Part 4. Breaking down: How to Be An Artist by Jerry Saltz.

What separates artists who give up from those who thrive despite rejection? In this fourth installment exploring Jerry Saltz's "How to Be an Artist," Ty and Nathan tackle the emotional armor required to navigate the art world's toughest challenges.

When a Pulitzer Prize-winning critic featured Nathan's early work as an example of what not to do, he was devastated. "I was mourning the loss of an art career that didn't even exist," he confesses. This vulnerable moment becomes a masterclass in transforming criticism into creative fuel—a skill every artist must develop.

The conversation weaves through the phases of artistic development: wanting it, doing it, and living it. They explore how Instagram has weaponized envy, why self-imposed deadlines create surprising breakthroughs, and the myth of overnight success that derails so many promising careers. "Art gives up its secrets very slowly," they remind us, encouraging patience and persistence.

Perhaps most powerful is their discussion of "radical vulnerability"—following your work into uncomfortable psychological territory that reveals your truest voice. As Ty shares stories of gallery disasters and damaged artwork, a portrait emerges of the resilience required to survive the inevitable setbacks of creative life.

The episode concludes with Jerry's most memorable advice: after the demons of doubt have spoken, simply tell yourself "I'm a fucking genius" and get back to work. It's strategic delusion as artistic superpower—and it just might be the difference between giving up and breaking through.

Send us a message - we would love to hear from you!

Make sure to follow us on Instagram here:

@justmakeartpodcast @tynathanclark @nathanterborg

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:13):
Hey, nathan, you ready to survive the art world?

Speaker 2 (00:17):
I'd like to think I'm doing okay so far.
Are you doing okay?
I mean, if survival is thestandard, then yes, we have
lived to fight another day.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
Well, I've got some psychic strategies for dealing
with the ugliness.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
I can't wait, yeah, I cannot wait.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
So this is step five.
This is the beginning of ourfourth episode on Jerry Saltz's
wonderful book how to Be anArtist, and we are going to jump
right into something that Ithink you and I have in common
and that is we want it, wereally want it, and Jerry says
here number 49, you have to wantit To be an artist.

(00:53):
Julian Lethbridge has said ithelps to be persistent,
obstinate and determined.
These are the things thatenable an artist not to banish
but to outwit the doubts thatwill come from many directions.
Doubts every direction.
Every one of you out therelistening, I know, knows that
the doubts come in fromeverywhere and a little bit

(01:14):
lower.
It says wanting it is whatallows us to place ourselves
again in the aesthetic lattices,feeling for ideas, inspirations
and dreamscapes and otherthermal updrafts that will flow
through fear and doubt.
Persistence, determination andobstinacy give us the energy.
They'll get you through hell,taking you from wanting it to

(01:35):
doing it, to living it.
I know every one of thosefeelings, I know wanting it, I
know the doing it and I now amfortunate enough to say that I'm
living it.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Can you?
I would love to hear you talkabout all three of those phases
and if you can think ofapproximately, maybe even a
specific moment of when thosethree things, those three
distinct phases, became true foryou.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean wanting it.
I've always wanted it.
I grew up around it, I grew upin it.
I saw a lot of art.
Growing up, I read about art.
I've always drawing, alwaysmaking art, always trying to
progress to something.
Didn't know what that meant, hadno idea what that meant as a
kid or a young teen or a youngadult even and I think it really
was art school made me start towant it even more.

(02:23):
Like being in that arena with abunch of other artists who kind
of had that same mindset, likewe all want this, we're all
going for this, this is what wewant to do.
This is kind of our dream, youknow, and we're dreaming of
Warhol and Basquiat and allthese artists that we're
learning about in the, you know,mid, late 90s in school and

(02:45):
even Julian Schnabel's werefresh in our heads but may have
already been big, but in ourheads and then LA artists that
were doing things at that timein the nineties and just all of
a sudden starting to have thatfeeling.
But then, once school's out andwe were like now what?
I was still making stuff, butthen you have to kind of get a
life.
A little bit it seems likecause you don't really know what
to do.
So you're working and you'regrinding and you're doing all

(03:05):
those things and I'd say it wasprobably gosh, five or six years
after I was married.
So I said in 2006, 2007, met agroup of dudes who were working
for me at my skate shop in theNorth Dallas area and they were
in art school at UNT.
My buddy, sean Ellis, was inart school and introduced me to

(03:27):
all his buddies in the programthere in drawing and painting,
even though I was older thanthem.
I started hanging out withthese artists and they were in
one of the best art schools inthe nation and we started
hanging out and doing our ownart shows.
So then all of a sudden we weredoing it like meeting up at
each other at my garage really,which was 5d the number on the
little garage outside was called5d, so we named ourselves 5d

(03:49):
artists and there were five ofus and so we started doing our
own little shows and so we werelike we were doing it, but still
distractions, life, all thesethings around us.
They start graduating, movingon to grad school and other
things.
Then we're separated, thenyou're kind of alone again and
then it took a while.
I was in the entrepreneur worldstartups, fashion line, outdoor

(04:10):
brands, doing all these things.
Then when I finally left Iguess it would have been 12
years ago, 14 years ago now whenI finally left that world I
went 100% in.
But just that whole processdoes have that evolution, like
Jerry says here, of that wantingit, doing it and living it.

(04:32):
And I would say none of thoseare a smooth transition, because
I know a lot of artists thatare doing it, living it, back to
wanting it, then living it.
You kind of jump through thesephases and these hoops and this
art life as well.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
Well, it's one of the things we talk about a lot.
I know we've covered this inprevious parts of this series in
the book, because Jerryaddresses it in different ways
more than once but I think thatthat's really an interesting
thing to think about is just thewanting it and doing it.
That transition, specifically,and the one that you just spoke
to, I think, is really veryrelevant.

(05:08):
It's very important for us toreally think about.
It's one thing to wantsomething, anything we're
talking about art specificallybut this applies, of course, to
anything that we may have astrong desire to have in our
life to do, to be, to achieve,whatever it might be, but it's
the doing it, and doing itconsistently.
That, and only that, willactually lead to any version of

(05:31):
actually living, living it Right.
And so that's the, that's thebig thing and it's a it's a
critical question.
I think we probably, I think,closed a part three with a
version of this conversationaround like, okay, if you really
want it, then there's a lot ofaction required, a lot of
prioritization around like, allright, am I building?
If I want to live it, I have tobuild a life around being able

(05:55):
to do it consistently, whether Ifeel like it or not, whether
I'm getting positivereinforcement from or any
version of external validation,that I may or may not be on the
right track, it's consistentlyyou know, doing it and taking
that want into action where themagic really happens.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yeah, and I don't think I was thinking about this
a while back.
I don't think that there'sanything job wise or career wise
.
Let say career-wise, becauseart's a job, that's not a job
and it's really a career.
That's not a career, but it'sthe one thing that you don't
ever retire from Right.
I don't know if there'sanything else out there that

(06:36):
exists the way that art does.
I think I was telling you orsomebody that my wife and I had
hired a financial advisor awhile back a new financial
advisor and we're having theconversation with him and he was
saying well, what age do youwant to retire?
And we were talking about,because we both work for
ourselves, we have to find a wayto save right For when we're
older, and so, because we don'thave your 401ks and the

(06:59):
traditional retirement plans,because we work for ourselves,
we're trying to figure out theseways to save well and invest
well for our future.
And he said when do you want toretire?
And I said I'm not going toretire and he goes no, but let's
pick an age like 65, whenyou're done doing artists.
And no, I don't think youunderstand.
Like I'm going to be 90 in awheelchair, you know, like
Matisse in my bed with a longstick with pastels making art.

(07:21):
And he's like no, but when doyou want to like really be done?
And I was like no, I don't wantto be done.
My goal is to make art untilthe day I die, right?
So there's this weird I don'tknow what this thing about art
that it's like you should alwaysbe wanting it now doing it and
living it.
We're going to, they're goingto change and flux, but I don't

(07:42):
think wanting it ever disappears.
I even think, for the greatestartists in history, what
propelled them to keep goingwhen they hit this certain peak,
so to say, is that they stillwanted it and they were willing
and we'll read about some ofthose artists in a minute and
they were willing to go theextra mile to change and evolve
and develop, and that causedthem to keep wanting and wanting

(08:03):
and wanting it.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
And develop and that caused them to keep wanting and
wanting and wanting it.
And what a gift I mean what?
What a gift it is to be able to, to be doing something that we
have no desire to stop, likewe're I.
I'm laughing at thatconversation because I can
imagine how that, how thatprobably went, but it's like no,
no, no, you don't understand.
I'm doing the thing, like I'mdoing the thing that I would

(08:26):
want to do if I wasn't alreadydoing it.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yeah, yeah, he still didn't get it at the end he
still would come back to it andgo.
But what about like no, no nodude just hear what I'm saying
and just move on.
Don't keep coming back to it.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
But it really is.
It's interesting, it really isa sort of longevity hack in a
way, when you think about theage that a lot of working
artists achieve, you know how,how late in life, I mean a lot
of variables go into that as faras you know lifestyle and how
one treats one's body in timeand the rest of it.
But you know, I think it's uh,I mean time and the rest of it.

