Part 2. Breaking down: How to Be An Artist by Jerry Saltz.

What transforms raw materials into meaningful art? How do artists develop their unique voice while standing on the shoulders of those who came before them? In this thought-provoking second part exploration of Jerry Saltz's "How to Be an Artist," we unpack the practical realities of the creative journey and the mindsets that sustain artistic growth.

The conversation begins with the critical practice of capturing ideas—through sketchbooks, journals, voice memos—creating an ever-expanding archive of inspiration that artists can mine for future work. We share personal systems for documenting fleeting thoughts and how this practice often reveals what's truly happening in our minds. These captured moments become the seeds from which our most authentic work grows.

We tackle the intimidating challenge of finding one's artistic voice, challenging the myth that great artists spring forth with fully-formed originality. All masters begin as students—imitating, copying, and gradually infusing their personal perspective into established forms. The studio becomes the sacred space for this transformation—a sanctuary where imitation evolves into innovation without judgment or shame. Whether your workspace resembles the pristine order of Agnes Martin or the chaotic energy of Francis Bacon, it should serve as your laboratory for experimentation.

Perhaps most profound is the discussion of embedding thought and emotion into physical materials—creating work that communicates even when you're not present to explain it. This alchemical process requires deep listening to both your materials and your inner voice. Great art puts out more energy than went into its making, resonating with viewers on levels beyond literal understanding.

We close with an essential reminder: there are no wasted days in the studio. Even apparent failures move your practice forward. The struggle itself is valuable—often taking you further than easy successes ever could. Learn to finish work and move forward rather than getting trapped in perfectionism. Your next piece will benefit from everything you've discovered in creating this one.

Whether you're a seasoned artist or just beginning your creative journey, this episode offers practical wisdom and permission to embrace both the struggle and joy of making meaningful work that's distinctly yours.

Send us a message - we would love to hear from you!

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@justmakeartpodcast @tynathanclark @nathanterborg

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
All right, ty, we're back with part two of how to Be
an Artist by Jerry Saltz.
If you haven't listened to partone yet, go check it out or
don't.
It's your life, you know.
Do what you want.
You can listen to these inwhatever order you want.
It's really up to you.
But we're going to jump in withstep two.
The book is divided into sixsteps.

(00:29):
Part one was all about step one.
Step two is titled how toActually Begin an instruction
manual for the studio, and Ithink, ty, we're going to jump
into section.
I've got something on point 14.
Okay, and the title of thatsection is make your mark.

(00:53):
It's a great section.
The one part that I reallywanted to drill into with you is
Jerry writes carry a sketchbookwith you at all times.
Take pictures on your phone, ifthat helps you remember things.
When your thoughts start racing, don't be passive.
Get them down on paper, andthis goes back to the Louise

(01:15):
quote tell your own story.
I think for me and I've talkedabout this a lot but the
practice of just capturing ideas, capturing thoughts you know, I
mentioned David Lynch in theprevious episode and there's our
David Lynch episode as well,but we but he talks so much
about you gotta, you gottacapture these.
We're trying to catch the bigfish.
We're trying to catch the bigideas and much like our art

(01:38):
itself, it takes a lot of.
Here I'll show my.
I got into the practice of, I'vegot these laboratory notebooks
and I'm just going to stackthese up over time and someday
the book that will not bewritten about me will be taken
from these journal notes.
Uh, I've got a separate journal.
That's more.
You know, whatever, justpersonal thoughts and whatever

(01:59):
they.
The two tend to bleed into oneanother.
But this is my studio journal,you know, and I think that
there's just, there's so muchvalue in capturing things.
I don't know about you, but forme I don't.
I oftentimes don't really I'mnot completely connected to what
I'm thinking or feeling until Isee what I've just written down
.
There's some there's somethingmagical about, and it's the
tactile experience of pen orpencil.

(02:20):
You know on paper that you'relike, oh, that's what's there.
It pen or pencil.
You know on paper that you'relike, oh, that's what's there.
It's a lot like the creativepractice overall.
Writing, of course is is acreative act, but it's that it
just it flows out and when, whenI'm not censoring myself when
I'm not trying to like writesomething that's good or cool or
whatever, when it's justflowing.
I have a lot of those momentswhere it's like, oh huh, that's

(02:44):
what's going on here.
It also applies to the work.
You know this is the journalthat I sit with when I'm
listening to.
You know the work and trying toall out no bad ideas and then
sit with it some more, decide.

(03:06):
You know which ones to takeaction on and which ones to set
aside for the moment.
But just that whole idea ofjust making sure that we're
capturing those things,remembering those things.
Phones are great.
You know we've got a I useactually I don't know if I've
talked about this much I use theuh, the voice, voice memo app
on my phone and that's somethingthat's become kind of a uh,

(03:27):
almost every night drive home.
It's a way for me to decompressand be able to kind of reset
for you know whatever's next inthat night, to be present with
the people that I may bespending time with my family or
whomever, and also just likeputting the day of the studio to
, to, to rest a little bit, butit's capturing.
I mean, I've got probably hoursat this point.

(03:48):
Some of them I revisit, some ofthem I don't, but it's just
capturing those things right.
It's getting into the practiceof capturing those thoughts,
those ideas, the imagination, onpaper or on audio to be able to
, if nothing else, just purge it.
Or on audio to be able to, ifnothing else, just purge it, but
also to potentially mine thosethings back after some time has

(04:09):
passed, for you know where thegold might be.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah, I have a journal with me 90% of the time.
So whether it's a little pocketone that just fits in my back
pocket, or it's my biggerjournal that you know is in my
backpack or my bag when I'mgoing places to read or whatever
.
But I also use my phone to doaudio recordings.
But I record more audible soundthan I do me speaking, so I
will.
If I'm at a coffee shop writingand journaling, I'll just hit

(04:33):
record just to record theaudible sound that's going on
around me, and so I love that.
You know, in the, in the audionotes on an iPhone, it gives you
the date and the time and theplace where you are right, where
you, where you're listening, soit kind of labels it all that
way.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
What do you do with that?

Speaker 2 (04:51):
then what do you do with that?
Later I will go, I will writeto it at times.
So I'll put it on and I'llwrite poetry to it and it's kind
of a place in time and I canremember the thoughts I was
having in that moment.
So it could easily be meworking on a piece and I was
writing poetry about, let's say,a memory of my father and I
when I was younger and I waswriting a poem about that.

