The Art of Breakthrough: A Candid Studio Conversation at Poolhaus

Artistic breakthroughs don't happen by accident. They emerge from dedicated practice, willingness to fail, and persistence through periods of frustration and doubt. But how do you recognize when you're on the cusp of something transformative versus simply taking another step in your creative journey?

Recorded face-to-face at Poolhaus Art Studio in Waco, Texas, this intimate conversation dives deep into the psychology of creative evolution. Both artists share candidly about their current struggles and triumphs, with one revealing a year-long process of private experimentation that's finally beginning to bear fruit. They discuss the delicate balance between methodically refining established techniques and daringly exploring new territories – what one describes as "exploiting the known while exploring the unknown."

The discussion reveals powerful strategies for navigating creative uncertainty, including developing systematic approaches to idea management, embracing the cyclical nature of creative development, and maintaining belief in the process even when progress seems elusive. Both artists emphasize the importance of the mantra "the work is taking me somewhere" as a touchstone during difficult periods.

Today's artists face unique challenges in the social media age, where the pressure to maintain visibility conflicts with the traditional approach of developing work privately before revealing a cohesive body. The conversation explores finding personal balance, using platforms like Instagram as a "visual journal" without feeling obligated to share finished work prematurely. As Simon de Pury noted, "Instagram will have the same impact on the art market as YouTube had on the music industry" – removing gatekeepers and creating direct connections between artists and audiences.

Whether you're struggling to find direction in your practice or contemplating a bold new direction, this episode offers a raw, honest look at the breakthrough process from artists who continue to push their own boundaries. Schedule a studio visit with a fellow artist this week – virtual or in-person – and see where the conversation takes your work.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
All right.
So we are live in, not Waco,texas, this is what do you call
this?
Waco?
It's Woodway, but Waco Listen,no one's got to be selling and
I'm just full of location inTexas.
We are live in Dallas, texas,yes, right.
So I had a reason to come meetin the area and we decided why

(00:31):
not?
Let's hang out?
Let's go Just for two, if youwant.
So it was fun, we can use it inperson.
Yeah, we're going to a snowtown when we get there, yep, and
it's always fun to have studiovisits, absolutely Always.
Is it's absolutely always?
Yeah, it's.
I'm still going to be a littledistracted by looking at a lot
of the work we are talking about.
So we just figured, since we'regoing to be in the same place,

(00:52):
let's talk about just kind ofwhat's complemented for us, what
do we think about in the studio, what different ideas we're
bringing to the work, and justkind of some more present and
current ideas that we've been,yeah, sitting with him and kind
of looking through.
So we both kind of have alittle list going.
We definitely will not get toall of them.
No, there's probably a list ofthem sitting this way, maybe 10.
That's the problem.
Hey, let's put together somenotes on things we should talk

(01:14):
about.
And then we both get a littlevery eager and all of a sudden
there's like four pages of ideas.
But I guess that's good.
I mean mean, we'll get yousomething, yeah, maybe or not,
you know.
So, um, why don't you kick usout?
Sorry, we're gonna kind of gopink almost all back and forth,
but what's the first thing thatyou wanted to kind of get into
today and what are you thinkingabout, buddy?
Yeah, I was, as we werepreparing, uh, I was really

(01:37):
going through everything that'sbeen in my head right for the
last, I guess, since the end oflast year, looking at new ideas
and trying to figure out newexploration and discovering new
things, and where I felt, notthe work currently, but where
the future work, rather thanjust telling me to go chase and

(01:58):
go after.
So, as I've been working sincethe end of last year on ideas
and really keeping them prettyclose to the chest, other than
sharing with a few select peoplein my network of artists, I've
really kept it to me.
So then I I kept having thisidea, as I'm always reading and
studying other artists.

(02:18):
When do you know you have abreakthrough.
Like, when is breakthrough anactual breakthrough?
Because I've had multiple timesover the last year where I
thought I was turning that pageand and then all of a sudden, I
would text you and go I justtook 10 steps back, right, I'm

(02:39):
fighting.
I didn't talk about it lastweek, but I told you I was
fighting.
Well, this is constantly.
Over the last year, it's beenthis process of I think I'm
turning the page, but then allof a sudden I go no, no, no,
that's why did I think to gothat way?
Okay, now let's revert backright and, as we were looking
through 30 pieces last night andthen work and I will, you know
that was the end.
That was the starting point.

(03:00):
Yeah, right here.
And then what it led me to isso far away, yeah, from this.
Yeah, but I had to start thisin order to get to there and I
feel like I just had thebreakthrough.
I really am confident that abreakthrough is starting.
Well, I think that's one of thethings that we should probably

(03:21):
discuss.
You, you referenced it brieflybut, like you know very more
than any breakthroughs happenwithout some breakdowns.
Yeah, at least for now, youknow.
So talk more about.
Like, what were the how did you?
How did you?
What do you do in general?
How do you talk to yourself?
What do you remind yourself of?
Yeah, when we feel like it'sjust breakdown, yeah, I'm gonna

(03:42):
be vague a bit too, because Ihaven't put the work out which
we'll talk about later.
Today too, I'm still holding thework back from really showing
that, other than most thingshere and there.
But the challenge is whenyou're on the long journey, when
you're on that course, juststaying really patient and get

(04:06):
free time which we've talkedabout in the past because you
think something's gonna happenand you feel it going, but
you're still in a process oflearning.
You have not learned yet.
You are currently learning.
Right in learning, you realize,either I didn't understand I
fully thought I understand it atone point or these things

(04:30):
aren't working the way my mindthought they would work tangibly
, material, wise, right.
They're not doing what my mindthought they will do.
I have to work through all thatand screw it up and mess it up
and paying over to figure outhow those relationships will
start to take shape and worktogether.
Yep, and I think that's takenme since last october.

(04:52):
Yeah, really, so we're comingpretty close to a full year of
that, yeah, and not showing anyof it to anybody, which is also
scary, yeah, and fear, and it'sa lot of waiting.
That I'm you know, but does thatanswer the question at all?
Yeah, kind of.
I mean, I think where I wasgoing with that is it is.
You know, I think it'simportant for me, it's great for

(05:13):
anybody to get somebody who'sbeen doing this long.
You have those, you know you'vegot a quite a big success in
part space that every time youwork through an idea that you
are thinking about, that you'redeveloping a body of work, that
you go through a version of thisEvery time.
Yeah, and I mean, there's beensome that ask that the idea
after a year's worth of work wascompletely scrapped and then

(05:39):
takes a total new turn tosomething completely different
that looks nothing like it did,yeah, that entire class year.
You said something interesting.
I'd like to even talk more aboutthe this idea.
It has to.
It started here and I see whereit's evolved too.
Um, and other people will youknow soon enough, but where?

