Part 3. Breaking down: How to Be An Artist by Jerry Saltz.

Part 3. Diving deep into Jerry Saltz's "How to Be an Artist," we explore the transformative journey of learning to think like an artist. This episode unpacks the beautiful paradox that while art remains unchanged physically, it's never the same when we experience it – as Saltz writes, "an unchanging thing that is never the same." We discuss how becoming a "seeing machine" develops your artistic eye, examining artwork up close, questioning materials and processes, and truly noticing rather than merely looking.

One of the most powerful concepts we explore is embracing artistic inconsistency. When Saltz writes, "Don't resist something if you're afraid it's taking you far afield from your usual direction. That's the wild animal in you feeding," he reminds us that creative evolution requires following our instincts even when they lead us into unfamiliar territory. This is how artists avoid becoming creatively caged – by allowing ourselves to experiment freely.

The conversation takes a particularly meaningful turn when discussing courage as "a desperate gamble that will place you in the arms of creative angels." We examine how artists throughout history, from Alice Neel to Ellsworth Kelly, displayed remarkable bravery by pursuing their unique visions despite working against prevailing movements of their time. Their courage to follow their intuitive logic ultimately led to extraordinary contributions to art history.

Perhaps most reassuringly, we break down Saltz's practical insight that an artist's career can be sustained by surprisingly few supporters – just one dedicated dealer, a handful of collectors, and a few critics or curators who understand the work. The challenge lies in putting yourself out there consistently, showing up at exhibitions, and actively participating in the art community.

What will you discover about your own creative process by training yourself to see differently? How might embracing your artistic inconsistencies lead to unexpected breakthroughs? Join us as we continue our exploration of what it truly means to be an artist in today's world.

Send us a message - we would love to hear from you!

Make sure to follow us on Instagram here:

@justmakeartpodcast @tynathanclark @nathanterborg

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hey, nathan, I've got your gift you sent me.
The first time you went to theClifford Steele Museum, you
bought me this shirt and gave itto me.
Remember that?
Yes, I do.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
I recognize it as soon as you hopped on.
Yeah, I got a little cliff onhere today, you know, and I
think that's good.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
It's good because we're moving into part three of
Jerry's how to be an artist byJerry salts, that we keep
reading and reading and reading,and you know Clifford's
reminding me today, as we moveinto step three, learning to
think like an artist.
You know, got some lessons fromClifford.
We have a Clifford stillepisode that's out from, I think

(00:43):
, a year ago, maybe a little bitlonger, where you were actually
in the Clifford Still museumrecording.
So if any of you have not seenthat episode, I highly suggest
it because the background isabsolutely not that I don't love
your background right now.
Nathan, with your work behindyou, it looks like you were set
up for a studio visit orsomething.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
I was.
I had, um, I've had eightpeople come through this week,
Wow, heck, yeah, yeah.
So we took that opportunity todo a full studio reset and uh
spend some time doing the shitwork, as you like to call it of
just cleaning house.
Yes, my uh, my in-house staff,which comprised of my oldest
daughter and her boyfriend, uh,and my wife God bless her.

(01:24):
She came in as well and uh andhelped, helped as well.
So all hands on deck, and it's,uh, as spiffy as it's been in
quite some time.
Speaking of gifts, though, I uh, before you hop in here, I do
have something else I picked upfor you in New York as well.
It's not quite as cool as ashirt, but uh, you'll get.
You'll get that in the mailsometime between a week from now
and eight months.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Love it.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, no, I love this section and the subtitle is
this is the fun part.
So learning to think like anartist, this is the fun part, so
let's have some fun.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
Let's do it.
Where do you want to start?
Let's start with you.
What do you got?

Speaker 2 (01:59):
Okay, let's just start on the first one.
All art is subjective, jerrywrites.
What does subjective mean?
It means that, though the textnever changes, every person who
sees Hamlet sees a differentplay.
Moreover, every time you seeHamlet, you see a different play
.
This is the case with almostall good art it's always

(02:20):
changing.
Every time you see it anew.
You think how did I miss thatbefore?
Yeah, I'm going to share aquick story and then I'll open
it up to your thoughts on thisone.
But we were and I'm probablygoing to reference my trip to
New York with our youngestdaughter, ella, that we took
last week a couple of times herebecause we saw a lot of art
while we were there.
But she wants to pursue theaterafter high school, so it was a

(02:41):
very Broadway heavy, uh,excursion, went to six shows in
five days, but she really wantedto see wicked on on Broadway
and I had seen wicked onBroadway, I think probably I
don't even know maybe 12, 13years ago, something like that.
And I said afterwards she askedme.
She said well, how was it?
How did this compare to thefirst time you saw it?

(03:01):
And I said I can't say exactlywhy, I don't know if I just
wasn't paying attention or what,but I felt like I watched that
show for the very first time.
Yeah, because there were somany different things that just
jumped out at me, and so hisexample of using Hamlet as a
play just kind of brought thatmemory to mind.
But it's just a very recentexample of how something can be

(03:24):
completely different, somethingvery similar or the same in the
case of a physical piece of art,can hit us in a very different
way depending upon where we'reat or how much time has passed
since we first saw it.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, I mean I have this experience every time I'm
at the Twombly Museum in Houstonthat we've referenced and
talked about before.
It's one of my favorite museumson the planet and it's three
hours down the road, so I'mthere quite a bit, but every
time I'm in there I spend a lotof time sitting with my journal
and writing about the work andreally as we'll talk about in a

(03:57):
few minutes really looking like,looking, looking and then and
so many things.
You know the time of day I comein the way that the museum set
up, the way that he had aspecific sail maker create, uh,
basically an awning over uhwindows in the ceiling.
Yeah, so he has these awningsthat are over skylights and so

(04:19):
the way that the light movesthrough those awnings they're
basically sails changes thedepth of the pieces and the
colors throughout the day, nomatter if the sun's high, low,
whatever.
So anytime I'm in there, it'sjust fun, at different times, to
see how these pieces, for me,take a whole new light and just
bring so much more wonder andquestions and asking about why

(04:39):
and how and all those things.
And I mean that's what I love.
It's just it's never the same,it's always different.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
It's just that idea of like.
No one ever steps in the sameriver twice.
You know, we're certainlydifferent, as is, as is the
river.
Jerry goes on to write art isan unchanging thing that is
never the same, a static entitythat somehow, whenever you
experience it, seems to beinhabited by poltergeists,
spontaneously generating newmessages for you.

(05:09):
And that's what you'redescribing and that's what I'm
hearing, right?
It's like every time you sitwith it, every time you spend
time at the Twalmy Museum oranywhere else, you have that huh
, you're seeing new things thathave always been there, to
Jerry's point, and I love theparadox and that little chunk of
wisdom, unchanging thing thatis never the same, right, you
know, it is the same, that isthe exact same, those are the

(05:30):
same works that you saw, howevermany months or years previous,
but it's.
But it changes, right, it'snever the same to us because
we're in a different place,we're receiving it differently
and it's hitting us in adifferent way in a different
place.
It's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
Yeah, and what effect should this have on your work?
He says, maybe just this let ittake some of the weight off
your shoulders, stop fiddlingand move on.
The work will keep changingitself.
That's an interesting littlestatement there.
Yeah, because we just talkedabout looking at work and seeing
it.
You know different each time.
But also that quit just takingso much time to figure your

(06:09):
piece out.
Right, think about it, do things, but you got to keep moving on
to the next piece, the next one,the next one.
You know, I left a voicemessage for one of my former
mentees today who's reallystruggling with work, like
nothing is just clicking, it'sjust, wants to white everything
out, start again, and it's just.
And I was, you know, and I toldher.
I said, listen, that's the game, you know, that's where we are