(05:13):
I can play that audio and italmost takes me right back to
that memory that I was writingabout in that moment, in that
time.
So it's just another littlemental light bulb.
I love that Electric triggerthat can trigger things and
moments for me.
But I think that's what we're,that's what we're talking about,
right, it's like gather, gather, gather all these things,

(05:34):
collect these things and thenuse them to make your mark.
And I love on page 28, he saysas you work, pay attention to
everything you're experiencing.
Don't think good or bad, thinkuseful, pleasurable, strange or
lucky.
So I gather everything and I,honestly, when I go to galleries
and museums, I have my notebookand I'm not sketching, I'm

(05:55):
writing about what I'm feeling.
I'm writing about what if thework stops me, I sit and I write
about it because I know when Iget back to the studio, all
those things that I wrote aregoing to be in my head, stored
in my subconscious, and thosefeelings, those emotions have
the potential of coming out ofmy work.
So, skipping ahead a few to 16on page 34.

(06:15):
We've talked about this a lot inour steal and copy episode as
well.
Like, imitation is a key tolearning, and so I just want to
reinforce that.
I'm not going to go into itdeeply, but we're all going to
start as copycats, like he saysthat right here, trying on other
people's forms and styles forsize.
It's fine, but don't stop there.

(06:35):
You want your work to progresspast that at some point.
Listen, we are all starting tocreate from things that we liked
.
You can be the artist in the MFAprogram that says I'm not
looking at any art and I'm onlygoing to make my own original
work.
No, you're not, sorry.
Your subconscious is toopowerful and too strong for that
to happen.
Anything you have seen in youryears previous is going to come

(07:00):
through in your work.
So even if you stop looking atany art or anything, you're
still going to have all that andimitation is going to come out.
It's okay.
The best artists imitate, thebest artists steal and then
become themselves over time.
You have to practice, you haveto try.
You have to try things that youlike, that speak to you, that
influence you.

(07:20):
Over time, though, the morework you put in, it will become
your gestures, your marks, yourshading, your figures, your
ideas.
Your identity will start tocome out on that.
So imitate and then separate.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
That last sentence, think of yourself as landing in
a huge coliseum filled withideas, avenues, ways means
electromagnetic pulses,materials and internal game
theories.
Make these things yours.
This is your house now, yep.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
It's funny.
What do you do in your house,Nathan?

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Well, that's what just actually jumped out.
None of your business is what Ido in my house, first of all.
No, but I'm thinking aboutmostly.
Sleep is the answer.
This is your house now.
But you think about?
You move into a house.
It's decorated I mean assumingthat whatever it's empty, but
it's decorated a certain way.

(08:13):
The walls are colored a certainway, there's things about it
that it's livable.
Right, you can just live in thehouse that you move into and
just say this is mine now.
But to really make a home yoursfor the most part, you're going
to at least make some changes toit.
You're going to change somefixtures.
You may be going to, you know,renovate an entire section, blah
, blah, blah.
You're probably at least goingto paint the walls.

(08:34):
You know you're certainly goingto move your stuff in, which
changes a space fundamentallyright off the bat, right.
But you're making it yours andover time it becomes more and
more yours.
And I don't know about you.
But you move into a new placeand for a while it feels like
you're living in, like I guessthis is mine now, but it doesn't
really feel like home untilyou've spent time there and

(08:56):
until you've made it yours andthat's really, I think, what
Jerry's talking about in termsof our practice is you know,
we're absorbing, we'recollecting, we're you know,
we're picking up all of thesedifferent things from all of
these different places.
But this is your house, now,right?
So it's our responsibility tomake it ours, to make ourselves
at home and to find a uniqueplace that is ours and ours

(09:18):
alone, yep, and that place yourstudio, your place to work, that
place where you're makingthings.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
Section 17 is your sanctum.

Speaker 1 (09:29):
Your segue guy.
Today I'm going to call yousegue guy Segway.

Speaker 2 (09:32):
Yeah, two wheels and a really long handlebar, and I'm
just moving us on.
I'm leaning forward.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
Go ahead, Editor Ty.
Go ahead and drop in thechimpanzees right on a segway
clip perfect oh, I forgot aboutthat one.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
That was a good one.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
It's a good classic video you could sing that song,
now that I planted that secretit's in my head and it won't
leave all right off, we go, off,we go our 17, usually right,
it's our laboratory

Speaker 2 (10:05):
yeah, it's our place for inventing things.
It's the mechanics garage, theseance chamber, fortress of
solitude, whatever you want tocall it, I say I always call it
my playground and my place ofworship.
Yeah, because it's a veryspiritual place for me, but it's
a place where I am so free fromany restrictions or anything

(10:26):
that it's like I'm in secondgrade again and the bell went
off and I'm running out to thatplace that I've been staring at
through the window for hourstrying to get back to.
And you know that once you getout there you're free.
I can do whatever.
I can run around, I can dowhatever I want, hang out with
whoever I want to.
There's nothing.
So that's kind of how I view mystudio.
You know it's that place to gointo and I love that.

(10:46):
He says in the studio this isgreat, get in, get into your
body.
I love that.
Like, really get into yourselfin this moment, breathe, pace,
do whatever it takes to prepareyourself, have a little ritual,
have a little something you do.
You know our buddy Kyle Steeddoes breath work, right and kind
of.
When he goes into the studio hesets up, does some breath work,

(11:08):
he meditates in the middle fora while he gets into himself
before he starts to work.
Whatever that is and I love thevery last sentence here the
studio should be a place of noshame.
No shame, nothing.
Where you're open to surpriseand humiliation, when you're
never afraid of silence, whereyou sit, sometimes for hours,

(11:29):
just looking at what you made,not knowing, letting your mind
drift.
Tomorrow you come back and worksome more and I tell artists
that I work with all the time.
It is a place of no shame.
Yeah, you can be as humiliatedas you want to.
You can make crappy, shittystuff all day long and it
doesn't matter.
There's no shame in it becausenobody knows.
Unless you're doing a live feedevery day for 24 hours and

(11:52):
you're your own reality show.
Nobody's going to see whatyou're doing, not one person.
So why would you not just gofor the freaking fences and try
anything possible and fail andfail, and fail and fail until
you nail it, until you find it?