(05:59):
Um, I guess just about that,but a little bit more you know.
So you know, do you do youwrestle with?
Like, how do you, how do youkeep from getting sort of
anchored to the original idea ortrying to sort of on the
original idea, versus letting itdevelop the way that it decides
and wants to evolve?

(06:20):
Well, I think that's going tobe different for every artist.
I'm asking you, right?
Yeah, so for me, because mywork is so story based, yeah,
the idea isn't in the actualwork, so to speak.
It's that idea of the storybehind the work, right?
So I'm doing everything I canto stay as true to the idea of

(06:43):
the story I want to tell throughthe work, yeah, which, as you
can see, has taken manydifferent turns, but I'm keeping
, as much as I can, that essenceof my purpose for that body of
work wrapped up within eachpiece, right, which I think also
gives me the freedom for thatwork to change drastically

(07:06):
within a body, mm-hmm, for pieceone to be so different than
piece 38, I'm on now or 40, inthat body work, right, they're
drastically different, yeah, butI think, as we were talking
last and you're asking me somequestions about, like, oh, but
the line's still there, I'm like, yeah, they're here, just paint
it over, and yeah, but tryingto keep that original essence of
that nostalgic moment.

(07:26):
Yeah, that's spurred on the endyet as far as, yeah, honoring
the original story, then,through my will, we go hard
together.
Yeah, I think I know we're goingto talk about this two of you
but we used the word alchemylast.
Last week you talked about it,and there is alchemy in that too
.
Yeah, because you're takingthat idea of something and

(07:49):
you're trying to manipulate itright, right into something.
What can these things do?
Right, the alchemist, oh what.
We put these two thingstogether.
Well, this dude, can we refinethis more, can we?
Yeah, so that divine spark,that first little thing, the
idea, oh what if we stillkeeping the initial thing, but
then it could take hundreds orthousands of different

(08:10):
variations?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm aquestion for you with that too,
because I know there's a lot ofnew things and I'm sure we're
both going to be pretty vague.
It's big right now becausewe're working out a lot of ideas
, and so we, we want to waituntil we're fully confident
before we really really throwthem out there too.
But we're all, uh, into theaudience you must be holding
thousand.
We're just going to go formostly, okay, mostly.

(08:32):
If I can get some, mostlyconfident we'll talk about it
later too.
But thinking about breakthroughsand thinking about just that
full idea, how is thatrepresented in your head as
you're moving through material,the new material and new ways to
manipulate those materials?

(08:53):
And you know, I've seen youhave breakthroughs from original
ideas to where you are now.
I've seen major breakthroughsand it's been really fun to
watch.
Like, how does that play inyour head?
Especially thinking aboutexploration and discovery and
all that yeah, I think that'ssomething I've been thinking
about a lot lately is just thebenefits of having a methodical

(09:17):
approach.
So I think about, early on, itwas all just sort of, you know,
unbridled experimentationwithout any real plane or some
system around how I wasapproaching it.
That's exactly what I needed tobe doing during that time.
And I think, as I've begun tomature, you know, as an artist,

(09:38):
it's really, you know, I spend alot more time thinking about
that idea of like, all right,when is the time to explore and
when is the time to exploit?
And it's an idea I've beenreading about in this book that
I've referenced a couple timesin previous podcasts.
But this book called theExplorer's Chain, I have a
thought to the same and he talksabout this whole.
Let me make sure you're ready.

(09:59):
The explorer, exploit dilemma.
So he defines it as soexploration, variation,
risk-taking, experimentation,play, flexibility, discovery,
innovation.
This book isn't meant forartists, but it could be.
Yeah, okay, exploitationencompasses refinement, choice,

(10:23):
production, efficiency,selection, implementation and
execution.
He goes on to write you canexploit the knowledge and
resources you already have, oryou can explore in search of a
moment that is uncertain butmight turn out to be better.
And so I like to read, you know, obviously mostly in the arts

(10:46):
space now, but I'm always, as wedo as artists, kind of making
these connections between whatI'm absorbing and how it's going
to play out in work.
So this idea of you know whatI've been working towards is I'm
exploring the unknown whileexploiting the known.
Yeah, which is what we're doing, 100% yeah, and the way that

(11:09):
I've been approaching that ismuch more systematic than before
in terms of just like.
I believe that, like SOEs, youknow, just a standard operator
here is how I approach this.
That equals to me, meaccelerated intention groups,
because in the absence of asystem to sort of collect these

(11:31):
ideas, I have and I don't knowabout it.
I think I can safely say you'vealmost came up as well, like if
all I did was execute on theideas that I have in journals,
in my head, in differentdocuments.
It would take me 10 or 11 timesyeah, and that's assuming
nothing new right, which it doesthe first you know day, what

(11:51):
time, yeah.
So that's kind of the peoplethink about it.
But I think for me it's like ifI can have a system in place,
if I can create and follow thesesort of rules basically, and
then iterate, right.
So one of the things I've beenmuch more intentional about is
how do I sort of gather theideas that you know flow through
the antenna, and one of thethings I've started doing

(12:13):
recently instead of I still doit all as well, but I'm such an
external processor in how I sortof like just work through
information I started usingvoice and gas, you know, and
that became a really good wayfor me to also emotionally
decompress.
When driving from the studio,your commute is about six steps

(12:36):
Again, about a 13-minute drivefrom the studio back to the
house, and so just hitting voice, hitting record, and as I
listened back to some of those,a lot of them were just, you
know me, pump my head.
Good day.
Here's what we got.
You know what I mean.
Just like trying to feel goodabout having accomplished
something, but also doing likestudio walkthroughs of, like all
my babies that are you know allthe seven or whatever 17 or 27

(13:02):
crying babies that are all juststraight out of the house and
just kind of like like, okay,this could go with, that, this
could and just walking andtalking and then from there
taking those brain dumps andturning them into, categorizing
them into okay, is thisspecifically referencing work in
progress?
Is this just a new idea or anew thing?
Yeah, is this a new process orexperiment?

(13:24):
And try, is this a task,process or experiment?
I need to try.
Is this a task, a new to-dolist?
But it's sort of like makingsense of the mess that lies in
my mind and then converting itinto a digital document that
will either go into my master,new body and work document and
then the tasks and interviewsget transferred into sheets.

