me.
And so the value then is is thisfor me or are you gonna say this
out loud?
Okay, got it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:47):
And making notes on what you're saying in our shared
notes in real time.
A little BTS for the kids.
We're working out of a sharedGoogle document and I'm seeing
what Ty's writing.
I'm like, oh, is he telling menot to say this dirty word?
Stop talking.
Stop.
(06:07):
I want to be like, hey, listen,we we edit these, you know, we
can just cut stuff.
Do you want me to read this?
SPEAKER_00 (06:15):
Are you teleprompting me?
Oh, I feel like I'm that'sfunny.
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
I feel like I'm reading the news now.
That's good.
So for me, it's so once I thinkabout like what's a call it a
rule, call it a standard, callit a guideline, you know,
whatever.
But once I can identifysomething that is going to be
helpful for me, at least fornow, how can I turn that into a
mantra and something that I canremind myself of?
SPEAKER_03 (06:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:35):
You know, that that to me, I think is the is the
broad takeaway.
My specific rule may or may notapply to anybody else or or most
of anybody who's listening.
But the idea of once a decisionis made, once we identify
something about our practicethat is going that we believe is
going to be beneficial, to thenturn into something that I can
remind myself of over and over.
SPEAKER_01 (06:57):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (06:57):
Because I don't know about you, but I have a lot of
these moments where I'll bejournaling, like we talked about
in the last episode.
I'll be audibly processingsomething or capturing
something, be like, that's it.
And these moments of clarity arebrief.
Yeah.
They don't always sustainthrough the muck of the
day-to-day, right?
(07:17):
As we fatigue, as our staminawears down over the course of a
session.
Uh, I find it to be extremelyimportant to have certain
whatever positive phrases,mantras, things that I just kind
of lock in or remind myself of.
Sometimes I'll scrawl them on mystudio wall, which are much
dirtier than this beautifullypristine, clean uh church that
(07:38):
that we're in.
This this chapel to creationthat we're sitting in right now.
You know, so for me, so themantra, so the rule is get to
the next step sooner.
The mantra is just simply an Iam statement.
I am getting to the next stepsooner.
And I just repeat that to myselfout loud over and over again.
I reread it on the wall.
You know, it's right where Imake my coffee and where I where
(08:00):
I fix my meals and stuff in thestudio.
I see it right in front of me asI'm at the sink, you know, doing
dishes and that kind of thing.
And so that's really important.
So back to kind of somethingfrom our Jerry Saltz episodes
talking about how to be anartist, finish the damn thing.
SPEAKER_03 (08:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:15):
Just finish the damn thing.
You know, I mean, that's kind ofthe overarching principle here
that I'm really going for islike, finish the damn thing, get
to the next thing, right?
These couple little, you know,first couple sculptures that I
showed you last night.
It was, I mean, they'redefinitely pieces that I could
have and I suppose still couldspend way more time on, but it's
like, no, no, no.
(08:35):
They're they're as far as theyneed to be for what they were
intended to be, get to the next,get to the next, right?
SPEAKER_00 (08:41):
Well, and last just so everybody knows, like just
art life last night, you know,and we talk about this all the
time.
Find those art partners, findthose art friends out there.
You've got to have some.
Yeah.
You know, and sometimes there'swonderful conversations,
sometimes there's awkward, hardconversations.
And I think finding artistfriends who will be completely
(09:01):
honest with you, there's nogreater thing than when somebody
tells me that's not working.
Right.
Or why are you going that way?
And then you go, had no idea.
Yeah.
Or, yep, that is what I wasdoing.
You know, and so last night,Nathan and I are looking at his
sculptures and we were having areally, you know, deep, honest
conversation on, you know, whatdo you think?
(09:23):
Are these working?
What's happening?
And I'm telling him my view,yeah, what I think.
Hey, this is what I see rightnow.
This is where I really see yougoing, but what are you doing
here?
Why are these things?
What is it, the representationthat's in your head here?
Where are you?
And we had an awesomeconversation of this, that,
that, where to go, how to look,what are these things?
(09:45):
And, you know, I I know lookingback when I didn't have those
relationships, it was like, youknow, I was on the farm and a
chicken with my head cut off,and I was just running around
like aimlessly going, is thisworking?
Does I think I think I likethis?
And then at the end of the day,I actually wasn't working at
all.
Right.
You know, because I didn'treally know, I didn't have good
advice from the right people onwhat's happening that I could
(10:08):
then take to my garage and go,okay, let's kind of look at
these areas now and gather, andthen and I'll finish the damn
thing.
I've heard from uh countlessartists about the struggle with
finishing a painting.
Yeah.
And I I mean, I've had artistsin my program who have been
working on a certain painting ortwo paintings for five months,
(10:31):
six months, you know, and notlike there's something mentally
sometimes a hurdle that artistshave to get over that to be okay
with listening to the worksaying I'm done.
Yeah.
And there's just some for someartists, there's a mental
blockade of I've just got to getto that perfect spot for the
painting to be done.
(10:51):
Paintings are never finished,right?
Who I forget who said thatpaintings are never finished,
they're only abandoned.
unknown (10:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:56):
Right.
It's like because every work ofart that we make in our
lifetime, we can look at and dosomething different.
Yeah.
So we have to be okay withmoving on to the next thing.
And one of my favorite storiesis from the Spanish artist Joe
Miro, who's one of my heroes,and he was 21 years old in
Spain, and he's in his journals,he's talking about working on a
certain painting thousand over athousand times.
(11:18):
So I think he says, I completedthis painting a thousand times
this summer.
And it was, and he's talkingabout how difficult it's been to
finish this painting.
Right.
Well, you fast forward in hisjournals.
I think this goes as 1921 to1926.
So I think he's now in hismid-20s, and he says, I've now
completed hundreds of paintingsthis year.
(11:41):
So he's gone from this point ofand he talks about the wonder of
creating a body of work.
Right.
And he talks about how much he'slearning about the work in this
process from going from work towork.
So he's past the hurdle of notbeing able to finish a piece.
(12:01):
And he's realizing that no piecewill ever be perfect.
Yeah.
But the only way to getperfection within the work is to
keep jumping from piece to pieceto piece to piece.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (12:12):
Well, and and do you think it's that that's a product
of learning that it's it'sreally the the most we'll be
able to do is maybe makesomething five percent better at
best, maybe ten.
Or even maybe regress from whereit was at one point.
(12:32):
And I it's like so I think aboutlooking back at at previous
work.
You got some incredible piecesin in the house from you know
different uh different phases ofyour of your career.
And I I guess uh let me put thisin the in the form of a question
for you.
When you look back at some ofthe pieces that still today
you're like, yeah, that you thatyou really enjoy looking at the
(12:54):
most that you feel arestrongest.
Can you remember and think backto when you were making them?
If in the moment you were like,oh, this is the one, or have
they sort of presentedthemselves to be stronger over
time?
SPEAKER_00 (13:10):
In other words, did you know in the moment or
there's one I would say there'sa few that I knew in the moment,
but many that have grown overtime and have their purpose in
place in that line of work.
And I think it's uh DavidBayless and Ted Orland that said
in Art and Fear, the enormousamount of work that you make in
your lifetime is for the fewthat's sore.
(13:32):
Right.
And so, but I think I've grownreally comfortable with that and
being okay with knowing that themajority is gonna be okay.
SPEAKER_02 (13:40):
And because it takes an enormous amount of work to
get the few that's sore, the themore quickly we can get to
making enormous amounts of work,the better.
SPEAKER_00 (13:50):
Yeah, and I think the things that you said
earlier, kind of talking aboutyour mantras and the things you
need to put in place foryourself.
The goal of an artist is to makegreat work.
But I think the other goal ofthe artist in that process is
learning who you are as anartist.
And that doesn't just mean yourwork.
Yeah, you, the person.
What do you need for you to makethe best work you can make?
(14:13):
That's not just time in thestudio.
That's learning who you are.
Yeah.
How do I operate best?
How can I put out the most workI can put out?
How can I sustain a great amountof focus and whatever time I
have to focus?
Yeah.
And then putting those things inplace to keep you there.
Because for any of us that haveour routine or have our
(14:35):
discipline set in the way thatwe do things, we know once we
leave that, things are a mess.
Yeah.
When we step out of that normalroutine, we step out of those
rules or mantras or things youhave in place, however loose or
however tight, once we'reremoved from that, it's a mess
to get back into it.
(14:55):
Sure.
And I think that's part of theproblem too for so many of us as
young artists in career youth isjust bouncing in every now and
then to do stuff kind ofhalf-ass or not really focused
or with too much frustration.
It's hard to really create workand be okay with what you've
(15:15):
made to move on to the nextthing.
So really finding out who youare is part of the process as
well and how you need tooperate.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:24):
I think I wanted to circle back to something you
said before around having othertrusted friends whose critique
and feedback, whose honestcritique and feedback that you
can, you know, that you're, thatyou're able and willing to
receive.
I think that goes back to alsoidentifying the a trusted
(15:47):
relationship where you know thatlike what you're going to be
hearing is coming from a placeof support and also context.
Somebody who's, you know, knowsenough about what you've been
doing to be able to, you know,give that, give that feedback.
And also, you know,understanding when a good time
is to ask for that.
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Yeah, because we're all scared when we ask.
For sure.
There's no way that no artist isnot, does not have one ounce of
fear when they go to thattrusted person and go, Totally,
hey, here's my new body of work.
Tell me what you think.
Yeah.
Because you're hoping you're onthe right track.
Totally.
Because if not, you're goingback to the studio and going,
(16:28):
Well, shit, do I start all overagain?
Yeah.
Or are they wrong?
Right.
There's even fear in thatmoment.
Yeah.
Are they wrong?
I mean, there was a time whenthis was a few years ago, I'm
sure you remember this, when Ihad a solo show and I had a new
body of work.
I had those pieces with thefolds, sculptural paintings with
(16:50):
other work.
Yep.
And I sent out what I call to mybrain trust, trusted artists,
trusted friends.
And it was a PDF that had allthe work in that body of work.
Yeah.
And I asked everybody to let meknow which pieces you feel are
the strongest and which piecesyou feel are the weakest.
Right.
So then I took that and I thinkI sent it to about 55 people.