Speaker 1 (12:08):
It's funny.
He talks about writing forsorry sitting for hours and
sometimes if I post a whatever aprocess video, I'll get a
comment or more of oh I justwish I could just watch you work
for watch you.
Watch you work for a day, yeah,and my, my response is often
some version of I assure you,it's far less interesting in

(12:28):
real time it's far lessinteresting than the 10 seconds
you just saw, like this is the.
This is the the mostinteresting whatever, seven
seconds.
If you want to watch me walkingaround staring for hours and
doing this, yeah, Is this, isthis, yeah, a lot of, a lot of,
yeah, a lot, a lot, a lot ofthis.
Mostly it's me sitting in my,my studio chair, with my

(12:49):
creative director, right, buddy,yeah, with leo, and just trying
to figure shit out and andfigure out you know what might
be next, but without feelingthis is this is a challenge for
me, without resisting the urgeto jump up and just do.
Acting for me is not, takingaction for me is not the

(13:09):
challenge.
For me, it's sometimes waitingjust another beat, another
moment, another, whatever 10, 15minutes an hour before acting.
It is the sitting for acting,it is the sitting, it is just
the being in the space andsitting with the work that is
really important to determinewhat that next right action

(13:30):
might be.
The first sentence of thissection.
I want to read this becauseit's just so perfect the studio
is your sanctum, an inventor'slaboratory, teenager's bedroom,
mechanic's garage, seancechamber, fortress of solitude,
prison cell, ecstasy machine,wormhole and launch pad.
I mean I I really liked Jerry'swriting style in general

(13:52):
because it's it's all of thosethings and more right, but it's,
it's, it's whatever you want orneed it to be in in that moment
and it's it's ours and oursalone.
You know I told I was tellingmy wife.
On Monday I had one plannedstudio visit with with my friend
that I mentioned before and twoimpromptu ones, and her

(14:15):
response, just knowing me, she'slike oh, how'd those go?

Speaker 2 (14:19):
I think that was my response too Right.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
That's right.
That's right Because it's likeyou know you're in it and you
know when I'm, when I'm workingoutside, some people uh, new
neighbors moving in, walk by andand uh, and, and her son was.
Really can I bring my son in?
He's really interested in art,and so it was.
It was lovely, it wasdelightful, but I don't.

(14:41):
I enjoyed those, let me justsay that.
But because that is my, my like,I don't unlock my front door
unless I know, unless I know youknow, someone's coming.
I wear, you know, when I'moutside, headphones, sometimes
just to just to help withwhatever noise I might be making
, but also to send a very clearmessage like, yep, I'll take
these off, but I'm keeping myhands on them because they're
going back on.
I'm not looking to.

(15:02):
You know, hang out and havesocial time.
But that's probably just the myintroverted nature, I suppose.
But this is one I wanted tothrow at you.
I'm surprised that you didn'ttalk about this dress in your
own abracadabra garments.
Yep, my man ties got some someabracadabra garments and so I
you talk about this.
I mean, I just dressed like a,like a, like a working person.

(15:24):
I mean that was one of thethings in our Leonardo Drew
episode that I loved aboutseeing him work in the studio
like that.
Yeah, leonardo's dressed forreal work back, brace, gloves,
boots but you've got a littlebit more pizzazz in your
abracadabra studio style.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Let me put that in form of question.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
Sorry, what about thatra studio style?
Well, what did you?
Let me put that in form ofquestion, sorry, what about that
?
Talk about the ritual of thatfor you, right, you put your
studio coat on, you got yourshoes, you got your like.
Talk about that.

Speaker 2 (15:54):
Yeah, that became early on for me when I went full
time.
Um, I had, you know, certainoutfits I would wear to paint
and not for anything more thanjust getting paint on old
clothes.
But then it just kind of becamesomething of helping me embrace
the fact that I'm wanting to dothis.

(16:14):
I am an artist, I'm not anentrepreneur.
I'm not a PR director, I'm notan art director.
My past life things no, I'm anartist, I am going for this and
it was kind of my way of, youknow, transforming myself from
Clark Kent into Superman, right,or transforming myself into

(16:34):
Wonder Woman.
You know what I mean.
It was like it was that it wasspinning, it was walking into
the studio and putting the faceof absolute seriousness on of.
I'm here to work, I'm here to dothis, and so I kind of you know
my favorite thing in arthistory is seeing artists in
their studio clothes.
That's my favorite thing.
Seeing Helen in her apron,seeing Pollock in his paint

(16:57):
cover boots, seeing JohnMichelle in his wooden shoes and
the clothes he would wear.
Like those things, him barefoot, with ripped jeans and no shirt
on and paint all over in thisMary Boone studio.
Like, those things are likewhat drove and it's like I need
to live like the artist.
But I also took that the otherstep later on and went well, I'm
going to dress, I'm going towear that anywhere I go.
So you'll see me at the coffeeshop and I'll have my studio

(17:20):
clothes on, I'll have my, youknow.
And it's a way for me also tobe educator, because somebody
will always ask me hey, what Ilike your pants, are you an
artist?
Like yeah, oh, what do you do?
And now it's time for me toeducate somebody.
Well, this is what an artistdoes.
I'm just here studying today,but I'm usually in my studio and
so.
But for me, that really was amindset shift that, I feel like,

(17:42):
took me from playing the gameto getting in the game.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
Yeah, yeah, I love that Section 18, again, get the
book, read the book.
It's really really.
We're just touching on some ofthe highlights that really stick
out to us that we wanted todiscuss today, but one of the
really cool things about thissection in particular is that
Jerry adds a number of exercisesthat are recommended and really
, really interesting.
The one from this sectionreally stuck out to me and it's

(18:07):
one, ty, that you talk about alot in your program, but the
exercise is study thecomposition style of each of
these artists or genres.
Don't read, just look andidentify loosely as heaven or
hell.
That's a reference to somethingearlier in the section.
But one of the things that youtalk about in your program, a
lot is just sitting with, andthis is true whether we're just

(18:32):
observing art however we canaccess it on our devices or when
we get to look at it andexperience it in person.
But it's really consideringokay, what does this make me
think?
What does this make me feel?
What do I like about this?
And one of the things I learnedfrom you was when you look at
or spend time with work that youdon't like, why don't I like

(18:54):
this?
What don't I like about this.
What don't I like about howthis makes me feel there's a lot
of value in identifying both ofthe above.
Yep, yeah, and that wassomething that I think Jerry
talks about in identifying bothof the above.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yeah, yeah, and that was something that I think Jerry
talks about a little later onthe book, I think.
If it was here, I'm not sure ifit was a lecture.
But he says don't just look atwork you like.
Also, go look at work you hateand then talk to yourself about
why.
And I think that really doeshelp with our own criticism.
When we get criticism from otherpeople like at least we're not

(19:25):
just because we're going to getshitty criticism, especially if
we have our work on social media.
It's an open door for trolls.
It's an open door for MFAstudents or people who are
really struggling as artists totake their angst out on somebody
who may have success or maybedoing something they don't like
and we'll talk about that later.
But when you're able to look atwork you don't like and talk

(19:49):
about to yourself why you don'tlike it, when you get criticism
from somebody doesn't like yourwork, now you're able to kind of
look at both sides.
You're not just taking it in ashurt and pain and F you, how do
you not like my piece?
You're going oh, what did theynot like about it?
What are they saying?
Is there some truth to it?
No, there isn't.
Or, yes, there is, and I, jerry, really taught me that and I
think that that's really helpedme when I've received either no

(20:09):
criticism, because it's easywhen we have none to go.
Well, everybody hates it.
That's why nobody's sayinganything, whatever.
So but it's helped me to kindof put things on a level playing
field.
When it used to be more hurtfuland more painful to take that
negative criticism on, it'sreally helped make it more level
for me.