(09:06):
But you know, I think it's uh,I mean there.
There's so many examples ofpeople who retire and the
decline begins almostimmediately because they've lost
their sense of purpose,especially when somebody retires
and they don't have some youknow things in their life that
they're super passionate aboutcontinuing to do Right, it's a,
it's purpose, it's a, it's areason to get up in the morning
and keep showing up and have aleaning into whatever vitality.

(09:30):
You know we, we have left, butwe get so much it's so
energizing.
We get so much energy and weget so much life from what we
pour into our work that I thinkthat I will live longer because
of this than I would have if Iwas on a more traditional path
where I had an answer for thefinancial planner to say oh,

(09:53):
soon are the better, 65 are thelatest, whatever the number is,
but it is.
If you look at it purely from afinancial perspective, that's
the hey.
Most people are doing the thingthat they're doing.
You know they're.
They're trading time for moneyto get to a point where they no
longer have to do that.
That's not.
That's not the game that we'replaying.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
Yeah, well, and I generalized what I do as an
artist, but most of the arts,about 90% of the arts, fall into
that category right Writer,photographer, filmmaker, actor,
actress, like the arts is just avery special place where you
can continue, like you said, tohave that mental aptitude of
really wanting it and reallywanting to grow and continue

(10:36):
with a passion for a very, verylong time.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
Well, and I think visual arts have a very
particular place in thatcreative realm.
Yeah, I remember talking to agood friend of mine, andrew, who
works on Broadway.
We had a good conversation whenwe were out there in New York
and he said I'm so jealous ofyou being able to practice your
craft and do what you love to dowithout any need for approval,

(11:04):
and do what you love to dowithout any need for approval.
Or he's like I have to, I haveto get, I have to audition and
get roles.
I then have to.
I mean then, basically, at thewhim of how the show does, how
long it's going to run, likewhat that opportunity is
actually going to look like.
We don't have any of that.
I mean that's not.
I shouldn't say any of that.
I mean that's not, I shouldn'tsay any of that.
Certainly there's some of that,but in terms of like, just the

(11:25):
pure ability to continue doingwhat we love to do, making what
we feel called to make andputting out into the world.
There are no external gatesthat are required to continue
doing that.
And, man, what a, what a gift,what a gift Big gift.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yeah, all right, moving on.
Ooh, this one's a good one.
I think this one is soimportant for today Making an
enemy out of envy.
Envy looks at others but blindsyou and it will eat you alive
as an artist.
Instagram I can't tell you howmany artists I have talked to

(12:02):
that get absolutely eaten aliveby envy because of Instagram.
It distracts the mind, itleaves less room for development
.
Most important, for honestself-criticism.
And I love how he says in thesecond paragraph don't let
jealousy define you, make yousour, bitter, unloving or mean.
So all those other bad artistsare getting shows and you're not

(12:24):
.
So they're getting the articles, the money and the love.
So all those other bad artistsare getting shows and you're not
.
So they're getting the articles, the money and the love.
So they went to better schools,married someone rich, have
thinner ankles, they're betterlooking, more social.
It's tough.
We all do the best we can, butpoor me, can't make your work
better.
I've got like a bridesmaidsmoment in my head.
Poor me.
She's on the airplane, one ofmy favorite scenes.

(12:46):
Can't make you work better andyou're out of the game if you
don't show up.
So grow a backbone and get backto work.
Like, envy is crippling for anartist.
And today, I mean, imagine backin the day, like the only time
you were going to see envy is ifyou walked into the gallery or
the salon, right, or you walkedinto the artist studios near

(13:07):
where you lived and you saw thework and you know you go.
You know whatever.
I need to run back and make art, whatever, but envy makes you
go.
I'm never going to do it.
They're not as good as me, theyhaven't been around as long as
me, they haven't worked as hardas me, but they're getting their

(13:30):
shot.
They're getting their chance.
Why am I not now?
Resistance sets in now.
That holds you back fromeverything, and I have this
conversation with artists.
All the time they get lockedinto scrolling and as they're
scrolling, rather than lookingfor being inspired or being
driven by these things, they getenvious and they get jealous of
those people around them whoare getting things that they're
not, and that is that's adisease.
It's a mental crippling disease, for for the artist to get

(13:55):
stuck in that repetitive motionof comparing is fine, oh wow.
I think I'm better than themand they're doing more than me.
I need to step my game up.
So I think probably a smallpercentage of us have.

Speaker 2 (14:28):
In other words, the moment we experience that or
feel that, just oh, set it aside, that's not my business, but
let's just assume that we'regoing to experience a version of
this at different times.
How can that be channeled?
How can we take that energy andsay, I mean, to your point,
leave the salon, run back andsay, all right, I got to get to
work?
You know how many stories havewe read, how many biographies,

(14:49):
autobiographies have we readabout artists that have done
exactly that?
All of them, and it's led tosome of their best work?
Yeah, right, yeah, so there issomething to be done with that,
but it has to be processed andchanneled in a productive and
healthy way.
I mean the number of times I'veseen other artists on Instagram
that have thinner ankles thanme.
You know what I mean and I'mjust like man.

(15:11):
I looked down at my ankles.
I'm just like why are they not?

Speaker 1 (15:17):
I just love.
There's nothing you can do,Nathan.
I know there's nothing you cando.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
I know they're so thick, but I mean, one of the
many things I love about Jerry'swriting style is just, you know
, sneaking those things in therethat are just, but it is.
I mean, it's a silly sort oftongue-in-cheek example of
feeling sorry for ourselvesbecause we don't have a an

(15:47):
advantage that we think thatsomebody else does.
And to your point about socialmedia, is really we talk about
this all the time but it's it's.
It's something that is reallyimportant to just acknowledge
and understand is that when whatwe see of other people, it's
it's the best of the best, it'sthe highlights, right, you know,

(16:07):
and it's.
And we all, we all know, likeintellectually, that that's not
reality.
We know that what we're seeingis just the best of the best,
it's just the, it's just thegood stuff.
But it's really easy to fall inthe trap of just assuming that
what we're seeing is just howthey're living every, every day
is just another finished amazingpiece.

(16:27):
You know, yeah, and some of usshare our, our, some people
share their failures.
You know more readily thanothers, but for the most part,
what we're, what we're seeing,it's just the, it's the
highlight reel.
You know it's not reality atall.
You know it's very, very, verysafe to assume that the people

(16:48):
that we might be envious of areexperiencing a very similar, if
not identical, version of whatwe're experiencing when they
look at other stuff that's outthere as well.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, yeah, well, and these are all human emotions
jealousy, envy, all those thingsare and it's it's not the fact
that you feel it, it's how youact upon that feeling.
Right, right, that's what takesthose things from being healthy
, competitive nature to adestructive emotional pattern.
That's right.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
So we're not.
We're not wrong.
You're not wrong for feeling.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
Not at all.
I feel it all the time.
It all the time, all the timelike what?
Oh really, you know?
And it's taking me years to getto the point where I can just
shut it off, yeah, and just go.
Good for them.
Good for them and just move onor go.
Well, I'm about to spend eighthours crushing it in the studio

(17:41):
today because that's justpissing me off.
So let's go.
Using it in those ways is muchbetter than just going and then
crawling up on the couch andflipping on.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
Netflix for 10 hours.
That's right.
Yeah, that spite can cause oneto do one of those two things,
and I've done that.

Speaker 1 (17:57):
I'm not saying that I've never done that.
I have definitely done that.
I'm just going to binge for thenext few days because I'm so
frustrated that so-and-so's gotthis, you know, or whatever.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
Spite is a useful energy.
It's a useful fuel.
It's not a great long-termstrategy, but for the first it
can be extremely helpful anduseful to lean into.
Let's move to the next section,number 51, deadline Deadlines

(18:31):
from heaven.
Deadlines are sent from heavenvia hell.
When you have to finish acertain work by a certain time,
the pressure can sicken you,make you feel rotten.
I haven't not been queasy withdeadlines since I became a
weekly critic.
But deadlines force you tomuster the metal to work.
Remember your work is entirelyvoluntary, so procrastination is
a self harming habit.
Good line, great line Selfharming.