(06:32):
today.
That's being an artist.
Right, learn to be an art,learn how to be an artist Like
that's part of it.
This is slow, like I have noidea where the work's taking me
right now.
So many new things and newideas that I'm putting into the
work.
I have no idea, but I've onlybeen doing it for a few months,
so it's like I'm I'm nowhere.
I have to stop fiddling.
I got to just keep rolling androlling and rolling and moving

(06:54):
on, knowing that it's, it'sgoing to get somewhere
eventually.
But in art, time, which couldmean a year, could mean two
months, could mean two years.
Right, that's what I love about.
I mean Jack Whitten still.
I mean he is inspiring me dailywhen I read him in the morning
because he's if anybody figuredout time, jack Whitten did, yeah

(07:15):
, like he wrestled with time andknowing what it takes to put
time, effort in over long spellsto get where he wanted to go,
yeah.
And so every time I read it,I'm like, okay, I'm good.
I just keep thinking, I'm likeI'm okay.
If Jack were in the studio withme, he'd say keep going, just
keep going, don't stop, don'tworry, don't fiddle, just keep

(07:36):
moving on.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
Well, you better not get me started on Jack Cause.
That was one of the one of themusic shows that we went to at
MoMA, I know.
Unless you want me to talk for90 minutes straight and you just
sit there and listen.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
That'll be a future episode.
Well you, jane.
My friend Jane Dameron was justthere.
Frances Beattie was there.
She met Jacqueline Gordianthere.
Alison Hudson was just there, Idon't know how many friends.
Oh yeah, v and Sam were justthere.
I mean everybody.

(08:06):
I it's going and I don't havethe ability to go.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
I'm just like I'm dying inside, I think, unless
you get on a plane when we wrap,I think I think it closes.
It's about to close.

Speaker 1 (08:12):
I know Fingers crossed that somebody else picks
it up across the U?
S and it moves on to anotherlocation, but I haven't heard
anything yet.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
You know what we're talking about before it.
Um, it reminds me of an ideathat I was exposed to through,
uh, different writings about therecovery space, but this idea
of a new pair of glasses how,when our perspective on
something changes, we have acompletely new pair of glasses.
In other words, we're lookingat the same thing but the lens
has changed.
The lenses are different, right, the way we're perceiving it

(08:42):
and how it's landing with us isgoing to be, you know, just just
completely different, and Ithink that's a that's a really
beautiful thing.
To your point about our ownwork, I just shared the story of
resetting the space.
I pulled out and just kind ofset up a bunch of older work
that I had just been kind of,you know, sitting around in in
in storage for a long time, andthat's always a fun experience.
You know I've talked about thisbefore, but it's always an

(09:08):
interesting experience to now,you know, sit with Pete.
In fact, I'm looking at one tomy right here that I'd kind of
set aside and, you know, notleft for dead, but I decided at
the time I didn't love, or maybea year after it was made, I was
like, ah yeah, that wassomething that I made and that's
all right.
But now you know differentthings.
I can retroactively, you know,with the benefit of time,
hindsight, 2020, all that funstuff can look back and say, wow

(09:30):
, there was a lot.
This was, this was really aGenesis piece in some different
ways and there are some clues inhere, some different threads to
pull that had value goingforward.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
Absolutely.
And I love how he says on thenext page when he talks about
looking hard isn't just aboutlooking long.
Make yourself a seeing machine.
I love that on the next page.
I feel like I have reallyembraced being a seeing machine.
Looking openly means allowingyourself to access new sources
of visual interest.

(10:01):
Just look at things, practicethe openness and the world will
go larger and richer around you.
Like we talked about this inMontana too from the Mary Oliver
poem.
Like when we talk aboutnoticing things not just looking
at things, but really trulynoticing things and be a scene
machine.
I just I love that.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yeah, he closes out that section tie by writing
train yourself to lookdeliberately and the mysteries
of your taste, and I will becomeclearer to you.
I'd like to hear you talk aboutthat more, just this idea of
how do we is there anythingbeyond just looking more and

(10:40):
more intentionally that we cando to really, you know, develop
our taste and our eye?
How does that become more clearover time?

Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, I think for me it's looking and understanding
and thinking about it, and so Ithink that's kind of what he's
meaning here by make yourself ascene machine, like a machine
isn't just like moving its eyesand looking at it, so there's a
lot of moving parts that arehappening within a machine.
So, be a seeing machine, I'mlooking at everything.
I'm looking at.

(11:10):
You know, we'll talk about thisin a little bit.
I look at art I don't like.
I look at art that I love.
I look at art that I don'tunderstand or I can't grasp.
I look at art that is eithermuch better than me or worse
than me, right, in my opinion,to get a grasp of all those
things.
And then I take it a stepfurther after I do that.

(11:31):
So, let's say, I see a piece ina museum or in a gallery and
I'm wondering how, what is?
What are the materials they'reusing, right?
So I'm looking, I'm reallylooking, and then I, you know,
I'm taking note of the materialsand things, that I'm going home
and I'm researching thosematerials.
I'm taking note of thematerials and things and I'm
going home and I'm researchingthose materials and I'm looking
at well, why is it?
Why did this, do this?
Why did this do this?
Oh well, shoot, I'm not goingto use lead.
It's like oh man, antony Tappis that piece?

(11:54):
Why does it look that?
Oh, he used lead.
Well, shoot, that's not a verysafe taking it a step further.
So that way, when I'm seeing,I'm starting to grasp reasons
why these things are happening.
Yeah, and even looking at art, Idon't like.
I do the same thing.
Okay, I don't like it.
Why do I not like it?

(12:14):
Then I think about it and Italked to myself about that
piece.
When I'm in front of it, whatdo I not like about it?
Okay, well, is there anythingin here I do like?
And then I go back and I lookup that artist and I research
that artist and sometimes, onceI read this artist's story and
why they're making art and howthey got where they are, things
may shift and I may start torespect that artist and then,

(12:36):
all of a sudden, in turn,respect the work.
Now, that does somethingcompletely new in me, I think,
as an artist, and I tell myartists all the time in my
program if you're doing thosethings, it's going to inform you
about your work way more thanyou've ever expected.
Cause all that thinking and allthat processing of these other

(12:56):
artists that you like, don'tlike, question, wonder why, how
they do?
Now you're taking all thatinformation in and when you're
in the studio working, thatinformation is being processed
because it exists now in yourhead and your subconscious and
your foreconscious.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
So it's, it's phenomenal advice for artists,
but it's, it's a phenomenallittle tidbit to give anyone
who's looking at art.
You know, I have a lot of just,you know friends who don't look
at much art or don't have muchcontext for what they might be
seeing when they when they comeby, yeah, and that's one of the
first things I always say is youknow, what do you like about it

(13:30):
?
What don't you like about it?
I mean, yeah, I'm standing here, I made it, but you're not
gonna hurt my feelings, it'sjust, it's just something we're
both looking at, but just,that's a really.
I shared that with with Ellawhen we were looking at a couple
of the shows while we werethere.
She would say I really likethis one, Awesome, what do you
like about it specifically?
Or, this one isn't really myfavorite, Okay, what don't you

(13:51):
like about it?
But just that simple follow-upquestion opens a door to a lot
of understanding and trainingour eye.
I think that's a good.
What you just shared a momentago is a really good segue into
section 30.
See as much as you can.
What you just shared a momentago is a really good segue into
section 30.
See as much as you can.
This is on page 63.
For those of you who arereading along which, again, this

(14:14):
is just us, you know, talkingabout a really good book.
Go get the book, and the autoversion is fantastic as well.
As we've mentioned before,Jerry reads it in his own words,
which is uh, is also justexcellent.
So go out and get it.
But, um, if you're readingalong with us at home, this is
on page 63.
Jerry writes artists see verydifferently.
They get up very close to awork.
They inspect every detail.
It's textures, it's materials,it's makeup.
They touch it.