Speaker 1 (20:31):
I love this next section.
Yes, yes, 19 embed thought inmaterial.
What does this mean?
An artwork should expressthought and emotion.
I contend the two can't beseparated.
We couldn't unpack that fordays.
Yeah, your goal as an artist isto use physical materials to
make these thoughts and emotions, however simple or complex,

(20:52):
accessible to the viewer.
Materials have the potential totake a previously empty space
and suffuse it with new meanings, meanings that will continue to
transform over time.
Eric Fischel has said that hewanted to paint what couldn't be
said.
All artists are trying, on somelevel, to do the same.
Wow, yeah, that's my best timeimpression.

(21:15):
Wow, wow.
I want to say something aboutthat.
I want you to say somethingabout that but I kind of just
need to sit with it.
Yeah, I know, I love it.
I know, I know, I know I've gotstars and arrows everywhere on
this.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
This is the.
This is the challenge, right,nathan?
This is the challenge for anartist.
It is our goal to use physicalmaterials to make thoughts and
emotions accessible to theviewer.
Yeah, that is the biggest, thegreatest single challenge for

(21:48):
the artist.
Because we have to.
We're creating us, we'recreating our story, we're
creating what we want to say.
We're creating us.
The challenge is how does usbecome accessible to the viewer
once it's on a wall or in themiddle of the floor or filling a
space?
Yeah, right, you're taking whatdidn't used to have anything

(22:12):
and you're now creatingsomething that's going there.
How do we make that accessibleto the viewer?
Through thoughts and emotion.
And I love how he says here atthe bottom, after he talks about
what artists work with andmaterials.
My materials are words andemotion.
And I love how he says here atthe bottom, after he talks about
what artists work with thematerials.
My materials are words andsentences, similes and
conjectures.
They are all embedded with theway I think and feel.

(22:34):
If you are able to do this withthe materials you choose, even
if viewers misinterpret yourwork, it will strike them as
distinctly yours and this willgive your materials agency and
energy.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
Distinctly yours, yours, italicized distinctly
yours.
That's what we're after, I meanin bed.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah, that's why you talked about if you were going
to come and watch me in thestudio for an entire day.
It's going to be a lot lessinteresting than the 10 seconds
I shared on an Instagram reel,right, because I know you're
spending an enormous amount oftime figuring out how to embed
thought into the material, andthat takes listening, looking,

(23:26):
sitting, thinking, and I spend alot of time doing that.
I've talked about this foryears.
I had a.
I had a show that was verypersonal in the work, and as I
was working on it, I wasthinking, man, if I can't really
tell the story and talk aboutit, how are people going to to
see these emotions and the storyand the feelings that are

(23:48):
coming out in the work?
And so I took probably a coupleof weeks and just started
journaling about this idea howdoes my work speak when I'm not
in the room?
Right, and I really came to theconclusion of well, I need to
put more thought and time intomy materials, into my technique,
into things, in the hopes thatit will speak when it's on the

(24:09):
wall.
Yeah, and so time went in, notonly to the work but the titles
that didn't give awayinformation, but the entire, the
entire, uh, body work read likea book.
That actually read like a, amonologue or a dialogue from
each title throughout the work,from work number one to like
work 28.
And I had a few pieces in anexhibition in Austin and I came

(24:32):
in I think it was the secondmorning of the exhibition and
there were two women by the work, by a couple of pieces, and
they said, hey, we have aquestion for you.
And I was like, yeah, they said, hey, this feels like it reads
like a story, like a reallypersonal story, and we're both
theater majors from UT,university of Texas at Austin,

(24:54):
and we were in here looking atit and we ended up going through
and reading this as a dialoguewith each other and we were just
in tears and I was like that'sit, that's what my hopes were.
You know what I mean.
And I think if I hadn't spentas much time really thinking
through and just making withoutspending the time, it may not

(25:16):
have been as accessible to theviewer when they saw it and were
able to translate that.
So that's something that I'mconstantly thinking about and
processing when I'm in thestudio with my work.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
The material is just material until we do something
with it.
Yep, and as someone who isworking with an ever-expanding
range of found and discarded,you know, mostly industrial
waste I it takes time to figureout what the material itself is

(25:49):
saying on its own and to then Imean and so it's a two-part
process for me, probably morethan that, but to simplify it,
what is the material able tophysically do?
How can it be transformed?
You know, I was joking withsomebody the other day.
I was telling them, showingthem some work that had the
coroplast on it, and I said thismay or may not be true, but I'm

(26:13):
fairly certain that there's noone else on the planet who knows
as much as I do about how thismaterial behaves when it's
exposed to heat and cold andwater and acid.
And for me it's.
It's for me and you it's thatprocess of really like boiling
it down to its essence, seeingwhat the material has, the what,

(26:36):
what vocabulary does thematerial itself inherently have
to be able to communicate?
And then the second part ofthat process is okay, great, now
I know how to manipulate it,how to, how to, to transform it.
What do I want to say with it?
What, what, what do I want thematerial to say without me in
the room?
Right, yeah, and that's that'sreally where I think the, the,

(26:58):
the.
The magic happens is, you know,if, if the goal is to have
viewers interpret, misinterpret,whatever the work itself, but
to strike them as distinctlyyours, this will give your
materials agency and energy.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
I love that, yeah, and he says on the next page,
just over, at the end of theparagraph a work of art cannot
depend on explanation.
The meaning has got to be therein the work.
As Frank Stella said, there areno good ideas for paintings,
there are only good paintings.
The painting becomes the idea.
I think that's something thatJack Whitten was constantly

(27:37):
wrestling with, constantlywrestling with.
He wanted his work to exist,not be defined, you know what I
mean.
And so he's constantly tryingto find the way that the work,
when it's up, it exists and itlives without a definition.