(18:53):
Procrastinate If you want to,you know.
Procrastinate if you must forperiods of time, but just know
that when we do that we are, weare choosing to harm ourselves
and our practice.
He goes on to write if youdon't have a deadline set one
for yourself, many famousartists make their own one day
deadlines, and he goes on tolist a number of the greats that

(19:14):
have done that.
It's a trick that helps youkeep the work open.
I'm going to read that again.
It's a trick that helps youkeep the work open, unresolved
and developing.
Meet your deadlines.
And so I'm a big fan ofmanufacturing these self-imposed
deadlines.
I mean, you think about being aweekly critic.

(19:35):
I mean that's a real deadline.
Hey, we're going to print, weneed this, whatever it's going
to be by this time and we don'thave anything close to that, but
I do think.
I mean, I had this moment, Ithink, when I was preparing for
my my second solo show, where Iwas like, and of course, you
know, after the, every time wepromise ourselves never again am

(19:56):
I going to be, you know,pulling all nighters and and and
it's like, no, here, here weare again, and so just but, but
the realization was wow, I canget a tremendous amount of work
done in a short amount of timewhen I have to.
Yeah, that pressure drives.
It's a very, very powerful,powerful, you know, motivating

(20:19):
factor.
So the question to me becomesall right, how can we really
lean into that trick that Jerrytalks about setting deadlines
for ourselves?
And again, they're completelyself-imposed.
I rarely meet my self-imposeddeadlines, but I definitely get

(20:39):
a lot more work done when I amsomewhat time-focused, lot more
work done when I am somewhattime focused.
From I think it was part two wetalked about finish the damn
thing.
Yeah, just finish the damnthing, as though you had to, you
know, just realizing that theand this is something I struggle
with consistently but just the,the extra hours that may go

(21:01):
into making something maybe 2%better, hell, maybe worse, if
we're being honest is muchbetter spent starting the next
thing, finishing the previousone and continuing to push the
work forward.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
Yeah, I have a little .
I have a little deadline hackthat that I do and that's, uh,
open calls.
So while I'm working on a bodyof work even like the new work
I'm working on that I haven'tshown or put out there or
anything yet.
There are three open calls thatI have in my calendar with due
dates coming up at the end ofAugust and middle of September,

(21:37):
and so I have those in mycalendar and they pop up every
day until the deadline.
But my goal is to have a workthat I submit to that open call
from my body of work.
Whether I get in or not.
It's just giving me that littlebit of pressure and kind of
forcing me to have a little bitmore focus in the moments,

(21:58):
because not that we're notfocused in the studio, but it's
a different focus.
With the deadline it's a verydifferent focus.
Yeah, you're laser focusedrather than broadly looking at
everything around you focused,you're just driving towards that
certain specific area ratherthan just looking around

(22:18):
everywhere while you're working.
So I put a few open calls in,have them in my calendar and it
keeps a little bit of pressurein the background, just pushing
me to.
Okay, I've worked for a fewhours today.
Let's go ahead and give anotherhour or two and just kind of
see what comes from it, type ofthings.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
And there's a time for both, for sure.
Like both of those phases Ithink are certainly necessary.
You know, we have to sow awhole bunch of seeds and water
them, and they need sunlight andall the rest of it for us to be
able to harvest.
But when it's time to harvest,it's time.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
When you're building for a show, it's a specific
focus Right.
When you're not, the world isopen Yep, like you're still
driving with your ideas.
The world is open Yep, likeyou're still driving with your
ideas.
And all of you artists outthere who have had solo shows or
even been in group shows, youknow that that focus totally
changes.
When you're driving to finishwork with a deadline for an

(23:16):
exhibition, there's a singlefocus of time.
Yeah, now, that doesn't meanthat ideas don't pop up that
entire time, because they alwaysdo While you're working mean
that ideas don't pop up thatentire time because they always
do, while if you're working onthat specific set of work, you
kind of have to parking lot someof those ideas and push them
around, or the work kind ofchanges towards the end, which
is why you put in so many morehours, because all of a sudden,
ooh, what if I go this way andthen cause that pressure is just

(23:39):
pushing you to get to thatfinish point.
And then, when you don't havethat deadline, a lot of artists
kind of struggle with okay, nowwhat?
Now, how do I kind of focusthat same energy in?
And so that's that learningprocess of how to find those
other little moments, and that'swhat Jerry's talking about.
Set some specific deadlines foryourself within that time, so

(24:02):
that you have that same littlepressure or drive pushing you.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
Well, that's where I think having a practice around
capturing those ideas that docome up when it is time to just
finish what's already in frontof us, but to capture those
little threads to be pulledlater, is really, really
valuable, whatever that lookslike for you.
I've taken to doing audio voicememos.
I've used that app every day,you know, before I leave the
studio, as I'm driving home,like just capturing different

(24:31):
things that have opened up.
I'll then transfer that intonotes or a digital documents
that I that I keep, that I canrevisit later and that's really
fun, it's a blast to.
Oh yeah, that's right, I didhave and this is one thing that
that David Lynch talks about inhis book that we've referenced a
number of times catching thebig fish.

(24:51):
But that's.
It's one of those things wheresome of those big fish will come
back just by virtue of uscontinuing to be, you know, in
the, in the group, and continueto make new work.
But some of them are just,they're just little flashes that
if we don't capture them inreal time, maybe not, maybe when
we don't have time, even if wedon't have time to execute on
them in that moment but wecapture them, we set them aside

(25:15):
to be revisited later when we dohave that open space to really
explore.

Speaker 1 (25:20):
Absolutely Well.
And as we're talking aboutsurviving the art world, we're
about to jump into somethingthat every single one of us, as
artists, are going to deal withon immense levels throughout our
entire career, and that islearning to deal with rejection.
And I love how Jerry says Itell artists to grow elephant

(25:40):
skin because you're going toneed it.
I've heard other artists sayrhinoceros skin.
I've heard you know all thesedifferent things from artists
like you.
Better have thick skin Ifyou're going to be in the art
world.
You're going to need it.
Criticism happens even to themasters, and the impressionists
are one of my favorite storiesin art history.
After a precocious debut,claude Monet was rejected

(26:01):
repeatedly by the Paris Salon.
The Paris Salon was the it.
You weren't doing anything ifyou weren't in the Paris Salon.
At that point, edward Manet wassaid to display inconceivable
vulgarity.
Manet didn't want to exhibitwith Cezanne because he thought
Cezanne was vulgar.
A contemporary critic wrote doesDegas know nothing about

(26:23):
drawing like constantly gettingrejected from peers and critics
and the art world?
And he says at the end of thisbut don't ignore the bad reviews
.
Instead, keep your rejectionletters, keep your bad reviews,
your slights, your oversightsand the rest.
Paste them on your wall.
They're goads, things for youto prove wrong.

(26:45):
Don't get taken down by them.
They don't define you, and Ilove this.
This is one of my favoritemoments, except that any this is
coming from a critic the criticin the US.
Except that any piece ofcriticism might have a grain of
truth to it that something inyour work allowed the critic to
lower the boom, or maybe youhaven't yet found a way to make

(27:07):
your work speak to people thatyou're trying to reach.
That's on you, take it in.
Don't blow it out of proportion.
Then get back to work.
I always tell anyone criticizingme you could be right.
It has a double edge.
Sometimes the victim neverfeels a thing.
Now, I'm just going to kind ofbreeze through 53 here, because
it's the same thing.
Sometimes the victim neverfeels a thing.
Now, I'm just going to kind ofbreeze through 53 here, because

(27:28):
it's the same thing.
After the rejection, after youget this critical injury, you
have to recover from thesethings.
We're human beings.
Our feelings get hurt veryeasily.
We're artists.
We're emotional.
We're putting ourselves and oursouls into our work.
When we get rejected or we gettrash talked or a troll finds us
on Instagram.

(27:48):
Whatever it is, it's going tohurt.
It's an injury, right, it's amental, it is a character injury
.
You have to recover from it.
And I love this Jim Lewis, whoactually got to meet a while
back at a Jerry lecture.
He's an Austin novelist andcritic.
If people dismiss your work,strive to make them hate it.
If no one hates it, it mightnot be art.