(14:37):
There's a story I really wantto share, but I'm not going to.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
You won't be allowed back.
Remind me.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
That's exactly right.
Tell me offline, I sure Idefinitely will.
They touch it.
Look at its edges, peer at theobject from every angle.
You can always tell the artistsin museums.
They're the ones with theirfaces one inch from the surface
of a work, like a dog sniffinganother.
But it's so, but it's so, true.
And so ella is also, uh, gettinginto photography.

(15:02):
So she took her camera into thea couple of the shows that we
went to see, art art into themuseum, and and she, she sent me
all of her photos and she tooka lot of really cool like up
close shots.
In fact, when we do anotherWitten episode, we got a lot of
really nice detail shots.
We can we can credit Ella forthose.
But she, she took a bunch ofpictures of me looking at work

(15:25):
and as I was scrolling throughthem, you can maybe include this
in the in the YouTube version.
It's so many versions of mejust leaning in, you know, super
, super close, like you know,really, really, really getting
up in it.
But it just made me laugh andit made me when I read this
section I was like, yep, that'sthat's me, that's us.
You know, that's what we thinkabout it.

Speaker 1 (15:43):
This is the beauty of that, though, nathan, is that
you and I have both been justcompletely enthralled in notes
from the woodshed Jack Whitten'sjournals.
Right, like enthralled isalmost an understatement like
blown away and absolutely inlove with this man, this artist,

(16:04):
this creator.
And how can you not want tojust physically dive in and feel
every little moment of his work?
Because you've read about hisstruggle to create the things
that ended up in the museum,that ended up, you know, bought
by private collectors around theworld, et cetera, et cetera.
So here you are, reading abouteverything he's doing and
learning and discovering andfailing, and then discovering

(16:25):
and exploding, and then, all ofa sudden, you're right in front
of that work.
Like, for an artist, there isliterally nothing better in the
world to be in front of one ofyour hero's pieces.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
That's a fact.
Impulse control has never beena strength of mine.
Have been a strength of mine,but it's so.
It took every fiber of my beingto not just rub my hands and uh
and get, get real, get real upclose and personal and I mean
we're, we're art nerds.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
There's such a beauty in being an art nerd.
I mean there's nothing that Ilove more, and I mean that's one
.
One of my favorite things whenI'm in museums is to talk to the
attendants.
You're with the work every day.
You know, share something withme.
How is it, you know, and somelove to share, and some just
kind of look at me like okay,and they move on to the next

(17:16):
room because they don't want totalk.
But I'm, here so you don't touchthings.
That's yeah, that's what I know.
But, man, I want to know, youknow, and sometimes I've met
great artists who are in an MFAprogram or they're in art school
or they're, you know, lookingto do curatorial studies or
different things.
So then we really get intogreat conversations about the
work in the room.
But my other favorite thing iswhen I'm in a room of art, I

(17:36):
really know well, being that artnerd that wants to share with
whoever else is in the room anyeducational information that
they may or may not want toreceive.
And so I've been pretty I'vebeen known to walk up to hey,
would you like to learn somemore about this work?
Or hey, what do you see about?
And I want to know, why are youstanding in front of this piece
for the last 15 minutes?

(17:57):
What is it?
And sometimes people getexcited and they want to share
another times.
Maybe it's intrusive, I don'tknow, but I don't care.
I love art, I want to talkabout it.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
Shall we talk about it some more right now.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
Yes, perfect, skipping ahead a little bit here
to number 32, which is page 67.
And he's talking about artbeing a verb.
I love the last few sentenceswhere he says even on the most
basic level, art acts upon usall.
It sees you across the room andit says, hey, you come closer,

(18:30):
I could change your life.
I mean, as an artist, hearingthat like inside, I'm getting
chills, like thinking ofsomebody seeing my work from
across the room and being sodrawn to it to purchase that
work.
Right, right, and there was a Ididn't share this with you, I
forgot I was going to I think itwas Artnet put up a post this

(18:52):
morning.
That was a young curator sharingadvice from past failures
collectors, sorry, young artcollectors sharing advice from
past failures.
And one of the one of thecollectors said that they bought
a work of art that was hot andthey were told to buy because
the artist was hot and theypassed on one that was moving

(19:14):
them and they got home and putit in the house.
It did nothing, no emotion, no,nothing.

(19:37):
Never make that decision again,right, and you turn around and
you walk all the way across theentire hallway to the next room
because you saw it out of thecorner of your eye and then
you're just wowed by it, likethat's magic, that is
supernatural magic.
I love that.

Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yeah, it's something that when, especially when,
whatever non-art people that's adumb way of saying it, but
whatever people who aren'tlooking a lot of art, whatever
people that I just know fromlife who are just coming by to
see what I'm up to, that's oneof the things that, when they
ask what, what were you tryingto do with this, or what's the

(20:14):
work about in general, it's oneof the most like, I think,
whatever entry level or userfriendly ways of of you know,
extending that invitation topeople, which is just to say I'm
just trying to invite people in, I'm just trying to get you
person standing next to me whois looking at something that I
made to just be curious aboutwhat's going on here.

(20:35):
You know, what is this made of?
What, what, how, how does itmake me feel?
How do I, how do I receive that?
I mean, these are very basic,simple questions that anybody,
with or without any context, youknow, can certainly sit with
and enhance their experience ofwhatever they're looking at,
whether they like it or not.
All right, so Ty uh, section 33,learn the difference between

(20:57):
subject matter and content.
This is great.
We're going to skip to the verylast paragraph, which is on
page 70.
When you look at art, makesubject matter the first thing
you see and then stop seeing it.
Start seeing into the art.
Find what needs are beingexpressed or hidden there.
What else is behind thenarrative?
A work of art is a rich estuaryof material, personal, public

(21:21):
and aesthetic ideas.
Let its water pass through itsbanks to reach you.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
That's a pretty poetic little paragraph.
That's a very deep, jerry,right there.
Oh yeah, this is a greatparagraph because this is how I
work on my art.
So here he's talking about theviewer, right, he's talking
about the person coming and look.
But when I make, like today,when I was working on a small

(21:51):
work and I was sewing my ass off, uh, and I was the subject
matters there, and then I wastrying not to see it because I
wanted to start doing somethings below the surface that
maybe could push forward intothe viewer's eye, things that
are hidden, that I want toexpress in more emotive things,

(22:15):
right, in an abstract way, andso I want the viewer to go.
What else is behind thatnarrative?
Just like you said, why arethese three little seams sewn
here?
Why are these?
Why is this these?
Why are these fibers wrapped upin around each other rather
than just going straight across?
Yeah Right, there's purpose ineach little thing that I'm doing

(22:37):
and applying it.
There is an estuary of allthese different things of family
, of memory, of future, lookingahead at things, as I'm talking
about loss and living and newbeginnings.
So I have all these littlemoments wrapped up in there.
It really is things divingbelow the surface, hoping that

(22:57):
the waters do pass through andreach somebody that's looking at
it.
It's a great paragraph for anartist to really dive into.

Speaker 2 (23:07):
And I'll just be real vulnerable here and admit that
this is much more challengingfor me with representational
work than it is with abstractwork, because I have the
sometimes knee-jerk tendency tobe like oh, that's a still life,
that's a portrait, that's alandscape, sure, no, no, no.
What Jerry's saying here is getpast the subject, right, let

(23:27):
yourself, let yourself, you know, go deeper.
If we're really going to letits water pass through its banks
and reach us, we need to getbeyond simply oh, that's, that's
that, let's move on.
No, no, no, there's way morethere to really absorb.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
Absolutely, when I think part of that for the
artist is being inconsistent.
I love that If you'recompletely consistent and we're
going to talk about.
He says I'm going to read quitea bit on this little section
here, cause I think this is justreally really meaty.
Variety, flexibility,experimentation, diversity,
they're all essential, all thosethings.