(17:13):
Old professors, uh, mentors,artists from my program, other
artists' friends.
And what and then I took a PDFand I put all the pieces on it
and I hash marked all of themall the way through.
Yep.
And it helped me curate.
Yeah.
Number one, because I wascurating my own show.
(17:34):
It helped me curate the work,but also gave me a really good
sense of is the new stuffworking?
Because I had very new ideaswith old ideas.
And it was really interesting tome that all the new ideas were
the lowest of the selectionsfrom people.
And all the older ones were theones that everybody gravitated
(17:56):
towards.
Which, as we know, Nick Cavessays, new work is always most
difficult for the existingaudience.
Yeah.
Because they're used to whatthey know.
Yes.
And my my men, one of mymentors, the Japanese American
artist Mako Fujimura said, Ilike the folded pieces, they're
(18:17):
very new and I don't thinkthey're fully developed yet.
So your older work fullydeveloped and feels very strong
because you know what you'redoing.
I'm not saying don't show thenew ones, but if you do show
them, make sure the older workis the most prominent in the
space.
Right.
And the new ideas are in a placewhere people can see them, but
(18:38):
they're not the focus.
So it was really interesting totake all those things and then
go back to the studio and lookat it.
Yeah.
But it was also really sucked.
SPEAKER_02 (18:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:48):
Because I was so fucking excited about the new
pieces.
Right.
And there was one in there inparticular that was my absolute
favorite out of anything I did.
And it ranked the lowest of anypiece on there.
Yeah.
So you've got all thesecompeting feelings now that you
go back into the studio with nowwhat do you do?
SPEAKER_02 (19:09):
Right.
Well, and that so that's areally important point, is is
also knowing when to, you know,listen and identify, okay, this
is, you know, stamped in stoneversus, okay, this is this is a
perspective.
Yep.
You know, but it's not, it'sit's your work.
(19:30):
Yep.
You're still the expert on yourwork, you know.
To your point about that feelingof vulnerability, I mean, as
well as as you and I know eachother and as as much as I trust
you, I I definitely had thatfeeling, you know, last night
with the the photos and videosthat that I had you, you know,
take a look at of just like, allright, you know, and and that
that hope, like, oh, am I am Ionto something?
(19:51):
But just to, you know, be betransparent, like there
definitely is that moment.
There's a reason why it madesense for us to do that last
night versus right before welike I had a chance to go back,
you know, go back to my room andlick my wounds and you know,
tell myself it was gonna beokay.
You weren't that harsh and itwasn't that bad.
And it was it's also very, youknow, but that but that's the
point, right?
It is not to not to always justget the the the high fives and
(20:15):
the hey you're you you're doinggreat, keep going.
SPEAKER_00 (20:18):
Great work, right?
Which is that that's why I callInstagram the false narrative.
100%.
Right.
It's a it's a myth.
It's a false narrative that yourwork is on the right track
because you get you put up apiece and you get a thousand
likes, then you put up anotherpiece and you get five.
I mean, it's a false narrative.
It's a people who like art, butit is not the art world.
(20:42):
Yeah.
Unless the five galleries you'redreaming to get into all like
the piece now, you're okay.
I'm on there.
But for the most part, it's no,it's what people know and what
they see regularly.
So they so that's like thatfalse narrative.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:56):
Do you I've got a question for you?
It's funny you bring up whenwhen you when you had sent that
out because as I was looking atsome of those, I was remembering
when, and I I don't think I'veseen all at least all five of
those in person.
I was remembering when I waslooking at them on the PDF and
thinking about that.
My question for you is do youhow do you weight right?
(21:18):
Like something coming from Mako,obviously is you gotta weight
that heavier than someone fromme who you whatever.
You know what I'm saying?
A mentor versus so how do youweight the feedback?
Do you?
I guess it'll start.
SPEAKER_00 (21:33):
No, I no, I definitely do because I, you
know, I would go through and I'dgo, okay, well, Nathan, uh, V,
um Andre, who's in your programwith you in Germany, uh, you
know, Moxa had, you know,Allison had all these people
that I trust, right, as well.
And then I had some people thatare deep in the art world,
(21:55):
right?
Museum artists, mid-career, verysuccessful known artists, right,
with their feedback.
So there is a separation of wow,okay, Nathan loved these.
Well, makes sense.
I know why Nathan would likethese four more than others.
Sure.
And there were one, I rememberwhat everybody liked to today,
out of those 50, whatever.
(22:16):
There are pieces that you likedthat not everybody else liked.
There are pieces that V lovedthat nobody else liked.
Right.
But I know your tastes, I knowher.
So I was kind of, okay, thatmakes sense that they would
gravitate towards these.
So then, yeah, I do have to kindof separate and go, okay, now I
have this group of artists herewho are lecturing on art, who
(22:37):
are curating shows and seeingthings.
And I go, okay, well, I knowwhy.
I don't really know why.
I don't have a read on theirthings that like I do some of
these others.
So then I that's when I go backand I put that work in the
studio.
Yeah.
And I pull my chair out and Iget my coffee and I have their
notes printed off.
(22:59):
Right.
And I'm looking at all thehashtags that I have in people's
names and circles, and I havenotes everywhere.
And I'm going, and I literally,so then after I did that, and
I'd look at all the work and go,agree, agree, disagree.
I think whatever so-and-so saidwas only that way because of
(23:20):
what they've been working withover the last year or two as a
curator or whatever.
Right.
They're it's not something theylike.
So it's literally theanopinionated don't like that
stuff.
Yeah.
More than, well, it's reallyraw, these moments, this is new,
the ideas aren't really fullyfleshed out.
It was more like they just don'tlike it.
So I was able to separate, butthen there are ones that I just
(23:40):
don't, I don't know.
No idea.
Yeah.
But it forced me to sit with itagain, look at it.
Then I took my sheet and Icurated the show around
everything, including myself.
Yeah.
Because there were pieces thatpeople did not like that I still
included in.
I think I had 40 pieces and Ineeded 23 for the show or
(24:02):
something.
So there were pieces left outthat were more popular than
others because I felt sostrongly confident about those
pieces.
I wanted to make sure they wereshown.
Makes sense.
Yeah.
Before we jump to a nextsection, there's a word I want
to go back to that you saidearly on that to me is like a
bad word.
Yeah.
It's a it's a dirty word.
(24:23):
It's a naughty word.
SPEAKER_02 (24:24):
Not the naughty word that you were.
It's funny.
You so you beat you beat me tothe expletive in this episode.
I I do need to reference thefact that you threw me under the
bus at dinner last night.
And you said, you made it seemas though I was the body mouse
half of this equation.
And I said, You beat me to it.
SPEAKER_00 (24:42):
At dinner with family and friends last night, I
said that uh one of my nephew'sfriends is here with us hanging
out, and and we were talkingabout the show.
I said, Yeah, well, Nathan's gota really bad mouth.
And he said, Oh, so is itexplicit?
Does that hurt your uh any ads?
Your monetization.
Your monetization?
And I said, Oh no, we're notmonetized.
I said, and he's the one thatalways tusses.
(25:05):
So anyways, so here you said abad word before me today, and
that's the word overwork.
Overworking is an artist wordsnightmare.
We all know that.
We get to the point where wereally kind of like the work,
yeah, and it's feeling good.
And then for some reason, ourhead is like, well, you need to
(25:25):
add more.
Well, just do these things now.
Yeah.
And I think there is an artistpersona like fight.
Like, right, it's like the oldcartoon with the angel and the
devil on your shoulders, right?
And I put it in the last edittwo episodes ago, I made sure to
put that in the in the YouTubevideo.
But it's like there's almostlike there's something arguing,
(25:47):
oh no, no, it's not enough.
And I've had artists in myprogram where they've created
something really incredible,it's very minimal.
But for some reason in theirhead, they think, well, it can't
really be a painting if I don'tput a whole lot of stuff on
there.
Right.
Or a gallery won't really wantit if it just has four marks and
a bit of red.
And I say, Well, were youconfident in that piece at that
(26:09):
moment?
Absolutely.
Well, then why in the worldwould you think that a gallery
or somebody wouldn't accept itif you're fully confident in it?
And then what happens?
You start to add and you losewhat you had, so you keep adding
more to try to get back.
Yeah.
Keep adding, keep doing more andmore.
And it's so I think that's why,and we talk about this all the
time sitting and looking andlistening.
(26:32):
We probably say this in everyother episode, because it's that
important.
Yeah, artists, it's thatimportant to put a chair in the
middle of wherever you are, inyour house, in your studio,
outside, and line the work upyou're working on, finished,
unfinished, and spend timelooking at it and studying it
(26:53):
because there are gonna bemoments where the work is there,
yeah, and then you push it pastand it's no longer there
anymore.
So just I hate that word.
I just because I when I overworksomething, I'm sick.
Yeah, I'm literally sick inside.
I've got some pieces in herethat I was working on, and I
felt really good about it.
And I thought, what about thisnew idea?
(27:16):
Now, I don't think an overworkedpainting is a waste.
No.
But what I'm saying is spendtime listening so that you cut
that down and have more finishedwork over here, and you're
moving on to the new idea andthe next piece.
SPEAKER_02 (27:31):
And that really to bring everything full circle,
that really does come back tobeing becoming an expert on your
own work.
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Because that I think is whatwill allow us to be less
susceptible to believing the liethat maybe just a little bit
more will make it better.
Yep.
unknown (27:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:51):
Yeah, I had a I had a show years ago, and I was
doing a lecture with a uh museumcurator, and she was walking the
show with me and asking a numberof questions and petty freaking
questions, like big time curatorquestions, and some I could
answer and some I couldn't.
And that that is what pushed meeven more to be an expert of my
(28:17):
own work.
There were questions I shouldhave been able to answer.
There were some I was caught offguard and not ready to answer
because I was like, how does sheknow that?
You know, about my work.
And so I had that nervousness,yeah, and I couldn't, I was
fumbling and I figured it'sbetter just to not talk and say
(28:39):
I don't have an answer, which Ithink is fine because you don't
want to just make something up,which people do a lot in the art
world because it's easy to makestuff up.
But I want to be so educatedabout my work that when I'm
nervous and I get a question,I'm like, damn, really, I can
answer it without being nervousand not fumbling.
(28:59):
And so I spend all that timereally looking at my work.