(28:11):
I love that.
Any true gesture put out in theworld is bound to please some
and displease others.
So don't make your art go downthat easy.
Often you can learn more fromthe boos than you can from the
applause, especially if you'rebrave enough to really think
about them.
The qualities in your work thatbother people are often

(28:32):
precisely the ones that youshould cultivate.
Push so far out of the axis ofvice that they come around to be
virtues.
So we get beat up, we getpunched, we get a bad review.
Somebody talks about our work.
Then we have to recover from itin a healthy way and keep
pushing ahead.
And I know this was a few yearsback.
I'm not sure if you were stillin the program or if it was just

(28:55):
after the program, the nextsession, my mentorship program.
I think it was after.
Was it after or was it during?
It was after yeah or was itduring, it was after, yeah.
So I got a message from, uh,somebody that was in your
session that said hey, Ty, haveyou been to Jerry Saltz's
Instagram today?
I said no, I haven't.
And they went oh, you need togo check it out.

(29:15):
Go look at it right now.
And it was a weird messageRight.
So I was thinking, why are theysending this weird message?
So I go to Jerry's Instagram andhe's got the a carousel post
and he's just basically beingJerry and ripping to shred a
number of male artists who areworking large scale on pieces

(29:37):
and he's got a whole I mean,it's a there's a pretty long
description that he's rippinginto these guys.
So I'm swiping through and I'mand I don't really know any.
I know who these artists arefrom Instagram, Cause at the
time their accounts were reallykind of exploding some of these
artists, and it keeps goingthrough.
And then all of a sudden, Iland on none other than you,
Nathan Turborg, of just a few Ithink it were you the last one

(29:59):
on the carousel, or one secondto last, or something.
And I went, oh no, and my firstthought was cause I'm literally
teaching in the program at thispoint, I just went through this
section on bad criticism,rejection and recovering from
injuries, and so I rememberhopping on the phone with you
and going, hey, you want to talk, so tell us about this, this,

(30:23):
this you're not too long intoyour art career and then a
Pulitzer prize winning artcritic basically tears into the
work you're making.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
I did want to talk when you called for sure, yeah,
I mean.
So I want to be clear.
He didn't name I don't thinkanybody.
Right, he didn't name anybody.
He even said I don't knowanybody here.
I just found these from theinternet you know, and so that
was at a time, for sure, when Ihad my, my Instagram.

(30:55):
Uh, engagement was well aheadof my work.
I will, I will put it.
I'll put it that way and I wantto be very clear too.
Like it was, it was not acriticism of any of those
artists work, specific, generalcriticism, generalization and,
to be fair, like the, the videothat he pulled it fit perfectly,
you know, in that narrative.

(31:16):
So, you know, after I sat withthat for a little bit of time I
was like, yeah, that actuallythat that was fair, you know.
So, even though it was not adirect criticism of my work or
what I was doing as a whole, byany stretch, I go back to that
one line that you read earlier,much trickier, except that any
piece of criticism might have agrain of truth to it, that
something in your work allowedthis critic to lower the boom,

(31:38):
and so that really was a seminalmoment for me, even though it
was again just a clip that fitand wasn't really a full
evaluation of my work at thetime.
But even if it had been a full,it would have fit right.
And so I made a decision atthat point, and the decision I

(31:59):
made was.
Never again will I fall in acategory of just another blank
Now, or at least make it muchmore difficult to say that about
my work.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
And and I took that kind of what we were, what we
were referencing earlier, I tookthat energy into the work and I
said, you know, this is, thisis fair.
I, I do belong sort of in thisbatch and I'm not going to let
that happen again.
I'm going to, I'm going to, I'mgoing to take my work far out

(32:36):
of field, I'm going to let thewild animal in me feed.
You know from a previous quotethat we shared one of my
probably my favorite you knowfrom from this book, and I'm
going to keep pushing.
I'm not going to camp out whereI was and I was early on.
I mean, it was nothing evenresembling what I'm doing now
for that reason, but thatdecision was really important

(32:57):
for me to be able to be likeokay, there is more than a grain
of truth in this and what do Iwant to do with that?

Speaker 1 (33:06):
Will you share with me real quick, just with
everybody that's listening, as abeginning artist, cause at that
moment you were beginning, youhad nothing, no shows lined up,
no, nothing.
Like you were just trying tofigure out who am I as an artist
and what am I going to make andwhere am I going with this, and
you were just getting very,very serious about it.
So, just as a human being, melike what was that initial, like

(33:31):
discovery of that moment andthe feelings like I was, uh, I
was gutted.

Speaker 2 (33:40):
I mean I was, I, I was, I felt sick to my stomach.
Yeah, I mean especially thatfirst, when I first read it and
saw it, like that first day ortwo it was, it was, I was, I was
mourning the loss of an artcareer that didn't even exist.
You know what I mean.
I was just like, well, I'm done.
You know, jerry said so and sothat's, that's that, and it's uh

(34:01):
, it's been a nice littleexperiment, let me, let me
figure out what I'm going to doinstead.
I mean, I was absolutely gutted.
Yeah, there's, there's no otherway to describe it.
You know, I really did take thaton the chin and and it hurt, it
hurt a lot again, even though Ikeep I keep saying this as a
qualifier, but I did understandthat it wasn't like, hey, I've
looked at Nathan Turborg's workand blah, blah, blah, but I, I

(34:24):
really did feel like initially,like that was the, that was the
end, like, like I was done, likethere was no point in
continuing.
You know, all of the, whicheversection, the, uh, the thin
ankles, yeah, you know, I willsay it this way Imposter
syndrome was, was, was that thatin me, was fed, it was alive

(34:45):
and well and raging, you know,for for a couple of days, and it
took me some time to take thatenergy, process it and use it.
I'm proud to say, uh, that I,that I did do that, I used that
energy and said, nope, not again, never again Is this going to
happen.
And because, let's be honest,like I was just trying to find
my way and I was just doingstuff, you know, if you would

(35:06):
have asked me at that point, doyou feel like you've found
anything close to your style oryour unique voice, I would have
said no, I mean, I I think Ikind of like what I'm doing, but
I have no idea where this isgoing.
You know, and, um, yeah, it was, uh, it was rough, but I'm
super thankful for it now.
I'm super thankful because thatreally was a big turning point

(35:26):
for me.

Speaker 1 (35:27):
Well, that's why I asked the question because that
really was a big turning pointfor me.
Well, that's why I asked thequestion.
That's why I asked the question, because all of you artists out
there are going to have amoment like that.
It's inescapable.
You're going to have a momentwhere you're absolutely crushed,
your spirits are broken, yourwork is disliked, it didn't go

(35:48):
the way you wanted it to,nothing sold, nothing moved.
What you thought was going tobe the next step is two steps
back.
This is just part of being anartist, and I think this is
probably why, in the history ofart, there is a lot of addiction
and a lot of young deaths and alot of artists who stop because

(36:13):
recovering from criticalinjuries.
There are certain steps we haveto take to not take those
injuries with us along the roadand continue to bring us down
and make us lean on things thatare not ourself and lean on
other things to help lose thatfeeling or lose that injury

(36:34):
Right.
And so how you deal with thatcan not saying that it won't can
affect your career, can affectyour trajectory, can affect the
way that you make your work.
I'm not saying always, but itcan.
So learn everyone how torecover from those things.

(36:54):
Well, whatever it takes, I don'tknow what that means If you
need counseling for thingsbecause you just have such a
hard time recovering from stuff.
That's why having those artfriends is so important, because
they understand the moment.
Yeah, they understand thelosses.
They understand the losses,they understand the celebrations
, and being able to sit and talkabout those things with your

(37:15):
artist crew and your artistfriends is just vital.
It's so vital.

Speaker 2 (37:19):
It's funny, as you say, that I'm remembering the
therapist that I was workingwith at the time.
We had a session scheduled forthat afternoon Actually, it was
shortly, it was that same dayand she said okay, so should we
pick up where we left off?
I said, no, we're going to talkabout something else today.
Let me tell you where I'm atright now, and so you know, one

(37:40):
of the things that she helped mewith was just realizing that
and this applies certainly toall artists, all creatives we're
sensitive, you know, we're,we're, we're extra sensitive.
That's one of our superpowersas well.
That's something thatabsolutely makes us better
artists.
But there's a there's, there's,there's a I don't want to say a

(38:01):
downside, but there's another,another, an opposite side of
that coin is that we are moreopen to injury, I would say, or,
you know, feeling things at adeeper level, making things mean
more than they do in bothdirections is a tendency you
know that that we have.
So it does come back toacknowledging all right, is my

(38:23):
is?
Is, is my personal safetyreally in danger?
I felt as though I wasphysically being attacked.
Safety really in danger?
I felt as though I wasphysically being attacked.
Yep, um, you know, uh, but am Isafe?
Are my loved ones?
Okay, you know, is this?
Is this really, uh, a fivealarm fire where, where I need
to have that fight or flight,you know response, or is it

(38:46):
something that I can just sitwith and and work through and
process and do something usefulwith Yep?