(24:04):
They're all essential, allthose things.
This doesn't mean that everynew thing you make should be
completely different from whatyou've done before.
That's a sign you're scared,lazy or some kind of
performative blowhard.
But moments when somethingappears in your work gives you
an opening.
I mean, I am always searchingfor we talk about this in the

(24:29):
podcast, I think every episode,maybe searching for that
discovery, right, that littleopening, and then something
appears in your work that givesyou that some mutation and
oddity.
Maybe it's a mistake, maybe youaccidentally spilled or you got
a little smudge there, but itbecomes something.
Variability allows your work tobreathe.
It helps you steer clear oftyrannies and find charm in the
unfamiliar.
Now artists, listen to breathe.

(24:49):
It helps you steer clear oftyrannies and find charm in the
unfamiliar.
Now artists, listen to this.
I want you to really putheadphones on and listen to what
I say here.
Try whatever you want to try.
Different sizes, differenttools, materials, subjects,
anything.
You are not making a product.
Don't resist something Ifyou're afraid it's taking you

(25:11):
really far away from your usualdirection.
That's the wild animal in youfeeding.
This is how you evolve, the wayyou keep from being caged.
I can't tell you, nathan, howmany artists have said, well, I
shouldn't probably use thatbecause that's not an art
material.
Don't I have to paint with oil,don't I have to do X, y, z in
order to get in a gallery, or nouse whatever you want.

(25:34):
Where, where is the animalleading you?
Go, don't let anything hold youback, go.
I mean, this is from thePulitzer prize winning art
critic, jerry salts try whateveryou want permission, salt.
Try whatever you wantPermission.

Speaker 2 (25:50):
I want to tell a story from your mentorship
program, this quote, this one inparticular.
I still have it written on ajust scrawled on a piece of
cardboard that I taped to thewall at the time and I keep it
up for this very reason at thetime and I and I keep it up for
this very reason.

(26:10):
This is the.
This was a core, like ahamoment for me when we went
through this in the program, andsomething that was critical,
like absolutely essential in me,really like getting that and
this is what I'd written that.
You already read it, but I'mgoing to reread it because I
think it's important Don'tresist something If you're
afraid it's taking you farafield from your usual direction
.
That's the wild animal in youfeeding.

(26:32):
That's what I have written downand that's what I have.
It just connected with me atlike a soul level in a way that
really helped me realize like,oh yeah, this is it.
I mean what are we after If notthat?
I mean what are we after if notthat?
I mean, as artists, like, whatare we after if not that feeling
of being wild and free andferal?

(26:55):
You know what I mean, not thisdomesticated, you know version
of what we think we're supposedto be or how we're supposed to
behave, based on theexpectations of others, but when
a wild animal is hungry, itfinds a way to feed In fact that
is most wild animals' primaryfunction every day.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
And it doesn't matter how far it needs to go to find
the food.
It will do whatever it takes.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
So if we think about a predator, we think about
something like a wolf, whoserange is huge, right, other
predators, like you know.
Whatever, this is not awildlife podcast, but you know,
any apex predator will beanother example.
A polar bear, a polar bear,what am I trying to think of?

Speaker 1 (27:44):
I don't know I'm just going to start throwing out.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
Whatever, thank you.
Yeah, thanks for trying to help, um, but they've got a huge
range In other words, they covera lot of area to find something
to feed on.
They're not particular about.
Oh no, this is my little areaand this is my little spot, and
if something comes by, I guessI'll eat today.
No, no, no, it's, I'm eatingtoday and I will go wherever I
have to to find a meal.
And that's, I think, the mindsetthat is that is really

(28:07):
important, certainly one thathelped me evolve and push the
work forward.
I actually remember making a,making a little video where I,
where I held this quote up.
You may remember the tripletthat I was working on at the
time, but that was somethingwhere I started to use I was
still working on canvas, it wasstill paint on canvas during
that period, but I started touse different materials

(28:33):
cardboard, other things likethat and and that was, you know,
only one of those three isanything that I would have see
the light of day, you know, atthis point.
But that's not the point.
The point is that's what led meto um, a meal that day, and
certainly more, more meals, youknow, going forward.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
Well, and I want to be inconsistent.
You know, going forward, well,I want to be inconsistent.
Yeah, I want to be consistentlymaking work.
I want to be consistentlymaking strong work, but I don't
want the work to be just thisconsistent line of the same
thing for my whole life.
I was showing my last mentorshipgroup we were talking about

(29:06):
this and I showed, uh, I did alittle graphic of work from 2010
to today and it was one to twopieces from 2010 all the way to
today, and it showed howinconsistent my work has changed
and developed and grown andgone completely off map to new

(29:26):
ideas and then back to otherlittle ideas.
And so I want, I want my workto do that, because I think
that's how I'm going to keepdiscovering these new things
within it.
And I also know that all ofyour work you make is not going
to be consistently strong.
Every artist in history hastaught me that.
Every artist I've read, studied, looked at their bits and

(29:47):
pieces throughout their timelinewhere they made really strong
work, and then there's a bunchof stuff in between.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah, we probably don't need to continue beating
this horse, but I'm going to.
I just that last line.
The way you keep from beingcaged.
Yeah, I'm just thinking aboutthis, about this, this predator
metaphor, but I mean there are afew things more depressing than
visiting a zoo and seeingespecially animals that are not

(30:16):
meant to, which is, most of them, be caged.
I mean, there's stillmagnificent creatures to witness
and see up close, but you cantell if you've ever seen, you
know, photo or video of thatsame species in the wild.
It's not the same.
So the more we can keepourselves from becoming

(30:37):
domesticated, from becomingcaged, the less dependent we'll
be on the slot opening up andthen throwing out today's
version of rule.
To eat, that's a primalinstinct that those animals have
to not just eat whatever meator eat their food, but to
acquire it, to catch it, to killit.

(30:59):
That's all part of it.
All part of it.
Yeah, ty, skipping ahead tosection 37.
Every choice you make, yourmediums, processes, colors,
shapes and images should servenot nostalgia but your visceral
present.
You are an artist of modernlife.
That personal specific urgencyis what fuels every successful

(31:23):
work of art.
Personal specific urgency.
When I stare at you like this.
This means Keep staring at me.

Speaker 1 (31:32):
I'm trying to think of what to say.
All right, you know, this is areally difficult conversation
and I've had this conversationwith a lot of friends who are
highly more academic than me,who have PhDs in art history and
curatorial PhDs and things, andso these are some conversations

(31:53):
that we have a lot becausewe're contemporary, we're making
art today, which means we'realive in today's culture.
That's living, not dead culture, but culture that's currently,
right now, this moment iscontemporary.
So confusion a lot of peoplehave with saying contemporary
art when they're trying to saymodern art or you know, um,
contemporaries today.

(32:13):
And so really what Jerry'ssaying is you're making art
today, so your art needs toreflect today.
And so I had this conversationwith a friend of mine that said
a lot of your work is very it'sabstract expressionist, but
abstract expressionism is dead.
How do you feel about that?
And I was like it was like astake to the heart kind of thing
, you know, because that is mymovement, that I love more than

(32:35):
anything, that I am an academicin and study fervently.
But I get what he's saying too,but do I think it's dead?
Well, I think what happenedthen is dead, like those moments
, new moments today.
The reason they were makingabstract expressionist art was
for a specific purpose, for thatmoment in that time.

(32:58):
Now that doesn't mean thatcertain elements and style and
representation from that doesn'tcarry over to today doesn't
carry over to today, and I'malways battling that when I
paint and do things and tryingto find new elements that I can
add that maybe haven't been donebefore with abstract
expressionism.
So maybe it's a little moreexpressionism with some

(33:20):
philosophical elements or things.
My same friend had said in apodcast that we did together
years ago and he said I thinkyou're more to me of a
philosopher, poet.
Expressionist is how I woulddefine you as an artist.
So it's expressionism, but witha deep philosophical and poetic
element to it which would bedifferent than those first few

(33:41):
waves, because I do have textsand I do have some context and
things.
But that's a hard conversationbecause you're looking at trying
to create something that is oftoday and new, but you're still
bringing in those elements andthose ideas from things that you
love, and all art has done that.
But all art also continues toarrive in something new today,

(34:03):
something different than whatwas before.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
So what I'm not answering.