And that's why go going andlooking at others' work is so
important too, because it givesyou an understanding about your
own.
Looking at work you like,looking at work you don't like,
and really looking at it, askingquestions, writing about it, you
know, and then going back toyour student, looking at your
work.
Now you're even more informed.
Yep.
Because there's gonna be a dayin time, I hope, for all of you,
(29:23):
where you have that person thatyou're you look up on a pedestal
that starts asking you questionsabout your work.
You want to be so confident inwhat you know.
Not just person, but people.
You sent you sent that PDF to55.
I did, I did.
So, but that's why it's it'simportant to take time and
really look at your work.
(29:44):
So you don't overwork it, but sothat you're really educated
about your work.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (29:49):
And you can answer those hard questions.
And then also understanding thatat the end of the day, we are
the preeminent expert on ourown.
We are the expert.
You are the expert on your work.
So as much as you believe in andtrust the input, the feedback,
the critiques that you'regetting, when it's all said and
done, you get to decide what todo with what you've received.
SPEAKER_00 (30:10):
Well, and you need to answer in confidence.
Cause sometimes we get thequestion, Well, what is this?
Why is this?
And you go, I just did it.
There's no meaning behind that.
That's just what I did.
Yeah.
But when you can answer that inconfidence, it's a lot different
than, well, I don't know, I justkind of did it.
Right?
When you start to echo anon-confidence in your work,
(30:34):
that makes the curator becomeless confident about looking at
and talking about your work.
Yeah.
And that's not a word to say.
That's not a like lofty, snobbything for a curator to hear you
non-confidently talk about yourwork and then be turned off.
(30:55):
Yeah.
That's not this like upperechelon, snobby, like, oh, this
artist doesn't know what they'reno, it's your confidence is
making them not confident.
Right.
Right.
So even if you're saying, nope,I just, that's just what I did.
I grabbed pink, I like pink, Igrabbed it, I put it on the
brush, and I slap it on and itworked.
(31:15):
Yeah.
Boom, next painting.
Yeah.
Right.
And then other times it's well,pink rep actually for me
represents X.
And my gestures are because ofmy heroes and working those two
things together.
And so there's there'sdifferences in those things, but
we want to be able to speak withconfidence.
Yeah.
Because you are the expert.
You need to sound like it.
(31:35):
Yeah.
So even if you're not confident,do it with confidence, is what
I'm hearing.
Yeah, even if you're notconfident, I mean I was nervous.
Be unconfident confidently.
Yeah.
I mean, and I was I was scaredin that moment.
I have somebody here that I'mlike, wow, their resume.
I want you to curate my showssomeday type moment, right?
(31:56):
So I'm a little non-confident inmyself in my first solo show
with this person literallywalking every painting with me
in the room.
I didn't know that washappening.
Right.
We were doing a lecture.
She wanted to stop by and seethe work.
Hey, let's walk the room.
What?
Right?
And then I'm getting everyquestion in the world.
(32:16):
Yeah.
She knew my heroes by looking atmy work.
Sure.
She called them out.
You love Twambly, you loveTapez, you love, right?
It was there.
And I could confidently say,yes, I do, major influence in
these four pieces.
Right.
Yeah.
And then, you know, then she gotinto archival.
Yeah.
(32:36):
And then you're really gulping.
Gulp, gulp, gulp.
Yeah.
So anyway, that's a story foranother day.
Okay, Nathan, life.
We're all human beings.
We all have these goals with ourart, with our work, and
sometimes life gets in the way.
(32:56):
How we deal with life, ouremotions, difficult situations,
hard things that happen to us onthe outside, we still have to be
in the studio.
How we deal with those thingsand those emotions can get in
the way of our work or can feedinto what we're creating.
(33:21):
And I know that you lost afriend recently that has been
really difficult for you.
And I know you called me thatday and we talked about his
emotion, very emotional moment.
And how have you learned?
(33:42):
And I know we've talked aboutthis a little bit in our trauma
episode on Louise Bourgeois.
So Nathan and I do it's almost atwo-hour episode on Louise
Bourgeois from I think lastyear, where we really kind of
talk about healing and traumafrom her perspective and then
our lives.
But this is recent.
Like you're you're in a momentwhere you're experimenting and
you're creating new ideas andnew things based on where you're
(34:03):
going with your work.
And then it's like dead stopemotionally.
Because work-wise, you've beenon a high.
You had solo show in Germanylast year, first major solo
show.
You've got work changing,developing, and then all of a
sudden, like, how do you dealwith that?
SPEAKER_02 (34:22):
Yeah, I mean, it's something you said as you were
uh setting that up.
We still have to be in thestudio.
I think it's important toreframe that with we still get
to be in the studio.
We still get to be still get tobe in the studio.
Because it's we have thetremendous gift of being uh
(34:47):
engaged in something where weget to take whatever's happening
and do something with it.
SPEAKER_00 (34:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:56):
You know, so comparing my recent experience
with what it would have beenlike in a more you know
traditional JOB, it would havebeen much more difficult to
focus on whatever, you know,bullshit task or meeting or what
whatever the thing you knowwould have been, as opposed to
(35:19):
no, it's an opportunity to beable to take what we're
experiencing on on every part ofthe spectrum of human experience
and and actually take it intothe work, you know.
So I think that the I guess I'llI'll share a bit of the
backstory.
So this is a friend um fromrecovery.
You know, I'm I'm I'm I'm activein the recovery community.
(35:42):
I've been sober for a long time.
I work with a lot of otherpeople recovering from
addiction.
And this was somebody who I whoI knew well, who I was working
with, and um and he had almostthree years of sobriety and he
relapsed and he overdosed, andhis his girlfriend found him in
his in his bathtub.
And um so I was shocked.
(36:06):
I I did not see it coming.
There's certainly people that uhyou know I I know well in that
space where I would bedevastated to get that call, but
wouldn't be shocked.
This was one where I wasabsolutely blown away.
I did not see it coming at all.
And so just working throughthose feelings and that
experience of grief and loss,and then also figuring out what
(36:31):
do I do with this?
I think is probably where whereI would how I would answer that
question.
Like I think that there isutility to everything that we're
experiencing.
And I go back to this is wherehaving a deep well of
information, of, of, of books,of of peers, of friends, of of
(36:57):
information, and and I'm gonnatake that a step further and
call it wisdom, yeah, you know,to really go back to to anchor
us into you know what's true andwhat what is to be done with
what's in front of us.
You know, we we talk about this,and it's funny, I I I I um I
wanted to talk about this bookanyway.
(37:18):
I didn't bring it with me.
Of course you've got it.
And I literally, the the excerptthat I wanted to read from it
today, I turned right to thatpage.
Like it literally right opened.
And you've got a number of forthose of us, for those of you
watching, look at ties.
I mean, this is this issomething.
I mean, look at this colorcoding.
I mean, this is this is somebodywho's intentionally going
through a book and do thesecolors mean anything?
SPEAKER_00 (37:39):
Yeah, it's just hoping that Nick Cave is
watching and he's thinking thatI'd like studying every word
that he says.
SPEAKER_02 (37:44):
And which clarify we're talking about Nick Cave
the musician, not not the notthe sculptor.
Um but uh so this is from Faith,Hope, and Carnage, um, which is
a tremendous book that we'vereferenced more than once um
already.
So he writes All my songs arewritten from a place of
spiritual yearning because thatis the place that I permanently
(38:05):
inhabit.
To me personally, this placefeels charged, creative, and
full of potential.
And so this is somebody who'slost two sons, tragically,
young.
I think both, one was I think inhis teens and one was maybe in
his early 20s, I want to say.
Yeah.
And so this is somebody who'sdealt with with grief at about
(38:28):
the deepest level.
I mean, I don't think there'sanything worse than losing a
child.
And having watched my my parentsgo through that, I can, you
know, just from an observation,you know, close-up perspective,
I can I can attest to that.
He goes on to write (38:45):
perhaps grief can be seen as an exalted
state where the person who isgrieving is the closest they
will ever be to the fundamentalessence of things.
Because in grief, you becomedeeply acquainted with the idea
of human mortality.
You go to a very dark place andexperience the extremities of
your own pain.
You are taken to the limits ofsuffering.
(39:07):
As far as I can see, there's athere is a transformative aspect
to this place of suffering.
We are essentially altered orremade by it.
Now, this process is terrifying,but in time you return to the
world with some kind ofknowledge that has something to
do with our vulnerability asparticipants in this human
drama.
Everything seems so fragile andprecious and heightened, and the
(39:29):
world and the people in it seemso endangered and yet so
beautiful.
And so I spent time with thisbook.
I reflected on it, journaled onit, like trying to take what I'm
feeling, take what I'mexperiencing, and take it into
the work, you know.
And so to me, it comes back tothis idea of, you know, to his
(39:53):
point about that heightenedsense of mortality.
I think a lot about what if thiswas the last thing I ever made.
SPEAKER_03 (39:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:00):
You know, and how I really want to treat every day
in the studio, everything I'mworking on as though I'm gonna
have 80 more years to make work,yeah, and as though this could
be my last day in the studio.
To keep one foot planted in inboth of those spaces, I think is
very healthy, you know, for me.
(40:20):
And so in a phase, in a in aperiod where I am doing things
that are completely new, I tryto channel that into a place of
sort of, I guess, fearlessnessof, hey, what if what if today's
my day?
What if tomorrow's you know myday?
What would I want to have atleast made or tried to put out
(40:40):
into the world or leave behindfor whoever might find it, you
know?
Um, I think that's that's that'sreally, really important.
So just that that mindset oflike, we don't have to go back
in the studio, we don't have tokeep working, we get to keep
working.
So whatever we're experiencing,taking that into the work and
trying to channel it in a usefulway.
(41:02):
We we get to be in a in a place,we get to do something where we
actually can can use whatever'saround us, whatever we're
experiencing, and not just bedependent on, oh, I'm feeling
good.
It's 72 degrees outside, youknow, everyone in my world has
been nice to me so far today.
(41:22):
Traffic was smooth, I sleptgreat last night, everything.
No, we can't our work can't beconditional.
Our work can't be can't be basedon things, you know, being right
and being perfect.
And furthermore, I think usingwhat's in front of us to
whatever good purpose we can isreally, really important.