(27:58):
You know what I mean.
To have this life within itwhere he felt like other artists
just were creating something.
They were defined by the genrethat they were creating in and
just fitting into it.
He did not want to be that.
He wanted his paintings toexist on their own.
He wanted the painting, likeFrank Stella said, become the
idea.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
Yes, well, we talked about this in our.
Our Leonardo drew episodes aswell.
He talks about that, right, howhe uses letters and numbers.
He just, you know, I don't wantto give you any additional
information.
You know, I don't want to giveyou any additional information.
You know, clifford, still samething.
Just this is what it is and dowith it what you will, but I'm
not going to give you any clues,I'm not going to inform your

(28:40):
experience with it.
So, in thinking back to LouiseBourgeois, you know, when she
said if this doesn't touch you,I have failed.
Yep, it's got to touch you, notby by interpretation or by
explanation, or how did Stellasay?
It depend on the work, cannotdepend on explanation, right?

(29:01):
Yeah, we've talked about this alot in previous episodes, but
it's something, obviously, thatwe both feel, feel strongly
about.
The painting becomes the idea,and he closes the section with
the Jay-Z quote you makematerials do more work than they
normally do to make them workon more than one level.

(29:22):
You make materials do more workthan they normally do to make
them work on more than one level.
Yep, I got nothing out of that.
I just want to read it, I guess.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
No, I think the only addition to that is on section
20, the last sentence there, onpage 45,.
He says art is like a burningbush it puts out more energy
than went into its making.
This is what is meant by ourslonger, but think about, that's
everything that we just talkedabout there.

(29:55):
The art, once it's up, onceit's away from the studio, puts
out more energy than went intoits making.
Now, I don't think that thatshould be a flat statement of
all work does this?
You know what I mean, because Idefinitely have seen a lot of
work that I just go meh okay,next, and we move.

(30:16):
We all have.
We've all been in museums whereit's supposed to be the
greatest artists on the wallsand you walk by a work and go
doesn't do it for me.
Moving on.
But then there's a work you'venever seen and you just your
breath's taken away and youcan't breathe and you're like
what's going on with me rightnow?
Holy crap, this piece of art.

(30:37):
That is when the work isputting out more energy than
when it to its making and itlasts forever.

Speaker 1 (30:39):
I want to break this whole section down because I've
got nothing but arrows and notesand things underlined.
Art, section 20, art is aflatworm.
Like a flatworm, art possessesthe astounding ability of
regeneration.
Split your work in any way,lengthwise, widthwise, into

(31:03):
irregular pieces, using just oneidea or element from the whole,
and it can grow into anentirely new organism.
I don't know why this came tomind when I was reading this,
but it's like kombucha orsourdough bread I don't know
what that's called.
I've never made either one, butI know there's a, a mother sort
of what's it called?
Do you know the word for it?
So at least one listener'sscreaming it right now.
But what I know?

Speaker 2 (31:23):
and my neighbor would be ticked at me cause he's a,
he makes sourdough and leaves mebread on the fence all the time
.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
Yeah, I love it.
So yeah, I mean, but that's thepoint, right, it's like using
just one idea or element fromthe whole, it grows into an
entirely new organism.
Every part of this new entityin turn will have the ability to
engender another new form,which may itself grow into a
self-sufficient organism thatretains the memories of the

(31:49):
original.
Yep, it's the sourdough starter.
It's a living culture.
So all it takes is a seed, allit takes is a starter.
Right, we pull the thread, wesee where it leads, we start on
the trail like we were talkingabout in part one, and we wander
off course into the unknown.
But it's still going to have,it's still going to have the

(32:11):
memory of the original, there'sstill going to be a through line
from where it started.
But where it takes us is that.
That's the great unknown.
You know he writes vivisectyourself.
Any material gesture, color,surface, idea can grow again
into a new branch of your work.
It will have the potential todevelop an unforeseen ways to
accrete and conjoin into newstructures.

(32:33):
That will almost inevitablymean more than you've intended.
You know, and I think all ofthis as we think about how to
apply this idea to our own artmaking process, a lot of it.
It just requires thatwillingness to continue to delve
into the unknown.
You know you shared your bundleof yarn.

(32:54):
Yeah, I don't know where this isgoing, but it's.
But I feel like I have to dosomething.
Thank you, yes, but I feel likeI have to do something with it,
and so it's.
So it's chasing that as opposedto you, know what would be the
safe route, the easy route which, as opposed to you, know what
would be the safe route, theeasy route which is oh, this is.
This is a little bit off, thisis a bit left, this is a bit of

(33:17):
off field, this is a little bitfurther away from where I'm
comfortable or where I'mfamiliar.
Let me, let me get.
Let me get back in my, let meget back in my lane.
Yeah, no, no, no, it's continueto veer out of your lane,
knowing that you can always goback and to the point of this
section, because it originatedfrom.
You know where it started, andmaybe it's just you, maybe it's

(33:38):
just you alone that can see thethrough line or connect the dots
, you know, from here to there,who knows where there is going
to be willing to embrace andlean into these whispers, these
voices, the pull to just seewhere that goes and see what it
could regenerate on its own.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
Well, and that's what I'm doing, listening to those
wild voices in my head, section21.
Follow up to the flat forms.
Right, it's just the flatworms.
It's just what you're saying,like I'm listening and I love
how he says I have my own sortof school of Athens in my head
the team of rivals, friends,famous people, influences, dead
and alive, and they're alllooking over my shoulder when I

(34:18):
work.
They're giving me observationsand suggestions.
None of them are mean.
I love that.
He's like.
I have all these things thatare constantly going in my head.
Whitman pushes me to merge mywork with anything, melville
gets grand oise, and Prowsedrives me to extend my sentences
till they break up and myeditors cut them down.
Think about the voices in yourprivate psyche.

(34:40):
Get to know them.
They'll always be there whenthings get tough.
Man, I hammer this into theartist in my program's head
constantly Read, study, study,read, look, read.
If there's an artist that youlove, there's a reason why.
If you love their work, whattheir work says, all those

(35:02):
things, maybe you share the samethought process as them.
Maybe you share some type ofconnection with them, creatively
, artistically, the way youimagine things that you're drawn
to that person.
Study the hell out of them.
They're a peer, they're amentor, they're a teacher,
they're a coach, they'respiritual guide, whatever.

(35:22):
So I'm always when, when I'm I'mlike, ah, what would Louise
Bourgeois say about this?
When I'm working on somethingand I'm like I really want the
emotion of this story to comeout from my past.
How would she deal with this?
Well, I sew, she sews.
I love fiber, she loves fiber.
Is there a way for me to bringsome of those elements in?