Speaker 1 (34:08):
I'm just creating conversation for everybody to
think about.

Speaker 2 (34:12):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I guess what I'm, whatI'm, what I'm hearing, uh, in in
very simplistic terms, which isthe best I can do.
You know, most days is that it.
What you're making is alive,because you are alive today and
you are making it, Yep, yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
Moving on to step four, entering the art world
world A guide to the snake pityeah that it is, and I love that
he has on that first imagethere next to it, a photo of
Alice Neal in her studio next toa wonderful painting of her.

(34:51):
She's one of my favoriteartists.
Anytime I bump into an AliceNeal in a museum, I freak out
and have.
Courage is the very first part,and that I mean honestly.
Is there anything else you needgoing into the art world than
courage?
I mean you need a lot of otherthings, but you really do need
courage first.

Speaker 2 (35:11):
I also love.
I'm just thinking sorry, I wasjust that Alice Neofoto took me
back to a couple years ago.
I got to see a phenomenal showof hers at the Orange County
Museum of Art and that was thefirst time I had seen.
You know, I don't even know 20,30 of her phenomenal works
together, so that's just wheremy head's at now.
I gotta I gotta get back ontrack, cause I'm also massive

(35:32):
Alice Neal fan.
That would be a great episodefor the future as well.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
That would be well, and he says here, talking about
courage, think of what it tookfor an artist like Alice to
pursue her rough hewn portraitsup in her Harlem apartment when
no one else was doing anythinglike them.
Or for Alex Katz to make hisbig, flat figure of paintings in
the fifties in the face of thejuggernaut of abstraction, for

(35:57):
Twombly to deploy erraticscrawls as the carrier froze art
.
What belief they showed,allowing their art to follow its
own intuitive logic.
Courage is a desperate gamblethat will place you in the arms
of the creative angels.
You know, I've been readingabout Ellsworth Kelly, robert,
indiana, a number of the slipartists from the from the

(36:18):
fifties and sixties and thoseare two artists as well that
that in that same thing.
Here they are in the ABEXmovement and they're trying to
create things that are not abex.
Yeah, so that battle of nobodyelse is doing anything like
ellsworth kelly was doing atthat time and he's trying so
hard to get it into galleriesand get it going, but he had the

(36:38):
courage to stay with it comeback to that.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
Can you hear my phone ?
Can we turn our?

Speaker 1 (36:47):
phones off out there people, please Silence Put your
phones on silence it's just acomputer.
I mean, I respect the EllsworthKellys of the world.
During that time they had anuphill battle where he was the
only person doing a specificthing and everybody else is
doing abstract expressionism.
So every gallery, every museum,especially on the East Coast,

(37:07):
they want abstract expressionismwork.
Right, and he had left Paris toNew York because New York's
where everything's happening.
Paris isn't happening as muchas it was before and he and his
friends had been moving back toNew York from Paris.
But he's doing something thatnobody's doing with his
minimalist shapes and hisobjects and those things in a
place when everybody's goingnuts on the canvas.
Right, but he stuck with it.

(37:30):
It would have been really easyfor him because he was talented
enough to go.
You know what?
This is too hard.
I'm just going to do whateverybody else is doing.
But he didn't do that.
He just stayed with his vision.
He stayed with where he reallysaw his work going.
And what do you have?
He has his own museum in Austin, Texas, connected to the
Blanton, which I've been in.

(37:50):
It's fabulous.
He's got works in museums allover the world.
I mean, one of the greatestartists in history, and that's
literally it.
He had so much courage and hehad incredible people.
Agnes Martin was a mother-likefigure to him.
They had breakfast every dayfor a whole year together in the
slip, and he was able to askher questions and get her, you

(38:12):
know, having her continue tobuild confidence in him at an
age when he needed that artistwho was known and recognized,
speaking into his work and lifeRight.
But he needed someone else tohelp that courage and that
confidence.

Speaker 2 (38:26):
I just want to revisit that last line.
Yeah, do it.
Courage is a desperate gamblethat will place you in the arms
of the creative angels.
So, to break that down, we'retalking about a huge risk with
massive reward on the other side.
Yeah, desperate gamble?
Ooh, that's all I'm looking at.
I'm going to say, probably, no,thank you.

(38:47):
Well, wait, hold on.
What's on the other side ofthat gamble?
What do I stand to win withthis gamble being placed in the
arms of the creative angels?
Okay, well, that that reward isworth the risk.
You know what I'm saying.
Like you know, risk is just somesome risk doesn't make any
sense whatsoever.
Some leaps don't have anythingon the other side of them and

(39:08):
are really, you know, risk isjust some.
Some risk doesn't make anysense whatsoever.
Some leaps don't have anythingon the other side of them and
are really, you know, silly andfoolish decisions.
But when we think about what'son the other side of having
courage, it's absolutely worththat leap of faith.
It's absolutely worth takingthat gamble because, even when
we don't know what's on theother side, we know it's

(39:31):
something.
And because we take the leap,then, and only then, do we have
the opportunity, do we have thechance of resting in the arms of
the creative angels and beingtaken somewhere other than where
we started.

Speaker 1 (39:46):
Well, and you're ready for this?
Here's the definition ofcourage, because we haven't even
gotten to that yet.
He doesn't talk about it.
He just says have courage, theability to do something that
frightens one and alsostrengthen the face of pain or
grief, or grief.
So, when you're an artist,having courage is a difficult

(40:13):
thing.
Are you willing to suffer, areyou willing to sacrifice?
Are you willing to live throughpain and grief, doing something
that completely scares theabsolute hell out of you to get
to where you want to go?
That's art.
That is art Like.
That should be the definitionof art courage.

(40:34):
Because, look, I'm doingeverything I can in the face of
courage right now, with thismassive, just shift in ideas
within my work.
Yep, and I've left you voicemessages.
We've talked on the phoneregularly and you know I've been
pretty open with I'm reallyhaving fun, but I have no
freaking idea where I'm goingyet.
I don't.
I think I do, I think I do, butI don't.

(40:57):
And it's taken me all thesedifferent places.
I've been putting littlesnippets up on Instagram, but
not showing full work yet oranything, not for a while.
I have not pitched it to mydealers, I haven't shown it to
any galleries.
I'm taking Jack Whitten'sadvice and I'm basically closing
my doors and just focusing onthe work.

(41:17):
That's it, because I knowwhat's on the other side,
because history has told mewhat's on the other side for the
artists that do take that timeand that do really buckle down
and embrace where they thinkit's going and follow through
with it.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
So you know broadly what's on the other side Broadly
.

Speaker 1 (41:39):
Yeah, I don't know exactly.
You can't, you can't.
That's where the fear comesfrom.
Yeah, that's subset C in thedefinition of art.
You have no idea what's goingto happen and you won't.
That's right.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
Yeah, moving on to the next section, 40, don't
define yourself by a singlemedium.
Love this.
Don't limit your potential bypresenting yourself as just one
kind of maker a potter,printmaker, watercolorist,
macrameist, landscape painter,stone carver, steel sculptor,
paper maker, glassblower, sketchartist, etcher, graffiti.
You get the idea You're anartist Skipping ahead.