(13:45):
This is just when I said, yeah,this is not okay, do this, but
it's just what works for me.
And so with, like, the masterdocument, especially with this
new body of work, I've gotdeclarations, decisions,
decisions I've made descriptions, process experiments, tests
needed.
You know new skills that Irequire.
I'm taking a welding courseright now because I need to

(14:06):
learn how to weld to do what I,what I'm young with sculpture
and then figure out you knowwhat tools do I need to buy and
how much we're doing to still beable to do that.
In my estimate on this entirething, you know new setup, but
it's it's all based around thatidea of like, all right, I want
to exploit what I know.
Back to that definition of I'llrefine and choose, produce, be

(14:30):
efficient, select, implement andexecute based on the known,
while still searching variation,risk and experimentation play,
like both of those things.
Right, you know?
And I found that if I'm toorigid with hey, this is the plan
to your filming about like thisis the original idea.
I just want to.
I found that if I'm too rigidwith hey, this is the plan to
your point about like this isthe original idea.
I just want to see this through.
If I'm too rigid with that,then I'm not leaving space, you

(14:52):
know, to follow the beautifulovertributaries of rigor and see
where they might lead.
If I'm too flexible, then Icompletely can lose.
We can completely lose sight ofthe original, you know, plan or
idea and and the loose side ofthe essence of its origin symbol
.
I think for me it's been justkind of really fighting the
battles between those two things.
I wonder, and I think I Istarted really thinking about

(15:17):
this because of old books thatI'm reading about artists who
are nasty and the break, thosebreakthrough balance.
So you know, they go fromsomething that they've been
doing for years and all of asudden it's like that aha moment
.
Yeah, you know reading aboutellsworth kelly having his
moments like that.
We about san francis, the joemitchell, all these artists like

(15:38):
that were having those moments.
I've tried to make that be in myforeconscious way, more that
idea of what.
I think it's just thatexpectation, having an
expectation that breakthroughwill come with time.
Yeah, rather than years ago, Ijust make work and really get

(16:00):
frustrated when things aren'tworking the way I want them to
and things aren't turning outthe way I would like and being
embarrassed or you know aboutwhat this looks like Shit.
Where am I going?
Instead, I'm going this isleading to a breakthrough.
All the shitty work, yeah, allthe stuff that gets covered up,

(16:21):
all the stuff that never needs astudio, all the stuff that
didn't sell.
That's leading into thebreakthrough, right?
If I didn't make it, yeah, thenI'm really far away, yeah, from
the possibility of a majorbreakthrough.
Yeah, what does that look like?
I don't know, I don't know.
I think I've had littlesnippets of it, like little mini

(16:43):
breakthroughs.
But I just wonder because, youknow, I look at some of my
favorite artists out there todayand creating art and I'm
looking at their work and I'mgoing.
10 years ago that work wasreally weak, yeah, it wasn't
strong when you were young, youknow.
And then all of a sudden,there's this moment where you're
like, how in the world did Iliterally go from that to that?

(17:08):
How in the world to rashidjohnson, go from there to there,
right, and as for some people,it's place and network right and
and they get a moment thathappens.
For others, it's head down,just work, work, work, work,

(17:28):
work, and then they're justmassive.
They have this breakthrough andthings happen.
I'm confusing two points.
I shouldn't have gone therewith network and stuff, because
that's more career breakthroughthan the work breakthrough.
But, yeah, so for me, I'mtrying to make it in my head to
be thinking about more, becausethat also makes me work a little

(17:49):
bit longer.
Sometimes, yeah, and put alittle bit more.
Or we all do this, I know youall probably do it out there too
, you start to get low onmaterials and we want to
conserve a little bit.
Or you're like, oh, if I ruinthis canvas right now, I'm not
gonna be able to buy canvas fora little while longer.
Yeah, so because I'm not reallypushing my work right now, I'm

(18:11):
not selling work right nowbecause I'm in this holding.
So for me it's like I don'treally want to go spend more
money on more material.
So let's make sure thesecanvases work out.
But if I have break likebreakthroughs, keep just ruining
it, just push through it, justpaint over it.
Like and it's what I'm hearingis the belief that the
breakthroughs will come.
Yes, that keeps you fromfalling in the track of just

(18:35):
sort of reverting by playing itsafe.
Playing it safe, I don't wantto play it safe.
Yeah, that's really been one ofmy.
I want to play it safe and takethese risks.
I want to explore.
And if you're exploring, you'renot playing safe.
Well, it's funny you say that Idon't know when I sort of made
this decision, but, but I made avery distinct choice at one

(18:57):
point, that that I've stuck with, which is I'm always going to
prioritize, prioritize, pushingthe work forward over
potentially ruining what's infront of me.
Yes, and realizing that ruiningwhat's in front of me may be a
full circle there to actuallypush the work forward.
You know, yeah, and that goesback to the whole idea of you

(19:20):
know, nothing is precious.
I mean, a lot of things arevery, the process is precious,
the practice is precious.
I mean, a lot of things arevery, the process is precious,
the practice is precious.
But what?
This piece in front of me, if Itreat it like, oh, I don't want
to ruin it, the, the fear andthe reservation, and that that
just causes me to pull back,absolutely place it and place it
and your best work's not goingto come out.

(19:42):
So jacqueline avoids that.
So she has a quote that saystake risks, experiment and
always stay out of your comfortzone.
It will take you places.
Yeah, I think that takingplaces is a combo of taking
places with your work.
It will take you places in theart world.
Yeah, the artists who arewilling to be risky and stay out

(20:04):
of that comfort zone and screwa whole lot of stuff up, and
they're on the bookshelf.
They have had majorbreakthroughs, yeah, because
they're not playing their trend.
They're not playing to whatjust came before last year, what
they're like.
I mean rasheed's, johnson,rasheed shell, the guggenheim
that's not a traditional art.
Show you, there's a lot ofdifferent risky things happening

(20:29):
in all of the work, frompaintings, sculptures to natural
plant life elements and things.
Right, that's not playing itsafe.
Right, still to do with plants,like that's not playing it safe
.
It took him places in his workbecause I can guarantee going
with all and I remember hisfirst, uh, natural, like plant

(20:52):
installations and things theywere smaller, they were square,
almost like little room typethings and stuff that led him to
now these major you know majorinstallations and it's like it
took him places in his work thataffected the paintings, that
affected the sculptures, thataffected every little thing he
has hands on, took him places inthe work.
And then it took him places inthe art world.