(35:43):
I'm thinking about artists whowork with negative space very
well, like Joan Mitchell, cyTwombly, anthony Tappas, and I'm
thinking about what they wouldsay about composition.
When I'm working on work, thosevoices are always in my head
and that helps me.
When I get stuck and I'mfrustrated, I can't figure
things out, I have these coaches, these mentors I can fall back

(36:05):
on.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
A really important point to highlight here, and
this line just jumps off thepage None of them are mean.
So what you're talking about,what Jerry's writing about, is
the way I interpret it curatingthe voices that you allow to
speak.
Yeah, absolutely, curating whoit is that you are being

(36:30):
influenced by and listening toand making sure that they are
not mean.
I don't know about you.
Actually, I can say this with afair amount of certainty for
you as well.
There's plenty of mean voicesthat pop up from time to time as
well.
Yeah, absolutely.

(36:56):
Maybe we got to call thebouncer over and say this this
person is, uh, is notcontributing to the vibe, but
you know it's, it's, but it'sbeing intentional about.
You know who we're listening toand and really listening with
intention of.
Is this a mean voice?
Cause if it's a mean voice, itprobably doesn't belong.
Yes, yep, speaking of voices,see, I'm trying.

(37:20):
I'm trying to uh 22,.
Find your voice, then exaggerateit.
If someone says your work lookslike someone else's and you
should stop making it, I saydon't stop, not yet, do it again
, do it a hundred or a thousandtimes.
Then ask an artist friend,someone you trust highlight
those words an artist friend,someone you trust, whether your

(37:44):
work still looks too much likethe other person's art.
If your friend says yes, tryanother path.
And then he uses the example ofPhilip Guston, which is perfect
, and this is again anotherreason to get the book, because
he shows two perfect examples ofwhat Gustin was doing in his,
you know, abex phase, in the, inthe or whatever period in the
fifties, and then what it became, uh, uh, this piece is from

(38:07):
1969, when he started to do thework that he's, you know now
probably best known for, butit's it's, it's a wild
transformation, you know, okay.
So then Jerry goes on to writeabout Gustin.
His story is also an example ofhow artists can't always
control or even predict theresults their machine, their
machine creates.

(38:27):
And so I think about this tielike to get here.
We have to let go of thecompulsion to control, to direct
, to predict, to influence.
We have to get in the passengerseat, you know, or the, or the
backseat, or the freaking trunkyou know what I mean.
Like the, the motion someoneelse's driving is, is is kind of

(38:51):
the point, the machine inJerry's example here, the
machine of our practice, themachine of our um art making.
Process is what's going to takeit wherever it's going to go.
Process is what's going to takeit wherever it's going to go,
and for me, the less I feel likeI am driving, the better off I
am.
You know, I'm thinking aboutand we're going to do a, we're
we're preparing for a, a PhilipGuston episode as well.

(39:13):
But I'm thinking about from thedoc I'm going to paraphrase here
.
But he's, he's speaking tosomebody in the studio and he
says you know, when you start,there's all these different
people in the room.
You know there's there'sdealers, there's critics,
there's curators, there'sthere's collectors, there's
museums, and he goes and after awhile, you know they all leave
and then hopefully you leave aswell.

(39:35):
I just, I love that.
We'll talk all about that inour Gus and episode, but that's
that's.
I think you know what Jerry'stalking about here.
But I think to get there wehave to get to a place where we
can let go.
Let go of the wheel, let go ofcontrol.
Resist that compulsion todirect exactly where we're going

(39:55):
.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
Yeah, and man, I had this conversation with one of my
current mentees a while backand actually quite a few artists
that have been through myprogram, because they'll have
other artists that say, oh, yourwork looks too much like
so-and-so, your work looks toomuch like this, your work looks
just like this, do somethingelse.
And I always say no, you're noteven anywhere yet, anywhere.

(40:23):
Yet.
You know it's like now.
If you're starting to get intogalleries and your work's
starting to move and your workstill looks just like
Frankenthaler's or looks justlike a Cy Twombly piece or looks
just like a Mark Bradford piece, well it's time to start
changing a little bit.
You know what I mean.
It's time to start evolving.
But in the beginning, whenyou're starting out and you're
not even anywhere yet, you needto practice.

(40:43):
Keep making more work thatlooks just like Joan Mitchell's
work, keep making more work thatlooks just like so-and-so's
work.
Just keep making it, becauseeventually you're going to find
you in it.
And I'm not saying take apainting and copy it Sometimes.
Yes, do that in your studio,but don't put that work out the
door.
If you're really working ongestures and marks and you're

(41:05):
trying to copy some side twomblythings and what he's doing.
I've done this in the past.
Every artist does, and if theysay they don't, they're lying.
They're just scared to admitthat they were copying somebody
to get to where they are.
This is part of it.
Every artist in history hasdone this.

(41:26):
You're going to practice.
That doesn't mean that thatpiece that ends up it's an exact
replica of a side twombly goesout the door.
Let's practice.
You're going to find yourselfin those things.
That's how we learn.
That's how you practice whenyou go to art school.
You're trying, you'repracticing.
You're doing things.
The teacher's telling you howto do them.
You're learning all thesethings, Not telling you how to
do them.
You're learning all thesethings.
Not everybody has the abilityto go to art school, so you need
to practice in your studio.
You need to teach yourself.
What's the best way to teachyourself?
Copy what others are doing.

(41:47):
Was every great musician in theworld done.
They've learned certain songsfirst from other musicians and
then created their own music outof their subconscious and the
way things go, the best writersare influenced by other great
writers.
The best filmmakers are copyingother filmmakers and they're
making better films than thatfilmmaker did, or worse.
It just depends.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
Look no further than any of the above Writers,
musicians, artists, I mean.
The early work is almost always, almost invariably, a copy-ish,
imitation-ish version ofsomething else that was better
known.
That was their starting offpoint when Jerry talked about
Mary Shelley.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
How many Frankenstein films have been made?
How many books have beenwritten with the same idea?
Doctor person creates somethingnew that becomes a monster.
Right, it's like so manymonster stories come from the
same idea.
It's just been redone Someterribly, some better but it's
taking a general idea and it'sworking off of it.

(42:50):
That's okay, people.
That's all right.
Don't be discouraged.
Find yourself in it, though.
Don't stay in the one formula.
Deviate into other formulasfrom that formula that you love.
That's where you find you.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
Yes, 23, clear the studio.
Agnes Martin, this is just.
I mean, this is just whenyou're stuck, muddled or you
feel you can't move on.
Try clearing your studio orcleaning it picking up, sweeping
, moving things around, makingnew piles of old clutter.
My wife is a world champion ofthis last technique, which helps

(43:27):
her write perfect text.
You can do this every day.
It's a way of being physical,breathing into the work,
creeping up on a task at hand.
Maybe you'll find something ina pile that sparks a new idea,
mushrooms into fresh growth andyou'll be making space for what
goes requested on his deathbedMore light, more light.