(42:15):
I once heard Robert Rauschenbergdescribe his combine
assemblages as not painting orsculpture, but poetry.
That's you a material poet.
Oh, I love that.
This times out perfectlybecause you know one of the
other big um, just incrediblyimpactful.
One of the other shows that wewent to out of New York was
Rashid Johnson's help home fordeep thinkers, and it's perfect

(42:39):
because we're talking aboutpoetry and that's the title of
the show.
But a perfect, you know,contemporary example of somebody
who's using a perfect, you knowcontemporary example of
somebody who's using photo, uh,painting, video, installation,
found objects, sculpture, youname it.
Probably a number of things I'mforgetting, but it's all we're
going to do.
A Rashid episode as well, oh,yeah, coming up, coming up here,

(43:00):
but it's all on the table, youknow it's.
He is certainly not defined byany single medium or even a
short, it's a long list ofmediums that he's using.
You know, indiscriminately tome that's not the right word,
but you know freely tocommunicate his message and that
was such a beautiful, justrecent example for me of you
know what it looks like to workthrough some of these different

(43:22):
concepts and ideas, through verydifferent mediums which
holistically, when viewedtogether especially, tells a
much more, you know, completeand engaging story than just
want to meet him alone,absolutely, I am in 100%
agreement with that and I'm amassive Rashid Johnson fan.

Speaker 1 (43:43):
I've followed him for a very, very, very long time.
I do want to talk a littleabout the next section, even
though I don't think we need toget into it really deep, but I
just want to let everybody knowyou don't need grad school.
Can grad school help?
Absolutely, but I think gradschool is expensive.

(44:08):
Artists don't make good money.
They can make money to survive,but the amount of artists who
are very wealthy and make a lotof money is a very, very tiny,
minuscule part of the history ofartists.
So, can grad school help you?
Sure, absolutely, but if you donot have the right mentality
going into grad school, it willnot help you.
Yeah, the artists who go intograd school and buckle down and

(44:29):
do everything they can to get toknow their professors, to
network when they're there, togo out and see a ton of shows,
that just really, really dive inand do above and beyond what
everybody else is doing, thingstend to happen for them more
than the artists who are justshowing up.
I mean, when you say it, itmakes sense, but you'd be
surprised at how many artistsare in grad school and they're

(44:49):
just showing up.
They're not taking the time totruly invest in their professors
, to truly invest in theircritique and networks there, to
truly invest in what's going onoutside of grad school, in the
city they may be in.
And so you have a largepopulation of artists with MFAs

(45:10):
who don't have anything goingfor them, and they're in the
same boat as artists that do nothave MFAs.
Those artists just have a lotless debt.
So grad school could be a greatidea for you, may not be a
great idea for you, but youdon't need it to be successful
as an artist.
I love this next section be avampire form, a coven and an

(45:33):
incredible photo of Jean-MichelBasquiat and Francisco Clemente,
two of my favorite artists atKeith Haring's pop shop.
And they were part of a covenof a number of neo-expressionist
artists at that time in NewYork City who were all hanging
out as a crew, making art,playing music, hanging out,

(45:53):
going to museums, bothering AndyWarhol, doing everything they
could to get somewhere together.
And he says artists mustcommune with their own kind in
order to survive.
Even if you live in a smalltown like me, or out in the
woods, do everything you can tobond with other artists.
These are the people you willstay up late with.
Learn from comfort, fight withand love.

(46:14):
They're the people who give youthe late with.
Learn from comfort, fight withand love.
They're the people who give youthe strength to keep working
through the pain.
This is how you will change theworld and your art.
I know how difficult this isbecause I hear it from artists
all the time I have no artfriends.
How do I find them?
What's a good place?

(46:34):
Way to start?
How can I do that?
I'm very fortunate.
I have a lot of artists friendsall over the world, from before
Instagram, from before socialmedia to today.
Social media has made that evenmore incredible, and so, for
those artists that have not hadthat opportunity, you better

(46:55):
start going to some shows.
You better start going toplaces where artists are, and I
think it was in Jeff Goines'book Real Artists, don't Starve,
and he says if you're in a townwhere there isn't anything, be
the one that starts it.
Yeah, if you're in a town wherethere isn't a lot of art going
on, there are artists.
I can guarantee it, there areartists.

(47:16):
Be the first person to startsomething.
Yeah, start a little meetup.
Started at a coffee shop,started at a pub or wherever you
want.
Hey, artists meeting up here,you're going to meet somebody.
You need them.
I mean, how important is it?
We have crews.
You and I both have similarcrews.
We have crews outside thatwe've formed, you know, outside
of different things so, but youknow how important it is, nathan

(47:39):
.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
Yeah, I mean, it's critical.
I mean, and to your point,there's never been a better time
to begin and maintain some ofthose relationships and
connections.
You know, virtually there is nosubstitute for IRL, right,
actually sharing space withsomebody you know.

(48:00):
But a lot of you knowrelationships and connections
can certainly be started and and, like I said, maintained and
development continued over time,just by being aware of what
other people are doing.
You know, I had a really funexperience, um, you know, last
week when we were out in NewYork, I got a chance to visit
two of my artist friends that Ihad spent this is from the
Clubhouse days I was trying tofigure out with one of them, I

(48:22):
spent some time with Vero Perez,who's a phenomenal filmmaker
and photographer, another friendof mine, bradley Hart and
visiting their studio, seeingtheir space, seeing Vero's
vintage cameras, visitingBradley's studio and seeing his
very unique and incredible, youknow, process and just spending
time.
But we were light years ahead ofwhere we would have been had I

(48:44):
just I don't know cold call orjust shown like we already had a
very real, you know, virtual,whatever friendship by by, by
extension of the time that wehad spent just in communication,
even though we were, whatever,half a country apart.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
Yeah, I mean, I think last week Gianna Tassone and I
one of my closest art friends,she's really my art little
sister, I think we were goingback and forth on Marco Polo,
just talking about things comingup and what she's got going on.
On Marco Polo just talkingabout things coming up and what
she's got going on, and then shehad me write a reference letter
for a university in London, fora grad program, and so we were

(49:22):
going and talking about that.
But just having being able tohave those people in your life
that are go-tos for, hey, I'vegot this going.
What?
What do you think?
Hey, would you write areference for me?
Because sometimes they want aprofessional and a personal
reference.
Yeah, right, so you, you'regoing to need other artists to
write references for you If youwant to get into certain shows
or certain, get a grant or do aresidency or things that are

(49:44):
requiring those things, and so,but just being able to send you
a voice message, an audiomessage, and go, hey, I was
doing this today, I'm sendingyou three pictures.
Let me get your feedback Right,cause we've talked about before,
don't worry about whateverybody says about your work.
Worry about what the rightpeople say about your work.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
Yeah, yeah, that was from part one, or?

Speaker 1 (50:07):
part three yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
So Jerry talks about this and we did a little section
on that, but it's superimportant because there has to
be a level of of of trust there,trust that you're asking for
feedback from someone who has anidea about what the hell you're
trying to do, who has seenenough of your work to have
context for whatever you mightbe doing in front of them,
somebody who understands you andyour personality well enough to

(50:31):
know how to deliver thatfeedback in a way that's going
to be, you know, received.
I mean, the better you knowsomebody, the more direct,
probably, and and, uh, you know,straightforward you can be.
But even as well as you and Iknow each other, I don't think
we've ever gone so far as belike, uh, that actually sucks,
you should probably just call ita day.
I mean, you've got to be, youknow, uh, intentional in the way

(50:54):
that you communicate thatfeedback and the way that you
ask for it.
You know, I think that you knowpart of it, too, is really comes
from, you know, knowing whatyou want to get in terms of
feedback.
Right, it's like, hey, here'ssomething, what do you think?
Well, okay, I mean example withyou and I, as I'm working on
this new body of work, ofsculpture, a lot of it is.

(51:21):
Hey, what do you think aboutthis?
What did these copper elements?
You know, how do you?
What are your thoughts on howthey're, they're interacting
with the?
You know transparent, you knowresin as a sculptural, you know
component, whatever it is right,but it's it's being specific
about like, hey, here's exactlywhat it is that I'm really
whatever wrestling with,thinking about looking for
feedback on the more intentionalwe are with our request, the

(51:45):
more specific the feedback isgoing to be, which I think is
really important.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
Absolutely and always remember, like page 43, except
that you'll likely be poor.
Like page 43, accept thatyou'll likely be poor.
Remember that 1% of 1%, of 1%of all artists get rich from
their artwork.
You may feel overlooked,under-recognized and underpaid.