(21:12):
Right, not plain and safe, yeah,but it started to work, started
to work, yeah, yeah, I meanI've been so far out of my
comfort zone, yeah, with thingsthat I'm doing, trying to play
the fibers and doing all thesedifferent things, right, and
that it's so far right.
It feels really weird, yeah, itfeels really really awkward,

(21:34):
yeah, and I keep going, keepgoing, keep calling myself, just
keep going.
That's the.
That, to me, is the benefit ofmaking decisions from from a
place of intention and thensticking with those choices.
For example, you know, I made achoice, um, and really I was
wrestling with it, we weretalking about it, you know, when

(21:55):
we were together in montana.
How long was that?
A month and a half ago, yeah,and um, playing rides are are
important for this one.
Always, I have a rule I do notwatch movies on the plane and
parties are full because there'ssomething about my idea.
Like I'm just like boom, like Ijust get there.
There's nowhere for me to go,there's very low for me to be
distracted by, and so, you know,I wrote, after some journaling

(22:18):
that I've done on the tree and Ijust said I'm I'm all in on
sculpture.
That's, this is all I'm doing,you know, for this period of
time.
And boy, I mean the number oflogistical challenges around.
Okay, well, workingthree-dimensional, how am I
going to figure out how to?
I mean just basic things that I, even even just a month late,

(22:40):
like I now I have to add it in.
But as I was just gettingstarted, like, how do I hold
this up and figure out how thiswon't interact with, with the
elements, you know, and goingthrough different iterations of
okay, is it wood, is it screw,is it glue, is it resin?
Elements you know, and goingthrough different iterations of
okay, is it wood, is it screw,is it glue, is it resin, is it?
You know, how do I even justget these to stand up right so
that they can, you know,interact with one another?

(23:01):
But it's all of those thingsthat are required, and if I
hadn't made that decision on thefront end, I'm fairly certain
that I would have probablydefaulted to what I was more
comfortable with, because, okay,right, and all this exists on a
wall, this is, this is in myworld.
I was something open, what todo, yeah, but you're talking

(23:22):
about alchemy earlier and that'sanother, another thing.
This is kind of a process whenyou did, but I was just really
going and thinking about likeone of the things from our
Leonardo Drew conversation wherehe talked about cannibalizing,
you know, from existing elements.
I've really been reflecting onthe whole idea of you know the
work, sort of you know, feedingon itself and off of itself, and

(23:45):
so, as I've been thinking aboutdifferent things, especially
from a three-dimensionalperspective, this idea of
cyclical counterbalanceinitiative, so this would be
just my version of appliedalchemy.
So one thing I realized this isone of those just odd moments I
was like, okay, anything canbecome, I can cast anything

(24:07):
within 2-0.
Not actual alchemy, I'm notturning something, but you know.
And so really diving my processwas in understanding how to use
petrol, sand, right for sandcasting, but realizing, okay, I
can turn metal into metal, I canturn resin into metal, I can

(24:28):
turn wood into metal, I can turncore plastic, all of it.
And then really diving in myprocess for that, the other part
that I did, and all the devilworks about lately, is deep cast
resin.
It's a, it's called ice, itlooks like ice, that's the end
product, so it's called waste.
Um, but anything didn't come,nice, you know.
So that's more figuring out.
Right, how do I make silicone?
You know, how do I, how do Imake these molds?

(24:50):
But realizing that I can thenten elements and repurpose them,
rarely in their exact form, butportions of it, you know, but
that was just such a a big, abig, just lightning bolt moment
for me, which is pretty obviouswhen I say that I think about it
.
But then taking it from theidea to the tactical logic, how

(25:12):
do I do this?
Okay, what do I need to do interms of myself?
What spaces do I need to beable to do those things?
Yeah, so, with a majorcommitment to shifting.
We're both kind of in thismoment, currently in different
ways as you're making this shiftto currently just focusing on

(25:39):
sculpture, learning, exploring,taking all your materials, all
the different things that youjust talked about, from your ice
to your, uh, petra bond, petrabond, yes, to all the different
things you're playing with,turning into combining, forming,
casting, not casting, right,what is your mind?

(26:06):
Sex, we kind of shared minealready.
Well, how has your mindset been?
As far as like, when will Iknow I'm ready?
When will I know I havesomething?
Wait while I get to the pointwhere I'm like now I really know
where to go.
Yeah, has there been fear there?
Oh, yeah, yeah, talk, talkabout that.

(26:27):
I mean, you know I just started.
I completed my first couplesculptures we talked last
episode about.
You know I stopped in thosedeadlines.
I have one, maybe, whateverepisode two ago and I sat there
before I came down here.
I have three down.
I got two or three, you know,complete.
But even just yesterday, youknow, before I hopped on a plane

(26:48):
, yesterday was my photo day.
I take photos and take somevideos of these and it's a very,
it's a very bold feeling evenfor me to send to you and then
have you reply to that text andjust imagine that you think
they're shit.
Yeah, but you know, I meanthat's a.

(27:08):
So there's a vulnerability there, you know, and I think it comes
down to confidence in do I likethis?
Do I I mean, at the end of theday, we're all making a work for
ourselves, first and foremost,right, I meanas podcast, and she
said, you know, ultimately I'mparaphrasing, of course but, um,
ultimately, you know, asartists, we're making work for

(27:35):
ourselves and we don't knowwhat's going to see one day on
the board, if anyone else is onit or, if you want, they're
going to say about it, and sojust kind of using that as a
governing principle for myself,because it is very emotional.
It's very emotional to you know, wander life.
Is this the page like I want?
Am I on?
I'm on something on somethinglike is this a breakthrough or

(27:58):
is this just a necessary step toget to a point where am I close
?
Am I, you know, where am I outof the map?
You know is a very real, youknow, just question that, that
that comes to my mind.
So it comes back to just that,that belief of all right.
So for these first couplemeetings I was like I like this,
I like having them around, yeah, you know, yeah, they say to me

(28:21):
what I was trying to say to youand that's that's enough from,
yeah, whether anything happenswith them.
You know, and it's taking me awhile to get to that place.
You know, I know earlier on forme a while to get to that place
.
You know, I know earlier on,for me for sure, I was almost
completely dependent on external, you know, validation and
validation.
You say like oh yeah, that'sgood, okay, cool, this is good.

(28:41):
Yeah, that points from all over.
We have other people, otheropinions.
Oh, okay, all right, good Now.
No, it art good now.
No, it's good, it's good, but Ilike, I like, I like where it's
going.
And also just back to your ideaof just the belief of like this
is just a step.
There's, there's, there's morecoming.
You know this is just anecessary step to get to.