(43:47):
I mean, this is a, this is a 10out of 10 tip.
I mean it's, it's super.
You know, uh, tech, tacticaland and and practical right, but
it's, it's man.
This, this, this never doesn'twork for me.
It never fails to do that.
It's like, oh, you know, andliterally I mean just by virtue

(44:08):
of, like, touching things andmoving them around and, and you
know, having piles and piles ofdifferent material and things in
different like, oh, thisactually might work with you
know, oh, but it's, it's.
It's that, it's that tactileexperience of touching things,
of just clearing space to beable to even move things around
when I'm stuck.
This is first on the list ofways to get stuck.

Speaker 2 (44:26):
It's the anti-Francis Bacon.
Yeah, correct, that's the twoopposite forms of thought.
You have the Agnes Martin.
She needed the clean spacebecause she needed a meditative
space to work in, and if therewas ever any clutter or
something out of order for her,it distracted from that focus

(44:47):
and that solitude that shewanted her space to be.
And then you have the FrancisBacon's of the world that are
like no, I need the mess, I needthe clutter, I need the shit
storm everywhere around me.
But I'm more on the side of anytime I'm really struggling.
If I straighten up, it gets meback, gets me back on path.
When I straighten up and cleansome things.

Speaker 1 (45:08):
I had an artist friend in my studio once and and
uh, and they said this is weird, how organized your space is,
because everything's,everything's labeled.
You know, I've got a widevariety of of of tools and
materials, some of which arebeing actively used and many of
which are just, you know, therefor for whenever I might need
them.
But, uh.
But I said, listen, that's thatis for me, that is the only

(45:31):
thing, that that is the sort ofantidote to a very disorganized
mind.
Yeah, like I think you know so,someone like bacon or somebody
who's able to operate in that,in that, in that chaos of space,
I, I, I cannot imagine thatit's.
I mean, ultimately, whatever,whatever you know works for you,
but I need to know that whensomething pops to mind, I know

(45:53):
where the thing, that the thingor things that I'm going to need
to execute are, and I can getto them and pull them out and
have them in my hands and begetting after it right away, as
opposed to.
Well, I think it was over herein one of these piles.
Let me waste the next hourtrying to find it, dust it off
and by the time it's finally inhand.
The moment's gone so clear thestudio, kids 24, no wasted days.

(46:17):
So good, your artist's mind isalways working, even when you
think it's idling in the studio.
Even doing nothing can be aform of working.
This is also true when you'reout walking, traveling, worrying
, staying awake all night,whatever.
All these things will be a partof your work.
Even when you seem to be goingnowhere, things are happening.

(46:38):
You are your method, your lifeis a part of your work.
A bad day is a good day, thepainter Stanley Whitney said,
because a bad day is when you'retrying to take it to a
different level.
This is a mantra that is to bememorized, ty, and repeated as
many times as needed for it toreally sink in.

(46:59):
I have to remind myself of thisall the freaking time.
I'm an achiever, I want to getthings done, I want to have this
.
I'm chasing this feeling ofaccomplishment.
You know, all the time justgoing around trying to gobble up
little, little gold stars.
You know, throughout the day totry to make myself feel like
I'm okay.
But you know that mantra ofthere's no wasted days.

(47:22):
You know, and I, I had this, Ihad this realization a while
back.
I'm curious if you've hadanything, anything similar
happened with to you, but I have.
I had this realization that,especially the days that when it
feels like nothing happens,when I'm closing up the studio
and I'm walking away, I'm justlike, well, shit, that was just

(47:45):
an absolute.
I might as well have not evendone anything today, almost
invariably the next day thingsjust flow.
So this is one of those likereinforcing beliefs that may or
may not be true, but I try tolock that in when I'm like nope,
tomorrow's going to be great.
No wasted days.
I've never had two bad days ina row, because it always is what

(48:08):
sets up.
What's next?
Maybe it's the next day, maybeit's not, but the point is no
day is wasted, no effort iswasted.
No time when the machine isrunning, when we're taking
action, when we're in our space,when we're when we're taking
action, when we're in our space,when we're doing the thing, is
truly wasted.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
I think this is just a mental landscape for me that I
have, I think, grown into towhere I'm now, at that point in
my life with my desires and mydreams for where I want my art
to go to be able, at the end ofa bad day, to take a deep breath
and go.
I'm so glad I went through thatBecause I know, like Jerry says

(48:49):
, at the end the artist sayslike because that's a day that's
taken me further than a daywhere things were going right.
Because in history, strugglegets you somewhere, a lot, where
you end up stronger, moredeveloped, with more wisdom and

(49:11):
more knowledge through strugglethan through ease.
And so the friends that I havewho have been through enormous
struggle have, who have beenthrough enormous struggle,
friends of mine who are firstgeneration immigrants who have
gone through enormous struggle.
There's just something abouttheir character, their

(49:31):
personality, their fight, theiropenness that just dominates
people who haven't been throughthe struggle.
Now, I'm not saying there aren'tpeople at the same level who
haven't been through thestruggle.
Now I'm not saying there aren'tpeople at the same level who
haven't been through struggle,but they may have gotten there
in a lot longer time or a lotdifferent scenarios, but
struggle creates greatness.

(49:53):
I truly, truly believe that and, as an artist, if you're
willing to struggle and be okaywith it, the things that will
come out of that will shock thehell out of you, because I see
artists all the time.
The next page leans into this25, know what you hate?
It's probably you.