(52:10):
There's no getting around itbeing poor is hard.
Among the artists I've met,though, those who maintain a
network of support, all live alife that keeps the mind nimble
and young, the spirit alive,their art growing and enriching
themselves and others who arefortunate enough to see it
Meaning.
They understand this andthey're happy with the sacrifice
they've made to do what theylove and what they do.
We all struggle.

(52:31):
We all struggle.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
Well, and that's a really good.
I mean, it's almost as thoughthe next section was meant to
follow the one that preceded it.
But for defined success, I'mgoing to just jump ahead.
You want the truth.
The best definition of successis time, the time to do your
work.
You know, and he talks a lotabout in this section, about I'm
just going to kind ofparaphrase here, but actually
I'll just read it but if youmarried a rich person and had

(53:01):
lots of money, would you besatisfied with just the money,
no recognition, no community, nolasting work?
Would you be satisfied if youowned a fast food chain?
Subway sells a lot of hoagies,but that doesn't make them
heroes.
So the financial component ofall this is really important.
He talks about the importance ofdefining success.
He offers a definition ofsuccess that I agree with in

(53:21):
part.
Um, I would I would extend thisto say you know, if we don't
define success for ourselves,then we will be subject to the
definitions of others, like thisis a you thing.
It's up to you, ty, it's up tome to determine what our
personal definition of successis with our work and with our

(53:45):
artistic practice.
And if we don't do that, we'regoing to be buffeted about by
the winds of life, by the trendsand the opinions and positions
of others, and that's notsomething that I'm interested in
.
That's something that I don'tthink anybody would necessarily
sign up for voluntarily.

(54:05):
This is something that it'sreally up to us to determine
honestly and objectively.
And, of course, listen, we gotto eat.
Shelter is pretty important.
We all have financial needs,but Jerry goes on to write about
the benefits of again by hisdefinition, success being more
time to make our work.

(54:26):
A three-day-a-week job meansfour days off, four days to make
your own art.
See, you've achieved the firstmeasure of success time.
Now get to work, or give upyour dreams and muster out.
There's the door.
Now there's something reallyimportant there.
That is probably pretty obvious, but I'm going to highlight it
anyway.

(54:46):
You're on, you only have thosetwo days on the weekend, or you
know whatever vacation time, oryour, you know, or your evenings
, whatever time that we have to,you know, be engaged in our
artistic practice.
We're assuming here, okay, solet's just unpack this.

(55:06):
A three day a week job meansfour days off, four days to make
your own art, okay.
So what it doesn't mean is oneday to maybe make your art and
three days to do whatever, right?
So if you're serious about this, it means that for all of us,

(55:26):
we need to proactivelyprioritize our time and make
sure that our actions actuallymatch our goals.
Yeah, if my goal is to be aboutthis life, then it's really
important that I am intentionalabout honoring my other
priorities outside of art andthen making sure that everything

(55:51):
that isn't required of me inthose areas gets poured into art
, and I'm not saying you knowlive, you know a monastic life
that only involves you know art,but it could be that for
periods of time, you know.
Certainly it absolutely meanstaking a scalpel to our schedule
and being honest with ourselvesabout what we are doing with

(56:13):
the time that we do haveavailable, however much that
might be about what we are doingwith the time that we do have
available, however much thatmight be.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
Yeah, I think that's something that I wish I would
have learned a little bitearlier.
Um, because I think I wouldhave been a little bit further
along with my work.
Right, because, coming out ofart school trying to figure out
life, you know, and doing things, I still made work, but I did a
whole lot of other stuff thatwas just wasteful, you know,
just wasteful living.
Um, that wasn't taking me inany direction.

(56:43):
You know time wasting watchingtoo many movies, things like
that.
That I should have been makingart in those moments for the
young artists out therelistening.
Think about that.
Think about that, because I'mnot saying give up on your
friends.
I'm not saying give it up, giveup on skating or doing things

(57:04):
that you love to do as a hobbyor being outside and doing
certain things.
A lot of my time back in the daywas spent skating, skating
pools and ditches and thingslike that, and but it was with
the crew and people that I love.
So there was great relationshipbuilding and human bonding.
That was just fantastic inthose moments.
I'm not saying give thosethings up, but maybe
reprioritize how time is spentso that in 15, 20 years your

(57:31):
work is further along than itwould be if you didn't
reprioritize those things andyou slowly made art and then all
of a sudden, when you had thetime to make it, you're making
up for lost time.
That's how I feel.
I feel like I'm making up forlost time now and I think if
some of these things were putinto place earlier, then I might

(57:51):
be a little further along,because I know what time does.
Now I understand what timespent making work does Right.

Speaker 2 (57:59):
Okay.
So section 45, art and therapy.
So Jerry writes we are alldamaged, some more than others,
some traumatically, and he goeson to share some some real shit,
that that he's been through inhis life.
He ends those examples bysaying I don't think of this as
trauma, it's just my life, it'sa miracle Any of us makes it

(58:20):
through.
What about therapy?
Therapy can be great forartists.
So can Tai Chi, tarot, fashion,sports walks, god massages,
dancing and so on.
Whatever your personal story.
Find a practice that eases yourmind, gives you perspective and
allows you to work.
These are spirit guides inother guises.
If you work very hard and tryto be very honest with yourself,

(58:42):
your art might tell you almosteverything you need to know
about yourself.
I'm going to, I'm going to gogo here with this and you tell
me if you agree.
I think it's important that hetitles a section art and therapy
as opposed to art as therapy.
So art can absolutely betherapeutic, but I'll just speak

(59:04):
in the first person.
I believe that you know my ownforms of therapy have definitely
put me further down the pathtowards, you know, real honesty
in my work and because I've donesome actual therapy and other
varieties, you know of that thatthat have done elsewhere, I'm
further along in understandingthose things and able to

(59:27):
communicate it better, moreefficiently, properly, more
effectively.
I don't know what the right wayof putting it is, but I think
just being further down the path, you know.
So, not necessarily.
And look, there's nothing wrongwith using art as therapy.
There's an entire space forthat.
That's, I think, tremendouslyvaluable.
But you know, thinking back toour, you know I think our Louise

(59:50):
episode was the one where wekind of did our own little
version of trauma dumping andsharing.
You know our, where we kind ofdid our own little version of
trauma dumping and sharing.
You know our own personalbackstory and how that affects
our work today.
I think that you know, justgoing back to what Jerry said,
if you work very hard and try tobe very honest with yourself,
your art might tell you almosteverything you need to know
about yourself.
I realized something I don'tremember exactly when, it was

(01:00:12):
but a couple of years in that,you know, art introduced me to
myself in a way that nothingelse could.
And having started this wholething, um, you know, somewhat
later in life, you know as I was, you know whatever approaching,
anyway, you know, middle agewhen I when I really, you know
committed to art full time.
It was an interesting, I guess,process for me, just to get to

(01:00:35):
a point where it was like, oh,I've already.
I get my point sharing, that is, I had already done a lot of
the work, I'd already processeda lot of those things, but there
was something magical about artand everybody knows what I mean
when I say this that allowed meto really understand and be
able to communicate some ofthose things, if only to myself,

(01:00:56):
in ways that are naturallygoing to express themselves in
the work as well.
I agree with you fully.