Speaker 1 (38:54):
Yeah, I mean, I've had so many critical injuries
over the years and it's likenone of them are easier than the
other to recover from, and I'vehad plenty of short moments of
throwing the towel thoughtsbecause of those injuries.
Right, and it's like you havethis feeling inside of why in

(39:16):
the hell am I doing this?
If it's going to go this way,right, and it's like you can
either make that short lived oryou can make that long term, and
I think it's taken me a whileto get to the point where I'm
able now to make them very shortterm Right.
You had talk about yourexperience with the gallery in
LA.
I mean, that was, yeah, I had ablue chip gallery in LA that

(39:36):
had formed, with a really biginvestor behind them, and the
director from Maddox Gallery LAwent to run that gallery and I
was one of the first artists inthere with some fantastic
artists from around the U?
S and one thing led to anotherand the investor who owned the
space had run away with investormoney and he had a couple

(39:57):
Michelin star restaurants.
So he's he's a big, big, bigdeal financially and he had
fraudulent PPP loans from COVIDand fled the country and stole
art, didn't pay people who hadbought, didn't pay artists whose
art had sold, did not deliver,didn't pay people who had bought
, didn't pay artists whose arthad sold, did not deliver art to
the people who bought the works.
And some of us had work stuckin storage unit that was going

(40:18):
to auction off the work becausehe had an enormous owed debt to
the store art storage facility.
So they're going to auction offthe art to get their money back
.
I mean, lapd was involved.
I had conversation withdetectives to get my work back
with LAPD.
That was just a bitch of asituation.
They were wonderful and then Ilost my insurance after that

(40:39):
because there were two paintingsstolen.
So they actually my artinsurance paid for those
paintings that were stolen, butthen they dropped me after that,
so it's just the gallery's gone.
I have to spend money to flyout to LA to rent a truck to
drive my work back.
Luckily, the manager who wasfired by this guy for calling
him out on his financial thingshad recovered my work for me

(41:01):
with the LAPD.
She was wonderful in doing that.
But I lost money, I lost artand it was one of those moments
where you just took the nextstep in your art career and then
it's just taken away from youand you're kind of back to where
you thought you weren't goingto be anymore.
And in that moment I was sodevastated, utterly devastated,

(41:22):
and I said you know what, let'ssit in the devastation today and
then let's get back on thehorse tomorrow.
So I allowed myself some timeto just complain and bitch and
moan and be sad and frustrated.
And then I turned around thenext day, or it was probably a
week or so, and then went allright back at it.

(41:43):
Let's go.
I have hundreds of these storiesfrom artists, friends in the
art world.
This is just part of it.
You can ask any artist who'smade it right to the level that
you want to be at and they'regoing to have stories of work
going missing, um, work beingdamaged.
I've had work damage shippingcoming back from the museum show
.
I've had work completelydamaged done.

(42:05):
I had work damaged in shippingto the museum for the show.
Luckily the museum restore wasable to fix the edges of it
before it went on display forthe exhibition.
But just that it's a criticalinjury, knowing that your work
was treated like shit bysomebody you pay to ship it and
then it's not even hanging theway that you actually created it

(42:27):
.
There's something wrong with it.
All of these things cause theseinjuries that I think, if you
handle it well, it only makesyou a better artist.
Only makes you a better artist.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
We were talking earlier about Elephant Skin and
it reminded me of a Tom Pettysong.
I think it was on Wildflowers.
I just pulled up the lyrics,but the name of the song is
Rhino Skin.
Do you remember that song?
Yeah, great album, one of myfavorites.
I'm going to read the firstcouple of lines you need rhino
skin if you're going to begin towalk through this world.

(43:00):
You need elephant balls if youdon't want to crawl on your
hands through this world.
Maybe let's talk before we kindof close this section.
Maybe let's talk about okay,cool, sounds good.
Rhino skin, elephant skin.
Yep, got to be tougher, got toprocess this.
But that's not an overnightdecision.
Like, oh, I've just got rhinoskin.

(43:21):
Now Like, no, you know, closeour eyes and it just doesn't
happen that way.

Speaker 1 (43:51):
You know.
So maybe, Ty, if you couldspeak to what that process has
been like for you to maybe notjust wake up with rhino skin,
but how have you been able tothicken your skin over time
without becoming desensitized tothe sensitivity that makes you
a great artist?
Yeah, I think there's a fewthings.
One and we talk about this alot is I read and I study a lot,
and so I constantly am hearingthe same stories from my heroes,
and that, to me, is nothingmore than a massive

(44:11):
encouragement to know that myheroes in the history of art
went through the same things Iam going through.
Like that, for me, is I'm notalone.
I've had, I have a big networkof artists, friends, and I know
their stories.
I think vulnerability plays ahuge part into it as well, that
I'm willing to call my friend Vand say, devastated, this just
happened and get it out in theopen and not hold it in and
share it with somebody else andlet somebody else share that

(44:32):
with you.
I think that's huge.
But early on, when I first leftuh one of the businesses, I
started to go into art full time.
I drove my workout toCalifornia to see uh, one of my
old art professors and some ofmy old peers from art school and
just share my work and justtalk.
Am I on the right track?
What am I doing?
Being vulnerable with new workand new ideas.
And William Catling, who's oneof my heroes, was one of my art

(44:56):
professors, incredible sculptor.
He said you better be tough,you better be tough.
You will never do anything moredifficult but also more joyful
in your life.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
And, yeah, go ahead.
Well, what I'm hearing is thatI mean, in order for us to
properly address and heal awound, we need to first
acknowledge that there is awound there.

Speaker 1 (45:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
And if you don't have one,you're not going to know how to
deal with it yet.
So I think early on, I knewthese things were coming.
I believed him.
He's been through it, he, youknow, he's had work, he's had
sculptures missing, things beshipped off the wrong places.
Uh, like, he's been through it.
So I trusted him.
Right, there's a trust factor.
He's a mentor figure, like ifhe says it, it's probably true,

(45:43):
but I have no idea what thatmeans or what that's going to
look like until you get thereand then you go oh, there it is.
Yeah, this is horrible.
Yeah, but I know, knew it wascoming and I was vulnerable
enough to share that a lot oftimes on Instagram.
I've been somebody who's beenvery vulnerable with when things
happen.
Well, this just happened.

(46:03):
You know, this work just gotdamaged or I blew this, or this
happened to me.
So just know, everybody outthere, these things are going to
happen.
They're inevitable.
You can't escape it.
It's life Like shit happens.
So just know, prepare yourselfahead of time for something
might happen.
How are you going to handle itwhen it does?
There is self preparation youcan do emotionally, expecting

(46:27):
those things to happen and comeand I think having a network is
one of the best things.
You can have friends around youthat understand, outside of
your family, outside of yournon-art friends, where you can
get on the phone and go andbitch and moan and complain
about what happened, and theycan go yep, that happened to me
last year.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
And to Jerry's point, all roads really do lead back
to get to work, you big babies,absolutely.

Speaker 1 (46:54):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (46:54):
I'm a big baby and I need to get to work right.
If I really want to take itfrom wanting it to doing it, to
living it.
Maybe I regress on that path to.
Maybe I just want it.
Hell, maybe I question if Ireally want it.
Man, if this is what's on theother side of it, do I really
want this, you know?
But it has to at some point betranslated back into the work,

(47:18):
it has to get back into doing it.
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
Yeah, I think this next section for me was also
another part of that learningprocess through all that stuff,
because so many of my favoriteartists when I were young were
the overnight successes, so likethe Basquiat's and you know
artists who like hit it reallyquick, kind of those art stars
you know, because when you're inart school, like the art stars
are the ones that you'recelebrating in the moment and so

(47:43):
you're not really well, atleast for me.
I didn't really care about allthe people who spent an entire
lifetime building work.
I wanted it to happen likeright away, and so there's just
kind of for me there was thismachismo of like oh, I can do it
, my work's good, it's so good,it's perfect, it'll fit.
I just need to find the rightspot and I'm going to blow up.
And then, as you mature, youkind of realize, as he says here

(48:05):
, overnight is overrated.
Art stars are few and farbetween the majority of the art
world and history are the oneswho've lasted a very, very long
time and made a ton of work andit's hard to not think you're
going to be an overnight excessor want to be.
And he says art gives up itssecrets very slowly.
30 months isn't enough time, ittakes a lifetime.