SPEAKER_00 (41:41):
Well, I think what you said there about the work
can't be conditional.
The the time, the process cannotbe conditional.
Like that's if you want yourwork to be strong and to
possibly stand for a long time,you can't put conditions around
(42:02):
when and how you work.
Yeah, you have to find a way tobe disciplined with getting to
work in the face of anything.
Because shit happens.
Yeah.
This is like Nick Cabe justsaid, we're all playing a part
in this drama called humanity.
(42:22):
Right.
Every one of us at differentlevels, with different
possibilities, with differentthings happening to us or not
happening to us.
So we have to be unconditionalin our work.
Yeah.
In the face of anything.
And I think the mindset of youswitching, me saying we have to
(42:43):
get in the studio, that we getto be in the studio, that we get
to make art.
I think that's a fabulousmindset to always remember in
the face of any adversity or anyrejection or anything that may
be coming.
Gosh, well, I'm glad I get to gomake work today.
Because I I know myself, I don'tknow how I could handle anything
(43:06):
very difficult if I wasn't anartist.
Right.
I don't I don't know how otherpeople do it because I've always
had the ability to go paint orsculpt when something terrible
happens and use and channel.
SPEAKER_02 (43:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (43:24):
Right.
Now I've definitely channeledand handled those things in the
very wrong, wrong ways in thepast, but I've still been able
to go in and take some of thatout and put it into work.
Right.
So I that it's just I it's amagical, magical, supernatural
thing.
Yeah, absolutely.
So learn how to make work in theface of all those things.
SPEAKER_02 (43:47):
I would even say to take that a step further, it's
it comes down to acknowledgingwe cannot, of course, control
what happens to us, whathappens, you know, in our world
or to the people that we careabout, but we do get to decide
what that means.
Yeah.
We get to assign meaning to thethings that happen to us.
(44:08):
And so in this case, the meaningthat I chose to assign was I'm
going to be bold, I'm going tobe more fearless, I'm not going
to, you know, hold back.
Yeah.
And what the work may have beenabout initially.
I'm I'm not trying to set asidemy thoughts and feelings and
emotions around that.
(44:30):
I'm channeling it into what I'mdoing.
Because any anything that wouldcome, especially in in in that
period, anything that would comefrom the work from a place of
trying to let mecompartmentalize and set that
aside, would have been anauthentic to where where I was
actually at in that moment.
And I think the highest callingfor all of us is to make the
(44:51):
most authentic work that we canbased on where we are and what's
in front of us at that time.
SPEAKER_00 (44:57):
Yeah.
I'm 50 years old.
I have no, I have no idea howmany years I have left on this
earth.
It's probably less than I'velived so far.
Sure.
So when I'm in the studio andI'm making something that I am
going, don't know if I likethis.
I have no idea where it's going.
Well, then I have I'm stillfollow the course.
Yeah.
Because I don't, I want to, it'staking me somewhere.
(45:19):
It's telling the work's tellingme to go this way.
So I've got to go that way.
Yeah.
Like you said, I don't know.
What if in a few months mytime's up and I didn't follow
the course and I'm just kind ofdiddling around.
Like, that's not how I, that's,but that's my chosen.
SPEAKER_02 (45:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:34):
I don't want to, I don't want to live that way as
an artist.
I want to always be drivingforward.
So even if the work's taking meto uncharted territory that
feels really uncomfortable andweird and not right, I have to
trust my own intuition that Iknow it's telling me to follow
the, follow its lead.
(45:55):
Right.
Because it's taking mesomewhere.
And I'd much rather go outhaving done that and what I may
leave behind doing that ratherthan just following a script.
SPEAKER_02 (46:09):
And having back to that idea of having a deep well
to pull from, we don't know whenwe're going to need these
things, but having them ready inadvance, you know, exposing in
the in this context, exposingourselves to real wisdom, great
thinkers that have come beforeus, and having those, those in
the in the arsenal to beapplied, you know, when when
(46:29):
things get get a little gnarlyand get a little rough.
In your guest room, you've gotyour winter coats hanging in
that closet, closet.
You don't need them right now,but you will.
Yeah.
And you already have them.
So that when the when the coldcomes, when the snow starts
flying, like you're you'reprepared.
(46:50):
You already have what you needto deal with the conditions that
are put in front of you that youcan't control, but you've got
them prepared.
You're you're ready.
You know?
And so that just goes to, again,something that a drum that we
continually beat on almost everyepisode, but continue to expose
ourselves to more ideas, moregreat thinkers, more things that
(47:11):
we may.
When I first read this, but Iwas like, that's a great idea.
I could relate to things in thepast, right?
But then something happens in mypresent, and it's like, oh yeah,
I've got that to pull from.
Yeah.
Let me let me revisit this.
And it takes on, of course, afull new life, a full new
meaning because it's there.
Yep.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (47:32):
A lot of good stuff today, Nathan.
I think, and I've got a lot ofthings I'm thinking about right
now, just in that conversation,and just being able to just
continue to shape my mindset.
SPEAKER_02 (47:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:44):
Because I don't know what's coming in the future, so
that I'm really focused today.
You know, I think that's part ofeverything that you and I talk
about a lot just on our own,too, is like be so focused on
today, what you're doing in thestudio.
Like we're looking towards whereour work's going.
We're following the lead of ourwork, where it's taking us, but
(48:04):
we don't know what tomorrowholds.
And so focusing on today.
And I know for you and I boththat's means our artwork, but
also means our family life.
It also means those things likegiving attention to and love and
nurturing our work, but also ourrelationships and our family
life and those things too.
And I think I just think that'sgreat for all of you just having
(48:25):
your head, like, what are youdoing today with your work?
Yeah.
What is your how much are youlearning?
How much you're willing tolisten and spend time really
cultivating your relationshipwith you as an artist and with
your work.
Figure those things out.
Sit down.
I I do a I do a practice withall the artists in my mentorship
(48:45):
program, and I have them writetheir own personal statement to
themselves early on in theprogram.
It's not an artist statement foryour website, it's a personal
statement for you.
Why are you making your art?
What is the purpose of yourselfmaking your art?
And what is your big dream foryourself?
Yeah.
It's that personal mantra.
What am I doing here?
What are you doing?
What am I about?
(49:06):
Yeah.
But right, so I that's somethingI just encourage you all to do
as we close the like do that.
Have you have you really hadthat conversation with yourself?
Have that conversation withyourself and then hold yourself
to it.
Yeah.
Shoot for the stars.
SPEAKER_02 (49:21):
But don't wait to keep making work.
Yeah.
These are these are exercisesthat evolve and change over
time.
And so understand that this isnot something that you have to
have dialed in and perfectbefore.
These are these are concurrentactivities.
Absolutely.
You know, so doing it and andand taking these ideas into the
(49:44):
work and then listening.
I've learned way more from thework than I have from what I sat
down to.
Both are important.
Right.
You know, but feeling like andI've I've fallen that trap at
times.
Okay, I've got to have thiswhole body of work.
I've got to have everythingdialed before I it's like, no,
no, no.
No.
It's we just have to have astarting point.
(50:04):
Yep.
And then doing both of thosethings side by side will
definitely support and enhanceone another as you go.
SPEAKER_00 (50:12):
Yeah, I think I think Miro said we need to
explore all of the dancingsparks of our souls.
And that was in that moment whenhe started making all the work.
Right.
He it he's exploring all of thedancing sparks of his soul, not
just the one, all of them.
So go do that.
Feels like a good place to stop.
Yeah.
(50:33):
Thanks for listening, everybody.
We hope you enjoy the episode.
If you have any questions, shootus questions.
We'd love to uh we'd love toanswer.
We need to do a QA episode atsome point coming up.
So if you have any questionsthat you're curious about, about
us as artists or about the artworld or anything, we'd love to
find answers for you.
(50:53):
If we don't know them, if weonly know a little bit, but we
will ask and we will try to getanswers from others.
Make up answer interesting, orwe will non-confinately,
confidently answer.
We're back.
Here we are in my studio, daytwo.
I'm excited.
It is pouring rain outside.
And uh we were sitting outsidethis morning having coffee and
laughing, talking about art,making fun of uh art dealers
from early 1800s, Paris.
(00:31):
Yeah.
Uh yeah, just some fun storiesfor sure.
Some Gertrude Stein and Leostories, shopping and trying to
buy a Saison landscape, and theart dealer uh kept bringing them
uh apples.
Yeah.
Paintings of apples, paintingsof nudes, and Gertrude and Leo
laughing at Volaire.
And that these are the type ofthings that happen when artists
(00:52):
get together.
These things that should happen.
You should go back and talkabout funny stories from art
history.
At the Thai Nathan Clarkcompound.
That's right.
I think it's gonna be a goodday.
I think we've got some goodstuff to talk about.
I know you've got some stuffthat's jumping off in your head
this morning as we've beenitching to get in here.
So go for it.
SPEAKER_02 (01:13):
So I think the first thing I wanted to get into today
was um, and this is justsomething that we had talked
about when we were like, hey,let's do a couple of of episodes
in person since we're gonna be,you know, hanging out anyway,
was just kind of taking theapproach of what's been what's
been fresh for us, what are someaha moments or just sort of
light bulb realizations of like,oh, this is what works for me.
(01:35):
Yeah.
And understanding that, youknow, what works for one of us
may be transferable to others.
Maybe.
Um, and uh, if nothing else,just like all the stories that
we read of other artists andthat we talk about, living
living in and past, there'svalue in really, I think, being
a student of our own practiceand of our own process.
(01:57):
Yeah.
Because at the end of the day, Imean, that's the only thing we
really need to be experts on.
Yeah.
You know, yep.
It's fun to be in your studiohere to just kind of see even
the little, you know, nerdythings that only artists would
even pick up on or recognize,but how you got your cart
organized.
And I was playing with a littlecouple of little sculpture
models, and I didn't bring a uhwire cutting wire cutter.
(02:19):
I'm like, if I was Thai, wherewould I keep my wire cutters?
And I went right to it.
SPEAKER_01 (02:24):
So just channeled my inner TNC and was like, if I was
Thai, where would nice?
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
But anyway, so yeah, just kind of you know thinking
about you know what works for usand continuing to iterate and
refine that over time, I thinkis is super valuable.