(29:03):
You know that's coming in and Iam I'm so fired up about what's
going on.
I want every artist that'slistening right now to just go
write this down when you gethome or if you stop, pull the
car over If you're driving, ifyou're in the studio.
Just write this down the workis taking me somewhere.

(29:23):
I want you all to be soconfident that even in the work
that you're hating right now istaking you somewhere.
Just know that.
I know we all are doubting somany things in the studio that
we're doing every day, every day.
And for the younger artists outthere younger, not an age, but
an artwork that don't have agallery or you're not workers,

(29:48):
just don't worry about thatstuff.
Just keep working on the workand know the work is taking you
somewhere.
If you're dedicated and you'reworking and you're creating, the
work is going to get somewhere.
It will get there.
And this is, let me asksomething yeah, yeah, don't take
our word for it.
Go to the source.

(30:09):
Yeah, go to every.
I mean it does get an amazingcollection of biographies,
autobiographies.
Go to the source, I mean, go tothe greatest and, just like you
, will not find a single.
Maybe I'm wrong about this, butI don't think you've read the
same story I haven't read it yetwhen there's at least one, if

(30:33):
one, if not multiple, examplesof those.
What am I doing?
You know?
Moments or those, those genesispieces that maybe are or are
not what we think that would bethat ultimately become, you know
what they are ultimately knownfor?
Yeah, yeah, it just, it takestime and I know it here's.
I'm gonna.
I want to pose this as aquestion.
Uh, let me see if I'm gonnaread this quote first and then
pose the question.
Yeah, I want to read this quotefirst because it talks about

(30:53):
everything you just said.
This is from the artist TaliLennox Don't rush to get your
workout.
It takes time to achievequality and find your truth.
Welcome in patience andperseverance over the seduction
of the media graphic.
Yeah, and my question that Iwant to ask and I'm asking

(31:16):
myself this currently right now,as the art world is changing,
which it's always going tochange it's a never-evolving
amoeba and with so much moreonline accessibility, acceptance
, the way that Instagram hasexploded as an artist platform,
where we know there's a brandnew generation of art lovers and

(31:39):
collectors that see instagramas their gallery, as their go-to
guide to find new artists andcurators.
The art world is doing the samething on Instagram.
So I've been asking thisquestion lately, like releasing

(31:59):
work.
Today, with Instagram and socialmedia, pressure looks totally
different than it did 10 yearsago.
How long should we wait torelease our work?
Should we just share it in theprocess, you know, or should we
hold back and wait until we'refully confident and ready?

(32:21):
Now, years ago, I don't have ananswer, I'm just.
I think this is a greatconversation.
Years ago, the artists wouldwait, build up, release the work
to their galleries, to theircurators, to their dealers, to
go here's 25 paintings from thisfunny work, maybe it's a show,
maybe they're whatever's sellingthat body work.

(32:42):
And it was like here it all is.
It wasn't like here's onepainting, here's a second
painting, but two months laterit was like here's all Mm-hmm.
The pressure for us today is Ineed the algorithm to keep
finding me, because that's whereI'm finding my audience outside

(33:05):
of who already follows mecurators, gallerists may
discover me.
So should I share?
But if you're not fullyconfident in your work, yeah,
shouldn't really share it,because that immediate
gratification could stall what'scoming down the road.
Yeah, if somebody, if you getor lack thereof, lack thereof
Right Will make you feel likeyou're not on the right track.

(33:27):
So I've really just been kindof talking to myself about it.
Things have changed, yeah,things are changing and evolving
.
So there are going to be thingsthat are going to be different
and more accepted, and fine,yeah, whatever, things are
changing and evolving, so thereare going to be things that are
going to be different and moreaccepted, and fine, yeah,
whatever, I still think.
For me, I don't want to reallyreally show until I'm absolutely
confident in the work, in theidea.

(33:49):
Now, I know all of my work I'mnot going to be happy with.
That doesn't mean I didn'tfully execute the idea in it,
right.
Right, because I have pieces Ilove that nobody looks like.
I have pieces that I don't likeas much that people absolutely
love, right.
But if I really feel like Ifound my truth in that work and
it's really true to the idea,yeah, if there were some weaker

(34:10):
elements in it that I didn'treally like, but yet it got the
right court of approval.
You know from my artist peers,from my artist network, that I
might be missing something, butit's in the right.
Well, I think what you'retalking I mean the timing is
everything so you're discussingis you know the pieces that

(34:30):
you're talking about and youknow that you're confident in
enough that it's true to you andwork, but that you don't love
as much as you know these overhere, let's you're still putting
that you're still because whoare you?
We talk all the time right onceyou're, once it's out the world
, it's not ours, you know, andwho are you to rob somebody?

(34:51):
You know the experience ofreally enjoying something, um,
that that you maybe don't loveas much.
I mean, it's not the firstthing that you had.
Yeah, hopefully that we'll openthe mansion when we're home,
but I think the timing, reallythat's really what it comes down
to.
I don't know if I'm asking adifferent question originally
than anyone, but it's like Ithink it's worth noting that, as

(35:13):
far as whatever posting thingsor sharing things publicly is
concerned, that when we appearto be most productive, it's
actually in my face, in years aswell, it's it's months.
It's a long time after theaudience was actually made, you
know.
And so to your question, like Ithink a lot about.
I've just made peace with, Imean, my presence, you know,

(35:35):
online, or how visible I'm goingto be with what sharon are
doing is just it's going to be.
With what she and I are doingis just it's going to be sick of
and just being okay with that,right like I'm.
There was a time when I wasplaying that game of posting
every day, and I think that thatwas mostly unhealthy.
The one utility of that for mewas that it definitely kept me

(35:56):
productive.
Yeah, so that that again, thatwas a season for me.
That has since passed and I'mnot going to longer feel like I
worked for fucking instant.
Yeah, I mean, like, if I havesomething that I'm excited to
share, as we're sharing rocking,yeah, and until it's ready,
it's not ready.
The other thing, I mean not tomake this an instagram

(36:17):
conversation, but the other part, I want to a little bit, though
.
Okay, because I know that's.
I know foreign artistslistening yeah, that's a big
thing.
That's all of our heads.
So here's a little shit.
I mean and I think this is truefor you as well I mean the work
that I'm confident in I'm goingto post that.
You know, two, three, two,three, four times.
It's going to cost them a year,right, yeah, realizing that,