Speaker 1 (50:12):
Let me speak to that.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
I just want to finish this, though, just because that
next page I hate, and I don'tlike hate that's such a strong
word I really dislike.
When I see art that I can tellhas not gone through a struggle,
when I see art that is void ofemotion or character, that seems
very untruthful and I can seethat the whoever it was in the

(50:39):
studio, because of Instagramthese days that they're just
kind of going through themotions, and so for me, I don't
want to be that artist.
So I recognize things that Idislike and I pay attention to
them to remind myself to not bethat, and I think part of that
is the struggle.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
I don't agree with that.
I don't agree with that.
Maybe we just have differentperspectives.
We really need to spend timewhen we don't agree because it
doesn't happen very often.
Well, the part where I meanwhat you're saying to me and
maybe I'm just misunderstandingyou, I'm not that bright it's
entirely possible, but to mewhat you're saying presumes that
you know what struggle lookslike for them and their practice

(51:23):
, which I would argue isimpossible.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
Well, you know what I'm saying?
Yeah, and without trying tosound like I'm overconfident.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
I love snobby tie.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
No, you know what I'm going to be snobby tie.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
I'm just going to be snobby tie.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
I've been around art so long and I've looked at a lot
of art, I've spent a lot oftime in a lot of artists studios
uh, in my 50 years here on thisearth, and I spent a lot of
time with artists period, and Istudy art like crazy and I think
it's it's easy for me toseparate those who are really
struggling to grow in their workand those who are just making

(51:58):
the work.
Now, do whatever you want,that's okay.
I mean, this is my, my opinion.
This isn't based on fact.
This is my opinion.
I really feel like I can seework that's powerful and work
that isn't, and the separationis those who are really
struggling through growing andexperimenting and doing things
and those who are just kind offollowing a trend, and so that

(52:19):
separation of what I feel is atrend that is a whole new
element into what you're saying.
Okay, an artist.
I mean an artist who follows atrend.
It just looks like everythingelse and it's a void of
something, but artists who arekind of bucking the trend and
really struggling and workingthrough things.
Something's happening, there'ssomething, there's a pole,
there's truth within that workand that pulls me in and

(52:40):
separates the other.
For me, that's really what I'mtrying to say.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
Copy Understood All right, let's close out part two
with the last section in whatthese called again lessons.
No, they're not steps.
Okay, let's close out part twoof this podcast series on how to
be an artist by Jerry Saltz, byfinishing step two, which is

(53:06):
number 26.
Finish, the damn thing.
Everyone thinks their workmight be better.
If only they had a little moretime with it.
Isn't that true?
Yes, skipping down your workwill never be perfect.
Perfect doesn't exist.
Nothing is ever really justright.
There's always more you can do.

(53:27):
Too bad.
It's as good as it can be rightnow, and that's probably more
than good enough.
You'll make the next one betteror different or more like
yourself.
Do not get hung up working onone super project forever.
For now, make something, learnsomething and move on, or you'll
be buried waist deep in the bigmuddy of perfectionism.

(53:49):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
I mean, we kind of could have done this a lot of
time.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
We could have just read this and been like yep and
then called it the next section.
But it's so true, I mean it's,it's, it's just so, so true,
right.
Like I have not had a, I meanevery, every, every show has
culminated in me finishing workwith the flurry.
You know, pulling more more allnighters than I had since

(54:13):
trying to cram for exams.
You know, in in in college,just frenzied, you know, uh,
flourishes of what I just has toget done and, um, you know,
delaying shipping, delaying, youknow, flights, all of those
things until the last, lastpossible moment.
And one of the things that I'velearned about that is that, like

(54:35):
, looking back at some of thework where I was like, well, I
think this is done, it has to beright, when there actually are,
you know, in our regularpractice, there aren't a lot, of
, a lot of a lot of firm.
You know deadlines, and whatI'm referring to is like those
that last.
You know whatever, two or threepieces of many others that have
been done for quite some time,but it's still like I could, I,

(54:59):
just because I this is areminder that I try to repeat to
myself Just because I can domore doesn't mean that I should.
Just because you can doesn'tmean that you should.
I mean it's kind of a goodthing to keep in mind, broadly
speaking, in life as well.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
Usually for me, I'm working towards a show, so I'm
pulling those all-nighters andI'm doing a ton of stuff.
And then I get to the last fewpieces I'm working on and then I
hit a stride, yeah.
And then I go, oh, shoot, Ishould make six more or eight
more, right?
And then I will.
All of a sudden, I make sixmore.
I'm like, oh, these are goingwhere they're supposed to go.

(55:38):
And then I'm going, ooh, theseare going where they're supposed
to go.
And then I'm going well, thendo I disregard the first six?
I did, and now I'll move onwith these.
And I usually kind of go, no, no, no, I did the work.
It's telling me where it'sgoing.
This body work's done, new bodywork begins.
Now let's run with this.
But that's every time.
There's never a time where I'mlike, yep, did it, got it?

(55:59):
No, it's always like, oh, if Ijust oh.
And then, when it's all up onthe wall and you walk into the
show and then you go, oh, Ishould have done this with those
and this, and so I've had toalso adjust that emotional
landscape and that thinking overtime, and go no, I did the best
I could do in that moment, witha celebration behind me.

(56:20):
It's telling me how good I did.
I just had the uh, the Appleemojis go off on my phone there
behind me, but I got to thatpoint, but you've had this
experience, though.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
Then someone pulls you over and says this is my
favorite piece.
Yes, oh yeah, all the time.
Then time passes and you lookback on it and you're like, oh,
that, actually, you know what Imean.
So it's trusting ourselves inthe moment, but also being
willing to be surprised.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
Yeah, do the just understand you're doing the best
you can do today, right Withthat work, and know that each
time you do it, you're going tolook at it and go, how can I
improve it tomorrow, how can Iimprove it the next time?
And just keep growing.
But you have to finish thatidea to move on to the next one.
You know, if you're setting outand you have that idea in your

(57:09):
head of I want to, I'm going tostart working with fiber.
Like me, I work with fiber.
I've worked with fiber for along time, but I'm increasing
that output of fiber.
Yes, and so it's like but if Idon't start it, then I don't get
moving on it and if I don'tfinish the ideas I'm working on,

(57:29):
it's not going to take me tothe next ones.
I'm just going to keepexperimenting forever.
I never have anything that'sreally finished to show for it.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
It's back to that idea of thinking about the time
that we have available, which,of course, is unknown to us.
But whether we have you know,you and I, if this is our last
day in the studio, or whether weget, you know, 60 more years,
whatever the case is, there's afinite amount of time and energy
that we have to put into, youknow, more work.
So it's like, okay, could Imake this piece 3% better by

(57:59):
investing 10 more hours?
I mean sure, but how muchfurther could I get, how much
more could the work progress bytaking that time and that's what
Jerry's saying into subsequentwork?
Right, that's the key.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
Absolutely.
And then the next step in allof this is how to think like an
artist.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
All right.
So, ty, that's a good place towrap up for today.
We're going to land the planeon step two.
We will not share, dearlisteners, the part that we just
cut out, but join us next timeon our next episode of Just Make
Art, for part three, on thisphenomenal book that we both
love how to Be an Artist by MrJerry Seltz.
Anything else to add?

Speaker 2 (58:37):
Nope, bye by Mr Jerry Sultz.

Speaker 1 (58:39):
Anything else to add?
Nope, bye, perfect Bye.