So one of the things that Ithink about a lot is just the
value of making rules formyself.
I'm a big fan of rules that Iget to decide for me.
(02:51):
Much less a fan of rules thatare you know imposed on by
anybody or anything else,really, um, which is you know
probably why being an artistmakes a lot of sense.
But I think the the benefits ofyou know governing ourselves,
being aware of the things thatthat lend themselves into just
in terms of our our our wiring,our internal DNA, our
(03:13):
characteristics and characterthat work, and the things that
we need to sort of work against.
SPEAKER_03 (03:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:20):
You know, uh the the the the wild nature of the beast
that sometimes needs to bereined in.
So anyway, so for me, one of thebig moments that I had recently
was just the benefits of and theimportance for me of getting to
the next step sooner.
And so I'll just kind of sharehow this applies in my practice,
(03:43):
and I'm I'm curious to hear yourthoughts on it as well.
But like what I learned is thatI have a tendency to want to
overwork certain areas, or Ishouldn't even say overwork, but
spend way more time than isnecessary for something that may
very well be, uh, in my case,covered up, cut away, or or
(04:08):
blocked by another layer orelement on top.
SPEAKER_03 (04:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:12):
And so the rule that I've really been thinking about
is get to the next step sooner.
If I can get to the next stepsooner.
So rather than before I wouldprioritize, I would just and and
it's not, it was, it wasn't bad,but I would spend way more time
(04:32):
than necessary to get an elementor get a component of a piece,
you know, much further alongthan it needed to be, because it
hadn't yet met its partners inthis particular work, right?
And so instead of before, I'dwork something to 90-95%, which
created problems for me becausethen I would fall in love with
(04:54):
certain moments.
So you'd keep going.
Yep.
Yeah.
That may or may not serve thepiece as a role.
Right.
And so I would create someunnecessary dilemmas for myself
of like, oh, how do I retainthat moment there when it didn't
serve the composition overall orwhat I was trying to say with
that with that particular pieceas it moves further along.
(05:17):
So my new goal is if I can justget something two-thirds of the
way there, you know, 70, maybe80% of the way along.
And then knowing that I alwayshave the ability to, you know,
circle back once it comestogether to the components and
the areas and the moments thatare gonna shine, that are gonna
have a voice, you know, in thein the finished work.
(05:38):
That's that's really, reallyvaluable for me.
And so the value then is is thisfor me or are you gonna say this
out loud?
Okay, got it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:47):
And making notes on what you're saying in our shared
notes in real time.
A little BTS for the kids.
We're working out of a sharedGoogle document and I'm seeing
what Ty's writing.
I'm like, oh, is he telling menot to say this dirty word?
Stop talking.
Stop.
(06:07):
I want to be like, hey, listen,we we edit these, you know, we
can just cut stuff.
Do you want me to read this?
SPEAKER_00 (06:15):
Are you teleprompting me?
Oh, I feel like I'm that'sfunny.
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
I feel like I'm reading the news now.
That's good.
So for me, it's so once I thinkabout like what's a call it a
rule, call it a standard, callit a guideline, you know,
whatever.
But once I can identifysomething that is going to be
helpful for me, at least fornow, how can I turn that into a
mantra and something that I canremind myself of?
SPEAKER_03 (06:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:35):
You know, that that to me, I think is the is the
broad takeaway.
My specific rule may or may notapply to anybody else or or most
of anybody who's listening.
But the idea of once a decisionis made, once we identify
something about our practicethat is going that we believe is
going to be beneficial, to thenturn into something that I can
remind myself of over and over.
SPEAKER_01 (06:57):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (06:57):
Because I don't know about you, but I have a lot of
these moments where I'll bejournaling, like we talked about
in the last episode.
I'll be audibly processingsomething or capturing
something, be like, that's it.
And these moments of clarity arebrief.
Yeah.
They don't always sustainthrough the muck of the
day-to-day, right?
(07:17):
As we fatigue, as our staminawears down over the course of a
session.
Uh, I find it to be extremelyimportant to have certain
whatever positive phrases,mantras, things that I just kind
of lock in or remind myself of.
Sometimes I'll scrawl them on mystudio wall, which are much
dirtier than this beautifullypristine, clean uh church that
(07:38):
that we're in.
This this chapel to creationthat we're sitting in right now.
You know, so for me, so themantra, so the rule is get to
the next step sooner.
The mantra is just simply an Iam statement.
I am getting to the next stepsooner.
And I just repeat that to myselfout loud over and over again.
I reread it on the wall.
You know, it's right where Imake my coffee and where I where
(08:00):
I fix my meals and stuff in thestudio.
I see it right in front of me asI'm at the sink, you know, doing
dishes and that kind of thing.
And so that's really important.
So back to kind of somethingfrom our Jerry Saltz episodes
talking about how to be anartist, finish the damn thing.
SPEAKER_03 (08:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:15):
Just finish the damn thing.
You know, I mean, that's kind ofthe overarching principle here
that I'm really going for islike, finish the damn thing, get
to the next thing, right?
These couple little, you know,first couple sculptures that I
showed you last night.
It was, I mean, they'redefinitely pieces that I could
have and I suppose still couldspend way more time on, but it's
like, no, no, no.
(08:35):
They're they're as far as theyneed to be for what they were
intended to be, get to the next,get to the next, right?
SPEAKER_00 (08:41):
Well, and last just so everybody knows, like just
art life last night, you know,and we talk about this all the
time.
Find those art partners, findthose art friends out there.
You've got to have some.
Yeah.
You know, and sometimes there'swonderful conversations,
sometimes there's awkward, hardconversations.
And I think finding artistfriends who will be completely
(09:01):
honest with you, there's nogreater thing than when somebody
tells me that's not working.
Right.
Or why are you going that way?
And then you go, had no idea.
Yeah.
Or, yep, that is what I wasdoing.
You know, and so last night,Nathan and I are looking at his
sculptures and we were having areally, you know, deep, honest
conversation on, you know, whatdo you think?
(09:23):
Are these working?
What's happening?
And I'm telling him my view,yeah, what I think.
Hey, this is what I see rightnow.
This is where I really see yougoing, but what are you doing
here?
Why are these things?
What is it, the representationthat's in your head here?
Where are you?
And we had an awesomeconversation of this, that,
that, where to go, how to look,what are these things?
(09:45):
And, you know, I I know lookingback when I didn't have those
relationships, it was like, youknow, I was on the farm and a
chicken with my head cut off,and I was just running around
like aimlessly going, is thisworking?
Does I think I think I likethis?
And then at the end of the day,I actually wasn't working at
all.
Right.
You know, because I didn'treally know, I didn't have good
advice from the right people onwhat's happening that I could
(10:08):
then take to my garage and go,okay, let's kind of look at
these areas now and gather, andthen and I'll finish the damn
thing.
I've heard from uh countlessartists about the struggle with
finishing a painting.
Yeah.
And I I mean, I've had artistsin my program who have been
working on a certain painting ortwo paintings for five months,
(10:31):
six months, you know, and notlike there's something mentally
sometimes a hurdle that artistshave to get over that to be okay
with listening to the worksaying I'm done.
Yeah.
And there's just some for someartists, there's a mental
blockade of I've just got to getto that perfect spot for the
painting to be done.
(10:51):
Paintings are never finished,right?
Who I forget who said thatpaintings are never finished,
they're only abandoned.
unknown (10:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:56):
Right.
It's like because every work ofart that we make in our
lifetime, we can look at and dosomething different.
Yeah.
So we have to be okay withmoving on to the next thing.
And one of my favorite storiesis from the Spanish artist Joe
Miro, who's one of my heroes,and he was 21 years old in
Spain, and he's in his journals,he's talking about working on a
certain painting thousand over athousand times.
(11:18):
So I think he says, I completedthis painting a thousand times
this summer.
And it was, and he's talkingabout how difficult it's been to
finish this painting.
Right.
Well, you fast forward in hisjournals.
I think this goes as 1921 to1926.
So I think he's now in hismid-20s, and he says, I've now
completed hundreds of paintingsthis year.
(11:41):
So he's gone from this point ofand he talks about the wonder of
creating a body of work.
Right.
And he talks about how much he'slearning about the work in this
process from going from work towork.
So he's past the hurdle of notbeing able to finish a piece.
(12:01):
And he's realizing that no piecewill ever be perfect.
Yeah.
But the only way to getperfection within the work is to
keep jumping from piece to pieceto piece to piece.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (12:12):
Well, and and do you think it's that that's a product
of learning that it's it'sreally the the most we'll be
able to do is maybe makesomething five percent better at
best, maybe ten.
Or even maybe regress from whereit was at one point.
(12:32):
And I it's like so I think aboutlooking back at at previous
work.
You got some incredible piecesin in the house from you know
different uh different phases ofyour of your career.
And I I guess uh let me put thisin the in the form of a question
for you.
When you look back at some ofthe pieces that still today
you're like, yeah, that you thatyou really enjoy looking at the
(12:54):
most that you feel arestrongest.
Can you remember and think backto when you were making them?
If in the moment you were like,oh, this is the one, or have
they sort of presentedthemselves to be stronger over
time?
SPEAKER_00 (13:10):
In other words, did you know in the moment or
there's one I would say there'sa few that I knew in the moment,
but many that have grown overtime and have their purpose in
place in that line of work.
And I think it's uh DavidBayless and Ted Orland that said
in Art and Fear, the enormousamount of work that you make in
your lifetime is for the fewthat's sore.
(13:32):
Right.
And so, but I think I've grownreally comfortable with that and
being okay with knowing that themajority is gonna be okay.
SPEAKER_02 (13:40):
And because it takes an enormous amount of work to
get the few that's sore, the themore quickly we can get to
making enormous amounts of work,the better.
SPEAKER_00 (13:50):
Yeah, and I think the things that you said
earlier, kind of talking aboutyour mantras and the things you
need to put in place foryourself.
The goal of an artist is to makegreat work.
But I think the other goal ofthe artist in that process is
learning who you are as anartist.
And that doesn't just mean yourwork.
Yeah, you, the person.
What do you need for you to makethe best work you can make?
(14:13):
That's not just time in thestudio.
That's learning who you are.
Yeah.
How do I operate best?
How can I put out the most workI can put out?