(36:40):
especially with the way thealgorithm is not really seeing
it, there's a really good chancethat only a small percent of
people who would actually enjoyseeing it see it, actually see
it.
Right, and so it's always.
There's no better test.
I mean, we've actually done thiswith reposting the episode that
we're going a couple years agoand people that we know well,
yeah, who listen to you know andget most, or if not every

(37:02):
episode, you're like, hey, thatnew episode was great.
More like, I think, actuallyevery artist, yeah, which may
not say enough for us, theredundancy of our time, but
we're only excited, you know.
So, just, I mean, I thinkthat's that's part of it.
I mean, if there's because thatyou know what's happening, I'm,
you know.
So just, I mean, I think that'sthat's part of it.
I mean, if there's because thatyou know it's happening, I'm,
you know you already feel weirdabout it and it's just something

(37:24):
to what a steady stomach is,you know.
But if I've been again, like Isaid, it's, it's all what, who
you move.
You know what are we lookingfor?
You know, it's a tool, it's ause, it's a very useful one to
leverage properly, but I meanfor me, if I'm thinking about
the work through the lens ofhow's this going to perform or

(37:46):
you know, whatever I've alreadyalready lost.
Well and for, for all youartists out there, your
instagram page unless you'reexploding in ring galleries and
like it should be a germ.
Yeah, it should be a visualgerm should be your approach.
The delphian gallery book ishas fantastic advice on that,

(38:06):
and I would say make it a visualgerm.
Yeah, you don't.
Oh, and I write.
I'm not showing finished piecesright now, but I'm giving hints
.
Yeah, like I'm updatingwhoever's watching, which I know
there are art world peoplewatching.
Yeah, may not be following me,but I know they're watching
because I did make comments orI've seen them like something,

(38:27):
yeah, and so I want to make surethat I'm still keeping them
updated on progress.
So it may be close to littleshots of the yarn fiber on
things.
It may be, you know, a wide shotat me in the studio, but I'm
you need to be showing thatyou're working and that your

(38:48):
work is moving, it's growing,it's you're creating constantly.
I'm not seeing posts every day.
You can't.
If you want, yeah, but that's,it's exhausting.
You know I've been ig exhausted, you know.
You know it.
Honestly, I fear too, because Iknow people are going to
instagram and I know I don'twant posts like I used to.
I don't want to spend the timeanymore, so I'm kind of tired of

(39:09):
it, yeah, and, but it is myvisual joe.
I need to be updating.
I've made great friends frominstagram and mentees and
artists that I work with andnetwork with around the globe.
So I would say don't put allyour stock into it, as you need
to be spending a ton of time,but keep it updated regularly,

(39:29):
talk about your work and yourprogress and things that you're
doing and trying, and if youdon't want to show your work,
just show glimpses of you in thestudio working, yeah, and then,
when the work is, when you'reconfident, now put that painting
, now put that sculpture up, orthat drawing or that piece up,
and then go back to the visualjournal and then put a piece up.
I've been using this reallyisn't like tactical or probably

(39:52):
even smart, but I've just beenusing stories as my sort of
ongoing journal.
Yes, almost like a new story.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, ifyou can't have that, um, there's
just one little, but it's notthis, this, you know, whatever,
and I do actually enjoy doingthat to start to finish.
You know, that's something thatI enjoy.
Um, and and and those actuallydo tend to, you know, and it's

(40:18):
actually I find it to be healthyfor me as well.
I did this on the plane, um,just looking back through, you
know, all the random clips thatI've collected, like, oh yeah,
it actually for me it is, it isfulfilling, it's a good reminder
.
Like you know, I have atendency to be very, very hard
on myself and to, and that'sanother benefit with this sort
of like you know brain, you knowI have a tendency to be very

(40:39):
hard on myself and to, andthat's another benefit with this
sort of like you know brain,you know I had hard dunk, you
know that I do, you know, on thedrop home.
So, oh, actually, as I kind ofjust go through like the mental
list of, okay, we'll do this,we'll do that, we'll do that.
And I said, because I'm sittingin the creative directorate of
the organization, yeah, oh,senior creative director in the

(41:04):
years, yeah, oh, yeah, you knowpart of you know everything, and
I can count, following myvarious personalities, that I've
taken in the studio as well.
But it's just nice to be ableto say, just look back through
the photos and say, well, yeah,I forgot about those two days
that I totally got, you know,detoured, you know in my mind,
right, and that's that's why Iget stuck.
Actually, this is, it's goodthat I'm thinking this now.
That's why I get stuck is so I,this is the will be the
downside of having a plus twoside.
I get two.

(41:25):
Well, no, I get two, for thisis what I'm trying to be a
competition in this right.
So after that, explore, exploit, like, okay, I'm going to
exploit whatever I'm going toexecute, let's say, in sports
kind of word of work, I'm goingto execute on these ideas and on
this plan with intention.
And then something sparks andI'm like, all right, I gotta, I

(41:47):
gotta do it, I gotta do it rightnow, while it's fresh, yeah,
and so the day ends.
I look back my my plan.
Going into the day I did one ofthe seven things that I had on
my list.
But when I go back to thosephotos and videos just little,
little things about most thingscaptured for myself, just a log
I'm like, oh, okay, cool, yeah,I did push these pieces forward

(42:08):
that I was hoping to get down bynext day.
Yeah, but that's valuable,that's a valuable detour that
will pay down, as in the future.
And I think for me, one thingthat's really reinforced that
belief that the Bracer is comingis by going back and seeing
like, oh wait, this is.
I used an element in thesculpture recently and I could

(42:31):
do whatever and go into detailsof my crossface.
But I make a lot of different.
Just call them elements orartifacts, sometimes with an
intention that's what they'regoing of the Microsoft.
But I make a lot of differentjust call them elements or
artifacts, sometimes with theattention of what they're gonna
be used for.
But I'll usually make whateverseven versions of something that
I'm gonna use one on for thisparticular piece and the rest
just gets stored in the evergrowing library of potential

(42:53):
players that can get a role inthe future, play right.
And so for me to circle backwas oh, this is something that's
been waiting for us, this is a,this is the great actor who's
been waiting for the chance toreally shine, and I now have a
perfect part for them in thisplane.
That wasn't even written, yeah,right, when we were first.