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
Thanks, coach.
Yep, I have nothing to add onit other than it's.
You know it's soul care yeah,make sure you have, and we talk
about this a lot because it'ssomething that's important to
both of us.
We both know how healthy thatis for the artist to have soul
care moments outside of thestudio.
So just make sure you'reembracing those other things
outside of the studio forhealing and for centering in

(01:01:25):
yourself rather than trying tofind it in your art.
And, importantly, I think thisnext section is one of the most
this is the second mostimportant part, I think, of this
book.
So all of the things aboutbeing an artist and who you are
as an artist and how to be like.
I think this is so importantand he talks about it.
Only takes a few people to makeyour career and he says dealers

(01:01:48):
you only need one.
You need somebody who believesin you and supports you.
Collectors you only need ahandful five or six who will buy
your work from time to timeover the years.
Critics well, it'd be nice tohave some who seem to get what
you're doing, but he goes down.
Curators it'd be nice to have afew of your generation or older
who can put you in good showsfrom time to time and he says

(01:02:09):
that's it.
12 people maybe.
Surely your crappy art can fakeout 12 stupid people.
So, jerry, right there.
But here's the thing, here'sthe one condition.
Okay, everybody, let's putthose radars on those antennas
and start really listening.
Again, you have to put yourselfout there, artists.
You have to get out there.
It will not happen if you'renot putting yourself out there.

(01:02:32):
No matter how hard it is and Iknow for some of you out there,
this is one of the hardestthings, because you're extremely
introverted.
You don't want to go, start newconversations with people
you've never seen before.
That's really difficult forsome of you, but you have to
show up.
You have to go to everything.
Go to openings, just if you'regoing to stand around and feel

(01:02:52):
inadequate.
Talk to the other wallflowersand he says the secret is, 80%
of us are doing that same thing.
We're all scared.
We're all standing against thewall.
I don't want to talk to anybody, but most galleries, curators,
collectors and critics learnabout artists through other
artists.
Yeah, they learn about you fromyour friends, from your network

(01:03:28):
.
Pay attention to what thegalleries are showing.
Yeah, work when you're gettingstarted either.
That only makes it harder foranyone to take a chance on you.
Jeff Koons prices early works atless than the fabrication costs
.
He was eating costs to sellwork.
So some people are betterconnected than others.
They get to 12 supportersfaster, but the art world is

(01:03:52):
full of these privileged people.
It is unfair and unjust.
It's still a problem for womenartists and artists of color
especially, not to mentionartists over 40.
The road is rougher for theseartists and it needs to be
changed by all of us.
Things are rapidly changing.
The art world is changing.
It is an ever evolving and I'mglad that it's an ever changing

(01:04:13):
and allowing artists to have apresence who should have had a
presence 40, 50, 60, 70 yearsago.
It's sad that it's taken solong for some of these artists
to catch up.
Jack Whitten should have had 50retrospectives at the MoMA by
now.
Get out there, you guys.
Ladies, gentlemen, go to shows,go meet people, be bold,

(01:04:37):
because you're going to have tobe bold with your work.
You're going to have to be boldwith your work to get it out
there.
So go be bold as the artist aswell.
It's a combination.
You got to be bold, get outthere and meet people say hi, if
you're going to pitch a gallery, they're not just going to take
a cold email and put you intheir space.
You're going to end up havingto have a studio visit or doing

(01:05:00):
a zoom and talking.
So if you're not practiced,you're going to blow it.
Get out and meet people so youcan start learning how to handle
your nerves and swallow thatintrovertedness, so that when
the opportunity comes, you canreally pitch yourself and your
work with confidence.

Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
I will speak to this as the resident introvert of the
two of us.
I think it's really one wordthere that jumps off the page to
me is connected.
Some people are betterconnected.
Let's talk about the wordconnection.
I mean, I think that all ofthose you know 12 people.

(01:05:44):
There's a version of connection,human to human, and that all
begins with the condition thatJerry's very clear about, which
is you have to put yourself outthere, and I would just offer
that putting yourself out therecan come in many different forms
.
You know, showing up togalleries and shows is certainly
one of them, but it'sdefinitely not the only one.
There are a lot of ways to showup, get out of our comfort zone
and do things that maybe don'teven make sense or seem like a

(01:06:04):
good idea at the time.
But I guess what I would offeris you just never know who
you're going to meet, you neverknow who's going to.
You know, see what you're doing, feel a connection to it and
want to be a part of what you'vegot going on going forward as
any of the above, I went to afestival to make art and kind of

(01:06:25):
not really in front of a bunchof people.
There are a lot of other thingsgoing on.
It's not as though I had anaudience the entire time, but I
had never done any version ofthat.
This is going back, I guess, acouple, two, three years ago and
met some amazing people whohave just become, you know,
really really cool friends.
But I've had one collector inparticular who now owns six or

(01:06:46):
seven of my pieces, uh, wholives out in Philadelphia, and
that all started with me justshowing up, not really having a
plan.
I kind of had a plan, but notreally knowing what I was going
to do and what I was going to door what it was going to look
like.
And just by making thatconnection, by making that you
know friend and somebody whoreally, you know, just really
digs what I do and and wants to,wants to own a bunch of pieces

(01:07:06):
and have it, have it in hisworld, was just really, really
cool.
So we got to show up, we've gotto put ourselves out there in
kind of.
It's one of those things whereit's like just yes should be our
default answer to do you wantto do this or should I do this?
Because we just never knowwhat's going to come of it.
Maybe nothing, but maybesomething.
But it all starts with showingup.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
Yeah, jennifer Montalhón has become a dear
friend and an incredible patronand supporter of my work by
moving my work and selling itand really taking a serious
interest in the artist as wellas the art.
And I saw a number of friendswho she was showing.

(01:07:52):
This is, gosh, pre-covid yearsago, and I kept seeing friends
like working with her, and so Isent a message and said, hey, I
noticed a couple of my friendsare showing with you.
I love the work that you have.
If you're interested in addinganother artist, if you're ever
looking for another artist, I'dlove to.
I'd love to pitch.
And got a message withinprobably an hour that said, oh

(01:08:16):
my gosh, I'd love to talk.
Are you free to hop on thephone.
I was like, yes, let's talk now, right?
I didn't wait and say, well,I'll be ready next week.
And then we hopped on the phoneand we were on the phone for 30
minutes and ended up beginninga wonderful relationship.
But it also there are plenty oftimes when I've gone oh man, a
lot of my friends are showinghere doing this, you know, and
it's like, okay, maybe I'llreach out sometime, rather than,

(01:08:39):
you know, I'm going to reachout right now and just see what
happens.
I mean, what's the worst?
They can say no, right, you gottwo choices.

Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
They're going to say yes, let's talk, or no, it's
basically it.
So put yourself out there, andI just want to highlight the
numbers game aspect of that.
You're great at that.
I try to channel my inner tieand I'm getting better at doing
those types of things as well,but the success rate can be
atrocious.
It can be extremely low.

Speaker 1 (01:09:11):
It is and still be a win, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
So I mean, if you had to pull a number out of the air
, what percent of those, youknow?
Whatever cold or lukewarmtouches actually produce
something?

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
Maybe 1%, maybe that's probably less, probably
0.5%, to be honest.

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
I suspected you were going to say something along
those lines.
So the point being withoutthose other 99, you don't get
the one.

Speaker 1 (01:09:36):
Yes, if I'm not willing to try, I don't get the
one.
That is a large part of mypractice.
Yes, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:44):
Yep, all right, ty, I think it's a good place to land
the plane for today.
Thank you all for joining usfor part three.
If you're listening, know thatyou can see us talk if that
sounds interesting.
Ty does a great job of the editand puts a lot of interesting
B-roll as well of the artiststhat we talk about and some
different quotes as well.
So check us out there, andthat's it.

(01:10:06):
Join us next time.
Get the book, listen to thebook.
This is again.
This is just a couple of idiotstalking about a really
fantastic book that we've gottena lot out of.
So, unless you've got anythingelse, ty, thanks for joining us
and we'll see you next time forpart four, the final part of how
to Be an Artist by Mr JerrySaltz.

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
Yep, we'll see you guys later.
Have a great day.