How can I sustain a great amountof focus and whatever time I
have to focus?
Yeah.
And then putting those things inplace to keep you there.
Because for any of us that haveour routine or have our
(14:35):
discipline set in the way thatwe do things, we know once we
leave that, things are a mess.
Yeah.
When we step out of that normalroutine, we step out of those
rules or mantras or things youhave in place, however loose or
however tight, once we'reremoved from that, it's a mess
to get back into it.
(14:55):
Sure.
And I think that's part of theproblem too for so many of us as
young artists in career youth isjust bouncing in every now and
then to do stuff kind ofhalf-ass or not really focused
or with too much frustration.
It's hard to really create workand be okay with what you've
(15:15):
made to move on to the nextthing.
So really finding out who youare is part of the process as
well and how you need tooperate.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:24):
I think I wanted to circle back to something you
said before around having othertrusted friends whose critique
and feedback, whose honestcritique and feedback that you
can, you know, that you're, thatyou're able and willing to
receive.
I think that goes back to alsoidentifying the a trusted
(15:47):
relationship where you know thatlike what you're going to be
hearing is coming from a placeof support and also context.
Somebody who's, you know, knowsenough about what you've been
doing to be able to, you know,give that, give that feedback.
And also, you know,understanding when a good time
is to ask for that.
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Yeah, because we're all scared when we ask.
For sure.
There's no way that no artist isnot, does not have one ounce of
fear when they go to thattrusted person and go, Totally,
hey, here's my new body of work.
Tell me what you think.
Yeah.
Because you're hoping you're onthe right track.
Totally.
Because if not, you're goingback to the studio and going,
(16:28):
Well, shit, do I start all overagain?
Yeah.
Or are they wrong?
Right.
There's even fear in thatmoment.
Yeah.
Are they wrong?
I mean, there was a time whenthis was a few years ago, I'm
sure you remember this, when Ihad a solo show and I had a new
body of work.
I had those pieces with thefolds, sculptural paintings with
(16:50):
other work.
Yep.
And I sent out what I call to mybrain trust, trusted artists,
trusted friends.
And it was a PDF that had allthe work in that body of work.
Yeah.
And I asked everybody to let meknow which pieces you feel are
the strongest and which piecesyou feel are the weakest.
Right.
So then I took that and I thinkI sent it to about 55 people.
(17:13):
Old professors, uh, mentors,artists from my program, other
artists' friends.
And what and then I took a PDFand I put all the pieces on it
and I hash marked all of themall the way through.
Yep.
And it helped me curate.
Yeah.
Number one, because I wascurating my own show.
(17:34):
It helped me curate the work,but also gave me a really good
sense of is the new stuffworking?
Because I had very new ideaswith old ideas.
And it was really interesting tome that all the new ideas were
the lowest of the selectionsfrom people.
And all the older ones were theones that everybody gravitated
(17:56):
towards.
Which, as we know, Nick Cavessays, new work is always most
difficult for the existingaudience.
Yeah.
Because they're used to whatthey know.
Yes.
And my my men, one of mymentors, the Japanese American
artist Mako Fujimura said, Ilike the folded pieces, they're
(18:17):
very new and I don't thinkthey're fully developed yet.
So your older work fullydeveloped and feels very strong
because you know what you'redoing.
I'm not saying don't show thenew ones, but if you do show
them, make sure the older workis the most prominent in the
space.
Right.
And the new ideas are in a placewhere people can see them, but
(18:38):
they're not the focus.
So it was really interesting totake all those things and then
go back to the studio and lookat it.
Yeah.
But it was also really sucked.
SPEAKER_02 (18:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:48):
Because I was so fucking excited about the new
pieces.
Right.
And there was one in there inparticular that was my absolute
favorite out of anything I did.
And it ranked the lowest of anypiece on there.
Yeah.
So you've got all thesecompeting feelings now that you
go back into the studio with nowwhat do you do?
SPEAKER_02 (19:09):
Right.
Well, and that so that's areally important point, is is
also knowing when to, you know,listen and identify, okay, this
is, you know, stamped in stoneversus, okay, this is this is a
perspective.
Yep.
You know, but it's not, it'sit's your work.
(19:30):
Yep.
You're still the expert on yourwork, you know.
To your point about that feelingof vulnerability, I mean, as
well as as you and I know eachother and as as much as I trust
you, I I definitely had thatfeeling, you know, last night
with the the photos and videosthat that I had you, you know,
take a look at of just like, allright, you know, and and that
that hope, like, oh, am I am Ionto something?
(19:51):
But just to, you know, be betransparent, like there
definitely is that moment.
There's a reason why it madesense for us to do that last
night versus right before welike I had a chance to go back,
you know, go back to my room andlick my wounds and you know,
tell myself it was gonna beokay.
You weren't that harsh and itwasn't that bad.
And it was it's also very, youknow, but that but that's the
point, right?
It is not to not to always justget the the the high fives and
(20:15):
the hey you're you you're doinggreat, keep going.
SPEAKER_00 (20:18):
Great work, right?
Which is that that's why I callInstagram the false narrative.
100%.
Right.
It's a it's a myth.
It's a false narrative that yourwork is on the right track
because you get you put up apiece and you get a thousand
likes, then you put up anotherpiece and you get five.
I mean, it's a false narrative.
It's a people who like art, butit is not the art world.
(20:42):
Yeah.
Unless the five galleries you'redreaming to get into all like
the piece now, you're okay.
I'm on there.
But for the most part, it's no,it's what people know and what
they see regularly.
So they so that's like thatfalse narrative.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:56):
Do you I've got a question for you?
It's funny you bring up whenwhen you when you had sent that
out because as I was looking atsome of those, I was remembering
when, and I I don't think I'veseen all at least all five of
those in person.
I was remembering when I waslooking at them on the PDF and
thinking about that.
My question for you is do youhow do you weight right?
(21:18):
Like something coming from Mako,obviously is you gotta weight
that heavier than someone fromme who you whatever.
You know what I'm saying?
A mentor versus so how do youweight the feedback?
Do you?
I guess it'll start.
SPEAKER_00 (21:33):
No, I no, I definitely do because I, you
know, I would go through and I'dgo, okay, well, Nathan, uh, V,
um Andre, who's in your programwith you in Germany, uh, you
know, Moxa had, you know,Allison had all these people
that I trust, right, as well.
And then I had some people thatare deep in the art world,
(21:55):
right?
Museum artists, mid-career, verysuccessful known artists, right,
with their feedback.
So there is a separation of wow,okay, Nathan loved these.
Well, makes sense.
I know why Nathan would likethese four more than others.
Sure.
And there were one, I rememberwhat everybody liked to today,
out of those 50, whatever.
(22:16):
There are pieces that you likedthat not everybody else liked.
There are pieces that V lovedthat nobody else liked.
Right.
But I know your tastes, I knowher.
So I was kind of, okay, thatmakes sense that they would
gravitate towards these.
So then, yeah, I do have to kindof separate and go, okay, now I
have this group of artists herewho are lecturing on art, who
(22:37):
are curating shows and seeingthings.
And I go, okay, well, I knowwhy.
I don't really know why.
I don't have a read on theirthings that like I do some of
these others.
So then I that's when I go backand I put that work in the
studio.
Yeah.
And I pull my chair out and Iget my coffee and I have their
notes printed off.
(22:59):
Right.
And I'm looking at all thehashtags that I have in people's
names and circles, and I havenotes everywhere.
And I'm going, and I literally,so then after I did that, and
I'd look at all the work and go,agree, agree, disagree.
I think whatever so-and-so saidwas only that way because of
(23:20):
what they've been working withover the last year or two as a
curator or whatever.
Right.
They're it's not something theylike.
So it's literally theanopinionated don't like that
stuff.
Yeah.
More than, well, it's reallyraw, these moments, this is new,
the ideas aren't really fullyfleshed out.
It was more like they just don'tlike it.
So I was able to separate, butthen there are ones that I just
(23:40):
don't, I don't know.
No idea.
Yeah.
But it forced me to sit with itagain, look at it.
Then I took my sheet and Icurated the show around
everything, including myself.
Yeah.
Because there were pieces thatpeople did not like that I still
included in.
I think I had 40 pieces and Ineeded 23 for the show or
(24:02):
something.
So there were pieces left outthat were more popular than
others because I felt sostrongly confident about those
pieces.
I wanted to make sure they wereshown.
Makes sense.
Yeah.
Before we jump to a nextsection, there's a word I want
to go back to that you saidearly on that to me is like a
bad word.
Yeah.
It's a it's a dirty word.
(24:23):
It's a naughty word.
SPEAKER_02 (24:24):
Not the naughty word that you were.
It's funny.
You so you beat you beat me tothe expletive in this episode.
I I do need to reference thefact that you threw me under the
bus at dinner last night.
And you said, you made it seemas though I was the body mouse
half of this equation.
And I said, You beat me to it.
SPEAKER_00 (24:42):
At dinner with family and friends last night, I
said that uh one of my nephew'sfriends is here with us hanging
out, and and we were talkingabout the show.
I said, Yeah, well, Nathan's gota really bad mouth.
And he said, Oh, so is itexplicit?
Does that hurt your uh any ads?
Your monetization.
Your monetization?
And I said, Oh no, we're notmonetized.
I said, and he's the one thatalways tusses.
(25:05):
So anyways, so here you said abad word before me today, and
that's the word overwork.
Overworking is an artist wordsnightmare.
We all know that.
We get to the point where wereally kind of like the work,
yeah, and it's feeling good.
And then for some reason, ourhead is like, well, you need to
(25:25):
add more.
Well, just do these things now.
Yeah.
And I think there is an artistpersona like fight.
Like, right, it's like the oldcartoon with the angel and the
devil on your shoulders, right?
And I put it in the last edittwo episodes ago, I made sure to
put that in the in the YouTubevideo.
But it's like there's almostlike there's something arguing,
(25:47):
oh no, no, it's not enough.
And I've had artists in myprogram where they've created
something really incredible,it's very minimal.
But for some reason in theirhead, they think, well, it can't
really be a painting if I don'tput a whole lot of stuff on
there.
Right.
Or a gallery won't really wantit if it just has four marks and
a bit of red.
And I say, Well, were youconfident in that piece at that
(26:09):
moment?