(43:13):
Today, I think I just came upwith the definition for you as
an artist.
Great, I'm ready.
I think you're an abstractarchaeologist.
I like that Because you'reworking in abstracts, but I do
really see you as anarchaeologist, an alchemist

(43:35):
archaeologist like nix.
Right, because you'reconstantly uncovering and
basically digging up things.
Yeah, right, so like creatingyour artifacts, but then I'll
see you have them all on thetable the way an archaeologist
would literally sift through thesand and pull all the pieces

(43:56):
out to create the skeleton forthe dinosaur buildings they
found or whatever, it is right.
And then you're thinkingthrough how to piece all that
together, to take what wasburied, discarded or whatever,
and then piece it together intosomething that goes into a space
, I think.
I think what archaeologistswould consider together and take

(44:16):
it to the Smithsonian orNatural Science Museum or
whatever.
So I don't know.
It just popped in my head.
I like that a lot.
I think about exclamating yeah,it's funny discovering things.
I think that's a very hardstatement.
Exclamating it is yeah, but youknow it's funny.
It is a lot like that whereit's like okay, we've got this
femur bone chamber bung and themoment when I've whatever, the

(44:44):
bung that every day again, yeah,it's like when I find the you
know I can look at, because I do.
I absolutely do that.
Actually, I don't really sharea lot of studio shots, but right
now the studio is take nothinga lot of tables and tables and
all my little.
It's actually back to mysystematic approach.
I finally this this is whereI've got a set of days,
sometimes weeks, since I'm like,alright, I've got all of these
things laying around, how do Isort them out, sort the

(45:05):
categories?
Then I've got a bunch ofdifferent slides in the shell.
I pull a slide I bet that wouldand send them next week.
I'm going to discuss the otherone or two.
But the excitement, the chargethat I get when two completely
disparate elements just worktogether like they were made for

(45:25):
each other.
We talk about the addictivenature of this process.
That's what I'm talking about.
Yeah, I had an addictive momentthe other day and then I just
went crazy on multiple pieceswith that moment.
Yeah, right, and I was like Idon't care if these don't work
in any of these.
Yeah, it worked in these two,so I need to keep rolling.

(45:47):
It's the outfits.
And then I'm like, no, no,that's not working at all.
It worked for those.
That's not working.
There's something to be saidfor that.
It was the whole like, like youknow, when all you have is an
hour, everything looks like anail yeah, and if it works 10%
of the time, yeah, then it worksgood good times.

(46:08):
There's a quote by the mostpeople know, signing the curry,
the auctioneer, and if you're inthe art world or around there,
you've seen that in every artdocumentary in the last 30 years
I don't know 40.
But he says Instagram will havethe same impact on the art
market as YouTube have on themusic industry.
The online market is here tostay.

(46:30):
I'm assuming that was probably10 years ago ago, and that's.
I keep reading quotes like thatfrom art world people.
So that makes me always askmyself, though, because we want
to be ahead of things as artists, so we don't want to get behind
things as hard, so we want tostay on top of, and kind of a

(46:51):
hand up, where things are going,especially for us, that aren't
in new york, aren't in la berlin, major art cities around the
world.
If you're not in that cityaround everything, we're all
kind of still.
We're all kind of playingcatch-up or trying to get to.
So I think it was kennyschachter that said always read,

(47:13):
that's how I stay on top andahead of things.
I'm always always reading.
I think he said I'm readingseven books at a time,
constantly.
And then he said, uh, read artjournalcom, because the second
update, but that's how he staysahead and stays on.
Oh, instagram, okay, we need toknow here.
But I did that years ago.
I was like this is right.

(47:34):
When instagram started right, Italked about on the podcast.
Before I watched, watchedHeather Day explode from
Instagram, I was like I'mcopying everything she's doing
with what she's doing on herplatform.
Yeah, this I got to go.
So it's like reading, studying,staying ahead, so you kind of
can go.
Oh, I don't have to put ketchup.
Yeah, so it's like when youread, they are an auctioneer

(47:55):
saying Instagram will be whatYouTube did for the music
industry, which is taking anindependent musician in their
room with a guitar and turningthem into an international
superstar.
He's saying it is giving theartist the ability to have a
major platform, to have a majorplatform.

(48:19):
20 years ago there was no majorplatform if you weren't in New
York or LA or Chicago or Miamias an artist and in the scene
getting your work in front ofpeople.
Right, it was.
You're moving to one of thoseplaces or kind of staying.
So it's giving that abilityyeah, if you do it well, yeah,
and you learn and you do it, youcan have an impact that could

(48:44):
get you somewhere.
Well, it's removing we'veremoved the middleman, yeah, yep
, which is great.
If you're doing the workyourself, yeah, right, I mean,
if you're not, so the the pointis, if you're not putting it out
there, then then you are stilldependent upon the, you know,

(49:04):
antiquated model of just hopingthat's something magical.
It's a piece of, yeah, exactly,but it's a great piece.
Your, your youtube, uh, thatyoutube reference.
It's interesting, I don't knowwhy this just popped in mind.
Um, uh, that, okay, go video.
Yep, right from this, probably15 years ago, absolutely that.
But where they did it'sincredibly creative, with the

(49:25):
among treadmills, yes, yeah, andthey did all themselves, yeah,
just diy.
And it was not just about themusic but the presentation of
what they were doing.
Yeah, it was so unique and sofresh that they became
undeniable and got out of theirwhole, you know, whatever that's
the word, but I'm sure we got alot more opportunity, way more

(49:48):
visibility, because, you know,they put it out first.
Yeah, you know, I mean, we'rejust, you know, a couple of
people in the studio with thecamera, the microphone, yeah,
putting it up there and see whathappens.
Yeah, exactly, we haven'tgotten anybody to have
discovered us and taken us intoa radio station and given us,
you know, a 90 minutes log.
No, we're just doing it.
Well, it's the Steve Martinquote.