(48:28):
And I want to read this quotefrom Julian Schnabel, right
after he got to New York as ayoung man 17, 18 years old at
the Whitney internship, and hesays every artist who comes to
New York wants to have a showright away.
Suppress this idea.
Young artists Understandthere's no reason to have a show

(48:48):
if there's nothing to show.
You might feel like you're agreat artist, and maybe you are.
You might be capable of doingsomething or saying something,
but maybe you haven't done it orsaid it yet.
Young artists are impatient forthe approval of other people,
but approval for what?
I think it's better to justcontinue working, letting
everything that is stimulatingyou affect you.
Maybe this sounds easy for meto say it is, but it's a fight

(49:12):
and you'll always have to fight,because even after the
galleries like your work, it'seven more difficult to keep your
autonomy.
And he was saying that after hehad a collector come or a
gallerist come, look at a pieceof art, one work of art that he
was so proud of.
And the guy walked in and kindof went okay, thanks, bye.
And he was devastated.

(49:32):
But he realized later like heneeded that moment of rejection,
though, for him to realize I'mnowhere near where I need to be.
Yeah, and even if he loved thatwork, I have nothing else
behind me to enforce for aperiod of time for that person
to even take a chance on me longterm, because there's nothing
to show yet.
So overnight is overrated.

(49:54):
Just be patient, everybody, andkeep making work.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
Art gives up its secrets very slowly, very slowly
, but what I read there is itdoes give up its secrets over
time.
That's kind of the subtext ofthat.
Right, this is a long game,we're playing a long game, so it
may not give up its secrets in30 months.
It may take 30 years, but itwill.
A version of art giving up itssecrets, which, of course, is

(50:19):
going to look very different fordifferent people, but it will
happen.
It takes a lifetime.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
Yeah, well, I'm just going to brush through.
Having a family is fine,because I think that's just a
great encouragement to everybodyout there who does have a
family.
It's okay.
Have a family, invest in yourfamily, make your family a part
of what you're doing.
And I have a note in here thatsays involve your kids, don't
neglect them.

(50:45):
Involve them in your art making, involve them in going to shows
, taking them to museums Like weshared last week a lot of the
images from when you and Ellawere in New York and her
pictures of you looking atWitten's work up close and
having her in that experienceand talking about those things
Like bring your kids into thatworld.
You know, I read so many artbooks and, man, I get so

(51:09):
freaking frustrated with theartists that are just neglecting
their family and neglectingtheir kids and, as I would say,
sacrificing in the wrong ways tomake it, because I truly
believe that every one of theseartists could have still had the
same career, even by keepingtheir family involved in what
they're doing.
Sure, would have been moredifficult, yeah, but they could

(51:30):
have done it.
I truly believe that becauseI've seen a lot of other artists
who have, who do it and have agreat family life and invest in
their kids, and their kids are apart of what they're doing and
they're not neglected, and sohaving a family is fine.
Moms out there, dads out there,like I had a one of my friends,
spencer, came to my studio afew weeks ago and she brought
her daughter with her.
She was in town in Waco and shebrought her daughter and she

(51:54):
wanted to see the studio and wesat and hung out and her
daughter's in the studio playingwith my studio assistant, cash,
my puppy, and we're sittingtalking about art and looking at
work.
But she involves her kids inwhat she's doing and sometimes
they even paint on her paintingswith her and then she paints
through what they're doing andthey add a little bit, and I
have other friends that do thesame.
So involve the family.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
It's a real joy, ty, honestly, to be able to bring
your family into something thatis special.
I think that I'm rememberingspecifically one time when our
oldest was like she was jokingwhen she said this, but she goes
yeah, my, my, my biggest flexis that my dad's an artist, so

(52:35):
it's a great way to be a coolparent, you know for for sure.
If nothing else but bringingthem into the process has been
such a joyful thing for me.
You know our oldest, lydia is,is a part-time studio studio
assistant.
She's also got a great eye.
I really enjoy bringing herinto the work itself.
So does my wife.
Sometimes I'm like hey, I gottwo ways I could go with this A
or B, and when either of them isdefinitively B, I'm like Great.

(53:00):
I don't do it often, but it'sso much fun just to have them
around and for it to be a familyaffair.
It's not something that a lotof career paths are inherently
interesting or fun to pullpeople into.
This is one of them where itreally really is, and it's just

(53:21):
incredibly fulfilling.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
Yeah, part of our, whenever we're on vacation, part
of our vacations is going toart museums and so we go around
and we look at work and we talkabout it and we go to dinner and
I love it.
I mean it's one of my favoritethings.
She'll take pictures of me infront of paintings.
She has me snap shots of her infront of the one she loves and
we talk about those works and,and I love now that I have my
studio on property again behindmy house, I missed having Mandy

(53:47):
always coming in in the middleof the day when I'm working and
just seeing what I'm working onand you know saying I don't know
if I like that, or Ooh, Ireally love that one.
We never like the same ones,like she always likes ones that
I'd not really like and too much.
But I need to still listen.
That's still an audience, right?
Well, what is what is sheseeing that?
What is it?
Oh well, she likes that color.

(54:08):
That's what it is.
What is what is she seeing that?
What is it?
Oh well, she likes that color.
That's what it is.
Or, you know, but still it's.
But she knows art, she's aroundit all the time, she can't
escape it.
She hears me talk about itevery freaking moment, right.
And there's the times wherewe're at dinner and she's like,
oh my gosh, I got to hear thisagain, you know, but so she's
got.
Sometimes the best feedbackthat Nikki gives me is don't you

(54:31):
dare do a single additionalthing, stop.
Yeah, make you think.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
That's great.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
No, it's done, don't do anything else.

Speaker 2 (54:39):
Stop fiddling.
She once said I will be mad atyou if you do anything else to
this particular piece.
I gave that one to her foranniversary.
But yeah, all right.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
I'm going to skip ahead here to 57, which has a
great quote from Jerry's wife atthe top Artists do not own the
meaning of their work.
That's from Roberta Smith.
I'd say she's probably thegreatest art critic in the US in
the last 25, 30 years andthat's the Pulitzer Prize
winning art critic's wife.
So and she says remember Ithink this is really good for us

(55:17):
to keep in our heads what hesays here Remember anyone may
experience your art, any art inany way that works for them.
You may say your work is aboutdiaspora, but others may call it
a reflection on climate changeor nature study.
This is something you want,roberta elaborates.
This means your work is alive,that it has more than just you

(55:39):
in it.
If you're lucky, it will remainalive long after you're gone,
changing and growing as more andmore people come into contact
with it.
That's what happens when youput your work out into the world
.
People will talk Let them.
You couldn't stop them if youtried.

(56:01):
Artists, when your work leavesyour studio, it's no longer
yours.
Yeah, you made it, but thatwork is no longer yours.
You do not control that anymore.
Some artists have a really hardtime with that, others none
right.
As Helen Frankenthaler said, lether rip.
When your art leaves yourstudio and goes into the gallery

(56:25):
or goes to the show or goesinto the museum or goes into the
art center, it's no longeryours.
That art is now the world's art.
That is now the viewer and theaudience's art To see it however
they see it.
Do not control how they see it.
Let that work be alive.

(56:46):
You're killing the work Ifyou're trying to control how the
audience views it once it's outthere.
Think about that.
The work is alive,ever-changing, ever-growing.
Every single person is going tohave a different view.
Their eyes see things different.
Some people know art, somepeople don't know art.
Some people love art.

(57:06):
Some people look deeply, somelook more shallow, some look
certain things gather in frontof other people's eyes and
observations and totallytransport them into completely
different areas than somewheresomeone else.
If your work does that, that'sthe magic of art.
That's what we want our work todo does that.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
that's the magic of art, that's what we want our
work to do, and it doesn'tmatter what the that is, it
doesn't matter what it does,it's that it is doing something.
That's what really matters.
I'm going to paraphrase a quotefrom earlier in the book that
we talked about in one of theprevious parts.
It was something to the effectof the sooner people understand
your work, the sooner they moveon.
Yeah, right, and it's true.
I mean you think about, thinkabout the way that we as not as

(57:48):
artists, but as viewers of art,as appreciators of other artists
, work.
I do that, I mean and I'm notproud to say it but there's
certainly a lot of times whereI'm like, okay, yep, I get it
All right.
Yeah, yep, I get it All right.