Absolutely.
Well, then why in the worldwould you think that a gallery
or somebody wouldn't accept itif you're fully confident in it?
And then what happens?
You start to add and you losewhat you had, so you keep adding
more to try to get back.
Yeah.
Keep adding, keep doing more andmore.
And it's so I think that's why,and we talk about this all the
time sitting and looking andlistening.
(26:32):
We probably say this in everyother episode, because it's that
important.
Yeah, artists, it's thatimportant to put a chair in the
middle of wherever you are, inyour house, in your studio,
outside, and line the work upyou're working on, finished,
unfinished, and spend timelooking at it and studying it
(26:53):
because there are gonna bemoments where the work is there,
yeah, and then you push it pastand it's no longer there
anymore.
So just I hate that word.
I just because I when I overworksomething, I'm sick.
Yeah, I'm literally sick inside.
I've got some pieces in herethat I was working on, and I
felt really good about it.
And I thought, what about thisnew idea?
(27:16):
Now, I don't think an overworkedpainting is a waste.
No.
But what I'm saying is spendtime listening so that you cut
that down and have more finishedwork over here, and you're
moving on to the new idea andthe next piece.
SPEAKER_02 (27:31):
And that really to bring everything full circle,
that really does come back tobeing becoming an expert on your
own work.
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Because that I think is whatwill allow us to be less
susceptible to believing the liethat maybe just a little bit
more will make it better.
Yep.
unknown (27:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:51):
Yeah, I had a I had a show years ago, and I was
doing a lecture with a uh museumcurator, and she was walking the
show with me and asking a numberof questions and petty freaking
questions, like big time curatorquestions, and some I could
answer and some I couldn't.
And that that is what pushed meeven more to be an expert of my
(28:17):
own work.
There were questions I shouldhave been able to answer.
There were some I was caught offguard and not ready to answer
because I was like, how does sheknow that?
You know, about my work.
And so I had that nervousness,yeah, and I couldn't, I was
fumbling and I figured it'sbetter just to not talk and say
(28:39):
I don't have an answer, which Ithink is fine because you don't
want to just make something up,which people do a lot in the art
world because it's easy to makestuff up.
But I want to be so educatedabout my work that when I'm
nervous and I get a question,I'm like, damn, really, I can
answer it without being nervousand not fumbling.
(28:59):
And so I spend all that timereally looking at my work.
And that's why go going andlooking at others' work is so
important too, because it givesyou an understanding about your
own.
Looking at work you like,looking at work you don't like,
and really looking at it, askingquestions, writing about it, you
know, and then going back toyour student, looking at your
work.
Now you're even more informed.
Yep.
Because there's gonna be a dayin time, I hope, for all of you,
(29:23):
where you have that person thatyou're you look up on a pedestal
that starts asking you questionsabout your work.
You want to be so confident inwhat you know.
Not just person, but people.
You sent you sent that PDF to55.
I did, I did.
So, but that's why it's it'simportant to take time and
really look at your work.
(29:44):
So you don't overwork it, but sothat you're really educated
about your work.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (29:49):
And you can answer those hard questions.
And then also understanding thatat the end of the day, we are
the preeminent expert on ourown.
We are the expert.
You are the expert on your work.
So as much as you believe in andtrust the input, the feedback,
the critiques that you'regetting, when it's all said and
done, you get to decide what todo with what you've received.
SPEAKER_00 (30:10):
Well, and you need to answer in confidence.
Cause sometimes we get thequestion, Well, what is this?
Why is this?
And you go, I just did it.
There's no meaning behind that.
That's just what I did.
Yeah.
But when you can answer that inconfidence, it's a lot different
than, well, I don't know, I justkind of did it.
Right?
When you start to echo anon-confidence in your work,
(30:34):
that makes the curator becomeless confident about looking at
and talking about your work.
Yeah.
And that's not a word to say.
That's not a like lofty, snobbything for a curator to hear you
non-confidently talk about yourwork and then be turned off.
(30:55):
Yeah.
That's not this like upperechelon, snobby, like, oh, this
artist doesn't know what they'reno, it's your confidence is
making them not confident.
Right.
Right.
So even if you're saying, nope,I just, that's just what I did.
I grabbed pink, I like pink, Igrabbed it, I put it on the
brush, and I slap it on and itworked.
(31:15):
Yeah.
Boom, next painting.
Yeah.
Right.
And then other times it's well,pink rep actually for me
represents X.
And my gestures are because ofmy heroes and working those two
things together.
And so there's there'sdifferences in those things, but
we want to be able to speak withconfidence.
Yeah.
Because you are the expert.
You need to sound like it.
(31:35):
Yeah.
So even if you're not confident,do it with confidence, is what
I'm hearing.
Yeah, even if you're notconfident, I mean I was nervous.
Be unconfident confidently.
Yeah.
I mean, and I was I was scaredin that moment.
I have somebody here that I'mlike, wow, their resume.
I want you to curate my showssomeday type moment, right?
(31:56):
So I'm a little non-confident inmyself in my first solo show
with this person literallywalking every painting with me
in the room.
I didn't know that washappening.
Right.
We were doing a lecture.
She wanted to stop by and seethe work.
Hey, let's walk the room.
What?
Right?
And then I'm getting everyquestion in the world.
(32:16):
Yeah.
She knew my heroes by looking atmy work.
Sure.
She called them out.
You love Twambly, you loveTapez, you love, right?
It was there.
And I could confidently say,yes, I do, major influence in
these four pieces.
Right.
Yeah.
And then, you know, then she gotinto archival.
Yeah.
(32:36):
And then you're really gulping.
Gulp, gulp, gulp.
Yeah.
So anyway, that's a story foranother day.
Okay, Nathan, life.
We're all human beings.
We all have these goals with ourart, with our work, and
sometimes life gets in the way.
(32:56):
How we deal with life, ouremotions, difficult situations,
hard things that happen to us onthe outside, we still have to be
in the studio.
How we deal with those thingsand those emotions can get in
the way of our work or can feedinto what we're creating.
(33:21):
And I know that you lost afriend recently that has been
really difficult for you.
And I know you called me thatday and we talked about his
emotion, very emotional moment.
And how have you learned?
(33:42):
And I know we've talked aboutthis a little bit in our trauma
episode on Louise Bourgeois.
So Nathan and I do it's almost atwo-hour episode on Louise
Bourgeois from I think lastyear, where we really kind of
talk about healing and traumafrom her perspective and then
our lives.
But this is recent.
Like you're you're in a momentwhere you're experimenting and
you're creating new ideas andnew things based on where you're
(34:03):
going with your work.
And then it's like dead stopemotionally.
Because work-wise, you've beenon a high.
You had solo show in Germanylast year, first major solo
show.
You've got work changing,developing, and then all of a
sudden, like, how do you dealwith that?
SPEAKER_02 (34:22):
Yeah, I mean, it's something you said as you were
uh setting that up.
We still have to be in thestudio.
I think it's important toreframe that with we still get
to be in the studio.
We still get to be still get tobe in the studio.
Because it's we have thetremendous gift of being uh
(34:47):
engaged in something where weget to take whatever's happening
and do something with it.
SPEAKER_00 (34:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:56):
You know, so comparing my recent experience
with what it would have beenlike in a more you know
traditional JOB, it would havebeen much more difficult to
focus on whatever, you know,bullshit task or meeting or what
whatever the thing you knowwould have been, as opposed to
(35:19):
no, it's an opportunity to beable to take what we're
experiencing on on every part ofthe spectrum of human experience
and and actually take it intothe work, you know.
So I think that the I guess I'llI'll share a bit of the
backstory.
So this is a friend um fromrecovery.
You know, I'm I'm I'm I'm activein the recovery community.
(35:42):
I've been sober for a long time.
I work with a lot of otherpeople recovering from
addiction.
And this was somebody who I whoI knew well, who I was working
with, and um and he had almostthree years of sobriety and he
relapsed and he overdosed, andhis his girlfriend found him in
his in his bathtub.
And um so I was shocked.
(36:06):
I I did not see it coming.
There's certainly people that uhyou know I I know well in that
space where I would bedevastated to get that call, but
wouldn't be shocked.
This was one where I wasabsolutely blown away.
I did not see it coming at all.
And so just working throughthose feelings and that
experience of grief and loss,and then also figuring out what
(36:31):
do I do with this?
I think is probably where whereI would how I would answer that
question.
Like I think that there isutility to everything that we're
experiencing.
And I go back to this is wherehaving a deep well of
information, of, of, of books,of of peers, of friends, of of
(36:57):
information, and and I'm gonnatake that a step further and
call it wisdom, yeah, you know,to really go back to to anchor
us into you know what's true andwhat what is to be done with
what's in front of us.
You know, we we talk about this,and it's funny, I I I I um I
wanted to talk about this bookanyway.
(37:18):
I didn't bring it with me.
Of course you've got it.
And I literally, the the excerptthat I wanted to read from it
today, I turned right to thatpage.
Like it literally right opened.
And you've got a number of forthose of us, for those of you
watching, look at ties.
I mean, this is this issomething.
I mean, look at this colorcoding.
I mean, this is this is somebodywho's intentionally going
through a book and do thesecolors mean anything?
SPEAKER_00 (37:39):
Yeah, it's just hoping that Nick Cave is
watching and he's thinking thatI'd like studying every word
that he says.
SPEAKER_02 (37:44):
And which clarify we're talking about Nick Cave
the musician, not not the notthe sculptor.
Um but uh so this is from Faith,Hope, and Carnage, um, which is
a tremendous book that we'vereferenced more than once um
already.
So he writes All my songs arewritten from a place of
spiritual yearning because thatis the place that I permanently
(38:05):
inhabit.
To me personally, this placefeels charged, creative, and
full of potential.
And so this is somebody who'slost two sons, tragically,
young.
I think both, one was I think inhis teens and one was maybe in
his early 20s, I want to say.
Yeah.
And so this is somebody who'sdealt with with grief at about
(38:28):
the deepest level.
I mean, I don't think there'sanything worse than losing a
child.
And having watched my my parentsgo through that, I can, you
know, just from an observation,you know, close-up perspective,
I can I can attest to that.
He goes on to write (38:45):
perhaps grief can be seen as an exalted
state where the person who isgrieving is the closest they
will ever be to the fundamentalessence of things.