(50:12):
Yeah, be so good that the crowdcan't bore you.
Right, be so good that thecrowd can't bore you.
Be so good that they find you.
So we have that ability today,which didn't exist for history,
of an audience finding yourather than you always having to

(50:32):
go to an audience.
And that's magic.
It really is an incrediblething, but it takes time and it
takes effort, and that's thehard really is an incredible
thing, but it takes time, youknow, and it takes effort, and
that's the hard part.
And there's, we can line up mygary.
This won't get us to tell, yes,but I mean what's wrong?
Yeah, it's on the screen, butbut there is a, you know there's
.
There's a I don't say learningcurve, there's a comfort curve

(50:53):
and I call it to just being.
We were talking to man, yourwife, you know, last time about,
about, you know, with herbusiness and social media and
yeah, right, and it's like, okay, well, you know, is there
utility to this, you know, foryou?
And while you're trying to pushand if there is all right, well
, get on wherever you're at doyour artist room on the

(51:15):
comfortability curve was puttingthings out?
There?
There is, I mean.
It took me a long time and I'mgenerally like kind of okay with
that and, generally speaking,especially when it came to early
work, where I was like, oh,this might suck, you know, and
who knows, you know, maybeJeremy's going to, you know,
include you in a post and yeah,of course, and it should have

(51:38):
been shared there we go, but itdoes speak to just, you know,
getting more comfortable and inmy mind, that only really comes
from just doing it in repetition.
Yeah, you know you're not goingto stink your way into, you
know, consistent action.
It's making a part of yourroutine, which is what I did in
the beginning, where I wouldjust set up my tripod with my

(51:59):
phone in the corner back of thestudio, hit record and just let
it run, and then, of course,thursdays I'd forget, and then
I'd be like, no, I just missedthe whole two days I forgot I'd
set my phone up but I didn't hitrecord because I got into it.
But then over time it became somuch part of the routine that
I'd just walk in, set it uprecord, didn't even think about

(52:20):
it.
And then it became part of theroutine.
I was like, ooh, I'm going toproduce this a little bit more,
rather than just the one whiteshot.
So then every layer I wouldmove my tripod to a different
location in the studio tocapture different angles of
layers.
And then that became routine,without even thinking I'd go to

(52:41):
grab a tripod, go to grab, youknow, and I would spend quite a
bit of time editing things.
But then all of a sudden thatbecame quick.
Now all those things I can justedit real quick.
And then technology increasedover the years.
Before you could do it all onyour phone and edit it.
And now I can go to my computerand know, use premiere pro, pro

(53:01):
things.
Now I can just do it all on myphone.
And then I really wantedshorter content so it made it
easier.
So, but you can build that intoyour routine because you you
have to do your marketing, youhave to advertise for yourself,
especially before someone'sdoing it for you yes, you have

(53:22):
to clean those things and evenafter someone's doing it for you
, because they're never going tocare about you as much as you.
Yeah, that's another greatquote.
I forget who said it LaurieAnderson, no, it was Julian
Schaum.
You need to control every aspectof your work in the studio and

(53:44):
as it goes, not once it's out.
As it goes, because you're theonly person that knows your work
.
Nobody knows it better than you.
So you have that ability to dothat with your social media at
least.
So bake those things into yourroutine so you can control that
narrative before it's just the.
That ability to do that withyour social media at least.
So bake those things into yourroutine so you can control that
narrative before it's just theaudience of this show.
You know where it's going inthe gallery, how it should be

(54:06):
lit, how it should be with theother pieces.
You can work through thosethings with the curator.
Don't just throw it out to thewolves.
It gonna be whatever you wantwith it.
No, needs to be lit this way.
It needs to be.
You know these are the thingsthat need to happen to show
you're working its best life,but control it now so you really
understand when you have thatconversation with somebody later
.
I hope that was engaging foreverybody, because I know I'm

(54:31):
engaged.
It was fun for us.
It was fun for us.
It was fun for us.
I actually had a new idea whilewe were talking.
You said something and I'mlooking at my work while you
were talking and I went oh, andso I made a note of okay, this,
this, this and these things, andso that I mean that's always

(54:52):
great, I think I don't know.
Go hang out with artists thisweek, find an artist friend, go
spend some time, like we've beendoing since we got here last
night, just talking about workand things.
Do you want to share youraddress?
Yeah, so come on.
No, I will.
My lady, jack, is coming over.
Jack Bauer is coming over nextweek to hang out and look at

(55:12):
work.
A local artist here in Wacojust got a great show at the
Washington Gallery, robbieAustin, another artist friend
from Louisiana.
So it'll be fun next weekHaving a studio visit.
I will come back to that.
I will say this.
Obviously, it just won't belong after I'm gone anyway from

(55:33):
here, but I will say I love thestudio visits, visits.
I've been having more of thoselike, yeah, if you live in the
neapolis area or if you happento be passing by, my studio is
eight minutes from here, or comeon, I'm always excited to hang
out with with people that willlook at our talk.
Whatever studio visits are greatfor a number of reasons.
You're getting to one, you getyour workout and you kind of put

(55:58):
it out for somebody to comelook at.
So you're you're getting to one.
You get your work out and youkind of put it out for somebody
to come look at.
So you're seeing your work alltogether that you haven't really
done that with in a while.
You're getting to watchsomebody look at your work,
which, if you have a show in agallery, you're going to be
watching a lot of people look atyour work and you have no idea
what they're thinking.
So for those of you who arevery introverted, it's a great

(56:20):
confidence builder.
Yeah, even if persons like yourwork, you're used to somebody
looking at it, with you standingthere next to them, which for
some people is not a funexperience, right?
But if you want your work inthe art world, you need to be
ready for those experiences.
So how do you say I'm sayingthis, it's not just me, people
already love you and what you'redoing, yeah, it's maybe, oh, a

(56:41):
lot of people what I'm out.
And what great advice here thatI learned from another artist
early on ask somebody that's inyour studio to ask her a
question.
Yeah, that force you to talkabout things with a hard
question, maybe Because you'renot going to have a lot of

(57:05):
wonderful questions.
It shows that, yeah, I'veliterally had people ask
horrible things.
Yeah, where I'm like did youreally just fucking ask me that?
I want to say that, yeah, yeah,right, but I can't.
Yeah, right, but so just, it'sjust a great experience and
those are low, they reps,absolutely.
It's very different than at anopening or a show, where you're
already nervous and you'realready kind of out of your

(57:26):
comfort zone and then somebodythe MFA student walks in and
wants to show what theirteachers have been teaching them
, not what they know, and thenboom, you know, unfortunately, I
love to play games with, withthose people uh, but anyways,
invite somebody over.
Yeah, have, do a studio visit,invite a couple people over.

(57:47):
Exchange studio visits.
Hey, do, yeah, if you want toset up the camera and just do a
zoom visit with somebody oninstagram that you became
friends with in portugal andyou're in michigan, using jack
verrez examples and do a virtualstudio visit, hang out and talk
about that's it.
That's fun.
Don't make some more.

(58:08):
Don't make some more.
Thank you for joining us fortoday's episode of just make our
podcast.
If you want to see, if you'rejust listening, if you want to
see thais amazing studio andwhat, what the two of us look
like, or whoever has thisconversation, thanks on YouTube,
and join us for the nextepisode, which we may get a
chance to record.
Yeah, see, ya, bye.