(58:09):
Yeah, you know, um, making workthat is not easy to dismiss, or
move on from making work thatdoes that is alive, that does
affect people in ways that wecouldn't have even predicted or
guessed, that's, that'sincredible.
That's what we're after,absolutely.

Speaker 1 (58:23):
And here's an.
Here's another good one on 59.
This was really big for me as aart connoisseur, somebody who
studies art.
Yeah, what you don't like is asimportant as what you do like.
I love that when you comeacross a piece of art that you
don't like, ask yourself whatwould I like about this work if

(58:44):
I were the kind of person wholiked it?
I think that's a great littlesentence to have in the back of
your head.
Okay, what if I did like this?
What is it about this work thatwould make me like it?
Make a checklist of thequalities.
Try and spot at least two goodqualities along with the bad.
What is the work's approach tocolor, structure, space, style?
Is it craftsman or craftsy?
Is it simplistic?

(59:04):
Is it muddy?
It goes on to add a few morethings.
If you find it didactic, defineexactly what that means to you
and what a work of art should beinstead.
At the very least, this shouldgive you a working list of your
own artistic values.
It'll make your artiststatement much sharper.
I have in my notes here for theartists in my program, find

(59:30):
multiple pieces that you don'tlike.
Share them and talk about them.
When I read this when the bookcame out, every time I went to a
museum it completely changed,because there were certain areas
I skipped to go to other areasBecause I would skip the work I
didn't like.
When I read this I went okaytime to do the opposite.
So I would go to the rooms Ididn't like first and I had

(59:50):
spent an enormous amount of timeasking questions what do I not?
What is it about this?
Why would it be hanging in here?
And if I didn't know, I'd get onmy phone and I'd look up the
artist, I'd look up the periodof time, I'd look up the artist,

(01:00:12):
I'd look up the period of time,I'd look up the historical
elements, all these differentthings, and I might go oh, wow,
and then be totally brought in,or I may go, yep, still don't
like it.
But I think what it did for memore than anything is it made me
look at my work differentlyfrom that point on, because I'm
having these conversations withthings and ideas I don't like,
which is just building mysubconscious and building my
thinking abilities and myknowledge up to a point where I

(01:00:33):
can be wiser with my own workand I can talk about my work
better, cause I'm not justhaving conversations with work I
like.
Now I'm having conversationswith work I don't like, and
that's only increasing myability to talk about art in a
public place or on Instagram orwherever, with more.

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
Does that make sense?
And furthermore, absolutely,and furthermore, your work is
not just being viewed by peoplewho like it.
It is also being viewed and seenby people who don't like it.
That reframe is so powerful.
I is I double underline thatone.
What would I like about thiswork Were I the kind of person

(01:01:12):
that liked it?
That reframe is so, so powerfulbecause, okay, let me assume
the character of somebody otherthan me, somebody who does like
this.
What would I like about it?
What is there to like aboutthis?
But it just forces us to viewit and consume it from a
completely different lens thanyep, nope, yep, nope, yeah, I
mean that sort of like binary no, I'm not going to spend time

(01:01:35):
with this one that really closesus off to all of the questions
and all of the experiences thatyou just that you just
elucidated yeah, 60,.
I love this one.
That you just that you justelucidated yeah, 60.
I love this one.
You must prize radicalvulnerability.
Jerry writes what is that?
It's following your work intothe darkest, most dangerous
corners of your psyche,revealing things about yourself

(01:01:57):
you don't want to reveal, butthat your work requires you to,
and allowing yourself thepotential of disappointment.
We all contradict ourselves.
We contain multitudes.
You must be willing to failflamboyantly, to do things that
seem silly or stupid, even ifthey might put you in the
crosshairs of harsh judgment.
So this goes to that lastportion especially goes to, I

(01:02:22):
think, something that, uh, thatRick talks about a lot Rick
Rubin in the creative act, butjust that it's not our business.
What happens and it's reallythe reverse of what you were
talking about before it's notour business.
What happens, you know, withthe work afterwards it's, it's
really, it's really not up to us, yeah, and so any consideration

(01:02:42):
of potential harsh judgmentreally has to be suspended or
ignored altogether.
That's not my business, that'snot up to me.
What is our responsibility is tobe bold.
It takes boldness, it takescourage to look at things that
we don't like to look at and, ifwe're being honest, that's

(01:03:07):
often where the most interestingthings about ourselves and
potentially things that we cantake into the work, where they
really live.
You know, if all we're going todo is let's just think about
the process of making art andthe act of being in the studio,
art and the act of being in thestudio if all we're going to do
is lean into the things thatwe're comfortable with, that we

(01:03:27):
want to show or want to sharenot the work specifically, but
the things about ourselvesthat's going to be pretty boring
work.
At the very least it's going tobe very repetitive over time.
You know, because the theamount of things that are in
that to re rephrase here thedarkest, most dangerous corners
of our psyche we can peel backthe layers of the onion

(01:03:50):
indefinitely.
You know, if there's one thingthat being middle-aged has
taught me, it's that there's noend to what's in there?
You know, and most of it,especially things that we're not
familiar with or haven't spentmuch time with previously, most
of it is really uncomfortable,awkward.
It feels like we're literallyopening up a vein and saying you

(01:04:11):
know, here it is, but there'sso much value in that.
Back to a previous section, Ithink, from the book art and
therapy.
Again, not art as therapy, butart and therapy.
Right, that's the, that's the,that's the.
You know, we get to do this, we, we have the ability.
I mean, I think about the thingsthat I've learned about myself,

(01:04:33):
most of which have not beensuper fun or exciting to come
face to face with, but thethings that I've learned about
myself since I have beencompletely consumed with this
life of making art, and that isa gift that we get as artists.
To be able to do that, to havethe space to do that.

(01:04:54):
It is something that, of course, you know, anybody in any walk
of life you know could do, butprobably not for six, eight, 10,
15 hours a day like we have.
So I think the question becomesyou know, am I leaning into
that?
You know, am I leaning intowhat's there?
Am I willing to look at thingsthat aren't fun or comfortable

(01:05:15):
to look at, and am I willing tofail flamboyantly?
Am I willing to do things thatseem silly or stupid?
I think the more we can answeryes to that, the more
interesting the work is going tobe, and the faster you know I'm
all about accelerating thisprocess the faster we can get to

(01:05:37):
a place where we're as close aswe can be to making work that's
authentic to us we're as closeas we can be to making work
that's authentic to us.

Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
Yeah, and to be a great artist, you need to be
gathering and we talk about thisas much as you can, always,
always and I love the silly andthe stupid right, Because I'm in
that.
I'm like, is this dumb?
What I'm doing Seems really andI've told you this on the phone
.
I'm like this seems really likecheesy and silly, but it's like
no stop, Get out of my head.
I'm learning, Right, I'mactively learning.

(01:06:16):
I'm trying to get somewhere Now.
Will it stay the way it isright now or will it continue to
evolve?
I don't know.
I'm still working through thatprocess, but if we're not open
and willing to be radicallyvulnerable, like that little
section is there?
Radically vulnerable means opento anything, expressing
anything, allowing.

Speaker 2 (01:06:31):
Yeah, continuing to push forward, even if the answer
to the question of is this dumb?
Is maybe, maybe it might be.
Yeah, it might be, this mightbe silly, this might be dumb.
And I'm going to keep pushingforward anyway because if we
keep and I mean, I think every,every artist listening to this
right now asks that question,either consciously or
subconsciously, on a regularbasis.
So let's just acknowledge that.

(01:06:53):
That's that's part.
Is this dumb?
Does this suck?
Is this bad?
Is this silly?
We're asking that question allthe time.
The the the important thing isto is to recognize when we're
asking that question and keepgoing anyway, again, just having
faith that there's something onthe other side of the courage
required to keep going, asopposed to censoring ourselves

(01:07:14):
and say, oh, yep, oh, this mightbe dumb, let me pull back.
Let me get back to my normalgroove and my typical thing that
I don't know where to go withthat.
I just there's just.
There's something so powerfulabout being willing to ask that
question and continuing in spiteof the fact that the answer

(01:07:35):
might be yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:38):
Well and understanding number 61 here.
The next section helps with allof that knowing that you're
always learning.
If you're able to tell yourselfno matter what I'm doing, I'm
learning.
No matter what I'm doing in thestudio, I'm learning.
At the end of each day, youknow something you didn't know
at the beginning.
If you're working, you'relearning.
And that's the win for the day.