Because in grief, you becomedeeply acquainted with the idea
of human mortality.
You go to a very dark place andexperience the extremities of
your own pain.
You are taken to the limits ofsuffering.
(39:07):
As far as I can see, there's athere is a transformative aspect
to this place of suffering.
We are essentially altered orremade by it.
Now, this process is terrifying,but in time you return to the
world with some kind ofknowledge that has something to
do with our vulnerability asparticipants in this human
drama.
Everything seems so fragile andprecious and heightened, and the
(39:29):
world and the people in it seemso endangered and yet so
beautiful.
And so I spent time with thisbook.
I reflected on it, journaled onit, like trying to take what I'm
feeling, take what I'mexperiencing, and take it into
the work, you know.
And so to me, it comes back tothis idea of, you know, to his
(39:53):
point about that heightenedsense of mortality.
I think a lot about what if thiswas the last thing I ever made.
SPEAKER_03 (39:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:00):
You know, and how I really want to treat every day
in the studio, everything I'mworking on as though I'm gonna
have 80 more years to make work,yeah, and as though this could
be my last day in the studio.
To keep one foot planted in inboth of those spaces, I think is
very healthy, you know, for me.
(40:20):
And so in a phase, in a in aperiod where I am doing things
that are completely new, I tryto channel that into a place of
sort of, I guess, fearlessnessof, hey, what if what if today's
my day?
What if tomorrow's you know myday?
What would I want to have atleast made or tried to put out
(40:40):
into the world or leave behindfor whoever might find it, you
know?
Um, I think that's that's that'sreally, really important.
So just that that mindset oflike, we don't have to go back
in the studio, we don't have tokeep working, we get to keep
working.
So whatever we're experiencing,taking that into the work and
trying to channel it in a usefulway.
(41:02):
We we get to be in a in a place,we get to do something where we
actually can can use whatever'saround us, whatever we're
experiencing, and not just bedependent on, oh, I'm feeling
good.
It's 72 degrees outside, youknow, everyone in my world has
been nice to me so far today.
(41:22):
Traffic was smooth, I sleptgreat last night, everything.
No, we can't our work can't beconditional.
Our work can't be can't be basedon things, you know, being right
and being perfect.
And furthermore, I think usingwhat's in front of us to
whatever good purpose we can isreally, really important.
SPEAKER_00 (41:41):
Well, I think what you said there about the work
can't be conditional.
The the time, the process cannotbe conditional.
Like that's if you want yourwork to be strong and to
possibly stand for a long time,you can't put conditions around
(42:02):
when and how you work.
Yeah, you have to find a way tobe disciplined with getting to
work in the face of anything.
Because shit happens.
Yeah.
This is like Nick Cabe justsaid, we're all playing a part
in this drama called humanity.
(42:22):
Right.
Every one of us at differentlevels, with different
possibilities, with differentthings happening to us or not
happening to us.
So we have to be unconditionalin our work.
Yeah.
In the face of anything.
And I think the mindset of youswitching, me saying we have to
(42:43):
get in the studio, that we getto be in the studio, that we get
to make art.
I think that's a fabulousmindset to always remember in
the face of any adversity or anyrejection or anything that may
be coming.
Gosh, well, I'm glad I get to gomake work today.
Because I I know myself, I don'tknow how I could handle anything
(43:06):
very difficult if I wasn't anartist.
Right.
I don't I don't know how otherpeople do it because I've always
had the ability to go paint orsculpt when something terrible
happens and use and channel.
SPEAKER_02 (43:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (43:24):
Right.
Now I've definitely channeledand handled those things in the
very wrong, wrong ways in thepast, but I've still been able
to go in and take some of thatout and put it into work.
Right.
So I that it's just I it's amagical, magical, supernatural
thing.
Yeah, absolutely.
So learn how to make work in theface of all those things.
SPEAKER_02 (43:47):
I would even say to take that a step further, it's
it comes down to acknowledgingwe cannot, of course, control
what happens to us, whathappens, you know, in our world
or to the people that we careabout, but we do get to decide
what that means.
Yeah.
We get to assign meaning to thethings that happen to us.
(44:08):
And so in this case, the meaningthat I chose to assign was I'm
going to be bold, I'm going tobe more fearless, I'm not going
to, you know, hold back.
Yeah.
And what the work may have beenabout initially.
I'm I'm not trying to set asidemy thoughts and feelings and
emotions around that.
(44:30):
I'm channeling it into what I'mdoing.
Because any anything that wouldcome, especially in in in that
period, anything that would comefrom the work from a place of
trying to let mecompartmentalize and set that
aside, would have been anauthentic to where where I was
actually at in that moment.
And I think the highest callingfor all of us is to make the
(44:51):
most authentic work that we canbased on where we are and what's
in front of us at that time.
SPEAKER_00 (44:57):
Yeah.
I'm 50 years old.
I have no, I have no idea howmany years I have left on this
earth.
It's probably less than I'velived so far.
Sure.
So when I'm in the studio andI'm making something that I am
going, don't know if I likethis.
I have no idea where it's going.
Well, then I have I'm stillfollow the course.
Yeah.
Because I don't, I want to, it'staking me somewhere.
(45:19):
It's telling the work's tellingme to go this way.
So I've got to go that way.
Yeah.
Like you said, I don't know.
What if in a few months mytime's up and I didn't follow
the course and I'm just kind ofdiddling around.
Like, that's not how I, that's,but that's my chosen.
SPEAKER_02 (45:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:34):
I don't want to, I don't want to live that way as
an artist.
I want to always be drivingforward.
So even if the work's taking meto uncharted territory that
feels really uncomfortable andweird and not right, I have to
trust my own intuition that Iknow it's telling me to follow
the, follow its lead.
(45:55):
Right.
Because it's taking mesomewhere.
And I'd much rather go outhaving done that and what I may
leave behind doing that ratherthan just following a script.
SPEAKER_02 (46:09):
And having back to that idea of having a deep well
to pull from, we don't know whenwe're going to need these
things, but having them ready inadvance, you know, exposing in
the in this context, exposingourselves to real wisdom, great
thinkers that have come beforeus, and having those, those in
the in the arsenal to beapplied, you know, when when
(46:29):
things get get a little gnarlyand get a little rough.
In your guest room, you've gotyour winter coats hanging in
that closet, closet.
You don't need them right now,but you will.
Yeah.
And you already have them.
So that when the when the coldcomes, when the snow starts
flying, like you're you'reprepared.
(46:50):
You already have what you needto deal with the conditions that
are put in front of you that youcan't control, but you've got
them prepared.
You're you're ready.
You know?
And so that just goes to, again,something that a drum that we
continually beat on almost everyepisode, but continue to expose
ourselves to more ideas, moregreat thinkers, more things that
(47:11):
we may.
When I first read this, but Iwas like, that's a great idea.
I could relate to things in thepast, right?
But then something happens in mypresent, and it's like, oh yeah,
I've got that to pull from.
Yeah.
Let me let me revisit this.
And it takes on, of course, afull new life, a full new
meaning because it's there.
Yep.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (47:32):
A lot of good stuff today, Nathan.
I think, and I've got a lot ofthings I'm thinking about right
now, just in that conversation,and just being able to just
continue to shape my mindset.
SPEAKER_02 (47:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:44):
Because I don't know what's coming in the future, so
that I'm really focused today.
You know, I think that's part ofeverything that you and I talk
about a lot just on our own,too, is like be so focused on
today, what you're doing in thestudio.
Like we're looking towards whereour work's going.
We're following the lead of ourwork, where it's taking us, but
(48:04):
we don't know what tomorrowholds.
And so focusing on today.
And I know for you and I boththat's means our artwork, but
also means our family life.
It also means those things likegiving attention to and love and
nurturing our work, but also ourrelationships and our family
life and those things too.
And I think I just think that'sgreat for all of you just having
(48:25):
your head, like, what are youdoing today with your work?
Yeah.
What is your how much are youlearning?
How much you're willing tolisten and spend time really
cultivating your relationshipwith you as an artist and with
your work.
Figure those things out.
Sit down.
I I do a I do a practice withall the artists in my mentorship
(48:45):
program, and I have them writetheir own personal statement to
themselves early on in theprogram.
It's not an artist statement foryour website, it's a personal
statement for you.
Why are you making your art?
What is the purpose of yourselfmaking your art?
And what is your big dream foryourself?
Yeah.
It's that personal mantra.
What am I doing here?
What are you doing?
What am I about?
(49:06):
Yeah.
But right, so I that's somethingI just encourage you all to do
as we close the like do that.
Have you have you really hadthat conversation with yourself?
Have that conversation withyourself and then hold yourself
to it.
Yeah.
Shoot for the stars.
SPEAKER_02 (49:21):
But don't wait to keep making work.
Yeah.
These are these are exercisesthat evolve and change over
time.
And so understand that this isnot something that you have to
have dialed in and perfectbefore.
These are these are concurrentactivities.
Absolutely.
You know, so doing it and andand taking these ideas into the
(49:44):
work and then listening.
I've learned way more from thework than I have from what I sat
down to.
Both are important.
Right.
You know, but feeling like andI've I've fallen that trap at
times.
Okay, I've got to have thiswhole body of work.
I've got to have everythingdialed before I it's like, no,
no, no.
No.
It's we just have to have astarting point.
(50:04):
Yep.
And then doing both of thosethings side by side will
definitely support and enhanceone another as you go.
SPEAKER_00 (50:12):
Yeah, I think I think Miro said we need to
explore all of the dancingsparks of our souls.
And that was in that moment whenhe started making all the work.
Right.
He it he's exploring all of thedancing sparks of his soul, not
just the one, all of them.
So go do that.
Feels like a good place to stop.
Yeah.
(50:33):
Thanks for listening, everybody.
We hope you enjoy the episode.
If you have any questions, shootus questions.
We'd love to uh we'd love toanswer.
We need to do a QA episode atsome point coming up.
So if you have any questionsthat you're curious about, about
us as artists or about the artworld or anything, we'd love to
find answers for you.
(50:53):
If we don't know them, if weonly know a little bit, but we
will ask and we will try to getanswers from others.
Make up answer interesting, orwe will non-confinately,
confidently answer.
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