(01:08:00):
That's such a win.

Speaker 2 (01:08:01):
Yeah, that's such a win, that's such a win, that's
such a win.
No-transcript, just thelearning part and just knowing

(01:08:35):
that I'm whatever 1% better inone particular area.
Yeah, that has, I mean, a lotof days.

Speaker 1 (01:08:41):
That has to be enough for us, because if it's not,
we're going to feel like afailure walking out the door a
lot of days if we're notprioritizing learning and
progressing and thenunderstanding whatever you're
creating makes you more than youwere before you made it.
Yep, like that's powerful to me.
That was such an encouragementto me when I first read that,

(01:09:03):
and I take that with me everyday.
I'm more than I was leaving thestudio today than I was before
I entered it, and I want that toecho every part of my life.
That's why I read, that's why Istudy, that's why I love to
travel, that's why I love tryingnew foods and things, because I
want to continue to experiencenew things and be more than I
was every day.

Speaker 2 (01:09:25):
We don't need to know how close we are to know that
we are closer than we werebefore.
Yeah absolutely Better todaythan yesterday.
I think we'll um.
Let's close this out Tie withbe delusional, I love this
section.

Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
You can read the whole thing if you want.

Speaker 2 (01:09:41):
I think I will.
At 3 am.
Demons speak to all of us.
I am old and they still speakto me every night and every day.
They tell you that you're notgood enough, you didn't go to
the right schools, you're stupid, you don't know how to draw,
you don't have enough money, youaren't original, that what you
do doesn't matter and who cares?
And you don't know what you'redoing and that you're just doing

(01:10:10):
this to get attention or money.
I have one solution to turnaway these demons.
After beating yourself up forhalf an hour or so, stop and say
out loud yeah, but I'm afucking genius.
Stop and say out loud yeah, butI'm a fucking genius.
You are too.
You know the rules.
They're your tools.

(01:10:36):
Now use them to go change theworld, get to work.
I mean, delusion is a superpowerful tool, you know.
I mean pretty much everybody wetalk all the time about and we,
we really highlight this in alot of the quotes that we share
from other artists, um and andthings that have been written by
them or about them, but there'salmost always an element of
delusion, and really anybodythat's achieved anything of of

(01:10:57):
real substance, yeah, you haveto be, you know, if you're not
going to be your own biggestcheerleader.
No one else is going to cheerfor you.
You know, we have to be our, wehave to pump ourselves up, we
have to get ourselves in thatplace of like, even if we don't
believe it's true the first 10times we say it like I don't
know about you, ty, but I couldsay that once and immediately my

(01:11:19):
rational conscious mind isgoing to be like well, that's
not true.
You're no genius, you're justanother blank.
That's the first response,probably the second, probably
the 50th.
But those demons get weaker andweaker.
Those voices get quieter andquieter the more we reinforce
positive beliefs, whether theycan be objectively proven as

(01:11:40):
true or not, if those beliefshave value to us.
Proven is true or not, if thosebeliefs have value to us.
I'm onto something here.
I'm doing something here.
Like this matters to me today.
Here we go Like I don't know.
I talk about a lot.
This is kind of one of my, oneof my things, but like having
those, this is a great mantra.
There are plenty of others, butidentifying, you know, for each

(01:12:02):
of us, what are the things thatwe need to continuously be
saying to ourselves andreminding ourselves of that can
be the antidote to the poisonthat is all of the fear based
thinking that we're naturallygoing to fall into.
You know, those demons are goingto come knocking at 3 am or
whatever time, 3 pm, throughoutthe day and the night.
When they come not if, but whenthey come what do we have ready

(01:12:25):
for them?
What's our, what's our defense,you know, and to me, the best
defense against those things ishaving preloaded delusion that
we can tell ourselves and remindourselves no, this is, this is
who the fuck I am, this is whatI'm about, this is what I'm
doing.
And here we go, because withoutthat, we are going to be prey

(01:12:45):
to believing the lies that thosedemons are going to be
whispering in our ear.

Speaker 1 (01:12:50):
Even if we have to sit in front of the mirror and
put on our inner Stuart Smalley.

Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
I knew you were going to say that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:59):
And now I'm visioning the edit.
Tell ourselves.

Speaker 2 (01:13:02):
Because I'm good enough, I'm'm smart enough and
doggone it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
People like me but but really like, yeah, like you
said, right, be delusional.
Yeah, I mean literally, thereare times I go, I have I
seriously stand in the studio.
I go, I will be in the tatesomeday.
The whitney is going to call mesomeday.
Now, the chances of thathappening are slim, but why

(01:13:28):
can't I still believe that thatslim chance is going to happen?
How much do you believe inyourself?
I think that's what he's sayingBelieve in yourself.
And he's even saying it happensto me.
The demons hit me and I'm aPulitzer prize winning art
critic and I still questionthings.
But I'm able to tell myself no,I'm a Pulitzer prize winning
art critic and I still questionthings, but I'm able to tell
myself no, I'm a fucking genius,I can do this.

(01:13:49):
And here's my favorite linethough you know the rules,
they're your tools.
Like that's permission from aPulitzer prize winning art
critic.
Use your stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:14:02):
So two things are true.
We can agree that the chancesof because I've got I've got
some big, bold dreams that Iwouldn't even be comfortable
sharing, you know, on amicrophone and I visualize those
things coming to pass yeah, wecan agree that the things that
you and I are picturing are notstatistically likely, that the
chances are very slim.

(01:14:22):
The second thing we need toacknowledge, and probably the
most important thing in terms ofwhat we do with this, is that
the chances they go up.
I don't know how much, but thechances definitely increase of
those things happening when wedo just believe in ourselves and
when we sell ourselvesconsistently on that dream

(01:14:43):
coming to pass.
It just does.
I mean, call it whatever youwant, but there's power in that,
there's power in intentionaldelusion.

Speaker 1 (01:14:52):
So I think a good closing note is for all you
artists out there believe youcan do it.
Believe that you can do it andget in the studio and make a
shit ton of art, and you knowthe rules.
They're your tools, notsomebody else's tools.
What you want to make and whatyou want to work with, you, work

(01:15:12):
with you, make it and don'tgive up on the ideas that are
driving you to get there.
They're not too silly, they'renot too corny.
They're.
They're your ideas, they'relegitimate.
Explore the hell out of themand get there.
Whatever you're doing, don'tlet anybody tell you that's
cheesy.
Don't listen to the peopletrying to tell you oh, that
won't really be our, no, that'swhat.

(01:15:33):
Just make it and explore it andtake it as far as you can take
it, until the work tells you togo somewhere else.

Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
Well, and that last line get to work.
I mean, of course, cherry wouldend the book get to work, you
big babies get to work.
You know we talked before about.
You know, want it, do it, liveit.
We got no chance of living it.
If we're not doing it, you knowit all come.
All of this comes back to makemore work.
Figure it out.
Maybe the ideas that we'reexploring right now are silly

(01:16:02):
and stupid.
That's possible, yeah, butthere's something on the other
side of that.
We're exploring right now aresilly and stupid.
That's possible, but there'ssomething on the other side of
that.
We're going to learn somethingand we're going to get that much
closer to wherever we areultimately supposed to be, and
that is the game that we'replaying and that's our episode
and that concludes our series onhow to be an artist.
Yes, go buy the book by JerrySaltz.
This is one of those books.
I mean, you know you and I areboth reading and rereading

(01:16:23):
things that we've underlinedmultiple times, but this is one
of those.
It sits on my bookshelf, I pullit out from time to time and
all it takes is a section or twoto be like yep, all right, here
we go.
All right, let's go, absolutely.
Just a reminder let's see acouple housekeeping things that
we oftentimes forget, ty.
So if you're listening to us.
We do put these on YouTube.
Ty does a great job.
I mean, just imagine you knowAl Franken as Stuart Smalley.

(01:16:45):
I know we're going to see aclip of that.
We will see.
Yeah, absolutely.
And the YouTube edit and ifyou're somebody who you know
gives stars or reviews, thathelps the podcast get in front
of more people.

Speaker 1 (01:16:56):
We're not very good at you know.
We're not good at pushingourselves are we.

Speaker 2 (01:17:03):
But you know, hey, if you're somebody that does that,
you know, go ahead.
Thanks for listening.
We'll see you next time on.
Just see ya.